Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alediran 01-15-08, 09:39 AM	Here we'll put our imagination to work and create a really good divergent cannonical Toril. We should start first with the resolution of the newest novels so they can be adjusted to what we want, a FR where no god was killed by the need of trimming down the pantheon, nor Spellplague ocurred. The Lady Penitent The Twilight War Beeing Handled by OrderofUhlrik The Gossamer Plains The Near destruction of Mystra (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14857454&postcount=14) Completed by Storm_Silverhand Possible alternatives
Storm_Silverhand 01-16-08, 05:48 PM	Heya, Here we'll put our imagination to work and create a really good divergent cannonical Toril. We should start first with the resolution of the newest novels so they can be adjusted to what we want, a FR where no god was killed by the need of trimming down the pantheon, nor Spellplague ocurred. The Lady Penitent The Twilight War The Gossamer Plains The Merge of the Weaves Possible alternatives The only thing I am offering to do is brief write ups of some alternative futures, and even then I wouldn't rely on me. ;) I could look at the merging of the weaves and perhaps offer some advice or ideas. As far as I can see, we have a little while to wait until we see the resolution of some of those novel series - the final novel in the Lady Penitent series, Ascendancy of the Last, is not due out until June for example, which would cause some problems trying to offer alternate resolutions.
Alediran 01-16-08, 07:51 PM	That's the beauty of alternative resolutions, we don't need to ascribe our ideas to cannon FR.
Storm_Silverhand 01-17-08, 01:55 AM	Heya, That's the beauty of alternative resolutions, we don't need to ascribe our ideas to cannon FR. True. :) What kind of format are you looking for for the write ups? How much detail do you want? (The "Mystra avoiding murder with help from Eilistraee" plot bunny is bouncing around in my brain, again, and I thought I might contribute it to the project. :D)
Alediran 01-17-08, 06:06 AM	Go for it, it's more, write me at least 2 version, so we can choose between us what is the best one and will be made "cannon", the other will still be used as a possible alternative explanation. We'll do something like that for every possible article. For example I pretend to make the story of my campaign "cannon", and I know there will be no problem since it doesn't messes with established lore, it only adds one Arms-Major, one Spell-Major, a priestess of Eilistraee, a Guardian of the Weave, a powerfull Druid from the High Forest and a new leader for the N'Vhaelar to Myth Drannor.
Stigger 01-17-08, 07:42 AM	So, we thinking of using 3.5e or 4e rules? At the moment, I'm not sure how much I could contribute, as I'm fairly busy converting OWoD over to SW:Saga edition, as I can see a lot of benefits in it for me with its easier, streamlined mechanics. My group is pretty light on the use of mechanics as it is, so not many of them care about the simplified abstractions that Saga puts forth. A bit of a pain in the arse after some of the D&D to OWoD conversion I was doing, but it makes my life a bit easier at the table, so its worth it to me. Can't say I can offer much where novels are concerned though, as I don't read many of them, and none of them up on that list up there. And personally, I'd prefer to entirely ignore the existance of the Shadow Weave altogether if given the option... :D
Alediran 01-17-08, 08:00 AM	There is no need for mechanical convertions yet. We'll work with that after the 4ed rules are out. For example recreate Mystra for 4ed, if there are differences for clerics of different gods well make her "domains" list. If you preffer to deal with past and hard lore there is the other thread for that, I already have somebody doing Sembia.
Alediran 01-17-08, 09:48 AM	Zan, if you like it, please add this idea I just had. After Cyric is stoped by whatever means you deem right, AO appears in front of him, strips him of godhood for threatening the balance and sends him packing to Zhentil Keep right in front of Fzoul (machiavellican things happen to Cyric after that in my mind, I'm so evil :cool: ). With that not only we get rid of the first problem, but also we get rid of an annoying i****. We'll see who gets Cyrics portfolios (probably give Strife back to Bane, Intrigue to Mask, Illusion to a restored Leira) Probably Leira returns thanks to a part of her, hidden by Mask, who restores her with the Divine essence he charged Erevis to stole.
