Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jhiroth 06-28-07, 08:58 PM	I look at the rulebooks that come out, and the FR books are far outnumbered by the other worlds. I look at the D&D online game and its....Eberron :rolleyes: I have to wonder why WoTC doesn't ride the FR horse more? I have to believe FR is as popular as any of the gameworlds they've created, but the amount of content just isn't there. Does anyone have any input why this is so, or even agreement/disagreement with what I feel? I don't have sales numbers, but I certainly can't recall an Eberron book racking up sales like the FR books or even the old Weis/Hickman Dragonlance stuff. Am I crazy or is WoTC really dropping the ball on the number of FR products out there? Not content, mind you, but amount of products.
XHereticX 06-28-07, 09:03 PM	Ahh, some say FR is nearing its end. I say, its just in a depression right now, a lot of FR products are expected in the second half of the year, including Grand History of the Realms. They are poaring a lot into Eberron because it is a new setting and they want to increase its fanbase with more products and marketing, which so far is working. But I do have a bad feeling that Eberron may become the main setting in 4th edition, which I pray is far far away.
MerrikCale 06-28-07, 09:37 PM	They are poaring a lot into Eberron because it is a new setting and they want to increase its fanbase with more products and marketing, which so far is working. But I do have a bad feeling that Eberron may become the main setting in 4th edition, which I pray is far far away. I agree with your logic. But I'm not sure if Eberron will be the ultimate choice for 4e. Frankly, its more of a unique setting and unlike the more traditional settings like Middle Earth, FR, Greyhawk, and all the others that I doubt WoTC will make it THE 4e setting. But I do think they will try to milk the fanbase for awhile
Gray Richardson 06-28-07, 09:54 PM	I think Forgotten Realms is and will remain fairly popular. One of the problems may be, if the rumors are true that 4th edition is coming soon, that they are holding back from printing FR sourcebooks before the rules change over so that when 4e is released the sourcebooks will not be dated. People have speculated that it is a bad idea to market sourcebooks in the year prior to the rules change, which may explain the recent trend in printing adventures instead of sourcebooks. However, now is the perfect time to publish a rules-free sourcebook like the Grand History of the Realms which, exactly because it has no stats in it, will still be equally as current and marketable after the rules change. If so, then we are very fortunate that the imminent changeover in rules editions has left open a slot on the product calendar that they needed to fill with a rules-light sourcebook. I think that otherwise the bean-counters might not have allowed the FR team to publish such a book. I will say that I feel confident you will see many new interesting Realms offerings in the coming year, after the release of 4e. Maybe they will make some exciting announcements about upcoming products after they announce 4e at Gencon in August (as people are expecting). Off the top of my head, I can imagine that they might announce a 4e update of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting sourcebook, which, if 4e is to be released by next summer, could conceivably appear on shelves in the 2nd half of next year.
XHereticX 06-28-07, 09:57 PM	I think Forgotten Realms is and will remain fairly popular. One of the problems may be, if the rumors are true that 4th edition is coming soon, that they are holding back from printing FR sourcebooks before the rules change over so that when 4e is released the sourcebooks will not be dated. People have speculated that it is a bad idea to market sourcebooks in the year prior to the rules change, which may explain the recent trend in printing adventures instead of sourcebooks. However, now is the perfect time to publish a rules-free sourcebook like the Grand History of the Realms which, exactly because it has no stats in it, will still be equally as current and marketable after the rules change. If so, then we are very fortunate that the imminent changeover in rules editions has left open a slot on the product calendar that they needed to fill with a rules-light sourcebook. I think that otherwise the bean-counters might not have allowed the FR team to publish such a book. I will say that I feel confident you will see many new interesting Realms offerings in the coming year, after the release of 4e. Maybe they will make some exciting announcements about upcoming products after they announce 4e at Gencon in August (as people are expecting). Off the top of my head, I can imagine that they might announce a 4e update of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting sourcebook, which, if 4e is to be released by next summer, could conceivably appear on shelves in the 2nd half of next year. Oh god, 4th edition, going into angst mode now, thanks Gray...:weep:
MerrikCale 06-28-07, 09:59 PM	Oh god, 4th edition, going into angst mode now, thanks Gray...:weep: don't worry there will never ever be a 4th edition, don't worry just relax, its all in Gray's head, calm down........
XHereticX 06-28-07, 10:04 PM	don't worry there will never ever be a 4th edition, don't worry just relax, its all in Gray's head, calm down........ aww, dat makes me feel better, my usual entertainment is just making me more depressed now, what u recommend?
MerrikCale 06-28-07, 11:12 PM	aww, dat makes me feel better, my usual entertainment is just making me more depressed now, what u recommend? watch some Disney movies;)
Dr_Tough 06-28-07, 11:32 PM	Why does WoTC hate the FR? You're kidding right?
Ranger REG 06-29-07, 02:21 AM	I look at the rulebooks that come out, and the FR books are far outnumbered by the other worlds. I look at the D&D online game and its....Eberron :rolleyes: I have to wonder why WoTC doesn't ride the FR horse more? I have to believe FR is as popular as any of the gameworlds they've created, but the amount of content just isn't there. Does anyone have any input why this is so, or even agreement/disagreement with what I feel? I don't have sales numbers, but I certainly can't recall an Eberron book racking up sales like the FR books or even the old Weis/Hickman Dragonlance stuff. Am I crazy or is WoTC really dropping the ball on the number of FR products out there? Not content, mind you, but amount of products. Why? With fresh new gamers, you'll need fresh new settings. FR was the "darling" setting in the 2e Era, outnumber GH products between 1989-2001. Now comes 3e, FR is still hanging in there, but WotC wanted a new fresh setting. So, they set up a setting search contest, and Eberron is born. GH is pretty much done and over with in 3e, and pretty soon FR will be done and over with in 4e (Eberron will probably scale back while a whole new setting will debut).
MarkusTay63 06-29-07, 02:39 AM	Stormreach was meant to go head to head with World of Warcraft, so they chose a setting with cheesy neo-tech (trams, flying ships, etc) just like WoW to draw the customers away. Problem is, Blizzard fans are loyal, and aren't going anywhere. Somebody at Hasbro should of done their homework. The only chance another MMORPG had against WoW was to be radically different then it, and a traditional high-fantasy setting would have worked, especially riding the wave created by the LotRs movies and Narnia. Hell, we even got us a big ol' lion god and everything. :D Bean counters just don't live in the real world, what can I tell you? If they would have just taken a look at the popularity of all the FR computer games, maybe it would have dawned on them. Sometimes I get the feeling that one hand doesn't know what the other is doing. And don't even get me started on Dragon... :( A single bad decision has been known to torpedo a small company, so maybe its a good thing its Hasbro making the mistakes this time out and not another TSR. And if 4e comes out next year, I won't buy it; theres no need for a 4e, the rules actually work well now. There are a few things that could be 'fixed', but they are more along the lines of minor clarifications - nothing that requires an entire 'nother edition! What they need to do is produce hardcopy books with NO crunch, just fluff, and have the crunch down-loadable online (no more two-page stat blocks!). Then, when another edition comes out, we just download the newest stats to go with our fluff. Something happens to a main character, all we have to do is is download the newest 'patch' to our book. Thats the way to go - make us pay for the setting, but give us the 'rules' for free. After all, you can download the 3e rules anyway, so whats the difference? Sell the initial three core books, and after that everything should be setting-specific background material. Jeez, they'd even be saving on paper; I'm sure the tree-huggers would like that.
ORC_Paradox 06-29-07, 02:43 AM	What is with the continuing rumors about a 4th edition? I'm very tempted to start a thread after Gen Con when there is no 4th edition announcment demanding apologies from everyone who continues to perpetuate the rumors. :P
MarkusTay63 06-29-07, 02:48 AM	Its all Grays fault! :P He's got us checking under our beds now for 4th-edition boogeymen!!! :eek: :dancin: Like I said above, I don't see any reason for one, this one works really well (if you ignore the crappier PrCs and useless Feats). "Don't fix what ain't broken" ;)
Thanqol 06-29-07, 07:47 AM	I look at the rulebooks that come out, and the FR books are far outnumbered by the other worlds. I look at the D&D online game and its....Eberron :rolleyes: Oh, of course they hate FR. Never mind that they also produced Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Nights 2, both of which were awesome. Nope. They made a game for Eberron, which by definition is hate for FR. These two settings certainly can't share. Of course not. That would be silly. Really, quit your whining, all of you. Wizards made an Eberron video game. They also made a FR video game. Just because the Eberron game is more recent is not a sign of impending doom. And it sure as hell does not mean they suddenly hate Forgotten Realms Wizards made a video game. It's not an excuse to light your hair on fire and run around screaming incoherently about fourth edition and the end of the Realms.
Kid SixXx 06-29-07, 08:06 AM	I look at the rulebooks that come out, and the FR books are far outnumbered by the other worlds. I look at the D&D online game and its....Eberron :rolleyes: So, has it occurred to you that it is painfully obvious from playing games like WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, and EverQuest that MMORPG's were not built with the traditional pen & paper fanbase or genre grognards in mind? Seriously, go visit MMOGChart.com sometimes for a good explanation of the marketing strategies. DDO is a sign that WoTC wants to make money off of it's licenses, not that it hates FR. Jesus, what is wrong with you people?
