Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Karsus 01-03-06, 01:14 AM	-The question is straighforward. What personality has had the greatest impact on Abeir-Toril? Please, only mention mortals (Or beings who were mortal at the time of their actions). -In my opinion, the Netherese Archmage Karsus ranks the highest. Because of his actions, the actual rules for accessing magic changed. The effects of his spell, Karsus' Avatar still hamper wizards and sorcerers reaching for more and more power even today. -Ranking in second, in my opinion, is not a single person, but a small group. The Elves who wove the High Magic spell Uaul’Selu’Keryth, also known as 'The Sundering'. It literally reshaped Toril, reaching back in time, as well as forwards. -I look forward for you opinions...
Velkar 01-03-06, 09:53 PM	Ioulaum, he have create the mythallar, he have rise the flying city of Netheril and is beacose of him disappearance push the Netheril populations to panic. The High Mage of Netheril fear a popular revolt and push Karsus to act. In fact the actions of Karsus a only a react of Ioulaum diseapear. Ioulaum have sign the death of the Netheril Empire.
Silverpanther 01-04-06, 01:27 AM	well, if you say that there would have been no karsus without an ioulaum... there would have been no ioulaum without the terraseer :) this is like the question: who was first, the egg, or the chicken? and especially in this case: for everything great you need to have prerequisities created before your time comes.
Iakhovas 01-04-06, 07:49 PM	IMHO, The elves that gathered to unleash the High Magic that caused The Sundering had the largest impact on Toril. After all, tens of thousands died when the continents were ripped asunder. Even the fall of Netheril pales in comparison to The Sundering.
Lord Karsus 01-05-06, 12:24 AM	well, if you say that there would have been no karsus without an ioulaum... there would have been no ioulaum without the terraseer :) this is like the question: who was first, the egg, or the chicken? and especially in this case: for everything great you need to have prerequisities created before your time comes. -I agree with your line of thinking. And, without the founders of Oreme, there would be no Terraseer. And so on, and so on... -Ioulaum was a great arcanist, yes, but asides for the creation of the Mythallar, he didn't do a great deal. Netheril could have survived, albeit much differently, without the Mythallar. Otherwise, Ioulaum was quite stagnant.
JaiaDrottsingr 01-07-06, 11:24 AM	drizzt dourden
Davidw 01-07-06, 03:21 PM	Ed Greenwood. :D
Lord Karsus 01-08-06, 01:32 AM	drizzt dourden -First off, his name is Drizzt Do'Urden. Anyway, why do you believe that he has had the largest impact on Abeir-Toril?
Davidw 01-08-06, 05:43 AM	I'd imagine most people don't even know who Drizzt is.
Lord Karsus 01-08-06, 05:53 AM	I'd imagine most people don't even know who Drizzt is. -That is why I can't see how he has had much of an impact on Toril. Perhaps a few people living in the north know him. A few more people may know of him. He participated in a couple of battles, none of which were Earth...er, Toril-shattering. Yeah, as a character, he is attractive to fans, but as an NPC in the Forgotten Realms, he is a relativley minor character.
The ShapeLess One 01-09-06, 02:15 PM	Ed Greenwood. :D I agree 100%
Davidw 01-09-06, 06:05 PM	Recent people who have had a big effect on the world would probably be: Obould Many Arrows: for the war he's brought to Mithril Hall which is threatening to spill over into the surrounding lands. Establishing a new kingdom might not be world shattering but it's certainly affected everyone in that area. Vhostym: for the events in Midnight's Mask, which I can't go into here due to the no novels discussion rules.
Lord Karsus 01-09-06, 11:38 PM	Recent people who have had a big effect on the world would probably be: Obould Many Arrows: for the war he's brought to Mithril Hall which is threatening to spill over into the surrounding lands. Establishing a new kingdom might not be world shattering but it's certainly affected everyone in that area. Vhostym: for the events in Midnight's Mask, which I can't go into here due to the no novels discussion rules. -I finished Midnight's Mask, so I know what you speak of. Talking about it- in the proper context- wouldn't be a violation of the WotC CoC. Just do what you did with King Obould Many-Arrow, only censor it, since the info is still fairly new. Vhostym: Using magic, created an unnatural eclipse by moving a Tear of Selune. The Tear of Selune later crashed into Toril, causing much devastation, I am sure.
Karsus the Mad 01-11-06, 02:14 PM	Some of these have been said before, and I list these in no particular order. 1. Karsus: For his most known act, casting Karsus's Avatar and altering how magic works. But also for other facts. Created the first and only 12th level spell. Discovered heavy magic. Youngest archwizard ever. Created the first and only enclave to utilize 2 mythallars. And, related to his avatar spell, also the only known mortal to bypass Ao's required permission to achieve divinity. 2. Ioulaum: invented the mythallar. Created the first quasi-magic item. Created the first enclave. Possibly the creator of the dreaded alhoon. 3. The terra-seer: Either directly or indirectly created Netheril (as we remember it). Made possible the discovery of the Nether Scrolls (and may have had a hand in crafting them), made possible the discovery of chardalyn stones (thus bypassing the annoyance of taking the attune gem feat, etc). 4. Coronal Eltagrim: Without him, the dream of cormanthyr most likely would never have come to pass, and thus such cities as Silverymoon (now a beacon of light in the north) never would have aspired to achieve what was lost with the fall of myth drannor. 5. Coronal Ivosaar Vyshaan: The bugger that started the First Crown War, and subsequent other wars which later on would indirectly/directly result in numerous disasters such as the creation of the high moore and the descent. 6. Yuvaraj, Lord Artificer of Imaskar: His failure to force down the mulan rebellion and subsequent death at the hands of Horus creates the Raurin Dust Desert and leads to the exodus of the former slaves who eventually found the nations of Mulhorand and Unther, ushering in several millenia of bloodshed and oppression by both nations, which in turn leads to the founding of Thay and the Red Wizards (with all the horrors they bring). 7. The First Emperor of Jhaamdath: Without his naval ambitions and warlike policies, the high mages of the Chondalwood would never have caused the destruction of Jhaamdath and the byproduct creation of the Vilhon Reach. I'm sure there's many, many more.
