Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Puggins 10-11-07, 02:41 PM	I know most of you probably didn't live through the Time of Troubles storyline- it was the transitional storyline between 1e and 2e FR. Eleven gods were killed. A few more (Tyr in particular) got radically altered. The plot device used to insitgate the whole thing (Overgod Ao) was far, far cheesier than what they're doing now. All the gods started walking the earth and causing all sorts of trouble. Several bad modules were written. Many bad novels were too. And yet the Realms survived and flourished. I'm not saying that the Spellplague and all of its side effects won't be horrible, but I'd say that history shows that the Realms can survive all sorts of bad writing and bad ideas, and I like the current crop of writers/designers a whole lot better than the ones churning stuff out back then. I'm looking forward to this transition a heckuva lot more than the Time of Troubles. And really, aren't all the rushes to judgment here just a wee bit premature? If the transition turns out to be wildly popular, what are the Chicken Littles going to say? Wouldn't it be better to register some guarded reservations and concerns and keep the torches and pitchforks in the closet a wee bit longer?
Alediran 10-11-07, 02:48 PM	If it turns to be good then we will be relieved that the realms didn't had ToT 2.0. If it's not the case, the realms are going to have a emergency crash landing. How much do you know of the changes they are going to make to the Realms? It's important to know because if you haven't read them you will be surprised.
Puggins 10-11-07, 02:57 PM	If it turns to be good then we will be relieved that the realms didn't had ToT 2.0. If it's not the case, the realms are going to have a emergency crash landing. Well, ToT 1.0 didn't cause the Realms to crash and burn. As per designer diaries, they're really not trying to change the geography all that much. the Spellplague could be a massive bullet in the heart of the Realms, but odds are overwhelmingly against it, honestly. They're not trying to kill the setting, remember- they're interested in us buying books, not in alienating us. How much do you know of the changes they are going to make to the Realms? It's important to know because if you haven't read them you will be surprised. I'm up to date with all the officially announced changes. I don't see anything as dramatic as ToT.
Thinblade 10-11-07, 02:58 PM	Yes, actually, I DO remember the Time of Troubles. And I agree that the novels were the worst books TSR ever published (until Return of the Archwizards, that is). However, drawing the conclusion "The Realms survived the ToT, therefore it will survive the Spellplague" doesn't work. Yes, we've drawn comparisons between the two, but there are many more differences. If you remember 1e vs 2e, you'll agree that the systems were, more or less, the same. A couple classes disappeared (assassin, barbarian), a couple got restructured (illusionist, bard), and in-game, a couple of cities were hurt (Waterdeep), and a couple of dieties got swapped around. However, let's look at what is happening in the 4e switch that didn't happen in the ToT: * Time moved forward a year, if that. In fact, you got to play through the events, if you wanted. We're moving forward way more than a year, and the designers have pretty much said don't bother trying to convert your old characters, or play through the changes. * Most of the gods survived. Most of the gods are dying/disappearing/vanishing with their planes. * Most major NPC's survived, many completely unscathed. ALL human NPC's are dying, from old age, if nothing else. * The magic system, which remained constant from First through Third editions (with minor tweaks to spell lists and such) is being COMPLETELY REPLACED. It may be that the 4e conversion/Spellplague will work out. At this point, we don't know. But you cannot say that it will work simply because the ToT worked, because there are way too many drastic differences between the two to make a proper comparison.
Thinblade 10-11-07, 03:01 PM	As per designer diaries, they're really not trying to change the geography all that much. Ah, but the Realms isn't the land. At least, not mostly. It's the people. Land without people is just scenery, pretty, but meaningless. It's only when you add people that you get a place worth mentioning. And what they certainly ARE doing, which they specifically did NOT do in the ToT, is getting rid of the people.
