Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BrennonGoldeye 10-03-07, 08:32 PM	I would like to start this with thanks to Zandilar, who seemed to be the one person who got at least 80% of the question. Mi'Lady. ;) Note that the reference to the GHoTR kinda precludes the whole 4th Edition thing. Speaking of 4th, get over it folks. It's gonna happen. It's happened several times before, and all of you that stomp off in a fit are only hurting yourselves. So anyway.... I speak of Mystra, this being a board about the FR. I apologize to my fellow posters who don't have English as a 1st language. My pigeoning caused trouble. Now, I will rephrase. I would like to contrast opinions upon the death of Midnight. How about the apparent new Triad. Sune anyone?(Have I got a theory for you!) Maybe now the kids and grandkids quote makes a bit of sense, at least to those who know the time-line equation. So, let's start this again. P.S.- Boy I missed you guys.:love:
Storm_Silverhand 10-03-07, 10:40 PM	Heya, Note that the reference to the GHoTR kinda precludes the whole 4th Edition thing. Speaking of 4th, get over it folks. It's gonna happen. It's happened several times before, and all of you that stomp off in a fit are only hurting yourselves. So anyway.... Let me get this straight right away. When 4e Dungeons and Dragons was announced, I was quite excited. I have no problem with them upgrading the basic game because, frankly, Role Playing is not about what rule set you're using, but what you do at the table. I have run an 8 hour session of DnD without a single dice roll - the system is not all that important, IMHO, and my excitement over the new rules system is because I like a change sometimes. :) I speak of Mystra, this being a board about the FR. I apologize to my fellow posters who don't have English as a 1st language. My pigeoning caused trouble. Now, I will rephrase. I would like to contrast opinions upon the death of Midnight. How about the apparent new Triad. Sune anyone?(Have I got a theory for you!) Maybe now the kids and grandkids quote makes a bit of sense, at least to those who know the time-line equation. So, let's start this again. My main problem with the death of Midnight at the moment is that it is rather unbelievable. It's not that Shar or Cyric wouldn't have done it, they almost certainly would given half a chance, it's the way that they went about it. In order for Mystra to not realize the danger she was in and have no defenses, Shar would have had to block every single deity with clerics or other spell casters... In short, she'd have had to block the senses of just about every single deity in the Realms (good and evil, since not all evil deities are in cahoots with Shar, and some of them would realize what a set back the spellplague would be for their worshipers and thus their own power). Perhaps if it turns out that the plot backfires and that both Cyric and Shar suffer major setbacks because of what they did, then I'll be happier (but not completely happy, since I'd rather we keep Mystra and her Chosen). (Note: imprisoning Cyric for 1000 years is not a sufficient punishment/setback for him... And hey, one other thought... If Savras was destroyed in the backlash of Mystra's destruction, why wasn't Cyric?) As for Sune, Tyr, Helm, Tymora, and the rest of that debacle... Cyric is supposedly behind it, but I have a hard time believing that he could manipulate Sune on issues of love, Tyr on issues of justice, or Helm on issues of protection/guardianship. For a start, arranging a loveless political marriage is not in character for Sune, agreeing to a loveless political marriage is not in character for Tymora, and fighting over a loveless political marriage is not in character for Tyr or Helm. Tymora is a very powerful Intermediate Deity, she's only 2 DvRs behind Sune (who is a Greater Deity) - Siamorphe is a minor Demideity... The exchange (Tymora for Siamorphe) is not balanced in the least. On the other hand, I can easily see Siamorphe perhaps defecting to Brightwater - decadence and wealth is definitely something associated with nobles - something Brightwater has in abundance because of deities the likes of Sune, Sharess, Lliira, and Waukeen. Lastly, I don't blame Ilmater one bit for defecting after he saw one of his best friends killing another deity over such an idiotic matter.
johnkretzer 10-04-07, 12:57 AM	Heya, Let me get this straight right away. When 4e Dungeons and Dragons was announced, I was quite excited. I have no problem with them upgrading the basic game because, frankly, Role Playing is not about what rule set you're using, but what you do at the table. I have run an 8 hour session of DnD without a single dice roll - the system is not all that important, IMHO, and my excitement over the new rules system is because I like a change sometimes. :) My main problem with the death of Midnight at the moment is that it is rather unbelievable. It's not that Shar or Cyric wouldn't have done it, they almost certainly would given half a chance, it's the way that they went about it. In order for Mystra to not realize the danger she was in and have no defenses, Shar would have had to block every single deity with clerics or other spell casters... In short, she'd have had to block the senses of just about every single deity in the Realms (good and evil, since not all evil deities are in cahoots with Shar, and some of them would realize what a set back the spellplague would be for their worshipers and thus their own power). Perhaps if it turns out that the plot backfires and that both Cyric and Shar suffer major setbacks because of what they did, then I'll be happier (but not completely happy, since I'd rather we keep Mystra and her Chosen). (Note: imprisoning Cyric for 1000 years is not a sufficient punishment/setback for him... And hey, one other thought... If Savras was destroyed in the backlash of Mystra's destruction, why wasn't Cyric?) As for Sune, Tyr, Helm, Tymora, and the rest of that debacle... Cyric is supposedly behind it, but I have a hard time believing that he could manipulate Sune on issues of love, Tyr on issues of justice, or Helm on issues of protection/guardianship. For a start, arranging a loveless political marriage is not in character for Sune, agreeing to a loveless political marriage is not in character for Tymora, and fighting over a loveless political marriage is not in character for Tyr or Helm. Tymora is a very powerful Intermediate Deity, she's only 2 DvRs behind Sune (who is a Greater Deity) - Siamorphe is a minor Demideity... The exchange (Tymora for Siamorphe) is not balanced in the least. On the other hand, I can easily see Siamorphe perhaps defecting to Brightwater - decadence and wealth is definitely something associated with nobles - something Brightwater has in abundance because of deities the likes of Sune, Sharess, Lliira, and Waukeen. Lastly, I don't blame Ilmater one bit for defecting after he saw one of his best friends killing another deity over such an idiotic matter. That pretty much sums up my opinion as well...as a matter of fact I think everyone who disagrees with these events feels very much the same about it. We just can't set this right with prexisting lore.
Fire_Wraith 10-04-07, 01:59 AM	I agree - though I will grant, that for the sake of argument, it is difficult to make a complete explanation in such a brief format as has been released thus far. I will therefore grant that it is possible that the full explanation is a bit more believable, but I'm dubious, overall. Quality of the explanation aside, the result itself really leaves me feeling shortchanged. Mystra is merely the foremost of an overly large number of gods who apparently will be significantly altered or removed, for what seems to be more reasons of structural alteration, rather than something that arose naturally from the storyline. I don't object to a god or npc dying, if it makes sense for them to do so, even if I may wish they didn't. Personally, if the designers feel they need to remove deities or npcs from the Realms, I would greatly prefer they use less drastic/permanent means. Long-standing heroes of the Realms (and some villains) deserve a better fate than rampant death - how about a nice retirement somewhere? After all, someone has to run the Inns... :D To draw the parallel of the changes made to Dragonlance, I had less objection to the notion of moving on to new stories and new characters, than I did to the feeling that all of my old favorite heroes and parts of the setting were going to get slaughtered first. As for gods, well... gods don't generally retire to run lodging establishments, but there are other ways for them to be moved out of the active picture, without declaring them killed off utterly. The lesser deities can be left out of the main book, and a separate, optional book can detail them (and what happened to them) later on, for those who are interested. Lastly, for those being changed, there's not much I can say, save to plead to either minimize such changes, or not to make them at all. As for Mystra, if she must die, then let her be replaced by a new Mystra, just as she replaced her own predecessor. There would likely still be a horrible trauma to the magical weave, and to the world, but we could still retain the general feel of something that has been a core part of the Realms since the First Edition boxed set.
Zanan 10-04-07, 04:44 AM	Just a triple of points ... - Rules are fine, for they make RPG in a setting possible. Changing a setting to fit the rules isn't fine, for it looks as if a lot of setting lore goes out of the window. - Mystra's Death. Hypothizing on how it happened and what may happen afterwards is a neat way of getting through the day. Yet, we have no clue whatsoever about the day afterwards. There could well be a week of mayhem, before the contingency plan gets into motion and Mystra reforms. as much as the Wizards have decided on 4E, they have decided about the new FR panthei. Just wait and see ... or as Brennon said, get over it. ;) - Mystra's death ... I wonder what this Spellplague will do to the carefully reconstructed Shadovar cities flying about. I mean, Paul S. Kemp spins a glorious tale on Cale and Rivalen and Sembia and next year it appears to go bust? Very strange. (Same with the Thay series.)
Fabius Maximus 10-04-07, 07:40 AM	The Netheril cities probably float on the Shadow Weave now. Perhaps Mystra's death was deliberate again? Shar wants the Weave, right? By letting it shatter and sending a tiny divine (arcane?) spark to every arcanist on Toril, Mystra effectivly prevents Shar from taking over, but causes the Spellplague.
Storm_Silverhand 10-04-07, 07:54 AM	Heya, The Netheril cities probably float on the Shadow Weave now. The Weave and the Shadow Weave are intrinsically linked. Mystra, surprisingly enough, almost certainly is the physical embodiment of both (the Weave is the arteries, and the Shadow Weave the veins, as Ed Greenwood put it). Shar only controls access to the Shadow Weave. (Yes, I know there is at least one early Realms 3e source that says Shar created the Shadow Weave, but that has subsequently been put into question by other sources, most notably Ed Greenwood himself.) If what we have surmised is correct, that when Mystra dies for the final time so does the Weave, we must also understand that the Shadow Weave will be destroyed as well. Shar won't be destroyed, since it wasn't a part of her, or her portfolio... Also, most of her clergy still probably used the Weave, so she will be effected in some measure, as will the rest of the Pantheon for the same reason. Perhaps Mystra's death was deliberate again? Shar wants the Weave, right? By letting it shatter and sending a tiny divine (arcane?) spark to every arcanist on Toril, Mystra effectivly prevents Shar from taking over, but causes the Spellplague. This is what I'm thinking. It's a case of "you can't have the Weave, and I'll destroy it so you can't have it!" (Though I think just the destruction of the Weave is enough to cause the Spellplague.) It really is the only explanation that fits... I really doubt that we'll see another Mystra in the Realms in 4e, sad as that is to say. One other thing I was musing on about this, there are some things set up in novels that we won't ever see now... Like Laeral and her children in Blackstaff... This almost certainly won't come to full fruition, especially if Laeral is killed... I don't see why they'd make an exception for her children.
Alediran 10-04-07, 08:45 AM	One other thing I was musing on about this, there are some things set up in novels that we won't ever see now... Like Laeral and her children in Blackstaff... This almost certainly won't come to full fruition, especially if Laeral is killed... I don't see why they'd make an exception for her children. That's one of the main things that bothers me if they do a big jump in the timeline, what will happen to those characters who are still waiting for their stories to be told.
Red_Wizard 10-04-07, 10:54 AM	I'm mainly curious how one justifies imprisoning the God of Murder, for Murdering someone.
Fabius Maximus 10-04-07, 11:44 AM	The Weave and the Shadow Weave are intrinsically linked. Doesn't Magic of Faerūn state the exact opposite? That the Shadow weave will continue to exist if the Weave ever fails? If what we have surmised is correct, that when Mystra dies for the final time so does the Weave, we must also understand that the Shadow Weave will be destroyed as well. Shar won't be destroyed, since it wasn't a part of her, or her portfolio... Also, most of her clergy still probably used the Weave, so she will be effected in some measure, as will the rest of the Pantheon for the same reason. In "The Merging of Two Worlds" thread I wrote about the possibility that the new world is the Shadow Plane, and that after Mystra's death shadow weavers will draw upon the essence of shadow directly. Maybe Shar's clerics all converted shortly before the Spellplague sets in? I know my Archivist did that recently. ;) This is what I'm thinking. It's a case of "you can't have the Weave, and I'll destroy it so you can't have it!" (Though I think just the destruction of the Weave is enough to cause the Spellplague.) It really is the only explanation that fits... I really doubt that we'll see another Mystra in the Realms in 4e, sad as that is to say. Well, somehow arcane spellcasters have to go on to cast their spells. Drawing upon raw magic is supposed to be dangerous (see Spellfire). An "internal mini-weave" could be a way to circumvent that. I'm mainly curious how one justifies imprisoning the God of Murder, for Murdering someone. He killed another greater goddess, and one who's very important to who the world works. He upset the balance of the multiverse through that. That's also the reason why he wasn't killed in turn. They'd have to replace him.
Alediran 10-04-07, 12:01 PM	Doesn't Magic of Faerūn state the exact opposite? That the Shadow weave will continue to exist if the Weave ever fails? That old piece if illogic has been retconed several times since it's publication. The Shadow Weave will fall if the Weave does.
Red_Wizard 10-04-07, 01:14 PM	He killed another greater goddess, and one who's very important to who the world works. He upset the balance of the multiverse through that. That's also the reason why he wasn't killed in turn. They'd have to replace him. He also has the portfolio of Strife, so again not outside of what he is charged with doing. ;) They kind of have to pick one or the other. He can do his job, or he doesn't, but he can't do both. Both options however seem to lead to a trial/ conviction of some sort against him.
Lord Karsus 10-04-07, 01:25 PM	That old piece if illogic has been retconed several times since it's publication. The Shadow Weave will fall if the Weave does. -Can't anyone make up their minds? -Personally, I am of the opinion that the Shadow Weave should not 'unravel' if the Weave ceased to exist. We do not know the origins of the Shadow Weave. It could have been created by Shar specifically to be the inverse of the Weave. It could simply exist in the 'cracks' of the Weave because both can't exist in the same 'space' at the same time. Until I see a definitive origin, which there isn't...
johnkretzer 10-04-07, 03:27 PM	I'm mainly curious how one justifies imprisoning the God of Murder, for Murdering someone. Um he was locked up by Tyr the god of Justice...how does one justifies that the God of Jystice wouldn't do something to a criminal...though I think he got off very lightly.
msatran 10-04-07, 03:30 PM	Well, IF it's a cosmic level setup, and Cyric turns out to NOT be guilty, a divine murder mystery would be an EXCELLENT novel. No one's ever tried to write something like that, and I would love Wizards to dare me to do it.
GothicDan 10-04-07, 03:53 PM	That sounds like the Trial of Cyric the Mad. But I'd rather have Msatran write it.
Fabius Maximus 10-04-07, 06:40 PM	That old piece if illogic has been retconed several times since it's publication. The Shadow Weave will fall if the Weave does. Where? I mean, I would like that, because it makes sense. But I have read nothing that counters that passage.
Lord Karsus 10-04-07, 06:56 PM	Where? I mean, I would like that, because it makes sense. But I have read nothing that counters that passage. -Ed has mentioned it a few times, but on this issue, his advice is nothing more than that- advice and his own personal feelings. However, I believe that in the new superadventure, it has been stated in canon that this is now the case.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-04-07, 10:48 PM	Speaking of 4th, get over it folks. It's gonna happen. I don't understand the reasoning behind this statement, yet people use it all the time anyway. Because "it will happen no matter what", that means we shouldn't bother to talk about it? Why? This is a forum. The whole point is to give our opinions. And sometimes, people need to vent and feel solidarity with others who feel the same way they do. It's happened several times before, and all of you that stomp off in a fit are only hurting yourselves. Who said? If I decide not to buy hardcover books that I don't want, I certainly don't think my wallet will be hurting for it. The "it's happened several times before" statement kind of misses the point with me. For the length of time I've "been with" the Realms (and that's only been 6-7 years--not nearly as long as some other people) I've put up with quite a lot. I've been upset with certain RSEs for a while now, so it's not like my anger has just come out of the blue. It's been building up for a time, now, and not too long ago a single straw finally broke the camel's back. PS: Just to clarify, it's the changes in the Realms setting for 4E that I'm upset about, NOT the new set of rules.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-04-07, 10:55 PM	I'm mainly curious how one justifies imprisoning the God of Murder, for Murdering someone. If Cyric has the "right" to murder deities because he's an evil god of murder, than the goodly deities who are interested in punishing evil have the "right" to punish him.
Fire_Wraith 10-05-07, 12:30 AM	PS: Just to clarify, it's the changes in the Realms setting for 4E that I'm upset about, NOT the new set of rules. Agreed. I'd be quite willing to change to a new set of rules. I wouldn't even mind changes to the realms, even a few drastic ones, if I felt that things were not going to go beyond my level of tolerance for such things. I've gone through the Time of Troubles, and all the changes since then, and it hasn't bothered me. Changes in other worlds, such as the huge changes made to Dragonlance, bothered me to the point that I quit having anything to do with that gameworld. I don't want to see that happen to the Realms. I accept that some changes will happen. What I ask is that they take into account what a number of the players want, and at least give us a few concessions so we don't feel left out in the cold, unwelcome in what feels like an unfamiliar world being called by a familiar name. To that end, I'll happily offer such suggestions, within the limits of my (currently limited) understanding of what the designers want to accomplish, and how they have stated they plan to do it, and encourage others to do likewise.
Rauric 10-05-07, 12:33 AM	Heya, The Weave and the Shadow Weave are intrinsically linked. Mystra, surprisingly enough, almost certainly is the physical embodiment of both (the Weave is the arteries, and the Shadow Weave the veins, as Ed Greenwood put it). Shar only controls access to the Shadow Weave. (Yes, I know there is at least one early Realms 3e source that says Shar created the Shadow Weave, but that has subsequently been put into question by other sources, most notably Ed Greenwood himself.) If what we have surmised is correct, that when Mystra dies for the final time so does the Weave, we must also understand that the Shadow Weave will be destroyed as well. Shar won't be destroyed, since it wasn't a part of her, or her portfolio... Also, most of her clergy still probably used the Weave, so she will be effected in some measure, as will the rest of the Pantheon for the same reason. This is what I'm thinking. It's a case of "you can't have the Weave, and I'll destroy it so you can't have it!" (Though I think just the destruction of the Weave is enough to cause the Spellplague.) It really is the only explanation that fits... I really doubt that we'll see another Mystra in the Realms in 4e, sad as that is to say. One other thing I was musing on about this, there are some things set up in novels that we won't ever see now... Like Laeral and her children in Blackstaff... This almost certainly won't come to full fruition, especially if Laeral is killed... I don't see why they'd make an exception for her children. Perhaps the kids will be the new Iconic NPCs. Maybe there will be whole new batch of NPCs that are just midlevels.
Storm_Silverhand 10-05-07, 03:28 AM	Heya, Perhaps the kids will be the new Iconic NPCs. Maybe there will be whole new batch of NPCs that are just midlevels. Heh. We can hope. And I wouldn't mind finding new NPCs to become attached to, and would even be pleased to find them lower level (makes it easier to have PCs meet up and adventure/interact with them)... However (as can be seen by my change in screen name and sig), I'm a big fan of many characters that are going to be directly effected by this. In the event of a 100 year jump, mortal NPCs will be dead, while the immortal ones seem to be on the chopping block. I'd prefer it if they put them on the shelf and let me bring them back down, dust them off to play with them. (If the jump is 100 years, I don't mind the mortal ones succumbing to old age - that is how it works, after all, but I'll still be sad at their loss.) (My biggest problem is actually the Sune/Tymora/Tyr/Helm thing... but I suspect that might be easy enough to retcon away in my continuity, depending on how they do it.) I just want to restate here, I am looking forward to 4e. I'm excited about it, and can't wait until I actually have the PHB in my hands next July (it is July, isn't it?).
