| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Mr_Miscellany12-26-07, 01:21 AM | ...just got my grubby little hands on this book. If anyone has questions they'd like answered, drop a line in this here thread and I'll do my best to respond. :cool: |
| Hanali-in-Love12-26-07, 01:26 AM | ...just got my grubby little hands on this book. If anyone has questions they'd like answered, drop a line in this here thread and I'll do my best to respond. :cool: How many paper bags do I need to throw up in? Can you give us a pro's and con's summary? We don't have that yet here in Paris. |
| johnkretzer12-26-07, 02:21 AM | How many paper bags do I need to throw up in? Can you give us a pro's and con's summary? We don't have that yet here in Paris. If Mr. Misc. is willing to give his I'll be happy to do the same and give a second opinion...(I don't know I got a feeling we probablt see some things very differently). But I won't post them here unless he is willing. |
| Redrake12-26-07, 02:26 AM | What's the worst class and the worst race in your opinion?;) |
| sfdragon12-26-07, 02:32 AM | are mythral armors still around and what do they do? |
| Lord Karsus12-26-07, 07:26 AM | -What the hell is the book about? Is it a 4e preview book, or a discussion of the races/classes that have been, and thoughts and discussions about 'em all? Sometimes, it sounds one way, and then sometimes the other. |
| BadCatMan12-26-07, 07:43 AM | Is it really just a glorified advertisement pamphlet for 4th Edition? And the obligatory: Does it say anything the Forgotten Realms? |
| Rauric12-26-07, 08:06 AM | To me it is a preview book so I won't buy it. I do appreciate your info offer Mr. Misc. Since we see things the same when it comes to 4E what are some of the interesting things they have done with the races classes? Does it mention spells at all? |
| GreenKnight12-26-07, 08:38 AM | I'm interested in any and every scrap of information the book has about Humans, Dragonborn, Paladins, Tieflings, and Warlocks. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-26-07, 11:49 AM | I'm reluctant to buy this book because it is as was said a preview/advertisement (and I'm running out of space for books to begin with!), but if the book has great artwork I might shell out for it. Might. I like everything I've heard so far about the 4E concepts and I would use them in a setting that was designed specifically for them. Greenknight, not to steal Mr. Miscellany's thunder, but there is an informative dragonborn thread in the 4E "Races" forum. |
| Green Elven Vampire12-26-07, 02:43 PM | Another money grubbing advertising pamphlet for 4ED. Am I the only one who sees this as a desperate 4ED attempt to fool people into spending more money? |
| johnkretzer12-26-07, 03:11 PM | For those going to the FR-NJ-CC meeting on Jan.5th I'll bring along my copy to share...I spent alot of money on it(yes 20$ was definitly overprice for it) so I probably should share it freely with as many people I can. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-26-07, 03:31 PM | For those going to the FR-NJ-CC meeting on Jan.5th I'll bring along my copy to share...I spent alot of money on it(yes 20$ was definitly overprice for it) so I probably should share it freely with as many people I can. Wow, that's nice of you, thanks! |
| msatran12-26-07, 04:47 PM | I'll bring mine too so that we can commiserate and have more than one copy. Making someone pay 20 dollars for an advertisement is despicable in general. That's like making someone pay for a salesman to sell you a car. And trust me. I AM a salesman. This does NOT sell the actual product because it contains NO rules. It only contains more flavor, which I already don't like. The truth is, I think they still don't actually HAVE any mechanics. They're still testing everything, and I think that if they did have something, they would have been eager to show it. This is how retail companies work. If they have something, they WANT to show it to you. Therefore, they don't have anything. |
| Green Elven Vampire12-26-07, 06:12 PM | How many paper bags do I need to throw up in? Can you give us a pro's and con's summary? We don't have that yet here in Paris. Just get one paper bag, throw $20.00 into it and throw up in the bag and you'll have your product. And if you don't have it in Paris yet, then it certainly shows the French have good taste alongside their culture, cuisine and sexual liberty. ;) :cool: |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-26-07, 06:29 PM | I'll bring mine too so that we can commiserate and have more than one copy. Thank you!:) |
| MerrikCale12-26-07, 08:56 PM | Just get one paper bag, throw $20.00 into it and throw up in the bag and you'll have your product. And if you don't have it in Paris yet, then it certainly shows the French have good taste alongside their culture, cuisine and sexual liberty. ;) :cool: I rather enjoyed it myself |
| Storm_Silverhand12-26-07, 09:02 PM | Heya, Here's my question, Mr Misc... Is it a worthwhile book to purchase, given that I'm pretty much already sold on 4e (just not 4e Realms) already? |
| 18DELTA12-26-07, 10:29 PM | Heya, Here's my question, Mr Misc... Is it a worthwhile book to purchase, given that I'm pretty much already sold on 4e (just not 4e Realms) already? I got the book. I think its pretty good IMHO. Some of the sidebars have info on how and why some things are changing. I like that WotC is trying to balance the Races & Classes against one another. YMMV.:) |
| WizO_Keldar12-26-07, 11:36 PM | This thread is to discuss and ask/answer questions about the Races and Classes book. Please refrain from posting for the sole purpose of criticizing and accusing WotC of bad practices. Thanks. |
| GothicDan12-26-07, 11:45 PM | Or good practices, I would assume. That's nontopical, too, right? ;) |
| Lord Karsus12-26-07, 11:56 PM | -But, of course Dan. -You know what? I'm going to the bookstore tomorrow to pick up something for somebody anyway, so, if it's there, I might flip through it, see what it's about. Chances are, I'm not going to buy it, but at least I'll feel like I'm in the loop again. -And, technically, this entire thread should be moved, as it is not FR specific. But, just sayin'... |
| GothicDan12-27-07, 12:11 AM | That made me laugh. Hard. No more off-topic posts from me. :) |
| Mr_Miscellany12-27-07, 12:18 AM | John: Go ahead and post. It’s all good. Anyone else that has the book: Feel free also if you were holding back The more the merrier! :::::::::::: Only through page 20 so far (not all D&D players read books like lightening) so quick and to the point. Only answering what I can reliably at this point. Lord Karsus: It’s a true preview book that covers the new races and the new PHB classes we'll see in May 2008, minus any rules. Races: Humans, Dragonborn, Dwarves, Elves, Eladrins, Elves, Halflings, Tieflings, Other Races (Celestials, Drow, Gnomes [poor, poor Gnomes], Warforged). Classes: Clerics, Fighters, Rogues, Warlocks, Wizards, Other Classes (Barbarians, Bards, Druids, Monks, Paladins, Rangers, Sorcerers, Swordmages, Warlords). The three tiers of adventure are covered (Herioc, Paragon and Epic, along with Paragon Paths and Destinies --haven't read much on these yet, either). It’s meant to be a sort of sneak peek into WotC’s R&D department also. All the ‘names’ are found therein and contribute to the book (Slavicsek, Heinsoo, Longstreet, O’Connor, Collins, Baker, Mearls, Thompson ...keep reading... Cordell, Sernett, Bonner, Wyatt, Kestrel, Sims, Reeve, Noonan, Perkins, Schubert, Radney-MacFarland) BadCatMan: Nothing about the Realms so far. Though I hope the Worlds and Monsters preview book drops a hint. There’s actual useful design information in there. I’d buy it only if you’re interested in learning about 4E’s design history and what WotC’s goals are for players in 4E. msatran: WotC has mechanics. Has had them for a couple years, actually. Storm Silverhand: So far, yeah I’d say buy it. But I’ll try and tell more once I read more. Some other things: WotC Designers and Developers have titles that read like levels: From plain old designer/developer, to “Advanced”, to “Senior”. The credits just read kind of funny to me that way. WotC’s The Book of Nine Swords was a proto 4th Edition book. Much of its rules material was culled from what was called Orcus 1 --a first attempt at building a new rules-set for D&D. And (for those that didn’t know) the Star Wars Roleplaying Game: Saga Edition was, “...an early testing ground for many of the concepts that eventually made their way into the 4th Edition of D&D.” In the process of choosing what would become the Iconic Races, Rich Baker counted over 135 available PC races, from what was made available to players in WotC’s 3E products, including FR and Eberron (but excluding Dragon Magazine, Savage Spieces and all other monsters with a level adjustment). That includes, “...11 races of elves.” -- cue complaints about Star Elves here. ;) Mike Mearls’ comments about Power Sources scare me. His first comment, “Power sources have always been in D&D, but no one ever bothered to pay attention to them. From the earliest days of the game, it was clear that wizards (then called magic-users) tapped into a different source of magic than clerics. ....4th Edition makes the move to create more vivid differences between the sources of magical power” Is this why they blew up the Weave? And if yes, what the hell for? If anything, the Realms already shows how the Weave acts (well, acted) as a conduit for everything from arcane magic, to divine magic, to psionics, to badass drow fighters that suck away their own vitality to keep kicking ass (see War of the Spider Queen series, which also shows Salvatore and company were paying attention too). Does it really take away from 4E’s shine to say it all is sourced through the Weave? Ah well, maybe I’m jumping to conclusions. Anyway, I know this isn't much, but I'll post more as soon as I can. Thank you all for responding. |
| Green Elven Vampire12-27-07, 01:11 AM | This thread is to discuss and ask/answer questions about the Races and Classes book. Isn't that what we're all doing? Please refrain from posting for the sole purpose of criticizing and accusing WotC of bad practices. Thanks. I don't believe it was for a sole purpose. ;) :D |
| Lord Karsus12-27-07, 01:16 AM | Lord Karsus: It’s a true preview book that covers the new races and the new PHB classes we'll see in May 2008, minus any rules. -Gotcha. That includes, “...11 races of elves.” -- cue complaints about Star Elves here. ;) -We don't complain about the existence of Star Elves, per se. We complain about the way the entire thing was handled- "Sure, they were always there. What, there's no lore about 'em? Eh, oh well." Now that there's more and more lore about Star Elves, I'm starting to warm up to them a bit. Is this why they blew up the Weave? And if yes, what the hell for? If anything, the Realms already shows how the Weave acts (well, acted) as a conduit for everything from arcane magic, to divine magic, to psionics, to badass drow fighters that suck away their own vitality to keep kicking ass (see War of the Spider Queen series, which also shows Salvatore and company were paying attention too). Does it really take away from 4E’s shine to say it all is sourced through the Weave? -Chris Perkins has said that the change from the current magic casting rules to the new magic casting rules is the reason for destroying Mystra and the Weave. I agree that is was very much a "what the hell for" action, since the Weave is mostly there for "aesthetic appeal"- as in, it has no real impact on the rules of D&D itself. -In my opinion, there is no reason why the Weave couldn't have been changed, not eliminated to reflect the new D&D rules. The lack of True 10+ Level spells , Epic Spells, and such were handled in such a way. All Mystra did was change the way the Weave worked, and presto! Given a in-game reason, there is no reason why this couldn't have been done again. |
| Hanali-in-Love12-27-07, 01:25 AM | - -Chris Perkins has said that the change from the current magic casting rules to the new magic casting rules is the reason for destroying Mystra and the Weave. I agree that is was very much a "what the hell for" action, since the Weave is mostly there for "aesthetic appeal"- as in, it has no real impact on the rules of D&D itself. -In my opinion, there is no reason why the Weave couldn't have been changed, not eliminated to reflect the new D&D rules. The lack of True 10+ Level spells , Epic Spells, and such were handled in such a way. All Mystra did was change the way the Weave worked, and presto! Given a in-game reason, there is no reason why this couldn't have been done again. Hence, the lack of thinking things out by designers. |
| Stigger12-27-07, 04:21 AM | Well, if SW: Saga was the prototype, I'm definitely looking forward to the new ruleset. Not terribly sure about some of the stuff in there, but its nothing a teensy bit of houseruling can't fix. Though I'm still far, far, far from sold that the 4e Realms is going to be something I'm even remotely interested in thus far. Any indications as to how severe the changes to the wizard class are going to be, or hints at how they work in 4e? It sounded pretty interesting according to Shelly's last article that I read, so I'm getting kinda hungry for more on it. |
| johnkretzer12-27-07, 06:55 AM | Heya, Here's my question, Mr Misc... Is it a worthwhile book to purchase, given that I'm pretty much already sold on 4e (just not 4e Realms) already? I would suggest if you belong to a group for the group to share it...both the book and the price. |
| Diffan12-27-07, 09:30 AM | Any indications as to how severe the changes to the wizard class are going to be, or hints at how they work in 4e? It sounded pretty interesting according to Shelly's last article that I read, so I'm getting kinda hungry for more on it. From what I've read we know it's going to be an at will, per encounter, per day system. It was also mentioned that arcane spellcasters won't truly run out of spells. This makes me think along the lines of the newer [Reserve] feats featured in Complete Mage. By holding onto a spell of higher level, you can mimic (to some degree) the effect of the spell with lesser variations and effects. *Shruggs*, it's a thought. |
| Stigger12-27-07, 09:34 AM | I got that from Shelly's article actually, and I was thinking of the reserve feat thing myself, but it doesn't really seem to fit unless its a talent tree thing, presuming those are going to be used. Was more hoping for some indication of how those per/whatever things were going to be organized, and some indication/clue of what the spell lists for them looked like. |
| Reneshat12-27-07, 10:18 AM | I got it from my girlfriend for Christmas because I wanted it, but I didn't think it was worth 20 bucks. Apparently it's easier to justify buying something overpriced if it's a gift. That being said, I'm really glad I got it, and I am really enjoying it. I've gotten through the development background section and the races, but I haven't really gotten anywhere on the class section yet. All this stuff, as it would form a core world for 4ed D&D, I really like. My favorite parts so far are the discussions of the various artists and art teams on developing individual and easily recognizable styles of weapons and armor. In the book dwarven armor is different from human armor, which is different from elven armor, which is different from tiefling armor. Also they include a full Runic alphabet set for both dwarves and elves/eladrin for the core 4ed world. I really like the idea of Dragonborn as presented, and I think it has a lot of possibility, however not quite so happy about the promotion of tieflings, and especially unhappy about their justification and the reasoning behind leaving aasimar behind. Halflings are now a race of river rafting kender/gypsies. The last vestiges of hobbits have been discarded completely. A lot of the classes I wanted info on don't get complete write-ups. They have fighters, rogues, warlocks and wizards. There doesn't seem to be an easy answer on how they are going to incorporate a lot of this stuff into the Realms however. They might have more on that in the next book that coming out, or we just might have to wait until we get more information from the Realms development team. note: I did like the art. |
| msatran12-27-07, 10:33 AM | From what I've read we know it's going to be an at will, per encounter, per day system. It was also mentioned that arcane spellcasters won't truly run out of spells. This makes me think along the lines of the newer [Reserve] feats featured in Complete Mage. By holding onto a spell of higher level, you can mimic (to some degree) the effect of the spell with lesser variations and effects. *Shruggs*, it's a thought. So...can anyone tell me why this is a good change? This encourages incompetence on the part of gamers. Resource management has been eliminated from the game. No longer will the wizard think about whether the best tactical choice is to do nothing. No longer will the cleric have to think about whether to heal, buff, or do something else entirely. I hate it when they remove tactical choices from the game, and eliminate all but the most basic idea of threats. I shudder to think about what I will have to do to run this and challenge my upper level intellect players. |
| MarkusTay6312-27-07, 10:44 AM | Charging $20 dollars for a preview rubs me the wrong way - sorry. Its like an amusement park charging for parking, or company charging you for it's catalogue - it's just a cheap and inconsiderate way of generating extra revenue. I'll pass. :( |
| MerrikCale12-27-07, 11:06 AM | --We don't complain about the existence of Star Elves, per se. I complain about their existence |
| Diffan12-27-07, 11:36 AM | So...can anyone tell me why this is a good change? This encourages incompetence on the part of gamers. Resource management has been eliminated from the game. No longer will the wizard think about whether the best tactical choice is to do nothing. No longer will the cleric have to think about whether to heal, buff, or do something else entirely. I hate it when they remove tactical choices from the game, and eliminate all but the most basic idea of threats. I shudder to think about what I will have to do to run this and challenge my upper level intellect players. It's a good change because after one big encounter, the next one your wizard won't suck and spend his lazy arse time pickin his nose and leaving the melee guys to do the heavy lifting. I'm not saying the new way is allowing the wizard to have unlimited fireballs/disintegration/finger of death spells but maybe at highter levels, at will: magic missile or at lower levels: at will acid splash will be there. It's not having to rely on that crossbow your not good at using anyway to begin with. Spell preparation has, 1st and foremost, been the biggest "management" requirement for the wizard and I'm assuming it still will be. Your characters won't have to rest every darn encounter for x amount of hours to replenish his spells because that's all he has to bring to the table AND it promotes multiple encounters per day without expending too many of those "oh so precious" resources. Multipul encounters = more monsters/traps/etc = more playing and XP and thus (usually) more fun. And if anything, they're bringing MORE tactical choices into the game, and not just for the spellcasters. I can't tell you how many times it gets kinda boring when the fighter's only decision is "hmm, well Power Attack is fun, and well, IF i hit, i might be able to cleave...*ponders*..." turn after turn after turn... If it weren't for Tactical feats and the excessive need for the melee guy at early levels, I'd never play one. |
| Reneshat12-27-07, 12:11 PM | It's a good change because after one big encounter, the next one your wizard won't suck and spend his lazy arse time pickin his nose and leaving the melee guys to do the heavy lifting. I'm not saying the new way is allowing the wizard to have unlimited fireballs/disintegration/finger of death spells but maybe at highter levels, at will: magic missile or at lower levels: at will acid splash will be there. It's not having to rely on that crossbow your not good at using anyway to begin with. Spell preparation has, 1st and foremost, been the biggest "management" requirement for the wizard and I'm assuming it still will be. Your characters won't have to rest every darn encounter for x amount of hours to replenish his spells because that's all he has to bring to the table AND it promotes multiple encounters per day without expending too many of those "oh so precious" resources. Maybe I'm a bit of a jerk when it comes to this, but if your wizard is dumb enough to expend all of his big bang spells in one encounter, then he deserves to have to sit on his hands for the rest of the day. If the party decides to rest in the dungeon, they should have all sorts of problems during the night, and the wizard should not get a good night's sleep to replace this spells. If they decide to leave, they should come back to a place where the inhabitants had an entire night to get ready for them. I don't mind idea of a basic arcane blast technique, usable at will, touch attack, 30 foot range, SR applies, starts off at 1d6, moves up to 2d6 at level 5, 3d6 at level 10, etc to max at 5d6 at level 20. I never really liked the idea of wizards using crossbows to be honest. I love the idea of possible foci for wizards, though I would use them as an either/or option with familiars. However when it comes to resource management, I think when you have somebody like my friend playing a spellcaster, and he's stupid enough to blow all of his spells, the party deserves to live with the consequences, even if that means that my character dies as well, when it wasn't even my mistake. (This of course happened right after a fight we had about me spending a couple rounds doing nothing, because there wasn't a good reason to cast one of my spells. My unspent spells are the only reason we didn't die in the second fight right after he blew all of his spells.) |
| Green Elven Vampire12-27-07, 01:50 PM | Whenever I play a spell caster PC I always use my lowest level spells to get through an encounter depending on the situation at hand. If a wizard or cleric runs out of spells then it's their own fault. If you encounter 20 bugbears you don't throw a meteor swarm at them, you cast Sleep or Rainbow Pattern on them and save the more powerful spells for more serious threats. Most spell casters shouldn't even run out of spells during a battle if they know how to play their class. Having a extended spell supply in 4ED beyond the normal allotment is just broken! |
| msatran12-27-07, 01:59 PM | Maybe I'm a bit of a jerk when it comes to this, but if your wizard is dumb enough to expend all of his big bang spells in one encounter, then he deserves to have to sit on his hands for the rest of the day. If the party decides to rest in the dungeon, they should have all sorts of problems during the night, and the wizard should not get a good night's sleep to replace this spells. If they decide to leave, they should come back to a place where the inhabitants had an entire night to get ready for them. I don't mind idea of a basic arcane blast technique, usable at will, touch attack, 30 foot range, SR applies, starts off at 1d6, moves up to 2d6 at level 5, 3d6 at level 10, etc to max at 5d6 at level 20. I never really liked the idea of wizards using crossbows to be honest. I love the idea of possible foci for wizards, though I would use them as an either/or option with familiars. However when it comes to resource management, I think when you have somebody like my friend playing a spellcaster, and he's stupid enough to blow all of his spells, the party deserves to live with the consequences, even if that means that my character dies as well, when it wasn't even my mistake. (This of course happened right after a fight we had about me spending a couple rounds doing nothing, because there wasn't a good reason to cast one of my spells. My unspent spells are the only reason we didn't die in the second fight right after he blew all of his spells.) This is awesome, and also correct. This is why I also try to memorize a good mix of spells. Not everything needs to be oriented towards combat. Don't be afraid to exhaust your expendable items. The Wizard or Cleric is their own best resource. Often, those wands and potions of curing are much better used at the beginning. |
| Lord Karsus12-27-07, 02:43 PM | I complain about their existence -Most of my posts come with the clause "except for Merrik". This is one of those times. ;) Often, those wands and potions of curing are much better used at the beginning. -Definitley. Wands of Cure Light Wounds are probably the biggest bargain in the entire game. -Oh, and I agree that if a magic-using character wastes all of his/her spells at once, "Oh well, too bad". |
| johnkretzer12-27-07, 03:31 PM | Quick reaction to it as I have things that need to be done. I'll probably post a more elaborate view of things later this weekend. Overall it was not as bad as I thought it would be....which if you read my other posts about 4th edition is a big step. Anyway some problems I had... 1) The general idea of if it doesn't give a mechanical bonus to your character your concept is of minor importance. 2) The last paragraph in the Clerics section I find pretty much insulting. I really wished they would stop with the 'if you liked 3.x over 4th edition you are a power gamer' advertisement line. 3) Who is this Logan Bonner? How did he get his job to help improve on the old rules if he doesn't even know those rules? 4) The new Skill system I am thinking is a giant step back. I don't mind them uniting some skills( like Spot and listen or Hide and move silently) but from the feeling I am getting they are going too far with this. Also I love skill points removing them from the game is a giant mistake. 5) Their main catch phase is to make things simpler...yet every class is going to have it own unique power souce that works differently then anybody elses...and have their own spells or powers...How is this simpler from a gamer's view? Or even from a designer's view? 6) There is nothing I really liked with what they are doing with the races. I don't feel high elves(moon elves) really fit in with elves or eldarin well. Halflings as swamp dwellers boat people makes little sense to me. I disagree in bringing dwarves to the surface and the 'reasons' they give for it. Tieflings...are not even close to 2nd or 3rd edition Tieflings...which is sad for me because I really liked the that flavor for tieflings(and the abilities they give). Humens are going to get dramatic abilities to make up for other races advantages...so what are humen the only people who go though life with author fiat? Dragonborn I just don't like dragons like creature being common...it cheapens real dragon for me( yes I hated this trend in 3.x as well). Now that being said I would have readily accept these changes if it was in their own campaign world and not core. The more I read the more it seems to me that I and the designbers play a very different game. It is just that every change or improvement...are to things I liked or never had issues with before. |
| Lord Karsus12-27-07, 03:42 PM | 2) The last paragraph in the Clerics section I find pretty much insulting. I really wished they would stop with the 'if you liked 3.x over 4th edition you are a power gamer' advertisement line. -Most 4e "advertising" isn't explaining the benefits/pros of 4e, but is knocking 3e, and all previous editions, and all of the problems they've had. That "frenchman" video comes to mind, with 'THAC0' and 'Grapple'. Basically, if you don't like 4e, you are faulty. That's what it comes down to. 3) Who is this Logan Bonner? How did he get his job to help improve on the old rules if he doesn't even know those rules? -Sometimes bringing in "fresh" experience helps, I guess. From a person who is used to the current rules, or whatever, some things might make sense. To someone who isn't, it's probably easier to identify problems that we might not notice. |
| msatran12-27-07, 05:10 PM | As a friend of mine just put it... This Dwarf Armor seems familiar. All you need is a big boxy lion headed helmet, and he looks like... VOLTRON, DEFENDER OF THE UNIVERSE! Now, I know that a lot of us pine for the days of Planet Doom, myself included, but don't you think, Wizards, that this is going a little far? |
| 18DELTA12-27-07, 05:17 PM | From what I've read we know it's going to be an at will, per encounter, per day system. It was also mentioned that arcane spellcasters won't truly run out of spells. This makes me think along the lines of the newer [Reserve] feats featured in Complete Mage. By holding onto a spell of higher level, you can mimic (to some degree) the effect of the spell with lesser variations and effects. *Shruggs*, it's a thought. You are so right. Reserve feats were foreshadowing 4E. You wont need the spell to power it. It will be an at will ability. Meta-Magic is no more. The schools of magic are gone. Divination Spells are mostly going to be what are now called rituals. Teleport is a ritual. Mind affects are going to be Psionic in 4E. Item-Creation is a Ritual. Spellcasters start will with Rituals for creating magic-items, and gain more as they level up. Polymorph will be seperate spell(Polymorph Sub-School anyone) SUMMONING WILL BE IN A LATER SUPPLEMENT!:( |
| Green Elven Vampire12-27-07, 05:26 PM | You are so right. Reserve feats were foreshadowing 4E. You wont need the spell to power it. It will be an at will ability. Meta-Magic is no more. The schools of magic are gone. Divination Spells are mostly going to be what are now called rituals. Teleport is a ritual. Mind affects are going to be Psionic in 4E. Item-Creation is a Ritual. Spellcasters start will with Rituals for creating magic-items, and gain more as they level up. Polymorph will be seperate spell(Polymorph Sub-School anyone) SUMMONING WILL BE IN A LATER SUPPLEMENT!:( And this is why I say Die 4ED DIE!!! It's broken and has no place in the Realms. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-27-07, 06:28 PM | 6) There is nothing I really liked with what they are doing with the races. I don't feel high elves(moon elves) really fit in with elves or eldarin well. Halflings as swamp dwellers boat people makes little sense to me. I disagree in bringing dwarves to the surface and the 'reasons' they give for it. Tieflings...are not even close to 2nd or 3rd edition Tieflings...which is sad for me because I really liked the that flavor for tieflings(and the abilities they give). Humens are going to get dramatic abilities to make up for other races advantages...so what are humen the only people who go though life with author fiat? Dragonborn I just don't like dragons like creature being common...it cheapens real dragon for me( yes I hated this trend in 3.x as well). Now that being said I would have readily accept these changes if it was in their own campaign world and not core. I like the new racial ideas...but only in a setting that is designed for them. I would not shoehorn these concepts into a setting that they don't belong in. |
| Diffan12-27-07, 07:18 PM | You are so right. Reserve feats were foreshadowing 4E. You wont need the spell to power it. It will be an at will ability. Meta-Magic is no more. The schools of magic are gone. Divination Spells are mostly going to be what are now called rituals. Teleport is a ritual. Mind affects are going to be Psionic in 4E. Item-Creation is a Ritual. Spellcasters start will with Rituals for creating magic-items, and gain more as they level up. Polymorph will be seperate spell(Polymorph Sub-School anyone) SUMMONING WILL BE IN A LATER SUPPLEMENT! With the spell levels going highter than 9th, I'm guessing that's the reason they took away meta-magic. The schools of magic being done away with I'm not sure I like, but I'll wait'n'see. I like the idea of Div spells being called rituals, but teleportation a ritual? The idea of rituals sounds like it takes time and elaborate chalk designes on the floor with candles and incense, so how will that effect combat oriented teleport spells like dimension hop and dimension door? Also, I hear that magic-item creation won't require XP. Thank GOD! That was probably the most stupidest thing I hated about 3ED. That and the fact that calculating the base price for your magic item was like such a pain in the rear. I'm getting more intrugued by the day for 4ED! And this is why I say Die 4ED DIE!!! It's broken and has no place in the Realms. Just because it's new or different, doesn't mean it's broken. How can you form an educated opinion about something when you haven't even seen it's final product? I'm sure 4ED will be well balanced, maybe more so than 3.x or earlier editions. So far, I've liked many supplements that came out recently like the Tome of Battle, Complete Mage, and Complete Champion. They are all precursors (in their own way) to 4th. |
| Stigger12-27-07, 07:18 PM | I'm personally looking forward to the new system for spellcasters and skills. I can't say I was ever much of a fan for limited magic, much less Vancian spellcasting. To my mind, the only difference that should be there between a high and low level wizard or cleric is one of magnitude of spells available. One of the many reasons I loved the OWoD Magic system for Mage. If I had to make a guess, I'd say metamagic was still in there, but more likely its going to be in as a Talent Tree for a PrC or something, at least if SW:Saga is any indication. |
| Green Elven Vampire12-27-07, 07:56 PM | Just because it's new or different, doesn't mean it's broken. How can you form an educated opinion about something when you haven't even seen it's final product? I'm sure 4ED will be well balanced, maybe more so than 3.x or earlier editions. So far, I've liked many supplements that came out recently like the Tome of Battle, Complete Mage, and Complete Champion. They are all precursors (in their own way) to 4th. I'm not saying it is broken because it's new or different. From what we have available so far, the whole magic item/spell casting system is broken in the sense that every wizard/ sorcerer/ bard and cleric is being told that for years and years (and in the case of elves, hundreds of years) they have been casting spells wrong and that their magic items aren't what they thought they were, and that Specialist wizards were never really specialist wizards cause there are no sub-schools of magic. It's a joke, and I'm not laughing. |
| MerrikCale12-27-07, 08:27 PM | -Most of my posts come with the clause "except for Merrik". This is one of those times. ;) Thats probably a good policy I do think Star Elves are dumb in concept, design and execution |
| Hanali-in-Love12-27-07, 08:59 PM | Just get one paper bag, throw $20.00 into it and throw up in the bag and you'll have your product. And if you don't have it in Paris yet, then it certainly shows the French have good taste alongside their culture, cuisine and sexual liberty. ;) :cool: That's wonderful. :rofl: :rofl: :heehee |
| Diffan12-27-07, 09:56 PM | I'm not saying it is broken because it's new or different. From what we have available so far, the whole magic item/spell casting system is broken in the sense that every wizard/ sorcerer/ bard and cleric is being told that for years and years (and in the case of elves, hundreds of years) they have been casting spells wrong and that their magic items aren't what they thought they were, and that Specialist wizards were never really specialist wizards cause there are no sub-schools of magic. It's a joke, and I'm not laughing. So your saying that DnD should NEVER change mechanics at all, ever. To do so would mean that the whole system before hand was wrong. :rolleyes: What about the Sphere's and level caps of 2nd/Adnd? What about the drastic changes between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd? There have been many, THAC0 being just one point. So every edition previous to the one before was wrong and the newer edition is broken. With that kind of thinking, DnD would've probably died out long before. The reason it's done so well is because it changes, evolves, and becomes something different (usually better) than before. Will 4ED be perfect? Probably not, though I'm willing to bet, mechanics wise, it'll be as easy and maybe more fun to play than 3rd, 2nd, or 1st. Though your entitled to your own opinions, and they're not without merit, but I for one hope you do keep playing in 3rd or which ever edition your heart desiers and leave 4th to the open-minded individuals who see the new edition as an opportuinity for gaming fun and not some malevolent monster which needs to be stopped. |
| GothicDan12-27-07, 10:25 PM | -Oh, and I agree that if a magic-using character wastes all of his/her spells at once, "Oh well, too bad". Seconded. Thirded. Whatever. So your saying that DnD should NEVER change mechanics at all, ever. To do so would mean that the whole system before hand was wrong. What about the Sphere's and level caps of 2nd/Adnd? ... Heh. I still use Spheres (or as close as I can get to them) and use a version of level caps, too. These are examples of rules that support fluff instead of just the bare mechanical minimum. As to Wizards? They shouldn't be easy to play. Sorry. I don't want dimwits trying to play Int 18+ spellcasters. |
| Lord Karsus12-27-07, 11:44 PM | Also, I hear that magic-item creation won't require XP. Thank GOD! That was probably the most stupidest thing I hated about 3ED. -Eh, the concept both made sense and didn't make sense at the same time. You were expending your own personal energies (- EXP) to make items, but at the same time, you should be learning (+ EXP) every time you created an item. |
| 18DELTA12-27-07, 11:50 PM | With the spell levels going highter than 9th, I'm guessing that's the reason they took away meta-magic. The schools of magic being done away with I'm not sure I like, but I'll wait'n'see. I like the idea of Div spells being called rituals, but teleportation a ritual? The idea of rituals sounds like it takes time and elaborate chalk designes on the floor with candles and incense, so how will that effect combat oriented teleport spells like dimension hop and dimension door? Also, I hear that magic-item creation won't require XP. Thank GOD! That was probably the most stupidest thing I hated about 3ED. That and the fact that calculating the base price for your magic item was like such a pain in the rear. I'm getting more intrugued by the day for 4ED! Just because it's new or different, doesn't mean it's broken. How can you form an educated opinion about something when you haven't even seen it's final product? I'm sure 4ED will be well balanced, maybe more so than 3.x or earlier editions. So far, I've liked many supplements that came out recently like the Tome of Battle, Complete Mage, and Complete Champion. They are all precursors (in their own way) to 4th. In 4E all the effects that were useful only outside of combat went over to rituals. They no longer take up a spellslot, now your spellslots can be "combat oriented" spells. Abjuration's long-term wards and restorative effects like Remove Disease are now rituals. Alot of the mid-combat protective spells are on the Wizard & Cleric's list. Necromancy is basically nerfed, because WotC is going away from the Save or Die Spells. A school is only as dead as its spells. To play an abjurer just pick defensive spells. If wall of fire is an abjuration spell to you then so be it, its you as the players choice. The reserve type ability is the wizard at will ability. The wizard also gets what are called powerwords(per encounter ability) The spell-slots are still once a day abilities(which are the most powerful effects in the game) |
| Green Elven Vampire12-28-07, 12:30 AM | So your saying that DnD should NEVER change mechanics at all, ever. To do so would mean that the whole system before hand was wrong. :rolleyes: What about the Sphere's and level caps of 2nd/Adnd? What about the drastic changes between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd? There have been many, THAC0 being just one point. So every edition previous to the one before was wrong and the newer edition is broken. With that kind of thinking, DnD would've probably died out long before. The reason it's done so well is because it changes, evolves, and becomes something different (usually better) than before. Will 4ED be perfect? Probably not, though I'm willing to bet, mechanics wise, it'll be as easy and maybe more fun to play than 3rd, 2nd, or 1st. Though your entitled to your own opinions, and they're not without merit, but I for one hope you do keep playing in 3rd or which ever edition your heart desiers and leave 4th to the open-minded individuals who see the new edition as an opportuinity for gaming fun and not some malevolent monster which needs to be stopped. Because in 1ED, 2ED and 3 & 3.5ED, wands were wands, staffs were staffs, and rods were rods. Magic still had schools and sub-schools and spell casters still relatively cast spells the way they always did. THAC0 wasn't a far cry from AC in 3ED. Changes are fine and dandy as long as they make sense. Most 4ED changes in the Realms (as we now know) make no sense. Implying I'm narrow minded is foolish as you obviously don't know me or wax philosophical with me face to face in a neutral environment. And if you want to throw rocks, then try not to make strong points with such bad grammar. ;) :) |
| GothicDan12-28-07, 01:14 AM | -Eh, the concept both made sense and didn't make sense at the same time. You were expending your own personal energies (- EXP) to make items, but at the same time, you should be learning (+ EXP) every time you created an item. I liked 2E's way of doing it - possible Con loss. It helped to explain why so many Mages were so physically frail. Alternatively, I thought about adding a new stat - an Arete stat, or Gnosis, or Magic, or whatever. In 3E, it seemed like they tried to make stats do too many things - Charisma was this and that, but wasn't this and that; XP was this and that, but wasn't this and that, etc. |
| Lord Karsus12-28-07, 01:31 AM | Alternatively, I thought about adding a new stat - an Arete stat, or Gnosis, or Magic, or whatever. -That would work. |
| GothicDan12-28-07, 01:47 AM | They should have hired me and LK to design 4E. |
| Lord Karsus12-28-07, 01:48 AM | They should have hired me and LK to design 4E. -I wouldn't say no. And, hey, now I have two nominations: I nominate Lord Karsus to be the new Realms R&D guy. He seems to get it right al the time. -I wouldn't relocate to the West Coast, though. |
| johnkretzer12-28-07, 01:50 AM | I like the new racial ideas...but only in a setting that is designed for them. I would not shoehorn these concepts into a setting that they don't belong in. I have said many times I think they would have been better served by making a new Campaign world for these concepts instead of changing Core. I probably would have brought into it then...and they get to be orginal. But the power that be didn't think a 3rd campaign setting would not be cost effective to support it fully as the other two(though I would have still done so slowly at first to see how much people would buy it.) I don't get why they think they can get more of the fan base by less.... |
| GothicDan12-28-07, 01:51 AM | Oddly enough, current plans include me living in Seattle. WotC, watch out. |
| Lord Karsus12-28-07, 02:05 AM | But the power that be didn't think a 3rd campaign setting would not be cost effective to support it fully as the other two(though I would have still done so slowly at first to see how much people would buy it.) -I agree. "Core"/Generic D&D shouldn't have a 'setting', per se. "Core"/Generic D&D should simply be rules, that's it. Lore is then injected into the rules in each individual campaign setting. So, if they wanted a setting that did such and such, that should be left to the lore in specific settings, not "Core"/Generic D&D. This also avoids a lot of the problems with having "Core"/Generic XYZ do this, FR XYZ do this, Eberron XYZ do this, etc. Oddly enough, current plans include me living in Seattle. -Don't do it. That would make me sad. Having Dan in the boondocks of NJ means I could theoretically meet him somewhere, play D&D, and/or theoretically take over the world. Having Dan on the West Coast greatly decreases those odds. |
| Green Elven Vampire12-28-07, 02:16 AM | -Don't do it. That would make me sad. Having Dan in the boondocks of NJ means I could theoretically meet him somewhere, play D&D, and/or theoretically take over the world. Having Dan on the West Coast greatly decreases those odds. You could always bring me on board specifically to tie peoples shoelaces together and place buckets of water above door frames, as well as giving systematic stink palms to those who deserve them. |
| Lord Karsus12-28-07, 02:32 AM | You could always bring me on board specifically to tie peoples shoelaces together and place buckets of water above door frames, as well as giving systematic stink palms to those who deserve them. -I don't think that would increase the odds of taking over the world. It would increase the rate of relative silliness, though. -What the hell is a stink palm, anyway? :confused: |
| Green Elven Vampire12-28-07, 02:41 AM | -I don't think that would increase the odds of taking over the world. It would increase the rate of relative silliness, though. -What the hell is a stink palm, anyway? :confused: The Infamous Stink Palm is when you rub your primary hand on your family jewels and/or sweaty butt crack and then shake someones hand. The said victim is then unaware of the stink lingering on his/her palm and then commences to scratch face, eat with said hand and a plethora of other things they normally do with said hand. Unless washed, that hand will smell for a good two days. :devil: :evillaugh |
| Lord Karsus12-28-07, 02:48 AM | -...Intriguing. Most intriguing. Twelve years of public schooling, and I've never heard of that one. |
| Mr_Miscellany12-28-07, 03:13 AM | -I agree. "Core"/Generic D&D shouldn't have a 'setting', per se. "Core"/Generic D&D should simply be rules, that's it. Exceptionally bad idea. Without some kind of generic lore, the game can't do its job to get new players/DMs going - get campaigns off their feet. New campaigns that aren't run in Eberron or FR need something to branch off of. Can't do that if there's no generic lore. ::::::::::::::: Reaction to something I just read in the book: I don't know if it's a bad idea or a good idea that WotC intends to have mechanics that are different for monsters/NPCs than what players will use. First impression: Meesa tink dis idea's a bad one! The universal nature of the rules-set is a strong point. But I could be wrong. Another reaction: I didn't realize until I read it in R&C (what's our common abbreviation for this book, anyway?) that humans in 3E were listed with positive descriptors, while all the other races had their flaws highlighted as much as their merits/postive traits. So now, humans as a race will have a common flaw as well, to balance things out. Humans are to be more susceptible to corruption. This core idea will also be used as the springboard from which to redesign monster lore. Illithids will now "....transform only humans into illithids (no halfling-sized squid faces." --Matt Sernett Similarly, certain lycanthrope varieties will only human-looking humanoid forms. ::::::::::::::::: ....and still reading! Sorry to those I haven't responded to yet. Everyone else keep taking up the slack plz. :D |
