Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alediran 01-12-08, 09:25 AM	After seeing the last article about the 4ed FR I decided (like so many other) that 4ed isn't what I want. And since I'm creating a new website for the now Classic Realms I wanted also to start the information recollection right now. The idea is to take everything until 1374 DR (except things that were created for the transition, like the Return of the Archwizards and the Twilight War, I don't want anything that has even the remote smell of 4ed or WoTC Shar fanaticism.) and make a huge database of lore. The first table of contents is this: History section: - A timeline like GHoTR (I propose using it, taking out lore that doesn't fullfils what I said above) with links to a detailed section about the events. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14835083 Present Time: - Diverging ideas for adapting 4ed rules to your Classic Realms game and our own cannon realms. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14835106 I consider the Elven Netbook part of this compilation so there is no need to do that work again. EDIT: and the other regional project too, like the one of Kara-tur. Anybody offers to the project? P.D: my first thread, that's so weird.
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 05:11 PM	The idea is to take everything until 1374 DR (except things that were created for the transition, like the Return of the Archwizards and the Twilight War, I don't want anything that has even the remote smell of 4ed or WoTC Shar fanaticism.) and make a huge database of lore. -I'd argue against that. Neither the Return of the Archwizard trilogy, or the Twilight War trilogy seem like transition points for 4e to me. They seem like natural progression, based on previous lore. The City of Shade needed to come back eventually, and the Twilight War is based on blows between Mask and Shar, and the progression of a plot Shar has had in development for many a year- I believe the first reference to all of it was in the novel Lady of Darkness (or whatever it was called) a few years ago. P.D: my first thread, that's so weird. -All this time, and you're first thread? That is weird. ;)
Alediran 01-12-08, 06:56 PM	-I'd argue against that. Neither the Return of the Archwizard trilogy, or the Twilight War trilogy seem like transition points for 4e to me. They seem like natural progression, based on previous lore. The City of Shade needed to come back eventually, and the Twilight War is based on blows between Mask and Shar, and the progression of a plot Shar has had in development for many a year- I believe the first reference to all of it was in the novel Lady of Darkness (or whatever it was called) a few years ago. Not the events per se, but the consecuences of those events. I preffered if Shade enclave was still half floating in the desert, trying to restore themselves. Or the Twilight War beeing a victory to Mask instead of Shar. Change those little bits that gave 4th edition FR, for example (the most important): Mystra survived the attack and left Cyric an almost lifeless husk, taking the Illusions portfolio from him. After that Mystra used Cyric's essence to absorb the Shadow Weave (since Cyric surely uses the SW) and take back control over it. This process completely weakened Cyric, who lost after that many portfolios, Intrigue by Mask, who was laughing besides Mystra, who thanked Mask for helping her.
OrderofUhlrik 01-12-08, 09:35 PM	To be entirely honest the Twilight War was not truly a conflict between Mask and Shar. Shar is seemingly working her own plan that happens to include one of Mask's former chosen. But Mask is, at least, outwardly just using these events to further his own ends. It is still unclear what those ends are and to what extend the god of thieves will play his hand. The last book in the trilogy truly holds all of the answers as far as that goes. The recent article implies that Shar scores a victory in Sembia, but that doesn't mean Mask can't either. That could be a shrewd outcome that would be pleasant for me to read about. But knowing WoTC Mask will get destroyed, along with any chance of them seeing a dime of my money in 4e. Otherwise I agree with Karsus that the Twilight War and the Return of Netheril are interesting plots, and I wholeheartedly support the idea of an alliance between Corymr and at least Myth Drannor, because against the might of Shade Enclave and a puppet Sembia that just makes logical sense. My major point is that several of the transitional novels and lore you say stink with 4e are actually rife with potential adventure that doesn't necissarily have a damned thing to do with 4e. Richard Lee Byers novels in Thay provide possibilities for decades of civil war that could incredibly interesting to adventure about. The rise of Netheril gives us a shadowy evil empire to undermine in adventures and so on. However, this is not to say I support 4e. I dislike most of the mechanics of the new edition and many of the lore thematics, including jumping a century. I do enjoy some of the political changes, but those could have happened in a decade given magic both divine and arcane. But, just so you don't feel as if all I'm going to do is attack your post, I'd be glad to help you out as I own the vast majority of all of the Realms based novels published since 2000. I also have most of the sourcebook material for 2e Realms and the FRCS for 3e. Just my $.02
Alediran 01-12-08, 11:37 PM	Don't worry, I don't feel attacked. And as I said, most of those books are ok. We just need to take out the result that link the realms to 4ed. The Twilight War should end as another defeat for Shar instead of a victory, to name an example.
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 01:32 AM	-Pick a 'cut-off date' to begin working with, meaning a point where history will be frozen, ignoring whatever happens afterwards. -Then, things can be...neorecontinuitized. :teach:
johnkretzer 01-13-08, 06:32 AM	Don't worry, I don't feel attacked. And as I said, most of those books are ok. We just need to take out the result that link the realms to 4ed. The Twilight War should end as another defeat for Shar instead of a victory, to name an example. Actualy I think we should leave the Twilight War open...and not drive to a end. Sembia a country of canny merchants...they shouldn't be that easy to be taken over in the way I think the Shades are trying.(tough if somebody wants to give me a summary of their plan I don't read the novels anymore). In other words lets do with this what WotC is failing to do and continue the Realms to be a world for RPGs not novels.
msatran 01-13-08, 06:38 AM	My advice is this. Pick 1382. Everything before that is perfectly reasonable. There's no reason why you can't have Obox Ob and stingers, you just have to be willing to like Obox ob. Plus, 1381 has a realistic event. Sometimes, famines just hit.
Alediran 01-13-08, 08:44 AM	My advice is this. Pick 1382. Everything before that is perfectly reasonable. There's no reason why you can't have Obox Ob and stingers, you just have to be willing to like Obox ob. Plus, 1381 has a realistic event. Sometimes, famines just hit. If you don't have a problem, then I think It's a good starting point (you know why :P) I think the best point to start, since it will be 1382 is the final point where 3ed ends and 4ed begins: the attack of Cyric against Mystra. Since this will be a divergent story Cyric will fail and become weakened. john: that's a good idea, it leaves the options open for DMs who preffer a different ending.
OrderofUhlrik 01-13-08, 04:33 PM	Actualy I think we should leave the Twilight War open...and not drive to a end. Sembia a country of canny merchants...they shouldn't be that easy to be taken over in the way I think the Shades are trying.(tough if somebody wants to give me a summary of their plan I don't read the novels anymore). In other words lets do with this what WotC is failing to do and continue the Realms to be a world for RPGs not novels. I'm going to spoiler this for you. The plan so far is thus. Rivalen Tanthul, Mystic Theurge and Prince of Shade uses another priestess of Shar that is related to the sister (or cousin, my memory is fuzzy on that detail) of Sembia's Overmaster to kill the Overmaster and install said relative as the new Overmistress. The Overmistress's rise coincides with a magical trick the priestess uses that basically has the corpse accuse a rival noble when questioned by priests as to his murder. The rival noble denies it and from there a dispute between the overmistress and one noble holding begins a conflict that in turn sparks a wider civil war. Then the Shade take the side of the outnumbered rebel nobility in order to defeat the assembled Sembian forces and it is my assumption that after smashing the two armies that Sembia has fielded thus far and the total destruction of Ordulin by the Shadowstorm that Shade won't have much trouble taking over Sembia, as the nation was decaptated and left without a standing army by the destruction of Ordulin. As the only other assembled army had been defeated by Shade Enclave and rebel Sembians.
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 04:42 PM	-She was her niece.
OrderofUhlrik 01-13-08, 04:55 PM	Karsus, not to be an ass, but my confusion was the relation between the Overmistress and the Overmaster, not the priestess of Shar and the Overmistress (Even though I thought it was niece, I couldn't remember for sure). I just read the beginning of the book and realized that the Overmistress was the cousin of the assassinated Overmaster. Karsus, this is a question for you seeing as you have seemingly read the books. When Mephistopholes takes the half of the book that releases the Shadowstorm he willingly gives it to the Priestess of Shar. Are the Archdevils in collusion with Shar?
