Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-17-08, 08:58 AM	I haven't had the chance to get my hands on GHotR yet, does it clarify a lot about the Imaskari? They're my favorite people, Deep Imaskari in particular. I've always wondered how they came about their phenomenal knowledge of portals and had the idea that somehow it came from the Sharns after all they make purple portals all the time, and purple is the Imaskari official color (I know its kinda silly)! :heehee Plus they are ancient enemies of the Phaerimm and I read somewhere that the latter were partially responsible for the fall of Imaskar... So I'd had concluded that the Sharn breached the planar barriers and taught humans some of their secrets in an effort to combat an ancient enemy... Of course things got a little out of hand when their pupils started using such incredible power to breach realities and sequester thousands of slaves, picking a fight with their gods and having the Phaerimm weaken their barrier dweomers at the worst time possible... Just curious to know if there anything canon that makes this an impossibility, I know it could still be true on my Realms... But like I said just curious.
MarkusTay63 01-17-08, 09:21 AM	Phaerimm had nothing to do with the Imaskari - your thinking of Netheril. Also, the Phaerimms fought against the earlier Sarrukh civilizations as well. Sharns only exist in the North, AFAIK. They also had nothing to do with Imaskar, and a lot of what they really are was revealed in Schend's excellent novel Blackstaff. The Imaskari got their intial knowledge of Portal-magic from a discovery of ancient Batrachi (a creator race) ruins, and later received help from the Le'Shay (another creator race) when they put together the Imaskarkana. There is quite a bit of new lore concernog them in GHotR, and we learn that Shou-Lung, the major empire in Kara-Tur, is actually an Imaskari survivor state. Lots of other juicy tidbits in that tome as well. The most definitive source about Imaskar would be Lost Empires of Faerūn - a lot of that timeline went into the one in the GHotR. Lots of back-story in that source, and some nice plot-hooks for adventures.
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-17-08, 10:07 AM	I know as little as the involvement of the Phaerimm on Netheril's fall... I just thought I read somewhere of the participation of Phaerimm in Imaskar's ruin... Not really sure where but I'll hit the books and try to find it (or not hehe) to give you a quote. I haven't read any novels, except one some ten years ago about Elminster losing his powers and being semi necrophiliac hehe, so my know how of the realms is lacking. I read the Moonshae article and found the mention of Imaskar awesome, really unexpected. I understand that the leshay connection was hinted at some novel previously too? Is this leshay and Imaskarcana deal factual or just conjecture? This Batrachi connection also isn't mentioned on any of the books I have, is it on a novel too? I guess I should pick up some like this Blackstaff and Darkvision series, since they deal with subjects I find ineteresting. Thanks for being forthcoming with your answers.
Lord Karsus 01-17-08, 11:47 AM	-According to Brian: The leShay may have aided the Imaskari in the creation of the Imaskarkana, but they owe another progenitor race for their mastery of transdimentional magic. When a splinter tribe of ancient Durpari moved to settle the Raurin Plateau , they uncovered ruins from ancient Kolophoon, a great batrachi kingdom. Around -8000 DR they used several batrachi artifacts to craft the first Bukhara Spires, allowing them to craft a portal network throughout their burgeoning empire. The rest as they say is history
Bonzai 01-17-08, 12:22 PM	Darkvision also seems to verify the Leshay conection.
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-17-08, 12:53 PM	Thanks for the answers. Now all that is left is the Imaskar/Phaerimm connection, it was either some Imaskari became the Phaerimm and eventually aided on the Empire's downfall or something... Really cryptic and small mention in some book, which will be hard as to find. Or I'm just crazy. Either way I appreciate yall's time. EDIT: Yeah I must be crazy, reading Serpent Kingdom it says the Sarrukh warred with the Phaerimm circa -33,800 DR. Pot is not good for you boys and girls :rofl:
Gray Richardson 01-17-08, 03:21 PM	You are not crazy, Underdark p.9 tells us that the Imaskari did indeed create phaerimm. Although they were not the first to do so. The phaerimm have had at least 3 separate origins throughout history. Certain groups of advanced spellcasters have independently stumbled upon the secret of phaerimm transformation. What the appeal is, I cannot say, but the phaerimm form must have some attractive advantages for a group of people to want to undergo such a metamorphosis. Perhaps it is a last gasp strategy for populations that are dying out or about to lose a war. Or perhaps it is a method of achieving immortality that some find more palatable than lichdom. Eric Boyd shared the following information on another forum:At the present time, at least three such civilizations seem to have made the transformation: a predecessor or contemporary of Isstosseffifil, perhaps a rival sarrukh nation, the human sorcerors of Thaeravel, Land of Alabaster Towers, and the Imaskari. Thus there are three "origins of phaerimm", at least that we can guess at. Relevant references are found in Serpent Kingdoms, page 98, Lost Empires of Faerun, page 106, and Underdark, page 9, respectively. I think what is interesting is that the phaerimm metamorphosis does not appear to occur on an individual basis. Unlike becoming a lich, single spellcasters do not appear to be able to transform into phaerimm on their own. It appears to require a large group of people, perhaps even the whole population of a city or nation. One might construe from this that the process requires a large amount of spellcasters to work cooperatively, perhaps in spell circle fashion, along the lines of an epic spell. Such epic spellcasting puts the phaerimm transformation ritual in league with other such racial transformations that have occured throughout Faerūn's history. Such as the transformation of the dark elves of Miyeritar into Sharn; or the transformation of the originally octopoid, aquatic creator race into the amphibious, land-walking, frog-like batrachi; or the transformation of the dark elves into drow. One might also observe that the number of phaerimm that results from the transformation seems to be smaller than the amount of people required to initiate the ritual. From that we might construe any of 3 things, 1) that the backlash from the spell kills a significant portion of the participants in the spell, or 2) perhaps the spell requires the sacrifice of a significant number of people to fuel it, which is kind of gruesome but also appropriate given the evil nature of the rite, or 3) alternatively it may be that a single phaerimm requires an amalgam of 2 or more casters, in the same way that sharn are made up of 3 dark elves. After all, the phaerimm do have 4 arms. Although, I suppose a 4th possibility is that after the transformation, the phaerimm might turn on each other and battle for supremacy, to establish a pecking order, which may winnow the population significantly. Any one or combination of the above might serve to explain why the number of phaerimm around seems significantly fewer than the size of the populations that produced them.
MarkusTay63 01-17-08, 03:59 PM	It almost sounds like some sort of Alpha-Omega Weapon - you know, a Doomsday machine. When there is no other recourse for a threatened city, perhaps the energies of the Mythal/mantle/Mythallar or what have you can be focused by an archmage of sufficient power into a incredible Arcane transformation, destroying the city and its occupents in a huge explosion of Raw Magical Energy. So, hopefully, their enemies are taken out, and some of the denizens get to survive in a new form - it would almost be like a curse. I'm just wondering, then, why the Dark Elves didn't do the same? Or did they......? :eek:
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-17-08, 04:10 PM	Thanks a lot Gray, I knew I had something to go on, and I hadn't just imagined the Imaskar/Phaerimm interaction. You've put my mind at ease that its ok to keep toking! :lightbulb On a more serious note, Sharn are amalgamated elves?! Now thats something I'd never dreamed of... Really appreciate you going the extra mile and clarifying this.
