Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alediran 03-06-08, 07:06 AM	Full review on: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D999960 - Power Variety. This is an unfounded fear I am having. Most of the powers of a class all seem to do things along a similar line. Clerics, for example, seem to have a bunch of powers that do radiant damage. While this might work fine for a sun cleric. What am I gonna do about clerics of a shadow god or frost god or nature god? Not all of them can do radiant damage all the time. I hope there are a ton of powers for me to chose from because I really do not want to have to create a bunch to make my pantheons work. The same goes for just about every other class, each in its own way. I need a ton of options, but with every class getting a list of them, I am worried that it means less for those that really need it. I don't know, but some rumors that were going around the show have me a bit worried. This one is a wait and see I guess. - No reliable coolness. Having to roll for nearly every power means that they miss sometimes. This really sucks when you burn your daily power and have it miss. While many have effects on a miss (I would guess), it is still a big letdown. I don't think I ever hit with my daily powers. - Sacred Hamburger. I had to roll to hit with a magic missile. Ugg. I missed a number of times (3 out of 9 times in fact). The guy who played the wizard in my other table did a lot worse, missing 7 out of 11 times. Goodbye Chaos and Law. Bye bye specialist wizards. See you later (like next year.. or even longer) barbarian, bard, druid, monk and sorcerer. No more spells (Wizard and Cleric abilities are called spells and prayers respectively, but they work like every other class's abilities). I have a bad feeling this is only the tip of the iceberg. I hope I am wrong.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 07:09 AM	-This belongs in the 4e Concerns and Criticisms area, not here.
Alediran 03-06-08, 07:13 AM	What I'm seeing is how it will affect the Realms. We know that Thay got in a war between zulkirs, now we know the reason for it: no more Specialist Wizards, this time confirmed. The bit about Clerics Radiant Damage is ringing in my head as why Amaunator returned now.
Rauric 03-06-08, 07:14 AM	-This belongs in the 4e Concerns and Criticisms area, not here. Aye. Or the kleenex forums.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 07:24 AM	What I'm seeing is how it will affect the Realms. -You should rephrase things to make them more Realms-specific, then. Aye. Or the kleenex forums. -If criticism and concern weren't allowed, there would not be a 4e Criticisms and Concerns area. And, stop with the cheap shots. That's not necessary.
Alediran 03-06-08, 07:47 AM	Another things that has me confused is how the new mechanics for creatures'll make the Zhentarim "smarter", since they are usualy considered by most people who don't really know them as incompetent I don't know how they'll become more competent during the game with the new rules.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 07:57 AM	Another things that has me confused is how the new mechanics for creatures'll make the Zhentarim "smarter", since they are usualy considered by most people who don't really know them as incompetent I don't know how they'll become more competent during the game with the new rules. -To make them more competent, all that needs to be done is to portray them as such, in the 100 year gap, and in the 4e FRCS. If they don't know who the Zhentarim are, when they get the 4e books, they'll see a (somewhat/mostly) well working cog of evil, and will associate them with that.
Rauric 03-06-08, 08:02 AM	Many DMs have been using the Zhents as competent bad guys.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 08:04 AM	Many DMs have been using the Zhents as competent bad guys. -Yes, but because of TSR rules in novels, which, to paraphrase, said that the bad guys need to always lose, and do so in a bumbling manner, many people have come to associate the Zhents with that bumbling kind of Keystone Kops behavior. And, as we all know with things, perception is everything.
Alediran 03-06-08, 08:06 AM	-To make them more competent, all that needs to be done is to portray them as such, in the 100 year gap, and in the 4e FRCS. If they don't know who the Zhentarim are, when they get the 4e books, they'll see a (somewhat/mostly) well working cog of evil, and will associate them with that. Humor: We'll have to see then. But if Shadowdale has an army of characters made using the PCs rules and the Zhentarim have the NPC rules on them is going to be hard for them to win. :D
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 08:10 AM	-Is there a difference, now? I am guessing, based on what you said...
Alediran 03-06-08, 08:21 AM	Yes, there is a big difference, NPCs will have so few options in combat that they'll be repeating most of them like automatons, this is mentioned in the part about fighting the kobolds in the article.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 08:26 AM	Yes, there is a big difference, NPCs will have so few options in combat that they'll be repeating most of them like automatons, this is mentioned in the part about fighting the kobolds in the article. -Eh, that's mostly how it is now. At least, that's how I DM, anyway. The most recent encounter I threw at my PCs were two Huge Undead Treants and a Green Hag. The Undead Treants simply attempted to step on the PCs time and time again, while the Hag turned invisible and fled when combat broke out. -All NPCs and PCs have a finite and set amount of things that they can do, and often repeat themselves.
Alediran 03-06-08, 08:33 AM	I'm used to challenging tactical combat when the other DM in my group DMs. We've already fought 2 young dragons (the first was killed in one strike by my girlfriend and her Warblade in a direct charge with her Pegasus) and the second tried to kill my Sun Elf Bladesinger by throwing him from the sky, but I had a Ring of Feather Fall in my finger and I was able to put an arrow between his eyes during my fall. Another time was when I was forced to go solo to find wood to make a fire (Icewind Dale in autumn), a nasty Ice Troll appeared but never saw me and I send my only prepared Fireball at him and ran away (no match for the troll). That's why after reading the part about Kobolds and their complete lack of combat options I begun to imagine how the Zhents would act if they where NPCs.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 08:47 AM	-Like I said, Humans, Wizards, Elves, Fighters, and everyone else, have a finite and limited amount of things they can do. Depending on the DM, a person, a monster, whatever, are going to dig deeper and come up with more crafty uses of the things in their repitorie. Nothing is changing. Things are already like that. A Kobold can run charging at you, wanting nothing more to kill you right now. Likewise, in the 4e future, a Kobold can stop, run the opposite direction, and turn on the "Anti-PC Defense Device". -To make the Zhents seem more 'not lame', WotC simply has to make them seem as such. This can be accomplished using the metaplot, and not character creation/NPC creation rules.
Alediran 03-06-08, 08:57 AM	I agree with you LK, but I'm still thinking how the Zhents (or any other evil group) will not appear lame when its time for Whack-a Zhent, if you've read that article then you'll get my concern.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 09:12 AM	I agree with you LK, but I'm still thinking how the Zhents (or any other evil group) will not appear lame when its time for Whack-a Zhent, if you've read that article then you'll get my concern. -Only if WotC presents 'Wack-a-Zhent', as in a mataplot that lends itself to that, as in, the Zhents are bumbling fools. In individual encounteres, there are too many variables to say that, for sure, a group of Zhents are going to be acting like Keystone Kops. And, if they do, that's the DM.
Stigger 03-06-08, 09:17 AM	I got kinda used to the whole keystone-cop presentation of evil... makes me feel all warm and squishy inside really, so I'm going to be keeping it, like an old security blanket to keep me warm at night...
18DELTA 03-06-08, 11:14 AM	-This is a little something I found on Monte Cooks site.Its a bunch of monsters from the DDXP. (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4081208&postcount=1) They do seem really simple, but I like simple. Heck I printed them up and have been playtesting them, against the character sheets I printed up. I had fun. Next is my game group.:) WOW has its roots in D&D, heck most roleplaying games has its roots in D&D. Edit fixed the the LK! Just click on the attachment. Soon I will put the link for the spells that are up.:) Edit of the Edit Here they are in Human Guard; Level 1 Soldier Medium Natural Humanoid XP 100 Initiative +4 Senses Perception +5 HP 31; Bloodied 15 AC 16, Fortitude 14, Reflex 13, Will 12 Speed 5 M Halberd (standard, at-will) * Weapon Reach 2; +8 vs. AC; 1d10+2 damage, and the target is marked until the human guard’s next turn. M Powerful strike (standard, recharge 5, 6) * Weapon Requires Halberd; Reach 2; +8 vs. AC; 1d10+6 damage, and the target is knocked prone. R Crossbow (standard, at will) * Weapon Range 15/30; +7 vs. AC; 1d8+1 damage Alignment: Any; Languages: Common Skills: Streetwise +6 Str 15 (+2), Con 15 (+2), Dex 14 (+2), Int 10 (+0), Wis 11 (+0), Cha 12 (+1) Equipment: Chainmail, Halberd, Crossbow w/ 20 bolts Human Bandit Level 1 Skirmisher Medium natural humanoid XP 135 Initiative +6 Senses Perception +1 HP 30; Bloodied 15 AC 16; Fortitude 12, Reflex 14, Will 12 Speed 6 M Mace (standard, at will) * Weapon +4 vs. AC; 1d8 + 1 damage, and the human bandit shifts 1 square R Dagger (standard, at will) * Weapon Range 5/10; +6 vs. AC; 1d4 + 1 damage B Dashing Strike (standard, at will) * Weapon Requires mace; +4 vs. AC; 1d8 + 1 damage, the target is dazed until the end of the human bandit's next turn, and the human bandit shifts 1 square Combat Advantage The human bandit deals an extra 1d6 damage on melee and ranged attacks against any target it has combat advantage against. Alignment Any Languages Common Skills Stealth +5, Streetwise +7, Thievery +9 Str 12 (+2) Dex 17 (+4) Wis 11 (+0) Con 13 (+2) Int 12 (+1) Cha 13 (+2) Equipment leather armor, mace, 4 daggers Human Berserker, Level 3 Brute Medium Natural Humanoid XP 150 Initiative +2; Senses Perception +1 HP 56; Bloodied 28, see also Battle Fury AC 14; Fortitude 14, Reflex 13, Will 13 Speed 7 M Greataxe (standard, at-will) * Weapon +6 vs. AC; 1d12+4 damage (crit 1d12+16) M Battle Fury (immediate, when first bloodied; encounter) The human berserker makes a melee basic attack with a +4 attack bonus and that deals an extra 1d6 damage on a hit. R Handaxe (standard, at-will) * Weapon Range 5/10; +4 vs. AC; damage 1d6+3 damage. Alignment Any; Languages Common Skills Athletics +9, Endurance +9 Str 17 (+4), Con 16 (+4), Dex 12 (+2), Int 10 (+1), Wis 11 (+1), Cha 12 (+2) Equipment: leather armor, greataxe, 2 handaxes Human Mage, Level 4 Artillery (leader) Medium Natural Humanoid XP 175 Initiative +4; Senses Perception +5 HP 42; Bloodied 21 AC 17; Fortitude 13, Reflex 14, Will 15 Speed 6 M Quarterstaff (standard, at-will) * Weapon +4 vs. AC; 1d8 damage R Magic Missile (standard, at-will) * Force Range 20; +7 vs. Reflex; 2d4+4 force damage R Dancing Lightning (standard, encounter) * Lightning The mage makes a separate attack against 3 different targets; Range 10; +7 vs. Reflex; 1d6+4 lightning damage. A Thunder Burst (standard, encounter) * Thunder Area burst 1 within 10; +7 vs. Fortitude; 1d8+4 thunder damage and the target is dazed (save ends). Alignment Any; Languages Common Skills Arcana +11 Str 10 (+2), Con 12 (+3), Dex 14 (+4), Int 18 (+6), Wis 17 (+5), Cha 12 (+3) Equipment: Robes, Quarterstaff, Wand Defiant Rake Medium Natural Humanoid Level 5 Skirmisher AC 21, Fort 13, Ref 17, Will 16, HP 45, Bloodied 22, Init +7, Spd 6 Senses: Perception +2 Attacks: Melee: Rapier +11 vs AC; 1d8+5 Ranged: Hand Crossbow Rg 10/20; +11 vs AC; 1d6+5 Sneak Attack +2d6 damage with combat advantage Limited Powers: Snap Shot Minor; hand crossbow attack. Recharge 5, 6. Wicked Dodge Reaction, when target of melee attack; +9 vs Will; attack automatically misses OR instead targets any other creature within attacker’s reach (your choice). Recharge 5, 6. Skills: Bluff +11, Stealth +12, Thievery +12 Str +2 (10), Con +3 (12), Dex +7 (20), Int +3 (12), Wis +2 (10), Cha +6 (18) Shadar-Kai Chainfighter, Level 6 Skirmisher Medium shadow humanoid XP 250 Initiative +9; Senses Perception +5, low-light vision HP 54; Blooded 27 AC 20; Fortitude 19, Reflex 19, Will 17 Speed 6; See also Dance of Death and Shadow Jaunt M Spiked Chain (standard, at-will) * Weapon Reach 2; +11 vs. AC; 2d4+3 damage M Dance of Death (standard, recharge 6) * Weapon, Necrotic The shadar-kai chainfighter shifts 6 squares and makes 3 spiked chain attacks at any points during his move. He can only attack a given enemy once, but he deals an extra 1d6 necrotic damage with each hit. Shadow Jaunt (move, encounter) * Teleportation The Shadar-Kai chainfighter teleports 3 squares and becomes insubstantial until the start of his next turn. Alignment unaligned; Languages Common Skills Acrobatics +14, Stealth +14 Str 17 (+6), Con 12 (+4), Dex 18 (+7), Int 10 (+3), Wis 14 (+5), Cha 11 (+3) Equipment: Leather armor, spiked chain. Crushing Rock; Level 2 Blaster Trap XP 125 A giant boulder follows the route indicated on the map. Perception: No check necessary to notice the crushing rock. Trigger: Initiative +5 The trap rolls initiative when combat begins. It has speed 6. Attack: Standard Action- Melee Target: All creatures in the same space as the rock. Attack: +7 vs. Reflex Hit: 2d6 damage, knock prone, and move that creature to the nearest open space of its choice. Countermeasures: A creature who makes an Athletics check (DC 10, or DC 20 without a running start) can jump over its square. A character adjacent to the rock who makes a successful Strength test (DC 19), the rock’s Speed is reduced by 2. If the rock is reduced to 0 speed, it is disabled. Kobold Minion; Level 1 Minion Small Natural Humanoid XP 25 Initiative +3 Senses Perception +1, darkvision HP A minion dies when hit by an attack that deals damage. AC 15; Fortitude 11, Reflex 13, Will 11; see also trap sense Speed 6 m Spear (standard; at-will) • Weapon . +5 vs. AC; 2 damage. r Spear (standard; at-will) • Weapon . Range 10/20; +5 vs. AC; 2 damage. Shifty (minor, at will). The kobold shifts 1 square as a minor action. Trap Sense. The kobold gains a +2 bonus to all defenses against traps. Alignment Evil Languages Draconic. Skills Stealth +5, Thievery +5. Str 8 (-1) Dex 16 (+3) Wis 12 (+1). Con 12 (+1) Int 9 (-1) Cha 10 (+0). Equipment hide armor, light shield, 3 spears Kobold Wyrmpriest; Level 3 Artillery (Leader) Small Natural Humanoid; XP 150 Initiative: +4 ; Senses: Perception+4, darkvision HP 36; Bloodied 18 AC 17; Fortitude 13, Reflex 15, Will 15; see also trap sense Speed 6 m Spear (standard; at-will) • Weapon +7 vs. AC; 1d8 damage a Energy Orb (standard; at will) + see text Range 10; 16 vs. Reflex; 1d10 +3 damage of a chosen type (based on the dragon served). b Incite Faith (minor; encounter) Close burst 10; kobold allies in the burst gain 5 temporary hit points and shift 1 square. c Dragon Breath (standard; encounter) + see text Close blast 3; +6 vs. Fortitude; 1d10 +3 damage of a chosen type (based on the dragon served). Miss: Half Damage. Shifty (minor, at will) The kobold shifts 1 square as a minor action. Trap Sense The kobold gains a +2 bonus to all defenses against traps. Alignment: Evil; Languages: Draconic Skills: Stealth +11, Thievery +11 Str 9 (+0) Dex 16 (+3) Wis 17 (+4) Con 12 (+2) Int 9 (+0) Cha 12 (+2) Equipment: Hide armor, spear, bone mask. Kobold Skirmisher; Level 1 Skirmisher Small natural humanoid; XP 100 Initiative: +5; Senses: Perception +0; darkvision HP 27; Bloodied 13 AC 15; Fortitude 11, Reflex 14, Will13; see also trap sense Speed 6 Spear (standard; at will) • Weapon +6 vs. AC; 1d8 damage; see also mob attack Combat Advantage The kobold skirmisher deals an extra 1d6 damage on melee and ranged attacks