Rasputen_Bel_Kuhr 01-17-08, 12:39 PM	Hi, here's an idea; Leira is alive thanks to the implied brilliant illusion she pulled off with mask's help so when Cyric thought he killed leira he was really killing an illusion and subsequently the victim of an illusiion which gave the appearance of him getting power from the deception, illusion, lies, portfolios whereas really he wasn't and that which he pulled off with those portfolios was leira doings to prolong the success of the illusion. Eventually Cyric, having annoyed (polite terminology) practically everyone, gets ganged up on and attacked so leira withdraws the partial powers of her portfolios she was granting him. Thus Intrigue is returned to Mask and ?Strife to Bane?. Cyric either survives or is reincarnated as the God of Insanity, who is insane, Lesser power. Leira - Intermediate or lesser. Mask - Intermediate? This is a rather raw idea still being developed. Some I've posted elsewhere. Tyr leaves the realms on another Procession of Justice and Leaves Torm in charge of Justice; Torm gives Duty to Helm to better take care of Justice; Helm's current portfolios are largely absorbed into Duty. Mystra through the machinations of Shar is semi-destroyed but is saved by ?someone/thing? and the most powerful magical elemental (dead Mystra/Mystryl) and Karsus and all who ever held magic merge into a new intermediate deity of magic with all humanity of the human aspects (Midnight, Karsus) being destroyed). Feel free to refine these ideas.
Stryfe 01-17-08, 04:08 PM	No Spell Plague..."Whole Magic" comes back through the process of Shar and Mystra fighting each other and posibly something happening with that chunk of Whole Magic the Shades have. Ao tells Mystra she has the Weave, Shar has the Shadow Weave so they both have to deal with it. Selune takes a more active part in magic to a degree or some such since Mystra was pretty much created as her ally back in the beginning anyways. This also allows "original" magic to come back...epic spells are just "higher level spells" to some degree, elven high magic is rekickstarted to as it was. The "epic" name can be kept for mechanics reasons and at what levels allowed. I can see them gettin rid of the male gods in the Drow pantheon but should keep one around that's NOT allied to either Lloth or Eilistraee for further options down the road. I can see Kiransalee getting killed in all the backlash by mistake or some such. Cyric, Cyric, Cyric...everyone has problems with him but I never did. But, since Bane is back, Cyric could use a demotion of some sort and be made to be a servant of Bane. Wouldn't that be interesting ;) I'll even go so far as to say these next things in favor of $ed...IF they would just LEAVE things alone for the most part: 1) If the Eladrin idea is so "popular", then widen the differences in the elves we have now...DON'T just rewrite their entire history. Myth Drannor is back, Prince Amuril is off somewhere making another Evermeet...the changes they want to do can EASILY be made within the scope of how things are now. 2) Bring the Dragonkin in....Saurials are already in the Realms...just use them instead. And it's about time they come out of the Hidden Vale and start participating in things anyways. 3) Tieflings could be made as some Imaskar slave race that revolted at the same time as the Imaskar are returning or something along that line. 4) Want to get rid of some Chosen...I could go along with a couple. Dove isn't THAT prominant a figure, she could go. Khelben is already gone...Laeral to soon follow by CHOICE (she doesn't want to live without her true love or some such and Corellon allows her to go to Arvandor for a while or something). Quile could become a straight Chosen of Eilistraee instead of a 1/2 and 1/2. Sylune finally being brought to rest would be nice, dignified touch. So, that's 4 of the Seven gone, 5 of the 9 gone. Seems good to me. El and Alassra can start concentrating on the Shades and Imaskari so they can be "out of the picture" most of the time, until something "drastic" happens with those 2 races...or something TOTALLY Realms shaking happens. 5) People are going to scream but...warforged can be brought in too, but NOT as a PHB character class. What's his face from the Rogue Dragon series was 1/2 iron golem...I can see a few small steps into bringing the warforged over to FR, slowly of course. It's NOT impossible for all the "bad" things they want to happen to actually happen over the 100 year jump but they don't HAVE to mutilate the existing Realms as bad as they're going to. The aboleths can attack Waterdeep, Thay can erupt, Unther and that region can go through a war and end however...Ao could streamline his "childrens" portfolios a bit, maybe get rid of a HANDFUL of gods, but no need to completely wipe the pantheon so it falls in line with other core settings (re: Grayhawk) where they only had 10 or so gods to begin with. We DON'T need fighters who have spell-likes, and wizards are fine as they are. I've played fighters and I'm most appreciative that the mage killed most of those 100 trolls with Horrid Wilting so I wouldn't have to wade into all of them :) And aren't wizards SUPPOSE to be the most powerful things around? Wasn't Gandalf a wizard? And couldn't he lay waste to a company of orcs while the fighters had to slog it through, one orc or troll at a time? And with clerics having the spontaneous healing thing now, I'm still not sure why people think clerics are only "healing machines". My comments above about Whole Magic could even bring back the ability for ALL classes to use magic items now...so fighters can get a Wand of Healing and use it on themselves and be able to read certain scrolls, like all classes use to be able to.