Gray Richardson 01-17-08, 04:59 PM	Yes, the dark elves of Miyeritar survived the Dark Disaster by transforming into sharn. In -10,500 DR when high mages of Aryvandaar sent killing storms to scour the forest kingdom of Miyeritar from the face of Toril, the elves of Miyeritar used their own magic to become sharn and retreated below into the underdark. Each individual sharn comprises 3 dark elves, who melded together into a single sharn body with a gestalt consciousness. Note that these dark elves are not the same as drow as the Dark Disaster preceeded the Descent of the Drow by 5 centuries. The dark elves were normal elves with dark skin. Only later were the dark elves of Ilythiir transformed into drow by a separate high magic ritual. Note also that the spell (whether intentional or not) transformed not just the offending Ilythiiri, but all dark elves everywhere into drow, whether they lived in Ilythiir or not. Presumably this included any communities of dark elves far removed from Ilythiir, or even dark elf individuals who had allied with or married or integrated into the kingdom that performed the ritual.
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-17-08, 05:02 PM	"...the Imaskari were destroyed by the slaves they had abducted from other worlds (who eventually became the folk of Mulhorand and Unther) and the machinations of unusual creatures of their own creation (the phaerimms)..." Quote from page 9 of the Underdark. Great stuff, thanks to Gray again. I had a problem believing that it happened like Mulhorandi say it did. In my opinion their gods were never able to break the planar barriers set up by the Imaskari. A few thousand more worshippers weren't enough to empower gods to be able to challenge the might of Imaskar! The phaerimm weakened them just as they weakened Netheril's mythallar, also it wasn't the blasts and after effects of the battles between artificers and gods that transformed the Raurin and the now Plains of Purple Dust, sure the terrain was wildly transfigured, but phaerimm life draining is a much more sound explanation for the totality of the change. Destroyed by a direct product of their own making, not gods from a distant plane... and I thought the Imaskari couldn't get any better... Hehe goes to show that the survivors tell the tales, at least until the other survivors make it clear!
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-17-08, 05:03 PM	Yes, the dark elves of Miyeritar survived the Dark Disaster by transforming into sharn. In -10,500 DR when high mages of Aryvandaar sent killing storms to scour the forest kingdom of Miyeritar from the face of Toril, the elves of Miyeritar used their own magic to become sharn and retreated below into the underdark. Each individual sharn comprises 3 dark elves, who melded together into a single sharn body with a gestalt consciousness. Note that these dark elves are not the same as drow as the Dark Disaster preceeded the Descent of the Drow by 5 centuries. The dark elves were normal elves with dark skin. Only later were the dark elves of Ilythiir transformed into drow by a separate high magic ritual. Note also that the spell (whether intentional or not) transformed not just the offending Ilythiiri, but all dark elves everywhere into drow, whether they lived in Ilythiir or not. Presumably this included any communities of dark elves far removed from Ilythiir, or even dark elf individuals who had allied with or married or integrated into the kingdom that performed the ritual. Very interesting... I guess I should start reading the novels! EDIT: Hehe I meant I was appreciative of your explanation and extra effort on the Imaskar/Phaerimm situation, not asking you to go the extra mile on the sharn, I should've organized my paragraphs better... :D But now, that you did anyways, I can only :bow: to your knowledge and grace.
MarkusTay63 01-18-08, 04:56 PM	So, let me get this straight - The Imaskari had some sort of 'forcefield' (Planar Barrier) that was strong enough to keep out gods - but only if they tried to enter via another Crystal Sphere/Dimension/Prime World. The Paerimm had some contention with the Imaskari - it appears they are attracted to areas of extemely high magic, and destroy it (perhaps they 'consume' it?). The Phaerimm were not able to 'eat' Imaskar's protective magics - causing them to fail - until AFTER the Mulan Gods made War on Imaskar, and destroyed their cities. Conjecture: This is why Imaskar was able to survive for so long without becoming a desert - they had found a way to 'block' the Phaerimm, probably by discovering the same spell created by the Archwizard Shenandra of Shadowtop Borough. Unlike her, they actually got a cance to use their spell, which they probably had 'installed' in whatever sort of shielding-magic Imaskari cities used (Mthal/Mythallar/Mantle/etc). Once the God-Kings showed up and destroyed all such shielding, the Phaerims were free to do their dirty work. This makes MUCH more sense, in light of the fact that only Nemrut proper should have been devasted by the divine magics unleashed. The other kingdoms comprising Imaskar (of which their were many) lasted much longer, and the lower Raurin only began to succumb to the encroaching desert about 1000 years ago (the Kingdom Bakar stiil existed then). And then the Phaerimm probably moved onto Tsharoon and the Quoya... Yes...yes... it's all becoming clear to me now... :plotting:
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-18-08, 05:25 PM	I don't know, that quote implies a direct involvement of the phaerimm on the destruction of the Imaskar people. Going as far as mentioning the two causes of the fall, Mulhorandi/Untheric predecessors as one cause and the phaerimm as the other. Not only some contention like you said, its clear they were destroyed by both, if the phaerimm just acted after the the cities fell, I don't see why put them on par with the Mulhorandi/Untheric people as to why the Imaskari fell. I think they (paherimm) weakened the Imaskari dweomers enough to let the Gods breach through, and once the gods did the dirty work, they set out to consume (or whatever is they do) the magics and lands of the people they helped bring to knee. Lending substance to the "machinations" part of the quote. Well thats my take on it anyways.
MarkusTay63 01-18-08, 06:01 PM	I would have thought that as well, but the passage about the Mulan Gods in 2e's Powers & Pantheons directly contradicts that -it says that Ao bacame aware of the prayers of the Mulan slaves, and asked Ptah (who exists in nearly every crytal Sphere, as per the SJ rules) to invite the two (three, actually) pantheons into Toril. So the Phaerimm would have had nothing to do with the Mulan Gods being able to enter Realmspace. However, if the Phaerimm were 'tying up' a major portion of the Imaskar's power at the time (keeping them at bay), then maybe that is why Imaskar was so easily beaten. Its kind of hard too fight powerful enemies on two fronts. Therefore, the Phaerimm would have contributed to the Imaskari downfall, but needn't have been involved with the Mulan Gods in any way (which canon states was the DIRECT cause). Furthermore, one can postulate that the Sharns were created from the dark Disaster, rather then Phaerimm, as an answer to 'life-eating magics'. The Phaerimm Ritual (used to create Phaerimm) was evil in nature, in that it saved the people involved, but turned them into creatures that would have a 'vampiric' relationship with magic. Since that involves draining life from living things, that would be anethema to Elves. the Sharn, on the other hand, would work as 'protectors' of life - at least the kind of life present in natural settings, like forests and such. Anything, including the Phaerimms, that interferred with this magical 'life-force' would become enemies of the Sharn, just as the Phaerimm did. In 4e, that 'Magical Life Force' will probably become the Fey Power Source.
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-18-08, 06:06 PM	Ah, I had no knowledge of the Ao involvement, pesky overdeities! Well at least I'm consoled thats what it took to bring my dear Imaskar down! Fighting aberrations, gods and armies of rebelious slaves all it once would do it for anyone. Thank you for being informative.