against any target it has combat advantage against. Mob Attack The kobold skirmisher gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls per kobold ally adjacent to the target. Shifty (minor; at will) The kobold shifts 1 square as a minor action. Trap Sense The kobold gains a +2 bonus to all defenses against traps. Alignment: Evil; Languages: Draconic Skills: Acrobatics +8, Stealth +10, Thievery +10 Str 8 (-1) Dex 16 (+3) Wis 10 (+0) Con 11 (+0) Int 6 (-2) Cha 15 (+2) Equipment: Hide armor, light shield, spear Kobold Dragon Shield; Level 2 Soldier Small Natural Humanoid; XP 125 Initiative +4 ;Senses: Perception+2, darkvision HP 36; Bloodied 18 AC 18; Fortitude 14,Reflex 13,Will 13; see also trap sense Speed 6 m Short Sword (standard; at-will) • Weapon +7 vs. AC; 1d6+3 damage, and the target is marked until the end of the Kobold dragonshield’s next turn. DragonShield Tactics (immediate reation, when an adjacent enemy shifts away or an enemy moves adjacent, at will) The kobold dragonshield shifts 1 square. Mob Attack The kobold dragonshield gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls per kobold ally adjacent to the target. Shifty (minor, at will) The kobold shifts 1 square as a minor action. Trap Sense The kobold gains a +2 bonus to all defenses against traps. Alignment: Evil; Languages: Draconic Skills: Acrobatics +8, stealth +10, Thievery +10 Str 8 (-1) Dex 16 (+3) Wis 10 (+0) Con 11 (+0) Int 6 (-2) Cha 15 (+2) Equipment: Scale armor, heavy shield, short sword Kobold Slinger; Level 1 Artillery Small Natural Humanoid; XP 100 Initiative: +3; Senses: Perception+1, darkvision HP 24; Bloodied 12 AC 13; Fortitude 12,Reflex 14,Will 12; see also trap sense Speed 6 M Dagger (standard; at-will) • Weapon +5 vs. AC; 1d4+3 damage. R Sling (standard; at-will) • Weapon Range 10/20; +6 vs. AC; 1d6 +3 damage; see also special shot. Special Shot The kobold slinger can fire special ammunition from its sling. It typically carries 3 rounds special shot chosen from the types listed below. A special shot attack that hits deals normal damage and has an additional effect depending on its type. Stinkpot the target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends) Firepot (Fire) The target taks ongoing 2 fire damage (save ends) Gluepot The target is immobilized (save ends) Shifty (minor, at will) The kobold shifts 1 square as a minor action. Trap Sense: The kobold gains a +2 bonus to all defenses against traps. Alignment: Evil; Languages: Draconic Skills: Acrobatics +8, stealth +10, Thievery +10 Str 9 (-1) Dex 17 (+3) Wis 12 (+1) Con 11 (+1) Int 9 (-1) Cha 10 (+0) Equipment: leather armor, dagger, sling with 20 bullets, 3 rounds of special shot (see above). Kobold Archer; Level 2 Artillery Small Natural Humanoid Init: +9; Senses: Perception +2 HP 23; Bloodied 11 AC 16; Fortitude 11 Reflex 15 Will 13 Speed 6 M Dagger (Standard; at-will) * Weapon +8 vs. AC; 1d3 R Shortbow (Standard; at-will) * Weapon Range 10/20; +9 vs. AC; 1d4+4, see also Fragile Confidence Easily Frightened Fear effects get +2 attack against this creature Fragile Confidence Shortbow +5 attack until attacked Shifty (Minor; at-will) Shift 1 square Skills: Initiative +9 Str 9 (+0) Dex 16 (+4) Wis 12 (+2) Con 10 (+1) Int 6 (-1) Cha 8 (+0) Hobgoblin Soldier - Level 3 soldier Medium natural humanoid (goblinoid) - XP 150 Initiative +7 - Senses Perception +3; low light vision HP 47; Bloodied 23 AC 20 (22 with phalanx soldier); Fortitude 18, Reflex 16, Will 16 Speed 5 M Flail (standard, at-will)-Weapon +7 vs AC; 1d10 + 4 damage, the target is slowed until the end of the hobgoblin soldier’s next turn, and the target is marked until the end of the hobgoblin soldier’s next turn M Formation Strike(standard, at-will)-Weapon Requires flail; +7 vs AC; 1d10 + 4 damage, and the hobgoblin soldier shifts 1 square provided it ends in a space adjacent to another hobgoblin. Hobgoblin Resilience (immediate reaction, when the hobgoblin soldier suffers an effect that a save can end; encounter) The hobgoblin soldier makes a saving throw against the triggering effect. Phalanx Soldier The hobgoblin soldier gains +2 bonus to AC while at least one hobgoblin ally is adjacent to it. Alignment Evil, Languages Common, Goblin Skills Athletics +12, Stealth +10 Str 19(+5) Dex 14(+3) Wis 14(+3) Con 15(+3) Int 11(+1) Cha 10(+1) Equipment Scale armor, Heavy Shield, Flail Hobgoblin Archer – Level 3 Artillery Medium Natural Humanoid (goblinoid) – XP 150 Initiative +7; Senses Perception +?, Lowlight Vision HP 39, Bloodied 19 AC 17, Fortitude 13, Reflex 15, Will 13 M Longsword (standard, at-will) * Weapon +6 vs. AC; 1d8+2 damage R Longbow (standard, at-will) * Weapon Range 20/40; +9 vs. AC; 1d10+4 damage, and the hobgoblin archer grants an ally within 5 squares of it a +2 bonus on ranged attack rolls against the same target. Hobgoblin Resilience (immediate reaction, when the hobgoblin soldier suffers an effect that a save can end; encounter) The hobgoblin soldier makes a saving throw against the triggering effect. Skills Athletics +5, Stealth +12 Str 14(+3) Dex 19(+5) Wis 14(+3) Con 15(+3) Int 11(+1) Cha 10(+1) Equipment: Leather armor, longsword, longbow, quiver of 20 arrows Hobgoblin Warcaster - Level 3 Controller(leader) Medium natural humanoid (goblinoid) - XP 150 Initiavive +5 - Senses Perception +4; low light vision HP 46; Bloodied 23 AC 17; Fortitude 13, Reflex 15, Will 14 Speed 6 M Staff (standard,at-will) - Weapon +8 vs AC;1d8+1 damage M Shock Staff (standard; recharge 4 5 6) - Lightning, Weapon +8 vs AC; 2d10 + 4 lightining damage, and the target is dazed until the end of the hobigoblin warcaster´s next turn. R Force Lore (standard; recharge 5 6) - Force Range 5;+7 vs Fortitude; 2d6 + 4 force damage, and the target slides 3 squares. C Force Pulse (standard; recharge 6) - Force Close Blast 5;+7 vs Reflex; 2d8 + 4 force damage, and the target is pushed 1 square and knocked prone. Miss Half damage, and the target is neither pushed nor knocked prone. Hobgoblin Resilience (immediate reaction, when the hobgoblin soldier suffers an effect that a save can end; encounter) The hobgoblin soldier makes a saving throw against the triggering effect. Alightment Evil Languages Common, Goblin Skills Arcane +10, Athletics +4, Stealth +10 Str 13(+2) Dex 14(+3) Wis 16(+4) Con 14(+3) Int 19(+5) Cha 13(+2) Equipment robes, staff Skeleton Warrior, Level 3 Soldier Medium Natural Animate (undead) XP 150 Initiative +6; Senses Perception +3, darkvision HP 45; Bloodied 22 AC 18; Fortitude 15, Reflex 16, Will 15 Immune disease, poison; Resist 10 necrotic; Vulnerable 5 radiant Speed 5 M Longsword (standard, at-will) * Weapon +10 vs. AC; 1d8+2 damage, and the target is marked until the Skeleton Warrior’s next turn; see also Speed of the Dead Speed of the Dead When making an opportunity attack, the Skeleton Warrior gains a +2 bonus to the attack roll, and deals an extra 1d6 damage. Alignment: Unaligned; Languages: none Str 15 (+3); Con 13 (+2); Dex 17 (+4); Int 3 (-3); Wis 14 (+3); Cha 3 (-3) Equipment: Chainmail, large shield, longsword Blazing Skeleton, Level 5 Artillery Medium Natural Animate (undead) XP 200 Initiative +6; Senses Perception +4, darkvision Fiery Aura (fire): Aura 1; any creature that starts its turn in the aura takes 5 fire damage HP 53; Bloodied 26 AC 19; Fortitude 15, Reflex 18, Will 16 Immune disease, poison; Resist 10 fire, 10 necrotic; Vulnerable 5 radiant Speed 6 M Blazing Claw (standard, at-will) * Fire +8 vs. AC; 1d4+1 damage, and ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends) R Flame Orb (standard, at-will) * Fire Range 10; +8 vs. Reflex; 2d4+4 fire damage and ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends) Alignment: Unaligned; Languages: none Str 13 (+3), Con 17 (+5), Dex 18 (+6), Int 4 (-1), Wis 15 (+4), Cha 6 (+0) Boneshard Skeleton, Level 5 Brute Medium Natural Animate (undead) XP 200 Initiative +5; Senses Perception +4, darkvision HP 77, Bloodied 38; see also Boneshard Burst AC 17, Fortitude 16, Reflex 16, Will 15 Immune disease, poison; Resist 10 necrotic; Vulnerable 5 radiant Speed 6 M Scimitar (standard, at-will) * Necrotic, Weapon +9 vs. AC; 1d8+3 damage (crit 1d8+11) +5 necrotic damage M Boneshard (standard, at-will) * Necrotic +9 vs. AC; 1d4+3 damage, plus 5 ongoing necrotic damage C Boneshard Burst (immediate reaction, when first bloodied and when reduced to 0 HP) Close Burst 3; +8 vs Reflex; 2d6+3 necrotic damage Alignment: Unaligned; Languages: none Str 16 (+5), Con 17 (+5), Dex 16 (+5), Int 3 (-2), Wis 14 (+4), Cha 3 (-2) Equipment: Scimitar Chillborn Medium Natural Animate (Undead) Level 6 Soldier AC 22, FORT 21, REF 17, WILL 17, HP 48, Bloodied 24, Init +5, Spd 4 Senses: Perception +3. Immune: Poison, Resist: cold 10, necrotic 10, weapon 10 Weakness: Massive Dmg, Vulnerability radiant 5 Attacks: Melee Slam +14 vs AC; 1d6+6 AND Followup Followup +9 vs Fort; Immobilized 1 rd Ice Reaper: +5 cold damage to Immobilized or Stunned Abilities: Massive Damage: Destroyed by single attack of 24+ damage Wintry Cloud: Creatures take 2 cold damage at start of their turns for each chillborn within 5 (max 8 damage) Str +9 (22), Con +5 (15), Dex +5 (14), Int -1 (2), Wis +3 (10), Cha +5 (15) Orc Raider, Level 3 Soldier Medium Natural Humanoid Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +2 HP 32; Bloodied 16, see also Pain Rage AC 19; Fortitude 17 Reflex 14 Will 11 Speed 6, Rapic Charge m Battleaxe (Standard; at-will) * Weapon +10 vs. AC; 1d12+4 M Bloody Opportunist (Immediate, when an adjacent bloodied opponent misses with an melee attack; at will) * Weapon The Orc Raider can make a basic melee attack against that target Pain Rage While Bloodied, the Orc Raider gets +2 atk/Def, +5 damage Rapid Charge +2 Speed charging Skills: Endurance +8 Str +5 Dex +2 Wis +2 Con +3 Int +0 Cha +0 Cavern Choker Level 4 Lurker Small natural humanoid XP 175 Initiative +9 Senses Perception +3, darkvision HP 42; Bloodied 21 AC 17 (see also chameleon hide); Fortitude 15, Reflex 15, Will 13 Speed 6, climb 6 (spider climb) m Tentacle Claw (standard; at-will) Reach 2; +9 vs AC; 1d8+3 damage and the target is grabbed (until escape). A target trying to escape the grab takes a -4 penalty to the check. M Choke (standard; at-will) Grabbed target only. +9 vs Fortitude; 1d8+3 damage. Chameleon Hide (minor; at-will) The cavern choker gains concealment until the start of its next turn. It can't use this power while grabbing or creature or while grabbed. Body Shield (immediate interrupt, when targeted by a melee or a ranged attack against Reflex or AC; recharge when the choker makes a successful tentacle claw or choke attack) The cavern choker makes its grabbed victim the target instead. The choker cannot use this power to redirect attacks made by a creature it is currently grabbing. Alignment Unaligned Languages Common Skills Stealth +10 Str 17 (+5) Dex 17 (+5) Wis 13 (+3) Con 12 (+3) Int 6 (+0) Cha 6 (+0) Feygrove Choker Level 12 Lurker Medium fey humanoid XP 700 Initiative +14 Senses Perception +7; low-light vision HP 91; Bloodied 45 AC 24; Fortitude 22, Reflex 22, Will 19 Speed 8 (forest walk), climb 8 (spider climb) m Tentacle Claw (standard; at-will) Reach 3; +17 vs AC; 2d6+4 damage, and the target is grabbed (until escape). A target trying to escape the grab takes a -4 penalty to the check. The feygrove choker can grab up to 2 creatures at once. M Choke (standard; at-will) Up to 2 grabbed targets, +17 vs Fortitude; 2d8+4 damage. The feygrove choker makes a separate attack against each grabbed target. A Vine Fetter (standard; recharge 3? ) Area burst 3 within 10; nearby vines animate and snare the feygrove choker's enemies, +15 vs Reflex; the target is restrained (save ends). Body Shield (immediate interrupt, when targeted by a melee or a ranged attack against Reflex or AC; recharges when the choker makes a successful tentacle claw or choke attack) The cavern choker makes its grabbed victim the target instead. The choker cannot use this power to redirect attacks made by a creature it is currently grabbing. Chameleon Hide (minor; at-will) The feygrove choker gains concealment until the start of its next turn. It can't use this power while grabbing a creature or while grabbed. Alignment Unaligned Languages Elven Skills Stealth +15 Str 19 (+10) Dex 18 (+10) Wis 13 (+7) Con 13 (+7) Int 6 (+4) Cha 6 (+4) Troglodyte Bonecrusher, Level 6 Soldier Medium Natural Humanoid Init +4; Senses darkvision; Perception +5 HP 51; Bloodied 25 AC 21; Fortitude 21 Reflex 18 Will 17 Speed 5 m Greatclub (Standard; at-will) * Weapon +14 vs. AC; 2d4+4 C Stench (Minor, at-will) Close burst 1; +10 vs. Fort; Slowed AND -2 atk/Def for the rest of the encounter. Troglodytes immune. Skills: Climb +12, Stealh +9 Str +7 Dex +4 Wis +5 Con +7 Int +3 Cha +4 Deathjump Spider Medium Natural Beast (Spider) Level 4 Skirmisher AC 18, Fort 14, Ref 17, Will 14, HP 38, Bloodied 19, Init +5, Speed 6, Climb 6, Jump 6 Senses darkvision, Perception +9 Attacks: Melee Bite +11 vs AC; 1d10+4 Limited Powers: Melee, Death from Above: Standard, jump 6 AND bite +11 vs AC 2d10+4. Recharge 6 Prodigious Leap: Move, jump 12, no opportunity attacks. Recharge 5, 6. Str +4 (15), Con +4 (15), Dex +5 (16), Int -2 (2), Wis +4 (14), Cha +3 (13) Goblin Picador Small Natural Humanoid Level 2 Controller AC 16, Fort 14, Ref 16, Will 10, HP 26, Bloodied 13, Init +9, Spd 6 Senses: Perception +1 Attacks: Melee: Harpoon +9 vs AC, 1d4+3 plus Harpooned (see text) Ranged: Thrown Harpoon Rg 5, +9 vs AC, 1d4+3 plus Harpooned (see text) Melee: Tug of War Standard, M or smaller Harpooned enemy; +4 vs Fort; pull 3 (pull 1 on miss). Abilities: Goblin Tactics Whenever a Melee attack against it misses, can immediately shift away from attacker. Harpooned Can’t move more than 5 from this creature. Remove standard; Str vs Fort. Str +4 (16), Con +2 (13), Dex +5 (18), Int +0 (8), Wis +1 (10), Cha +0 (8) Goblin Sharpshooter; Level 2 Artillery Small Natural Humanoid Initiative +5; Senses: Perception +2, lowlight vision HP ??; Bloodied ?? (probably about 23-26 HP) AC 19; Fortitude 13, Reflex 17, Will 12 Speed 6 Goblin Tactics Whenever a Melee attack against it misses, can immediately shift away from attacker M Short Sword (standard, at-will) * Weapon +3 vs. AC, 1d6+2 damage R Crossbow Attack (standard, at-will) * Weapon Range 15/30, +5 vs AC, 1d8+2 damage Combat Advantage: +2d6 damage Sniper: A Goblin Sharpshooter that misses with a ranged attack remains hidden. Skills: Stealth +12 Alignment: Evil, Languages: Goblin Str 14 (+3), Con 13 (+2), Dex 18 (+5), Int 8 (+0), Wis 13 (+2), Cha 8 (+0) Vampire Spawn Medium Natural Humanoid (Undead) Level 6 Minion (Brute) AC 18, Fort 15, Ref 16, Will 15, HP 10, Bloodied 5, Init +11, Spd 7 Senses darkvision; Perception +4 Immune poison, Resist nec 10, Weakness vulnerable radiant 5 Attacks: Melee Claw +11 vs AC; 3 (5 to Bloodied) Group Attack +3 damage per additional vampire spawn (+5 to Bloodied) Abilities: Regenerate 3 Skills: Stealth +11 Str +5 (14), Con +5 (14), Dex +6 (16), Int +3 (10), Wis +4 (12), Cha +5 (14) Elf Archer Medium Fey Humanoid Level 2 Artillery AC 15, Fort 12, Ref 15, Will 14, HP 20, Bloodied 10, Init +10, Spd 7 Senses Perception +12 Attacks: Melee Shortsword +7 vs AC; 1d6+2 Ranged Bow Rg 15/30; +9 vs AC; 1d8+4 Abilities: Archer’s Mobility If moves at least 4, +2 to ranged attack. Young Black Dragon Lvl 4 Solo Skirmisher Large natural magical beast (aquatic, dragon) XP 875 Init +11 Senses Perc +9; darkvision hp 280, bloodied 140 (bloodied breath) AC 24; Fort 19, Ref 21, Will 18 Resist 15 acid Saving throws +5 Speed 7, fly 7 (clumsy), overland flight 10, swim 7 Action Points 2 M Bite (standard, at-will) * Acid Reach 2; +10 vs AC; 1d6+3 damage and ongoing 5 acid damage (save ends) M Claw (standard, at-will) Reach 2; +8 vs AC; 1d4+3 damage M Double Attack (standard, at-will) Makes two claw attacks M Tail Slash (Immediate reaction, when a melee attack misses the dragon; at-will) Uses tail to attack enemy that missed it, reach 2; +8 vs AC; 1d6+4 damage and push 1 square C Breath Weapon (standard; recharge 5 6) * Acid Close Blast 5; +7 vs Ref; 1d12+3 acid, and target takes ongoing 5 acid damage and -4 to AC (save ends both) C Bloodied Breath (Immediate reaction; when first bloodied; encounter) * Acid Breath weapon recharges automatically, and dragon uses it immediately C Cloud