| Mr_Miscellany12-28-07, 03:24 AM | Just saw this: Resource management has been eliminated from the game. You're jumping to conclusions here, and I think you know it. You pretty much have to ignore the "per encounter, per day" part of what you just quoted for your conclusion to follow. No longer will the wizard think about whether the best tactical choice is to do nothing. No longer will the cleric have to think about whether to heal, buff, or do something else entirely. First sentence: How is "doing nothing" fun? Second sentence: I don't think you own the book, do you? It talks in detail about clerics being able to use healing words to heal others, to use battle prayers to bolster their allies own attacks or for singular spell attacks on enemies. Clerics will also be able to damage foes over time and remove/reduce a target's defenses. Clerics can even bolster their own allies defensive abilities. I hate it when they remove tactical choices from the game, and eliminate all but the most basic idea of threats. I shudder to think about what I will have to do to run this and challenge my upper level intellect players. Dude, it's one thing to read the book and come to conclusions, another to go bat-crazy at the drop of a hat. Maybe next time wait for the clarification you asked for before going off? (Assuming your lead-in question wasn't rhetorical in nature.) Might be more informative/educational for us all, without the grief attached, eh? ;) |
| Lord Karsus12-28-07, 03:32 AM | Exceptionally bad idea. Without some kind of generic lore, the game can't do its job to get new players/DMs going - get campaigns off their feet. New campaigns that aren't run in Eberron or FR need something to branch off of. Can't do that if there's no generic lore. -Well, yes, you need the basics. "Elves are fey-like, like magic, etc., etc.". "Dwarves are short, gruff and stout, like ale, etc., etc.". Things like that. -To be more specific, I don't think that injecting pseudo-lore into rules ("Core"/Generic D&D) is a good thing, as it then causes other settings to have to either comply, or 'spit in the wind' on these issues, concerning lore. -For example, the "Core"/Generic D&D Zeetvah shouldn't be "built around" the idea that they are a nearly extinct, persecuted race that is fighting for the survival of their species, and that's why they gain bonuses to 'hiding', 'running', and 'bows'. That's what I mean when I want "lore" and "core" to be seperated. The "core lore" interferes with the setting's lore. Illithids will now "....transform only humans into illithids (no halfling-sized squid faces." --Matt Sernett -So, I guess all of the non-Human Illithid varieties are going to go 'poof!', then. First sentence: How is "doing nothing" fun? -Knowing that next round, when you companion moves away, you are going to toast said creature with an empowered Fireball? Fairly amusing. -Someone doesn't need to be doing something every second of every encounter, mission, or whathaveyou, to enjoy the game. It's a general effect. You can be 'bored' at some points, 'overexcited' at others, and it all equalizes in the grand scheme of things. |
| Stigger12-28-07, 07:00 AM | Actually I'm more of the opinion that its going to really require a lot more tactical awareness, particularly when it comes to actually selecting what spells/effects to actually take at level up time. Seems to me it's going to require a certain amount of commitment to a favored approach to combat that's probably not going to be easy to balance out in a generalist sort of way without making some fairly hard choices. I'm thinking that the magical tradition thing that got hinted at is going to revolve around the arcane archtypes that Complete Mage went into more than anything else. I'm really thinking that spell selection is going to matter a lot in 4e, much moreso than in 3e, at least as far as I'm understanding it. |
| Diffan12-28-07, 08:18 AM | As to Wizards? They shouldn't be easy to play. Sorry. I don't want dimwits trying to play Int 18+ spellcasters hehe, that actually made me laugh out loud. But really, I don't see the correlation between someone's actual intelligence and the ability to use some spells at will as being dimwitted. I'm assuming that wizards will still have to prepare spells (ie. per day) as 18delta has mentioned and the possibility to hold them in reserve for a bigger battle ahead is always an option. In those situations, an at will ability could be easier than A) using a wand/scroll or B) doing nothing. Options, Options, Options are always better than sitting there saying "I ready an action. I'm done" over and over. Besides, like it or not, dimwits do play the game and have every right to play wizards too. (Whether or not they live long is another matter ;)) Implying I'm narrow minded is foolish as you obviously don't know me or wax philosophical with me face to face in a neutral environment. And if you want to throw rocks, then try not to make strong points with such bad grammar. Not throwing stones, just stating an observation. The material isn't even out yet, heck it's still changing, and your already against it. That sounds pretty narrow minded to me, reguardless of the environment or the lack of an intimate relationship. and dude, grammar.............seriously? :rolleye2: -What the hell is a stink palm, anyway? Also reference the movie Mallrats. -Knowing that next round, when you companion moves away, you are going to toast said creature with an empowered Fireball? Fairly amusing. -Someone doesn't need to be doing something every second of every encounter, mission, or whathaveyou, to enjoy the game. It's a general effect. You can be 'bored' at some points, 'overexcited' at others, and it all equalizes in the grand scheme of things. You reminded me of this guy we gamed with once. He was a wizard//cleric (gestalt game mind you) who never cast a spell or very few because of his fear of running out. The whole time during the dungeon crawl, he used his torch to light the way. That's all. The whole time. At the very freakin' least he could've used the Aid Another action. That requires almost nothing and would've been better than what he did do. True, there are times when you can be 'bored' or 'overexcited' during the game, but we're strictly talking about combat scenarios. The word 'bored' should never apply and the act of 'reading an action' should be applied to helping your companions or to react accordingly. There is a good example of Dan's dimwitted people I guess. |
| Lord Karsus12-28-07, 08:23 AM | Also reference the movie Mallrats. -Never seen it. The whole time during the dungeon crawl, he used his torch to light the way. That's all. The whole time. -Well, at least he did something. |
| Rauric12-28-07, 08:34 AM | I'll bring mine too so that we can commiserate and have more than one copy. Making someone pay 20 dollars for an advertisement is despicable in general. That's like making someone pay for a salesman to sell you a car. And trust me. I AM a salesman. This does NOT sell the actual product because it contains NO rules. It only contains more flavor, which I already don't like. The truth is, I think they still don't actually HAVE any mechanics. They're still testing everything, and I think that if they did have something, they would have been eager to show it. This is how retail companies work. If they have something, they WANT to show it to you. Therefore, they don't have anything. I know right. They were about to "make" me by it then I pulled out my gun and shot a couple of them in the leg then I jumped out the window of the building that they were holding me in. I guess they should have checked every orifice better when they picked me up and forced me to by their product. :devil: I agree it is a waste MS, I just dislike it when people take no responsibility for their purchasing habits. I used to have no self control and bought everything under the sun as well. Nobody made you though. The net will be full of info, so will your buddy John. ;) 63 It isn't despicable, they just know gamers real well. Even the old school ones have the "Gotta Catch Em All" mentality. :D |
| Alediran12-28-07, 08:35 AM | I have to play the Wizard in the campaign I'm DMing because nobody else can deal with the bad aspects of it. The rest have a combo of Arcane/Fighting skills. I rein myself pretty much with the spells, because if I wanted to go nova with Alediran (Wizard 5/Elemental Savant (air) 6, and he has a lot of spell slots thanks to a 28 effective int for magic: 18 base +2 for Sun Elf, +2 for increases, +2 for Spellcasting Prodigy, +4 for Headband of Intellect) he could colapse the entire cave of Menzoberranzan. A spellcaster who saves it's best spells for life or death moments is a wise spellcaster. |
| Lord Karsus12-28-07, 08:42 AM | I know right. They were about to "make" me by it then I pulled out my gun and shot a couple of them in the leg then I jumped out the window of the building that they were holding me in. I guess they should have checked every orifice better when they picked me up and forced me to by their product. :devil: -Yeah, same thing almost happened to me. I saw the black car waiting outside, with the 'WOTC4EVA' Washington plates, and knew it was them. I hid, and we played the waiting game, and eventually they gave up, and drove away. I agree it is a waste MS, I just dislike it when people take no responsibility for their purchasing habits. I used to have no self control and bought everything under the sun as well. Nobody made you though. The net will be full of info, so will your buddy John. ;) 63 -I'm going to have to agree. Even a great book like AGHotR I open up and skim a bit in the bookstore, just to make sure I know what I'm getting myself into before buying it. -And, it's not like you can't return it. I've returned a D&D book before. |
| Rauric12-28-07, 08:47 AM | I did pick it up THEN found out it kinda already existed!!!. Oh well. The cover is nice and it is a nice reference guide for me. I see that black car in front of my house every few days. My one twin is acting funny as well. He came up to me and said "Can I get Races and Classes for Crhistmas please?" That is fine except till then he was still just spekaing Twin Gibbberish with a smattering of real words thrown in!!! DIABOLICAL!!!! |
| Lord Karsus12-28-07, 08:55 AM | DIABOLICAL!!!! -WotC trafficks with them, remember. Hell, the first prototypes of the new 4e rules were known as the Orcus Protocols, or something to that effect! |
| Rauric12-28-07, 08:59 AM | The per encounter works for me. I have been ruuning a gestalt game recently and even though they are now even more powerful the players almost bite it here and there. It has made it pretty thrilling and I can make some encounters over the top. We joke around that Gestalt was 4E before they knew how to do it. We just started another game (non-gestalt) with magic regen rules from UA. The DM wanted this to happen ad kinda is annoyed when we can heal up after the fights, then is happy when we get throgh something in a few hours instead of a few days due to bad rolls. We have almost died several times there. Every encounter seems to be a life or death thing. It is fun. I know peoples tastes are different though. My group is around 22+ in age with about 3 in the 30+ age range. I am more than willing to bring in all ages though. I want the younger gen to learn a little from the older guys, I think that is how our hobby works best. |
| Rauric12-28-07, 09:01 AM | I am glad my kid speaks in complete sentences at 2 now, but he keeps throwing in how he wants that book. I might have to get him deprogrammed. |
| Diffan12-28-07, 09:16 AM | -Well, at least he did something. He'd have been better off shoving that up his ***. :bigeyes: At least rent Mallrats, it's pretty funny. If you like it, I'll mail you my VHS copy since your only 1 State away from me and mine was free to begin with. A spellcaster who saves it's best spells for life or death moments is a wise spellcaster. I couldn't agree more, but that doesn't mean that the at will abilities wizards will get makes them dimwitted, broken, or otherwise. It means that they can rely on their lesser spells more often, keeping their best spells for the life or death moments. It means that they don't have to rely on things their horrible at, like melee or ranged combat. |
| Rauric12-28-07, 09:22 AM | There will be 1/day spells. |
| Lord Karsus12-28-07, 09:27 AM | He'd have been better off shoving that up his ***. :bigeyes: -Then it wouldn't illuminate the dark corridor! ;) |
| Diffan12-28-07, 09:29 AM | -Then it wouldn't illuminate the dark corridor! ;) :rofl: |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 10:12 AM | I'm personally looking forward to the new system for spellcasters and skills. I can't say I was ever much of a fan for limited magic, much less Vancian spellcasting. To my mind, the only difference that should be there between a high and low level wizard or cleric is one of magnitude of spells available. One of the many reasons I loved the OWoD Magic system for Mage. I'm looking forward to it, too. Every time I tried playing a Wizard I got sick of it long before I levelled in any meaningful way. A 1st-level Wizard has about 5 spells available to him at 1st-level. Assuming the average of four Encounters per day, that's about one spell per encounter. That's great if Encounters only last one round, but they tend to last longer then that. So you throw off a 1st-Level spell or a 0-Level spell, and then...? Out comes the crossbow. And then all of a sudden I'm not playing a Wizard. I'm playing a farmer in a dress with a crossbow. I... absolutely... despised... having to pull out a crossbow. I'm a Wizard, not some crossdressing reject from my home country's crossbowman units. I should be throwing magic around. I can't speak to high-level Wizard play, as I never got to that point, as I always junked those Wizard characters. But man, at low levels, playing a Wizard sucked (Because I didn't feel like I was playing a Wizard). A spellcaster who saves it's best spells for life or death moments is a wise spellcaster. And those spells will be the Wizard's "Per Day" spells. Originally Posted by msatran No longer will the wizard think about whether the best tactical choice is to do nothing. First sentence: How is "doing nothing" fun? Exactly. What was the quote? "20 minutes of fun packed into four hours of play?" I remember one game where we were engaged in a combat that lasted over 30 minutes. You want to know how one player played out his turn when it came around? GM: Ok, your turn. What're you gonna do? PLAYER: Sword. GM: You're up, again. What're you gonna do? PLAYER: Sword. GM: Round 3. So what're you gonna do? PLAYER: Sword. GM: Back to you. So what're you gonna do? PLAYER: Sword. In over 30 minutes of playtime, the guy just said "sword" over and over again. Where's the tactical choice in that? Hell, where's the "fun" in that? I'm not saying it is broken because it's new or different. From what we have available so far, the whole magic item/spell casting system is broken in the sense that every wizard/ sorcerer/ bard and cleric is being told that for years and years (and in the case of elves, hundreds of years) they have been casting spells wrong and that their magic items aren't what they thought they were, and that Specialist wizards were never really specialist wizards cause there are no sub-schools of magic. It's a joke, and I'm not laughing. Well, as far as the Realms are concerned, that's not the case, as the whole idea behind the Spellplague is to explain away the changes. So it's not as if it's being retconned into things always working that way, as with the Spellplague, things used to work one way, and then a magical cataclysm occurs, and then they start working another way. Is that such a big deal, though, in comparison to the real doozies in the 2E to 3E changes, which were just retconned in? For instance, Dwarves could only be Fighters, Clerics, and Thieves. And now they can be any class under the sun. Like Bronnia Stonesplitter, in the FRCS, who's a Wizard. Or Beyarg Stonebreaker, from Champions of Valor, who's a Paladin. Elves could only be Fighters, Mages, Rangers, Clerics, and Thieves. They too can now also be any class. Gnomes could only be Fighters, Illusionists, Clerics, and Thieves. But now you've got an iconic, Gimble, as well as Dorgafal Shiverock from Champions of Valor, both of whom are Bards, a class which Gnomes formerly couldn't take. Elves could previously only reach 15th-Level as Wizards, and as such, 7th-Level spells were the highest level of spell they could cast. Now they can cast 8th and 9th-Level spells, and can achieve any level a human can achieve, and not just as a Wizard, but in any class. Cleric spells only ever reached 7th-Level. Now they have access to 8th and 9th-level Cleric spells. Humans couldn't multiclass. Now they can. Not only that, characters which were previously single-class in the Realms have become multiclass. And on and on and on. Do the changes to magic really compare to the existence of non-human Paladins or non-humans who've achieved a level greater then 16 in any class? |
| Diffan12-28-07, 10:19 AM | Green Knight...............your my hero. |
| GothicDan12-28-07, 11:12 AM | And on and on and on. Do the changes to magic really compare to the existence of non-human Paladins or non-humans who've achieved a level greater then 16 in any class? Yes. Is that such a big deal, though, in comparison to the real doozies in the 2E to 3E changes, which were just retconned in? That being said, I still dislike many of the changes from 2E to the 3E. And you're asking us to wholeheartedly trust these SAME designers? It seems like you're making a failing argument for yourself, here. ;) Elves could only be Fighters, Mages, Rangers, Clerics, and Thieves. They too can now also be any class. They could also be Enchanters, Dualists, Psionicists, Fighter/Mage/Thieves, Crusaders, any of a number of awesome, Feywardens, Goldhearts, lore-based thematic Kits and similar things (Elven High Mage, Bladesinger, etc.), Spellsingers, on and on. WotC's experienced a desire to not "throw everything but the kitchen sink" into the game - this should apply to races, too. And you seem to be praising versatility (which isn't ALWAYS best, in my opinion), yet WotC's SEVERELY limiting our ability to play in the canon Realms as we wish (note I say canon, not heavily homebrewed) by slaying many deities, including one of the most popular ones (Mystra). It's hard for me to believe how you even approve of this. It seems to be full of enough hypocrisy to make anyone explode. Elves could only be Fighters, Mages, Rangers, Clerics, and Thieves. They too can now also be any class. Incorrect, again. The Elven High Mage Kit presented in the Evermeet boxed set - 2E - was designed specifically to allow Elven Wizards to bypass 15th level. And then the updated version in Cormanthyr presented further options. |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 11:19 AM | Yes. To each their own, but having Elf Druids, Halfling Paladins, Gnome Bards, and Dwarf Wizards is a pretty big change. IMO, that's a bigger change then a wand being about boosting a spell, rather then being a device which cast the same spell repeatedly. But then again, I never liked wands and staffs in prior editions. |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 11:21 AM | Quick suggestion, but how about not making such drastic and massive edits to your original post? I'm here responding to your original post, and all of a sudden, when I click Submit Reply, it's quintupled in size. |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 11:27 AM | That being said, I still dislike many of the changes from 2E to the 3E. And you're asking us to wholeheartedly trust these SAME designers? It seems like you're making a failing argument for yourself, here. ;) Not really. I'm pointing out that those posters who like 3E should bear in mind that there were pretty drastic changes between 2E and 3E, too. And in some cases, the changes were even more drastic. Besides, in those cases, I liked the changes. They could also be Enchanters, Dualists, Psionicists, Fighter/Mage/Thieves, Crusaders, any of a number of awesome, Feywardens, Goldhearts, lore-based thematic Kits and similar things (Elven High Mage, Bladesinger, etc.), Spellsingers, on and on. Not intent on being here all day, I was just looking at the 2E PHB. And you seem to be praising versatility (which isn't ALWAYS best, in my opinion), yet WotC's SEVERELY limiting our ability to play in the canon Realms as we wish (note I say canon, not heavily homebrewed) by slaying many deities, including one of the most popular ones (Mystra). I'm not talking about the Realms changes. I'm talking about the rules changes. It's hard for me to believe how you even approve of this. It seems to be full of enough hypocrisy to make anyone explode. Talking about the rules changes, not the changes to the Realms. As a rules set, 4E looks to be pretty good to me. Incorrect, again. The Elven High Mage Kit presented in the Evermeet boxed set - 2E - was designed specifically to allow Elven Wizards to bypass 15th level. And then the updated version in Cormanthyr presented further options. Once again, in the interests of not being here all day, I didn't go rooting through to see every single possibility. You're arguing minutae, though, as that doesn't change the fact that classes which were previously closed to Elves (and other nonhumans) are now open to them, and that they can now achieve levels which they were previously denied achieving. |
| GothicDan12-28-07, 11:30 AM | Quick suggestion, but how about not making such drastic and massive edits to your original post? I'm here responding to your original post, and all of a sudden, when I click Submit Reply, it's quintupled in size. Sorry about that! It's the ADHD. I'm like, "Yes. Oh, look, a dog! *Wander away, play with dog. Come back.* Oh yeah, and this, too!" And repeat. :) |
| GothicDan12-28-07, 11:33 AM | So as not to quintuple my previous post... GreenKnight, what you are calling minutiae are to what some of us help define something. Granted, I do think that the mechanical changes will be a perfectly viable ruleset, and it may well improve on previous editions in some cases. But you were referring to things like 'retcons' - and you can't retcon something unless you put it in the context of a story world. Hence, being as we are on the FR boards, it would be a logical assumption that this meant Forgotten Realms. |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 11:38 AM | Granted, I do think that the mechanical changes will be a perfectly viable ruleset, and it may well improve on previous editions in some cases. But you were referring to things like 'retcons' - and you can't retcon something unless you put it in the context of a story world. Hence, being as we are on the FR boards, it would be a logical assumption that this meant Forgotten Realms. Well, I was responding to GEV, who was complaining that the magic changes were going to be retconned in. I was pointing out that, in fact, they weren't going to be retconned in, as that's the whole point of the Spellplague. But even if they were retconned in, that it wasn't the first time things were retconned into the Realms, the 2E to 3E Realms changeover being a case in point. To be honest, though, if it's a choice between a retcon and the Spellplague, I'd take the retcon any day of the week. Of course, the changes in magic could've been explained away in any number of other ways. The most non intrusive way being that Mystra simply decided to change the rules of magic, much like how Kelemvor decided to change the rules of death. No muss, no fuss. Magic worked one way, and now on Mystra's say-so, magic works another way. Whatever the case, aside from the changes to magic, it's pretty well established that the changes to the Realms have nothing to do with the 4E changeover. The Tyr/Tymora/Helm thing has nothing to do with explaining away the changes to 4E, for instance. |
| GothicDan12-28-07, 11:41 AM | I agree. That's why a lot of us are pretty okay with at least some of the mechanical changes, but are all WTF about the FR ones. But the changes to 4E magic WAS specifically cited as part of the reason why they destroyed the Weave (and thus, by extension, Mystra). And if that's their mindset on 4E mechanics - brutally implement them and destroy things that don't even need to be destroyed - I'm not much for buying into them. |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 11:49 AM | I agree. That's why a lot of us are pretty okay with at least some of the mechanical changes, but are all WTF about the FR ones. But the changes to 4E magic WAS specifically cited as part of the reason why they destroyed the Weave (and thus, by extension, Mystra). Well, my argument is that it's unnecessary. One can easily explain away the changes to the magic system without taking a chainsaw to Mystra, the Weave, and the Realms in general. And in light of all the other changes that they're making to the Realms, I call BS on that one. They're not killing Mystra to explain away the 4E changes anymore then they're killing Helm to explain away the 4E changes, combining Selune and Sehanine, Talos and Gruumsh, etc. They're killing Mystra because they've got a list titled "Things That Are Wrong With The Realms", and Mystra's #1 with a bullet on that list. And if that's their mindset on 4E mechanics - brutally implement them and destroy things that don't even need to be destroyed - I'm not much for buying into them. I don't see the two as necessarily being tied. I think these're things they've wanted to do to the Realms for a while, and they're just using the edition changeover as an excuse to implement them. Whatever the case, when the 4E Realms comes out, I'll probably buy the book. But if I run it, though, it'll be just like the current Realms. The only changes I'll make are that A) Mystra decided to change the rules of magic, and B) Tyr absconded back to Asgard and Torm took his place as God of Justice. :D Everything else will remain as-is. Although odds are, as nice as the core setting sounds, I may have to play in that, first. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-28-07, 11:57 AM | -I agree. "Core"/Generic D&D shouldn't have a 'setting', per se. "Core"/Generic D&D should simply be rules, that's it. Lore is then injected into the rules in each individual campaign setting. So, if they wanted a setting that did such and such, that should be left to the lore in specific settings, not "Core"/Generic D&D. This also avoids a lot of the problems with having "Core"/Generic XYZ do this, FR XYZ do this, Eberron XYZ do this, etc. Great points, all. That being said, I *do* like what I've seen of the "core" setting so far. |
| GothicDan12-28-07, 11:59 AM | GreenKnight: Why do you have such a hate-on for Tyr? Granted, I like Torm slightly more, but I like Nobanion more than Torm. ;) PS: This is again off topic. Sorry! Feel free not to answer! |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 12:11 PM | I don't hate Tyr. Hell, in a lot of cases, I play worshippers of Tyr. The one and only thing I don't like about him is that he's an interloper god. There're other interloper gods in the Realms, sure, and I don't mind them. But none of them are as much of a sore thumb as Tyr. He's only one degree short of gods like Thor, Zeus, and Odin. And while I like Thor, Zeus, and Odin, I don't want blatant interloper deities like them in the Realms, either. In Tyr's case, he's someone who you learn about in elementary school, with the story of Fenris. So like I said, he's only one degree short of being as wellknown as them. To top it off, they ripped off the story of Fenris with Kezef the Chaos Hound. As I made clear in another thread, that's something which I do not like at all. But that's pretty much it, though. I just don't like that Tyr's a (pretty well-known) interloper deity. His presence has a habit of pulling me out of the Realms. |
| GothicDan12-28-07, 12:15 PM | I never learned anything about the Norse pantheon in school. Well, until Beowulf in 11th grade, and by that time I wrote (spontaneously) a 10 page paper for the teacher on the Aesir and Vanir. And to me, Tyr was never very big in the classical Norse pantheon - Thor, Odin, Loke, Frey, and Freya all were bigger. He seemed more a second-rate, forgotten deity... Which he was in D&D, explaining his move from Asgard. I don't mind interloper gods as long as it's made obvious they are interlopers, and not unexplainable carbon copies from another world. (Which is why I hated the 'Lolth for every Prime Sphere!' type jazz.) |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 12:25 PM | And to me, Tyr was never very big in the classical Norse pantheon - Thor, Odin, Loke, Frey, and Freya all were bigger. Well, like I said, he's one degree short of them. :P But yeah, I learned about Tyr, Balder, and all the rest in Elementary School. I'd guess that a whole lot of other people heard the story of Tyr and Fenris when they were young 'uns, too. That seems like an obvious story to go with when teaching mythology. And like I said, his presence tends to pull me out of the Realms. For instance, I was playing NWN2, and there's a part where you gotta spend the night praying before an icon of Tyr. Wow. I'm looking at the thing and all I could think was "When the hell did I travel from Neverwinter to Norway"? I could almost hear Led Zeppelin's Immigrant Song playing in the background. Frankly, I don't want to think about Vikings or The 13th Warrior when I'm playing a Realms game. |
| GothicDan12-28-07, 12:36 PM | Eh, I guess the fact that Tyr's always been around, and is significantly different than the version worshiped in Norway, is pretty much enough for me. What I'm upset about is more the Rauthymar of the Moonshaes. Crap, topic. Um.. Um... Mr. Miscellany: Do they talk anything about the specific powers/abilities the various races will get as they go up in level? This reminded me of the way they allowed you to play Celestials in Warriors of Heaven. |
| Lord Karsus12-28-07, 12:56 PM | GM: Ok, your turn. What're you gonna do? PLAYER: Sword. GM: You're up, again. What're you gonna do? PLAYER: Sword. GM: Round 3. So what're you gonna do? PLAYER: Sword. GM: Back to you. So what're you gonna do? PLAYER: Sword. -If I had a player like that, he'd get his ass kicked personally by me. I'm a stickler with things like that. If a player ever says, "I attack!", and doesn't specifiy anything, I assume he/she means a fellow party member, and, well, you get the idea. :cool: Great points, all. That being said, I *do* like what I've seen of the "core" setting so far. -That's fine. But, do you like the fact that in order to incorporate some of the underlying themes and concepts in the new 4e Core, some things are going to have to be shoehorned in, to a degree? That sort of stuff is what I was getting at. "Core"/Generic D&d should have as little lore as possible, as not to "force" a setting/DM to present things as such, such, and such. -And, Rino, as always was right- the artwork was very nice in that book. I went to the bookstore to buy something else, and was flipping through it. I subsequently realized I locked my keys in my car, but that's a story for another day...Oi Vey... |
| GothicDan12-28-07, 12:58 PM | LK is so Jewish. Aw. |
| Lord Karsus12-28-07, 01:08 PM | -I wasn't saying "Oi vey" at the time, I'll tell you that much! |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 01:19 PM | -If I had a player like that, he'd get his ass kicked personally by me. I'm a stickler with things like that. If a player ever says, "I attack!", and doesn't specifiy anything, I assume he/she means a fellow party member, and, well, you get the idea. :cool: :P The point I was getting at was that, with only one viable option, combats can get pretty dull. While I've never gotten to the point that that player's reached, where I just utter one word when it's my turn to attack, I have been hit by the "only one option in combat" malaise. And to alleviate it, I've often done crazy crap in order to liven things up. For example, I'd start Bull Rushing things in the middle of combat, even when it was a bad idea to do so. Why? To break up the monotony of just doing standard attacks. Would a standard attack make more sense? Sure, especially since it wouldn't result in an Attack of Opportunity. But a Bull Rush makes things a bit more interesting. Does pulling out my Crossbow and shooting a bad guy from on top of that ships mast make more sense? Sure. But swinging down on a rope to attack him with a dagger is a bit more interesting (Incidentally, I tried just that in a Living Greyhawk game, and no, it didn't work out. But damn, if it wasn't funny :D). Point is, some variety in combat options beyond simply "I attack" would be nice. Probably why I like the Tome of Battle so much (Nevermind that the Charging Minotaur maneuver makes Bull Rushes WAY more fun :D). The same is true for low-level Wizards, who get a handful of spells, after which, it's just Crossbow/Crossbow/Crossbow. -That's fine. But, do you like the fact that in order to incorporate some of the underlying themes and concepts in the new 4e Core, some things are going to have to be shoehorned in, to a degree? That sort of stuff is what I was getting at. "Core"/Generic D&d should have as little lore as possible, as not to "force" a setting/DM to present things as such, such, and such. I don't see how having an implied setting is a bad thing. It's not as if things which're in the core setting must be in every other setting. Having Pelor and St. Cuthbert in the 3.5 PHB, for instance, doesn't mean that they have to show up other campaign worlds. Likewise, having Gnomes who favor being Illusionists or Bards doesn't mean you can't have a setting where Gnomes favor classes like Artificer. IMO, having a core setting is a good idea for many of the reasons they've listed. From having sample gods for new Cleric players to choose from, and which can be used for temples in generic D&D adventures, to having some background fluff to read in addition to the game mechanics, which by itself, makes for some pretty dry reading. |
| Lord Karsus12-28-07, 01:29 PM | I don't see how having an implied setting is a bad thing. It's not as if things which're in the core setting must be in every other setting. Having Pelor and St. Cuthbert in the 3.5 PHB, for instance, doesn't mean that they have to show up other campaign worlds. Likewise, having Gnomes who favor being Illusionists or Bards doesn't mean you can't have a setting where Gnomes favor classes like Artificer. IMO, having a core setting is a good idea for many of the reasons they've listed. From having sample gods for new Cleric players to choose from, and which can be used for temples in generic D&D adventures, to having some background fluff to read in addition to the game mechanics, which by itself, makes for some pretty dry reading. -Like I said earlier, when the "Core"/Generic D&D rulebook says that Zeetvah's get a +2 to 'Hide', 'Run' and 'Jump' checks, because they are nearly extinct due to the fact that the kingdom of Blahblahblah has hunted them nearly into extinction, and they're good at hiding, running and jumping, how do you explain something like that? You can't even justify them getting those stats, if the Kingdom of Blahblahblah doesn't exist in your campaign setting. -I'd rather see something like, "Zeetvah's have X, Y, and Z. It's in your hands, now". |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 01:38 PM | Ah, I see where you're getting at. Well, look at it this way. It's not as if that's something that's new. I mean, just look at the current PHB. In it, Dwarves get a racial bonus to fighting Orcs and Goblinoids, and an AC bonus against Giants. Would that make sense in a campaign setting where there are no orcs, goblinoids, or giants? Nope. Yet the PHB not only assumes that Dwarves, Orcs, Goblinoids, and Giants exist in the same setting, but that Dwarves have an enmity towards them above and beyond what they feel towards other races. The only difference, here, is that the 4E PHB has the Core Setting where they explain the reasons for that (In the Core Setting, it's because Dwarves were slaves of Giants). In other words, nothing changes, except they explain why that is in one particular setting. So I don't see a downside to that, as the reason will be different in other settings, or as has often been the case, the racial rules will be altered in campaign settings where they don't make sense (No Orcs in Campaign Setting X, so no reason for Dwarves to get an attack bonus against them, etc). |
| Green Elven Vampire12-28-07, 01:38 PM | Quick suggestion, but how about not making such drastic and massive edits. Why not, WoTc seems to be doing just that with 4ED, and you're all about massive and drastic changes. ;) |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 01:42 PM | Why not, WoTc seems to be doing just that with 4ED, and you're all about massive and drastic changes. ;) So were you complaining with the transition from 2E to 3E? Because they made a bunch of drastic changes there, too. And if so, do you still play with 2E rules, or do you use 3E? |
| Suin Bahhar12-28-07, 01:44 PM | Mr. Miscellany, does the book mention if wizards suffer much for not using implements or do they require to get all zany when seeing a magical one? What is said about the swordmage? Is it true it will come out in FR 4ED or the new FR Players Guide? |
| johnkretzer12-28-07, 01:45 PM | To each their own, but having Elf Druids, Halfling Paladins, Gnome Bards, and Dwarf Wizards is a pretty big change. IMO, that's a bigger change then a wand being about boosting a spell, rather then being a device which cast the same spell repeatedly. But then again, I never liked wands and staffs in prior editions. The only one of these you actualy couldn't do in 2nd edition was the dwarven wizard....Elf druids has always been allowed...Gnome Bards the Bard book in 2nd changed that and halfling Spec. priests of their war god were pretty much Paladins. |
| GothicDan12-28-07, 01:49 PM | GreenKnight was referring only to the PHB. I guess that means we should also judge 4E solely by the 4E PHBI, right? ;) |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 01:50 PM | The only one of these you actualy couldn't do in 2nd edition was the dwarven wizard....Elf druids has always been allowed...Gnome Bards the Bard book in 2nd changed that and halfling Spec. priests of their war god were pretty much Paladins. Once again, minutae. You're arguing against details, not the actual argument. Which is that at one point there were classes which were completely closed off to some races, and then suddenly they weren't. At one point there were levels which nonhumans couldn't attain, and suddenly they could. Besides, "Elf druids has always been allowed"? Where? And a Specialty Priest isn't a Paladin. But if you prefer, I'll change my example to a Halfling Druid, or a Halfling Illusionist. |
| johnkretzer12-28-07, 01:54 PM | I'm looking forward to it, too. Every time I tried playing a Wizard I got sick of it long before I levelled in any meaningful way. A 1st-level Wizard has about 5 spells available to him at 1st-level. Assuming the average of four Encounters per day, that's about one spell per encounter. That's great if Encounters only last one round, but they tend to last longer then that. So you throw off a 1st-Level spell or a 0-Level spell, and then...? Out comes the crossbow. And then all of a sudden I'm not playing a Wizard. I'm playing a farmer in a dress with a crossbow. I... absolutely... despised... having to pull out a crossbow. I'm a Wizard, not some crossdressing reject from my home country's crossbowman units. I should be throwing magic around. I can't speak to high-level Wizard play, as I never got to that point, as I always junked those Wizard characters. But man, at low levels, playing a Wizard sucked (Because I didn't feel like I was playing a Wizard). It is about 5th or 6th level a wizard doesn't have to worry about running out of spells in 4 encounters. Not really all that high level. Also I consider playing the character fun...not rolling some dice and killing imaginary foes...(which can be fun too but it is of minor importance to me)... Also I like playing a young starting out wizard who can run out of spells and must resort to other tactics. You start the game like a apprenticed wizard not Merlin. It is much more interesting to see a character grow in power if they start off actualy weak. |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 01:54 PM | GreenKnight was referring only to the PHB. I guess that means we should also judge 4E solely by the 4E PHBI, right? ;) The point, once again, is that there were race/class combinations which weren't allowed. Then 3E came along, and suddenly they were allowed. There were levels which some races couldn't attain, and then suddenly they could. |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 01:58 PM | It is about 5th or 6th level a wizard doesn't have to worry about running out of spells in 4 encounters. Not really all that high level. Well, I never got to that point, as I got bored to tears with my crossbowman long before then. Also I consider playing the character fun...not rolling some dice and killing imaginary foes...(which can be fun too but it is of minor importance to me)... Well, I like to have fun throughout an entire game. That's also one reason why I prefer Paladins over Fighters, as they've got access to skills which are useful out of combat. Also I like playing a young starting out wizard who can run out of spells and must resort to other tactics. You start the game like a apprenticed wizard not Merlin. It is much more interesting to see a character grow in power if they start off actualy weak. Who says you still won't be weak? Being able to fling a Magic Missile all day isn't exactly game breaking. But it'd be nice to have that option, instead of having to whip out the crossbow. |
| GothicDan12-28-07, 02:02 PM | The point, once again, is that there were race/class combinations which weren't allowed. Then 3E came along, and suddenly they were allowed. There were levels which some races couldn't attain, and then suddenly they could. But that didn't make a difference UNLESS it was placed in a campaign world. No one cares what a dwarf can or can't do unless you're playing the dwarf - in a campaign world, of some sort, whether it's FR or homebrew. Being able to fling a Magic Missile all day isn't exactly game breaking. But it'd be nice to have that option, instead of having to whip out the crossbow. Being able to fling a Magic Missile all day isn't game breaking, but it WOULD severely increase a low level mage's chances of survival - it's an instant hit. He could kill about 10 times more Kobolds in a day than a Wizard who couldn't do that. And that probability difference IS enough to change parts of a campaign world, historically speaking. You know... We should all make a world base around the 4E mechanics. That's something a LOT of us could get behind. :) |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 02:08 PM | Being able to fling a Magic Missile all day isn't game breaking, but it WOULD severely increase a low level mage's chances of survival - it's an instant hit. He could kill about 10 times more Kobolds in a day than a Wizard who couldn't do that. And that probability difference IS enough to change parts of a campaign world, historically speaking. ...assuming Magic Missile remains exactly as it is, ruleswise. |
| Lord Karsus12-28-07, 02:09 PM | Ah, I see where you're getting at. Well, look at it this way. It's not as if that's something that's new. I mean, just look at the current PHB. In it, Dwarves get a racial bonus to fighting Orcs and Goblinoids, and an AC bonus against Giants. Would that make sense in a campaign setting where there are no orcs, goblinoids, or giants? Nope. Yet the PHB not only assumes that Dwarves, Orcs, Goblinoids, and Giants exist in the same setting, but that Dwarves have an enmity towards them above and beyond what they feel towards other races. The only difference, here, is that the 4E PHB has the Core Setting where they explain the reasons for that (In the Core Setting, it's because Dwarves were slaves of Giants). In other words, nothing changes, except they explain why that is in one particular setting. So I don't see a downside to that, as the reason will be different in other settings, or as has often been the case, the racial rules will be altered in campaign settings where they don't make sense (No Orcs in Campaign Setting X, so no reason for Dwarves to get an attack bonus against them, etc). -Hey, I don't like it now either! The "Core"/Generic/pseudo-Greyhawk but not really kills me. Yuck. |
| johnkretzer12-28-07, 02:21 PM | @Greenknight: I don't mean to say the new magic systerm would be bad. As I don't know what it is going to be yet. Though I have only real problem with the way it is written as of now.(Which I'll get to in a little bit). The thing is I really don't have a problem with the way it works now. My biggest problem is the fact that they are getting rid of schools to turn them into classes. This is boring to me as I enjoy playing generalist wizards...instead of force specialization. Heck I see little difference in firing a crossbow(though I generally go with a sling myself as a wizard) and casting magic missile. But it is a major difference to me when all the spells I cast are variations on three to four types of spells. That would get boring for me. |
| johnkretzer12-28-07, 02:30 PM | The point, once again, is that there were race/class combinations which weren't allowed. Then 3E came along, and suddenly they were allowed. There were levels which some races couldn't attain, and then suddenly they could. Ok...two things though 1) Level caps were for the most part arbitary rules to get people to play humens. They are no longer really needed and could be thankfuly thrown out. The effects of them where actualy very little. And really had no in game explanation. 2) Class/Race limitations: The only one you came up with that is actualy true is dwaves and halflings couldn't become spellcasters. (Which you could ignore if you wanted in 1st and 2nd as in 3rd you could not allow them to become spellcasters). These two changes are very minor in my opinion as they really didn't change that much...unlike some changes I see cominmg along. |
| Green Elven Vampire12-28-07, 02:34 PM | So were you complaining with the transition from 2E to 3E? Because they made a bunch of drastic changes there, too. And if so, do you still play with 2E rules, or do you use 3E? I never complained about transition from 2ED to 3ED as the changes were smooth and easy for the most part. Converting things were rather simple and quick. |
