Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bgardner_1971 04-16-08, 03:01 PM	Dalelands Adventure #1 The Prospect The Fall of Stars is the most famous adventurers' club in Faerûn. Who can say no when offered membership in the Stellar Fellowship, for a mere errand? But of course, things are never that simple. A Living Forgotten Realms adventure set in the Dalelands for characters levels 1-4. Waterdeep Adventure #1 Heirloom An old tutor asks the adventurers to recover a stolen family heirloom for a "down-on-their-luck" Waterdhavian noble family. A Living Forgotten Realms adventure set in Waterdeep for characters levels 1-4.
WotC_Tulach 04-20-08, 06:59 PM	We'll have all of the adventure descriptions for the 1st wave of adventures (stuff premiering in August and September) on our website by the end of April.
Wick 04-21-08, 06:52 PM	We'll have all of the adventure descriptions for the 1st wave of adventures (stuff premiering in August and September) on our website by the end of April. This is great to know... I am wanting to play an event for late Sept. and was wondering about when info will be available.
NiTessine 04-22-08, 06:56 PM	Just out of curiosity, will the names of the writers be also announced at some point in the future? I expect these were done by the writing directors of their respective regions, but it seems an odd omission.
Keith53 04-22-08, 09:24 PM	Just out of curiosity, will the names of the writers be also announced at some point in the future? I expect these were done by the writing directors of their respective regions, but it seems an odd omission. I suspect the omission was just happenstance or perhaps was not thought to be news worthy. Claire and I are writing the Waterdeep adventure. I think in most cases, the regional Writing Director is authoring the first adventure, possibly the second, because of restrictions and the timeline. The names will certainly be on the title page of the adventures, and I think the RPGA will continue to include the author name in its adventure library. Keith
cellout23 05-01-08, 02:26 PM	We'll have all of the adventure descriptions for the 1st wave of adventures (stuff premiering in August and September) on our website by the end of April. IT's MAY 1st. Where are the adventure descriptions? :confused:
WotC_Tulach 05-04-08, 07:08 AM	We had some technical issues last week with regards to posting the information. It will be up this week, along with some other often-requested information.
cellout23 05-13-08, 09:39 AM	When can we expect this ":mad: Issue :mad: " to be resolved?
WotC_Tulach 05-13-08, 03:46 PM	When can we expect this ":mad: Issue :mad: " to be resolved? I'm working on it. However, I really don't see the reason for impatience, since it's still 3 months before any adventures will be playable, and the campaign standards/character creation rules won't be out until July at the earliest.
asoka 05-13-08, 04:25 PM	Perhaps it's not so much impatience as a desire to see the RPGA Represented well. A desire to see that promises or assurances made to the membership in open forums is actually adhered to. There's nothing wrong with membership expecting that due dates and the like will be adhered to - otherwise why should they expect that /any/ date will be adhered to? There's also nothing wrong with the organizers of the RPGA being late in fulfilling delivery dates that no one set but themselves - but it looks poor if that date comes and goes and no one in the Org gives any reason or notice. I would presume that it is not a surprise to those responsible that the date would be missed, so why not come on the forum and say "Hey, we're running behind, we've pushed the date back to X. Sorry bout that". Such things go along way towards helping the customer feel like they are being taken seriously. Hopefully that answer helps as to why we're "impatient".
BrevonDarksteel 05-13-08, 04:45 PM	Perhaps it's not so much impatience as a desire to see the RPGA Represented well. A desire to see that promises or assurances made to the membership in open forums is actually adhered to. There's nothing wrong with membership expecting that due dates and the like will be adhered to - otherwise why should they expect that /any/ date will be adhered to? There's also nothing wrong with the organizers of the RPGA being late in fulfilling delivery dates that no one set but themselves - but it looks poor if that date comes and goes and no one in the Org gives any reason or notice. I would presume that it is not a surprise to those responsible that the date would be missed, so why not come on the forum and say "Hey, we're running behind, we've pushed the date back to X. Sorry bout that". Such things go along way towards helping the customer feel like they are being taken seriously. Hopefully that answer helps as to why we're "impatient". Wow, well said asoka. Communication has been the main point of most of my disagreements here. Just keep us informed as dates slip or are missed. I think you'll find most of us can be sympathetic if an appropriate reason is given or at least if you've attempted to explain a delay. The main thing I'm interested in those blurbs about, is that they represent the ability to submit events to GenCon for the Living FR's games. No details are needed for the submission of events, and yet you're talking like you don't have to have anything ready to run until 3 months from now. Isn't it beneficial to have the blurbs ready for event submission at GC so people can complete their registration process and finalize their vacation/travel plans?
dkay807 05-13-08, 05:16 PM	Perhaps it's not so much impatience as a desire to see the RPGA Represented well. A desire to see that promises or assurances made to the membership in open forums is actually adhered to. There's nothing wrong with membership expecting that due dates and the like will be adhered to - otherwise why should they expect that /any/ date will be adhered to? There's also nothing wrong with the organizers of the RPGA being late in fulfilling delivery dates that no one set but themselves - but it looks poor if that date comes and goes and no one in the Org gives any reason or notice. I would presume that it is not a surprise to those responsible that the date would be missed, so why not come on the forum and say "Hey, we're running behind, we've pushed the date back to X. Sorry bout that". Such things go along way towards helping the customer feel like they are being taken seriously. Hopefully that answer helps as to why we're "impatient". I also have to agree here. Adherence to due dates is definitely the largest growth area for the RPGA's administration team (including but not limited to you, Chris). What I think adds to the frustration level is the fact that you guys set those due dates yourselves and rarely meet them. I understand that regardless of whether or not there have been any "technical" difficulties with posting some adventure blurbs, that task has likely been delayed due to prioritization (I agree that it's likely not a high priority right now compared to everything else that must be in the works). However, the RPGA has a track record of delivering way past promised dates (especially lately) on far more significant tasks and I think the impatience that we're all witnessing can be attributed in large part to the concerns that many people have expressed about just how smooth the launch of LFR will be. It's clear that MANY people are excited about this new campaign and this new system, and with the Gen Con LLC Chapter 11 filing, the delay in event submissions to Gen Con Indy (which goes hand-in-hand with the former), and the RPGA's poor track record of timely delivery, I have no doubt that a large portion of those people are concerned. In short, I'd say that until things begin to run significantly more smoothly, it's only fair that perceived impatience on the part of the RPGA gaming community is not only overlooked, but also excused by administration.
Surgebuster 05-13-08, 07:16 PM	I also have to agree here. Adherence to due dates is definitely the largest growth area for the RPGA's administration team (including but not limited to you, Chris). What I think adds to the frustration level is the fact that you guys set those due dates yourselves and rarely meet them. I agree with you Dave, in respects to rpga campaign staff missing dates set by themselves. That is an area where there is plenty of scope to grow. I think it's important to note, however, that the realistic alternative to this is that no dates for these kind of things are set and the player base just has to deal with it. I've *never* seen Chris miss a hard deadline and the 'promises' that he has made have, by-and large, been more in the area of 'should be' and 'hopefully' than 'definitely will be'. As a general comment (and not a response to anyone specifically), I would hope there is a realisation that the campaign staff are working on the genuinely important stuff, rather than spending that time chasing down and screaming at I.T. personnel who have these 'promises' on their to-do list. Joe Fitzgerald Event Manager Dragon Coast P.S. Dr. Joe recommends ratcheting down on hyberbole and emoticons in your posts for a full, healthy and happy life.