Storm_Silverhand 01-17-08, 05:29 PM	Heya, Zan, if you like it, please add this idea I just had. After Cyric is stoped by whatever means you deem right, AO appears in front of him, strips him of godhood for threatening the balance and sends him packing to Zhentil Keep right in front of Fzoul (machiavellican things happen to Cyric after that in my mind, I'm so evil :cool: ). With that not only we get rid of the first problem, but also we get rid of an annoying i****. He might be annoying, but he has his place. I'd rather not arbitrarily kill of deities just because I don't like them - unlike some people I could name and who shall remain nameless. *glares at the WotC designers* (I personally prefer Cyric to Bhaal and Myrkul... I've never understood why people were so attached to them.) I think he shall suffer a setback, but won't be destroyed... At the very least he's going to lose an avatar. We'll see who gets Cyrics portfolios (probably give Strife back to Bane, Intrigue to Mask, Illusion to a restored Leira) Probably Leira returns thanks to a part of her, hidden by Mask, who restores her with the Divine essence he charged Erevis to stole. Maybe Leira will be restored (by Ao) and Cyric will lose Illusion since it's obvious he can't work with Mystra. Oh, and another question... Where do you want us to post this? Here? I know you intend to put it up on your site eventually... (I might also put mine up on my LiveJournal as well, I think...)
Alediran 01-17-08, 05:40 PM	For the moment we will use this thread. As soon as I can have a board system well work there. It wont be that pretty at the begining but I want to give it the same functionality of these boards.
Storm_Silverhand 01-17-08, 06:19 PM	Heya, For the moment we will use this thread. As soon as I can have a board system well work there. It wont be that pretty at the begining but I want to give it the same functionality of these boards. Okay. :) What I've got follows in the next post...
Storm_Silverhand 01-17-08, 06:44 PM	Magic and Moonlight triumph over Shadows by Storm_Silverhand (aka Zandilar) (The text in the spoiler blocks is now removed and posted at my LiveJournal (http://zandilar.livejournal.com)) Assumptions Eilistraee's and Lolth's Sava game to the death actually ends in a stalemate (how that's possible is left to people's imaginations, perhaps some of Eilistraee's allies offer some covert assistance, much to Lolth's frustration, but no matter how it happens, neither goddess dies.) The line out of Demihuman Deities "Eilistraee is unusally close with the human goddess, Mystra; Qilue Veladorn, seventh of the Seven Sisters, serves both goddesses as Chosen of Mystra and as Chosen of Eilistraee." has more significance. This means that Eilistraee and Mystra are lovers, however the plot still works if they're just close friends. Magic and Moonlight removed and posted to my LiveJournal (http://zandilar.livejournal.com) (it's the first entry). Plot Mystra senses something terrible is about to happen, as do many other deities. It would be almost impossible for Cyric and Shar to mask the fall out of the death of the Weave. Since Mystra doesn't know what exactly is going to happen (the details are definitely masked from her and others who might have a chance to know, since Shar and Cyric combined probably have enough power to do that), she begins to make preparations for her demise. One of the things she does is send avatars to visit her closest allies and bid them farewell, just in case she can't prevent the catastrophe. The last deity she sees is Eilistraee. While the two goddesses are talking, Mystra tells the Drow goddess that she doesn't much like the mask she wears, nor the recent changes to her. As she does so, an idea forms, perhaps there is a way Mystra can avoid her fate. Without asking permission, and because she's powerful enough to do it, she reaches out and plucks the mask from Eilistraee's face. The mask, of course, is far more significant than just a piece of cloth, it is all that remains of Vhaeraun. Eilistraee is weakened by this, and accuses Mystra of betraying her, but Mystra quickly explains that she might use Vhaeraun's essence to save her life, though the mask will be consumed in the process. Realizing that she's