Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Klyden 11-08-05, 03:42 PM	Where we all cheated by Champions of Valor? Did anyone at all like the book? I gotta say I didn't. I just skimmed through it at a Waldens bookstore and it didn't have ANY MATERIAL I was hoping for. The Agents of Good was the REAL LET DOWN I gotta say. I was hoping for high level priests, paladins, or celestial agents of Tyr, Lathanader, Torm, Selune, Ilmater, and others. Instead the highest level character we get is 13th Lv? Come on WotC! You can do better than this! Do you plan on letting evil win in FR? What about the the Srinshee, Gareth Dragonsbane, or some Chosens of Good Aligned Deities? We didn't even get any new good aligned angels, archons, eladrin, or guardinals!
Yokinobu 11-08-05, 03:55 PM	I wouldn't rock the boat too hard. Many of us were dissappointed, but if you go to Candlekeep, you'll see that alot of them were satisfied with it. A thread with a title like that is insensitive to the authors, and spelling "Were" wrong doesn't help convince people of the credibility of your claim. ;)
BrianCritchley 11-08-05, 04:23 PM	the thing is that they designed the book for whats needed. the thing is the bad guys needed to be powerful ultimate villans for the PCs to fight, the good NPCs need to be useful allies. and useful allies can't be TOO powerful
Brenigin 11-08-05, 04:25 PM	Not having a host of statted out, high level NPCs is fine with me. It fits the WotC philosophy that "the PCs are the heroes"; and assuming you are using CoV in a "valorous" campaign, you don't need the powerful good guys statted out - you won't be going head to head with them. By contrast, Champions of Ruin had stats foe Eltab, Malkizid etc in case a DM wants to use them as the ultimate BBEG of a campaign. Like Yokinobu said, plenty of folk are very, very happy with the book. And if you have criticisms, it might help to explain them in a thought out way and address specific issues you have. Throwing out angry generalisations at the authors is one of the reasons we don't have a FR Novels forum here any more...
BobROE 11-08-05, 05:49 PM	I think there are too many NPCs in the book. The pages could have been used for other things.
ksu_bond 11-08-05, 06:20 PM	Personally I found the book to be great...full of useful lore and additonal power groups that PCs or their allies can be associated with, along with the corresponding feats and PrC's. I especially loved the new Selune info, though it was only a mere insignificant portion of the book, that info alone was worth it for me.
Kid SixXx 11-08-05, 06:24 PM	Do you plan on letting evil win in FR? What are the PC's doing? Drinking at the tavern? Seriously though, as much as folks on these boards seem to complain about the FR uber-munchkins (I see at least one "How Can I Kill Elminster?" thread a month), does the setting really need another statblock of super-powered NPC good guys? I agree with Brenigin. The PC's should ultimately be the Champions of Valor.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-08-05, 10:02 PM	We didn't even get any new good aligned angels, archons, eladrin, or guardinals! *shrug* The most powerful celestials from the BoED would be the same ones for an FR game, regardless of if you use the Great Wheel or the retcon 3e cosmology. And, as others have said, too many NPCs in the book might have overshadowed the effects of the PCs, which was what the book was designed to work with anyway.
warlockco 11-08-05, 10:02 PM	I liked CoV alot more than CoR. CoV is what CoR should have been. And it hurts alot to say that, since Eric worked on CoR.
GothicDan 11-08-05, 10:04 PM	I'm tired of seeing "new and k3wl and l33t" planar Exemplars. Just leave the Balors, Pit Fiends, and Solars alone, eh?
ericlboyd 11-08-05, 10:40 PM	I liked CoV alot more than CoR. CoV is what CoR should have been. And it hurts alot to say that, since Eric worked on CoR. Why? I wrote sixteen pages of both books. I have no idea why I got author credit on one and not the other. In Champions of Ruin, I wrote up Aumvor, Eltab, Soneillion, and corresponding magic, spells, and monsters for those 3 NPCs. No idea what made the cut that I wrote for Champions of Valor, although the Triadic Knight and the Equine breeds (with Tom) were mine. --Eric
Oghmanyte 11-08-05, 10:52 PM	the Equine breeds (with Tom) were mine. I loved the equine breeds. The equine breeds section may have been my favorite part of CoV. Kudos.
BrianCritchley 11-09-05, 01:42 AM	the Equine breeds where a nice touch, gives a bit more depth to the realms
warlockco 11-09-05, 02:00 AM	Why? I wrote sixteen pages of both books. I have no idea why I got author credit on one and not the other. In Champions of Ruin, I wrote up Aumvor, Eltab, Soneillion, and corresponding magic, spells, and monsters for those 3 NPCs. No idea what made the cut that I wrote for Champions of Valor, although the Triadic Knight and the Equine breeds (with Tom) were mine. --Eric Ah, you worked on CoV? I feel much better now. As to my comment regarding CoR, without knowing who did what, there were certain parts that just didn't "mesh" well for me I guess one could say. I guess we just tend put too much pressure on you for great stuff is all. I know myself and alot of others, if we see a book with your name or Ed's on it, we tend to expect great things of it.
Silverpanther 11-09-05, 04:02 AM	stated npcs? why :D they can only give me inspiration for my own villains (i run my campaigns till lv 60 ;)) the main reason why i get the supplement are the PRESTIGE CLASSES :dancin: (even more important then the lore and the background ;)) and i can`t wait to get LEoF, CoR and CoV to be SHIPPED OVER HERE :drool: would you say the prestige classes in this books rock?
Kid SixXx 11-09-05, 05:10 AM	A thread with a title like that is insensitive to the authors, and spelling "Were" wrong doesn't help convince people of the credibility of your claim. ;) Let's make sure that Klyden's native language is English before we pull out our grammar books, shall we? ;)
SCMrks 11-09-05, 09:51 AM	I like the book a lot but was disappointed that there is so much on Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater but almost nothing on Lathander. And there is a feat and substitution levels for a ranger of magic that follows Mystra but nothing for rangers of the forest who follow Mielikki. In the campaign sourcebook Mystra is not even listed as a nature diety Rangers can follow. And rangers are mentioned as being apart of some knightly orders as scouts but what about ranger lodges?
