Post/Author/DateTime	Post
18DELTA 01-15-08, 03:05 PM	-I want to start up by saying, I know that a thread is up about Races and Classes. I dont want to clutter that thread up by posting about World's and Monsters. Just got it from the FLGS. Nice artwork, just started to read it. But I have to go to a staff meeting at work on my day off darn it!:( -I noticed that Richard Baker was on the Team to redesign the "FLAVOR" of D&D. So could that also be a reason for the redesign of the Realms? Trickle down effect maybe? They said they want Orc's and Gnoll's to be different. Orc's you fight Brutes basically, Gnoll's are cowardly skirmisher's. - Will post more, anybody else have it and would like add their :twocents: P.S. The Delver wont make the cut!!!:mad: ;) LORD DELTA:)
Alediran 01-15-08, 03:24 PM	Tell us more, I want to know more about the slaughter of the realms.
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 03:32 PM	Check the Enworld link in my post, most of the good stuff starts on pge 2. ;) -I want to start up by saying, I know that a thread is up about Races and Classes. I dont want to clutter that thread up by posting about World's and Monsters. Do you read that thread? I have already started posting material about W&M over there, because I didn't want to START A SECOND THREAD, about pretty much the same subject. There is a huge thread, chock full of info, over at Enworld (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=215979&page=1&pp=30), that has been covering everything in this tome for about a week. I have to say, I like the stuff in W&M way better then R&C. Hmmm... while looking for the link, I realized YOU were the one who originally gave it to me - Thanks. I still haven't seen this book, but that thread pretty much told me everything I needed to know.
msatran 01-15-08, 04:20 PM	I don't. Copper Dragon. Gone. Brass Dragon. Gone. This is like the amazing jello crunch mold. You can't even play in the old worlds anymore. Long Live Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms! And curse Chris Perkins, the man who stomped them into the dirt and made us bleed money for it.
Rauric 01-15-08, 04:21 PM	I don't. Copper Dragon. Gone. Brass Dragon. Gone. This is like the amazing jello crunch mold. You can't even play in the old worlds anymore. Long Live Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms! And curse Chris Perkins, the man who stomped them into the dirt and made us bleed money for it. So you bought the preview I take it?
msatran 01-15-08, 04:26 PM	Yes, I did. I pass the copy around my gaming group. It really feels like they're going back to second edition for me. Heck, half of their new rules are things I actually implemented in second edition.
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 04:29 PM	If you read that Enworld thread, you don't need the preview... unless you are one of those people who need to own a copy of everything. ;) Funny, but when I first began playing in 1e, and bought the Monster Manual, I didn't like either of those - the rest of the Dragons were 'pure' metals, whereas those were really 'Alloy Dragons'. So, thirty some-odd years later, the designers agree with me. :D They should have come to me sooner... :rolleyes: Anyway, the Iron Dragon makes sense (there was actually a game and a novel with that name), But I would have preferred a Mithril Dragon over an Adamantine. Ah, well.... Giants with abilities that tie them to the Elements? It appears some of these designers have really gone back to the drawing board, and are making 4e monsters much closer to their folk-lore counterparts. This is SO how I've been envisioning D&D working for years! I just wish they didn't feel the need to 'Nuke' FR on the way... :(
Rauric 01-15-08, 04:39 PM	See that's the thing. Lots of gamers feel the need to buy everything. Sometimes they even buy things they know they may not like. It is a collector mentality for some. I think that is what will happen with the FR stuff. People may just buy it becuase of the FR tag on it, even if they may never use it. I bet you the Previews of 4e is being bought by tons of folks that know they will hate the new rules. They just need it for some reason. Not saying it is bad, it is just how our hobby works it seems.
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 04:50 PM	Hey, there's nothing wrong with those kinds of people... I still have shrink-wrap on most of my Planescape and Dark Sun stuff... :(
Fingoldfin 01-15-08, 04:52 PM	See that's the thing. Lots of gamers feel the need to buy everything. Sometimes they even buy things they know they may not like. It is a collector mentality for some. I think that is what will happen with the FR stuff. People may just buy it becuase of the FR tag on it, even if they may never use it. I bet you the Previews of 4e is being bought by tons of folks that know they will hate the new rules. They just need it for some reason. Not saying it is bad, it is just how our hobby works it seems. I agree with you. Many people are buying those stupid preview books even though they don't contain much useful information. You can flip through them at the store to look at the pretty pictures and read all the info for free on the web. Why pay $ 20.00 for that crap?
Rauric 01-15-08, 04:53 PM	Hey, there's nothing wrong with those kinds of people... I still have shrink-wrap on most of my Planescape and Dark Sun stuff... :( Heh. I did say there was nothing wrong with it. I just said our hobby is filled with them.
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 04:57 PM	That was then - I did that with TSR products... and nearly every other RPG company out there. After TSR sank, I decided to be more conservative with my purchases. Now I ONLY buy what I think I will use in a game. What that basically did was free up more money for novels - not just FR either - so I was able to get my imagination 'fix' without buying some pretty terrible sourcebooks.
Rauric 01-15-08, 05:00 PM	Yeah, TSR got me good bakc in the day. I was only a teenager though so my need for any FR book was greater plus I lived at home and had a job. I could do it back then.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-15-08, 06:02 PM	I don't. Copper Dragon. Gone. Brass Dragon. Gone. I heard that they aren't gone, they are just coming later.:) Anyway, I plan to head over to the bookstore and pick this up myself, although there's bad weather (snow) right now so I don't feel like going for a joyride.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-15-08, 06:04 PM	I agree with you. Many people are buying those stupid preview books even though they don't contain much useful information. You can flip through them at the store to look at the pretty pictures and read all the info for free on the web. Why pay $ 20.00 for that crap? For my part, I like to be able to look at the books whenever I want.:) That's just me though, and I'm crazy.
18DELTA 01-15-08, 10:59 PM	I agree with you. Many people are buying those stupid preview books even though they don't contain much useful information. You can flip through them at the store to look at the pretty pictures and read all the info for free on the web. Why pay $ 20.00 for that crap? -As I has said once or twice before, if WotC put out a book called Complete Crap I would probably buy it. Why you ask? To support the Local FLGS, thats why.:) -Here is some food for thought:On page 67 in Wizard's Presents: World's and Monsters it says that Yugoloths are reconcepted in 4E. They are now Demons!:( Mezzoloths and Nycaloths are Mezzodemons and Nycademons. The Mezzodemon is in the 4E MM. They are a strain of Demon. Not going to spoil it all. I like what they are doing with the Core World, for the most part. I reserve Judgement on The Realms until I see more.;) LORD DELTA:mymy:
18DELTA 01-15-08, 11:01 PM	For my part, I like to be able to look at the books whenever I want.:) That's just me though, and I'm crazy. -Thats why we all love you!!!:D LORD DELTA:cloud9:
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 11:23 PM	Damn... I liked the Lolths - it was nice having 'neutral' parties amongst the fiends. :( Wasn't there another race, the one that supposedly created the Demons and Devils? I forget their name (type), but are they mentioned at all? Will they be getting 'folded' into the other two as well? :confused: Wait until Shemmy finds out she doesn't exist any more. :nonono:
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 12:02 AM	Wasn't there another race, the one that supposedly created the Demons and Devils? I forget their name (type), but are they mentioned at all? Will they be getting 'folded' into the other two as well? :confused[/QUOTE] -Yugoloths. -I'm confused about Yugoloths, now, though. The Yugoloths created Demons and Devils. Now, Yugoloths are Demons. They created themselves?
Kenzuki 01-16-08, 12:19 AM	Damn, they're good.
Rauric 01-16-08, 12:20 AM	I liked the loths when I was younger , now I think there just another demonlike thing, but "neutral. Blah.
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 12:28 AM	Damn, they're good. -If they can create themselves, barring chronomancy (as I am sure MT is going to bring up at some point), then yes, yes they are.
msatran 01-16-08, 01:03 AM	The problem is that the mechanics could be wonderful, but if they don't support my existing playerbase, then there's no point.
Fingoldfin 01-16-08, 01:27 AM	Damn... I liked the Lolths - it was nice having 'neutral' parties amongst the fiends. :( Wasn't there another race, the one that supposedly created the Demons and Devils? I forget their name (type), but are they mentioned at all? Will they be getting 'folded' into the other two as well? :confused: Wait until Shemmy finds out she doesn't exist any more. :nonono: According to Faces of Evil (2e Planescape/ Monte Cook) the Yugoloths spread lies that they created demons and devils. The changes in yugoloths change the entire character of their race. It is a retcon. Yugoloths were schemers and manipulators. Now they are just demon things that kill stuff. I'll stick with my Planescape lore. Where's Gothic Dan at, he'll back me up on this?
18DELTA 01-16-08, 01:33 AM	Wasn't there another race, the one that supposedly created the Demons and Devils? I forget their name (type), but are they mentioned at all? Will they be getting 'folded' into the other two as well? :confused -Yugoloths. -I'm confused about Yugoloths, now, though. The Yugoloths created Demons and Devils. Now, Yugoloths are Demons. They created themselves? --They are a strain of Demon, they serve a yet unnamed Demon Lord. Still Merc's, but with no Blood War going on, they work with humans. Demons are "Brutes" monsters. Yugodemons are "Soldiers" monsters. 30 YEARS OF LORE DONT MATTER IN 4E!!!:eek: -The Demon Lords like Orcus, Demogorgon are now called "Primordials" but still Demon Lords The Great Wheel IS Dead!!! No more needless symmetry. pg 17 W/M LORD DELTA:detect:
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 01:37 AM	Maybe the loths will become the 'thinkers' amongst demonkind? Who the hell knows - they're ugly to me. Maybe I was thinking of the Demodands, or the Daemons... :confused:
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 01:45 AM	-There is no Blood War anymore? Where's Gothic Dan at, he'll back me up on this? -He's on vacation.
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 01:46 AM	-There is no Blood War anymore?Nope - they all made kissy face. --He's on vacation.Ummmm... same as above? ;)
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 01:48 AM	Nope - they all made kissy face. -As in, some kind of amazing truce was reached, or as in it was retconned to have never happened in the first place?
18DELTA 01-16-08, 01:58 AM	-There is no Blood War anymore? -Its over!!!:eek: Point #14 on their "Key Conceits" pg 14 W/M less evil fighting evil in the "Core World". 30 Years of Lore dont matter anymore. WotC is making the Game theirs not a TSR castoff. What we know about the game is changing. Its still D&D, just a little different now(June I mean). LORD DELTA:detect:
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 02:00 AM	I don't really know, but since there is no longer a neutral plane connecting the two, it makes it a little hard to have a war, eh? ;) Unless they say that the Bloodwar takes place on Prime material worlds, kinda like during the Cold war when America and Russia would fight in everyone else's country. :P If they do that, then yeah, thats a total retcon, but at least we would still have some sort of history of contention between them.
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 02:03 AM	-Meh, whatever. In my homebrew, the Blood War is still going strong, so the refugees from the nullified "official" Blood War can migrate to my Cosmology.
18DELTA 01-16-08, 02:14 AM	-As in, some kind of amazing truce was reached, or as in it was retconned to have never happened in the first place? -Its a retcon IMHO. It never happened.:rolleyes: -30 years of lore, down the tubes. Like that "POOF" as msa likes to say. All through the book its says "Re-Concept". -These are the KEY CONCEITS: 1)The World is more Fantastic. 2)The World is Ancient. 3)The World is Mysterious. $)Monsters Exist All Over. 5)Creatures need a Place in the World. 6)Adventures are Exceptional.;) 7)Magic is not everyday, but its Natural. 8)Good and Evil mean more. 9)Remote Gods. 10)One Sun, One Moon. 11)No forced Race Relations. 12)Death matters Differently. 13)Fantastic Locations.:D 14)Less Evil fighting Evil. That is the Core World. Now where did any of those Concepts filter into the Realms? Some are obvious. LORD DELTA:detect:
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 02:18 AM	-I don't understand. There isn't a Core Setting anymore, as in a place where one can actually campaign...What is all of this for? Ideas/Tips for DMs? Ideas the designers were keeping in mind when changing the Realms (since Eberron was not changed)?
18DELTA 01-16-08, 02:32 AM	-I don't understand. There isn't a Core Setting anymore, as in a place where one can actually campaign...What is all of this for? Ideas/Tips for DMs? Ideas the designers were keeping in mind when changing the Realms (since Eberron was not changed)? -Here is the rub. On page 24 W/M "Matthew Sernett" Talks about how they wanted to make the realms the core world! They decided against it because HERE IT COMES 'They didnt want to alienate "some" of the fan base:ahem: All carried years of history, some of which "CONFLICTED" with how we(WotC) wanted to improve and CHANGE D&D's identity. :rolleyes: LORD DELTA:detect:
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 02:34 AM	-I don't understand. There isn't a Core Setting anymore, as in a place where one can actually campaign...What is all of this for? Ideas/Tips for DMs? Ideas the designers were keeping in mind when changing the Realms (since Eberron was not changed)?You know, thats another one of those bizarro "do they even have a clue?" moments, when i was reading through that stuff. It sounds like they came up with lots of ideas... for a world they DON'T plan to make! I have my suspicians how thats all gonna pan-out, and I've voiced the bare-bones of them over on the designer thread. It appears that most of the 'adventures' will take place in these misty, new 'in-between' realms - like the Feywild, the Shadowfell, Abeir/Far Realms, the Elemental Tempest or whatever the heck they're calling it these days, etc, etc... That way, they can create a slew of modules (crappy ones that don't require any lore), and just insert them into these 'border areas'. Now they can 'appear' in anyone's world! Wallah! Instant, modular adventures, ready-to-go... just add water. Thats how they want it to play out, and the miniatures are being connected better to the rules, so that a DM can run the monsters right off the stat cards. Its all about the Phat Lewtz from now on.
Fingoldfin 01-16-08, 02:36 AM	-I don't understand. There isn't a Core Setting anymore, as in a place where one can actually campaign...What is all of this for? Ideas/Tips for DMs? Ideas the designers were keeping in mind when changing the Realms (since Eberron was not changed)? It doesn't make sense. The people that don't use settings create their own worlds so they can create whatever they want. It looks like these changes will only effect the Realms.