weakened her lover (or friend), Mystra gives her the starburst amulet she always wears, imbued with some of her essence... With this, Mystra entrusts the continuation of magic and the Weave to Eilistraee, should she ultimately perish. After this, they bid each other farewell and Mystra goes off to meet her fate. A Last Goodbye Removed and will be posted to my LiveJournal (http://zandilar.livejournal.com) today. Vhaeraun's essence allows Mystra to conceal herself from Cyric when he comes calling (an area of her own domain that she can't sense is really a big give away that somethings up). Knowing exactly what Cyric's game is, Mystra destroys his avatar without him ever being aware that she's there... thus thwarting Shar's and Cyric's plot - rather anticlimactically, but if Mystra knows what Cyric is about, and is warned, she's more than capable of destroying an avatar (of course, if actual deities can enter other deities domains, then assume that the fight is much closer, but since Mystra had just enough warning, she's able to wound him enough to drive him off - if any god wants to cling to their life, it is Cyric). Mystra survives. Aftermath Since Ao had forbidden Deicides, he comes down fairly hard on Cyric, while still taking into account that Cyric was acting within the bounds of his portfolio. Because it's fairly obvious that Cyric cannot work with Mystra, he is stripped of the Illusions portfolio and it is given to Mystra to do with as she will. Mystra gives the Illusion portfolio to Eilistraee to make up for taking the essence of Vhaeraun from her. Cyric fumes and plots against Mystra, Eilistraee (whom he believes now has something that belongs rightfully to him), Shar (whom he believes betrayed him), and Ao (though he knows his plotting against the Overgod may never bear fruit). Alternatives: Mystra could ask Ao to restore Liera, which he would do. Liera becomes the demigoddess of Illusion. Mystra raises someone new up to the role of demi-deity of Illusion, probably one of her Chosen. Ao might also strip Cyric of Intrigue, which is then returned to Mask. If this is the case, then Cyric's standing is most likely downgraded to Intermediate deity of Murder, lies, and deception. If Cyric is still involved in the death of Helm plotline from The Grand History of the Realms, then he may still be imprisoned for a thousand years for his manipulations as well as attemtped assassination of Mystra. If Eilistraee doesn't gain the portfolio of Illusion, but Liera returns or a new deity is raised to the post, they will probably have more than just Illusions for their portfolio. Ideas for portfolios include colour, magical artwork, enchantment/charm, obfuscation, deception, shadows, and mist. The list is by no means complete, DMs should feel free to think up their own.
OrderofUhlrik 01-19-08, 12:42 AM	I'll try my hand at the Twilight War if you'll give me a day to do it.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 02:31 AM	-Zanz, I wouldn't post the more...thought prevoking stuff here. Anything posted on the WotC boards becomes their intellectual property, and while all characters, places, etc. already belong to them...Know what I mean? That's why I stopped posting things written for Elves of Faerūn on the thread. A fellow poster (Whryn- hope I spelled that correctly) ran into some trouble when some of...her(?) own original stuff was posted on these boards, and it became WotC intellectual property.
Zanan 01-19-08, 04:55 AM	Magic and Moonlight triumph over Shadows by Storm_Silverhand (aka Zandilar) (The text in the spoiler blocks is fan fiction fluff, while the author doesn't own the characters portrayed, she does claim rights over the text - remember, plagiarizing is stealing!) Assumptions Eilistraee's and Lolth's Sava game to the death actually ends in a stalemate (how that's possible is left to people's imaginations, perhaps some of Eilistraee's allies offer some covert assistance, much to Lolth's frustration, but no matter how it happens, neither goddess dies.)... Call it Spellplague. As it looks, it ravages throughout Realmspace, including the Planes and it could well be that it destroys the highly magical sava board as well, closing the playing field connection along the way.