Mr. Wilson 10-05-07, 03:33 AM	i thought the PHB was going to be in our hands by May, DMG by June, and MM in July so they'd be set for Gen-Con in August.
Jhalad 10-05-07, 04:16 AM	All this comes down to one basic problem. For some reason I don't understand, game designers think that th eonly way they can make worlds interesting is to completely destroy them and then rebuild them. This is what is happening in the Realms. Poof, instant reset. Doesn't matter that it was Mystra that died, along with others. Just that the end result is a world wide magical nuke which "completely remakes the known world and ushers in a dark new age..." or something like that.
Zanan 10-05-07, 04:22 AM	If Cyric has the "right" to murder deities because he's an evil god of murder, than the goodly deities who are interested in punishing evil have the "right" to punish him. You still wonder though how he will manage to sneak up to a greater goddess in her own backyard. :rolleyes:
Fabius Maximus 10-05-07, 07:17 AM	Because she lets it happen?
Red_Wizard 10-05-07, 09:38 AM	Um he was locked up by Tyr the god of Justice...how does one justifies that the God of Jystice wouldn't do something to a criminal...though I think he got off very lightly. If Cyric has the "right" to murder deities because he's an evil god of murder, than the goodly deities who are interested in punishing evil have the "right" to punish him. Yes but you are both missing the obvious fact that he didn't break the cosmic law. He was well within his right as owner of the portfolios Strife and Murder to kill her, and despite Murder being a punishable mortal crime, as the deity of such he should get off scot free. Had any of the other gods done it, it would have made perfect sense to imprison them, and I'd be right along side you stating such. Not Cyric though.
Zanan 10-05-07, 09:43 AM	Because she lets it happen? I think I'll wait till I see that story in print. On hindsight, it would have been a great idea to put the publishing date of TGHotR back to the ascendance of 4E, at least a month or two short of the FRCS.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 10:06 AM	And as god of justice, Tyr has the divine right to... Well, do a whole lot of things in the name of justice, provided its sincere, and (it seems) as long as there's a significant divine force backing him (such as a 'trial' of Gods, as has been the case with Cyric twice now). I actually am really liking the trial idea with Tyr as arbiter. It feels rather Greek to me.
Red_Wizard 10-05-07, 10:48 AM	Maybe it'd make a good story. I'd definitely pick it up. But I can't see a trial holding any ground. What argument could you make knowing what we do now, to justify imprisoning Cyric? I can't think of one at the moment.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 12:46 PM	Because Tyr, and many other powerful Gods, feel that murder is 'wrong' in an ethical sense.
Lord Toast 10-05-07, 12:51 PM	You know, I find it humorous that Savras, the god of seers & diviners, didn't see this coming.:)
SgtAnjay 10-05-07, 01:00 PM	Maybe it'd make a good story. I'd definitely pick it up. But I can't see a trial holding any ground. What argument could you make knowing what we do now, to justify imprisoning Cyric? I can't think of one at the moment. Tyr is lord of justice; he doesn't need someone to tell him what is justice, anymore than Sune needs someone to tell her what is love, or Cyric needs someone to tell him what is a lie or what is a murder. If his portfolio should let Cyric murder, then the justice portfolio lets Tyr punish the guilty. Murder breaks down law, is evil, and is unjust to the person murdered because they did not to deserve death (hence why its murder). Murder and justice are naturally opposed, and if a god of justice doesn't fight against murder, then they are not following their portfolio. Even if Tyr didn't want to oppose Cyric, which is not the case, he is duty bound as justice to do it. He has to.By convening a trial scenario, he is assuring that his own bias does not make his actions unjust by making sure Cyric did something the recipient didn't deserve, and is thus unjust. Mystra and Savras having their lives cut short by murder was unjust. It wasn't fair that Azuth and Velsharoon were blasted to the astral. And the parties innocent to this entire sequence of events, which compose absolutely everyone in the entire cosmology of Faerun, did nothing to deserve the misery of the spellplague; that they had to go through it, therefore, was unjust.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 01:10 PM	And remember, all of what Sgt points out applies to the logic and justice of the world and its inhabitants - not AO's laws. Tyr and his council is Justice. AO is more like the tyrant who lets each deity micromanage a bit of the world.
Lord Karsus 10-05-07, 01:11 PM	You know, I find it humorous that Savras, the god of seers & diviners, didn't see this coming.:) -Maybe he did, and just wanted to be put of of his misery? Imagine having to live with Mystra, Azuth and Velsharoon!
GothicDan 10-05-07, 01:13 PM	Living with Azuth would be bad for my ego. I'M the Archmage around. Living with Mystra would be uncomfortable. Girls are gross. Living with Velsharoon would be even grosser. My last big Necromancer character was a super-sterile Silvanesti Elf who preserved all of his Undead, used magic to eliminate odors, clothed them (if they were Elves), etc. He was working on making his own 'Undying Court,' basically, a la Eberron.
Red_Wizard 10-05-07, 02:17 PM	Tyr is lord of justice; he doesn't need someone to tell him what is justice, anymore than Sune needs someone to tell her what is love, or Cyric needs someone to tell him what is a lie or what is a murder. If his portfolio should let Cyric murder, then the justice portfolio lets Tyr punish the guilty. Murder breaks down law, is evil, and is unjust to the person murdered because they did not to deserve death (hence why its murder). Murder and justice are naturally opposed, and if a god of justice doesn't fight against murder, then they are not following their portfolio. Even if Tyr didn't want to oppose Cyric, which is not the case, he is duty bound as justice to do it. He has to.By convening a trial scenario, he is assuring that his own bias does not make his actions unjust by making sure Cyric did something the recipient didn't deserve, and is thus unjust. Mystra and Savras having their lives cut short by murder was unjust. It wasn't fair that Azuth and Velsharoon were blasted to the astral. And the parties innocent to this entire sequence of events, which compose absolutely everyone in the entire cosmology of Faerun, did nothing to deserve the misery of the spellplague; that they had to go through it, therefore, was unjust. He is worshiped by mortals who strive for order, and use him as an example of what they wish to be, however he is not there to uphold, support, or abide by mortal notions of good, evil and right and wrong. He is there to punish those who break the rules, as they are set down by Ao. Cyric was tried for Innocence by way of insanity. He was charge with NOT preforming his duty of sowing Strife, and supporting murder outside of his church. The "law" of the gods therefore is that they must put into practise, and support their portfolios. By THOSE laws, not the faulty mortal ones, he must be held to. Therefore by those very laws, he is innocent, and cannot be punished. It doesn't matter what you think the law should be, or what is right and wrong on Toril. They are not held to "our" ideals. So as I said, given what we know, there is no valid case that can be made.
Alediran 10-05-07, 02:27 PM	He is worshiped by mortals who strive for order, and use him as an example of what they wish to be, however he is not there to uphold, support, or abide by mortal notions of good, evil and right and wrong. He is there to punish those who break the rules, as they are set down by Ao. Cyric was tried for Innocence by way of insanity. He was charge with NOT preforming his duty of sowing Strife, and supporting murder outside of his church. The "law" of the gods therefore is that they must put into practise, and support their portfolios. By THOSE laws, not the faulty mortal ones, he must be held to. Therefore by those very laws, he is innocent, and cannot be punished. It doesn't matter what you think the law should be, or what is right and wrong on Toril. They are not held to "our" ideals. So as I said, given what we know, there is no valid case that can be made. In this case the charge is critically menacing the balance of the world. There is a difference between promoting strife, murder and evil and another is killing the goddess who kept a huge part of Realmspace alive and kicking.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 02:30 PM	He is there to punish those who break the rules, as they are set down by Ao. References, please. Because Tyr sure has been around longer than AO has in lore, and Tyr's personality hasn't significantly changed.
Markustay 10-05-07, 02:42 PM	I would never make the make mistake of writing about the gods - I'm not egotistical enough to think my tiny mortal brain is up to the task. and I'm pretty egotistical. ;) Then again, I'm not creative enough to come up with the concept that near-omnipotent beings would act like Jr. High-schoolers. Sheer genius. :rolleyes:
Red_Wizard 10-05-07, 03:02 PM	In this case the charge is critically menacing the balance of the world. There is a difference between promoting strife, murder and evil and another is killing the goddess who kept a huge part of Realmspace alive and kicking. Did he destroy realms space? No. Did he promote Murder, and Sow strife on one of the grandest scales? Yes. There is no room to charge him, as he acted within his portfolio. That is what it ultimately boils down to. Whether on a small scale, or on this scale, it remains what it is. I am of course not arguing that he can't be locked up, or that he can't be charged. But doing so would have no sound reasoning behind it based on what we've seen. To you GD, Crucible is the source I base my argument primarily off of. Tyr is shown there as the enforcer of Ao's wishes and decrees. He is the one who acts as judge over Cyric in order to see justice done, for Cyrics inactivity. As the god of Justice, he would have to act actively only at times when the charges were legitimate, and justified. He would be breeching his own portfolios mandates were he to head something unjust. Thus, by supporting the trial of Cyric being innocent, he can not also justify condemning him for acting correctly. That isn't law, it is whim and tyranny via chaos.
MaskedOne 10-05-07, 03:43 PM	Different roles. In Crucible, he operated as a judge working under AO's orders, i.e. enforce AO's law. Private action however against the lord of murder is advancing his portfolio as God of Justice. Advancing or failing to advance one's portfolio is not always a concern of AO's laws and as AO had seemingly not taken a stance, Tyr was free to act on his own initiative.
johnkretzer 10-05-07, 04:59 PM	Did he destroy realms space? No. Did he promote Murder, and Sow strife on one of the grandest scales? Yes. There is no room to charge him, as he acted within his portfolio. That is what it ultimately boils down to. Whether on a small scale, or on this scale, it remains what it is. I am of course not arguing that he can't be locked up, or that he can't be charged. But doing so would have no sound reasoning behind it based on what we've seen. To you GD, Crucible is the source I base my argument primarily off of. Tyr is shown there as the enforcer of Ao's wishes and decrees. He is the one who acts as judge over Cyric in order to see justice done, for Cyrics inactivity. As the god of Justice, he would have to act actively only at times when the charges were legitimate, and justified. He would be breeching his own portfolios mandates were he to head something unjust. Thus, by supporting the trial of Cyric being innocent, he can not also justify condemning him for acting correctly. That isn't law, it is whim and tyranny via chaos. Fine maybe Hoar should kill Cyric as the result of his actions caused alot of injustices that needs to be avenged. Also I disagree that the good gods can't kill Cyric because he was acting within his portfolio...because most of the gods would be acting in their portfolio of being good. The only thing that evil needs to win is for good beings to do nothing...if we continue to enforce these rules on the gods then I can't see good has a chance. But the main reason I hate this is that because it takes the story out of our hands. Sure I could and have run great campaigns with the struggles between various gods worshippers...and it just belittles the actions of the PCs when Cyric and Shar just kills Mystra and complete invalidates their actions of fighting against the Church of Shar and Tyr. It also makes a very bad story.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-05-07, 05:55 PM	Yes but you are both missing the obvious fact that he didn't break the cosmic law. He was well within his right as owner of the portfolios Strife and Murder to kill her, and despite Murder being a punishable mortal crime, as the deity of such he should get off scot free. Had any of the other gods done it, it would have made perfect sense to imprison them, and I'd be right along side you stating such. Not Cyric though. I guess we'll just have to disagree on this. I don't see why goodly deities should have to sit back and let Cyric murder whatever deities he would like to when it is their perogative to fight against, neutralize, or even destroy evil. At the very least, isn't Tyr the god of Justice? To me, that's a double standard.
sillaric_culdanin 10-05-07, 06:16 PM	I may be off-base here, but I think a part of what Red Wizard is saying is that is wouldn't be wrong for a crusading 'good deity', say Torm or Lathander to hunt down and slay Cyric in a deicide, whether in an act of vengeance (although someone rightly said above that Hoar should be the one doing any vengeance-killing) for the slaying of Mystra or for any of the other myriad 'evil' acts the Dark Sun has commited. What he sees as wrong is detaining and trying Cyric for the crime of 'upsetting the cosmic balance' when the Lord of Murder was simply doing his job (so what if he happened to enjoy even more than usual because he was murdering his greatest enemy). It is laid down in lore that simply killing another deity is not grounds for incarceration: Cyric slew Leira and took her portfolios, Shar slew Ilbrandul and took his and during the Godswar both Cyric and Midnight used deific power to slay gods (Bhaal and Myrkul respectively) and Helm beat Mystra 1.0 to death on the steps of the Celestial Stairway. Finder Wyvernspur even killed Moander and took his divine spark. All that said, if Tyr/Sune/whichever third god decided for personal reasons to put Cyric in chains for murdering their buddy and they had the combined power to do so... more power to them! If Cyric wasn't clever enough to get away with the deed or hide out from his enemies then he deserved to get slapped around. From my perspective (and if I misread RW's intent, my apologies) the gods that locked Cyric up didn't do so because they had some sort of right to do so... they did it because they could and they were likely terrified that any of them would be next.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-05-07, 06:20 PM	He is worshiped by mortals who strive for order, and use him as an example of what they wish to be, however he is not there to uphold, support, or abide by mortal notions of good, evil and right and wrong. He is there to punish those who break the rules, as they are set down by Ao. Cyric was tried for Innocence by way of insanity. He was charge with NOT preforming his duty of sowing Strife, and supporting murder outside of his church. The "law" of the gods therefore is that they must put into practise, and support their portfolios. By THOSE laws, not the faulty mortal ones, he must be held to. Therefore by those very laws, he is innocent, and cannot be punished. It doesn't matter what you think the law should be, or what is right and wrong on Toril. They are not held to "our" ideals. So as I said, given what we know, there is no valid case that can be made. Even if that's the case, that doesn't mean Lathander and Sune couldn't be involved. And neither of them is lawful. Tyr is Lawful GOOD, anyway--I would think morals and ethics mean something to him.
Eloc 10-05-07, 07:09 PM	The thing I havent seen addressed (or more likely missed) is the basic question - if the Weave/Shadow Weave simply cease working as is implied then doest that mean -ALL- magic ceases at the same instant?? Ergo ALL the mythrals and other prolonged spells including those providing immortality and other forms of undeath instantly stop. Anyone/thing requiring such for their existance would likewise cease existing. *poof* no more undead. no more vampires. no more floating cities. no more magical items. Moreover no more mythical creatures since their extrordinary and supernatural abilities are magic-based. Unicorns become simple ponies with a horn growing out of their heads. Dragons becomes kamodo(sp) dragons, merely large flightless lizards no more capable of breathing fire/etc as they are to speak/think. Likewise an argument could be made the non-human races are essentially dependent/inherently magical to a degree so its absence removes many of their abilities/features - elves are simply pointy ear humans without darkvision or immunity to charm/sleep. dwarves are merely obsese. In effect, does not removing the Weave and moving the timeline forward essentially bring us to d20 Modern???
GothicDan 10-05-07, 07:11 PM	No. There's going to be magic again. We just don't know what. And the other supernatural creatures existed without the Weave, in other Crystal Spheres. :)
johnkretzer 10-05-07, 08:41 PM	It is laid down in lore that simply killing another deity is not grounds for incarceration: Cyric slew Leira and took her portfolios, Shar slew Ilbrandul and took his and during the Godswar both Cyric and Midnight used deific power to slay gods (Bhaal and Myrkul respectively) and Helm beat Mystra 1.0 to death on the steps of the Celestial Stairway. Finder Wyvernspur even killed Moander and took his divine spark. And if you askied Cyric should have been killed my Mystrara for killing Leira..but no for some reason she didn't. The answear to the question is simple really why Cyric is still alive...Mr. Bakers response on the thread... Because they want to tell more stories of Cyric. That is why he is still alive. That is the only reason he is still alive. There is no logic or great outpouring of serious fan support for Cyric. It so they can tell the stories they want to tell. Also I will be honest from the start I thought Cyric was a lousy character. He reminded me of every person who wants to play a evil character in a D&D game just to screw with the other players. He had no style. He shouldn't to have been able to kill Leira. He shouldn't have been able to kill Mystra. He should have been reduced to nothing when Bane returned. But no he is a like the GMPCs badly runned and doesn't follow the rules of the setting. Also Hoar should be the most powerful god in the timeline...why because of all the death, and misery caused by Cyric actions the call for vengence will be great. And I doubt anyone can argue that Hoar would not be acting with in his portfolio if he went and killed Cyric.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 08:44 PM	I really liked Leira, and I never even knew anything about her, personally, besides what I read in F&A. She just felt better to me.
johnkretzer 10-05-07, 08:54 PM	I really liked Leira, and I never even knew anything about her, personally, besides what I read in F&A. She just felt better to me. I really liked her too...I sqw no reason for killing her except to make Cyric GDPC( Game Desiner Player Character) stronger. Hey though in my world she never died I think I know how I am going to deal with the attempted murder of Mystra...:D yeah that will be so cool.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 09:00 PM	"Leira! You're so naughty." "Teehee."
johnkretzer 10-05-07, 09:20 PM	"Leira! You're so naughty." "Teehee." Yes she is...as Mask will also soon learn...mmmm maybe I think Mask will be replaced...:plotting: Now all I have to do is convine msatran( my FR DM) that this would be a great idea.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 09:23 PM	Msatran is? You lucky bastard. I want to play!
johnkretzer 10-05-07, 09:59 PM	Msatran is? You lucky bastard. I want to play! :D Move to NJ I am sure he let you in. Unfortunaly it would mean living in NJ. But it isn't all that bad. :D Well you might be able to live in NY. But I think NY is worse then NJ.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 10:01 PM	Wait a minute. I LIVE in New Jersey! (But I go to school in PA.)
msatran 10-05-07, 10:06 PM	Uhh, Markus. That was the Greek Pantheon. They were the first deities to really act like children in WESTERN Civilization. But before that, the Egyptians and the Sumerians were doing a pretty good job of the same thing. Vanity of Vanities, saith the preacher. The problem is that in Realms Text this is inconsistent, not that Gods can't act this way. Plus, Tyr is NORSE. His personality is more well defined than any of the others. His judgement would be KILL HIM. Imprisonment is only for political advantage and ransoming people. And who the !@#$$! would pay a ransom for Cyric?
johnkretzer 10-05-07, 10:21 PM	Wait a minute. I LIVE in New Jersey! (But I go to school in PA.) Where in NJ? We live and game around the um Paramus/Ridgewood/Tenafly in Bergan County.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 10:23 PM	That's far enough away from me that I don't know where it is. I live in Burlington - the Pine Barrens. :) But maybe, one day, I could meet you guys and we could all grumble cormudgeonly with each other, before I head off to other coasts for grad school. :)
johnkretzer 10-05-07, 10:36 PM	That's far enough away from me that I don't know where it is. I live in Burlington - the Pine Barrens. :) But maybe, one day, I could meet you guys and we could all grumble cormudgeonly with each other, before I head off to other coasts for grad school. :) Yeah it is, but it would be cool to hang out and talk about the good old days.
msatran 10-05-07, 10:41 PM	Do you drink beer, Dan?
