Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Magic_Mario 01-24-05, 10:16 AM	Okay, I'm new to this a world of a friend of mine. I'm a human Paladin of the God Malgor (one of the Gods he made I believe) and I was sent to the curent party to travel with the last 2 dwarfs in the world. They are supposed to build some forges or something to reforge the dwarfen race. Anyway, we found a drawf (there were only supposed to be 2 left, and they were both in our party) in the temple of Bane hanging from hooks and whatnot. We get him down and out of the temple. We get out of the underground where we were and we wake up in a field. Later that day Watse, one of the dwarfs, gets a little pouch from his God. Its all tied in string and no one really wonts to mess with it cuzz Watse's God is the God of secrets. One of the rangers in the party decides to spend the next 7 hours trying to open the knots and stuff to get whats inside, out. After 7 hours I find him and myself in the compony of a small deck (this leads to nowhere good, fast). The ranger wakes Watse and asks him what the deck is. Watse replys that the deck is pure evil. Well I detect evil on it and nothing. The other Paladin in the party hears this and wakes up and draws his sword at the word of "evil". We calm him down and wake everyone else up. The ranger, not knowing what the deck even does, just picks it up and thumbs through it. He draws like 8 cards not even knowing he did it and well he pretty much got everything good except one card and it was the get rid of everything magicial. he had no magical items so nothing was bad. One of the fighters in the party picks up the deck and draws one card. The DM calls him out of the room and comes back and says the guy turns into a book. The guy got a wish and wished to be a God. The only thing is, is that you have to have followers to be a god. Without even thinking of it the dwarf we found in the temple picks up the deck and draws from it. He continues to draw from it until he finds a wish. He wishs from youth and it returns. As does he, to his youth and back to a Durger (sp?). The other Paladin in the party is like, "Gasp, Durger. MUST KILL!" Note this guy showed no signs oh wonting to harm either of the dwarfs and all he does is take one step towards Watse and the Paladin cuts him basicly in half. I didn't even enter the battle and my character was very confused why a Paladin of good just killed a defenseless, man. We argue for about 10 minutes because he was mad because I didn't jump in the battle. Basicly he killed a good Durger just because he THOUGHT he was evil. No Detect Evil or anything, just a slash in the face. The Paladin then goes on to say that the guy had to be evil because he was a Durgerm, this isn't always the case. Part of my quest is to find a Lawful Good Drow that was once a leader of my city I came from. Anyways I was the only one who got any exp because I was the only one who didn't enter the battle. I got 1k but I could have gotten 2k if I had've jumped in to help the Durger. Funny because after the fight I draw one card and get a firebreathing helmet and 50k exp! Anyways after all of this crap (sorry) who do you think was in the wrong. Should I have jumped in to help the Durger or should I have of helped the Paladin kill the defenseless guy?
Another Gnome 01-24-05, 01:21 PM	Ah... those decks of many things falling from the sky bring back so many memories. :D Anyway, the paladin was wrong and should lose his status. That's about it. Seriously. It's questionable for a paladin to kill someone he knows for sure to be evil if that being has actually done nothing, but killing someone for no other reason whatsoever than that said someone looks like an evil guy - not to mention said someone was the paladin's buddy just a split second ago - is going WAAAAAY overboard.
Aimian Silverflash 01-25-05, 01:24 AM	I'll second what Gnome said. The guy was waaay out of line, especially as a paladin. A great man once said "Lawfully Good doesn't mean Lawfully Stupid."
warlockco 01-25-05, 03:11 AM	Yep, I have to agree. Even a Paladin that wanders into a Tavern and does Detect Evil has not right to go up to those evil people and slay them outright. Just because someone is Evil doesn't mean they have broken any laws. The Paladin should lose Paladin status until he is able to Atone, and that should not be an easy task.