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 04:59 PM	Karsus, not to be an ass, but my confusion was the relation between the Overmistress and the Overmaster, not the priestess of Shar and the Overmistress (Even though I thought it was niece, I couldn't remember for sure). I just read the beginning of the book and realized that the Overmistress was the cousin of the assassinated Overmaster. -Whoops. Karsus, this is a question for you seeing as you have seemingly read the books. When Mephistopholes takes the half of the book that releases the Shadowstorm he willingly gives it to the Priestess of Shar. Are the Archdevils in collusion with Shar? -Possibly. It could also be that Mephistopholes knows that, by doing so, he hurts the chances of Cale & Co. accomplishing their goal, which means that he benefits.
OrderofUhlrik 01-13-08, 05:04 PM	The only reason I ask that, is that in the 2e sourcebook "Guide to Hell" it speaks of at least Asmodeus's true agenda to be equivalent with that of Shar's. But I don't know how much of that lore is still "canon".
Storm_Silverhand 01-13-08, 06:33 PM	Heya, Not the events per se, but the consecuences of those events. I preffered if Shade enclave was still half floating in the desert, trying to restore themselves. Or the Twilight War beeing a victory to Mask instead of Shar. Change those little bits that gave 4th edition FR, for example (the most important): Mystra survived the attack and left Cyric an almost lifeless husk, taking the Illusions portfolio from him. After that Mystra used Cyric's essence to absorb the Shadow Weave (since Cyric surely uses the SW) and take back control over it. This process completely weakened Cyric, who lost after that many portfolios, Intrigue by Mask, who was laughing besides Mystra, who thanked Mask for helping her. See, this is the trouble. We all see things progressing differently... Like I'd rather Mystra didn't absorb the Shadow Weave, since that would change her away from what she is. In my Realms, it'd be impossible anyway... No Shadow Weave to absorb. :) Also, Mystra survived the attack by Cyric in my Realms with the help of Vhaeraun (via Eilistraee, who gave up what she gained from Vhaeraun to Mystra)... It seems like Vhaeraun was lost in the process, though one could easily leave the door open for his return at a later date - perhaps HE could have the Shadow Weave and maybe return as a more neutral deity? Err... Umm.. don't mind me, just musing for my own benefit... Doesn't need to apply here. :P So anyway, I'd like to see the Shadow Weave go away or be controlled by someone other than Shar, but not because Mystra absorbed it.
XHereticX 01-13-08, 06:39 PM	The only reason I ask that, is that in the 2e sourcebook "Guide to Hell" it speaks of at least Asmodeus's true agenda to be equivalent with that of Shar's. But I don't know how much of that lore is still "canon". Ahh, my dark master does not take kindly to you releasing our most prized "ssssseecrets.":eek: On a more serious note. Asmodeus's goal is different from Shar's as far as I know. Shar seeks the destruction of Toril, while Asmodeus is focused on ravaging the Upper Planes.
Alediran 01-13-08, 06:56 PM	See, this is the trouble. We all see things progressing differently... Like I'd rather Mystra didn't absorb the Shadow Weave, since that would change her away from what she is. I would never change the nature of Mystra either. But we need a consensus so we can have an unified front. The SW is not evil per se, therefore Mystra shouldn't change that much (Galaeron when accepted what he was wasn't that different from what he was before, he was only wiser). In my Realms, it'd be impossible anyway... No Shadow Weave to absorb. :) And it will be like that still, but since the SW exists, the best thing we can do is get rid of it in an elegant way. Also, Mystra survived the attack by Cyric in my Realms with the help of Vhaeraun (via Eilistraee, who gave up what she gained from Vhaeraun to Mystra)... It's not even necessary, there are lots of ways that Mystra would be able to defeat Cyric by herself, not even counting the myriad allies she has, even among the evil gods. It seems like Vhaeraun was lost in the process, though one could easily leave the door open for his return at a later date - perhaps HE could have the Shadow Weave and maybe return as a more neutral deity? Err... Umm.. don't mind me, just musing for my own benefit... Doesn't need to apply here. :P The whole deal with the LP should be a plot between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun to weaken the recently empowered Lolth, since neither of them could survive against a Greater God, they preffered to join forces against her, rather than being destroyed. After returning Lolth to what she was before WotSQ they separate, and return to the status quo that existed before WotSQ. So anyway, I'd like to see the Shadow Weave go away or be controlled by someone other than Shar, but not because Mystra absorbed it. Me too, it was one of those bad ideas that only gave fuel to FR bashers. My idea was that Mystra, after absorbing the SW, changed the nature of the Weave, thanks to the new fount of power she had, so there could be no way that the Weave was split again, using every living entity as a small anchor. This altered the way magic was cast, favoring a new way (the 4ed mechanics).
OrderofUhlrik 01-13-08, 07:15 PM	Ahh, my dark master does not take kindly to you releasing our most prized "ssssseecrets.":eek: On a more serious note. Asmodeus's goal is different from Shar's as far as I know. Shar seeks the destruction of Toril, while Asmodeus is focused on ravaging the Upper Planes. Ah so the Guide to Hell is different. Because it clearly states in that sourcebook that Asmodeus is secretly taking all unclaimed souls to Avernus in order to free him from his imprisonment so that he can unmake the cosmos.
XHereticX 01-13-08, 07:37 PM	Ah so the Guide to Hell is different. Because it clearly states in that sourcebook that Asmodeus is secretly taking all unclaimed souls to Avernus in order to free him from his imprisonment so that he can unmake the cosmos. That was back when the whole Ahriman/Jarizan thing was still consitered canon. Tyrants of the Nine Hells overruled that a long time ago:) Also, even back then, Asmodeus only planned to unmake the cosmos, then remake it in his own image. Shar obviously wants it to die and stay dead.
OrderofUhlrik 01-13-08, 07:40 PM	My gaming group is strictly 2E. So suprisingly enough, so is the vast majority of the sourcebooks I own. >.< I liked 3e personally, mostly because I like sorcerors. But noooo, 2e and Greyhawk are the DM's lovechildren or something.
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 08:05 PM	But noooo, 2e and Greyhawk are the DM's lovechildren or something. -Oops. How embarassing. :embarrass
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-13-08, 08:08 PM	Alediran, I'd like to get on board with this.:) Personally, I'd prefer that the timeline goes up to 1374 or so, but that's just me.
Alediran 01-13-08, 09:05 PM	Alediran, I'd like to get on board with this.:) Personally, I'd prefer that the timeline goes up to 1374 or so, but that's just me. We have two sections to work. The time until 1374 which is mostly good, save some imperfections that can be cleaned. The time after that is the "puting pants and getting ouselves into slimy mud" part, which will require some major working and diverging so the "cannon" 4ed doesn't takes place. What we need to do now is organize ourselves: First, the date of cut is between 1374 and 1384 DR, I don't mind either one, because those 10 years are easier to model, since they have so little lore about them (RSE after RSE and nothing else, easy to retcon so they adjust to what we want). I admin that my organizational skills are somewhat lacking (racial defect of being argentinian :P), I'm more of a creative guy than a manager, so I think somebody else should do this. I propose Lord Karsus since he has showed how good he is with the Elven Netbook (he has far more free time than me, I work from 9 to 10 hours at day and I begin System Engineer at the end of the month)
Storm_Silverhand 01-13-08, 09:29 PM	Heya, I would never change the nature of Mystra either. But we need a consensus so we can have an unified front. The SW is not evil per se, therefore Mystra shouldn't change that much (Galaeron when accepted what he was wasn't that different from what he was before, he was only wiser). The implication (now I can't remember whether or not it was in FRCS or F&P) was that when (not if) Mystra absorbed the Shadow Weave, she'd lose the last of her humanity. That reads to me like she'll become TN. I don't like that idea, even if it follows the pattern (previously we've had CN and LN). :( And it will be like that still, but since the SW exists, the best thing we can do is get rid of it in an elegant way. Right. *nods* It's not even necessary, there are lots of ways that Mystra would be able to defeat Cyric by herself, not even counting the myriad allies she has, even among the evil gods. Even if she missed seeing it coming herself (and I can't see how she could have missed it, especially since the event originates in her home plane), Savras could have just warned her in time. Cyric in Dweomerheart is in no way a match for an alert and ready Mystra (mind you this applies both ways - Mystra in Cyric's home plane (name escapes me just at the moment) would be no match for an alert and ready Cyric)... No matter how much help he might have from Shar... At least that's how I think it should have worked... In fact, Cyric shouldn't have even been able to get to Dweomerheart without Mystra's permission - Shar or no Shar. The whole deal with the LP should be a plot between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun to weaken the recently empowered Lolth, since neither of them could survive against a Greater God, they preffered to join forces against her, rather than being destroyed. After returning Lolth to what she was before WotSQ they separate, and return to the status quo that existed before WotSQ. That works. :) Perhaps they have a new respect for each other into the bargain - and maybe Eilistraee learns from Vhaeraun (and vice versa) and both clergies open up to both genders. Me too, it was one of those bad ideas that only gave fuel to FR bashers. My idea was that Mystra, after absorbing the SW, changed the nature of the Weave, thanks to the new fount of power she had, so there could be no way that the Weave was split again, using every living entity as a small anchor. This altered the way magic was cast, favoring a new way (the 4ed mechanics). Why not, instead of absorbing it, just used it as a fuel to change the Weave? Once it's all burned up (and gone for good), magic is changed forever.