BrianCritchley 11-09-05, 08:51 PM	I like the book a lot but was disappointed that there is so much on Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater but almost nothing on Lathander. And there is a feat and substitution levels for a ranger of magic that follows Mystra but nothing for rangers of the forest who follow Mielikki. In the campaign sourcebook Mystra is not even listed as a nature diety Rangers can follow. And rangers are mentioned as being apart of some knightly orders as scouts but what about ranger lodges? why does Meiliki NEED subsitution levels? the stock ranger I'd say reflects her well eneugh
Yokinobu 11-09-05, 10:05 PM	why does Meiliki NEED subsitution levels? the stock ranger I'd say reflects her well eneugh Why does Torm need paladin substitution levels?
warlockco 11-10-05, 03:17 AM	Why does Torm need paladin substitution levels? Its one of his Knightly Orders that has them, not his Paladins in general. All the Paladin Subsitution Levels are for various Knightly Orders, not the Paladins of the Gods themselves.
Yokinobu 11-10-05, 08:13 AM	Its one of his Knightly Orders that has them, not his Paladins in general. All the Paladin Subsitution Levels are for various Knightly Orders, not the Paladins of the Gods themselves. I realize that, but aren't the rangers with substitution levels part of specific lodges as well?
ksu_bond 11-10-05, 08:26 AM	I understand what he's saying...he's wondering why CoV did not include substitution levels for lets say... the White Elk Lodge of rangers....but as far as I know WotC has not yet introduced ranger lodges into 3/3.5E yet. So that could be why they didn't include substitution levels in this case. Though I agree I would LOVE to see some organized ranger lodges along with bladesinger lodges (mentioned in another thread).
Yokinobu 11-10-05, 12:02 PM	I understand what he's saying...he's wondering why CoV did not include substitution levels for lets say... the White Elk Lodge of rangers....but as far as I know WotC has not yet introduced ranger lodges into 3/3.5E yet. So that could be why they didn't include substitution levels in this case. Though I agree I would LOVE to see some organized ranger lodges along with bladesinger lodges (mentioned in another thread). Well, the point I was really trying to make was this... SCMrks made the good point that rangers of the forest that follow Mielikki were not given substitution levels in CoV. Brian asked why Mielikki would need substitution levels(he was obviously referring to her ranger followers), when the stock ranger reflects her well enough. That's when I made the point that, in that case, you could say that the stock paladin reflects Torm well enough(I used the same format referring to the deity like Brian did instead of the Knightly Order that follows Torm, but I meant the same thing...warlockco didn't seem to catch on), and yet there were substitution levels for Knightly Orders that worshipped him. Basically, there are far less deserving orders of certain classes that worship certain deities(like rangers that worship Mystra) that have substitution levels, while Mielikki's rangers followers had nothing. Sheesh.
warlockco 11-10-05, 05:41 PM	What powers would you suggest for a Mielikki Ranger then? The Order of the Shooting Star (Mystra's Rangers) are hunters of outsiders, aberrations, and magical beasts mainly by going with the flavor text. So improved spellcasting ability would be a major boon to them. Rangers of the Order of the Shooting Star serve Mystra by scouting, spying, and dealing wtih fiends and monstrosities created by magical experimentation. Just like the Knights of the Shadow Sword (Shaundakul's Rangers), are specialized for patrolling Myth Drannor and keeping an eye portals there and trying to contain/rid the place of evil. The Order of the Lion (Torm's Paladins) which is the one that I believe you are referring to as to my does Torm has a Subsitution Level for a paladin, they are not your standard run of the mill paladins. If you look at their powers, they are to restore the weave, fight the Zhentarim, Churches of Bane and Cyric. These are Paladins of Penance, they are to strengthen the ties of Torm with the other non-evil churches (especially good ones). So in other words they are an Order of Public Relations for Torm ;) .
Zandilar 11-10-05, 05:44 PM	Heya, Basically, there are far less deserving orders of certain classes that worship certain deities(like rangers that worship Mystra) that have substitution levels, while Mielikki's rangers followers had nothing. Sheesh. Why is a Mystran ranger less deserving?
BrianCritchley 11-10-05, 05:53 PM	honestly, my first reaction to seeing the subsitution classes was that they have basicly provided us with a bridge between PRCs and the old "kits" of 2E.
warlockco 11-10-05, 05:55 PM	honestly, my first reaction to seeing the subsitution classes was that they have basicly provided us with a bridge between PRCs and the old "kits" of 2E. Quite right, now that you mention it.
Yokinobu 11-11-05, 12:09 AM	Heya, Why is a Mystran ranger less deserving? Uh, because Mystra is the goddess of magic, and Mielikki is the patron of rangers. Notice I said LESS. Most of Mystra's followers are clerics or arcane spellcasters, and rangers are neither(though I heard something about a rule that they could be thanks to CoV.) Anyway, as Mielikki's portfolio includes rangers, and thus she is the patron deity of rangers, we can assume that rangers follow her more than any other deity. Therefore, since she has more rangers under her wing, there is a greatly increased chance that there would be a lodge established that follows her that is a little different from the rest. More followers, greater likelihood. What would be different from your average ranger? Well, normal rangers, thanks to 3.0/3.5, can be of any alignment. A ranger following her would undoubtedly involve abilities that furthered the cause of good, protecting the innocent, tracking evil despoilers of the forest, or furthering her agenda(sorry, I don't have Faiths and Pantheons handy), just like other orders that grant substitution levels do with other characters.
BrianCritchley 11-11-05, 01:45 AM	on the other hand as the patron deity of rangers one could assume that the stock ranger sums up her rangers approuch to things exactly. which seems to be the case that the writers used.
Yokinobu 11-11-05, 01:59 AM	And one could assume the stock paladin sums up Torm's paladins approach to things exactly.