GothicDan 10-05-07, 10:42 PM	I don't, but I plan on figuring out how to do it, soon. Fraternity and all. I've heard Guinness is rather good. (I DO drink wine.)
johnkretzer 10-05-07, 10:50 PM	I don't, but I plan on figuring out how to do it, soon. Fraternity and all. I've heard Guinness is rather good. (I DO drink wine.) It is funny msatran as always been a beer snob and has a great collection of good beers...though the funiest and the best one is the Jewish beer HeBrew. Anyway I think we should get back on topic...sorry for this interruption to the normal thread topic. We should continue this though PMs...all start our own thread of wow we are alot closer then we thought... Anyway simple put there won't be a problem with Mystra's death in my game )or in the game I play in if I can get the DM to like it too) because it just won't happen. And if that means all future Realms products are useless to me I really don't care.
Red_Wizard 10-06-07, 10:27 AM	I may be off-base here, but I think a part of what Red Wizard is saying is that is wouldn't be wrong for a crusading 'good deity', say Torm or Lathander to hunt down and slay Cyric in a deicide, whether in an act of vengeance (although someone rightly said above that Hoar should be the one doing any vengeance-killing) for the slaying of Mystra or for any of the other myriad 'evil' acts the Dark Sun has commited. What he sees as wrong is detaining and trying Cyric for the crime of 'upsetting the cosmic balance' when the Lord of Murder was simply doing his job (so what if he happened to enjoy even more than usual because he was murdering his greatest enemy). It is laid down in lore that simply killing another deity is not grounds for incarceration: Cyric slew Leira and took her portfolios, Shar slew Ilbrandul and took his and during the Godswar both Cyric and Midnight used deific power to slay gods (Bhaal and Myrkul respectively) and Helm beat Mystra 1.0 to death on the steps of the Celestial Stairway. Finder Wyvernspur even killed Moander and took his divine spark. All that said, if Tyr/Sune/whichever third god decided for personal reasons to put Cyric in chains for murdering their buddy and they had the combined power to do so... more power to them! If Cyric wasn't clever enough to get away with the deed or hide out from his enemies then he deserved to get slapped around. From my perspective (and if I misread RW's intent, my apologies) the gods that locked Cyric up didn't do so because they had some sort of right to do so... they did it because they could and they were likely terrified that any of them would be next. Yes, that is what I was saying, only in greater detail. :) Also JK, I happen to like Cyric, and find him to be an interestingly flawed character. So I suppose it really falls back to personal opinion for why he is still here. I disagree though that he lacks any serious fan base, but you're welcome to speculate as such. ;)
GothicDan 10-06-07, 12:12 PM	Red Wizard, you LIKE CYRIC? Gah. *Makes a cross out of fingers.* BACK DEMON!
johnkretzer 10-06-07, 03:23 PM	Also JK, I happen to like Cyric, and find him to be an interestingly flawed character. So I suppose it really falls back to personal opinion for why he is still here. I disagree though that he lacks any serious fan base, but you're welcome to speculate as such. ;) Well if I was in charge he would be still alive because well I do realize there are people with different taste then my own, though he might take a slight backseat to other gods I like. Because you are right he propably has a fan base...as does Mystra, Helm, Eilistraee, etc. So why do the fans of Cyric win?
SgtAnjay 10-06-07, 04:05 PM	I've never disliked Cyric as such, though I've never like how he was used to summarily bump off several interesting folks to make a Lord of the Everything Eeeeevil. But the fact remains: murder contradicts justice, otherwise, it isn't really murder. If Cyric has to murder, Tyr has to hunt down murderers.
Mula 10-06-07, 05:54 PM	Because you are right he propably has a fan base...as does Mystra, Helm, Eilistraee, etc. So why do the fans of Cyric win? Because Cyric is evil, and we need evil in our game worlds so that the players have something to do. :) Did he destroy realms space? No.I think he did. When Cyric kills Mystra, all hell breaks loose both in the worlds of mortals and deities. Entire planes get destroyed, or at least the divine domains of the less powerful deities. Cyric (and Shar) really outdo themselves in 1358.
johnkretzer 10-06-07, 07:46 PM	Because Cyric is evil, and we need evil in our game worlds so that the players have something to do. :). So what do I tell my players that have been fighting against Cyric all these years..."Sorry guys but Cyric is evil so he just killed you gods so that you guys have stuff to do and it will be important. I guess what you guys did before weren't important. And Bob I know you worked real hard and RPed really well to become the Choosen of Eilistraee but it seems they have decided that it is better that she is destroyed so people can fight more evil." Sorry but I respect my player too much to tell them everything they have done in the last 20 years meant nothing, and then in the same breath to tell them it is to allow them to do self. It is the worst reasoning I can imagine.
Mula 10-06-07, 08:50 PM	:confused: Huh? If your players have become so intimate or otherwise are very closely related to certain deities or NPCs, you obviously keep those characters and elements in your game... no matter what the "official" word regarding them is. I'm really, honestly surprised by your answer! It's a no brainer that you keep important, crucial story elements in your game even if the canon would somehow invalidate them. :) Of course, if you want to explore the possibilities with the new changes, that's great too. Whatever you and your group feel most comfortable.
sillaric_culdanin 10-06-07, 09:08 PM	So what do I tell my players that have been fighting against Cyric all these years..."Sorry guys but Cyric is evil so he just killed you gods so that you guys have stuff to do and it will be important. I guess what you guys did before weren't important. And Bob I know you worked real hard and RPed really well to become the Choosen of Eilistraee but it seems they have decided that it is better that she is destroyed so people can fight more evil." Sorry but I respect my player too much to tell them everything they have done in the last 20 years meant nothing, and then in the same breath to tell them it is to allow them to do self. It is the worst reasoning I can imagine. Man oh man, John... I feel your pain. The Realms campaign I'm currently running has the party set against the machinations of Shar (running through the super-adventure series plus a great deal of political stuff in the background) and I had planned to cap it off with the party aiding Mystra in stealing the Shadow Weave from Shar... which I might still do but have the resulting corruption of Mystra (which I was going to do anyway) be the reason that Cyric was able to shiv her in Dweomerheart. The resulting chaos as the Weave/Shadow Weave unravel could lead to my then-epic level characters sacrificing themselves to hold the world together. This would give them a feeling of pride in their legacy in the Realms in 3.X and give them a reason to start over with level 1 characters in 4e. Just my thoughts.
selunatic2397 10-06-07, 09:08 PM	My gamers response to this was to ask if they could break out some of their older characters and slowly wipe Shar from existence. When I mentioned that during the Shadowdale adventure that even Banes clergy could not cast spells in Shar's shadow zone, a player said that Bane certaintly would not take that lying down... This resulted in a round table discussion on just what the weave feeds power to and what the gods...good and evil...would do to stop Shar. Following the rules that after the time of troubles that gods now get power from their worshippers and that that drow necromancer goddess got erased by deleting her name from the worlds memories... They are wiping every Shar temple from the face of Toril, exterminating all of her worshippers, and even released the heart of Borem [god of anger] and gave the Jathimen[sp?] dagger to Mystra. Borem is stalking Cyric due to his killing Bhaal before he could avenge himself. We even divvied up Shars portfolios among the gods and plan on wrapping things up after we get the last module. I run a first edition campaign and have no interest in this 4ED nonsense. :)
johnkretzer 10-06-07, 10:15 PM	Man oh man, John... I feel your pain. The Realms campaign I'm currently running has the party set against the machinations of Shar (running through the super-adventure series plus a great deal of political stuff in the background) and I had planned to cap it off with the party aiding Mystra in stealing the Shadow Weave from Shar... which I might still do but have the resulting corruption of Mystra (which I was going to do anyway) be the reason that Cyric was able to shiv her in Dweomerheart. The resulting chaos as the Weave/Shadow Weave unravel could lead to my then-epic level characters sacrificing themselves to hold the world together. This would give them a feeling of pride in their legacy in the Realms in 3.X and give them a reason to start over with level 1 characters in 4e. Just my thoughts. That sounds great and I am happy that you and your players can just start over. But I question a editon change that forces you to start over. 1st through 3.x never did. So why is 4th edition so special? Also my game(which I admitt has taken hiatus for awhile) and the game I play in isn't just one group of adventures but many groups of adventures. Which makes this all the harded.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-07-07, 12:07 AM	I don't, but I plan on figuring out how to do it, soon. Fraternity and all. I've heard Guinness is rather good. (I DO drink wine.) Well, I like wine too.:) And beer, actually. And "girly" drinks like cosmopolitans.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-07-07, 12:08 AM	:D Move to NJ I am sure he let you in. Unfortunaly it would mean living in NJ. But it isn't all that bad. :D Well you might be able to live in NY. But I think NY is worse then NJ. I live in NJ and I think it is a wonderful state.
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 12:18 AM	I live in NJ and I think it is a wonderful state. It is, I was just playing with peole's prespective of NJ...I don't mind at making fun of myself or the state I live in.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-07-07, 01:20 AM	It is, I was just playing with peole's prespective of NJ...I don't mind at making fun of myself or the state I live in. Not a bad attitude to have, I suppose.:)
Markustay 10-07-07, 01:06 PM	NJ smells funny. :P I guess that's what happens when your state is built on top of the world's largest landfill. :dancin: Sorry, couldn't resist. ;) Let's see... 4e stinks... Spellplague stinks... WotC stinks... the designers... never miond, no personal attacks. :bored: I think I covered all the usual bases, though. :cool: So we've been told Mystra's not coming back? And we are not going to get a new deity of magic? They think THAT was what was wrong with the setting? (not their infantile portrayal of near-omnipotent beings?) So, GH has had Boccob with NO complaints for years, and no authors ever wrote about HIM. Yeah... it was Mystra's fault.... :rolleyes:
Mula 10-07-07, 01:43 PM	Well I've understood that the problem was Mystra's complete and utter dominion over the Weave, and how she could totally pwn anyone by herself and with the help of her Chosen (who're VEEEERY hard to destroy). Does Boccob have similar power over OTHER deities, not just mortal spellcasters, that Mystra does?
Lykor 10-07-07, 02:56 PM	There isn't any argument you can make for Cyric getting off (namely acting within porfolio) that can't be used to kill Cyric as well. Cyric is easily the most hated and despised god in FR, both with the fans and with the in-game gods. Literally 99% of all of the gods would gladly kill him if they could get away with it. Putting him in prison is about the stupidest possible resolution for this idiotic debacle of a RSE. Just get Bane/Mask/Hoar/Tyr/Kelemvor to knock him off while everyone is outside "getting coffee". Hell, I bet most of the evil gods in the realms, even those with nothing to gain, would kill him just for the pleasure of watching him die.
18DELTA 10-07-07, 03:53 PM	I am really thinking about homebrewing my own world. The one where Mystra still lives. To change a setting that has been around for 20 years is totally retarded. Just to feed some authors egos. IMHO!:rolleyes:
GreyLord 10-07-07, 03:55 PM	He.. Yes. 100%. It would be MOST fitting to have Bane knock Cyric off, and I agree, more fans would be happy if it had been Cyric and Not Mystra. Read Baker's words on the entire thing they are setting up here, and I get the distinct impression they aren't listening to what fans want however. I don't know WHERE they are getting their source of inspiration for this plot from, but I suppose I'll see. Now if they destroy Waterdeep (as I've heard one person on these boards rumor), then I'll be really peeved. However I'll still give it a chance...up until that point at least. But I do agree, Cyric is probably the most hated of all the Realms items, and if they were repairing the realms...so to speak...it would have made FAR more sense to get rid of Cyric than to get rid of Mystra, or even half of the high level spellcasters!
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 05:17 PM	He.. Yes. 100%. It would be MOST fitting to have Bane knock Cyric off, and I agree, more fans would be happy if it had been Cyric and Not Mystra. Read Baker's words on the entire thing they are setting up here, and I get the distinct impression they aren't listening to what fans want however. I don't know WHERE they are getting their source of inspiration for this plot from, but I suppose I'll see. Now if they destroy Waterdeep (as I've heard one person on these boards rumor), then I'll be really peeved. However I'll still give it a chance...up until that point at least. But I do agree, Cyric is probably the most hated of all the Realms items, and if they were repairing the realms...so to speak...it would have made FAR more sense to get rid of Cyric than to get rid of Mystra, or even half of the high level spellcasters! I think they might be confused by our hatered of Cyric...I think they are thinking it is a villian we love to hate...instead we just hate because he is very bad character. I mean if I had a DM or a player who played a character in a game I would if it is a player kill the character off and ask him to make a new one that isn't so one dimensional and disruptive. If it is a DM and I can never just seem to kill the NPC I would leave the game.
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 05:20 PM	Well I've understood that the problem was Mystra's complete and utter dominion over the Weave, and how she could totally pwn anyone by herself and with the help of her Chosen (who're VEEEERY hard to destroy). Does Boccob have similar power over OTHER deities, not just mortal spellcasters, that Mystra does? Yet they have already explained that she can't and why she can't. I mean they have corrected this problem...it isn't of a case off it it 'isn't broken don't fix it' it is a case of 'once you fix a problem don't fix again' I mean right now that reasoning pretty much makes them look pretty unprofessional.
Lord Karsus 10-07-07, 06:33 PM	But I think NY is worse then NJ. -You and your dumb, unimportant state can go to hell! :P
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 06:50 PM	-You and your dumb, unimportant state can go to hell! :P Sigh...exactly the kind of unimaginitive come back one would expect from a New Yorker :P Hey that explains why Karsus failed soo badly he was from NY...:P :D
Lord Karsus 10-07-07, 10:52 PM	Sigh...exactly the kind of unimaginitive come back one would expect from a New Yorker :P -Why bother coming up with a snappy comeback, when all we're talking about is Jersey? Seriously, the only goods that have ever come from Jersey is Thomas Edison, the Deleware Water Gap, Tony Soprano, and that smokestack off of the Goethals, with the flames spewing forth. Seriously, that smokestack is awesome.
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 11:08 PM	-Why bother coming up with a snappy comeback, when all we're talking about is Jersey? Seriously, the only goods that have ever come from Jersey is Thomas Edison, the Deleware Water Gap, Tony Soprano, and that smokestack off of the Goethals, with the flames spewing forth. Seriously, that smokestack is awesome. :bow: That is the old Karsus we know and love. Hey you should be greatful for NJ we give NY a out in having to fess up about The Jets...and The Giants.
Lord Karsus 10-07-07, 11:32 PM	:bow: That is the old Karsus we know and love. Hey you should be greatful for NJ we give NY a out in having to fess up about The Jets...and The Giants. -Meh, I don't follow football. I take it they are rather...sucky, though? See, we give you the crappy teams, while we keep the (relativley) sucessful teams. :D
Dark Wizard 10-07-07, 11:50 PM	Key word relatively.
Lord Karsus 10-08-07, 12:09 AM	-Yeah, the Knicks are pretty crappy, as are the Icelanders.
Dark Wizard 10-08-07, 12:17 AM	We haven't been doing that well in the baseball area either. :P
Lord Karsus 10-08-07, 12:42 AM	-Notice, though, that NY has two teams, whereas NJ nas none. New York has, historically, had four baseball teams (Yankees, Mets, Giants & Dodgers), while Jersey has had none.
johnkretzer 10-08-07, 01:17 AM	-Notice, though, that NY has two teams, whereas NJ nas none. New York has, historically, had four baseball teams (Yankees, Mets, Giants & Dodgers), while Jersey has had none. Yeah but your football teams defected to us...though as a long time suffering Jets fans can you please take the Jets back....though I would still be a fan...sigh maybe i just like pain.
Dark Wizard 10-08-07, 02:18 AM	Yeah but your football teams defected to us...though as a long time suffering Jets fans can you please take the Jets back....though I would still be a fan...sigh maybe i just like pain. Now are you a 'fan' or aren't you? :D
johnkretzer 10-08-07, 02:30 AM	Now are you a 'fan' or aren't you? :D I think a fan is people who stick though the hard stuff. But atleast the Jets haven't changed to a baseball team on me...though maybe they should considering how they play...:D
Lord Toast 10-08-07, 08:13 AM	-Notice, though, that NY has two teams, whereas NJ nas none. New York has, historically, had four baseball teams (Yankees, Mets, Giants & Dodgers), while Jersey has had none. *chuckles* Yup, New York has two football teams, but they play in NJ. The only thing we can count for now on in the Realms is there will no longer be one being in charge of the Weave, multiple gods of magic is another problem they will solve by just leaving off the description in the respected deities portfolio.
DarkZephyr 01-19-08, 07:14 PM	No. There's going to be magic again. We just don't know what. And the other supernatural creatures existed without the Weave, in other Crystal Spheres. :) But based on what I have read about the Forgotten Realms, no matter who you are or what you are, god, elf or not, you are bound to the rules of whatever "Crystal Sphere" you are living in. The Egyptian deities (including Sharess who was Bast) who were invited to send a piece of themselves to the Realms by Ao, were bound by the rules and regulations of the Realms, and because of these rules that Ao himself set up, most of them perished. Bast survived because she was smart enough to let go of her peers' ethnocentricity and expand her influence throughout the realms and become Sharess. So if you are a creature based in magic and live in a Crystal Sphere where the embodiment of magic herself is utterly annihilated, then you should logically be affected SOMEhow. You cannot point to the survival of these types of creatures in other Crystal Spheres without Mystra and say "See?" because those creatures in the other spheres are all under different sets of rules and laws concerning magic and are equally bound to them.
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-19-08, 11:53 PM	I admittedly didn't read the whole thread, but I'd like to ask if its been brought up that the original Mystril, and the Weave, were once part of Selune, and she is getting an upgrade in power. Maybe its come full circle, and what was once ripped out and thrown as a last resort against Shar has finally come back to make Selune whole again? So thats more than enough backfire to Shar's plan, empowering her sister is the last thing she would've had wanted.
DarkZephyr 01-20-08, 12:27 AM	I admittedly didn't read the whole thread, but I'd like to ask if its been brought up that the original Mystril, and the Weave, were once part of Selune, and she is getting an upgrade in power. Maybe its come full circle, and what was once ripped out and thrown as a last resort against Shar has finally come back to make Selune whole again? So thats more than enough backfire to Shar's plan, empowering her sister is the last thing she would've had wanted. Mystra wasn't subsumed or absorbed by Selune, she was obliterated by Shar and Cyric. How can Selune take back into herself that which has been destroyed?
MarkusTay63 01-20-08, 12:35 AM	The magical energies that composed Mystra in the first place may still exist, albeit in a scattered state. Selūne may have been slowing absorbing all those 'wayward' pieces back into herself, thus effectively ending the Spellplague (it took awhile). So, if you look at it that way, and the weave was Mystra's 'body', then all those Plaguelands lying around in 4e are like drops of blood, spattered onto a crying world....