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 11:13 PM	First, the date of cut is between 1374 and 1384 DR, I don't mind either one, because those 10 years are easier to model, since they have so little lore about them (RSE after RSE and nothing else, easy to retcon so they adjust to what we want). -I vote for the cut to be at 1374. Past 1374 is when the things that people don't really like begin (Lady Penitent Trilogy, the 'Super Adventure Novels', etc.). I propose Lord Karsus since he has showed how good he is with the Elven Netbook (he has far more free time than me, I work from 9 to 10 hours at day and I begin System Engineer at the end of the month) -No can do, sorry. I was to focus more time and attention on Elves of Faerūn more than I have in the past few weeks. More responsibilities doesn't help me accomplish that goal.
OrderofUhlrik 01-13-08, 11:35 PM	Now see, I disagree with you Karsus. Plenty of events in 1375-76 are plausible and good storylines. Not all, Lady Penitent can be ignored if we're to be changing things anyhow, so don't throw the whole bunch out for one incredibly rotten apple. In fact, I could argue that some, keyword some, of the events in the Lady Penitent could be useful, depending on your personal take on the Drow Pantheon. The civil war in Thay and the Twilight War are great story devices, and if you're discarding 1375 you're also phasing out Khelban's death. Not that that is a no-no to me but as Rino pointed out in another thread not too long ago, Khelban's demise was at least hashed out and given reasoning.
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 11:49 PM	Plenty of events in 1375-76 are plausible and good storylines. -I didn't say they were all bad. I said that the events past 1374 are the ones that people start making the biggest commotion about. There's nothing stopping anyone from starting this at 1374, and then incorporating many of the events that happen post 1374. After all, many of the events introduced are organic, fluid and evolutions of earlier plothooks and such (The Twilight War, for instance). That's why I suggest starting at 1374, and then trudging on ffrom there, to weed out the things that are generally disliked, instead of starting at a point further in the future, and begrudgingly accepting the things from the past that "we" don't like. -Khelben died in 1374, also- hence the signifigance of lightning in the novel Blackstaff and the year being the Year of Lightning Storms (or whatever it was called exactly).
OrderofUhlrik 01-14-08, 01:38 AM	-I didn't say they were all bad. I said that the events past 1374 are the ones that people start making the biggest commotion about. There's nothing stopping anyone from starting this at 1374, and then incorporating many of the events that happen post 1374. After all, many of the events introduced are organic, fluid and evolutions of earlier plothooks and such (The Twilight War, for instance). That's why I suggest starting at 1374, and then trudging on ffrom there, to weed out the things that are generally disliked, instead of starting at a point further in the future, and begrudgingly accepting the things from the past that "we" don't like. -Khelben died in 1374, also- hence the signifigance of lightning in the novel Blackstaff and the year being the Year of Lightning Storms (or whatever it was called exactly). You are correct. I had gotten confused thinking 1375 was the Year of Lightning Storms rather than the Year of Risen Elfkin. And I apologize because I misconstrued what you were getting at. I thought you meant to wholly ignore the events past 1374. I agree now with your thoughts and would wholeheartedly offer my services to this endeavour.
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 01:44 AM	The only way I can see this working is if we offer each piece of alternate lore as a seperate 'module' that players can 'plug-in' to their own Realms. Don't like Mystra's death? Try lore "A1"; don't care if she dies, but don't want the Spellplague either, try lore "A2". Sad about Khelben's death? Might we suggest lore 'B1' for those of you with a heavy heart. Like the whole Mystra and the Spellplague thing, but still don't want to see that gawd-awful Helm/Tyr thing, try lore 'C1'... you get the idea. people can then choose to use all of what we come up with, or little bite-size chunks. Remember, everybody is going to have different ideas about what they like and what they don't like, and I really don't see a unified consensus happening concerning what the 'correct' Realms should look like. Trust me, I know - this same thing is currently holding up the Utter East project, and there are only three of us.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 02:13 AM	Remember, everybody is going to have different ideas about what they like and what they don't like, and I really don't see a unified consensus happening concerning what the 'correct' Realms should look like. -Well, that's what debate is for. -As editor of Elves of Faerūn, I can tell anyone who is not involved involved in it that there were plenty of times when we did not agree about specific things. We debate, but in the end, it's up to whoever is in charge (in that specific case, me) to make the final decision. Of course, I think that EoF is a little more clear-cut than this...
buzzard 01-14-08, 05:46 AM	Heya, Even if she missed seeing it coming herself (and I can't see how she could have missed it, especially since the event originates in her home plane), Multiple choices here: First, portfolio sense blocked by Shar centered on the location where Cyric (not Mystra) is moving, rendering him completely invisible to Mystra's remote senses (or any other deity) on her own plane; second, Cyric could use an antimagic field, the remote-sensing ability of a deity is a supernatural effect and as such it can be rendered useless by an antimagic field; finally, Cyric could have raised his Divine Shield (this is the best option for him), this ability blocks the remote sensing too. Using any one of this options would render Cyric completely invisible to the senses of Mystra, Azuth, Savras and Velsharoon (and if using the first scenario, Shar is still able to block another location and Cyric could block two other locations). The fact that Mystra was on her home plane makes no difference, her regular and portfolio senses are the same on Dweomerheart and in any other plane where Mystra's currently in. Savras could have just warned her in time. If you are implying that Savras could have warned her by casting divination spells, he hardly could, since his divination spells can easily be foiled with Mind Blank or Obscure Object (in the case that he's spying on his enemies) or if he's using the divination spell to know if something is going to go wrong in the future, it can be foiled with magic yielding false information. As for his portfolio sense: he's a demigod. "Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people." The ability is limited to the present. Meaning that even though he has the divination portfolio, he's limited to "divine" the present (yeah, that's really useful) or sense if a divination is being cast at present time, keep in mind that such divination has to affect one thousand or more people no less (his portfolio sense is of no real use to him :rolleyes:). Cyric in Dweomerheart is in no way a match for an alert and ready Mystra (mind you this applies both ways - Mystra in Cyric's home plane (name escapes me just at the moment) would be no match for an alert and ready Cyric)... No matter how much help he might have from Shar... At least that's how I think it should have worked... Actually Cyric is the only deity with lower Divine Rank than Mystra with a very high chance to defeat her (Deities of equal or greater rank that could defeat her include Chauntea, Shar and Silvanus) thanks to him having the Divine Dodge SDA (67% miss chance against enemies' attacks, of any nature, even spells, that's a very high chance of leaving unscathed and that's without taking in consideration any other defenses that Cyric could have had from before entering the Plane like an antimagic field, which Mystra has a 35% chance of dispelling -and that's if she successfully overcame the miss chance first-), add to that the fact that Cyric has the Supreme Initiative SDA (he gets to act always first against Mystra) and that he can avoid detection by Mystra (meaning that she might not be as ready as you think she could be). Cyric's homeplane is "The Supreme Throne". In fact, Cyric shouldn't have even been able to get to Dweomerheart without Mystra's permission - Shar or no Shar. Well, using the Dimensional Lock or Fobiddance spells to block teleportation on an infinite plane is rather useless (both spells have a limited area of effect). If she were to use her ability to change the astral links of her plane, it would take her a year and a day to change them and it requires her complete concentration on such task for 8 hours every day, making her quite vulnerable. Plus, as per PGtF (p. 152) "low-lying branches of the World Tree extend into Dweomerheart, connecting it with the other celestial planes", meaning that you could walk into the plane with Mystra unable to do anything about it. Add to the above author fiat and Cyric successfully managed to avoid Mystra's spells and defenses and blasted her into oblivion.