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 01:57 AM	No problem, glad to help. This thread actually helped me as well - look for the next insatallment of the CK Compendium. ;)
Gray Richardson 01-19-08, 02:08 AM	My understanding is that the god-barrier blocked the Mulan gods from entering Realmspace by means of the Astral Plane. Back in 2e, when all crystal spheres existed in the same material plane, the gods could presumably open portals, or astral travel or use planeshift to send avatars into the crystal sphere. The Imaskari god-barrier cut them off from whatever normal method of cosmic teleport that they ordinarily used. Note that the barrier did not prevent all gods from entering Realmspace, just the Mulan pantheons (which were apparently the Egyptian and Mesopotamian gods of D&D Earth, as envisioned in the 1e Deities & Demigods book.) I take the Imaskari god-barrier therefor to be something like when a website blocks out traffic from a specific URL. The Imaskari effectively tuned Realmspace's crystal sphere to block all traffic from Earth's cosmic "web-address". It was perhaps akin to a cosmic "net-nanny" spell. Since the Mulan deities could not reach Toril by planar means, they instead created physical manifestations (super-duper avatars) and traveled physically to Toril by means of spelljamming in 2 space arks. Apparently the god-barrier only prevented the planar travel methods, but did not prevent the gods from physically making the voyage and entering into Realmspace through non-planar means. While I don't think the phaerimm had anything to do with the Mulan gods entering Realmspace, I think it possible that when some faction of the Imaskari transformed into phaerimm, that new group of phaerimm, having formerly been Imaskari, now knew all the secrets and magical techniques of the Imaskari. They also now lived in the same geographical region as the Imaskari. The knowledge and location of this new population of phaerimm would give them reason to clash with, overcome and contribute to the downfall of the Imaskari--whereas previous groups of Phaerimm would have been neither familiar with Imaskari magical techniques, nor privy to Imaskari secrets or even basic intel. They furthermore would not have even lived in the area, as I believe most of the other two groups of phaerimm were contained beneath Anauroch hemmed in by the Sharn wall.
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-19-08, 03:25 AM	Great stuff there... Raises many questions. Why did these Imaskari choose to become phaerimm? Did they know (through divination) the end was coming and were desperate enough to make such a drastic change? Where they beholden to an Elder Evil and were given his "blessing", and became agents of his will (snuff all life in Toril)? Did they simply stumble into the method and recklessly performed the ritual, not knowing the consequences? We may never know, but theres stuff there for many adventures.
Alkasyn 01-19-08, 10:56 AM	It is mentioned in the GHoTR, that the Imaskari eventually became evil and anarchic, or something similar, so Id say they transformed into the Phaerimm jsut for the Power that transformation gave them.
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 01:13 PM	Nice stuff, as usual, Gray. They furthermore would not have even lived in the area, as I believe most of the other two groups of phaerimm were contained beneath Anauroch hemmed in by the Sharn wall.But that came MUCH later - I would assume that the Phaerimm created by the Imaskari left the Raurin - after leeching out much of its life - and traveled to Anauroch to feed off of the next largest source of magical energy - the Netherese. You say there were two groups, right? What do we know about them? Were they rivals? Also, were the original group living in the Anauroch the same as the one that attacked the Sarrukh? We are only assuming this because of the geography. After the Sarrukh fell, those Phaerimm might have went elsewhere looking for a meal, and taken down any number of civilizations somewhere on Toril (like the Fey?). I wonder, did the Sarrukh create the Phaerimm? Were they created to get rid of the meddlesome Fey? There is indication that the Sarrukh 'helped along' the downfall of the other two creator races, so it would make some sense. I posed some conjecture in the Designer's thread about the nature of Netherese magic, and that they probably used the Fey Power Source of 4e, rather then the Arcane. This fits because the Fey source would be associated with 'life', whereas Arcane wouldn't. It appears that is the energy that Phaerimm eat in 4e - the Fey power source (because they leech life as well while feeding off it). Perhaps that is why the Le'Shay helped the Imaskari? Maybe there was some old enemities there against the Sarrukh and their creations? Maybe the fifth creator race -humanity - was the only hope against all of the sarrukh's creations, after the other three fell? The Imaskari effectively tuned Realmspace's crystal sphere to block all traffic from Earth's cosmic "web-address". It was perhaps akin to a cosmic "net-nanny" spell.I am SO using that in my game - a cosmic entity, perhaps an Elder Evil, known only as the 'Net-Nanny'. :D
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-19-08, 01:46 PM	Perhaps that is why the Le'Shay helped the Imaskari? Maybe there was some old enemities there against the Sarrukh and their creations? Maybe the fifth creator race -humanity - was the only hope against all of the sarrukh's creations, after the other three fell? There may be something there... Maybe the leshay stopped providing the Imaskari support after they started delving into magics (interfering with gods) the leshay knew would lead to ruin, the beast was huge and they decided to stop feeding it. So in a act of petty defiance the Imaskari decided to become which their patrons were trying to destroy?
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 02:34 PM	Well, the Imaskari definately used Arcane magic, and if they were involved with the Fey, then they probably used the Fey (life) Power Source as well. Given that the novel Darkvision also shows them maing 'deals' (pacts?) with a starnge creature called 'mizar' leads me to believ they alos trafficked with Fiends, or something from the Far Realms. This indicates that within 4e's framework, the Imaskari were far more 'adept' at wielding different types of magic, even way surpassing the Netherese on this point. The more we learn about Imaskar, the more mysterious they become. :coolcthul It makes me think, now, that the Nethereses were nothing more then aunch of poisers, who relied too heavily on the Nether Scrolls for all their power. Its probably why they could never build a reliable Spelljammer Helm - obviously such a device would require the Arcane power source - one they would have little traffic with, considering much of their magic was based on their Mythallars (which, by logic, would use only Fey magical energy). When looking at FR's history through 4e's 'lens', certain new information appears to come to light. :)
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 02:43 PM	It makes me think, now, that the Nethereses were nothing more then aunch of poisers, who relied to heavily on the nether Scrolls for all their power. Its probably why they could never build a reliable Spelljammer Helm - obviously such a device would require the Arcane power source - one they would have little traffic with, considering much of their magic was based on their Mythallars (which, by logic, would use only Fey magical energy). -It's not that the Netherese couldn't build reliable Spelljammers, but the Arcanists in charge decided that in the end, Spelljamming was not profitable to continue. "In 2895 NY, the archwizards decided that the risk was far too great to justify the tremendous expense of lost ships and murdered crews." -And, I don't know what you are trying to insinuate with Mythallar, there, buddy...:cool:
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 02:50 PM	That the Elves and the Netherese share a common power source. I would say, using 4e terminology, that anything with the word 'myth' in it relied on the Fey power source. And I know 'Myth' means city, so don't go there. I'll be addressing THAT soon.... :emp: I just KNEW you couldn't help but post after seeing that I called the Netherese 'poisers'. :P BTW - several of the Archwizards DID experiment with other sources of power - its in the canon, which now actually fits better with 4e mechanics.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 02:54 PM	That the Elves and the Netherese share a common power source. I would say, using 4e terminology, that anything with the word 'myth' in it relied on the Fey power source. -So, we're going back and retroactivley changing things now? Mythals are powered by Elven High Magic. Mythallars are powered by True Dweomers, 10+ Level Magic, the Weave. That's how it is. And I know 'Myth' means city, so don't go there. I'll be addressing THAT soon.... :emp: -What's to address? There's nothing to address? Myth means 'City' in Elven, and it happens to be in both words. Loross isn't Elven, and Elven isn't Loross. Just like how there can be a Wulgreth of Ascalhorn and a Wulgreth of Netheril. I just KNEW you couldn't help but post after seeing that I called the netherese 'poisers'. :P -I don't even know what that means, but I don't like your tone of voice...:mad: (;))
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 03:09 PM	Ah, my little Lord Karsus, you are finally realizing the breath and scope of TRUE evil... MINE. :devil: ;) :P First off, I'm not ret-conning ANYTHING, I am simply applying the 4e perspective on the lore we know (since it WILL have been in affect since the beginning of time, even though we are only learning these terms now). With THAT in mind, doesn't it seem painfully obvious that the Netherese were using the same type of magic? Way before those atrocious 'Epic' rules came around, ONLY Elves and the Netherese were able to cast spells above 9th level! Don't you see? Mystra never changed the Weave... she NEVER allowed Arcane Magic above 9th level (more Mystra church propaganda)! The Netherese found a different way of casting spells then most others used - the Elven way. Its in the canon - look it up... the Elves helped them learn magic when they were starting out. Also, the Nether scrolls contained magic that the other three creator races didn't know about - Fey magic! Its all so obvious now! Fey magic is incredibly powerful, but it has a weakness - it requires 'life' as part of its usage. Sacrifices must be made... yadda, yadda, yadda. Phaerimms eat 'Life Magic', which is why the netherese were near-powerless against them! Thats why the Elves created the Sharn... as a last line of defense! <Mark's eyes glaze over> Yes... yessssss... I can see it all clearly now... my precious..... -What's to address? There's nothing to address? Myth means 'City' in Elven, and it happens to be in both words. Loross isn't Elven, and Elven isn't Loross. Just like how there can be a Wulgreth of Ascalhorn and a Wulgreth of Netheril. Myth had an older meaning... in Eladrin. :eek: (do you HATE me yet?) I know you despise changing lore, but if you stop being so 'negative' for a second (sorry), you would see how it all fits, and NOTHING is really being changed. All we are doing is applying new information to the lore we already know - and truth be told, it makes more sense now then it ever did within 1, 2, or 3e's framework. Just think of it as a new 'spin' on old lore, not new lore. ;)
XHereticX 01-19-08, 05:05 PM	But didn't the Nethernese delibrately abandon Elven magic in favor of older magic used by the Sarrukh, who predate the fey on Faerun? They can't completly retcon that without disturbing a good portion of the lore.