Magic_Mario 01-25-05, 09:27 AM	Well I think the DM lets a lot of the stuff the guy does slide because his Paladin isn't a Paladin in the since of the word. He protects everyone from everything evil but he doesn't keep himself like a Paladin should. He drinks (his God sends wine and beer to him), he doesn't wash, he keeps his clothing in rags and his armor is the dirtyest my character has ever seen. I don't know what God his worships but my character looks down at him because of all of this stuff he's doing when I'm around.
ForgottenCode 01-29-05, 02:29 AM	Paladins don't have to wear shining armor and ride a horse. They come in all kinds... so just because he's not the typical paladin, doesn't mean he isn't one. Still, I would strip his powers if he did something like that on my watch.
warlockco 01-29-05, 03:13 AM	Paladins don't have to wear shining armor and ride a horse. They come in all kinds... so just because he's not the typical paladin, doesn't mean he isn't one. Still, I would strip his powers if he did something like that on my watch. Yep. However, his actions were entirely appropriate for a Paladin of Slaughter (Unearth Arcana) or an Antipaladin (Dragon #312) both of which are CE Paladin classes.
Muddman 01-29-05, 06:54 PM	Ya, each paladin has their own way of doing things. I played a dirty, smelly mess of a paladin once. He lived in the woods and acted more like a ranger than a paladin, but thats just what he prefered, he hated cities. As for this paladin, he definatly needs to lose his status. The fact that someone is a duergar is something to maybe draw your sword over and get an explanation about, but not cut him down without a word. As for cutting down evil people, some churches are more lenient about that sort of stuff. Some see all evil as something to be errandicatted. Here is a story about what happened to us in a dungeon, and I want your opinion about it. We are going through a dungeon and we come upon a drow woman tatooed with symbols of lloth on her skin (in white as to show up). She tells us who imprisoned her and where to find them (an illithid if memory serves). The Paladin detects evil while she's talking, and her aura is strong. Her tirade over, she expects us to release her. My character (a CN halfling barbarian) takes his sword ready to bash the lock, but the paladin says no, she can't be aloud to live, she's evil. My character has no problem with this, so the paladin puts his holy avenger thru her head while she spits insults at us. The DM has no problem with what he did, since a paladin's job is to hunt down and kill evil. I don't really have issue with it either, but this situation reminds me of it, what do you guys think?
Alac Luin 01-29-05, 07:15 PM	Killing an unarmed defensless captive is not good. She was not doing evil. Did the paladin do anything to make her see the error of her ways? Offer redemtion? This captive was also being repressed by evil, the evil that was active was the captors, not the captive. It sounds like the paladin ignored the active evil, and took the easy "evil" to eradicate. I guess it depends on this paladin's deity, but I'd think Ilmatter would have issues (protect and aid the oppresed...). I'd have issues with it, but as a DM, it also depends on what the rest of the story was on why this drow was being held.
Julias_Redford 01-30-05, 01:25 AM	Alignment and its properties are always a contravercy in my game. We have arguments about them daily and I have done so much searching and studying into what exactly should be considered leaniancy and what should not. In the case of a Paladin there is not falling from the LG alignment AT ALL which places him in the wrong and your DM not very bright for not issueing the EXP appropriately or not by taking his Paladin Status, also an automatic alignment change would be in order as well. If I were the DM atoning wouldnt even reinstate this person to his status since it is simply murder due to race. This comming from a group of people who have played for about 20+ years Sorry if my spelling sucks
warlockco 01-30-05, 02:45 AM	Something that alot of people tend to forget about Paladins. They are not just Lawful Good, they are Paragons of Lawful Good. They need to set a shining example to others, and slaughtering helpless people no matter how evil or slaughtering someone for their race is not setting a good example.