Alediran 01-14-08, 06:23 AM	The implication (now I can't remember whether or not it was in FRCS or F&P) was that when (not if) Mystra absorbed the Shadow Weave, she'd lose the last of her humanity. That reads to me like she'll become TN. I don't like that idea, even if it follows the pattern (previously we've had CN and LN). :( Why do we need to accept that? Since it was written by WotC ;) I never thought about the SW to be inherently evil. That works. :) Perhaps they have a new respect for each other into the bargain - and maybe Eilistraee learns from Vhaeraun (and vice versa) and both clergies open up to both genders. Sounds good. Why not, instead of absorbing it, just used it as a fuel to change the Weave? Once it's all burned up (and gone for good), magic is changed forever. I was actually thinking about a merge, where two become one. Giving more finesse to the Weave and allowing the new way of magic.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 06:23 AM	If you are implying that Savras could have warned her by casting divination spells, he hardly could, since his divination spells can easily be foiled with Mind Blank or Obscure Object (in the case that he's spying on his enemies) or if he's using the divination spell to know if something is going to go wrong in the future, it can be foiled with magic yielding false information. As for his portfolio sense: he's a demigod. "Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people." The ability is limited to the present. Meaning that even though he has the divination portfolio, he's limited to "divine" the present (his portfolio sense is of no real use to him :rolleyes: ) -Poor Savras. I've always had a spot in my heart for the guy. I never realized he was so...'unless'. I feel bad for him. :(
Alediran 01-14-08, 06:28 AM	-I vote for the cut to be at 1374. Past 1374 is when the things that people don't really like begin (Lady Penitent Trilogy, the 'Super Adventure Novels', etc.). The only way I can see this working is if we offer each piece of alternate lore as a seperate 'module' that players can 'plug-in' to their own Realms. Don't like Mystra's death? Try lore "A1"; don't care if she dies, but don't want the Spellplague either, try lore "A2". Sad about Khelben's death? Might we suggest lore 'B1' for those of you with a heavy heart. Like the whole Mystra and the Spellplague thing, but still don't want to see that gawd-awful Helm/Tyr thing, try lore 'C1'... you get the idea. I had an idea, that helps both sides. The time until 1374 is written in a neutral voice that gives a full account of the complete history (until the last even that is the return of the Elves to Myth Drannor and Khelben's death, it's the only acceptable one because it was a good death). After that, we can use MT64 idea, of modular lore that can be adjusted to what a DM preffers that runs from 1374 to 1384. -No can do, sorry. I was to focus more time and attention on Elves of Faerūn more than I have in the past few weeks. More responsibilities doesn't help me accomplish that goal. All right, no problem. I'll be the coordinator then, unless somebody else feel he/she can do it.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 06:33 AM	I had an idea, that helps both sides. The time until 1374 is written in a neutral voice that gives a full account of the complete history (until the last even that is the return of the Elves to Myth Drannor and Khelben's death, it's the only acceptable one because it was a good death). After that, we can use MT64 idea, of modular lore that can be adjusted to what a DM preffers that runs from 1374 to 1384. -Not to be too critical, but what is the goal of this? Do you want to present multiple varying paths of time that are possible after 1374 DR? Do you want to pick up where the 4e Realms leave off, and continue advancing lore, creating pseudocanon lore? Something entirely different? Before ideas begin to get tossed around, it's imperative that everyone be on the same page and know what exactly's going on?
Alediran 01-14-08, 06:50 AM	-Not to be too critical, but what is the goal of this? Do you want to present multiple varying paths of time that are possible after 1374 DR? Do you want to pick up where the 4e Realms leave off, and continue advancing lore, creating pseudocanon lore? Something entirely different? Before ideas begin to get tossed around, it's imperative that everyone be on the same page and know what exactly's going on? The idea is to give both a complete and clean history of the realms (thanks to brian we have half the work done :D ), which would be the lore until 1374 DR and tools for DMs, to use the 4ed ruleset with Forgotten Realms Classic. I've read many WoD books, and I like the way they give four or five possibilities for something, that sometimes are completely opposite one of the other. This would be represented by the last ten years from 1374 to 1384 DR. Because I know many DMs would preffer a different approach that what I like, and I don't want to force them to only one way (that's what WotC is doing with the realms now and I don't like it). Is it clear what I want to achieve?
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 06:59 AM	Is it clear what I want to achieve? -So, from 1374 on to whenever, you want to present a bunch of theoretical possibilities that the timeline could have possibly progressed. Gotcha.
Alediran 01-14-08, 07:06 AM	-So, from 1374 on to whenever, you want to present a bunch of theoretical possibilities that the timeline could have possibly progressed. Gotcha. Exactly, this gives a DM flexibility to have their own progression. We'll even encourage readers to come with their own posibilities. The hard part is the website I'm doing, I'm still trying to resolve some data retrieval from the Database so it can be printed on screen (very important for the boards, blog and enciclopedia) I updated the ToC and added a Present Time section.
Storm_Silverhand 01-14-08, 07:23 AM	Heya, Multiple choices here: First, portfolio sense blocked by Shar centered on the location where Cyric (not Mystra) is moving, rendering him completely invisible to Mystra's remote senses (or any other deity) on her own plane; second, Cyric could use an anti-magic shield, the remote-sensing ability of a deity is a supernatural effect and as such it can be rendered useless by an antimagic field; finally, Cyric could have raised his Divine Shield (this is the best option for him), this ability blocks the remote sensing too. Using any one of this options would render Cyric completely invisible to the senses of Mystra, Azuth, Savras and Velsharoon (and if using the first scenario, Shar is still able to block another location and Cyric could block two other locations). The fact that Mystra was on her home plane makes no difference, her regular and portfolio senses are the same on Dweomerheart and in any other plane where Mystra's currently in. You always seem to pop up when I'm talking about these sorts of things, usually bringing some good points with you (as you have)... :) However, Cyric and Shar between them can only block so many deities and only for so long - Mystra has more allies than just the ones on Dweomerheart - Let me see here... Mystra's allies include the likes of Selune, Eilistraee, Oghma, Denier, Milil, Corellon, Isis, and Thoth. Given that most of the deities on that list have a vested interest in keeping Mystra alive, they'd all need to be blocked. There are probably some more who aren't direct allies, but whom might also have a vested interest in keeping her alive - Sune, Tymora, Lurue, Mielikki, and other deities (perhaps the others involved in the formation of the Harpers, for example). Which would mean either Shar and Cyric were not alone in their plot (other deities needed to block other deities), or the plot is just impossible - nearly every single deity in the pantheon would have sensed that something was wrong, because the Spellplague would have a direct effect on... well, pretty much every living being on the planet (in other words, they'd sense something big was about to happen to their followers). If you are implying that Savras could have warned her by casting divination spells, he hardly could, since his divination spells can easily be foiled with Mind Blank or Obscure Object (in the case that he's spying on his enemies) or if he's using the divination spell to know if something is going to go wrong in the future, it can be foiled with magic yielding false information. As for his portfolio sense: he's a demigod. "Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people." The ability is limited to the present. Meaning that even though he has the divination portfolio, he's limited to "divine" the present or sense if a divination is being cast at present time (his portfolio sense is of no real use to him :rolleyes: ) Good points all, and agreed on how stupid that sounds. :) Actually Cyric is the only deity with lower Divine Rank than Mystra with a very high chance to defeat her (Deities of equal or greater rank that could defeat her include Chauntea, Shar and Silvanus) thanks to him having the Divine Dodge SDA (67% miss chance against enemies' attacks, of any nature, even spells, that's a very high chance of leaving unscathed and that's without taking in consideration any other defenses that Cyric could have had from before entering the Plane like an antimagic field, which Mystra has a 35% chance of dispelling -and that's if she successfully overcame the miss chance first-), add to that the fact that Cyric has the Supreme Initiative SDA (he gets to act always first against Mystra) and that he can avoid detection by Mystra (meaning that she might not be as ready as you think she could be). Cyric's homeplane is "The Supreme Throne". I've never liked the idea that gods have stats. I don't mind stats for avatars, and this is possibly where I trip myself up because I usually take the main stat block to be their avatar, and not the deity themselves. Deities should be immensely powerful on their home planes, and not be so easily killed through mundane (ie: melee and ordinary spells) means. (This is one aspect of 4e I am not going to implement - the idea that level 30 characters can take out a god on their home plane.) Well, using the Dimensional Lock or Fobiddance spells to block teleportation on an infinite plane is rather useless (both spells have a limited area of effect). If she were to use her ability to change the astral links of her plane, it would take her a year and a day to change them and it requires her complete concentration on such task for 8 hours every day, making her quite vulnerable. Plus, as per PGtF (p. 152) "low-lying branches of the World Tree extend into Dweomerheart, connecting it with the other celestial planes", meaning that you could walk into the plane with Mystra unable to do anything about it. Add to the above author fiat and Cyric successfully managed to avoid Mystra's spells and defenses and blasted her into oblivion. I was under the impression that a deity needed permission to enter the realm of another deity. It seems that I am mistaken, and I feel a touch foolish because it should have been obvious that that wasn't the case. (I seem to recall reading something about needing permission in either Prince of Lies or Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad.) Anyway, this really is all besides the point because we're not just talking about how 4e Realms work, we're talking about an alternate Realms where Mystra won't die. :)
Storm_Silverhand 01-14-08, 07:30 AM	Heya, Why do we need to accept that? Since it was written by WotC ;) I never thought about the SW to be inherently evil. I think the idea that the SW is inherently evil comes from the fact that Shar, the controller of said weave, is evil. Plus you need a high wisdom to wield it, and also the effect the SW has on the protagonist of the RotAW series. But you're right, we don't necessarily need to accept it. I was actually thinking about a merge, where two become one. Giving more finesse to the Weave and allowing the new way of magic. I suppose it could work that way... I'm happy just so long as it doesn't hurt or harm Mystra in any way. ;) :D
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 07:37 AM	I suppose it could work that way... I'm happy just so long as it doesn't hurt or harm Mystra in any way. ;) :D -I could see Mystra regaining control of the Shadow Weave causing her to become slightly more 'darker'- not in the sense of alignment; in the sense that it makes her more mysterious, intruguing, and all synonyms of that. You know, give her some eyeshadow under her eyes, something like that.