BrianCritchley 11-11-05, 02:25 AM	And one could assume the stock paladin sums up Torm's paladins approach to things exactly. sure and most paladin orders do, however these paladins are.. differnt. just shrug and wait for the next book. if the writers realize these subsittion classes are popular I'm sure we'll see more
warlockco 11-11-05, 03:57 AM	And one could assume the stock paladin sums up Torm's paladins approach to things exactly. Which they do, except that the Subsitution Levels for one of his orders is for an Order that from the looks of things is out there as Public Relations for him, to help improve his image. Helm should take a look at that ideal :D
BrianCritchley 11-11-05, 04:40 AM	the Vigilent Eyes of Helm sound rather like that's what they be doing
warlockco 11-11-05, 05:24 AM	Just found an Error in CoV that I figured would have been stamped out by now. One of the new regions, Secret Moondancer, has Daylight Adapation listed as a Regional feat, but Daylight Adapation was corrected as a General feat in Errata for the PGtF.
Yokinobu 11-11-05, 06:50 AM	Yeah, I saw that at Candlekeep. ;)
White_Wizard 11-11-05, 08:51 AM	What are the PC's doing? Drinking at the tavern? Of course they are! Does even exist something they like more than this? :P Seriously though, as much as folks on these boards seem to complain about the FR uber-munchkins (I see at least one "How Can I Kill Elminster?" thread a month), does the setting really need another statblock of super-powered NPC good guys? I totally agree with this. NPCs have that 'N' for a reason, don't they? ;) PCs are the ultimate heroes. It's up to them to beat up the villains stated in CoR. It really sucks when the uberNPC steps in, throws some heal or resirrection and then goes for the big bad and wins. This is a game that is fun only if played in group. If PCs were up to hear some good story they would have bought a book. Uber NPCs are always mistakes, so it would be a non-sense (imho) to make a book with over powerful, epic level PCs that can solve every problem with a minimal effort. The world of the game has it's own heroes, even strong heroes, but the important thing is that they will ALWAYS need the PCs to beat the uprising evil.
warlockco 11-11-05, 11:26 PM	Yeah, I saw that at Candlekeep. ;) Yeah, but not everyone here goes to the Keep.
Yokinobu 11-11-05, 11:48 PM	Yeah, but not everyone here goes to the Keep. *Sigh* I was just saying I saw that there, just making an observation. I wasn't implying that you were posting a redundancy. Sheesh.
warlockco 11-12-05, 03:44 AM	*Sigh* I was just saying I saw that there, just making an observation. I wasn't implying that you were posting a redundancy. Sheesh. Sorry was a bit doped up on painkillers, chronic migraines :(
Demetrios 11-12-05, 02:15 PM	Hmmm, as this is the main CoV thread here, perhaps someone should change its title to something more neutral ("Opinions on Champions of Valor" perhaps)? I was thinking about starting a new thread on CoV, but it would probably end up merged with this one... And no, I didn't feel cheated by CoV. I thought the subsitution levels and regional feats were very interesting. I was fascinated by the idea of the creation of the "Holy Realm" (the western Realms doesn't quite have anything like its benign theocracy), and enjoyed reading the interesting bits of lore about places such as Nimbral and Impitur. The lists and descriptions of valorous organizations and Realms equines will be useful for many upcoming campaigns. Although, as some have pointed out, organizations and individuals associated with the Triad, Mystra, and Selune do get a lot of coverage, it's not like the other gods are really neglected - overlooked halfling, dwarf, and gnome gods all get their share of the spotlight, for instance. It's rare to see much on deities like Arvoreen or Berronar, and CoV has some interesting things to say about their worshipers. As a person who likes to play dwarven battle clerics, having the holiest shrine to Clanggeddin mapped out and described is just icing on the cake! :D
Darth_Azalin 11-14-05, 06:47 AM	I actually thought the feats like Flay foe and the other weapon types made Champions of Ruin great and worth the money... I haven't found the same thing in Valor... Just like Magic of Incarnum and Heroes of Horror not that much that could be used in most campaigns.
warlockco 11-14-05, 07:24 AM	Just like Magic of Incarnum and Heroes of Horror not that much that could be used in most campaigns. Have seen no reason to pick up those two books at all, especially Incarnum.
Yokinobu 11-14-05, 09:29 AM	Sorry was a bit doped up on painkillers, chronic migraines :( I'm sorry to hear that. I wish I could say, "I wish I knew how you felt."