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-20-08, 01:03 AM	Yeah, remember that in the "time" when Selune "ripped Magic" and threw it at Shar, it was a conceptual war. By dividing her power she weakened herself, but it was like seeding reality and those parts of her grew independently, some, like Magic coming to be a fundamental part of it. The concept and reality of magic are still part of Toril and that is what Selune parted with in that immemorial time. I believe they said Selune has become a Greater God(dess) now, maybe she is the new Deity of Magic. I'd like that.
MarkusTay63 01-20-08, 01:05 AM	Perhaps she will be in charge of the Arcane Power Source, since that's what Mystra was composed of. ;) It would fit - Selūne = Hecate :D
DarkZephyr 01-20-08, 02:57 AM	Yeah, remember that in the "time" when Selune "ripped Magic" and threw it at Shar, it was a conceptual war. By dividing her power she weakened herself, but it was like seeding reality and those parts of her grew independently, some, like Magic coming to be a fundamental part of it. The concept and reality of magic are still part of Toril and that is what Selune parted with in that immemorial time. I believe they said Selune has become a Greater God(dess) now, maybe she is the new Deity of Magic. I'd like that. But isn't that what stupid WotC is trying to get away from? A deity that controls magic because too many teenagers cried and complained? I wonder how Selune feels about Mystra's death on a personal level. She was kind of like her daughter. Even the Midnight incarnation was in a way, since she became the new embodiment of the Weave, and the Weave came from Selune.
msatran 01-20-08, 03:06 AM	Did he destroy realms space? No. Did he promote Murder, and Sow strife on one of the grandest scales? Yes. There is no room to charge him, as he acted within his portfolio. That is what it ultimately boils down to. Whether on a small scale, or on this scale, it remains what it is. I am of course not arguing that he can't be locked up, or that he can't be charged. But doing so would have no sound reasoning behind it based on what we've seen. To you GD, Crucible is the source I base my argument primarily off of. Tyr is shown there as the enforcer of Ao's wishes and decrees. He is the one who acts as judge over Cyric in order to see justice done, for Cyrics inactivity. As the god of Justice, he would have to act actively only at times when the charges were legitimate, and justified. He would be breeching his own portfolios mandates were he to head something unjust. Thus, by supporting the trial of Cyric being innocent, he can not also justify condemning him for acting correctly. That isn't law, it is whim and tyranny via chaos. Uh, Tyr is a god of JUSTICE, when you come right down to it. And in medieval justice, when you can't properly punish someone for a crime with the assurance that they will sufficiently suffer for their actions, what do you do? You KILL them. That's right. You KILL them. Especially in the mythology that Tyr is originally from. He's not going to go and demand Wergild from Cyric for Mystra's death. That's ridiculous. You find a sufficiently PAINFUL and AGONIZING death for him too. Go back and look at the middle ages. They would cut out people's eyes with spoons and feed his genitals to a pig before cutting out his entrails with a dull poker and slowly roasting him over a fire. I can't stand how people look at these medieval fantasy worlds through the eyes of modern law enforcement. I like you, Red Wizard, but this particular post, upon reviewing it, got my pants in an uproar.
Kenzuki 01-20-08, 07:19 AM	Uh, Tyr is a god of JUSTICE, when you come right down to it. And in medieval justice, when you can't properly punish someone for a crime with the assurance that they will sufficiently suffer for their actions, what do you do? You KILL them. That's right. You KILL them. Especially in the mythology that Tyr is originally from. He's not going to go and demand Wergild from Cyric for Mystra's death. That's ridiculous. You find a sufficiently PAINFUL and AGONIZING death for him too. Go back and look at the middle ages. They would cut out people's eyes with spoons and feed his genitals to a pig before cutting out his entrails with a dull poker and slowly roasting him over a fire. I can't stand how people look at these medieval fantasy worlds through the eyes of modern law enforcement. I like you, Red Wizard, but this particular post, upon reviewing it, got my pants in an uproar. Ironic that the God of Justice committed one of the most unjust crimes I've read. He sends poor Helm to be his go between with Tymora because he's too freaken bashful then he gets jealous and kills Helm. Tyr has failed his duties and should just leave Toril. Oh wait...he is.
Lord Karsus 01-20-08, 07:38 AM	*chuckles* Yup, New York has two football teams, but they play in NJ. -And, the point? That just shows that Jersey is weak, and being weak, deserves to be colonized. -Don't know how I ignored that for like four months. ;)
Storm_Silverhand 01-20-08, 04:26 PM	Heya, Yeah, remember that in the "time" when Selune "ripped Magic" and threw it at Shar, it was a conceptual war. By dividing her power she weakened herself, but it was like seeding reality and those parts of her grew independently, some, like Magic coming to be a fundamental part of it. The concept and reality of magic are still part of Toril and that is what Selune parted with in that immemorial time. I believe they said Selune has become a Greater God(dess) now, maybe she is the new Deity of Magic. I'd like that. Everyone seems to forget that, according to the myth as outlined in Faiths and Avatars, when Selune threw the portion of herself at Shar, it tore away a similar (or perhaps smaller?) portion of Shar. So in effect, Mystryl is the daughter of Selune and Shar, and her essence is made up of both of them.
DarkZephyr 01-20-08, 07:33 PM	Heya, Everyone seems to forget that, according to the myth as outlined in Faiths and Avatars, when Selune threw the portion of herself at Shar, it tore away a similar (or perhaps smaller?) portion of Shar. So in effect, Mystryl is the daughter of Selune and Shar, and her essence is made up of both of them. Which means that Joan Crawford's got nothing on Shar, the ultimate "Mommy Dearest".
Bluenose 01-21-08, 08:58 AM	Uh, Tyr is a god of JUSTICE, when you come right down to it. And in medieval justice, when you can't properly punish someone for a crime with the assurance that they will sufficiently suffer for their actions, what do you do? You KILL them. That's right. You KILL them. Especially in the mythology that Tyr is originally from. He's not going to go and demand Wergild from Cyric for Mystra's death. That's ridiculous. You find a sufficiently PAINFUL and AGONIZING death for him too. Go back and look at the middle ages. They would cut out people's eyes with spoons and feed his genitals to a pig before cutting out his entrails with a dull poker and slowly roasting him over a fire. It occurs to me that there might have been a reason to imprison rather than kill Cyric. What happens to his portfolios afterwards? "Here, Sune, you can have strife, and Tyr can take lies..." Someone is going to end up with them, and I doubt if the gods involved really want Bane to, or someone else to get a hefty power boost. So if they imprison him, they've got 1000 years to figure out something better, and those portfolios are still not up for grabs. Though to some extent this depends on how Cyric's imprisoned and what he can do.
Lord Karsus 01-21-08, 10:10 AM	It occurs to me that there might have been a reason to imprison rather than kill Cyric. What happens to his portfolios afterwards? "Here, Sune, you can have strife, and Tyr can take lies..." Someone is going to end up with them, and I doubt if the gods involved really want Bane to, or someone else to get a hefty power boost. So if they imprison him, they've got 1000 years to figure out something better, and those portfolios are still not up for grabs. Though to some extent this depends on how Cyric's imprisoned and what he can do. -Good theory. Very good theory.
Kenzuki 01-21-08, 10:12 AM	Being that Sune is the Goddess of Love, she's not too far off from being Strife incarnate.....If there is one thing that can cause alot of Strife it's love. Case in point Romeo and Juliate, Helen and Paris, Pork N' Beans.
neferphras 01-21-08, 04:30 PM	This is my first post on this subject been keeping it bottled up for a while. First off regarding Tyr, you are right he would just SLAY Cyric, plain and simple. None of this imprisonment stuff. However, I don't believe for a second AO would let him do that. At the end of the day....Cyric was doing his job, he is the god of murder and strife. Killing Mystra, even thought here is a personal edge to it, is completely within his portfolio. Tyr likely imprisoned Cyric because he knew he could not get away with killing him. Now having run a 3-3.5 D&D game for going on 4 years now, and GMing for almost 20 years. I have to say this killing of Mystra...again....is a display of some of the worst plot writing I have ever witnessed. It is only out done by the truly ridiculous idea of Tymora marrying a lawful good god, and Tyr killing Helm. At least in my game, I am going to flat ignore the Tyr, Sune Tymora plot line and write it off as a bad trip (drug unknown) by the writers. Back to Mystra, I really don’t mind midnight dying, other than killing Mystra is a been there done that plot idea (show some imagination please!!!!!!). However I strongly object to getting rid of the Weave. The Weave, in my opinion, is a core concept of the Forgotten Realms and something that makes the world unique and enjoyable. Ebboron, Greyhawk, and to some degree Dragon Lance (though I like the Knight orders) are BOOOOORRRRING. The weave and its interaction with magic for players is a hook of, and it’s a hook that I truly believe has made the Forgotten popular of the years above other worlds. To me, the writers understand this and are trying to KILL the forgotten realms as a world. I really see this as a deliberate attempt by Wotc to promote Ebboron over the Forgotten Realms by writing out of existence factors making the Forgotten Realms cool, and I for one will not have it. I fully endorse and join the boycott of 4.0 suggested earlier in this thread due to the handling of Mystra's death, and have encouraged others in my group and beyond to do the same. Moves like this show supreme arrogance and disrespect of the fans and players of D&D and some message must be sent to the Wotc writers and executives that you can not just kill a world because you like your world design better. Destroying the Weave, in effect, makes the Forgotten Realms...just like everything else (YAWNNNNN).
neferphras 01-21-08, 04:37 PM	Now that being said if I were to used the Death of Mystra plot, though not the death of the weave, just some thoughts as to how things might go down ignoring the silly spell plague plot as well (did their writers just graduate collage or something, spell plague shessh was that wizardry gold III or something like that. Gack ). I run a WORLD campaign so I don’t ignore any Pantheon (Like Mulhorand, where my players often go) Time line: - Cyric and Shar team up to kill Mystra on her home plane. It goes poof, sending Azuth and the other gods of magic into the Astral Plane. . - Magic goes crazy; causing spells to randomly go wild outside of wild magic zones. - The gods of God (Tyr Lathander Sune) imprison Cyric. - The Shades invade and conquer Cormanthyr in a matter of days, without their Warwizards and with a poor leader it falls easily. The Shades shadow weave based magic is still stable. Refugees flood Simbia. - Clerics and Cleric/monks of Shar murder many followers of Mystra ransacking temples in the process. Haulla, the land of magic, is in ruins. The followers of Shar effectively take over the country. - 3 weeks after Mystra’s death, other gods of magic take action. Thoth, through his followers and chosen, speak the true name of the weave though an elaborate ritual, calming and stabilizing its structure. Pieces of Mystra (Midnight) which were launched into the weave with her death follow the weave to other gods. Isis, who was closely aligned with Mystra philosophically (both Neutral Good), inherits a great amount of divine power instantly becoming a greater goddess. - Set and Thoth inherit Devine power as well becoming patrons of Evil and Neutral spell casters respectively - Isis contacts and renews Mystra’s former good chosen; Thoth does the same for her former Neutral Chosen. Storm and Laurel Silverhand respectfully decline Isis offer, instead joining the follower of Selune to combat Shar. - Isis petitions and is accepted into the House of Nature. Bringing Magic into that house as a force of nature much like the seasons. Her ties with Sune also strengthen. - Thoth clerics quest the astral plane and rescue Azuth. Azuth merges with Thoth. Thoth joins the House of Knowledge with Ogma. - Cyric escapes his prison, briefly, with Shar’s help again. Kills Set and assumes his persona. While returning to his prison he attempts to betray Shar. The two greater gods battle briefly (as do their followers) Cyric manages to injure Shar and rip the Shadow Weave from her, though he is unable to claim it for himself. The other gods come for Cyric, he is again imprisoned, but not before he reveals Shar’s involvement (cementing his new aspect as god of betrayal inherited from Set). - Isis reveals to the good gods (again Sune, Lathander and Tyr) that while she can accept their punishment of Cyric, Shar’s involvement can not be forgiven, introducing a new term to them Jihad. - The faith of Isis declares faith war on the followers of Shar, and request that Horus-Re and the other Mulhorandian gods follow suit. Mulhorand, with Unther now conquered, boosts the single largest population in Forgotten Realms (8 million strong). Horus Re, god of light, agrees to fight against the Dark goddess. The last of the Ancient Empires is fully awoken. Thousands of Mulhorandian crusaders spread throughout the Realms. - Selune is accepted as a goddess in Unther. - Tymora replaces Bes as the god of luck in Mulhorand. - Hathor departs the realms; her followers divide between Isis and other gods. - Magical Portals open in the Wall Mountains in Haulla, Mulhorand invades the country. - Aglarond and Mulhorand sign a mutual defense treat. - Flooded by refugees, Sembia falls into chaos. Clerics of Talos and Malar run amok. Eventually devil cults stabilize the region. The most powerful of which is the Cult of Glaysa which eventually rules Sembia behind the scenes. Surprisingly her followers are amazingly tolerant of the worship of good gods, much to their confusion. With the help of fiendish servants they repel the further advance of the Shades and begin to rebuild Sembia. - The Zentrim declares war on the Shades as Bane fears the growing power of the Dark goddess. This was highly encouraged by Mask. - Tyr and Talos petition Ao to become the gods of Law and Chaos magic respectively. Ao notes the oddness of the joint request but denies it stating no one god represents Law or Chaos solely in the realms. Though Talos is close, to many chaotic good gods exists. Where as good, evil, and neutrality, had their natural base neutral patrons/matrons (NG Isis, NE Cyric (Set) and Thoth N). - Osiris joins Kelvemor in Fugue, merging the two lands of the dead. Over the next year the faiths merge as well. Most Paladins of Kelvemor follow Osiris and Kelvemor is worshipped as Anubis in Mulhorand. Osiris becomes a greater god as Kelvemor shares part of his divine essence with Osiris. This effectively sheds Kelvemor of the last of his humanity, now he can be with Midnight again as Isis and Osiris are married Gods. Anubis (Kelvemor) is the Judge of the Dead and Osiris control the natural order of life and death. - Hualla is stabilized. Shar’s followers, thought ousted from power, are not gone. - Paladin’s of Horus-Re come into contacts with Paladin’s of Tyr and Helm for the first time while hunting down cells of Shar. A meeting of the gods occurs. As a result Horus-Re joins the newly formed House of Law. Lathander is allowed to gather worshippers as the god Aten in Mulhorand. - Adventurers sponsored by the church of Tymora find the tomb of Marduk guided by the Gold Dragon Nexus in human form. Isis and Horus Re impart part of their divine power into Nexus, along with the recover relics, this action effectively resurrects Bahamut. - Dragon Fall war begins. Summary: Cyric, though imprisoned, is more thought of than ever, picking up the followers of Set, and finally being considered a god of magic, that of evil spell casters. No one deity controls the weave or shadow weave. Isis takes over the guardianship of magic as a part of the natural order of the forgotten realms, but is in contact with Thoth and regrettably Cyric (Set). Shar arrogance was her downfall ignoring the presence of relevant gods outside her own pantheon. Mystra’s (midnight’s) reaching out to Thoth and Isis in her final days served as the security of the weave needed. The crusade against Shar’s followers continues as the gods of law is no longer ignoring her influences in the Realms. Shar is force to sink back into the shadows and wait for another night. Talos and the gods of Fury are given time to rise in influence and are sure to be a greater danger during the dragon wars. Mulhorand becomes a world power and provides ample distraction to Thay, The Church of Tiamat, and other such evil groups, allowing the Northern country to recover from the Pharimum and Shade wars.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-21-08, 07:09 PM	-And, the point? That just shows that Jersey is weak, and being weak, deserves to be colonized. -Don't know how I ignored that for like four months. ;) Most people here seem to love the Giants.:)
MarkusTay63 01-21-08, 07:37 PM	But in 4e, they're changing the Giants... :rolleyes:
GreenKnight 01-21-08, 08:53 PM	I wish the past 20 years of Dolphins history would get retconned... :(
msatran 01-21-08, 11:47 PM	Green, trust me, though I am a Giants fan,(35 years now, since age 3) Bob Griese is still one of my top 4 QBs of all time, and I wish the past 20 years of Dolphins history could be retconned too. Nonetheless, there was a period of about 25 years where the Giants played lousy football also. I'm certain that Wizards has opened a can of anger here and they can't let the genie back in with 4th edition FR. Not necessarily 4th edition, but 4th edition FR.
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 02:59 AM	Well Tyr, Lathander, and Sune DID punish Cyric. They probably would have killed him if it were possible, too. However, Cyric is too powerful.
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 03:34 AM	I think the problems people have with Mystra's death are really taking the rules a little too literally. "How can Shar keep a secret from all the other deities?" "She's the Goddess of Secrets. Duh." "How can Cyric sneak into Dweamorheart." "Duh, he's the God of Murder/Lies/Illusion!" Really, I wish they'd insert Divine Ineffability into the Realms like exists in Steve Jackson's In Nomine. Basically, Angels and Demons know EVERYTHING....except what other Angels and Demons are doing.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 04:21 AM	Most people here seem to love the Giants.:) -Yes, the New York Giants, soon to be Super Bowl champions. :P I wish the past 20 years of Dolphins history would get retconned... :( -I have this scroll here, that allows you to summon Mephisto...Want it?