Alediran 01-14-08, 07:56 AM	-I could see Mystra regaining control of the Shadow Weave causing her to become slightly more 'darker'- not in the sense of alignment; in the sense that it makes her more mysterious, intruguing, and all synonyms of that. You know, give her some eyeshadow under her eyes, something like that. Sounds hot :P You always seem to pop up when I'm talking about these sorts of things. Don't worry, he doesn't bites (often), he's my brother.
buzzard 01-14-08, 08:01 AM	Heya, You always seem to pop up when I'm talking about these sorts of things, usually bringing some good points with you (as you have)... :) I like to discuss this hypothetical situations between the gods because they are complex, both character-wise and stat-wise (although many people disregard the latter). And it just happens that you bring up such subject quite regularly :P. However, Cyric and Shar between them can only block so many deities and only for so long - Mystra has more allies than just the ones on Dweomerheart - Let me see here... Mystra's allies include the likes of Selune, Eilistraee, Oghma, Denier, Milil, Corellon, Isis, and Thoth. Given that most of the deities on that list have a vested interest in keeping Mystra alive, they'd all need to be blocked. There are probably some more who aren't direct allies, but whom might also have a vested interest in keeping her alive - Sune, Tymora, Lurue, Mielikki, and other deities (perhaps the others involved in the formation of the Harpers, for example). Which would mean either Shar and Cyric were not alone in their plot (other deities needed to block other deities), or the plot is just impossible - nearly every single deity in the pantheon would have sensed that something was wrong, because the Spellplague would have a direct effect on... well, pretty much every living being on the planet (in other words, they'd sense something big was about to happen to their followers). Neither Cyric nor Shar need to block multiple deities but a place where those rival deities could be using the remote sense ability (any deity can block up to 2 locations at the same time), blocking a place means that no deity (of equal or lower rank) can successfully use the remote sensing ability on that place. So Shar actively blocks the place where Cyric is moving, now no one can remote sense anything on that spot where Cyric walks (except Chauntea who has a higher divine rank than Shar). Something that's regularly postulated (I do it a lot :embarrass ) is that a deity can block the senses of another deity (as in X deity now cannot use any remote or portfolio sense powers). This is incorrect, a deity can block a place where another deity could use it's remote or portfolio senses. So X can still use her/his abilities but they wouldn't work on Y spot. In the scenario I've proposed, Shar is actively blocking the Y spot that Cyric is occupying. Now the question to answer is, why didn't Chauntea sensed Cyric if she can bypass Shar's blockage? Well, because deities have a limited amount of places where they can use their remote senses, Greater Deities like Chauntea can remote sense up to 20 remote locations and it's logical that she would be sensing places relative to her or her followers, she can't be every other deity's personal security guard. Not to mention the fact that the remote sensing ability -in Chauntea's case- has a range of 19 miles and Dweomerheart is an infinite plane, Cyric could be anywhere, it would take a lot of Tymora to find Cyric in time (add to that the fact that Chauntea surely ignores what's about to transpire). Also if we go with the strict definition of the remote sensing ability, Chauntea could only percieve the following: everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs. But now that I think about it, there's something Chauntea could do, use her remote sensing ability centered on Mystra (Mystra needs to speak Chauntea's name every hour :P) and when Cyric gets 19 miles near Lady Magic, he will be spotted. Of course, Cyric could do something to favor himself too: As a supernatural ability, the remote sensing ability (of any amount of deities) can be blocked by an antimagic field (I quote: "Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field"). The same applies for a Divine Shield and I quote "The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield" (which I mentioned as Cyric's best option when entering Dweomerheart), both of these options disregard how much Divine Rank the opposing deity has, much better choices than Shar's blocking ability that can only be avoided by Chauntea. I was under the impression that a deity needed permission to enter the realm of another deity. It seems that I am mistaken, and I feel a touch foolish because it should have been obvious that that wasn't the case. (I seem to recall reading something about needing permission in either Prince of Lies or Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad.) In novels it may be the case, I don't know if it was like that under 2ed rules. However, in third edition Mystra could block the entire plane from outside teleportation only by spending a year and one day (concentrating 8 hours per day) to block such means of transportation. In any case it would have been more logical if it was Shar who murdered Mystra, not only because they're equal in DvR but because Shar's SDAs are almost completely geared towards combat, plus, she could render herself completely immune to Mystra's spells or planar magical defenses (whereas Cyric has a high chance to avoid them). But WotC probably used Cyric because of the murder theme (and their old rivalry).
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 08:02 AM	Don't worry, he doesn't bites (often), he's my brother. -What!? :eek: :: Cue Music ::
Alediran 01-14-08, 08:04 AM	-What!? :eek: :: Cue Music :: I know, it sounds weird :P I'm the Chaotic Good Sun Elf and he's the Lawful Neutral Human Sorcerer. I never understood how I got a human brother.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 08:08 AM	I know, it sounds weird :P I'm the Chaotic Good Sun Elf and he's the Lawful Neutral Human Sorcerer. I never understood how I got a human brother. -You don't have to say a word. I, being the Sun Elven Selu'Taar aspect of Karsus, completely understand.
buzzard 01-14-08, 08:11 AM	I know, it sounds weird :P I'm the Chaotic Good Sun Elf and he's the Lawful Neutral Human Sorcerer. I never understood how I got a human brother. Then you are a half-elf and you just didn't know.
Alediran 01-14-08, 08:12 AM	Then you are a half-elf and you just didn't know. I know I don't need to sleep for eight hours, so that is a good indication that I'm full elf.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-14-08, 03:00 PM	Hmmm, according to Ed Greenwood, the SW is just an "echo" of the regular Weave, and going by his explanation Mystra wouldn't need to "absorb" it, since it truly is already hers.:) That's just the explanation *I* accept, though--I have no desire to debate about what the "truth" about the SW is.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-14-08, 03:01 PM	Regarding the topic--there are events even in 1374 that I dislike, such as the "Elven Crusade" plot and resettlement of Myth Drannor. But no matter what is decided, I would still like to contribute, as I don't expect an exact replica of "my" Realms to be found anywhere except in my own head.:)
Alediran 01-14-08, 03:34 PM	Regarding the topic--there are events even in 1374 that I dislike, such as the "Elven Crusade" plot and resettlement of Myth Drannor. But no matter what is decided, I would still like to contribute, as I don't expect an exact replica of "my" Realms to be found anywhere except in my own head.:) The general idea of the Elven Crusade I like, it's parts of the execution I don't (for example the story between Araevin and Ilselvel). It's a good backgroun for making Heroes of Battle adventures.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-14-08, 04:29 PM	I just tend to get annoyed when complicated adventure hooks like Myth Drannor get solved and tied up mainly by NPCs in novels.
johnkretzer 01-14-08, 06:38 PM	If I may make a suggestion about where to cut the the date off...I would personaly go for the 1374... If we are just going to give alternative timelines then TL :1 could be something that Rino likes more...while TL:2 could keep certain events that happened in Canon that msatran likes. Just because we are going to change some events others don't have too.