| Stigger12-28-07, 02:53 PM | Presuming that Saga edition is the template for 4e, then I don't see why a generalist couldn't be built quite easily by diversifying the talent tree selections. Nothing in there says that you can't take a few abilities from Consular, Guardian, or Sentinel talent trees that I saw, so I'm fairly sure it will probably be a similar case with wizards if its true among the force-users. I suspect making a generalist will be a bit more difficult in a lot of respects, but it wasn't really that easy in the first place if your DM didn't give you access to many different spell scrolls in the loot. As to the rest, I pretty much agree with GK on most of it, even if I still oppose a lot of the 4e Realms changes. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-28-07, 04:07 PM | Out comes the crossbow. And then all of a sudden I'm not playing a Wizard. I'm playing a farmer in a dress with a crossbow. I... absolutely... despised... having to pull out a crossbow. I'm a Wizard, not some crossdressing reject from my home country's crossbowman units. :rofl: |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-28-07, 04:16 PM | --That's fine. But, do you like the fact that in order to incorporate some of the underlying themes and concepts in the new 4e Core, some things are going to have to be shoehorned in, to a degree? No. :( My Realms will stay as is...unless I see something that I REALLY love and can make it work in the FR setting. -And, Rino, as always was right- the artwork was very nice in that book. I went to the bookstore to buy something else, and was flipping through it. I subsequently realized I locked my keys in my car, but that's a story for another day...Oi Vey... Ha! I was actually thinking of buying this book, myself. It's pretty substantial, so I'm thinking to myself, "Why not?" |
| johnkretzer12-28-07, 05:09 PM | Presuming that Saga edition is the template for 4e, then I don't see why a generalist couldn't be built quite easily by diversifying the talent tree selections. Nothing in there says that you can't take a few abilities from Consular, Guardian, or Sentinel talent trees that I saw, so I'm fairly sure it will probably be a similar case with wizards if its true among the force-users. I suspect making a generalist will be a bit more difficult in a lot of respects, but it wasn't really that easy in the first place if your DM didn't give you access to many different spell scrolls in the loot. As to the rest, I pretty much agree with GK on most of it, even if I still oppose a lot of the 4e Realms changes. From what I read in the preview book and other comments made by them that is not going to be possible in 4th edition. For instance alot of the necromancy, illusion, and mind control spells are going to be the restricted only to the base classes of necromancers, illusionists, and psions. That leads to me believe atleast it is going to be very hard and ineffectual to create a generalist wizard. I am also pretty much iffy on the whole talent tree design thing. I was not very impress with it in D20 mordern or Strar Wars Saga. |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 05:14 PM | From what I read in the preview book and other comments made by them that is not going to be possible in 4th edition. For instance alot of the necromancy, illusion, and mind control spells are going to be the restricted only to the base classes of necromancers, illusionists, and psions. Is there any reason to believe that you wouldn't be able to get those abilities through multiclassing? |
| Stigger12-28-07, 05:24 PM | Hmmm... I was pretty impressed with Star Wars: Saga myself, and quite liked the talent tree design. After messing around with it a bit it seemed like you could build two characters of the same class and come out with two very different beasts depending on where you went with talents, skills, and feats. Seemed very easy to build a character that was fairly well balanced, as well as one that was pretty specialized in a particular focus. Haven't tried D20 Modern, so really couldn't speak to that point. |
| Eli_the_Tanner12-28-07, 05:28 PM | 4) The new Skill system I am thinking is a giant step back. I don't mind them uniting some skills( like Spot and listen or Hide and move silently) but from the feeling I am getting they are going too far with this. Also I love skill points removing them from the game is a giant mistake. Is this confirmation that they are disposing with skill points in favour of a SAGA level-based Skill progression? I don't mind the consolidation of certain skills, but I find that the level based skill system leaves me feeling very unsatisfied. From playing SAGA I found that it's skills system is inflexible, limiting and discouraged variety. I for one hope they hold onto the rank-based skills, perhaps others who have played SAGA can share their thoughts on what I deem to be a disappointment among many other great ideas. |
| Stigger12-28-07, 05:40 PM | I rather liked the skill system myself. Then again, distributing skill points was the thing I hated most about 3e. Made for some very messy character sheets with too many unsightly eraser marks... that and the whole pain in the arse aspect of its juggling and balancing to not gimp yourself too badly. ;) |
| johnkretzer12-28-07, 06:56 PM | Is there any reason to believe that you wouldn't be able to get those abilities through multiclassing? Multiclassing is going to be very different...it is going to be feat based I believe is what was indicated. It also raises the complication factor in that wizards are going to cast differently then say a illusionist...as each class is going to have their own power souce. A illusionist spell is going to be very different then say a wizard's spell. It all depends on how different they are going to be I guess, but from my reading it will be diffitcult to make work together. |
| johnkretzer12-28-07, 06:58 PM | Hmmm... I was pretty impressed with Star Wars: Saga myself, and quite liked the talent tree design. After messing around with it a bit it seemed like you could build two characters of the same class and come out with two very different beasts depending on where you went with talents, skills, and feats. Seemed very easy to build a character that was fairly well balanced, as well as one that was pretty specialized in a particular focus. Haven't tried D20 Modern, so really couldn't speak to that point. When I converted a old star wars character to Saga it looked very different. Also I got the same level of cariability in 3rd edition witrhout overly specialization. |
| johnkretzer12-28-07, 07:02 PM | I rather liked the skill system myself. Then again, distributing skill points was the thing I hated most about 3e. Made for some very messy character sheets with too many unsightly eraser marks... that and the whole pain in the arse aspect of its juggling and balancing to not gimp yourself too badly. ;) I like 3e skill system as I felt it didn't only add 'cool' things that your character could do...it added depth to the character. Also it did alot to make characters of the same class different. And I never felt 'gimped' by spending skill points. The unsightly eraser marks...well that is true in part. I'll give you that. Though computers spreadsheets help with that...or just changing out the character sheet... |
| GreenKnight12-28-07, 07:11 PM | Multiclassing is going to be very different...it is going to be feat based I believe is what was indicated. It also raises the complication factor in that wizards are going to cast differently then say a illusionist...as each class is going to have their own power souce. A illusionist spell is going to be very different then say a wizard's spell. It all depends on how different they are going to be I guess, but from my reading it will be diffitcult to make work together. The power sources are Martial, Arcane, and Divine. They'll be adding others in, eventually (like Psi), but there's no reason to think that Illusionists will be anything but Arcane, just like Wizards. But why do you think it'd be difficult to multiclass? They're talking about making Ranger/Cleric/Wizards a viable multiclass option. If they can do that, then multiclassing Wizard/Illusionist/Necromancer or whatever other combination one has in mind should be easy by comparison. |
| johnkretzer12-28-07, 07:26 PM | The power sources are Martial, Arcane, and Divine. They'll be adding others in, eventually (like Psi), but there's no reason to think that Illusionists will be anything but Arcane, just like Wizards. But why do you think it'd be difficult to multiclass? They're talking about making Ranger/Cleric/Wizards a viable multiclass option. If they can do that, then multiclassing Wizard/Illusionist/Necromancer or whatever other combination one has in mind should be easy by comparison. Because they are also talking about Wujen being different, etc. We'll see. Again we will see howthe feats work out I guess...we don't know. My guess it is going to be diffitcult...you think not. We'll see. |
| Alediran12-28-07, 07:30 PM | Because they are also talking about Wujen being different, etc. We'll see. Again we will see howthe feats work out I guess...we don't know. My guess it is going to be diffitcult...you think not. We'll see. If they use the X class training feat to multiclass it can be a good way to make characters like Bladesingers. They also said that paragon paths are going to be close to PrCs. I just finished reading it (took me two hours). |
| Stigger12-28-07, 07:49 PM | I like 3e skill system as I felt it didn't only add 'cool' things that your character could do...it added depth to the character. Also it did alot to make characters of the same class different. And I never felt 'gimped' by spending skill points. The unsightly eraser marks...well that is true in part. I'll give you that. Though computers spreadsheets help with that...or just changing out the character sheet... From what I gather, feats are going to replace skill points, with stuff like skill focus and additional training (or something like that). Given the likely plethora of feats we'll have, that shouldn't be too much of an issue. As to being gimped, I was more referring to having to pick and choose carefully where to allocate them, as there were never enough with that Int Mod +2 thing wizards had, and a lot of the modifiers that went into it are gone, making it look a lot less like a massive equation and more like something I can just glance at and get what I need to know. From a player perspective I can see the appeal of skill points, but from a DM perspective I find the new system much more manageable in a shorter period of time. I think a lot of it depends on how you look at the system in Saga. If you just look at the face of it, as some collection of semi-related 'cool tricks' that you can whip out, then yes, it is very much an empty system. If you look at it as an opportunity to come up with in character reasonings as to why you have this ability, then it adds a great deal of depth. Certainly the depth isn't built-in, but I think that gives a great chance to come up with ideas for backstory and downtime. Hells, it even makes planning out your next level a bit more attractive an option, since you can do little things to lead up to taking that talent or bonus. Not that you couldn't in 3e as it was, but with the likely lack of 'dead' levels, its a constant opportunity rather than just an occassional one. |
| Eli_the_Tanner12-28-07, 09:15 PM | I rather liked the skill system myself. Then again, distributing skill points was the thing I hated most about 3e. Made for some very messy character sheets with too many unsightly eraser marks... that and the whole pain in the arse aspect of its juggling and balancing to not gimp yourself too badly. ;) Aye, the Saga system does make things a lot easier, and the retroactive compatibility is a godsend. It's very good from a DMing point of view. However I missed the ability to dabble in things, having a wide variety of things 'I've just picked up' along the way. I tend to craft my skill selection around what my character has done in the intervening levels - something that is lost with the new rules. Also the idea of everything increasing equally at a steady rate(barring skill focus, ability increase etc.) seems to remove the versimilitude from a characters development. It appears, to me, incongruous that a character could somehow get better at swimming or riding without ever seeing the sea or a horse in his entire life! Understandably physical ability will help (stats), as may do training in a similar field (Synergy) but beyond that I don't see what justifies a bonus without training(or at least exposure) |
| Mr_Miscellany12-28-07, 11:51 PM | That being said, I still dislike many of the changes from 2E to the 3E. And you're asking us to wholeheartedly trust these SAME designers? It seems like you're making a failing argument for yourself, here. ;) Just a minor nitpick: With the staffing purge that hit just prior to Eberron, many (but not all) of the main 2E to 3E designers and business people either left or were let go. ;) |
| Lord Karsus12-29-07, 01:37 AM | No. :( My Realms will stay as is...unless I see something that I REALLY love and can make it work in the FR setting. -Alright, so you basically agree with what I am saying, then! |
| johnkretzer12-29-07, 02:10 AM | From what I gather, feats are going to replace skill points, with stuff like skill focus and additional training (or something like that). Given the likely plethora of feats we'll have, that shouldn't be too much of an issue. As to being gimped, I was more referring to having to pick and choose carefully where to allocate them, as there were never enough with that Int Mod +2 thing wizards had, and a lot of the modifiers that went into it are gone, making it look a lot less like a massive equation and more like something I can just glance at and get what I need to know. From a player perspective I can see the appeal of skill points, but from a DM perspective I find the new system much more manageable in a shorter period of time. I think a lot of it depends on how you look at the system in Saga. If you just look at the face of it, as some collection of semi-related 'cool tricks' that you can whip out, then yes, it is very much an empty system. If you look at it as an opportunity to come up with in character reasonings as to why you have this ability, then it adds a great deal of depth. Certainly the depth isn't built-in, but I think that gives a great chance to come up with ideas for backstory and downtime. Hells, it even makes planning out your next level a bit more attractive an option, since you can do little things to lead up to taking that talent or bonus. Not that you couldn't in 3e as it was, but with the likely lack of 'dead' levels, its a constant opportunity rather than just an occassional one. I don't know I find skills help more with backstory and depth. But my two main problems are this... 1) The difference between untrained and trained are just 5 points. True they are a few things under the skills that you need to be trained to do but I think they should be more of a division. 2) Lets say at tenth level you spend the feat to learn survival( or 'nature' as it is called now) suddenly you are just as good as the character who has had it since 1st level? I find it unrealistic. As I said I find the new skill system to be too cookie cutter. And you really don't need all skills at max ranks to be effective with them... |
| Stigger12-29-07, 02:23 AM | I'm not sure how precise and true-to-life the skill system really has to be in a game that lets me hurl a fireball down the street, or leap 30' in the air with a blade of pure energy swinging around in my hand... ;) Though I do agree that if you're going for a more realistic, gritty sort of game, then 4e is going to suck massively for you in all likelihood. Personally, I'm getting to the point where I don't really care so much about realism as I do about ease of use. My players prefer to focus on the social/dramatic stuff most of the time as it is, so anything that lets me get the mechanics over quickly is a blessing really, having thought about it a bit. |
| Rauric12-29-07, 07:28 AM | I'm not sure how precise and true-to-life the skill system really has to be in a game that lets me hurl a fireball down the street, or leap 30' in the air with a blade of pure energy swinging around in my hand... ;) Though I do agree that if you're going for a more realistic, gritty sort of game, then 4e is going to suck massively for you in all likelihood. Personally, I'm getting to the point where I don't really care so much about realism as I do about ease of use. My players prefer to focus on the social/dramatic stuff most of the time as it is, so anything that lets me get the mechanics over quickly is a blessing really, having thought about it a bit. Same here. My players have played WOD games and D&D. WOD skills work for that system, but for my D&D games we needed something with less detail and something easier. "What is that creature guy?" "I don't know, I didn't take the Local Knowledge! Damn, who takes local?" I actually never try to play classes with low skill points because I like being able to do things well out of combat. Problem is D&D is a combat heavy games for most people. Hopefully fighters can be decently skilled in 4E. So can fighter's and non-skill monkeys do things besides smash face in 4E? |
| Lord Karsus12-29-07, 07:46 AM | I actually never try to play classes with low skill points because I like being able to do things well out of combat. -Same here. My first D&D character I ever made was a Fighter. Sure, it was fun being so great at combat, but a year or two into our campaign, my DM brought into the campaign a friend of his (and mine)- a cheating powergamer who, after playing 3e D&D for like, five years now, still doesn't know the rules. Anyway, now my Fighter was "second best", in terms of fighting, in the party. It was hard finding things to stand out and specialize in, with so few skill points. I eventually became an awesome Fighter once more once I got a Keen Vorpal Scimitar (which I already had Improved Critical for), but there was a lot of time when I was still trying to find my character's niche in the group. -A two-dimensional but fun character. Especially with that scimitar. So can fighter's and non-skill monkeys do things besides smash face in 4E? -Well, we know they'll be able to heal themselves, and possibly others. |
| GreenKnight12-29-07, 09:45 AM | That's one of the reasons why I tend to favor Paladins over Fighters (I also have a habit of taking skill heavy classes for one level. One level of Rogue or Aristocrat, for instance, before multiclassing into my main class). Skills like Diplomacy and Sense Motive, so that I can actually contribute outside of combat, other then glowering at some people. Even then I try to boost Int as much as possible to get even more skill points for skills like Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) and Knowledge (Religion). Another reason why I like Tome of Battle. Crusaders and Warblades come with 4 Skill Points instead of 2, and have access to skills like Diplomacy, Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Local), and Knowledge (Religion). And Intimidate, to boot, so I can still glower at people if I wanted to. :D |
| 18DELTA12-29-07, 10:18 AM | -Same here. My first D&D character I ever made was a Fighter. Sure, it was fun being so great at combat, but a year or two into our campaign, my DM brought into the campaign a friend of his (and mine)- a cheating powergamer who, after playing 3e D&D for like, five years now, still doesn't know the rules. Anyway, now my Fighter was "second best", in terms of fighting, in the party. It was hard finding things to stand out and specialize in, with so few skill points. I eventually became an awesome Fighter once more once I got a Keen Vorpal Scimitar (which I already had Improved Critical for), but there was a lot of time when I was still trying to find my character's niche in the group. -A two-dimensional but fun character. Especially with that scimitar. -Well, we know they'll be able to heal themselves, and possibly others. To bad your PC wasn't a dual wielding Drow huh?:P |
| GothicDan12-29-07, 10:26 AM | Just a minor nitpick: With the staffing purge that hit just prior to Eberron, many (but not all) of the main 2E to 3E designers and business people either left or were let go. Never fear! I love nitpicking. That being said, there's very few 'names' I recognize as really liking the work of, off the top of my head. All of my favorites are gone or freelancing. |
| Lord Karsus12-29-07, 10:35 AM | To bad your PC wasn't a dual wielding Drow huh?:P -At a point, I did use two scimitars (this is before I got the real cool one), because I couldn't decide which one I wanted more. A +3 Defending scimitar (for the AC bonus), or a +1 Frost Burst Scimitar of Frost (for the offensive capabilities). That was after I gave up the naginata. |
| MarkusTay6312-29-07, 11:39 AM | It's really hard to figure out what will be possible without seeing the entire rules. I'm thinking that if they go 'Saga', as many of you suspect, I might just bring back 2e 'Kits' to give PCs and NPCs backgrounds and detail. With those, we can add a lot of the lost skills back into the mix, without disturbing the game balance overmuch. Not sure how that will work, but I always felt Kits were mostly flavor, anyway. Also, we are going to get Feats at every level now, right? Perhaps if we multi, we loose the Feat for that level, which would help balance out the problems that we had in 3.0 with 'dipping'. In that way, we would gain the abilities of the new class, but lose out on that level's Feat. Just an idea... I'm not familiar with the Saga rules at all, so I can't really contribute much to this. |
| Stigger12-29-07, 02:23 PM | "Every other" for feats, which alternates with "every other" talents. |
| Diffan12-29-07, 02:47 PM | "Every other" for feats, which alternates with "every other" talents. True, it's much like it is in D20 modern. Talent trees were fun, but I didn't really understand the use of them in modern as the game is designed for you to 'Advance Class' as early as 3rd to 5th level. I'm sure it won't be the same for 4ED as the classes are designed to go straight through lvl 30. |
| johnkretzer12-29-07, 03:26 PM | I'm not sure how precise and true-to-life the skill system really has to be in a game that lets me hurl a fireball down the street, or leap 30' in the air with a blade of pure energy swinging around in my hand... ;). Sure....though there is a certain point where it just gets ridiculous... Though I do agree that if you're going for a more realistic, gritty sort of game, then 4e is going to suck massively for you in all likelihood. Personally, I'm getting to the point where I don't really care so much about realism as I do about ease of use. My players prefer to focus on the social/dramatic stuff most of the time as it is, so anything that lets me get the mechanics over quickly is a blessing really, having thought about it a bit. I can agree with that but I don't have that big of a issue with ease of use issue. Also with all the social rules introduce sorry but that stops being fun when it is more about the dice roll then what you say. Also most of what I am saying is that in this system skills really stop being meaningful to me in this system. There will be less skills and less of a difference between characters. It isn't so much about making characters realistic and gritty it is about making characters unquie... Besides one of the other things that bothers me is that one of the guys working on it doesn't even know how the 3e skill system works yet he wrote a piece on the 'problems' with it. Which seems kind of ignorant to me to discuss something that you don't even know.... |
| Stigger12-29-07, 05:13 PM | I don't think I've ever used much in the way of skill rolls for social stuff... unless my players were trying something really out there. For the most part, we tend to ignore them quite a bit, with the ranks/dots in them mostly serving as a guide for me guage how likely their tactics are to work. Just can't bring myself to start rolling dice in the middle of a conversation, since my players really get into it, so it works for us. For me, and this is purely a personal issue, the mechanics of a character don't matter much when it comes to making them unique. That's the function of the player and the personality and life they bring to the character at the table or in their writings on them, and isn't something that I think can be quantified with stats, so it doesn't bother me in the slightest that this stuff closes the gaps between characters. Maybe its just because I have a long-term group and we know each other by now, and trust each other not to try to 'get over' on each other, but for me skills are simply something that tells me whether the stuff they try is likely to work or not, and if suitably easy to the characters level, I don't even bother with rolls most of the time, preferring to keep the narrative interaction going rather than stopping and rolling. Combat is a little different of course, but for the rest of it the fun and the story is what matters more to me, so the new skill system suits me just fine in that respect. Obviously you have a different take on it, so it probably won't work for you, and I agree that you're probably going to be screwed with 4e, assuming you even bother with it, unless you keep 3e's skill points and figure out a way to integrate it. Which really sucks for you, and I'm sorry about that, but it works pretty well for me, so I'm happy about that. Seems happy mediums are getting rarer and rarer, even in RPGs. Just too much getting polarized these days for my liking. |
| Eli_the_Tanner12-29-07, 06:55 PM | Also most of what I am saying is that in this system skills really stop being meaningful to me in this system. There will be less skills and less of a difference between characters. It isn't so much about making characters realistic and gritty it is about making characters unquie... Hear! Hear! This is what I don't like about the system, the generic-ness of it all. It seems to breed uniformity. I'm sorry Stigger, I feel dirty disagreeing with you. I'm afraid for me the gains in ease of use (which are considerable) don't outweigh the losses in customisability and character flexibility. It does seems to be a personal preference really, as on the whole I like the SAGA system. |
| Stigger12-29-07, 08:36 PM | Heh, lots of people disagree with me, I'm pretty used to it by now. :D I know I was pretty disgusted with 4e a while back, and as far as the Realms is concerned, I'm still pretty livid with the idea of it, but at some point along the way, I came to appreciate some of the things that 4e seems to be bringing to the table. There's only so much uniqueness that any game system can allow before collapsing under its own weight, and while I certainly don't think that 3.5e is close to that point, I can also appreciate that uniqueness isn't represented in stats, its represented in the players imagination, stats be damned, so the generic aspects of 4e just aren't bothering me as much as they might have even a month ago. I suppose it could be argued that the stat issue is going to encourage bland conformity, but it could also really push people into actually Role Playing if only to seperate themselves from the rest of the pack. People like feeling unique and special, and so if you take away a way to do that via mechanics, then it could just push them into really getting into their characters heads to do it. Or it could have just the opposite reaction. Or maybe neither one. But the potential there is something I find intriguing for the future of the game. |
| johnkretzer12-29-07, 11:55 PM | I don't think I've ever used much in the way of skill rolls for social stuff... unless my players were trying something really out there. For the most part, we tend to ignore them quite a bit, with the ranks/dots in them mostly serving as a guide for me guage how likely their tactics are to work. Just can't bring myself to start rolling dice in the middle of a conversation, since my players really get into it, so it works for us. This is how we handle it as well...which is what confuses me about when people say things like fighters are useless out of combat. I mean are you a mute if you don't have ranks in diplomacy? For me, and this is purely a personal issue, the mechanics of a character don't matter much when it comes to making them unique. That's the function of the player and the personality and life they bring to the character at the table or in their writings on them, and isn't something that I think can be quantified with stats, so it doesn't bother me in the slightest that this stuff closes the gaps between characters. I agree with you here...though it is nice when mechanics support it. Maybe its just because I have a long-term group and we know each other by now, and trust each other not to try to 'get over' on each other, but for me skills are simply something that tells me whether the stuff they try is likely to work or not, and if suitably easy to the characters level, I don't even bother with rolls most of the time, preferring to keep the narrative interaction going rather than stopping and rolling. Combat is a little different of course, but for the rest of it the fun and the story is what matters more to me, so the new skill system suits me just fine in that respect. To me skills are ways to build a character...Having a couple ranks in a skill means you are slightly trained in it. I.E. you have a interest. It fleshes out characters better. Obviously you have a different take on it, so it probably won't work for you, and I agree that you're probably going to be screwed with 4e, assuming you even bother with it, unless you keep 3e's skill points and figure out a way to integrate it. Which really sucks for you, and I'm sorry about that, but it works pretty well for me, so I'm happy about that. Seems happy mediums are getting rarer and rarer, even in RPGs. Just too much getting polarized these days for my liking. That is what is annoying me. You could easily take the current skill system and make it what you want it to be. I have to reverse engineer it...it is much more work. But I agree there is way too much polarization with this edition. |
| johnkretzer12-30-07, 12:01 AM | Heh, lots of people disagree with me, I'm pretty used to it by now. :D I know I was pretty disgusted with 4e a while back, and as far as the Realms is concerned, I'm still pretty livid with the idea of it, but at some point along the way, I came to appreciate some of the things that 4e seems to be bringing to the table. There's only so much uniqueness that any game system can allow before collapsing under its own weight, and while I certainly don't think that 3.5e is close to that point, I can also appreciate that uniqueness isn't represented in stats, its represented in the players imagination, stats be damned, so the generic aspects of 4e just aren't bothering me as much as they might have even a month ago. I suppose it could be argued that the stat issue is going to encourage bland conformity, but it could also really push people into actually Role Playing if only to seperate themselves from the rest of the pack. People like feeling unique and special, and so if you take away a way to do that via mechanics, then it could just push them into really getting into their characters heads to do it. Or it could have just the opposite reaction. Or maybe neither one. But the potential there is something I find intriguing for the future of the game. The things is that more people will go with the path of least resistance. They will take the easy way out. I don't think it will really change anything. People who flesh out characters will still do...people who don't will not. I think that is my largest issue here they are trying to fix things with rules that just won't work. All they are doing is taking is making the game to suit fewer styles of play. |
| Elbereth_Silverleaf12-30-07, 12:51 AM | I bought the book, kept my receipt, let 3 friends read it, then returned the book to the store. The iced mocha I bought with my refund for 4-5 dollars was worth more than a $20.00 advertisement in book form. I should have done what I saw most of the HS and college kids doing and just sat in a cushy chair or at the coffee shop and read the book and not even wasted the time to buy it. |
| Suin Bahhar12-30-07, 07:08 AM | Skills your character maxxed will look abit more like proficiencies in 4ed as I understood. They will be represented by skill training i.e. a reroll on the skill check...On the charcter sheat this will take less bookkeeping space and look like the old proficiency system, i.e. a list of skill names. This is one of the most bitter pills to swallow with 4ed as I liked the introduction of the skill system in 3ed as I found proficiencies too stable as they didnot increase easily. Fortunately this new system has potential as it has a better vision of skill growth and enhancements from racial or class abilities. |
| Lord Karsus12-30-07, 08:02 AM | This is how we handle it as well...which is what confuses me about when people say things like fighters are useless out of combat. I mean are you a mute if you don't have ranks in diplomacy? -No, but when you want to haggle (Diplomacy), or lead someone's conversation (Gather Information), or threaten them (Intimidate), there are invariably people in the group much better suited to do it. Mind you, I think that's a good thing, but it's often a bummer when you are a Fighter who wants to do more than just smash. I should have done what I saw most of the HS and college kids doing and just sat in a cushy chair or at the coffee shop and read the book and not even wasted the time to buy it. -That's what I did, albeit standing. |
| Eli_the_Tanner12-30-07, 08:24 AM | I bought the book, kept my receipt, let 3 friends read it, then returned the book to the store. Genius! Heh, lots of people disagree with me, I'm pretty used to it by now. :D I find that, for some reason, nearly all the posts I've read of yours I end up agreeing with. You just seem to make alot of sense to me. I know I was pretty disgusted with 4e a while back, and as far as the Realms is concerned, I'm still pretty livid with the idea of it, but at some point along the way, I came to appreciate some of the things that 4e seems to be bringing to the table. There's only so much uniqueness that any game system can allow before collapsing under its own weight, and while I certainly don't think that 3.5e is close to that point, I can also appreciate that uniqueness isn't represented in stats, its represented in the players imagination, stats be damned, so the generic aspects of 4e just aren't bothering me as much as they might have even a month ago. Sounds like the 7 stages of coping with a new edition: - Shock or Disbelief: I can't believe they would do this! - Denial: I'll never change, I'm going to play 3.x till I die!! - Anger: DIE 4ED DIE!! - Bargaining: I don't mind the talent trees and the spellcasting system looks really good....but I want to keep my 3.5 skills. - Guilt: If only I'd bought more 3.x sourcebooks then maybe we wouldn't need to convert. - Depression: Why carry on! I might aswell just pack the whole thing in. - Acceptance and Hope - It's coming and we know it, who knows it might even be better....Ooh! I like what they've done with the races. I think I'm somewhere between anger and bargaininng. I suppose it could be argued that the stat issue is going to encourage bland conformity, but it could also really push people into actually Role Playing if only to seperate themselves from the rest of the pack. People like feeling unique and special, and so if you take away a way to do that via mechanics, then it could just push them into really getting into their characters heads to do it. Or it could have just the opposite reaction. Or maybe neither one. But the potential there is something I find intriguing for the future of the game. If it does help to increase role-playing then that would be good. It's a shame that people would ever need to be forced into Role-playing! I don't like the philosophy that if it's not neccasary to your character being 'cool' or 'useful' then it has no place in stats. No more odd ranks in Proffession(road sweeper) or dabbling in Perform....ho-hum. I guess I'm of the similar wait and see attitude, and overall I'm looking forward to 4ed, there are just one or two directions which I think run counter to what D&D is. Phew! It seems I agree with you after all.(fundamentally anyway) |
| Suin Bahhar12-30-07, 08:43 AM | -No, but when you want to haggle (Diplomacy), or lead someone's conversation (Gather Information), or threaten them (Intimidate), there are invariably people in the group much better suited to do it.I like your interpretation on gather information, a skill I always struggled with to implement role play wise. |
| Lord Karsus12-30-07, 09:10 AM | I like your interpretation on gather information, a skill I always struggled with to implement role play wise. -I use it in two ways. The first way is the stereotypical walking around, sitting around, whatever, listening to other people's conversations. The second way is talking to someone, picking a topic and then leading it in such a manner that the person in question begins talking about/mentioning whatever it is you want to hear, without them knowing/realizing that's what you are actually interested in. |
| Suin Bahhar12-30-07, 09:23 AM | See in my game you could be using bluff then too. A bit blurry lines there in my view. |
| Lord Karsus12-30-07, 10:01 AM | See in my game you could be using bluff then too. A bit blurry lines there in my view. -Well, blurry lines are good, though. It's realistic. In real life, to get information out of someone, you could be nice to them (Diplomacy), you could be mean to them (Intimidate), you could be tricky, and trick the information out of them (Bluff), you could verbally spar and lead the conversation where you want it (Gather Information), and so on. There's a million ways to get the same exact answer. |
| Eli_the_Tanner12-30-07, 10:23 AM | -Well, blurry lines are good, though. It's realistic. In real life, to get information out of someone, you could be nice to them (Diplomacy), you could be mean to them (Intimidate), you could be tricky, and trick the information out of them (Bluff), you could verbally spar and lead the conversation where you want it (Gather Information), and so on. There's a million ways to get the same exact answer. Maybe this will all be bundled into one skill in 4ed, +10 Interact anyone? |
| Lord Karsus12-30-07, 10:30 AM | Maybe this will all be bundled into one skill in 4ed, +10 Interact anyone? -I hope not. There are a million ways to do some things, sure, but some people are better at certain ways than others. I, for example, don't like blatently asking people for things. If I see you eating potato chips, and am hungry, I'd never say anything. I might, however, bring up potato chips in the conversation, prompting the person to offer me some chips. Depending on the person, I'd accept them. -I could have obtained chips by demanding them (Intimidate). "Give me some chips!". I could have obtained chips by being nice about it (Diplomacy). "Can I have some chips, please?". And so on. |
| Elbereth_Silverleaf12-30-07, 02:18 PM | If it were simply an issue of wanting to improve game mechanics and overhaul a somewhat outdated magic system, I could support HasbroWotC. But the complete slash & burn method of destroying races, societies, cultures & civilizations while "introducing" new races and cutures who have never existed in anyway whatsoever, without any "logical" (I realize this is fantasy, but still...) reason for them "popping" into a full fleged major part of the RPG is ludicrous in the extreme. It literally REEKS of Marketing and the bean-counters trying to push totally unneeded k00l & n33t products on kids, meanwhile forcing the rest of us to buy the new dung to stay current. If I wanted to play The World of Darkness or Mage the Ascension,with all their Seelie and UnSeelie maunderings, I would go buy the books and find a compatible group. I understand Hasbro has now put most of its eggs in the Eberron quasimedieval/steampunk basket but ..."come on"! I guess we all have to look forward to shelling out shekels for the brand spanking new $45.00 core books, along with a whole new cycle of $35.00 rehashes of all the 2ed, 3ed and 3.5ed updated for 4ed. I can only wonder when 4.5 ed will appear??? |
| MarkusTay6312-30-07, 02:44 PM | Is this truly nothing more then an advertisement with a price tag?! :confused: I bought the book, kept my receipt, let 3 friends read it, then returned the book to the store. The iced mocha I bought with my refund for 4-5 dollars was worth more than a $20.00 advertisement in book form. I should have done what I saw most of the HS and college kids doing and just sat in a cushy chair or at the coffee shop and read the book and not even wasted the time to buy it.Here's the thing - the GHotR was supposed to be for FREE originally, put up as part of the DI or as a web-enhancement, for all to enjoy for FREE. Then some greed-ball bean-counter decided to sell it to us intsead, because... what the hell... we've proven that we'll buy anything with the FR logo on it, including a book that was mostly re-printed material and ENTIRELY re-used art. Also, it was available for FREE for over a year by the author! <absolutely NO disrepect meant against Brian James, who I completely respect and admire> Now, we have what is apparently the 'lost' December issue of Dragon magazine, that we were promised (once again) for FREE. I can't prove this, but months ago they said we'd be preveiwing the Races and Classes in Dec's FREE D&D Insider. Hmmmmm.... the Dec issue somehow manages to 'disappear', while a tome that is nothing more then 'coming attractions' about the SAME SUBJECT MATTER reares its head the SAME month?! :noway: I think that same Greed-ball Bean-counter is at it again... :banghead: FOUL! I cry... I'm tired of WotC calling me a friggin idiot. Unless someone can prove to me that this is actually going to be useful somehow in running a game, then I will continue to believe someone, somewhere decided to SELL US what we were promised for FREE!!! One of the few things I was sure about in 4e was that I was going to shell out for the DI, but now I just don't think so. My stomache is too busy turning over this. What next? :bored: |
| Elbereth_Silverleaf12-30-07, 03:14 PM | I truly think that a lot of this is stemming from marketing types whose only RPG experience is WOW type CPRGs, or come from RPG groups that never started their characters out at 1st - 3rd levels. (I have absolutely nothing against WOW, I work in the IT field and a lot of the younger part-timers and a few salaried and full-timer types play the game.) When I explain to a coworker (usually a college kid) that it took me a little over 2 years to get my Sun Elven Cleric/Mage to a total of 20 lvls their jaws drop! They're bragging about their 40th lvl Bloodelf and that it took only 6 months. |
| Storm_Silverhand12-30-07, 06:00 PM | Heya, When I explain to a coworker (usually a college kid) that it took me a little over 2 years to get my Sun Elven Cleric/Mage to a total of 20 lvls their jaws drop! They're bragging about their 40th lvl Bloodelf and that it took only 6 months. Six months? They're slow... Took me about 6 months to get a new character to level 58 or so... And I know I could have done it faster. There were leveling guides that could get a character to level 60 or so in just over 4 days /played (that means time spent online, that may have been in multiple sessions of several hours over the course of a month or two, if that makes sense). Also, I have to say this about leveling in Dungeons and Dragons... 20 levels in 2 years is slow for a DnD game, IMHO, some others, though, might say it was fast. I've been running a game for just over six months now, and the characters are approximately (without looking at the character sheets) level 12... I don't forsee it taking any more than three months (playing an 8 hour game once a month) for them to reach 20. Most MMORPG players are playing for a few hours every day. I'm sure if someone was playing one single campaign of DnD for a few hours every day, the rate of levels per year would dramatically increase. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that people play at different rates, and there's nothing wrong with that what so ever. There is no single correct way to play. Edited to add: WoW character progression is not identical to DnD progression, so to compare the two is pointless really. |
| Alkasyn12-30-07, 06:37 PM | Edited to add: WoW character progression is not identical to DnD progression, so to compare the two is pointless really. The two are completely different, I agree. Me and my party for example, enjoy playing on low levels, to be honest. We like the feeling of being important, but not important enough to be burdened with the affairs of the whole planet. DnD in my case is not about gaining levels, as a good DM can make even a low level game enjoyable and challenging. |
| Stigger12-30-07, 06:52 PM | Eli, if what I say makes sense to you, go now and seek out professional help before they come looking for you... :blink: :D Seriously though, thinking about, I think MT raised a good point there. For now, I'm thinking I'll pick up the DMG and PHB for scamming ideas off of, and then coming up with the rest on my own by making 4e stuff compatible with the Storyteller/3.x hybrid I've been synthesizing. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-30-07, 07:08 PM | -Alright, so you basically agree with what I am saying, then! How could I not, my Lord?;) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-30-07, 07:15 PM | Oh, by the way, I just bought Races and Classes and I think it was money well-spent.:) Then again, I am looking forward to the 4E rules and core setting, if not the 4E Realms. |
| MarkusTay6312-30-07, 07:17 PM | Thanks Stig - you and are are usually on the same page. ;) As far as WoW characters go - I was able to run one up to 60 in a week. That requires about 12 hours a day of grinding, with some help from Guildies. Also, being a complete loser with NO life helps. :P Of all the D&D games I've played in, only one got above level 12. We were all between 18-25, and that took about five years of sparodic game play with a generous DM. When I DM, I usually try to leave everyone at lev 2 by the end of the first adventure (usually, a single session). Then the level progression slows down - the 3rd taking about two weeks, the 4th a month, the 5th two months, etc... I figure at the end of the year, I'd like everyone to be around level 10, and then I can start crankin' up the encounter levels and changing the focus to more thought-provoking game (political stuff, guilds, etc...). If the game continues at that point, I figure about a level every six months or so. Once the opportunities to RP go up at higher levels, I award more points for problem solving with a 'lighter' touch. If people still try to 'bully' their way through the higher levels, they wind up leveling much slower, so it all works out in the end. But thats just the way I learned the game - I know plenty of people who treat D&D like a MORPG and hand out EP like it was going out of style. |