Yaeri 01-11-06, 02:33 PM	Sorry for my probably newbie questions, but who or what is the terra seer? And what are the details of this 'sundering' thingie? I vote Karsus, for getting a deity to die, a civilization to perish, becoming a god and getting the workings of magic to change all in the blink of an eye. (Okay he has been working really long on his spell :D) I think Drizzt was mentioned as a joke, because he's the most copied, discussed (hate him or love him) character.
Karsus the Mad 01-11-06, 02:42 PM	Sorry for my probably newbie questions, but who or what is the terra seer? And what are the details of this 'sundering' thingie? I vote Karsus, for getting a deity to die, a civilization to perish, becoming a god and getting the workings of magic to change all in the blink of an eye. (Okay he has been working really long on his spell :D) I think Drizzt was mentioned as a joke, because he's the most copied, discussed (hate him or love him) character. The Terra-seer is a sarukh lich. He taught some of the first arcanists of Netheril (the elves taught the first arcanist, Therion of Gers). He's the one that allowed "finder" to discover the Nether Scrolls. He manipulated much of Netheril's history towards being a magic rich civilization in hopes that the Netherese (who had an unusual knack for wizardry) would succeed where the Sarukh failed: discovering magic capable of destroying the phaerrimm. The Sundering is the greatest (and worst, in regards to it's global ramifications) act of Elven High Magic. It created the Island of Evermeet.
GothicDan 01-11-06, 02:55 PM	And shattered or otherwise reshaped much of the continent of Faerun.
Karsus the Mad 01-11-06, 03:14 PM	Yep. Didn't it also sunder the Weave?
Karsus the Mad 01-11-06, 03:28 PM	I'll also add the arcanist Melathlar, who used his magic (dying as a result) to create what would eventually be known as the Host Tower of the Arcane (I don't think the ramifications of which need to be explained). Another is Raumark, who led a flight of Netherese skyships south and founds the nation that will become Halruaa. And, obviously, Telemont. The consequences so far have been felt across most of the North and the Heartlands, and only time will tell what other consequences will result from the return of Shade.
Phelddatog 01-11-06, 04:11 PM	this is like the question: who was first, the egg, or the chicken?The egg came first, as the question did not specify what type of egg it is referring to, and eggs clearly existed before chickens did.
GothicDan 01-11-06, 04:58 PM	It did not Sunder the Weave. The Elves were later rewarded after the Fall of Netheril for NEVER having seriously endangered the Weave; thus Mystra allow them to keep 10th level spells.
Silverpanther 01-12-06, 03:10 AM	The egg came first, as the question did not specify what type of egg it is referring to, and eggs clearly existed before chickens did. pal, i KNOW that :) and to be precise, the first chicken was a mutation out of an egg of another species, so it definitely IS the egg... but the fact that you and me know that... well, many people don`t ;) what? elves can have 10th level spells?! WHERE IS THAT WRITTEN?! i mean in game terms, rules-wise, whatever?
GothicDan 01-12-06, 03:15 AM	It was in 2E. 3E is different. Now we pretend like it was all a dream. Never happened. We must have been hallucinating.
Karsus the Mad 01-12-06, 03:27 AM	It did not Sunder the Weave. The Elves were later rewarded after the Fall of Netheril for NEVER having seriously endangered the Weave; thus Mystra allow them to keep 10th level spells. Actually the spell does temporarily sunder the weave, causes dead magic, and reaks havoc with nature. Just read it in Cormanthyr. what? elves can have 10th level spells?! WHERE IS THAT WRITTEN?! i mean in game terms, rules-wise, whatever? Like Dan said. LEoF redoes this to be that mystra's ban applied to all beings after the Fall of Netheril, and not just non-elves. They cause more calamity and harm using magic, yet they were rewarded after a single human made a single mistake :rolleyes: ;) That's mystra for ya:P
GothicDan 01-12-06, 03:37 AM	Mystra didn't care about what was done with magic, just that magic and the Weave itself was kept intact. Karsus messed that up. She didn't care how many Killing Storms the Elves would have thrown around; they were using the Weave for what it was used for, casting spells. Karsus cast a spell that HURT the Weave.
Karsus the Mad 01-12-06, 03:41 AM	Read edit, I just read the spell, and it does all those things.
