Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dungeon Master 10-07-03, 12:36 AM	the great glacier melted almost instantaneously. Large chunks of ice and snow remain, but most of the glacier turns to water and begins flowing south. How many days would the ensuing flood last? How devastating would it be? I'm looking for a fairly scientifically-accurate answer here.
Ka D'Argo 10-07-03, 12:47 AM	If you read the "Return of the Archwizards" Trilogy they actually start melting the High Ice. Which in turn causes some major effects Realms wide, and that isn't anywhere near the scale you are talking about.
Purple Dragon Knight 10-07-03, 01:29 AM	If it would all melt instantaneously and flow specifically south, most of it would get drained in the sands of Anauroc, and the rest would fill it up and form a sea over it (just like it once did). The overflow would continue south and link the Anauroc Sea with the Farsea Marshes, flooding the whole marsh and continuing over the Marsh of Tun, to finally flood Proskur and head east to link with the Dragonmere. Suzail would become a major (a la Waterdeep) port metropolis, located in a strategic access route for inland maritime shipping industries to penetrate the whole Western Heartlands. The Zhents would go nuts for losing their Anauroc trade routes and oasis, and would instead become the major pirate force ruling the waves of Anauroc Sea, preying on ships inbound from Suzail. Through the whole debacle, the Phaerimm, illithid and beholder nations located under Anauroc would perish with a gigantic flood; the Shade Enclave would still float above the waters and present a threat to ships that do not comply with their taxation system. An obvious alliance between the Zhents and the Shades would ensue. The elves of Evereska and Evermeet would cooperate to install sea portals through which Evermeet ships could instantly be teleported at the base of the mountains where Evereska is located. Trade between the two elven nations would flourish and Evereska would be rebuilt ten times greater than it was.
Gadodel 10-07-03, 07:44 AM	"Scientific" answer? hmmm... A flood of that magnitude would be devastating to the ecosystem. The flood would push any survivors southward, causing even more problems. It would likely be be very destructive towards any city north of Waterdeep...north of Arabel...north of The Dalelands.
Morka 10-07-03, 08:14 AM	I think more about a general raise of the level of the sea. Many coastal cities (Waterdeep, Neverwinter, Baldur's Gate, Calimport) would be destroyed, for the great rejoyce of the Talosians. It would probably do the same for the coastal cities of Sea of Fallen Stars (Most cities of Cormyr, Sembia, Impultur, Aglarond, Mulhorand...) Ever think what could happen if the Arctic or Antartic or both suddenly melt? Bye bye Hong Kong, New York, London...
Aurotuli 10-07-03, 09:55 PM	Morka, Note that the arctic ice cap is mostly floating. Little of it is actually on land. Thus it displaces an equal volume and if it all melted the oceans would be raised very little beyond their current hight (perhaps a few meters due to the small amounts of ice on land rather than floating). I don't have my FRCS on me at the moment, but isn't there a sea (or a depression that once was a sea before it froze solid) under much of it? I would think, therefore, that the oceans would not rise more than a few (dozen?) meters. Still a major danger to many coastal cities, but those partially or totally above normal sea level would not have to worry. And the increase in the sea level would be gradual, assuming normal melting processes. Even magical ones would likely take time. (We are talking about cubic miles of ice, after all.) Finally, I can imagine that some (most?) of it would fill the Anauroc depression, creating a vast sea there and further decreasing the likelihood of a major increase in global sea level. A few meters is the most likely - which would impact only those coastal cities that are on relatively flat or depressed land at sea level. Most would simply find a few of its districts partially (and permanently) flooded. I imagine the wealthier ones (Waterdeep, etc) would build dikes and dams to reclaim the flooded lands, although doing so would likely take years.
Adrian Moonbow 10-08-03, 02:51 AM	Weather wise: Hurricanes, tsunamies, rains 'n worse... Talos would indeed have a good time (HE probably would be behind this!:mad: :( :eek: )
Dungeon Master 10-08-03, 06:01 PM	In this situation, the entire glacier melts within, oh, 10 minutes. However, I feel I should add that it does simply become water, there are still huge chunks of ice (about iceberg size) that remain. Not only does it melt, but it does so in such a fashion that it actually is able to cross over the Galena's and into Damara. Specifically, what do you think would happen to the Cold Lands (damara, vaasa, impiltur). For it to rise over the mountains (the lowest parts of the mountains to be sure), it would probably be moving with a lot of force and speed. I'm guessing that any cities would be completely wiped out by the water rushing down from the mountains. How big is the great glacier? Surely not the size of Anarctica?