Fabius Maximus 01-22-08, 10:55 AM	-Yes, the New York Giants, soon to be Super Bowl champions. :P Beating the Patriots? Would be nice for the sake of diversity, but I'm not seeing it.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 11:29 AM	Beating the Patriots? Would be nice for the sake of diversity, but I'm not seeing it. -While this isn't a football thread, they currently are "on fire", and they gave the Pats their toughest game on Week 16, when they had nothing really on the line. I just have a good feeling, that's all.
msatran 01-22-08, 12:39 PM	Although this has nothing to do with the thread topic, before I post my comments about that. 1) History is on the side of the Giants. Every time a least seeded team has made it to the super bowl, they've won. The last two times it was the Cowboys and...the 2000 New England Patriots. 2) The law of averages works in the Giants favor. A close loss in the regular season usually equates to a playoff or championship victory. 3) They beat Green Bay. In the second coldest football game ever played. As far as anyone who knows anything about football is concerned, that makes them one of the greatest teams of all time. 4) The higher the pressure, the more Manning shines. And he's a warm weather quarterback, after coming out of the most freezing game this year. 5) Rematches are mean. Everyone plays their best. And you know, the guys who lost the first game try just a little bit harder. 6) The laws of Karma are against them. Belicheck got caught cheating early in the season, yet somehow the Giants have the reputation as the League's dirtiest team? 7) 17-0 is a long way to go, and everyone says the Patriots are the best team ever. None of that matters now. The Giants don't have to beat the best team in football for 17 games. They only have to be better than them for 58 minutes, and then let the clock run out. Before you say this isn't possible, the Giants already proved it's possible to run the ball against the Patriots. With every game the Patriots play, there's another chance to lose. 8) The Patriots lost their biggest advantage last week when the Packers finally figured out how to go to the right side against Osi Umaneurya. The Giants now have two weeks to fix that and use it to their advantage. I'm sure that's a big part of Belichek's game plan, or was. 9) When Strahan is pumped, offenses should beware. He is one of the best defensive players the League has ever seen, and he wants a ring very, very badly. 10) The Center Advantage. Even the Giants backup center is a 9 year veteran with tons of experience. This is actually the most important position in the sport, and the Patriots can't match this kind of anchoring skill. ------------------------------------------------------- The problem a lot of us have with the Time Jump, and Mystra's death in particular, is that it follows a negative trend of authorship many of us have seen in the past of people who believe that by ruining the sacred truths about characters, stories, or worlds, they can create fantastic single stories and "elevate their universe above simple pulp." The truth is that this technique only works when it is applied to stories and/or belief systems where there is not a large group who believe in a common body of knowledge. When there isn't, there is anger, rejection, and wholescale divisiveness. Sometimes, you get a large following, sometimes you don't, but if Wizards is seeking to create a unified larger pool of gamers, I believe they are going to succeed somewhere around edition 9. Similar incidents in history include: 1) The Protestant Reformation. You guys may not believe it, but this is exactly what this is like, only the boys at Wizards who didn't really like 3.5 are nailing their demands to the most successful brand of D+D ever's church door. There was a hundred year war over it. 2) Marvel Comics Civil War: The most repugnant story ever to come down the comic book pike, seeing Superheroes act unheroically in order to fight over the actions of an obviously repressive and foolish government disgusted and nauseated every single comic book fan I know. There was no supervillain behind the plot, though now people think the event was manipulated by Skrulls in a desperate attempt to get their fan base back. Clearly written in after the fact, this plot sucks so much that people are walking away from Marvel Comics in droves. Every week I hear another voice saying "Spider Man is dead to me" or "Marvel Comics is dead to me." 3) Films by Uwe Boll have more consistency than 4h edition FR lore. Heck, if you ignore the Dungeon Siege movie by Uwe Boll title, I hear the movie isn't half bad, and is more consistent. 4) It's too modern in tone, theme, and attitude. The "escape from medieval fantasy and governmental structures" tone bothers me on a number of levels. Cormyr moving towards a constitutional monarchy? This doesn't feel right or bode well for the Realms.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 01:03 PM	Although this has nothing to do with the thread topic, before I post my comments about that. -You forgot #11. The spirits of all disgruntled Mets fans, who were so close, are with them. 2) Marvel Comics Civil War: The most repugnant story ever to come down the comic book pike, seeing Superheroes act unheroically in order to fight over the actions of an obviously repressive and foolish government disgusted and nauseated every single comic book fan I know. -I liked the idea behind Civil War- Law versus Chaos. So...
DarkZephyr 01-22-08, 01:57 PM	Well Tyr, Lathander, and Sune DID punish Cyric. They probably would have killed him if it were possible, too. However, Cyric is too powerful. But that could have been said about Mystra, and did that stop her from being bumped off YET again? Nope.
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 02:17 PM	But that could have been said about Mystra, and did that stop her from being bumped off YET again? Nope. I don't see how. Cyric and Shar have bene plotting this for decades.
18DELTA 01-22-08, 02:23 PM	I don't see how. Cyric and Shar have bene plotting this for decades. -Well since his coming to Godhood-the years he went mad.:rolleyes: DELTA:D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 02:24 PM	I think the problems people have with Mystra's death are really taking the rules a little too literally. "How can Shar keep a secret from all the other deities?" "She's the Goddess of Secrets. Duh." "How can Cyric sneak into Dweamorheart." "Duh, he's the God of Murder/Lies/Illusion!" Really, I wish they'd insert Divine Ineffability into the Realms like exists in Steve Jackson's In Nomine. Basically, Angels and Demons know EVERYTHING....except what other Angels and Demons are doing. The problem with this argument (and others like it--I've seen it before) is that it ignores or plays down Mystra's strengths. I'm also not sure I buy it that Cyric is just too powerful for three Greater Deities to kill.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 02:25 PM	-Yes, the New York Giants, soon to be Super Bowl champions. :P I take it you don't believe that...:P I'm rooting for the Knights...the team featured in my sig.:P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 02:29 PM	I don't see how. Cyric and Shar have bene plotting this for decades. We could all argue forever about whether or not this change was possible from a lore standpoint. Whether or not it was, I don't like the change, and I believe it was done for players don't agree with me about Mystra's role in the setting. *shrug* So, I'll be ignoring it.
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 03:13 PM	Ultimately, I actually believe Mystra DID recieve too much ATTENTION at the expense of Tyr and other deities of Good. She was the Goddess of Magic, not the Goddess of Good. Where's :censored: Lathander's Chosen?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 03:19 PM	Ultimately, I actually believe Mystra DID recieve too much ATTENTION at the expense of Tyr and other deities of Good. See, I disagree, so...*shrug*:) Where's :censored: Lathander's Chosen? I'm happy WotC seems to have eased up on the Chosen thing. I belong to the school of thought that says only Mystra should have Chosen (with a capital C--that is, other gods can have chosen ones, but not with the same kinds of power that Chosen of Mystra have). Chosen of Mystra are unique in that they are supposed to be a check on Mystra's power--none of the other gods need Chosen the way Mystra does (these are Ed's words, not mine).
18DELTA 01-22-08, 03:28 PM	I'm happy WotC seems to have eased up on the Chosen thing. I belong to the school of thought that says only Mystra should have Chosen (with a capital C--that is, other gods can have chosen ones, but not with the same kinds of power that Chosen of Mystra have). Chosen of Mystra are unique in that they are supposed to be a check on Mystra's power--none of the other gods need Chosen the way Mystra does (these are Ed's words, not mine). Also, giving every god Chosen would be a good example of the "needless symmetry" the 4E designers say they are trying to avoid. -Yep,yep,yep!!! Cant be overshadowin my 3rd level super uber PC now can they?:rolleyes: The more I think how its all about the Pc's the more Jaded I get.:rolleyes: D:rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 01-22-08, 03:33 PM	Shar has been plotting this since 1352 DR, the first year of the Black Chronology. By following a specific path of prophesy, she chose a future more to her liking (note that in her roll of years, the year Cyric and Mystra became gods is known as the Year of Ascension). Hopefully, Sevras was able to see where she was going with her plots, and some how used his 'sacrifice' to alter events at the last moment to cause Shar's victory to fall short. Like her NOT gaining control of the Weave and all magic? ;) I'm sure it was her intent to seize Mystra's power, so obviously something didn't work out according to her plans.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 04:21 PM	I take it you don't believe that...:P -No, I do. That was a tongue sticking outing (:D) at you. Eh, I don't know. Has something to do with the Jersey-New York war that was going on. Oh yeah, I stressed the New York Giants part.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 05:40 PM	-No, I do. That was a tongue sticking outing (:D) at you. I like that.:D Eh, I don't know. Has something to do with the Jersey-New York war that was going on. Oh yeah, I stressed the New York Giants part. War? What war?:P
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 06:03 PM	I like that.:D -Excellent. :P War? What war?:P -I don't know. The fact tht 1/2 of this thread is months old makes it a little awkward.
XHereticX 01-22-08, 08:14 PM	Aww, Bradey's walking around New York in a leg cast... I had such high hopes for the Pats too:(
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 08:30 PM	Aww, Bradey's walking around New York in a leg cast... I had such high hopes for the Pats too:( -He said he's going to play in the Super Bowl no matter what, but you know what? In true New York fashion, "**** you, you ****ing piece of ****!" :)
XHereticX 01-22-08, 08:32 PM	-He said he's going to play in the Super Bowl no matter what, but you know what? In true New York fashion, "**** you, you ****ing piece of ****!" :) Ahh, gotta love Long Islanders:) . Anyway, go Patriots, Boston kicks NYC's ass any day.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 08:35 PM	Ahh, gotta love Long Islanders:) . -**** Long Island too, while we're at it. Boston kicks NYC's ass any day. -In the immortal words of Mr. Scully, "It gets by Buckner! It gets by Buckner!" :)
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 08:39 PM	See, I disagree, so...*shrug*:) Well, in my games, I have always used the Triad +1 (As I refer to Helm) as a major source in my games. It annoys me to Hell that not only is the Triad going to broken up but people actually think Tyr's reputation has been sullied by killing Helm. Helm, I'm sure, had it coming because let's face it....the guy has tried to murder Chauntaea before and also is responsible for all the wackiness in Maztica. Helm also murdered the Old Mystra. Tyr, though, Tyr is THE God of Lawful Goodness. He's the Exemplar. The Embodiment of Old Style Judgment on High. Is Torm better than Tyr? Yes, he's the young and better fellow that will perhaps someday redeem the world in a better way than his master. But we rarely get to see that because Mystra is considered the Big Game in Town.
XHereticX 01-22-08, 08:55 PM	Tyr, though, Tyr is THE God of Lawful Goodness. He's the Exemplar. The Embodiment of Old Style Judgment on High. Is Torm better than Tyr? Yes, he's the young and better fellow that will perhaps someday redeem the world in a better way than his master. But we rarely get to see that because Mystra is considered the Big Game in Town. Out with the old, and in with the new. It should be a familiar pattern by now.
DarkZephyr 01-22-08, 09:17 PM	I don't see how. Cyric and Shar have bene plotting this for decades. The point that was made was that "Cyric was just too powerful" to be killed. But Mystra was supposed to be second only to Ao in power. So how could she be killed no matter how many decades they were plotting it? And how could she not KNOW they were plotting something? Wasn't that a given? Did she not KNOW that these two were her most deadly enemies? She was utterly clueless as to what they were capable of? It majorly sucks that she has to die, yes, but that she has to go out like a clueless moron is the biggest insult and heartless slap in the face to those of us who were very fond of her. Yeah, I know that a lot of you are "oh so glad" that she is dead, you hated her, she was a goodie two shoes, or she didn't act good enough, she was just a human pretender, etc. But we all have the deities we loath and the deities we are partial to. Isn't that what made Forgotten Realms so great? There was something for everyone? Mystra/Midnight's death just DIDN'T need to be handled this way. It just didn't. The fans who love Mystra didn't deserve this. By the way, one of the gods that I disliked the most was Helm because of what he did to the old Mystra. But that doesn't mean I am going to go around talking about how glad I am he is dead. I am not glad, because I know that despite my feelings about him, others liked him. His existence in the setting didn't hurt me any. I would prefer that he had not been bumped off. The problem with this argument (and others like it--I've seen it before) is that it ignores or plays down Mystra's strengths Amen, you said it.
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 09:25 PM	Shar has also been established as the most powerful Goddess after Mystra (and Mystra's "Most powerful after Ao" business was before the Shadow Weave). Cyric is also one of the most powerful of all gods in the Realms as well. As for not knowing, she KNEW they were plotting something just not necessarilly this. I also think that Velsharoon probably betrayed her.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 09:28 PM	I also think that Velsharoon probably betrayed her. -He was being courted by Shar, and was thinking about switching alegiances, as per Faiths and Pantheons. That would also explain why he, a lesser deity, survived, while Savras, an equally lesser deity, didn't.
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 09:33 PM	I think Velsharoon's betrayal does make it SLIGHTLY more plausible. I love Cyric but even RB thinks he's an idiot.
GreenKnight 01-22-08, 09:33 PM	Shar has also been established as the most powerful Goddess after Mystra (and Mystra's "Most powerful after Ao" business was before the Shadow Weave). Faiths & Pantheons lists them both as Divine Rank 18, so that'd make them pretty much equal (Cyric is Divine Rank 17).
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 09:38 PM	The Judge, the Knight, and the Holy Martyr bless you! -Traditional Triad greeting to Green Knight But yes, honestly, it does seem a little weird. I'm not problematic with Mystra being killed, I'm not. However, I think that such a thing needs more than Cyric just walking up to her and bashing it out with her since Azuth would come to her rescue. If Shar "helped" then Shar damn well should BE there with an army of evil behind her. Maybe if Shar, Bane, and Cyric tag teamed Mystra while Velsharoon kept Azuth distracted...I'd believe it. I'm not saying it's not POSSIBLE though. I'm saying that it isn't IMPOSSIBLE, though.
XHereticX 01-22-08, 09:43 PM	In the end, it was Phat Lewt that overcame them all:( I highly doubt Bane would be willing to work with Cyric under any circumstance, and I think Mystra and Azuth were always aware of Velsharoon's perfidy but chose not to act. I think that Shar found some way to corrupt the weave and therefore weaken Mystra, then used Cyric as a distraction while Shar snuck in and stabbed her in the back. After all this is Midnight, not Mystra, so there is a lot less experience backing up this particular incarnation. There is also the slightest chance that Mystra forsaw this and made certain preparations...so we've havn't seen the last of her yet. Though if she does come back, it will be in a totally different role and maybe even with a different name.
DarkZephyr 01-22-08, 09:43 PM	Shar has also been established as the most powerful Goddess after Mystra (and Mystra's "Most powerful after Ao" business was before the Shadow Weave). Cyric is also one of the most powerful of all gods in the Realms as well. As for not knowing, she KNEW they were plotting something just not necessarilly this. I also think that Velsharoon probably betrayed her. Well, she went out like a clueless buffoon as far as I am concerned, which I find utterly insulting. And her death so far sounds completely meaningless and empty. No noble sacrifice, no final words of wisdom or hope. Just a major b**** slap that she won't be getting up from.
GreenKnight 01-22-08, 09:54 PM	The Judge, the Knight, and the Holy Martyr bless you! -Traditional Triad greeting to Green Knight Thanks! :) I'm not saying it's not POSSIBLE though. I'm saying that it isn't IMPOSSIBLE, though. Cyric knew her true name, so I wonder if that played a role, somehow? Although for all the talk of true names and such, I can never seem to find any mechanics on that. Maybe in Tome of Magic? Who knows.
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 09:54 PM	Well, she went out like a clueless buffoon as far as I am concerned, which I find utterly insulting. And her death so far sounds completely meaningless and empty. No noble sacrifice, no final words of wisdom or hope. Just a major b**** slap that she won't be getting up from. That's because the Bad Guy won. It's like the assassination of Isildur. It's the start of the heroes Journey where Obi Wan (Mystra) and so on are killed. It's not the ending. Mystra isn't heroically sacrificed because she's not the hero, she's the victim.
XHereticX 01-22-08, 09:57 PM	Well, she went out like a clueless buffoon as far as I am concerned, which I find utterly insulting. And her death so far sounds completely meaningless and empty. No noble sacrifice, no final words of wisdom or hope. Just a major b**** slap that she won't be getting up from. You can't know for sure until you read the 4E CS, they only give a brief summary in Grand History. I am sure they will try to elaborate on the precise details of it later.
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 10:03 PM	My scenario will have Cyric assume the shape of a fluffy Calico cat before Mystra picks him up and he goes for her throat. ;-) Cats can kill 1st level commoners you know!
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-22-08, 10:14 PM	Well is awful unlikely that the Goddess of Secrets should keep one, and the God of Murder act on his namesake right? Mystra was a great goddess, but she was still part mortal... Magic didn't die, Midnight did, so I could careless. My favorite character is a dweomerkeeper, even though he is LN and worships her older aspect. Like its been said before, magic is still out there, and I hope this time it is a uncaring cosmic entity that takes on the mantle, maybe even Mystril reborn. I'll be honest and say I didn't like her being good, if you're to take on a portfolio like magic, you better be ready to shed your human morals. Thats why I like Kelemvor, as far as I know he is true to his portfolio and let go of mortal sentiment to assume the mantle of Death. And the right type of death, the final one. Not petty evil beings who allow for undead, thus betraying their main portfolio. So yeah, Kelemvor went in the right direction, Mystra went south when she refused to let go for the greater good. Rinonarlyna reminded us that a piece of Shar was also present at the creation of Mystril maybe it was the Shadow Weave... Maybe she could've absorbed the Shadow Weave, but refused to do so, she didn't want to lose her "self" (I think I read something to the liking in some book). Typycal egotistical human being, not the behavior expected from the Deity of Magic.
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 10:20 PM	So, will Azuth rise to Greater Deity status as the God of Magic or do you think they'll chop up the portfolios? I.e. Kelemvor is the God of Necromancy with Velsharoon?
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-22-08, 11:14 PM	You know what? Azuth would be a great Deity of Magic. Can't see a Deity of Death that remains true to death's finality have anything to do with altering or reversing the state. Much less having a partnership with something that is a blatant violations of His (Kelemvor's) decrees.
Meldread 01-23-08, 01:22 AM	I don't think so - I think Azuth will ultimately find a place in Oghma's service. Personally, I see three main magic deity's in FR right now: Shar, Selune and Oghma. Each of them have a different take on how magic should be used. Cyric is also a deity of magic, as well as Velsharoon, but they are more specialized. Bane as well may be embraced by some wizards - it suddenly opens a whole new door into motivations behind studying magic. Are you studying magic for selfish reasons, for a personal quest for power? (Then Cyric, Bane or Velsharoon are your most likely deities.) Are you studying magic because you want a form of immortality? (Velsharoon is a possible deity.) Are you studying magic for the sake of knowledge and appreciation for the art? (Azuth and Oghma become possible deities.) Are you studying magic because you have the ability and are forced to by your government? (In that case, Bane is your most likely deity, unless you hate magic and hate studying it in which case Shar is a possibility as well!) Are you studying magic for its destructive abilities? (Then Talos might be your deity!) Are you studying magic, seeking out hidden and secret power that few others have ever unlocked? (In that case, Shar might be your deity.) Etc.
MarkusTay63 01-23-08, 01:37 AM	They have said TIME AND AGAIN that there will be NO deity of magic in 4e!!! They might break-up different schools of magic amongst the gods... except there are NO schools in 4e! In place of schools, we will have spells aranged by the types of power sources required to cast them. So far, ALL of the power sources appear to be connected to PLANES, not gods. Gods all share the DIVINE power source, which means that clerics will once again be rather bland and generic from god to god. Hopefully, Domains will survive in some form or another, but I don't see gods having anything to do with 'wizardly' magic at all, going by what little we've been told about the 4e magic system.
Lord Karsus 01-23-08, 07:10 AM	Maybe if Shar, Bane, and Cyric tag teamed Mystra while Velsharoon kept Azuth distracted...I'd believe it. I'm not saying it's not POSSIBLE though. I'm saying that it isn't IMPOSSIBLE, though. -Eh, I don't know how much Bane would be involved... Cyric knew her true name, so I wonder if that played a role, somehow? Although for all the talk of true names and such, I can never seem to find any mechanics on that. Maybe in Tome of Magic? Who knows. -Yes, True Name Magic is detailed in Tome of Magic.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-23-08, 09:57 AM	But yes, honestly, it does seem a little weird. I'm not problematic with Mystra being killed, I'm not. However, I think that such a thing needs more than Cyric just walking up to her and bashing it out with her since Azuth would come to her rescue. If Shar "helped" then Shar damn well should BE there with an army of evil behind her. I'm not saying it's not POSSIBLE though. I'm saying that it isn't IMPOSSIBLE, though. I agree with this, even though Myrtra is my second favorite god in The Realms, if it some one makes a good story and I mean a GOOD story i can live with her death(Like when Colosus from the X-Men died to cure the Legacy Virus). Also I don't find insulting the way she died cuz there are NO DEATAILs of her death besides the fact of where and who(?) I asked Mr. Baker if theres a novel coming up, and he said there are no plans for it even though there's an potencial for a great story.