GothicDan 01-12-06, 03:45 AM	Temporarily being the key word. :)
Karsus the Mad 01-12-06, 03:54 AM	Which is the same thing that happened with KA. It wasn't karsus that destroyed the weave, it was mystryl sacrificing herself and cutting K's connection to her that caused the (also temporary) sundering of the weave. K was completely innocent of destroying the weave (Well.....ok, he's not, but he didn't do it:P). Of course, it's a wopper of a mistake and I think the ban was an appropriate response from mystra. However, the elves are far from innocent of abuse of magic. I think LEoF unintentionally balanced that factor out. The elves were (I can't think of any current elf that would deserve it) just as guilty for abuse of the weave and causing great disasters (moreso than any human). Thus a ban against all is rather fair for those guilty of abuse, and is merely a needed sacrifice for those that weren't. And, more realistically, it explains why the pc's can't perform such feats as has been noted in lore of ancient empires, etc, etc, instead of saying ''cuz such magic isn't in the phb, that's why.'' :)
GothicDan 01-12-06, 03:57 AM	Once more, the old Mystra didn't care about damage done using magic, merely damage done to the Weave. Since the Sundering was only temporary damage to the Weave, and not on a univeral scale like KA's was, the Elves are hardly culprits. If you know of any individuals or instances of them directly abusing the Weave in a large-area or long-term fashion, I'd be interested in knowing of them.
Yaeri 01-12-06, 05:18 AM	So what did the gnomes and halflings ever do to the weave? :p
Karsus the Mad 01-12-06, 05:37 AM	Once more, the old Mystra didn't care about damage done using magic, merely damage done to the Weave. Since the Sundering was only temporary damage to the Weave, and not on a univeral scale like KA's was, the Elves are hardly culprits. If you know of any individuals or instances of them directly abusing the Weave in a large-area or long-term fashion, I'd be interested in knowing of them. All these things happened when mystryl was goddess, not mystra. Mystryl's writeup says nothing of not caring about damage done using magic, nor does it say anything about merely damage done to the weave. In fact it doesn't say anything about her caring or not caring about anything. And the sundering wasn't temporary. The sundering of the weave was temporary, but the vast damage it caused (both in the form of mass death and natural disasters, as well as the formation of dead magic) were/are permanent. KA didn't even do that. The sundering of the weave at the fall of netheril wasn't due to karsus or his spell. The weave was sundered by mystryl. And the damage to spellcasting wasn't the fault of it either, that was mystra's doing when she (rightfully) placed her ban. The only thing Karsus is guilty of is overwelming arrogance (I believe that's also his 2e deity portfolio), and that was unique to a specific, mentally deranged person, not an entire race or even a group of people, unlike the damage caused by the sundering, the dark disaster, etc. Since it was mystra that punished the Netherese (and everyone else) for their abuse of magic, and it was mystryl that didn't punish the elves (or anyone else) for their abuse of magic, it's rather difficult to say the humans deserved it or to say the elves didn't deserve it, or vice versa. Two different deities of different mindsets, reacting (or in mystryl's case, not reacting) to different actions of abuse in different time periods. Would the current mystra have reacted differently? Maybe the authors decided that after mystryl died and was reincarnated as mystra, the new goddess of magic deemed the elves deserved the same fate as everyone else (as opposed to 2e where elves were the only beings allowed to access 10th level magic) for their past abuse of magic that mystryl simply overlooked (much in the way mystryl didn't punish the netherese for their abuse of magic). Or maybe they just figured to make it all balanced. Why be anything other than an elf wizard when they'd be the only ones able to access 10th level magic? <shrugs> Either way, the elves were banned, along with everyone else (innocent or guilty) in -339DR from accessing 10th+ magic via mystra's weave, and it makes sense (you don't have to be a human to cause great distruction to the weave), so arguing whether they deserved it or not is moot and not the topic at hand. So what did the gnomes and halflings ever do to the weave? :p Exactly. Which has the retcon of everyone having been banned makes more sense than everyone, but those that have used magic to destroy the most, is banned. But then again, the magic the elves used to wreak such destruction wasn't true 10th+ magic anyway, so the ban didn't actually affect their ability to perform atrocities like the high moore. So it begs the question "why 10th+ and not just 12th level magic?". The answer, as boring as it is, is there isn't 10th+ level spell progression. I'm not even sure that the 10th level magic the elves were still allowed to access followed the same 0-9th level rules (Dan, you probably know more on that than I do.) which may be why they've been converted into epic magic (along with high magic and true dweomers).
Lord Karsus 01-12-06, 07:02 AM	So what did the gnomes and halflings ever do to the weave? :p -Good question...Good question...
GothicDan 01-12-06, 12:52 PM	They never practiced magic that powerful in the first place in FR, in 1E/2E, when such rules were written.
Thelandrach 01-12-06, 05:07 PM	I would nominate whichever of the Phaerimm came up with the spell used to create the Anauroch desert. Like the Sundering, that person's efforts are visible from orbit...