BrevonDarksteel 05-13-08, 07:33 PM	I agree with you Dave, in respects to rpga campaign staff missing dates set by themselves. That is an area where there is plenty of scope to grow. I think it's important to note, however, that the realistic alternative to this is that no dates for these kind of things are set and the player base just has to deal with it. I've *never* seen Chris miss a hard deadline and the 'promises' that he has made have, by-and large, been more in the area of 'should be' and 'hopefully' than 'definitely will be'. As a general comment (and not a response to anyone specifically), I would hope there is a realisation that the campaign staff are working on the genuinely important stuff, rather than spending that time chasing down and screaming at I.T. personnel who have these 'promises' on their to-do list. Joe Fitzgerald Event Manager Dragon Coast P.S. Dr. Joe recommends ratcheting down on hyberbole and emoticons in your posts for a full, healthy and happy life. Huh?? All or nothing? No one here has demanded that the material 'actually' be available. We'd like that, but work is work...and I'm fully confident they are doing everything they can to make it happen. The concern is that in making soft or hard claims on availability of material, there is no follow through to communicate the outcome of that work. Chris said "It will be available next week...". Why not come here and say..."Well its next week, and I guess I was wrong...I hope to have this info available soon. Thanks for your patience" Rather than asking us why we're impatient about the material when he set the date and made us think it would be forthcoming? Right now GenCon is waiting on those blurbs. People who pre-registered for events at GenCon and secured hotel rooms with a credit card are waiting on those blurbs. People who believed the WotC website that 4E would be at GC and bout overpriced plane tickets are waiting on those blurbs. People who are counting on a volunteer judges badge to be able to go to GC this year are waiting on those blurbs. I think you get the idea. That's what we're impatient for....information that can help validate the expenses we made for your product. Chris' response does not fill me with confidence that I invested my money wisely at this point...
Keith53 05-13-08, 09:37 PM	While I realize the RPGA has not always had a record of on-time delivery, they are making a tremendous effort with LFR to change that for the adventures while raising the quality of the adventures as well. The Writing Directors have an incentive to meet deadlines; they get a bonus 5th adventure each year (2008-2009 counts as one year). Trust me, all of us want that bonus adventure. Will everyone meet their deadlines? Don't know but I do know all campaign admins will be trying really, really hard. Whether or not you have as much visibility and communication as everyone might like, progress on LFR adventures is being made. The first wave will be released in the August-September "quarter," the second wave in the October-December quarter and so forth. Keith
smerwin29 05-13-08, 10:05 PM	The adventure 1 (and adventure 2) blurbs are done, approved, and ready to roll. Some of them, as shown in the first post of this thread, have been released already on local forums. As Chris said, things outside of his (and the RPGA's) control sometimes crop up. While I wish it wasn't the case that the RPGA is sometimes beholden to concerns and procedures of WotC and/or Hasbro, such is the nature of the beast. Communication can be that beast when you don't control the means of communication, or when you are specifically forbidden to communicate. If anyone has questions, they can always post them here, and the rest of the LFR staff and I will make every attempt to answer to the best of our abilities. Thanks, Shawn LFR Global Admin
stonebasher 05-14-08, 09:39 AM	[QUOTE= If anyone has questions, they can always post them here, and the rest of the LFR staff and I will make every attempt to answer to the best of our abilities. Thanks, Shawn LFR Global Admin[/QUOTE] What is the answer to life, the universe, and everything? Wes
smerwin29 05-14-08, 10:52 AM	What is the answer to life, the universe, and everything? Wes What is 7 x 6?
tombollis 05-14-08, 12:20 PM	What is the answer to life, the universe, and everything? Life, the universe, and everything.
tomjscott 05-14-08, 12:42 PM	Here are some blurbs that were posted on the LFR Yahoo group today by Bill Benham: Available August: RIFT-1 These Hallowed Halls By Bill Benham The Crafty Kobold Salvage Company has fearlessly plumbed forgotten treasures from the depths of the earth for many years. Now the owner's son has gone missing and he needs adventurers of uncommon mettle to brave the dangers of the Underdark, find the lost explorers, and perhaps even unlock the ancient secrets of Lodestone Deep. A LIVING FORGOTTEN REALMS adventure for 1st to 4th level characters. RIFT-2 Gnoll Place Like Home By Mike Rizzo Gnolls swarm across the river, over the palisades, and into the dusty streets of a halfling settlement on the edge of the Eastern Shaar. Hapless hin and their hurbryn neighbors cry out for protection from these marauding dogs. Why are the gnolls attacking this backwater in such numbers tonight? Who is the real leader of the pack? A LIVING FORGOTTEN REALMS adventure for characters of 4th to 7th level.
RedKnightofKet 05-14-08, 06:57 PM	What is the answer to life, the universe, and everything? Wes What is 7 x 6? It's actually what is 6 times 9 (base 13!)
hunter_gather 05-14-08, 10:27 PM	Here are some blurbs that were posted on the LFR Yahoo group today by Bill Benham: Available August: RIFT-1 These Hallowed Halls By Bill Benham The Crafty Kobold Salvage Company has fearlessly plumbed forgotten treasures from the depths of the earth for many years. Now the owner's son has gone missing and he needs adventurers of uncommon mettle to brave the dangers of the Underdark, find the lost explorers, and perhaps even unlock the ancient secrets of Lodestone Deep. A LIVING FORGOTTEN REALMS adventure for 1st to 4th level characters. RIFT-2 Gnoll Place Like Home By Mike Rizzo Gnolls swarm across the river, over the palisades, and into the dusty streets of a halfling settlement on the edge of the Eastern Shaar. Hapless hin and their hurbryn neighbors cry out for protection from these marauding dogs. Why are the gnolls attacking this backwater in such numbers tonight? Who is the real leader of the pack? A LIVING FORGOTTEN REALMS adventure for characters of 4th to 7th level. Do they really expect people to be 4th lrvrl by RIFT-2? Seems rather odd for a 2nd area adventure. Its almost like theyre requiring you to venture outside your region. Unless youre getting WAY more exp per adventure.
Keith53 05-14-08, 11:42 PM	Waterdeep Adventure 2 Dark Secrets of Downshadow Adventurers are the only hope of a servant who seeks her missing brother. Will the heroes be in time to save the boy and best the villains? A Living Forgotten Realms adventure set in Waterdeep for characters levels 4-7. (to be released sometime in October - December 2007 period) To help answer the question about 4th level: LFR will have on the order of 15 adventures (12 regionals, 3 cores) each quarter, plus specials, quest, adaptables, and whatever else might not yet be announced. Mr Tulach stated at DDXP, that he estimated 25-30 adventures would take a character from 1st level to 11th level (Paragon Tier). A little math suggests that with 15 adventures, that will easily get one character above 4th level, maybe a second character although not as certain. Don't know that this trend will march all the way through Paragon and Epic Tiers -- to be determined. Keith
MatteBlack 05-15-08, 12:55 AM	I wonder what only offering adventures at one level range will mean as far as table composition rules. If you have to be one of those levels to play the mod, it could get awkward if a play group get's stretched over 3 levels.
tombollis 05-15-08, 06:35 AM	Waterdeep Adventure 2 I can see why the intro adventures allow PCs up to level 4m but not why they cut of there rather than level 5 or level 6. I don't understand why the 2nd adventure is for levels 4-7. Why not support lower levels as well? Why make it so difficult for a character to be played entirely within a single region, if that is what a player wishes? Is it so difficult to design an adventure for more than a 4 level range of PCs, adjustable for the average level at the table? How many PCs per table will be supported, and how will the difficulty relate to the actual levels and number of PCs at the table?