DarkZephyr 01-23-08, 01:42 PM	That's because the Bad Guy won. It's like the assassination of Isildur. It's the start of the heroes Journey where Obi Wan (Mystra) and so on are killed. It's not the ending. Mystra isn't heroically sacrificed because she's not the hero, she's the victim. Well, guess what? As a fan of Mystra/Midnight, I just don't like it, OK? I am simply saying that I personally think that it could have been handled in a way that was not an insult to her fans but all the big mouths who wanted her gone could be happy too. For everyone that comes on here saying "I don't care that she is dead" or "I am glad she is dead" there are others who are saddened by her death and would like to simply vent. And besides, with Obi Wan, you did NOT see the last of him. If WotC have their way (and they will), we won't even be getting a weak wisdom spouting glowing ghost version of Midnight/Mystra. I know my whining won't change a thing, because WotC doesn't even care when MOST people hate their ideas, but at least it makes me feel a little better to state my feelings about this. I agree with this, even though Myrtra is my second favorite god in The Realms, if it some one makes a good story and I mean a GOOD story i can live with her death(Like when Colosus from the X-Men died to cure the Legacy Virus). Also I don't find insulting the way she died cuz there are NO DEATAILs of her death besides the fact of where and who(?) I asked Mr. Baker if theres a novel coming up, and he said there are no plans for it even though there's an potencial for a great story. Well, since Mr. Baker (who I am not real fond of right now) says there are no plans to make a story, WILL we get any really good details? People keep saying "At least there will still be magic" or "I don't care that she is dead, as long as there is still magic" and "goodie goodie, we still get magic" and there is continued talk of the "schools of magic", but are you all aware of what is going to HAPPEN to magic? The schools, according to Mr. Baker, are GONE and instead, people will have to use "implements", like wands and staves and such. I am sorry, but that is not something that appeals to me in any way, shape or form.
Charles Phipps 01-23-08, 01:48 PM	I'm not unsympathetic. I'm not. I'm not jumping up and down for joy that the Seven Sisters have lost members, Mystra is dead, Now :censored: *TYR* for Torm's sake is gone, Helm is dead, and eveyrthing else has happened. I'm willing to wait for Realms 4.0. I confess, I'm getting more worried not less but I'm holding off any panic until the actual book is in my hands and I've read it.
MaskedOne 01-23-08, 01:59 PM	I'll wait for the FRCG but to make a final call but as things stand. I'm gonna skim through the book for about 10 minutes in the store, determine yes it is as bad I expect and then walk away. EVERYTHING I've seen so far basically says that as far as WotC is concerned, the things I love about FR are liabilities to be wiped out and short of divine inspiration, I don't think WotC is capable of putting anything in that is so great that I'll overlook the needless destruction of things I enjoy about the setting. It is remotely possible that either WotC will alter something in a way I like or get struck by divine inspiration between now and August but I wouldn't bet my money or the money of anyone I particularly care about on it.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-23-08, 03:04 PM	Well, since Mr. Baker (who I am not real fond of right now) says there are no plans to make a story, WILL we get any really good details? I'm with you I personally don't care about Magic(since I don't usually play arcane casters) I cared about Mystra. she's an icon of FR and the way she finded a way to preform her duties w/o giving up what she belived in, IMO she was the most humane of the gods... I don't know how to describe it I guess... - In any event i can't bring myself to blame all this stuff (specially since he admited that he didn't agree to the Chosen's fate). I guess I identify with him. since In the Army you more times that you will want you have to do stuff you don't agree with. Make sense?
DarkZephyr 01-23-08, 04:31 PM	I'm not unsympathetic. I'm not. I'm not jumping up and down for joy that the Seven Sisters have lost members, Mystra is dead, Now :censored: *TYR* for Torm's sake is gone, Helm is dead, and eveyrthing else has happened. I'm willing to wait for Realms 4.0. I confess, I'm getting more worried not less but I'm holding off any panic until the actual book is in my hands and I've read it. You know, the death of my all time favorite D&D character is only a part of why I am so crabby. It sounds like SO MUCH is going to change, so much of what made the Forgotten Realms what they are is going to be done away with. I just don't understand what they are thinking. So far, it seems as though not only is Mystra going to die, but the very heart and soul of the FR is going to die. Magic is going to be changed, the Fiends will be changed, the gods are getting a TOTAL face lift. If the elven gods, dwarven gods, hafling gods and human gods were really all the same, then who the heck is Lolth? what is going to be happening with THAT story arch? Lolth is or was (for all I know, she is also toast) a deity that I loved to hate, so I will hate to see her gone, too, but I really don't want her to remain at the expense of Elistraee either. In any event i can't bring myself to blame all this stuff (specially since he admited that he didn't agree to the Chosen's fate). I guess I identify with him. since In the Army you more times that you will want you have to do stuff you don't agree with. Make sense? The vast majority of my characters are Arcane spellcasters, mainly sorcerers. If this isn't Baker's doing, then who DID make this decision? Who is the one person that is to blame?
Stigger 01-23-08, 04:55 PM	Doubtful there is a single person this could be blamed on. The whole 4e FR team had to have signed onto it on some level... for all we know it came from on high and some corporate weenie none of us have ever even heard of 'suggested' it to someone and we're stuck with it. Or maybe they really do think these are all great ideas... doubtful we're ever really going to know one way or another. Really, with all the ideas that probably fly around the WotC ideas, no one may really know who's responsible anymore.
Storm_Silverhand 01-23-08, 05:33 PM	Heya, Cyric knew her true name, so I wonder if that played a role, somehow? Although for all the talk of true names and such, I can never seem to find any mechanics on that. Maybe in Tome of Magic? Who knows. Going from pure logic, rather than anything that's ever been printed anywhere... Ariel Manx is the true name of Midnight the mortal. Midnight the Mortal ascended and became a part of the entity known as Mystra (formerly Mystryl, daughter of Selune and Shar). Ariel Manx is not Mystra's true name. In fact, once Midnight ascended, it probably ceased to be her true name as well, especially as she began to blend with Mystra's essence. (Yes, I am aware of using the true name in a story I pushed to my LJ fairly recently, just in case anyone is paying attention... It was because I hadn't really stopped to think about how illogical it would be to assume Midnight's true name was also Mystra's true name.) Also - that triadic greeting sounds suspiciously familiar... :incog:
Charles Phipps 01-23-08, 05:57 PM	Lolth and Sehaine Moonbow are all going to stay and so is Corellon because they're the same deity. Instead, they may have something stupid like Selune be Sehaine. The schools, according to Mr. Baker, are GONE and instead, people will have to use "implements", like wands and staves and such. I am sorry, but that is not something that appeals to me in any way, shape or form. Why? It's still Fireball.
msatran 01-23-08, 06:33 PM	No, it isn't. You have to roll to hit with your fireball, and they don't have to save, you just have to overcome their resistance. Do you have any idea how bad this is for tournament play? As far as I'm concerned, if the DM at the D+D open insists on running 4.0 behind a screen, he can just crit us and pop us off at will. All rolls need to be out in the open with this system, or it's not fair to players. And even if your DM is a complete !@#$$! to you, you still had a 1 in 20 chance to save. Not anymore.
Charles Phipps 01-23-08, 06:45 PM	Honestly, you should have always had to roll to hit with fireballs and I say that as a long time mage player.
Alediran 01-23-08, 08:16 PM	It's an area effect, it doesn't matters if it lands just in your head or five foots at your side, it's still going to hurt. Precision (ranged touch attacks) are for ray spells.
DarkZephyr 01-23-08, 11:57 PM	Lolth and Sehaine Moonbow are all going to stay and so is Corellon because they're the same deity. Instead, they may have something stupid like Selune be Sehaine. Why? It's still Fireball. Lolth, Sehaine Moonbow and Corellon are all the same deity?!?! Or am I misunderstanding you? As for fireballs, my spellcasters would prefer to shoot them from their fingertips rather than wands, thank you very much. To me, this will cheapen the whole concept of arcane spellcaster. Anyone can pick up a wand and wave it about.
GreenKnight 01-24-08, 12:31 AM	As for fireballs, my spellcasters would prefer to shoot them from their fingertips rather than wands, thank you very much. And you can still do that. Implements just make your spellcasting better. To me, this will cheapen the whole concept of arcane spellcaster. Anyone can pick up a wand and wave it about. Yeah, but only a Wizard can make lightning bolts shoot out of one, which is as it should be.
MarkusTay63 01-24-08, 12:40 AM	As for fireballs, my spellcasters would prefer to shoot them from their fingertips rather than wands, thank you very much. To me, this will cheapen the whole concept of arcane spellcaster. Anyone can pick up a wand and wave it about.But waving wands is SO much fun! http://www.butterbier.de/Icons/smilieOutstanding.gif
Charles Phipps 01-24-08, 01:06 AM	Lolth, Sehaine Moonbow and Corellon are all the same deity?!?! That was poorly said. "Corellon, Lolth, and Sehaine are staying because they're the same deities in 4E Core as they are in the Realms."
Storm_Silverhand 01-24-08, 03:43 AM	Heya, That was poorly said. "Corellon, Lolth, and Sehaine are staying because they're the same deities in 4E Core as they are in the Realms." Except that there's the possibility that Selune and Sehanine are the same deity in the Realms. Gods, what a mess... :nonono:
msatran 01-24-08, 03:46 AM	Don't you understand? To them, it's not a mess. It's just them being lazy because they just say "What's the difference between moon god A and moon god B?" They're bean counters, Storm. And all bean counters do is count their beans and fart a lot. And well, they farted out the 4e Realms, and it stinks. A lot.
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 09:08 AM	-You always have such a way with words.
selunatic2397 01-24-08, 09:18 AM	Heya, Except that there's the possibility that Selune and Sehanine are the same deity in the Realms. Gods, what a mess... :nonono: I am predicting that because Sehinine is Selune, that soon the devs will just giggle and say that Lolth was really Shar all along... Gosh isn't that just COOL, AWESOME, and SICK?!?!!! Actually...no...but I saw it coming when they said that Lolth was the elven new moon goddess and sehinine was Selune all along.
Storm_Silverhand 01-24-08, 05:28 PM	Heya, I am predicting that because Sehinine is Selune, that soon the devs will just giggle and say that Lolth was really Shar all along... Gosh isn't that just COOL, AWESOME, and SICK?!?!!! Actually...no...but I saw it coming when they said that Lolth was the elven new moon goddess and sehinine was Selune all along. Yeah, they've dropped enough hints about this already. :(
DarkZephyr 01-24-08, 08:36 PM	And you can still do that. Implements just make your spellcasting better. Why would a stick make it better? Ugh. That was poorly said. "Corellon, Lolth, and Sehaine are staying because they're the same deities in 4E Core as they are in the Realms." Oh thank goodness, I almost had an aneurysm. I know people might think I am dumb for taking what you said the way that I did, but with what WotC is doing to D&D, I am at a point where I think any strange and stupid scenario is possible concerning the Realms. I have read somewhere that at least in some circles, Kali is seen as the dark side of Shiva, so I thought it might be something along those lines. I am predicting that because Sehinine is Selune, that soon the devs will just giggle and say that Lolth was really Shar all along... Gosh isn't that just COOL, AWESOME, and SICK?!?!!! Actually...no...but I saw it coming when they said that Lolth was the elven new moon goddess and sehinine was Selune all along. That would NOT be cool and awesome, although I have been suspecting as much these last few days. But I pray to my real-life God that its not the case. I would rather see Lolth set her sights on Shar's domain, snuff the b**** out and take her place that way. I used to find Shar interesting and somewhat likeable in an Erica Kane sort of way. Now I just genuinely hate her. What's this about Lolth being the new elven moon goddess?
GreenKnight 01-24-08, 09:01 PM	Why would a stick make it better? Ugh. Why would a stick be able to chuck a spell on its own? Is the second really so much better then the first? Personally I prefer the first, but to each their own. What's this about Lolth being the new elven moon goddess? From THIS (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071221) article. "Sehanine, god of the full moon" "Lolth, god of the new moon"
MarkusTay63 01-25-08, 12:17 PM	I heard Chuck Norris was going to be the new god of pwnage, in the awesome, cool, goovy, far-out, funky-fresh world that is 4e. :P He musta killed Drizzt and took his stuff... ;) Anyway, why are we getting magic based on using wands? Because Harry Potter uses wands and that whole generaion is just the right demographic that WotC is aiming this new edition at. The 'kiddies' all want to be like Harry. http://www.butterbier.de/Icons/smilie_HarrryPotter2.gif Its the whole "strike while the iron is hot" marketing strategy, just like 3e was released timely with LotR. The fantasy genre is a hot item right now, so Hasbro's cashing-in big time.
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 12:22 PM	Anyway, why are we getting magic based on using wands? Because Harry Potter uses wands and that whole generaion is just the right demographic that WotC is aiming this new edition at. The 'kiddies' all want to be like Harry. http://www.butterbier.de/Icons/smilie_HarrryPotter2.gif -While I don't know if I actually buy it, that was one of the first things I thought of when I learned that Wizards would be primarily utilizing wands, staves and 'orbs' to cast spells, in lieu of other material components.
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 12:50 PM	Mostly I always hated that Wizards were restricted to Spell Books. I wanted Wands and implements like Mage: The Ascension since late Second Edition.
MarkusTay63 01-25-08, 12:58 PM	Oh, I'm all for the change, don't get me wrong, and I'm also a Potter fan, but I can see a little clever marketing strategy behind this. If they do commercials, you don't think they will show young people waving wands and speaking Latinesque gibberish, while all sorts of amazing things happen? Anyhow, I always used a system of spell-foci - you can even see a part of my adaption in my Elven Netbook article on the Elven Paragon PrC. Casting spells with your focus grants a bonus, casting them with a different focus grants no bonuses or penalties, and casting spells without a focus either requires material components, or a penalty to your casting level. Also, Ive always used rolls to determine if spells go off or not, along with backfires and the ability to cast spells above your normal levels. After all, I wouldn't want to miss out on an opportunity to re-create a Sorceror's Apprentice style scenario. ;)
Bluenose 01-25-08, 01:13 PM	Oh, I'm all for the change, don't get me wrong, and I'm also a Potter fan, but I can see a little clever marketing strategy behind this. If they do commercials, you don't think they will show young people waving wands and speaking Latinesque gibberish, while all sorts of amazing things happen? Anyhow, I always used a system of spell-foci - you can even see a part of my adaption in my Elven Netbook article on the Elven Paragon PrC. Casting spells with your focus grants a bonus, casting them with a different focus grants no bonuses or penalties, and casting spells without a focus either requires material components, or a penalty to your casting level. Also, Ive always used rolls to determine if spells go off or not, along with backfires and the ability to cast spells above your normal levels. After all, I wouldn't want to miss out on an opportunity to re-create a Sorceror's Apprentice style scenario. ;) Some of what you're suggesting sounds very like the things that appear to be happening with the various implements. It seems that wizards will be making attack rolls for spells, with a chance that they won't beat the targets resistance and presumably a chance that they will fail outright (rolling a 1). Wands and other implements seem likely to provide a bonus to your attack roll, provided it's the sort of spell that the wand can help. You'll nr perfectly capable of casting without anything, but you'll get a bonus if you have the right focus item. Whether material components will still be in is another question, and I haven't seen an answer anywhere. I would expect them to be involved with the ritual magic that casters have access to.
GreenKnight 01-25-08, 01:49 PM	provided it's the sort of spell that the wand can help. You'll nr perfectly capable of casting without anything, but you'll get a bonus if you have the right focus item That's actually changed. WotC's Michele Carter has posted a brief update on the use of wizards' implements: "Well, I know better than to poke the bear(s), but I've been working on magic items all day and I'm punchy: [Regarding:] "Staffs are for rays and cones, wands for long distance control, while orb stands for blasts, terrain control, and retributive and perception based effects." This was true at the time it was written, and as with a few other small details, it's changed since then. Spells are not based on the implements you use to cast them. Wizards still choose a primary implement (and that choice is a meaningful one), but you can cast any spell through any implement with equal effectiveness."
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 02:37 PM	-There's going to be an entire generations of fans, one day, reading Forgotten Realms novels, going, "Huh? Components? Spellbooks? What's up with that?"
Fabius Maximus 01-25-08, 07:13 PM	Well, books are still useful for recording spells...
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 11:33 AM	Some of what you're suggesting sounds very like the things that appear to be happening with the various implements.Thats why I liked what I was hearing - a lot of 4e sounds like houserules I've been using since 1e. WotC's Michele Carter has posted a brief update on the use of wizards' implements: "Well, I know better than to poke the bear(s), but I've been working on magic items all day and I'm punchy: [Regarding:] "Staffs are for rays and cones, wands for long distance control, while orb stands for blasts, terrain control, and retributive and perception based effects." This was true at the time it was written, and as with a few other small details, it's changed since then. Spells are not based on the implements you use to cast them. Wizards still choose a primary implement (and that choice is a meaningful one), but you can cast any spell through any implement with equal effectiveness."That is UTTER GARBAGE!!! :banghead: This guy just ruined what could have been the best rules yet. He thinks wizard-items are like guns, and the only difference is the type of munitions they 'shoot'? This sounds like it is set-up for a video game! (and a cr@ppy one at that) "Hey! I just picked-up a Staff upgrade, I'm able to deliver some real damage now!" Ugh!!! :headexplo He obviously has NEVER read a single fantasy novel or any myths or folkolore. He needs to go back to writing Obituaries for the Neew York Times, where his depressing talents are better suited. :ahem:
XHereticX 01-26-08, 11:56 AM	Thats why I liked what I was hearing - a lot of 4e sounds like houserules I've been using since 1e. That is UTTER GARBAGE!!! :banghead: This guy just ruined what could have been the best rules yet. He thinks wizard-items are like guns, and the only difference is the type of munitions they 'shoot'? This sounds like it is set-up for a video game! (and a cr@ppy one at that) "Hey! I just picked-up a Staff upgrade, I'm able to deliver some real damage now!" Ugh!!! :headexplo He obviously has NEVER read a single fantasy novel or any myths or folkolore. He needs to go back to writing Obituaries for the Neew York Times, where his depressing talents are better suited. :ahem: I actually like the new rule, metamagic and crap like that has always ruined the mage for me.
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 12:14 PM	Never used meta-magic, I found it too unwieldy for a smooth-running game. But having 'spell foci' shoot different stuff sounds an awful lot like first-person shooters (which I can't stand), where the object of the game is to get 'pick-ups' to increase your firepower. They've taken all the depth and mystery out of magic, and turned it into 'ordinance'. :(
XHereticX 01-26-08, 12:18 PM	Never used meta-magic, I found it too unwieldy for a smooth-running game. But having 'spell foci' shoot different stuff sounds an aweful lot like first-person shooters (which I can't stand), where the object of the game is to get 'pick-ups' to increase your firepower. They've taken all the depth and mystery out of magic, and turned it into 'ordinance'. :( FPS's are quite fun, it's a test of your reactions, your focus, and your knowledge of real-time calculation. They have given magic far greater ability to be utilized and practically understood by the everyday adventurer, though there is still powerful magic out there that defies logic. I personally think it's a great balance.
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 12:22 PM	FPS's are quite fun, it's a test of your reactions, your focus, and your knowledge of real-time calculation.Which has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with RPing and D&D. :(
XHereticX 01-26-08, 12:25 PM	Which has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with RPing and D&D. :( Use your imagination MT63, isn't that what D&D is about? You shoudn't build walls to limit what can be utilized in a D&D context.