Krash 01-13-06, 01:18 AM	I'll also add the arcanist Melathlar, who used his magic (dying as a result) to create what would eventually be known as the Host Tower of the Arcane (I don't think the ramifications of which need to be explained). Ahh, it's always nice to see one's own creations mentioned by the fans. :D :cool: -- George Krashos
Zsych 01-14-06, 04:42 PM	From what i can recall, elves were allowed 10th level magic uptil the Fall of Myth Drannor. As for the Sundering... weakened magic all over the world and made it stronger over Evermeet. Wonder what that would mean for a human on evermeet, i don't recall ever reading anything along those lines. Hmm... who had the largest effect? I'll admit that Karsus is the first name that comes to mind. And if he was arrogant, so what? It was not rightful of Mystra to choose what level of magic humans should use. It was right that humans seek godhood as they did in the days of Netheril. Death to Mystra!!! (The new one too, worthless excuse for a former human) - Karsus' actions also affected Clerics, and for all practical purposes, he's probably the only human to have managed to freighten all of the gods into acting, so that they made the spell casting of their clerics more controllable. Of course, there were very few gods back then... at least Velsharoon, has managed to become a god using his own spell casting abilities(even if the knowledge came from Talos)... In that way, humans may yet come to threaten gods again. - The storyline for the Immortals was good in that the purpose of the universe was to create beings that may evolve into Old Ones(Super Gods of sorts). Wonder what the creators of the universe would think about the few humans who are talented, being limited from achieving their potential(obviously nothing, since Mystra is still alive.. then again, there are countless worlds outside the Crystal Sphere, so maybe it doesn't matter :) ) - Hmm... why has there been no attempt to resurrect Karsus? Shade, and other descendents of Netheril at least should have had a reason to do it... And Shar probably wouldn't object to the Shadow-weave being used to cast Karsus Avatar on Mystra.
Calrond 01-14-06, 05:15 PM	I know the flaming will start, but the mortal who stands out in my mind as having the most impact on Toril recently was Midnight, who later became Mystra. She dealt with the avatars of Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal, and was able to find both of the Tablets of Fate, one of which was in Myrkul's Bone Castle. She was then able to kill Myrkul's avatar and almost singlehandedly ended the Godswar. For a short time, she was the only mortal in Toril who could use magic with any hope of casting the right spell, and she was elevated to the status of one of the most powerful deities, equal in Divine Rank to Shar. Calrond
GothicDan 01-14-06, 06:04 PM	Torm killed Bane and Cyric killed Bhaal. And by the time that Midnight slew Myrkul's Avatar, she was already effectively a deity.
Calrond 01-15-06, 01:53 AM	Of course, that's why I said "dealt with" as in "interacted with" instead of "killed" as I did in the case of Myrkul. I'm not sure about this "effectively a deity" thing, though. Don't get me wrong, I know that you know what you're talking about, Dan, but I just have a hard time seeing that Midnight was already effectively Mystra at that point in time. To me, that happened in the nanoseconds after Ao whisked Midnight and Cyric away to the Upper Planes. That's when I got the impression that she became a deity. I understand that she had abilities that went beyond even Elminster at the time, but I suppose it's going to take just a little convincing for me to go along with the statement that she was effectively a deity. Calrond
GothicDan 01-15-06, 03:08 AM	At the end of the adventure, it says, specifically, that Mystra's stats at that point are negligible. In other words, she is deific in power, since even Cyric's stats at the end of the adventure were given. :)
Lord Karsus 01-15-06, 02:46 PM	Of course, that's why I said "dealt with" as in "interacted with" instead of "killed" as I did in the case of Myrkul. I'm not sure about this "effectively a deity" thing, though. Don't get me wrong, I know that you know what you're talking about, Dan, but I just have a hard time seeing that Midnight was already effectively Mystra at that point in time. To me, that happened in the nanoseconds after Ao whisked Midnight and Cyric away to the Upper Planes. That's when I got the impression that she became a deity. I understand that she had abilities that went beyond even Elminster at the time, but I suppose it's going to take just a little convincing for me to go along with the statement that she was effectively a deity. Calrond -Well, she did have Mystra's deific essence within her...
Zsych 01-15-06, 05:10 PM	Ao was just playing with the gods. The Tablets of Fate, although recovered were actually worth nothing. If Midnight had not been around, Ao would've decided that his point was made sooner or later. And if a super-mage kills an avatar that's been reduced to human levels, it's not all that amazing. Half of the avatars tend to have their main strength in the wizard/sorcerer areas, without magic, any decent fighter could've killed a lot of those avatars.
GothicDan 01-15-06, 07:13 PM	I wouldn't go that far. During the ToT, the deities' avatars as stated in F&A were those used. So, by the end of the adventure, we could effectively say that Midnight was in fact Mystra's Avatar - a 40/40 Wizard/Cleric.
babysamurai 01-18-06, 10:53 AM	Yamun Kahan had a pretty big military impact on old Toril. He swept out of the Quoya Desert (sp?) into Shou-Lung, where the great Shou General - Batu Min Ho (half Tuigan) protected Kai Chin's empire. Then turned his eye on conquering the west, where he was defeated in single combat by King Azoun. There is also General Cordell from Amn who "discovered" Maztica. There is also Halaster...he be a mighty freak.
Orchestration 01-18-06, 09:23 PM	I am quite new to this. What exactly did this Karsus chap do? He cast a 12th level spell, which somehow bypassed Ao (which is something in it self as not even gods can do that) and let him become a god? Then one of the old deitys killed them selves to stop the guy from being a god and this somehow damaged the weave? As stated by others, would this mean that a person in theory could cast it using the Shadow Weave? Hmm.. I wonder what would happen if two people cast the spell at the same time (one using weave and one using shodow weave) and at the exact same time you killed Mystra and Shar (OK thats damn near inpossible but it COULD happen)?