| GreenKnight12-30-07, 07:25 PM | Oh, by the way, I just bought Races and Classes and I think it was money well-spent.:) Then again, I am looking forward to the 4E rules and core setting, if not the 4E Realms. Glad to hear you vouch for it. :) I went ahead and ordered both it and the Annotated Elminster from Amazon yesterday. Can't wait to get them, both (I also ordered The Orc King along with Worlds and Monsters). As for WoW, it took me a little over a month to hit Level 40 (I was trying to get my horse before my free time ran out), and another month or so to hit Level 53. That was shortly before Burning Crusade came out, but I didn't bother to pick it up, as I was REALLY sick of WoW by then. Bad enough that a lot of the game content is dependent on having to team, but that was only made worse when team members constantly dropped out, leaving you in the lurch. Irritating. Why I prefer City of Heroes, as far as MMORPG's go. The only missions you need to team on are Task Force Missions and Trials and such, and there're only about two dozen of those. |
| Straploknight12-30-07, 07:29 PM | That made me laugh. Hard. No more off-topic posts from me. :) indeed |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-30-07, 07:31 PM | Glad to hear you vouch for it. :) I went ahead and ordered both it and the Annotated Elminster from Amazon yesterday. Can't wait to get them, both (I also ordered The Orc King along with Worlds and Monsters). I think you'll enjoy those books. :) The artwork in Races and Classes is especially beautiful. |
| MarkusTay6312-30-07, 07:46 PM | Are you justifying them because of excellent artwork? :confused: Or is there actually something substantial between the pages? In other words, is this tome useful, or will it be completely irrelevent once we have the 4e rules in our hands? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-30-07, 07:52 PM | Are you justifying them because of excellent artwork? :confused: No, I'm just saying I thought the artwork was nice. Or is there actually something substantial between the pages? I think so, but again I actually like what I'm hearing with regards to the rules and the core setting. There's a lot of neat behind-the-scenes information in it, too. If someone totally hates 4E, period (and I know there are some people like that here:) ) this book probably isn't worth it for them. In other words, is this tome useful, or will it be completely irrelevent once we have the 4e rules in our hands? I can't answer that. All I'm saying is I liked the book enough to actually buy it. That's really all the justification *I* need for myself. As for everyone else, it's YOUR money to spend. Caveat emptor. |
| Mr_Miscellany12-30-07, 08:10 PM | Here's the thing - the GHotR was supposed to be for FREE originally, put up as part of the DI or as a web-enhancement, for all to enjoy for FREE. It already was free, as you know. Anyone could go to the creator's original website for it and DL it. I have my copy saved to this day. Then some greed-ball bean-counter decided to sell it to us intsead, because... what the hell... we've proven that we'll buy anything with the FR logo on it, including a book that was mostly re-printed material and ENTIRELY re-used art. Also, it was available for FREE for over a year by the author! Why are you disrespecting so many Realms fans, Markus? Why are you disprespecting the GHotR and its primary author? And why are you forgetting the forward to that very same book, which clearly shows that WotC recoginzed the Grand History was a work of quality; a work worth publishing. We all have our bad days, but sheesh man, chill out. |
| MarkusTay6312-30-07, 09:36 PM | Sorry, but I am convinced that this tome WAS the promised December edition of the DI, and they decided they did such a nice job on it that they'd make a buck off it. Nothing anyone can say will convince me otherwise. :( I'm also convinced that all the nifty artwork you guys are gushing over will also be IN the new core books. I plan to buy THOSE books, so why should I WASTE my money on a sneak-preview? It makes absolutely no sense to me. This book serves no purpose what-so-ever, except to 'throw us a bone' until the real rules are finished. I'm glad Rinonalyrna (that name is a chore to type!) was satisfied with her purchase, but I for one simply don't care enough about the designers 'insights' to shell out $20, just so they can 'gush' about how clever they are. And besides, I work right next store to a Borders now, so I can read this on my lunch hour. There simply is no need to have a preview taking up room on my bookshelf. This thread has gotten me interested in the Saga rules, though. :D |
| Rauric12-30-07, 09:37 PM | I like that it is in written form. I rather read a book on the couch than at my PC. |
| MarkusTay6312-30-07, 09:40 PM | True... VERY true.... |
| Storm_Silverhand12-30-07, 09:58 PM | Heya, Of all the D&D games I've played in, only one got above level 12. We were all between 18-25, and that took about five years of sparodic game play with a generous DM. When I DM, I usually try to leave everyone at lev 2 by the end of the first adventure (usually, a single session). Then the level progression slows down - the 3rd taking about two weeks, the 4th a month, the 5th two months, etc... I figure at the end of the year, I'd like everyone to be around level 10, and then I can start crankin' up the encounter levels and changing the focus to more thought-provoking game (political stuff, guilds, etc...). If the game continues at that point, I figure about a level every six months or so. Once the opportunities to RP go up at higher levels, I award more points for problem solving with a 'lighter' touch. If people still try to 'bully' their way through the higher levels, they wind up leveling much slower, so it all works out in the end. But thats just the way I learned the game - I know plenty of people who treat D&D like a MORPG and hand out EP like it was going out of style. I couldn't stand that rate of leveling, MT. (Have you ever considered that the leveling rate might be the reason why your games don't progress much beyond level 12?) I don't hand out XP like it's going out of style, but I do make sure that players are rewarded for good RPing. Much of the last few sessions of my game have been entirely ad libbed on my behalf because I've just been too frantically busy to do much more than write a short list of notes on what I want to see happen in the session... that actually means that there were one or two sessions where the player's didn't encounter any monsters... But they still got XP. I suppose it's just different styles of play. As for WoW, it took me a little over a month to hit Level 40 (I was trying to get my horse before my free time ran out), and another month or so to hit Level 53. That was shortly before Burning Crusade came out, but I didn't bother to pick it up, as I was REALLY sick of WoW by then. Bad enough that a lot of the game content is dependent on having to team, but that was only made worse when team members constantly dropped out, leaving you in the lurch. Irritating. Why I prefer City of Heroes, as far as MMORPG's go. The only missions you need to team on are Task Force Missions and Trials and such, and there're only about two dozen of those. WoW? Needs a group? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Oh, I'm sorry. That really, really really really hit my funny bone. I have rarely ever grouped in WoW. It is entirely possible to go from level 1 to level 70 solo... You might not end up with the best gear, but you will get fairly close to it, especially if you PvP in the BGs. The lack of necessary grouping in WoW is something that quite a few people have criticized... |
| MarkusTay6312-30-07, 11:07 PM | Sorry about going off topic, but I do get back to it toward the end - My games are also not combat heavy, but I think if every Tom, Dick, and Harry could get to level 25 in under five years, then there would be a helluva lot MORE high-level NPCs in FR then are complained about. In fact, if it were that easy, then Elminster should be somewhere around level 500! I also use the 'law of diminishing returns', which I believe was actually covered in one of the options books. The first time they do something, or encounter a monster, they get DOUBLE EP for it. The second time, normal EP. The third time - 1/2, the fourth 1/4... You don't get the same EP for the 1000th Orc you kill, as you do for your very first. I don't do a lot of bookeeping, but I do have an excellent memory. :D This means it becomes harder to gain experience unless you are actually experiencing NEW things. WoW Anyhow, you can't run instances without a group in WoW, and thats a major part of the game. I know... I played an entire year without a guild and only did Instance 15-20 levels under mine, which doesn't net very good items. You want the "Phat Lootz", then you gotta party up. ;) BTW, something Miscelleny said earlier in the thread sticks in my mind - the priests giving Buffs and dropping DOTS (damage over time spells) sounds SO WoW it's not even funny. DOTS are what Warlocks and Priests are all about in that game, so it leads me to think the new rules are indeed leaning heavily toward the WoW rules. Not that thats a bad thing... I like WoW... but I don't want to have to get my Fishing up to 300! Cooking, on the other hand, I liked a LOT... :P |
| Lord Karsus12-30-07, 11:09 PM | How could I not, my Lord?;) -That's the spirit! :thumbsup: It already was free, as you know. Anyone could go to the creator's original website for it and DL it. I have my copy saved to this day. -It's not there anymore, you know. * Warning * * Warning* Sensors detect criticism of Wizards of the Coast and/or Wizards of the Coast's business practices * Warning * *Warning * |
| GreenKnight12-30-07, 11:21 PM | WoW? Needs a group? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Oh, I'm sorry. That really, really really really hit my funny bone. I have rarely ever grouped in WoW. It is entirely possible to go from level 1 to level 70 solo... You might not end up with the best gear, but you will get fairly close to it, especially if you PvP in the BGs. The lack of necessary grouping in WoW is something that quite a few people have criticized... Maybe that's lately, but at the time, it was nearly impossible to complete any of the open quests I had. I've have about 20 in my quest book, and at most, I could complete 4-5 solo. The rest I either had to get a group to help me complete them, or I had to go grind so I could level once or twice and then do them solo. But by that point, I was higher level then the quest was intended to be played at, and so I got a mediocre amount of XP from it. It was ridiculous, the number of quests I got which were simply out of reach. And that's discounting the Zul'Farrak and the like which can't be done solo no matter what. |
| MarkusTay6312-30-07, 11:22 PM | Sensors detect criticism of Wizards of the Coast and/or Wizards of the Coast's business practicesI've already been chastised once today... didn't know 'turd' was considered inappropriate language. :rolleyes: Ooops... I just said it again... I await my banning now. :P |
| Mr_Miscellany12-30-07, 11:22 PM | -It's not there anymore, you know.[/I] Oh I know. I know. And that's fine by me. Better the guy that busted his ass putting it together should get paid for it, IMNSHO. didn't know '****' was considered inappropriate language. As you rightly know, Markus, context is everything. I wouldn't want my name linked to that word in the manner you linked it to someone else's. I await my banning now. Tempting..... ;) |
| MarkusTay6312-30-07, 11:26 PM | Go ahead... I'll rise to Martyrdom on Enworld... :devil: |
| Lord Karsus12-30-07, 11:28 PM | I await my banning now. :P -That would be so not cool. |
| GreenKnight12-30-07, 11:29 PM | My games are also not combat heavy, but I think if every Tom, Dick, and Harry could get to level 25 in under five years, then there would be a helluva lot MORE high-level NPCs in FR then are complained about. In fact, if it were that easy, then Elminster should be somewhere around level 500! What you gotta remember is that, in a living, breathing world, not everyone is going to be presented with "a challenging encounter appropriate to their level". In a living breathing Realms, there's no guarantee that a party of 1st-Level characters will only run into handfuls of Orcs and Goblins at a time. They're just as likely to run into a couple of Hill Giants who're only to glad to put a quick end to their adventuring careers. Likewise, high-level characters like Drizzt aren't guaranteed to run into Mind Flayers and Mariliths on a consistent basis. They may end up spending a lot of time fighting plain old Orcs, which are worthless as far as XP is concerned. In that regard, the players are outside of the norm, as they end up fighting bad guys who're tough enough to challenge them, but never tough enough to beat them. And they do this all the time. Every single fight is a challenge. It's never a massacre, and rarely if ever something they can sleepwalk through. Not that thats a bad thing... I like WoW... but I don't want to have to get my Fishing up to 300! Cooking, on the other hand, I liked a LOT... If I had known then what I know now, I would've taken Skinning instead of Blacksmithing. What a gold sink THAT was! I was making a nice chunk of change off of my mining skill, but every single bit of that gold went towards developing my mining skill, and THEN some! |
| MarkusTay6312-30-07, 11:43 PM | Skinning and Herbalism, for the win! :dancin: My best money-making character was just that - all my 'manufacturing' types spent ALL of their drops/finds on making stuff - stuff that rarely would be desired by other players (except for those Warbear Woolies - I made out like a bandit producing those!) You make far more money off of selling the mats to the folks who are trying to level their skills. I know, I had a 300 in EVERYTHING spread amongst my characters, and even had two Enchanters with that (to double my Mooncloth production). Trust me - sell the mats and let others do the work. I wouldn't want my name linked to that word in the manner you linked it to someone else's.Thats not even really a bad word; I used it BECAUSE I was making a joke. And I wasn't belittling the person in question - in fact, I was alluding to the worth of his 'refuse'. :D Although I really don't see that particular item become "collector worthy" - even Ed Greenwood's. :yuck: But ya never know... people will buy just about anything these days... just look at E-Bay. EDIT: Also, I purposely put a certain disclaimer in blue, just so everyone knows I was NOT putting down the GHotR, but rather the way in which it was turned from a free resource into a money-maker. Brian had very little to do with THAT decision, although I am sure he was quite happy about it. The other point is, I'm VERY pro-4e rules, because I like what I'm hearing in that regard, so my vitriol against this 'preview' is not meant in any way to cast stones against the new edition - merely at the way in which they are forcing us to pay for information, after creating a situation in which we are desiring answers. Its all very self-fulfilling, and leaves a VERY bad taste in my mouth. I keep 'hearing' about how the designers are all Realms fans and gamers, but so far all I see is businessmen out to make a quick buck. Nothing wrong with making money... just the methods you use to do it. |
| johnkretzer12-31-07, 12:42 AM | If someone totally hates 4E, period (and I know there are some people like that here:) ) this book probably isn't worth it for them. Well to be honest I generaly hate everything I have seen from 4th edition...but I think the book has value. What makes the decision rather I convert or not is how much are the mechanics are tied into thier vision of a D&D world. This books has given me some ideas about the work ahead...for instance I already know I'll have to create a elven race to fit high elves. Also I agree I think the art is leaps and bounds better then 3.x(well except the tiefling weapons...I mean seriously do they actualy think those are viable weapon designs?). Though I still liked 1st edition art the most of all the editions. But again I would suggest sharing it with your fellow gamers as I do think it is very overprice...but then again overpriced books are the reason I think there sales are down. |
| Reneshat12-31-07, 01:00 AM | MT, they mentioned that they were going to put out preview books way back around GenCon. When I read there was going to be a Races and Classes preview, I had already read that the first preview book was going to be on Races and Classes, so I just assumed the preview was a preview of the product, which it was. I guess it's just a matter of what all you catch that they say, but I don't think it was EVER their intention to release this all for free, seeing how they said it would be available in a book many months ago. |
| Mr_Miscellany12-31-07, 02:10 AM | I was there as well. No surprises here. :::::::::::: Markus, you're just digging a deeper hole. Anything short of, “Yeah...I prolly shouldn’t have said that.” is just excuses. |
| Stigger12-31-07, 02:14 AM | Even had I heard that, I still see absolutely no reason to essentially pay for seeing what amounts to an advertisement... just can't bring myself to spend money, much less scarce shelf space for something I'm only going to read once or twice. |
| Lord Karsus12-31-07, 02:16 AM | -Agreed. While it's nice to have little hints and whatnot as to what's in store, once 4e is actually released, unless you want to go back and see what they were thinking, at the time, the book is mostly pointless. -This is the book you get someone else, as a gift. Not for yourself. ;) |
| 18DELTA12-31-07, 02:30 AM | This thread has gotten me interested in the Saga rules, though. :D Yes, Saga is an awesome game system.:D I love Star Ships of the Galaxy. I got it the day it came out, along with R/C, and Dragons of Eberron at the FLGS. I was getting the other two books and saw that little bundle of joy, and I had too make it mine!!! It was the last one on the day it came out. You should really check out the Star Wars Forum's. Old Sage goes there to.:) I like how you can take a Noble, and with a few feat's and Talents create a Jedi without taking the Jedi class. That is probably how 4E will work. Plus everything is based off character level and not class level in Saga. I can see that carrying over into 4E. I am hyped about 4E, 4E Realms I am still in wait and see mode.:waits: |
| Reneshat12-31-07, 03:35 AM | -This is the book you get someone else, as a gift. Not for yourself. ;) That's the way my girlfriend and I looked at it. It's much easier to justify getting ripped off that way. |
| Lord Karsus12-31-07, 04:12 AM | That's the way my girlfriend and I looked at it. It's much easier to justify getting ripped off that way. -Heh, yeah. |
| Eli_the_Tanner12-31-07, 07:51 AM | What you gotta remember is that, in a living, breathing world, not everyone is going to be presented with "a challenging encounter appropriate to their level". In a living breathing Realms, there's no guarantee that a party of 1st-Level characters will only run into handfuls of Orcs and Goblins at a time. They're just as likely to run into a couple of Hill Giants who're only to glad to put a quick end to their adventuring careers. Heh. We use the full Forgotten Relams encounter tables. That very encounter happened to my old group of level 4 characters one day whilst travelling to Sundabr. They were off to some nearby abandoned mines in our trusty wagon(we were there for the treasure!). We ended up turning our wagon over as our characters argued over who bought such a small wagon and the real worth of plundering some mines which had been abandoned(probably for good reason). All the while getting shelled by 4 Hill Giants! It certainly makes regions live up to their reputations. Encounters like this one really made us respect the wilds of locales like the North as truly dangerous places. |
| MarkusTay6312-31-07, 10:58 AM | Even had I heard that, I still see absolutely no reason to essentially pay for seeing what amounts to an advertisement... just can't bring myself to spend money, much less scarce shelf space for something I'm only going to read once or twice.My point exactly, but put much better. Markus, you're just digging a deeper hole. Anything short of, “Yeah...I prolly shouldn’t have said that.” is just excuses.I'm not a hipocrite - I stand by what I say, even when I know I'm sounding like an @ss for saying it. I won't back-peddle, even if I know it will spell my inevitable doom. I sound like a game designer, huh? :P and BTW, it truy was meant as a joke - that's why I was suprised they 'erased' my comment. Since you obviously read it, you must realize that it WAS supposed to be funny. I'll save what I REALLY think of some peoples 'talent' for other websites... |
| Lord Karsus12-31-07, 10:59 AM | -I dare say it, but you might need to be stopped... |
| 18DELTA12-31-07, 11:04 AM | MarkusTay63 must be stopped!!!;) :P :D |
| MarkusTay6312-31-07, 11:06 AM | I probably do... If I wasn't still interested in the 4e rules, I wouldn't even bother with WotC anymore. The Realms I knew and love appear to be gone now, so there really isn't a whole lot keeping me around anymore. I'm just tired of handing money to a company that doesn't seem to appreciate what it has. :( Sounds like my ex....... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-31-07, 11:22 AM | I'm also convinced that all the nifty artwork you guys are gushing over will also be IN the new core books. I plan to buy THOSE books, so why should I WASTE my money on a sneak-preview? I read that not all the art in the preview books will be in the regular books. I'm not saying that means you should buy these books, I'm just saying there is stuff you can get from them that you won't be able to get anywhere else. I'm glad Rinonalyrna (that name is a chore to type!) was satisfied with her purchase... Call me Rino, or RF.:D |
| GreenKnight12-31-07, 11:25 AM | Call me Rino, or RF.:D Sorry, but RF is out of the question. Those're my real world initials, and using those will just throw me off balance and confuse me. Besides, just do what I do. Highlight her name and copy and paste it. :D |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-31-07, 11:28 AM | Also I agree I think the art is leaps and bounds better then 3.x(well except the tiefling weapons...I mean seriously do they actualy think those are viable weapon designs?). Though I still liked 1st edition art the most of all the editions. Elves aren't fugly anymore.:) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin12-31-07, 11:30 AM | Sorry, but RF is out of the question. Those're my real world initials, and using those will just throw me off balance and confuse me. Besides, just do what I do. Highlight her name and copy and paste it. :D Oh geez. :rofl: |
| MarkusTay6312-31-07, 11:47 AM | Call me Rino, or RF.:DI would NEVER call the Princess of the WotC boards a Rino... it just doesn't sound very... flattering. ;) |
| Lord Karsus12-31-07, 11:49 AM | -When it's pronounced 'Reeno', it's not bad. |
| MarkusTay6312-31-07, 12:10 PM | Unless it makes you think of the Reno 911 TV series, which is gawd-awful. Except for the VERY funny D&D episode. (http://www.dailyhaha.com/_vids/Reno911_Dungeons_and_Dragons.htm) ;) |
| GreenKnight12-31-07, 12:15 PM | Pronouncing it like that actually makes me think of that horrendous tv series Renegade (http://crazyabouttv.com/renegade.html). So no. Rino, Reeno, no, no, no. |
| MarkusTay6312-31-07, 12:21 PM | How about Fath? :confused: It sounds a lot like 'Faith', which is nice... |
| Lord Karsus12-31-07, 12:28 PM | Unless it makes you think of the Reno 911 TV series, which is gawd-awful. Except for the VERY funny D&D episode. (http://www.dailyhaha.com/_vids/Reno911_Dungeons_and_Dragons.htm) ;) :rofl: -Nick the Grip. -Boots of Escaping. -Hey, was that anyone here? :shifty: |
| MerrikCale12-31-07, 12:31 PM | maybe we should just call her queen of the WoTC Boards or perhaps just Queen |
| MarkusTay6312-31-07, 12:36 PM | Queen makes her sound old (like that Lich in GB) - Princess makes her sound young and h... ummm... adventurous. Yeah... that's it... adventurous... :shifty: |
| Lord Karsus12-31-07, 12:39 PM | -How about the Konsort of Karsus! With a Kult of Karsus, Hands of Karsus, and a Konsort, I'll be unstoppable! Mwahahaha! :evillaugh |
| MerrikCale12-31-07, 12:39 PM | Queen makes her sound old (like that Lich in GB) - Princess makes her sound young and h... ummm... adventurous. Yeah... that's it... adventurous... :shifty: So she's the Princess of the WoTC Boards? |
| GreenKnight12-31-07, 12:50 PM | Highlight. Copy. Paste. Easy. |
| johnkretzer12-31-07, 01:15 PM | -How about the Konsort of Karsus! With a Kult of Karsus, Hands of Karsus, and a Konsort, I'll be unstoppable! Mwahahaha! :evillaugh That just makes me want to rescue her though...I mean gee isn't Karsus evil? Besides I'll stop you... |
| msatran12-31-07, 01:19 PM | I've been calling her Rhee for a while. And it sounds more fantasylike. |
| Lord Karsus12-31-07, 01:20 PM | I mean gee isn't Karsus evil? -No, I just have a bad rep, that's all. Besides I'll stop you... -Go ahead and try, puny mortal. :emp: |
| Stigger12-31-07, 01:44 PM | You people are all weirdos... in a good sort of way. Probably why I hang out here as much as I do. :D |
| MarkusTay6312-31-07, 02:13 PM | Thank You. :D Back on Topic: I went to Border's a little while ago, because I got another Gift Certificate for Christmas (isn't it wonderful that I trained everyone so well? :P ). I figure'd I'd pick up the Everis Cale trilogy, but they were out, and nothing else struck my fancy (although I did pick up the Archwizards trilogy - then shuddered and put it back down). Anyhow, I tried to find a copy of Races & Classes to peruse, but there were none on the shelf. I noticed a kid (16?) sitting in the aisle reading something, and I asked him if it was R&C, which he replied "Uh-huh". I then asked if he had noticed another one, and he replied "Nope!". I then asked him if I could look at that copy for a sec, because I was just wondering what it was all about. He ignored me. :bored: I then asked him when he thought he'd be done, and he just said "When I finish it" (he was on the page that said "Eladrin", and it didn't look like he had gotten very far). Although I commend him for not buying it, and reading it in the store (like I was planning), I was very upset about his attitude - not once did he look up at me while I was addressing him. My 6'3", 300 lb son just looked at (knowing my short fuse), but I just shrugged. I had considered a well-placed kick in the temple to liberate said tome from the kid's hands, but I was wearing steel-toed boots, and I didn't want his parents to have to pay for a funeral. I think I'll wait until I'm in a better mood before going back to Border's.... :rolleyes: |
| Mr_Miscellany12-31-07, 02:41 PM | Even had I heard that, I still see absolutely no reason to essentially pay for seeing what amounts to an advertisement... just can't bring myself to spend money, much less scarce shelf space for something I'm only going to read once or twice.Your call, like everyone else's. I mean, I like what I'm reading so far (when I have the time to read it)...it's a great preview book. It's probably not worth the $20.00 for a new gamer....save your money for the core books when they come out and go have a blast. But for more experienced gamers with an interest in understanding the reasoning going into the new setting, it's a great book. For Realms fans wanting to know the basis for the new Core, this is a good start too, because it gives us glimpses of what’s coming in the 4E Realms. For example, I'm still in the races section (reading about Dragonborn, their origins, racial characteristics, legends, culture), which has got me thinking about Vaasa and Damara and wondering how WotC will take the martial/honor culture of Core Dragonborn and adapt that to the Realms. I think some (if not all) of the Dragonborn will come from that region, owing their culture to (old) King Gareth's teachings combined with the resurgence of Bahamut’s followers. :::::::::::::: But to say the book has no point....? That's just leet speak from people that have an agenda against WotC or are more concerned with needing to appear smart than with anything Realms related. |
| MarkusTay6312-31-07, 03:02 PM | I have NOTHING against the company known as WotC, nothing at all actually. But if I plan on buying the rules in a couple of months, which I do, I don't see the point in reading the 'half' version for 2/3 the price of the tome I DO plan to buy. That would mean I would be spending well over fifty dollars for my new PHB, which is just ludicrous. Also, it doesn't appear to have ANY re-read value, and as Stigger points out, wastes shelf space. If you only plan to read it once, and are planning to buy the rules, doesn't it make MORE sense to gleen information HERE, or read it in the store (as others are obviously doing?) At least I'm not buying it and returning it, which is an option but one I consider rather rude (having worked retail). I'm just as interested in the changes as everyone else, but I'm just not willing to pay for a 'glimpse' of things to come. I even had the patience to refrain from murdering someone to look at it. That kinda makes me a Saint. :angel: |
| companion_cube12-31-07, 03:08 PM | I have NOTHING against the company known as WotC, nothing at all actually. But if I plan on buying the rules in a couple of months, which I do, I don't see the point in reading the 'half' version for 2/3 the price of the tome I DO plan to buy. That would mean I would be spending well over fifty dollars for my new PHB, which is just ludicrous. I have the same train of thought here. Some of the stuff in there might not even make it to June. Its basically a situation where they are just putting it out there to maximize their profits. Its what companies do. To some people it worth 50 bucks to have 1/4 the book now and 3/4 later. To others they'll just get the whole thing later for less. If they can sell at the price each individual is willing to pay they make more money. |
| GreenKnight12-31-07, 03:14 PM | Well, I'm ordering from Amazon, so both Races and Classes and the 4E PHB amounts to about $36 for me. To each their own, but personally, I'm interested in this book for the same reason I like watching extras on DVD's. Sometime's it's interesting to see the reasoning behind some decisions. Not to mention that I'm just flat-out impatient, and want some concrete info now. :D |
| Mr_Miscellany12-31-07, 03:47 PM | Markus…. You say the book isn’t useful or worthwhile. You say you don’t have anything against WotC. Then, you advocate people read it, without buying it. Do I really need to point out the contradiction here? |
| Dark Wizard12-31-07, 04:07 PM | If I do want it as a "DVD extra," I'll get it after the Core rules come out and these books drop in price, maybe even get it used for dirt cheap. That's about how much this is worth in my opinion, something like the $2-$5 'Players Guide' that Paizo put out for their Pathfinder line. I think that might have generated more widespread hype. |
| Lord Karsus12-31-07, 04:47 PM | But to say the book has no point....? That's just leet speak from people that have an agenda against WotC or are more concerned with needing to appear smart than with anything Realms related. -In gaming terms, no it doesn't. For personal enjoyment and whatever though, sure. -That next book, Worlds and Monsters, or whatever it is, will probably be more useful/interesting. I'm assuming that it'll be talking about lore changes to "Core"/Generic D&D, and the supported campaign settings (Forgotten Realms and Eberron)- though, in all likelihood, it'll probably be a single, compiled source of all of the different statements we've gotten through interviews, journals, questions, etc. |
| MarkusTay6312-31-07, 05:12 PM | To each their own, but personally, I'm interested in this book for the same reason I like watching extras on DVD's. Sometime's it's interesting to see the reasoning behind some decisions. Not to mention that I'm just flat-out impatient, and want some concrete info now. :DI LOVE extras on DVDs, and have a great time watching them. I suppose if I were truly interested in what the 4e designers were thinking, I would want to buy this book. But truth be told, I have absolutely NO interest in what goes on inside their heads. I don't want to get nasty or anything, so thats all I'm going to say about that subject. If you guys ARE interested, then by all means, BUY IT! For you, it is worth it then. As for me, I just want to get my hands on the 'real' rules so I can start digesting all the crunchy bits. As a side note, I purchased The Annotated Elminster about a week ago, and all the juicy little 'extras' Ed included make the book well worth while. You see, I DO want to know how ED thinks.... Then, you advocate people read it, without buying it.Of course - I NEVER buy ANYTHING now without looking it over first. I used to buy everything, and THEN read it, and I got stuck with quite a few books I had NO use for. Now I download any book I want, and if I like what I see, I go out and purchase it. If I'm going to use a book IG, then it is worth owning - I no longer just blindly purchase every D&D product made, like I used to. I don't have the income to waste any longer, and have become a bit more discerning. If a company puts out a good product, or even a useful product, then people SHOULD spend te money and purchase a hard copy. If they produce cr@p or useless books, then people shouldn't bother. Every other product comes with a least a 30-day money back gaurantee if you are disatisfied, so why shouldn't game books? Basically, I'm just saying everyone should 'sample' this tome first, and if they find anything - ANYTHING - they will be able to use later on, then they should spend the money on it. Since all I've heard is that it is one big advertisement, I don't see why I need to shell out $20 bucks for an "ad". However, if I start reading it at Border's, which I plan to do (after that little jerk leaves), and I LOVE it and find it USEFUL, then of course I'll buy it, and consider it money well worth spent. But I'm going to take it for a "test-drive" first... :cool: |
| Shemeska the Marauder12-31-07, 05:24 PM | But to say the book has no point....? That's just leet speak from people that have an agenda against WotC or are more concerned with needing to appear smart than with anything Realms related. I'd rather they spend their time putting all they can into 4e rather than producing preview books that are little more than advertisements. When the amount of material going into the digital Dragon and Dungeon -outside of 4e sales pitches- has decreased, and the editors seem torn between working and testing 4e, and producing the magazines as almost a side project, I'd rather the time not be spent producing advertisement books that are more liable in my opinion to only increase the ill will felt by the community, especially among people already sitting on the fence that WotC stands to gain or lose based on their ability to handle PR well, and ultimately to make a good product in 2008. I've got reasons for feeling jaded and unimpressed about the preview books that have nothing to do with an agenda against WotC. They have finite resources, and when they're already getting hammered daily on various fronts, I'd like to see them focus on what's important, rather than making a preview book that a slim minority will actually buy, doing little but padding year-end results. |
| Mr_Miscellany12-31-07, 06:19 PM | Little front end edit: I can see your PoV in wanting WotC to focus exclusively on 4E. I really, truly can. That said.... I'd rather they spend their time putting all they can into 4e rather than producing preview books that are little more than advertisements. "...little more than advertisements." That's a good example of a dysphemism. (A word or phrase that makes something sound worse than a neutral description.) I'm (slowly) learning what's going to change in 4E, thanks in part to this book. I'm that much more prepared. I can talk to my players next Monday and answer their questions. That’s a good thing. I'd rather WotC try and tell me (us) what they're doing, then get hit with all of it at once when I crack open a 4E core rulebook for the first time. You'd think people that are obsessively concerned with how WotC 'treats' them would be appreciative of the inside info. But, there's just no pleasing some people, no matter what. Anyway, is it worth $20.00? That’s up to each person to judge. But I’m interested, and I don’t mind throwing the money WotC’s way. When the amount of material going into the digital Dragon and Dungeon -outside of 4e sales pitches- has decreased, and the editors seem torn between .... This begs lots of questions. First and foremost: How do you know what is going on inside WotC’s walls? How do you know the editors even ‘seem’ torn between anything? Do you have first-hand knowledge of WotC’s resources and how they are being allocated? I doubt you do. But if I’m wrong: Please, fill us in. I dunno, it just really looks more to me like you’re trying to manufacture a set of problems that you can’t actually prove exist, all in order to form the basis for criticism that looks to downplay the wisdom in publishing the Races and Classes book. ....are more liable in my opinion to only increase the ill will felt by the community, especially among people already sitting on the fence that WotC stands to gain or lose based on their ability to handle PR well, and ultimately to make a good product in 2008. Telling people what’s coming is going to make the fence-sitters more upset? What? As for the “ill will”...you’ve played that card before and presumed to know the mindset of the audience in the past. You were dead wrong then and I don’t think you’re much closer to the mark now. But who knows ... you could just possibly be right. We’ll see. I've got reasons for feeling jaded and unimpressed about the preview books that have nothing to do with an agenda against WotC. They have finite resources, and when they're already getting hammered daily on various fronts, I'd like to see them focus on what's important, rather than making a preview book that a slim minority will actually buy, doing little but padding year-end results. Lots and lots of assumptions here. Getting hammered? By who? Over what? And how is not keeping the fan base informed not important? And how do you know how many people will buy this book? Have you considered WotC might be watching sales in part to gauge interest level? Have you considered there’s exactly zero wrong with taking the two-years long effort put into 4E thus far and trying to turn a profit on it? What’s wrong with compiling and publishing design work information and subject matter related to the game (the later already produced for the Core Rulebooks) and giving the gaming public a glimpse of what’s coming? I just don’t get how anyone who’s truly interested in playing D&D could have a problem with this. :confused: |
| johnkretzer12-31-07, 06:22 PM | -No, I just have a bad rep, that's all. I don't know Karsus...you sorta remind me of Cyric...I mean you both killed the goddess of magic for petty obessive reasons and caused alot of upheaval...:P -Go ahead and try, puny mortal. :emp: Sigh and why do you think I am but a puny mortal? |
| Storm_Silverhand12-31-07, 08:06 PM | Heya, My games are also not combat heavy, but I think if every Tom, Dick, and Harry could get to level 25 in under five years, then there would be a helluva lot MORE high-level NPCs in FR then are complained about. In fact, if it were that easy, then Elminster should be somewhere around level 500! PCs are supposed to be the exception, not the rule. However, having said that - Role Playing is really about whatever floats your boat. :) If you like slow play, more power to you. I, on the other hand, would quickly get bored with that kind of progression... Because it would be too much like treading water, you spend all your energy staying afloat and getting no where... Which is why my players get almost as much XP from Role Playing as they do from Combats in games I run. I have actually played in games where I thought the progression was too quick - but that was just the DMs style, and I did enjoy some aspects of the game. I also use the 'law of diminishing returns', which I believe was actually covered in one of the options books. The first time they do something, or encounter a monster, they get DOUBLE EP for it. The second time, normal EP. The third time - 1/2, the fourth 1/4... You don't get the same EP for the 1000th Orc you kill, as you do for your very first. I don't do a lot of bookeeping, but I do have an excellent memory. :D This means it becomes harder to gain experience unless you are actually experiencing NEW things. That's an interesting rule, and would significantly slow progression... Unless you then went out and killed one of everything. ;) WoW Anyhow, you can't run instances without a group in WoW, and thats a major part of the game. I know... I played an entire year without a guild and only did Instance 15-20 levels under mine, which doesn't net very good items. You want the "Phat Lootz", then you gotta party up. ;) You can level up fine without instancing... When you think about it, going for the phat lootz from instances when you're still low level is pointless, as you will always be replacing the gear as you advance. It's the high levels when you need to start thinking about instancing for gear - and by high level, I mean level 70. Before that it is quite possible to get great gear without ever setting foot in an instance, for one thing the quest rewards you get for quests in the Outlands outshine anything from any instance level 60 and below, and for another if you have some gold behind you you can buy some great gear from the AH (which isn't hard, especially if you take up say... mining and skinning... metal and leather have always been excellent sellers, metal in particular. Last time I checked, on my server a stack of copper bars was worth something on the order of 1g a piece, and only improves from there, while light leather was also selling for 1g a stack (used to sell for 25s a stack about a year ago, just to put that in perspective)). And even once you get to level 70, you can still get great gear without ever setting foot inside an instance - they've set up PvP rewards to just about rival some of the gear a non-hardcore raider can get out of instances. Oh, and one other thing about instances. Find a level 70 friend and have them run you through the lower level instances - voila, no need for a full group. Not that thats a bad thing... I like WoW... but I don't want to have to get my Fishing up to 300! Cooking, on the other hand, I liked a LOT... :P Ugh, Fishing is the worst profession in WoW. They did improve it somewhat, by making it take less time to get a bite, but ugh. :raincloud Maybe that's lately, but at the time, it was nearly impossible to complete any of the open quests I had. I've have about 20 in my quest book, and at most, I could complete 4-5 solo. The rest I either had to get a group to help me complete them, or I had to go grind so I could level once or twice and then do them solo. But by that point, I was higher level then the quest was intended to be played at, and so I got a mediocre amount of XP from it. It was ridiculous, the number of quests I got which were simply out of reach. And that's discounting the Zul'Farrak and the like which can't be done solo no matter what. It's changed a lot. They've recently changed the XP progression from 20 to 60, it is now a lot faster. You'll out level gear faster because of it. So I feel there isn't much point to instances, unless you're after a specific reward - like the Carrot on a Stick from afore mentioned Zul'Farrak. Also, as I mentioned above, many Azerothian instances are soloable for a level 70 (excluding the new one that was released recently in the Ghostlands, but that's really a TBC instance) - if you really need something from an instance, find a level 70 to help you. My Warlock wanted the Carrot on a Stick, so I had her look for a PUG. I think we ended up with a level 70 with us, made the run so much easier. But anyway, this is way off topic... :incog: If you want to respond, prolly best to take it to PMs... :) ObOT: I plan on getting the Races and Classes book, next time I'm at my FLGS. Yes. *nods* |
| Eli_the_Tanner12-31-07, 08:18 PM | Previews are good things, as are glimses into the minds of the creators of the new edition. Clearly we are all interesed in what is going to happen, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing this. However paying for these bits of information, or more accurately, paying to be observes of an ongoing process seems silly. What we all want is to know what the new rules are going to be and many would gladly pay for just a part of the new rulebooks(as this appears to be). But this is not a preview in the true sense of the word, as we are paying for what they are thinking of doing... so far! We have been repeatedly told that 4ed is by no means a finished product and any info they give out is not neccasarily going to be around next year. If anything these seem less like advertisements and more like market research betas! Sigh and why do you think I am but a puny mortal? Compared to our great lord Karsus we are all nothing more than specks of dust - we should count ourselves lucky he even deigns to acknowledge us. |