18DELTA 01-16-08, 02:38 AM	It doesn't make sense. The people that don't use settings create their own worlds so they can create whatever they want. It looks like these changes will only effect the Realms. -Ding we have a winner!;) LORD DELTA:rolleyes:
Fingoldfin 01-16-08, 02:44 AM	You know, thats another one of those bizarro "do they even have a clue?" moments, when i was reading through that stuff. It sounds like they came up with lots of ideas... for a world they DON'T plan to make! I have my suspicians how thats all gonna pan-out, and I've voiced the bare-bones of them over on the designer thread. It appears that most of the 'adventures' will take place in these misty, new 'in-between' realms - like the Feywild, the Shadowfell, Abeir/Far Realms, the Elemental Tempest or whatever the heck they're calling it these days, etc, etc... That way, they can create a slew of modules (crappy ones that don't require any lore), and just insert them into these 'border areas'. Now they can 'appear' in anyone's world! Wallah! Instant, modular adventures, ready-to-go... just add water. Thats how they want it to play out, and the miniatures are being connected better to the rules, so that a DM can run the monsters right off the stat cards. Its all about the Phat Lewtz from now on. That would explain why the Spellplague is still active after 100 years. It gives them an excuse to say that all those ****** core adventures they produce can be plugged into the Realms anywhere. I never use adventure mods. I always hated them. Am I the only one? It seems like most people use modules when they game.
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 02:47 AM	I don't buy generic ones, only ones with FR lore, and even then I modify the hell out of them if I do use them. I heard the Spider-Queen one was so boring and repetetive that it was like having your teeth drilled to get through. :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 02:47 AM	-Here is the rub. On page 24 W/M "Matthew Sernett" Talks about how they wanted to make the realms the core world! They decided against it because HERE IT COMES 'They didnt want to alienate "some" of the fan base:ahem: All carried years of history, some of which "CONFLICTED" with how we(WotC) wanted to improve and CHANGE D&D's identity. :rolleyes: LORD DELTA:detect: -So...That's good, then. That way, they can create a slew of modules (crappy ones that don't require any lore), and just insert them into these 'border areas'. Now they can 'appear' in anyone's world! Wallah! Instant, modular adventures, ready-to-go... just add water. -Well, that's how a generic adventure should be. It should have enough self-contained information to support itself, and should be vague enough to be placed anywhere (My setting, your setting, Birthright, Forgotten Realms...:shifty:)
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 02:49 AM	-Can anyone elborate on these points? 7)Magic is not everyday, but its Natural. 8)Good and Evil mean more. 10)One Sun, One Moon. 12)Death matters Differently.
Fingoldfin 01-16-08, 02:50 AM	-Here is the rub. On page 24 W/M "Matthew Sernett" Talks about how they wanted to make the realms the core world! They decided against it because HERE IT COMES 'They didnt want to alienate "some" of the fan base:ahem: All carried years of history, some of which "CONFLICTED" with how we(WotC) wanted to improve and CHANGE D&D's identity. :rolleyes: LORD DELTA:detect: I think they successfully alienated "some" of the fan base. :rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 02:52 AM	Also, I really hate that evil can't fight evil anymore - you do realize thats taken directly from the miniatures game, with each side determined by weather they are good, Bad, or neutral? -Well, that's how a generic adventure should be. It should have enough self-contained information to support itself, and should be vague enough to be placed anywhere Right... but people were only buying and using the generic ones in the core (GH) setting, because they were core, get it? by not having an actual world that these 'things' go to, its much easier to say they are everywhere. A strange,mystical palace appearing at the edge of an enchanted forest... a forest that just so happens to be an extension of the feywild... See? A group from GH and a group from FR can meet-up in the Feywild border-area, and tackle the adventure togeter, and then go kick some Eberon butt while they are leaving. These semi-new transitive planes gives the designers an excuse to say that these adventure zones exist in all places at once. its actually pretty brilliant, if thats what they are attempting. To bad they'll f__k it up somehow. :rolleyes:
18DELTA 01-16-08, 03:12 AM	-Can anyone elborate on these points? -Magic is not Everyday, but it is Natural:"No one is superstitious about magic, but neither is the use of magic trivial. Practitioners of magic are as rare as classed fighters. Magic should never cross over into the silly or replicate modern conveniences.:rolleyes: They dont want "magitech". Sorry no arcane elevators, or a/c units for Elminster(I added that part). Yet they dont want the Medieval fear of magic that gets wizards burned at the stake.:embarrass -Good and Evil Mean More:Being aligned toward good means being a champion who actively fights for what is right. Being good is a defense against evil, never a vulnerability to evil. Like wise, evil is more than just bad thoughts. Most people are whats called "unaligned" You cant use magic to detect evil or good.;) Judge them by their actions. Demons are allways evil. -One Sun, One Moon:No unfamilar calenders and phenomena. -Death Matters Differently:Its harder to die in $E. When a heroic character dies, you role up a new character. When a paragon character dies, it can come back at significant cost?(Wonder what that means).Epic level characters death is a Speed Bump. Being raised from the dead is for heroes, and its more than just a spell and a $ transaction. -That help any?;) LORD DELTA:detect:
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 03:22 AM	One Sun, One Moon:No unfamilar calenders and phenomena. -That's all it says? That pretty...vague. By that reasoning, the Spellplague should not have happened. -That help any?;) LORD DELTA:detect: -It was, thank you. -You see, this is just puzzling me even more. The Realms, Eberron, and any other campaign settings that are going to be updated to 4th Edition already come with their own special caveats. Eberron, for example, defies the "Magic is not Everyday, but it is Natural." rule. The Realms defy the "One Sun, One Moon" rule. Who is all of this stuff for?
18DELTA 01-16-08, 03:29 AM	-That's all it says? That pretty...vague. By that reasoning, the Spellplague should not have happened. -It was, thank you. -You see, this is just puzzling me even more. The Realms, Eberron, and any other campaign settings that are going to be updated to 4th Edition already come with their own special caveats. Eberron, for example, defies the "Magic is not Everyday, but it is Natural." rule. The Realms defy the "One Sun, One Moon" rule. Who is all of this stuff for? -The world assumes what will be most easily accepted by players without imposing unfamilar calendars and phenomena. Thats what it says verbatim. -That is the 3 dollar question.:confused: LORD DELTA:tiphat:
BadCatMan 01-16-08, 03:30 AM	They seem to have put an awful lot of thought (well, at least, effort) into what was supposed to be a blank, generic, all-purpose world. What does this mean for homebrew and officially published CSes?
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 03:37 AM	-The world assumes what will be most easily accepted by players without imposing unfamilar calendars and phenomena. Thats what it says verbatim. :confused: -O...kay...
GreenKnight 01-16-08, 04:36 AM	They seem to have put an awful lot of thought (well, at least, effort) into what was supposed to be a blank, generic, all-purpose world. What does this mean for homebrew and officially published CSes? Why would it mean anything?
Alediran 01-16-08, 06:33 AM	Bah, every time they publish something it makes me like 4ed even less, when they release it only the pure, undiluted crunch will be useful to me.
BadCatMan 01-16-08, 06:40 AM	Why would it mean anything? They seem so set on what the shape of the generic core setting should be, even down to calenders and the number of suns and moons. Will this specific world-building philosophy be made solid in the rules? Will it be possible to design a very different world, or utilise an old one, and still use 4e rules?
GreenKnight 01-16-08, 06:46 AM	They seem so set on what the shape of the generic core setting should be, even down to calenders This is nothing new. The game has always assumed a 7-day week. Which is why per week abilities have always sucked a bit in the Realms, as it had 10-day weeks. But the Realms still managed to function, despite having weeks which were longer, and nothing stopped people making homebrew worlds from changing the number of days in a week in their world. and the number of suns and moons. Will this specific world-building philosophy be made solid in the rules? Will it be possible to design a very different world, or utilise an old one, and still use 4e rules? I don't see why not. Pelor, Hextor, and St. Cuthbert being listed as gods in the 3.5 PHB didn't preclude one from throwing them out and making up their own gods. As I've said several times, just because something is true in the core setting, it doesn't mean that it always must be true. For instance, just look at the Realms. Elves will have different lifespans in the Realms. They'll be called different names. Dragonborn will have a different culture. Tieflings will have different origins, and so on. And in all honesty, what rules could possibly be tied to the number of suns and moons in the sky?
Stigger 01-16-08, 06:46 AM	Those elaborations certainly didn't help my opinion of 4e... quite the opposite actually. Think I'm with Alediran on the crunch issue. <edit> I don't think the moon/sun issue is one of rules, but rather the fluffy stuff most of us love about the Realms. That could be seriously screwed by this whole philosophy.
GreenKnight 01-16-08, 06:54 AM	<edit> I don't think the moon/sun issue is one of rules, but rather the fluffy stuff most of us love about the Realms. That could be seriously screwed by this whole philosophy. Well, as I've pointed out, just because it's true in the core, it doesn't mean it's true in the Realms. I listed above several examples in which the Realms differs from Core. Besides, isn't Toril orbited by only one moon, anyway?
msatran 01-16-08, 06:55 AM	That is correct. Greyhawk has two.
Alkasyn 01-16-08, 06:55 AM	Those elaborations certainly didn't help my opinion of 4e... quite the opposite actually. Think I'm with Alediran on the crunch issue. <edit> I don't think the moon/sun issue is one of rules, but rather the fluffy stuff most of us love about the Realms. That could be seriously screwed by this whole philosophy. Propably they're making it more understandable to a casual customer, who can't be bothered to remember that that the week in the realms lasts 10 days and the months dont have different amount of days, etc etc. Just to make the setting easier to grasp.
Stigger 01-16-08, 07:16 AM	Depends on whether you count the Tears as micro-moons or not GK. ;) :D That's besides the point however, my point was that just because this stuff doesn't impact mechanics, it doesn't mean that its not going to impact the flavor. As to whether or not its going to impact the Realms, we have no idea one way or another, but given the radical changes thus far, I'm not willing to rule anything out with these design philosophies stomping all over previously established lore. While you're probably right about the calender issue Alkasyn, I'm not going to go into my thoughts on the Western calender system just now. Lets just say I'd really prefer to use the Faerunian calender here on Earth and leave it at that.
BadCatMan 01-16-08, 08:40 AM	I used the number of moons as example of the fine detail that WotC's going to in the CoreWorld. At least, going by what 18DELTA detailed. Why do they care so much if it was supposed to be a generic setting? Rules can impact on world-building. Such as the availability and prevalence of magic, or the random town generation tables - bound to tend towards the PoL model.
Mula 01-16-08, 10:31 AM	That way, they can create a slew of modules (crappy ones that don't require any lore), and just insert them into these 'border areas'. Now they can 'appear' in anyone's world! Wallah! Instant, modular adventures, ready-to-go... just add water. Oh noes! Easy to play adventurers... grr, all DMs should devote all their free time developing campaigns! -You see, this is just puzzling me even more. The Realms, Eberron, and any other campaign settings that are going to be updated to 4th Edition already come with their own special caveats. Eberron, for example, defies the "Magic is not Everyday, but it is Natural." rule. The Realms defy the "One Sun, One Moon" rule. Who is all of this stuff for? There are PLENTY of people who don't really want to bother with world building. Just get to the adventure! All this core stuff is for them. Just like in 3e.
Khaelieth 01-16-08, 11:03 AM	So, let me get this straight - the Blood War NEVER happened [In 4th edition]?
18DELTA 01-16-08, 11:11 AM	So, let me get this straight - the Blood War NEVER happened [In 4th edition]? -From what I have seen, YES the Blood War never happened [In 4th edition].:rolleyes: LORD DELTA:detect:
Mula 01-16-08, 11:12 AM	Most likely not. In 4e "core".
Alediran 01-16-08, 11:28 AM	Most likely not. In 4e "core". Demons and devils are going to be the same in every campaign, so there is no blood war for every setting.
Fingoldfin 01-16-08, 12:18 PM	So, let me get this straight - the Blood War NEVER happened [In 4th edition]? We don't know if this is true in the Realms yet, but it doesn't look good. I posted a question for Rich Baker about yugoloths and the Blood War. When he answers the question we will know. It looks like we're going to get another crappy retcon in addition to the Spellplague and the time jump. :mad:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-16-08, 01:54 PM	-Thats why we all love you!!!:D LORD DELTA:cloud9: Awww, shucks.:embarrass
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-16-08, 01:58 PM	-Its over!!!:eek: Point #14 on their "Key Conceits" pg 14 W/M less evil fighting evil in the "Core World". 30 Years of Lore dont matter anymore. WotC is making the Game theirs not a TSR castoff. What we know about the game is changing. Its still D&D, just a little different now(June I mean). I honestly don't see the point of this conceit. Still, it's nice to finally have an idea as to what the "primordials" are.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-16-08, 02:23 PM	-The world assumes what will be most easily accepted by players without imposing unfamilar calendars and phenomena. Thats what it says verbatim. I really wish they had elaborated on that.
18DELTA 01-16-08, 02:51 PM	I really wish they had elaborated on that. -Right!!! I spent most of my time reading and rereading the first 24 pages. I broused over the rest of the book. But the first 24 pages I found to be very revealing. I do not regret this purchase.:D They talk about how the Human empires are dead. Hence the Fantastic Empires in The Core World. The "Core World" is no longer controlled by humans. Every Race has its place. Made me think about "The Kingdom of Many arrows" "The Dragonborn Kingdom", how a lot of humans are at "Balders Gate". The fantastic locations: "Iron Fang Keep, The Wailing Dwarf, and the Cavern of Death" that have been coming out lately. Notice a pattern developing? Its all going by "The Key Conceits"!!! LORD DELTA:whatsthis
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 02:59 PM	There are PLENTY of people who don't really want to bother with world building. Just get to the adventure! All this core stuff is for them. Just like in 3e. -There is no Core World, however. This is why I find this so confusing. There is so much detail about what the generic world is supposed to be and what it is not supposed to be, and there is no generic world. -Right!!! I spent most of my time reading and rereading the first 24 pages. I broused over the rest of the book. -What kind of stuff does the rest of the book have?
18DELTA 01-16-08, 03:12 PM	-There is no Core World, however. This is why I find this so confusing. There is so much detail about what the generic world is supposed to be and what it is not supposed to be, and there is no generic world. -I think this is the bare bones of a setting that you the DM get to flesh out. So one doesn't need Eberron or The Realms. They said that the weren't going to detail it, thats is up to the DM.:D -What kind of stuff does the rest of the book have? -Its a bunch of fluff. "Fire Titan's" are the biggest version of "Fire Giants". "Storm Titan's" are the biggest version of "Storm Giant's". LORD DELTA:globe:
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 03:27 PM	-I think this is the bare bones of a setting that you the DM get to flesh out. So one doesn't need Eberron or The Realms. They said that the weren't going to detail it, thats is up to the DM.:D -If an individual is going to flesh out his/her own world, he/she doesn't need their, mine, or anybody's regulations. Now, if that sidebar, or whatever it is, was entitled "Tips For Building A Setting", it would all make sense to me. But, it's not, so it doesn't.