Dardin_DelSundin 01-30-05, 03:25 AM	Ah.. <sighs> its a good thing most my Paladins die before they reache the level mark of 4.... I prefer to play Chaotic Evil or Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral. For some reason none of my characters ever remain a Good Alignment. And if I do get one that does, the group tends to get them killed. However I must agree, any Paladin to kill someone without a chance to give them redemption, UNLESS its a quest by their deity to kill the person, should have to Atone. If the creature can use Magic <which is a weapon> or uses a weapon then I see no problem as long as they havent USED it against the Paladin. My Paladin once travelled threw Zhentil Keep, at the time he was Level 3 and he sure as heck didnt go about trying to kill every evil guy he came across. If he did, he would been one busy man and dead man... People should read the Book of Exhalted Deeds when making a Paladin, nice feats and spells and information within it, specialy on how Good Alignments should act. :)
The Darkone 01-30-05, 07:51 AM	In the case of the paladin slaying the duegar, I most agree that his status should be stripped away until some huge amount of atoning has been done. First, he attacked without provocation, and second unless the paladin is an idiot he knew the duegar to be his friend. With the paladin attacking the Lloth priestess who was in chains the question is not so clear. Some have suggested that paladin should have offered redemption, but this only implies if the deity he or she follows is one that believes in redemption. A dwarven paladin of Moradin would have every right to slay the drow priestess. Freeing her would just ensure another foe of the dwarven people would live to further cause those he's sworn to protect harm. Even if she never harms a dwarf again herself, she will most likely train more priestess that would cause his people harm. Just an example. LG is not NG.
Power of the Horde 01-30-05, 11:56 PM	LG is not NG. True. LG is supposed to be honorable as well as good.
Erianys Coldrage 01-31-05, 01:21 AM	On the case of the drow priestess, i would say the paladin would release her only to be tied and brought to justice. As most societies have harsh justice, that would result in a death sentence but oh well. Killing her while she is defenseless is against everythings the paladin's code is. The code of conduct of the paladin in the PHB clearly state that a paladin must act with honor (not lying, not cheating, and so forth) and attacking and killing a defenseless person is clearly an unhonorable act. Your friend's paladin should lose his paladin status but could regain it with an atonement spell and an appropriate quest to redeem himself. Now on the main subject, i would say that the paladin who attacked the duergar would instantly lose his paladin status with no hope of restoring it. An alignment change would be appropriate too, something like N with evil tendancies or simply evil. He did after all killed someone with no other reason than pure racist. Your paladin should also ask that the fallen paladin leave immediately, at best, and at worse, attack him because he just did a murder. Anyway that's just my 2 cents so feel free to do what you find right
echobunny 04-15-05, 04:43 PM	I would say the paladin would lose his powers til he atones, that's for sure. Now here's my situation. I was playing what I considered a Neutral Evil character. DM said that I was playing it more Chaotic Neutral, so I let it slide and had really no problems with it. I figured that when she started showing her true nature, then I would just change the alignment on the sheet. She was playing it cool at the time, which is why she didn't seem to really encompass the evil part of NE. However, there came a situation where my character took a male PC into a room and raped him. It was against his will completely. Yet the other players in the game (and all except one character) considered my rape not as evil because my character was female. I still disagree with this.
Another Gnome 04-16-05, 04:59 AM	Can't help with that; discussing sexual crimes is not a suitable topic here.
Cristos Grimblade 04-16-05, 11:06 AM	However, there came a situation where my character took a male PC into a room and raped him. It was against his will completely. Yet the other players in the game (and all except one character) considered my rape not as evil because my character was female. I still disagree with this. Rape is evil, the DM should be able to see that, and if the victim was willing, i.e. he wanted to have sex with her, it isn't rape, now is it? As far as the Paladin, here's the steps I would take as a DM; 1) Strip him of Paladin status, 2) If he wants it back, send him on a quest of great danger to himself, 3) Meanwhile while he is doing said quest (if he wants to, of course), have another paladin hunting him on a charge of Murder most Foul. Don't make it easy either. Murdering someone because of race is a very evil crime to me, and quite frankly, while he may get his paladin status back by completing the quest, who says he'll survive after its over...perhaps he'll die from his greivous wounds. But at least he'll be redeemed, and will have done something good and well for those in that area. Just my :twocents: as a DM.