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 12:30 PM	Spell Foci had TONS of potential for augmenting a mage's abilities, but now it appears that they are just becoming the wizard's versions of weapons. This puts magic-users abilities SECOND, and his gear FIRST - that doesn't sound like a vedeo game to you? I don't want to get a new staff and have NEW abilities, I want my existing ones to get better. It takes all the flavor out of the class when the gear matters more. Well, I just went from someone who was definately buying the new core books, to someone who is going to look them over first in the store, and then make my decision. Way to go, WotC... keep it up. :(
XHereticX 01-26-08, 12:35 PM	Well they did say with 4e they were going to lessen a character's dependence on "phat lewt" and more on their abilities. Which is why they reduced the dependence on magic items. The items are now more of a conduit (symbolically and literally) of a character. So now the focus is not on having the best stuff but instead having stuff so you can focus your abilities.
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 12:49 PM	That take I like, but it appears that the guy in chaarge of designing those rules is completely clueless.
GreenKnight 01-26-08, 12:53 PM	I'm pretty sure Michele Carter isn't a he. :P
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 01:07 PM	Oh.... no wonder.... :yuck: I was hoping he was French... or something... :rolleyes:
DarkZephyr 01-26-08, 01:13 PM	FPS's are quite fun, it's a test of your reactions, your focus, and your knowledge of real-time calculation. They have given magic far greater ability to be utilized and practically understood by the everyday adventurer, though there is still powerful magic out there that defies logic. I personally think it's a great balance. I think its crap incarnate. If magic is all about being "understood by the everyday adventurer" then what's the point in any sort of arcane spell caster class at all? Use your imagination MT63, isn't that what D&D is about? You shoudn't build walls to limit what can be utilized in a D&D context. You think having to use stupid lame arsed implements ISN'T limiting D&D??? I really am mystified as to why anyone who uses spellcasters could possibly be excited about ANY of this. Am I the oldest person on this board or something (30)? I wish J.K. Rowling had stuck with being a homemaker. She is Shar's avatar on Earth, I think.
GreenKnight 01-26-08, 01:14 PM	What's the problem with that, though? It's basically the same as before, except you don't gotta switch back and forth between an orb, staff, and wand depending on what spell you're casting in order to get the most from the spell, and you still don't need an implement to cast a spell, nor are you limited to one. You think having to use stupid lame arsed implements ISN'T limiting D&D??? In comparison to what? Having to carry around bat guano and sulphur in order to cast a Fireball spell? I really am mystified as to why anyone who uses spellcasters could possibly be excited about ANY of this. Am I the oldest person on this board or something (30)? I wish J.K. Rowling had stuck with being a homemaker. She is Shar's avatar on Earth, I think. You do realize, right, that the image of the wand/orb/staff wielding Wizard is an old one? Older then Harry Potter? If Harry Potter was the impetus for this change, then great. It's a change that should've been made a long time ago. And on the plus side, a Rogue with Use Magic Device will no longer be able to run around with half-a-dozen wands, as they're now useless to him.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 01:23 PM	I think its crap incarnate. If magic is all about being "understood by the everyday adventurer" then what's the point in any sort of arcane spell caster class at all? Um, most arcane spellcasters have been under the "everyday adventurer" context in D&D for over 30 years. They are no more "special" than fighters and rogues (who have unusual powers of their own). Magic in that sense is just another utility to build power. Of course I am not saying there cannot still be ancient and mysterious, for the magic of the ancient past can't just be utilized by any ordinary adventurer. There is utilized magic, and there is mysterious magic. That is the way it has always been, and 4e just makes it easier to understand and control utilized magic, and mysterious magic as well once it is able to be utilized. You think having to use stupid lame arsed implements ISN'T limiting D&D??? I really am mystified as to why anyone who uses spellcasters could possibly be excited about ANY of this. Am I the oldest person on this board or something (30)? I wish J.K. Rowling had stuck with being a homemaker. She is Shar's avatar on Earth, I think. I think that confusing stone-set rules limited D&D, and in 4e they are ridding us of those nuiscences.
DarkZephyr 01-26-08, 01:27 PM	You do realize, right, that the image of the wand/orb/staff wielding Wizard is an old one? Older then Harry Potter? If Harry Potter was the impetus for this change, then great. It's a change that should've been made a long time ago. And on the plus side, a Rogue with Use Magic Device will no longer be able to run around with half-a-dozen wands, as they're now useless to him. I used plenty of wands and staves with the older rules. But it sure was nice not HAVING to do it. The old image of the Wizard holding the staff doesn't mean that the wizard was required to use it for his magic to function properly. Its nice for you that you think this change is so delightful, but I think its nasty. I play Forgotten Realms games for the sake of playing Forgotten Realms Games. This is no longer Forgotten Realms, for me, or even D&D. Its dead.
GreenKnight 01-26-08, 01:30 PM	I used plenty of wands and staves with the older rules. But it sure was nice not HAVING to do it. The old image of the Wizard holding the staff doesn't mean that the wizard was required to use it for his magic to function properly. And you still don't. Your magic doesn't stop working because you're not using one. Using one makes your magic better, but not using one doesn't make your magic worse.
DarkZephyr 01-26-08, 01:43 PM	Um, most arcane spellcasters have been under the "everyday adventurer" context in D&D for over 30 years. They are no more "special" than fighters and rogues (who have unusual powers of their own). Magic in that sense is just another utility to build power. Of course I am not saying there cannot still be ancient and mysterious, for the magic of the ancient past can't just be utilized by any ordinary adventurer. What ancient past? All of that fell under Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight and the Weave. No artifacts that are discovered in ancient ruins should logically function. Logically, they should now only be interesting paper weights. The "ancient past" of FR magic has been blasted away by Cyric and Shar. How can it not have been? If staves, wands, orbs and the like are now just "focuses", then ancient artifacts are trash. They didn't create ALL of them in the "ancient past" to be "focuses" after all. There is utilized magic, and there is mysterious magic. That is the way it has always been, and 4e just makes it easier to understand and control utilized magic, and mysterious magic as well once it is able to be utilized. So in other words, D&D is being dumbed down. Exactly as I thought. I think that confusing stone-set rules limited D&D, and in 4e they are ridding us of those nuiscences. Glad things are working out so great for you. As for me, I see the new rules as the limiting ones. I don't think I am the only one, either, but oh well. To each their own. I have a right to my opinions and a right to find this all horrible. I am not required to jump up and down with excitement over all of this. You will keep playing the game and having a grand old time and I won't be playing it anymore at all, unless they make a Neverwinter Nights 3 PC game or something, and stick to the older rules and lore. For me, Its not just about the death of Mystra and having to use sticks and orbs, that for me is only a part of it. You will be happy to stick around, I will be happy to walk away. The rich lore that I loved, the story-archs and story-lines that I loved, all gone, so there is nothing for me to stick around for. And you still don't. Your magic doesn't stop working because you're not using one. Using one makes your magic better, but not using one doesn't make your magic worse. And this concept annoys me to no end. Why should a stick with no magical properties of its own "make it better"? Or am I missing something here? I have to say that I am very curious to see how they explain this. I don't see how Mystra's death makes it so that using implements makes everything better. It will be interesting to see what sort of details they write to explain this.
GreenKnight 01-26-08, 02:21 PM	And this concept annoys me to no end. Why should a stick with no magical properties of its own "make it better"? Or am I missing something here? Why does this bother you? Did it bother you when you needed bat guano to make a fireball work? There's nothing inherently magical about bat guano. So what is it about bat guano that makes it possible to create a 20 ft. radius sphere of fire? And why can't you create one without the bat guano? Why's it so hard to comprehend a staff, wand, orb, or other implement boosting your magic when you needed stuff which was clearly not magical in the slightest to even make your magic work to begin with? Besides, you can have magical qualities without the thing having the ability to cast spells on its own, and without having Rogues running around chucking Fireballs from Wands they've picked up.
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 02:45 PM	I have no problem with Foci increasing a mages ability - what I have a problem with is the designer in charge of this part has decided that each item works better for a different effect - think Hand Grenades, Bazookas, Shootguns, Automatics, etc... It should work like this - +1 = Jewlery - Pendants, Rings, stones... +2 = Orbs - Crystal balls, tiaras, +3 = Wands & Crowns (helms) +4 = Rods & Mantles (Capes) +5 = Staves & other minor artifacts That would be a boost to the caster's level for determining spell effects, not determine what kind of effects he is good at! That should be determined by the PCs specializations (Feats, PrCs, and 4e's Paths). Items should benefit the wielder, not determine what he does. Thers a LOT more to it then that, but thats it in a nutshell. Items have to be 'attuned' to the caster to provide maximum benefit, and their are also penalties for not using a component (doing away with certain feats, and thusly simplifying the rules further). Therefore, IMG, you can cast spells without material components with no penalty, as long as you are using a +1 Foci. That gives the added effect of having players who go the extra mile, and RP obtaining spell materials, an extra +1 (by not receiving the penalty). There was a way on incorporating all of this on top of 3e, and actually simplifying stuff, rather then add in the complication of having the right Foci to 'maximize' your effect.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 06:00 PM	I'm pretty sure Michele Carter isn't a he. :P -Damn you, GreenKnight. I wanted to point that out!
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:19 PM	What ancient past? All of that fell under Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight and the Weave. No artifacts that are discovered in ancient ruins should logically function. Logically, they should now only be interesting paper weights. The "ancient past" of FR magic has been blasted away by Cyric and Shar. How can it not have been? If staves, wands, orbs and the like are now just "focuses", then ancient artifacts are trash. They didn't create ALL of them in the "ancient past" to be "focuses" after all. Hmm, so what's Elven High Magic, chopped liver?:D What's Maztican Plume magic? What's the Wu-Jen arts? What's the magic of the Sarrukh? All that ancient magic's still there, and now they are more unpredictable than ever due to the destruction of the Weave. So in other words, D&D is being dumbed down. Exactly as I thought. That is objective, but whatever, like the King says, "Have it your way." Glad things are working out so great for you. As for me, I see the new rules as the limiting ones. I don't think I am the only one, either, but oh well. To each their own. I have a right to my opinions and a right to find this all horrible. I am not required to jump up and down with excitement over all of this. You will keep playing the game and having a grand old time and I won't be playing it anymore at all, unless they make a Neverwinter Nights 3 PC game or something, and stick to the older rules and lore. For me, Its not just about the death of Mystra and having to use sticks and orbs, that for me is only a part of it. You will be happy to stick around, I will be happy to walk away. The rich lore that I loved, the story-archs and story-lines that I loved, all gone, so there is nothing for me to stick around for. To each his own my friend, to each his own. I respect your decision. Frankly there are a lot of changes that I don't like either, but I aien't letting that keep me down. No, I try to adapt to the world, rather than make the world adjust to me. It dosen't stop me from complaining, but I take it and move on.
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 06:21 PM	-Damn you, GreenKnight. I wanted to point that out!When girls start designing rules for geek-games, its the beginning of the end. Next we'll have Care Bears and My Little Pony in FR. :rolleyes:
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:22 PM	When girls start designing rules for geek-games, its the beginning of the end. Next we'll have Care Bears and My Little Pony in FR. :rolleyes: Hmm, don't let Rina and Storm catch you saying that...:) But personally, girl geeks have always perplexed me as well. Shoudn't they be more focused on shopping and dating or something. :p
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 06:29 PM	I'm not saying females are un-intelligent, I just feel they are better-suited to writing fluff. Men just tend to see things differently then women, which lends itself to mechanical applications. Certainly not true in every case, but its been my experience that that is how it is most of the time. Men were designed to be the problem-solvers (hunter mentality), and women the care-givers. I certainly wish a female had written out the events leading up to 4e - I'm sure it would have been more plausible, because they have a better grasp of emotional realities. And that whole stupid love-triangle thing would have NEVER happened! :bored:
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:35 PM	I'm not saying females are un-intelligent, I just feel they are better-suited to writing fluff. Men just tend to see things differently then women, which lends itself to mechanical applications. : Hmm, I have high skill with storycrafting, but am horrible with mechanics, does that make me a girl?:rolleyes: Lets not toss around uneeded stereotypes please.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 06:41 PM	When girls start designing rules for geek-games, its the beginning of the end. Next we'll have Care Bears and My Little Pony in FR. :rolleyes: But personally, girl geeks have always perplexed me as well. Shoudn't they be more focused on shopping and dating or something. :p -Zandilar is going to *****-slap both of you now! :rofl:
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 07:19 PM	Actually, I have one thing that I think should be dealt with that's a bit of a hot potato. Anyone upset the main Female Character of the Realms is dead? There's no real equivalent Female of Power equivalent.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 07:23 PM	Actually, I have one thing that I think should be dealt with that's a bit of a hot potato. Anyone upset the main Female Character of the Realms is dead? There's no real equivalent Female of Power equivalent. -Zandilar is quite livid that the rule of Alusair as regent, and Mermeen Lhal (Sp?) in Arabel are basically being glossed over, as well as the deaths of Mystra and possibly Eilistraee.
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 07:26 PM	I confess, I myself had a problem with the fact it's a King replacing the Ruler of Cormyr (two in a row!) I would be interested, however, in a female Open Lord of Waterdeep and will probably ask Richard Baker about it.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 07:28 PM	Hmm, it would be interesting if Tyrmather turns out to be a matriarchical society.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 07:34 PM	Hmm, it would be interesting if Tyrmather turns out to be a matriarchical society. -Someone raised a very comical, and good point, concerning the Dragonborn. Why does a race of creatures hatch from eggs have females that have breasts? Dragonborn weren't echidnas or platypi (sp?), last time I checked. :)
XHereticX 01-26-08, 07:37 PM	-Someone raised a very comical, and good point, concerning the Dragonborn. Why does a race of creatures hatch from eggs have females that have breasts? Dragonborn weren't echidnas or platypi (sp?), last time I checked. :) Well, after a hard day of chasing "phat lewt." The "great heroes" need their round and squishies' any time, any place.:D Plus it gives a whole new definition to the term bestiality:cool:
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 07:40 PM	-There does not exist a proper smiley to reflect my response to that. The best I can do is some combination of: :rolleyes: + :surrender + :uh-huh: + :nonono: + :mymy: + :thinks: + :blink: + :doh: (Not necessarily in that order)
XHereticX 01-26-08, 07:43 PM	-There does not exist a proper smiley to reflect my response to that. The best I can do is some combination of: :rolleyes: + :surrender + :uh-huh: + :nonono: + :mymy: + :thinks: + :blink: + :doh: (Not necessarily in that order) Two in the pink, and one in the stink:D
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 07:46 PM	Two in the pink, and one in the stink:D -Now, that's a mantra to live by! :rofl:!
XHereticX 01-26-08, 07:48 PM	-Now, that's a mantra to live by! :rofl:! All is good when there is sex, drugs, and viagra my friend.
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 07:57 PM	Wow... :rolleyes: Another perfectly good thread dragged through the mud by Delta. And I wasn't trying to insult women LK, I was just pointing out that BOTH sexes have their strengths and weaknesses, and should play to them. Also, I'm very upset about the 'magic foci' as arsenal take, which may have colored my responses somewhat. If anything, a wand should be like a Gunsight, not the gun itself. :( Will we have any prominent female rulers or gods? A Female Open lord of Waterdeep, perhaps? Or perhaps an ascension for Siamoprhe or Red knight?Wecome to FR: 1479.... http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Gor_Pic.jpg I didn't want to post this there, and re-start all the spam on that thread. I guess its a Man's World in the future... :P
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:01 PM	Wow... :rolleyes: Another perfectly good thread dragged through the mud by Delta. And I wasn't trying to insult women LK, I was just pointing out that BOTH sexes have their strengths and weaknesses, and should play to them. Also, I'm very upset about the 'magic foci' as arsenal take, which may have colored my responses somewhat. If anything, a wand should be like a Gunsight, not the gun itself. :( It's funny how the dirty one is able to influence our minds like this. Things have been...different ever since he became a Hand.:detect: Your assessment is objective and highly biased from your own personal experiences, though they may have merit. They should not be used a s a guideline through.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:08 PM	And I wasn't trying to insult women LK, I was just pointing out that BOTH sexes have their strengths and weaknesses, and should play to them. -She still might *****-slap you. :P -Personally, I don't like the idea of wands/orbs/staves, and whatever augmenting spells, being the impetus for spells, etc.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:10 PM	- -Personally, I don't like the idea of wands/orbs/staves, and whatever augmenting spells, being the impetus for spells, etc. "sigh", it looks like I'm the only supporter now...
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:18 PM	"sigh", it looks like I'm the only supporter now... -I never liked it from the beginning, so I'm not guilty of switching sides or anything. The only reason I liked spellbooks was because of the idea of 'Words of Power' from Lord of the Rings, which could be adopted to make sense of why reading a book suddenly gave you magical powers. Personally, I prefer Sorcerers the most, or at least the concept that you simply conjure magic.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:18 PM	You have to admit though that ditching the Vanacian magic system was a huge step forward.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:27 PM	You have to admit though that ditching the Vanacian magic system was a huge step forward. -Not really. I like the Vanacian magic system. Sure, mages run out of spells, but why shouldn't they? They've got to tire eventually. In an ideal world, mages would use a magic system more akin to the Psionics system. I am fond of that one, especially with augmenting manifestations. I based my entire 'Ki System' around that. -It also adds an entire new element to the mage, that I find a little fun, as both a player and a DM- Survival Mode. :)
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:30 PM	-Not really. I like the Vanacian magic system. Sure, mages run out of spells, but why shouldn't they? They've got to tire eventually. In an ideal world, mages would use a magic system more akin to the Psionics system. I am fond of that one, especially with augmenting manifestations. I based my entire 'Ki System' around that. -It also adds an entire new element to the mage, that I find a little fun, as both a player and a DM- Survival Mode. :) Bah, the concept itself is screwed up. Personally I am for the belief that mages draw upon their internal spirit energy (mana) to power spells which are woven to interact with the outside world. It makes magic a lot of mystical and a lot less academic.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:36 PM	Bah, the concept itself is screwed up. Personally I am for the belief that mages draw upon their internal spirit energy (mana) to power spells which are woven to interact with the outside world. It makes magic a lot of mystical and a lot less academic. -Much like Sorcerers. That, as I said, I like. I don't like the idea of Spellbooks 100%, though I can deal. -The 'sticking point', I think, concerning Vanacian spellcasting is the fact that mages eventually run out of spell to cast every day.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:39 PM	-Much like Sorcerers. That, as I said, I like. I don't like the idea of Spellbooks 100%, though I can deal. -The 'sticking point', I think, concerning Vanacian spellcasting is the fact that mages eventually run out of spell to cast every day. Which leaves them as sitting ducks when they cannot rest.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:43 PM	-As I said, as both a DM and a player, I think "Survival Mode" creates a fun new dynamic to arguably the most powerful class in the game. "Mwhahaha, I'm throwing Fireballs without rhyme or reason, blowing up everything that I see. What's this? I ran out of spells, and all those Bugbears are angry at me. Oh crap..." :D
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 08:44 PM	For me, I think the new magic system will work just fine. So long as the Spells are roughly the same and I can cast more fireballs then I'll be happy as a clam. Also, I hate rememorization.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:51 PM	For me, I think the new magic system will work just fine. So long as the Spells are roughly the same and I can cast more fireballs then I'll be happy as a clam. Also, I hate rememorization. -It's scientifically proven that clams live lives of sorrow, distress and anguish...:teach: (:P) -I'll admit, I don't fully understand the new system of magic, with power sources, rituals, and all that stuff. I haven't followed the mechanics to 4e very closely, as I'm not converting, however.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:53 PM	-It's scientifically proven that clams live lives of sorrow, distress and anguish...:teach: (:P) . Which is why it appeals to me. Now the D&D mage is finally starting to embrace the true roots of it's background and ditching an alternative system that for years has hindedred it's growth. The mage has essentially changed from vulnerable book-geek to power-hungry spellblaster, a change I appreciate.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 09:03 PM	Hmm, don't let Rina and Storm catch you saying that...:) I caught it!