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-19-08, 05:14 PM	Can you tell me why the Sarrukh wrote the Nether Scrolls? The Golden Skins of the Serpent are Fey Powered? I don't know if its possible, but do you have a reason to say that? We talk about the Sarrukh involvement in warring (and perhaps creating) the phaerimm, why did they create the Nether Scrolls using Fey Powered magic, which they knew was vulnerable to the phaerimm's life drain? The Teraseer was also a Sarrukh, I truly don't recall, but isn't it after his appearance that the mythallar are developed? What were those particular (the Terraseer and the creators of the Scrolls) Sarrukh doing? Trying to feed the phaerimm? Or maybe bait them to finally destroy an ancient enemy, using the netherese as a deft marrioneteer pulling strings? Creator Races hatch schemes that take eons to unfold, maybe the phaerimm are paying for attacking the Sarrukh all those millennia ago... But on the other side, knowing of the phaerimm presence on the Raurin and the Planes of Purple Dust, we don't know what has had a hand in breeding all those purple worms, maybe a phaerimm empire...
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-19-08, 05:21 PM	Also is there any materials regarding Imaskari casters in 2e rules, in the period before the Moment of No Magic?
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 07:37 PM	Can you tell me why the Sarrukh wrote the Nether Scrolls? The Golden Skins of the Serpent are Fey Powered? Well, according to canon lore, the Nether scrolls were put together by the Sarrukh, Batrachi, and Aeree (sp?), and were compiled from 'magical traditions' (a term used WAY back in 2e, and now actually has a mechanical definition in 4e) that those three Creator Races were unaware of previously. Now, we can conjecture that each creator race used a different power source (the Batrachi probably used Far Realms/Psuedo-natural sources), but thats neither here nor there. All we know is that there was a type of magic that alluded them, and that would most likely be Fey magic (I mean come on, both the Creator Race and Power Source have the SAME name). There may have been other types of Magic in those scrolls, but the Fey magic is the most obvious - after all, its another canon fact that the Netherese discovered Shadow-magic/Plane of Shadow )4e's Umbral or Shadow Power Source), so we know that was not in the scrolls. The stuff in the scrolls was a compilation of lore the other three Creator Races DID NOT KNOW, so Shadow-Magic could have been something they used; at least one of them at any rate. What we DO know is that 4e Eladrinn (the 'group' name for Gold and Silver Elves) entered into Realmspace and brought their magic with them - I'm sure they were using Fey magic (4e's Fey Power Source), because it specifically says in canon that they traveled to Faerūn from Faerie. Therefore, the old definition of 'Elven High Magic' now refers to 'Fey Magic'. Anyway, The Fey were originally from Toril, most likely from a time BEFORE the other Creator races - there has been a little ret-conning where this is concerned, in the GHotR. In that tome, we have them sending Elves to Toril in -27,000 DR, which means they had to have left Toril MUCH earlier, and created/settled their own plane. That means that they had to be at least contemporaries of the other creator races, if not actually the first. In fact, there might have been some sort of conflict, and thats why they left. So now, after years of being away from their plane of birth, the farie begin to send Elves back to Toril, 're-seeding' the planet with beings capable of fey Magic. So now along comes the Netherese, who begin to learn magic at the feet of the Elves. Later, they get their hands on the scrolls (with a little help from the Terraseer, who's true intentions have never been revealed), and BAM! They become Uber-Magi! I think - and once again this only conjecture - that Mystra only allowed a certain level of magic (9th), and that most of her people only used Arcane magic (probably by some decree she made in primordial times, after the Creators almost destroyed the world with magic from various sources). So, Mystryl creates the weave, and limits Arcane magic (4e's Arcane Power Source) to 9th level, Of course, other magic could still go higher, but she systematically had her followers 'stamp-out' all other forms of magic early on, probably with the goal of keeping that sort of power out of mortal hands. The down side of this is that it casts Mystra now in a somewhat disparaging light. I'm not eaxactly sure about all the connections between the Sarrukh, Imaskar, Netheril, the Phaerimm, and the Sharn - but with the Terraseer pulling some strings in the background, I get the feeling that there was some sort of monolithic power-struggle involving magic and its sources dating back to primordial times. We have such little lore on Imaskar (almost none in 2e), how do we know the terraseer didn't influence them as well at some point? I mean really, he wasn't exactly siitting around like a 'couch potato' for 26,000 years! Look at the timeline - he appeared in netheril shortly after the Imaskari created the Imaskarkana... curiouser and curiouser... had his work there been completed? Or was he chased off? Is he himself a Chosen of Mystra, or perhaps some other god? There's a story there, I am sure of it, and a lot of this postulating I'm doing is simply applying 4e mechanics to existing lore, and seeing what we come up with.
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-19-08, 10:34 PM	The source of the power in the Nether Scrolls is alluded to "magical lore of chaotic races living in certain wilderness" (from page 55 of the Serpent Kingdoms), which can easily translate to Fey... That lore was gathered by the Sarrukh and their servitors during the heights of the empire. The contributions of the Batrachi and Aearee, along with Sarrukh, seem more to be in the study of of the notes gathered by the Sarrukh, who were unable to achieve the end of their research on the matter, due to troubles across their reign. The Ba'etith were a secret society, composed of members of those three races that penned the Golden Skins of the World Serpent. That book also says the Fey that are considered to be a creator race are satyrs, dryads, nymphs and the like you can probably put leshay there too. Further it goes on to cite Elves, Dwarves and some human ethnic groups to be planar interlopers. I don't understand when you say the elves must have left sometime before coming, since what we have right now says they were indeed outsiders, not natives to Toril itself. I think its better to assume that the elves were creatures from a plane that the leshay had access to, when they (leshay) decided to withdraw further from Toril, they arranged for stewards (elves) to come and guard their homeland. Maybe thats why the elves readily recognized the threat of the Nether Scrolls and tried to hide and safeguard them, knowing them to be treaties on the ancient power of their lords (the leshay). EDIT: Also, considering that Imaskari knowledge was plundered from Batrachi ruins, do we assume those specific Batrachi had access to the Scrolls? If that is true, and the stewardship of the leshay is taken into consideration, can we say that the Imaskari also used Fey magic early on? Reaching to the Mizar for a different power source when learning of the vulnerability of Fey magic to the phaerimm threat? Perhaps some Imaskari figured that out and became phaerimm in the hopes of dominating their fellows by draining away their magic, only to be faced by the new source the Mizar provided? Hehe every bit discovered only raises dozens of more questions and possibilities...