of Darkness (standard; sustain minor; recharge 3 4 5 6) * Zone Close burst 2; creates a zone of darkness that remains in place until end of dragon's next turn. The zone blocks line of sight for every creature except the dragon. Any creature entirely within the area except the dragon is blinded. C Frightful Presence (standard, encounter) * Fear Close burst 5; targets enemies; +5 vs Will; the target is stunned until the end of the dragon's next turn; Aftereffect: The target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends) Alignment Evil Languages Draconic Skills Nature +9, Stealth +17 Str 16 (+5) Dex 20 (+7) Wis 15 (+4) Con 16 (+5) Int 12 (+3) Cha 10 (+2) Bugbear Headreaver, Level 7 Brute Medium Natural Humanoid Init +3; Senses Perception +3 HP 62; Bloodied 31 AC 20; Fortitude 17 Reflex 13 Will 14 Speed 6 m Large Greataxe (Standard; at-will) * Weapon +12 vs. AC; 2d10+4 Reaver's Prize (Minor; Recharge 6) When a melee attack reduces enemy to 0hp, it loses 1d6+5 hp AND this creature gains an extra standard action this turn Skills: Stealth +8 Str +7 Dex +3 Wis +3 Con +6 Int +1 Cha +4 Gargoyle, Level 9 Lurker Medium Elemental Humanoid (Earth) Init +7; Senses Perception +12 HP 46; Bloodied 23 AC 24; Fortitude 22 Reflex 19 Will 19 Speed 5, Fly 7 m Claw (Standard; at-will) +15 vs. AC; 1d10+6 M Earthpower Ram (Standard; at-will) Must leave Stone Form on the same turn first; Shift (fly) 7 squares in a straight line and make a claw attack against each creature within reach during move Stone Form (Standard; at-will) Statue (Resist 25 all, no actions except Minor to leave stone form) Skills: Stealth +12 Str +9 Dex +7 Wis +7 Con +7 Int +3 Cha +4 Hook Horror, Level 13 Soldier Large Aberrant Beast Init +11; Senses darkvision; Perception +15 HP 150; Bloodied 75 AC 30; Fortitude 27 Reflex 24 Will 23 Speed 6 m Claw (Standard; at-will) Reach 2; +21 vs. AC; 1d10+8 AND Followup Followup: +19 vs. Fort; Large or smaller; pull 1 AND Restrained. Only 1 at a time M Feast (Standard; at-will) +21 vs. AC; Restrained only; 3d10+8 M Fling (Standard; at-will) +21 vs. Fort; Restrained only; 2d10+8 AND push 4 AND knock prone Lethal +4 attack against bloodied targets Str +14 Dex +11 Wis +10 Con +12 Int +3 Cha +7 Spined Devil, Level 6 Skirmisher Medium Immortal Humanoid (Devil) Init +5 Speed 5 Fly 7 Senses Nethersight, Perception +5 Resists Fire 20 AC 20 Fort 18 Ref 18 Will 18 HP/Blooded 47/23 ATTACKS Melee 2 claws +9 vs AC each; 2d4+4 Spine Rain Standard, Ranged 10; +9 Dex vs. Ref; 1d6+2 + 2d6 Fire AND Poison 5, Slowed while Poisoned. SKILLS Spot +10 Str +7(19) Dex +5(14) Con +5(15) Int +5(15) Wis +5(14) Cha +5(15) Gnoll Huntmaster, Level 5 Artillery (XP 200) Medium natural humanoid Initiative +6 Senses Perception +11; low-light vision HP 50; Bloodied 25 AC 19; Fortitude 16, Reflex 17, Will 14 Speed 7 m Handaxe (standard; at-will) * Weapon +9 vs. AC; 1d6 + 3 damage, or 1d6 + 5 damage while bloodied; see also pack attack. r Longbow (standard; at-will) * Weapon Range 20/40; +10 vs. AC; 1d10 + 4 damage, or 1d10 + 6 damage while bloodied; see also pack attack. Pack Attack The gnoll huntmaster deals an extra 5 damage on melee and ranged attacks against an enemy that has two or more of the huntmaster's allies adjacent to it. Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Abyssal, Common Skills Intimidate +7, Stealth +11 Str 16 (+5) Dex 19 (+6) Wis 14 (+4) Con 14 (+4) Int 8 (+1) Cha 7 (+0) Equipment leather armor, handaxe, longbow, quiver of 30 arrows Gnoll Marauder, Level 6 Brute (XP 250) Medium natural humanoid Initiative +5 Senses Perception +7; low-light vision HP 84; Bloodied 42 AC 18; Fortitude 18, Reflex 15, Will 15 Speed 7 m Spear (standard; at-will) * Weapon +10 vs. AC; 1d8 + 6 damage, or 1d8 + 8 while bloodied; see also quick bite and pack attack. m Quick Bite (free; at-will) After the gnoll marauder makes a successful melee attack against a bloodied enemy, it makes a bite attack against the same target: +7 vs. AC; 1d6 + 2 damage, or 1d6 + 4 while bloodied. Pack Attack The gnoll marauder deals an extra 5 damage on melee and ranged attacks against an enemy that has two or more of the marauder's allies adjacent to it. Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Abyssal, Common Skills Intimidate +3, Stealth +10 Str 20 (+8) Dex 14 (+5) Wis 14 (+5) Con 14 (+5) Int 9 (+2) Cha 7 (+1) Equipment leather armor, light shield, spear Gnoll Claw Fighter Level 6 Skirmisher * XP 250 Medium Natural Humanoid Initiative: +7 Senses: Perception +6; low-light vision HP 70; Bloodied 35 AC 20; Fortitude 18, Reflex 16, Will 15 Speed 8; see also mobile melee attack M Claw (standard; at-will) +11 vs. AC; 1d6 + 4 damage, or 1d6 + 6 while bloodied; see also pack attack below M Clawing Charge (standard, when this creature charges; at-will) The gnoll claw fighter makes two claw attacks against a single target when it charges. M Mobile Melee Attack (standard; at-will) The gnoll claw fighter can move up to 4 squares and make one melee basic attack at any point during that movement. The gnoll doesn't provoke opportunity attacks when moving away from the target of its attack. Pack Attack The gnoll claw fighter deals an extra 5 damage on melee attacks against an enemy that has two or more of the gnoll claw fighter's allies adjacent to it. Alignment: Chaotic evil Languages: Abyssal, Common Skills: Intimidate +3 Str 19 (+7) Con 14 (+5) Dex 15 (+5) Int 9 (+2) Wis 12 (+4) Cha 7 (-1) Equipment: leather armor Gnoll Demonic Scourge Level 8 Brute * XP 350 Medium Natural Humanoid Initiative: +6 Senses: Perception +7; low-light vision Leader of the Pack: Area 5; allies in the aura gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls. While this creature is bloodied, the bonus increases to +2. HP 106; Bloodied 53 AC 20; Fortitude 21, Reflex 18, Will 18 Speed 6 M Heavy Flail (standard; at-will) * Weapon +13 vs. AC; 2d6 + 5 damage, or 2d6 + 7 while bloodied; against a bloodied enemy, this attack also knocks the target prone; see also pack attack Bloodthirst If the gnoll demonic scourge bloodies an enemy with a melee attack, an ally adjacent to the struck enemy can make a melee attack against that enemy as an immediate reaction. Overwhelming Attack (free, encounter) The gnoll demonic scourge applies its bloodthirst power to two allies instead of one. Pack Attack The gnoll demonic scourge deals an extra 5 damage on melee attacks against an enemy that has two or more of the demonic scourge's allies adjacent to it. Alignment: Chaotic evil Languages: Abyssal, Common Skills: Insight +10, Intimidate +13, Religion +10 Str 20 (+9) Con 16 (+7) Dex 14 (+6) Int 13 (+5) Wis 12 (+5) Cha 15 (+6) Equipment: chainmail, heavy flail Grick Level 7 Brute Medium aberrant beast XP 300 Initiative +4 Senses Perception +10; darkvision HP 96; Bloodied 48 AC 19; Fortitude 19, Reflex 14, Will 15 Resist 10 against effects that target AC Speed 6, climb 4 m Tentacle Rake (standard; at-will) +10 vs AC; 2d6 +4 damage, and ongoing 5 damage (save ends) Expert Flanker The grick gains a +2 bonus to attack rolls against an enemy it is flanking. Alignment Unaligned Languages - Skills Endurance +13, Stealth +9 Str 18 (+7) Dex 13 (+4) Wis 14 (+5) Con 16 (+6) Int 2 (-3) Cha 7 (+1) Grick Alpha Level 9 Brute (Leader) Large aberrant beast XP 400 Intiative +5 Senses Perception +11; darkvision HP 116; Bloodied 58 AC 23; Fortitude 22, Reflex 17, Will 18 Resist 10 against effects that target AC Speed 7, climb 4 m Tentacle Rake (standard; at-will) Reach 2; +13 vs AC; 2d6 + 5 damage and the target is grabbed (until escape) and takes ongoing 5 damage (save ends). M Vicious Bite (standard; at-will) Grabbed target only; automatic hit; 1d8 + 5 damage. Expert Flanker The grick alpha gains a +2 bonus to attack rolls against an enemy it is flanking. Pinning Grip The grick alpha's allies gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls against an enemy grabbed by this creature. Alignment Unaligned Languages - Skills Endurance +12, Stealth +10 Str 20 (+9) Dex 13 (+5) Wis 15 (+6) Con 16 (+7) Int 2 (+0) Cha 7 (+2) Grell Level 7 Elite Soldier Medium aberrant magical beast XP 600 Initiative +9 Senses Perception +9; blindsight 12 HP 156; Bloodied 78 AC 22 (24 while the grell has an enemy grabbed); Fortitude 19, Reflex 20, Will 17 Saving Throws +2 Speed 1 (clumsy) fly 6 (hover) Action Points 1 m Tentacle Rake (standard; at-will) * Poison Reach 2; +12 vs AC; 2d8 + 4 damage, and the target is slowed and takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends both) M Tentacle Grab (standard; at-will) Reach 2; +12 vs Fortitude. 2d8 + 4 damage, and the target is grabbed. The grell can grab only one creature at a time. Venomous Bite (minor 1/round; at-will) * Poison Grabbed target only; +12 vs AC; 1d8 + 4 damage, and the target is stunned (save ends) Alignment Evil Languages Deep Speech Skills Stealth +17 Str 12 (+4) Dex 19 (+7) Wis 13 (+4) Dex 14 (+5) Int 10 (+3) Cha 9 (+2) Grell Philosopher Level 11 Elite Controller Medium aberrant magical beast XP 1,200 Initiative +10 Senses Perception +12; blindsight 12 HP 224; Bloodied 112 AC 27; Fortitude 21, Reflex 24, Will 23 Resist 20 Lightning Saving Throws +2 Speed 1 (clumsy); fly 6 (hover) Action Points 1 m Tentacle Rake (standard; at-will) * Poison Reach 2; +17 vs AC; 3d8+5 damage, and the target is slowed and takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends both). R Lightning Lance (standard; at-will) - Lightning Range 10; +14 vs Reflex; 3d6+6 lightning damage, and the target is blinded (save ends). A Psychic Scream (standard; recharge 3+) * Psychic, Zone Area burst 2 within 10; +14 vs Will; 3d8 + 3 psychic damage, and the target is dazed (save ends). The psychic scream is a zone that lasts until the end of the encounter. Any creature entering the zone is dazed (save ends). C Venomous Mind (standard; at-will) * Psychic Close burst 3; targets enemies, +15 vs Will; 2d8 + 5 psychic damage and the target must choose a random target for any melee attacks it makes (save ends) Alignment Evil Languages Deep Speech Skills Arcana +13, Stealth +20 Str 14 (+7) Dex 21 (+10) Wis 14 (+7) Con 16 (+8) Int 16 (+8) Cha 13 (+6) Skeletal Tomb Guardian, Level 10 Elite Brute Medium Natural Animate (Undead) Init +9; Senses darkvision; Perception +12 HP 112; Bloodied 56 AC 23; Fortitude 22 Reflex 23 Will 20 Speed 8 m Scimitar (Standard; at-will) * Weapon +16 vs. AC; 1d8+6 M Twin Scimitars (Standard; at-will) * Weapon Make two Scimitar attacks M Bloodletting (Immediate, when an enemy becomes bloodied by a melee attack; at-will) * Weapon A scimitar attack against that enemy M Cascade of Steel (Standard; at-will) * Weapon +16 vs. AC; 1d8+6 AND repeat. Maximum 4 attacks M Looming Threat (Reaction, when an adjacent enemy shifts; at-will) * Weapon A Scimitar attack against that enemy M Sudden Riposte (Immediate, when an adjacent enemy misses with a melee attack; at-will) * Weapon A scimitar attack against that enemy Multiple Threats Adjacent enemies are flanked Str 12 (+6) Dex 22 (+11) Wis 14 (+7) Con 16 (+8) Int 4 (+2) Cha 10 (+5) Dwarf Warlord, Level 12 Soldier (Leader) Medium Natural Humanoid Init +11; Senses perception +11 HP 83; Bloodied 41 AC 28; Fortitude 23 Reflex 21 Will 17 Speed 5 m +3 Battleaxe (Standard; at-will) * Weapon +17 vs. AC; 1d12+8 r +3 Crossbow (Standard; at-will) * Weapon Range 15/30; +15 vs. AC; 1d8+3 M Drive into Peril (Standard; Recharge 5) * Weapon +17 vs. AC; 1d12+8 AND push 3 (no damage and push 1 on a miss). If enemy ends adjacent to an ally other than you, that ally can make an immediate basic melee attack against it C Hold the line (Standard; Recharge 6) Close burst 5; Allies get +4 AC untill end of this creature's next turn. Rally the Troops (Immediate; Recharge 4) Range 5; target ally can use a healing surge Skills: Endurance +10, Perception +11 Str +11 Dex +6 Wis +6 Con +8 Int +9 Cha +7 Shadow Demon Medium Elemental Humanoid (Demon) Level 11 Skirmisher AC 25, Fort 23, Ref 24, Will 22, HP 72, Bloodied 36, Init +8, Spd 2, Fly 8 (Hv) Senses: darkvision; Perception +6 Attacks: Melee Claw +13 vs Ref; 2d6+4 AND shadow drain (save ends; see text) Shadow Drain Ongoing necrotic 5; save -5 until ends turn at least 5 from this creature, shadow creatures, or others afflicted by shadow drain. Limited Powers: Devouring Shadow Immediate, when first Bloodied; teleport adjacent to creature within 10 affected by shadow drain, 2d6+7 necrotic. Abilities: Deathport Immediate, when creature within 10 at 0 hp; teleport to its square. Skills Stealth +13 Balhannoth Large Aberrant Magical Beast Level 13 Skirmisher AC 27, Fort 26, Ref 22, Will 25, HP 80, Bloodied 40, Init +12, Spd 5, Clb 5 Senses darkvision, Perception +13 Attacks: Melee Tentacle Reach 3; +19 vs AC, 2d6+8 AND push/pull 3 Sneak Attack +3d6 damage with combat adv Limited Powers: Reality Distortion Move; teleport 5 AND combat adv against all adjacent after teleport. Recharge 4 5 6. Tentacle Flurry Standard; Melee attack against each in reach. Recharge 5 6. Warp Attack Reaction; if attacked by enemy within 3, roll d20: 1-9 miss and pull attacker 1; 10+ resolve normally. Recharge 4 5 6. Skills: Stealth +17. Spectral Panther Medium Shadow Beast Level 9 Lurker AC 24, Fort 21, Ref 23, Will 19, HP 46, Bloodied 23, Init +13, Spd 7 Senses Perception +7 Attacks: Melee Claw +17 vs AC, 1d8+5 Melee Shadow Pounce Requires combat advantage; +14 vs AC; 3d8+5; charge OK. Abilities: Invisibility Standard, in spectral form only, invisibility 1 rd. Visible when leaves spectral form. Spectral Form Standard; insubstantial, phasing, can’t attack. Free action to leave spectral form. Skills: Stealth +12 (+17 in spectral form) Bodak Skulk Medium shadow humanoid (undead) Level 16 Lurker XP 1,400 Initiative +16 Senses Perception +10; darkvision Agonizing Gaze (Fear, Necrotic) aura 5; a creature in the aura that makes a melee or ranged attack against the bodak skulk takes 5 necrotic damage before the attack roll is made and takes a -2 penalty to the attack roll. HP 124; Bloodied 62 AC 29, Fortitude 29, Reflex 27, Will 29 Immune disease, poison; Resist 15 necrotic; Vulnerable 5 radiant; a bodak skulk that takes radiant damage cannot weaken a target until the end of its next turn. Speed 6 Slam (standard; at-will) * Necrotic +21 vs. AC; 1d6 + 5 damage plus 2d6 necrotic damage, and the target is weakened until the end of the bodak skulk's next turn. Death Gaze (standard; encounter) * Necrotic Range 10; targets a living creature; +19 vs. Fortitude; If the target is weakened, it is reduced to 0 hit points; otherwise, the target takes 1d6 + 6 necrotic damage and loses 1 healing surge. Spectral Form (standard; at-will) The bodak skulk turns invisible and gains the insubstantial and phasing qualities. It can do nothing but move in spectral form, and it can return to its normal form as a free action. Alignment Evil Languages Common Str 21 (+13) Dex 19 (+12) Wis 15 (+10) Con 22 (+14) Int 6 (+6) Cha 23 (+14) Bodak Reaver Medium shadow humanoid (undead) Level 18 Soldier XP 2,000 Initiative +16 Senses Perception +17; darkvision Agonizing Gaze (Fear, Necrotic) aura 5; a creature in the aura that makes a melee or ranged attack against the bodak skulk takes 5 necrotic damage before the attack roll is made and takes a -2 penalty to the attack roll. HP 175; Bloodied 87 AC 31, Fortitude 31, Reflex 30, Will 31 Immune disease, poison; Resist 20 necrotic; Vulnerable 5 radiant; a bodak skulk that takes radiant damage cannot weaken a target until the end of its next turn. Speed 5 Greataxe (standard; at-will) * Necrotic, Weapon +23 vs. AC; 1d12 + 6 damage (crit 2d12 + 18) plus 1d8 necrotic damage, and the target is dazed and weakened (save ends both). Death Gaze (standard; encounter) * Necrotic Range 10; targets a living creature; +20 vs. Fortitude; If the target is weakened, it is reduced to 0 hit points; otherwise, the target takes 1d6 + 6 necrotic damage and loses 1 healing surge. Death Drinker * Healing If a living creature is reduced to 0 hit points within 5 squares of the bodak reaver, the reaver gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls until the end of it's next turn as well as 15 temporary hit points. Alignment Evil Languages Common Str 22 (+15) Dex 21 (+14) Wis 16 (+12) Con 23 (+15) Int 10 (+9) Cha 23 (+15) Boneclaw Large shadow animate (undead) Level 14 Soldier XP 1,000 Initiative +15 Senses Perception +13; darkvision HP 136; Bloodied 68; see also necrotic pulse AC 30, Fortitude 24, Reflex 27, Will 25 Immune disease, poison; Resist 20 necrotic; Vulnerable 5 radiant Speed 8 Claw (standard; at-will) Reach 3; +20 vs. AC; 1d12 + 6 damage. Necrotic Pulse (immediate reaction, when first bloodied; encounter) * Healing, Necrotic Close burst 10; undead allies in the burst regain 10 hit points, and enemies in the burst take 10 necrotic damage. Relentless Opportunist If the boneclaw hits with an opportunity attack, it makes another opportunity attack against the same target the next time it provokes during its current turn. Threatening Reach The boneclaw can make opportunity attacks against all enemies within reach (3 squares). Alignment Evil Languages Common Skills Intimidate +16, Stealth +18 Str 17 (+10) Dex 23 (+13) Wis 12 (+8) Con 16 (+10) Int 10 (+7) Cha 18 (+11) Chuul, Level 10 Soldier (XP 500) Large aberrant magical beast (aquatic) Initiative +10; Senses Perception +9; darkvision HP 109; Bloodied 54 AC 27; Fortitude 26, Reflex 20, Will 21 Speed 6, swim 6 m Claw (standard; at-will) Reach 2; +17 vs. AC; 1d6+6 damage, or 3d6+6 damage against an immobilized creature M Double Attack (standard; at-will) * Paralysis, Poison The chuul makes two claw attacks. If both attacks hit a single target, the chuul makes a secondary attack against the same target with its tentacles. Secondary Attack: +14 vs. Fortitude; the target is immobilized (save ends) Tentacle Net * Paralysis, Poison A creature hit by a chuul's opportunity attack is immobilized until the end of the chuul's next turn. Alignment Unaligned; Languages Deep Speech Str 22 (+11) Dex 16 (+8) Wis 18 (+9) Con 21 (+10) Int 4 (+2) Cha 14 (+7) Chuul Juggernaut, Level 23 Elite Soldier (XP 10,700) Huge aberrant magical beast (aquatic) Initiative +17; Senses Perception +17; darkvision Psychic Moan (psychic) aura 1; a chuul juggernaut exudes a constant hum of psychic energy. Enemies in the aura take a -2 penalty to Will defense and gain vulnerable 5 psychic. HP 434; Bloodied 217 AC 39; Fortitude 37 Reflex 31 Will 33 Saving Throws +2 Speed 7, swim 7 Action Points 1 m Claw (standard; at-will) Reach 3; +30 vs. AC; 2d8+8 damage, or 5d8+8 damage against an immobilized creature. M Double Attack (standard; at-will) * Paralysis, Poison The chuul juggernaut makes two claw attacks. If both claw attacks hit a single target, the chuul juggernaut makes a secondary attack against the same target with its tentacles. Secondary Attack: +28 vs. Fortitude; the target is immobilized (save ends). R Psychic Lure (standard; at-will) * Psychic Range 10; +29 vs. Will; 2d10+3 psychic damage, and the target is pulled 5 squares. Tentacle Net * Paralysis, Poison A creature hit by a chuul juggernaut's opportunity attack is immobilized until the end of the juggernaut's next turn. Alignment Unaligned; Languages Deep Speech Str 27 (+19) Dex 19 (+15) Wis 22 (+17) Con 25 (+18) Int 4 (+8) Cha 16 (+14) Ice Archon Level 19 Soldier Medium Elemental Humanoid (Cold) Init +21 Spd 6 AC 36 Fort 33 Ref 31 Will 29 HP 117/58 Senses Perception +13 Resist cold 25 Attacks Warhammer +23 vs AC; 1d10+9+5 cold AND Slowed 1 rd Relentless Strike: +4 attack and +10 damage to Slowed Abilities: Icy Ground Adjacent squares difficult terrain, cold creatures not affected Str 28 (+18) Con 18 (+13) Dex 24 (+16) Int 12 (+10) Wis 18 (+13) Cha 12 (+10) (Cant read the actual ability scores) 18DELTA;)
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 11:55 AM	-This is a little something I found on Monte Cooks site. [URL=http://www.enworld.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=32847] -The link didn't work. I mean, it did, but since I don't go to that site, I didn't have 'permission'. Feh, I should have permission everywhere.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-06-08, 11:55 AM	I got kinda used to the whole keystone-cop presentation of evil... makes me feel all warm and squishy inside really, so I'm going to be keeping it, like an old security blanket to keep me warm at night... *laughs* Me too.:) But I always try to remember that if the Zhents as a whole truly were stupid, then they probably would never have become a serious threat, either.
18DELTA 03-06-08, 12:36 PM	-Here is the link to the spells that have been posted.Wizards Spells Levels 10 to 16 (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4082413&postcount=1);) Scoop - Wizard Spells 10-16 Two Page Spread -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last day of the con had the juiciest PHB spread - wizard spells. The spread begins with a partial of Level 10 Utility Spells and ends with a partial of Level 16 Utility spells, so there should be more of each of those. Everything else should, I guess, be complete for the levels listed. My picture was cropped in the lower left corner so I missed a single thing - the # of dice Mesmeric Hold does. I'm not uploading all the pictures at this time, just a couple to prevent any accusations. Level 10 Utility Spells Mirror Image Wizard Utility 10 'Three duplicate images of you appear, imitating your actions perfectly and confusing your enemies.' Daily * Arcane, Illusion Minor Action Personal Effect: Three duplicate images of yourself appear in your space, and you gain a +6 power bonus to AC. Each time an attack misses you, one of your duplicate images disap- pears and the bonus granted by this power decreases by 2. When the bonus reaches 0, all your images are gone and the power ends. Otherwise, the effect lasts for 1 hour. Resistance Wizard Utility 10 'You make yourself or another creature in range resistant to a particular kind of damage.' Daily * Arcane Minor Action Ranged 10 Target: You or one creature Effect: Against a particular damage type chosen by you, the target gains resistance equal to your level + your Intel- ligence modifier until the end of the encounter or for 5 minutes. Choose the damage type from the following list: acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, necrotic, poison, psychic, radiant, or thunder. Level 13 Encounter Spells Frostburn Wizard Attack 13 'You whisper a word of elemental power and hurl a flaming ball of ice. Waves of fire and ice explode outward from the point of impact.' Encounter * Arcane, Cold, Fire, Implement Standard Action Area burst 2 within 20 squares Target: Each creature in burst Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude Hit: 3d6 + Intelligence modifier cold and fire damage. Effect: This power's area is difficult terrain until the end of your next turn. Any creature that starts its turn in the area takes 5 cold and fire damage. You can dismiss the effect as a minor action. Mesmeric Hold Wizard Attack 13 'You immobilize your foes by commanding them to remain still.' Encounter * Arcane, Charm, Implement, Psychic Standard Action Ranged 10 Targets: One, two, or three creatures Attack: Intelligence vs. Will, one attack per target Special: If you target only one creature with this power, you gain a +4 power bonus to the attack roll. Hit: ?d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and the target is immobilized until the end of your next turn. Prismatic Burst Wizard Attack 13 'You lob a fist-sized orb of pulsating white light some distance away, blasting creatures in the area with rays of multicolored light.' Encounter * Arcane, Implement, Radiant Standard Action Area burst 2 within 20 squares Target: Each creature in burst Attack: Intelligence vs. Will Hit: 3d6 + Intelligence modifier radiant damage, and the target is blinded until the end of your next turn. Thunderlance Wizard Attack 13 'A thunderous pulse of concussive energy rolls from your hand, bowling over your enemies.' Encounter * Arcane, Implement, Thunder Standard Action Close blast 5 Target: Each creature in blast Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex Hit: 4d6 + Intelligence moidifer thunder damage, and you push the target 4 squares. Level 15 Daily Spells Bigby's Grasping Hands Wizard Attack 15 'Two hands of glowing golden force materialize, grab a couple of your foes, and slam them together.' Daily * Arcane, Conjuration, Force, Implement Standard Action Ranged 10 Effect: You conjure two 5-foot tall hands of force, each one occupying 1 square within range. Each hand attacks one adjacent creature. A hand that is not grabbing a target can be moved and made to attack a new target within range as a move action. The hands last until the end of your next turn. Targets: One or two creatures Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex Hit: 2d10 + Intelligence modifier force damage, and the hand grabs the target. If the target attempts to escape, the hand uses your Fortitude or Reflex defense. Special: If the hands have each grabbed an enemy, you can slam the enemies into each other as a standard action dealing 2d10 + Intelligence modifier force damage to each grabbed target. After the attack, each hand returns to its original square with its grabbed target. Sustain Minor: The hands persist. Blast of Cold Wizard Attack 15 'You create a tremendous blast of supernatural cold, freezing your enemies.' Daily * Arcane, Cold, Implement Standard Action Close blast 5 Target: Each enemy in blast Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex Hit: 6d6 + Intelligence modifier cold damage, and tar- get is immobilized (save ends). Miss: Half damage, and the target is slowed (save ends). Otiluke's Resilient Sphere Wizard Attack 15 'You trap your enemy in a transparent, immobile globe of impen- etrable force.' Daily * Arcane, Conjuration, Force, Implement Standard Action Ranged 10 Target: One creature Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex Hit: You conjure a sphere of force that fills the target's entire space until the end of your next turn. The target is immobilized and can't attack anything outside its own space. Creatures outside the sphere can't attack the target, and the sphere blocks objects and creatures attempting to pass through it. The sphere, though impenetrable, is not impervious to damage. Attacks against the sphere automatically hit, and it has 100 hit points. Sustain Minor: If your attack roll was successful, you can sustain the sphere. Miss: The target is immobilized (save ends). Special: Instead of attacking an enemy, you can put the sphere around yourself or a willing ally within range without making an attack roll. Prismatic Beams Wizard Attack 15 'Scintillating beams of rainbow-colored light spring from your outstretched hand, affecting your foes in unpredictable ways.' Daily * Arcane, Fire, Implement, Poison Standard Action Close burst 5 Target: Each enemy in burst Attack: Intelligence vs Fortitude, Reflex, Will Hit (Fortitude): If the attack hits the target's Fortitude de- fense, the target takes 2d6 + Intelligence modifier poison damage, and ongoing 5 poison damage (save ends). Hit (Reflex): If the attack hits the target's Reflex defense, the target takes 2d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage, and ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends). Hit (Will): If the attack hits the target's Will defense, the target is dazed (save ends). Special: You make only one attack per target, but compare that attack result against all three defenses. A target might be subject to any, all, or none of the effects depending on how many of its defenses were hit. The target must make a saving throw against each ongoing effect separately. Wall of Ice Wizard Attack 15 'A wall of glittering, jagged ice appears at your command.' Daily * Arcane, Cold, Conjuration, Implement Standard Action Area wall 12 within 10 squares Effect: You conjure a solid wall of contiguous squares filled with arcane ice. The wall can be up to 12 squares long and up to 6 squares high. Any creature that starts its turn adjacent to the wall takes 2d6 + Intelligence modifier cold damage. The wall blocks line of sight and prevents movement. No creature can enter a square containing the wall. Special: As a standard action, a creature can attack one square of the wall. Each square has 50 hit points. Any creature that makes a melee attack against the wall takes 2d6 cold damage. The wall has vulnerability 25 to fire. If the wall is not destroyed, it melts away after 1 hour. Level 16 Utility Spells Displacement Wizard Utility 16 'The recipient of this spell appears to be standing slightly to the left or right of his actual position, making it harder for enemies to kill him.' Encounter * Arcane, Illusion Immediate Interrupt Ranged 5 Trigger: A ranged or a melee attack hits you or one ally in range Effect: The attacker must reroll the attack roll. Fly Wizard Utility 16 'You leap into the air and don't look back.' Daily * Arcane Standard Action Personal Effect: You gain a speed of fly 8 until the end of your next turn. Sustain Minor: You can sustain this power until the end of the encounter or for 5 minutes. If you don't sustain it, you float to the ground without taking falling damage. Greater Invisibility Wizard Utility 16 'With a wave of your hand, you or another creature nearby fades away, becoming invisible' Daily * Arcane, Illusion Standard Action Ranged 20 Target: You or one creature Effect: The target is invisible until the end of your next turn. If the target attacks, the target becomes visible. Sustain Minor: If the target is within range, you can sustain the effect. You can infer some pretty interesting things from this - namely progression of powers. Utility power at 10 and 16 that can be encounter or daily. Encounter power at 13. Daily power at 15. Also gives a good feel for how damage expands over time (not a ton) and a pseudo-glimpse of summoned monsters (bigby's). -I kinda like them. Simple.;) 18DELTA:D
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 12:58 PM	"...flaming ball of ice" -That made me chuckle. -Thanks for fixing that link, Delta.
RanielK 03-06-08, 01:03 PM	-Here is the link to the spells that have been posted.Wizards Spells Levels 10 to 16 (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4082413&postcount=1);) -I kinda like them. Simple.;) 18DELTA:D Yeah, they are pretty straightforward and easy to use. I find it interesting that Fly is delayed until 16th level. Midway up the Paragon tier versus showing up around level 7 or 8.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-06-08, 07:05 PM	"...flaming ball of ice" -That made me chuckle. Maybe it's, uh, magical "ice flame" or something...?:thinks:
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 07:12 PM	Maybe it's, uh, magical "ice flame" or something...?:thinks: -Well, frozen flames are nothing new. See Chrono Trigger. It just gave me the image of applying Icy-Hot to the genitals...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-06-08, 07:19 PM	-Well, frozen flames are nothing new. See Chrono Trigger. It just gave me the image of applying Icy-Hot to the genitals... OH-HO!:eek: :D :rofl:
Rauric 03-06-08, 07:34 PM	-Yes, but because of TSR rules in novels, which, to paraphrase, said that the bad guys need to always lose, and do so in a bumbling manner, many people have come to associate the Zhents with that bumbling kind of Keystone Kops behavior. And, as we all know with things, perception is everything. That is true. That is why I just use novels for ideas and to help give me a "feel" for an area.
BadCatMan 03-06-08, 07:52 PM	Escape From Sembia? Is there a character named Snake Plissken? :D
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 08:12 PM	Escape From Sembia? Is there a character named Snake Plissken? :D -If there wasn't before, I am sure there is now.
selunatic2397 03-07-08, 12:24 AM	I did actually have a player that named his ranger that name. Unlike his namesake...he was gutted by a truly lucky orc...I do love it when I roll a pair of natural twenties right in front of my players! He didn't even last an entire hour. :evillaugh
Vared 03-07-08, 06:09 AM	The Zhentarim organisation is run by a clever bunch in my version of the Realms. Many of their more important agents are deviously clever, as well. But sure, they have their fair share of idiots, too. However, someone who cannot think properly tend to end up dead more sooner than later, though. On a side note: WoWification of the Realms... Horrid, horrid, horrid. Wowification of anything at all... Horrid beyond belief.