Aurotuli 10-08-03, 10:18 PM	The Great Glacier (Pelvuria) melts. I'm going to ignore most of what I previously told you as I had assumed (incorrectly at the time) that the High Ice was part of the Great Glacier. Now that I have my FRCS again.... Also, the Great Glacier is smaller than Greenland, so no, it is not the size of Antarctica. Now, if you combine the Great Glacier, the High Ice and all the ice floating in the Great Ice Sea, then perhaps you will have something the size of Antarctica. But not if only the Great Glacier is affected. From what I can see on 2E & 3E maps, the Great Glacier is roughly the size of 3E Anauroch (or about 1/2 to 2/3 the size of 2E Anauroch). Still a large area, but nowhere near the size of a continent, or even Greenland for that matter. --- Suddenly, a vast flood comes from the north! Stretching from Anauroch to the border of the Endless Wastes, flood waters fall upon the northern lands of Faerun - washing away all that stands in their way! Cities fall! Landscapes are ravaged! Rivers flood to become Seas! As the waters rage southward, many lands are affected, ranging from Anauroch to the Endless Wastes, from Vaasa and Damara to the Sea of Fallen Stars. Below each region affected will be described. Eastern Anauroch & the High Ice: Although most of the water surges south, a fair amount of it travels west and east due to being (initially) blocked by the waters already south of it. The western rushes of water cascade into the High Ice and the north eastern border of Anauroch. Some of the High Ice is melted by the warmer waters striking it, but after the waters receed the High Ice will regain some of its lost size from the many ponds and streams left behind. Anauroch will experience a terrible flooding. Being deeper on its eastern side than its western side (the 3E maps seem to show an escarpment-style edge on the eastern border but not on the western border - although this may just be shading and not a true escarpment), a vast but narrow and shallow sea develops, ranging from its most north eastern edge south. I have no idea how far south the sea will roam. It could be no more than the border forest, or it could range all the way south to Far Sea Marshes and the Marsh of Tun - affectively creating a narrow sea from the Dragonmere to the High Ice. If the High Ice also melts (unlikely unless you're also planning for this to occur) than the entire Anauroch desert is now a sea that connects to the Great Ice Sea. Furthermore, it would have narrow seas connecting it to the Sea of Fallen Stars via the Dragonmere. The initial rush of water may even for a time (days, weeks?) wash into the Marsh of Chelimber and the High Moor, before receeding. If they rush that far, then expect the River Chionthar to flood greatly above normal as it helps drain the excess water (via Skull Gorge). Balder's Gate could be in for some hard times as its lowest districts flood. 'Winding Water' and 'River Delimbiyr' will also flood disasterously if the waters flood into the High Moor region. Except for Daggerford on the second river, I don't see a city in danger due to this flooding, however. The Tortured Land & The Ride & Thar & Moonsea & The Dragon Reach & The Vast: The Tortured Land will be totally inundated as the vast flood waters of the western parts of the Great Glacier continue south. From here they will range into Anauroch (see above) and The Ride. The Ride will also be inundated, but I expect only by a few meters. Most of the water is further east or has been guided by mountains into Anauroch. Still, a few meters (10 - 30 ft) is still deep enough to cause significant troubles for any living things in the region. From The Ride the waters will rush into Anauroch (see above) or into Thar. Thar will be terribly inundated, for it is rather awash with water already. What little is above water will soon be under it. Even if the waters do not cover it, they will wash away the ground upon which the structures are built. From Thar the waters rush into the Moonsea, raising it greatly (several meters). It will eventually return (closely to) its original height, but the draining will take several days (weeks?, months?). As the Moonsea rises the waters threaten the northern coasts of Cormanthor, and they swell and overflow into River Duathamper, causing further dangers along its banks well within Cormanthor, and the River Lis, draining into the Dragon Reach - and thus into the Sea of Fallen Stars. In the worst case scenario, the Moonsea and the Dragon Reach combine into a vaster sea. On an aside, the Vast suffers flooding a few meters deep in all coastal and riverside cities, but further inland is safe. Vaasa: Vaasa is worse than inundated. The entire region is placed under dozens of meters of water. All structures are toppled, all topsoil washed away as the waters, having only a narrow pass to escape through, build ever higher and more fierce in the forces they exert upon the land. For days if not weeks the Bloodstone pass gushes water as if a vast (100m + radius) portal to the plane of water had been placed within it, slowing draining the inundated Vaasa. Eventually the waters are mostly gone, leaving a barren rocky waste. Frigid seasons and a lack of soil prevent significant plant growth for centuries to come - until the wind places enough dust and soil upon the land surface for a rather stark tundra style environment to develop. As the waters rush out of the Bloodstone pass they often deposit their collected topsoil and debre, eventually closing off most of the