Surgebuster 05-15-08, 07:28 AM	The Dragon Coast Adventure blurbs: DRAG-01 Many Hands Make Light Work by Bruce Paris Westgate is a dangerous city at any time, but today it’s about to live up to its name. Today, a band of pious Sisters have arrived in your precinct and they need a little help with renovations and … removals. A Living Forgotten Realms adventure set in the Dragon Coast for character levels 1-4. DRAG-02 The Thin Gray Line by Joe Fitzgerald Shady people making even shadier deals are commonplace in the docks district of Westgate. Locals have learnt that siding with the lesser of many evils is the only way to scratch out a living, but when a new chief sergeant upsets the delicate balance of power, the fallout threatens to affect the entire docks district. A Living Forgotten Realms adventure set in the Dragon Coast for character levels 4-7.
The_Jester 05-15-08, 12:16 PM	To help answer the question about 4th level: LFR will have on the order of 15 adventures (12 regionals, 3 cores) each quarter, plus specials, quest, adaptables, and whatever else might not yet be announced. Mr Tulach stated at DDXP, that he estimated 25-30 adventures would take a character from 1st level to 11th level (Paragon Tier). A little math suggests that with 15 adventures, that will easily get one character above 4th level, maybe a second character although not as certain. Don't know that this trend will march all the way through Paragon and Epic Tiers -- to be determined. That's... okay, no offense here and nothing personal, but that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. So you have to play EVERY released module with a single character to even play the second quarter's worth of adventures? I really hope there's going to be an announcement advising people NOT to start alts otherwise they won't be able to play. Or announce to people to get involved fast because if they try to jump in later they won't be able to play. Remember all the fuss in the TU thread about people needed to make alts so they can play with lower level tables? I mean, my god, the level range is 4-7. Does the second string of adventures really need to be playable by 7th level PCs? Couldn't it have been 3-6? I can just imagine the new people trying to get in and being told to come back with a 4th level PC, or finding out everyone had already played all the low-level mods. What happens if you die? I believe the general teasers are if you die at the paragon level you're brought back but at heroic you just make up a new character. If you die in LFR and have to start again you likely won't be able to play the second set of adventures. Okay, let's do some math. 4 encounters per mod (based on LG which is a good bench for time restraints) so that's a total of 100 encounters in 25 mods. The economy article seems to suggest 10 encounters/level. So you level every 2 1/2 mods. So you should hit 4 in 10 mods. So if you die in mod 5 or less you're fine, your new characters should still be able to hit 4. If you die after mod 5 then just take a break for three months and hope that the next set of mods won't be 7-10 (which they almost certainty will be). Of course, if the advancement rate remains constant then you hit 8 in 20 mods or halfway through the second set. If you never died you might even have a level 2 alt. Of course neither character can play the remaining 5 mods.
smerwin29 05-15-08, 12:31 PM	At the start of the campaign, there will be 17 rounds worth of adventures (and most likely a few more rounds) covering levels 1-4 . Those will be available to play for at least 3 years. Although this is just an estimation, I would say you can reach 4th level by playing about 7 of those rounds. So you could get 2 characters to level 5, at least, if you play all of them. If you don't get a character to 4th level before the second set to adventures becomes available, you can play the first set until you have a character at least 4th level. They are still going to be available. As time goes on, there will be a mix of new adventures covering various levels. For people who play everything as soon as it comes out, you can have a variety of characters, and you will always be ready to play the latest one. For people who just want to play occasionally, you will always have something to play.
Cpttylorx 05-15-08, 01:21 PM	As long as you give me a mindbender base class I shall love you forever 4e LFR >.> Skip
Keith53 05-15-08, 04:55 PM	As Shawn indicated, if one PC plays 7-8 adventures (and assuming they don't fail), that PC should gain 3 levels. That means a first level PC advances to a 4th level PC, which means that PC would be able to play any of the second wave of LFR adventures. (It also means later that a 4th level PC advances to a 7th level PC.) Like Shawn said, there will be a LOT of play opportunities so advancing two PCs is possible. In 2009, the regions will likely add more adventures in Heroic Tier, making the advancement of more PCs possible. Since the adventures are available for three years, gamers who join the campaign later can still have opportunities to advance their PCs. The one approach which will have a problem is if a player wants to have a specific PC just for play in one region only; that will probably be unworkable with the current schema. Remember, LFR is not really a regional campaign the way LG was, but regional adventures available globally. We can't be specific about PC death in 4E (as covered by our NDA), but I recommend not to be concerned. Keith
NiTessine 05-16-08, 02:28 AM	We can't be specific about PC death in 4E (as covered by our NDA), but I recommend not to be concerned. Keith Every adventure area will have a respawn point? Softballing is written right into the module? No permanent character death? No offence, man, but statements like this worry me.
gomeztoo 05-16-08, 02:35 AM	The one approach which will have a problem is if a player wants to have a specific PC just for play in one region only; that will probably be unworkable with the current schema. Remember, LFR is not really a regional campaign the way LG was, but reigonal adventures available globally. It is still a 'point of light' campaign, where travel is difficult. Basically forcing PCs to travel the whole world in order to level so they can play the next regional breaks that idea, eliminates regional attachment, and stretches the suspension of disbelief some people still like to have for their game. I.e. I intend to play one character in the visicinity of Luruar (likely including Sword coast region), and one near the south/east Sea of Fallen Stars. It makes little sense to have them adventure on the other side of the world - there *should* be enough in their own part of the world. I may even decide to not adventure in certain regions at all, and save them for later play. I will essentally need a bit more than the regional scenarios to advance my character so I can play the second adventure in my home region. I am sure we will do our best to also please players who wish to play in that way. Gomez
Surgebuster 05-16-08, 02:48 AM	Every adventure area will have a respawn point? Softballing is written right into the module? No permanent character death? No offence, man, but statements like this worry me. No offense, but speculating and extrapolating the intent from a deliberately non-specific statement worries me. ;)
NiTessine 05-16-08, 04:10 AM	No offense, but speculating and extrapolating the intent from a deliberately non-specific statement worries me. ;)See, whenever someone tells me that he can't go into specifics but I shouldn't be worried, the exact opposite happens. The_Jester there had a decent point built upon available information. He referred to the previews about character death and experience rewards. Shawn and Keith went on to clarify the expected character progression, but Keith felt necessary to append a small mention about character death. To me, this immediately suggests that it's different from the 4E default assumption - indeed, The_Jester seemed worried about it and Keith told him not to worry. It then follows that it must be something else. What? No idea. Speculation ensues. Also, I've got the most boring job ever and I'll be stuck here for hours.