Storm_Silverhand 03-07-08, 06:30 AM	Heya, :rolleyes: What is wrong with people? I am sincerely tired of people bashing World of Warcraft. You know what? Have a think about this... Without Dungeons and Dragons there wouldn't be a World of Warcraft. So before opening your mouths about WoW, have a think about where it came from. I say this as both a DnD and WoW player. (Dinged my main to 70 this week on Quel'dorei, whee! I have a gryphon now!) Edit: One more thing to think about, Role Playing is more about the group and the Role Playing as it is about the system of rules you use.
18DELTA 03-07-08, 06:30 AM	"...flaming ball of ice" -That made me chuckle. -Thanks for fixing that link, Delta. -:tiphat: 18DELTA:dragon:
Alediran 03-07-08, 06:50 AM	Zan, I played WoW a couple months with a gnome mage, because I had no elf mage for the alliance (:·"$%"·$%F"%$"D$%"$), if you've read the article I posted at the begining everything is being homogeneized so the fighter with his big phalic piece of metal doesn't feels inferior to the Smart Wizard changing reality. I even dare to say that at least in WoW you don't even have to roll to hit with Arcane Missile, which is now what you have to do with the 4th ed Magic Missile :confused:. One of the things I most hated of WoW was the too clicheed and few abilities that characters had, the Mage had fire/ice/a few force effects, it never gave me the same satisfaction than playing a Wizard in NWN without any patch or expansion, that's not even counting playing Alediran in PnP. And know in 4th edition Wizard will became almost the same thing that Mages in WoW.
Lord Karsus 03-07-08, 06:57 AM	Without Dungeons and Dragons there wouldn't be a World of Warcraft. So before opening your mouths about WoW, have a think about where it came from. -Right...But, what does that have to do with anything? Baseball, in all of it's forms, was developed from an ancient Russian game called Lapta. If baseball's rules were changed to reflect more of Lapta's rules, I'd be extremely angry. If Lapta's rules were changed to reflect more of baseball's rules, those who play Lapta would be angry. And, we'd all be perfectly justified in our collective anger. -Mind you, I've never so much as touched the box for World of Warcraft, and did not find out what it was until fiarly recently, so...
Khaelieth 03-07-08, 07:06 AM	Seen this coming. As for how much i disliked the preparing spell system, removing spheres in 3rd ed, the death of the thief, rogues in general, WotSQ and a lot of terrible novels (imo), 3rd ed wasn't that bad. Already when looking at the rogue i decided not to buy it, as it was too much like the WoW version (never ever sullied myself with that game because i play an RP game, Ultima Online). But even if a lot of people think WoW's a great game, what works there won't work for the Realms.
Rauric 03-07-08, 07:21 AM	This has nothing to do with anything but I always got a kick out of how nerds (basically all of us ;) ) can rip on other nerdy games or hobbies. When I play WOW and mentione D&D I can get a few people telling me to get a life. When I am in my game store and mention WOW I get a few ofthe fat slobs withg the D&D t-shirts on telling me to get alife. It is all pretty silly. The gaming hobby is still pretty nerdy whether it is tabletop or PC version. It is just funny to me that humans are like that, they love to think what theygot is the best and all the other people are wrong.
Lord Karsus 03-07-08, 07:25 AM	This has nothing to do with anything but I always got a kick out of how nerds (basically all of us ;) ) can rip on other nerdy games or hobbies. -That's any group, anywhere. Baseball jocks think football jocks are stupid. Star Wars fanboys don't like Star Trek fanboys. Northerners don't like southerners.
Rauric 03-07-08, 07:59 AM	-That's any group, anywhere. Baseball jocks think football jocks are stupid. Star Wars fanboys don't like Star Trek fanboys. Northerners don't like southerners. Yep. Gamers are bashed more in general if they openly admit to what they do. You think that would let them be a bit more open minded. It does not seem the case though.
Lord Karsus 03-07-08, 08:13 AM	Gamers are bashed more in general if they openly admit to what they do. -Not any more or less than any other group that has practices and/or ideas that differ from the mainstream.
Rauric 03-07-08, 08:21 AM	It is a bit different. Since these ideas of ours are not religious or deal with our sexual orientation or cultural background we can be open game for anyone to make fun of us. We don't get the PC treatment. Which is fine, I can take it. Anyway, I play both games WOW and D&D and get a kick out of how both groups sometime feel like they are superior to the other. After playing both I realize there are people in both groups that get too "involved" with each game. After a while the outside world and other activities are an afterthought.
Lord Karsus 03-07-08, 08:26 AM	It is a bit different. Since these ideas of ours are not religious or deal with our sexual orientation or cultural background we can be open game for anyone to make fun of us. We don't get the PC treatment. Which is fine, I can take it. -I wasn't talking about things like religion, or sexual orientation. I meant things like 'Star Wars Geeks', 'Star Trek Fanboys', 'Anime Otakus', and similar things. They are all 'open game', along with Video game people, D&D people, M:tG people, and so on.
Rauric 03-07-08, 08:39 AM	-I wasn't talking about things like religion, or sexual orientation. I meant things like 'Star Wars Geeks', 'Star Trek Fanboys', 'Anime Otakus', and similar things. They are all 'open game', along with Video game people, D&D people, M:tG people, and so on. Ah ok. Yeah, those groups often want to point at the others and say "I am not as bad as them." Every group has its exremists though. Faer of Girls is a good film about it for D&D. Does SW have one? South Park did a good job with WOW.
Lord Karsus 03-07-08, 09:12 AM	Does SW have one? -The people who honestly believe they are Jedi, maybe. I remember, a long time ago, seeing one of those MTV TV shows about a 30something year old man who was a die-hard Star Wars fan, to the point that it strained his relationship with his own son. -And then, of course, there is that jackass, Steven Sansweet, who is lauded as the #1 Star Wars fan. The ass got divourced with his wife, and mortgaged his house off to pay for his Star Wars collection hobby. :nonono: South Park did a good job with WOW. -What was that?
Yaeri 03-07-08, 12:56 PM	-What was that? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jueNN5yFW28 Sadly I can not find the second part of the episode. If you're wondering what that "Leroy Jenkins" thing at the utter beginning is, well there was this one time when a big group of WoW players were discussing tactics before venturing into a kick-ass dangerous dungeon. Leroy Jenkins, one of the players was away from his keyboard for a while, and this is what happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkCNJRfSZBU (You'll have to sit and watch through the first minute and 20 seconds before something happens) After this video got posted Leroy Jenkins became somewhat of a famous phenomenon.
GreenKnight 03-07-08, 01:08 PM	if you've read the article I posted at the begining everything is being homogeneized so the fighter with his big phalic piece of metal doesn't feels inferior to the Smart Wizard changing reality. It isn't a question of feeling inferior. It's a question of being inferior. You think an RPG should set out to have one character class which is overwhelmingly better then another? I don't know about you, but personally, I don't like the idea of the Fighter player being punished for his choice the higher level his character becomes. If I wanted that sort of thing, I'd play Rifts, which doesn't even pretend to have a semblance of character balance.
Lord Karsus 03-07-08, 01:16 PM	You think an RPG should set out to have one character class which is overwhelmingly better then another? -Everybody and everything has it's own strength and weakness.
GreenKnight 03-07-08, 01:17 PM	-Everybody and everything has it's own strength and weakness. Which is the point of balancing the classes, so they all fulfill different roles, instead of the Wizard having the ability to do everyone's jobs, and in some instances, do it better.
Lord Karsus 03-07-08, 01:19 PM	Which is the point of balancing the classes, so they all fulfill different roles, instead of the Wizard having the ability to do everyone's jobs, and in some instances, do it better. -In terms of running up and hacking things with a sword, Barbarians and Fighters put Wizards and Sorcerers to shame, Tenser's Transformation included.
GreenKnight 03-07-08, 01:22 PM	Past a certain point, Wizards can inflict far more damage then a Fighter or Barbarian ever can with a sword.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-07-08, 02:02 PM	-Mind you, I've never so much as touched the box for World of Warcraft, and did not find out what it was until fiarly recently, so... Nor have I. Partly because from what I've heard, the gameplay isn't my style, partly because being one among so many players is overwhelming for me, partly because I don't prefer multiplayer online games (except perhaps with people I know), partly because the game is apparently very addicting and I know I would likely get caught up in it like many others, to my detriment.:) All that being said, though, I have nothing against people who do enjoy the style of gaming World of Warcraft has to offer. I've played Diablo (often sited as an example of "mindless point-and-click entertainment") and enjoyed it. To each, their own.
Alediran 03-07-08, 02:10 PM	But a Wizard who does that doesn't lasts much as useful member of the party. Going nova and wasting every useful spell you have in the seccond encounter is a sign of inexperience. In my current campaign I never went out of spells before resting.
Storm_Silverhand 03-07-08, 05:54 PM	Heya, Zan, I played WoW a couple months with a gnome mage, because I had no elf mage for the alliance (:·"$%"·$%F"%$"D$%"$), if you've read the article I posted at the begining everything is being homogeneized so the fighter with his big phalic piece of metal doesn't feels inferior to the Smart Wizard changing reality. I even dare to say that at least in WoW you don't even have to roll to hit with Arcane Missile, which is now what you have to do with the 4th ed Magic Missile :confused:. One thing I'd dearly love to see in WoW is Alliance getting High Elves as a race, and therefore getting an arcane based elven race. Don't get me wrong, I love Night Elves, but there's just something about Blood Elves (who were formerly High Elves) that is a huge draw for me... Unfortunately, not so much of a draw that I can overcome my aversion to the Horde. (The Horde are supposed to be just as neutral as the Alliance with regard to Good vs Evil, but when you do a straight comparison of the quests, Horde quests are definitely more Evil than good - you get to help the Forsaken work on a plague to change everyone into undead (even if you're not Forsaken yourself, and therefore very strongly opposed to that idea in the first place), you get to help the Orcs clearfell Ashenvale (even if you're a nature loving Tauren), and plenty of other things. I guess once Horde get to about level 30 or so they start getting similar quests to Alliance and begin to work from neutral quest hubs a bit more... But I've never managed to get myself to that point, sadly.) I do have an Alliance mage, I went with the Draenei as a race. I like them, they're different to wizards and sorcerers from Dungeons and Dragons, they can run out of things to do (by going out of mana in an encounter), and they do require some brains to play especially in a group (you don't want to out DPS the Tank's threat, because you're squishy). One of the things I most hated of WoW was the too clicheed and few abilities that characters had, the Mage had fire/ice/a few force effects, it never gave me the same satisfaction than playing a Wizard in NWN without any patch or expansion, that's not even counting playing Alediran in PnP. And know in 4th edition Wizard will became almost the same thing that Mages in WoW. Well maybe I haven't read up on this stuff as much as you have, but thus far I fail to see how WoW Mage = 4th Ed Wizard. I sincerely doubt you'll find 4th Ed Wizards with as limited a spell selection as a WoW Mage. I get that you don't like WoW, but I think your argument is stretching things a little too far.
Diffan 03-07-08, 07:40 PM	-In terms of running up and hacking things with a sword, Barbarians and Fighters put Wizards and Sorcerers to shame, Tenser's Transformation included. True, but the classes are still no where near balanced at higher levels. Fighters would need ALOT of magical equipment to make up for what they lack. Taking a lvl 20 fighter vs a lvl 20 wizard with no magical equipment the wizard wins, every time, hands down. Also, theres the playing factor, at high levels wizards get the benefits of cool and fun spells while the fighter gets really nothing but advanced attacks, skills, and a bonus feat. If it weren't for Tactical feats and the source book Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords, i'd never even consider playing the fighter/tank character because of how boring it is.
Lobotaru 03-07-08, 08:00 PM	I was a WoW player until relatively recently. Technically, if you look at what changes have been presented through Races and Classes and online articles, you'll find that there may be concepts from some MMOs added to the system, but it is overall still D&D at heart. D&D's major weakness was the singular role focus of each class and how they couldn't be good in anything but their particular niche. Fighters were useless outside of combat, wizards could not take surprises due to lengthly preperation time, and clerics really didn't do anything but spam cure spells for dieing party members. Not to mention, classes were so firmly entrenched in their roles that the game made it hard to survive without being a typical cooky cruncher party of fighter, cleric, rogue, and wizard. So obviously, WotC will make changes to the system that will hopefully give each class something to do outside its niche and allow other party combinations to exist.
Lord Karsus 03-08-08, 01:07 AM	Past a certain point, Wizards can inflict far more damage then a Fighter or Barbarian ever can with a sword. True, but the classes are still no where near balanced at higher levels. Fighters would need ALOT of magical equipment to make up for what they lack. Taking a lvl 20 fighter vs a lvl 20 wizard with no magical equipment the wizard wins, every time, hands down. Also, theres the playing factor, at high levels wizards get the benefits of cool and fun spells while the fighter gets really nothing but advanced attacks, skills, and a bonus feat. If it weren't for Tactical feats and the source book Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords, i'd never even consider playing the fighter/tank character because of how boring it is. -At, say, 20th Level, a Barbarian/Fighter can have upwards of 200+ Hit Points. According to the DMG, characters of that level should have something like 500,000 GP worth of equipment, in whatever form it takes. Wizards/Sorcerers have about 80, doing the same exact math (Max Hit Die multiplied by 20), with the same amount of equipment. -Do Sorcerers/Wizards 'outshine' Fighters/Barbarians? In plenty of cases, sure. They certainly have the capacity to do more damage, in many situations. As I said, there is a niche for everyone. The Barbarian/Fighter is a front-line, melee, hack-and-slash-'em character class. The Sorcerer/Wizard is a hurl-magic-at-'em-from-a-safe-distance-back character class. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Stick a Sorcerer/Wizard in the front lines, and they'll last for as long as their magic can keep enemies away from them. Once melee combat begins, they are more or less screwed, unless they can get some defensive magics up. Conversely, in the back lines, Fighters/Barbarians do less damage, and don't get the opportunity to shine. -And then, of course, there's Clerics. :)
Lord Karsus 03-08-08, 01:09 AM	D&D's major weakness was the singular role focus of each class and how they couldn't be good in anything but their particular niche. Fighters were useless outside of combat, wizards could not take surprises due to lengthly preperation time, and clerics really didn't do anything but spam cure spells for dieing party members. Not to mention, classes were so firmly entrenched in their roles that the game made it hard to survive without being a typical cooky cruncher party of fighter, cleric, rogue, and wizard. -I wholly disagree with this. A character is what the player makes of him/her. I especially disagree with that Cleric bit.
Diffan 03-08-08, 07:42 AM	-At, say, 20th Level, a Barbarian/Fighter can have upwards of 200+ Hit Points. According to the DMG, characters of that level should have something like 500,000 GP worth of equipment, in whatever form it takes. Wizards/Sorcerers have about 80, doing the same exact math (Max Hit Die multiplied by 20), with the same amount of equipment. -Do Sorcerers/Wizards 'outshine' Fighters/Barbarians? In plenty of cases, sure. They certainly have the capacity to do more damage, in many situations. As I said, there is a niche for everyone. The Barbarian/Fighter is a front-line, melee, hack-and-slash-'em character class. The Sorcerer/Wizard is a hurl-magic-at-'em-from-a-safe-distance-back character class. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Stick a Sorcerer/Wizard in the front lines, and they'll last for as long as their magic can keep enemies away from them. Once melee combat begins, they are more or less screwed, unless they can get some defensive magics up. Conversely, in the back lines, Fighters/Barbarians do less damage, and don't get the opportunity to shine. -And then, of course, there's Clerics. :) True, every class has a role to which they're suited. But we're comparing DnD and WoW right? In WoW, a properly build character (say warrior for example) can usually go toe to toe with another character (say mage) and have a very nice chance to kill the other reguardless of which classes they take (twinks excluded). Thats the balance of WoW. It's because of the classes, builds, and general game play that make both games totally different to each other and they have only the slightest comparisions such as classes like Paladin and some spells names. I've read alot about the 4e changes and I really can't see comparsions between that and the computer game. 4e characters wont have 'mana points', 1000-2500 hit points, abilities timed by rounds, etc. BTW- I love clerics :)
Lord Karsus 03-08-08, 09:50 AM	True, every class has a role to which they're suited. But we're comparing DnD and WoW right? -I'm not. I'm just saying. BTW- I love clerics :) -As do I. Supposedly, Clerics have a bad rep. I don't know.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-10-08, 01:50 PM	-I wholly disagree with this. A character is what the player makes of him/her. I especially disagree with that Cleric bit. Agreed.:) I never thought of clerics as "healing monkeys" (or whatever they're called?). The whole spontaneous healing thing was introduced precisely so clerics could feel free to memorize non-healing spells without worrying that they might need healing spells instead.
Ianten_Silverblade 03-10-08, 05:06 PM	Gygax is rolling in his grave. And I'm NOT TALKING ABOUT DICE! Oh this is a sad sad day for D&D.:nonono:
RanielK 03-11-08, 09:36 AM	Ah ok. Yeah, those groups often want to point at the others and say "I am not as bad as them." Every group has its exremists though. Faer of Girls is a good film about it for D&D. Does SW have one? South Park did a good job with WOW. Isn't there some kind of org chart which shows who is geekier? Sort of Star Trek fans are geekier than D&D players, but no one is as geeky as those who write fan fiction involving themselves as the hero and having a relationship with their favorite character.