Razz 11-14-05, 01:15 PM	I agree with the original poster about the NPCs. I don't like them nor care much for them. I can make my own. The pages could've been spent on more PrC (a heck of a lot more than FOUR!), spells, feats, orders, celestials, the mising Good Nodes, and powerful NPC creature sof pure, reeking goodness in contrast to the big baddies of CoR. Yes, I hear it everywhere I go: "The PCs are supposed to be the heroes! I'm glad there's no CR 20+". Sorry, but, the PCs are supposed to be great heroes, not uber-near dieties that smash evil with a single thought (leave that to an Epic Level Campaign) and are definitely not everywhere at once when some great vile being threatens all of Faerun or Toril for the umpteenth time. There has to be others, not including Elminster, Khelben, and the 7 Sisters. Besides, when I did run it that way, my players got a little edgy with me stating "Why're we always doing this stuff? When're we going to meet someone stronger than us that handles these affairs? Can my PC ever take a break or something?" and etc. etc. Maybe it's just my players and I, but we enjoy seeing good power-beings. We watch a lot of anime. My players would enjoy watching Artemis Entreri duke it out with a reknowned powerful good character (other than Drizzt) or see a battle between Grazz't and the 5th Tome Archon, Raziel, as much as be a part of it. And for those of you talking about cohorts, allies, contacts for the PCs? Well, what better ally than some CR 30+ celestial being or NPC? Those are, at least, who my players turn to. They laugh when some 6th-level Ranger of some minor organization offers help. "Sorry," they say,"What we're doing requires someone to cast Channel Celestial Paragon on each of us. Take care!" (No, they don't metagame talk, just proving a point is all). The conclusive issue is with powerful PCs, I am very sure they're going to need a much more powerful sponsor. But that's only my campaign, we like to run a very cinematic, heavy story-telling, DBZ powerful magic and psionic effects, and anime-like villains and heroes type FR campaign. And WotC is looking to make money so what I say here is moot and they're just going to put out what the majority wants. Personally, I wish they went back to putting out what the minority wants as Web Enhancements on their website like they used to. But they give us crappy adventures everytime. :rolleyes: I was also disappointed with the lack of presentation for Good Nodes. Where'd they go? I thought they were supposed to be in the book? I hope the WE has them. In all, I like the book, it's useful, but it was "lacking" in some areas. It's weird how some books that are 160 pages should really be 190 or 220. Eh, IMHO, all the books should've had more pages worth of more material. I'd pay for it. :cool:
White_Wizard 11-14-05, 02:22 PM	I agree with the original poster about the NPCs. I don't like them nor care much for them. I can make my own. The pages could've been spent on more PrC (a heck of a lot more than FOUR!), spells, feats, orders, celestials, the mising Good Nodes, and powerful NPC creature sof pure, reeking goodness in contrast to the big baddies of CoR. Yes, I hear it everywhere I go: "The PCs are supposed to be the heroes! I'm glad there's no CR 20+". Sorry, but, the PCs are supposed to be great heroes, not uber-near dieties that smash evil with a single thought (leave that to an Epic Level Campaign) and are definitely not everywhere at once when some great vile being threatens all of Faerun or Toril for the umpteenth time. There has to be others, not including Elminster, Khelben, and the 7 Sisters. Besides, when I did run it that way, my players got a little edgy with me stating "Why're we always doing this stuff? When're we going to meet someone stronger than us that handles these affairs? Can my PC ever take a break or something?" and etc. etc. Maybe it's just my players and I, but we enjoy seeing good power-beings. We watch a lot of anime. My players would enjoy watching Artemis Entreri duke it out with a reknowned powerful good character (other than Drizzt) or see a battle between Grazz't and the 5th Tome Archon, Raziel, as much as be a part of it. And for those of you talking about cohorts, allies, contacts for the PCs? Well, what better ally than some CR 30+ celestial being or NPC? Those are, at least, who my players turn to. They laugh when some 6th-level Ranger of some minor organization offers help. "Sorry," they say,"What we're doing requires someone to cast Channel Celestial Paragon on each of us. Take care!" (No, they don't metagame talk, just proving a point is all). The conclusive issue is with powerful PCs, I am very sure they're going to need a much more powerful sponsor. But that's only my campaign, we like to run a very cinematic, heavy story-telling, DBZ powerful magic and psionic effects, and anime-like villains and heroes type FR campaign. And WotC is looking to make money so what I say here is moot and they're just going to put out what the majority wants. Personally, I wish they went back to putting out what the minority wants as Web Enhancements on their website like they used to. But they give us crappy adventures everytime. :rolleyes: I was also disappointed with the lack of presentation for Good Nodes. Where'd they go? I thought they were supposed to be in the book? I hope the WE has them. In all, I like the book, it's useful, but it was "lacking" in some areas. It's weird how some books that are 160 pages should really be 190 or 220. Eh, IMHO, all the books should've had more pages worth of more material. I'd pay for it. :cool: Well, I must say that my players used to ask around "Why us? Why should we heroes of 1st level go for this mission while there is plenty of higher level people that can do this much better?" And then I understood that the problem with cool, high level allies is that the PCs loose the input in doing what is the right thing. A high level NPC has to be put in the game very carefully (for example: the 8th level NPC Paladin cannot pursue the orc raiders because he is the lord of the small town and his primary duty is to take care about those who were injured during the battle, so the 1st level PCs are the only avaliable for the issue). Now my players ask such questions no more: they know that they are not the most powerful heroes of the world, but they have learned that they are part of a story that has them as main characters. It is up to them to gain success where even greater heroes than them fail. Or maybe the great hero helps them a little (like Khelben helping Drizzt and Wulfgar finding a ship to Baldur's Gate). The campaign's world is huge, and that's even more true for the Forgotten Realms, which are one of the most detailed fantasy world ever. But even if this world is full of noble and powerful heroes, the true heroes are the PC: if it is a NPC to do the great job, all the point of playing D&D crumbles to dust.
Yokinobu 11-14-05, 04:25 PM	I think the problem with the argument that there shouldn't be so many high-level good NPC's is the assumption that they would be allies to the PC's and/or further the PC's goals. Looking at it from an evil perspective, they are a great nemesis for evil PC's to topple. Assuming there is a balance in Toril of good and evil, it would only make since that there be as many powerful good beings in the world as there are evil beings. This also helps the theory that there are as many bad adventurers as there are good adventurers. In the PHB, it states that humans lean toward no particular alignment, and they are the most numerous race on Toril(the playable demi-human races in the PHB tend toward good, but two of those include an evil sub-race and their are easily enough evil humanoids in Faerun besides). Therefore, statistically(although not in reality), there are as many evil PC's as good ones, and with a relative number of epic evil PC's comes the need for epic good adversaries. I wouldn't ask for a list of powerful well-known characters equal to that in CoR. But I would have appreciated an attempt to integrate at least a few powerful good characters that are known in the Realms, not only a bunch of NPC's I have never heard of.
GothicDan 11-14-05, 05:17 PM	Assuming there is a balance in Toril of good and evil, it would only make since that there be as many powerful good beings in the world as there are evil beings. Here's the key flaw in the argument, I think. The assumption that this fact is true is wrong; FR has always been a world where there have been hordes of uber-powerful evil monsters/NPCs. For every Elminster (who people like to complain so much about), there's 4 Shoons. It's the fact that the less powerful Good/Neutrals band together (in establishments such as the Harpers, and that's why the good Pantheon Heads are often on good terms with all of the other good Pantheon Heads, and the like) that allows them to defeat the more-numerous, but innately fractitious evil powers lurking. That's what most people don't see in FR - at least, not for those who came to the game without any knowledge of it prior to the 3E material.