Hopeless 01-19-08, 07:40 AM	My point of view is that given Cyric's and Shar's plans the first stage HAS to be to eliminate Helm, this is covered by releasing rumours that he was slain in a absurd feud over the hand of Tymora. In truth Helm realised Tyr was being controlled and dies freeing the god from that control but Tyr realising what has really been going on seeks and obtains revenge for the deed but leaves Faerun after asking Ao's permission. Torm receives his portfolio as well as that of Helm in safekeeping since he was slain in the course of his duties but hasn't returned for reasons yet unrevealed. The mortal folk still believe the lies about Tyr and Torm's followers even thought they know otherwise decide to keep up the pretense as they've become more power hungry something all of the various faiths have become following Mystra's death. Mystra was slain whilst Tyr was recovering from his duel with Helm, Shar thought killing Mystra in her own plane would allow her to assume Mystra's powers however as Mystra was a siphoned off portion of Selune so was a portion of Shar siphoned off becoming the Raven Queen who assumed command of the shades whom have disappeared from Faerun becoming her Shadar-kai. The destruction of dweomerheart merely caused the weave to "jump tracks" seemingly removing both the weave and the shadow weave from Faerun for a time as it slowly began to settle once more into a form that would comprise the magic from 4e. Thay's dependence on magic caused the destruction of its nation turning it into something similar to Izmer and Antioch (the thieves city), the dragonborn were created when the arcane spellcasters who were of draconic bloodline transformed into their new state however many died or were left insane by the alteration. Elves became Eladrin instead, whilst those of abyssal or infernal bloodline became tieflings. Years later the world has slowly recovered from the Spellplague but Netheril has become the major world power the result of researching the secrets of the new magic came sooner to them than Myth Drannor courtesy of having more access to ancient Netherese knowledge however for all their massive gain in power there still remained heroes and although many fell unnoted in battle their sacrifice wasn't in vain as 94 years after Mystra's death Netheril hasn't conquered Faerun and hope flourishes once more. Personally I thought having Alphatia turn up in Faerun as a result of dweomerheart's destruction made more sense since then it would explain why Netheril hasn't conquered Faerun since they were apparently in essence unaffected by the spell plague but having its leadership disappear would leave them in disarray long enough to explain why they didn't take advantage not that, that will ever be explained... Take care and all the best!
Alediran 01-19-08, 08:38 AM	I'll try my hand at the Twilight War if you'll give me a day to do it. It's yours.
Storm_Silverhand 01-19-08, 06:14 PM	Heya, -Zanz, I wouldn't post the more...thought prevoking stuff here. Anything posted on the WotC boards becomes their intellectual property, and while all characters, places, etc. already belong to them...Know what I mean? That's why I stopped posting things written for Elves of Faerūn on the thread. A fellow poster (Whryn- hope I spelled that correctly) ran into some trouble when some of...her(?) own original stuff was posted on these boards, and it became WotC intellectual property. You mean the story portions in the spoiler blocks? Or just the whole thing in general? IN any event, I've removed the fan fiction portions and they're now posted to Goddess Musing (http://zandilar.livejournal.com), my livejournal.
Lord Karsus 01-20-08, 03:37 AM	You mean the story portions in the spoiler blocks? -Yeah, the stuff in the SBLOCKs.
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 12:49 PM	-Something that me and Heretic were talking about were the Dragonborn. We were musing that, as the Thayans like to experiment with creatures (Blooded Orcs, Ju Ju Zombies, etc.), perhaps the Dragonborn are the result of Thayan experimentation with Humans, Dragons, Half-Dragons, Dragon Kin, and so on, in a Demiplane. Come the Spellplague, or if we don't have a spellplague, due to some other unforseen consequence, the Demiplane where the Dragonborn were being bred and "stored" was shunted to the Material Plane, where Unther is.
Alediran 01-27-08, 12:58 PM	Sounds way better than WotC version.
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 02:59 PM	-That they just *pop* appeared? That's the only part that needs to be smoothed out, in this version. The hows/whys as to how the Demiplane dissolved, and shunted everything onto the Material Plane. No Spellplague means there has to be a different answer.