| MarkusTay6312-31-07, 08:46 PM | First, I'd like to start out by saying I am NOT trying to pick a fight here - I really don't understand the appeal of this tome (hence, my wanting to look at the one at Border's today). I'm (slowly) learning what's going to change in 4E, thanks in part to this book. I'm that much more prepared. I can talk to my players next Monday and answer their questions. That’s a good thing.Good Point, but in my case, I've got a nice guy like you (;) ) to read it and start a thread to tell the rest of us whats going on, saving us the trouble of having to pick it up. Now that this out, and folks are discussing it, I'll know everything the book-buyers do inside of a week. You'd think people that are obsessively concerned with how WotC 'treats' them would be appreciative of the inside info. But, there's just no pleasing some people, no matter what.Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is a huge difference in giving away helpful information about changes a company is planning, and selling it to them. :bored: Especially when said company first creates a demand (lack of concrete knowledge), and then charges us for the information when we are 'scared' and worried. Did you know such selling tactics are actually ILLEGAL when dealing with such things as insurance? To bad game products don't fall under THAT umbrella... Anyway, is it worth $20.00? That’s up to each person to judge. But I’m interested, and I don’t mind throwing the money WotC’s way.Couldn't agree more - if you are happpy with it then more power to you. Personally, I think the more we 'except' what they feed us (paid previews, lower page counts, no indexes, larger fonts, re-used art, etc, etc...), the more they will continue down this "more for less" path, and the lower the quality of our products become. At some point, we need to make a stand, and let them know that they can't just keep bleeding us dry with 'pretend' products. Telling people what’s coming is going to make the fence-sitters more upset?When they charge us for info about a new edition a lot of us are still unsure about? You Betcha!!! As for the “ill will”...you’ve played that card before and presumed to know the mindset of the audience in the past. You were dead wrong then and I don’t think you’re much closer to the mark now.Good Will goes a long way in keeping a company afloat, especially in something as tenuous as a niche hobby. Look at Games Workshop - They got tired of their fan base complaining about their products and shut down their forums. They kept right on producing the products they wanted, while providing less for more money. Most of the people that had been huge fans of their warhammer games left for greener pastures (Privateer Press, Rackham) over the last four years, and their sales figures every quarter have been tanking. Loyal customers will not follow blindly forever... Getting hammered? By who? Over what? And how is not keeping the fan base informed not important?This was about the poor quality of what was supposed to be the "New and Improved" Dungeon & Dragon. So far, they have only showed us that they CANNOT produce the kind of quality product that Paizo did for so many years. The cannot keep deadlines (obviously - we were promised something in December), and what I have seen so far (disguised 4e ads) can't even lay a finger on the wonderful articles we saw in Paizo's Dragon. The level of arrogance... NAY... incompetence... on THAT front is overwhelming. Can you, with all honestly Miscelleny, say you enjoy the new DI content as much as you enjoyed the paper copy of Dragon Magazine? And in light of that dismal failure, what can most of expect from 4e FR? We hear a lot of promises about how great it's gonna be, but we heard those about the DI as well. All I've seen so far is are lagging and crashing servers - and the real content hasn't even been put up yet (and probably never will). Are you familiar with the saying "Smoke and Mirrors"? How about "Bread and Circuses"? Cause thats what they're feeding us.... What’s wrong with compiling and publishing design work information and subject matter related to the game (the later already produced for the Core Rulebooks) and giving the gaming public a glimpse of what’s coming?There is nothing wrong with it, but charging people to tell them how brilliant you are is in poor taste, IMNSHO. I just don’t get how anyone who’s truly interested in playing D&D could have a problem with this. :confused:And at the exact same time, I don't know how they can't. Different strokes for different folks - thats what makes the world go round and all of that. I don't begrudge you for liking the book; I'm sure lots of people will. I just don't believe in paying for an unfinished product. Maybe if the book came with a coupon, and we got $10 off the PHB..... |
| Mr_Miscellany12-31-07, 09:32 PM | ObOT: I plan on getting the Races and Classes book, next time I'm at my FLGS. Yes. *nods* Right on. |
| 18DELTA01-01-08, 01:54 AM | I got the book the day it came out. I never regret a D&D purchase. Heck if WotC put out a book called "Complete Cr@p" I would probably buy it.:P I plan on subscribing to "Kobold Quarterly" in the near future. Paizo is calling it the "the spiritual successor to Dragon Magazine" . www.koboldquarterly.com :cool: |
| Rauric01-01-08, 08:51 AM | I got the book the day it came out. I never regret a D&D purchase. Heck if WotC put out a book called "Complete Cr@p" I would probably buy it.:P I plan on subscribing to "Kobold Quarterly" in the near future. Paizo is calling it the "the spiritual successor to Dragon Magazine" . www.koboldquarterly.com :cool: That's awesome. Thx for the link. |
| MarkusTay6301-01-08, 12:13 PM | Heck if WotC put out a book called "Complete Cr@p" I would probably buy it.WOW... just... wow :rolleyes: You really shouldn't let them know that, because that's pretty much what they're shooting for. I used to have your attitude - I even still have MANY unread TSR products, and boxes/supplements with the shrink-wrap still on them! Then I saw how the quality of their products was taking a nose-dive by the end of 2e, and now I only buy what I think I can use, and only if it's GOOD. You should NEVER let a company know that you are willing to except cr@p... because then thats what you'll get. :( I plan on subscribing to "Kobold Quarterly" in the near future. Paizo is calling it the "the spiritual successor to Dragon Magazine" . www.koboldquarterly.comThanks for the link. I hope my LGS will carry this - I don't want to commit to a subscription until I see one personally. Not thrilled with the cover (An angel in an evening gown?!), but I like the look of the article's titles. :D This whole thing with the preview reminds me of when Privateer Press released their full-color catalogue. I bought it, hoping to catch a glimpse of some of the future stuff coming down the pipe, but there was absolutely nothing new in it, and all the model pics were already available online. The book had nice pictures, but was near-useless to me. Up until that time I was spending over a hundred dollars a month on PP products, but that catalogue was the last PP purchase I ever made. I guess maybe I'm not a true fan of a setting, since I can't bring myself to buy something that seems (to me, anyway) pointless. And besides, there wasn't anything about FR in Races & Classes, right? That means it had even less value to me then I even thought. The rules I already know I'm going to buy, so I don't need to 'read the ads', but I do want to know about the future of the Realms. Either way, I'm glad some folks are finding the preview helpful. |
| Lord Karsus01-01-08, 12:29 PM | I don't know Karsus...you sorta remind me of Cyric...I mean you both killed the goddess of magic for petty obessive reasons and caused alot of upheaval...:P -The difference is that Cyric is a dork, whereas I'm not. I'm well liked and recieved. Sigh and why do you think I am but a puny mortal? -I have an...inside source. :incog: However paying for these bits of information, or more accurately, paying to be observes of an ongoing process seems silly. -Agreed. That's why I didn't buy it. Now, if it came attached to the last issue of DUNGEON or DRAGON, or something like that, I'd have no problem. Compared to our great lord Karsus we are all nothing more than specks of dust - we should count ourselves lucky he even deigns to acknowledge us. -I am a benevolent power, as you know Eli. I plan on subscribing to "Kobold Quarterly" in the near future. Paizo is calling it the "the spiritual successor to Dragon Magazine" . www.koboldquarterly.com -So, basically, that's Paizo's version of DRAGON, only without the official name and license. Man, I wish I knew that existed beforehand! |
| MarkusTay6301-01-08, 12:39 PM | -So, basically, that's Paizo's version of DRAGON, only without the official name and license. Man, I wish I knew that existed beforehand!Is it published by Paizo? :confused: I don't see anything to that effect... And what happened to the other magazine they started that was supposed to take Dungeon and Dragon's place? |
| 18DELTA01-01-08, 12:44 PM | Is it published by Paizo? :confused: I don't see anything to that effect... And what happened to the other magazine they started that was supposed to take Dungeon and Dragon's place? Sorry my bad, it's published by these guy's: The Q-Workshop. I saw Eric Mona's name and jumped to a conclusion.:D |
| Lord Karsus01-01-08, 12:44 PM | Is it published by Paizo? :confused: I don't see anything to that effect... -No, it's not. I saw the button that said 'Paypall' as 'Paizo', when I first looked. And what happened to the other magazine they started that was supposed to take Dungeon and Dragon's place? -That's what I thought this was. |
| 18DELTA01-01-08, 01:00 PM | Yet the PDF's you can buy from Paizo. Could it be another division of www.paizo.com ? :D |
| MarkusTay6301-01-08, 02:49 PM | You can also still buy many of WotC's products from Paizo, even though Wizard's brutally stripped the rights to publish their magazines away from the only company that ever did it right. (sorry, couldn't help myself there... waxing nostalgic for Dragon mag right now...) Anyhow, Paizo carries lots of people's stuff, but that doesn't mean they are affiliated in any way. |
| Lord Karsus01-01-08, 02:55 PM | Anyhow, Paizo carries lots of people's stuff, but that doesn't mean they are affiliated in any way. -Of course not. You think most newstands have any relation with Marvel, even though they sell comics? They buy 'em, and then resell them. That's how it works. Paizo has/had 'em, and they resell them. |
| Eli_the_Tanner01-01-08, 06:45 PM | I plan on subscribing to "Kobold Quarterly" in the near future. Paizo is calling it the "the spiritual successor to Dragon Magazine" . www.koboldquarterly.com :cool: Seeing stuff like "Ecology of the Lich" makes me reach for my wallet.:drool: -I am a benevolent power, as you know Eli. One of the many reasons I became a Hand of Karsus - that and the complementary dark robe and badges! |
| Dark Wizard01-01-08, 07:01 PM | I've been a subscriber to Kobold Quarterly since Issue #1. It's not the most polished of magazines, a far cry from Dragon/Dungeon, but it has that underground 'zine' vibe to it that's fun. It's good to see the KQ growing with each issue. Ed Greenwood had an article in issue #2 and many contributors are names one will recognize from WotC's (and other companies) roster. |
| Lord Karsus01-01-08, 08:14 PM | Seeing stuff like "Ecology of the Lich" makes me reach for my wallet.:drool: -If you didn't know, Paizo published an entire book based on the 'Ecology of the ...X' articles. |
| MarkusTay6301-01-08, 08:16 PM | The ecology of the 'X'? Is that thing even in the Monster Manual? :confused: |
| Eli_the_Tanner01-01-08, 08:22 PM | -If you didn't know, Paizo published an entire book based on the 'Ecology of the ...X' articles. Ooh, I might have to check that out. I'm a big fan of those articles - along wth Demonicon of Iggwilv and Core Beliefs. The ecology of the 'X'? Is that thing even in the Monster Manual? :confused: Hehe. |
| MerrikCale01-01-08, 08:55 PM | The ecology of the 'X'? Is that thing even in the Monster Manual? :confused: sure. he's the bald guy in the wheelchair |
| Lord Karsus01-01-08, 09:04 PM | Ooh, I might have to check that out. I'm a big fan of those articles - along wth Demonicon of Iggwilv and Core Beliefs. -Yeah, the Demonimicon articles are nice. |
| 18DELTA01-01-08, 10:21 PM | I've been a subscriber to Kobold Quarterly since Issue #1. It's not the most polished of magazines, a far cry from Dragon/Dungeon, but it has that underground 'zine' vibe to it that's fun. It's good to see the KQ growing with each issue. Ed Greenwood had an article in issue #2 and many contributors are names one will recognize from WotC's (and other companies) roster. Is it worth a subscription? I know you got a subscription, if you had to do it all over again would you subscribe. Seriously thinking about subscribing. Thanks :) |
| Dark Wizard01-02-08, 12:45 AM | Is it worth a subscription? I know you got a subscription, if you had to do it all over again would you subscribe. Seriously thinking about subscribing. Thanks :) Hard to say. The utility of KQ is different for each person. Truthfully I barely used Dragon or Dungeon (but I still subscribed, never know when something might bring inspiration and all) and I probably use KQ about the same. I find it a bit overpriced for the print or .pdf version, but such is the cost of small press (overhead shared with each limited print run). It's relatively short, but the new one has more pages than the previous issues, so that's improving. KQ feels like those old Dragon magazines I got off ebay. So those used to browsing through old Dragon issues (when they were still staple bound) should feel right at home. I will put in a word of warning, if you're expecting the sleek, professional, modern, perfect-bound magazine feel of Dragon, this is not it. The physical copy is little better than a well done 'zine, ('zines are essentially low-to-zero budget fan productions). This is more professional than that and it will probably improve over time as subscriptions and sponsorships increase. So, the magazine looks plainer. I feel there is less crunch. So those looking for mechanics might not get their fill. Probably all for the best since 4E is on the horizon. This might change when 4E comes and people are looking to fill the mechanics vacuum a bit. At the same time I feel some of the articles a bit bland, but that's all magazines. I feel the mentions of the editor's own setting (mostly just name dropping) are a bit out of place since I don't have the articles and books he puts out (Wolfgang Baur runs that write-for-hire Open Design thing). Some might know his adventure design work, his Al-Qadim stuff, or his involvement in the RPG Supterstar contest over at Paizo (so he knows games and has plenty of design credits to back up why he can make a good editor). It's interesting but without more context I'm not sure where he's coming from with his ideas. The other contributors are about what you would expect, a bit more rambling than Dragon, which I guess is a sign of more freedom in what type of articles the KQ can put out. The KQ is quarterly of course, so only 4 issues a year. I find myself pleasantly surprised when it appears in my mailbox every few months. It's definitely worth a good look through. The website looks more put-together than when I visited it to subscribe. I really feel things are only going to pick up. The .pdfs for the first issues (which look sharper than the magazine, btw) are available but you'll probably want to check out the latest to see if the older issues are worth it for you. I think the kobold analogy is very fitting, KQ is a bit rough around the edges and certainly an underdog of a publication, but it scruffy and has potential. I like seeing it grow up, settle into it's proper, rightful place. I like that it's trying it's hardest to fill a very obvious hole in RPG publications (D&DI is just not the same as a printed magazine). |
| Eli_the_Tanner01-02-08, 10:50 AM | Thanks for the comprehensive review of the magazine Dark Wizard, I'm definately thinking about subscribing (or at least getting hold of a copy or two) now. Cheers! |
| 18DELTA01-02-08, 11:05 AM | Thanks DW. :tiphat: |
| MarkusTay6301-02-08, 12:28 PM | sure. he's the bald guy in the wheelchairMy gawd! You're right. He appears to be some sort of half-golem... http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Realm/6198/X-Men/Xavier4.jpg Perhaps he's really one of them thar Warforged folk I've been hearin' about... |
| MerrikCale01-02-08, 03:49 PM | Perhaps he's really one of them thar Warforged folk I've been hearin' about... yuck |
| Eli_the_Tanner01-02-08, 05:40 PM | A Warforged Psion! I might have to try that out. |
| Stigger01-02-08, 06:38 PM | Wasn't that in Magic of Eberron? |
| MarkusTay6301-02-08, 06:41 PM | I thought he was in X-Men? :confused: Or was that the Brotherhood of Evil Mucus... I think Magneto and Manshoon share the same fashion sense. :P |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-02-08, 08:33 PM | I've been calling her Rhee for a while. And it sounds more fantasylike. It's cute! Wouldn't mind "Queen" or "Princess" though.:D |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-02-08, 08:34 PM | -How about the Konsort of Karsus! With a Kult of Karsus, Hands of Karsus, and a Konsort, I'll be unstoppable! Mwahahaha! :evillaugh I could go for that. Oh yes, I could. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-02-08, 08:38 PM | Thank You. :D Back on Topic: I went to Border's a little while ago, because I got another Gift Certificate for Christmas (isn't it wonderful that I trained everyone so well? :P ). I figure'd I'd pick up the Everis Cale trilogy, but they were out, and nothing else struck my fancy (although I did pick up the Archwizards trilogy - then shuddered and put it back down). Anyhow, I tried to find a copy of Races & Classes to peruse, but there were none on the shelf. I noticed a kid (16?) sitting in the aisle reading something, and I asked him if it was R&C, which he replied "Uh-huh". I then asked if he had noticed another one, and he replied "Nope!". I then asked him if I could look at that copy for a sec, because I was just wondering what it was all about. He ignored me. :bored: I then asked him when he thought he'd be done, and he just said "When I finish it" (he was on the page that said "Eladrin", and it didn't look like he had gotten very far). Although I commend him for not buying it, and reading it in the store (like I was planning), I was very upset about his attitude - not once did he look up at me while I was addressing him. Next time say, "Well, you'll have to give it to me anyway, because I plan on buying it." ;) I wouldn't read the book in the store though. Flip through it, yes, read it, no. Still, you could follow my advice out of spite.:devil: |
| GreenKnight01-02-08, 08:52 PM | Well, that's ONE way of handling the situation. :P Personally I would've yanked the book right out of the little punks hands. Prick. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-02-08, 08:52 PM | Well, that's ONE way of handling the situation. :P Personally I would've yanked the book right out of the little punks hands. Prick. Heehee, that's a good solution too! :rofl: |
| MerrikCale01-02-08, 08:55 PM | I could go for that. Oh yes, I could. I was wonderin' when you were gonna respond to our silliness |
| Kenzuki01-02-08, 08:57 PM | That or tell him chicks won't go out with him if they see him reading that. |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-02-08, 09:01 PM | Or tha he lives in a cave... :P |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-02-08, 09:14 PM | I was wonderin' when you were gonna respond to our silliness I enjoy it!:D |
| Dark Wizard01-02-08, 10:38 PM | Thanks for the comprehensive review of the magazine Dark Wizard, I'm definately thinking about subscribing (or at least getting hold of a copy or two) now. Cheers! Thanks DW. :tiphat: Welcome. The best thing to do is probably just get one of the issues and look over it. I'm actually eagerly waiting the next issue to see what formating has changed and what content is available. |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 12:01 AM | I could go for that. Oh yes, I could. -Woo hoo! :w00t: :dancin: |
| MarkusTay6301-03-08, 01:27 AM | Well, that's ONE way of handling the situation. :P Personally I would've yanked the book right out of the little punks hands. Prick.I don't know... I think I pitied him toward the end. Like I said, not once did he look up to notice the two VERY large men hulking over him. His self-preservation instinct was obviously NOT functional. :uh-huh: Not that I would have REALLY done anything (but OH, I thought about it), but still, when two complete strangers are hovering over you asking about something in your hands, you should at least look at them to guage the situation. That kid wouldn't last two minutes in any city - he should thank god that he lives in the 'burbs. Anyhow, I think I'll try again tomorrow - hopefully they'll have some new copies in - the one they have is probably getting a little dog-eared by now. ;) |
| Mr_Miscellany01-03-08, 03:21 AM | (I laughed hard at the coment about "....creating an artifical demand." Sorry, couldn't help it.) There is nothing wrong with it, but charging people to tell them how brilliant you are is in poor taste, IMNSHO. It's a good thing that's exactly not what WotC did, or is doing. There's really no substance to the remainder or your complaints or criticisms, beyond dissapointment at the state of the DI (yet even then you went too far: "Incompetence"? Are you serious?) The remainder of your criticisms are genuinely overblown and trully, awesomely out of proportion to what you're talking about (it's just a hobby, dude). You start good, but then crash. It's. Just. A. Game. You are too small for WotC to focus on. They are not out to get you. And you don't have to worry about the rest of us. We are not lemmings. You don't need to save us. And it's OK to wait for the DI to catch up. A first failure does not mean the end of the world. Really man, take a break. Things will get better. I promise. |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-03-08, 03:32 AM | ... I don't know Mr. Mis, sir. I rather enjoy his complains And your reactions... |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 03:36 AM | It's. Just. A. Game. -Those who fight not for which they love deserve not which they have. Something like that. I don't remember the exact quotation. |
| Mr_Miscellany01-03-08, 03:38 AM | We're here to keep the show going, it seems. (Nearly) unchecked emotion crashes like ocean waves against the rock of reason, with both sides all but convinced they stand on the cliff-face and are not in fact part of the water. Err..something like that. :sigh: |
| Mr_Miscellany01-03-08, 03:46 AM | -Those who fight not for which they love deserve not which they have. Something like that. I don't remember the exact quotation. Those who are willing to take fun to the level of stupid ruin that fun for all the other sane people. That's a new take on an old truth. 100% I don't want to read unimaginably ludicrous rants about corporate schemes or see that some people actually freak out when a company tries to make a buck. I don't want to read another fit by people hot about imagined slights and trumped up complaints. If it's all ranting, or repetitive complaints, with a loss of focus on the fun factor then yeah, folks are taking it too far. Instead, I want to read about people's imaginative ideas on how WotC will handle inserting Dragonborn into the Realms. I want to know what people think of the idea that elves will live only 300 years. Will that be because of the loss of the Weave, or will Elves seemingly age more in the Fey Wild? I want to read people's thoughts on how the Realms will have to change to incorporate above-ground dwarven cities. Or about how dwarves will no longer have darkvision. Like it or not, our perception of the Realms will experience even more drastic changes before this is all over. Let’s focus on the Realms and how best to do our (small) part as an online community to shepherd it along. This thread is about the material contained within the Races and Classes book, and how that material relates to the Realms. Rants about WotC's strategy on selling update information belong on the 4E Concerns and Criticisms board. |
| msatran01-03-08, 04:45 AM | And how is it fair, Mr. Miscellany, to tell your players that their 19th and 20th level characters just explode in a puff of logic? Here's a hint. It isn't. They'd get up and walk away from the table, and they'd be RIGHT to. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-03-08, 09:52 AM | I want to read people's thoughts on how the Realms will have to change to incorporate above-ground dwarven cities. Or about how dwarves will no longer have darkvision. Like it or not, our perception of the Realms will experience even more drastic changes before this is all over. Let’s focus on the Realms and how best to do our (small) part as an online community to shepherd it along. This thread is about the material contained within the Races and Classes book, and how that material relates to the Realms. To be honest I'm interested in how 4E ideas in these books can be used in other settings, because I don't plan on changing my Realms to accomodate all the new concepts. And I'm fine with that. I love the Realms with all my heart, but it's not the only setting I've ever journeyed to. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-03-08, 09:54 AM | And how is it fair, Mr. Miscellany, to tell your players that their 19th and 20th level characters just explode in a puff of logic? Here's a hint. It isn't. They'd get up and walk away from the table, and they'd be RIGHT to. But I agree with those who've been saying all along that you don't have to change your setting.:) |
| msatran01-03-08, 10:38 AM | The problem is that Wizards is deliberately creating a situation where if you don't change the setting, acquiring new players is going to be like pulling teeth with a hammer and tongs. 20 year campaigns don't survive without new blood, Rhee. |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 11:23 AM | Those who are willing to take fun to the level of stupid ruin that fun for all the other sane people. That's a new take on an old truth. 100% I don't want to read unimaginably ludicrous rants about corporate schemes or see that some people actually freak out when a company tries to make a buck. I don't want to read another fit by people hot about imagined slights and trumped up complaints. If it's all ranting, or repetitive complaints, with a loss of focus on the fun factor then yeah, folks are taking it too far. Instead, I want to read about people's imaginative ideas on how WotC will handle inserting Dragonborn into the Realms. I want to know what people think of the idea that elves will live only 300 years. Will that be because of the loss of the Weave, or will Elves seemingly age more in the Fey Wild? I want to read people's thoughts on how the Realms will have to change to incorporate above-ground dwarven cities. Or about how dwarves will no longer have darkvision. Like it or not, our perception of the Realms will experience even more drastic changes before this is all over. Let’s focus on the Realms and how best to do our (small) part as an online community to shepherd it along. This thread is about the material contained within the Races and Classes book, and how that material relates to the Realms. -Then don't listen to those in question, it's as simple as that. They have as much of a right to yell about 4e Forgotten Realms as you do defending 4e Forgotten Realms. Rants about WotC's strategy on selling update information belong on the 4E Concerns and Criticisms board. -This entire thread belongs in the 4e area. |
| johnkretzer01-03-08, 03:35 PM | Those who are willing to take fun to the level of stupid ruin that fun for all the other sane people. How? Also why is it people who don't like the changes taking their fun to a stupid level...and the people who have been begging for the reduction of the pantheons, less powerful good NPCs, etc. not ruining peoples fun by taking their fun to a stupid level? I don't want to read unimaginably ludicrous rants about corporate schemes or see that some people actually freak out when a company tries to make a buck. Yesh but some of them a funny. But you don't have to read them. I don't want to read another fit by people hot about imagined slights and trumped up complaints. Are you so egostical that other people's thoughts are unimportant. If it's all ranting, or repetitive complaints, with a loss of focus on the fun factor then yeah, folks are taking it too far. Gee here I am thinking WotC is taking things way too far... Instead, I want to read about people's imaginative ideas on how WotC will handle inserting Dragonborn into the Realms. Simple they are not going to be in my Realms atleast. Or any D&D game I run. I find the race cheapens dragons for me. So they will be left out. I still will allow half-dragons but on a limited basis. Hopefuly 4th edition will still have rules for them. I want to know what people think of the idea that elves will live only 300 years. Will that be because of the loss of the Weave, or will Elves seemingly age more in the Fey Wild? Simple elven life-span will remain the same...as will elves for the most part. I want to read people's thoughts on how the Realms will have to change to incorporate above-ground dwarven cities. Or about how dwarves will no longer have darkvision. Again really simple dwarves will retain darkvision and their cities will be still underground for the most part. Like it or not, our perception of the Realms will experience even more drastic changes before this is all over. Let’s focus on the Realms and how best to do our (small) part as an online community to shepherd it along. Not my Realms... This thread is about the material contained within the Races and Classes book, and how that material relates to the Realms. So far it won't...as most of the new flavor on the races. I mean the 'NEW' halfling is stolen directly from the Midnight setting(except they did it w/ gnomes). And making them swamp dwellers is just really dumb...a short race that would move slower then about all the creatures in the swamp...the only way that would work is if the lizard men raised them as cattle...and it is suppose to be of great defenisive terrain...:rolleyes: Rants about WotC's strategy on selling update information belong on the 4E Concerns and Criticisms board. I can agree with that. |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 03:45 PM | I mean the 'NEW' halfling is stolen directly from the Midnight setting(except they did it w/ gnomes). And making them swamp dwellers is just really dumb...a short race that would move slower then about all the creatures in the swamp...the only way that would work is if the lizard men raised them as cattle...and it is suppose to be of great defenisive terrain...:rolleyes: -Having Halflings in a swamp is a terrible idea, actually. They are short- the odds of them drowning in a small body of water are terribly high. |
| MerrikCale01-03-08, 04:06 PM | -Having Halflings in a swamp is a terrible idea, actually. They are short- the odds of them drowning in a small body of water are terribly high. but the odds of them being able to hide in the reeds is much higher |
| GreenKnight01-03-08, 04:09 PM | Halflings are tied to rivers, not swamps. |
| MerrikCale01-03-08, 04:14 PM | Halflings are tied to rivers, not swamps. i think you're wrong |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 04:15 PM | but the odds of them being able to hide in the reeds is much higher -Well, when the reeds are green, and you are pasty white... Halflings are tied to rivers, not swamps. -That's even worse! Being short, their chances of drowning increase in a river, which are sometimes deep- especially if you need a river to cross it- are quite high. |
| GreenKnight01-03-08, 04:15 PM | Hmm. I'm half wrong. What I get for skimming. From Wizards Presents: Races & Classes: Each race seems to have a clear “homeland”. Dwarves live in mountains, elves in forests. Now they come up with something for all major races. Humans are tied to plains, Halfling to rivers (swamps and marshes), Dragonborn to deserts (at least their great empire was in desert). -That's even worse! Being short, their chances of drowning increase in a river, which are sometimes deep- especially if you need a river to cross it- are quite high. Maybe they're good swimmers? Who knows. All I know is I can't get a picture of Huck Finn out of my head. |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 04:17 PM | -The point still remains: The poor little guys will drown! All I know is I can't get a picture of Huck Finn out of my head. -Agreed. I also just got the idea of adding a Halfling Island to my setting. |
| MerrikCale01-03-08, 04:17 PM | Hmm. I'm half wrong. What I get for skimming. I suppose among other things the design team doesn;t know the difference between a swamp and a river |
| GreenKnight01-03-08, 04:19 PM | Not necessarily. It just means that Halflings like to traverse all sorts of waterways. -The point still remains: The poor little guys will drown! I don't think it's such a big deal. People have no problem traversing great big oceans, despite the risk of drowning, there. In comparison to that, a four foot guy rolling down a river doesn't seem so crazy. |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 04:20 PM | -Rivers do feed into swamps. |
| GreenKnight01-03-08, 04:24 PM | If I ever run a D20 Modern campaign, I'm gonna base it in Miami, and I'm gonna have a tribe of savage Halflings based out of the Everglades, with alligator mounts. :D |
| Stigger01-03-08, 04:24 PM | Does make you wonder what sort of accent they're going to get though... Southern drawl ala Huck Finn maybe. Feh... Although the aligator idea is an intriguing one GK... |
| MarkusTay6301-03-08, 04:54 PM | I like the Alligator mounts as well. :D Perhaps the new halflings will get webbed toes in 4e, since they lost their hairy feet with 3e? BTW, we already did one of these in the Kara-Tur thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=798477) - the Shojo! Although not originally considered a halfling sub-race, we changeed it to be so - a hairy, heavy-drinking, semi-aquatic kind that lives near the shore or on Rivers. :D Also, the Marsh Drovers (Tun) in FR, and the Barge-folk (Rhennee) in GH would both serve well as the new halflings when running those worlds in 4e. I don't mind them, really, I already have about 12 different 'species' of Halfling IMG, so adding in one more won't hurt. That doesn't mean I'll be getting rid of the old ones, though (I still have the 2e ones living right along side the 3e ones). the more the merrier, I always say. I think if I give them webbed fingers and toes, I'll just call them Swamplings. :P Does make you wonder what sort of accent they're going to get though... Southern drawl ala Huck Finn... If one travels down river with an Orcish companion, will he refer to him as 'Greenskin' Jim? ;) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-03-08, 08:18 PM | The problem is that Wizards is deliberately creating a situation where if you don't change the setting, acquiring new players is going to be like pulling teeth with a hammer and tongs. 20 year campaigns don't survive without new blood, Rhee. I think if you've been running tons of campaigns for 20 years (that's the impression I've gotten), you've become savvy enough at the hobby that you shouldn't have much trouble attracting new people. And I mean that as a compliment.:) Besides, you wouldn't want to change the fundamentals of your setting for players that you already have in any case, would you? You have them as players, and they wouldn't want you to change the setting. So, the scenario you imagined doesn't need to exist. |
| Eli_the_Tanner01-03-08, 08:25 PM | From Wizards Presents: Races & Classes: Each race seems to have a clear “homeland”. Dwarves live in mountains, elves in forests. Now they come up with something for all major races. Humans are tied to plains, Halfling to rivers (swamps and marshes), Dragonborn to deserts (at least their great empire was in desert). I took it to mean that halflings are commonly native to riverside areas. With swamps and marshes included as other types of terrain that they can be found (like hills for dwaarves). All in all Halflings are going to be a bit more moist than they were before. |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 08:28 PM | All in all Halflings are going to be a bit more moist than they were before. -For better, or for ill? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-03-08, 08:38 PM | -For better, or for ill? I don't think "more moist" is the best description--makes me think "smelly".:) |
| Lord Karsus01-03-08, 08:45 PM | -Yyyyyyeeeeaaaaahhhh....Soooo.... |
| johnkretzer01-04-08, 04:47 AM | I think if you've been running tons of campaigns for 20 years (that's the impression I've gotten), you've become savvy enough at the hobby that you shouldn't have much trouble attracting new people. And I mean that as a compliment.:) Besides, you wouldn't want to change the fundamentals of your setting for players that you already have in any case, would you? You have them as players, and they wouldn't want you to change the setting. So, the scenario you imagined doesn't need to exist. It is sorta hard to attract new players when you tell them the $120+ on books isn't nearly as useful and oh yeah here is a 40 page house rule document... |
| Stigger01-04-08, 06:58 AM | That 40 pages largely depends on how hard it will be to actually implement 4e rules into the 'old' Realms. I'm not actually convinced its going to be anywhere near as impossible as the designers/developers would like us to think its going to be. You could probably pull it off in under 5 pages with just stuff geared towards spellcasters, and maybe a homebrewed bard and druid... 10 pages on the outside I'd say. |
| Lord Karsus01-04-08, 10:42 AM | It is sorta hard to attract new players when you tell them the $120+ on books isn't nearly as useful and oh yeah here is a 40 page house rule document... -Who needs to attract new players? There already is a bunch of them, isn't there? |
| MarkusTay6301-04-08, 06:02 PM | Okay, speed-read through this thing this morning at Border's (I would have taken my time, but their door-alarm was broken and the whole place was filled with a piercing wail. :( Anyway, WotC should be VERY happy I didn'y buy it - I wanted SO badly to highlite everything that bothered me and ask a slew of questions in the Designer's Thread. Now I don't remember most of it, because I blew through it so quickly. First thought - Everyone in 4e is Oriental? I understand Elves, and of course the new Gnome had a make-over... but why do Humans and Dwarves have 'Elven' Eyes?! :uh-huh: Trying to stay PC here, but you get my drift. I suppose the new psuedo-setting of 4e must be on the same planet as Rokugan, where caucasions never evolved. I'm all for consistent artwork in the new edition (lord knows we needed it), but I hope these 'fantasy' eyes don't end up in FR. I prefer my cultures all looking very different, thank you very much. Here's the funny part - in 3e the Halflings got a makeover and wound up looking like small Elves (Kender). Now they have a definate... don't know what the PC term would be this week, so I'll go with one I know... 'Afro-American' look about them. I realize that D&D has far too many prominent races with 'pink' skin tone, but thats one helluva change there! Don't know how I feel about it. I don't like changing the Halflings AGAIN, but it is an interesting look for them, to say the least. I'm just not comfortable with the new look, coupled with the old concept of Halflings making the best 'Thieves'... :rolleyes: The Mark Twain analogy may have been closer to the mark then we thought. I'm not sure if they are going to be changing the FR Halflings to become more like these - we had a least two different regions where players could who wanted a black PC could hail from (Turmish & Chult/Mezro), so I feel we were always pretty multi-racial - more so then most settings, I think. I need to get off this subject, it makes me uncomfortable to discuss humans in terms of 'races' within a game environment. Anyhow, Dwarven women got more of a buxom look (a'la Warcraft), rather then the old 'males with boobs' - I prefer that, and that was ret-conned for the most part with 3e anyway. Gnomes being just plain 'gone' from the PC races irks me, yet I don't know why. I never played one, never had one of my players run one, nor have I EVER been in campaign where anyone else used one (that I can remember). So why does it bother me so? Maybe because it was 'iconic', or maybe it's just because the designers didn't have a terrain type to place them in. Which brings me to my next point - why do the races each need their own seperate terrain? Plains, Swamps, Mountains, Forests... what next, Islands? Does ANY of THAT sound familiar? So... is each race going to be able to draw mana from their 'racial power-source' from now on? It just sounds like it is leaning toward MtG a little bit... Which brings me to yet another point - The Eladrin are Bloodelves from Warcraft, plain and simple. The artwork in R&C is nearly identical to that in WoW. http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Eladrin.jpg Tell me that Pic doesn't look just like the one in R&C. :bored: Then I looked at the Elves (the old Wood/Sylvan Elves), and I liked the pic. In fact, I liked it a lot... because I HAVE a Warhammer Wood Elf army, and thats what they look like. The cloak of Leaves looks like a WH Elven Waywatcher, or an Elf from IK. Not saying its a copy, since they all derive from the same arch-type (Tolkien), but its nothing all that interesting either. Then again, I should appreciate that some things look the same in 4e... Don't get me wrong - I liked the art, but it wasn't anything I haven't seen before (except maybe for those halflings...). Part of me is very glad everything still looks normal, but I was hoping the art to really "wow" me. I guess I really can't have it both ways. At least they don't all look like S&M Goth-bondage freaks like they did in the 3e PHB, and if they get rid of Mialee, I'll be happy with the 4e art. Oh, and lose those 'angler-fish' Star Elves, too.... Now, about the crunchier parts - I hate the Dragonborn!!! I hated Dragonlance because of the Draconians, and these are just those with a slightly different name. You'll never see anything 'draconic' in my games except for Dragons! I hope they don't insert these into FR - the Saurials are just fine. We have enough reptilian races in FR that we don't need to 'paste in' anymore. Tieflings - personally, I don't see their background being all that different then it is now. I saw lots of complaints about this, but I'm just not seeing much of a difference lore-wise. So now your great-grandaddy was a fiend, instead of your Papa? Who cares... that's the least of my worries with 4e coming. I like the look though, but it does harken back to Diablo/Warcraft type creatures (succubi). I like the idea that they'll be a race of their own now - the half-Orcs and Half-Elves have been heading that way for awhile now, so why not another race with mixed blood? I can understand players getting mad if they changed this in 3e, but this will be in 4e, and we will probably have at least a century for these changes to have come about. No Monks?! WTF!!! :banghead: My favorite class! Thats it, I'm going to go to Gencon and explode... Oh wait... that's Silar... My super-power is... annoying people... I have no idea how the mechanics will be in 4e, but I hope that there will at least be a talent tree for fighters to fight unarmed, until they give us some martial-arts love. In fact, the system almost seems set-up for way-cool martial arts, with all it's talk of "power sources" (Ki?). How hard could it be to take a typical fighter and optimize him for bare-handed combat? That might actually be a better way to go then creating a seperate class, if the rules are really as versatile as they sound. The same goes for Bard... I never ran one, but I don't want them to go Bye-bye in 4e! At the very least, give the rogue a talent path that will allow him to be a Bard (or an assassin, like it was in 2e). Personally, I think they could just take things like Bard and assassin and turn them into 'paths', using Feats or talents. In this way, you get a solution much like we got with the 3e Assassin PrC. Why can't ANY class learn to sing and become a bard, why just rogues? Warriors were known to become Bards, and I could see a Wizard doing it as well. I hope 4e decides how it wants to go with classes - I don't want to see it become a mess like 3e is, with dozens of base classes and hundreds of PrCs. I like the idea of feats and talent Trees deciding the kind of character you are, not multi-classing. Outside of the main four (maybe five with psions), everything can be done with feats and talents. Why do we need 20 different types of martial class? Anyhow, thats all I remember for now (and that was even way too much). Sorry for boring you all - I just thought I'd give my two nickels worth. The preview just makes me want to get my hands on the real rules already, even if I'm not entirely happy with the direction of some of the Races and Classes. |
| Fingoldfin01-04-08, 10:36 PM | I looked at Races and Classes at my local gaming store and my first thought was, "WotC wants $20.00 for this crap?!?" It's only a little bit bigger than a comic book. As far as content goes some of it I hated, some was interesting, but most of it was just blah. I just thought it was boring and I'm surprised people paid money for it. I offered the store's owner an old screwdriver and a can of Diet Coke for it. He told me to check back in a few weeks. ;) :P |
| Lord Karsus01-05-08, 05:39 PM | What the hell are you even talking about? -I don't know. I didn't write that. That's a perfect example of a crap-laiden excuse. We all have the ability to 'do' just about whatever we want. That doesn't mean we have the 'right' to do something. Nor does it mean we 'should' do something just because we can. Whining about WotC trying to make money is stupid. I'm not defending WotC by pointing out a painfully obvious fact. -That the Code of Conduct on these Messageboards doesn't prohibit one from speaking out against WotC, or the business practices of WotC. Thus, one has the ability and the right to so that. Just like you have the right to sell these people to stop complaining about said corporation and/or said business practices. -I don't necessarily care, but you like to "shout down the opposition", when it suits you. You get a voice. Everyone else gets a voice. Everyone is different, and has their own opinions, which, as long as they don't violate the Code of Conduct, they should be able to express freely. |
| MarkusTay6301-05-08, 05:43 PM | Stop fighting. :ahem: I was hoping you would have some commentary about what I wrote, and perhaps you and I could have one of those lovely 'heated discussions'. :P Instead, you went off-topic in your own thread. You have become each other's troll. Aren't you getting tired of defending the 4e Realms? I got bored with knocking it weeks ago. It is what it is, and we will all have our own seperate opinions and go our own ways when the s__t hits the fan in Aug. Until then, there's really no need to get bent out of shape over 'vaporware'. ;) Lets discuss the wierd changes to the races now - doesn't anyone else see what I am talking about with the Halflings? They changed their look... AGAIN! And even you got to admit, that Dwarven 'Transformer' Armor is pretty silly. |
| Lord Karsus01-05-08, 05:52 PM | First thought - Everyone in 4e is Oriental? I understand Elves, and of course the new Gnome had a make-over... but why do Humans and Dwarves have 'Elven' Eyes?! :uh-huh: -That's the current style of drawing. So why does it bother me so? Maybe because it was 'iconic', or maybe it's just because the designers didn't have a terrain type to place them in. -I played a Svirfneblin, once. Anyway, Gnomes are going away as a PC race, but whatever. They'll still be in the setting, and eventually, they'll be reintroduced as a PC race. So, until there, there are just going to be less Gnome adventurers. Maybe they are claiming to be Halflings. Why do the races each need their own seperate terrain? Plains, Swamps, Mountains, Forests... what next, Islands? Does ANY of THAT sound familiar? -Don't know, and don't like it, either. No Monks?! WTF!!! :banghead: My favorite class! -I'm sure that'll be a 'path', or whatever you want to call it. Stop fighting. -Jeeze, and you are one of the ones I am defending. :P |