XHereticX 06-29-07, 08:12 AM	So, has it occurred to you that it is painfully obvious from playing games like WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, and EverQuest that MMORPG's were not built with the traditional pen & paper fanbase or genre grognards in mind? Seriously, go visit MMOGChart.com sometimes for a good explanation of the marketing strategies. DDO is a sign that WoTC wants to make money off of it's licenses, not that it hates FR. Jesus, what is wrong with you people? Ahh, I know, DDO was just another marketing attempt to get more online gamers to play D&D in general, not specifically Eberron. Eberron has always hearalded as a sign of the end of D&D's Golden Age for me, and I just got into the game 2 years ago too, now its already ending... Whatever, I have to stop listening to Gray.
captaincarot 06-29-07, 08:14 AM	the golden age ended about 1986
Kid SixXx 06-29-07, 08:24 AM	Ahh, I know, DDO was just another marketing attempt to get more online gamers to play D&D in general, not specifically Eberron. Yep, and arguably why WoTC has stayed in the pen & paper and electronic media sections of the market. It's pretty apparent that non-traditional interpretations of the FR will result in obscene amounts of backlash from the cult here on the boards. Just look at the FR televsion show saga that never made it past the developmental script phase.. If FR had been made into an MMOG, most likely FR diehard supporters would hate the game into oblivion because they'd have to share cyberspace with the run of the mill ph4t l3wt squad that infests every other MMOG. Or as my friend loves to say, "If my FR MMOG guild successfully camps Elminster and kills him, will that be considered canon?"
XHereticX 06-29-07, 08:28 AM	Yep, and arguably why WoTC has stayed in the pen & paper and electronic media sections of the market. It's pretty apparent that non-traditional interpretations of the FR will result in obscene amounts of backlash from the cult here on the boards. Just look at the FR televsion show saga that never made it past the developmental script phase. If FR had been made into an MMOG, most likely FR diehard supporters would hate the game into oblivion because they'd have to share cyberspace with the run of the mill ph4t l3wt squad that inhabits every other MMOG. Or as my friend loves to say, "If my FR MMOG guild successfully camps Elminster and kills him, will that be considered canon?" Well, the marketing attempt worked, one of my friends is playing D&D because he heard of DDO.:D Plz say no to FR MMO, MMOs are fun and all, but I prefer D&D based games that focus more on the lore of the setting rather than the general pwn, pk, slay, and lv. Anyway, about the Elminster thing though, games aren't consitered canon unless they base a book off it. NWN and NWN2 are not canon, neither is Demon Stone. I agree with you for the most part Kid, WoTC dosen't hate FR, its just not really focusing on it right now. As long as 4th edition is at least 4 years away I'm happy.
Renvale999 06-29-07, 10:05 AM	What is with the continuing rumors about a 4th edition? I'm very tempted to start a thread after Gen Con when there is no 4th edition announcment demanding apologies from everyone who continues to perpetuate the rumors. :P No offense WizO, but 4e is a very real possiblity. Pen and Paper RPG's are a lame horse, since video games are becoming more and more prevalent. You have to stay new and fresh if you're going to compete. I would be surprised if 4e doesn't come out next year. In the beginning it was about gamers...now it's about money...wake up and smell the green. People at wizards could care less about our opinions, what they care about is making money... Sad day for gaming :(
Leukrythus 06-29-07, 11:27 AM	I look at the rulebooks that come out, and the FR books are far outnumbered by the other worlds. I look at the D&D online game and its....Eberron. I have to wonder why WoTC doesn't ride the FR horse more? I have to believe FR is as popular as any of the gameworlds they've created, but the amount of content just isn't there. Does anyone have any input why this is so, or even agreement/disagreement with what I feel? As a child did your parents spoil your siblings, but neglect you? FR has more than enough source material. Any more and they'll be telling us how to run our games. If you listen to some of the gospelists here, I fear that some do want to criticize the purity of heretical games that fall short of scripture.
Francius 06-29-07, 11:54 AM	Oh my. Yet another unbased "the Forgotten Realms are in danger" thread. I am starting to believe that people who start these kinds of discussions are either nothing doers or...well...somewhat green. I look at the rulebooks that come out, and the FR books are far outnumbered by the other worlds. Where did you get that silly impression from? The FR books are far outnumbered by *which* other worlds? The number of products to be published in 2007 for both the Forgotten Realms and Eberron is equal in quantity if not somewhat more for the FR. The novels to be printed then are by FAR FAR FAR FAR more numerous for the Forgotten Realms. The designing teams for the two worlds cannot even be compared. The Forgotten Realms completely KILL Eberron in this issue. I look at the D&D online game and its....Eberron :rolleyes: Yeah. And that same online game sucks (in the original sense) like Jenna Jameson. Here, educate yourself: By Markus Tay: Stormreach was meant to go head to head with World of Warcraft, so they chose a setting with cheesy neo-tech (trams, flying ships, etc) just like WoW to draw the customers away. Problem is, Blizzard fans are loyal, and aren't going anywhere. Somebody at Hasbro should of done their homework. The only chance another MMORPG had against WoW was to be radically different then it, and a traditional high-fantasy setting would have worked, especially riding the wave created by the LotRs movies and Narnia. Hell, we even got us a big ol' lion god and everything. Bean counters just don't live in the real world, what can I tell you? If they would have just taken a look at the popularity of all the FR computer games, maybe it would have dawned on them. Sometimes I get the feeling that one hand doesn't know what the other is doing. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: I have to wonder why WoTC doesn't ride the FR horse more? I have to believe FR is as popular as any of the gameworlds they've created, but the amount of content just isn't there. Open your eyes or stop whining and you 'll realize that the content is there. Does anyone have any input why this is so, or even agreement/disagreement with what I feel? Yes, I feel for you. I don't have sales numbers, Then don't start a thread at all. but I certainly can't recall an Eberron book racking up sales like the FR books or even the old Weis/Hickman Dragonlance stuff. Exactly. The Realms sell more and Wotc does not hate them. Am I crazy or is WoTC really dropping the ball on the number of FR products out there? Yes you 're crazy. You could have spared us another thread of this kind. We all get the nausea from this posted sheet (of paper). I think the WizOs should start closing/forbidding these kind of discussions. Heck, they did it with novels threads which were more serious to talk about.
GothicDan 06-29-07, 12:03 PM	And just think, if FR died, we'd have to rely on the already printed lore, and fan-creations like Elves of Faerun and new, released lore from Ed... Wait, why is this a bad thing?
MarkusTay63 06-29-07, 12:09 PM	Besides, if anything it's still at least two years away. 70's = ODD 80's = 1e 90's = 2e 2000 = 3e 2010 = 4e Once a decade, people. Anything more then that will just pi$$ folks off. Unless you believe the 'Doomsday' people, then the world will end in 2012, which in my book means the end of D&D as we know it. :P
Faraer 06-29-07, 12:10 PM	"Why do you hate America?"Oh god, 4th edition, going into angst mode now, thanks Gray...:weep:There will be at some point, and either we will find it better suited to the Realms, or not and keep using our preferred edition.. . . pretty soon FR will be done and over with . . .What point does that comment have without giving some reason to think it?DDO is a sign that WoTC wants to make money off of it's licenses, not that it hates FR.Right. Game and movie licensing was a large part of the purpose of acquiring and developing Eberron in the first place. It's only secondarily for D&D's or the setting's sake.
Francius 06-29-07, 12:11 PM	Wait, why is this a bad thing? Because of the work and effort people put into it perhaps? Because of the Realms being one of the greatest worlds of fantasy?
Faraer 06-29-07, 12:19 PM	There are undoubtedly both pros and cons to Realms game products being produced by Wizards rather than a theoretical licensee, both in terms of the kind of company it is and the specific decisions it's taken.
captaincarot 06-29-07, 12:26 PM	There are undoubtedly both pros and cons to Realms game products being produced by Wizards rather than a theoretical licensee, both in terms of the kind of company it is and the specific decisions it's taken. that reply smells of politician to me, please don't let us have been infiltrated by a politician! this whole thread is getting quite silly really. if wizzards kill the realms of they would have to kill Ed off too, which aint gonna happen. and as for 4th edition, they haven't made mention of it so why's everyone worrying.
Faraer 06-29-07, 12:36 PM	Given how long I've been posting here and what, that observation is bizarre.
captaincarot 06-29-07, 12:43 PM	Given how long I've been posting here and what, that observation is bizarre. heheheheh! :D please don't take offence!
GothicDan 06-29-07, 12:44 PM	Because of the work and effort people put into it perhaps? Ed doesn't use the vast majority of lore or events that TSR/WotC grafted onto his creation, and has hundreds of more pages of information besides. Do you in some way think that he is lacking in work ethic in regards to the Realms? Because of the Realms being one of the greatest worlds of fantasy? And would they cease to exist just because WotC stopped printing them? No.
Francius 06-29-07, 01:01 PM	Ed doesn't use the vast majority of lore or events that TSR/WotC grafted onto his creation, and has hundreds of more pages of information besides. Do you in some way think that he is lacking in work ethic in regards to the Realms? You misunderstood/did not comprehend a single virgule of what I was writing. I was answering to what *you* wrote: Dan's words: And just think, if FR died, we'd have to rely on the already printed lore, and fan-creations like Elves of Faerun and new, released lore from Ed... Wait, why is this a bad thing? Francius' Answer: It's a bad thing because of the work and effort so many people put into it (the Realms are not just ED). It's a bad thing because the Realms are one of the greatest worlds of fantasy and my all-time favourite setting (and the people working on them need to be payed. If they cease having a company pubblishing their work, then they 're gonna have a problem). The way things are at present, Wotc only pubblishes its material. Most of it comes from the official and original FR designers, Wotc adds litle if nothing to it before pubblication. Well, actually all of the official FR designers work for Wotc. How in the world would I be prone to think that ED is lacking in work ethic in regards to the Realms? Ed is my favourite fantasy author alongside R.Salvatore. Hope you grasped it this time. And would they cease to exist just because WotC stopped printing them? No. Exactly right on this one. The Realms have such a huge designers/authors/writers/supporters/fans squad that they will last as long as fantasy fiction lasts even if Wotc topped pubblishing them. However, pros need a good pubblishing house behind their backs. The Realms have a chance to become the next Middle-Earth in terms of popularity and fandom.
captaincarot 06-29-07, 01:04 PM	The Realms have a chance to become the next Middle-Earth in terms of popularity and fandom. what you're suggesting they're better known that harry potters world, or discworld.