pass and leaving vast shallow lakes covering most of Vaasa - due to having no passage by which to drain. Damara: Damara is saved the fate of Vaasa only because it lacks the mountains necessary to trap the fully rushing headwaters. Much the water that might have doomed Damara instead flows somewhat east and aids in dooming Narfell. Damara suffers a swiftly rushing wave initially dozens of meters high, but falling to only a few meters high by the time it reaches the Eastern Reach. All buildings not made of stone are swept away, and those buildings poorly made of stone are toppled. Most topsoil is swept away in the north, but after the waters receed the south will still be areable. After all, what was swept from the north was deposited in the south. Damara is still in ruins, however, and the only land-based creatures to survive were those in the hills and mountains (particularly in the south, as the waters were many meters higher in the north). The northern most hills are devoid of most forms of life - think of the scene in 'Deep Impact' when the ocean waters swept over the foothills and lowest mountains in the Appalacian mountain range (eastern US) after the asteroid struck the Atlantic Ocean. Impiltur & the Eastern Reach: Impiltur is not as hard hit as Damara. The waters rushing over its lands are only a little higher than the height of an average person (1 m - 3 m), and much of it is draining readily into the Eastern Reach (and thus into the Sea of Fallen Stars). Laviguer (in the northern mts) should be entirely safe, but all of its major settlements are along the coast of the Sea of Fallen Stars, and all will suffer flooding damage to their lowest districts. All along its western edge (along the mountains) the land should be high enough to prevent flood damage from occuring. Ilmwatch is its greatest northern settlement. It will be mostly if not totally destroyed, as all waters draining into the Eastern Reach are likely to strike at or near it. With so little warning, expect heavy casualties - assuming anyone survives. After the waters receed there should be a nice ruins situated there for future adventures to explore. The Sea of Fallen Stars: The entire Sea of Fallen Stars will raise by a meter or two, causing severe flooding in all coastal settlements and all riverside settlements nearest the shore. Note that the excess waters will slowly drain away over the course of many years (likely decades, maybe centuries). All seas connected to it will similarly experience flooding: Dragonmere, Dragon Reach, Eastern Reach, Alamber Sea, Bay of Chessenta, and Vilhon Reach. Narfell & The Great Dale & Thesk & Rashemen: Narfell will be affected as Damara was. Its northern most regions will be struck by a great wave dozens of meters high, but the wave will be only a few meters high once its reaches the Great Dale. Icelace Lake will likely be permanently increased in size due to the heavy erosion created by the vast wash of water. Lake Ashane and Lake Mulsantir will flood by meters, creating difficulties for Rashemen. It is entirely possible that River Sur will flood enough to reach further south, perhaps connecting with the small sea on which Nethentir is situated (unlikely, but distantly possible). The Great Dale will experience flooding much like Impiltur. Unlike Impiltur, only a small portion of it borders the Eastern Reach, and thus only a small portion will experience the devestation of terrific flooding which will scour that region. Most of Rawlinswood will be under a meter or two of water for several days, but the Forest of Lethyr should suffer far less. The northern and western reaches of it will suffer a few feet of excess water for a few days, but most of it should remain unharmed. Thesk will experience worst coastal flooding than most along its coast due to its proximity to the Eastern Reach, but this should receed to normal flood levels of only a meter or two within a few days as the waters receed. (Western) The Northern Country & The Endless Wastes: Some of the flood waters will expand over the western and northern reaches of the Northern Country as flash floods. It is possible that these floods may range as far inland as the Endless Wastes (unlikely, but possible). The regions of the Endless Wastes north of the Icerim Mountains will flood as greatly as Narfell and Damara, but their waters will be directed by the mountains into the Great Ice Sea. Some of this water will rush south from the eastern end of the Icerim Mt range, causing severe flooding (flash floods a few meters deep) between the Icerim Mts and (perhaps as far south as) the Lake of Mists. Overall: expect wetter weather for a time. Such a rush of floodwaters is certain to increase ambiant water vapor for a short time. I would expect increased rainfall for serveral days or weeks after the flood. Note that while this is neither constant nor especially heavy rainfall, it will increase the dangers of flash floods and the degree of damage for several days following the flood. All areas affected by the rushing waters of the melted glacier experience severe erosion. Furthermore, what is removed from the north (topsoil, etc) is deposited further south. After the flooding receeds, for example, Impiltur will likely find its recreated farms to be more firtile for a time due to the new topsoil, etc. This is not a minor event. Something of this magnitude is as significant for the subcontinental region of Faerun as the orc invasion - if not more so. In its own way, this could be a non-divine time of troubles.