Keith53 05-16-08, 10:07 AM	Please don't extrapolate or speculate from what I didn't say about character death in 4E. My comment was narrowly focused on character advancement in LFR, trying to reassure folks the LFR level advancement schema is good. Reminder: In 3 weeks (21 days) from today, the 4E rulebooks will be available in stores and gamers will be finding out for themselves details of that edition of D&D. Keith
NiTessine 05-16-08, 11:20 AM	You had a really conspicuous way of not saying it. The reaction is very interesting, too. Really, you can't stop human curiosity, and you should know that. Trying just makes people even more curious. This is much like the case of a playtester who's directly asked if he's a playtester. He has three options. First, he can just lie and deny everything, which isn't really honest. Two, he can admit it and break NDA, which isn't good, either. The third option, and one that I think most playtesters would resort to, is a glib answer along the lines of "I can neither confirm or deny that" - and everyone will know he's a playtester, because nobody else would answer like that. The lesson is that you can figure out a lot based on how someone doesn't tell you something. You can learn even more from their reaction when you prod them about it. I do admit to being deliberately provocative, but the results have been most enlightening. However, if I have offended, I apologise.
smerwin29 05-16-08, 11:55 AM	It's not offensive, but it is counterproductive. See, the complaints on the board repeatedly state that the campaign staff needs to communicate more and better. So we come onto the lists and try to be as helpful and communicative as possible without jeopardizing our positions as campaign staff. Most people are able to restrain themselves and are appreciative of those efforts, and I am grateful for their patience and understanding. However, for our efforts, we also get from an unappreciate few the following: A) People who deliberately try to provoke us into slipping up. B) People who take the information we can give and turn that information into negative rants based on specualtion because of things we can't say. C) People who rant regardless of what we say. It is not witty, it is not helpful, it is transparent, and it is not in the least bit funny. The more it happens, the less likely future communication will occur. If people want forums like this to be the conduit of valuable information that they seem to want them to be, then they have to understand that all the participants need to use them responsibly--not just the ones providing the information. Someone was worried that character death might overly hinder advancement within the level spread for adventures. An administrator answered to the best of his ability that such a concern was recognized by the campaign and is being dealt with in a way that shouldn't cause undue problems. The extremely unjustified and highly negative reaction of "softballing automatically written into the adventures" and other complaints does nothing but lead to potential rumors and negavity toward the campaign--when the Core rules are still weeks away from release. It can be called "probing for information," but I call it a blatant attempt to sabotage the campaign before it even gets started. Speculation is one thing, but speculating with such a negative and descructive agenda can breed nothing but negativity and destruction. Enlightment at that cost might seem worthwhile to some--but I hope not for a majority of list participants. Shawn LFR Global Admin
Vamroc 05-16-08, 01:09 PM	"Every adventure area will have a respawn point?" If this is going to become Halo than I call shot gun on the SCARAB TANK and don't be one of those jerks that go to the respawn point and wait so they can stab a plasma sword in the back of the red player.
NiTessine 05-16-08, 01:30 PM	Shawn, could we please have a sense of perspective about these things? "Sabotage"? "Destructive agenda"? Take off the tinfoil hat, switch to decaf and lighten up. Presently, you're hurting the campaign more than I ever could.
smerwin29 05-16-08, 01:39 PM	Answered offlist.
The_Jester 05-16-08, 01:49 PM	Someone was worried that character death might overly hinder advancement within the level spread for adventures. An administrator answered to the best of his ability that such a concern was recognized by the campaign and is being dealt with in a way that shouldn't cause undue problems. And I for one am satisfied. My question was fully addressed in that the campaign staff reassured us that it will be possible to get one (and possibly two) characters high enough to play the second set of adventures. And that death (using either or both the D&D rules and LFR standards) is being worked will not prevent someone from being cut out of the gameplay because of death. Anyone who's seen me post here before knows I am more the willing to unload if I think its necessary, but I do feel this possible point of concern has been preemptively dealt with and I give the staff kudos.
smerwin29 05-16-08, 02:22 PM	Thanks. As I've stated before, I have no problem with questions and concerns about something in the campaign. We will do our best to address those both in a prompt and thorough manner--that is within our capabilities. Shawn LFR Global Admin
Fsi-Dib 05-16-08, 02:54 PM	Now, even as it seems like a touchy subject to begin with, it might be healthy to poke (unlike some normal inflammation.) Answering to speculation, even provocative, with an aggressive and hostile tone often suggests the speculation of a secret information is close to truth. Personally I'm not a man of speculation; I prefer to see the final product before judgment. And this is but a mere forum post! This could never be considered sabotage! It'd need to be a popular blog read by thousands of roleplayers. Never should one forget that he or she can never please everyone. And as said before, humans are a curious lot. Why else would there be previews? Ever tried to say a kid "You can't have this never ever ever"? Well, of course this kid will pursue to have it! Conclusion: Telling "I can't tell you" sparks curiosity, and makes people go "I wonder what it is", and make up their own version of it. Ah, the human nature, such a wonder.
Nutation 05-16-08, 03:08 PM	I can see why the intro adventures allow PCs up to level 4m but not why they cut of there rather than level 5 or level 6. I don't understand why the 2nd adventure is for levels 4-7. Why not support lower levels as well? [snip] Let me raise another point with respect to narrow level ranges. There was a deliberate intent in designing LFR to ease the administrative burden. Fewer regions, fewer modules per region, and the play-anywhere philosophy all contribute to this. However, narrower level ranges in modules put pressure the other way. The fewer characters can play a particular module, the more modules are needed. Certainly, limiting the level range makes the writing task easier, but one module covering 6-8 character levels is probably easier to produce than two modules covering 4 levels each. Maybe the approach the campaign seems to be taking is best overall, but I thought I should state the case against.
Nutation 05-16-08, 03:15 PM	As Shawn indicated, if one PC plays 7-8 adventures (and assuming they don't fail), that PC should gain 3 levels. That means a first level PC advances to a 4th level PC, which means that PC would be able to play any of the second wave of LFR adventures. (It also means later that a 4th level PC advances to a 7th level PC.) Interesting. In LG, typical advancement was once every 7-8 levels, with the first couple of levels being anomolous. Here, its once every 2.5-3 levels. I forget whether the 30 level spread in 4th edition is supposed to be more like 20 or 30 levels in 3rd edition, but either way, the campaign will advance distinctly faster from a character point of view. It sounds like some characters will hit Paragon tier in the first wave of next year's modules. Do the administrators have a rough idea of how fast the campaign should advance? (For example, epic characters at the end of 2010.)
smerwin29 05-16-08, 03:20 PM	I think you are making an assumption in your statement that "the fewer characters can play a particular module, the more modules are needed." Why are more modules needed? The modules will be there for people to play. Perhaps there will not be the "breadth of choice" that LG gave to people who had the opportunity to travel to various regions, but there will not be a lack of play opportunity for any save those who play multiple adventures each week.