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 04:37 PM	First off, Rich never said there was NO Bloodwar - it has been 're-conceptualized' to be more over-reaching - and therefore even MORE diabolical - then what it was. The idea of a battlefield in some far-off plane really had no effect on our games. But a devil, working against a demon to establish a cult in Teflamm, could hire the PCs to help him. Talk about getting 'sucked in' to the conflict! So now, the war isn't being fought in Gehenna, but rather, in an infinite number of 'battlefields' throughout the known Spheres. How is that worse, for game purposes? You want the old-style Bloodwar? I'm sure their are hundreds of planes where the covert manipulations have broken into all-out war! Picture it - your characters travel through the Shadowfell to a ruined, post-apocalyptic Prime-material world, where devils have enslaved Dwarves and Elves, and humans have just become a hunted food-source for the rampaging demons. Imagine a world like THAT, where people would have to make infernal pacts with Baatezu just to keep from becoming some Tanarri's dinner. That, my friends, is a much more provocative picture of the Bloodwar then the one we used to have. ;)
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 04:47 PM	That, my friends, is a much more provocative picture of the Bloodwar then the one we used to have. ;) -It, however, is not The Bloodwar.
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 05:08 PM	But, its just one example of the Bloodwar. On an infinite number of planes, who's to say everyone's version isn't the correct one? Planescape Lore was wonderful, and added much to the D&D experience... but lets face it, its now two editions old. Its not like they got rid of the Bloodwar - they changed the way people perceive it. I'm telling you, if you examine things closely, you'll realize they changed VERY little - they basically just renamed a bunch of stuff so they would appear more creative. They also destroyed a lot, I must admit, but entropy happens - its the way of the universe - I'm just glad that they didn't actually attempt to 'create' anything. Thats what I was really afraid of... :rolleyes:
GreenKnight 01-16-08, 05:20 PM	But, its just one example of the Bloodwar. On an infinite number of planes, who's to say everyone's version isn't the correct one? Yeah, if the Blood War still exists, then it's probably being fought across the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos, maybe spilling over to the Feywild or Shadowfell on occasion, along with the prime material. They also destroyed a lot, I must admit, but entropy happens - its the way of the universe Doomguard for the win!
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 05:24 PM	-The Athar would kick their asses.
GreenKnight 01-16-08, 05:25 PM	Like I care. :P Fated all the way, for me. :)
johnkretzer 01-16-08, 05:25 PM	But, its just one example of the Bloodwar. On an infinite number of planes, who's to say everyone's version isn't the correct one? Planescape Lore was wonderful, and addded much to the D&D experience... but lets face it, its now two editions old. Its not like they got rid of the Bloodwar - they changed the way people perceive it. I'm telling you, if you examine things closely, you'll realize they changed VERY little - they basically just renamed a bunch of stuff so they would appear more creative. They also destroyed a lot, I must admit, but entropy happens - its the way of the universe - I'm just glad that they didn't actually attempt to 'create' anything. Thats what I was really afraid of... :rolleyes: I know you know the truth of the blood war...so why continue with that misconception that I really don't think was very wide spread? Personaly I think the majority of the misconception they are claiming that the fans have are just ones that they themselves have. They also said that they are lessen having evil fighting evil...so no more monsterbation( a term I first heard at a LARP I used to play). I hated the fact they the LARP went against sense and disallowed NPCs from fighting each other...as I am sadden to see that kind of depth removed from the game. Also it brings up something...are evil PCs(I mean straight out evil PCs not unaligned PCs dabbling in evil 'power souces') are going to be even allowed by RAW?
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 05:29 PM	-The Athar would kick everyone's asses.
GreenKnight 01-16-08, 05:30 PM	Also it brings up something...are evil PCs(I mean straight out evil PCs not unaligned PCs dabbling in evil 'power souces') are going to be even allowed by RAW? I had a lot of people approach me with 4E questions. One of the most memorable ones was, "Will 4E have paladins that aren't lawful good?" The answer is yes. Hell, you can have evil paladins of Asmodeus in 4E. More on that later. Make of that what you will.
johnkretzer 01-16-08, 05:31 PM	Like I care. :P Fated all the way, for me. :) Bah while you guys are thinking and debating the Ciphers will win...(besides the possed the best limition in 2nd edition I ever saw)
johnkretzer 01-16-08, 05:32 PM	Make of that what you will. True..I forgot wqhat they were doing to paladins...though nothing there says you could play a evil paladin...just that they will exist.
GreenKnight 01-16-08, 05:32 PM	-The Athar would kick everyone's asses. Pfft. Good luck kicking anyone's ass without Cleric magic to keep you going. :P
GreenKnight 01-16-08, 05:34 PM	True..I forgot wqhat they were doing to paladins...though nothing there says you could play a evil paladin...just that they will exist. There's nothing to say you can't. And what's the point of saying "you can have evil Paladins of Asmodeus" if you can't play one? Whatever the case, at the moment, there is no indication to say that you can't play an evil character.
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 05:36 PM	I think that they are trying to 'marry' the Miniatures game better to the RPG - using a single of set of stats to play both. Its not a bad idea, because younger kids would prefer to just 'do battles' with 'their guys', and then as they mature they would want to know more about the 'Advanced game'. They may be using new terminolgy, but it reaks of OD&D to me. Now, with that in mind, in the Mini rules evil CAN'T fight evil - they're on the same side. Personally, I think this is a HORRIBLE concept - it reminds me of every MORPG I've played. I want to know why, if I'm fighting an evil rogue/whatever, and we are in the woods, the bear ONLY ATTACKS ME?! I HATED that about WoW - you'd have to watch out when you were in a fight, because if you agroed any of the local fauna, it would help 'the bad guy'. Now, if a group of evil beings were ruining the local forest, why the hell are the animals all on their side?! :ahem: I hope D&D doesn't turn into THAT! I'm just wondering how they are going to manage this, with characters of different alignments on the same side, when the minis don't allow it. Obviously because of the stuff we know about Paladins, all alignments will be available to PCs, but will they be able to work together? Maybe that is one of the differences they are planning between the 'Basic' (Miniatures) rules, and the 'Advanced' (D&D). Doomguard for the win!I've always been a Doomgaurd man at heart, LONG before Planescape came around. ;)
johnkretzer 01-16-08, 05:42 PM	Now, with that in mind, in the Mini rules evil CAN'T fight evil - they're on the same side. Are you serious? How Dumb is that? I mean that is like saying a Blue MtG deck can't play against a Blue MtG deck. Are you sure about that rule for the mini game? I have friends who play...either they ignore it or don't know about it.
johnkretzer 01-16-08, 05:43 PM	There's nothing to say you can't. And what's the point of saying "you can have evil Paladins of Asmodeus" if you can't play one? Whatever the case, at the moment, there is no indication to say that you can't play an evil character. Agreed...though who in the FR do you fight?
GreenKnight 01-16-08, 05:46 PM	I don't play evil, but if I did, I imagine I'd be duking it out with Harpers, Purple Dragons, Dalelands Militia, etc. And of course, Cult of the Dragon, Zhentarim, Red Wizards, and run-of-the-mill monsters are still options. Although if I were to play evil, I'd probably try to join the Zhentarim. BTW: According to the just released new D&D Miniature Rulebook, there are four factions. Those factions are... Borderlands Civilization Underdark The WildThey also have alignment, and good creatures can't be included in warbands with evil creatures and vice versa. So you could have a Civilization Warband with good and unaligned models, or evil and unaligned models. Also, there're numerous creatures that belong to more then one faction. I haven't read through the whole thing, but so far I don't see anything about two warbands from the same faction not being able to fight each other. So looks like you can have one Borderlands Warband fight another Borderlands Warband.
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 05:48 PM	Pfft. Good luck kicking anyone's ass without Cleric magic to keep you going. :P -Relying on those hacks stifles progression. If anyone's harnessed the ability to turn Arcane magic into Healing magic (a la Simbul's Synestodweomer [Sp?]), it would be the Athar- perhaps the Believers of the Source as well.
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 06:07 PM	I might be wrong there - I only played with the miniature rules one time. basically, the factions were divided up along Good, Evil, and Neutral, and only Neutral could 'side' with the others. It was assumed that everyone from a single 'grouping' were on the same side - I suppose you could have a battle between two groups of the same alignment, but the game really isn't set up' to be played that way. Its very 'us' and 'them' oriented, with very little in the way of grey area. When I heard about evil not fighting evil in the new 4th edition rules, it made me think of that. I'm not sure how much either of those things will be true in 4e, so at this point that was all conjecture on my part. Still, playing off the Zhents against the Red Wizards was a big part of my campaign, so I don't see how they can just remove that from the game. It would be entirely unrealistic for evil to get along with other evil - thats why Good always triumphs; because of their unity. If you gave this to the 'bad guys', they would stomp all over the good ones. Can you imagine the Drow all united and of a single mind? :eek:
johnkretzer 01-16-08, 06:14 PM	I might be wrong there - I only played with the miniature rules one time. basically, the factions were divided up along Good, Evil, and Neutral, and only Neutral could 'side' with the others. It was assumed that everyone from a single 'grouping' were on the same side - I suppose you could have a battle between two groups of the same alignment, but the game really isn't set up' to be played that way. Its very 'us' and 'them' oriented, with very little in the way of grey area. When I heard about evil not fighting evil in the new 4th edition rules, it made me think of that. I'm not sure how much either of those things will be true in 4e, so at this point that was all conjecture on my part. Still, playing off the Zhents against the Red Wizards was a big part of my campaign, so I don't see how they can just remove that from the game. It would be entirely unrealistic for evil to get along with other evil - thats why Good always triumphs; because of their unity. If you gave this to the 'bad guys', they would stomp all over the good ones. Can you imagine the Drow all united and of a single mind? :eek: Or it is just as fun for evil forces to manipulate good to fight good...or have two good ideals at war...sigh
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 06:21 PM	-Why is the Miniatures game so hung up on 'factions'?
GreenKnight 01-16-08, 06:23 PM	I might be wrong there - I only played with the miniature rules one time. basically, the factions were divided up along Good, Evil, and Neutral, and only Neutral could 'side' with the others. Maybe they changed it later, but in the original version of the game, you had four factions. Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil, and Chaotic Evil. And nothing I saw in the rules said you couldn't have LG warbands fight LG warbands, or CE warbands fight CE warbands. It was assumed that everyone from a single 'grouping' were on the same side - I suppose you could have a battle between two groups of the same alignment, but the game really isn't set up' to be played that way. I never saw any reason why that wouldn't make for a viable game (Well, aside from possibly confusing your miniatures for your enemies). Its very 'us' and 'them' oriented, with very little in the way of grey area. When I heard about evil not fighting evil in the new 4th edition rules, it made me think of that. No evil vs. evil in 4E? Got a source for this? I'm not sure how much either of those things will be true in 4e, so at this point that was all conjecture on my part. Still, playing off the Zhents against the Red Wizards was a big part of my campaign, so I don't see how they can just remove that from the game. It would be entirely unrealistic for evil to get along with other evil - thats why Good always triumphs; because of their unity. If you gave this to the 'bad guys', they would stomp all over the good ones. Can you imagine the Drow all united and of a single mind? :eek: Well, in the D&D Miniatures game at least with the new game rules they've just put out, I have yet to see anything to stop evil from fighting evil, or hell, to keep good from fighting good.
johnkretzer 01-16-08, 06:50 PM	No evil vs. evil in 4E? Got a source for this? No evil vs evil in 4th edition is wrong. It is going to be lessened though and minmalized. Though I'll admitt that is in part hearsay from R.Baker...or was Delta's reading the new preview book...or was it both...
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 07:16 PM	It was in the preview book. Anyway, I think I only played with the Star Wars miniatures, and I assumed the rules were the same. No alignments in Star Wars - just the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly (;)). In SW, Empire troops would NOT fight Empire troops, and Rebels would not fight Rebels. Netruals (like bounty hunters and criminals) could go either way, or could be made up into a third faction, if neccessary. Like I said, nothing would stop you from having Luke against Han Solo, but it would take from the flavor of the game. From what I've read of the new miniatures rules, the entire design concept was that creatures of like alignment would 'team-up', even if they were from completely different settings. Thats where the idea of these 'alignment groups' comes in LK. I'm just seeing a little of this spilling over into D&D in general, since the setting appears to be getting more multi-spheric once again. Until we actually have the rules in our hands, though, everything is pure conjecture.
GreenKnight 01-16-08, 07:22 PM	Ah. Yeah, Star Wars would be different. I always thought it was neat, though, building a Lawful Good Warband and using it to beat up on some Chaotic Good deadbeats living in the woods. Highly satisfying. :D I like the new factions, though. I especially like how they're essentially eight factions, with good and evil dividing each. Can't wait to try out the new iteration of DDM when it comes out.
Fingoldfin 01-16-08, 07:24 PM	Did anyone check the rule book for the newest miniature set? It could've changed.
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 07:30 PM	-Star Wars, that makes sense. D&D, not so much, anyway.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-16-08, 07:41 PM	-Right!!! I spent most of my time reading and rereading the first 24 pages. I broused over the rest of the book. But the first 24 pages I found to be very revealing. I do not regret this purchase.:D They talk about how the Human empires are dead. Hence the Fantastic Empires in The Core World. The "Core World" is no longer controlled by humans. Every Race has its place. Made me think about "The Kingdom of Many arrows" "The Dragonborn Kingdom", how a lot of humans are at "Balders Gate". The fantastic locations: "Iron Fang Keep, The Wailing Dwarf, and the Cavern of Death" that have been coming out lately. Notice a pattern developing? Its all going by "The Key Conceits"!!! You could very well be correct about that. Anyway, I just picked this book up! I'll have to flip through it later.:)
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 07:47 PM	"The Key Conceits. eh? sounds apt. :bored:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-16-08, 07:54 PM	Now, with that in mind, in the Mini rules evil CAN'T fight evil - they're on the same side. Personally, I think this is a HORRIBLE concept - it reminds me of every MORPG I've played. I want to know why, if I'm fighting an evil rogue/whatever, and we are in the woods, the bear ONLY ATTACKS ME?! I HATED that about WoW - you'd have to watch out when you were in a fight, because if you agroed any of the local fauna, it would help 'the bad guy'. Now, if a group of evil beings were ruining the local forest, why the hell are the animals all on their side?! :ahem: I hope D&D doesn't turn into THAT! I always thought it was dumb how animals in a lot of games will attack the PC at all, because most animals would just run away (not all, but most). I'm also not in agreement with evil not fighting evil. Is evil now supposed to be monolithic?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-16-08, 07:57 PM	"The Key Conceits. eh? sounds apt. :bored: HA! I didn't think they meant "conceit" in the pejorative sense, but...you're right, that's funny. :heehee
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 08:09 PM	"The Key Conceits. eh? sounds apt. :bored: -I was wondering about that, if it was a mispelling by Delta or whatever, too...
Khaelieth 01-17-08, 08:22 AM	I always thought it was dumb how animals in a lot of games will attack the PC at all, because most animals would just run away (not all, but most). I'm also not in agreement with evil not fighting evil. Is evil now supposed to be monolithic? If the demons and devils stop arguing, the Realms is doomed! Doomed, I say!