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 10:59 PM	in Evermeet: Isle of Elves is says that the city of Tintageer was located IN Faerie, and that the Elves (the Moon and Gold, who will be Eladrin in 4e) escpaed from their sinking city and found refuge on Toril - they were the ones who named the continent Faerūn. According to GHotR, that happened in -25,400 DR. Since faerie is part of the feywild, where the Fey/Le'Shay come from, that places them there at that time. Even earlier, in -27,000 DR, the faerie brought over the various groups of Sylvan Elves - the Dark, Grean, and Grugach, in order to help deter 'Dragon Rule' in Faerūn - that means as far back as -27K, the Fey had an invested interest in the Realms. Canon says they originated on toril, so that makes sense that they still care about their homeworld, but.... Then why did they leave? :confused: Thats the big question - for some reason the felt the need to depart Realmspace, yet still 'monitor' it from afar, and occassionally influence events. Now, the Le'Shay are said to be decendents of a timeline that no longer exists... Enter the Sundering!!! :eek: The Sundering wiped out dozens off races and civilizations, by going back in time and simply 'erasing them'. thats a canon fact - we have two seperate timelines before -17,000 DR; one pre-sundering, and the other post-sundering. Anyone who was part of the original world but was caught outside of Realmsapace would not have been affected by the temporal reset, and when they returned, they found that they never existed (or were wiped out thousands of years ago). So the Le'Shay are cursed, sort of, they are part of the original creator race - but there Race no longer exists. I think they may do something with this, considering all the attention they are giveing to the Feywild in 4e. Maybe we'll find out why the Fey left in the first place, and wha their goals are when they 'come back' to manipulate events. perhaps they are trying to re-create their own timeline? Maybe the Terraseer is working with them, or perhaps is their sworn enemy? It just seems like there is something 'way bigger' going on with Toril's history, and hopefully we will get some answers come August. Imaskar: The Batrachi were known for their 'Portal magic' - this is one reason (their appearance being another) why I connect them to the far Realms and Pseudo-natural magic; it lends itself to 'warping' dimensional spaces very well. This fits with what we know about the Imaskari, and their love of Magical Gates. Later, the Imaskari became very adept at creating inter-dimensional space (demi-planes), something that the Elves are also very good at. At this point, it appears the Le'Shay have stepped-up and are helping Imaskar. To top it all of, we know that they were using some of this new magical-tech to imprison certain Pseudo-natural creatures, like Pandorym (the Far-Realms equivalent of an Arch-find). Maybe some of their earlier experimenrts were threatening to overwhelm them, and they found it nccessary to treat with the Fey and obtain their secrets, to stem the damage?
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-19-08, 11:08 PM	Maybe they (the leshay) are running from what ended life as they knew it (the phaerimm?)... The Sundering an attempt to shake the trail? Maybe they even guided the first creator races in discovering Fey magic, to gain allies on the struggle against their enemies? And maybe avoid what the phaerimm have planned for this "timeline" also? Yeah, the mysteries are there, hopefully some light will be shed on them come the new books. EDIT: Imaskar comments: Yes sounds very likely, even more likely since the Batrachi used to be octopi like people which has an even more Far Realm feel to it. I read a passage on some thread about ancient Imaskari art work depicting Mizar and Leshay, with Imaskar trying to treat with both. Are phaerimm and mizar somehow related? Maybe the transformation was part of a bargain, one the Imaskari felt ended up back firing, thus asking the leshay for help? I hope they give this area of the mysteries of the Realms a nice coverage, as it seems to be one of the more complex, and one with incredible potential.
Krash 01-20-08, 12:01 AM	I was always going to put a Ba'etith stronghold in the ruins of Delhumide. Read the write up in the Spellbound boxed set to see where I'm coming from. If "Arthindol" (his Netherese name, not his sarrukh name) was a member of the Ba'etith, who was his counterpart/comrade from Okoth ...? And what were they planning on doing? And just why are there references to phaerimm in both Netheril and Imaskar with seemingly no link? And my final question: who were the first phaerimm? -- George Krashos
MarkusTay63 01-20-08, 12:27 AM	Yeah, this 'old world lore' is the best - it gives the Realms such depth, it almost becomes real. Sometimes I feal like the fantasy version of The Naked Archaeologist, plumbing the depths of Toril's most ancient mysteries. :D Glad to see you like where we were going here, George - its nice to see some of the old stuff get a little attention with 4e on the horizon.
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-20-08, 12:45 AM	Going out on a leg here but... The elves of Myeritar seemed to end up sacrificing themselves, and becoming especially equipped to deal with phaerimm by becoming the sharn. Is it explained why or how the Elves of Myeritar had knowledge of how to transmute into sharns? Or how they relate to phaerimms? I'm no master of the Crown Wars, but is it possible that the first Vyshaan to want Miyeritar were very subtly manipulated by phaerimm? And the dark elves of Myeritar were particularly affiliated with Le'Shay? Maybe receiving tutelage from them, in order to deal with the inevitable contact with the enemy. Maybe that could indicate even further that the phaerimm are an Elder Evil that probably caused the end of the Le'Shay reality. All conjecture of course...
MarkusTay63 01-20-08, 12:59 AM	Some of that was covered in the excellent Blackstaff novel by Steven Schend. Hopefully, we will get some answers to the Sharn question in his next novel, which I believed is called Blackstaff Tower.
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-20-08, 01:06 AM	Yeah, tomorrow I'm going to go out and buy the Blackstaff and Darkvision series.
Lord Karsus 01-20-08, 02:47 AM	Ah, my little Lord Karsus, you are finally realizing the breath and scope of TRUE evil... MINE. :devil: -Indeed...:looloo: First off, I'm not ret-conning ANYTHING, I am simply applying the 4e perspective on the lore we know (since it WILL have been in affect since the beginning of time, even though we are only learning these terms now). -That's what a retcon is. Overwriting the old with the new. Myth had an older meaning... in Eladrin. :eek: (do you HATE me yet?) -Give me one shred of lingual evidence to support that.