SgtAnjay 10-11-07, 03:09 PM	I know most of you probably didn't live through the Time of Troubles storyline- it was the transitional storyline between 1e and 2e FR.Even alot of those who weren'tn around for it are well aware of what the Time of Troubles were, especially since alot of what they're dealing with right now are, in essence, aftershocks from plot lines introduced by that event. And btw, you seem to be implying that those criticizing Spellplague are doing so from ignorance; really, all it takes is very little time to look at who's doing the criticizing and you'll see this is not the case. Eleven gods were killed.We have 9 confirmed so far, with shrinking the pantheon and demoting deities to servitors promised. The entire nature of how the deities in Faerun are structured are thus going to be significantly altered. A few more (Tyr in particular) got radically altered.Umm.....have you read the events of the Year of Three Streams Blooded? The plot device used to insitgate the whole thing (Overgod Ao) was far, far cheesier than what they're doing now.All they're doing now is using an up-powered version of Karsus's Folly. At least the gods being banished to walk the Earth in punishment for their crimes had a flare of originality. Several bad modules were written. Many bad novels were too. And yet the Realms survived and flourished.So...wait what? We should embrace this kind of thing even though it caused bad modules and novels for the sole reason that it probably won't kill the Realms? I'm not saying that the Spellplague and all of its side effects won't be horrible, but I'd say that history shows that the Realms can survive all sorts of bad writing and bad ideas, and I like the current crop of writers/designers a whole lot better than the ones churning stuff out back then. I'm looking forward to this transition a heckuva lot more than the Time of Troubles. You're right, the Realms can survive a lot of bad writing and bad ideas. That doesn't mean we should be happy with bad writing and bad ideas. Seeing as how I can't "look forward" to the Time of Troubles, and how this event is more catastrophic (I dont recall the Time of Troubles changing the very face of Faerun or it being described as the terrible beginning of the new world; it doesn't even take up more than one year in the GHotR), I'm not sure how much this should make anyone optimistic at all. And really, aren't all the rushes to judgment here just a wee bit premature? If the transition turns out to be wildly popular, what are the Chicken Littles going to say? Wouldn't it be better to register some guarded reservations and concerns and keep the torches and pitchforks in the closet a wee bit longer? Very nice, we dont like the new changes they've already revealed, and yet we're both premature and Chicken Littles? These new realms they're creating may be a good place to adventure in; I'm hoping its not only that, but springs forth among a wealth of great stories and plots. The fact is, very little of what they've brought out seems like great stories or plots to many of us. You bringing up how flawed previous events like this one have been doesn't inspire confidence, and I dont know how you think it should.
SgtAnjay 10-11-07, 03:17 PM	They're not trying to kill the setting, remember- they're interested in us buying books, not in alienating us. They're interested in new gamers and FR detractors buying books; the design intent are tailor made for the latter, and stated as promoting the former as a goal. I've seen very little to point to them caring about alienating people.
Puggins 10-11-07, 03:19 PM	Yes, actually, I DO remember the Time of Troubles. And I agree that the novels were the worst books TSR ever published (until Return of the Archwizards, that is). However, drawing the conclusion "The Realms survived the ToT, therefore it will survive the Spellplague" doesn't work. Yes, we've drawn comparisons between the two, but there are many more differences. Well, I'm not trying to reach that conclusion. I'm just making an observation- if the Realms survived (and thrived) despite the flaming turd that was ToT, then I'm skeptical (though not convinced) that the Spellplague will break them. If you remember 1e vs 2e, you'll agree that the systems were, more or less, the same. A couple classes disappeared (assassin, barbarian), a couple got restructured (illusionist, bard), and in-game, a couple of cities were hurt (Waterdeep), and a couple of dieties got swapped around. Well, lots of dieties were changed profoundly. My favorite Good god (Tyr) and Evil god (Myrkul) were blinded and killed, respectively. Bunches of others were created and or killed. So far I'm seeing a handful of Gods die or change allegiance. Hell, only two major gods die so far (Helm and Mystra). That's not as radical. However, let's look at what is happening in the 4e switch that didn't happen in the ToT: * Time moved forward a year, if that. In fact, you got to play through the events, if you wanted. We're moving forward way more than a year, and the designers have pretty much said don't bother trying to convert your old characters, or play through the changes. Well, I don't think they've said that literally, no? Why NOT play through the crisis? I'm sure you'll be able to if you want. * Most of the gods survived. Most of the gods are dying/disappearing/vanishing with their planes. Is there a list of dead gods that I'm missing? Some of the Minor Dwarf gods die, a couple of drow gods get offed, Helm's dead and Mystra gets murdered (which, incidentally, I find to be brilliantly unorthodox). I don't see as massive a slaughter as ToT. * Most major NPC's survived, many completely unscathed. ALL human NPC's are dying, from old age, if nothing else. Meh... human, halfling and Orc NPCS, maybe. Dwarves, Gnomes and Elves will have a couple more gray hairs. And most of the powerful human NPCs have existed for hundreds of years already, so they're not going anywhere because of old age. Sure, Piergarion won't be Waterdeep's open lord anymore, but I'd hardly call that a tectonic shift in the realms. * The magic system, which remained constant from First through Third editions (with minor tweaks to spell lists and such) is being COMPLETELY REPLACED. Well, this is a mechanical issue, which really has nothing to do with the Realms themselves. We can just as easily say that Eliminster used the 4e magic system all along. I don't have a problem with the changes, especially if they fix the gaping mechanical holes that the current system sports. It may be that the 4e conversion/Spellplague will work out. At this point, we don't know. But you cannot say that it will work simply because the ToT worked, because there are way too many drastic differences between the two to make a proper comparison. Agreed! I certainly won't say it'll be jim dandy. But I've seen lots of posts very confidently state the exact opposite and call for the heads of the designers. That's at least as bad.