18DELTA 01-17-08, 10:47 AM	"The Key Conceits. eh? sounds apt. :bored: -Yes "The Key Conceits". Point #14 on pg 14 says:"Less Evil fighting Evil""Too much in previous editions deals with evil fighting itself: Demon lords and Archdevils War on each other 'rather than threathening the PCs'. We dont want to waste space on things players cant use.:rolleyes: Make sure conflicts are important and useful to making the game fun. -So where does the blood war fit in what I just posted? Also the devils are now trapped in the nine hells!!! The only way they can leave is through somebody summoning them OUT!!!;) -The demons are at war with all of creation now. The universe has the Elemental Chaos at the bottom, the core world in the middle, and the astral sea on top. So if the blood war was still going, it would be on the core world now. At the beginning the primordials were in the elemental tempest. The gods were in the astral sea. A god(now know as the elder elemental eye) found a shard of pure evil that currupted him, he took it to the elemental tempest. Cast it in to the elemental tempest which currupted a portion of it. Now know as the abyss. Some of the primordials were changed to become ORCUS, GRAZZT, DEMOGORGON, ECT. get the picture. Would have posted last night, had tech problems here in the Feywild(stupid Verizon crew working at 12 midnight)!!! PS The book doesnt have one(1) single mention of the Blood War in it!!! LORD DELTA:detect:
Alediran 01-17-08, 10:57 AM	The elder elemental eye sounds like Ghaunadaur or Tharzidun.
18DELTA 01-17-08, 11:08 AM	The elder elemental eye sounds like Ghaunadaur or Tharzidun. -I would say Tharzidun myself. The book also talks about iconic D&D locations. The Temple of Elemental Evil will be in the Core World among others. -The Dominions of Dead Gods in the Astral Sea are now the Dungeons of the planes, for epic tier PC's.:lightbulb :plotting: :evillaugh :w00t: :dancin: :love: :devil: :cloud9: LORD DELTA:thinks: :smirk:
18DELTA 01-17-08, 11:57 AM	-There is also this Worlds and Monsters (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4spot/20080117a) article on the main site. This month, Wizards of the Coast takes a behind-the-scenes look at the making of 4th Edition, revealing the philosophies, insights and decisions that helped shape the development of the game. We speak with Jennifer Clarke Wilkes, compiler and editor of Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters, about what we can expect to learn from this 4th Edition preview! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wizards of the Coast: We asked a similar question regarding Races and Classes—with 4th Edition releasing this summer, what does Worlds and Monsters offer me as a gamer? Why would I want to pick up a copy? Jennifer Clarke Wilkes: This book offers a first look at the revised cosmology of 4th Edition D&D, with details about the concept and design of the various planes, and gorgeous art depicting their natures. It also provides lots of designer insight into re-concepting encounters and monster roles in combat, as well as some preview art for iconic creatures. Wizards of the Coast: D&D Insider currently runs its Design & Development column, which takes an inside look at the new edition—what sorts of secrets and insights does Worlds and Monsters also look to provide? What information about the game was R&D looking to convey? Jennifer Clarke Wilkes: This book is largely devoted to designer thinking about the “key conceits” of 4th Edition as they relate to adventuring and building encounters. Such ideas are part of the Races and Classes book as well: The world is ancient, mysterious and dangerous; gameplay should be fun and challenging; mechanics and assumptions that interfere with play should be replaced or removed in favor of material that encourages creativity and exploration. Wizards of the Coast: One chapter in the book is titled What “World” Meant to the World Team”; can you tell us a little of what the book has to say on this matter? When players start playing their new 4th Edition campaigns, what will their world be like? “Points of light” has been introduced as a concept, but what does this mean for the 4E character just starting out? Jennifer Clarke Wilkes: What “world” does not mean is a default “core” setting, such as Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms or Eberron. Rather, it refers to the environment of play in the D&D game, the set of shared assumptions held by players and DMs. A number of legends (such as the ancient dragonborn empire) and notorious locales (such as the Temple of Elemental Evil) form part of this shared consciousness, but their place in a given campaign is entirely up to that group. The player characters are surrounded by a wide, mysterious world that is itself only one of several unlimited realms, each with a distinctive feel and unique opportunities and threats. The DM decides which, if any, of the legendary details apply to his or her game, and how they relate to one another. Wizards of the Coast: Beyond the known (physical? material?) world of us mere mortals, what tidbits does the book have to say about other realms where adventures will likely take place? What can you tell us about, say, the Feywild? The Shadowfell? Or the Elemental Chaos? Jennifer Clarke Wilkes: Five planar realms are known to exist, with another mysterious region hinted at in dark whispers. The known planes are: the world (what used to be called the Material Plane); two reflections of the world, the grim and dangerous Shadowfell, and the magical but equally dangerous Feywild; the Elemental Chaos (including the Abyss, home of demons) below; and above, the shining Astral Sea, home of the gods’ Dominions. Scholars of the arcane and bizarre hold that a strange, extraplanar space called the Far Realm also exists, home to weird and incomprehensible horrors. Wizards of the Coast: What role will the Far Realm will play in the game? Does mean we’ll still be seeing plenty of aberrations: beholders, mind flayers, aboleths and the like? (And on a related minor note, did you receive a “Snowball” as a holiday treat?) Jennifer Clarke Wilkes: The new setting certainly links aberrations more thematically. An aberration isn’t just something that looks weird and tentacly (although most do), but is born of or linked to the madness beyond, what some mortals call the Far Realm. Some of them have a purpose, beyond the ken of ordinary beings, but many are the result of “leakage” from that strange world into neighboring reality. And yes, Snowball resides with honor on my living room mantel. It’s frosterrific! Wizards of the Coast: As we move a bit more from the worlds to the monsters, what could be a more iconic monster to the game than the dragons—what insights might the book have to offer on these legendary creatures? For instance, I hear that metallics aren’t quite the same dragons anymore? Jennifer Clarke Wilkes: The designers spent a lot of time with dragons, as you might imagine. For decades, dragons have had traditional features, some of which actually interfered with using them as adversaries. The game is called Dungeons & Dragons, yet dragon encounters can be intimidating to a DM. With a dozen age categories, a multitude of special abilities in addition to the iconic dragon breath, as well as the “build-by-numbers” style of the 3rd Edition dragons, an interesting dragon opponent can take many hours to prepare and present an overwhelming number of choices. In addition, as powerful as a dragon might be, it is a single opponent that takes one set of actions against a well-armed party with four or more sets of actions every round. Against such odds, it can’t present a real challenge unless it significantly outclasses the PCs—at which point, the encounter risks becoming a TPK. In 4th Edition D&D, dragons have been redesigned as satisfying solo opponents. They can do things to interfere with PCs’ actions, take extra actions on their own turns, and stand up to the pounding of a group of opponents—essentially behaving as a group of monsters. Each dragon has an iconic suite of powers that is no longer diluted by additional details such as minor spell-like abilities or arcane spellcaster levels. We’ve simplified the age categories, eliminating those at the younger end and consolidating others, so that good dragon challenges exist at each adventuring tier. Metallic dragons have traditionally been good-aligned. While flavorful and important to the “ecology” of dragons, the practical effect was to remove half of the available dragons in the Monster Manual as opponents. How often do PCs go up against good creatures? In 4th Edition dragons are more, well, dragonish. They are all ferocious and greedy creatures, with chromatic and metallic dragons distinguished more by personality than alignment. While chromatics tend to be destructive and cruel, metallics focus more on control and power. These differences are reinforced by the dragon’s special powers. The varieties of metallic dragon have undergone a revision as well, with some less well-defined kinds giving way to new ones with distinctive natures. Wizards of the Coast: Other notable categories of monsters would have to be demons and devils. There are hints of changes taking place with these fellows as well—what does the book have to share about the shakeups to the Abyss and the Nine Hells, and their respective denizens? Jennifer Clarke Wilkes: Previous editions of the game created demons and devils with parallel roles, differing only in alignment and minor abilities. Thus, you had the demon succubus and the devil erinyes, the demon balor and the devil pit fiend. In 3rd Edition, demons and devils had different suites of resistances and immunities, but these didn’t distinguish them enough. The Fiendish Codex series did a lot to further distinguish the two: demons as agents of chaos and destruction, and devils as tempters and plotters. With 4th Edition, the two have been set apart: demons kill, devils subvert. Demons are native to the Abyss, a corrupted region of the Elemental Chaos. They are elemental beings that embody chaos and ruin above all, and they are monstrous in appearance. These are the brutes and skirmishers of combat encounters. Devils, on the other hand, are beings of the Astral Dominions. They control realms and are well-organized, tactical masters, the soldiers and controllers of combat. As a result, a few former demons and devils switched sides to better align with their combat roles. The succubus, for example, uses deceit and temptation to further its ends, and is thus much better suited as a devil than a demon. Wizards of the Coast: Let’s talk about D&D and 4th Edition in general. When did you find out that a new edition would be in the works, and what were your first impressions of the idea? Jennifer Clarke Wilkes: I learned that we were starting design on a new edition in mid-2005, which is when the first design documents started to be written. I believed that the game did need to be overhauled but wasn’t so sure what the timeframe should be. We did an early playtest that summer. That first playtest was memorable for how much it didn’t feel like D&D—in my opinion, of course. It’s changed a lot since then, but that early game was fast and furious, with lots of options in combat. The best of those features have been retained in the final version, while keeping the game recognizably D&D. Wizards of the Coast: And finally, have you encountered any of the 4th Edition creatures firsthand while playtesting the game—and how have you found them in comparison with their predecessors? Jennifer Clarke Wilkes: I’ve been running playtests with my own gaming group as well as lots of testing at the office. I find that having distinct roles in combat makes building encounters much simpler for a novice DM like me, and it’s easier to run creatures that have a few solid powers that complement their theme. I’ve run a dragon encounter and found it to be very challenging to the players but not overwhelming for the DM. I think the monster that impressed me the most as a player in the new edition is the purple worm. That is one scary encounter! LORD DELTA:)
Lord Karsus 01-17-08, 12:11 PM	-Finally, a half-answer as to what the "world" is: "Rather, it refers to the environment of play in the D&D game, the set of shared assumptions held by players and DMs."
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-17-08, 12:22 PM	I skimmed the book a bit last night. Of course, there was beautiful artwork, and while I want to withold my opinion on most of what they are doing for now (after all, I haven't really read it yet), I did find myself agreeing with many of the 4E design principles, although at the same time I thought to myself, "older editions could have had that, too". I appreciated the bit about not making fantasy worlds and locations analogues of the real world...but that's what I've been saying about the Realms setting for a long time (along with plenty of other people!). I found myself agreeing with James Wyatt when he said to get rid of compulsory symmetry (a principle that I, once again, always agreed with, although I *DID* enjoy the Great Wheel cosmology). I also think the 4E design team is right when they say the 3E books didn't emphasize the fantastic locations as much as they could have (3E artwork featured a lot of adventurer glamor shots, but not as many landscapes and scenery as I would liked), or even the fantasy elements that attract people to the game in the first place (ie. the example about the PHB emphasizing ordinary animals over more fantastic ones--W&M mentioned buying horses and mules but not griffons; I thought of how wizards and sorcerers needed a special feat if they wanted a familiar that wasn't an ordinary, real world small animal). Just my two cents. Again, I'm not saying I agree with EVERYTHING in W&M, but I think the designers make some good points.
18DELTA 01-17-08, 12:29 PM	I skimmed the book a bit last night. Of course, there was beautiful artwork, and while I want to withold my opinion on most of what they are doing for now (after all, I haven't really read it yet), I did find myself agreeing with many of the 4E design principles, although at the same time I thought to myself, "older editions could have had that, too". I appreciated the bit about not making fantasy worlds and locations analogues of the real world...but that's what I've been saying about the Realms setting for a long time (along with plenty of other people!). I found myself agreeing with James Wyatt when he said to get rid of compulsory symmetry (a principle that I, once again, always agreed with, although I *DID* enjoy the Great Wheel cosmology). I also think the 4E design team is right when they say the 3E books didn't emphasize the fantastic locations as much as they could have (3E artwork featured a lot of adventurer glamor shots, but not as many landscapes and scenery as I would liked), or even the fantasy elements that attract people to the game in the first place (ie. the example about the PHB emphasizing ordinary animals over more fantastic ones--W&M mentioned buying horses and mules by not griffons; I thought of how wizards and sorcerers needed a special feat if they wanted a familiar that wasn't an ordinary, real world small animal). Just my two cents. Again, I'm not saying I agree with EVERYTHING in W&M, but I think the designers make some good points. -Its good to have another opinion of the book. Thank you. Glad there is another perspective.:D LORD DELTA:clap:
MarkusTay63 01-17-08, 12:52 PM	The elder elemental eye sounds like Ghaunadaur or Tharzidun.Sounds like a certain 'Dark Lord' I know - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Eye_Sauron.jpg And just because I find it interesting, a recent shot from the Hubble telescope - http://space.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/dn7564/dn7564-1_400.jpg At least its not the Mars Face again, but it is kinda scarey; thats a Solar System forming.
18DELTA 01-17-08, 12:56 PM	Sounds like a certain 'Dark Lord' I know - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Eye_Sauron.jpg And just because I find it interesting, a recent shot from the Hubble telescope - http://space.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/dn7564/dn7564-1_400.jpg At least its not the Mars Face again, but it is kinda scarey; thats a Solar System forming. -Is that the "Richard Baker must be stopped" Solar System forming?:eek: :confused: :rofl: LORD DELTA:heehee
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-17-08, 12:58 PM	-Its good to have another opinion of the book. Thank you. Glad there is another perspective.:D LORD DELTA:clap: You're welcome.:) It's an enjoyable book, and I can recommend it. As I said, it's nice to be able to flip through it at will.
