Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Telagaunt 06-17-03, 06:14 PM	I wanted to address this post in the old thread entitled Zaknafien PrC on the old FR General. Savras the All-Seeing Actually, it's +2 to the CR, see the MM. It's +2 to the ECL. Why all drow in FRCS has +2 to CR? A mistake. Savras In FR a race that has an ECL also has that ECL penalty added to his/her CR rating. Check any of the character stats for ECL classes, not just drow. Drow get a +2 to CR because of their ECL 2 penalty, in the MM there is no such thing as ECL and so they do not get one, they just get the simple +1. Also, note as far as general rulebooks are concerned you can't even play a drow. So the rules change a bit for the FR Campaign. I'm not saying ECL and CR are equal either, however, a creature with an ECL also has that number added to their CR. That chart on pg 21 even explains this. A drow at 1st level (Sorcerer lets say) is effectively a 3rd level character making their CR 3. Hell, even the new PC game IWD2 recognizes this, I highly doubt it's a wide misconception. Maybe I just didn't explain it right in my 1st post and you misunderstood me. Anyway, Zak was a Ftr 24th level. Drizzt and he were not of similar skill, just what Zak had put out in their battles between the two of them. If you think about it Drizzt was also only a 10th level Fighter at his last days in Menzoberranzen. Of course Zaknafien held back, if he didn't, Drizzt would be dead.
Selvarin 06-17-03, 07:23 PM	Accordingto official 3E, that may be surmissed concering Drizzt's fighter levels. In the Menzo boxed set it was said he was originally a ftr 18 but all that got to be messy indeed.
Maskanodel 06-17-03, 07:37 PM	For those of you interested, I'll post my Zaknafein when Belwar is finished. Some you wont like it I'm sure, because of his Tempest levels. Anyway, might be awhile because of Finals and the such. PS Still need help with Belwar.
VengefulGazeofGod 06-17-03, 10:46 PM	Tempest is a stupid idea. This is a subject best left allone and in the pit of acid where Drizzt left his father. :cool:
ElGrecoETAC 06-17-03, 11:13 PM	Hey, it's your call, so write him like you want him... But a 24th level Fighter gets more than enough feats to get all the two weapon fighting Feats (to include Perfect). IMO (and that's where it ends), Tempest is not just a guy swinging around two swords really well, but unfortunately until 3.5 comes out, the Ranger and its PrCs will have to suffer serving as token levels for people who want "virtual" feats. :rolleyes: Oh well, to each their own. :)
cwslyclgh 06-17-03, 11:15 PM	I made a drow house weapon master PrC that I posted on Sean's Boards... I could repostit here if anybody is interested.
VengefulGazeofGod 06-18-03, 01:35 AM	Do as you may. And 24th lvl seems alittle high to me. 19th or 20th lvl STRAIGHT fighter seems reasonable to me.
cwslyclgh 06-18-03, 02:35 AM	he is listed in 2e sources as a 24th level fighter.
Monch9 06-18-03, 02:43 AM	Maskanodel, For what it's worth, I ran Zak's stat thru a 2e to 3e character converter. Turns out that the 24th Level Fighter translates to a 17th Level Fighter in 3e. For reference, Drizzt's 2e character was an 18th level Fighter who became a 16th level Ranger (same XP requirements). They both came out as a 16th level character in 3e in the character converter. Monch
cwslyclgh 06-18-03, 02:51 AM	which conversion method? acording to the booklet released with 3e, a single classed character stays the same level that he was.