BrianCritchley 11-14-05, 06:42 PM	That's what most people don't see in FR - at least, not for those who came to the game without any knowledge of it prior to the 3E material don't blame 3E for this dude. I've seen plenty of people who are obviously old timers make this mistake and I came in with 3E and understood this concept immediatly. that being said it makes FR as of 1372 particularily in need of heros. evil is slowly cohesing and good is splintering.
Darth_Azalin 11-15-05, 11:24 AM	I actually like playing my NE Fighter/Thief or my Honorable LE Minotaur (Krynn style) Fighter more so then my Paladin. Have the ability to do wrong and for a lack of a better word "evil" is intoxicating. And when someone asks for your help or something like doing the right thing or being a hero you can simply reply "How much does it pay?"... And with alignment most people in the world would be NE. Which is basically taking care of #1 (yourself).
SCMrks 11-15-05, 11:26 AM	I've been reading more of the book during this past week and still like most of it. My disappointment grows for the lack of options for followers of Lathander. They just seem so fit to have a valorous organization. I know the Waterdeep book has some information on the Knights of Aster but I was hoping for more about their activities outside of Waterdeep. And Lathander seems to be a popular enough deity that a lot of players could have gotten use of information about his followers. I know there is information out for clerics of Lathander. The Morning Lord is a good prestige class for clerics but not so much for the paladins. And the Waterdeep book indicates that the Knights of Aster even has rangers. And most Initiate feats can be taken by clerics and paladins of the faith, some of them even allow rangers, but Lathander's initiate feat can only be used by his clerics. So I was hoping to see substitution levels, feats, or a prestige class for these heroes. Lathander is one of the more popular deities with my players. In my campaigns atleast one player has always picked him.
Zanan 11-16-05, 11:27 AM	Just a few points ... can't say I dislike the book, though it won't be one of my favourites. Substitution levels are a fine way to get more flair into ordinary classes, though I have the feeling that they will appear in tons now, specialized for regions, orders, guilds, faiths and all. Speaking of the latter, I wonder how the initiate feats are selected. There are surely more important FR religions in need of such feats than Anhur, Milil or Horus-Re? I'll also take my time before accepting the new (miniature book? - ) styled stat blocks, even though the old ones didn't make it easy to get important figures at first glance. Lots of flair and fluff in there, so exactly what a sourcebook should give. Will not sate everyone's hunger, but hardly any book does. Maybe the titles (e.g. PGtF) are sometimes a bit misleading.
Katowice 11-16-05, 11:43 AM	How would you write-up substitute levels in an official D&D character stat block? None of the NPC's in the book seem to have them.
GothicDan 11-16-05, 12:45 PM	don't blame 3E for this dude. I've seen plenty of people who are obviously old timers make this mistake and I came in with 3E and understood this concept immediatly. I believe that you are an exception rather than a rule as far as this goes. The majority of the old players who are really into learning about the Realms - as in, besides what was printed in the books - understand the nature of Evil in the Realms.
GothicDan 11-16-05, 12:51 PM	Darth: And with alignment most people in the world would be NE. Which is basically taking care of #1 (yourself). This, simply put, is false, biologically and psychologically. We evolved to be communal creatures, and so our brains are programmed to consider the well-being of others who are close to us. This is because, biologically speaking, our tribe/family's well-being directly affects ours; hence, the vast majority of people (barring sociopaths and the like) feel a certain amount of empathy. Mind you, this does not mean that outside of our "tribe" that people are programmed as a whole to empathize with everyone. I don't agree with this at all, and this is why I don't understand the philosophy of humanitarianism. Biologically-speaking, from an evolutionary standpoint, taking care of #1 extends to taking care of those who directly affect your life. So, I would say that most people tend towards NG, while they tend more towards TN (or even NE) in regards to those outside of their nuclear "tribe."
Yokinobu 11-16-05, 01:04 PM	By the way can anyone that has the book give me a quick overview of what the substitution levels for Phoenix Disciple and Broken One or give your opinion on the quality of the substitution? What about the worthiness of the Carmendine Monk and Sun Soul Monk feats? That's all I'm asking, it doesn't have to be anything too descriptive. The book still hasn't arrived at my B&N and I'm dying to know what it has to offer to my favorite class.
Dargoth 11-16-05, 04:49 PM	How would you write-up substitute levels in an official D&D character stat block? None of the NPC's in the book seem to have them. Id say you'd state them like they do for a PrC ability, you could always check CoV and see if any of the NPCs have the Sub Levels
Tygs 11-16-05, 08:31 PM	What upset me the most is it states that current time in the Realms is 1374...What happened the past two years? I can't find out...
warlockco 11-17-05, 02:39 AM	What upset me the most is it states that current time in the Realms is 1374...What happened the past two years? I can't find out... Blame the Novels. They are the things that tends to advance the time in the Realms.
Zanan 11-17-05, 04:39 AM	Blame the Novels. They are the things that tends to advance the time in the Realms. Probably so. WotSQ and Last Mythal are written over such a long span of time that they by-pass a few sourcebooks along the way. I'd rather have an independent timeline as a web-product, much like the one over at Candlekeep which keeps us bang up to date*. I would assume that 1374 has just begun and the WotSQ ended in mid-1373. *Of course, the timeline there covers all of Faerûn's history and isn't updated on a weekly or monthly basis. This could be done with a shorter, yearly timeline here though, detailing events in say 1371, 1372, 1373, and 1374. You would have a PC timeline with stuff all people know and some rumours (such as given in the Old Grey Box), and a DM timeline spilling a few more beans about events covered in sourcebooks. Novels (and spoilers of them) could be partly ex-/included here, at the Wizards' authors' and designers' discretion. But it would allow a more dynamic spilling of info than the sourcebooks (which do not always include timelines anyways).