MarkusTay63 01-20-08, 01:05 PM	Ummmmm.. I just made it up? :confused: Since their is no 'Eladrin Language' as of right now, I can do stuff like that. :P And ret-conning means changing the lore, not re-defining it (at least in my eyes). As long as everything stays intact, you can slip all the new stuff 'between the cracks', as it were. Whatever I produce from now on, I'm going to do similar to what Brian did in his Moonshaes article - I'm going to use a few of the new terms and sprinkle them into the stuff we already know, and also use the new mechanics to help fix certain things that didn't quite make sense within the scope of the old rules (changing rules, not lore). Just like Brian did when he said the Moonshae Firbolgs had become corupted. ;)
Gray Richardson 01-20-08, 02:30 PM	I was always going to put a Ba'etith stronghold in the ruins of Delhumide. Read the write up in the Spellbound boxed set to see where I'm coming from.I went back and read the info on Delhumide in Spellbound, and I think that idea works splendidly. Do you think the artifact that Mikal Canos was searching for might have been a previously undiscovered copy of a Nether Scroll? Or possibly a whole chapter or even a third set of them? Or what if there were another chapter of scrolls on a completely different topic... one that was not included in the sets found in Anauroch?If "Arthindol" (his Netherese name, not his sarrukh name) was a member of the Ba'etith, who was his counterpart/comrade from Okoth ...? And what were they planning on doing?Well, I had always taken them to be followers of Mystryl, or maybe Lurue (who I believe was an aspect of Mystryl, or vice versa, as she was worshipped by the Fey peoples). Arthindol has always struck me as a "chosen". He does what chosen do, spreading magical knowledge. His longevity and commitment to promulgating the Art seem very archetypically chosen-esque qualities. The Ba'etith, we are told, compiled the collective magical knowledge not only of the Sarrukh, but also the magic systems of all the other races of Faerūn into a "Principia Magica", the Golden Scales of the World Serpent. This information was shared with various successor civilizations, and the organization recruited members from the Aearee and the Batrachi. I don't know if Mystryl was part of the Sarrukh pantheon, perhaps they were aware of her as an unmentioned god, deemphasized by the monotheistic elite. Or maybe the scholars who surveyed the magic of all the lesser races encountered Mystryl when researching the shamans of the primitive humans, or more likely encountered Lurue when researching the magic of the Fey creator race. Perhaps such an encounter led to a Sarrukh converting to Mystryl's faith and becoming a chosen. And just why are there references to phaerimm in both Netheril and Imaskar with seemingly no link?Well, I am troubled by this question. Do you think the formula for transforming into phaerimm is found within the Nether scrolls? Were the phaerimm caused by the Nether Scrolls, or were the Nether Scrolls compiled in response to the phaerimm? That is, are the phaerimm a group that the Ba'etith were formed in part to combat? Perhaps the Ba'etith are a little like the Harpers. Hmmm... curious. The Harpers are led by several of the chosen. Could the Harpers be the modern day legacy of the Ba'etith? Are "the Harpers" the modern day name for the Ba'etith? Is the history of the Harpers much, much older than we think? Or were the Harpers only a modern day organization founded by the Chosen in emulation of the principles of the Ba'etith? I am not sure if there is truly a connection there, but I think the question should be asked. And my final question: who were the first phaerimm?Well, two possibilities suggest themselves. Eric Boyd had suggested that the first phaerimm were contemporaries of Isstosseffifil. One candidate might have been Ss'thar'tiss'ssun, which was located in the Forest of Wyrms region (Serpent Kingdoms p. 54.) They were located near enough to Anauroch, and appear to have been small enough as a group to transform into a reasonable number of phaerimm that could war with Isstosseffifil. Another option is that a faction of Okoth itself could have transformed into the first phaerimms. Okoth fell around -34,100 DR, after a century of strife. Perhaps a faction of Okoth Sarrukh underwent the metamorphosis in response to the strife or the collapse of their empire. If so then this group of Phaerimm could have migrated into the Anauroch region and come into conflict with Isstosseffifil which caused the downfall of that empire in -33,800, only 3 centuries after the fall of Okoth. If so, then perhaps the formula for phaerimmization was discovered by the Imaskari while exploring the ruins of ancient Okoth. Hey, maybe that artifact that Mikal Canos was searching for beneath Delhumide had something to do with the phaerimm formula. I wonder if there is an expurgated book of the nether scrolls? Maybe the Nether scrolls orginially had 6 chapters, and the 6th chapter was separated from the two supposedly "complete" sets of Nether scrolls and hidden away. Like the gnostic books of the Bible. Lost apocrypha. If so, perhaps this hypothetical 6th chapter was a collection of the more abhorrent aspects of the Art. It might have included info about the phaerimm formula. Perhaps it also had info about the Shadow Weave. If so it might have been secreted away by Shar (or her own chosen) in order to keep Shar's secrets. Maybe Narfell had access to this 6th chapter, and used it to summon and compel powerful fiends. Although I suppose it need not have been a 6th chapter, but perhaps a rival document. A "Necronomicon" of sorts, prepared by a group opposed to the Ba'etith--Shar's own select chosen perhaps?. Or alternatively a group that split off from the Ba'etith when they wanted to include such dark knowledge in the Nether Scrolls for the sake of completeness, but were vetoed by the editing sensibilities of the rest of the group, who had decided that there were some dark secrets of magic that should not be promulgated. George, you always ask such great questions! ;)
Hawkfeather 01-20-08, 08:10 PM	"phaerimmization" I just loved this word!!
Vulpes 01-21-08, 12:09 AM	Imaskar: The Batrachi were known for their 'Portal magic' - this is one reason (their appearance being another) why I connect them to the far Realms and Pseudo-natural magic; it lends itself to 'warping' dimensional spaces very well. This fits with what we know about the Imaskari, and their love of Magical Gates. Later, the Imaskari became very adept at creating inter-dimensional space (demi-planes), something that the Elves are also very good at. At this point, it appears the Le'Shay have stepped-up and are helping Imaskar. To top it all of, we know that they were using some of this new magical-tech to imprison certain Pseudo-natural creatures, like Pandorym (the Far-Realms equivalent of an Arch-find). Maybe some of their earlier experimenrts were threatening to overwhelm them, and they found it nccessary to treat with the Fey and obtain their secrets, to stem the damage? But WERE the Batrachi known for portal magic? Or do we just assume they were because the Imaskari used stuff they found in their ruins to create the Bukhara Spheres? It seems to me that Imaskari probably took the fundamentals of portal creation from Batrachi ruins and just ran with it because dimensional magic appealed to them for some cultural reason. It may or may not be worth mentioning that they started using extradimensional spaces about two hundred years before they created the Bukhara Spheres, according to AGHotR. Yes sounds very likely, even more likely since the Batrachi used to be octopi like people which has an even more Far Realm feel to it. I read a passage on some thread about ancient Imaskari art work depicting Mizar and Leshay, with Imaskar trying to treat with both. Are phaerimm and mizar somehow related? Maybe the transformation was part of a bargain, one the Imaskari felt ended up back firing, thus asking the leshay for help? I do think it might be a mistake to automatically assume that just because the Batrachi were octopi that means they were connected to the Far Realm. Sometimes a tentacle is just a tentacle. As far as Mizar goes (and I was the one who brought up the relevant passage from Darkvision on another thread), no one except Bruce Cordell knows who or what that is as of right now, until and unless he slips it into 4E. Also, Mizar seems to come up at the very beginning of the Imaskari Empire, around -7950 DR, while the LeShay created the Imaskarcana for the Imaskari around -4000DR, so a direct link between Mizar, the phaerimm, and the LeShay seems somewhat unlikely.
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-21-08, 12:32 AM	Sometimes a tentacle is just a tentacle. Japanese school girls beg to differ! :P But we're just fishing here, we throw many theories to the air, see if anything falls on the right place... The more people participating, the better it'll be to discard the silly things and try to figure out the important parts.
Lord Karsus 01-21-08, 02:46 AM	Ummmmm.. I just made it up? :confused: Since their is no 'Eladrin Language' as of right now, I can do stuff like that. :P -And, as it has no basis in canon, well... And ret-conning means changing the lore, not re-defining it (at least in my eyes). -The two are synonymous. Retcon literally means 'Re-Continuity', or something to that effect, which includes outright changing lore (adding the Shadow Weave, for example), and redefining lore (Redefining Elven High Magic to better fit the Epic Magic system, for example).