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 06:44 PM	I had an idea, that helps both sides. The time until 1374 is written in a neutral voice that gives a full account of the complete history (until the last even that is the return of the Elves to Myth Drannor and Khelben's death, it's the only acceptable one because it was a good death). After that, we can use MT64 idea, of modular lore that can be adjusted to what a DM preffers that runs from 1374 to 1384.I only suggested this, because it would be the best way to get the largest number of people using your site, If we limit ourselves to a single path, and someone doesn't like one certain aspect of it, it might turn them off to the rest. (thanks for making me a year younger, BTW :P ) However, in a way, that may also turn around and bite us in the a_s - some people LIKE to be lead by the nose down a certain path. So, how about this - We create one linear path that we all can contribute to, and then individually we can have 'alternate' articles (almost like sidebars) describing how things could have gone differently in the DM's home campaign. This way, everyone can read the psuedo-canon timeline, and anything they don't care for in particular, we can offer them at least one option about what happened and how it all went down. The Mystra/Cyric conflict I'm pretty sure each one of us can come up with our own version and conclusion of the confrontation between Mystra and Cyric, given all the variables. Then Alediran can choose which is our canon one, and have the rest as alternates. We can proceed along these lines with each new factor we introduce, or each piece of true canon lore we wish to see modified. The first of these 'secondary projects', I would think, should be the Helm/Tyr/Tymora incident; did it happen? Did it happen differently? What exactly were the circumstances behind that whole sordid affair? By Moradin's beard! I'm not seeing a reason to do anything with the Dwarven Pantheon Lore, because its affects are not as far-reaching, and people can already just choose to ignore it. Drow I'm not at all up to speed with the Lady Panitent Series, which is weird because I am handling the Dark Elves for the other thread, but I know enough from spoilers to get the general gist of it. I'll just sit back and see what you guys come up with for that one. Shadowcrap Right now, I don't even think the designers understand the Shadow weave. I know what Ed said, but if it had ANY connection to Mystra, then I don't see how Shar could have used it against her. Ed's a great guy and all, but unfortunely the Shadow Weave is really Rich Baker's love child. He seems to think it is a completely seperate and self-sustaining animal, and most of the (novel) lore goes along with that. If we look at this from a 4e perspective (sorrow, but it's gonna come up), then regular magic and Shadow magic derive from two different sources. I have postulated in the past that their were other 'types' of magical energy, with 'Arcane' coming from Mytra's Weave, and 'Eldritch' coming from the Plane of Shadows (Shadow weave). This is really nothing new - we've always had energies drawn off from the elemental and positive & negative planes; its just that with older editions, it was accepted that there was some interface in place to access all of these different types of energy. If we just assume the weave was this interface, and the energies involved were always different, then we can see how someone (Shar and her worshippers) discovered a more direct route to a particular energy, which would negate the need for Mystra's Weave (losing a lot of its multi-functionality in the process). So, I'm for saying that the Shadow Weave was merely 'leaning' on Mystra's Weave, and that the energies it harnessed had nothing to do with her. After the collapse of the real Weave, the Shadow weave was able to remain active, at least for a little while, until it too collapsed under it's own 'weight'. It just goes a long way in explaining why she was unable to detect any of the stuff Shar was doing behind her back. How can she have been the 'be-all, end-all' of magic, and someone use magic against her? It just makes no sense.
Alediran 01-14-08, 06:57 PM	The website is begining to take shape. I'm almost finished with the data manager (which is 50% percent of the programation, after that is just send and retrieve data acording to what I want), so far so good. I'm just having problems when I try to fill more than one table at the same time.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 07:00 PM	(thanks for making me a year younger, BTW :P) -Ah, that's what the '63' stands for.
Storm_Silverhand 01-14-08, 07:00 PM	Heya, I like to discuss this hypothetical situations between the gods because they are complex, both character-wise and stat-wise (although many people disregard the latter). And it just happens that you bring up such subject quite regularly :P. It's because it is something I find interesting, though obviously I'm not as rules savvy as you concerning the gods. :) Neither Cyric nor Shar need to block multiple deities but a place where those rival deities could be using the remote sense ability (any deity can block up to 2 locations at the same time), blocking a place means that no deity (of equal or lower rank) can successfully use the remote sensing ability on that place. So Shar actively blocks the place where Cyric is moving, now no one can remote sense anything on that spot where Cyric walks (except Chauntea who has a higher divine rank than Shar). <snip> It wouldn't even be a case of them directly sensing things. It would more be like "Hey, Mystra, our faithful are about to be effected by a catastrophic failure of the Weave in the future. You might want to be on your guard." They can block a place or multiple places, but they can't block every single person on Faerun, nor could they reasonably block every single deity whose portfolio might be effected - for instance, Chauntea would sense it just on the basis of the fact that the land becomes mutable. It's too big a thing for her not to sense. Suitably warned, Mystra would have a chance to counter what is to come (even if she doesn't know exactly what it is, though I'm sure she could guess). In any case it would have been more logical if it was Shar who murdered Mystra, not only because they're equal in DvR but because Shar's SDAs are almost completely geared towards combat, plus, she could render herself completely immune to Mystra's spells or planar magical defenses (whereas Cyric has a high chance to avoid them). But WotC probably used Cyric because of the murder theme (and their old rivalry). Let me just say that there are some disturbing themes behind Cyric killing Midnight given their past history. I really wish Wizards hadn't gone there.
buzzard 01-14-08, 07:35 PM	It wouldn't even be a case of them directly sensing things. It would more be like "Hey, Mystra, our faithful are about to be effected by a catastrophic failure of the Weave in the future. You might want to be on your guard." None of those other deities could tell that the Weave would fail in the future because only Mystra has that particular portfolio sense. Mystra could be fooled when sensing the future (which she can do as a Greater Deity) because the Spellplague is a magical effect, maybe to her such an event registers as the Weave working as normal because she would perceive magical effects working. They can block a place or multiple places, but they can't block every single person on Faerun, nor could they reasonably block every single deity whose portfolio might be effected - for instance, Chauntea would sense it just on the basis of the fact that the land becomes mutable. It's too big a thing for her not to sense. Well, F&P actually says that Chauntea senses anything that affects agriculture, no more, no less (most deities get the shaft in that regard, for example, Mystra only senses spells and spell-like abilities -only from the Weave, not the Shadow Weave- being cast but not if the Weave itself works and Shar can sense acts of treachery or nihilism that takes place under the cover of darkness but she has no ability to sense "secrets", "the Underdark", "caverns", "dungeons", "forgetfulness" or "loss", this is something that I would point out as incorrect information since the rules for deities clearly state that deities sense everything related to all their portfolios, not specific ones -of course with some variations pertaining to the extent of such ability depending on the DvR of the deity-). Disregarding the mentioned limitations to portfolio senses, while those other deities would feel that something is wrong, they could not point out the source of the problem, such a massive modification of the landscape could be the work of an Epic Spell and Chauntea does not have the spells or weave portfolios. She wouldn't be able to tell the origin of her problems and because of that she wouldn't be able to prevent Mystra, only Lady Magic could do it for herself. Suitably warned, Mystra would have a chance to counter what is to come (even if she doesn't know exactly what it is, though I'm sure she could guess). Warned, yes she has a chance and could probably defeat Citric (however, he could enter Dweomerheart very well warded too), although if you take in consideration his very high chance of avoiding her spells and you add to that artistic license, you've got a dead Lady of Mysteries. And that's why I'd prefer Shar combating Mystra, since Shar has the ability to render herself 100% immune to Mystra's magical attacks, avoiding any controversy as to who could defeat who. Let me just say that there are some disturbing themes behind Cyric killing Midnight given their past history. I really wish Wizards hadn't gone there. True.
johnkretzer 01-14-08, 11:25 PM	Disregarding the mentioned limitations to portfolio senses, while those other deities would feel that something is wrong, they could not point out the source of the problem, such a massive modification of the landscape could be the work of an Epic Spell and Chauntea does not have the spells or weave portfolios. She wouldn't be able to tell the origin of her problems and because of that she wouldn't be able to prevent Mystra, only Lady Magic could do it for herself. Sure Chauntea might think it is a epic level spell...so wouldn't she at that point just gop and talk to Mystra? I mean the gods (despite depiction to the contray are not morons). I really long for the days(2nd edition) back when the gods didn't have stats and this sillieness wouldn't be mechanicaly possible. Oh sure Shar could make herself immune to Mystra's magic and Mystra would then just leave...there is no reason that she would stay and fight just to loose.