Darth_Azalin 11-17-05, 04:48 AM	Have to bring back the old poor wizards almanacs... and then adapt them to Realms timelines... But of course they would have to be a year behind since you dont want to give away any plot ideas of future novels or sourcebooks...
Tygs 11-17-05, 02:07 PM	They could post updates as new sourcebooks come out. Sourcebooks are written and hyped months before actual release, so releasing a "Important Events since last Sourcebooks" would be simple. I don't need fancy fonts or pretty graphics, just hard 'facts'. I don't have the time nor, more importantly, the money to buy and read the novels.
Elessara 11-18-05, 10:17 AM	I was disappointed in this book in that so many of the organizations (and associated feats of course) were paladin only. I have a cleric/warpriest of Tyr - just because she's a cleric doesn't mean she's not a champion of valor. I suppose if I really really wanted to I could multi-class her into paladin, but that would require an alignment change as she is currently Neutral Good. I just fail to see why clerics (particularly clerics of more martial deities like Tyr or Torm) should be excluded from these orders. I know they're knightly orders, but is there a rule somewhere saying that clerics can't be knighted? Especially, as I said, clerics of martial deities. Ele~
Yokinobu 11-19-05, 06:36 PM	By the way can anyone that has the book give me a quick overview of what the substitution levels for Phoenix Disciple and Broken One or give your opinion on the quality of the substitution? What about the worthiness of the Carmendine Monk and Sun Soul Monk feats? That's all I'm asking, it doesn't have to be anything too descriptive. The book still hasn't arrived at my B&N and I'm dying to know what it has to offer to my favorite class. Nevermind, I finally found a copy. Nobody was helping anyway. I liked what I found mostly. I found several things that could have been better though. Broken One's sacrfice doesn't seem that helpful, penalizing a character not only with taking the hit, but with fatigue. I would only take this feat if a DM mentioned a decent dose of roleplaying XP for using it. Not that I couldn't see myself using the feat normally if I had it, I just couldn't see myself TAKING the feat when there are many better ones to be had. The rest of the feats were good or alright as I remember, but I have a problem with having to take a feat to gain fringe benefits. In a game where characters starve for feat slots and the options are widening more and more and making the decisions harder, now a feat has to be taken to gain a benefit that should be granted after going through the trouble of trying to get into the organization. This is why I use a houserule in games I DM of a character gaining an extra feat at first level and gaining one every two levels thereafter instead of every three. The Triadic Knight could have been alot better, a detour from the paladin base class sacrifices two spell levels, undead turning advancement, lay on hands advancement, and extra remove diseases per week for eye protection, no more upset stomach, 3 spell-like abilities usable once per day, and an ability that further concentrates smiteage. I never understood how gaining a spell-like ability once per day was supposed to be anything near significant as a class ability, unless it was a very high level power. Plus you have to take a feat that would not regularly be a choice of mine for most characters. In retrospect, it's not that bad, just could have been better without being overpowered. The Knight of the Flying Hunt could have offered a little more as well, it has three whole levels that give nothing, and most of what it offers will lose effectiveness with higher levels(pegasus doesn't grow stronger, armor tops out). I think it would have been awesome if it was crammed into 7 levels like the Triadic Knight instead of 10. The substitution levels for the most part were good, except for a few disappointments. The Broken One's 7th level susbtitution was NOT worth it(in fact some of the other sub lev's for Ilmater are worth anything only there are abundant Loviatar followers). The Shadow Sword's first sub level is horrible, granting +5 Move Silently for one round(half ranger level per day) in sacrifice for endurance. Using Sean's idea that a feat equals a feat, Skill Focus: Move Silently would be much better, granting +3 all day every day, and even that I wouldn't trade for Endurance. I didn't notice any other unfair trades, but there might have been some there. I really liked the fluff, the NPC write-ups were good, so was PrC background info, info on valorous organizations, and the maps. I haven't looked at the weapons or spells much, but I thought the artwork was fantastic. In all honesty though, my MAIN motivation for buying the book was for the crunch, and my problem with some of that is what brought down the rating I gave it. But the book was still good, I think.
Xaean 11-20-05, 08:52 AM	While I would certainly have enjoyed seeing the stats of some more powerful NPC heroes like e.g. Quilue Veladorn, Dove Falconhand, King Gareth Dragonsbane or the Iron Lord of Rashemen, I still like the book as it is. The idea that the PCs should be the Champions of Valor makes perfect sense, no matter how interessting some NPCs might be. And as far as the options for PC heroes go, Champions of Valor is quite fine. I really like the fact that paladins of different deities have differnt abilities now - a paladin of Sune is certainly not the same as a paladin of Kelemvor. I truely missed such differences before. Similar is true for the initiate feats which help clerics better fit into the portfolios of their deities. Unfortunately I have to admit that other classes were left out to a certain decree, but as paladins are the archetypical Champions of Valor I still think it's OK the give them a disproportionate amount of space. I also like the part about the regional backgrounds which helps forming a character's story. The organizations make some good allies, employers or enemies, whichever you prefer.