RanielK 03-11-08, 09:39 AM	-The people who honestly believe they are Jedi, maybe. I remember, a long time ago, seeing one of those MTV TV shows about a 30something year old man who was a die-hard Star Wars fan, to the point that it strained his relationship with his own son. -And then, of course, there is that jackass, Steven Sansweet, who is lauded as the #1 Star Wars fan. The ass got divourced with his wife, and mortgaged his house off to pay for his Star Wars collection hobby. :nonono: Wasn't there the movies Trekies which showed (amongst other things) the fan who went to work everyday dressed in a Star Fleet uniform and insisted everyone call her Commander? She seemed 100% convinced that her Star Fleet assignment was to work in this print shop. Now one has to wonder if she was off her meds at the time.
Rauric 03-11-08, 09:48 AM	Wasn't there the movies Trekies which showed (amongst other things) the fan who went to work everyday dressed in a Star Fleet uniform and insisted everyone call her Commander? She seemed 100% convinced that her Star Fleet assignment was to work in this print shop. Now one has to wonder if she was off her meds at the time. I remember seeing one dentist wears a medical uniform from Star Trek TNG and his office is "Trekked" out. These hobbies we like are a bastion for the unwanted and socially sad. I know people that would have loved to pick up some dice but were afraid of the stigma surrounding the game. This goes all the way back to highschool. I recently have brought in some new blood that never played the PnP version but only played the MMORG style rpgs. He is having a blast. I think more people who played PC games would too if they just gave it a try. Same goes for the people who are afraid of the stigma.
RanielK 03-11-08, 09:50 AM	True, but the classes are still no where near balanced at higher levels. Fighters would need ALOT of magical equipment to make up for what they lack. Taking a lvl 20 fighter vs a lvl 20 wizard with no magical equipment the wizard wins, every time, hands down. Also, theres the playing factor, at high levels wizards get the benefits of cool and fun spells while the fighter gets really nothing but advanced attacks, skills, and a bonus feat. If it weren't for Tactical feats and the source book Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords, i'd never even consider playing the fighter/tank character because of how boring it is. Yeah, but to be equal, the wizard would have to have no spells in his book beyond the 2 per level gained at level up. After all, the fighter's armor and weapon and what have you are the treasure he needs to be level appropriate. The wizard could forego all of that for more spells in the spellbook. So saying a fighter without gear isn't equal to a wizard with spells isn't comparing class balance. Now, fighters use both equipment and fighter feats to acheive their niche. Wizards use spells and everything it takes to increase spell slots or save dcs. Of course, spellcasters and their flexibility are more powerful in 3.x than most any other class. However, that is when they play to their strengths. You'll never convince me that a straight 20 Lvl Wizard will be a better meleer than a fighter with the right feats and equipment or the better stealth/trap finder than a rogue with the right tools and skills.
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 10:53 AM	Wasn't there the movies Trekies which showed (amongst other things) the fan who went to work everyday dressed in a Star Fleet uniform and insisted everyone call her Commander? She seemed 100% convinced that her Star Fleet assignment was to work in this print shop. Now one has to wonder if she was off her meds at the time. -I don't like Star Trek, so I wouldn't know. Though, you know what? I wouldn't b surprised.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-11-08, 12:43 PM	These hobbies we like are a bastion for the unwanted and socially sad. Statistics, please?
Soltares 03-11-08, 01:44 PM	Statistics, please? I believe the statement was self-referential. Most of the Trekkies I know are anything but sad. If anything, their enthusiasm makes me nervous.
Rauric 03-11-08, 02:24 PM	Nice, level headed people like our hobbies as well. I go to my local game store at times and cringe at times though.
Khaelieth 03-11-08, 02:40 PM	Nice, level headed people like our hobbies as well. I go to my local game store at times and cringe at times though. Yeah, a lot of gamers can be stereotyped. i walk in wearing a Mötley Crüe shirt, skin-tight jeans, aviators, bandana, leather jacket and complete with cowboy boots. Though, seen a fair few goths and emos hang around the shop too! That's quite odd; used to see more "nerdy" looking folks. Also, i have seen girls browse the store! Guess D&D doesn't belong to the nerds anymore!=)
Rauric 03-11-08, 02:54 PM	Yeah, a lot of gamers can be stereotyped. i walk in wearing a Mötley Crüe shirt, skin-tight jeans, aviators, bandana, leather jacket and complete with cowboy boots. Though, seen a fair few goths and emos hang around the shop too! That's quite odd; used to see more "nerdy" looking folks. Also, i have seen girls browse the store! Guess D&D doesn't belong to the nerds anymore!=) There is quite a bit of diversity to the store I go to as well. This is also because many different games are played there from CCGs, Minis, multiple genre RPGs and even some boardgames. Plus the owner recently placed PCs in the back as well as an Xbox-360. Lots of different types as well as that one guy who brought his 40k army to that special exotic dancer he likes. He brought the army to the strip club where she works. :looloo: True story.
Khaelieth 03-11-08, 03:19 PM	Yeah, same over here; boardgames, comics, RPG's, DVD's, Games Workshop products, CCG's, fantasy & sci-fi books etc. A lot of people there scare me; one made my brother double over in laughter. it's an excellent shop for what it does, but quite dear.
GothicDan 03-11-08, 03:24 PM	Well, not directly on topic... But apparently recent studies have shown, statistically, that people in the hard sciences and math fields tend to have more Autistic and Asperger's-ish tendencies. So I don't feel bad in "assuming" that a branch of entertainment abundant in such individuals would have socially inept people...
Khaelieth 03-11-08, 03:40 PM	Well, not directly on topic... But apparently recent studies have shown, statistically, that people in the hard sciences and math fields tend to have more Autistic and Asperger's-ish tendencies. So I don't feel bad in "assuming" that a branch of entertainment abundant in such individuals would have socially inept people... it's been statistically proven that medicine students get the most sex, whereas the maths students get the least. Heh. Happy i'm in biomedical;) Shall we try to veer this back on topic?
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 03:55 PM	it's been statistically proven that medicine students get the most sex, whereas the maths students get the least. Heh. Happy i'm in biomedical;) -What do Karsuses get?
Khaelieth 03-11-08, 04:04 PM	No registered results ;p
Rauric 03-11-08, 04:09 PM	No registered results ;p Cold as Ice!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-11-08, 08:30 PM	Nice, level headed people like our hobbies as well. I go to my local game store at times and cringe at times though. Right, but my point is I just won't take for granted that there are especially more weirdos in our hobby than in any other field of interest. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-11-08, 08:32 PM	-What do Karsuses get? Me!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-11-08, 08:34 PM	Well, not directly on topic... But apparently recent studies have shown, statistically, that people in the hard sciences and math fields tend to have more Autistic and Asperger's-ish tendencies. So I don't feel bad in "assuming" that a branch of entertainment abundant in such individuals would have socially inept people... Right, but socially inept doesn't necessarily mean "totally wacky and/or creepy."
Stigger 03-11-08, 08:43 PM	Truth of the matter aside, the popular perception is that we are a bunch of socially maladjusted dorks, geeks, and weirdos... that's changing of late thankfully, but old biases are hard for most to set aside, and so the stigma clings to the hobby. MMOs are much more socially acceptable forms of it, and while there isn't much difference in some respects between tabletop RPG and MMOs, there is a vast difference in the 'cool' factors that are associated with them. And honestly, I have met more than my share of wacked out and creepy RPGers out there... they may not be the majority, but they do tend to be loud and obvious, so they get the attention more than the average guy in the hobby does.
MarkusTay63 03-12-08, 01:03 AM	Too true - especially those 'Giant Robot' guys... Yeeesh. ;) :P Right, but socially inept doesn't necessarily mean "totally wacky and/or creepy."Okay, I love you again. You almost made me spit on my monitor with that one. "totally wacky and/or creepy." :rofl:
Diffan 03-12-08, 07:30 AM	Yeah, but to be equal, the wizard would have to have no spells in his book beyond the 2 per level gained at level up. After all, the fighter's armor and weapon and what have you are the treasure he needs to be level appropriate. The wizard could forego all of that for more spells in the spellbook. So saying a fighter without gear isn't equal to a wizard with spells isn't comparing class balance. Sure it is. Take something that could greatly help a fighter at higher levels. Say the Celestial Armor straight from the DMG. It allows the wearer to cast fly 1/day and costs 22,400 gp. Where as for a wizard who doesn't select fly for one of his 2 spells per level can easily buy a fly scroll for 375 gp and use it as many times=to his spell slots per day. My point is that wizards have to spend less money on things that can give them terrific benefits through their spells while a melee type character has to spend tons of $$ to gain the same (and more likely limited) effects. Now, fighters use both equipment and fighter feats to acheive their niche. Wizards use spells and everything it takes to increase spell slots or save dcs. Of course, spellcasters and their flexibility are more powerful in 3.x than most any other class. However, that is when they play to their strengths. You'll never convince me that a straight 20 Lvl Wizard will be a better meleer than a fighter with the right feats and equipment or the better stealth/trap finder than a rogue with the right tools and skills. I wasn't talking about a niche within a party but as a comparsion between 1 class and the next. A wizard probably wouldn't be a better melee combatant than a figher (but pretty close) or fill the gap of a rogue or cleric. I was just pointing out the fact that there is a bigger balance issue between the fighter/wizard in PnP D&D than there is in the WoW game. The source books like ToB:Bo9S and Weapon Style/Tactical Feats lessen that gap by a small margin and for me that's a start.
Khaelieth 03-12-08, 07:33 AM	Sure it is. Take something that could greatly help a fighter at higher levels. Say the Celestial Armor straight from the DMG. It allows the wearer to cast fly 1/day and costs 22,400 gp. Where as for a wizard who doesn't select fly for one of his 2 spells per level can easily buy a fly scroll for 375 gp and use it as many times=to his spell slots per day. My point is that wizards have to spend less money on things that can give them terrific benefits through their spells while a melee type character has to spend tons of $$ to gain the same (and more likely limited) effects. Excuse me, seen how much it costs to inscribe a spell? Still cheaper than the celestial armour, but it's not 375 gp.
Diffan 03-12-08, 07:51 AM	Excuse me, seen how much it costs to inscribe a spell? Still cheaper than the celestial armour, but it's not 375 gp. Materials and Cost: Materials for writing the spell (special quills, inks, and other supplies) cost 100 gp per page. Ok, so if a wizard were to buy a scroll at a magical shop (costing 375 gp), he could then study the scroll and make the required spellcraft check (for fly it would be DC 18). Then it would cost him another 300 gp (3 pages for the spell) in the afore mentioned materials totalling 675 gp with 1 day of work. Yes, I was wrong, but an additional 300 gp is hardly worth mentioning when compared to 22,400 for the armor.
Khaelieth 03-12-08, 08:09 AM	Ha, yeah, thought it was 1000 gp a page.
Alediran 03-12-08, 09:44 AM	Ok, so if a wizard were to buy a scroll at a magical shop (costing 375 gp), he could then study the scroll and make the required spellcraft check (for fly it would be DC 18). Then it would cost him another 300 gp (3 pages for the spell) in the afore mentioned materials totalling 675 gp with 1 day of work. Yes, I was wrong, but an additional 300 gp is hardly worth mentioning when compared to 22,400 for the armor. But the Armor also gives other protections and can be used by anybody with the proper proficiency, the inscribed spell is worthless unless in the hands of a Wizard who spends slots to prepare the spell, meaning that it has bigger requirements for a simple spell, multiply it for the dozens of spells a Wizard inscribes in his book (last time I did it I spent like 9000 gold on inscriptions, all 5th lvl and below spells, when I end the current chapter of my campaign he'll be able to inscribe 9th lvl spells, I already did the calculations for the spells I want and they'll cost me like 27000 gp, and I'm lucky that the Spellbook my character owns is magical and can recieve an infinite quantity of spells)
GothicDan 03-12-08, 09:49 AM	Right, but socially inept doesn't necessarily mean "totally wacky and/or creepy." True. Unless you're looking at people with full-blown Asperger's, then they happen to be the same. ;) PS: The only way to balance the Fighter and the Wizard is to either make the Fighter a Wizard, or the Wizard a Fighter. It's not going to happen!
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 10:18 AM	Me! -Mmm, that's worth it. The only way to balance the Fighter and the Wizard is to either make the Fighter a Wizard, or the Wizard a Fighter. It's not going to happen! -There's, uh...Warblades? That's what they're called? From the Player's Handbook II.
GothicDan 03-12-08, 10:31 AM	Warblades already seem Arcane to me. Which means they no longer even fall under the category of a "Fighter." That being said... Let's pit an Epic level Warblade against an Epic level wizard and see who wins. ;)
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 10:35 AM	Warblades already seem Arcane to me. Which means they no longer even fall under the category of a "Fighter." -Eh, I don't think so, but, I don't really care, so...;) That being said... Let's pit an Epic level Warblade against an Epic level wizard and see who wins. ;) -Depends on the circumstances. The text from the PHBII does specifically say, I remember, that the Warblade does have the capacity at higher levels to go toe-to-toe in a spellbattle with a Wizard/Sorcerer for a limited time. So...
GothicDan 03-12-08, 10:36 AM	Psht.
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 10:40 AM	-I'm just saying what it said. The Warblade could easily physically beat the crap out of the Wizard, that much is certain.
Khaelieth 03-12-08, 10:47 AM	Always been more keen on Wizards being more powerful. Power - it's such a nice word!
MarkusTay63 03-12-08, 12:32 PM	But Conan always beat Thoth-Amon, and he was THE epic Sorceror! Not very realistic, but definately very in-genre. Its a game, people, so balance is neccessary. In real-life, you don't get hit by a sword a few times and shirk it off, either. They want to make ALL the classes enjoyable options at epic levels, not just Mages, and I applaud them for that. Now lets see if they can actually pull it off. :rolleyes:
Khaelieth 03-12-08, 01:16 PM	Always saw the epic fighter as either (not using D&D chars): Achilles/Hector Conan Spartacus Ringwraith Lancelot/Tristan Túrin Turambar Gil-galad/Elendil with mages as Sauron Gandalf Merlin Morgan Le Fay *Facepalms* Forgot Morgoth.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-12-08, 02:01 PM	Okay, I love you again. You mean you didn't before? You almost made me spit on my monitor with that one. "totally wacky and/or creepy." :rofl: I'm so glad.;)
MarkusTay63 03-12-08, 02:43 PM	You pretty much described 90% of the people I associated with in HS. :D
BadCatMan 03-12-08, 09:05 PM	Warblade, Swordsage and Crusader, from Tome Of Battle: Book Of Nine Swords actually. Duskblade is from PHB2. But none of them is really throwing out save-or-dies or altering the nature of reality on a regular basis.
Diffan 03-13-08, 09:20 AM	-Depends on the circumstances. The text from the PHBII does specifically say, I remember, that the Warblade does have the capacity at higher levels to go toe-to-toe in a spellbattle with a Wizard/Sorcerer for a limited time. So... Well, take the highest level maneuver from one of the Warblade's disciplines called Strike of Perfect Clairty. You make a single attack as part of this strike. If the attack hits, it deals an additional 100 points of damage. Now, this coupled with say a Power-Leap attack with a two-handed weapon and Str damage could potentially destroy the wizard on the 1st turn (barring contingency spells of course). When it gets to epic levels, it usually comes down to two things: Immunities and Initiative. With the wizard's spell Nerveskitter giving him a +5 on his initiative bonus as an immediate action, more likely the wizard will win. From there it's Otto's Irrestable Dance for an average of 3 rounds then maybe Summon Monster IX with a wish spell or better yet hitting the fighter with a maximized disintegrate or meteor swarm (just for fun), and then time stop just before the dance ends.....you get my point.
Lord Karsus 03-13-08, 10:44 AM	Well, take the highest level maneuver from one of the Warblade's disciplines... -As BCM pointed out, I was thinking of the Duskblade, not the Warblade. The Warblade seems like it could stand toe-to-toe with a Wizard for a little bit as well, though, as you just demonstrated.
Stigger 03-14-08, 08:17 AM	Get in close, and your average rogue could probably wipe out a wizard with one little sneak attack... same with a fighter at melee range with a full attack action really. Swordsages > other melee types in my book though.
GothicDan 03-14-08, 03:13 PM	The "problem" with Wizards in D&D is that they are established as being more than combat monkeys. It's very often the "not directly combat" abilities of a Wizard's spells that make him beat the other classes so often at higher levels - Divinations, contingencies, "buffs," summoning, charms, illusions, environmental alterations, etc. No matter how good they make the other classes at COMBAT, it isn't going to mitigate these advantages. They would have to severely restrict the Wizard spell lists and probably ban new spell research altogether... And I guess then you'd basically have a Warlock/WoW spellcaster.
Alediran 03-14-08, 03:15 PM	Yep, that's exactly what I meant with WoWification. And I also agree with the rest of your post. WotC should make the other classes more useful out of combat, not inside of it because they all get to shine during combat. The thing that makes Spellcasters powerful aren't the spell per se (you can make it as weak as you want but they are still useful for different situations), it's their flexibility and wide range of options. Like I always say, the power to swing sharp pieces of metal is insignificant next to the power of altering reality in a fundamental level. Or resumed in the phrase Mind over Matter. Wizards are Mind, Fighters are Matter. Mind is Inmortal, Matter is not.