Yanagita Kunio 01-19-06, 03:33 AM	The individuals who assassinated Aravae and thus precipitated the political collapse of Cormanthor bear mentioning, even though they were never identified. Originally Posted by Karsus the Mad: I'll also add the arcanist Melathlar, who used his magic (dying as a result) to create what would eventually be known as the Host Tower of the Arcane (I don't think the ramifications of which need to be explained). All right, I'll declare my ignorance outright: I know squat about the Host Tower's history...but I really want to. Please do explain the ramifications, or at least point me to the right materials.
ywhtptgtfo 01-19-06, 04:20 AM	Durothil - The one who brought gold elves to Toril Ka'Narlist - Father of the drow. Persecutor of Avariel Sysquemalyn - Killed Candlemas, who might've saved Netheril Some female archmage - Brought Lolth's attention to Toril Olostin - Traitor of Netheril
Lord Karsus 01-19-06, 08:54 AM	I am quite new to this. What exactly did this Karsus chap do? He cast a 12th level spell, which somehow bypassed Ao (which is something in it self as not even gods can do that) and let him become a god? Then one of the old deitys killed them selves to stop the guy from being a god and this somehow damaged the weave? As stated by others, would this mean that a person in theory could cast it using the Shadow Weave? Hmm.. I wonder what would happen if two people cast the spell at the same time (one using weave and one using shodow weave) and at the exact same time you killed Mystra and Shar (OK thats damn near inpossible but it COULD happen)? -Yep, you've hit it on the head. Karsus researched and cast the worlds only 12-level spell, Karsus' Avatar. He then bypassed Ao, and tore the divinity from Mystryl. I think we can also say that Karsus was one of the few mortals to kill a divine power, since Mystryl died because of Karsus casting his spell. -I'm not gonna get into the "Can we cast Karsus' Avatar using the Shadow Weave?" argument. As for casting it on both Shar and Mystra, well, it wouldn't work- Mystra does not allow spells over 9th level, and if she saw someone trying to brew this spell, I'm sure she have a Chosen have a nice long talk with said person.
Zsych 01-19-06, 01:24 PM	Did Velsharoon really have Ao's permission to ascend to godhood? Ao may be able to control the gods, but i'm not sure he cares very much under normal circumstances if the Realms don't move too far from what he wants to see. Besides, before Karsus, it seems that none of the gods really considered humans something to be concerned with. After Karsus, even clerical magic came under strict divine control, with the spells having to be memorized lest some unwanted(by the god) spell get cast. Ahh.. the Can we cast Karsus Avatar spell with the Shadow-weave debate :) Not that it's worth as much with it no longer being permanent in 3E. Might give you a chance to beat up the god you drained and steal the remainders of his divine essence(it's not like the god gets added protection while you use the spell) And Mystra can't stop the spell from being cast, or even be aware of research done on it, if it's being done with the Shadow-weave(and possibly with other forms of non-weave magic). And since Shar is independent of the shadow-weave, if you could somehow stop her from shutting it down while you cast the spell, you could steal her power :) Better not to risk messing with Shar though :) Hmm... i'm not playing anywhere these days, but bringing down Mystra even if you have to suffer the horrors of some other plane like Hell to do it, might be worth it(Ah... My Netherese soul hates Mystra) ... Wonder why Mystra chose to ban magic from normal people though, and limit it only to Wizards and such. That micro-magic from people who could never be mages definitely wasn't going to hurt her any.
Karsus the Mad 01-19-06, 01:26 PM	Ahh, it's always nice to see one's own creations mentioned by the fans. -- George Krashos It's an excellent touch I think, and one worth noting in this thread. :) Hmm... why has there been no attempt to resurrect Karsus? Shade, and other descendents of Netheril at least should have had a reason to do it... And Shar probably wouldn't object to the Shadow-weave being used to cast Karsus Avatar on Mystra. Several reasons probably. First is how to deal with such an npc. Imagine it, the only wizard to ever do such a thing. How would the rest of Faerun deal with it? It creates so many semantical (is that even a real word?) problems that the authors would be hard pressed to make it flow smoothly. Best left to keep me in purgatory, where the only problems I can cause is on an enternet forum devoted to the fantasy game I almost destroyed (giggles). Karsus can't be resurrected for the same reason he can't "die". His soul is fractured into 3 parts. One is the red butte in the Dire Woods, another is the undestroyable stone golem resting on top of that red butte, and the last fragment is the Karsestone, which is in the hands of Shar. If all three soul fragments can be brought back together, then he can "pass beyond" or be brought back to life. Until such time Karsus is simply going to have to relive the Fall over and over in his self wrought hell. Hmm.. I wonder what would happen if two people cast the spell at the same time (one using weave and one using shodow weave) and at the exact same time you killed Mystra and Shar (OK thats damn near inpossible but it COULD happen)? Well, it can't be cast from the Weave, since Mystra has banned true 10th+ magic, and Shar isn't stupid. She wouldn't allow 12th level magic, if it's possible, from working on her weave either. As to 10th and 11th level magic, well that's currently in debate ;)
Lord Karsus 01-19-06, 01:39 PM	And Mystra can't stop the spell from being cast, or even be aware of research done on it, if it's being done with the Shadow-weave(and possibly with other forms of non-weave magic). And since Shar is independent of the shadow-weave, if you could somehow stop her from shutting it down while you cast the spell, you could steal her power :) -When I said that Mystra would put a stop to anyone researching the spell, I meant if they were conducting it through the Weave (Which is impossible, so they'd be in for a surprise!). Mystra caused most knowledge about Karsus' Avatar to vanish, and I am sure she wouldn't take kindly to anyone digging up such information.