Waylander 11-24-05, 10:41 AM	Why? I wrote sixteen pages of both books. I have no idea why I got author credit on one and not the other. In Champions of Ruin, I wrote up Aumvor, Eltab, Soneillion, and corresponding magic, spells, and monsters for those 3 NPCs. No idea what made the cut that I wrote for Champions of Valor, although the Triadic Knight and the Equine breeds (with Tom) were mine. --Eric Once again it comes out to be crunch vs fluff. I like a little fluff with my crunch.. other people might be like me or like a little crunch with their fluff. I don't know where the majority of FR players stand. These board is definitely not a true representative sample of the total people out there who buy the books... Here is my personal opinion... take it or leave it... First How CoV was better than CoR. 1) CoR gave much less options to be part of evil religions than CoV gave to be part of good religions. For example... the substitution levels enabled many core classes to show their faith inclination to a good deity... we did not get much of that in CoR... Kossuth/Talos/Bane/Cyric/Shar deserved more attention prc/substitution levels/special feats... 2) CoV addressed many races in odd books... Goliath, Raptorians... CoR never mentioned how those odd races are involved in evil organizations. 3) CoR addressed way less evil organizations than CoV addressed good organizations... You have to hit at least the major ones first, the most well known, and when i say hit them i mean show some crunch... Where are the Zhentarims? Fire Assassins? Cult of the Dragon? Shades (althought we did get a race that comes from the shades which is good)... I acknowledge that the Red Wizards of Thay, Eldreth Veluuthra, Night Masks and the Black Blood Cult got decent attention.... I think the pages of npcs (that many of us haven't read about in story books) should have been omitted. Every prc in the book already had an example npc... why add unknowns to the book.. It's like reading about bands you never heard about and don't really want to. So what was good in CoR that was not in CoV? 1) The three race progressions were a good idea. Too bad Draegoloth had errors like not including SR and giving him the d10 of a Monsterous humanoid even though he is an outsider and should be d8, but still they were good... Too bad the other two races were less known than the Draegoloth.. maybe a progression of a Tanarukks or something more commonly known would have been more appropriate. 2) The evil ritual sections in CoR was excellent... more of this should have been around... basically enable the pcs to feel like they are evil and dig into the organization... So what was good about both books? 1) The feats were VERY good... Psionic/Exalted/Vile... all good. Would have liked more psionic in CoR and more Vile in CoR... something more related to organizations. 2) Spells were excellent. More vile was needed in CoR but the spells in CoR were much better quality than CoV... more related to the prcs and more related to evil pcs. Fact remains... both books were good, with CoV better overall.
Yokinobu 11-24-05, 09:16 PM	Oh, I totally agree that CoV was much better than CoR. I think the authors of CoV should have written CoR. Not that I have any problems with the authors of CoR, I simply would have preferred some parallelism, such as fringe benefits in evil organizations and substitution levels for evil religious groups. By the way, I really like Eric's contributions to both books. Namely Eltab and Equine breeds. The psionic feats really didn't fit, and I remember Sean saying something about a request to include them, so he had to. Don't know why the feats apply to duergar, however. And yes, the Fire Knife assassins should have been detailed in CoR, there was a PrC for it that should have been published in 2005, as Richard Baker said it would. I really don't know when we will see it.
BrianCritchley 11-24-05, 10:06 PM	yeah DUEGHAR based feats in COV was totally bogus. they shoulda instead invented a valorous psionic orginization and maybe done some feats around them
warlockco 11-25-05, 05:06 AM	yeah DUEGHAR based feats in COV was totally bogus. they shoulda instead invented a valorous psionic orginization and maybe done some feats around them SKR said he was told in include material for Psionics. He did feats for Duergar, because they have a large Psionic population, and aren't necessarily "evil," and he wanted to have something that could be used by a large number of beings as opposed to something for an organization that has maybe 20 or so members. Yes it doesn't fit, but its not his fault. He was given orders, and he carried them out.
Kuje31 11-25-05, 12:13 PM	SKR said he was told in include material for Psionics. He did feats for Duergar, because they have a large Psionic population, and aren't necessarily "evil," and he wanted to have something that could be used by a large number of beings as opposed to something for an organization that has maybe 20 or so members. Yes it doesn't fit, but its not his fault. He was given orders, and he carried them out. SKR's replies are in my 05 file as well. :)
Yokinobu 11-25-05, 11:23 PM	Well, I was wondering why the psionic feats necessarily had to be applied to a specific psionic group, period. Why not have general psionic feats usable by any psionicist instead of a race?
warlockco 11-26-05, 02:22 AM	Well, I was wondering why the psionic feats necessarily had to be applied to a specific psionic group, period. Why not have general psionic feats usable by any psionicist instead of a race? Take it up with SKR.
Misrani Karaquazian 11-26-05, 07:32 AM	Quick question... I notice sub level for a paladin of Selune, who is CG. Is she an exception to the one-step rule for paladins and their patron deity's alignment that was in the FRCS like Sune or was that rule tossed out in 3.5?
Waylander 11-26-05, 09:21 AM	Well, I was wondering why the psionic feats necessarily had to be applied to a specific psionic group, period. Why not have general psionic feats usable by any psionicist instead of a race? I sense an innate hate of psionics.. heh. Would it have been that hard to say... make a psionic feat that expends focus to make the mindblade of a soulknife, who is a member of Knights of Ilmphras II who follows Tyr, Torm or Ilmatar, good for purpose of penetrating DR and does extra 2d6 damage vs evil outsiders. Something like that. Is it really that bad? Would it destroy the setting to do something that useful? Shall we always pretend that humans can't become psionic in FR? The above example is a way of making it valorous and organization related instead of just being on a dreugar (an evil race) with no relation to being valorous.
Waylander 11-26-05, 09:25 AM	Quick question... I notice sub level for a paladin of Selune, who is CG. Is she an exception to the one-step rule for paladins and their patron deity's alignment that was in the FRCS like Sune or was that rule tossed out in 3.5? A paladin is not a cleric... the two steps away from his deity wont stop him from gettting spells. Of course a paladin following Bane wont get his spells.. heh.
Kuje31 11-26-05, 11:21 AM	A paladin is not a cleric... the two steps away from his deity wont stop him from gettting spells. Of course a paladin following Bane wont get his spells.. heh. The one step rule is for all divine casters, not just clerics.
Alac Luin 11-26-05, 01:16 PM	Note, In core D&D, it is only the cleric that follows the one step rule. the one-step rule for all divine casters is a Realms only thing, as called for in the FRCS. The FRCS over writes the core rules for a Realms game. So, Paladins, blackguards, Druids, in a realms game are supposed to be within one step of their deity. (yes, druids need a deity in a realms game) EDIT: To answer the question that spawned this in the first place, the rule from the FRCS has not been deleted. It is either an exception, the person writing that was not aware of the statement in the FRCS, or it represents something in the character's history (time worshiped another deity perhaps?).