Keith53 05-16-08, 04:38 PM	Regarding the "narrow" level range (you may see the term "level band" used to keep distinct from the term "Tier"), the LFR campaign staff are directed to use those level ranges. I believe that comes from WotC R&D's view that a narrow level range is required to create the best possible adventure and to parallel more traditional WotC published adventure product. The goal is to produce high quality adventures. It sounds like some characters will hit Paragon tier in the first wave of next year's modules. Do the administrators have a rough idea of how fast the campaign should advance? (For example, epic characters at the end of 2010.) Assuming a player sticks to one or maybe two PCs, and plays as much as possible, then by the end of the first quarter (wave of adventures) in 2009, their PC(s) would likely be 11th level (bottom of Paragon Tier). I don't know if we will see Epic Tier characters in 2010 or not until 2011. Not enough information for me to foresee the future more clearly. It may be that the schema will be reviewed for how well it is working (or not), and adjustments would be made after data is gathered. Keith
tombollis 05-16-08, 05:04 PM	I think you are making an assumption in your statement that "the fewer characters can play a particular module, the more modules are needed." Why are more modules needed? The modules will be there for people to play. Perhaps there will not be the "breadth of choice" that LG gave to people who had the opportunity to travel to various regions, but there will not be a lack of play opportunity for any save those who play multiple adventures each week. That still does not address why the level ranges per module seem so narrow. They don't allow a PC to adventure in only a couple of regions and still advance at a reasonable rate. If it takes 8 adventures to reach 4th level and only one adventure per region per year supports characters less than 4th level, a character must adventure in at least 3 regions to reach 4th level in 3 years, and any other PCs of that player must start in other regions during that time. If all 1st year adventures and most 2nd year adventures supported characters below 4th level, a PC couch reach 4th level in a year or two adventuring in only a region or two. Why not adventures that support APLs 1-5 and later ones that support A-PLs 1-10 during the first year? Posibly continue to limit APLs to 1-10 in the second Year, then add one requiring APLs 11-20 in the 3rd year, etc.? I'm under the impression that an adventure supporting APLs 1-10 would only require two different sets of basic encounters, one for lower levels, the other for higher levels, with minor variations within the sets to adapt to actual APL at the table. Have I gotten the wrong impression of how encounter difficulty is handled in the 4e rules? If I'm right, it shouldn't be to late to expand the alloed level ranges for the first two wavers of adventures, to give players more flexibility in adventure choice.
tombollis 05-16-08, 05:16 PM	the LFR campaign staff are directed to use those level ranges. I believe that comes from WotC R&D's view that a narrow level range is required to create the best possible adventure and to parallel more traditional WotC published adventure product. Can the admins talk to R&D about this? The 4 level bands seem too narrow for this campaign. They will be too restrictive, lowering player enjoyment of the campaign, even if they add to the quality of the individual adventures. The adventures can't be viewed in isolation, only in the contexr of the overall campaign, as experienced by the players, who will have to get together tables to play the individual adventures. May players won't want to resort to on line play to be able to play their PCs.
Surgebuster 05-16-08, 09:37 PM	Can the admins talk to R&D about this? The 4 level bands seem too narrow for this campaign. They will be too restrictive, lowering player enjoyment of the campaign, even if they add to the quality of the individual adventures. The adventures can't be viewed in isolation, only in the contexr of the overall campaign, as experienced by the players, who will have to get together tables to play the individual adventures. May players won't want to resort to on line play to be able to play their PCs. You are making some awfully definitive statements for someone who is unaware of how the campaign will operate - or even the finalised 4th edition ruleset. Statements such as; they will be too restrictive, they will lower player enjoyment, when you aren't in a position to make an informed comment, is exactly the kind of deliberately provocative speculation Shawn alluded to earlier in the thread. Joe
tombollis 05-17-08, 02:02 AM	You are making some awfully definitive statements for someone who is unaware of how the campaign will operate - or even the finalised 4th edition ruleset. Statements such as; they will be too restrictive, they will lower player enjoyment, when you aren't in a position to make an informed comment, is exactly the kind of deliberately provocative speculation Shawn alluded to earlier in the thread. Joe I don't agree. First, I have asked for reconsideration of the just stated policy of 4 level bands for adventures. That is knowledge of what is currently proposed for LFR operation. There has been indication that the 4e rules will have a 5 level band for simple creature advancement, that adding creatures of different levels will be straightforward as to impact on encounter difficulty, that their will be 10 level tiers for PCs, with the appropriate adventures being of different nature in each tier, etc. My recomendations seem to fit the indicated nature of 4e encounter design. Second, the released information 1st and 2nd wave regional adventure releases, one for levels 1-4 per region, then one for levels 4-7 per region, with an expextation of 7-8 adventures to avance 3 levels, coupled with Shawn's statement that there will be a total of 17 adventures for levels 1-4 during the first year, makes it clear that a character is expected to complete half of the available 1st wave adventures in order to qualify for any of the other adventures during the ist year. My conclusion are based on what has been stated, not speculation. I have had experience with living campaigns since the beginning of Living City., and have some idea of the problems of finding a gaming session locally outside of major metropolitan areas. If you don't play as part of a regular group, or go to frequent conventions, or play often on line, it is clear to me that many will find it hard to reach level 4 during the first year. There will also be many who will have no problem completing 8 or more 1st wave adventures before the 2nd wave cones out, but the others will have more problems finding games when many characters have moved on to the 2nd wave of adventures. If the 2nd wave also supported lower levels, those who play less often could adventure with 4th level or higher characters in 2nd wave releases. For those who play more often and want to play all 1st wave adventures, they will need tow play two or more PCs. If there are similar numbers of new 1-4 level adventures released in 2nd and 3rd year, there would be about 51 of them available, requing 5 or more PCs to play them all. It seems that a PC will need to complete about 8 adventures in each of the low, medium, and high bands of the Heroic tier to reach level 11, and will then be unplayable until level 11-14 adventures are avilable. A PC will apparently be limited to approximately 8-10 adventures in any band, and a similar number of adventures must already be completed in each lower band. What levels will the 4th and possible 5th regional adventures be in the 1st year? 11-14? That seems too rapid support for higher levels to me. 7-10? therewon't beenough eligible PCs to make that many reasonable, as they will be bottlenecked by the lower level adventures. I'm not trying to be provocative in the sense of provoking an emotional response, nor am I trying to have a negative impact of people's desire to play in the campaign. I'm trying to provoke the admins to consider the likely impact of the proposed bands and to bring it up with R&D, so that potential problems can be avoided. If I am concerned based on misinformation, then I would like to see more accurate info to releave my concern.
chesspiece 05-17-08, 09:00 AM	As a Player and one of the GMs in the only local RPGA group, I also believe that level bands need to be given serious consideration as early as possible. I expect that we might see some of the following within the first year: - Overlap between the 1-4 / 4-7 / 7-10 bands where modules cover levels 3-6 for example (still following 4-level bands but overlapping the bands that we saw in the initial announcements). This will make it easier for groups of mixed levels to continue advancing. However, there might be an unannounced campaign philosophy where they're trying to force PCs in small play areas into tighter level spreads. I'm content to wait & see. - Rare (<10%) adventures that cover a larger level range. Probably "core" or "special". These will promote the shared / common experience for more Players (one of the stated goals of LG Cores) and can ease some of the pressure to help mixed-level groups get the low-end PCs up into the next band. I also hope that RPGA has at least considered (or will soon consider) changing the 4-6 Players rule when 4e is introduced. I believe that our group would have been more active at recruiting / expanding locally if we didn't have to worry about saying "no" if 7 Players show up to a game night. Cheers, Stephen Martin Sudbury, Ontario, Canada
GrahamWills 05-17-08, 02:04 PM	I don't agree. If you don't play as part of a regular group, or go to frequent conventions, or play often on line, it is clear to me that many will find it hard to reach level 4 during the first year. There will also be many who will have no problem completing 8 or more 1st wave adventures before the 2nd wave cones out, but the others will have more problems finding games when many characters have moved on to the 2nd wave of adventures. ... If the 2nd wave also supported lower levels, those who play less often could adventure with 4th level or higher characters in 2nd wave releases. ... For those who play more often and want to play all 1st wave adventures, they will need to play two or more PCs. This seems pretty reasonable to me; if you don't play regularly, then your character will not be able to play the "second wave" ... but then the first wave is still around to play, right? That really doesn't sound much of an issue. And every single person I have met who wants to play anything close to "every adventure" has 3 or more characters. Again, this seems liek the way it already is. So the only worries for you should be the ones that follow your "if" statement, which is speculation. If we're into speculation, here's mine: If they find out that people aren't playing characters the way they expect and it is irritating people not to have a good mix of available mods, they will change things so it works. - Graham
tombollis 05-17-08, 04:28 PM	So the only worries for you should be the ones that follow your "if" statement, which is speculation. If we're into speculation, here's mine: If they find out that people aren't playing characters the way they expect and it is irritating people not to have a good mix of available mods, they will change things so it works. - Graham Not so much speculation, as I have reason to expect to be one of them. Changing things in the second year o later will not help the situation in the first year. It ius easier to address befor the second wave of adventures are completely written and edited than after they are released.