Puggins 10-11-07, 03:30 PM	So...wait what? We should embrace this kind of thing even though it caused bad modules and novels for the sole reason that it probably won't kill the Realms? Well, maybe I wasn't being clear. I don't think the spellplague is going to be a bad storyline, since I've only heard what few hints we have of it. Even if it is bad, the Realms will likely survive. I'm not saying you should embrace it, but why not give it a chance? You're right, the Realms can survive a lot of bad writing and bad ideas. That doesn't mean we should be happy with bad writing and bad ideas. But how can you be sure that the spellplague will be a bad idea? You don't like a couple of the results mentioned in the Grand History, sure. But why does that mean it'll be horrible. And I'm not implying that you in particular think it will be horrible. I'm just pointing out that many, many people have already judged the entirety of the Spellplague sight unseen, which seems awfully rapid.
SgtAnjay 10-11-07, 03:55 PM	Well, maybe I wasn't being clear. I don't think the spellplague is going to be a bad storyline, since I've only heard what few hints we have of it. Even if it is bad, the Realms will likely survive. I'm not saying you should embrace it, but why not give it a chance?Give what a chance? All I have to go on are the details they've released. The details they've released are the things I dislike. Should I then be blindly optimistic? But how can you be sure that the spellplague will be a bad idea? You don't like a couple of the results mentioned in the Grand History, sure. But why does that mean it'll be horrible.I'm more sure it'll be a bad idea than you are sure it'll be good, because I'm basing my dislike on actually released details (which, by the way, amount to more than just what's in Grand History), and you seem to be basing your opinion on the fact that this doesn't seem as bad as the Time of Troubles. And I'm not implying that you in particular think it will be horrible. I'm just pointing out that many, many people have already judged the entirety of the Spellplague sight unseen, which seems awfully rapid.Oh, there are definately zealots, you're right. Overreaction is definately part of human nature; I tend to just take it to heart that at least people care enough about the Realms to get that passionate and roll my eyes at the rest. Of course, overreacting to the other side, "everything will be great because it will!", isn't any better. To address several over points you've brought up.... Well, I don't think they've said that literally, no? Why NOT play through the crisis? I'm sure you'll be able to if you want.No, they've said that literally. End your campaigns, dont bother to convert. Those were their words. Well, lots of dieties were changed profoundly. My favorite Good god (Tyr) and Evil god (Myrkul) were blinded and killed, respectively. Bunches of others were created and or killed. So far I'm seeing a handful of Gods die or change allegiance. Hell, only two major gods die so far (Helm and Mystra). That's not as radical. Is there a list of dead gods that I'm missing? Some of the Minor Dwarf gods die, a couple of drow gods get offed, Helm's dead and Mystra gets murdered (which, incidentally, I find to be brilliantly unorthodox). I don't see as massive a slaughter as ToT.For one, you seem to think they've stopped killing deities. This contradicts the fact that they've stated a smaller pantheon is one of their goals, and the fact that the planar effects of this apocalypse leaves every non-greater deity who can't reach a greater deity ally's divine realm before its too late vulnerable. Furthermore, they've said many deities are becoming servitors.....not lesser deities, or demi-deities, they're becomming servitors of their superiors. They're going from ARES, God of War, to St. Ares of Olympus, patron saint of war whose followers are a sect of the Church of Conflict. This is a major restructuring of the way the deities have always been. And lastly.......Mystra getting killed is brilliantly unorthodox?!? Maybe I didn't understand that properly. I mean....the current Mystra is the fourth goddess of the Weave! Compared to other portfolios, Mystras are expendable and a dime a dozen. Meh... human, halfling and Orc NPCS, maybe. Dwarves, Gnomes and Elves will have a couple more gray hairs. And most of the powerful human NPCs have existed for hundreds of years already, so they're not going anywhere because of old age. Sure, Piergarion won't be Waterdeep's open lord anymore, but I'd hardly call that a tectonic shift in the realms. Uh, the design team also stated they want to kill the NPCs. The only ones known to be safe are Elminster and Drizzt.