| GreenKnight01-05-08, 06:08 PM | -I played a Svirfneblin, once. A friend of mine also played a Svirfneblin, once. I ran him through a solo mission one day and put him up against Germlaines. The Germlaine Chief almost kicked his ass. It was a pretty disgraceful showing on his part. Anyway, Gnomes are going away as a PC race, but whatever. This is from a post by Rich Baker. Gnomes aren't going to be covered as a PC race in the FR Campaign Guide or Player's Guide (there's material in the Monster Manual for that, however). Gnomes will have a PC write-up in the Monster Manual right off the bat, so that's not bad. They won't get the full PC write-up til '09, but from what I gather, what makes a PC write-up a PC write-up in 4E is a list of Racial Feats which you can select, like the Elven Precision Racial Feat. So Gnomes won't have those when 4E starts. While not ideal, IMO, that isn't much of a loss. |
| Mr_Miscellany01-05-08, 06:32 PM | -I don't know. I didn't write that. Fixed. -That the Code of Conduct on these Messageboards doesn't prohibit one from speaking out against WotC. The code of conduct isn't the be-all and end-all for people's behaviour. The code of conduct isn't a shield to hide behind so people don't have to defend questionable comments. But stupid is still stupid. And I'm tired of it. If you're going to "speak out" against WotC (the very phrase conjures images that are so extreme they aren't even applicable to reasoned discussion) think first. Rattling off whatever comes to mind doesn't cut it. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-05-08, 06:33 PM | Heya, Okay, speed-read through this thing this morning at Border's (I would have taken my time, but their door-alarm was broken and the whole place was filled with a piercing wail. :( Ugh, don't you just hate that? I managed to get my paws on the book myself (as well as a few other things I needed to catch up on - like the last two FR Super Modules, the first two books of the LP series... which I've complained about not having before)... so let me see what I can add. First thought - Everyone in 4e is Oriental? I understand Elves, and of course the new Gnome had a make-over... but why do Humans and Dwarves have 'Elven' Eyes?! :uh-huh: I wouldn't agree. They didn't all have them. I think at least one or two of the artists just have that style, but for the most part I don't think it was too prevalent. Here's the funny part - in 3e the Halflings got a makeover and wound up looking like small Elves (Kender). Now they have a definate... don't know what the PC term would be this week, so I'll go with one I know... 'Afro-American' look about them. I realize that D&D has far too many prominent races with 'pink' skin tone, but thats one helluva change there! Once again, I don't agree. They seem pretty much like they were in the art work in 3e... Go check your PHB. (You're not just saying that because they look like they wear their hair in dreads or cornrows, are you?) Gnomes being just plain 'gone' from the PC races irks me, yet I don't know why. I never played one, never had one of my players run one, nor have I EVER been in campaign where anyone else used one (that I can remember). So why does it bother me so? Maybe because it was 'iconic', or maybe it's just because the designers didn't have a terrain type to place them in. They haven't said they're gone, they've just said they haven't worked out where then fit into the grand scheme of things yet. We will just have to wait and see what they come up with - and I pray to the gods they finally shoot that tinker gnome concept in the head and bury it. Which brings me to my next point - why do the races each need their own seperate terrain? Plains, Swamps, Mountains, Forests... what next, Islands? Does ANY of THAT sound familiar? So... is each race going to be able to draw mana from their 'racial power-source' from now on? It just sounds like it is leaning toward MtG a little bit... *laughs* Yeah, I can see it. Still, it makes sense to have races adapted for the environment they live in. Which brings me to yet another point - The Eladrin are Bloodelves from Warcraft, palin and simple. The artwork in R&C is nearly identical to that in WoW. <snip image> Tell me that Pic doesn't look just like the one in R&C. :bored: There are at least two pictures of Eladrin in the book, and only one of them bears a passing resemblance to Blood Elves. The picture on page 39 looks nothing like a blood elf. The reason the other one (page 35) might seem like it is at least inspired by them is because of the red and gold colour scheme. And that is it. (To me, the picture screams "Sun Elf"!) Then I looked at the Elves (the old Wood/Sylvan Elves), and I liked the pic. In fact, I liked it a lot... because I HAVE a Warhammer Wood Elf army, and thats what they look like. The cloak of Leaves looks like a WH Elven Waywatcher, or an Elf from IK. Not saying its a copy, since they all derive from the same arch-type (Tolkien), but its nothing all that interesting either. Then again, I should appreciate that some things look the same in 4e... Oh, right now I think you're just seeing what you want to see. I have seen plenty of elves in plenty of settings that bear a resemblance. Not just in Warhammer. Don't get me wrong - I liked the art, but it wasn't anything I haven't seen before (except maybe for those halflings...). Part of me is very glad everything still looks normal, but I was hoping the art to really "wow" me. I guess I really can't have it both ways. At least they don't all look like S&M Goth-bondage freaks like they did in the 3e PHB, and if they get rid of Mialee, I'll be happy with the 4e art. Re: Halfings - go look at the artwork for Halflings in 3rd Ed again. IMHO, you're blowing that one right out of proportion... If they're changed, it's only minutely. Now, about the crunchier parts - I hate the Dragonborn!!! I hated Dragonlance because of the Draconians, and these are just those with a slightly different name. You'll never see anything 'draconic' in my games except for Dragons! I hope they don't insert these into FR - the Saurials are just fine. We have enough reptilian races in FR that we don't need to 'paste in' anymore. Can't say I'm too enthusiastic about them either. They really don't fit into either of my homebrews... And I can't see where they'll fit into FR, unless those falling dragon eggs hatched them out... But no, they won't find their way into my Realms. Tieflings - personally, I don't see their background being all that different then it is now. I saw lots of complaints about this, but I'm just not seeing much of a difference lore-wise. So now your great-grandaddy was a fiend, instead of your Papa? Who cares... that's the least of my worries with 4e coming. I like the look though, but it does harken back to Diablo/Warcraft type creatures (succubi). I like the idea that they'll be a race of their own now - the half-Orcs and Half-Elves have been heading that way for awhile now, so why not another race with mixed blood? I can understand players getting mad if they changed this in 3e, but this will be in 4e, and we will probably have at least a century for these changes to have come about. Tieflings have never been half demons or devils. They've always been someone with fiendish blood somewhere in their family tree, but they don't have a fiend for a direct parent. There was a template for that - half-fiend. No Monks?! WTF!!! :banghead: My favorite class! To quote the book: "The monk class is still on the horizon..." That doesn't mean no monk at all, it just probably means it won't be in the first PHB. This probably also applies to the Bard class. Anyhow, thats all I remember for now (and that was even way too much). Sorry for boring you all - I just thought I'd give my two nickels worth. The preview just makes me want to get my hands on the real rules already, even if I'm not entirely happy with the direction of some of the Races and Classes. Yes, I have to agree with you. I'm really looking forward to the release of the PHB now, this preview book has just whetted my appetite. Interesting things are ahead. |
| msatran01-05-08, 06:40 PM | That's a perfect example of a crap-laden excuse. We all have the ability to 'do' just about whatever we want. That doesn't mean we have the 'right' to do something. Nor does it mean we 'should' do something just because we can. Whining about WotC trying to make money is stupid. I'm not defending WotC by pointing out a painfully obvious fact. What the hell are you even talking about? No, seriously. For once I want to know what it is that motivates you to write such astonishingly, brain-crushingly, reason-numbing, colossally wrong-headed statements like the one you just did? You aren't actually suggesting that when a new edition sees print that everyone's characters blow up? Either that, or you've never played the game once and your comments about being a decades-long playing D&Der are all lies. Clearly, Mr. Miscellany, you are functionally illiterate. If you had ever read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and the ensuing sequels, you would understand the reference I was making in three seconds. That's the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard you make. Name calling will get you nowhere. Clearly, you don't tell the PC that their character doesn't exist anymore. But when you've spent 19-20 levels playing a character, and the player tells me "What the hell do I do, my character background is RUINED!!!!!!", the FUN has gone out of the game for that player. You talk a good game, but you don't walk it, because you lack the perception of a gamer social dynamic, where people gather together to have FUN, as I recall, you once suggested. So dealing with this five or six times, sometimes more, is always a problem. I've had people hang up their adventuring tights over edition switches before, and it's likely that it WILL happen again. But that doesn't mean it doesn't **** me off!!!! I like stories to end with the characters they start with, most of the time. And I run a pretty tough game. Your choices in these situation are as follows: 1) Work to integrate the PC's character into the new cosmology. In all of these cases, this doesn't work, because the PC's DELIBERATELY chose abyssal origins for their characters, and the flavor text of the 4th edition sourcebook says...ALL DEVILS! You don't retconn five years of campaign history just to satisfy one player when it will **** off the other twelve to fifteen. The new flavor text is what's ruining the game, period. 2) Run a new game. Completely. No Realms, no NOTHING. This has no appeal to my group at large, other than as a beer and pretzels game. I'm too hardwired into the Realms to do this another way. 3) Say "Screw you, Wizards, 4th edition sucks." This is an option. It's not my preferred option because I won't be able to get new players for my game anymore without pulling teeth, but sure. 4) Take two years off from gaming and rewrite EVERYTHING the way I want it by hand. By then, I figure D+D will have tanked completely and be in the hands of Paizo where it belongs, just in time for it's inevitable 3.5 ressurrection. So then I'll have a 4.0 gameworld that is NOT USABLE! :) 5) No Eilistraee? No Red Knight? No Seldarine? Wizards is taking the FUN out of the game for everyone who loves the Forgotten Realms, making them read a "Scroll of Learning Disability" by treating them like idiots, and making them start again. Warlord? There should NOT be a "LEADER" class. EVER! No Monk? No Druid? No Bard? The REALMS SURVIVES ON BARD AND DRUID! IT'S INTRINSIC TO THE LORE! 6) I fixed your spelling errors. I couldn't look at them anymore. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 12:56 AM | A friend of mine also played a Svirfneblin, once. I ran him through a solo mission one day and put him up against Germlaines. The Germlaine Chief almost kicked his ass. It was a pretty disgraceful showing on his part. -Heh. The Svirfneblin was one of my first characters. All I really remember about him was that his name was Zymm Knucklerock, and that he had a Panther with the Shadow Creature template as a traveling companion. I gotta ask my DM if he remembers that, and why... This is from a post by Rich Baker. Gnomes will have a PC write-up in the Monster Manual right off the bat, so that's not bad. They won't get the full PC write-up til '09, but from what I gather, what makes a PC write-up a PC write-up in 4E is a list of Racial Feats which you can select, like the Elven Precision Racial Feat. So Gnomes won't have those when 4E starts. While not ideal, IMO, that isn't much of a loss. -Which is basically what I said. Gnomes don't have a write-up to be a playable race yet, so until then, there is just going to be a shortage of Gnomish adventurer PCs (Not necessarily NPCs, though). The code of conduct isn't the be-all and end-all for people's behaviour. The code of conduct isn't a shield to hide behind so people don't have to defend questionable comments. But stupid is still stupid. And I'm tired of it. If you're going to "speak out" against WotC (the very phrase conjures images that are so extreme they aren't even applicable to reasoned discussion) think first. Rattling off whatever comes to mind doesn't cut it. -Well, all I am going to say about that is that if you talk the talk, you should walk the walk too... |
| GreenKnight01-06-08, 01:00 AM | -Which is basically what I said. Gnomes don't have a write-up to be a playable race yet, so until then, there is just going to be a shortage of Gnomish adventurer PCs (Not necessarily NPCs, though). Ok, I'm pretty confused, here. They'll have a write-up in the Monster Manual (Which comes out the same month as the PHB) to be a playable race. So how does that equal them not having a write-up to be a playable race? The lack of Racial Feats? Hardly a loss, when you can just get other Feats, instead. |
| MarkusTay6301-06-08, 01:15 AM | -Jeeze, and you are one of the ones I am defending. :PBy-the-by, you just happen to post before I did, most of that was aimed at Miscelleny (except for that one sentence you quoted, of course, which was addressed at both of you). People being thrilled with a setting they haven't seen is just as bad, in my book, as people whining about a setting they haven't seen. Right now, we know very little, so it makes no sense to be either pro or con at this point. I don't partricularly like everything I'm hearing about the new setting - it certainly doesn't sound like the FR I'm used to - but their might be some useful things in the FRCG... we just don't know yet. However, Lord Karsus wishing to "defend the Realms that were" is admirable, and appropriate, because anywho who still thinks they will be the same hasn't been listening to the designers at all. I think a large portion of the fan base will stick with the 3e timeframe and just adapt, so having a place to come for advice on the 'old material' is not a bad thing IMHO. I'm fairly certain most of the folks at CK won't be 'moving forward'. ;) |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 01:23 AM | Ok, I'm pretty confused, here. They'll have a write-up in the Monster Manual (Which comes out the same month as the PHB) to be a playable race. So how does that equal them not having a write-up to be a playable race? The lack of Racial Feats? Hardly a loss, when you can just get other Feats, instead. -I have no clue what statistical data will be availible in either book. But, if Gnomes are going to be appearing in the Monster Manual, and not the Player's Handbook, it seems to me that there is some disconnect preventing them from being a PC race- if they were, after all, they'd be in the Player's Handbook, not the Monster Manual. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 01:26 AM | By-the-by, you just happen to post before I did, most of that was aimed at Miscelleny (except for that one sentence you quoted, of course, which was addressed at both of you). -Gotcha. People being thrilled with a setting they haven't seen is just as bad, in my book, as people whining about a setting they haven't seen. Right now, we know very little, so it makes no sense to be either pro or con at this point. -Based on what we know, it's not that hard to form an opinion, one way or another. |
| MarkusTay6301-06-08, 01:26 AM | Supposedly, you will level up in your race, as well as your class now. that means no full write-up will leave you very short on character development. Of course, all that might have changed since they threw that concept at us after Gencon; I don't seem to recall anything about the racial leveling in the R&C book. But then again, I breezed through it pretty quickly... @Storm Silverhand: Because I basically just flipped through it, spot-reading parts that interested me, I didn't really get a very comprehensive picture. My views are based on a "quick glimpse", so I could easily be mistaken by my first impressions. I also thought the facial features of at least on halfling looked very 'African', for lack of a better word. I guess it was just the odd stuff that caught my eye. One more thing - they didn't sound very sure of themselves about the relationship of the Eladrin and the Elves (and Drow) - they never clearly defined which was the 'over-race', if any, and that they were all simply 'related' (with each race having different ideas about how). Doesn't that seem a little odd, that at this point in the game, there is still a lot that isn't set in stone? :confused: |
| GreenKnight01-06-08, 01:26 AM | -I have no clue what statistical data will be availible in either book. But, if Gnomes are going to be appearing in the Monster Manual, and not the Player's Handbook, it seems to me that there is some disconnect preventing them from being a PC race- if they were, after all, they'd be in the Player's Handbook, not the Monster Manual. They've stated that several races in the Monster Manual will get write-ups as playable races. They won't be as detailed as the PHB write-ups, but they'll still be playable. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 01:28 AM | They've stated that several races in the Monster Manual will get write-ups as playable races. They won't be as detailed as the PHB write-ups, but they'll still be playable. -What's the point of putting them in the Monster Manual, then? That's...silly. |
| GreenKnight01-06-08, 01:29 AM | Supposedly, you will level up in your race, as well as your class now. that means no full write-up will leave you very short on character development. That's now how it's going to work. Reread the relevant article. That's an idea they had early on, but which they threw out, replacing the '20-level race' with Racial Feats. A Monster Manual write-up will probably be lacking those, but that's not so bad, as the Gnome would be no worse off then he is, now. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 01:30 AM | -What is 'leveling up your race'? Something akin to taking your race as your class, like in Savage Species? |
| GreenKnight01-06-08, 01:33 AM | -What's the point of putting them in the Monster Manual, then? That's...silly. Because they can't pack every single race in the PHB. And in the Gnomes case, they probably didn't have enough time to come up with appropriate Racial Feats for them, so they decided to just put the base stats in the Monster Manual, and come back to Gnomes in the PHB2 in order to give them more variety. The lack of Racial Feats doesn't mean they're going to be unplayable, though. For instance, look at the Elf PHB entry HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20071221). Let's say that, isntead of the PHB, the Elf appeared in the Monster Manual. The Elf would hardly be unplayable if this is what appeared in reference to him. Elf Quick, wary archers who freely roam the forests and wilds. Racial Traits Average Height: 5' 7"-6' 0" Average Weight: 100-130 lb. Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom Size: Medium Speed: 7 squares Vision: Low-light Languages: Common, Elven Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Perception Elven Accuracy Elf Racial Power With an instant of focus, you take careful aim at your foe and strike with the legendary accuracy of the elves. Encounter Free Action Personal Effect: Reroll an attack roll. Use the second roll, even if it's lower. Elven Weapon Training: You gain proficiency with the longbow and the shortbow. Wild Step: You ignore difficult terrain when you shift (even if you have a power that allows you to shift multiple squares). Group Awareness: You grant non-elf allies within 5 squares a +1 racial bonus to Perception checks. Elven Accuracy: You can use elven accuracy as an encounter power. No Racial Feats like Elven Precision, sure, but that's if you want to add extra racial flavoring to your character. It isn't necessary to play. -What is 'leveling up your race'? Something akin to taking your race as your class, like in Savage Species? It's an idea that they considered and threw away. Don't worry about it. |
| MarkusTay6301-06-08, 01:39 AM | -What is 'leveling up your race'? Something akin to taking your race as your class, like in Savage Species?Supposedly, early on, they said that characters would level up in both class and race. That means instead of getting a +2 Str at first level, you might get a +1 every few levels. the reasoning behind this was that race only mattered for the first couple of levels, and then after that everyone was the same. they wanted to keep the 'racial flavor' strong throghout the character progression. That was one of the things I was loving about 4e, so if they dropped that idea, I'm starting to get upset... again... failed dreams and broken promises... and all that sort of cr@p... :( |
| GreenKnight01-06-08, 01:45 AM | How is it a broken promise when they tell you in the very same article that they got rid of the idea? *scratches head* :confused: Well, over the next few years, things changed, as things are wont to do. We blew the game out to thirty levels, but put your most significant racial choices in the first ten. Above that, other choices started to crowd out room for special abilities coming from your race. In the final version of 4th Edition, most of your racial traits come into play right out of the gate at 1st level—dwarven resilience, elven evasion, a half-elf’s inspiring presence, and so on. As you go up levels, you can take racial feats to make those abilities even more exciting and gain new capabilities tied to your race. You can also take race-specific powers built into your class, which accomplish a lot of what racial substitution levels used to do: a dwarf fighter with the friend of earth power can do something that other 10th-level fighters just can’t do. The rules have changed a lot since that first idea of the 20-level race, but they still serve the same purpose: to make sure that your race stays not just relevant but actually important all the way up through thirty levels of adventure. Anyway, I'm glad they got rid of that. It would've eaten up way to much space in the PHB. |
| MarkusTay6301-06-08, 01:48 AM | Where's that from - I hadn't seen that it had changed. Oh well... houserule time. :P |
| GreenKnight01-06-08, 01:50 AM | From here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070816a). It's in the same article in which the 20-level races were first mentioned. |
| Reneshat01-06-08, 02:47 AM | 3) Say "Screw you, Wizards, 4th edition sucks." This is an option. It's not my preferred option because I won't be able to get new players for my game anymore without pulling teeth, but sure. I've long thought that this was your best option. This also gives you the opportunity to take a look at the new rules at your convenience and decide when, how and if you want to implement them. You could wait until the additional rules that are vital to the campaign come out. You could then strip rules of flavor, and simply switch over if that is what you want. Or you could take a look at the final rules, decide they are crap, and forget about them. Either way, simply ignoring the edition change initially would be in your best interest, and wouldn't even effectively hurt your chance of getting new players initially, seeing how for the first year or so, you are still going to have more people that know and play 3.5 than 4ed most likely. P.S. Even I missed the "puff of logic" comment initially. I had to go back and reread what you wrote when you mentioned Douglas Adams. |
| Storm_Silverhand01-06-08, 03:24 AM | Heya, One more thing - they didn't sound very sure of themselves about the relationship of the Eladrin and the Elves (and Drow) - they never clearly defined which was the 'over-race', if any, and that they were all simply 'related' (with each race having different ideas about how). Doesn't that seem a little odd, that at this point in the game, there is still a lot that isn't set in stone? :confused: Oh, not really. The book was put together in August 2007, according to the book anyway. :) So they've probably made more progress since then... I hope! :D |
| johnkretzer01-06-08, 03:46 AM | -What's the point of putting them in the Monster Manual, then? That's...silly. It isn't a new idea as serveral races in the Monster Manuel 3.5 had similar extended enteries for playing them as a PC(I.E Tieflings and Assimar). Though it seems that 3.x was better suited for this concept. But then again 3.x was simpler (and not to mention superior) in that monsters, NPCs, and PCs followed generaly the same rules. I wqould also make a minor point though...why are they assuming Players will have access to the monster manuel. Personaly if my players need to get something from that book(I.E summon monsters etc.) I don't mind it. But I do know certain DMs have major issues with it. So I doubt they will change their opinions and allow players to look though the MM. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 10:36 AM | I wqould also make a minor point though...why are they assuming Players will have access to the monster manuel. Personaly if my players need to get something from that book(I.E summon monsters etc.) I don't mind it. But I do know certain DMs have major issues with it. So I doubt they will change their opinions and allow players to look though the MM. -Interesting point. I know my DM has a House Rule that you can't randomly just look in the Monster Manual for info unless you have 10 ranks in Knowledge: Nature. |
| MarkusTay6301-06-08, 10:46 AM | From here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070816a). It's in the same article in which the 20-level races were first mentioned.Hmmmm... not sure if I read that (its been a few months), or if I heard it elsewhere through a blog or other post-Gencon source. Just for that, I'm turning class abilities into feats, and have everyone level up in their race only. :P Makes more sense that way - What you are defines you much more then your occupation. they've probably made more progress since then... I hope! :DWhy is it that when they (the designers) and 'progress' are used in the same sentence, I'm filled with trepedition? I've never had the word 'progress' give me chills before... :rolleyes: |
| Mr_Miscellany01-06-08, 03:02 PM | If you had ever read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and the ensuing sequels, you would understand the reference I was making in three seconds. I’m not the first to have missed your pathetic little reference. If you’re going to whine and complain about WotC, at least do us the courtesy of being clear and concise about it. I don’t have the time to unravel your innuendo. Parsing your statements is hard enough already. Clearly, you don't tell the PC that their character doesn't exist anymore. But when you've spent 19-20 levels playing a character, and the player tells me "What the hell do I do, my character background is RUINED!!!!!!", the FUN has gone out of the game for that player. It would appear to me that you’re not doing your job. How does the player tell you their background is ruined? Have you already decided to incorporate 4E into your supposedly long-running, high player count FR campaign? If not, they should have exactly ZERO problems. Do what I do: WAIT. BE PATIENT. THINK. Don’t set yourself up for failure by making the decision to change over ahead of time. The players in my game are reasonably aware of some the changes coming....but nobody is on their deathbed or freaking out. That’s because there’s no good reason to be. I've had people hang up their adventuring tights over edition switches before, and it's likely that it WILL happen again. That’s their problem. Not WotC’s. Not yours. Unless -as I stated before- you’ve given your players no choice in the matter because you’ve already decided to advance your game’s timeline and incorporate the changes. Your choices in these situation are as follows: Wait...is the problem that you don’t want to convert existing players, or that you want to be able to invite in new people? 6) I fixed your spelling errors. I couldn't look at them anymore. I’d put an occasional spelling error on my part ahead of your impossible, problem-creating leaps of logic any day. Any day. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-06-08, 04:55 PM | And even you got to admit, that Dwarven 'Transformer' Armor is pretty silly. Yes, I noticed that pic. Very, very silly! |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 08:05 PM | I’m not the first to have missed your pathetic little reference. If you’re going to whine and complain about WotC, at least do us the courtesy of being clear and concise about it. I don’t have the time to unravel your innuendo. Parsing your statements is hard enough already. -The man is quite intelligent. As arrogant and sure of myself I am, in terms of my relative intelligence, I have no doubt that msa is smarter than I, you, and most of us here. His mind works at a mile a minute. Yes, I noticed that pic. Very, very silly! -Yeah, msa was pointing out the similarities to Voltron. |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-06-08, 08:23 PM | I'm surprised you know what Voltron is LK... And for those who don't.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC_Z-ebp9Es |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 08:24 PM | I'm surprised you know what Voltron is LK... -WTF!? I'm not dumb! :P |
| XHereticX01-06-08, 08:28 PM | -WTF!? I'm not dumb! :P Nah, this is Karsus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60og9gwKh1o |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-06-08, 08:31 PM | -WTF!? I'm not dumb! :P But I was under the impretion that Voltron was before your time. |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 08:39 PM | Nah, this is Karsus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60og9gwKh1o -Indeed, it is. But I was under the impretion that Voltron was before your time. -It was, but that doesn't mean I don't know what it is. My favorite baseball team hasn't player in exactly fifty years now, both of my favorite musicians died long before I was born... |
| XHereticX01-06-08, 08:48 PM | That or tell him chicks won't go out with him if they see him reading that. Darn it, so that's why girls woun't go out with me...:( As for the book, its a 96 page piece of crap which is a utter waste of money that I can spend elsewhere (like on video games). Really, $20 which in the end will make you even more depressed than before if your a Realms fan. The system is good, the changes the Realms underwent to accomodate them, bad. I think realms gaming in 4e Realms is going to be a utter bust. I personally am going homebrew (since nobody around here likes playing in the Realms anyway and now they have even less reason to want to) |
| WizO_Mimir01-06-08, 09:00 PM | I suggest everyone take a deep breath before responding to any posts. There is no need to insult anyone -- for any reason -- when discussing a topic. Keep in mind that flaming and baiting are violations of the Code of Conduct (http://www.wizards.com/coc). Read it, love it, live it. I now return you to your regularly scheduled messageboards. |
| MarkusTay6301-06-08, 09:06 PM | The Numa Numa Guy!!! What a Blast from the Past! :D I hope he gets to be a greater god in 4e! (Heh, sillier things have happened) Hey, Voltron was AFTER my time, and even I new who he was. Gawd... I HATE Giant robots. :ahem: Maybe the new slogan will be "Dwarven Armor; More then meets the eye!" You know, thinking about Dwarven Armor got me in the mood to listen to Sabbath's Iron Man (for some strange reason), so I Youtubed it and found one with the lyrics. You know, after reading along with the lyrics, I got a wonderful idea for manshoon in 4e! Picture it - he dies, they bury him... 50 years later and it's pouring rain, a lightening bolt strikes his unmarked grave, and a boney hand thrusts its way up through the soil... During this whole scene, Ironman plays... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwywugjy3BY) :devil: Sorry, but some inspiration leaps out at me when I least expect it. A Lich that is trapped in a fused set of armor - what do you guys think? :D |
| XHereticX01-06-08, 09:15 PM | The Numa Numa Guy!!! What a Blast from the Past! :D I hope he gets to be a greater god in 4e! (Hey, sillier things have happened) Hey, Voltron was AFTER my time, and even I new who he was. Gawd... I HATE Giant robots. :ahem: Maybe the new slogan will be "Dwarven Armor; More then meets the eye!" You know, thinking about Dwarven Armor got me in the mood to listen to Sabbath's Iron Man (for some strange reason), so I Youtubed it and found one with the lyrics. You know, after reading along with the lyrics, I got a wonderful idea for manshoon in 4e! Picture it - he dies, they bury him... 50 years later and it's pouring rain, a lightening bolt strikes his unmarked grave, and a boney hand thrusts its way up through the soil... During this whole scene, Ironman plays... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwywugjy3BY) :devil: Sorry, but some inspiration leaps out at me when I least expect it. A Lich that is trapped in a fused set of armor - what do you guys think? :D Hmm, smells like FMA spirits.;) The Numa Numa guy should become an overdeity, I mean, isn't that song genius or what? |
| MarkusTay6301-06-08, 09:17 PM | FMA? :confused: Full Metal? The Numa Numa guy should become an overdeity, I mean, isn't that song genius or what?Definately :D |
| XHereticX01-06-08, 09:18 PM | FMA? :confused: Fullmetal Alchemist |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-06-08, 09:19 PM | As long is a cler....Wait a second... A duskblade lich...HmmmHey... Let's make a deal MK, you don't diss Giant Robots and I don't diss HP, okay, I mean PokeCrap is one thing but, Giant Robots c'mon that's like dissing all the 80s |
| XHereticX01-06-08, 09:21 PM | FMA? :confused: Full Metal? Definately :D Ahh, you must not watch anime. One of the characters is a living suit of armor that has a human spirit trapped inside it. |
| MarkusTay6301-06-08, 09:22 PM | Fullmetal AlchemistAlphonse is NOTHING like an Unded Manshoon! I was thinking more of a 'smelly' Dr. Doom.... http://www.samruby.com/Villains/DoctorDoom/DrDoomChap.gif |
| XHereticX01-06-08, 09:23 PM | Alphonse is NOTHING like an Unded manshoon! I was thinking more of a 'smelly' Dr. Doom.... Wait, is it Manshoon's undead body that is inside the armor or is it his spirit??? |
| MarkusTay6301-06-08, 09:29 PM | Nah, Edward's spirit is trapped inside the armor - the Manshoon Lich would be trapped inside the armor physically, with the armor fused to his decrepit, rotten body. Its more like Spawn meets Dr. Doom! :D Of course, he'd have to find a way of casting spells inside a suit of Full Plate armor... A Battlemage! :dancin: |
| XHereticX01-06-08, 09:35 PM | Nah, Edward's spirit is trapped inside the armor - the Manshoon Lich would be trapped inside the armor physically, with the armor fused to his decrepit, rotten body. Its more like Spawn meets Dr. Doom! :D Of course, he'd have to find a way of casting spells inside a suit of Full Plate armor... A Battlemage! :dancin: Ahh, my mistake then. Yes, then it would essentially be a mummified Dr. Doom. A battlemage. I like your way of thinking;) (you have gotten Oblivion now haven't you) Oh, what would be even better is if you made the undead suit of armor a god. |
| MarkusTay6301-06-08, 09:45 PM | When he was entombed (by some 'good guys'), he was encased in a suit of Eldritch Armor that basically funtioned as a self-contained magic-dead zone. What the heroes didn't realize is that the armor showed up right after the ToT - it was really the trapped essence of the god Bhaal! :devil: The god was trapped in that form (much like Myrkul is trapped as a crown), and it was used to seal manshoon away so he couldn't come back (and his contigencies couldn't kick-in). Then, when that lightning bolt hit (an accident? or divine intervention?), the trapped divine essence 'seaped' into Manshoon's corpse and re-animated him. Now, the spirit inside could be Manshoon... or Bhaal... or some combination of both... or perhaps something else entirely... :coolcthul |
| msatran01-06-08, 09:54 PM | Wait. A...Warforged? Too much like Eberron? :) Thanks for the boost, Lord Karsus. The thing about "Wait and See" is that it doesn't give dungeon masters adequate time to prepare. Maybe your game, Mr. Miscellany doesn't have 60 semi-active PC's in it. Herein lies the problem. I have to be fair to everyone. Being fair to everyone is not as easy as it looks. For a guy like you, I would think it would be simple. But you are not in my position. Several of my players have social difficulties. They have trouble finding jobs. They have health issues. They have money issues. You want to talk about real world impact on a game, let's talk about that. Each of these new rulebooks is going to cost 40 bucks. Those rulebooks would set me back 120 dollars. Even unemployed (Which won't last long), I can afford that. They can't. There's no way on this earth that I can ask people who can barely afford the rent to purchase these books. And in a bad economy, Wizards has the nerve to publish a 20 dollar pair of books that contain no useful information and no mechanics. Geniuses. A lot of gamers are not twelve year olds. They are people in their thirties and forties with lives and children and bills to pay. Wizards has forsaken the tradition of the hobby for a quick buck. We already live in a world where most skilled job positions require constant reeducation. Do you really want this in your hobby? Wizards is currently ignoring Local Gaming Stores in favor of mass market businesses like Amazon, Borders, and Barnes and Noble. What they don't realize is that if people don't have places to play the game, the business will die because there are no places for gamers to gather. The attempt to gather the online market doesn't change the fact that gaming stores usually have tables in addition to the merchandise. Wizards intends to supplant the LGSes with fancy graphics and internet logic. It's a marketing strategy, but it's a bad one. Without your local gaming store, the system that Wizards is building will collapse, because no one new can learn the game. The same thing is happening with Magic cards and online retailers. The cards are cheaper online, for the most part, so people order them online. But where do they actually play the game? Hasbro prefers to do business with bulk retailers, because that's what they know how to do. Unfortunately, it doesn't fix the core of the problem, which is that this new game is not designed to support the LGSes. Wizards needs to rethink it's entire marketing strategy, or soon, you won't be able to go to a local gaming store and play D+D with a group of friends, because there won't BE any. And that, in essence, is my problem with 4th edition and the Realms. It's targeted to a group of people who A) Aren't you and B) Aren't me. That's one of the reasons why I've been so tolerant of your "Position." Marketing strategy is everything in the modern world. Customer Service is everything, too, as we move into a more service oriented society from a labor oriented society. Karl Marx talks about this in some of his economic texts. You might want to read them. Everything I've seen about fourth edition indicates that people like me, Rhee, Lord Karsus, and even you, Mr. Miscellany, are not the target market for this game. The language that they use in talking to readers is sarcastic, ignorant (Especially in the case of Logan Bonner, who didn't read the Tumble rules for 3.5 ever), and occasionally (In the passages on the 4e Cleric) borders on hate speech. And yeah, in a lot of gaming groups "Power Gamer" or "Healer Monkey" borders on hate speech. I spend most of my time when I think about RPGs thinking "What will this mean for my game? How can I make this more fun for my players?" It's very hard to do that when the language built into the marketing for the game is such that people like me, and people like you, too, are targeted with language like that, because it proves that A) They don't play the game the way I do and B) They don't play the game the way you do either. I'm not telling you to change your views. I am telling you that you should be more wary and read the text more closely than you are. People who talk in generalities like they do in Races and Classes usually don't have anything to say, and in the end, when the reader sees the end result, they feel that they've been lied to. So that's where I stand. I think your wait and see stance is largely belied by the words coming out of their own mouths, and you aren't being guarded enough. If it's really great, YEAH! I'll switch. Damn the torpedoes. Full speed ahead. What's best for my gaming group is what's best! It's just that after 30 years of watching D+D jump off a cliff over and over again, I have very little reason to trust Hasbro's colossal, mass market advertising machine. Maybe you've had a different set of life experiences. Maybe you are like Lord Karsus and they've ruined the Realms for you because you've read the novels and that's what your experience of the Realms is. The question is whether or not you feel that their marketing strategy is a valid one, and to be quite honest, if I had someone talk that kind of smack about me at a gaming table and call me a powergamer because I happened to like playing a cleric, I would consider walking out that door and never coming back to that game. Perhaps it is you, sir, who need to be more careful before you judge. |
| XHereticX01-06-08, 09:55 PM | When he was entombed (by some 'good guys'), he was encased in a suit of Eldritch Armor that basically funtioned as a self-contained magic-dead zone. What the heroes didn't realize is that the armor showed up right after the ToT - it was really the trapped essence of the god Bhaal! :devil: The god was trapped in that form (much like Myrkul is trapped as a crown), and it was used to seal manshoon away so he couldn't come back (and his contigencies couldn't kick-in). Then, when that lightning bolt hit (an accident? or divine intervention?), the trapped divine essence 'seaped' into Manshoon's corpse and re-animated him. Now, the spirit inside could be Manshoon... or Bhaal... or some combination of both... or perhaps something else entirely... :coolcthul Hmm, this could spell trouble for Fzoul Chembryl as Manshoon wants revenge and Bhaal may possibly want to steal power away from Bane (who betrayed him in the time of troubles). Interesting... Deathstalkers gonna be involved too? Well, a possible plot would be that Manshoon/Bhaal enter the Abyss and becomes a demon lord. Soon the Deathstalkers show a sudden burst of vitality and begin building strange temples that contain portals to the Abyss. They start a new kind of undeath cult that has a focus on youth (yes, I am ripping off DL here a little) and vitality instead of rotting bones and necromancy and Bhaal/Manshoon uses this to attract many young followers, who eventually are all transformed into Cursts and Vampires. As the youth of Faerun flock to these temple seeking eternal beauty and immortality, the Deathstalkers carrying out acts of sabotage against the chruches of Bane, Cyric, and Kelemvor Manshoon/Bhaal meanwhile, builds an army of demons in the abyss, which along with his new army of undead. Waiting until he grows strong enough, he plans to attack Bane, Cyric, and Kelemvor and claim all of Jergal's original porfolios, turning him into the ultimate force of evil on Faerun. |
| GreenKnight01-06-08, 11:23 PM | ... |
| Lord Karsus01-06-08, 11:35 PM | A Lich that is trapped in a fused set of armor - what do you guys think? :D -A character like that is featured in the Forgotten Realms comics, am I not mistaken? ... -Very talkative, I see. |
| Reneshat01-07-08, 12:26 AM | *various points* Most of your complaints are very valid. In fact, some of your economic (and economic repercussion) complaints are barely touching the surface. However, Karl Marx based most of his theories on ideas that history (and common sense) have shown to be wrong. I told myself that I wouldn't get into this, but when I read Das Kapital, I could barely contain my urge to repeatedly bash my head into a wall at times. This isn't an attempt to flare this thread up with a debate on Marxism, I just felt an uncontrollable desire to throw that out there. |
| GreenKnight01-07-08, 12:35 AM | -Very talkative, I see. My original post would've probably gotten me a Warning. Besides, it wasn't Forgotten Realms related, anyway. |
| Lord Karsus01-07-08, 12:45 AM | My original post would've probably gotten me a Warning. Besides, it wasn't Forgotten Realms related, anyway. -In today's day and age, it isn't worth it. |
| 18DELTA01-07-08, 01:24 AM | Yes, I noticed that pic. Very, very silly! -It reminded me of a "Gundam Wing".:rolleyes: |
| 18DELTA01-07-08, 01:30 AM | I'm surprised you know what Voltron is LK... And for those who don't.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC_Z-ebp9Es -I grew up watching "Voltron", both series.:) Along with "Starblazer's", The "D&D" cartoon, "ROBOTECH", "The Transformer's", "G.I. Joe", and last but not least "Thunder Cats"!:cool: :D |
| 18DELTA01-07-08, 01:33 AM | When he was entombed (by some 'good guys'), he was encased in a suit of Eldritch Armor that basically funtioned as a self-contained magic-dead zone. What the heroes didn't realize is that the armor showed up right after the ToT - it was really the trapped essence of the god Bhaal! :devil: The god was trapped in that form (much like Myrkul is trapped as a crown), and it was used to seal manshoon away so he couldn't come back (and his contigencies couldn't kick-in). Then, when that lightning bolt hit (an accident? or divine intervention?), the trapped divine essence 'seaped' into Manshoon's corpse and re-animated him. Now, the spirit inside could be Manshoon... or Bhaal... or some combination of both... or perhaps something else entirely... :coolcthul -Like Thor when he wore "The Destroyer Armor"!!!:D |
| Lord Karsus01-07-08, 01:51 AM | -It reminded me of a "Gundam Wing".:rolleyes: -Knocking Pokemon is one thing. But, you leave Gundam out of this. |
| 18DELTA01-07-08, 02:10 AM | -Knocking Pokemon is one thing. But, you leave Gundam out of this. -Ha! So you like "Gundam wing" too? I like the Model's, the cartoons, well I really dont want to get banned today.;) I used to buy the Model's over in Korea, when I was stationed there in the Army. It was that or get drunk, which getting drunk got really old fast. Or play D&D which kept me off alot of blotter reports!:) I think I still got a bunch of them, unless my evil Nephews got em!:eek: You do got to admit that one dwarf looks a lot like a "mobile suit".:cool: |