Baptor 01-19-06, 01:56 PM	-The question is straighforward. What personality has had the greatest impact on Abeir-Toril? Please, only mention mortals (Or beings who were mortal at the time of their actions). -In my opinion, the Netherese Archmage Karsus ranks the highest. Because of his actions, the actual rules for accessing magic changed. The effects of his spell, Karsus' Avatar still hamper wizards and sorcerers reaching for more and more power even today. -Ranking in second, in my opinion, is not a single person, but a small group. The Elves who wove the High Magic spell Uaul’Selu’Keryth, also known as 'The Sundering'. It literally reshaped Toril, reaching back in time, as well as forwards. -I look forward for you opinions... Who has had the greatest impact? Why...you my lord.
Lord Karsus 01-19-06, 06:56 PM	Who has had the greatest impact? Why...you my lord. -Excellent. Those are the kind of responses I want...:evillaugh
babysamurai 01-20-06, 06:59 AM	Okay, the original theme of this thread was interesting, but now it has degenerated into a discussion about Senior Karsus...boring. Could we please discuss some other characters that have had an impact on Toril?
Karsus the Mad 01-20-06, 07:40 AM	If it's boring, then it figures that noone would discuss it to begin with. But since people are discussing it, one can only conclude that it is indeed not boring :teach: :P Another who has had a great impact on Toril would be Manshoon.
babysamurai 01-20-06, 08:10 AM	If it's boring, then it figures that noone would discuss it to begin with. But since people are discussing it, one can only conclude that it is indeed not boring :teach: :P Another who has had a great impact on Toril would be Manshoon. Well, interesting for the few of you that are actually discussing it, but what about the rest of the people on the boards who's world doesn't rise and set around Karsus. ...Manshoon, see, that's what I'm talking about. I didn't mean to offend anyone, I just thought that this thread could reach a little wider than one dude.
Lord Karsus 01-20-06, 09:28 AM	Okay, the original theme of this thread was interesting, but now it has degenerated into a discussion about Senior Karsus...boring. Could we please discuss some other characters that have had an impact on Toril? -Well, if it is so boring, then why don't you suggest someone? :waits:
babysamurai 01-20-06, 09:31 AM	-Well, if it is so boring, then why don't you suggest someone? :waits: Do you even read your own thread? Look towards the top of this page and you will see I already suggested: Yamun Kahan General Cordell Halaster What are your thoughts on these bad-boys?
Lord Karsus 01-20-06, 09:45 AM	Do you even read your own thread? Look towards the top of this page and you will see I already suggested: Yamun Kahan General Cordell Halaster What are your thoughts on these bad-boys? -Yamun Kahan (And I don't know too much about him) did prove that the Shou are not eternal and that their country isn't as inpenetrable as they thought. But, the effects of his incoursion into Kara-Tur won't last forever. Eventually, people go back to complacency. -General Cordell. Don't know a thing about the guy except that he discovered Maztica. -Halaster is a great magician, but he doesn't doo much. He is a powerful NPC, and a certified Mad Mage. But, his effects on the world are somewhat limited. Most of the time, he is sitting in his Undermountain, doing whatever crazy wizards do. If he was more active in the affairs of Toril, I am sure he would have a very large impact. -Oh, and I thought of someone else who has had a very large impact on the planet: Sammaster.
babysamurai 01-20-06, 10:08 AM	-Oh, and I thought of someone else who has had a very large impact on the planet: Sammaster. I'm having a brain-fart...who is that again?
Lord Karsus 01-20-06, 10:12 AM	I'm having a brain-fart...who is that again? -Sammaster is a former Chosen of Mystra who went on to found the Cult of the Dragon. He also was the first to create a Dracolich, and is (currently) the only one who knows how to stop the Rage from influencing a Dragon's mind. Oh, and he's also a Lich.
Orchestration 01-20-06, 10:18 AM	-Yep, you've hit it on the head. Karsus researched and cast the worlds only 12-level spell, Karsus' Avatar. He then bypassed Ao, and tore the divinity from Mystryl. I think we can also say that Karsus was one of the few mortals to kill a divine power, since Mystryl died because of Karsus casting his spell. -I'm not gonna get into the "Can we cast Karsus' Avatar using the Shadow Weave?" argument. As for casting it on both Shar and Mystra, well, it wouldn't work- Mystra does not allow spells over 9th level, and if she saw someone trying to brew this spell, I'm sure she have a Chosen have a nice long talk with said person. Sorry I wasn't very clear. Lets say that something happend and somehow Mystra died. Wouldn't this remove the restrictions of casting 12th level magic (at least temporarily)? During that time would it not then be possible to cast the spell? Now lets say Mystra and Shar both fought each other and it resulted in both of them dieing. At this time someone casts the spell using Weave and the other Shadow Weave. What might happen in this situation? Then what happens after you become a god? Could Ao kick you out or would he actually be powerless in this case? I am sure there some Lich out there just biding his time waiting for the oppertunity to cast the spell either way.
Andyr 01-20-06, 10:43 AM	Sysquemalyn - Killed Candlemas, who might've saved Netheril Hey, I'd forgotten about that--good set of books, and you're right about Candlemas. The discussion here does largely seem to be about the fall of Netheril...