Monch9 06-18-03, 04:03 AM	I did a search on character conversion from 2e to 3e and came up with this website which has an excel spreadsheet that does the conversion. Short version of the formula, take the number of levels above 15 and divide it by 5. Round up and then add to 15. http://www.geocities.com/nseccombe/dreamlands.htm
cwslyclgh 06-18-03, 04:05 AM	bet it was designed before the epic levbel handbook came out so they could squeeze every one under 20th level ;) here is what the conversion document from WotC has to say about the subject: Level and Experience For single-classed characters, record the character’s current level. You will need to adjust the character’s experience point total to match the new D&D experience system. Characters with more than one class require special handling. •Adjusting Experience Points: All characters in the D&D game use the same experience table. The table is constructed differently from the class experience tables in earlier versions of the game, which makes it necessary to adjust the character’s experience point total. The easiest way to make the adjustment is simply to set the total at some point between the minimum for the character’s current level and the minimum for the next level (we recommend halfway to the next level or the minimum for the current level). If you prefer a more accurate conversion of the character’s experience total, see the Character Troubleshooting section on page 10. • Adjusting Dual -and Multi-classed Characters : The rules for handling a character with more than one class in the new edition of the D&D game are considerably different than in previous editions of the game (see sidebar). Follow these steps to calculate a dual- or multi-classed character’s level: 1. Find the highest level the character has reached in any class. For example, Escolrande is an 8th-level fighter/9th-level wizard/9th-level thief. His highest level is 9. 2. Divide each level the character has achieved in any other class by three and round down. If the result rounds down to 0, record a 1 instead. For example, Escolrande’s remaining levels are 8 and 9; 8 ÷3 = 2.67, which rounds down to 2, and 9 ÷3 = 3. 3. Add the numbers you got in step 2 to the number you got in step 1. This equals the character’s level in the new edition of the D&D game. In Escolrande’s case, 9 + 2 + 3 = 14. 4. You can divide up the levels among classes any way you see fit. For example, Escolrande could become a 9th-level wizard/4th-level rogue/1st-level fighter, or an 8th-level wizard/3rd-level rogue/3rd-level fighter, or any other combination of wizard, rogue, and fighter levels that adds up to 14.
VengefulGazeofGod 06-18-03, 07:06 PM	Well, second edition says he was a twenty-forth level fighter. Well, I say that he's dead and does not need stats. And I would go as far as to say he is twentyth level. If you make him the same level he was before, then Entrari would have to be treated with the same respect, and I believe he was a 17 level fighter/ 24 level rogue. But, I might be wrong by about five levels. Hey, on top of that now he's a Shade, sweet, that's like an ecl of 45. He could out right murder Elminster. :cool:
Telagaunt 06-18-03, 07:14 PM	No. Zak would be some sort of Fighter (maybe Weapon Master, maybe not) of 24th level. Entreri is Drizzt's equal (or close to it), not Zak's or Elminster's. Nor is Entreri a shade. I hate it when people think that. The only indication is that he's a bit pale, at most he'll get a few shade like abilities, I'm guessing either the Fast Healing, or something like Shadesight. Anyway, saying Entreri is a Ftr 17/Rog 24 is like saying that Drizzt was the Rgr 16/Ftr 18. I hate when people do that, in 2e Drizzt was Rgr 16, leave it at that. As for Entreri, in 2e I dont know for a fact what levels they gave him, but giving him the Ftr 17/Rog 24 dual uber classes is ****. It doesn't matter anyway since 2e was ridiculous in most of it's aspects and he and Drizzt are already 3rd Edition ramakes. The question is, we want Zaknafien. And it doesn't matter if Zaknafien is dead. Especially if RAS decides to write some novels about Zak and Jarlaxle (from what I've heard) then it would be perfectly reasonable to write stats for Zak. I mean they have Sylune's stats and she's just a ghost! :D
Maskanodel 06-18-03, 07:51 PM	Heres Zaknafein. Be warned. Its how I see him, you dont have to agree with me. Criticism will be elcomed. Zaknafein Do'Urden: Male Drow Fighter15/Tempest8:CR 25; Medium-size humanoid (elf); HD 23d10+69; hp 210; Init +9; Spd 30ft; AC 24 (touch 14, flat footed 20); Atk +29/+24/+19/+14 melee (1d8+10, 15-20/x2, +5 Keen Longsword ) and +29/+24/+19 melee (1d8+8,15-20/x2,+5 Keen Longsword ) or +29/+24/+19/+14 (1d2, x2, Masterwork Whip) SQ Absolute Ambidexterity, Drow Traits, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Light Blindness, Off-Hand Parry +6, Spell Like Abilities; SR 34; AL CN; SV Fort+22, Ref+16, Will+13; Str 16, Dex 21, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 15, Cha 14. Height 5'3". Skills and Feats: Balance+12, Climb+11, Hide+18, Intimidate+13, Jump+11, Listen+12, Move Silently+18, Spot+7, Tumble+12, Wildreness Lore+7; Ambidexterity, Blind Fight, Dodge, Expertise, Highborn Drow, Exotic Weapon (Whip), Improved Critical (longswords), Improved Initiative, Improved Levitation, Mobilty, Quick Draw, Spring Attack, Twin Sword Style, Two Weapon Fighting,Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword), Whirlwind Attack Absolute Ambidexterity: Beginning