Francius 06-29-07, 01:11 PM	what you're suggesting they're better known that harry potters world, or discworld. I think Middle-Earth is more popular than Harry "Pother".
GothicDan 06-29-07, 01:14 PM	It actually isn't, if you go by sheer amount of books sold and the like. There's a reason why people from ages 6 to 60 are reading Harry Potter. I'm not a fan of it, but nor am I a big fan of Tolkien's writing style, either. And Francius, you should practice conveying your opinions (as weird as they are) online without sounding insulting. Unless, of course, you are specifically aiming for that. If that's the case, then bravo. And the majority of the older FR designers are freelancers. They are not WotC employees.
MarkusTay63 06-29-07, 01:16 PM	A Harry Potter RPG would definately get me to throw away all of my FR books. NOT :P As much as I am a fan, I don't like playing in the modern era. D20 write-ups for the classes and schools would be interesting, however.
captaincarot 06-29-07, 01:18 PM	I think Middle-Earth is more popular than Harry "Pother". middle earth possibly on a par with potter but as for mainstream penetration FR doesn't come close. how many of the non british people on here have heard of discworld? i know it has a none british fanbase but i don't know to what level outside of britian.
GothicDan 06-29-07, 01:18 PM	I did some online Harry Potter roleplaying. The world is actually an interesting concept, even if I can't stand the writing.
Francius 06-29-07, 01:19 PM	It actually isn't. And Francius, you should practice conveying your opinions (as weird as they are) online without sounding insulting. Unless, of course, you are specifically aiming for that. If that's the case, then bravo. I don't think that my opinions are weird nor did I mean to be insulting. (you 're quick to grab one ain't ya?) However, I apologize because I had to edit my post further to clarify my points so you may want to have a look at it again in its final version to fully comprehend what I was trying to say. And I believe that Middle-Earth is more popular than Harry-Potter in general, the latter book having many fans -yes- but of a much younger age compared to Tolkien's work. I think that in total sales numbers the LotR franchise surpasses Harry-Potter (movies income, books, action figures, minis, rpg stuff, cardgames, accessories etc).
XHereticX 06-29-07, 01:22 PM	And I believe that Middle-Earth is more popular than Harry-Potter in general, the latter book having many fans -yes- but of a much younger age compared to Tolkien's work. That I agree with, HP is ok, I've read all the books so far, its decent, but not as good as everyone thinks it is. LoTR is much, much, better. But FR can never become the next LoTR due to the overwhelming prejudice against D&D in general.
GothicDan 06-29-07, 01:23 PM	As I stated, Harry Potter has a surprisingly large fan base at the upper age limits. It's probably in large part because it's a much easier read than Tolkien's stuff. I'd say it's the same reason why RAS's stuff is more popular than, say, GRRM's or Mieville's, and the same reason why there's more people who go to college for degrees in Philoosphy and English and Business than the hard sciences. Popularity is a direct result of 'ease' of material. And what do you mean 'quick to grab,' exactly?
Hellesponte 06-29-07, 01:30 PM	Just a comment from someone who has been around since the beginning of gaming...little brown books in 78 (or 79...been a while). There are ALWAYS new worlds to explore and adventure in...and there will ALWAYS be new editions and refining of the system. That is the nature of the beast...for good or ill. I will be just as interested to see the new 4e as I was to see the Basic, Expert, Companion, Master and Immortals set WAY WAY back in the day. Gaming is not about which world you play in, as much as it is the FUN that you have with your friends. I really enjoy the books put out about FR...I REALLY enjoy the Greyhawk books, and some of the Eberron books are interesting, as well...but I am more interested in what new worlds will be created to wander around in next. Well...that's just my two cents...thanks...:D
Francius 06-29-07, 01:34 PM	As I stated, Harry Potter has a surprisingly large fan base at the upper age limits. It's probably in large part because it's a much easier read than Tolkien's stuff. Harry Potter is a book for infants and elementary kids at best. Thus the grand vast majority of fans are in their early 10s - you won't see many adults reading them. Just because it's an easy read doesn't necessarily mean it has lots of adult fans that can't read tougher text. By that logic "Fluffy: the adventures of the smart doggy" (or whatever) would be the most popular and iconic fantasy character. As I said before, Middle-Earth is more popular as a franchise that Harry Potter. I'd say it's the same reason why RAS's stuff is more popular than, say, GRRM's or Mieville's, I disagree. Salvatore has a perfect use of the english language in his descriptions of battles, characters, locales and locations and whatever else you can think of. His books are not such an "easy read". and the same reason why there's more people who go to college for degrees in Philoosphy and English and Business than the hard sciences. Although my high-school Italian teacher will yell at you like hell to prove you the contrary I must say that I completely agree with you. Maths, Physics, Building Engineering and Chemistry are the hardest of sciences to study and learn. Popularity is a direct result of 'ease' of material. Yup. And what do you mean 'quick to grab,' exactly? Quick to grab an insult, easily offended. Don't tell me you didn't get it.
XHereticX 06-29-07, 01:37 PM	Harry Potter is a book for infants and elementary kids at best. Thus the grand vast majority of fans are in their early 10s - you won't see many adults reading them. . Whoa there, don't go around judging and cirtisizing what other people like and do, its ignorent, barbaric, and shows a small mind. The Realms and High Fantasy aren't everything Francius. In fact, I will happily drag a bunch of Realms haters over here (and yes, I do know some) and argue in this kind of fashion to you.:P
captaincarot 06-29-07, 01:37 PM	Harry Potter is a book for infants and elementary kids at best. Thus the grand vast majority of fans are in their early 10s - you won't see many adults reading them. except for the fact that this next edition has already sold more copies in the adult version than the childrens one. it hasn't even been released yet. your assumptions are by the way totally and utterly wrong on the matter of potter. as for your assertions so far you are coming over as the type of person who gets most D&D gamers the nerd and weirdo title. if you asked the wizards bean counters if they would prefer the gross from FR or potterworld, you will find they will go all glassy eyed before mistily muttering potter.
GothicDan 06-29-07, 01:42 PM	Harry Potter is a book for infants and elementary kids at best. Thus the grand vast majority of fans are in their early 10s - you won't see many adults reading them. Just because it's an easy read doesn't necessarily mean it has lots of adult fans that can't read tougher text. By that logic "Fluffy: the adventures of the smart doggy" (or whatever) would be the most popular and iconic fantasy character. As I said before, Middle-Earth is more popular as a franchise that Harry Potter. I know several dozen people, personally, who read and love Harry Potter, and not one of them is below 18 years old. As a contrast, I know only a few who truly appreciate LotR. I am friends more with the latter group, but that doesn't change the fact that Harry Potter has grown to attract a larger number of older readers as the books have gone on. JK Rowling most likely realized that her books were appealing to older people and as the years went on, she wrote her books to appeal to a wider audience. You don't see childrens' books that are 400+ pages long. I disagree. Salvatore has a perfect use of the english language in his descriptions of battles, characters, locales and locations and whatever else you can think of. His books are not such an "easy read". I'm not sure where you get the idea that "easy read" in any way means what you said it does. One's grasp of the English language has nothing to do with how easy it is to read. The fact that it appeals to people from about the same age as the fans of Harry Potter and up is a good indicator, though. I read some of RAS's stuff. I found it easy - compared to, say, The Worm Ouroboros. That is all. Quick to grab an insult, easily offended. Don't tell me you didn't get it. I didn't. And I'm easily offended if one's threshhold for offense is approximately the level of the stratosphere.
Francius 06-29-07, 01:56 PM	Whoa there, don't go around judging and cirtisizing what other people like and do, its ignorent, barbaric, and shows a small mind. Not criticizing/judging anyone. It actually shows a small mind if you took that from my post as I was actually stating facts I know and see everyday. How the heck did you find my post so negative? The Realms and High Fantasy aren't everything Francius. In fact, I will happily drag a bunch of Realms haters over here (and yes, I do know some) and argue in this kind of fashion to you.:P And I will happily drag a bunch of 16 year olds Harry Potters haters here (or even in live contact with you if you know what I mean) and argue in this kind of fashion with you. By the way, what kind of fashion?
GothicDan 06-29-07, 02:00 PM	What sort of 'facts' are you referring to, Francius?
Francius 06-29-07, 02:01 PM	except for the fact that this next edition has already sold more copies in the adult version than the childrens one. it hasn't even been released yet. your assumptions are by the way totally and utterly wrong on the matter of potter. I believe the same about yours. So what now? Can you actually prove me the contrary? My 6 yeard old cousins read the book before going to bed. I don't know any person past his twenties that's a Harry fan (and you bet your beard I know many many people). as for your assertions so far you are coming over as the type of person who gets most D&D gamers the nerd and weirdo title. Why? Beacuse I said that "Harry Potter is a book for infants and elementary kids at best. Thus the grand vast majority of fans are in their early 10s - you won't see many adults reading them." Is that why? And watch how I was basically defending the older audiences when Dan said that they actually prefer Potter because they can't read tougher text. Yet that made you bent out of your shape. Now that's what I call a weirdo/geek/nerd behavior, captaincarot.