Antony_Lee 01-20-06, 11:00 AM	Drizzit, idea: if no drizzit -> no that much peoples know forgotten realms -> no that money generate for the publisher of forgotten realms -> no that much publishing of forgotten realms series.
Karsus the Mad 01-20-06, 11:35 AM	Well, interesting for the few of you that are actually discussing it, but what about the rest of the people on the boards who's world doesn't rise and set around Karsus. ...Manshoon, see, that's what I'm talking about. I didn't mean to offend anyone, I just thought that this thread could reach a little wider than one dude. I truly didn't mean to offend you in any way (true apologies if I did). It's simply my personal way (ask Dan or Kuje or whoever) of joking about non-serious matters (it is afterall merely a game). That's also why I offered up Manshoon. He's indeed had a rather serious impact on the Realms (either directly, or indirectly via the Zhentarim). I was merely attempting to appease the topic at hand, and at the same time aknowledge that Karsus isn't the actual center of the topic (but then again, who has had as much effect upon Toril? Other than those I've already named?). Again, if I had offended you in any manner, I apologize sincerely, it was not my intent to mock (merely lighten the atmosphere).
Lord Karsus 01-20-06, 12:11 PM	Sorry I wasn't very clear. Lets say that something happend and somehow Mystra died. Wouldn't this remove the restrictions of casting 12th level magic (at least temporarily)? During that time would it not then be possible to cast the spell? I am sure there some Lich out there just biding his time waiting for the oppertunity to cast the spell either way. -Aw, now we are talking about Mystra being killed! So, say we are in the situation where X the Archmage wants to cast Karsus' Avatar. First off, no one knows how to cast the spell anymore, since Mystra hid Karsus' research after she was created. But, say X knows how to cast the spell, and knows exactly when Mystra will die, somehow. All theoretical, remember. Mystra is the Weave, so no Mystra, no Weave. This means that if Mystra died, magic would no longer exist. Therefore X the Archmage would not be able to cast his spell. If he was using a non-Weave method of casting the spell (which again, is impossible), the time it would take for Mystra to reincarnate herself, since she must exist, would be nearly instantaneous. It takes 6 hours to cast Karsus' Avatar, so again, too much time would pass.
Lord Karsus 01-20-06, 12:12 PM	Drizzit, idea: if no drizzit -> no that much peoples know forgotten realms -> no that money generate for the publisher of forgotten realms -> no that much publishing of forgotten realms series. -I disagree wholeheartedly. The Forgotten Realms existed before Drizzt was created, and they would have existed should the Drow never have been created.
Karsus the Mad 01-20-06, 12:17 PM	Mystra is the Weave, so no Mystra, no Weave. This means that if Mystra died, magic would no longer exist. Not exactly my good friend. The Shadow Weave would persist and continue to regulate the flow of "filtered" raw magic normally, regardless of the existence of the Weave or Mystra. Mystra is dependant upon the Weave, and vice versa, but Raw Magic (the source of all magic, regardless of type or weave) is not dependent upon weaves nor is it under any dominion of gods. Thus the spell would be technically possible whether any weave existed or not.
Lord Karsus 01-20-06, 03:19 PM	Not exactly my good friend. The Shadow Weave would persist and continue to regulate the flow of "filtered" raw magic normally, regardless of the existence of the Weave or Mystra. Mystra is dependant upon the Weave, and vice versa, but Raw Magic (the source of all magic, regardless of type or weave) is not dependent upon weaves nor is it under any dominion of gods. Thus the spell would be technically possible whether any weave existed or not. -This actually brings up a new, and interesting discussion. Would the Shadow Weave exist without Mystra? Mystra is the Weave. The Shadow Weave is the "strands between the Weave, the gaps in the spider's web, the bubbles trapped in the waters of the ocean". How can there be strands inbetween the Weave, if the Weave is no Weave? This is all theoretical, of course, but interesting... -I'm gonna start up a new thread to discuss this, so that this thread doesn't get sidetracked...
Karsus the Mad 01-21-06, 08:51 AM	-This actually brings up a new, and interesting discussion. Would the Shadow Weave exist without Mystra? Mystra is the Weave. The Shadow Weave is the "strands between the Weave, the gaps in the spider's web, the bubbles trapped in the waters of the ocean". How can there be strands inbetween the Weave, if the Weave is no Weave? This is all theoretical, of course, but interesting... -I'm gonna start up a new thread to discuss this, so that this thread doesn't get sidetracked... MoF says The Shadow Weave is independent of and not subject to Mystra's Laws or states of well being. Should Mystra die and the Weave be destroyed forever, the Shadow Weave would be completely unaffected, etc. This has also caused some confusion in regards to Mystra's Ban applying or not applying to the SW. Anyhoo, not the topic, but will meet you on the new thread.
lone_ranger_84 01-25-06, 02:56 PM	I would have to say the companions of the hall, AKA Bruenor, Wulfgar, Cattie-brie, Drizzt, Regis
GothicDan 01-25-06, 05:54 PM	The Companions are mere gnats in Faerun. Just because you read about someone doesn't make them important or influential.
shiyongseng 01-25-06, 10:01 PM	I would think that if Mystra were killed then all spells would still continue to function, but they would function more like they did in the Time Of Troubles. Thus this grand spell would still happen- with an even possible worse effect. Or maybe is could be adapted to use the Shadow Weave...