Gray Richardson 01-21-08, 02:54 AM	But WERE the Batrachi known for portal magic? Or do we just assume they were because the Imaskari used stuff they found in their ruins to create the Bukhara Spheres? It seems to me that Imaskari probably took the fundamentals of portal creation from Batrachi ruins and just ran with it because dimensional magic appealed to them for some cultural reason. It may or may not be worth mentioning that they started using extradimensional spaces about two hundred years before they created the Bukhara Spheres, according to AGHotR.I agree with you strongly. I think the Imaskari were pretty ingenious and had a natural talent for portal magic that they mostly developed on their own. Although, GHotR indicates the Bukhara spires had big runes on them thought to be Batrachi in origin, so they might have found a few Batrachi portals and reverse engineered the "technology" and ran with it. Very little is known about the Batrachi, we don't have a lot of lore concerning them, although they must have been known enough to the elves to be counted among the creator races, so perhaps the elves knew a lot more about the Batrachi than has been revealed to us so far. But in addition to the runes on the Bukhara spires, we do know that a group of Batrachi that survived the Tearfall circa -31000 migrated to Limbo/aka Supreme Throne. So they definitely knew how to travel the planes.I do think it might be a mistake to automatically assume that just because the Batrachi were octopi that means they were connected to the Far Realm. Sometimes a tentacle is just a tentacle.I 100% agree with you there. I would caution against linking the Batrachi with the Far Realm. My own take on the aquatic creator race, was that when they were first an octopoid race living in the oceans, they were probably much like the Blue Ring Octopus and the Tako. Just an intelligent species of octopus, about the size of a humanoid, with some minor non-magical shape-changing abilities that developed from the same camouflage ability that most octopi have today. Specifically, I think they were a lot like the real-world Mimic Octopus (thaumoctopus mimicus) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimic_Octopus) that can do a stellar job of imitating the shapes of crabs, fish, sea-snakes, starfish, etc. an adaptation that is thought to allow it to scare off or appear unpalatable to predators. I do not think they were all that powerful a species, in fact I imagine them as fairly weak. Their advantage lay instead in their adaptability and cleverness and cooperation as social animals that allowed them to band together for protection, form societies, pass on accumulated knowledge to their offspring, become tool users, learn technology (and magic) and build undersea cities, developing much like the early humans did on the savannas of Africa. They probably were much like the modern day race called the Tako, although I imagine them somewhat smaller, probably about 6 to 8 feet long from head to tip of tentacles, and also I think they probably had 2 eyes instead of the Tako's one big eye. I don't know what caused the Tako to lose their eye. They may have been bred that way for some reason. I imagine they were bred as soldiers or brutes. But there is probably a nifty story to be told about how they lost their eye. The Tako probably tell myths about how they offended a god, or gave the eye in sacrifice for some boon, or lost it in a bet. Originally I think they had a large pantheon of aquatic gods who lived in the plane of Fated Depths. There is a reference in the Sea of Fallen Stars sourcebook to an aquatic pantheon known as the "Great School". I don't think they were originally evil. They probably reflected all sorts of attitudes and alignments. What is clear is that at some point, the worship of Ramenos became prominent. It is thought that Ramenos is an aspect of the World Serpent. I suspect that Ramenos originally fragmented from the World Serpent to serve as patron god for some aquatic minion created by the Sarrukh. I am thinking an aquatic yuan-ti or troglodyte variant, or intelligent sea-snakes or maybe Anguillians. The octopoid batrachi would have had contact with this sarrukh offshoot race, either through trade or possibly one or the other of them conquered the other and took them as slaves. For whatever reason, the cult of Ramenos grew within Batrachi society until it displaced the worship of their native gods. It was Ramenos who encouraged the metamorphosis into amphibious humanoids, giving them spines and legs with which to rise and conquer the land. GHotR mentions that they were transformed a second time by Ramenos when they fled to Limbo and adopted slaad-like forms. Not sure if this refers to Neraphim from the Planar Handbook, or something else that we haven't seen yet. Although GHotR indicates that Bazim-Gorag the fire-bringer does not consider himself a slaad lord but rather a batrachi lord, so the batrachi appear not to have become slaadi but rather something that is similar enough that people confuse the two. The octopoid batrachi that did not transform and follow Ramenos onto the land, the ones who stayed behind, remained in the ocean and are the ancestors of the Tako and perhaps the Blue Ring Octopus. A branch of this race later split off and began to dwell on land, becoming doppelgangers. They may or may not have been uplifted or assisted in this by experiments performed on them by their land-dwelling, froggy batrachi cousins, who might have been trying to force those who stayed behind in the oceans out onto the land. Or perhaps their intent was to create the perfect spies. All this to say that the Batrachi had a very interesting history in their own right that is not related to the Far Realm. :coolcthul
Lord Karsus 01-21-08, 02:58 AM	All this to say that the Batrachi had a very interesting history in their own right that is not related to the Far Realm. :coolcthul -Which is a welcome sight, lately.
MarkusTay63 01-21-08, 05:22 PM	Hmmmm... it appears I'm being out-lored here (outlawed?) I never said the Batrachi were from the Far Realms - what I was inferring was that when we apply 4e mechanics to the already existing lore (NOT ret-conning), then it makes sense that each of the Creator Races had a seperate 'Power Source'. We have only seen a sampling of this, so I don't know all the specifics involved, but what it means is that each race had a very different way of doing magic, and that each source of power would lend itself to different types (3e's schools) of spells. Keeping that in mind, then I would say that the Batrachi most likely used the 'Xoriat' power source (the one linked to the Far Realms). So far, it appears to me that each source of power under the new rules will be connected with a different plane, and the naturally mutenagenic qualities of the Far Realms pseodo-naturallness fits extremely well with the Batrachi, both physically, and magically. The Alienist is a good example of a 3e PrC that used this power source - and guess who's name is on the credits? Rich Baker... ;) The Fey power source naturally derives from the Feywild, and is used by the Le'Shay (who we are pretty sure are the Fey Creator race now, or at least their decendents). Not sure about the others - The Elemental Tempest (Elemental power source?) seems a good fit for the aeraee, with descriptions of violent storms and lightening usually being associated with AIR. The Sarruhk are a tough call - given that the only 'biggie' left is the Umbral (shadowfell) power source, I would say they used that. however, I don't see their magic being very close to that - they were all about 'tainting' creratures, but it was more along the lines of reptilian, not shadow, so that ones a bit of a stretch. Unless humans were supposed to get Shadow, but I picture them more using the Arcane power source. Not sure what they are going to link that too - perhaps the Prime material itself? Oh... and then there's the Divine. :thinks: So we have five Creator races, and Five Main sources of Power - it just fits together a little too neatly to ignore. So perhaps the Nether Scrolls had four pages on each type of magic, or maybe, as Gray suggested, there were really 25 pages to a set, and five were 'forgotten' (and hidden/lost). Although I prefer the idea of a rogue-sect of the Ba'etith - maybe they were developing the Shadow-magic, and that would mean that the Sarrukh had Arcane... and humans had Divine? Hmmmm... that might work... I also love the idea of a third set of scrolls (the copper ones), that belonged to the Batrachi part of the group - after all, the Sarrukh had the Golden skins for themselves. ;) I've gave some lore regarding that over at CK, awhile back - The Ba'etith ["In the final days of the Sarrukh, they gathered together their greatest scholars and tried to come up with some plan to save their species. They met with representatives of the Batrachi and the Aearee, races that were also threatened by extinction. The three pondered their dilema, and came up with a final solution. Their peoples would abandon Abeir-Toril for other 'timeless' planes, until such a time when these new races fell by the wayside and the Creators could return and rule once more. To this end they gathered their greatest scholars, led by the Terraseer, and created a hidden sanctuary away from prying eyes, there to work on a collection of the most powerful magical lore ever seen. The remainder of these races then left - The Aearee finding comfort in the open spaces of the Astral, the Sarruhk enjoying the misty darkness of the Ethereal, and the Batrachi were left with settling Limbo. There, these races could hide away in the timeless emptines of those planes, awaiting the call to return. In the interrum, the Terraseer organized the scholars of the three races into research groups, and began work on the collection of Lore that would later become known as the Nether scrolls. There were to be three sets, one for each race - a gold for the Sarruhk, a Silver for the Aearee, and a copper set for the Batrachi. As the sets neared completion, the Batrachi scholars realized that the sarruhk never intended the other two races to recieve their copies and allow their races to return, and so they fled far to the East and away from the plotting Sarruhk. The Sarruhk, for their part, became enraged, and killed the remaining Aearee sages. And so it was, but none of the races realized that their long lost people had evolved into other forms, and were no longer awaiting the call to return..."