Alediran 10-11-07, 04:02 PM	Magic will cease to work properly for years. This gives them the excuse to kill characters who extended their lives with magic. They want to kill the powerful NPCs to make the crybabies who complain that their characters aren't the "uber 3ww11111111 1337 h4x0r5"
Puggins 10-11-07, 05:08 PM	Give what a chance? All I have to go on are the details they've released. The details they've released are the things I dislike. Should I then be blindly optimistic? Absolutely not. Niether extreme is healthy, methinks. I'm more sure it'll be a bad idea than you are sure it'll be good, because I'm basing my dislike on actually released details (which, by the way, amount to more than just what's in Grand History), and you seem to be basing your opinion on the fact that this doesn't seem as bad as the Time of Troubles. Well, I'm not at all sure it'll be a good idea, so you being more sure it's a bad idea is almost a given. I'm mainly on the wait-and-see sideline. I happen to like a lot of Richard Baker's work though, so annoyance with the way Helm dies is offset. Oh, there are definately zealots, you're right. Overreaction is definately part of human nature; I tend to just take it to heart that at least people care enough about the Realms to get that passionate and roll my eyes at the rest. Of course, overreacting to the other side, "everything will be great because it will!", isn't any better. Nope, equally bad. No, they've said that literally. End your campaigns, dont bother to convert. Those were their words. Reference? I believe you, I just want to read stuff about the Spellplague that I've missed. And lastly.......Mystra getting killed is brilliantly unorthodox?!? Maybe I didn't understand that properly. I mean....the current Mystra is the fourth goddess of the Weave! Compared to other portfolios, Mystras are expendable and a dime a dozen. The fact that she gets assassinated by an archenemy that has been set up as almost a fall guy (Cyric) is very cool. Good fails in a spectacularly anticlimatic fashion. That Cyric managed to off her is the most positive story development in years, I think. Sets quite the somber tone. You got the impression (at least I did) that she was being set up to be the bestest Goddess of Magic EVER!!! That she got wiped out after being a main character in bunches of books is novel, IMO.
Suin Bahhar 10-11-07, 05:29 PM	The whole thing does ooze with story potential, I agree to that much.
johnkretzer 10-11-07, 05:57 PM	The fact that she gets assassinated by an archenemy that has been set up as almost a fall guy (Cyric) is very cool. Good fails in a spectacularly anticlimatic fashion. That Cyric managed to off her is the most positive story development in years, I think. Sets quite the somber tone. You got the impression (at least I did) that she was being set up to be the bestest Goddess of Magic EVER!!! That she got wiped out after being a main character in bunches of books is novel, IMO. Yeah that is great except for running games that where the PCs have been doing everything to stop Cyric...now tell your players everything they have done is meaningless. Because of what would be called in any RPG, cheese. Also has characters I liked Mystra over Cyric by 1000x. And also Cyric will not face the consequences of his actions. There is not a single reason that you can give that he should still be alive after this. Personaly I wouldn't let a kid near the FR now. Finally I we all know that most people's FR campaigns have differences for canon. But most people tried to keep it as close to the common base as possible. Because it makes it easier for new people to join your game...but with these changes they just threw the base out and created a new one. I think that in of it self is a bad move. They could have gotten the changes they wanted without this drastic of a changes.