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 11:51 PM	Let me just say that there are some disturbing themes behind Cyric killing Midnight given their past history. I really wish Wizards hadn't gone there.You mean, like the 'Stalker' won? I could come up with some poinent social commentary about the deception of security, but I think you guys already have pretty good ideas about that yourselves. ;)
18DELTA 01-15-08, 12:22 AM	-Ah, that's what the '63' stands for. -Yeah...he's a 63 model, of what I dont know yet!:P LORD DELTA:heehee
Storm_Silverhand 01-15-08, 02:06 AM	Heya, None of those other deities could tell that the Weave would fail in the future because only Mystra has that particular portfolio sense. Mystra could be fooled when sensing the future (which she can do as a Greater Deity) because the Spellplague is a magical effect, maybe to her such an event registers as the Weave working as normal because she would perceive magical effects working. My wording definitely left a lot to be desired. What I was trying to say was there's this huge disruption of everything and wizards and sorcerers and other arcane spell casters devoted to a broad range of deities all suddenly are going mad or falling ill or having their magic literally blow up in their faces - that would be a HUGE hint that the problems they're foreseeing are related to the Weave. They might not be able to tell directly, but gods aren't stupid... there'd be enough indirect hints that they'd figure it out fast. Well, F&P actually says that Chauntea senses anything that affects agriculture, no more, no less (most deities get the shaft in that regard, for example, Mystra only senses spells and spell-like abilities -only from the Weave, not the Shadow Weave- being cast but not if the Weave itself works and Shar can sense acts of treachery or nihilism that takes place under the cover of darkness but she has no ability to sense "secrets", "the Underdark", "caverns", "dungeons", "forgetfulness" or "loss", this is something that I would point out as incorrect information since the rules for deities clearly state that deities sense everything related to all their portfolios, not specific ones -of course with some variations pertaining to the extent of such ability depending on the DvR of the deity-). As far as I know, Mystra can sense all spells, no matter which interface they use. Otherwise her portfolio would read "Weave Spells", which it doesn't (Mystra's portfolio reads: Magic, Spells, the Weave). Incidentally, Shar can't sense the Shadow Weave and things affecting it with her portfolio sense, since her portfolio doesn't include the Shadow Weave... Stupid, huh? Disregarding the mentioned limitations to portfolio senses, while those other deities would feel that something is wrong, they could not point out the source of the problem, such a massive modification of the landscape could be the work of an Epic Spell and Chauntea does not have the spells or weave portfolios. She wouldn't be able to tell the origin of her problems and because of that she wouldn't be able to prevent Mystra, only Lady Magic could do it for herself. Plenty of agriculture went BOOM with the Spellplague - remember, the entire land became mutable (an epic spell can only do so much before it becomes impossible to cast without a nation of casters all casting it at once)... Not just the wilderness. Plus any wizards and or sorcerers and or other arcane spellcasters devoted to her have been effected directly. And it's not just Chauntea we're talking about either. Warned, yes she has a chance and could probably defeat Citric (however, he could enter Dweomerheart very well warded too), although if you take in consideration his very high chance of avoiding her spells and you add to that artistic license, you've got a dead Lady of Mysteries. The whole scenario is predicated on artistic license, IMHO. And that's why I'd prefer Shar combating Mystra, since Shar has the ability to render herself 100% immune to Mystra's magical attacks, avoiding any controversy as to who could defeat who. Even if Mystra couldn't effect Shar directly, as another poster points out quite rightly, she has other options. Teleporting away, calling on allies, causing the plane itself to eject Shar... etc. So there's still controversy there to be argued over. :) You mean, like the 'Stalker' won? Uh, yeah. The most powerful female in the whole setting gets killed by her stalker... Very empowering message, WotC! :rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 03:15 AM	There are no powerful females in 4e... but I hear they have a nice set of 'Homemaker' Paths for ya'. ;) Sorry, I'm just being sarcastic... but I figure if they truly are turning this game back into OD&D, then they probably want to get rid of the all the 'icky girls' to really give it that 1974 flavor.
18DELTA 01-15-08, 03:20 AM	There are no powerful females in 4e... but I hear they have a nice set of 'Homemaker' Paths for ya'. ;) -What barefoot and knocked up, or lonely homemaker?;) -I know that is so wrong. So which is the paragon path, and which is the epic destiny?:P LORD DELTA:hides:
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 03:32 AM	I'm a level 3 Houswife, with Feats in Coooking and Sewing... I also carry around a +3 Rolling-pin of Spousal Destruction. Yeah, thats the Archtype I think they're shootin' for. :rolleyes:
buzzard 01-15-08, 04:51 AM	Heya, As far as I know, Mystra can sense all spells, no matter which interface they use. Otherwise her portfolio would read "Weave Spells", which it doesn't (Mystra's portfolio reads: Magic, Spells, the Weave). Incidentally, Shar can't sense the Shadow Weave and things affecting it with her portfolio sense, since her portfolio doesn't include the Shadow Weave... Stupid, huh? I won't argue the rest of your post because I partially agree with those arguments. In regards to Mystra's portfolio sense, it is as I've told you before, most deities get the shaft in regards to this particular ability, yes, Mystra may have all those portfolios but if you go to the portfolio sense section of her stats she can only sense spell, spell-like abilities and or magic items that draw on the Weave, it is explicitly stated that she cannot detect those who draw on the Shadow Weave. The most offending case is actually Shar, she has one of the broadest portfolios including Secrets, Loss, Forgetfulness, The Underdark, Cavern, Dungeons, Dark and Night, yet if you go to her portfolio sense ability, it's stated that she can only perceive acts of treachery or nihilism under the cover of darkness and, that completely ignores her two most important portfolios, loss and secrets -not to mention a lot of other portfolios that she has in her clutches-. Of course if you read all the fluff about her it does state that she can sense everything under the night, and that she knows every secret yadda yadda but statistically that's not quite true it seems. Chauntea has farmers and gardeners in her portfolio, yet her portfolio sense can't "officially" sense them, I guess that's why she didn't care about her followers dying when the Spellplague hit :rolleyes:... Anyways, as I've said before, in the rules for creating deities it is actually stated that a deity can sense about anything related to all his/her portfolios, with different limitations according to divine rank in respect to the scope of the event and the time in which it happens; but, it is never stated that the portfolio sense should be limited to a set of the deity's portfolios so this might actually be a huge error on Faiths & Pantheons.
Taurren 01-15-08, 09:17 AM	I think a little organization is needed if folks are committed to making this happen as a group. We need a place where the various main topics can be discussed in a focused manner. Currently we seem all over the place. Having these discussions and establishing our "starting point" on Gleemax would actually be ironic.
Alediran 01-15-08, 09:40 AM	I'm going to use MT last suggestion, a complete canonical history until 1374 DR, an "official" timeline from that moment until the future and optional possibilities for those who want a different approach. The 1374 DR thread is: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14835083 The beyond 1374 DR thread is: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14835106 We should continue discussing here what affects both sides and those things that belong only to one of those sections should be discused in the corresponding thread.
18DELTA 01-15-08, 11:35 AM	I'm a level 3 Houswife, with Feats in Coooking and Sewing... I also carry around a +3 Rolling-pin of Spousal Destruction. Yeah, thats the Archtype I think they're shootin' for. :rolleyes: -As long as she is HOT its all good!!!:ayyyy!: LORD DELTA:P
Storm_Silverhand 01-15-08, 05:44 PM	Heya, Anyways, as I've said before, in the rules for creating deities it is actually stated that a deity can sense about anything related to all his/her portfolios, with different limitations according to divine rank in respect to the scope of the event and the time in which it happens; but, it is never stated that the portfolio sense should be limited to a set of the deity's portfolios so this might actually be a huge error on Faiths & Pantheons. Sounds like it, but is that really surprising?