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 09:03 PM	Which is why it appeals to me. -Because clams live lives of sorrow, distress and anguish? The mage has essentially changed from vulnerable book-geek to power-hungry spellblaster, a change I appreciate. -Everyone has limits to their power. Running out of spells was simply one way to reflect it. I'd prefer a system where, after running out of spells, it was possible to cast more, but at a cost (-1 CON temporarily per spell level, or something to that effect, maybe...).
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:04 PM	-Because clams live lives of sorrow, distress and anguish? The nectar of the gods my friend.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 09:05 PM	-Someone raised a very comical, and good point, concerning the Dragonborn. Why does a race of creatures hatch from eggs have females that have breasts? Dragonborn weren't echidnas or platypi (sp?), last time I checked. :) The "dragonborn breasts" issue is being debated ad infinitum on the 4E boards. When I go to those boards, I try to skip or skim over any such debates, I admit.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 09:13 PM	The nectar of the gods my friend. -Oh, alright. The "dragonborn breasts" issue is being debated ad infinitum on the 4E boards. When I go to those boards, I try to skip or skim over any such debates, I admit. -It's funny, people analytically debating it, I'll admit. :)
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:14 PM	-It's funny, people analytically debating it, I'll admit. :) Ahh, us geeks can't get laid in real life, so we find many strange ways to mend that;)
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 09:18 PM	Ahh, us geeks can't get laid in real life, so we find many strange ways to mend that;) -Speak for yourself, dude. :cool:
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:20 PM	-Speak for yourself, dude. :cool: Last I recall I was giving an explanation to a certain Lord Karsus on his own pitiful state of being.;)
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 09:21 PM	Well, if they were still half-dragons, then I would say the breast were vestigal, but since thats not the case, I give up on trying to apply scientific principles to the schlock 4e fluff. :rolleyes:
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:23 PM	I don't think they are as much breasts as overly extended chest muscles.;) Either that or Tiamat certainly has a great sense of humor.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 09:24 PM	Ahh, us geeks can't get laid in real life, so we find many strange ways to mend that;) What do you think the Konsort of Karsus is for, reading poetry?
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 09:24 PM	Last I recall I was giving an explanation to a certain Lord Karsus on his own pitiful state of being.;) -I am in a pitiful state of being, it's true. But, I still get some every now and then. I'm convinced my girlfriend hates me, however...:(
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:26 PM	What do you think the Konsort of Karsus is for, reading poetry? Pretty much. A upper-class courtesean is like a sex object, they sing, dance, and play lute, but when you want sex, they object.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 09:29 PM	Pretty much. A upper-class courtesean is like a sex object, they sing, dance, and play lute, but when you want sex, they object. Well, not in my case.:cool:
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:30 PM	Well, not in my case.:cool: I am quite sure acting as consort to an evil, insane elven archmage that thinks himself a god is an appropriate position for the faithful of Sune.:rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 09:32 PM	Karsus is not evil. He is probably just neutral.:)
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:32 PM	Karsus is not evil. He is probably just neutral evil.:) :cool:
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 09:58 PM	-Chaotic Neutral. So misunderstood.
XHereticX 01-27-08, 09:45 AM	-Chaotic Stupid. So misunderstood. I totally agree;)
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 10:58 AM	-Ha, ha, ha...Let's see how much you are laughing when I move your office cubicle next to DELTA's...:P
XHereticX 01-27-08, 11:02 AM	-Ha, ha, ha...Let's see how much you are laughing when I move your office cubicle next to DELTA's...:P Dealt with the problem of that possibility already. Delta is currently enjoying his little vacation in the Far Realm, giving me the opportunity to seize his huge collection of Playboy and Gallery. Bow, chicka, bow, wow!!!
DarkZephyr 01-27-08, 11:07 AM	Why does this bother you? Did it bother you when you needed bat guano to make a fireball work? There's nothing inherently magical about bat guano. So what is it about bat guano that makes it possible to create a 20 ft. radius sphere of fire? And why can't you create one without the bat guano? Why's it so hard to comprehend a staff, wand, orb, or other implement boosting your magic when you needed stuff which was clearly not magical in the slightest to even make your magic work to begin with? Besides, you can have magical qualities without the thing having the ability to cast spells on its own, and without having Rogues running around chucking Fireballs from Wands they've picked up. Perhaps you do have a point, when you put it that way. Maybe it will be better to not have to cart poop and the like everywhere you go. I guess concerning the use of ::swallow:: implements I will just have to wait and see how it turns out. Maybe it will be great. Maybe I am just more irritated by the loss of the schools of magic and am taking it out on the "implements" concept. Maybe I am taking all my frustrations over the drastic and horrible changes to the story and lore out on the implements. ::shrug:: We'll see. Plus I just didn't appreciate what I saw as the callous and insensitive way good old Mr. Baker put it when he said "The schools are dead, implements are in, long live the Impliments" or something to that effect. Maybe that sentence and how it was presented is what instantly turned me off to implements. Again, we'll see. I still don't like the implications though. I can see whole boring storylines surrounding the search for wand materials, etc. and even cults rising up around it, the "Cult of the Rowan Tree" or something ridiculous like that. I hope this doesn't happen. Hmm, so what's Elven High Magic, chopped liver?:D Isn't Elven Highmagic in the Realms from some old tree that basically amounts to a stolen chunk of the Weave that the elves kept? If the weave is dead, shouldn't that also cease to function? Of course, if it DOESN'T cease to function, I can see an interesting way in which Mystra/Midnight could make some sort of a come back, a part of her remaining alive in that tree or whatever it was. She could then be a smaller deity, but at least still alive, for goodness sake. Maybe she could become a consort to Corellon Larethian or something, where though she is a lesser deity now, she winds up having a presence in more than one crystal sphere. That would go a long way to placate someone like me while leaving behind the concept of a Deity of ALL Magic. :D. Yes, I know its a silly fantasy and won't happen, but one can dream. That being said, even if what you say works out the way you seem to think it will, a huge chunk of the ancient magic still has to logically be gone or at least changed.
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 11:17 AM	Isn't Elven Highmagic in the Realms from some old tree that basically amounts to a stolen chunk of the Weave that the elves kept? -In 2e, Elven High Magic had disappeared from the Faerūn, except for Evermeet. This was because of the Tree of Souls. Once planted, it is said that Elven High Magic would return, from a loci of where the tree was planted, at a rate of 1 mile per day, or something to that effect. The notion was scrapped in 3e. See the articles on the Tree of Souls and Elven High Magic in Elves of Faerūn.
XHereticX 01-27-08, 11:17 AM	Changed by not gone. The Weave was not magic incarnate itself, only a conduit. All that old magic stil exists, just far more unpredictable in nature (which actually makes it more exciting in my opinion). Try to be optimistic about the new edition and think of possible solutions instead of just moping around complaining all the time.:)
DarkZephyr 01-27-08, 11:56 AM	Try to be optimistic about the new edition and think of possible solutions instead of just moping around complaining all the time.:) Mr. Heretic, So far, as a new member of these forums, I have found that I enjoy many of your posts and I have found that I have a degree of respect for you. Let me just respond to you by saying that this is still a very new thing to me, something that I am not liking so far, and complaining and moping and venting and whining and crying and sobbing on these forums has been a great help to me. Have no fear, its something I will get over (the complaining and moping on these forums, that is, the whole change itself will take longer) soon enough. I take it that my complaints are annoying to you, and I can respect that, but conversely, I also find all the comments about how delighted people are at my beloved Mystra's death and all of the major changes to be just as annoying as you must find my complaints. No doubt you must see my forum handle or my avatar of Midnight and just roll your eyes to yourself and think to yourself "Here he goes again" and you likely do not enjoy my posts nearly as much as I enjoy yours, and for that, I am sorry, all I can do is ask for patience. I am not going to suggest people quit expressing their delight with the changes, and I will not suggest to you that you should be just as unhappy as I am and join me in moping and complaining about it. You and I have different views about this, but mine are no less worthy of expression than yours are, sir. Again, I am sorry if they interfere with your enjoyment of these boards, but I can say that it shouldn't last much longer. Hopefully I will be able to take your friendly advice very soon. :) -In 2e, Elven High Magic had disappeared from the Faerūn, except for Evermeet. This was because of the Tree of Souls. Once planted, it is said that Elven High Magic would return, from a loci of where the tree was planted, at a rate of 1 mile per day, or something to that effect. The notion was scrapped in 3e. See the articles on the Tree of Souls and Elven High Magic in Elves of Faerūn. Good old retconning, eh?
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 12:39 PM	Good old retconning, eh? -In this case, yes, thank G-d.
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 12:51 PM	I remember when Elven Magic was only good for making cookies... :P Still annoyed today about what I read yesterday - I don't like the idea of Staves becoming "Ray Guns", but perhaps I misinterpreted the meaning; I'll see for myself when the rules finally come out. Doesn't it strike the rest of you as odd, though, that the women in charge of this VERY important change to the rules is only getting around to actually writing the mechanics NOW? :uh-huh: I suppose we no longer need to playtest things, so long as they are cool. At least Eberron will have plenty of time to have all the errata applied to their setting - maybe Eberron will get 4.5. :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 12:55 PM	-A lot of their marketing stuff confuses me. For example, they are releaseing a 4e Adventure before the 4e Core Books are actually published. Said adventure is going to have 'Quick Rules', so you can play 4e without 4e actually being released yet. -But, remember, it's only the end of January. This stuff is going to be released in July? August? They work 5 days a week, 8 hours a day on this stuff. There's plenty of time for them to finish.
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 01:27 PM	So your saying they have even more time to f__k things up, eh? ;) The fact that they can give a set of 'quick rules' in a module scares the cr@p out of me. Just how simplistic have they made this game? :confused:
XHereticX 01-27-08, 02:37 PM	Mr. Heretic, So far, as a new member of these forums, I have found that I enjoy many of your posts and I have found that I have a degree of respect for you. Let me just respond to you by saying that this is still a very new thing to me, something that I am not liking so far, and complaining and moping and venting and whining and crying and sobbing on these forums has been a great help to me. Have no fear, its something I will get over (the complaining and moping on these forums, that is, the whole change itself will take longer) soon enough. I take it that my complaints are annoying to you, and I can respect that, but conversely, I also find all the comments about how delighted people are at my beloved Mystra's death and all of the major changes to be just as annoying as you must find my complaints. No doubt you must see my forum handle or my avatar of Midnight and just roll your eyes to yourself and think to yourself "Here he goes again" and you likely do not enjoy my posts nearly as much as I enjoy yours, and for that, I am sorry, all I can do is ask for patience. I am not going to suggest people quit expressing their delight with the changes, and I will not suggest to you that you should be just as unhappy as I am and join me in moping and complaining about it. You and I have different views about this, but mine are no less worthy of expression than yours are, sir. Again, I am sorry if they interfere with your enjoyment of these boards, but I can say that it shouldn't last much longer. Hopefully I will be able to take your friendly advice very soon. :) Good old retconning, eh? Oh, no no no, please don't take my retorts the wrong way. I have respect for you and your views and frankly I think most of the changes are crap as well. But being a newer Realms fan, I am looking forward to how this setting progresses from here and enjoy watching it evolve and grow. I understand and emphasize with your concerns and fully acknowledge your rights to complain. I do a bit of complaining myself on this board.:D
DarkZephyr 01-27-08, 02:41 PM	Changed by not gone. The Weave was not magic incarnate itself, only a conduit. All that old magic stil exists, just far more unpredictable in nature (which actually makes it more exciting in my opinion). So more "wild magic". I have never really dealt much with it except for when playing Baldur's Gate II, a spell would misfire and my Bhaalspawn's avatar would turn into Elminster. lol God I hated that, especially if the Bhaalspawn was a woman. lol She would have to walk around for awhile looking like Elminster, yet still speaking with a woman's voice. And Anomen would keep on tryin' to romance her, despite the beard and red pointy hat. lol So I suppose some amusing situations could come out of this. Oh, no no no, please don't take my retorts the wrong way. I have respect for you and your views and frankly I think most of the changes are crap as well. But being a newer Realms fan, I am looking forward to how this setting progresses from here and enjoy watching it evolve and grow. I understand and emphasize with your concerns and fully acknowledge your rights to complain. I do a bit of complaining myself on this board.:D Ok, great! Thanks for the clarification. :)
XHereticX 01-27-08, 02:47 PM	So more "wild magic". I have never really dealt much with it except for when playing Baldur's Gate II, a spell would misfire and my Bhaalspawn's avatar would turn into Elminster. lol God I hated that, especially if the Bhaalspawn was a woman. lol She would have to walk around for awhile looking like Elminster, yet still speaking with a woman's voice. And Anomen would keep on tryin' to romance her, despite the beard and red pointy hat. lol I like Wild Magic, because I think it is the way magic was supposed to be wielded. No spellbooks, no complex chains, no old academic bags choking on their own saliva, just pure, raw magic being blasted at the enemy, and an amen to that.;) Frankly things in the Realms are going to be more interesting from now on, whether that is good or bad I am not sure yet, but it's worth looking forward to. I miss Mystra, the Weave, and the Chosen as well, and feel that a fundamental part of Faerun has just been torn away. But when they throw you lemons, make sure you throw a hell of a lemonade party;)
DarkZephyr 01-27-08, 02:54 PM	I like Wild Magic, because I think it is the way magic was supposed to be wielded. No spellbooks, no complex chains, no old academic bags choking on their own saliva, just pure, raw magic being blasted at the enemy, and an amen to that.;) Frankly things in the Realms are going to be more interesting from now on, whether that is good or bad I am not sure yet, but it's worth looking forward to. I miss Mystra, the Weave, and the Chosen as well, and feel that a fundamental part of Faerun has just been torn away. But when they throw you lemons, make sure you throw a hell of a lemonade party;) How do you think Sorcerers and Warlocks are going to be dealt with? I hope they aren't done away with all together. I always play Sorcerers, and I have been wanting to try a Warlock. If they are going to stick around, do you think that they will have to use implements as well? Or will their own bodies and very selves continue to be the "focus"? Another thing to consider, concerning Warlocks, who's powers come from the lower planes, will anything happen to them now that the lower planes and the fiends have been reworked? The Hells, the Abyss, etc, and then complete lower planes vanishing. There are still infernal planes, though, so Warlocks could still exist.
XHereticX 01-27-08, 02:59 PM	How do you think Sorcerers and Warlocks are going to be dealt with? I hope they aren't done away with all together. I always play Sorcerers, and I have been wanting to try a Warlock. If they are going to stick around, do you think that they will have to use implements as well? Or will their own bodies and very selves continue to be the "focus"? Another thing to consider, concerning Warlocks, who's powers come from the lower planes, will anything happen to them now that the lower planes and the fiends have been reworked? The Hells, the Abyss, etc, and then complete lower planes vanishing. There are still infernal planes, though, so Warlocks could still exist. Warlocks powers' don't have to stem from an evil source, just one of supernatural eldritch origin. Sorcerers are currently on hiatus, as the current 4e Wizard is starting to get a little more wild himself, they need to find a new role for the sorcerer. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070314 http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070328 These articles provide more information about Warlocks in FR, enjoy:D
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-27-08, 03:04 PM	The "dragonborn breasts" issue is being debated ad infinitum on the 4E boards. When I go to those boards, I try to skip or skim over any such debates, I admit. *Ahem* Camel Humps
XHereticX 01-27-08, 03:08 PM	*Ahem* Camel Humps Eww, nobody likes bony *******, they have to be soft and squishie to appease all the kiddies (like me:D )!!! Consiter it a twisted form of Fan Service;)
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 03:19 PM	So your saying they having even more time to f__k things up, eh? ;) -Not exactly. Just that they'll have plenty of time to finish things, even if they start, like, now. The fact that they can give a set of 'quick rules' in a module scares the cr@p out of me. Just how simplistic have they made this game? :confused: -Yeah, I was a little taken aback by that, too. Either one's options are extremely limited (very linear plotline, can only use pregenerated characters, etc.), or I don't know...
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-27-08, 03:20 PM	Eww, nobody likes bony *******, they have to be soft and squishie to appease all the kiddies (like me:D )!!! Consiter it a twisted form of Fan Service;) In a serious note, when I Dm eberon warforge come in both humaniond "frames" enven if they can't refroduce. Mainly because I don't like the whole male boby as the ebodimennt of (demi) human phisique. you know?
DarkZephyr 01-27-08, 04:00 PM	Warlocks powers' don't have to stem from an evil source, just one of supernatural eldritch origin. Sorcerers are currently on hiatus, as the current 4e Wizard is starting to get a little more wild himself, they need to find a new role for the sorcerer. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070314 http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070328 These articles provide more information about Warlocks in FR, enjoy:D Sorcerers aren't around for now, eh? I see. Well. On the bright side, maybe this will open up a lot of exciting new opportunities and possibilities for someone somewhere. :) Thanks for the interesting info on Warlocks. Sounds pretty cool. :)
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 04:11 PM	The word 'Sorceror' evokes images of Arabian-style casters to me, so perhaps they will take that route with them, making them more 'elemental', with some Djinn summoning abilities.
DarkZephyr 01-27-08, 06:52 PM	The word 'Sorceror' evokes images of Arabian-style casters to me, so perhaps they will take that route with them, making them more 'elemental', with some Djinn summoning abilities. When I think of Sorcerers outside of the Realms, I think of Merlin. Which is funny, because if Merlin were to show up in Realmspace, he would be considered a Wizard, I think.
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 10:48 PM	The word 'Sorceror' evokes images of Arabian-style casters to me, so perhaps they will take that route with them, making them more 'elemental', with some Djinn summoning abilities. -What they are doing with Sorcerers, as best as I remember, is that they cast spells from drawn from within, but they come with funky modifiers. Like, for instance, they might cast a Fireball that causes them to light on fire, allowing them to deal fire damage, or shoot a Lightning Bolt that comes with a sonic boom, or something to that effect. Odd quirks like that. A Wild Mage, of sorts.
XHereticX 01-28-08, 09:06 AM	Hmm, I am actually hoping that they style Sorcerers after Shamans and spiritualists. Spellcasters that commune with the elements of nature to draw arcane power. So sort of like an arcane version of the druid.