BrianCritchley 11-26-05, 04:58 PM	actually yes Sune IS an exception. it's merntioned in the FRCS that she's an exception to this rule
Waylander 11-26-05, 06:29 PM	The one step rule is for all divine casters, not just clerics. Where do you see that rule in the PHB?
AskaniPsion 11-26-05, 06:32 PM	I have mixed feelings about CoV. Things I liked about it: 1) I LOVE Initiate feats!! Every diety should have them. I would really like to see ones for the Elven dieties especially Sehanine (but not just be a copy of Selune's) 2) LOTS of crunchy stuff! I absolutely hate when they put adventures in sourcebooks. it is pointless because players have such a good chance to read them making them useless to a DM. Keep adventures in Dungeon & actual modules - keep them OUT of sourcebooks & Dragon because players use them 3) Substituion levels! I love them!! I can't get enough of them. They are like the rules in Unearthed Arcana where they have the alternate abilities for the base classes (ex: a rogue canm take fighter feats instead of sneak attacks) 4) Regional backgrounds! I like that they have ones for religious groups. 5) Good art!! especially loved the Secret Moondancer photo - she looks very cool Things I don't like: 1) It really makes me mad that under the "Valiant Hero Archtypes", they didn't even mention classes except the Player's Hanbook classes!! What about Psions, Warlocks, Favored Souls or Healers?!!! Favored Souls were born to use this book! 2) WAY too much Ranger & Paladin stuff - almost every substition level is a paladin or ranger. I could see that most would be a paladin but except for a few monk ones, 1 cleric, 1 wizzie, all the other classes were excluded. 3) Psionics get the shaft again! Except for a 3 crappy psionic feats (2 of which only Duerger can take), there is no psionic stuff in it. Can't psionic characters be valorous?? 4) Hardly any non-human stuff - except for a dwarf thing here & 1 halfling thing there, the demihumans hardly got anything in this book for their gods. 5) I also think the book was kinda pricey for the low amount of pages in the book. 6) I would have liked to see some Oriental stuff relating to Samurai in the book - give Kara-Tur some 3.5 exposure!! Personally I have decided to return the book as I tend to play non-humans, psionic, non-paladin type classes.
Kuje31 11-26-05, 06:40 PM	Where do you see that rule in the PHB? It's not in the PHB as the others said, but FR lore overwrites the PHB when it comes to FR specific material and thus the FRCS says that all divine casters must be one step in FR.
Lana "Silvertongue" 11-26-05, 07:44 PM	I must admit, I really loved the Valor book. My DM covets the Ruin book because our group is Good inclined neutral. I like the regional information. Its perfect and I hope to see more like it. I noticed a heavier amount of Pal/ranger prestiges and would reccomend also includeing Clerics and druids with much higher level requirements or lack of progression in their current class and only having Palidan spells available from their prestige class. The fluff of the equines was worth the cover price of the book. But next time (or if more come out) Could you write up the fluff and then the line benieth it have Price and Common countries they can be found? I am finding the item fluff long winded and hard to read. I can't pinpoint why. Is there any way you guys could step back and look at it again. I like the concept but the applications just off mark. [Yea, I know.. I am not being as helpful as I could be] Any idea when you folks will update the product page for next year? Only one book at Xmas has really depressed my family.
warlockco 11-26-05, 11:23 PM	It's not in the PHB as the others said, but FR lore overwrites the PHB when it comes to FR specific material and thus the FRCS says that all divine casters must be one step in FR. With certain exceptions. Like Sune having Paladins.
Alac Luin 11-27-05, 01:08 PM	actually yes Sune IS an exception. it's merntioned in the FRCS that she's an exception to this rule The question was not about Sune. The question was about Selune haveing paladins. Selune has never before, at least as far as I am aware, has never before been an exeption to the one-step rule for divine spell casters. To those who need to see for themselves, this is from the FRCS FAQ "If you’re a divine spellcaster of any kind in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, you must choose a patron deity. When choosing a patron deity, you follow the “one-step” rule described in the Alignment subsection of the Cleric section of Chapter 3: Classes in the Player’s Handbook. Your alignment can be up to one “step” away from your patron’s. For example, a chaotic neutral ranger can choose Malar (a chaotic evil deity) as his patron, but could not choose Mielikki (a neutral good deity). Note that the one-step rule applies to anyone choosing a patron, not just divine spellcasters. (See page 39 of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting book.)" This answer is only restateing what is clearly written on page 39 of the FRCS.
ksu_bond 11-27-05, 03:27 PM	I'm not nearly as well versed in the 2e material as some...but I do recall Selune having a paladin order in 2e that were often referred to as "Lunatics"...but I'll check into this.
Kuje31 11-27-05, 03:29 PM	I'm not nearly as well versed in the 2e material as some...but I do recall Selune having a paladin order in 2e that were often referred to as "Lunatics"...but I'll check into this. They were crusaders, mystics, and others but no paladins. :)
ksu_bond 11-27-05, 03:35 PM	ah Crusaders thats right...thanx...like I said not quite an expert on 2e
Tempus665 12-04-05, 07:22 AM	Where we all cheated by Champions of Valor? Did anyone at all like the book? I like it a lot actually. It has a lot of material that stimulates actual roleplaying instead of rollplaying. This book clearly shows things are heading in the right direction!
Pystian 12-04-05, 03:03 PM	More material from CoV than from CoR will see play in my group. Frankly, I liked both books a lot.
Tempus665 12-04-05, 04:55 PM	Frankly, I liked both books a lot. Exactly! :) Me too. Btw Lucio Parillo is a great artist!
Dark Wizard 12-04-05, 05:30 PM	Which reminds me, there's no online art gallery put up for Champions of Valor.... :( The Spell Compendium is already up. Either they forgot/were delayed, or we're not getting one, which is a first since the earlier FR books released as paperbacks.