Puggins 10-11-07, 06:11 PM	Yeah that is great except for running games that where the PCs have been doing everything to stop Cyric...now tell your players everything they have done is meaningless. Because of what would be called in any RPG, cheese. You think they have to take into account every single Campaign run in the Realms? Come on now. Plenty of bad things have happened in the Realms in the past ten+ years. How about those campaigns that featured characters who defended Azoun IV? Do you think they should not have published Death of the Dragon because it would make those campaigns meaningless? Also has characters I liked Mystra over Cyric by 1000x. And also Cyric will not face the consequences of his actions. There is not a single reason that you can give that he should still be alive after this. Personaly I wouldn't let a kid near the FR now. So every bad guy absolutely HAS to be brought to justice. Check. I'm betting you hated Usual Suspects, eh? Sorry, but that's veering a bit too much into faerie tale land for my taste. That said, this is purely a taste issue, and as such I'm not going to debate it with you, because neither of us are wrong (or right, for that matter).
Rauric 10-11-07, 06:17 PM	"Also has characters I liked Mystra over Cyric by 1000x. And also Cyric will not face the consequences of his actions. There is not a single reason that you can give that he should still be alive after this. Personaly I wouldn't let a kid near the FR now." Whoa. Why not? How many evil BBEG have been getting away with murder and mayhem for years and not really getting their just deserts? Plus tell your players whatever you want. Kill Cyric off in your game.
Thinblade 10-11-07, 06:29 PM	Personally, Cyric getting away with it (though he doesn't, actually, he gets imprisoned for 1000 years, which could very well lead to his death from lack of worshippers as Bane et al go after his portfolios) is one of the few things that DOESN'T bother me. Like I said, I've been around the Realms for a long time, and from my point of view the only good thing WotC did was get rid of the stupid CoC that forced evil to always be defeated. I didn't particularly like my Zhentarim to be Keystone Kops. And yes, all of us have made changes, big or small, from the published Realms in our games. That's not the point. Even if your game's different, you can get new products (well, the good ones, like Serpent Kingdoms, or Power of Faerun, not 2e retreads like Underdark and Silver Marches) and get shiny new Realmslore and pretty plot hooks to use in your games. I've never converted my games to 3e, but I've used plenty of lore published under 3e. With its wholesale slaughter and massive time jump, I won't be able to get ANYTHING from 4e.
selunatic2397 10-11-07, 06:35 PM	My players have asked that Cyric be dropped to just a demigod of murder... I have told them that I have no problem with that request... Cyric seems to be the biggest Mary Sue in existence. :yuck:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-11-07, 07:09 PM	I'm not saying that the Spellplague and all of its side effects won't be horrible, but I'd say that history shows that the Realms can survive all sorts of bad writing and bad ideas, and I like the current crop of writers/designers a whole lot better than the ones churning stuff out back then. I'm looking forward to this transition a heckuva lot more than the Time of Troubles. Just because this transition might be better than the ToT doesn't mean I"ll end up liking it. From what I'm hearing, I'm not liking it. The Realms may be intact, but if it moves too far away from what I liked about it, what is that supposed to mean to me? And really, aren't all the rushes to judgment here just a wee bit premature? Nope. I loved Mystra and several other gods, and those gods are going to be gone now. I loved Halaster and Sylune, and they're gone now. It had me POed, and doesn't fit in with my plans for MY Realms. If the transition turns out to be wildly popular, what are the Chicken Littles going to say? Who gives a damn if it turns out to be wildly popular? If *I* don't like the 4E Realms, I'm not gonna buy sourcebooks for it! For the record, I'm not a "Chicken Little", just a person who is dismayed by how the setting is being reshaped (and yes, we DO know what some of the changes are at this point).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-11-07, 07:35 PM	You got the impression (at least I did) that she was being set up to be the bestest Goddess of Magic EVER!!! I never got that impression. *shrug*
MerrikCale 10-11-07, 09:17 PM	I miss Bhaal
Ramenth 10-11-07, 11:41 PM	The whole thing does ooze with story potential, I agree to that much. Except that they've stated their not writing a novel/series of novels about the Spellplague. It'll be mentioned tangentially in the books, but it will not get any focus. Not even an Anthology. So there goes the idea that its a good story. At least ToT had the potential for hilarity... What I'm basically noticing in this arguments is that the people who support the changes, WoTC included, are basically saying "Yes, the realms is changing significantly. But its still the realms. Yeah, we're decades in the future, and many gods and familiar characters are dead, and the Spellplague has decimated Civilization as we know it, but its still the realms." And, generally, the people opposed to the changes respond "The realms is not a geographic location. Its a thing made up of the people in it. If you change the realms drastically, it may be the same place, but its not the same setting." look. Yes, the realms themselves will survive. If they're not recognizeable as the same setting, however, they havent really survived. If all the familar faces are dead and all the cities are in ruins... Its not the realms any more than the realms would be the realms if they had giant robots instead of Magic.