GreenKnight 01-17-08, 01:00 PM	W&M mentioned buying horses and mules but not griffons Sweet. That's something I've always wanted, which is why I've always been a big fan of the Paladin Special Mount ability, as it gave me the chance to get the more unusual mounts (Pegasi, Dire Lions, etc). Nice to know that they'll make it easier for people who want more unusual mounts. Dare I hope to dream that a party of Paragon or Epic level PC's will look something like this? http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/233373/227075707.jpghttp://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/233373/227075405.jpghttp://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/233373/227075506.jpg http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/233373/227075608.jpg
18DELTA 01-17-08, 01:05 PM	You're welcome.:) It's an enjoyable book, and I can recommend it. As I said, it's nice to be able to flip through it at will. -Smart and Beautiful!!!;) :D LORD DELTA:bow:
MarkusTay63 01-17-08, 01:05 PM	I have a WH Wood Elf army myself - Eagle Riders FTW! :dancin:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-17-08, 01:07 PM	Sweet. That's something I've always wanted, which is why I've always been a big fan of the Paladin Special Mount ability, as it gave me the chance to get the more unusual mounts (Pegasi, Dire Lions, etc). Nice to know that they'll make it easier for people who want more unusual mounts. I totally agree. Just as I'm excited about (hopefully) not having to "pay extra" for a more fantastic familiar. As a cat lover I love cat familiars, but I also like pixie familiars, small dragon familiars, elemental familiars... I always did appreciate how NWN allowed "magical" familiars without making the PC jump through extra hoops for it. The magical elements are what people are playing the game for!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-17-08, 01:08 PM	-Smart and Beautiful!!!;) :D LORD DELTA:bow: Oh, shucks. Again.:embarrass
GreenKnight 01-17-08, 01:09 PM	I have a WH Wood Elf army myself - Eagle Riders FTW! :dancin: I used to have a Bretonnian army, and I've been meaning to collect a new one. Warhawk Riders and the like are nice, but Pegasus Knights are 15 different flavors of bad-ass. http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/233373/227075904.jpg
GreenKnight 01-17-08, 01:15 PM	I totally agree. Just as I'm excited about (hopefully) not having to "pay extra" for a more fantastic familiar. As a cat lover I love cat familiars, but I also like pixie familiars, small dragon familiars, elemental familiars... I always did appreciate how NWN allowed "magical" familiars without making the PC jump through extra hoops for it. The magical elements are what people are playing the game for! Completely agree. I always liked seeing that sort of thing. From a Unicorn Mount to a Pseudodragon Familiar. They always added an extra touch of the fantastical to a setting which is supposed to be fantastical. The creatures already exist, so it shouldn't be all that hard to better account for them filling those roles. Glad they finally figured it out. I can't wait to see them appear in the PHB.
Alediran 01-17-08, 01:31 PM	Completely agree. I always liked seeing that sort of thing. From a Unicorn Mount to a Pseudodragon Familiar. They always added an extra touch of the fantastical to a setting which is supposed to be fantastical. The creatures already exist, so it shouldn't be all that hard to better account for them filling those roles. Glad they finally figured it out. I can't wait to see them appear in the PHB. That's why I already ignore the rules for most of those things. Alediran has a Small Air Elemental as familiar without having the Improved Familiar feat.
18DELTA 01-17-08, 01:32 PM	-That would be so kewl to have a Fat Cat Familiar purring in you lap while riding a griffon mount!!!;) :D PURRRRR...MEOW...PURRRRR!!!:cool: LORD DELTA:cloud9:
MarkusTay63 01-17-08, 01:47 PM	You really think you are going to have the cat lying quietly in your lap, while you soar through the air? :uh-huh: Unless its a Tressym, your not going to have a whole lot of flesh left when you land. :rolleyes: That's why I already ignore the rules for most of those things. Alediran has a Small Air Elemental as familiar without having the Improved Familiar feat.I tried awhile ago to come up with a unified set of rules to describe all of the PC animals under one 'umbrella heading', called 'Special Animals'. It would have included Wizards and Sorcerors familiars, Druid and ranger Companions, and the Paladins Horse (plus dozens of other specicfic cases). Basically you would take the special Animal Feat, and it would entitle you to a creature that appeared to be a normal animal, but in reality was a seperate 'entity' linked to the character. originally, I figured these entities were like 'humonculi' - basically low-lev outsiders that would attune themselves to the characters alignment and needs. However, after reading some of the back-story for the movie The Golden Compass, I like their idea MUCH better. Basically, the animal is actually a small piece of your soul that detaches itself and remains with you, but is a seperate sentient creature in its own right. This builds-in the connection D&D mages have with their familiars, and losing one would be losing a small piece of your soul (that why you really can't create too many). As a charatcer levels, then so too would his 'Special Animal', either getting physically stronger, or mentally, depending on the creatures type and size. Also, as the creature gets more powerful, it becomes more of its own 'person', and will develop a secondary form depending on its alignment (this is where you get your Imps, Quazits, Mephits, Cherrubs, Psudodragons, etc..). The creature actually evolves into these stronger types, gaining new abilities in the proces. That means if you don't treat your familiar or companion well, it could break it ties with you, leaving you weakened for awhile. As I started trying to work out all the particulars, I realized it was much easier just using all the seperate systems in the books. Maube someday i'll finish all that, but it seemed like a lot of work, forsuch a minor point in the game.
18DELTA 01-17-08, 02:02 PM	You really think you are going to have the cat lying quietly in your lap, while you soar through the air? :uh-huh: Unless its a Tressym, your not going to have a whole lot of flesh left when you land. :rolleyes: -Uh...what part of Familiar do you not understand. Plus you gotz to know how to pet the pussycat.;) :D -One must know how to make the Kitty Cat purrrrrrrr!!!! :teach: :) LORD DELTA:dancin:
elondir 01-17-08, 02:54 PM	If you read that Enworld thread, you don't need the preview... unless you are one of those people who need to own a copy of everything. ;) Funny, but when I first began playing in 1e, and bought the Monster Manual, I didn't like either of those - the rest of the Dragons were 'pure' metals, whereas those were really 'Alloy Dragons'. So, thirty some-odd years later, the designers agree with me. :D They should have come to me sooner... :rolleyes: Anyway, the Iron Dragon makes sense (there was actually a game and a novel with that name), But I would have preferred a Mithril Dragon over an Adamantine. Ah, well.... Giants with abilities that tie them to the Elements? It appears some of these designers have really gone back to the drawing board, and are making 4e monsters much closer to their folk-lore counterparts. This is SO how I've been envisioning D&D working for years! I just wish they didn't feel the need to 'Nuke' FR on the way... :( Iron, mithril, tin (all from Dragon magazine), mercury (Spelljammer Practical Planetology), and adamantine (MC8 Outer Planes Appendix) dragons have been around at least since 2nd edition, so they're not new monsters. They have just not been MM1 "True Dragon" monsters in the past. Okay, from everything I've read, 4e is just plain NOT DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. D&D stopped being D&D in 2003. Castles and Crusades and Hackmaster are closer to D&D than 4e is. At least they're making adventures more generic again, like the B-modules were in the late 70's, before "X1 Isle of Dread" was released with the map. But I think I'd rather just make up my own game rather than play 4e at this point.
johnkretzer 01-17-08, 05:23 PM	I always did appreciate how NWN allowed "magical" familiars without making the PC jump through extra hoops for it. The magical elements are what people are playing the game for! So a cat that you can have a conversation with isn't magical? Traditional familars are enhanced normal animals. I don't like inteligent creature forced into that role of slavery.(Well atleast for good characters). But to each they're own.
Charles Phipps 01-18-08, 02:12 AM	I don't like inteligent creature forced into that role of slavery.(Well atleast for good characters) Let's see, Cat gets to live as long as a human being. He gets intelligence and a master that has to care for him or die. Yes, assuming it's not a willing summoning, it's not exactly a bad deal.
johnkretzer 01-18-08, 02:46 AM	Let's see, Cat gets to live as long as a human being. He gets intelligence and a master that has to care for him or die. Yes, assuming it's not a willing summoning, it's not exactly a bad deal. Hey for cats it is great...or any other animal. But for a psedo dargon or a pixie...not so much...:)
Stigger 01-18-08, 04:18 AM	Depends on how its treated really... good players can make it work in a sensible and beneficial sort of way, although bad ones can abuse the hell out of the system, I'll definitely agree there. Considering how often the familiar is portrayed as the mage's only true friend, I'm not sure I'd go so far as calling it a form a slavery.
Lord Karsus 01-18-08, 04:31 AM	-The mage and his familiar share a magical bond...:teach:
Stigger 01-18-08, 04:32 AM	Which doesn't even address the psychological and emotional bond that should result from that as well...
Lord Karsus 01-18-08, 04:35 AM	-That's the magical part.
Stigger 01-18-08, 04:46 AM	I'd argue that one... but I'm not really in the mood. I'd call it more of a byproduct myself.
MarkusTay63 01-18-08, 04:19 PM	Yeah, it usually even transcends the usual alignment problems - even Gromph Baenre loved his rat. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-18-08, 07:41 PM	Depends on how its treated really... good players can make it work in a sensible and beneficial sort of way, although bad ones can abuse the hell out of the system, I'll definitely agree there. Considering how often the familiar is portrayed as the mage's only true friend, I'm not sure I'd go so far as calling it a form a slavery. Yeah, I agree with that. At least, *I* don't see it as slavery.
XHereticX 01-18-08, 09:39 PM	Yeah, it usually even transcends the usual alignment problems - even Gromph Baenre loved his rat. ;) I woudn't call such a thing "love" as much as an artificial connection forged by magic that has the potential to develop into a true bond depending on the circumstances.
18DELTA 01-19-08, 12:11 AM	Let's see, Cat gets to live as long as a human being. He gets intelligence and a master that has to care for him or die. Yes, assuming it's not a willing summoning, it's not exactly a bad deal. -I was thinking that the cat would be master and me be the familiar!!!;) ;) ;) -Oh thats how it is here at home.:D LORD DELTA:bounce:
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 12:24 AM	I woudn't call such a thing "love" as much as an artificial connection forged by magic that has the potential to develop into a true bond depending on the circumstances. -Isn't that first part what love already is?
XHereticX 01-19-08, 12:31 AM	-Isn't that first part what love already is? A cynical and uncomprehending way to view the process.:)
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 12:43 AM	A cynical and uncomprehending way to view the process.:) -Not really. The definition of artificial: "Produced by Humans". The definition of magic: "Any extraordinary or mystical influence."
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 12:43 AM	Love is nothing more then a conditioned operent response to external stimuli. In other words... theres NO such thing.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 12:51 AM	Darn you overationalists, hasn't Romantiscism had any impact on your cold, dark souls???:(
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 12:55 AM	Darn you overationalists, hasn't Romantiscism had any impact on your cold, dark souls???:( -Magic, the mysterious, is romantic. Isn't it? -Hey, I'm a very charming guy, apparently.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 12:58 AM	Love is nothing more then a conditioned operent response to external stimuli. In other words... theres NO such thing. That dosen't make sense. If you already said that love is a stimuli, how can it not exist? Love is a chemical reaction that has been built into our system signaling that it is time to mate. Something can't be something and nothing at the same time:confused: Though in sentient creatures this simple instinct may be taken to levels of yet misunderstood complexity.
Charles Phipps 01-19-08, 01:03 AM	Though in sentient creatures this simple instinct may be taken to levels of yet misunderstood complexity. Lust is the instinctual reaction to mate. Love is humankind's attempt to foster a strong social-cultural phenomenon for mutual protection and support with emotional soothing of the body's discordant balances of anxiety. It's such a powerful communal instinct that it actually can result in individual sacrifice. I say this whenever people say love doesn't exist, just to bash the cynics. Humans are fun machines. It's a pity Skynet destroys us. But yes, Wizards usually bond with their familiars because they feel their familiar's emotions. So, if a Cat is abused, the wizard feels it to some extent. So, obviously most of them keep their animals happy.
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 01:13 AM	Mating is instinctual (didn't any of you kids see Blue Lagoon?) What happens when two people who fall in love is nothing more then two creatures who make each other feel good (happinees IS an emotion), which creates a subconscious desire to be in their presence more. The better two people make each other feel, the more they 'think' they are in love. If someone tells you your good looking every time they see you, wouldn't you want to run into them more (even if it's subconscious)? They make you feel good - thats all that is. Is a conditioned response, nothing more. I took a couple of semesters of Psych - word of advice; if your a 'Romantic', don't do it. I used to be a pretty decent poet in my day, and turned many a lasses head with a "fair word and a flower". Then I went to college - haven't wrote poetry since. :( Education ruins the mind.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 01:18 AM	Lust is the instinctual reaction to mate. Love is humankind's attempt to foster a strong social-cultural phenomenon for mutual protection and support with emotional soothing of the body's discordant balances of anxiety. It's such a powerful communal instinct that it actually can result in individual sacrifice. I say this whenever people say love doesn't exist, just to bash the cynics. Humans are fun machines. It's a pity Skynet destroys us. But yes, Wizards usually bond with their familiars because they feel their familiar's emotions. So, if a Cat is abused, the wizard feels it to some extent. So, obviously most of them keep their animals happy. I totally agree with you on this. It may have originated as a mating stimuli, but it has obviously evolved into something with far greater social and emotional significance with humanity.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:22 AM	-It bet Worlds and Monsters doesn't touch on any of this at all. A shame...
XHereticX 01-19-08, 01:30 AM	-It bet Worlds and Monsters doesn't touch on any of this at all. A shame... Hey, you get simple explanations to simple topics, what more can you want?:P
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 01:41 AM	Perhaps it will be covered in the next preview book - Wizards presnts: Players and Parameciums Its all about their design goals, and the creatures they think are inferior and not worth listening to.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:48 AM	Perhaps it will be covered in the next preview book - Wizards presnts: Players and Parameciums Its all about their design goals, and the creatures they think are inferior and not worth listening to. -It sounds silly, but I'd actually want to see a book that explains why the dropped a lot of the arbitrary stuff they are dropping.
msatran 01-19-08, 03:48 AM	I hate the mythological inconsistencies. Why is the lamia from Greek Mythology covered in beetles, whereas the Oni from Japanese Mythology is straight up out of the art box? And I've said this once, I'll say it again. Why the !@#$$%%@!!@ !@#$ity stinking !@#$$%$% does a DRYAD need a combat form? It looks like a bloody Were-gingko.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 03:57 AM	Why the !@#$$%%@!!@ !@#$ity stinking !@#$$%$% does a DRYAD need a combat form? -That, I cannot answer, and I agree with the notion of your righteous outrage.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 09:09 AM	I hate the mythological inconsistencies. Why is the lamia from Greek Mythology covered in beetles, whereas the Oni from Japanese Mythology is straight up out of the art box? And I've said this once, I'll say it again. Why the !@#$$%%@!!@ !@#$ity stinking !@#$$%$% does a DRYAD need a combat form? It looks like a bloody Were-gingko. Consistancy has never been one of WoTC's strong points because they are so focused on Retconning old material to make it "easier to comprehend" for new players. Just look at the whole Cosmology scandal.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 09:26 AM	Just look at the whole Cosmology scandal. -I think it's almost comical that the in FR, the Great Wheel was retconned to become the Great Tree, and then in a few short years, it is retconned to be the 4e Cosmology.