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 03:39 PM	And I also agree with the rest of your post. WotC should make the other classes more useful out of combat, not inside of it because they all get to shine during combat. -Those are have a reason being 'useful' out of combat are- Rogues, with all of their skills, Bards, with their skills and songs and whatever, Rangers, being woodsmen and all that. Barbarians and Fighters, for the most part, are dumb, and just good at bashing things.
Alediran 03-14-08, 03:45 PM	Yep, but those who usualy complain are the Fighter-players.
Diffan 03-14-08, 06:17 PM	Yep, but those who usualy complain are the Fighter-players. This is true, hence why I love the Tome of Battle so much. It gives a melee style character options outside of feats that make playing alot of fun. Using a maneuver, boost, or using a certain stance gives that kind of character tons of options besides "do I power attack or not?" In the end, you still swinging a large piece of steel, but at least now it's more fun. Also, i'm for having melee type characters who use the ToB develop their own maneuvers (much like a wizard researches his own spells) and stances to give them more of an original feel.
Zanan 03-14-08, 06:53 PM	- Barbarians and Fighters, for the most part, are dumb, and just good at bashing things. ... as in disarm, sunder, trip and the like? The point will always be that a fighter will never equal the damage output of a high level spell, like a destruction or disintegrate. Likewise, a low level wizards or cleric will never equal the damage output of a low level fighter. It was a group game. From what I hear from 4E, we may (as in MAY) have fighters with oh-so-many-more (???) actions or abilities, probably equalling a decent high level spell. But we will also have optimizers galore who will end trying to outscore each other, as was the case in 3E. Even if we don't, since many people will be allowed to do various stuff, they no longer will depend on one another and the group will either be a "collection of individual folk" or a well-trained gang that will give not just the monsters the creeps, but the DMs too. Once they all start to click, that is. Fine for a computer/video game, utter horror for a DM. Of course, I could be all wrong and people will love it. Some no doubt will, actually.
ywhtptgtfo 03-14-08, 07:08 PM	-Those are have a reason being 'useful' out of combat are- Rogues, with all of their skills, Bards, with their skills and songs and whatever, Rangers, being woodsmen and all that. Barbarians and Fighters, for the most part, are dumb, and just good at bashing things. There are some smart fighters too... just without magical amplitude.
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 08:46 PM	... as in disarm, sunder, trip and the like? -Yes. That constitutes 'bashing things'. There are some smart fighters too... just without magical amplitude. -And with...2(?)+INT Skill Points per level, they are not very 'talented'.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-14-08, 09:48 PM	Barbarians and Fighters, for the most part, are dumb, and just good at bashing things. *snort* :rofl:
ywhtptgtfo 03-14-08, 10:00 PM	-Yes. That constitutes 'bashing things'. -And with...2(?)+INT Skill Points per level, they are not very 'talented'. Feats?
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 10:55 PM	*snort* :rofl: -I'll be here all night, folks. :rimshot: Feats? -Which are, for Fighters, primarily related to bashing things.
Zanan 03-15-08, 06:59 AM	-Yes. That constitutes 'bashing things'. Okay, now tell me, what are e.g. wizards and sorcerers good at, apart from "blasting things"? You may come in with the skills here (at least with regard to the wizard), but that is a major fault of the system anyway and from what I have gathered so far, in 4E fighters will still only be good at bashing things (perhaps in a few more ways than before) and wizards at blasting things. Where's the improvement? Or rather ... where is it not WoWifying?
Diffan 03-15-08, 07:38 AM	Okay, now tell me, what are e.g. wizards and sorcerers good at, apart from "blasting things"? You may come in with the skills here (at least with regard to the wizard), but that is a major fault of the system anyway and from what I have gathered so far, in 4E fighters will still only be good at bashing things (perhaps in a few more ways than before) and wizards at blasting things. Where's the improvement? Or rather ... where is it not WoWifying? Ok, 2 things: 1st-In defense for wizards, they're not really the primary 'blaster' in D&D anymore. Rather they're extreamly fond of manipulating situations, boosting friends, debuffing foes, and battlefield strategy. The olden days of a Fireball being a main focus in a wizards repetoire are over. That doesn't mean they're extreamly powerful in their own right and ,as I said before, overpower some of the more 'simpler' classes. 2nd-In defense to WoW, they simply cannot re-create the multitude of spells found in D&D, nor could many of those spells effect 'in game' mechanics. WoW is first a computer game and more importantly, a game that involves LOTS of killing/attacking things. 90% of the missions involve killing a foe, killing specific foes to gain certain items, gaining an item protected by foes, and running errands. How exactly could say nondetection, arcane sight, tiny hut, contact other plane, etc... have any affect in a game like that? IMO it's a wonderful game because of it's simplistic control and addicting nature to gain that next level or beef up your profession to make a certain item to make more $$. The only way WoW could affect D&D is to cut the wizard's spells to say less than 20 and make more than half damage dealing spell.
Alediran 03-15-08, 10:00 AM	Diffan, for what I read in the last preview of Wizards every spell is going to make direct damage and a secondary tactical option. Yes, like you heard, no more non-lethal spells to scare players into thinking they are going to be captured or for pcs who want to capture enemies. Even the cleric will be much more like the WoW Priest, the druids will be more focused in Shapeshifting, like the WoW Druid. Wizards will also loose lots of spells that are going to be X class only, for example the more advanced Enchantements are going to be psionic powers. Wizards will mostly be evoker-like, since specialist Wizards are dead (that's why they blew Thay too, because Thay was specialist-focused).
Lord Karsus 03-15-08, 11:34 AM	Okay, now tell me, what are e.g. wizards and sorcerers good at, apart from "blasting things"? -Uh....All of the spells not remotely related to combat.
GothicDan 03-15-08, 12:54 PM	And the countless unprinted domestic spells Ed's talked about!
Zanan 03-15-08, 04:24 PM	-Uh....All of the spells not remotely related to combat. Ah, bad wording on my behalf! Substitute "blasting" with "casting". As I said, the fighter's new abilities will be aimed at, yes, "bashing" and rest assured, as we have about 1,200+ arcane spells in the Core/Complete books alone, never ever will he be able to come close to the spellcasting possibilities of a wizard (etc.). The average fighter is there to be a meatshield and basher. If a player wants to be something more than that basic D&D concept, he can always chose an e.g. hexblade or duskblade or swashbuckler. If they create some mumbo-jumbo classes who can do all with neat manoeuvres, tricks, abilities, healing surges (et al) and consequently creating a "sky's the limit" feel, the original D&D experience goes out of the window. But anyway, that's not exactly the topic of the thread nor something I'd like to spend any more life energy on.
GothicDan 03-15-08, 04:27 PM	"Life energy." Nice term, there. :) I don't understand the complaints, really. I prefer Wizards, yes, but I've played Paladins, Barbarians, and Fighters. And a lot of Clerics/Priests. There's more to the game than being the one who manages to slay Bel.
Quale_ 03-15-08, 04:28 PM	huh? wow players are nerds
MarkusTay63 03-15-08, 09:56 PM	Uh, not really. At least not on the scale that 'D&D Geeks' are. Now Trekkies, they are the coolest people on Earth... I'm talking 'Fonzie Cool'.... :ayyyy!:
Diffan 03-15-08, 09:56 PM	Diffan, for what I read in the last preview of Wizards every spell is going to make direct damage and a secondary tactical option. Yes, like you heard, no more non-lethal spells to scare players into thinking they are going to be captured or for pcs who want to capture enemies. Even the cleric will be much more like the WoW Priest, the druids will be more focused in Shapeshifting, like the WoW Druid. Wizards will also loose lots of spells that are going to be X class only, for example the more advanced Enchantements are going to be psionic powers. Wizards will mostly be evoker-like, since specialist Wizards are dead (that's why they blew Thay too, because Thay was specialist-focused). Citation please? No where from what I've read mentioned wizards being the 'blaster' type characters for 4e but that spells will go higher than lvl 9. huh? wow players are nerds lol, I seriously hope that was an attempt at a joke.
Alediran 03-16-08, 09:43 AM	Citation please? No where from what I've read mentioned wizards being the 'blaster' type characters for 4e but that spells will go higher than lvl 9. http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15327430&postcount=123 Both what you asked me and this next thing is on the same post (the poster played at DDXP). One of the things Wizards will be able to do at every level is Archmage's Mastery of Shape for any area spell they have. They gave an Archmage-level ability to newbie characters. That kills any tactical thinking, just blast the enemy with Fireball and don't worry about your party.
Quale_ 03-16-08, 12:13 PM	lol, I seriously hope that was an attempt at a joke. nah, I knew a dude who almost hasn't left his house for three years, cause of some idiotic, mindless hack and slash, and dnd we play two to four times a month, that's hardly comparable in terms of having no life
Khaelieth 03-16-08, 01:11 PM	nah, I knew a dude who almost hasn't left a house for three years, cause of some idiotic, mindless hack and slash, and dnd we play two to four times a month, that's hardly comparable in terms of having no life But that's not the majority of WoW players, though they certainly have their share of very sad people.
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 07:30 AM	Ah, bad wording on my behalf! Substitute "blasting" with "casting". -Then, yes Mages do the 'casting'. Fighters do the 'bashing'. I don't understand the complaints, really. I prefer Wizards, yes, but I've played Paladins, Barbarians, and Fighters. And a lot of Clerics/Priests. -I don't get it either. I've also played my fair share of character types (Never played a Barbarian, Bard, Druid or Ranger, or most of the non-Core Classes), and I can come to terms with the fact that certain classes are more effective in some situations than other situations. No class is, and no class should be great at everything. Wizards can cast mighty spells, but they can't wear armor, can barely swing a stick, and have very few Hit Points. Fighters have all of that, but can't cast mighty spells. Blah, blah, blah...
Bluenose 03-17-08, 09:25 AM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15327430&postcount=123 Both what you asked me and this next thing is on the same post (the poster played at DDXP). One of the things Wizards will be able to do at every level is Archmage's Mastery of Shape for any area spell they have. They gave an Archmage-level ability to newbie characters. That kills any tactical thinking, just blast the enemy with Fireball and don't worry about your party. No. A feat has already been published that makes it plain this isn't the case for all wizards at every level. Golden Wyvern Adept may be a strange name, but if it was totally superfluous it wouldn't exist. It also doesn't become available until 11th level, costs a feat, and is more limited than the archmage's Mastery of Shaping power.
Rauric 03-17-08, 12:04 PM	People play WOW for many reasons, just like D&D. Some are harcore who have to play everyday as much as possible and many more are casual and play a few times a week sometimes at an hour or two a clip. Much of the harcore aspects are being toned down since those players are in the minority. The people that cannot constantly also want a shot at fun quests, cool items, and they want to see "content". Many have not even seen most of the game because they cannot get into those places since they don't have the time. If the majority feel that they are not getting the most out of the product they will eventually quit the game. Toning down the 40 man raids to 10 and 25 was a good thing for casual fans, but the hardcore fans don't see it this way. More people can see content because it is easier to get a group of 10 together than it is a group of 40. Hardcore fans that hate PVE can always PVP all day long. Casual fans can log on and do some daily quests, pvp, or follow some storyline quests for fun. There is plenty to do for both groups still. I do believe that the game will change over time so that it favors the casual over hardcore players.
Alediran 03-17-08, 12:14 PM	But casual players also are the ones who invest less money and spend less time, therefore a game like WoW would only be viable for a few years, instead of the long years it has. Hardcore gamers are the ones who keep alive settings and games. We can still play emulated SNES games thanks to Hardcore SNES gamers and programers who created emulators for it.
MarkusTay63 03-17-08, 12:44 PM	The people that cannot constantly also want a shot at fun quests, cool items, and they want to see "content". Many have not even seen most of the game because they cannot get into those places since they don't have the time.This is why I stopped playing. I belonged to a very friendly, under-powered Guild. In fact, when I joined, I had the only 60. The idea was that eventually everyone would have 60's (the expansion hadn't come out yet) and we would be able to do the high-end stuff TOGETHER. So I hung in there for a long time and helped people do all their quests and ran low-lev instances with them just to help out... and one by one, as they approached 60, they would drop-out and seek out the high-lev guilds for the Raid Groups. I didn't like the 'Elitist' Guilds because they were VERY unfriendly and required all sorts of work to be a member, like post your weekly online schedule so they could set up 'runs', and you had to be available to do favors and provide 'services' to Guildies (which I always did anyway, but I hated the fact that it became 'mandatory'). I'm much more of a casual gamer.... My son on the other hand spent a whole year trying to get into the #2 Guild on the server, and was even required to submit a RESUME... for a godamn Video game!!! Thats when I quit... like you pointed out, unless someone has the time and inclination to spend all of his gaming hours 'working' the game, you really don't have any chance of seeing half of it. When a game starts to feel like a job, then there's a problem, IMHO. Don't get me wrong, WoW is a great game, but it has limited 'shelf life'. After my 5th '60' character, it all became rather repetitious - they only bother to add new content at the high end, so all the quests on the way up remained static. That is why I feel those kind of games can NEVER compete with D&D; because without a human being directing things, it becomes very mechanical. Now, on Topic - I wouldn't mind playing a WoWified version of D&D, because then I could get the best of both worlds. If I could have all that fun and eye-candy WITHOUT all the number-crunching and die-rolling, and STILL have a real, live person running the show, I think that would be a dream come true. Unfortunetly, I don't see the DDi tools coming anywhere near what WoW looks like, so if they are trying to attract THAT crowd, then they are smokin' some really good stuff over in Renton.
Khaelieth 03-17-08, 01:14 PM	This is why I stopped playing. I belonged to a very friendly, under-powered Guild. In fact, when I joined, I had the only 60. The idea was that eventually everyone would have 60's (the expansion hadn't come out yet) and we would be able to do the high-end stuff TOGETHER. So I hung in there for a long time and helped people do all their quests and ran low-lev instances with them just to help out... and one by one, as they approached 60, they would drop-out and seek out the high-lev guilds for the Raid Groups. I didn't like the 'Elitist' Guilds because they were VERY unfriendly and required all sorts of work to be a member, like post your weekly online schedule so they could set up 'runs', and you had to be available to do favors and provide 'services' to Guildies (which I always did anyway, but I hated the fact that it became 'mandatory'). I'm much more of a casual gamer.... My son on the other hand spent a whole year trying to get into the #2 Guild on the server, and was even required to submit a RESUME... for a godamn Video game!!! Thats when I quit... like you pointed out, unless someone has the time and inclination to spend all of his gaming hours 'working' the game, you really don't have any chance of seeing half of it. When a game starts to feel like a job, then there's a problem, IMHO. Don't get me wrong, WoW is a great game, but it has limited 'shelf life'. After my 5th '60' character, it all became rather repetitious - they only bother to add new content at the high end, so all the quests on the way up remained static. That is why I feel those kind of games can NEVER compete with D&D; because without a human being directing things, it becomes very mechanical. Now, on Topic - I wouldn't mind playing a WoWified version of D&D, because then I could get the best of both worlds. If I could have all that fun and eye-candy WITHOUT all the number-crunching and die-rolling, and STILL have a real, live person running the show, I think that would be a dream come true. Unfortunetly, I don't see the DDi tools coming anywhere near what WoW looks like, so if they are trying to attract THAT crowd, then they are smokin' some really good stuff over in Renton. That's why i play Ultima Online. RP's brill, if you've got eyes
Alediran 03-17-08, 01:29 PM	I used to play UO, still the best MMORPG, and the father of MMORPGS. You could play a beggar if you wanted.
MarkusTay63 03-17-08, 01:36 PM	Most WoW Newbs STILL do... :D
Khaelieth 03-17-08, 01:43 PM	I used to play UO, still the best MMORPG, and the father of MMORPGS. You could play a beggar if you wanted. Awesomeness! UO; the only game with begging, herding and camping as skills=D Hell, got a character without a single fighting skill! He can't kill a lowly orc!
Alediran 03-17-08, 01:57 PM	I once played on a homemade server with a lot of modifications for UO, it was there when Alediran was first born. He also became the first GM Magery/Eval Int/Meditation of the setting.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-17-08, 03:03 PM	My son on the other hand spent a whole year trying to get into the #2 Guild on the server, and was even required to submit a RESUME... for a godamn Video game!!! Thats when I quit... like you pointed out, unless someone has the time and inclination to spend all of his gaming hours 'working' the game, you really don't have any chance of seeing half of it. When a game starts to feel like a job, then there's a problem, IMHO. Indeed, the way you describe it makes it sound like the "game" turned into a job. And that's one reason out of several why I am wary of MMORPGs and not inclined to try them out. I play video games to relax, and preferably, by myself (not with thousands of strangers online). After all, I already have a full-time job!