KismetRose 10-12-07, 02:43 AM	I wasn't around when the Time of Troubles happened; I came into FR with Baldur's Gate and 3rd edition. I never read any associated novels. I just took the event as it came, and if some parts of it were cheesy, well, I blamed the novels. ;) I have been wondering about folks who played before, during, and after the ToT. I am really curious to know what folks thought about all of that chaos while it was happening. How did it affect people's games? How long did it take for things to smooth over?
Charles Phipps 10-12-07, 08:24 AM	Yeah that is great except for running games that where the PCs have been doing everything to stop Cyric...now tell your players everything they have done is meaningless. Because of what would be called in any RPG, cheese. Why is this bad? Your player characters are facing a truly formidable and dangerous enemy. With this, you can tell them that they probably delayed Mystra's death by many years and also can reaffirm their desire to destroy him for good. Also has characters I liked Mystra over Cyric by 1000x. And also Cyric will not face the consequences of his actions. There is not a single reason that you can give that he should still be alive after this. Personaly I wouldn't let a kid near the FR now. Because no one has the power to destroy him right now or wants to risk doing so? After this God Cataclysm, Cyric is almost the new Tharizdun.
Suin Bahhar 10-12-07, 09:15 AM	Except that they've stated their not writing a novel/series of novels about the Spellplague. It'll be mentioned tangentially in the books, but it will not get any focus. Not even an Anthology. So there goes the idea that its a good story. At least ToT had the potential for hilarity... What I'm basically noticing in this arguments is that the people who support the changes, WoTC included, are basically saying "Yes, the realms is changing significantly. But its still the realms. Yeah, we're decades in the future, and many gods and familiar characters are dead, and the Spellplague has decimated Civilization as we know it, but its still the realms." And, generally, the people opposed to the changes respond "The realms is not a geographic location. Its a thing made up of the people in it. If you change the realms drastically, it may be the same place, but its not the same setting." look. Yes, the realms themselves will survive. If they're not recognizeable as the same setting, however, they havent really survived. If all the familar faces are dead and all the cities are in ruins... Its not the realms any more than the realms would be the realms if they had giant robots instead of Magic. Yeah. I hear you. But I like playing in the realms and from the sounds of it I'd still have a blast playing there. That is if they don't advance the timeline too far ahead. Then some of the recognizable places and faces of the realms could be revisited to see how they are faring. Some of the thousands of little untold stories could then be finished or picked up upon with some sense. But mostly I don't think the changing of the guard of NPC's or Gods or regions affects my willingness to tell stories so devastatingly I'd stop playing or DMming in the realms. I will continue playing 3.5 if it fits better for the story I currently tell. The mechanics and story need to be really stellar to top that what I already have. If it aint broke... A CENTURY jump. I'm with you there. Only a chance to revisit "your favorite things" with a total facelift or nothing at all. Most human NPC's dead. All stories totally lost in time.