Kid SixXx 06-29-07, 02:01 PM	I read some of RAS's stuff. I found it easy - compared to, say, The Worm Ouroboros. That is all. Yes, but The Worm Ouroborous is actually a piece of high fiction. RAS books feature Dwarves named Fishsquisher and Dagnabit; they are for kids.
XHereticX 06-29-07, 02:03 PM	How the heck did you find my post so negative? And I will happily drag a bunch of 16 year olds Harry Potters haters here (or even in live contact with you if you know what I mean) and argue in this kind of fashion with you. By the way, what kind of fashion? I don't like Potter, but the kind of comments you were making just made me sick. If Potter sucks so much why is it 1000000 times more popular than the Realms right now???? Yes, adults love it too, as GD's statistics show, often even more than kids. Just stop being supremist and rude, k?:mad:
msatran 06-29-07, 02:08 PM	Well, I run a modern day Superhero game that's run as long as my Forgotten Realms game, if not longer. Hey, I'm even a Hero Games Freelancer. Check out my work in digital hero. The modern era has it's own set of perils and frustrations and RP situations which can be great fun, plus, there's a greater focus on 'You can't just kill this guy, because..."
Kid SixXx 06-29-07, 02:09 PM	I don't like Potter, but the kind of comments you were making just made me sick. If Potter sucks so much why is it 1000000 times more popular than the Realms right now???? Yes, adults love it too, as GD's statistics show, often even more than kids. Just stop being supremist and rude, k?:mad: Yet another person that probably won't grace Rome, Italy with his tourism dollar. WTG, Francius!
Soltares 06-29-07, 02:11 PM	Quick to grab an insult, easily offended. Don't tell me you didn't get it. It's not a phrase I've ever heard of. We tend to use terms like 'thin-skinned' to refer to those who are easily offended, and comments like 'quick to grab one' refer either to beer or physical attributes of members of whichever gender we are prone to 'grabbing.' Your previous posts have been quite insulting, actually. I just didn't care enough to point it out. Given how many times RA Salvatore has been on the Bestseller lists, I wouldn't break out the oxygen masks for the moribund Forgotten Realms yet. With stuff like Pool of Radiance, Neverwinter Nights and the Drizz't novels having saturated the public perception, I'd think that the Realms are *far* more prevalent than worlds like Discworld (which I've heard of, but doesn't seem to have a lot of tie-in novels written by dozens of other authors, or hundred-thousand-unit selling video game properties...). And I will happily drag a bunch of 16 year olds Harry Potters haters here (or even in live contact with you if you know what I mean) Ooh, threatening people! Excellent way to get banned. Hold me! I'm skeered. A bunch of sixteen year old are going to get in 'live contact' with me. Actually, I'm pretty sure that isn't legal in my state, so I will have to decline, or at least ask for a raincheck until y'all are eighteen. :) Salvatore has a perfect use of the english language in his descriptions of battles, characters, locales and locations and whatever else you can think of. His books are not such an "easy read". As someone who has edited professionally, and even seen some Salvatore's own text before publishing (when he, yanno, *showed it to me*), please continue dispensing the hilarity. He's actually human, believe it or not, and cannot walk on water or raise the dead. (My brilliant editorial advice upon getting to look at the manuscript of some dude I didn't know was a bestselling author? A comment about how he was spelling Lolth's name... Gosh, I feel like such a dunce!) For a printed sample of his writing that is less than 'perfect' check out Hall of Heroes, in which the RA Salvatore-penned write-up for Catti-brie ends with the following lines. "And if a member of her party shows her an ugly, destructive side, she'll walk away. And if they try to bring harm upon another, she'll defend their intented victim." "Stubbornly, and without fear." And less than perfect grammar. And sentence fragments. With some Yoda-speak. Nobody is perfect (my grammar here isn't, and yours above certainly is not either). R.A. Salvatore may have a rich imagination and have developed great skill at his craft, but he's as human as you and I. Since he lives near me (or, did, previously. I haven't seen him in awhile, actually.), and I've bumped into him while buying comics, I feel qualified to point out his lack of angelic wings and radiant halo. :)
Francius 06-29-07, 02:11 PM	I know several dozen people, personally, who read and love Harry Potter, and not one of them is below 18 years old. As a contrast, I know only a few who truly appreciate LotR. I am friends more with the latter group, but that doesn't change the fact that Harry Potter has grown to attract a larger number of older readers as the books have gone on. JK Rowling most likely realized that her books were appealing to older people and as the years went on, she wrote her books to appeal to a wider audience. You don't see childrens' books that are 400+ pages long. And (as I already said) I know many several people, personally, who know him but they don't read his books , are not fans of him and all regrad him as a book for kis (which it actually is). I know a whole bunch of folks who love LotR and the fan groups for it are larger and greater. I am not saying that Harry Potter books are bad. They 're just childish. They 're bed time stories for kids. Come on, you can't be serious. My little cousins read them before going to bed and my 10 year old cousin has already started telling his dad to stop reading him that kind of stuff for little bimbos". The fact that the Harry's books may be 400 pages long with letters triple the normal size does say nothing to change that. If you have a different feeling about them, fine. I am not criticizing anybody. Sheesh. I can't believe we 're arguing about frigging Harry Potter... I'm not sure where you get the idea that "easy read" in any way means what you said it does. One's grasp of the English language has nothing to do with how easy it is to read. The fact that it appeals to people from about the same age as the fans of Harry Potter and up is a good indicator, though. It was you who actually first speaked about what an easy read is considered to be and thus why Harry Potter is so succesfull. I didn't. And I'm easily offended if one's threshhold for offense is approximately the level of the stratosphere. Then am I right? Are you easily offended?
GothicDan 06-29-07, 02:17 PM	And (as I already said) I know many several people, personally, who know him but they don't read his books , are not fans of him and all regrad him as a book for kis (which it actually is). I know a whole bunch of folks who love LotR and the fan groups for it are larger and greater. I am not saying that Harry Potter books are bad. They 're just childish. They 're bed time stories for kids. Come on, you can't be serious. My little cousins read them before going to bed and my 10 year old cousin has already started telling his dad to stop reading him that kind of stuff for little bimbos". Some adults watch cartoons too, you know. Heck, I watch superhero movies, read comics, and am psyched out of my mind about seeing the Transformers movie. I, however, do not consider myself immature because of these things. The fact that the Harry's books may be 400 pages long with letters triple the normal size does say nothing to change that. The font size is standard. If you have a different feeling about them, fine. I am not criticizing anybody. It sure sounds like you were. And I've said numerous times that I don't like the books. We were arguing about the fact that Harry Potter currently is much more popular than other fantasy franchizes. It was you who actually first speaked about what an easy read is considered to be and thus why Harry Potter is so succesfull. Correct. And also, RAS. Then am I right? Are you easily offended? I already answered that.
Francius 06-29-07, 02:17 PM	I don't like Potter, but the kind of comments you were making just made me sick. If Potter sucks so much why is it 1000000 times more popular than the Realms right now???? Yes, adults love it too, as GD's statistics show, often even more than kids. Just stop being supremist and rude, k?:mad: He's popular 'cause many little kids all over the world (who are the main buyers of these kind of fairy-tales books) are interested in him. Give me a break , kiddo. I didn't say anything bad against that Potter-mage. I already told you I am not criticizing anybody just because one happens to like Rowling's character. I am not rude nor supremist. ;) I just expressed my opinion and I 'll do it again for clearing things up: I think that the Harry Potter books are for little kids. They are not bad yet they are childish. They are a good read for younglins. My many little cousins adhore him.
GothicDan 06-29-07, 02:19 PM	Yet another person that probably won't grace Rome, Italy with his tourism dollar. WTG, Francius! I'll go only because being a Latin minor requires it of me. But I'll still make fun of all of the Francius's out there. Mmm, Dante Alighieri. That's some good writing. Much harder a read then Harry Potter or RAS.
XHereticX 06-29-07, 02:19 PM	Complexity dosen't always make a great read. It depends on the soul of the novel, its depth, its message, and the overlying theme. Plus, people tend to like books that address them as people and really strike deep into their emphathetic emotions. Probably why a lot of ordinary people like RAS more than Paradise Lost.;)
XHereticX 06-29-07, 02:20 PM	I'll go only because being a Latin minor requires it of me. But I'll still make fun of all of the Francius's out there. Mmm, Dante Alighieri. That's some good writing. Much harder a read then Harry Potter or RAS. I wanna see or read Divine Comedy sooo bad.
Francius 06-29-07, 02:24 PM	Some adults watch cartoons too, you know. Heck, I watch superhero movies, read comics, and am psyched out of my mind about seeing the Transformers movie. I, however, do not consider myself immature because of these things. Me too. I like Spider-Man and I have been a fan of him since I was 6 years old. I like videogames, mangas and western cartoons. However I still have to say that Harry-Porter is for infants. The font size is standard. It's double the size of a normal book. It sure sounds like you were. Well, I wasn't. If you still want to feel insulted by it no matter what, suit yourself. And I've said numerous times that I don't like the books. We were arguing about the fact that Harry Potter currently is much more popular than other fantasy franchizes. Ok. I still think that Middle-Earth is more popular and with a much more mature audience. So what's the problem here? We 're arguing and disputing over such a silly subject? Correct. And also, RAS. I disagree about Salvatore being an "easy read". See? Opinions are opinions. You can't say I 'm insulting soemone just because I happen to find Harry Potter a childish book. I already answered that. Me too.