MarkusTay63 03-17-08, 03:12 PM	Many Guilds require you to post your schedule when you plan to be on... and get upset when you don't 'keep' to your schedule. My guild was mostly over-seas (Japan, Korea, Aussie), so that forced me to be on overnight quite a bit so I could help them out. I was also required to post my skills - ALL of which I had maxed-out (amongst different characters), so I usually spent the first hour or two on just doing 'enchants' and what-not for others. Like I said - it became a chore to log on. :( I had to keep a few of my 'guys' hidden from my guild, just so I could play and have fun, and I felt like I was 'cheating' on them. Wierd...... :rolleyes:
Diffan 03-17-08, 05:20 PM	sheesh, those are guilds I'd never want to belong to. But then again, those are pretty extreme. Both of my higher level character are in guilds that are pretty laid back. The one does something called Kara-Run 5 days a week but you don't have to do it if you don't want to and everyone on there is pretty cool. Maybe it's just me, but i've never felt like WoW was a job or that I HAD to do something that was 'mandatory'. And also, your free to leave any guild at any time, so no one's keeping you there.
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 05:42 PM	-What is WoW, anyway? Is it just a computer game? Is it also a tabletop game? What's going on? And, yes, I know it stands for World of Warcraft. :cool:
Rauric 03-17-08, 05:47 PM	But casual players also are the ones who invest less money and spend less time, therefore a game like WoW would only be viable for a few years, instead of the long years it has. Hardcore gamers are the ones who keep alive settings and games. We can still play emulated SNES games thanks to Hardcore SNES gamers and programers who created emulators for it. A casual gamer may play less than a harcore player in WOW but it makes no difference how much they pay as long as they PAY every month. If there are more casual players and then hardcore and they all pay to play the game, the casual gamer is still who Blizzard really wishes to keep. It is why they dwarfed Everquest, and it is why WOW was used as a Jepardy question. It is huge and makes tons of money for Blizzard. I actually stop playing every few months, then start back up again. I know a few people that do this. I never cancel the account suring this time though. Anyway I never had enough time to devote to fulltime raiding. I was in a raid guild for 6 months, then got frustrated about how people treated each other over gear. It is a bit better now with the smaller raid instances. Eventually good gear will be attained in just 10 or 5 man instances I believe. WOW needed to use 40 man raids just to entice the EQ people and get them hooked. After two years they broke out the 25 and 10 man instances but by then Blizz did not need the hardcore people at all. maybe in the beginning but not after it was a definite success. WOW is a PC game that expands on the Real Time Strategy game that spawned it. Everthing else is a combination of Everquest and D&D. Warcraft does have a bit of some detailed history which Blizz retconned and changed to fit their Expansion. People complained alot. Then they kept playing.
Meldread 03-17-08, 06:04 PM	MarkusTay63- I know EXACTLY what that is like. I used to play EverQuest years ago and was actually a leader of a guild on a PvP Server. I loved the game and I loved the guild, but in order to keep things running smoothly was literally a full time job. From a guild leaders perspective there are constant problems both between guild members and individuals outside the guild who have problems with guild members. There are events that need to be organized. Everyone has to be kept happy. Then everyone needs a bit of your time. Of course, and then there is recruitment. Ugh. I cannot say how long I spent in Newbie Zones giving things away and helping people power level. I remember the days where I'd go with two hours of sleep because people "needed me" and I was stuck in the game and couldn't log off. I have never had an experience quite like it. I look favorably upon it as a good time and yet at the same time I cringe at the thought of doing it again. I had to quit the game after two years. It sucked up too much time and I became burned out. The level of energy required in order to do what was required of me was literally a full time job and when a game becomes work - even if you enjoy it - it also ceases to be fun.
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 06:08 PM	I remember the days where I'd go with two hours of sleep because people "needed me" and I was stuck in the game and couldn't log off. I have never had an experience quite like it. -Sounds like these boards. ;)
Rauric 03-17-08, 06:18 PM	-Sounds like these boards. ;) Aye, but after hours of playing you can get EPIC gear and lfying mounts and gold you can sell on internet sites for real money!!!
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 06:33 PM	Aye, but after hours of playing you can get EPIC gear and lfying mounts and gold you can sell on internet sites for real money!!! -You mean, we get don't Epic gear here? Where did all this stuff come from, then? :confused:
Draco Spirit 03-17-08, 07:02 PM	On a different but releted note.. There some neverwinter nights servers with nice rp stuff going off, were it less about that +5 sword and more about your character alliances and who and what you know :)
Meldread 03-17-08, 07:44 PM	Draco is right. I forgot to mention that. I spent a lot of time on NWN Persistent World Servers. It is a hybrid between a MMORPG and a Tabletop game. Some are fun... some are less than fun. It depends upon the community and the intent behind the servers. Even the best ones I played on, though, never really beat a more traditional D&D game.
MarkusTay63 03-17-08, 08:10 PM	My main was a Paladin, so I played it to the hilt... that meant good RPing from me meant helping EVERYONE who needed it. It was great for awhile, until people started to depend on my 'charity work'. I used to sing the Mighty Mouse theme whenever people cried for help on the common channel... "Here I come to save the day...." Still makes me smile whenever I think about all those grateful newbs. :) As an Alliance player, I would even help out Hordies on occasion (as long as they were non-hostile). I also played Horde on the same server, which made it VERY difficult to get into PvP - my two sons played Horde on that server, and I had 'guys' on their accounts as well. I did make a small fortune though, transfering 'rares' between the two factions. :D That Deviant Delight recipe bought me most of my epic gear. :dancin:
Rauric 03-17-08, 09:03 PM	I just play every other night now for an hour or two. By the time most of my RL friends make it on it is close to 10 or 11 and I have no time to do instances then. I just help buds do outdoor quests or do some BGs with my friends that are on. I just make sure it is not my 2nd "job" anymore. I still have fun and am about to get my epic flying form. It helps relieve stress also.
Meldread 03-18-08, 04:12 AM	Heh, all this reminds me of my time spent in EverQuest. I played on a PvP Teams server. The Teams were divided into: Darks (Dark Elves, Ogres and Trolls - the Evil Races), Elves (High Elves, Wood Elves and Half Elves), Humans (Barbarians, Humans and Erudites) and Shorties (Halflings, Dwarves and Gnomes). In the beginning all teams fought each other over everything. Then the Dark Team became the most powerful team, pretty much dominating all the other teams, and the other three teams joined together in the "Light Alliance" to fight them. However, I've never been one to go with the flow. I started out playing a Dark character, but once that team became the most popular team I created a new character to be a shortie - a Gnomish Necromancer. It started out as a bit of fun - a way to drive wedges into the "Light Alliance". I started by creating a reason for the shorties to hate everyone by creating an "alternative history" (read: propaganda) that detailed the creation of the world, the rightful place of Gnomes, Halflings and Dwarves in it and the tactics used to suppress them. My character was basically some type of twisted Nazi on crack, who talked endlessly about how the three major governments of the Shorties (Ak'anan for the Gnomes, Kaladim for the Dwarves and Rivervale for the Halflings) worked in secret with Elves and Humans to suppress the Shorties while they grew fat and powerful. My character called for the overthrow of them as well as the complete and total purge of everything over three foot tall. There were to be no slaves - just complete and total annihilation. My character (a low level at the time) would get other shortie newbies to join up on raids on the Elvish Newbie Zone called the Greater Faydark. It was kind of like some twisted form of terrorism - and it totally rocked. Everyone had a blast (well except those that died :P). Sometimes, the Elves would organize their own retribution groups and lead them into the Gnomish newbie zone and begin killing Gnomes in retribution. My character would then organize parties to fight off the Elves and become a type of hero of sorts - all the while preaching the evils of their race. I took screen shots of the things that happened and posted them on a popular web forum. People read the little stories I wrote and saw the screen shots, and pretty soon other people started creating gnomes, dwarves and halflings to join the fight. Eventually, out of that, a guild formed and my character ended up the leader of the guild. We were pretty much on our own. We didn't have allies on our own team (because everyone not with us was part of the Light Alliance). So we were somewhat of a smallish guild that went through periods of rapid growth and decline. In the beginning to level up we were forced to live in the Ocean of Tears. My character pretended that it was their secret base of operations, and plotted for ways to take the Continent of Faydwar. We eventually grew strong enough in levels to expand beyond that, though we always hit road blocks that held us back. We never really got to do any of the high level stuff, but we still had lots of fun. I organized raids into cities - pretty pointless from an XP and Loot prospective - but great fun. I wish I could have seen the faces of those who played Dark Elves when they saw 40 or so Gnomes, Halflings and Dwarves sneaking through Neriak (the Dark Elf city) and killing any PC's that we could. Those were some crazy epic battles - and my character was batshit crazy. I loved taking the fight to places that people thought they were safe. It would be the equivalent of sneaking into Menzoberranzan and slaughtering everyone and everything that moved. There was nothing quite like the response you get when you see a bunch of midgets jump out from the shadows and begin ripping you to shreds while chanting, "UP WITH THE SMALL, DOWN WITH THE TALL!" :rofl: Yeah, the little slogans we had were great. The guild was fun because we could only depend upon each other. Even other members of the short team treated us like the toxic plague because they knew if they helped us the Light Alliance would mark them as traitors and they'd pretty much never get the chance to kill any of the uber NPC's (like Dragons and Gods). It was EverQuest set on "Hell Mode" - it was a game that required you to group, but we could only group with other members of the guild. We disallowed grouping with non-shorts and kicked anyone from the guild who was caught doing it. So more often than not we were either forced to go completely solo or work together, and everyone in the guild forged amazing bonds with each other as a result. Part of what made us successful, though, is that we were rarely found alone. When you saw one of us lurking you knew there were three or four - perhaps even more - just over the hill, out of sight. When tall people checked to see who was in a zone and saw our guild tag - they fled. As a guild leader, though, I had to put up with a lot of stuff that wasn't really fun. For example, we didn't allow dishonorable or lame tactics. We disallowed corpse camping (not allowing someone you killed to get their corpse), bind point camping (killing someone again and again when they respawned after dying), training (dragging a bunch of mobs onto people or groups to kill them), or any of that other lame stuff. Of course, it happened to us a lot. So I had to deal with complaints from members of my guild who were screwed over like that. If one of us got killed when we were alone, and someone wouldn't let them get their corpse I had to organize a group to go and kill the corpse camper. If someone in my guild got trained they had to inform me of whoever it was and what guild they were part of so I could talk to officers of the guild or the leader and get that member removed. Things like that. Then I had to deal with complaints by other people about my own guild members, and then try and sort through what was just complaining and whining and if they actually committed some violation (and to prove it they generally needed screen shots). I removed lots of people from the guild for misbehavior - which always sucked. I spent a lot of my time in the newbie zones though, giving out what little I had to up-and-coming team members, helping them out as best I could and trying to convince them to join the guild. Meanwhile I had to organize events (like the raid on Neriak I mentioned above) and all sorts of other things. I can't say I'd do it again in a heartbeat, but I do look fondly on my experiences in EverQuest and all the really cool and fun people I got a chance to hang out and play with. I had to leave the game though, because like I said, I became burned out. The game itself became way too time consuming, became virtually no fun, and overall the expansions released for the game caused it to really hurt PvP. People I played with from back then have since tried to get me to go to WoW but I have always refused. It might look like a lot of fun, but to me it just seemed like more of the same - an endless and pointless level treadmill. For my online gaming purposes I spent most of my time playing on Neverwinter Nights persistent worlds. You generally get a blend of a MMORPG and a D&D Tabletop game, but even now I still favor the more traditional small group games. I like the fact that with Persistent Worlds you can normally find anyone to play with at any time, but they lack that personalized feel you get in traditional D&D Games. They lack the necessary flavor and sense of accomplishment you get. Your character is just one of many others in Neverwinter Nights PW's - although the world (depending on the server) is rarely static and you can impact it. It's just that you are still limited in what you can do and just how much you can accomplish. (There is a glass ceiling.) Although I met a lot of great and fantastic RPers on NWN PW's. For me, though, nothing will beat more traditional tabletop like gaming. Maybe one day when artificial intelligence can better simulate humans and basically take the place of the DM we can leave the dice behind. Until then, though, this is still the best method of role-playing out there that I have found.
MarkusTay63 03-19-08, 02:24 AM	I LOVE hunting Corpse Campers! :D Although I really enjoyed Kiting - what you call training - nothing says fun like bringing an end-game dragon into a newb zone. :dancin: We had three in the same room in Stormwind Castle at the same time... makes me get all misty thinking about it. :weep: I had my own guild - inherited it, really - but was too lazy to do anything with it. Eventually I made it a 'subsidiary' of the regular guild I joined (I kept my 'secret' characters in there). Geez, its been so long, I actually MISS farming.
Meldread 03-19-08, 04:16 AM	Yeah that happens. You look back, remember the good times and forget all the things you hate. :P I've taken a few trips back to EverQuest but almost as soon as I got into the world all the reasons that drove me from the game came crashing back. It's sad and almost like an addiction. You constantly want to "recapture" the fun and excitement you had in the beginning, are constantly filled with feelings of nostalgia, and yet at the same time you continuously fall short. You never recapture the feeling you used to have. At the same time, though, deep down you cling to some feeble sense of hope that you'll suddenly be filled with a sense of joy and wonder all over again. It's been something like five years since I logged into EverQuest, but I remember it all like yesterday! I remember my first time logging into EverQuest. A friend of mine convinced me to buy it and pay for the monthly subscription. I was dubious but he raved about it so I figured I'd give it a go so he'd shut up. The PvP Teams servers were coming out in a week and he promised we'd roll up new characters together. So I bought the game, the subscription, and when the first server came online we logged on together to play. What was the first thing I did after creating my character? I took three steps, fell into the water and not knowing how to swim I drowned. :rofl: So yeah, my character spent most of his newbie life running around completely naked on a PvP server. Of course, at the time there was item loot - you could kill someone and steal one item from their corpse. So I wasn't the only naked person running around. :P I ended up handing a book into the Priest of Discord, which turns your name red, and allows you to attack anyone else with a red name within 4 +/- in level. Of course, the downside is no one without a red name can heal or cast any beneficial spell upon you. :P ...but yeah, my friend eventually up and left the PvP Teams server. He couldn't stand the constant PvP, but I had fallen in love so I stayed and rolled up a bunch of new characters, got a feel of the game, learned how to PvP, and well - in the end I made tons of new friends and had countless hours of fun. :P So, even though it sucked up an insane amount of time, I think over all the enjoyment I gained from it was worth it.
Khaelieth 03-19-08, 06:28 AM	So yeah, my character spent most of his newbie life running around completely naked on a PvP server. Of course, at the time there was item loot - you could kill someone and steal one item from their corpse. So I wasn't the only naked person running around. :P in UO you could loot all the deads' items. And decapitate them. :cool:
Rauric 03-19-08, 08:31 AM	I LOVE hunting Corpse Campers! :D Although I really enjoyed Kiting - what you call training - nothing says fun like bringing an end-game dragon into a newb zone. :dancin: We had three in the same room in Stormwind Castle at the same time... makes me get all misty thinking about it. :weep: I had my own guild - inherited it, really - but was too lazy to do anything with it. Eventually I made it a 'subsidiary' of the regular guild I joined (I kept my 'secret' characters in there). Geez, its been so long, I actually MISS farming. Aye, farming is very cathartic at times. Even in a PVP Realm where you have to defend your spot.
Stigger 03-19-08, 10:17 AM	Interestingly, it was PvP that drove me from the one MMO I actually tried... too expensive, and I'm just not competetive enough to really get into it.
RanielK 03-19-08, 01:31 PM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15327430&postcount=123 Both what you asked me and this next thing is on the same post (the poster played at DDXP). One of the things Wizards will be able to do at every level is Archmage's Mastery of Shape for any area spell they have. They gave an Archmage-level ability to newbie characters. That kills any tactical thinking, just blast the enemy with Fireball and don't worry about your party. No, there are some that affect only your enemies (Sleep IIRC) and some that affect everyone regardless (Radiant Burst -> 1st level fireball so to speak, and Acid Arrow). It is in the description for Target as All Enemies or All Adjacent Creatures, again IIRC. I do recall the wording of at least two of the abilities clearly implied to me (and there is where the trouble starts :D ) was that the one power would just burst out and strike everything and the other would affect your enemies.
Alediran 03-19-08, 01:49 PM	No, there are some that affect only your enemies (Sleep IIRC) and some that affect everyone regardless (Radiant Burst -> 1st level fireball so to speak, and Acid Arrow). It is in the description for Target as All Enemies or All Adjacent Creatures, again IIRC. I do recall the wording of at least two of the abilities clearly implied to me (and there is where the trouble starts :D ) was that the one power would just burst out and strike everything and the other would affect your enemies. Way to go for simplified mechanics...
MarkusTay63 03-20-08, 12:37 AM	Interestingly, it was PvP that drove me from the one MMO I actually tried... too expensive, and I'm just not competetive enough to really get into it.I never really got into that aspect of it either. I tried a PvP server once, after my son joined one and didn't want to come back to 'ours'. I HATED it. :( I make most of money by playing the auction-house game, transferring stuff between factions (only posible with more then one account.) You know you have a problem when you are running one on your Computer, and you have your laptop right next to it running a second account. :rolleyes: My son went over to the 'dark side', and never looked back. He became fairly well known - he's a natural born killer. :D I was so much more about the skills and economics of the game, and nobody made a bowl of Hot Clam Scorcho quite like me. :D
Stigger 03-20-08, 02:17 AM	Didn't much care for TS stuff either actually... solo play was more my style. Was playing Anarchy Online for quite a while, but after level 200 (I stopped at 204 I think it was), soloing was just getting more and more out of the question, so I just said screw it and cancelled the account.