| Stigger01-07-08, 06:49 AM | Starblazers... now that's a name I haven't heard in a long, long, long time... don't even remember it beyond a few hazy images. |
| msatran01-07-08, 09:59 AM | Most of your complaints are very valid. In fact, some of your economic (and economic repercussion) complaints are barely touching the surface. However, Karl Marx based most of his theories on ideas that history (and common sense) have shown to be wrong. I told myself that I wouldn't get into this, but when I read Das Kapital, I could barely contain my urge to repeatedly bash my head into a wall at times. This isn't an attempt to flare this thread up with a debate on Marxism, I just felt an uncontrollable desire to throw that out there. The problem people have with Marx is that SOME of his ideas are wrong. But using Marx to support a particular point does not make you a Marxist, any more than being a corporate executive means that you believe every word Adam Smith ever wrote. In this case, Marx tells us that the most troubled times are the gaps between economic stages. John Maynard Keynes also tells us that economic expansions and contractions can be broken by spending money, however, economic stimulus spent at the point of contraction (Which is largely now) has a lesser effect. The reason why they pushed the D+D Books back to June isn't because they won't be done in May. They want that final push on Sales in June because it makes their economic design team for Hasbro look better. Releasing the Monster Manual in July doesn't benefit their quarterly plan. |
| MarkusTay6301-07-08, 10:01 AM | Wait. A...Warforged? Too much like Eberron? :) More like Deathlok, from Marvel Comics - http://www.marveldirectory.com/pictures/individuals/d_1d/deathlok.gif -A character like that is featured in the Forgotten Realms comics, am I not mistaken?There is? :confused: I only read two of them, so I have no idea, unless you're talking about the Golem with the trapped spirit of a Dwarf (?) inside. But once again, that is more like Alphonse Elric, including the fact that it's a good guy. I'm talking about something that would be like a Lich trapped inside a suit of Eldritch Armor - something like Shredder's armor from TMNT. @XHereticX - I like that - a new cult forming around it - I'd like an Archfiend to somehow be behind it all (the lightning bolt), perhaps Asmodeus himself! Perhaps this is his first move to build a power base inside of FR? See, now these are the kinds of plots I wouldn't mind seeing in 4e - they'd carry over some of the stuff from 3e into the future. As for Fzoul - I don't think he'd be around anymore, but you never know. Is he a Chosen now? Anyhow, if he's not a chosen, we could always pit Fzoul's Grandkid (Poztaa Fzoul) against him, and just for a twist, have HIM be a good guy (The 'Enlightened Despots' Heresy?) Its all good... at least my imagination has kicked in again. :D -Like Thor when he wore "The Destroyer Armor"!!!:DThats not ringing a bell - did that have anything to do with the Malkith (Dark Elf) storyline? Serious Stuff: Anyhow, msatran's complaints about the LGS's is valid, and for a very good example of that, take a look at the mistakes Games Workshop has made in the last few years. It started putting up its own stores, just to put the little guys out of business (which it did, in many areas). Problem is, their stores only carried THEIR products, so folks had to go elsewhere to buy other comapny's miniatures and games. Then they started jacking up their prices, while at the same time giving their customers less and less for it... sound familiar? People left the hobby in droves, or went over to other companies, either by finding some of the few remaining independent stores, or by ordering online. In the end, they bit themselves in the @ss, and their stores started closing. For a short while their sales were boosted (mostly through the LotR line), but for the past three years their profits have been tanking BIG-TIME! Now a good number of their stores are gone, and so are all the LGS's they put out of business, and the next generation (the very group GW and WotC is trying to target) don't have a nifty store in their neighborhood where they can walk in and see the games being played. VERY counter-productive, IMHO. Sometimes a little competition is good for the hobby (Bill Gates was smart enough to realize this when he GAVE Apple 50 million!) - big companies only see those stores selling their competitor's products, but the fact is, those stores are responsible for getting many people interested in the games in the first place. When the last LGS closes shop, it WILL spell doom for our hobby, mark my words. :( |
| Rauric01-07-08, 10:04 AM | I get tired of the whiny posts but let's try to keep things a bit civil please. If MS has 60 PCs or players he may have a tough time I guess. I think he is the extreme excpetion though. I do not believe that the majority of gamers have that many games or players going on at once. So even though it may cause you some aggravation, 4E probably will not cause that many problems for other gamers. I have noticed many hard core gamer friends getting older and becoming more casual, like myself. Relationships, kids and work becomes a priority and the game gets put on the back burner. It is tough to find one game let alone 3 or 4. Even if you can find more games finding the time is a pain. Anyway I do think it will be possible to fit 4e into your current campaign. I am not sure how yet because I don't have the hard rules in front of me yet, but I am sure it can be done. I am going to have a real little problem since I am running an Eberron game with Gestalt PCs in it that have an imp and minotaur!!! I should be the one :censored: and :banghead: ! I do have some ideas how to convert things even though the EB sourcebook will not be out for a year after the FR one. The crux of my campaign is that these misfit adventurers have souls of other adventuers placed inside of them and they were all "created" for some mysterious purpose. The souls in each PC is the main thing though. If I keep that intact the game can continue. I hope. ;) Starblazers was great. I was young but I remember seeing people bite it and going "Omg, those guys just died!" That was big in the cartoon world. |
| Kenzuki01-07-08, 10:12 AM | They are making a Thundercats movie guys. They have not decieded whether it will be a live action with CGI or a CGI movie ala TMNT yet. They are also making a Master of the Universe aka HE-MAN movie trilogy that will be more faithful to the original show. Also a Voltron and Street Fighter movie! |
| MarkusTay6301-07-08, 10:42 AM | And now I know why I barely go to the movies anymore... :yuck: Rarely does a movie based on a cartoon or comic book please me. However, a Thundercats movie does sound interesting... ;) |
| Kenzuki01-07-08, 10:49 AM | Here is a preview of the Thundercats movie. Warning, contains adult language some might find offensive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftU5GfORvH8 |
| MarkusTay6301-07-08, 10:55 AM | Now THAT I could sit through for two hours. :D First realistic dialogue I've heard in a movie script in quite sometime. :P You have seen the X-men one with the Juggernaught (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DftU5GfORvH8), right? * "Im the Juggernaught, bi......" :dancin: * Strong Language and adult situations, please do not veiw if you are under 18 or easily offended. ;) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-07-08, 10:56 AM | -It reminded me of a "Gundam Wing".:rolleyes: Yeah, me too.:) And countless other "spacey" cartoons. |
| MarkusTay6301-07-08, 11:03 AM | I even heard that in the next edition, Dwarves will be able to 'meld' their Gundam Armors together and form large robotic fighters... Go, go Dwarven Rangers..." :P |
| 18DELTA01-07-08, 11:50 AM | Starblazers... now that's a name I haven't heard in a long, long, long time... don't even remember it beyond a few hazy images. -One of the best cartoon series EVAR! :D |
| msatran01-07-08, 11:52 AM | Desslok of Gamilon is still my all time favorite antagonist. How cool is it to execute a man for laughing at his own jokes? |
| Lord Karsus01-07-08, 11:56 AM | -Ha! So you like "Gundam wing" too? -No, I hate Gundam Wing. It is a travesty to the series. I like Mobile Suit Gundam, and sequels to it, up to the year 0083. Releasing the Monster Manual in July doesn't benefit their quarterly plan. -They are releasing another Monster Manual? I only read two of them, so I have no idea, unless you're talking about the Golem with the trapped spirit of a Dwarf (?) inside -Yes, that's akin to a Lich fused into armor. |
| 18DELTA01-07-08, 12:08 PM | Thats not ringing a bell - did that have anything to do with the Malkith (Dark Elf) storyline? -Nope, remember when Hela or was it Loki cursed Thor to never die, yet never heal from his injuries? Thor has the Asgardian Armor built to protect him. Then he proceeds to kill the Midgard Serpent. Awesome issue all splash pages btw. Well, Thor is basically jelly after his throw down with the Midgard Serpent. So Loki brings the Destroyer Armor to attack Thor's jellified body. Thor proceeds to possess the Destroyer armor, THEN HE ATTACKS THE DOMAIN OF HELA. PROCEEDS TO LAY WASTE TO HELA'S DOMAIN, SO SHE WILL RELEASE HIM FROM THE CURSE. :eek: :cool: :D It is one of my favorite Thor story lines. Remeber now? |
| 18DELTA01-07-08, 12:10 PM | Now THAT I could sit through for two hours. :D First realistic dialogue I've heard in a movie script in quite sometime. :P You have seen the X-men one with the Juggernaught (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DftU5GfORvH8), right? * "Im the Juggernaught, bi......" :dancin: * Strong Language and adult situations, please do not veiw if you are under 18 or easily offended. ;) -Bow chicka wow wow!:D |
| 18DELTA01-07-08, 12:12 PM | Yeah, me too.:) And countless other "spacey" cartoons. -Arent the great?:D |
| 18DELTA01-07-08, 12:13 PM | I even heard that in the next edition, Dwarves will be able to 'meld' their Gundam Armors together and form large robotic fighters... Go, go Dwarven Rangers..." :P -Dwarftron Defenders of the Mountain side!!! :rolleyes: ;) :P :D |
| 18DELTA01-07-08, 12:15 PM | Desslok of Gamilon is still my all time favorite antagonist. How cool is it to execute a man for laughing at his own jokes? -:dancin: Desslok, Desslok, Desslok, Desslok, Desslok, Desslok, Desslok, Desslok, Desslok, Desslok, Desslok, Desslok, Desslok, Desslok:dancin: :D |
| 18DELTA01-07-08, 12:17 PM | -No, I hate Gundam Wing. It is a travesty to the series. I like Mobile Suit Gundam, and sequels to it, up to the year 0083. -So how many Gundam Cartoons are their? |
| Lord Karsus01-07-08, 12:21 PM | -So how many Gundam Cartoons are their? -Multiple. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundam#The_Gundam_franchise -On a side not, Delta, try not to post back-to-back-to-back so much. Lump as much as you can into one post. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-07-08, 01:57 PM | -Arent the great?:D Yeah.:) I still didn't like that armor pic, though. |
| 18DELTA01-07-08, 02:29 PM | -Multiple. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundam#The_Gundam_franchise -On a side not, Delta, try not to post back-to-back-to-back so much. Lump as much as you can into one post. -Oopsy, I sorta got carried away. :tiphat: -Yeah that dwarf does look kinda silly huh?;) |
| MarkusTay6301-07-08, 03:07 PM | Gundam Dwarf: "I'd chase you down this narrow passage and slay you, if my shoulder-wings would allow!" -Nope, remember when Hela or was it Loki cursed Thor to never die, yet never heal from his injuries...<snip>?Sorta rings a bell - I think I might have only purchased the last part of that - not a big Thor fan - but I do like stories with Loki in them. :D -They are releasing another Monster Manual?Ummmm... they sort of have to... you have heard about 4e, right? :confused: --Yes, that's akin to a Lich fused into armor.If a human archmage turned Lich stuck inside a suit of god-armor is the same as the spirit of a Dwarf being placed inside the body of a Golem in order to save her life... the yeah... I guess... :rolleyes: But I was thinking more of Deathlok, once the concept became more fleshed-out. You know... he was a great soldier that was brought back to life with cybernetic enhancements, all done against his will so he hates what he has become, and winds up destroying most everything around him (his full name WAS Deathlok the Demolisher). ;) The concept is the same, just using a great wizard and magic instead of a soldier and tech. Also, I like when they do close-ups of Dr. Doom, and you can see his blasted flesh through the eye-slits... I like that for the Manshoon mask, seeing the tattered bits of flesh around his eyes. Oh... and lets not forget the 'Shredder Armor' - It's a must! |
| Lord Karsus01-07-08, 03:10 PM | Ummmm... they sort of have to... you have heard about 4e, right? :confused: -4e? Really? No, I hadn't heard. -No, I was talking about for 3e, which is why I was surprised. If a human archmage turned Lich stuck inside a suit of god-armor is the same as the spirit of a Dwarf being placed inside the body of a Golem in order to save her life... the yeah... I guess... :rolleyes: -Close enough in my book. |
| MarkusTay6301-07-08, 03:21 PM | You have a very open book, then. ;) :P The 'anguished, trapped soul' concept is as old as the hills anyway, but it could still seem fresh with the right spin. -No, I was talking about for 3e, which is why I was surprised.I had to go back and re-read msatran's post - it was cleverly disguised behind a bunch of pinko, commie cr@p. :eek: Just kidding... I'm pretty sure he was referring to 4e, or perhaps just the release-schedule in general, given that he was using it as an economic example. There's no way they are releasing ANYMORE 3e products with 4e so close. That, of course, leaves much more room for fan-generated material. :dancin: |
| 18DELTA01-07-08, 03:29 PM | -So basically Manshoon is an aspect of DR. DOOM in the Realms? With all the retcons going around, one can never be to sure with WotC. Now if Hasbro bought Marvel Comics, that would become a reality!!!;) :P :D |
| MarkusTay6301-07-08, 03:40 PM | I'm a HUGE fan of Michael Moorcock's novels, and in them he postulates that every world has certain 'archtypes', who are slightly different from world to world, but all 'cut from the same cloth', as it were. So within that Cosmic model, then yes, both Dr. Doom and Manshoon (and even Shredder) could all be seperate aspects of the evil Man in the Iron Mask. Oh... and Thor... :P BTW, you know that Victor Von Doom is scarred because of MAGICAL experimentation, right? He was a Wizard, before he was a King. |
| 18DELTA01-07-08, 03:46 PM | I'm a HUGE fan of Michael Moorcock's novels, and in them he postulates that every world has certain 'archtypes', who are slightly different from world to world, but all 'cut from the same cloth', as it were. So within that Cosmic model, then yes, both Dr. Doom and Manshoon (and even Shredder) could all be seperate aspects of the evil Man in the Iron Mask. Oh... and Thor... :P BTW, you know that Victor Von Doom is scarred because of MAGICAL experimentation, right? He was a Wizard, before he was a King. -So should we call them DR. MANDOOM? :D -If only their was a third one to challenge Lord Karsus.:plotting: :fett: :thinks: :smirk: :coolcthul -P.S. Posting that you are a hugh fan of Moorcock, just doesn't look right! ;) :P :D -Thor thats right knave!!!:) |
| MarkusTay6301-07-08, 03:51 PM | Shredder Von Manshoon, father of Arilyn Manshoon, high-priestes of the Enlightened Despot Heresy. :dancin: I think I'm gonna have a lot of fun between now and Aug., coming up with my own set of 'Ultimate' FR characters. :D |
| 18DELTA01-07-08, 03:52 PM | Shredder Von Manshoon, father of Arilyn Manshoon, high-priestes of the Enlightened Despot Heresy. :dancin: I think I'm gonna have a lot of fun between now and Aug., coming up with my own set of 'Ultimate' FR characters. :D -I about fell out of my chair on this one!!!:teach: :rofl: :bow: :dancin: |
| Lord Karsus01-07-08, 04:02 PM | There's no way they are releasing ANYMORE 3e products with 4e so close. -Oh well. You'd think, with so much time between now and then, they'd release something, and cash in on 3e one more time. That's what I do, anyway. |
| MarkusTay6301-07-08, 04:09 PM | But would anybody buy it, knowing a new rules system is in the works? And even if it did well (which it might, but I personally didn't see the appeal with the last couple), wouldn't that be sending everyone the wrong message? Basically, they are trying to convince us that 3e sucked, and that we'd be crazy/stupid to stick with it. :rolleyes: They have no intention on providing support for the 'un-cool' people who are left behind... Thats why it has become our holy duty to carry the torch. :dancin: |
| Lord Karsus01-07-08, 04:15 PM | But would anybody buy it, knowing a new rules system is in te works? And even if it did well (which it might, but I personally didn't se the appeal with the last couple), wouldn't that be sending everyone the wrong message? -Depends on what it was. To be Forgotten Realms specific, if they published, during this time, a Player's Guide to the Other Realms, which is a change for the better for all of the extra-Faerûnian continents, a la Kara-Tur De-Dux, that righted all wrongs surrounding these continents, wouldn't you buy it? I know I would. -How would that be sending the wrong message, though? Personally, I'd see that as a "you've all been loyal customers. Here's one last treat, care of 3rd Edition for everyone". Basically, they are trying to convince us that 3e sucked, and that we'd be crazy/stupid to stick with it. :rolleyes: -I know. Terrible strategy. |
| MerrikCale01-07-08, 08:18 PM | -Depends on what it was. To be Forgotten Realms specific, if they published, during this time, a Player's Guide to the Other Realms, which is a change for the better for all of the extra-Faerûnian continents, a la Kara-Tur De-Dux, that righted all wrongs surrounding these continents, wouldn't you buy it? I know I would. sign me up |
| Mr_Miscellany01-07-08, 08:27 PM | Keep in mind that flaming and baiting are violations of the Code of Conduct (http://www.wizards.com/coc). Read it, love it, live it.As I understand it, so is spam. If you take a look around you, you'll see this thread is swimming in it. A little help, here? :rolleyes: |
| Lord Karsus01-07-08, 08:34 PM | sign me up -Well, it's already been stated that there aren't going to be any more sourcebooks until 4e. It's a long wait, too. The summer is a long way off. |
| XHereticX01-07-08, 08:38 PM | Never got into Gundam, I thought it was just a bunch of giant dumb robot knocking the crap out of each other. No drama or human interaction like in most animes I like. This Ultimate FR thing sounds fun, let me participate. |
| MarkusTay6301-07-08, 10:40 PM | Were you born angry, Misc.? Or did someone scar you as a child? :confused: Although a lot of this is Off-Topic, we have been discussing pertinent 3e-4e issues, which this topic naturally leads into. Some times you need to wade through some garbage, but there is still relevant information being exchanged here. |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-08-08, 12:25 AM | I'm a HUGE fan of Michael Moorcock's novels, and in them he postulates that every world has certain 'archtypes', who are slightly different from world to world, but all 'cut from the same cloth', as it were. So within that Cosmic model, then yes, both Dr. Doom and Manshoon (and even Shredder) could all be seperate aspects of the evil Man in the Iron Mask. Oh... and Thor... :P BTW, you know that Victor Von Doom is scarred because of MAGICAL experimentation, right? He was a Wizard, before he was a King. This is my view on Dr. Doom(my PCs know nothing abou Marvel Comics and this is how i broke it down to them) Iron-man is a Artificer lv 20 and Dr.Strange is a lv20 Wizard, Dr.Doom is a lv 15 Artificer/15 Wizard.... |
| Caemun01-08-08, 12:48 AM | I'm a HUGE fan of Michael Moorcock That is so wrong, and it's even more wrong of me to point it out, but I just couldn't help it. Anywho, back on topic. I don't think I'll be getting this. I'm already sick of 4 ed and this just seems like a waste of good money. |
| Reneshat01-08-08, 12:59 AM | The problem people have with Marx is that SOME of his ideas are wrong. But using Marx to support a particular point does not make you a Marxist, any more than being a corporate executive means that you believe every word Adam Smith ever wrote. And here I thought that you were about to say the workers will rise up and overthrow the bourgeois. :P It wasn't that I thought you were a Marxist, or even referring to some of his idiotic ideas, it's simply that the mere mention of his name filled me with repressed vitriol, and I felt compelled to spill it out upon this board. :D |
| 18DELTA01-08-08, 01:05 AM | This is my view on Dr. Doom(my PCs know nothing abou Marvel Comics and this is how i broke it down to them) Iron-man is a Artificer lv 20 and Dr.Strange is a lv20 Wizard, Dr.Doom is a lv 15 Artificer/15 Wizard.... :) |
| Dzwood01-08-08, 10:07 AM | Ok first off I am sorry that this will be a long post!!!! I am responding to a bunch of stuff in the thread and I guess it will be simpler to do it all at once. Second I have a hard time putting thoughts down in written form not to mention spelling so plz forgive me. It comes from to many years on Ritalin AND six different concussions!!!! LOL True and funny. Anywhoooooo!! I think this book was made for people like me. I have maybe 25 to 30 hours of actual table time to my credit as opposed to the Kagillionz of hours some of you guys have. I think it is great. I have been waiting to get more into D&D because of 4e and I thin this will help me pave the way. That being said I have been a huge fan of The Realms since sixth grade when I got Darkwalker on Moonshae <sp?> for x-mas and fell in love!!!! And I dunno how some of the things I am seeing will affect the realms I love. But I like the look ahead feel and it will keep me satisfied for a lil while. I loved the art AND the DVD extra feel. So I kinda get the Halflings as a river marsh people. Has any one ever heard of that Amazon tribe that made entire towns out or reeds that floated on the water? I think a small people that live on the river kind of makes sense. It also reminds me of Tolkien’s Golum <sp?>. He came from a bunch of river loving Hobbits or Hobbit like people. So while I find it a stretch but I kind of like it. Of if I do not like it I see where they got the idea. Here is what I think they need to do with Gnomes!!!! Put them in cities and libraries!!! They have always seemed kind of urban to me anyway. Gnomes would be administrators and librarians and other city/educated professions. I seem them as lore seekers and urban rangers. Or even if u like the Tinkerer Gnome thing they can be city planers and engineers. Civilized fun loving and open-minded and industrious. That says it all for me…just my take. I just wonder how they are going to get the Dragonborn into the realms?!?!?! I mean the rain of Fire and a resurgence of Beumat’s <I am pretty sure I jacked that spelling up but all my books are at home> faith might explain that. I do think they could be kind of cool though. I do however agree with the posters that I cheapens real Dragons for me. I think I might play them in the Realms as a quasi-separate race of half dragons. Descended from all of the other dragon/elf, dragon/human ect combos. Ohh and if they try and retcon an entire Tiefling empire into the Realms I might go mad. I am trying to get behind every thing in 4e but that would just be crazy. I know that Tiefling empire was intended for Core but in FR it would just be stupid to pretend we had never heard for it before. As for the LGS thing the one in my town has had to make some radical changes to keep in business…but in this case I thin it is for the best. They now buy/sell trade used books of all kinds and the same for vid games. One of the prvt gaming rooms in the back was converted to a Xbox-a-torium where people can play Halo and Guitar Hero and stuff…and that is just plain awesome!!! And forever ago they put in a coffee shop in the corner and you have to love that. I love the LGS. But I think they are going to have to change to survive. We AND WotC need to do our best to support them if this wonderful hobby is to survive. As for the price of these new source books and paying for R&C…… it is up to WotC to make $$$$ so it can afford to keep giving us gaming products and novels. I think R&C was a tad over priced but not much. R&C was worth it for me because I found it fun…nuff said. I thing WotC was right to charge for it. But is I am gonna pay $40 for my new PH it better be HELLA FREAKING GOOD. But $40 is less than I spent on most of my TV shows on DVD and I will get mour hours of use out of the PH than most of my DVD collection combined. Every thing is going up in price that includes gaming supplies and we all need to get used to that. My groups of gamers plans on sticking with 3.5 for a while till every one can afford to catch up. That being said not every one need the Dungeon Masters Guide and we already share 4 Mms with 9 people so that is proof that not every one needs to have every book. And if cost is really an issue stick to 3e for a year it wont be long till some of the source books start showing up as used. that’s what I plan on doing with most of them…after I get the core that is. All in all nothing in the book made me mad. I do have some questions how much of this will fit into FR but I am excited to see how they will manage it. The VOLRON Dwarf was a bit much. I like how everything got a dash of sex appeal. This is fantasy and everything should be a lil sexy. The Halflings HOT!!! The dwarf woman finally sexy….and the Elf ranger on p.85.… unnaturally sexy. My only grips is that I get the feeling that Sorcerers might not make it into the PHB and they are my favorite just add a lvl of fighter and bam!!!!! I can take on anything. PS waaay at the begining of this thread some one had concerns about teloports!!! Only the long range and non combat telaport magic has been moved to rituals. The rest should be staying where they are..see page 80 lower left corner -Dizzy |
| Rauric01-08-08, 10:41 AM | I am curious about teleports because I am not a big fan of them. I like it when players travel through areas. Even if I don't throw a single encounter at them along the way, I just would rather them to trek places than use one spell and ***POOF***. This is just a minor pet peeve of mine. How is teleport magic different exactly? |
| Dzwood01-08-08, 10:44 AM | I think the long range aka non-combative telaports have become rituals and the short range combat telaports remain spells. This should free up some spell slots and might move some of the mass tealaports and longrange ports to later leavls would be my guess |
| Alediran01-08-08, 10:46 AM | I am curious about teleports because I am not a big fan of them. I like it when players travel through areas. Even if I don't throw a single encounter at them along the way, I just would rather them to trek places than use one spell and ***POOF***. This is just a minor pet peeve of mine. How is teleport magic different exactly? The only change announced to Teleport is that was converted into a Ritual. It makes it useless in combat situations, where it's use is to save character's butts, but it would have the same effect for long distance travel. |
| Rauric01-08-08, 11:16 AM | The only change announced to Teleport is that was converted into a Ritual. It makes it useless in combat situations, where it's use is to save character's butts, but it would have the same effect for long distance travel. Meh. I wonder how it will work for planar beings who had port at will abilities? |
| Dzwood01-08-08, 11:18 AM | I will prolly let them earn points on every port and then turn them in for a free port but only on specified days.....ohh wait thats my frequent flyer miles...hmmmm |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-08-08, 12:40 PM | Rauric, why not ask Rich your question? |
| Lord Karsus01-08-08, 01:06 PM | -If Teleport is a ritual, I am assuming it takes time. I guess that means that the safety net of being able to teleport away in the middle of battle, when things are not going your way, is gone. |
| Dzwood01-08-08, 01:19 PM | I thought I saw someone talking in one of the other threads about being able to set them up beforehand and trigger them later. I look for it when i have time.........Did anyone see my comment about 4e Gnomes a ways back...Gnomes and the city?? Id bet money that is where they will stick em. |
| MerrikCale01-08-08, 08:39 PM | -If Teleport is a ritual, I am assuming it takes time. I guess that means that the safety net of being able to teleport away in the middle of battle, when things are not going your way, is gone. OK. But what if you have an teleportation magic item? |
| Lord Karsus01-08-08, 09:00 PM | OK. But what if you have an teleportation magic item? -Can you store magical rituals in items? That's the question. |
| MarkusTay6301-08-08, 11:19 PM | Hmmmm, good point. Maybe regular Magic Items store 'per encounter' spells, whilst artifacts will store rituals and 'per day' spells. the other thing are the new magic foci - if you are able to bind certain spells into your focusing device, perhaps you can keep a ritual or two on hand. I thought I saw someone talking in one of the other threads about being able to set them up beforehand and trigger them later. I look for it when i have time.........Did anyone see my comment about 4e Gnomes a ways back...Gnomes and the city?? Id bet money that is where they will stick em.'Urban' isn't really a terrian type. I'd rather see 'Frost Gnomes', living on Mountain Tops and the frigid north (and south). If they continue down this path of assigning major PC races to terrains, then they will need someone for ther cold areas. Besides, it would explain those goggles they are always pictured wearing. :P |
| Lord Karsus01-08-08, 11:22 PM | Hmmmm, good point. Maybe regular Magic Items store 'per encounter' spells, whilst artifacts will store rituals and 'per day' spells. the other thing are the new magic foci - if you are able to bind certain spells into your focusing device, perhaps you can keep a ritual or two on hand. -In my mind, the weakens the 'power' of artifacts and relics greatly. See, this is why I don't like the 'per encounter' thing. It might make battles more 'streamlined', and appease the people wh play Wizards who get upset when they run out of spells, but it complicates the book keeping. |
| Dzwood01-09-08, 09:17 AM | Hmmmm, good point. Maybe regular Magic Items store 'per encounter' spells, whilst artifacts will store rituals and 'per day' spells. the other thing are the new magic foci - if you are able to bind certain spells into your focusing device, perhaps you can keep a ritual or two on hand. 'Urban' isn't really a terrian type. I'd rather see 'Frost Gnomes', living on Mountain Tops and the frigid north (and south). If they continue down this path of assigning major PC races to terrains, then they will need someone for ther cold areas. Besides, it would explain those googles they are always pictured wearing. :P Well I think they can do beter for the cold areas than Gnomes....like something with fur!!! Just makes sence really. But i never got the feeling that they ment terrian in the same way we use it in geography. I am not even sure that is the word they used in R&C. I got the feeling it ment area you are most likely to find these folks...so if i am not mistaken on that count then Urban would be a fitting home region for one race or another. Gnomes seem to fit that bill rather well being so industrious and all...IDK just my thought |
| 18DELTA01-09-08, 11:34 AM | Besides, it would explain those googles they are always pictured wearing. :P -Those are their Beer Goggles....wait a minute did you spell it googles? Googles, huh. hmmm.....beer googles, I like that alot.:P Lord DELTA:fight!: |
| Reneshat01-10-08, 12:36 AM | -Those are their Beer Goggles....wait a minute did you spell it googles? Googles, huh. hmmm.....beer googles, I like that alot.:P Okay then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer http://beeradvocate.com/ http://www.realbeer.com/ http://www.ratebeer.com/ http://beerme.com/index.php Happy now? |
| MarkusTay6301-10-08, 12:56 PM | Okay, thanks to another helpful poster, I was directed to this informative thread (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=215979&page=1&pp=30) over at Enworld, which contains info about the new preview book, Worlds & Monsters. Rather then start another preview thread, I figure we'd just continue with this one. Perhaps the OP would be kind enough to change the thread title name to something along the lines of 4e Preview books discussion or some such. -Thanks ;) Anyhow, going by the info in that thread, it appears that the Negative Plane has been folded into the Shadowfell. Although this is definately a deviation from canon, it does make some sense. Now 'all things dark' eminate from a common source, and it is the plane responsible for things like Undead. the thing I find MOST interesting is that the inhabitants of the Shadowfell are the Shadar-Kai, who are basically the 3e version of the 2e Shadow Elves from the Ravenloft supplement The Shadow Rift. This is great, because that supplement was excellent, and its nice to see them building upon it in 4e. Also, there are a few hints that WotC is going to be developing RL material again (taking back their license and planned novels), so it appears that we may see The Realm of Mists inside of the Shadowfell! Maybe not the same one we knew, but some 4e iteration of it. That means the Shadowfell will be really combining three planes, not just two. The last part about RL is conjecture on my part, but the clues are there. :detect: Anyhow, after thinking on this startling conclusion further, it would make sense if the same were to happen to their opposites - so that now the Feywild will encompass Faerie and the positive plane. This too makes sense, because fairys are supposed to be 'nature elementals', or rather, beings representing the very enrgy of 'life'. So now, in the future 4e Realms, we have at least three 'other realms' encroaching on Toril's prime material one - The Shadowfel (RL/Negative plane), The Feywild (Faerie/PositvePlane), and The Far Realms (Aberations and psuedo-natural creatures). Add to that that all three will be available as 'power sources' for 4e casters, and I think this 'new setting' might just be pretty darn interesting. True, it doesn't sound much like the Realms we know, but it does sound like a good setting on its own. So now we have 'New Realms', and 'Realms Classic' to choose from. I might just make the leap to 4e FR after all, unless the time-jump is too big. Thats pretty much the deciding factor for me at this point. If its a century or more, then I'll just use the new material in the old world. |
| 18DELTA01-10-08, 01:06 PM | -Your welcome. And dont forget about your Ultimate Forgotten Realms MarkusTay63.:D So now we have 'New Realms', and 'Realms Classic' to choose from. I might just make the leap to 4e FR after all, unless the time-jump is too big. Thats pretty much the deciding factor for me at this point. If its a century or more, then I'll just use the new material in the old world. LORD DELTA:fight!: |
| Rauric01-10-08, 03:03 PM | Rauric, why not ask Rich your question? Good idea.;) |
| Dzwood01-10-08, 04:09 PM | I am willing to bet a large sum of $$$$ that this will be explained by destruction of Mystra's realm and the Planes re-ordering themselves. Not a bad idea I guess..but it seems like alot of changes all at once |
| Lord Karsus01-10-08, 06:45 PM | So now, in the future 4e Realms, we have at least three 'other realms' encroaching on Toril's prime material one - The Shadowfel (RL/Negative plane), The Feywild (Faerie/PositvePlane), and The Far Realms (Aberations and psuedo-natural creatures). Add to that that all three will be available as 'power sources' for 4e casters, and I think this 'new setting' might just be pretty darn interesting. -The Plane of Faerie and the Positive Energy Plane are one and the same now? So now we have 'New Realms', and 'Realms Classic' to choose from. I might just make the leap to 4e FR after all, unless the time-jump is too big. Thats pretty much the deciding factor for me at this point. If its a century or more, then I'll just use the new material in the old world. -What happened when Coca-Cola changed the formula to 'New Coke'?... :: cough couth :: I am willing to bet a large sum of $$$$ that this will be explained by destruction of Mystra's realm and the Planes re-ordering themselves. Not a bad idea I guess..but it seems like alot of changes all at once -Actually, the Empyrian Odyssey trilogy will be most likely explaining all of these changes. Note, it does involve Cyric, thus far, though. |
| Dzwood01-10-08, 07:04 PM | -Actually, the Empyrian Odyssey trilogy will be most likely explaining all of these changes. Note, it does involve Cyric, thus far, though. Ohhhhh umm who do i make the check out too??? And do u mind not cashing it till Mirt gets back to me about that Lone. Also instead of cash do u accept humanoid sacrafices or Holy Maidens.......They ARE half-orc Maidens but still......;) |
| Lord Karsus01-10-08, 07:11 PM | Ohhhhh umm who do i make the check out too??? And do u mind not cashing it till Mirt gets back to me about that Lone. -Fill it out to: Lord Karsus PO Box 1986 Karsus' Enclave, Netheril Also instead of cash do u accept humanoid sacrafices or Holy Maidens.......They ARE half-orc Maidens but still......;) -I accept the first, but I don't accept Orcish "maidens". Sorry. |
| MarkusTay6301-10-08, 09:33 PM | -The Plane of Faerie and the Positive Energy Plane are one and the same now? I don't know - that was conjecture on my part, based on the fact that the Negative Plane no longer exists and has been folded in the Shadowfell. The Positive Plane must also be gone, because it wouldn't make any sense for it to exist without its opposite, and the most likey Plane to have "killed it and taken its stuff" (;) ) would be the new Feywild - the Shadowfell's Planar opposite. so we have our 'Light' and 'Darkness' Planes - the touch of one kills plants and makes things wither, and the touch of the other causes new growth and returns things to life. Kinda makes sense, flavor-wise. |
| Lord Karsus01-10-08, 11:22 PM | -So, the Negative Energy Plane just randomly disappeared? Riiiigggghhhhtt....So, what are Undead infused with? Shadowstuff? But, Shadowstuff (Shades) and Negative Energy (Undead) are obviously very different things...Again, I say Oy Vey... |
| MarkusTay6301-11-08, 12:36 AM | You see, the scholars had been wrong all these years, thinking the Plane of Shadow and the Negative Energy Plane were two different Realms - in reality they were just different parts of the Shadowfell. Scholars can make mistakes, can't they? ;) And I guess it depends on how much of this 'Umbral' energy (borrowing the Eberron term for it) is added to something, how much of a thing of Shadow it becomes. Or, it could simply work like this - if you add Umbral energy to something alive, it becomes some form of shadow creature, but if you add it to something thats dead, then it becomes Undead. Got NO clue how they'll handle vampires, then, because vampires are 'afflicted' whilst alive, and then become dead. From what I read at Enworld, all the rules regarding Undead are going to change anyway, and they will become combinations of three different things - the body, the mind, and the 'animus' (that part that makes something alive). I guess the Animus is the D&D equivalent of a soul, and without that you still have the other two, which would be a vampire. A creature with all three would be alive, but any combination of the other two will fit neatly into the established undead categories. Thats the best I can figure the little I've heard - hopefully when I get a chance to read this at Borders I'll find out more. Oh... and Brass and Bronze Dragons also simply disappeared. :eek: |
| Lord Karsus01-11-08, 01:03 AM | :: Sputters while trying to formulate any kind of response :: |
| Dzwood01-11-08, 01:11 AM | LOL D&D is getting rid of Dragons?!?!?!?!?! Ummmmm do I smell something rotten?!?!?!?! Or just kind of stupid. |
| Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus01-11-08, 01:33 AM | :) Is all good If my "battle" aproves |
| GreenKnight01-11-08, 01:54 AM | Oh... and Brass and Bronze Dragons also simply disappeared. They're not getting rid of them. Apparently, Worlds and Monsters says that they'll appear later on. Just not right away. LOL D&D is getting rid of Dragons?!?!?!?!?! Ummmmm do I smell something rotten?!?!?!?! Or just kind of stupid. ... yes, they're getting rid of dragons. Dungeons, too. |
| Lord Karsus01-11-08, 01:57 AM | ... yes, they're getting rid of dragons. Dungeons, too. -Damn...Now what's the game called? '&'? |
| 18DELTA01-11-08, 02:00 AM | ... yes, they're getting rid of dragons. Dungeons, too. -WTF!!!:noway: :yuck: :raincloud :surrender :allalone: :ahem: :blush: :uh-huh: :rant: :nonono: :bigeyes: :censored: :tantrum: :headexplo :banghead: :hoppingma -Damn...Now what's the game called? '&'? -It's the game formerly known as '&'. Now if only I had the old Prince symbol. LORD DELTA:fight!: |
| GreenKnight01-11-08, 02:02 AM | -Damn...Now what's the game called? '&'? AMPERSAND: The Game of Fantasy Roleplaying |
| Lord Karsus01-11-08, 02:04 AM | AMPERSAND: The Game of Fantasy Roleplaying -Heh, nice. :) |
| Dzwood01-11-08, 09:12 AM | They're not getting rid of them. Apparently, Worlds and Monsters says that they'll appear later on. Just not right away. ... yes, they're getting rid of dragons. Dungeons, too. Thats great now we can just hang out in taverns all day and not bother with monsters and quests and stuff!!!!! :P :tie: |
| MarkusTay6301-11-08, 12:46 PM | I had a player do just that... He was new to the game, and didn't understand the concept. He kept asking me "how do we WIN?", so I finally got fed up and said "You stay alive!". When the rest of the party 'went out to look for adventure', he decided he would "stay in the tavern, and look for a job in town come morning". :bored: He didn't play the next time we met - he thought it boring... :uh-huh: |
| 18DELTA01-11-08, 12:57 PM | Thats great now we can just hang out in taverns all day and not bother with monsters and quests and stuff!!!!! :P :tie: -Only if we get to flirt with the Barmaids.:D No MarkusTay63, not the BIG & FAT ones either.:P -But, don't get me wrong BIG GIRLS need lovin too you know. Warmth in the Winter, Shades in the Summer.:) LORD DELTA |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-11-08, 01:00 PM | Oh... and Brass and Bronze Dragons also simply disappeared. :eek: Actually, I read that they aren't gone for good, they just will be detailed later. In their place we get Iron and Adamantine Dragons. |
| MarkusTay6301-11-08, 01:06 PM | Yup, in the Alloy Dragons Compendium, do out spring of 2010. :P Personally, I don't care what they do with them - they were never portrayed in novels anywhere near as powerful as they should be according to the rules, and I never had a need to send such an all-powerful foe against my poor, unsuspecting PCs. Logically, Brass and Bronze should have been mixes of other dragons anyway, but unfortunately, dragons are like Elves in that regard - the sub-races DON'T mix, they are either one or the other. -Only if we get to flirt with the Barmaids.:D No MarkusTay63, not the BIG & FAT ones either.:P -But, don't get me wrong BIG GIRLS need lovin too you know. Warmth in the Winter, Shades in the Summer.:)Sorry, I only go for the ones with a little extra meat. :D I'm not into that anorexic, super-model look - give me a chunky monkey anyday! :dancin: |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-11-08, 01:09 PM | Regarding dragons, I think it's more notable that the concept of colors is changing around quite a bit. Just like in Eberron, color no longer dictates alignment--apparently, chromatic dragons are more "wild" whereas the metallics are, uh, less wild (more orderly?). |
| 18DELTA01-11-08, 01:16 PM | Yup, in the Alloy Dragons Compendium, do out spring of 2010. :P Personally, I don't care what they do with them - they were never portrayed in novels anywhere near as powerful as they should be according to the rules, and I never had a need to send such an all-powerful foe against my poor, unsuspecting PCs. Logically, Brass and Bronze should have been mixes of other dragons anyway, but unfortunately, dragons are like Elves in that regard - the sub-races DON'T mix, they are either one or the other. Sorry, I only go for the ones with a little extra meat. :D I'm not into that anorexic, super-model look - give me a chunky monkey anyday! :dancin: -Oh dont get me wrong, I like A FULL FIGURED WOMAN myself. Like a Boris Valio(sp) and Julie Bell kinda gal!!!:) :D :) :D :) :D ;) LORD DELTA:fight!: |
| MarkusTay6301-11-08, 01:35 PM | American Idol winner Jordin Sparks (http://www.jordinsparks.com/) is the perfect example of a truly beautiful young women. She proves that you don't need to be a 92 lb bag of skin to be attractive. Dragons: Yeah, I'm getting more of a Law and Chaos vibe from them now, rather then Good and Evil. So the metallics become the thinkers and schemers, and the chromatics become the 'brutes'. This may not be classic D&D, but it does fit with nearly every other fantasy setting out there - it has always struck me somewhat silly that a creature's personality was determined by its color, and we've had plenty of dragons in canon that break the stereotype, so it is really nothing new. In fact, one of Elminster's best friends is a Red Dragon who lives near the Sun... ;) |
| Alediran01-11-08, 01:56 PM | This is one of the many argentinian models: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1175/536471040_c6abd8ceda.jpg In argentina they preffer them with some well packed meat. |
| msatran01-11-08, 05:15 PM | I see she's also "Latex tested." |
| Dzwood01-11-08, 05:50 PM | While I have no problem with Dragons being more flexable in terms of alignment...It was kind ok nice to be able to say "ohhh Red dragon Bad" or "Hey guys a Sliver I wander if he wants to talk." I gues it is just another example of how PC D&D is geting. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-11-08, 06:24 PM | I'll be the first to admit that I don't mind some things in this game being simplistic and "black and white". But still, I can't say I'm bothered by the new concept of dragons in itself--it's perfectly legitimate even though I wouldn't use it in my Realms. |
| Dzwood01-11-08, 06:29 PM | Ahmen Lady Rino!!!! Its simpler of the hack and slash fighter types to have two lists "What to kill" and "What not to kill" lol. But seriously I do wonder at the motivation behind this particular change. |
| Lord Karsus01-11-08, 07:16 PM | like in Eberron, color no longer dictates alignment--apparently, chromatic dragons are more "wild" whereas the metallics are, uh, less wild (more orderly?). -Axiomatic. ;) <SNIP> -Homebre magazine, indeed... |