kenobi65 05-17-08, 10:07 PM	If I am concerned based on misinformation, then I would like to see more accurate info to releave my concern. I have a feeling that those who could give "more accurate info" would be violating their NDAs to provide it. You may have to live with your concern until June 6th.
tombollis 05-17-08, 11:12 PM	I have a feeling that those who could give "more accurate info" would be violating their NDAs to provide it. You may have to live with your concern until June 6th. Not so, based on what they have already said. My concerns are based on what has been said, which apparentlky does not violate NDAs. Clarifying this would just be correcting errors in what has been said, or stating things less ambiguously. If there are no errors, my concerns are well founded. Keith said "the LFR campaign staff are directed to use those level ranges" [namely 1-4 and 4-7], and "I believe that comes from WotC R&D's view that a narrow level range is required to create the best possible adventure and to parallel more traditional WotC published adventure product." while Shawn said "At the start of the campaign, there will be 17 rounds worth of adventures (and most likely a few more rounds) covering levels 1-4 . Those will be available to play for at least 3 years." These, and other remarks are the basis for my assumptions re adventures available to PCs below 4th level early in the campaign. There was an article, I forget where, that indicated how moster stats would scale in 5 level bands, and how DMs could easily adjust to the laverage level of a party.
smerwin29 05-18-08, 08:44 AM	I have a feeling that those who could give "more accurate info" would be violating their NDAs to provide it. You may have to live with your concern until June 6th. In some cases, this is precisely the issue. In other cases, there is not "more accurate information" to give. The information given is completely accurate, and there is nothing else to say. People should feel free to express concerns. Every legitimate and rational concern I have read so far has already been discussed at length among WotC staff, global administrators, and regional administrators. If concerns come up that haven't already been discussed, I will make sure they are brought up during our meetings. Shawn LFR Global Admin
WolfStar76 05-18-08, 09:56 AM	It is still a 'point of light' campaign, where travel is difficult. Actually - "points of light" is the premise for the generic no-name 4E campaign. (L)FR may or may not adopt that same philosophy. I seem to recall reading somewhere that they were adopting some of the points-of-light concepts, but it wasn't a strict points-of-light "setting". I might be confusing that with what I read about 4E Eberron, however, so salt liberally. :)
RSouthard 05-18-08, 10:42 AM	I must agree with others who have posted here that communication is something that WOTC and the RPGA needs to work on. I can not stress enough how big of an issue this has been for me as a customer. It has been enough for me to loose much of the enthusiasm I have marshaled for the upcoming release of 4e and LFR. I considered just yesterday canceling my pre-order. Now bare in mind that I am not upset about such things as 4e rules or even LFR rules. I am content to wait until the stated release dates. I must commend those here who have endevoured to answer such questions. They are at least communicating. Let me be clear on my position. I had a very negative experience with the RPGA at Gencon last year. It had to do with the 4e announcement. I was playing in the slot immediately before the hooplah. It was announced at the beginning of the slot that they were shortening the round (I think it was by an hour) to allow for set-up time. This was annoying. Then 30 minutes before the new finish time they announced that our time was now up and we had to clear out. No apology was given and no explanation was offered for this for this sudden change, don't let the door hit you on your way out. Our judge was kind enough to finish the round for us on the floor of the hallway outside the ballroom. I thank the kind judge who tried to make the best of the situation. That was the first time I felt that the powers that be could care less about my gaming experience. Now with the current situation my concern is growing that the attitude is getting worse not better. At this point I am still an active participant and my comments/rants are evidence that I have not given up entirely. Without some positive change my absence will become the most effective statement I can make. I do find it interesting that WOTC has remarked that one of the mistakes TSR made was alienating its fanbase. I would hate to see history repeat itself. Short Version: For gods sake tell us something. Note to Chris: You stated that you do not see the reason for impatience. Impatience in this case is synonymous with enthusiasm and your lack of understanding is squashing my enthusiasm. You seem apathetic. Please prove me wrong.
smerwin29 05-18-08, 11:22 AM	Communication is something that every organization needs to work on and maintain. Each organization must decide what kind of resources to put into that effort. That's why I am here right now. I will do my best to answer reasonable questions and note valid concerns for future discussion. However, there are some things I cannot discuss. And I don't have the time to get dragged into every debate. The RPGA was a victim of the shortened slot at GenCon last year, just as you were. We didn't find out until the start of the convention that our gaming area was requisitioned by WotC for their 4e announcement. The judges were told as soon as possible, so they could let the players know and try to finish games on time. People always refer to "the powers that be" as if there is just one being in power. Unless you are speaking philosophically, that is not the case. We are the RPGA, a small part of a portion of WotC, which is a tiny part of a very large corporation. I, as one of three Global Admins for one campaign within the RPGA, look out for our interests as best I can. Believe me when I say no one stomps and screams as much as I do when I see something wrong. But that only reaches so far, due to my small gnome feet and squeaky gnome voice. Chris may seem apathetic to the casual observer, but his 70+-hour, 7-day workweeks speak differently. Let me tell you all something about Chris. Before Chris took over as Content Manager for the RPGA, the RPGA was even less a blip on WotC's radar screen than it is now. Chris has been tireless (though probably tired) in his drive to make the RPGA better and to mean something more at WotC. I have been a critic of the RPGA's relationship with WotC over the years, and I have been truly shocked at the in-roads Chris has made. And to a person, when I spoke to the WotC staff at DDXP and afterwards, they all pointed to Chris as the person responsible for the improvements. So you will have to excuse Chris if he doesn't spend hours at a time on the forums or if there are still things you are unhappy about--he's going some great work that will bear fruit as new projects and campaigns are rolled out over the next few months and years. Starting in August, there will be lots and lots of LFR adventures to play. If you choose to play them, excellent. If not, then I'll note the reason why. If enough people choose not to play them, then maybe things will need to change, assuming I have the power to change them. If those reasons are things I cannot change (what happened at GenCon a year ago, something about 4e tweaks someone off, people think all RPGA players are idiots, etc.) then I will pass that information up the hierarchy to someone who might be able to do something about the information. That's all any of us can do right now. Thanks, Shawn LFR Global Admin
RSouthard 05-18-08, 04:10 PM	Shawn, I do appreciate your reply, you seem to genuinely want to help. I do not mean to be overly critical Chris. I really do not know him nor now of him well enough to judge overmuch. I was merely speaking to the specific comment he made. Though you say that Chris may seem apathetic to the casual observer, just remember that most gamers are casual observers. As to Chris' hard work, well I have been in a managerial position for many years now and I have learned one truth concerning this topic. Unsung heroes are often made into villains. (My next comment is likely going to read more harshly then I mean it too so please take with with a grain of salt.) You stated that I have to excuse Chris.... actually I do not have to. I may choose to or choose not to. You have made a compelling case and I am willing to postpone judgment. If I had to choose between the two I would rather have Chris hard at work on content as opposed to trolling the forums, but a quick announcement or comment on hot topics might not hurt his image. It would certain make me feel better. Did I mention the phantom chats on the calendar the never seem to happen anymore? As to the powers that be....I was merely using a generic phrase to describe the person or people who make such decisions. I have no idea as to the nature of the power structure of WOTC or its relationship with its parent company, let alone who to point the finger at for my unpleasant experience. Keep in mind that I have always found the volunteers of the RPGA to be more then helpful and more then willing to bend over backwards to help other gamers. The friendliness and devotion to the hobby of the majority of the RPGA members are the main reasons I am a member of the organization. I really do want Chris and the RPGA to be successful. I also want WOTC and 4e to be successful.