Dungeon Master 10-08-03, 11:17 PM	Awesome post! Lots of great ideas and it sounds like it all makes sense...it's too bad that my character has his house in the Bloodstone Pass... :(
Aurotuli 10-08-03, 11:36 PM	Try these two maps. They're 2E, but their very good for getting an idea of the size and shape of the Great Glacier. Warning: both maps are very large, especially the second map! I used the second map when planning the routes the water would take, as I was uncertain as to the accuracy of the scaling of the first (left) map. It seems to expand northern regions in the same way that some maps of the earth expand Greenland to the size of South America. http://myth-drannor.net/DlabraddathNet/z-Dlabraddath/Maproom.htm (http://myth-drannor.net/DlabraddathNet/z-Dlabraddath/Maproom.htm) http://sunsetvale.dfxwebs.com/places01.htm This site also has the two maps.
Aurotuli 10-08-03, 11:48 PM	Just why did the Great Glacier melt? From re-reading about it on page 110 (FRCS), I know that it is the glacier created by the necklace of some ancient deity of ice, etc. Was the removal of this necklace the cause of its sudden melting. If not, I can only imagine that a divine cause, a truly epic spell, or the use of an artifact as powerful as that major artifact necklace of that deity. So, what is the story involved in this? I am hoping that your character was not (knowingly) responsible. I cannot imagine any non-CE being willingly bringing about such vast devestation. On the other hand, if your opponent did this I wish you luck in your quest to defeat him. It should, I imagine, prove to be ... difficult. Also, just as an aside, the mountains you spoke of would not be a hinderance to the melted glacier, for most of it is to the north and east of those mountains. Only a small portion would be affected by those mountains. As such, the force and speed would not need to be so great as to rush over the mountains. (If the force were so great as that, increase the damage I stated above by tenfold, at least!) Too bad about your character's home. Do you have anyway of magically contacting someone there? Even as fast as it melted, it would take time for the flood waters to cross the almost 100 miles of Vaasa - and more time to build up high enough to pass through the mountain pass. Assume you have somewhat less than an hour, at least a quarter to half an hour. For an assumption, assume the water is traveling at 50 to 100 miles per hour. That still means several hours to reach from the Great Glacier to the Sea of Fallen Stars. Warning others could be a possibility. Even at 200 mph the water would take over two hours to reach the Sea of Fallen Stars. Remember also that the further it travels the shallower and slower it travels. Also, I forgot to mention above: Sossal: As it borders the Great Glacier on at least two sides and the Great Ice Sea on another, Sossal will likely be totally destroyed. The rushing mountains of water will sweep all upon the surface of Sossal into the Great Ice Sea. Unless they can survive for days if not weeks in frigid arctic water, no land creature will survive. All plant life will similarly die, as every trace of topsoil and all planted within it is swept into the sea.
knightserpent 10-08-03, 11:58 PM	Those poor under dark races. :weep: Maybe that big fungus thing could soak up some water like a sponge. I wonder how far reaching the flood would be in the underdark. There is less area for a large amount of water to be so it should spread further. Maybe... I don't know.
Aurotuli 10-09-03, 12:25 AM	Imagine a hole a hundred feet wide and a few miles deep. Now imagine a tidal wave a quarter mile high, a 100 miles long, and stretching back for a hundred miles. The pressure of the water behind it will cause most water to go right over the hole. Some, a relatively small amount will spray down the hole, but most will continue onward. Note also, that many of the underdark regions are miles beneath the surface. Flash floods, soon departed to deeper depths, may occur in underdark regions nearest to passages that lead to the surface - assuming the passages are not blocked - either purposefully, so as to hide the passage, or by debre from the raging waters. I can imagine landslides accompanying this flood, landslides which happen to cover any minor passages to the underdark. And how many major passages (100s of feet wide) passages do we ever hear about? I certainly cannot recall any as being in the flooded regions. All in all, the underdark will be little affected, if at all. Of course, if whatever melted the Glacier also happened to open a vast chasm in the land in front of the flooding waters ....
knightserpent 10-09-03, 12:38 AM	I take it that the water reduction over whatever time period might account in some way to seepage? Maybe... Again.. I don't know.