GothicDan 06-29-07, 02:24 PM	I've read 2/3's of the Comedy. I still have to read Paradise. And I also want to read Paradise Lost. :) But I also have to finish reading Phantom, The Worm Ouroborous (it's a tedious read, you know ;) ), the historical pieces I've picked up (Symbols of Pagan Europe and the Germanization of Early Medeival Christianity), Animals in Translation, Faust, Blackstaff, The Fabric of Reality..
XHereticX 06-29-07, 02:26 PM	I've read 2/3's of the Comedy. I still have to read Paradise. And I also want to read Paradise Lost. :) But I also have to finish reading Phantom, The Worm Ouroborous (it's a tedious read, you know ;) ), the historical pieces I've picked up (Symbols of Pagan Europe and the Germanization of Early Medeival Christianity), Animals in Translation, Faust, Blackstaff, The Fabric of Reality.. Darn, how do you find all these old books???? I need a few... I'll try the libary again. Yeah, RAS was pretty easy
Francius 06-29-07, 02:28 PM	I'll go only because being a Latin minor requires it of me. But I'll still make fun of all of the Francius's out there. I 'll make fun of all the Gothic Dans that will travel here the very first moment they 'll land a step in our country.
MarkusTay63 06-29-07, 02:33 PM	Harry Potter is a book for infants and elementary kids at best. Thus the grand vast majority of fans are in their early 10s - you won't see many adults reading them.I'm sorry, I was unaware that Italy was on another planet... :rolleyes: I was introduced to Harry Potter by adults (people in their forties), and MOST of the fans I know are over thrity. I know a 25 year old who goes to the midnight premiers with about fifty friends... ALL DRESSED IN COSTUME!!! :eek: I only know of two kids that read the books, and both of them are the children of a customer of mine - the same customer who turned me onto the tales in the first place. The only people I know that don't like Harry Potter novels are the people who have never tried Harry Potter novels. The fact that you offer opinions about a series of books you obviously have never read is the WORST kind of bigotry. Until you know what you are talking about, don't reveiw stuff you've never read. The style of writing is aimed at 'young adults', not children. That means the 11-14 bracket mostly, but I suppose a VERY intelligent nine year old might be able to follow them. The story lines, however, are very adult, and deal with love and betrayal, murder and deceit... not very childlike, I'm thinking. Adults KILL children in the stories! How can you possibly equate that with 'kiddy books'? Don't let the fact that the tales revolve around a school throw you; and besides, I think Harry and Co. are 17 now, and will be 18 in the final book. Its about growing up in a dangerous environment, so look past some of the silly stuff (flying car = :yuck: ), and take the plots and intrigues for what they are - GOOD story telling. Once I pick one up, I don't put it down until I am finished. If I told you how many times I had to force myself to pick a book back up by a certain beloved author, I would be banned from these boards. You can be a good story teller (as both of the authors are), but it isn't so easy easy to keep a reader on the edge of his seat. At least J. K. Rowling knew her limitations and wrote her books on a level she could handle. BTW, she's a billionaire now, so I think that speaks for itself. Even the great Isaac Asimov couldn't make that boast... nor can any other author, including folks like Tolkien and Steven King. If she's a hack, like you think, then I wouldn't mind 'hackin' like her. :D
GothicDan 06-29-07, 02:44 PM	I 'll make fun of all the Gothic Dans that will travel here the very first moment they 'll land a step in our country. It's a good thing I'm under disguise with this name. I'm not Gothic at all. Mwahahaha... *Picks out which outfit to watch TV in.* Markus: I've tried the books (a few hundred pages), and genuinely don't like them. But, as I said, I don't like Tolkien, either. I love the worlds in both cases, and the ideas, but the writing styles are just off the mark for me.
GothicDan 06-29-07, 02:45 PM	Darn, how do you find all these old books???? I need a few... I'll try the libary again. I get a lot for Christmas. I ask almost solely for books or book cards from relatives, or the occasional DVD or CD. Yeah, RAS was pretty easy And you're, what, 15? ;)
Francius 06-29-07, 02:51 PM	It's a good thing I'm under disguise with this name. I'm not Gothic at all. Mwahahaha... Don't think that this will be of any help.
XHereticX 06-29-07, 02:52 PM	I get a lot for Christmas. I ask almost solely for books or book cards from relatives, or the occasional DVD or CD. And you're, what, 15? ;) Most books are pretty easy for me. A few challenges were Dune, old english stuff, and Aasmiov.
Soltares 06-29-07, 02:53 PM	I've tried the books (a few hundred pages), and genuinely don't like them. I read the Potter books only so that I can discuss them with the kids, who are big fans. Ditto Eragon (the pain, the PAIN!). I counterbalance it by having them read stuff like Ray Feist, who does not make my brain bleed or prompt me to pull out a red pen and start marking up the book. It could be worse, I guess, they could be doing drugs or into pokemon or something.
43j73x32 06-29-07, 03:08 PM	Most books are pretty easy for me. A few challenges were Dune, old english stuff, and Aasmiov. Old English are merely "challenges" on the same level as Dune and Aasimov? Well, my hat off to you, sir! Now translate this: twēode ġifena in ðȳs ġinnan grunde. Hēo ðār ðā ġearwe funde mundbyrd æt ðām mǣran Þēodne þā hēo āhte mǣste þearfe, hyldo þæs hēhstan Dēman, þæt hē hīe wið þæs hēhstan brōgan Go!
XHereticX 06-29-07, 03:14 PM	In reason. findings mundbyrd aet hyldo wið Its German right? No, old english drives me nuts, but I understand it when I really try
43j73x32 06-29-07, 03:16 PM	However I still have to say that Harry-Porter is for infants. Infants who can read Harry Potter will grow up to be much smarter than you or I, I assure you. If you think your statement could offend no one, then I think you need a little lesson on reading comprehension, connotations, and communication skills. With a dose of "How to Interact with Other Human Beings for Dummies." But don't worry. Anyone reasonably literate and well-read will dismiss your opinions anyway, on account of you thinking RAS isn't an easy read. That's my opinion, and if you're offended by it, then by god you're quick to grab.
43j73x32 06-29-07, 03:16 PM	In reason. findings mundbyrd aet hyldo wið Its German right? No, old english drives me nuts, but I understand it when I really try Fail. What I quoted is Old English. Duh.
Flicker 06-29-07, 03:17 PM	Guys, you're discussing the relative merits of popularity without a grounding rule. It doesn't matter if the Potter books where written for children (they were), adults read them as well, nor that LOTR is an adult read but many of the concepts are still modern (industry vs environment). but lets get real here, we're looking at this from a completely modern western viewpoint that accepts that current form necessarily makes it better and because I would speculate the majority on this board are above average in intelligence, we then have a long eyed view of those perhaps less intellectual who read something that is easier to digest? Is 1 better than the other, no they are just different, is potter more popular than LOTR, no, why?? because LOTR is a worldwide success and has been around for different generations and founded many peoples desires to explore new things BUT Potter is the new kid on the block and in sheer volume terms has reignited reading in a western world obsessed with the next quick fix. You're arguing a concept with no end because the comparison isn't the same and the same can be said for FR. Outside of America, fantasy does not have huge crossover appeal, don't believe me, go into a book shop in another country other than the US/Canada, the Fantasy section is tiny and usually tacked onto the SF section. Fantasy authors such as RAS or Ed rarely get onto non-US bestseller lists. Therefore please put some realism into the debate, for FR to be successful it would need to engender a worldwide appeal, say like dare I say it Eberron!!! Not to say I like Eberron, but if you want FR to survive and prosper, you really should root for Eberron, cost the more bucks it brings in, the more diversity a company can support for titles that may not produce as bigger bang for the buck? Flicker
XHereticX 06-29-07, 03:18 PM	Fail. What I quoted is Old English. Duh. Wait, I'm not talking about arachic age old english, I mean like shakesphere-age and that kind of stuff. Same words and alphabet, not that... how the hell can you even understand that stuff...
Flicker 06-29-07, 03:19 PM	[/QUOTE} It could be worse, I guess, they could be doing drugs or into pokemon or something.[/QUOTE] God ,no argh, please gibber gibber:D
43j73x32 06-29-07, 03:21 PM	Wait, I'm not talking about arachic age old english, I mean like shakesphere-age and that kind of stuff. Same words and alphabet, not that... how the hell can you even understand that stuff... ROFLMAO. Elizabethan English is not "Old English" at all. Not even remotely close. Fail fail fail. Failboat has arrived. You're on the fail short bus. So much for pretending to be well-read, sir. Please get some education.
XHereticX 06-29-07, 03:24 PM	ROFLMAO. Elizabethan English is not "Old English" at all. Not even remotely close. Fail fail fail. Failboat has arrived. You're on the fail short bus. So much for pretending to be well-read, sir. Please get some education. Bah, I know, that is just what I usually call it. And excuse me if I don't know how to read old english at age 15 you overeducated nerd:P I bet even Dan can't read old english Now tell me, can you read this???? 如果你能够读这糟糕，你是一个过分受过教育的讨厌的人 能够你去性交你自己你笨蛋，尝试看起来这样受过教育的停止和废话因为很可能你刚刚使变 得大部分那粪向上和我打赌你太这样是在学校的一名衰退的学生得到一生的低 能者
43j73x32 06-29-07, 03:28 PM	Backpedal harder! It's an excellent cover-up for ignorance. Only it's not really. You claimed to be able to read Old English. I gave you Old English. I have never claimed I can read Chinese. :) Failure in logic as in all else: it's just beautiful. Pro-tip: it is much preferable to be overeducated than undereducated. Wouldn't you agree?