Alediran 01-16-08, 07:37 AM	Well people, we now have the necesary threads to work, I want each of you to tell me what you want to handle in the corresponding thread so we can start this worthy proyect.
Stigger 01-17-08, 07:50 AM	I'm a little unclear as to what you're asking for as far as the geography section goes to be honest... is that a regional history sort of thing, with maybe a current timeline overview, or something else entirely? I'd love to contribute to some of the stuff about the (human) deities and maybe some regional culture stuff I've got churning around in my brain, but I have a feeling a lot of my views aren't going to necessarily go along with what others think of them. Time is something of an issue for me at the moment, but that should go away in a week or two, depending on how much I slack off with my conversion process.
Alediran 01-17-08, 08:03 AM	The geography should be like what appears in the FRCG, a present state of the region, it's cities, people and plot hooks, and a local timeline with the most importante events for the area, because not every important thing that happened in the Silver Marches would be in the History section and I don't want to loose anything. If you want to handle something just post in in the until 1374 DR thread and I'll mark it for you.
Alediran 01-17-08, 06:44 PM	Data retrieval is 100% complete. I'm ready to begin the site properly.
Alediran 01-22-08, 05:49 PM	The enciclopedia's functionality is done. Articles can be read divided by it's corresponding Section and Sub Section.
Khaelieth 01-22-08, 07:28 PM	The enciclopedia's functionality is done. Articles can be read divided by it's corresponding Section and Sub Section. *Twitch* Encyclopedia. Its corresponding. Sorry=( It's = It is.
Alediran 01-24-08, 07:10 AM	NP. Guys and Gals. I need to create a name for the website (if it can match the web domain name then better) I just tried to register therealmsvault (.com, .net and .org), theclassicrealmsvault (.com, .net and .org) and both are unavailable.
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 08:48 AM	-TheRealmsvault is cool. That sucks. -I suggest making a contest. Make a new thread, ask everyone for their suggestions, and then at some point, have everyone take a vote. Mind you, that might take a couple of days, but it would be fun. -If you don't want to go that route, how about, in this order (coolest to least cool): Realmsvault.com/org/net FRVault.com/org/net Abeir-Toril.com/org/net Faerūn.com/org/net Realmsdepot.com/org/net Realmstation.com/org/net
Alediran 01-24-08, 08:59 AM	I just checked forgottenrealmsvault.com and it's available.
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 09:01 AM	-Is FRVault open? Because, that's about ten times easier to type! :D
Alediran 01-24-08, 09:08 AM	I know, but it wasn't available either. And it's a powerfull name.
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 09:16 AM	-Well, what's the final decision? -Good work with all of this, by the way. :)
Alediran 01-24-08, 09:21 AM	We'll use it, if it doesn't work then we'll change it. Even then, most people can remember the address (it's the hard part) and if they don't want to write the name that's why they have bookmarks.
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 09:24 AM	We'll use it, if it doesn't work then we'll change it. Even then, most people can remember the address (it's the hard part) and if they don't want to write the name that's why they have bookmarks. -You can change that kind of stuff? Oh, I didn't know that. Go figure. -Well, let us all know when it's up and everything. :)
Alediran 01-24-08, 09:25 AM	I can even have more than one address for the same site. EDIT: The hosting is up and working, in a couple days the forgottenrealmsvault.com domain will be available. The hosting even gives mail addresses with the forgottenrealmsvault.com domain. I should be able to upload the first betatest of the website (it only has the encyclopedia working and no design) this evening when I return home.
Alediran 01-25-08, 06:16 AM	The domain is approved, I'm uploading an already existant board system (phpBB since it's free) until the true website is made. We can use the temporal boards for this project, and LK, you can use them to post the full Elven Netbook too. I'll inform when it's running.
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 07:56 AM	We can use the temporal boards for this project, and LK, you can use them to post the full Elven Netbook too. I'll inform when it's running. -Excellent!
Alediran 01-25-08, 08:17 AM	I just need to create the Data Base but the Control Panel for the Hosting is down thanks to an id***/group of idio** who made a massive DoS (Denial of Service) attack to some of the main servers of the region. Hopefully in a couple hours I'll have the boards up and running.
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 08:25 AM	-You can write 'idiot'. :P
Alediran 01-25-08, 01:51 PM	The boards are up and running. LK, as soon as you make a user I'll give you moderator access to the elven netbook sub-forum.
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 02:48 PM	-We're not allowed to advertise other websites here, but if I were you, I'd send PMs to everyone, and advertise on Candlekeep.
Alediran 01-25-08, 02:52 PM	Corrected, and when I get home I'll post over Candlekeep.
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 02:55 PM	-No, leave that link here. It's relevant to what we're doing, so it's not advertisement, or spam or anything. I was just thinking outloud, 'cause I was going to say to make a thread about the website. :)
Alediran 01-25-08, 03:02 PM	Posted again so everybody can see it. http://www.forgottenrealmsvault.com
Alediran 01-25-08, 04:23 PM	If somebody want to advertise the website in Candlekeep go for it. I'm not that familiar with it's comunity to do it myself. And I still need to do a banner for the links section.
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 04:39 PM	-I don't go there, so...
Alediran 01-25-08, 06:05 PM	I uploaded a community system called PHPNuke for the main page, it has everything we need and more. To see it (we'll need serious design work) use the www.forgottenrealmsvault.com address.
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 03:13 PM	You really need to grab ones of those logos off the CK art page - the site needs a little 'sprucing up', as it were. I used to have a very nice AOL site, until my ex deleted my screename (which also obliterated any pages associated with that name). :( Edit @Alediran: I can login, but then when I try to post a response, it logs me off and tells me to log on, and when I try, it says that my info is wrong (even though it accepts it at the first page).
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 05:58 PM	Edit @Alediran: I can login, but then when I try to post a response, it logs me off and tells me to log on, and when I try, it says that my info is wrong (even though it accepts it at the first page). -I believe the messageboards and the main page are different. The same thing happened to me, but in the opposite order.
Alediran 01-26-08, 07:43 PM	Yes, they are different, the main page has other options, among them a Journal (blog). Don't worry about design, I have a friend that can do a cool logo. Since Vault is one of the words I'll put a chest for the logo. LK: when do you think you can start posting the Elven Netbook in the board section I made for the project? And BTW, tell KtM to register there.
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 11:55 PM	So I have to sign up for BOTH seperately?! :confused: Also, if your going to do a chest, maybe 'borrow' the design off the front of the 3.0 DMG - the 3.5 has a globe on it, but the older one was set-up to look like the front of a locked chest. :D And we'll call them the Not-so Forgotten Realms. :dancin:
Alediran 01-27-08, 11:21 AM	I know, I'm working on integrating both, the front site has a boards system, but it's older than the one I'm using. Thanks for telling me about the chest. I only checked the 3.0 DMG once. MT: if you are interested in hosting your maps on the site it would give us more hits. I also posted a link in Wikipedia under the Forgotten Realms article. If you can, tell people at Candlekeep to, since you know them better. That goes for the Elves of Faerūn pdf when it's finished, I'll put it on the downloads section.
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 11:53 AM	LK: when do you think you can start posting the Elven Netbook in the board section I made for the project? -Either later today, tonight, or tomorrow, I'm gonna start. And BTW, tell KtM to register there. -Sure thing. :)
Alediran 01-27-08, 12:16 PM	The elven netbook will be one of our strong points for increasing the sites's popularity.
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 03:01 PM	I give up. :( I registered on the boards, and finally got the Avatar I wanted to work, and it still won't let me post! I hit 'Submit', and instead of posting my message, it says it's saving it... WTF?! :uh-huh:
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 03:14 PM	I hit 'Submit', and instead of posting my message, it says it's saving it... -Stop hitting 'save' and hit 'submit'. They are two different buttons. ;)
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 04:46 PM	I tried it several times - either my hand-eye coordination is atrocious, or it just doesn't work for me. :(
Alediran 01-27-08, 05:06 PM	It should work for you without problem.