Mirtek 01-26-06, 01:48 PM	I wouldn't go that far. During the ToT, the deities' avatars as stated in F&A were those used. So, by the end of the adventure, we could effectively say that Midnight was in fact Mystra's Avatar - a 40/40 Wizard/Cleric. Actually no, they were not. The stats of the avatars that were given in the adventures are nothing like the stats in F&A. E.g. Bane's avatar during the ToT was a 21st level wizard, while his ordinary avatar was a Clr36/Ftr30/Wiz30/Rog10. Myrkul was forced to manifest as a Wiz23, instead of his Clr38/Ftr28/Wiz25 ( chilling touch also inflicted only 1d4 points of damage and allowed a save to prevent the Str loos instead of the 1d10 of his normal avatars which also didn't allow a save and automatically drained strenght) Far less powerful than “usual” avatars assumed by divine beings, they are the result of possessing human or humanlike bodies.
Ocrus of Wessek 01-26-06, 07:54 PM	I would say cyric, bear with me here. Cyric ascended to godhood without it being a direct reward for service to a god, he went directly to greater godhood, without being a servitor of a more powerful god who raised him up first. Also he killed a god while he was still mortal. others can't say that, when midnight slew myrkuls avatar she had mystras divine essence inside her, and when karsus messed up mystryl, his spell had elevated him to the status of a deity. Lastly the events which led to cyrics rise are fairly recent, and well known, the average commoner would have a pretty good chance to have heard a rumor or some such thing about the events surrounding cyrics ascension to godhood. whereas very few people know about things like iolum, karsus, coronal eltargrym, even fewer know about the other people who contributed to the crown wars. and as for pre-nethernese history, i doubt that there are more than a dozen people on the face of toril at any given time who would even know the vaguest of details about that.
Mirtek 01-26-06, 07:58 PM	Also he killed a god while he was still mortal. others can't say that, when midnight slew myrkuls avatar she had mystras divine essence inside her, And Cyric had a god right in his hand. If we want to be really petty, then it was Mask who killed Bhaal, not Cyric (who was basically only moving Mask, who was to lazy to move on his own and thus choose an immobile object as his avatar).
Kuje31 01-26-06, 07:59 PM	I would say cyric, bear with me here. Cyric ascended to godhood without it being a direct reward for service to a god, he went directly to greater godhood, without being a servitor of a more powerful god who raised him up first. Also he killed a god while he was still mortal. others can't say that, when midnight slew myrkuls avatar she had mystras divine essence inside her, and when karsus messed up mystryl, his spell had elevated him to the status of a deity. Except you forgot to mention that Mask helped him slay the deity Cyric slayed since NO mortal, in FR, can be raised to a deity without the help of another deity. :)
Mirtek 01-26-06, 08:03 PM	since NO mortal, in FR, can be raised to a deity without the help of another deity. :) No mortal can SLAY a deity without the help of another deity. No mortal can be raised to a deity without the approval of Ao. It has not been stated that no mortal my rise himself to a deity without a divine sponsor (unless you want to be petty and call Ao's approval sponsorship of a deity ;) ). Yes, so far any mortal who came so far as to requiring Ao's OK as the final step to deityhood got there with the help of a divine sponsor. However (unlike the rules about slaying a god and Ao's approval) there is no rule saying that a mortal couldn't come this far without a divine sposor (granted, it would be a LOT harder then with a sponsor)
Ocrus of Wessek 01-26-06, 08:25 PM	No mortal can SLAY a deity without the help of another deity. No mortal can be raised to a deity without the approval of Ao. It has not been stated that no mortal my rise himself to a deity without a divine sponsor (unless you want to be petty and call Ao's approval sponsorship of a deity ;) ). Yes, so far any mortal who came so far as to requiring Ao's OK as the final step to deityhood got there with the help of a divine sponsor. However (unlike the rules about slaying a god and Ao's approval) there is no rule saying that a mortal couldn't come this far without a divine sposor (granted, it would be a LOT harder then with a sponsor) exactly, cyric had no aspirations of serving any diety, none whatsoever, not even when he murdered one, Ao himself chose cyric. Even though the sword was masks avatar, cyric wasn't a follower of mask, he didn't worship anyone if i remember right, so the choices were made more or less by cyric himself, mask didn't have actual power over him, all he could do was suggest things, and mask didn't aid cyric in any other way than the fact that while holding the sword that was masks avatar cyric could hurt other divine avatars. aside from all that sponsorship or not he's still the first to ascend directly greater godhood, without having been an avatar... since midnight carried the essence of mystra for a while before Ao made her the new goddess of magic. Kelemvor was appointed after the ToT... lastly pretty much everyone on Toril or at least FR knows at least a rumor about Cyric's actions during the ToT... those are my opinions
Zsych 01-27-06, 12:07 PM	What i know of Sammaster is from the 2E Cult of the Dragon sourcebook. In which he basically died. When and where did he come back? ... Poor guy getting killed by a god, he really should've taken up worship of Shar after his falling out with Mystra :) As for the whole magic without the weave... it's possible that Epic spells may derive from raw magic, or raw magic may be even harder to control than Epic spells. Either way, the weave seems to be a way to replicate normal magic within the Crystal Sphere. Magic seems to exist fine elsewhere without needing Mystra. I remember Elminster jumping to some other plane, when there was trouble with the weave, and magic was fine there.