Flicker 06-29-07, 03:28 PM	Bah, I know, that is just what I usually call it. And excuse me if I don't know how to read old english at age 15 you overeducated nerd:P I bet even Dan can't read old english That is a bit harsh heretic, at the end of the day, its only a language, It's sort of like a computer geek talking to you in UNIX. now if you want to start saying that the level of language denotes its complexity and therefore its intellectual level and value, I think we are off thread somehow. Flicker
XHereticX 06-29-07, 03:31 PM	Backpedal harder! It's an excellent cover-up for ignorance. Only it's not really. You claimed to be able to read Old English. I gave you Old English. I have never claimed I can read Chinese. :) Failure in logic. logic is only what you make it, I can say that killing is logical, dosen't mean it is. Oh, can u read Klingon too??? And that is far from how they wrote old english, that is more like a computer code, I highly doubt old english has little boxes in it
Flicker 06-29-07, 03:37 PM	I presume you mean Middle English and no, no boxes as far as I am aware, but even Chaucer's english would cause most people to faint nowadays. Now shakesperean english, well that's a different story, and before you say I'm overeducated, that was my high school english talking. Flicker
43j73x32 06-29-07, 03:38 PM	Hi, it's called wrong character coding. It's not my problem if you are not able to use the basic functions of your browser and adjust the font display. :( Yet it's obvious that you could see it, and are yet again backpedaling like mad, considering that you were able to try and Babelfish it under the impression that it's German. Now this, however, should display just fine on most settings: Oft him anhaga are gebideð metudes miltse, þeah þe he modcaerig geond lagulade longe sceode hreran mid hondum hrimcaelde sæ, wadan wræclastas. Wyrd biæð ful aræd! Well? Go on.
Francius 06-29-07, 03:40 PM	Infants who can read Harry Potter will grow up to be much smarter than you or I, I assure you. Irrelevant, off zero basis and ultimately says nothing about the current subject we 're discussing. Even if one day those kids you mention will grow up and become smart, that doesn't stand as a valid argument to prove that currently Harry Poter books are not for infants. I can assure this to you in case you forgot your logic in your pocket before spouting off. If you think your statement could offend no one, then I think you need a little lesson on reading comprehension, connotations, and communication skills. With a dose of "How to Interact with Other Human Beings for Dummies." My statement could not insult anyone because it didn't contain offensive words nor was it typed in a threatening/trolling/baiting/flaming manner. Though I am not surprised an individual like you failed to see it. If you cannot grasp it then I suggest you take many (and not just a few) lessons on text comprehension, perception skills and the set of attributes constituting the meaning of an insulting phrase with a huge dose of "How to Exchange Opinions in a Social Setting with other Human Beings for Imbecils". But don't worry. Anyone reasonably literate and well-read will dismiss your opinions anyway, on account of you thinking RAS isn't an easy read. That's my opinion, and if you're offended by it, then by god you're quick to grab. The fact that you think that RAS is an "easy read" (more than Harry Potter is since I see that my opinion about him made your blood pressure rise to 15), doesn't hold a candle in justifying the empty insults you threw at me for no reason. And don't worry, I am not insulted. In fact the slugmess alone you put down as a post shows that "anyone reasonably literate and well-read (:rofl: )" will not take offense by it just like a horse won't feel insulted by an elephant calling him fat.
XHereticX 06-29-07, 03:40 PM	I presume you mean Middle English and no, no boxes as far as I am aware, but even Chaucer's english would cause most people to faint nowadays. Now shakesperean english, well that's a different story, and before you say I'm overeducated, that was my high school english talking. Flicker I love shakespherean english, and no that is cool, not overeducated, I just have problems undearstading it a little. Hey, I have a life here, I don't spend all my time reading. I just coudn't stand that guy pretending to be all smart and all when all he did was go online to some computer program and typed in something to get a translation. Then calls me undereducated. Yeah right, go back and smoke your pot bozo.
43j73x32 06-29-07, 03:43 PM	I love shakespherean english, and no that is cool, not overeducated, I just have problems undearstading it a little. Hey, I have a life here, I don't spend all my time reading. I just coudn't stand that guy pretending to be all smart and all when all he did was go online to some computer program and typed in something to get a translation. Then calls me undereducated. Yeah right, go back and smoke your pot bozo. Well, you certainly are acting your age. Clearly, anyone who's more educated than you (and that's a lot of people, you know)... has no life? Uh-huh. Okay. I'll give you a few years to grow up, then maybe you'll actually be able to hold a halfway rational discussion.
43j73x32 06-29-07, 03:44 PM	The fact that you think that RAS is an "easy read" (more than Harry Potter is since I see that my opinion about him made your blood pressure rise to 15), doesn't hold a candle in justifying the empty insults you threw at me for no reason. Eh? Quote where I said RAS is an easier read than HP? Oh, wait, you specialize in putting words in people's mouths, so never mind. By all means, bang that straw man harder. In fact the slugmess alone you put down as a post shows that "anyone reasonably literate and well-read (:rofl: )" will not take offense by it just like a horse won't feel insulted by an elephant calling him fat. Would anyone like to translate this mess into English for me? By the way, you don't know what the word "infant" means, do you?
XHereticX 06-29-07, 03:45 PM	I can't find a site to translate it, and I don't bother, and I don't see how that makes one educated. I translated it to something Francius the Italian can understand In effetti gli slugmess da solo che posate mentre un alberino indica che "chiunque ragionevolmente literate e bene-ha letto ()" non prenderà l'offesa da esso appena come un cavallo non riterrà insultato da un elefante che lo denomina grasso
XHereticX 06-29-07, 03:48 PM	Well, you certainly are acting your age. Clearly, anyone who's more educated than you (and that's a lot of people, you know)... has no life? Uh-huh. Okay. I'll give you a few years to grow up, then maybe you'll actually be able to hold a halfway rational discussion. Judging by the way you type, I can tell you are not very educated. You don't understand old english, you are just using babelfish. Insulting woudn't get you anywhere either, that does not show intelligence.
43j73x32 06-29-07, 03:48 PM	You're... kind of missing the point, aren't you? Btw, Babelfish is evil and makes you look a little silly. And... the quotes I provided weren't from Babelfish. I'm pretty sure there's no translation programs that give you Old English, the language being what it is. You're so nonsensical, and almost endearing.
Francius 06-29-07, 03:50 PM	Eh? Quote where I said RAS is an easier read than HP? Oh, wait, you specify in putting words in people's mouths, so never mind. By all means, hit that straw man harder. You didn't say it directly yet there was a clear allusion to it in your messy text. That was clearly an act of covering your rear orifice. Smart, but not so. (Should I translate that for you?Should I really?)
XHereticX 06-29-07, 03:50 PM	You're... kind of missing the point, aren't you? Btw, Babelfish is evil and makes you look a little silly. The point is on the end of the needle ur using it too, so... No actually educated person goes on a FR forum and starts talking about how undereducated people are just to make themselves feel better
43j73x32 06-29-07, 03:52 PM	Dear child, I am not using Babelfish to get Old English text. I'd be impressed if anyone could come up with a Babelfishesque program that can do that, honestly. You didn't say it directly yet there was a clear allusion to it in your messy text. Now you're not even making sense. :( I made no allusions; you are making assumptions. And if anyone's got syntactical problems, I'm quite certain it's not me.
Francius 06-29-07, 03:53 PM	No actually educated person goes on a FR forum and starts talking about how undereducated people are just to make themselves feel better Well, actually there are those kind of people you know. They are called losers and no-lifers. We 've just encountered one here.
XHereticX 06-29-07, 03:53 PM	Well, you obviously are using some computer program, or are those little boxes that showed up the work of your actual typing:D Dude, you don't even play FR, so get... By the way, all of your posts so far is full of **** that has nothing to do with D&D
Flicker 06-29-07, 03:53 PM	That's fine Heretic, this thread was meant to be about WoTC and hating FR but we seem to have degenerated into throwing insults at each other and i'm sorry Francius if you can't see what could be taken as offensive in your posts you really do need to re-read them and try to think how somebody less educated may feel. Anyways, trying to get back on thread again, I don't think we have a situation of hating a setting, we have a situation of making money. Successful companies diversify to make more money, Coke and Coke Classic anyone, look at the uproar that caused. Now here's the killer, if the bean counters took FR too far from its original roots so the core people who bought it didn't, they'd have to attract a new audience to replace it and if they do that in the same style as Eberron, you don't have diversity anymore, therefore sales suffer on both sides. I would think the business tactics are to make the FR books more accessible(more Eberronish, shudder) which will make some hardcore people drop off, but may make new people come on, at the end of the day its a balancing act.
43j73x32 06-29-07, 03:56 PM	That's fine Heretic, this thread was meant to be about WoTC and hating FR but we seem to have degenerated into throwing insults at each other and i'm sorry Francius if you can't see what could be taken as offensive in your posts you really do need to re-read them and try to think how somebody less educated may feel. Are you implying that only less-educated people'd take offense at his posts? GothicDan, as far as I know, is quite well-educated - most likely more than Francius.