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-21-08, 07:13 PM	Well, thats why I named the thread "Wonderings" about Imaskar. It started with a half-assed (mine) attempt to make sense of what lore I had available to me. Now its turned to a great thread, with good insights and questions, even to Loremasters. Being that so much about the subject is undetermined, it really is like fishing, throw baits on certain spots and see if anything bites. So don't feel like you're being "out-lored" or anything, you're just learning new facts and perspectives. Your idea in regards to the Batrachi is as good as any, being that they are such enigmatic figures. The true wise men are the ones that realize how ignorant they really are. Edit: That being said, I agree with Gray that we shouldn't so readily discard the ingenuity of humans, after all, look what we've wrought without (??) any assistance of other planes!
Vulpes 01-22-08, 12:05 AM	But in addition to the runes on the Bukhara spires, we do know that a group of Batrachi that survived the Tearfall circa -31000 migrated to Limbo/aka Supreme Throne. So they definitely knew how to travel the planes. Oh, they definitely knew something of the planes and dimensional magic. But, really, it seems like any race that develops any affinity and aptitude for magic knows at least the basics of dimensional magic. The Imaskari seemed to have gotten a leg-up via scavenging Batrachi ruins, but they seem to have taken to it and developed it to unequaled heights all on their own. Your speculation on the evolution of the Batrachi seem completely spot-on to me, BTW. Good work! Edit: That being said, I agree with Gray that we shouldn't so readily discard the ingenuity of humans, after all, look what we've wrought without (??) any assistance of other planes! Just want to agree. I mean, look at Netheril: sure they had a lot of help from the Nether Scrolls and the Terraseer, but what they accomplished is still extraordinary.
MarkusTay63 01-22-08, 02:25 AM	Committing genocide on Orcs, enslaving Gnomes, enhilating the folk of the land of Alabastor Towers (Thaeravel) to steal their magic, drummed out of Arcane Space for performing 'vivasectionist' experiments on other sentients, killing the Goddess of Magic and destroying millions in the process... Extraodinary?! :uh-huh: I suppose thats one way of looking at it. I think little demons and devil kids are taught about Netheril as an example of what good 'fiendish' behaviour should be. Three of there Archwizards still survive as the most powerful liches in the Realms. Oh yeah... and they gave us Shade. :bored:
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 04:48 AM	Oh yeah... and they gave us Shade. :bored: -Yeah...Sorry about that one...How was I supposed to know they'd become such :censored:s though?
18DELTA 01-22-08, 11:08 AM	-Yeah I am really starting to feel like Shar and her cronies are starting to OVERSHADOW my 10th level uber PC!!!! Phat Lewt!1!1!1!1:rolleyes: LORD DIRTY DELTA;) :P :D
Gray Richardson 01-22-08, 11:59 AM	Committing genocide on Orcs, enslaving Gnomes, enhilating the folk of the land of Alabastor Towers (Thaeravel) to steal their magic, drummed out of Arcane Space for performing 'vivasectionist' experiments on other sentients, killing the Goddess of Magic and destroying millions in the process...No doubt that some of the Netherese performed atrocities. However, I think it is overly simplistic to view the Netherese, as a whole, in any one particular way. They were a society of individuals. Strong willed individuals, who had many and varied pursuits. They have a lot in common with the city states of classical Greece, each enclave ruling itself as it saw fit and pursuing its own agendas. But, just like Sparta and Athens were very different from each other in character and temperament, so too do you find a broad spectrum of alignments among the Netherese enclaves. For instance, Selunarra appears to have been a much more beneficent city than Shade. The arcanists of Netheril were somewhat like the industrialists and robber-barons of 19th century American free market capitalism. Some used their great power to dominate and exploit people and resources in the rapacious pursuit of accumulating more power. But other arcanists used their great power to fund grand public works, spread knowledge, and aspire to create utopian societies in their floating cities. What is notable about the Netherese is not so much the amount of evil in their society but rather the degree. The Netherese did not do anything small, so when they did do evil, they did it in a big way. Such extravagance has only been compounded by the magnifying glass of history. Netheril will be remembered for its great acts of evil, hubris and folly, much better than for its grand ideals and charitable works. But I think it way too easy to generalize in characterizing as "evil" what was really a complex and nuanced society that was neither wholly evil nor wholly good.
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-22-08, 06:59 PM	I was always going to put a Ba'etith stronghold in the ruins of Delhumide. Read the write up in the Spellbound boxed set to see where I'm coming from. If "Arthindol" (his Netherese name, not his sarrukh name) was a member of the Ba'etith, who was his counterpart/comrade from Okoth ...? And what were they planning on doing? And just why are there references to phaerimm in both Netheril and Imaskar with seemingly no link? And my final question: who were the first phaerimm? -- George Krashos While I don't have access to the Spellbound boxed set, is this in relation to the Red Wizards' sack of that city? Because if there was an Ba'etith stronghold in Delhumide, and the Red Wizards got their hands on its contents, it could explain their rise to power.
Vulpes 01-23-08, 12:29 AM	Committing genocide on Orcs, enslaving Gnomes, enhilating the folk of the land of Alabastor Towers (Thaeravel) to steal their magic, drummed out of Arcane Space for performing 'vivasectionist' experiments on other sentients, killing the Goddess of Magic and destroying millions in the process... Extraodinary?! :uh-huh: I suppose thats one way of looking at it. I think little demons and devil kids are taught about Netheril as an example of what good 'fiendish' behaviour should be. Three of there Archwizards still survive as the most powerful liches in the Realms. Oh yeah... and they gave us Shade. :bored: I would not excuse or condone the many very bad and evil things Netheril did. But, as Gray said, Netheril was a complex place filled with complex people with a lot of power and an individualist streak a mile wide. It also endured a number of centuries over which time it changed (they eventually freed the gnomes, for instance). Karsus is the one who killed Mystryl and killed millions, not Netheril as a whole. And Iolaum and Larloch may be lichs, but they pretty much keep to themselves and aren't out trying to conquer the world like Szass Tam and Manshoon, say. Ed Greenwood has also indicated that there are other Netherese survivors who, if not good, then neutral enough not to be terribly pleased with Shade's return or plotting to bring evil into the world. Anyway, though, I was using "extraordinary" to describe their magical achievements, not their moral ones. (Frankly, if we went by moral achievements, maybe Luruar and Cormyr, and then only at certain times in their history, could be said to be "extraordinary." The Realms is definitely like the real world in that it's not very often a nice place at all.) It's the same with Imaskar: I wouldn't call abducting tens of thousands of people from their homeworld to use as slaves and cutting them off from their gods terribly good, but you can't consider the sheer technical and arcane mastery those acts took to be anything less than awe-inspiring. I'll agree with you about Shade, though. Boooooooooooring! *LOL*