Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aravilar Eveningfall 07-04-03, 09:20 AM	I noticed that ghouls in the 3rd ed. Monster mannual have a charisma 16 and Wights have charisma 15. I know that it is my campain and should change the abilities to my liking; but I just wanted to check if there was a good reason for it. Ghouls are feral and decaying, eat human flesh and give most people nausea within 10ft. Wights live in places with the aura of death, nurture hatred and are a twisted reflection of the form they held in life. The average moon elf in comparison has a cha 11. Even an average Aasimar (a decendant of a celestial being) only has a cha 13.:confused:
Hexus Eternal 07-04-03, 09:31 AM	Hmm.. well, the way I understood it, was that Charisma represented the force of self, confidence, and strength of being. Thus, somthing that had an inborn power (or at least, a feeling of it) and confidence would have a high charisma. That being said, I never imagined Ghouls to possess any of those qualities, but if you think about it, I suppose you could see that Ghouls have enough sense of self to animate as an undead abomination (as opposed to those that simply release their grip on existance). Oh, and I hope this dosn't degenerate into a debate on 'what is Charisma.' :P
Aravilar Eveningfall 07-04-03, 11:36 AM	I guess your right Hexus, but a pit fiend (undisputed leaders of the Baatezu) only has an average Cha 16. Vampires I could understand having high charisma because of their strenth of being (and domination power); or perhaps even an ancient mummy from a forgotten realm or cult (Cha 15) with their merciless determination (and despair affect); but ghouls seem to be little more then grave doggies in comparison to a greater undead being or even 'Mature Adult Red Dragon ' for that matter (Cha 16)? It would be pretty scary knowing that you are about to be eaten alive by a pack of cunning flesh eaters; but would it be any less frightening then recieving a midnight visit from a 'Duke of Darkness from Hell' (pit fiend) or staring a bad breathed, razor toothed dragon in the chops (both who have unreal fear abilities)? I have a new found respect for how bad ghoulies must really be, but they are still only CR:1? P.S. I might start a ghoul bard PC one day:rolleyes:
FineasBoggs 07-04-03, 12:47 PM	Maybe you just need to assign a comliness rating...sort of a seventh attribute so you can make it a 1 or 2 for the ghoul. Back in the day.
Aravilar Eveningfall 07-05-03, 03:13 AM	The more I think about it; Ghouls really are quite a challange (especially in large numbers or for low level characters). I have underestimated them. HD:13; Int:+2; AC:14; 3 attacks; Paralysis, Create spawn; Turn resistence+2; Fast, quiet, sneeky and quite the good gymnists. They also have intelligence 13; but to what degree do ghouls retain there communication skills they had in life? I also have a new perspective on the dynamics of charisma. THANKS..... P.S. Sorry! new to the board, should have posted in monster section.
Druxus Rhym 07-08-03, 09:15 PM	The reason why they proably have that is NOT for their looks but for their sense of self they might have alot of pride but otherwise the pit fiend thing completely baffles me....
GoodOlWillickers 07-08-03, 09:25 PM	In 2e, Charisma was mostly your power with other people, how well you present yourself and how well you speak. In 3e, they've kept all that but made it so that it's also a creature's "inner strength" for lack of a better term. It's this inner strength that governs uncontrolled magic (non-divine, wizards harness the forces, but don't control them). With monsteers, I usually assign them two Charisma scores. A raw 2e-style Charisma for character interactions and use the core score for magic and such. Or if I don't feel like doing all that, I just run them 2e style. This little blurb can also make for some interesting sorcerers. Peace -Will http://www.angelfire.com/md2/willspalace
GoodOlWillickers 07-08-03, 09:26 PM	Originally posted by Druxus Rhym the pit fiend thing completely baffles me.... Pit fiends would need a high Charisma to rise to the level of pit fiend and command the liegions of Hell
kiwidoc 07-08-03, 09:35 PM	Sorry Hexus :D but there is absolutely no way to answer this question unless you look at what charisma is. There are two things you really need to understand here. * The term charisma as used in the rule books does NOT mean charisma as used in every day language. It does NOT mean charming, and people reacting to you positively. * The ability charisma is a short hand way of describing a group of many factors that govern your ability to control how people react to you - their emotions and thoughts. This means negative type reactions as well as positive. The factors include the ability to scare people; self confidence; knowing how to read people's reactions; being able to skilfully use metalanguage (the things you say that aren't just the words - body language, tone, vocabulary etc); resisting other people manipulating; appearance (good looks or even pitiful looks!) you etc etc . Not all people with high charisma have the same combination of factors that give them the high score. Ghouls and wights control their victims - not through a positive reaction but they paralyise them through sheer terror. Although this is negative it does represent a kind of power over other people's emotions, and fits in with the group of factors represented by the charisma score. Their stench and appearnce ADD to this ability to scare someone senseless! I will resist the temptation to get into the different kinds of terror ;)