Francius 06-29-07, 03:56 PM	Now you're not even making sense. :( I made no allusions; you are making assumptions. And if anyone's got syntactical problems, I'm quite certain it's not me. Like I expected you to comprehend a single line. Way to prove how smart you are answering to something you didn't even get in the first place - that was an allusion you made before and not an assumption. The assumption was by my part for your allusion. You don't have syntactical problems 'cause they are overshadowed by the comprehension ones you possess.
43j73x32 06-29-07, 03:58 PM	Who taught you English? The person needs to be fired from whatever institution he/she is working at.
XHereticX 06-29-07, 03:58 PM	Are you implying that only less-educated people'd take offense at his posts? GothicDan, as far as I know, is quite well-educated - most likely more than Francius. You my friend, are being far more offensive than Francius ever will be. (not saying Francius isn't offensive, but you are just pushing my self-destruct button now) And at least Francius actually knows something about FR and is on topic, your only here because you are a ***** and you enjoy trolling people.
Francius 06-29-07, 03:59 PM	Are you implying that only less-educated people'd take offense at his posts? GothicDan, as far as I know, is quite well-educated - most likely more than Francius. Nice steering of the discussion to something irrelevant just because you 've now found yourself with your back against the wall.
XHereticX 06-29-07, 04:00 PM	Sorry about my flaming and use of inappropriate language, normally I am more civil than this, but this guy is just getting me P.Oed beyond belief. Lets stop before the WizOs show up.
Francius 06-29-07, 04:01 PM	Who taught you English? The person needs to be fired from whatever institution he/she is working at. Who taught you reasoning and logic? That person should be tossed out and sued by every school/istitution of your country he/she is working at.
MarkusTay63 06-29-07, 05:07 PM	Attention Mods: I would like to place everyone contrbuting to this thread on report, including myself. I let my temper get the best of me on a touchy subject. Please lock this down now. BTW, there is a diffeence between old English (Shakespearean) and Auld English (as in 'archaic'). ;) Dan is a fan of style as well as content, and I can understand that. I too applaud the greats that can keep me entertained AND challenge my wit. However, a good yarn is a good yarn, even if told in the form of a children's story. Most of the classic 'Disney' versions of Fairy tales are watered down garbage compared to their originals. Have you ever read the REAL versions of Hansel and Gretel, or Little Red Riding Hood? D&D's own 'Baba Yaga' comes from Russian folklore, and she is anything but 'childish'. Have you ever read the original 'Grimm's Fairy Tales'? They are not written in any sort of 'adult style', but they are still good reads. Unlike Dan, I am fortunate enough to be able to look beyond the 'weak' writing and enjoy the story. Otherwise I would not be able to read 95% of the FR novels published... RAS included.
43j73x32 06-29-07, 05:51 PM	Dan is a fan of style as well as content, and I can understand that. I too applaud the greats that can keep me entertained AND challenge my wit. However, a good yarn is a good yarn, even if told in the form of a children's story. Most of the classic 'Disney' versions of Fairy tales are watered down garbage compared to their originals. Have you ever read the REAL versions of hansel and Gretel, or Little Red Riding Hood? D&D's own 'Baba Yaga' comes from Russian folklore, and she is anything but 'childish'. I have read the older versions - to use the word "originals" or "real" is a little misleading, by the way, since there's no set-in-stone source for these stories and, no, Brothers Grimm's were not the original - I think Disneyfied versions are mangled travesties. I didn't even like some of them when I was young enough to be part of the target audience. Have you ever read the original 'Grimm's Fairy Tales'? They are not written in any sort of 'adult style', but they are still good reads. Unlike Dan, I am fortunate enough to be able to look beyond the 'weak' writing and enjoy the story. Not a particularly apt comparison due to cultural differences and the style of the time - I doubt anything written in the eighteenth century would be considered like "adult" fiction of today and some would be considered stylistic atrocities. Especially since, you know, most people will have read Grimm in translation.
XHereticX 06-29-07, 06:17 PM	I have read the older versions - to use the word "originals" or "real" is a little misleading, by the way, since there's no set-in-stone source for these stories and, no, Brothers Grimm's were not the original - I think Disneyfied versions are mangled travesties. I didn't even like some of them when I was young enough to be part of the target audience. Not a particularly apt comparison due to cultural differences and the style of the time - I doubt anything written in the eighteenth century would be considered like "adult" fiction of today and some would be considered stylistic atrocities. Especially since, you know, most people will have read Grimm in translation. I thought there were really no "original" fairy tales beyond Grimm. Grimm just based his tales off old folk legends and modified them, am I right?
MarkusTay63 06-29-07, 06:19 PM	I gave up on Disney when they made Hera Hercule's mother! :eek: It just changed the entire thing, ya know? Meg was hot, though. ;)
XHereticX 06-29-07, 06:20 PM	I gave up on Disney when they made Hera Hercule's mother! :eek: It just changed the entire thing, ya know? Meg was hot, though. ;) I never liked Disney (well, I did when I was really little). I prefer Japanese animation any day. Whatever, as long as it attracts people, who really cares if it is "authentic" or not.
Calmar 06-29-07, 08:06 PM	Mud, everywhere mud. Miles of barbed wire, blood and mines and craters filled with more mud after the rain. Probably no one can tell what this thread is about anymore. Nor why there is this discussion about the niveau of Rowling's books, or how educated some board members are, either. It has all been devoured by the mud... :)
Fanatic66 06-29-07, 08:46 PM	Harry Potter is a book for infants and elementary kids at best. Thus the grand vast majority of fans are in their early 10s - you won't see many adults reading them. :eek: Sorry Francius but I find your words offensive. Right now I'm doubting you read the books at all. They're filled with murder, deception, violence, and complex plots. Kids and adults are killed off, and you're saying these books are for infants and elementary kids! Contrary to what you believe a lot adults read them, almost everyone in my family and my friends' families (including their parents). My grandmother reads them for god's sake! Ignorance is no excuse to demean the Harry Potter books. J.K. Rowling deserves all the credit she gets. Her books appeal to a wide range of ages, but I doubt you'll see many infants or elementary kids reading them, especially the last few books (they're darker). Like I said before the books are filled with deep, complex stories, murder, betrayal, and I could go on. So please, next time you decide to criticize know what you are talking about. Back to the original poster: FR is far from dying. It has way more material than Eberron will have for a while. Don't forget all the novels. FR also has plenty of games why can't they spread the love. After all it's only one game. How many games does FR have under its belt? This setting is secure and I don't have any fear of it going any time soon. Don't listen to the doom sayers.
Dark Wizard 06-29-07, 09:20 PM	A quick google search will show Potter is not limited to a young audience. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/2975466.stm http://www.tufts.edu/home/feature/?p=potter Or this quote from the Amazon.co.uk Editorial Review for the Goblet of Fire: "This is a hefty volume: 636 pages, of which probably at least 200 could have been cut without detracting from the story. The weight and complexity of the book is perhaps a hint that Rowling now has her eye sharply focused on her adult audience, and the average child-reader (particularly one who is coming to Harry Potter for the first time) may well find its girth daunting. Rowling's ironic and pointed observations on tabloid journalism and the nature of media hype is just one of the references littered through the book that will tickle the grown-ups but may well fly over the heads of her young fans." Even this quote from Wikipedia supports the existence of a wider readership for the Potter books than just children - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter "The series has also gathered adult fans, leading to two editions of each Harry Potter book being released (in Canada and the United Kingdom, not the United States), identical in text but with one edition's cover artwork aimed at children and the other aimed at adults." Wikipedia may not be an infallible source, but the alternate covers marketed towards children and adults do in fact exist: http://madbookseller.blogspot.com/2007/03/judging-book-by-its-cover.html While I don't have any sort of demographics (which would be nearly definitive evidence), this does strongly hint at a far wider audience than some seem to think.
Fanatic66 06-29-07, 09:47 PM	A quick google search will show Potter is not limited to a young audience. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/2975466.stm http://www.tufts.edu/home/feature/?p=potter Or this quote from the Amazon.co.uk Editorial Review for the Goblet of Fire: "This is a hefty volume: 636 pages, of which probably at least 200 could have been cut without detracting from the story. The weight and complexity of the book is perhaps a hint that Rowling now has her eye sharply focused on her adult audience, and the average child-reader (particularly one who is coming to Harry Potter for the first time) may well find its girth daunting. Rowling's ironic and pointed observations on tabloid journalism and the nature of media hype is just one of the references littered through the book that will tickle the grown-ups but may well fly over the heads of her young fans." Even this quote from Wikipedia supports the existence of a wider readership for the Potter books than just children - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter "The series has also gathered adult fans, leading to two editions of each Harry Potter book being released (in Canada and the United Kingdom, not the United States), identical in text but with one edition's cover artwork aimed at children and the other aimed at adults." Wikipedia may not be an infallible source, but the alternate covers marketed towards children and adults do in fact exist: http://madbookseller.blogspot.com/2007/03/judging-book-by-its-cover.html While I don't have any sort of demographics (which would be nearly definitive evidence), this does strongly hint at a far wider audience than some seem to think. :clap: :bow: Thank you. I can't believe some people think the Harry Potter books are for little kids.
Sullivan 06-29-07, 10:06 PM	Harry Potter is a book for infants... Never mind the fact infants cannot read... You Death Eater, you! I traveled to the future and back again, just so I could buy a single volume hardback edition of the entire series, just so Icould smack you with it. (Whack!)