Morka 10-09-03, 09:19 AM	Did you know the Flood was an historical fact? There is references to this not only in the Bible, but in the Inca history. There is some speculation from historian that the mythical Atlantis was destroyed by this flood. There is a theory stating that the last Glaciation ended brutally, and all the Ice Cap that was as south as France and Southern Canada suddenly melt. This might be what caused this Flood.
Dungeon Master 10-09-03, 03:48 PM	Well, the campaign my friend runs is sort of a mix between forgotten realms and dragonlance, so its not a strict FR game. He uses the FR map for the world, but a lot of the history is different. In his game, the glacier was created by AO (i think)...the story is that there were thousands (or more like tens or hundreds of thousands) of demons and angels fighting in that area, sort of a titanic clash between good and evil. AO stepped in and froze them all in a great glacier. The rest of the story is as follows: In the realm of the fey there is a great battle between two sisters, each vying to be queen of the fey. The current queen, Mab, lives within a giant magical tree (sort of a Tree of Life or the Mana Tree if you have played Secret of Mana). The PC's, including me, were working for the other sister and we set out to dethrone Mab. In the process, we figure out that the sister we are working for wouldn't be a good leader of the fey either, and that they had both assassinated the king of the fey...(skipping lots of stuff here)...basically one character ends up becoming the king (and is retired from play), we dethrone Mab, and in the process set off a cataclysm by killing the Tree. So, while no one knew it was gonna happen, it was still our fault. And this flood is just the beginning... we are talking earthquakes, volcanoes, fire raining from the heavens, and of course the melting of the glacier. Also, all the gods are cast down, clerics lose all spellcasting ability, most commit suicide or go insane. All magic that isn't permanent is gone, including wizard spell casting ability. Magic items still work. My character was a 25th level wizard, but now he is just a commoner with a lot of knowledge and high HP, and some magic items. A group of ancient god-like beings called the immortals (heavily based off the tarot deck) appear and start chasing the gods. Essentially, the entire world is shifting to end up looking just like earth. The moonshaes will become the UK, etc... This hasn't happend all quite yet, but is occuring. My character is neutral. He's really upset that he screwed over all wizards and betrayed Mystra. Will probabably wander the world for a while wallowing in pity. He was one of the most powerful wizards and everyone will probably want to kill him now so he might go into hiding. But hey, at least the Red Wizards are in serious trouble :)
Aurotuli 10-10-03, 01:19 AM	An interesting story. Is your DM using the entire map of Toril (including all the unexplored lands shown on page 231), or is he only using Faerun and its surrounding environs? As to the Flood in history and mythology.... The myth of the Flood can be found in numerous forms in nearly every major mythology in the world. Nearly every mythology has some type of disaster that nearly exterminates most/all life. With some it involves fire, with others quakes / etc, with others ice, and with others a Flood. Note, however that some Floods truly are historic. The ancient hebrews added the flood story to the bible at a time around or not long after their babylonian captivity. Note that the babylonians have their own flood story, similar in many ways to the hebrew version of that tale. Note also that the babylonian version can be traced back a few millinia earlier to the formation of much of what is known today as the Black Sea. Once upon a time (around the copper age, IIRC) the black sea region was an excellent farming region arond a relatively small land-locked sea. Then a large section of land, several miles wide, gave way over an unknown but relatively short amount of time (days? weeks? maybe months, at longest). As a result, vast (salty) flood waters rushed into the small fresh water lack, more than doubling its size and killing much of its fresh water ecosystem - not to mention permantently drowning under many meters of water all settlements along its bank. All in a matter of a few years (although flash floods likely took some settlements out in a matter of days if not shorter). Furthermore, the land around the new (salt water) sea was far less fertile than originally. Many fleed south seeking a better life in farmlands traded with in that direction (this was well before any major (or even significant minor) civilization formed in the fertile crescent. Thus was the nature of the historic flood. Incidentally, National Geographic did a report on this flooding a few years ago, including topological maps showing how the differences in depth can show the old form of the black sea. I can't remember the issue number at the moment, but I'll see if I can look it up this weekend at the library. As for the apocalyptic story line, I'm curious where this is going. Will the DM next decide to do a d20 modern game involving archeologists in the far future learning of this past? Or perhaps a quest can be inacted to bring about the restoration of magic. As the deities seem to be much lessened by the loss of magic, I can see them aiding such an endevour.
Aurotuli 10-10-03, 10:41 PM	http://www.nationalgeographic.com/blacksea/ax/frame.html