| msatran01-11-08, 08:04 PM | This edition is sounding more and more like I want no part of it whatsoever. |
| 18DELTA01-12-08, 12:39 AM | This is one of the many argentinian models: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1175/536471040_c6abd8ceda.jpg In argentina they preffer them with some well packed meat. -I am in :love: :inlove: :drool: :cloud9: :D LORD DELTA:mad: |
| MerrikCale01-12-08, 10:03 AM | This edition is sounding more and more like I want no part of it whatsoever. For me, the game itself I think is improving. The Forgotten Realms, however, are dead. |
| XHereticX01-12-08, 10:37 AM | For me, the game itself I think is improving. The Forgotten Realms, however, are dead. Agreed. I love most of the new changes, they just don't fit in with the Realms. I am glad they finally decided to do something with the Far Realm. |
| MarkusTay6301-12-08, 12:59 PM | I too will play with 4e rules, if they are nearly as good as they sound. As for the Realms... well... mine will always be the same... |
| XHereticX01-12-08, 01:05 PM | I too will play with 4e rules, if they are nearly as good as they sound. As for the Realms... well... mine will always be the same... Whatever, the USPS guy just dropped AGHoTR at my doorstep. I'm gonna go read it now:) |
| Lord Karsus01-12-08, 03:22 PM | Agreed. I love most of the new changes, they just don't fit in with the Realms. -I agree with the latter portion of your sentence, and a little with the first. Whatever, the USPS guy just dropped AGHoTR at my doorstep. I'm gonna go read it now:) -Have fun. |
| johnkretzer01-12-08, 04:02 PM | I too will play with 4e rules, if they are nearly as good as they sound. As for the Realms... well... mine will always be the same... I don't know...4th edition doesn't sound all that great. I mean the new skill system sounds very uninspired to me and the rest...well just seems very iffy. Of course all I I am hearing is how cool the rules are...I have yet to see it though. But with what they did to the Realms...I am thinking that the rules aren't going to be as great either. |
| Eli_the_Tanner01-13-08, 04:18 PM | For me, the game itself I think is improving. The Forgotten Realms, however, are dead. If the realms are dead(which I doubt) it's only because the new edition decided to kill it. The game is improving but the realms didn't need to. The realms is a continually improving, self-sustaining beast that builds upon it's own past. Drastically changing this continuity may have lethal consequences. Lets hope it adapts as it has before and emerges stronger.....roll on Living FR!! |
| Lord Karsus01-13-08, 04:41 PM | The realms is a continually improving, self-sustaining beast that builds upon it's own past. Drastically changing this continuity may have lethal consequences. -This is one of the main problems with the new Realms, as I see it. There is too much that doesn't logically seem to evolve from the setting as it was, and therefore, too much that seems to have just been added in for 4e, or the preparation of 4e- Case in point, the sudden appearance of Dragonborn eggs, and their prevalance in the 4e Realms, due to them being a 4e Core Race, or debacle between Sune, Tymora, Helm, Tyr, Mystra, Cyric, Shar, etc., to begin slimming the pantheon. |
| XHereticX01-13-08, 04:57 PM | -This is one of the main problems with the new Realms, as I see it. There is too much that doesn't logically seem to evolve from the setting as it was, and therefore, too much that seems to have just been added in for 4e, or the preparation of 4e- Case in point, the sudden appearance of Dragonborn eggs, and their prevalance in the 4e Realms, due to them being a 4e Core Race, or debacle between Sune, Tymora, Helm, Tyr, Mystra, Cyric, Shar, etc., to begin slimming the pantheon. I actually really woudn't mind the introduction of new factors in the Realms. In fact, I would welcome it with open arms, as long as they correctly work them into existing Realmslore and give enough background as to make them prevelent in the setting. The dragonborn are an interesting concept, and one that I am not completly opposed to. However, it will be interesting to see them try to live up to the legacy of Ancient Unther. |
| Lord Karsus01-13-08, 05:01 PM | I actually really woudn't mind the introduction of new factors in the Realms. In fact, I would welcome it with open arms, as long as they correctly work them into existing Realmslore and give enough background as to make them prevelent in the setting. -Nor am I against it, but as I said, I'd rather see it not done at all if it isn't going to be done in a believable way. I mentioned the Dragonborn because, even though information was injected into the setting, I feel that it was exactly that- injected, and not something that "evolved naturally". |
| XHereticX01-13-08, 05:10 PM | -Nor am I against it, but as I said, I'd rather see it not done at all if it isn't going to be done in a believable way. I mentioned the Dragonborn because, even though information was injected into the setting, I feel that it was exactly that- injected, and not something that "evolved naturally". Don't worry, I hear they are working them into some legend involving Tiamat and her "deformed" spawn or something of that nature. It will tie back to Untheric history in some way I think. |
| Lord Karsus01-13-08, 05:26 PM | -It still feels somewhat artificial to me. At the end of the day, they wouldn't be in the setting unless they weren't introduced as a race in 4e. |
| XHereticX01-13-08, 05:30 PM | -It still feels somewhat artificial to me. At the end of the day, they wouldn't be in the setting unless they weren't introduced as a race in 4e. I would still not needlessly denounce them before they even emerge however. Sure, the idea seems a bit cheesy and just gives more incentive to people who have an unreasonable fetish with dragons. Yet, if they develop the idea enough, it could prove fruitful. A revived Untheric Empire ruled by dragonmen who hate dragons could prove a interesting factor in the new Realms. In fact, I already have some ideas for them in my mind right at this moment. |
| Lord Karsus01-13-08, 05:46 PM | -I think you are misunderstanding what I mean. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the race, or that they are not interesting, or whatever. On a personal level, I feel that Dragonborn, no matter how much retconning and whatever is done, will always feel artificial in the Realms, because they were injected into the Realms specifically because they are a 4e Core Race, and as such, need to be included. A person who's first experience with the Realms is in 4e might not feel the same way, because, from their perspective, they've always had them. I feel the same way about...Warlocks, Goliaths, etc. They all feel very articifial, because they were all introduced into the setting due to the existence of those specific 3e books that they all appeared in. Now, I'm starting to ramble, but I hope you understand what I mean. |
| XHereticX01-13-08, 05:50 PM | Ahh Karsus, that is how the setting evolves. As long as they don't shake up the basic premisces of the setting, additional add-ons only serve to enrich it. It's just like a fiend and its grafts, at first they seem artificial and out of place, but if the fiend manipulates them right, they serve no harm and only good. Mulhorand, Unther, Kara-Tur, and many other factors may have seemed artificial in Ed's decisively Western Realms, yet they only resulted in a more diverse setting than before. I have nothing against the addition of new lore, its just the destruction and unusability of old lore that really angers me. |
| Lord Karsus01-13-08, 06:02 PM | It's just like a fiend and its grafts, at first they seem artificial and out of place, but if the fiend manipulates them right, they serve no harm and only good. -Like a fiend and it's grafts...:) Mulhorand, Unther, Kara-Tur, and many other factors may have seemed artificial in Ed's decisively Western Realms, yet they only resulted in a more diverse setting than before. -See, that's what I am saying. To me, I don't think these places are very artificial (alright, I do in some cases, but), because I was intoduced into D&D after they were introduced. Someone, like a member of Ed Greenwood's original campaign, might. |
| XHereticX01-13-08, 06:07 PM | -Like a fiend and it's grafts...:) -See, that's what I am saying. To me, I don't think these places are very artificial (alright, I do in some cases, but), because I was intoduced into D&D after they were introduced. Someone, like a member of Ed Greenwood's original campaign, might. So now that you acknowledge your problem, it is time to overcome it. Lest you risk becoming the archetype (which is a great hardcore band by the way:D ) |
| Lord Karsus01-13-08, 06:19 PM | -Archetype? Never heard of 'em. Don't like that kind of music. |
| XHereticX01-13-08, 06:23 PM | -Archetype? Never heard of 'em. Don't like that kind of music. Metal is what I'm all about.:D Just look at my list of favorite bands on Facebook. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-13-08, 07:58 PM | -It still feels somewhat artificial to me. At the end of the day, they wouldn't be in the setting unless they weren't introduced as a race in 4e. I agree, and that's coming from someone who likes the core 4E dragonborn. |
| GreenKnight01-13-08, 09:36 PM | That's true, but I don't mind their introduction, myself. After all, didn't the Untherites, Mulhorandis, and one subspecies of Orc get introduced in pretty much the same way in the same area? That part of Faerun has an annoying habit of yanking whole cultures from other worlds and dropping them right in there, so I don't mind their introduction, even if it was only because they're in 4E. Just be grateful it didn't reach into Earth, again. Who knows who else would've been pulled through. God help us if a section of Brooklyn were to get shunted into the Realms...:eek: I also like the fact that their culture isn't like the Core Dragonborn culture, either. From their utter hatred of dragons, as opposed to Core Dragonborn having forged an empire as willing servants to dragons, to still having a country in their homeworld, as opposed to the roving groups of Dragonborn in Core. |
| Eli_the_Tanner01-13-08, 10:12 PM | -This is one of the main problems with the new Realms, as I see it. There is too much that doesn't logically seem to evolve from the setting as it was, and therefore, too much that seems to have just been added in for 4e, or the preparation of 4e- Case in point, the sudden appearance of Dragonborn eggs, and their prevalance in the 4e Realms, due to them being a 4e Core Race, or debacle between Sune, Tymora, Helm, Tyr, Mystra, Cyric, Shar, etc., to begin slimming the pantheon. I'd like to believe that the effort to make a 'core' setting means that the Realms can exist independantly of core lore with the D&D style still being carried over. Such things as the changing cosmology, origin stories (demon/angel histories) and dragonborn etc. will all take place in this new core setting and are kept distinct from the FR lore. It would seem(fingers crossed) that the drastic changes the designers are making for the realms are to merely fit in with the over-arching "points of light" D&D philosophy. Levelling the playing field, if you will, for similar play style as opposed to similar setting style. Meaning characters can be moved from one setting to another whilst still being able to maintain the 'feel' of playing D&D, lore being the aspect that differentiates the campaign setting(not rules)! Thus we won't need to worry about Dragonborn popping up and Warforged lumbering about(unless it's in your own campaign) and can still carry on chasing our Dhaerow and enjoying frequent visits from the Lantanian Gnomes. Yet meld with the 'points of light' back-to-basics D&D push....whether such a direction is needed is still up for discussion. This is all hopeful speculation from what little I have gathered about wizards intent for 4ed Realms. Which seems, from my perspective, to be a push for definition by style and flavour rather than rules and crunch. ...time will tell but we can only hope this pollarding of our great tree bears friut. |
| Lord Karsus01-13-08, 11:24 PM | I agree, and that's coming from someone who likes the core 4E dragonborn. -She agrees, so that's all that matters. I'd like to believe that the effort to make a 'core' setting means that the Realms can exist independantly of core lore with the D&D style still being carried over. Such things as the changing cosmology, origin stories (demon/angel histories) and dragonborn etc. will all take place in this new core setting and are kept distinct from the FR lore. -In an ideal world, that would be the case, but as we don't live in this utopian place, it seems that's all just wishful thinking...:( -It's not all bad, however, as there are some things, one example being what GreenKnight pointed out, that are not going to be cardboard cut-outs from the 'Core'/Generic D&D books. |
| MarkusTay6301-14-08, 01:06 AM | They are saving the Cardboard cut-out people for PH III, coming to a store near you in 2010. |
| Lord Karsus01-14-08, 01:47 AM | They are saving the Cardboard cut-out people for PH III, coming to a store near you in 2010. -Perhaps that is why the Mayans predicted the end of the world in 2011... |
| MarkusTay6301-14-08, 01:50 AM | I sure hope so - I wonder how WotC will feel about their 'reboot', when God decides to do the same to us? God: "Sorry guys, but some of MY NPCs were getting too powerful..." |
| 18DELTA01-14-08, 02:00 AM | -Hey, maybe The Core World is where they are going to come from. :rolleyes: ;) :P LORD DELTA :P |
| Fingoldfin01-14-08, 03:00 AM | -I think you are misunderstanding what I mean. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the race, or that they are not interesting, or whatever. On a personal level, I feel that Dragonborn, no matter how much retconning and whatever is done, will always feel artificial in the Realms, because they were injected into the Realms specifically because they are a 4e Core Race, and as such, need to be included. A person who's first experience with the Realms is in 4e might not feel the same way, because, from their perspective, they've always had them. I feel the same way about...Warlocks, Goliaths, etc. They all feel very articifial, because they were all introduced into the setting due to the existence of those specific 3e books that they all appeared in. Now, I'm starting to ramble, but I hope you understand what I mean. I could accept Dragonborn as a very minor race, but the Draconian nation dropping out of no where is just stupid to me. |
| johnkretzer01-14-08, 03:14 AM | That's true, but I don't mind their introduction, myself. After all, didn't the Untherites, Mulhorandis, and one subspecies of Orc get introduced in pretty much the same way in the same area? That part of Faerun has an annoying habit of yanking whole cultures from other worlds and dropping them right in there, so I don't mind their introduction, even if it was only because they're in 4E. Just be grateful it didn't reach into Earth, again. Who knows who else would've been pulled through. God help us if a section of Brooklyn were to get shunted into the Realms...:eek: But this what I don't get...they have said they didn't like those places and felt the need to remove because those places were transplanted...so they replace them with another transplanted region. Can't they atleast be consistent? Also why do they need to have a large nation to be introduced at all? I just find it very...sloppy. |
| Lord Karsus01-14-08, 03:21 AM | God: "Sorry guys, but some of MY NPCs were getting too powerful..." -Heh. Can't they atleast be consistent? -No. |
| Fingoldfin01-14-08, 03:32 AM | But this what I don't get...they have said they didn't like those places and felt the need to remove because those places were transplanted...so they replace them with another transplanted region. Can't they atleast be consistent? Also why do they need to have a large nation to be introduced at all? I just find it very...sloppy. Why would you think they would try to be consistent at this point? It doesn't feel like the Realms anymore. It's just one big, sloppy, magical cluster**** of a setting. :( Yes, I think we have more than enough information to judge it now, but I'm sure someone will come by to tell us we don't "know" enough yet. :rolleyes: |
| Arliekkos01-14-08, 03:46 AM | I feel that the Dragonborn could have been very easily introduced into the existing campaign world by just following the plot hook from the WoTC product : Dragons of Faerun as mentioned in the "Turning of the Great Cycle" in which "In the Year of the Lightning Storms (1374 DR) Faerun was beset by great lightning strikes the length and breadth of the continent. At least some of those lightning strikes marked the impact points of an unusual year-long rain of meteors. In a series of visions, Bahamut and Tiamat instructed their respective followers to seek out such sites, for each contained a form of draconic egg within. In the months that followed, the Church of Tiamat recovered more than half the eggs of the latest Tearfall and brought them back to the Altar of Scales in Unthalass in preparation for the looming war. The rest were lost, hatched on their own, or recovered by followers of Bahamut." |
| Lord Karsus01-14-08, 03:51 AM | Yes, I think we have more than enough information to judge it now, but I'm sure someone will come by to tell us we don't "know" enough yet. :rolleyes: -We don't know enough to make an accurate judgement yet. :teach: I feel that the Dragonborn could have been very easily introduced into the existing campaign world by just following the plot hook from the WoTC product : Dragons of Faerun as mentioned in the "Turning of the Great Cycle" in which "In the Year of the Lightning Storms (1374 DR) Faerun was beset by great lightning strikes the length and breadth of the continent. At least some of those lightning strikes marked the impact points of an unusual year-long rain of meteors. In a series of visions, Bahamut and Tiamat instructed their respective followers to seek out such sites, for each contained a form of draconic egg within. In the months that followed, the Church of Tiamat recovered more than half the eggs of the latest Tearfall and brought them back to the Altar of Scales in Unthalass in preparation for the looming war. The rest were lost, hatched on their own, or recovered by followers of Bahamut." -I've been going under the assuption that this was what they were going to use to introduce the race into the setting. Personally, I am extremely surprised that they did not take advantage of this. The more I think about it, the more I scratch my head. It was like, an amazing and painfully obvious hook to use. |
| Arliekkos01-14-08, 04:12 AM | Which is why I'm quite amazed and puzzled that given the amount of time that most likely went into developing 4e (of which core wise I'm interested in checking out) that WoTC felt it was necessary to do a slash a burn of the entire FR setting. The change in the way spells are prepared and cast could have been worked in with Mystra realizing after a very close brush with oblivion what would happen to Faerun and invoke changes in the way magic is performed or any other multitude of ideas. The brush with oblivion could have easily strained the veil that separates Faerun from the Feywild though there have always been portals and gateways in the Realms, or from Magic of Faeurn the mention of Crossroads and Backroads.. so many ways to go about it instead of, in essence, creating an entire new game setting. As it is, with the timeline advancement, any and all established NPC's from the Realms not having the advantage of longer than normal lives have been swept away like so much dust on a shelf. |
| GreenKnight01-14-08, 04:23 AM | But this what I don't get...they have said they didn't like those places and felt the need to remove because those places were transplanted...so they replace them with another transplanted region. Can't they atleast be consistent? I imagine it's because it's one thing to have transplants from one fantasy world appearing on another fantasy world. It's a whole other thing to have transplants from real-world Earth appearing on Faerun. -I've been going under the assuption that this was what they were going to use to introduce the race into the setting. Personally, I am extremely surprised that they did not take advantage of this. The more I think about it, the more I scratch my head. It was like, an amazing and painfully obvious hook to use. Yeah, that's the way I thought they'd be introduced, too. |
| Lord Karsus01-14-08, 04:45 AM | I imagine it's because it's one thing to have transplants from one fantasy world appearing on another fantasy world. It's a whole other thing to have transplants from real. -I like the latter, actually. I think it's cool to think that Ancient Egyptian society began to decline because Imaskari slavers appeared and began kidnapping people left and right. A fellow player did something like that in a homemade game that my DM made up years ago, that heavily deals with timetravel and 'worldhopping'. The character was the last Greek soldier alive and fighting at the Battle of Thermopoly (sp?). A magical spell cast by a Persian shaman/priest/whatever caused him to be wisked away in the timestream and end up where all players in the game come from. |
| GreenKnight01-14-08, 04:59 AM | -I like the latter, actually. I think it's cool to think that Ancient Egyptian society began to decline because Imaskari slavers appeared and began kidnapping people left and right. I'm hesitant of the whole thing, myself, because of the possible implications from that. Thousands of years have passed on Faerun since then, and an equal amount of time has likely passed on Earth as well. So what's next? Is Napoleon's army gonna come tromping through a gate, or a German Armored Company? Or depending on just when the Imaskari started snatching people up, will the denizens of D20 Future start popping in with their power armor and mecha? I dunno. Just something about that that bugs me, so I generally prefer not to mix stuff with Earth without more careful consideration of things. A magical spell cast by a Persian shaman/priest/whatever caused him to be wisked away in the timestream and end up where all players in the game come from. I gotta admit, though, that's pretty cool. But then again, I really loved both 300 and The 300 Spartans. :D |
| Lord Karsus01-14-08, 06:21 AM | I'm hesitant of the whole thing, myself, because of the possible implications from that. Thousands of years have passed on Faerun since then, and an equal amount of time has likely passed on Earth as well. So what's next? Is Napoleon's army gonna come tromping through a gate, or a German Armored Company? Or depending on just when the Imaskari started snatching people up, will the denizens of D20 Future start popping in with their power armor and mecha? I dunno. Just something about that that bugs me, so I generally prefer not to mix stuff with Earth without more careful consideration of things. -Elminster might drop by some random persons house, and explain to whoever he finds there the ins and outs of Abeir-Toril...:rolleyes: |
| Gray Richardson01-14-08, 02:22 PM | I feel that Dragonborn, no matter how much retconning and whatever is done, will always feel artificial in the Realms, because they were injected into the Realms specifically because they are a 4e Core Race, and as such, need to be included.The Realms have a long history of interloper races coming to Toril and establishing themselves. Elves, Illithids, Beholders, Treants, Goblins, Orcs, and many other races are known to have come originally from other worlds. The Dragonborn are just the latest race to immigrate to Toril in a well established tradition of interloper races settling in Faerûn. No retcon is being implemented, nor is any necessary. History is not being revised, just moving forward. The addition of the dragonborn does not change what has gone before. But it is legitimate for you to feel that the race feels artificial. I am sure a lot of people will feel that way at first. Dragonborn probably should feel a little alien to the Realms; they are essentially a foreign race that is trying to make their way in a world that is as strange to them as they are to us. In time, no doubt, they will come to be accepted, will begin to feel like they have a place in the Realms. Dragonborn may even become the favorite race of some players. The key will be the new lore that is written about this race. If the designers tell a compelling story about the Dragonborn, give them intriguing mysteries and exciting plot arcs, people will want to explore the race and the region a little bit more. Good writing will go a long way towards gaining acceptance for the race among Forgotten Realms fans. Myself, I am looking forward to seeing how things develop. |
| MarkusTay6301-14-08, 02:29 PM | If people want to play Dragonborn, they could have done so in Dragonlance. Changing the name does not change what something is, sorry. Its the differences beteeen settings that make them attractive, not making them all the same. First our Gnomes began to 'tinker', and then our Halflings got 'Kenderized'... What next? Towers of High Magic? Oh... wait... :rolleyes: |
| 18DELTA01-14-08, 02:33 PM | I'm hesitant of the whole thing, myself, because of the possible implications from that. Thousands of years have passed on Faerun since then, and an equal amount of time has likely passed on Earth as well. So what's next? Is Napoleon's army gonna come tromping through a gate, or a German Armored Company? Or depending on just when the Imaskari started snatching people up, will the denizens of D20 Future start popping in with their power armor and mecha? I dunno. Just something about that that bugs me, so I generally prefer not to mix stuff with Earth without more careful consideration of things. -Maybe, An Imperial Star Destroyer shows up and unleashes "Base Delta Zero" on the planet. Would the planet survive a Proton torpedo bombardment from outer space?:eek: ;) :P :D LORD DELTA:emp: |
| GreenKnight01-14-08, 02:34 PM | Nah, man. That ain't gonna happen. Star Wars is set a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. |
| Kenzuki01-14-08, 02:39 PM | Suddenly a Dark Portal opens up outside of Waterdeep in the swamps, then come the hundering orcish Horde of Draenor! They rush towards Waterdeep intent upon its destruction when suddenly a wizard appears before them. "Eh..damn guys sorry, this isn't Azeroth. Get back in the portal, I'm going to try this again." They sulk and walk back into the portal as Medivh waves goodbye to Blackstaff before vanishing into the night.... |
| MarkusTay6301-14-08, 02:40 PM | Star Wars takes place in the Delta Quadrant of long ago - Darth Vader became the first Borg High Commander. After several failed attempts, he realized Giant Spheres were not the way to go, and he switched to Cubes instead. |
| 18DELTA01-14-08, 02:55 PM | Nah, man. That ain't gonna happen. Star Wars is set a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. -It could be during the same time period?;) -Wouldn't that be fun, Letting Vader kick Drizzit's @ss.:D Or TURNING him to THE DARK SIDE!!!:emp: :w00t: :plotting: :lightbulb :evillaugh :schemes: :ayyyy!: :cloud9: -Yes I am touching my smilies again!!!:P LORD DELTA:D |
| 18DELTA01-14-08, 03:00 PM | Star Wars takes place in the Delta Quadrant of long ago - Darth Vader became the first Borg High Commander. After several failed attempts, he realized Giant Spheres were not the way to go, and he switched to Cubes instead. -So...are you saying that Vader is behind the Rubix Cube?:eek: :rofl: LORD DELTA:P |
| GreenKnight01-14-08, 03:33 PM | -It could be during the same time period?;) "What part of 'A Long Time Ago...' do you not understand, ****er ****er?" http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/233373/2269721macewindu.jpg :D :P |
| Kenzuki01-14-08, 03:34 PM | "What part of 'A Long Time Ago...' do you not understand, ****er ****er?" http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/233373/2269721macewindu.jpg :D :P zomg BEARS ON A TRAIN! |
| Dark Wizard01-14-08, 04:10 PM | zomg BEARS ON A TRAIN! I'd pay to see it. |
| MarkusTay6301-14-08, 05:18 PM | Just compare - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a1/Picard_as_Locutus.jpg http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Vader_Unmaskedsm.jpg Of course the Borg evolved from the technology used in Darth Vader's suit! And the Rubik's Cube was only one of thousands of plans the Borg used to try and assimilate and unsuspecting Earth populce. :eek: zomg BEARS ON A TRAIN!I was thinking more along the lines of - Ewoks in an At-AT Walker. :P |
| Lord Karsus01-14-08, 06:07 PM | The Realms have a long history of interloper races coming to Toril and establishing themselves. Elves, Illithids, Beholders, Treants, Goblins, Orcs, and many other races are known to have come originally from other worlds. The Dragonborn are just the latest race to immigrate to Toril in a well established tradition of interloper races settling in Faerûn. -People seem to be misinterpreting what I mean. Elves, Mindflayers, and so on all came to the setting before any of us began following the lore/playing in the setting. Dragonborn are being injected into the setting after we have begun following the lore/playing in the setting. No matter how much integration they give the race, they are alwyas going to come with the connotation that they were injected into the setting. |
| Lord Karsus01-14-08, 06:07 PM | Star Wars takes place in the Delta Quadrant of long ago - Darth Vader became the first Borg High Commander. After several failed attempts, he realized Giant Spheres were not the way to go, and he switched to Cubes instead. -If I ever hear you speaking such blasphemy again... |
| 18DELTA01-14-08, 06:19 PM | zomg BEARS ON A TRAIN! -I was thinking Shades on a train!!!:rolleyes: ;) :P :D LORD DELTA:tie: |
| MarkusTay6301-14-08, 07:18 PM | Shades on the Eberron Lightning Rail? :D I wouldn't mind seeing them move there... You know, to be serious for a sec, Shades were one of the things people HATED most about some of 3e's changes... So why the hell did they make the cut? :uh-huh: They have to be the worst thing FR has ever had 'injected' into it... Although the Dragonborn may be taking there place for worst idea ever... |
| Lord Karsus01-14-08, 07:30 PM | -Just stop thinking. |
| Brand_X01-14-08, 07:43 PM | I sat down in a Barnes and Noble and read the book. Bards, my favorite class from day 1 in 1977 when I read through the Players Handbook. Bards... you think Wizards feel like they are useless? Try taking a class that has so many hangups to become the class. Bards are a much maligned and misunderstood class. Song of Courage should be stackable with other Bards. :invasion: Not to mention 1st edition Psionics. When I ran my 1st 1st Edition game as a DM I put thought into what I would accept. It was 1983 in school. I took off the level caps and the racial restrictions. It worked. Then when the party of 6 characters that were average level 10 encountered a Kobold that spoke in clear understandable common telling them to leave his cavern they were suprised to find out I worked out how to give the Kobold Cleric levels as I nearly had a TPK. 2nd Edition was all about the books and running from the witch hunters over Devil and Demon worshipping game. 3rd/3.5 Retained so much of the Flavor of 1st/2nd without destroying it. I appreciated the improvedand rational Mechanics that were basically laid over the Flavor of the original without destroying what it was. Sure THAC0 was not bad but the D20 system was smoother and more workable. What I have read in the R&C for 4E is just a blatant smash the system and make something new to me. I will sit firmly with those that think the destruction of the Realms (RIP 1986 - 2008) was totally unecessary. They could have and still could make 4E Compatible with 3.X quite easily. Rather than a TOTAL overhaul of the system. After all if your brakes are not working it does not mean you rebuild your Chrysler into a Chevrolet. |
| Stigger01-14-08, 07:57 PM | Not sure its going to be all that radically different actually... and I suspect it will be basically compatible in a lot of ways with just a smidgen of work on a DMs part. Different enough in some core assumptions to justifiy a new rules edition I think, but not different enough to make things untranslatable with a bit of effort. |
| MarkusTay6301-14-08, 08:22 PM | I have my suspicians as to the real reasons the setting needed to be changed, and I think making money was only one factor, and certain people (:bored:) not wanting to have to learn the previous lore being another... and I'm not talking about customers... I think some personal agendas were involved as well, but I could never prove that. Oh well, its all water under the bridge now. :( Different enough in some core assumptions to justifiy a new rules edition I think, but not different enough to make things untranslatable with a bit of effort.Therein lies the rub - we've been told the changes were neccessary because of the new rules edition, yet another designer, James Wyatt, has already put the lie to that - Eberron isn't going to change at all. I haven't seen ANYTHING I won't be able to use in the current year. True, I haven't actually seen the new rules yet, but from what little we know, I just don't see enough there to warrant all of these drastic changes. After all if your brakes are not working it does not mean you rebuild your Chrysler into a Chevrolet.More like rebuilding a Stealth Fighter into a Model 'T' Ford... :rolleyes: |
| Neutronium_Dragon01-15-08, 12:16 AM | > Suddenly a Dark Portal opens up outside of Waterdeep in the swamps, then > come the hundering orcish Horde of Draenor! They rush towards Waterdeep > intent upon its destruction when suddenly a wizard appears before them. You do realize that that's essentially how the gray orcs arrived in eastern Faerun. |
| Lord Karsus01-15-08, 12:45 AM | You do realize that that's essentially how the gray orcs arrived in eastern Faerun. -Kenzuki seemed to be posting in a jovial manner. Could you also please start using the QUOTE tags, so I don't have to go digging back in the conversation to see what you are referencing? |
| 18DELTA01-15-08, 12:50 AM | -Kenzuki seemed to be posting in a jovial manner. Could you also please start using the QUOTE tags, so I don't have to go digging back in the conversation to see what you are referencing? -Like this.:) Suddenly a Dark Portal opens up outside of Waterdeep in the swamps, then come the hundering orcish Horde of Draenor! They rush towards Waterdeep intent upon its destruction when suddenly a wizard appears before them. "Eh..damn guys sorry, this isn't Azeroth. Get back in the portal, I'm going to try this again." They sulk and walk back into the portal as Medivh waves goodbye to Blackstaff before vanishing into the night.... LORD DELTA:thumbsup: |
| Neutronium_Dragon01-15-08, 12:53 AM | Unfortunately, I can't really make use of quote tags from this system or I would. But my comment wasn't intended to be hostile - it's actually rather amusing how often you have "that sounds familiar..." moments if you play both settings extensively. |
| Lord Karsus01-15-08, 12:53 AM | -Yes, very good Delta. Here's a Scooby Snack. |
| Neutronium_Dragon01-15-08, 01:17 AM | Nope, just tried to solve it again. Problem: No images enabled for this site. (And no, I can't change that.) Thus, I can't see the button you need to click for quoting a post. But going back to my comment about the gray orcs and the Warcraft scene, that's actually something that stuck in my imagination. When I saw the "opening the dark portal" instance in WoW, I mentally transposed that scene to Faerun. Replace the scenery and responsible wizard with Thayan ones, and the whole, "... soon your horde will be unleashed upon this ripe, unsuspecting world!" scene has, ever after, been how I unavoidably pictured it playing out out in Faerun too. ;) |
| Lord Karsus01-15-08, 01:25 AM | -Click on the 'My Account' tag at the top left of the screen. When the dropdown menu appears, click on the 'Edit My Thread Viewing Options'. Scroll down about halfway, there there should be a whole bunch of buttons you can check 'on' or 'off' to adjust your settings. But going back to my comment about the gray orcs and the Warcraft scene, that's actually something that stuck in my imagination. When I saw the "opening the dark portal" instance in WoW, I mentally transposed that scene to Faerun. Replace the scenery and responsible wizard with Thayan ones, and the whole, "... soon your horde will be unleashed upon this ripe, unsuspecting world!" scene has, ever after, been how I unavoidably pictured it playing out out in Faerun too. ;) -Numerous races and societies are interlopers, originally. |
| Neutronium_Dragon01-15-08, 01:34 AM | I know - which is why I find the kerfuffle about how dragonborn appeared to be a little odd. Both for the region and the setting in general, the way they showed up is very much in keeping with how most races have ended up in the FR. |
| 18DELTA01-15-08, 02:21 AM | -Yes, very good Delta. Here's a Scooby Snack. -Now if only I could post Scoob's laugh!!!(The sound he makes):D Unfortunately, I can't really make use of quote tags from this system or I would. But my comment wasn't intended to be hostile - it's actually rather amusing how often you have "that sounds familiar..." moments if you play both settings extensively. -Your quote, I cut/pasted it.;) LORD DELTA:ayyyy!: |
| 18DELTA01-15-08, 02:23 AM | I know - which is why I find the kerfuffle about how dragonborn appeared to be a little odd. Both for the region and the setting in general, the way they showed up is very much in keeping with how most races have ended up in the FR. -Yeah Rich FARTS and new races appear!!!:D -This time I hit the quote button on the lower right side of the screen.;) LORD DELTA:teach: |
| msatran01-15-08, 02:26 AM | At least the Model T functioned. Dude, this is a Yugo. |
| MarkusTay6301-15-08, 02:57 AM | Too New - lets compromise - its like an Edsel. :D -Yeah Rich FARTS and new races appear!!!:D Is that how we wound up with this new setting? Someone took him to a burrito bar? :eek: |
| Lord Karsus01-15-08, 03:13 AM | I know - which is why I find the kerfuffle about how dragonborn appeared to be a little odd. Both for the region and the setting in general, the way they showed up is very much in keeping with how most races have ended up in the FR. -It because 99.9% of the interlopers were introduced as a part of the overall story/history of the Realms. For all intents and purposes, they were always there, in relation to our reading/gaming in the setting. Dragonborn are being injected now, in the present. Like Star Elves, and they had trouble gaining acceptance. |
| 18DELTA01-15-08, 03:27 AM | Is that how we wound up with this new setting? Someone took him to a burrito bar? :eek: -Its like the "TurboLax" scene from "Dumb and Dumber"!!!:D LORD DELTA:P |
| MarkusTay6301-15-08, 03:30 AM | I think the quality of the posts tonight are sinking to a new all-time low. Its time to go to sleep. Night All. ;) |
| 18DELTA01-15-08, 03:35 AM | I think the quality of the posts tonight are sinking to a new all-time low. Its time to go to sleep. Night All. ;) :bravo: LORD DELTA:dancin: |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-15-08, 09:40 AM | I sat down in a Barnes and Noble and read the book. Bards, my favorite class from day 1 in 1977 when I read through the Players Handbook. Bards... you think Wizards feel like they are useless? I didn't get that impression from the book.:) |
| Stigger01-15-08, 02:17 PM | I'd say they were just proving a pain in the arse to balance against everyone else... same with druids. Again, one of the many reasons why I dislike balance to begin with... |
| MarkusTay6301-15-08, 02:31 PM | Druids are hard because they are only useful in certain terrain - like Aquaman. ;) Bards are tough, just because they are hard to define. Personally, as soon as I get my hands on the new rules, I''m going to create a PrC, or 'path' in 4e tterminology), that duplictates the Bards abilities. I don't think the Bard should be its own class - I think previous editions had the right idea. Just like the Assassin, ANY class should be able to pick up the Bard's abilities. In RL, the Bards, or Skalds, or whatever, where still a part of the army, so that the roll of 'Bard' became secondary to their prime purpose. Why can't we have singing warriors, or Wizards, or even... dare I say it... Rogues? The 2e CBH is the perfect place to start - in there, you can find all those kits, and creat bard-paths for all the core classes. :D |
| msatran01-15-08, 04:27 PM | Uh, Markus, Druid is one of the most powerful classes in the game. A properly played druid can easily wipe out whole scads of enemies, scout them out, hammer them with spells, and melee to death anything that's left. |
| MarkusTay6301-15-08, 04:33 PM | Ummm... I'm probably thinking of the 1e/2e druids. :( Sadly, no-one has chosen to run one in any 3e games I have hosted or played in, so I have no clue what they are capable of. If I recall, from my initial read of them, they worked very much like WoW Druids (the Shape-shifting thing being played up in 3e). If so, thats good... my Tauren Druid pwned in Warcraft. :D |
| Brand_X01-15-08, 06:07 PM | I miss my 1st Edition Bard. Level 6 Fighter, Level 7 Rogue, Level 18 Bard with Druid Spells. Get outta my way bad guys cause I am coming to kick your butts. :fight!: |
| MarkusTay6301-15-08, 06:17 PM | My charcter was an Anti-Paladin/Death Priest/Dark Ranger/Evil bard If I had played him longer, I would have went for a few levels of corruption-Druid. :devil: Gawd, I was such an evil-wannabe back then. Don't remember all my levels, but I know I was at least 18 in Anti-Plaladin. Funny thing, I was one of the peeps crying the loudest when they changed the Paladins alignment requirements in 4e - go figure. :rolleyes: |
| Lord Karsus01-15-08, 06:22 PM | Funny thing, I was one of the peeps crying the loudest when they changed the Paladins alignment requirements in 4e - go figure. :rolleyes: -Paladin is not the same as Anti-Paladin, however, so you were and still are justified. |
| MarkusTay6301-15-08, 06:28 PM | Thanks for that - that was how I was seeing it, but I didn't think anyone else would. |
| Lord Karsus01-15-08, 06:38 PM | Thanks for that - that was how I was seeing it, but I didn't think anyone else would. -You'd be surprised. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin01-15-08, 06:54 PM | Yes, I don't think of a paladin and an anti-paladin as being one and the same, either. |
| Dzwood01-16-08, 12:40 AM | I dont know if we are posting here or if we started a new thread but.... I am working through Worlds and Monsters right now. Borders just got it today. The art is amazing but that is all I can say since I am only on page 14 so far. But I already have a problem starting on page 12 we have a list of Key Conceits. Several of these "feel" anti-FR. By that i mean they go against the established feel of the realms. Remote Gods basicly they dont care about mortals they have "people" for that. No Forced race relations aka we cant hate orcs just for being orcs <sigh>. Dont even get me started on what is said about death...... Less Evil Fighting Evil. half the fun of playing an RPG is pitting two of the evil guys aginst eachother so you can get your job done. Just what I have right now and I had to vent. I am going to stay open minded till i get to look at the real books though. If you have any questions about the W&M let me know I will answer when i get finished with the book. That will prolly be later on tomarow |
| Lord Karsus01-16-08, 12:46 AM | I dont know if we are posting here or if we started a new thread but.... -18DELTA started a new thread here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=978820) to discuss this preview book. |
| MarkusTay6301-16-08, 01:00 AM | Eh, it doesn't matter - I discussed stuff from that one here as well. Most of the stuff I found to be pretty cool - unlike the last preview book, Its intersting to note that the last one listed four sources of power for warlocks, and in the newer one they list just three - and I believe at least two have been re-named since the last preview book. Strange - I don't think the rules will look much like their plans by the time we get a hold of them, if they are still changing their minds between preview books. Oh... and the closer they get to launch, the more stuff that gets cut out. :( |
| 18DELTA01-16-08, 01:00 AM | I dont know if we are posting here or if we started a new thread but.... I am working through Worlds and Monsters right now. Borders just got it today. The art is amazing but that is all I can say since I am only on page 14 so far. But I already have a problem starting on page 12 we have a list of Key Conceits. Several of these "feel" anti-FR. By that i mean they go against the established feel of the realms. Remote Gods basicly they dont care about mortals they have "people" for that. No Forced race relations aka we cant hate orcs just for being orcs <sigh>. Dont even get me started on what is said about death...... Less Evil Fighting Evil. half the fun of playing an RPG is pitting two of the evil guys aginst eachother so you can get your job done. Just what I have right now and I had to vent. I am going to stay open minded till i get to look at the real books though. If you have any questions about the W&M let me know I will answer when i get finished with the book. That will prolly be later on tomarow -Yeah I noticed it too. Rich Baker was on the Re-Concept Team for 4E. So was James Wyatt(Eberron). I really like the Core World.:) -18DELTA started a new thread here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=978820) to discuss this preview book. -Thanks. LORD DELTA:detect: |
| Fingoldfin01-16-08, 03:01 AM | Its intersting to note that the last one listed four sources of power for warlocks, and in the newer one they list just three - and I believe at least two have been re-named since the last preview book. Strange - I don't think the rules will look much like their plans by the time we get a hold of them, if they are still changing their minds between preview books. :( This is why I think they bit off more than they can chew. It looks like their plans are changing week to week. There were many sections in the first preview book where they just flat out said they didn't know what they would do. It looks like they're just throwing **** together as they go along. I no longer have any confidence that they know what they're doing in core or the Realms. If they're still making major changes then they'll never have time to do enough play testing. |
| Stigger01-16-08, 06:38 AM | That is a distinct worry, presuming you're correct Fin. Haven't looked at either, so couldn't say for myself. |
| Reneshat01-19-08, 02:07 AM | Sadly, no-one has chosen to run one in any 3e games I have hosted or played in, so I have no clue what they are capable of. With wildshape/polymorph errata, everything. Without wildshape/polymorph errata, everything to a disgusting degree. Spell Compendium really helps out with this one as well. |