johnkretzer 10-12-07, 04:04 PM	Why is this bad? Your player characters are facing a truly formidable and dangerous enemy. With this, you can tell them that they probably delayed Mystra's death by many years and also can reaffirm their desire to destroy him for good. It is bad because they( who are really high level) have made Cyric almost a lesser power.....as you have said you liked the ToT because the PCs can effect the gods...this just countered that theory. (atleast I think you said that) In other words they had suceeded in saving Mystra. Because no one has the power to destroy him right now or wants to risk doing so? After this God Cataclysm, Cyric is almost the new Tharizdun. They have said they have removed Mystra because they didn't want a mega-goddess who could bully the other gods...well that is great now we have mega-god Cyric. People have said realisticaly how does evil stand a chance with a mega-god like Mystra...reverse the question. The gods should be balanced so that the conflict of gods have to be done though their followers. This actualy allow the PCs to hace a effect on the world. Also Tharizdun in Greyhawk works...in the Realms it really doesn't...or atleast it should Shar that becomes Tharizdun in the Realms.
tete 10-12-07, 07:06 PM	I miss Bhaal Me to... though with all the change ups might be a plausible time to have him make a homebrew comeback :D
Brewhammer 10-12-07, 07:11 PM	I miss Bhaal You kids these days and your wacky murder gods. In my day we didn't have murder gods - it was all fertility this, and war that... and that's the way it was and we liked it! *shakes his old man stick*
Mr_Miscellany 10-12-07, 09:01 PM	I remember those days....reading the Grey Books again and again because they were cool. Then 2nd Edition comes out and it just seemed soooo much better than 1E. But, alas, things in teh Realms were not left untouched. I didn't like reading about Mystra dying. Didn't like it one bit. In fact, I didn't think she could be killed until Helm went and did it. And even then, it just didn't make sense. Why would Mystra hurl herself full-on into Helm? It just didn't make sense that she'd throw her divine life away in such a manner. I still don't get it. But the adventures relating to the ToT were cool, even if a little railroady, and the novels that extended from it about Elminster, the Maulagrym and the Rangers Three were a delight to read. Like the old TV song says, "....THOSE were the days!" :)
Charles Phipps 10-12-07, 09:36 PM	You know, I wonder what's different about me from everyone else. Because, my group and I seem to be the only people here who welcome the changes. All of the changes. I think part of my problem was the fact that my group was a little burnt out on 3E Realms. Our group has played together, intermittingly, on and off since the Time of Troubles. It wasn't until the Dawn of the Internet when what got me interested in the Realms in the Godsfall was revealed to be the widely unpopular event that it was. To me, and my twelve year old self, it had been the coolest thing ever. For me; this is an excellent opportunity to break out the character of Fuji the Samurai, Rose the Charlatan Bard, Imzel and Musim of Rashemi, and Zasheria the Sexy Monk of Ilmater. The last time we'd left them, they'd helped kill Samaster and left much of The Cult of Dragons in ruins. It had seemed, after that, there wasn't much urgency to their mission and the campaign momentum had been lost. Now, Mystra is dead and our old enemy Cyric has killed her. The planes are utterly devastated and the Chosen are down. That, my friends, is DRAMA! Plus, we can lower everyone's levels down with the Spell Plague as justification and increase the danger of the setting again back to interesting heights. So, bravo, WOTC. You've saved my campaign.
Charles Phipps 10-12-07, 09:37 PM	Why would Mystra hurl herself full-on into Helm? It just didn't make sense that she'd throw her divine life away in such a manner. Because as a 30th level or so Magic user, she thought she could win?
johnkretzer 10-13-07, 01:12 AM	Because as a 30th level or so Magic user, she thought she could win? Um... a 30the level magic user that charges a 30th level fighter who still has his divine powers is going to loose...heck even without his divine powers in 2d edition the wizards is going to definilty loose verses a fighter off half the level.
johnkretzer 10-13-07, 01:25 AM	Now, Mystra is dead and our old enemy Cyric has killed her. The planes are utterly devastated and the Chosen are down. That, my friends, is DRAMA! Plus, we can lower everyone's levels down with the Spell Plague as justification and increase the danger of the setting again back to interesting heights. So, bravo, WOTC. You've saved my campaign. That is great for you. I have played in D&D campaigns that have high drama and have enjoyed them. Though I like games that are realistic and feel more organic then drama can produce. Also those level were raised without any real explanation in the first place...why can't they just correct them the same way? I would perfer changes that would make us both happy...or atleast interested another that with some minor tweaks we can make it work for us.