18DELTA 01-19-08, 01:33 PM	-It looks like The City of Brass is the new Sigil. On page 61 W/M. Written be Chris Sims.:rolleyes: Lord of the Efreet, "Bashamgurda" relies more on guile than sheer elemental power. He has his throne in the City of Brass, a fiery metropolis built on a basalt plate in an immense volcanic field. Magma flows in rivers through and around the city, whose gates are fortiied and the streets policed like those of any major settlement in the world. By "Bashamgurda's" decree, the heat in and around the city is merely uncomfortable rather than deadly to those not inured to fire. At the center of it all stands the "Burning Palace",its towers taller than any other structure in the "City of Brass. Within the stronghold, from hus obsidian seat, "Bashamgurda" treats with invited guests and plots against his enemies, primordial or other wise. THE OLDEST AND LARGEST IN ALL CREATION, THE "CITY OF BRASS" IS A NEXUS FOR PLANAR TRAVELLERS-IF YOU LOOK LONG AND HARD ENOUGH, YOU CAN FIND ANYTHING YOU HAVE EVER IMAGINED SOMEWHERE IN ITS LABYRINTHINE AVENUES. -So I take it that "The City of Brass" killed "Sigil" and took its stuff?:rolleyes: LORD DELTA:detect:
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:41 PM	-The City of Brass was always that, though- a planar crossroads. Don't know about the oldest and/or, as truthfully, I'm not exactly the most well-versed in Planescape lore, but, I'm sure every large cross-planar nexus city claims to be the oldest and largest. Look at how many places claim to have invented the pizza.
johnkretzer 01-19-08, 01:41 PM	-It looks like The City of Brass is the new Sigil. On page 61 W/M. Written be Chris Sims.:rolleyes: Lord of the Efreet, "Bashamgurda" relies more on guile than sheer elemental power. He has his throne in the City of Brass, a fiery metropolis built on a basalt plate in an immense volcanic field. Magma flows in rivers through and around the city, whose gates are fortiied and the streets policed like those of any major settlement in the world. By "Bashamgurda's" decree, the heat in and around the city is merely uncomfortable rather than deadly to those not inured to fire. At the center of it all stands the "Burning Palace",its towers taller than any other structure in the "City of Brass. Within the stronghold, from hus obsidian seat, "Bashamgurda" treats with invited guests and plots against his enemies, primordial or other wise. THE OLDEST AND LARGEST IN ALL CREATION, THE "CITY OF BRASS" IS A NEXUS FOR PLANAR TRAVELLERS-IF YOU LOOK LONG AND HARD ENOUGH, YOU CAN FIND ANYTHING YOU HAVE EVER IMAGINED SOMEWHERE IN ITS LABYRINTHINE AVENUES. -So I take it that "The City of Brass" killed "Sigil" and took its stuff?:rolleyes: LORD DELTA:detect: Booo, Hissss
GreenKnight 01-19-08, 02:06 PM	You can have more then one port of call/hub of activity/what have you. Just because the City of Brass is a planar crossroad, it doesn't mean it's the only one.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 02:16 PM	-'zactly.
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 02:17 PM	The City of Brass and Sigil are both discussed in the Planers Handbook (I think thats the one, might be 4eDD), so they are NOT mutually exclusive. The designers have already mentioned Sigil still exists - the Outlands just may not be physically anchored to the other planes anymore. The 'Gate Towns' now truly become just that - Giant Gates. Whats the difference, to someone travelling there, of weather the gate is physical or magical, if it works precisely the same way? :confused:
johnkretzer 01-19-08, 02:29 PM	The City of Brass and Sigil are both discussed in the Planers Handbook (I think thats the one, might be 4eDD), so they are NOT mutually exclusive. The designers have already mentioned Sigil still exists - the Outlands just may not be physically anchored to the other planes anymore. The 'Gate Towns' now truly become just that - Giant Gates. Whats the difference, to someone travelling there, of weather the gate is physical or magical, if it works precisely the same way? :confused: Nothing really I always thought they were magical gates...*Shrug* I just don'r like these changes because new people to the game will just stare at me funny...
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 02:30 PM	I just don'r like these changes because new people to the game will just stare at me funny... -But, in this case, nothing changed.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 02:39 PM	-But, in this case, nothing changed. But now they can jump up and scream:"ur lor iz oudted, i pwnz u. Now lez git som phat lewt.";)
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 02:47 PM	-And you can counter, "It's always been like that, you dumb f***." :) -And, somehow involve their momma in the equation.
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 03:25 PM	The God Phat Lewt ONLY answers the prayers of the terminally inarticulate. ;)
msatran 01-19-08, 04:18 PM	I've always loved the City of Brass. It never really got it's due, but that doesn't mean that I'm willing to nuke Sigil for it.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 04:50 PM	The God Phat Lewt ONLY answers the prayers of the terminally inarticulate. ;) In reality, Phat Lewt is an aspect of Oghma that had been brainwashed by Ilsensine.;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-19-08, 09:30 PM	deleted
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-19-08, 09:32 PM	-The City of Brass was always that, though- a planar crossroads. Yeah, I did get that impression when I read about it in the recent novel The Gossamer Plain.
Kenzuki 01-19-08, 09:48 PM	Yeah, I did get that impression when I read about it in the recent novel The Gossamer Plain. Was that novel any good? I liked the two half-fiends from Insurrection.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 10:06 PM	Was that novel any good? I liked the two half-fiends from Insurrection. A little dull, but a good insight into the mind of a half-fiend raised amongst demons that is possibly comprehending redemption.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-19-08, 10:08 PM	Was that novel any good? I liked the two half-fiends from Insurrection. If so, you'll probably like the novel.:) Overall, I enjoyed it, especially the plotline following Aliizsa. Kaanyr's plotline was more on the dull side for me, mainly because it was about getting from point A to point B, peppered with (IMO) pointless "random encounters". But I liked the part where they are in the City of Brass.
Lord Karsus 01-20-08, 03:17 AM	I've always loved the City of Brass. It never really got it's due, but that doesn't mean that I'm willing to nuke Sigil for it. -Sigil isn't getting nuked. Was that novel any good? I liked the two half-fiends from Insurrection. -I'd recommend it simply because it provides Realmlore, but I didn't like it very much. The storyline with Aliiza is very choppy, and leaves you wondering, "Wait, what's going on?" multiple times. The storyline with Vhok, though, is decent.
MarkusTay63 01-20-08, 01:00 PM	You do realize that you two just pretty much said the opposite, right? ;)
Mula 01-20-08, 01:04 PM	I hate the mythological inconsistencies. Why is the lamia from Greek Mythology covered in beetles, whereas the Oni from Japanese Mythology is straight up out of the art box? You must have hated the 3e lamia then. Or dragons that breathe lighting, acid, cold, or anything else except fire. And sun elves? Moon elves? Any D&D elf, really.
18DELTA 01-20-08, 01:39 PM	-I never saw "Sigil" mentioned in the book. Looking at the way they are changing everything, it wouldn't suprize me in the least if "Sigil' went bye-bye. I would like it to stay, yet reading in the book "no more Bugus Paralellism", "dont bow to needless symmetry". LORD DELTA:detect:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-20-08, 08:13 PM	You do realize that you two just pretty much said the opposite, right? ;) Yes. :rofl:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-20-08, 08:15 PM	I would like it to stay, yet reading in the book "no more Bugus Paralellism", "dont bow to needless symmetry". See, while I LIKE Sigil and I LIKE the Great Wheel cosmology, I found myself agreeing with James Wyatt when he said he didn't care for "forced symmetry" as a design principle.
Lord Karsus 01-21-08, 03:13 AM	You do realize that you two just pretty much said the opposite, right? ;) -We're allowed to have differing opinions, aren't we? -I never saw "Sigil" mentioned in the book. Looking at the way they are changing everything, it wouldn't suprize me in the least if "Sigil' went bye-bye. -The lack of evidence, however, does not result in a lack of truth. Don't forget that. ;) I would like it to stay, yet reading in the book "no more Bugus Paralellism", "dont bow to needless symmetry". -What are those points? Basically, you don't need a bunch of the same kinds of places/things/people/etc.?
18DELTA 01-21-08, 11:34 AM	-The lack of evidence, however, does not result in a lack of truth. Don't forget that. ;) -Right.;) -What are those points? Basically, you don't need a bunch of the same kinds of places/things/people/etc.? -Just some quotes from various places in the book, let me know their design philosophy(Along with the Key Conceits). They mentioned one city, "The City of Brass"(which is an Iconic location). So why have two planar nexus cities, when they can have one. MAKES IT EASIER ON THE DESIGNERS TO HAVE ONLY ONE. Does that make any sense?;) -P.S. What do you think is kewler-A city built on the inside of a "Goodyear Tire" in the middle of a plane that no longer exists in the Core Cosmology thats ruled by the :lop: , or a city that exists in somewhere in the Elemental Chaos that has lava flows, high but livable heat ruled by an Efreet Lord?;) LORD DELTA:detect:
Alediran 01-21-08, 11:58 AM	Give me the Lady of Pain, the most powerfull entity of the universe (because it only has one stat, Alignment: LN, so she has no rules that regulates her power, then she has infinite power).
MarkusTay63 01-21-08, 12:14 PM	They are both cool and different enough to survive into 4e - Rich Baker has already said that a version of the Great Wheel could easily be fit into the new version of the Astral Sea. I interpret that to mean the Outlands (including Sigil and the Endless Spire) floating in the Astral, with Planar Gates located at all the Gate Towns - it works out exactly the same. As for 'forced symetry' - I think they mean to do away with the concept of 'opposites'. You know, because we have Elves, we got Drow, because there are Dwarves, there are the Derro and Dueragar, etc... Gygax was very into 'balance', and for everything he created, he envisioned its 'opposite' somewhere in the universe. This is just one more step in bringing the game further away from Gygax's original vision of the multiverse. The Great Wheel itself was one of the best examples of 'forced symetry', and the Far Realms was the first new example of something outside of that symetry.
Lord Karsus 01-21-08, 12:23 PM	-P.S. What do you think is kewler-A city built on the inside of a "Goodyear Tire" in the middle of a plane that no longer exists in the Core Cosmology thats ruled by the :lop: , or a city that exists in somewhere in the Elemental Chaos that has lava flows, high but livable heat ruled by an Efreet Lord?;) LORD DELTA:detect: -Truthfully? The City of Brass. -I like Planescape, but in the scope that it illuminates the multiverse. Sigil is good and all, but I'm not super attached to it. Perhaps if I ever played a Planescape campaign, I might be more attached to it. Maybe not. -I like Middle-Eastern culture. I loved the "failure of a CD" that was Jimmy Page and Robert Plant, after they infused classic Led Zep songs with arabesque musical meters, instruments, etc. I like Middle-Eastern food. Kabobs, Shawarma, Halva...Mmm. The only stuff comparable is Indian food, and Ashkenazi Jew food (Heh, that sounded funny.). -Anyway, there is just something about a massive city in the Elemental Plane of Fire with a fantastical Middle-Eastern influence, ruled over by an extremely powerful Efreet Sultan..:)
MarkusTay63 01-21-08, 12:44 PM	And the City of Doors is just as intriguiging, if not more-so, because of its very 'alieness'. I think, maybe, you just aren't as familiar with Sigil (or its visuals) as you are with The CoB, LK. I'm not putting the COB down or anything, but Sigil is an extradinary place! I like both, a lot, and would not like to lose either in 4e. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/02/Pgp_007_01.jpg/355px-Pgp_007_01.jpg How could you NOT love that? Its.... ICONIC!!! :D
Mula 01-21-08, 01:12 PM	The Doughnut City!
Lord Karsus 01-21-08, 01:38 PM	And the City of Doors is just as intriguiging, if not more-so, because of its very 'alieness'. I think, maybe, you just aren't as familiar with Sigil (or its visuals) as you are with The CoB, LK. I'm not putting the COB down or anything, but Sigil is an extradinary place! -I'm familiar with Sigil- I have 85% of all of the Planescape sourcebooks, I've read the FR novels that take place in Sigil (Finder's Bane and Tymora's Luck). Ironically enough, I know much more about Sigil than the City of Brass. Everything I really know about the City of Brass was summed up in my post above (:embarrass). -I didn't say that Sigil isn't an intriguing and/or interesting place. I just think the City of Brass is more intriguing and/or interesting. I like both, a lot, and would not like to lose either in 4e. -Well, thus far, we're probably not, so. Phew.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-21-08, 01:51 PM	The Doughnut City! Mula, you just ruin it for me....:allalone:
18DELTA 01-21-08, 01:54 PM	Mula, you just ruin it for me....:allalone: -:rofl: LORD DELTA:rofl:
MarkusTay63 01-21-08, 04:13 PM	Does that mean if they do get rid of it, they'll have Homer Simpson eat it?! :eek:
18DELTA 01-21-08, 05:32 PM	Does that mean if they do get rid of it, they'll have Homer Simpson eat it?! :eek: -:doh: LORD DELTA;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-21-08, 07:25 PM	-What are those points? Basically, you don't need a bunch of the same kinds of places/things/people/etc.? "Don't bow to needless symmetry" basically means that the designers shouldn't feel forced to "fill in the gaps". For example, if there's a race of evil snake people, don't feel forced to make a race of GOOD snake people to balance the scales. The examples from the book were based largely around the Great Wheel cosmology--a plane for every alignment, a plane in-between the alignments, a city in the Outlands representing those planes, and so on...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-21-08, 07:27 PM	As for 'forced symetry' - I think they mean to do away with the concept of 'opposites'. You know, because we have Elves, we got Drow, because there are Dwarves, there are the Derro and Dueragar, etc... Indeed, that's a good way of putting it.:)
johnkretzer 01-22-08, 04:29 AM	"Don't bow to needless symmetry" basically means that the designers shouldn't feel forced to "fill in the gaps". For example, if there's a race of evil snake people, don't feel forced to make a race of GOOD snake people to balance the scales. The examples from the book were based largely around the Great Wheel cosmology--a plane for every alignment, a plane in-between the alignments, a city in the Outlands representing those planes, and so on... The thing is on the planes I think perfect symmetry makes sense. It is all about ideas after all. But now we are getting on the Prime. For instance each race as to have a specfic terrain...and class that they are clearly good at. I think that is needless symmetry.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 04:42 AM	"Don't bow to needless symmetry" basically means that the designers shouldn't feel forced to "fill in the gaps". For example, if there's a race of evil snake people, don't feel forced to make a race of GOOD snake people to balance the scales. The examples from the book were based largely around the Great Wheel cosmology--a plane for every alignment, a plane in-between the alignments, a city in the Outlands representing those planes, and so on... -Hmm...In regards to races and places, I think that makes sense, and is a good mantra. However, regarding Planes, I don't think that is a good idea, and that there should be a plane/demiplane representing, well, everything.
Jarred_Garrison 01-22-08, 12:17 PM	I agree. When it comes to the prime material plane, and the races that inhabit it, there´s no need to respect any kind of symmetry. However, the planes (as originally conceived in planescape 2nd. ed) reflect beliefs and ideas, and for each idea, there´s usually a totally symmetrical one to it (more so in Dnd pre-4th. edition, where alignment could be represented in a circle, with direct opposites in the CG/LE, LG/CE diameters). Given that the idea of planes being shaped by belief is probably not how things work on the new cosmology, there´s no need to stick to said symmetry... But it´s something I´ll miss, since it felt rather elegant and well-thought.
msatran 01-22-08, 12:55 PM	And the City of Doors is just as intriguiging, if not more-so, because of its very 'alieness'. I think, maybe, you just aren't as familiar with Sigil (or its visuals) as you are with The CoB, LK. I'm not putting the COB down or anything, but Sigil is an extradinary place! I like both, a lot, and would not like to lose either in 4e. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/02/Pgp_007_01.jpg/355px-Pgp_007_01.jpg How could you NOT love that? Its.... ICONIC!!! :D Uhm...uh...I'm not looking a donut, Markus. I'm looking at...well...uhm...:) That really is the worst phallic image I've ever seen in a D+D product.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 01:25 PM	:uh-huh: :nonono: -Nah, I don't think Disney was involved in that drawing, though, I might be wrong.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 02:01 PM	But now we are getting on the Prime. For instance each race as to have a specfic terrain...and class that they are clearly good at. I think that is needless symmetry. I agree, that's sort of an example of symmetry as well.