at 8th level, the tempest's attack penalties for fighting with two weapons lessen by 2 when she is wearing light armor or no armor. Thus, if she fights with a light weapon in her off hand, she suffers no penalties on her attack rolls for fighting with two weapons. (If the off-hand weapon is not light, she suffers a -2 penalty on attack rolls with both her primary hand and her offhand.) Drow Traits: +2 racial bonus on Will saves againsts spells and spell like abilities, Darkvision 120ft, Light Blindness Greater Two-Weapon Fighting: At 8th level, Zaknafein gained an additional attack with his off-hand weapon when he is wearing light armor or no armor. In addition to the two attacks he already has each round with his off-hand weapon (for improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting) at penalties of 0 and -5, respectively, he is also entitled to a third attack with his off-hand weapon at a -10 penalty . Zaknafein loses this special ability when fighting in medium or heavy armor, or when using a double weapon (such as a two-bladed sword). Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day- Dancing Lights, Darkness, Detect Magic, Detect Good, Faerie Fire, Levitate*. All of Zak's spell-like abilities are cast as a 23rd level sorceror. *Because Zak has the the Improved Levitation feat (Races of Faerun) he can use his levitation in 10 minute intervals. For example, without the feat, Zak could could levitate for 230 minutes a day (10/min per caster level). With the feat, he can levitate 23 times a day, up to ten minutes each time. Possessions: Boots of Elvenkind, +4 Elven Chainmail, +5 Keen Adamantine Longswords x2, +4 Piwafwi of Resistance (+4 to all saving throws, +10 Hide), Masterwork Whip .
Telagaunt 06-18-03, 08:49 PM	Not bad. I still would think he'd get something like Perfect Two-Weapon, or maybe even Two-Weapon Rend. But I could see him that way... Maybe an Improved Trip feat though... And I dont like how his Int is 'low'. I know his 2e stats were like that, I could see Wisdom being around there, but he seemed pretty Intelligent to me, more so than what Drizzt is now.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 06-18-03, 08:54 PM	Not bad! :cool: :cool: :cool: I'll have a very thorough perusal of this.
ikki 06-18-03, 09:45 PM	it was his swords that had the perfect 2-weapon fighting power. +5 btw, black adamant longswords.
Maskanodel 06-18-03, 10:01 PM	I gave him +5 Keen Adamantine Longswords.
ElGrecoETAC 06-18-03, 10:52 PM	Actually, Entreri was a level 11 thief, level 15 fighter in the 2E Villains' Lorebook. According to WoTC conversion rules, you would divide 11 (his lower class) by 3, round down the result, and thus get a total of 18 (15+3) levels. Same as today's Entreri (though split up in different classes). The writeup posted on Zak is very well done, but I still have to ask (respectfully, and with no hostile over- or undertones) how the Tempest fits, other than metagaming-wise. A 24th level fighter has more than enough feat choices to go all the way to Perfect Two Weapon Fighting (unless I'm forgetting something), and more than a couple of the advanced Critical feats. Put simply, there are some book characters who do things that just shout out "PRESTIGE CLASS" to you--Danilo Thann being a Spellsinger, for example. In this case, though, I was under the impression that Zak was "just" a fighter par excellence--a master of weapons and battle strategy altogether, not a narrow specialist of the two-sword way. Just my opinion, though!
Maskanodel 06-18-03, 11:04 PM	Originally posted by ElGrecoETAC The writeup posted on Zak is very well done, but I still have to ask (respectfully, and with no hostile over- or undertones) how the Tempest fits, other than metagaming-wise. A 24th level fighter has more than enough feat choices to go all the way to Perfect Two Weapon Fighting (unless I'm forgetting something), and more than a couple of the advanced Critical feats. Put simply, there are some book characters who do things that just shout out "PRESTIGE CLASS" to you--Danilo Thann being a Spellsinger, for example. In this case, though, I was under the impression that Zak was "just" a fighter par excellence--a master of weapons and battle strategy altogether, not a narrow specialist of the two-sword way. Just my opinion, though! I thank you for your critcism ElGreco and yours is the exact type of criticism I was looking for.:bow: You bring up several good points in your post and I have thought all of these over carefully. But as I said, this is my vision of Zaknafein. Thankfully everyone has their own and deserves their own opinion. Again I thank you. PS I'll try to get Belwar up soon. Maybe I should do zin-carla Zak too. :angel:
VengefulGazeofGod 06-19-03, 12:12 AM	[EDITED by WizO Gaelin] You short changed him one level. :cool: Let's keep the criticism constructive in nature please, harrassment will not be tolerated. - WizO Gaelin
VengefulGazeofGod 06-20-03, 03:09 AM	Wee, my post got edited! Gaelin, I didn't know you cared! And, sorry about that, the frostaration(sp?) got the better of me. :cool:
KaeYoss 06-20-03, 08:23 AM	Personally, I'd say Zak was Figher/Weapons Master or just plain fighter. Originally posted by Telagaunt In FR a race that has an ECL also has that ECL penalty added to his/her CR rating. Check any of the character stats for ECL classes, not just drow. Drow get a +2 to CR because of their ECL 2 penalty No. CR adjustment and Level Adjustment aren't the same. Drow have CR +1 and ECL +2.