johnkretzer 10-13-07, 03:27 AM	You think they have to take into account every single Campaign run in the Realms? Come on now. Plenty of bad things have happened in the Realms in the past ten+ years. How about those campaigns that featured characters who defended Azoun IV? Do you think they should not have published Death of the Dragon because it would make those campaigns meaningless? Actualy not at all but they should try not to make these changes that are too big of things. Also about Cyric getting away from it...in a novel I could live with it because it is a novel. In a RPG that should have the reality that action have consequences should be made to pay. He got caught and the 1000 year imprisonment is going to hold as it has been stated they ended this because they want to tell more stories about Cyric. It is preference which a good game designer leave out . They shouldn't end stories because they want them to end. This is bad for bussiness. Also they aren't even being consistent with ToT. Torm and Bane killed each other. Torm was brought back to life because he was serving his portfolio. Bane wasn't. Though he was following his porfolio. He caused major Stirfe, tried to impose his Tyrrany not only on the Realms but on the Heavens themsleves. Heck stealing those tablets followed exactly his porfolio to a tee. Yet...Cyric as done pretty much the same thing and get the defense he is only follwing his portfolio. I perfer more consistency.
richgreen01 10-13-07, 04:15 AM	Hi, I've been running Realms campaigns since the Old Grey Box and ran the Avatar series of modules when they came out as well as reading the novels. We enjoyed playing them, particularly because they involved travelling around quite a bit of the Realms, but like the original Dragonlance series were railroaded to a certain extent and you had to have Midnight, Cyric et al in your party for the adventures to work properly. Since then, I think there have been better adventures that allow you to play through a major campaign event without tripping over or feeling overshadowed by the big NPCs (eg The Horde Trilogy). Looking back on the Avatar series now, this was the first of many RSEs. The other early novels (Darkwalker on Moonshae, Crystal Shard, Azure Bonds etc) were set in relatively small areas and didn't impact on campaigns unless you wanted them to. I stopped reading the novels after the Maztica trilogy and the first few Harpers ones as I felt like they were being churned out on a production line so I'm not really up to speed on the FR metaplot from 1360DR to 1374DR. I've read and enjoyed Grand History of the Realms tremendously but obviously things are summarized very briefly. It's hard to tell if the Spellplague is a bigger deal than the Time of Troubles or some of the other RSEs -- it certainly sounds like it is at least as big. I think the fact that so many novels and products were set around 1358DR gives the impression that the Time of Troubles was recovered from very quickly by the people of Faerun but I don't think this is intentional or makes much sense! Anyway, time will tell if the Spellplague is a cool story element as well as a way to change the Realms from 3.x to 4e. Cheers Richard
Charles Phipps 10-13-07, 01:18 PM	Um... a 30the level magic user that charges a 30th level fighter who still has his divine powers is going to loose...heck even without his divine powers in 2d edition the wizards is going to definilty loose verses a fighter off half the level. Yes, obviously that's what happened. That doesn't mean Mystra didn't think she couldn't make Helm back off. The gods were pretty arrogant types even then and it strikes me as perfectly in character she either thought Helm wouldn't kill her or she could make him hesitate. That is great for you. I have played in D&D campaigns that have high drama and have enjoyed them. Though I like games that are realistic and feel more organic then drama can produce. Also those level were raised without any real explanation in the first place...why can't they just correct them the same way? I would perfer changes that would make us both happy...or atleast interested another that with some minor tweaks we can make it work for us. Overall, I'm interested in seeing where they go with this. Let's face it, I'm going to be upset that we never got to see Azoun the Fifth in action. That Caladnei, Alusair, and a lot of other friends are dead. However, I think there's ample room to detail these stories in the build up to Fourth Edition. I think that with Ed Greenwood's presence, we're going to see something still distinctly Realms. It's not like Dark Sun where it's a one trick pony that if you remove the Sorcerer Kings, it's not the setting anymore.
meto30 10-14-07, 07:23 PM	I am running my third session this afternoon, and it is three weeks to Midsummer, 1375. I'm too late to start applying new story anyway. But wait. I can apply all the stuff and say things are going Whack. PCs will lead a holy crusade against the fate that looms over Toril. First I need to create a BBEG. He will be a cleric of Cyric. He's name will be Rich Baker...