18DELTA 01-22-08, 02:09 PM	I agree, that's sort of an example of symmetry as well. -Yeah they get to pick and chose, don't they? In 10 years their will be a new batch of designers picking and chosing, so on and so forth!:rolleyes: LORD DIRTY;)
XHereticX 01-22-08, 07:40 PM	The Doughnut City! Great, are they going to make Homer Simpson an Elder Evil now?
18DELTA 01-23-08, 12:08 AM	Great, are they going to make Homer Simpson an Elder Evil now? -The Elder Silly.;) :P :D LORD DELTA:D
GreenKnight 01-23-08, 02:27 PM	Thought you folks might appreciate hearing that SIGIL IS IN!!! http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14892689#post14892689 Sigil is in, mostly because I whined at James Wyatt until he gave me a paragraph about it for the DMG. Ah, editor power...! __________________ Michele Carter RPG Editing Team Lead SUPER-squirrel. :) Sigil is still under development, as it were, and you'll see more about it in future projects. But it still exists, and the Lady of Pain still rules it, and it's still the City of Doors. Purely for my own amusement I've done some speculation about Sigil's place in the 4E cosmology, and I'm very, very excited to see where it goes. The soul of Planescape (near and dear to me) will remain very much alive. Quote: Originally Posted by Blackrat Is still a doughnut? Can you at least tell us this. For me the three defining features are the Doors, Lady of Pain and the shape. If I have anything to say about it (heh), it will still be a doughnut. Nothing like looking "up" and seeing the city curve above you. And cranium rats and razorvine, of course. Wouldn't be Sigil without 'em. __________________ Michele Carter RPG Editing Team Lead
MarkusTay63 01-23-08, 02:44 PM	I am SO happy. :cloud9: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2f/Pgp_005_01.jpg Damn shame we FR fans have to rely on the 'deep thinkers' of Eberron to help save D&D. :lop: Can we get James Wyatt for 5e? :(
johnkretzer 01-23-08, 03:13 PM	Thought you folks might appreciate hearing that SIGIL IS IN!!! http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14892689#post14892689 No it won't be Sigil....it will just be a dumbed down version of Sigil. With out the politics of the Great Wheel Cosomogly what is the point?
Charles Phipps 01-23-08, 03:22 PM	Bah, Sigil's politics were all self-contained. The Great Wheel was a joke anyway, I said that with Forgotten Realms. You can certainly do Planescape: Torment without the Blood War.
Stigger 01-23-08, 04:48 PM	Change the societal dynamic, and everything will be altered on a fundamental level eventually. I rather liked the options approach they used in 3e for the planes, although I still prefer the Great Wheel. Whether that's sentimentality or some superiority of the model I see... I have no idea, I just prefer it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 07:02 PM	I heard the news on Candlekeep--I'm very happy.:)
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 12:24 AM	-See, I told everyone...
johnkretzer 01-24-08, 02:11 AM	I heard the news on Candlekeep--I'm very happy.:) Sp are you going tell us this news that has made you happy?
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 09:42 AM	Sp are you going tell us this news that has made you happy? -That Sigil still exists, I am assuming.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-24-08, 12:28 PM	Yes, I am happy Sigil still exists in some form.:) Of course, if they did get rid of it, I'd just keep it around anyway.:)
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 12:39 PM	-What they should do with 95% of the stuff that is 'not wanted' anymore is just simply ignore it to the umteenth degree, like Spelljamming, or Sigil in 3e was. Thus, while it is not longer activley supported, there is nothing outright saying that it no longer exists, making people who don't like it and do like it happy.
18DELTA 01-25-08, 01:02 AM	-Worlds and Monsters Excerpts (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080125a). This is up at the main site. Enjoy peeps!!!;) 18DELTA;)
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 08:38 AM	-Thank you for that.
18DELTA 01-25-08, 10:50 AM	-Thank you for that. -:tiphat: :emp: :tiphat: :D 18DELTA:)
MarkusTay63 01-25-08, 11:31 AM	Well, at least we know one thing for sure, the Feywild will be the power source for Arcane magic - "This is a dangerous, twilight realm of natural beauty heightened beyond mortal experience, charged with raw arcane essence." Which wipes out all my theores about Fey magic being different from Arcane Magic. :( Every time I think I've found some sort of good reasoning behind 4e, they go and drop the ball. :nonono:
Alediran 01-25-08, 11:43 AM	Every time I think I've found some sort of good reasoning behind 4e, they go and drop the ball. :nonono: That's a skill they developed rather well.
18DELTA 01-25-08, 12:23 PM	Well, at least we know one thing for sure, the Feywild will be the power source for Arcane magic - "This is a dangerous, twilight realm of natural beauty heightened beyond mortal experience, charged with raw arcane essence." Which wipes out all my theores about Fey magic being different from Arcane Magic. :( Every time I think I've found some sort of good reasoning behind 4e, they go and drop the ball. :nonono: -Maybe you just jump to conclusions and overreact, before we get the full story?:P But hey your theory was nice while it lasted. I wonder how many of Einstiens(sp) theories were like that, so it happens to the best of them. So buck up chap we still get the Feywild, so it cant be that bad right?:D 18DELTA;)
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 02:00 PM	-Plane of Faerie, represent! http://www.gangsterbb.net/emoticons/pimp.gif
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-25-08, 04:19 PM	Hmm, thanks for the excerpts, but I already have the book.;)
GreenKnight 01-25-08, 04:24 PM	Hmm, thanks for the excerpts, but I already have the book.;) I'd been waiting for someone to pay me back a loan I floated them so I could buy the book, but once I got paid back, all I could think was "I was planning on buying something. What was it?". Heh, thanks for reminding me. :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-25-08, 04:30 PM	I'd been waiting for someone to pay me back a loan I floated them so I could buy the book, but once I got paid back, all I could think was "I was planning on buying something. What was it?". Heh, thanks for reminding me. :D You're welcome.:D
johnkretzer 01-25-08, 08:47 PM	Well, at least we know one thing for sure, the Feywild will be the power source for Arcane magic - "This is a dangerous, twilight realm of natural beauty heightened beyond mortal experience, charged with raw arcane essence." Which wipes out all my theores about Fey magic being different from Arcane Magic. :( Every time I think I've found some sort of good reasoning behind 4e, they go and drop the ball. :nonono: It is odd that. I mean everything I liked about D&D and the Realms to them are uncool and must be changed. I just don't get it.
XHereticX 01-25-08, 08:52 PM	Well, at least we know one thing for sure, the Feywild will be the power source for Arcane magic - "This is a dangerous, twilight realm of natural beauty heightened beyond mortal experience, charged with raw arcane essence." Which wipes out all my theores about Fey magic being different from Arcane Magic. :( Every time I think I've found some sort of good reasoning behind 4e, they go and drop the ball. :nonono: Sigil's saved, yes:D Hn, it sounds like all 4E magic is going to be reminescent of Elven High Magic.
18DELTA 01-26-08, 12:15 AM	Hmm, thanks for the excerpts, but I already have the book.;) -Are you getting sassy with me lady?;):P :D -The excerpts are for the knuckleheads that dont get the book.:D 18DELTA:rofl:
XHereticX 01-26-08, 12:18 AM	I don't have the book, I just read it in the bookstore, like I do with most WoTC books:D We asians are very cheap.;)
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:45 AM	We asians are very cheap.;) -Psh, you think you're cheap? I've got that market cornered...:cool:
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:40 AM	-Psh, you think you're cheap? I've got that market cornered...:cool: The well awaits, my good-humored semetic friend...:D
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 10:52 AM	My ex's stepdad was Scottish - I'm sure he can teach both of you a thing or two... ;) I read it in the store as well, but its nice to have softcopies of these excerpts on hand (so I can find more stuff to rip WotC apart over). :P
Khaelieth 01-26-08, 01:04 PM	Hey, I'm Scots!
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 01:10 PM	According to my in-laws, they're the only group with a worse rep for 'frugality' then the Jews. :D But, of course, thats Stereotyping... and I'm against that. ;) Hmmmm... I just realized we are talking about human ethnicities in a thread with the word 'Monsters' in the title. :P Not good form... not at all...
XHereticX 01-26-08, 01:18 PM	Hmmmm... I just realized we are talking about human ethnicities in a thread with the word 'Monsters' in the title. :P . I am glad you have recognized the true nature of humanity at last.:coolcthul
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 02:48 PM	I've always thought of humans as monsters - hence my Avatar - and it appears that WotC has finally agreed with me. In 4e, Humans are the most easily corrupted race. :D
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:13 PM	I've always thought of humans as monsters - hence my Avatar - and it appears that WotC has finally agreed with me. In 4e, Humans are the most easily corrupted race. :D So are you willing to take the final step in your acceptance?:devil: When they said beauty is in the eye of the beholder, they weren't being metaphorical...
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 06:25 PM	So are you willing to take the final step in your acceptance?:devil: -No beastiality. I'm putting my foot down. Sorry...:P
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:27 PM	-No beastiality. I'm putting my foot down. Sorry...:P Damn it Karsus, did you have to foil my plan to breed humans with Abberations...:mad:
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 06:35 PM	-Sorry, but that's just too weird. Conduct your experiments when I'm not around. :P
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:36 PM	-Sorry, but that's just too weird. Conduct your experiments when I'm not around. :P ...."snarls and retreats to the shadows."
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 08:32 PM	-Are you getting sassy with me lady?;):P :D Yes.:D
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:37 PM	-Want me to smack him? :cool:
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:40 PM	-Want me to smack him? :cool: Someone needs to smack a hoe:cool:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 08:59 PM	-Want me to smack him? :cool: Oh!:embarrass
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 09:12 PM	-Him being a Hand of Karsus, and me being, well, Karsus, allows me to do that, no problem.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 09:21 PM	I'll get back to you on that...;)
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 09:22 PM	-Him being a Hand of Karsus, and me being, well, Karsus, allows me to do that, no problem.Then wouldn't that just be 'clapping'? :confused:
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 09:26 PM	Then wouldn't that just be 'clapping'? :confused: -No, that would only be if I instructed one of my other Hands to smack him. -If I smack him, it'd be...beating myself? Hmm, that doesn't sound good...
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 09:36 PM	It would only be gross if you used one of your 'hands' to spank Delta - isn't he technically the 'nads' of Karsus? :P
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:38 PM	http://www.hogwild.net/images/Balloons/2003.06.08/tennis-masturbation.jpg
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 09:42 PM	I didn't know you could give "an assist" in tennis! :eek:
Alediran 01-26-08, 09:57 PM	ROFL, stop guys or you are going to make me droll my keyboard.
18DELTA 01-27-08, 12:59 AM	Yes.:D -Well I was going to post something to the effect of putting you over my knee and giving you a good sound spanking for getting sassy with me Lady!!!:D Butt I decided not to then. Butt now the kid gloves are off!!!;) :P :D 18DELTA:dancin:
18DELTA 01-27-08, 01:05 AM	It would only be gross if you used one of your 'hands' to spank Delta - isn't he technically the 'nads' of Karsus? :P -:ahem: :noway: :yuck: :raincloud :uh-huh: :nonono: :bigeyes: :censored: :headexplo :hoppingma:banghead: :rant: THAT WOULD BE THE ORBS OF KARSUS YOU NIT WITS!!! GET IT RIGHT!!!:D 18DELTA;) :P :D
GreenKnight 01-27-08, 02:35 AM	Well, if we're each laying claim to bits of Karsus, then I nominate myself as Karsus' cyclopean pink eye, which peers into the recesses of the Far Realms.
Dzwood 01-27-08, 02:46 AM	Well, if we're each laying claim to bits of Karsus, then I nominate myself as Karsus' cyclopean pink eye, which peers into the recesses of the Far Realms. Ewwww I dont care if it is cyclopean or not they make drops to get rid of that nasty pinkness and dry crusty stuff. You should get that looked at LK. Hmmmm maybe it is a sign you your upcoming shift in nature. Do you feel more fay as your eye gets pinker?
XHereticX 01-27-08, 09:50 AM	Well, if we're each laying claim to bits of Karsus, then I nominate myself as Karsus' cyclopean pink eye, which peers into the recesses of the Far Realms. Nah, all things Abberation in nature are already dominated by myself, as are all things related to devils and Rock N'Roll:cool:
18DELTA 01-27-08, 11:19 AM	Well, if we're each laying claim to bits of Karsus, then I nominate myself as Karsus' cyclopean pink eye, which peers into the recesses of the Far Realms. -:uh-huh:...:looloo: So you are the Tip of the "Wand of Karsus"? 18DELTA:rofl:
Alediran 01-27-08, 11:28 AM	I'm the elven hand of karsus.
XHereticX 01-27-08, 11:29 AM	I'm the elven hand of karsus. And I'm the Pimp Hand;)
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 12:36 PM	-...I'm apparently some kind of freak of nature...:raincloud
msatran 01-27-08, 01:34 PM	This is why I choose not to serve. Because apparently Karsus got served and divided up, and he didn't even know it.
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 01:43 PM	No, you're just FR's version of Master Pandemonium. :D http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Master_Pandemonium.jpg
18DELTA 01-27-08, 01:56 PM	No, you're just FR's version of Master Pandemonium. :D http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Master_Pandemonium.jpg -:dancin: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :dancin: 18DELTA:P
XHereticX 01-27-08, 02:42 PM	-...I'm apparently some kind of freak of nature...:raincloud http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo
GreenKnight 01-27-08, 03:04 PM	I'm the elven hand of karsus. Stay away from me.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-27-08, 03:13 PM	I'm the "Mojo" of Karsus :D
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 04:48 PM	THIS Mojo? :eek: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/Uncanny461.jpg/400px-Uncanny461.jpg
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-27-08, 04:52 PM	THIS Mojo? :eek: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/Uncanny461.jpg/400px-Uncanny461.jpg I have no counter for that, so therefore I HATE you!:P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-27-08, 07:32 PM	-Well I was going to post something to the effect of putting you over my knee and giving you a good sound spanking for getting sassy with me Lady!!!:D Butt I decided not to then. Butt now the kid gloves are off!!!;) :P :D 18DELTA:dancin: You said "butt"! :rofl:
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 10:42 PM	-He probably did that one purpose... -Speaking of Worlds and Monsters, I believe I've created a proverbial monster...