Telagaunt 06-20-03, 12:47 PM	Again I say that's for general gaming purposes. Not so in the Forgotten Realms campaign. Look at Greyhawk, that drow Eclavadra in the ELH doesn't have any bonus to CR. Look at any race with a ECL, they have that ECL added onto CR aswell. I'm not saying it's the same, just that it effects it by the same number. Another example is every monster listed on pg 288 Table 8-1 in the FRCS. A challenge rating is determined by a character's level adjustment, ECL affects their level adjustment...it adjusts their level. Furthermore, if you want to get into even more, if drow did get a +1, Drizzt and Entreri wouldn't be equal :D :smirk:
KaeYoss 06-20-03, 01:15 PM	Look at Faiths and Pantheons, page 182, the Test of Lolth sidebar, right side, : ...since drow have an CR of "class level +1" City of the Spider Queen also adds +1 to the CR's. I think the Characters from the FRCS got the ECL instead of the CR adjustment because they're meant to be more than just NPC's
Telagaunt 06-20-03, 03:30 PM	Ooh you didn't think of them as playing character's maybe? I always do because if you think about it, they are an author's PC. And they usually are a bit different then your average drow encounter.
KaeYoss 06-20-03, 04:49 PM	That's what I think. And that's why they get the ECL there, I think, even though they label it "CR"
VengefulGazeofGod 06-20-03, 04:57 PM	Challenge rating and effective character level are in no way similar. ECL is used to determine how much more powerful a thing is compared to a standard character, how much slower it levels up. CR is used to determine how much experience one would gain from killing one of said race. :cool:
Telagaunt 06-20-03, 05:01 PM	Yeah. Although I do think it'd make a little sense to just add that ECL penalty to CR aswell, for NPC and PC's. I mean they level up and gain experience slower, because they're tougher races, wouldn't it make sense that because they're stronger their challenge rating would go up?
KaeYoss 06-20-03, 05:16 PM	You don't need to add the ECL modifier to CR: These races have a CR modifier, which represents their power as an enemy. The ECL modifier, on the other hand, represents their power as a player character. Some things are of no consequence when they're used by an enemy, because he's only on-stage for a couple of rounds, but a PC is there all the time. It is no great difference whether the enemy has some spell-like 3/day or at will, but it does if it's a player who has said spell-like ability.
Straploknight 06-21-03, 09:31 PM	My version of Zak... Zaknafein Do'Urden, male drow, fighter 24; CR 26; Medium-sized humaniod (elf); HD 24d10+72; HP 178; Init +8; Spd 30 ft.; AC 23 (touch 14, flat-footed 19); Atk +28/+23/+18/+13 melee (1d8+13, 17-20/x2), +28/+23 melee (1d8+12, 17-20/x2); SQ Drow traits, Light blindness, Spell-like abilities; SR 35; AL CN; SV Fort +17, Ref +12, Will +10; Str 15 Dex 19 Con 16 Int 15 Wis 15 Cha 14 Feats: Combat Reflxes, Dodge, Highborn Drow, Improved Levitation, Mobility, Power Critical, Quick Draw, Spring Attack, Twin Sword Style Bonus Fighter Feats: Ambidexterity, Blind-Fight, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization, Expertise, Improved Critical, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Rend, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization Equipment: Long sword +5 (x2), Chain shirt +5 If i've read epic focus and epic specialization right, then they stack with weapon focus and weapon specialization. Which Zak would definetly need since he uses two long swords and the penalty even with the ambi and two weapon fighting feats is a -4 (ouch) and I didn't add in any ability points since those were his stats at the time of his death (which I pulled from the villans lorebook) Since drow are an ECL race I was able to get in an extra epic feat (for a total of three despite him being only 24th level).