gomeztoo 05-19-08, 02:55 AM	Believe me when I say no one stomps and screams as much as I do when I see something wrong. But that only reaches so far, due to my small gnome feet and squeaky gnome voice. Yes, but at least now you have a lair. A lair! How cool is that?!?! (sorry, couldn't resist). Note that right now we give out any info we can, but there isn't much yet. There are changes, and for some we still need to see how or if they work out better than the old system. As to the level band and rate-of-play: You have raised worries that we have raised as well. We have a number of administrators here with wildly different opinions so when something gets raised here, fair change it has already been raised on the administrator lists. Unfortunately we can't always relate then what reaction (or solutions) we are then given. Right now, the level bands for the first two scenarios are determined (the second Dalelands scenario is aclled 'Blades for Daggerdale', btw). they are being written as we speak, so it is unlikely to change much now. We will simply have to see on how this will work out, before determining whether we need to adjust. Gomez
Kithran 05-19-08, 02:18 PM	For the blurbs for the first block of adventures check this link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/news/20080519a Kithran Luruar POC
smerwin29 05-19-08, 03:04 PM	Yes, but at least now you have a lair. A lair! How cool is that?!?! And minions!
pedr 05-19-08, 06:46 PM	You administrators keep saying that you don't want IC titles like 'Circle' and 'Triad', but may I humbly suggest that we call the Global Admins "The Gnomes" and the Regional Admins "The Minions"?
Surgebuster 05-19-08, 07:05 PM	You administrators keep saying that you don't want IC titles like 'Circle' and 'Triad', but may I humbly suggest that we call the Global Admins "The Gnomes" and the Regional Admins "The Minions"? ...but that would mean I die from a single hit! Joe
RedKnightofKet 05-19-08, 07:45 PM	...but that would mean I die from a single hit! Joe Then it's pretty simple, Joe: don't get hit. :P
Madfox11 05-20-08, 03:59 AM	That would be the first time people compare me to a gnome... Pieter Sleijpen RPGA LFR Global Administrator and 6'10" tall
_aerion_ 05-20-08, 11:02 AM	Perhaps there will not be the "breadth of choice" that LG gave to people who had the opportunity to travel to various regions, but there will not be a lack of play opportunity for any save those who play multiple adventures each week. This is a concern for folks like me (and, well, ME). I was already leery of the "Bigger regions, fewer adventures" tac being adopted with LFR. Great, I can play stuff from around the globe, thereby expanding my playable material. What worries me is the prospect of traveling to a convention and only having 2 or 3 LFR Adventures to play (assuming, of course, I haven't already played any of those at another convention the previous month). What it's looking like to me is the RPGA is encouraging people to begin LFR as a home game, ordering and running adventures pell-mell to get their character(s) to the next tier (there's a word I never thought I'd use again) so they can be in the level zone to play the NEXT handful of adventures in the next round of release, yadda-yadda ad-infinitum. If this is the case (and, please, disperse my illusions if it's NOT!), it seems to me my future as a small convention and game day organizer just became a NIGHTMARE! Scene: SmallCon 09 Player 1: I'm signed up to play LFRMOD-3 with my sister. There are dozens of other players here. Why are none of them playing it? We drove from Farawayfromhere Iowa to taste your regional flare in person. Con Organizer: Well, Sir, it seems all those people already played that particular mod in their basements here locally last month and are here to play LFRMOD-5 with their 6th level characters. You and your sister are only 3rd level, so you can't play with them anyway. I'm sorry, here's your money back. Thanks for driving 4 hours for no apparent reason. End scene.... Am I totally bonkers here?:confused:
Timlagor 05-20-08, 02:59 PM	Did I miss the bit where they said the next batch of adventures would be level 5-8? Are we certain that characters can play out of region at all?
Lord Toast 05-20-08, 03:10 PM	This is a concern for folks like me (and, well, ME). I was already leery of the "Bigger regions, fewer adventures" tac being adopted with LFR. Great, I can play stuff from around the globe, thereby expanding my playable material. What worries me is the prospect of traveling to a convention and only having 2 or 3 LFR Adventures to play (assuming, of course, I haven't already played any of those at another convention the previous month). What it's looking like to me is the RPGA is encouraging people to begin LFR as a home game, ordering and running adventures pell-mell to get their character(s) to the next tier (there's a word I never thought I'd use again) so they can be in the level zone to play the NEXT handful of adventures in the next round of release, yadda-yadda ad-infinitum. If this is the case (and, please, disperse my illusions if it's NOT!), it seems to me my future as a small convention and game day organizer just became a NIGHTMARE! Scene: SmallCon 09 Player 1: I'm signed up to play LFRMOD-3 with my sister. There are dozens of other players here. Why are none of them playing it? We drove from Farawayfromhere Iowa to taste your regional flare in person. Con Organizer: Well, Sir, it seems all those people already played that particular mod in their basements here locally last month and are here to play LFRMOD-5 with their 6th level characters. You and your sister are only 3rd level, so you can't play with them anyway. I'm sorry, here's your money back. Thanks for driving 4 hours for no apparent reason. End scene.... Am I totally bonkers here?:confused: No you are not going bonkers, the possibility does exist. I got turned away last time I went to a convention to play Living Greyhawk because I was too low in level. Keep in mind I looked up the information on the website before leaving the house. According to it there was suppose to be a low level game and an introductory level game. They got canceled for reasons unknown at the last moment. In the end even with research it’s a gamble before you leave for a convention.
tombollis 05-20-08, 04:39 PM	Did I miss the bit where they said the next batch of adventures would be level 5-8? Are we certain that characters can play out of region at all? The first wave of adventures have been announced as for levels 1-4. Those of the second wave that have been announced say levels 4-7. It has been stated that the level bands are dictated by WoTC, probably advicesd by R&D. It has been stated that there will be about 17 adventures for levels 1-4 in the first year. It is definite that characters can adventure in multiple regions. Not only is it possible and expectected, it will be necessary if you want to play any adventures beyonf the first releases this year.