18DELTA 01-28-08, 12:22 AM	You said "butt"! :rofl: -You liked that one eh? I knew deep down in side you are a...well nevermind I really dont want to get banned from this forum.;) :P :D That was a good one MT63, BUTT are you Spiral, Mojo's lackey? Or is it Major Domo?:P :P :P ;) :D -Yes I did that on purpose LK!!!:) 18DELTA:rofl:
GreenKnight 01-28-08, 12:33 AM	-Yes I did that on purpose LK!!!:) And that's why you're Dirty Delta, cause you're always grabbing at the assend of the joke. :P
XHereticX 01-28-08, 09:10 AM	THIS Mojo? :eek: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/Uncanny461.jpg/400px-Uncanny461.jpg I do not want to know what part of Karsus that is...:eek:
18DELTA 01-28-08, 11:48 PM	-This is for Rinonalyrna http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg240/18DELTA/image001.gif -Too CUTE!!!:D 18DELTA:D
Charles Phipps 01-28-08, 11:59 PM	Also for Rino... http://cakonos.image.pbase.com/image/20426395.jpg
18DELTA 01-29-08, 12:02 AM	Also for Rino... http://cakonos.image.pbase.com/image/20426395.jpg -Right on!!!:dancin: :clap: :dancin: 18DELTA:D
Lord Karsus 01-29-08, 12:05 AM	-This is for Rinonalyrna -Too CUTE!!!:D 18DELTA:D -That picture doesn't even look real...
18DELTA 01-29-08, 12:12 AM	-That picture doesn't even look real... :pbbbtt: -HATER.;) 18DELTA:P
MarkusTay63 01-29-08, 11:24 AM	So what is that? A Pussniper? :D
Suin Bahhar 01-29-08, 12:46 PM	Obviously it's a catburglar...
Charles Phipps 01-29-08, 01:00 PM	No, it's a CN Catfolk Assassin 3/Cleric of Selune 7. He's so badass, he doesn't need the other parts of his crossbow.
MarkusTay63 01-29-08, 01:05 PM	I would have guessed a Tabaxi divine assassin of Sharess, but what do I know? ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-29-08, 08:19 PM	I love, love, love cats and kittens.:)
Charles Phipps 01-29-08, 08:49 PM	You can tell it's a Selunite Cat. Because of the Star Holy Symbol.
18DELTA 01-29-08, 09:03 PM	-Yeah my sister sent that picture in an e-mail to my mom. I had to snag it.:) 18DELTA:cool:
Vulpes 01-29-08, 11:33 PM	I can killz wereratz?!
XHereticX 02-01-08, 08:06 AM	http://perrylogan.org/images/Giffers/MachineGunKitty.gif
18DELTA 02-01-08, 11:34 AM	http://perrylogan.org/images/Giffers/MachineGunKitty.gif -:rofl: :bow: :rofl: :bow: :rofl: :bow: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :tiphat: :dancin: :clap: :cloud9: 18DELTA:D
XHereticX 02-01-08, 11:50 AM	Yeah, I was suprised too when they decided to allow kittens into the Marine Corps.:D
MarkusTay63 02-01-08, 11:53 AM	Definately send that cat to Iraq. :D And Delta, what did I tell you about fondling your smileys? ;)
XHereticX 02-01-08, 11:57 AM	Definately send that cat to Iraq. :D And Delta, what did I tell you about fondling your smileys? ;) With an entire corps of cats we might actually get the war resolved in a few months. Ahh, the power of thermonuclear hairballs.:)
MarkusTay63 02-01-08, 12:07 PM	And the troops are self-replacing! Stray Cats breed faster then Orcs! :P
XHereticX 02-01-08, 12:13 PM	And the troops are self-replacing! Stray Cats breed faster then Orcs! :P We'll also solve the hunger problem for the civilians:D
MarkusTay63 02-01-08, 12:18 PM	Only if we import a few Chinese Cooks. :P
XHereticX 02-01-08, 12:23 PM	Only if we import a few Chinese Cooks. :P That reminds me of a funny story. One of my friends went back to her family's home in China and found that the neighbors had eaten her cat (or was it a dog).
Alediran 02-01-08, 12:56 PM	Only if we import a few Chinese Cooks. :P Or a couple argentinian cooks from Santa Fe.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 01:53 PM	Or a couple argentinian cooks from Santa Fe. Yo quiero Taco Bell :D
18DELTA 02-02-08, 02:33 AM	And Delta, what did I tell you about fondling your smileys? ;) -:) :( :D ;) :P :embarrass :cool: :rolleyes: :mad: :eek: :confused: :weep: :rofl: 18DELTA:D
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-03-08, 11:51 AM	Yo quiero Taco Bell :D Will people understand the difference between argentinian, Mexican, puertorican and so on..... :(
MarkusTay63 02-03-08, 12:19 PM	I do... I worked with El Salvadorians for years, and they taught me the 'pecking order'. :P And strangely, they don't consider themselves at the top of the food chain. ;)
XHereticX 02-03-08, 12:22 PM	Will people understand the difference between argentinian, Mexican, puertorican and so on..... :( Hmm, they all speak the same language and have essentially the same background. So I generally consiter all Latin Americans to be in the same ethnic group (well, except for Brazilians). But I do acknowledge that their cultures are somewhat diverse.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-03-08, 12:51 PM	Well, not really the way an argentinian talks is WAY different than every other spanish-speaking country for intance, and puertoricans are the HOTEST PEOPLE ON EARTH :D Is like when some one compare japanise with chinise. but I was just joking anyways
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 12:53 PM	...and puertoricans are the HOTEST PEOPLE ON EARTH... -I don't know about that...I think they oftentimes run the extremes: Either they are really good looking, or really ugly.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 12:54 PM	Sure there are many native slang words and phase usages that are different (as well as the local accents). But it's all still Spanish. Chinese and Japanese on the other hand, are totally different languages (even though Kanji is based off of Chinese calligraphy).
XHereticX 02-03-08, 12:55 PM	-I don't know about that...I think they oftentimes run the extremes: Either they are really good looking, or really ugly. That's generally the way it is with most Caucasian women.
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 01:09 PM	That's generally the way it is with most Caucasian women. -I disagree. There are a lot of pretty ones, ugly ones, and then there are a lot who are just 'in between'. They aren't exceptionally pretty, but they're not butt ugly, either. But, this is neither here nor there... -Worlds and Monsters!
Alediran 02-03-08, 01:12 PM	Sure there are many native slang words and phase usages that are different (as well as the local accents). But it's all still Spanish. Chinese and Japanese on the other hand, are totally different languages (even though Kanji is based off of Chinese calligraphy). No, Argentina's Spanish is WAY different from other Spanish versions, it's a merge of Spanish and Italian. Granted, I can understand Spain's spanish easier than most argentinians because I have a couple friends from Barcelona. We have a complete alternative slang language caled Lunfago that combines Italian words and reconstructed words in spanish, it's used as slang in the military army because nobody else in the world speaks Lunfago, during the war with England in Malvinas the english army had many radio controlers who speak spanish but could never crack Lunfago.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 01:14 PM	Hmm, where did the Italian creep in? I know many germans fled to Argentina after WW2 but I don't recall Italians.
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 01:19 PM	Hmm, where did the Italian creep in? I know many germans fled to Argentina after WW2 but I don't recall Italians. -It was partially settled by Italians, as well as the Dutch, and a few other states. Argentina is really as racially heterogenious as Brazil is.
Alediran 02-03-08, 01:20 PM	Italian and Spanish inmigrants composed the vast majority of early Argentina's population.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 01:21 PM	-It was partially settled by Italians, as well as the Dutch, and a few other states. Argentina is really as racially heterogenious as Brazil is. Hmm, now that's something I didn't know.
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 01:25 PM	-A friend of mine recently went there, and Chile. A nice place. I think I might add Buenos Aires/Argentina to the list of places I want to go to before I die, along with Israel, Japan and Spain. -The more you know. Goooo, Joe!
XHereticX 02-03-08, 01:30 PM	-A friend of mine recently went there, and Chile. A nice place. I think I might add Buenos Aires/Argentina to the list of places I want to go to before I die, along with Israel, Japan and Spain. -The more you know. Goooo, Joe! Hmm, the Pampas would be a nice place to visit.
MarkusTay63 02-03-08, 03:24 PM	I thought Argentina was composed of Spanish, native Indians, and Nazis. :P
XHereticX 02-03-08, 04:50 PM	I thought Argentina was composed of Spanich, native Indians, and Nazis. :P Yes, yes, it has all that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonia_Dignidad
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 12:18 AM	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonia_Dignidad -Ah, I see that place was shut down. I remember seeing a History Channel program about it, though at the time of the show, it was still operating and everything. I guess we can all breathe a little easier now.
Alediran 02-04-08, 07:27 AM	If somebody comes to Buenos Aires just tell me and I can be your guide.
18DELTA 02-04-08, 03:27 PM	If somebody comes to Buenos Aires just tell me and I can be your guide. -When is CARNIVAL? When HOT women :dancin: in the streets!!!:D 18DELTA:)
Alediran 02-05-08, 06:57 AM	Every day you can see hot women. I was going to work yesterday and I saw this model (it's my favourite) crossing the street at my side. http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/celebs/ingridgrudke/ingrid_grudke_10.jpg
Hawkfeather 02-05-08, 07:25 AM	-When is CARNIVAL? When HOT women :dancin: in the streets!!!:D 18DELTA:) Here in Brazil, Carnival it's happening RIGHT NOW! :D
GothicDan 02-05-08, 07:31 AM	It is? Oh snap. Time to make fun of my Brazilian friend.
Alediran 02-05-08, 07:43 AM	Hurry up because today is the last day.
Hawkfeather 02-05-08, 08:13 AM	I had to finish my MSc thesis during this carnival... No party for me :(
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-05-08, 02:40 PM	Wow, That is sad....
MarkusTay63 02-05-08, 11:39 PM	Every day you can see hot women. I was going to work yesterday and I saw this model (it's my favourite) crossing the street at my side. http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/celebs/ingridgrudke/ingrid_grudke_10.jpgIs she sick? :confused: I guess you guys don't pay your models much - it looks like she hasn't eaten in quite some time. :rolleyes: Tell her if she packs on 30-40 lbs, she can give me a call. :P
XHereticX 02-06-08, 07:44 PM	-Ah, I see that place was shut down. I remember seeing a History Channel program about it, though at the time of the show, it was still operating and everything. I guess we can all breathe a little easier now. Watch out, they might still throw you in the well:D Yeah, I watched a Discovery Program that had details about the place and it scared the **** out of me.
Alediran 02-06-08, 08:40 PM	Is she sick? :confused: I guess you guys don't pay your models much - it looks like she hasn't eaten in quite some time. :rolleyes: Tell her if she packs on 30-40 lbs, she can give me a call. :P Not at all, that isn't one of her best pictures. I weight 120 lbs more or less. We have meat of every taste: http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:0BoYArx7VZcg9M:http://bp0.blogger.com/_uM0w1tnSwO8/RnXnx5zqSQI/AAAAAAAAHPY/IL-alWWvyLY/s320/pamela3.jpg http://www.sobrelatele.com.ar/showmatch/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/victoria-vanucci.jpg http://desavio.webcindario.com/Luciana%20salazar%201.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:2aaLVk9iK_Y3ZM:http://bp0.blogger.com/_qI-X7SaThsU/RrUU0IqlnPI/AAAAAAAAA24/bXd50rwzuxg/s400/Sofia-Zamolo-03.jpg And those are the light pictures, there are heavier ones.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-06-08, 09:08 PM	estan mas o menos pero no me gustan las rubias (usualmente :D)
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 12:37 AM	We have meat of every taste: -Damn, I am hungry, and I thought you were going to be posting pictures of good Argentinian food. estan mas o menos pero no me gustan las rubias (usualmente :D) -Hmm...How's my spanish? I like to make sure it's not too rusty. "That's more or less it, but you don't like blondes...usually."
Alediran 02-07-08, 07:14 AM	-Damn, I am hungry, and I thought you were going to be posting pictures of good Argentinian food. I hope you dont freak when you see Cow insides being cooked, the sweedish wife of a distant cousin who lives in the USA freaked when my father told her what she was eating, after she said it was good tasting :P Parrilla: http://www.musicfrontiers.com/upimages/RES_25263Brigada2.jpg Locro: http://www.femenino.info/wp-content/uploads/locro.jpg Asado being cooked: http://www.femenino.info/wp-content/uploads/asado.jpg Cordero (lamb) patagonico (where I lived most of my life): http://www.nutricion.pro/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/cordero-patagonico.jpg (it's one of my favorites) Dulce de Leche (very slowly cooking Milk with sugar is the way to do it): http://bp2.blogger.com/_MbpZ44iWpr0/Rvw0T93JSfI/AAAAAAAAAT4/eNpH2OU-ZBU/s400/dulce-de-leche.jpg -Hmm...How's my spanish? I like to make sure it's not too rusty. "That's more or less it, but you don't like blondes...usually." Pretty good. the "mas o menos" is an expression that doesn't has direct translation. It's meaning is neiter bad nor good for the described object.
msatran 02-07-08, 12:19 PM	Plus, Argentinian beef is really awesome. There used to be a place in Madison, NJ where I could get free Range Argentine beef, but it's a trek.
Alediran 02-07-08, 01:06 PM	There is a chain of Restaurants called Siga la Vaca (Follow the Cow) where you can eat everything you want (Cow, Pig, Chicken, salads, ham, cheese, a couple argentinian cold foods and more), for the small price of 15 dollars. It includes drink (alcohol, Coke, Sprite, Water), the food and desert. A link to the picture's gallery: http://www.sigalavaca.com/index.php?sec=menu&lng=es. I'll go lunch, the pictures made me hungry.
MarkusTay63 02-07-08, 01:12 PM	I don't think the name of the restaurant would work in America (it insinuates that we are all cows, which most of are, but we don't want to hear it). Besides, we already got those, but we call them buffets. ;) I suppose Sizzler might be an American 'Follow the Cow'. :P
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 01:41 PM	Parrilla: http://www.musicfrontiers.com/upimages/RES_25263Brigada2.jpg -Mmm... Asado being cooked: http://www.femenino.info/wp-content/uploads/asado.jpg -Mmm... Cordero (lamb) patagonico (where I lived most of my life): http://www.nutricion.pro/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/cordero-patagonico.jpg (it's one of my favorites) -Mmm... -I love Portugese food, and I don't think Argentinian food is much different. There is this restaurant in Jersey with some great Portugese food...Mmmm.....
XHereticX 02-09-08, 10:48 AM	Damn it Alediran, you're making me hungry.:P Cuban food is pretty good too, I had some down in Miami.