Maskanodel 06-21-03, 09:44 PM	Nice job, Straploknight. I never really put much thought into Epic Feats (didn't own the ELH at the time) when I created my Zak. I still prefer my version but as they say, to each their own.
Straploknight 06-21-03, 09:59 PM	Ditto If Zak used only 1 long sword, his bab with the +5 sword would go right up to +32/+27/+22/+17 (1d8+13, 17-20/x2) Some place somebody asked who the best fighter in the realms is, unfortunately the late Zak would get his behind handed to him by Shuruppak :sad:
Saasiel 06-22-03, 12:32 AM	I just noticed this... Zak cannot possibly possess the Highborn Drow feat. He is not a noble, merely a commoner elevated to noble status.
Telagaunt 06-22-03, 12:46 AM	Why did you give him 13 feats? Shouldn't he have 20?
Straploknight 06-22-03, 02:03 AM	Originally posted by Saasiel I just noticed this... Zak cannot possibly possess the Highborn Drow feat. He is not a noble, merely a commoner elevated to noble status. The prereqs are drow and will save +2 So a drow fighter 6th level and above has access to the highborn feat. Or you can take aristocrat, bard, cleric, druid, monk, sorcerer, and wizard to get the feat at first level. Originally posted by Telagaunt Why did you give him 13 feats? Shouldn't he have 20? Zak gets a total of 22 feats, count them they are there. 13 bonus fighter feats and 9 regular feats next...
Telagaunt 06-22-03, 10:26 AM	Yeah I forgot about the ones at 20th and 22nd level. But it still doesn't explain why there are only 13 there. Unless I missed something.
Straploknight 06-22-03, 06:45 PM	His total feats are there 7 character feats + 11 bonus fighter feats +2 epic level feats+2 epic bonus fighter feats = 22 The epic character feat slots (which is probably a better term) are seperated from the bonus fighter feat slots. I did this for clarity on my part. Also you'll notice that my Zak only has three actual epic level feats rather than four (epic focus, epic specialization, and two-weapon rend). I do not however have any skills listed in my stats.
Saasiel 06-22-03, 10:26 PM	I repeat: Zaknafein does not possess the Highborn Drow feat!
Maskanodel 06-22-03, 10:40 PM	Sorry double post.
Maskanodel 06-22-03, 10:44 PM	Originally posted by Saasiel I repeat: Zaknafein does not possess the Highborn Drow feat! Why? Because he wasn't born a noble? I guess that kind of makes sense if your just looking at the feats name (Highborn Drow). I guess a better name would've "Noble Drow". Zaknafein technically was a noble as the former consort of Matron Malice and the Weapon Master of House Do'Urden.
Straploknight 06-22-03, 10:50 PM	As best I can remeber...Zak could levitate. He had tobe able to, the Do'Urden compound was set up that way so only noble drow could enter the house proper. anywhosit, check your sources, on page 120 of the Villian's Lorebook, Zak does inded have levitation villian's lorebook DL (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/downloads) As the prereq's state, one does not have to be a "noble" born drow elf. The highborn feat is available to any drow of sufficient level to have a base will save of +2 or better Here is a list of classes and what level it is available. NPC Adept = 1st level Aristocrat = 1st level (d'oh) Commoner = 6th level Expert = 1st level Warrior = 6th level PC Barbarian = 6th level Bard = 1st level Cleric = 1st level Druid = 1st level Fighter = 6th level Monk = 1st level Paladin = 6th level :razz: Ranger = 6th level Rogue = 6th level Sorcerer = 1st level Wizard = 1st level Psion = 1st level Psychic Warrior = 6th level Ergo, Zak could have been trained to develop the advanced powers at 6th level or above
Monch9 06-23-03, 04:47 AM	Straploknight, I would have to change some of the feats. He must be given some major proficiencies on using the whip. Remember in his first appearance, he cleaned up the cabal of priest using his whip and sword. Monch
Straploknight 06-23-03, 09:33 AM	I've been giving that some thought, when 3.5 comes out and if they drop ambi, it could be replaced with finesse (which isn' t weapon specific from what I understand in 3.5). I've never read much about a whip, but if you can finesse it, then his dex would help take care of that. So for the whip thing, finesse + improved critical +power critical = 1 priestess - 1 tongue before she could fire off a spell :) Maybe drop improved disarm for improved critical n the whip?