Storm_Silverhand 01-28-08, 05:56 AM	Heya, Well I suppose the first thing we should establish is exactly what future events are canon and what are not. Unless we're all just proposing possible futures, then it really only matters to each individual contributor.
Alediran 01-28-08, 06:31 AM	Then I'll create a thread in my boards to discuss that. http://www.forgottenrealmsvault.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11
Lord Karsus 01-28-08, 09:58 AM	Well I suppose the first thing we should establish is exactly what future events are canon and what are not. -Everything up to 1374 DR. -Then, things are up in the air. But, people need to stat preposing things before we can start deciding upon them!
Suin Bahhar 01-28-08, 02:25 PM	What'll happen to Evermeets Throne? Will Amluriel stay and prolong her suffering for the people? Will Lamruil ever stop chasing wenches and rule over the people?
Lord Karsus 01-28-08, 02:27 PM	Will Amluriel stay and prolong her suffering for the people? -As long as I am still breathing, of course! :) Will Lamruil ever stop chasing wenches and rule over the people? -Much has been done with Prince Lamruil. I suggest reading the essay in Elves of Faerūn, concerning the realm of Ausriel.
Suin Bahhar 01-28-08, 02:39 PM	Aye indeed. Cunningham has a lot of novels on my to read list... Her characters are so fun to read about. First, make time for Cale though... The cosmological changes could be tied to Sigil or the World Serpent Inn. Somesort of epic disaster involving the world serpent... Better yet, convert the rules of the old planes to 4e.
Lord Karsus 01-28-08, 03:09 PM	Better yet, convert the rules of the old planes to 4e. -That's what I always did with 3e, though, I mean, information really doesn't need to be transcripted from edition to edition.
MarkusTay63 01-29-08, 03:17 PM	Sounds way better than WotC version.I have an even simpler (and more justifiable then WotC's version) solution - They are Khaasta, plain and simple. :D Gray and I discussed a little bit of that over in the Cosmology (order of the Planes) thread. He postulated about a primordial war between the Dragonkin (Kobolds and Urd) gods, and the Dragon Pantheon, which resulted in the Dragon-gods creating 'shock troops' for the war - The Khaasta. Rather then retype everything, I'll just re-post it here - Enter the Khaasta! :dancin: Perhaps, during some primordial war, maybe even one between Kurtulmak and the Dragon gods, when both sides sought allies, The Dragon Gods created the Khaasta to serve them against the endless armies of Goblinoids that Kurtulmak brought into Toril's sphere. However, the Goblin Gods soon fought with Kutulmak, and amongst themselves, about who will rule in the new order of things once they won, an they alliance quickly fell apart. Not knowing what to do with the dragonborn Soldiers they held ready in a demi-plane, they gave them to Demogorgon as payment for his aid in the war (which never wound up happening). The deal was that Demogorgon and his Demons would fight on the side of Dragons, and the Khaasta were given to him to 'hold onto' in the eventually that the war would indeed break out. It never did, and eventually he grew tired of his legions of Dragonborn, and released them from servitude (this explains why demogorgon had a moment of 'niceness' - the Khaastas were never really his to begin with, and he got tired of 'baby-sitting' them). Now, as per Serpent Kingdoms, we know that Khaastas have been slowly entering the Realms, in search of the now-defunct Sarrukh Empires. By the time of the new 4e campaign date, perhaps many of these creatures have given up the search, and have taken up the life of adventurers and mercenaries? So, we needn't add anything to the Realms in 4e, just change a little bit of the back-story. After all, the Khaastas probably thought Demogorgon created them, after so many thousands of years. Ergo the Khaasta have a small communtiy near the great salt Lake (canon), and dozens of bands have 'gone mercenary' and wander the Realms. Perhaps one fairly large group has 'taken over' Unther. If you use that, a DM can play it any way he wants, and use the 4e core Dragonborn PC race as FR's Khaasta. You could say they have control of only a small piece of Unther, the whole of Unther, or even that they are helping the Untherites throw-off Mulhorandi Opression, and that they are in charge of a secret 'underground' of freedom-fighters. That what I plan to do in my 3e/4e amalgam - no new races for me; I'll just adapt one thats already there. ;)
Alediran 01-29-08, 09:02 PM	Post that on the general discusion for the project in the vault's boards.