GothicDan 06-29-07, 11:05 PM	I can't read true Old English, such as that posted here. Chaucer isn't too bad, but really, his stuff is Middle English, heavily inspired by Old French. (And Shakespeare is Middle English at 'best,' heavily inspired by Italian dramas.) But I CAN translate some pretty old Latin. ;)
GothicDan 06-29-07, 11:08 PM	Unlike Dan, I am fortunate enough to be able to look beyond the 'weak' writing and enjoy the story. I can look beyond weak writing. But when it gets so bad that it literally gets in the way of me being able to concentrate on the story, there's a problem. I watch most movies solely for special effects and pretty boys - reading I reserve for my intellectual stimulation. Otherwise I would not be able to read 95% of the FR novels published... RAS included. __________________ Hence why I don't read FR stuff. :)
XHereticX 06-29-07, 11:32 PM	I can't read true Old English, such as that posted here. Chaucer isn't too bad, but really, his stuff is Middle English, heavily inspired by Old French. (And Shakespeare is Middle English at 'best,' heavily inspired by Italian dramas.) But I CAN translate some pretty old Latin. ;) Ahh, shakesphere/Dante stuff, I can read and enjoy. Real old english, I don't have a clue, but apparently that nerd does... I took Latin for a year before my Latin teacher moved to Korea, too bad:( I don't really care for language as long as its a good story, heck, I read everything from classics to anime fanfics, and often I enjoy the latter far, far more
GothicDan 06-29-07, 11:51 PM	I really liked Ivanhoe back in 9th grade. I truly despise most classic "American" literature.
Dr_Tough 06-29-07, 11:59 PM	Shakespeare is modern English, for the record. Also, why do you despise American literature? I think Vonnegut, for example, is delightful
Jhiroth 06-30-07, 12:17 AM	The FR books are far outnumbered by *which* other worlds? In terms of number of products? Dragonlance for sure, but I was originally thinking more in terms of the other worlds collectively. You have 8 new FR novels counting up to July of this year, as well as another 6 Salvatore re-releases. There are 6 more new FR novels scheduled to be released by year's end, 7 if you count the Salvatore re-release. By contrast there are 5 Eberron novels out during the same time frame, with 2 more scheduled. There are 9 Dragonlance novels out by the same standard of time once more, and 7 more due out this year as well. I am not that familiar with Dragonlance so I do not have accurate re-release numbers. That gives us 14 FR novels this year (+7 Salvatore re-releases), 16 Dragonlance novels, and and 7 Eberron ones. The number of products to be published in 2007 for both the Forgotten Realms and Eberron is equal in quantity if not somewhat more for the FR. I just showed you above that statement is false. That was just the novels. You can do the math on the accessories, but be sure to count D&D accessories as non-FR. I think you will see cold hard facts. The novels to be printed then are by FAR FAR FAR FAR more numerous for the Forgotten Realms. Sure, if you count Salvatore re-releases. Still the rest combined just in novels is more then the FR. 21 even if you count the Salvatore re-releases, compared to 23 Eberron/Dragonlance. I didn't even count Ravenloft or other such products and this is just novels. The designing teams for the two worlds cannot even be compared. Now there, we agree :) Open your eyes or stop whining and you 'll realize that the content is there. Hopefully you won't always resort to flames to back up lack of facts. Moving on... The Realms sell more and Wotc does not hate them. I agree somewhat, but the term 'hate' was figurative. I simply meant there is a dedicated following of fans out there literally clamoring for more content. I personally believe the % of content should be more FR. I think the WizOs should start closing/forbidding these kind of discussions. I'll have to quote Morpheus when I say I guess I am glad then that you aren't in charge of the WizO's.
GothicDan 06-30-07, 12:35 AM	Shakespeare is modern English, for the record. Thanks. I really am not enough of a Shakespeare fan to have made a proper stance on which linguistic 'period' he fell into. Also, why do you despise American literature? I think Vonnegut, for example, is delightful It may just be the sampling I've had. Huck Finn, Grapes of Wrath, Death of a Salesman, Old Man and the Sea... Maybe it was just 10th grade English class that made me hate it so.
Dr_Tough 06-30-07, 12:57 AM	Old Man and the Sea... Maybe it was just 10th grade English class that made me hate it so. Well, Old Man of the Sea really wasn't very good. I don't see why high school English teachers make their students read that. To re-establish your faith in American fiction, you should try Slaughterhouse 5, it's got a guy who gets "unstuck in time" in it.
GothicDan 06-30-07, 01:02 AM	I think they make them read it to drive hatred into their hearts. I've heard about Slaughterhouse 5. I'll have to try it, once I get through my current piles of books.
Dr_Tough 06-30-07, 01:06 AM	I think they make them read it to drive hatred into their hearts. I've heard about Slaughterhouse 5. I'll have to try it, once I get through my current piles of books. It's a quick read, I got through it in about a day and a half of on and off reading. As a matter-of-fact, my sig is part of the novel's subtitle: Slaughterhouse 5 or The Children's Crusade: A Duty-Dance With Death
GothicDan 06-30-07, 01:15 AM	So much alliteration.
43j73x32 06-30-07, 01:51 AM	I thought there were really no "original" fairy tales beyond Grimm. Grimm just based his tales off old folk legends and modified them, am I right? Grimm collected and published them. It's no more the original than Chretien de Troyes' romances are the "original" Arthurian myth. Shakespeare is modern English, for the record. Thank you. Finally someone who knows this. Speaking of American literature - well, let's hear it for Mark Twain. IMO, he's one of the better authors the USA has to offer, and I don't personally enjoy a great deal of canonical American lit either. (Though I, for one, actually like Arthur Miller.)
GothicDan 06-30-07, 01:59 AM	Hey, at least I wasn't confusing Shakespeare with Old English, and I knew some of his literary inspiration. Not bad for a Physics major, I say. :P Let's see how much any English buffs know about the decay rates of muons in the atmosphere...
Dr_Tough 06-30-07, 02:00 AM	Thank you. Finally someone who knows this. Well, it's not that hard to figure out. If you can read it, it's modern English. If you can kind of, sort of read it, the words have too many letters, and some look like German, it's probably Middle English. If you have no idea what it says and some of the letters look like something someone just made up and it all looks like gibberish, it's probably Old English. Oh yeah, and WotC doesn't hate FR. It's just that FR has a lot of releases for it already from several edition of D&D, so there is only so much new material to put out without retreading on something.
GothicDan 06-30-07, 02:02 AM	Gibber'glish = Old English. Heh. And I don't think it's fair to compare the amount of FR material being annually printed versus that being printed by ALL other worlds combined. That's like trying to compare the amount parents spend on their children in very.. Unfair ways.
captaincarot 06-30-07, 03:02 AM	Gibber'glish = Old English. Heh. And I don't think it's fair to compare the amount of FR material being annually printed versus that being printed by ALL other worlds combined. That's like trying to compare the amount parents spend on their children in very.. Unfair ways. in many ways old english is quite understandable. especially if one speaks flemmish also.
captaincarot 06-30-07, 03:24 AM	I believe the same about yours. had the fact, that harry potters next book been ordered in the adult version in greater numbers than the childs version world wide, not been a subject of discussion in several of britains national newspapers, on the BBC website and on the national news, then i would say you might have a slight case for your assertion, but then once again you assert that the person using facts as the basis for their argument, is the one who is wrong. possibly when you make assertions on a subject you could actually pay some attention to observed and published facts. an observance of facts tends to strengthen ones assertions and helps one build a case. otherwise winning an argument based on your valueless opinion is impossible when faced with someone armed with the details of reality i.e. published verified facts dear boy.
Ranger REG 06-30-07, 03:58 AM	Stormreach was meant to go head to head with World of Warcraft, so they chose a setting with cheesy neo-tech (trams, flying ships, etc) just like WoW to draw the customers away. If WotC means to develop Stormreach to compete with WoW & EQ, then they went in with the wrong mindset. Problem is, Blizzard fans are loyal, and aren't going anywhere. Somebody at Hasbro should of done their homework. The only chance another MMORPG had against WoW was to be radically different then it, and a traditional high-fantasy setting would have worked, especially riding the wave created by the LotRs movies and Narnia. Hell, we even got us a big ol' lion god and everything. :D Meh. Before there was WoW there was EQ, and it has its own legion of fans. Sooner or later, another MMORPG would have wiped the floor off WoW, and it will have its own legion of fans.
boards 06-30-07, 06:43 AM	Oops
MarkusTay63 06-30-07, 01:23 PM	Blizzard is already planning on creating the game that will de-throne their own. They are not stupid... they are very successful and understand shelf-life PERFECTLY. Diablo III, anyone? ;)
XHereticX 06-30-07, 04:34 PM	Blizzard is already planning on creating the game that will de-throne their own. They are not stupid... they are very successful and understand shelf-life PERFECTLY. Diablo III, anyone? ;) OMG, yes plz, being a HUGE fan of D2, I would die to see that game come out. Yeah, I don't know old english, but consitering its germanic origins and style of speech, I have a hunch that it is somewhere between modern english and old german.
Soltares 06-30-07, 05:14 PM	Yeah, I don't know old english, but consitering its germanic origins and style of speech, I have a hunch that it is somewhere between modern english and old german. Old English is more Germanic (and I can't really read it, although Middle English is easy enough, we had to read the Canterbury Tales in Middle English back when I got my amazingly useless English/Medieval History degrees...). Modern English has a lot of Romance / French stuff mangled into it. If those darn English didn't get conquered by so many different people during their history, we might have a language that wasn't a bastardized hodge-podge of everyone who has ever kicked their butts.
ORC_Paradox 06-30-07, 05:17 PM	Wow, way off topic. :)