_aerion_ 05-20-08, 06:16 PM	So then it's true. The "Role" in "Roleplaying" is being shived like a drunken merchant in a back alley. From what I've read so far, the "new" Realms is a nasty, NASTY place rife with disease, war, famine, and other scary guys riding horses of different colors. Why, in the name of this week's diety in the flesh would my first thru third level PC WANT to leave the (relative) comforts of home, travel distances that, unless the Realms are importing the lightning rail, are completely impossible, to rescue some tart's kobold-kidnapped daughter? Just so he or she can feel reasonably competent to handle the next encounter likely to jump out in the ol' backyard (assuming said PC makes it home to find said encounter in the first place)? I'm all for suspension of disbelief, but show me where this is different than plugging through the next "level" just to kill the boss monster and collect some shiny bits? Larry Snodgrass Who, until about 2 threads ago, was starting to look forward to 4E and LFR.:(
Timlagor 05-20-08, 09:56 PM	D E I T Y
Surgebuster 05-20-08, 10:17 PM	Yes Aerion, you are bonkers. :D Look, I understand that passsionate fans (like me) want to scrutinise and extrapolate every crumb of rumour and scuttlebutt going around but surely there is a place at the table for common sense? :confused: What makes anyone think that just because most adventures are playable at home that there will not be a staggered release schedule, as in other living campaigns? Conventions, then gamedays, then home play. It seems pretty reasonable to think that some form of this would be implemented in LFR, no? As I have said in another thread, players do not belong to one region, they belong to every region. Chris Tulach has stated that regions were allocated to real-world locations primarily for ease of administration - this in no way impacts the play experience. Also, in my opinion, 4e provides so much more scope for role-playing than 3e that it is no contest. Roleplaying has certainly not been 'shived' like a drunken merchant in a back alley. Although if you come to Westgate, your character certainly might be! The campaign guidelines will arrive soon and will definitively answer these questions and many more. :) Joe
_aerion_ 05-20-08, 11:16 PM	D E I T Y Seriously? LOL! As for my bonkeriness, that goes without opposition. As for my concerns, I'm not basing any of them on rumours or speculation. They are all rooted firmly in what little information has been printed by the PTBs here. Any gully-dwarf can do the math: 2 regional adventure per quarter, each with drastically divergent level ranges means that for a character to be elligable to play the 2nd adventure in a region, that character MUST play at least a couple adventures out of region. You say characters don't "belong to one region." I say, why in blazes WOULDN'T they, considering the proposed setting (which, again, has moved beyond speculation if you've read any of the transition books currently on the market)? Post-apocalyptic, heck, even PRE apocalyptic Faerun, is no place for first level PCs to go walkabout. The obvious concerns this raises leads nicely into my fear that LFR will become a farce of Roleplaying. If the campaign forces young, inexperienced characters to become globetrotters before any reasonable skills have been developed to survive such a horrifically dangerous journey, how can I in any imaginative stretch forsee my character(s) being anything more than a PnP version of a Gauntlet character: Move forward, kill monster, find gold, eat food, move to next area, rinse, repeat. My character starts in Waterdeep. He manages to survive Waterdeep-1. What's next for our stalwart young hero? A journey of several thousands miles to fight a kobold? Huh? Hero shows up in faraway village which he somehow knows is under kobold scrutiny. Local barkeep welcomes him with open arms. Idle chit-chat ensues. "So, whelp. What brings you to our fair village?" Hero: "Uhhhhhh, I felt like going for a walk through the dangerous plague-ridden wastelands with my trusty sword and leather armor. I'd have ridden here, but I don't seem to have the coin to buy or support a mount. No matter. Where is that pesky kobold so I can put him down. I have several thousand miles to trek, and numerous other foreign kobolds to kill before I can return home." Yeah, the roleplaying opportunities are RAMPANT! Larry, the increasingly nervous. Timlagor, you may spellcheck when ready.
tomjscott 05-20-08, 11:50 PM	It does seem a bit strange, but maybe it was the best solution available to the problem that presented itself. I'm thinking, however, that the actual journey from region to region will probably not be something that figures into the equation. I'm not privy to any insider information, but it just seems like that would be the case. I highly doubt there will be modules that simply involve traveling from region to region or that such travel would be left up to the DMs running the campaigns.
Reneshat 05-21-08, 01:19 AM	If the campaign forces young, inexperienced characters to become globetrotters before any reasonable skills have been developed to survive such a horrifically dangerous journey, how can I in any imaginative stretch forsee my character(s) being anything more than a PnP version of a Gauntlet character: Larry, I believe this is where your understanding of 4ed proves to be inadequate. 1st level really isn't 1st level anymore. Instead it's something closer to 3rd or 5th level in d20. You know longer have to slog through that, oh so horrible, roleplaying your character when he's weak. Everyone knows the reason to play D&D is to live vicariously through your super powered character, even at level 1. :rolleyes:
gomeztoo 05-21-08, 02:56 AM	My character starts in Waterdeep. He manages to survive Waterdeep-1. What's next for our stalwart young hero? I would have liked a more regional approach as well, but I am planning to solve the discrepancy by making my characters semi-regional. One of my PCs is liekly to stick to the Swordcaiast and environs. She is from Luruar. That means that she can travel and adventure with relative safety (give or take several grains of salt and some suspension of disbelief), to Luruar, Waterdeep, Moonshae Isles, and (stretching it only slightly) Baldur's Gate. That's 4 scenarios. I migth even do Nelanther Isles (Core scenario, more stretching), as I got THAT far... Then head home again, and hope the published scenario (FR1 Scepter Tower of Spellgard) which is near Luruar iirc, is playable in LFR. If not, this'll mean shelving V until next year. Meanwhile, my other PC travels between Dragoncoast and East rift (taking in Akanul and Tyrmanthyr). Maybe hop over to the other side and do Aglarond/Thesk/Impiltur, though I would say that is a stretch. No idea which ones would go to visit Zhentil Keep, as it isn't near anything (my East Rift char is likely closest). I won't adventure in Dalelands (own region) or Cormyr (too much inside knowledge), but you could otherwise make a PC that travels there (Dalelands, Cormyr, Impiltur, Dragon Coast, Zhentil keep). Yes, for a heroic 'has to stay local' character that is still a lot of travel. There may be coming more stuff out of course, not sure if there will be anything besides the cores and regionals. Of course, this is all assuming I will play that often that it is needed. If I don't play that often, I might just be able to wait until a new 1-4 lvl regional scenario is brought out. Gomez
_aerion_ 05-21-08, 06:44 AM	Great plan, G. Should we really have to go to such great lengths to build our own RP framework? Seems to me something like that should have been built into the campaign from the start, assuming it is to be a ROLEPLAYING game. Sounds a bit like buying a spanking new car. But before you can drive it off the lot, you have to put tires on it, upholster the seats, install glass, paint it, install the radio, all while the guys from the factory stand around laughing at you. Hey, they gave you a frame and an engine, right? :rolleyes:
RSouthard 05-21-08, 10:01 AM	Oddly enough my club has taken a different approach. Instead of worrying about regional play with regard to characters we have attakced it from the judging side. We are taking volunteers to "oversee" each region besides our official region. This person is responsible for judging mods from "their" region as well as keeping current on all regional happenings. (i.e. storyarcs, meta-orgs, or whatever emerges with region flavor)
johnsocp 05-21-08, 10:48 AM	Great plan, G. Should we really have to go to such great lengths to build our own RP framework? Seems to me something like that should have been built into the campaign from the start, assuming it is to be a ROLEPLAYING game. Sounds a bit like buying a spanking new car. But before you can drive it off the lot, you have to put tires on it, upholster the seats, install glass, paint it, install the radio, all while the guys from the factory stand around laughing at you. Hey, they gave you a frame and an engine, right? :rolleyes: Umm...isn't that kind of the point? I have always felt that it is my job to find a fit for my PC in the campaign. Especially a large living campaign like LFR, where they can not provide hooks for 20,000 different PCs (or more I have not idea on the numbers). The setting is pretty simple, you have 15 adventures a quarter that happen all over the world, can you suspend disbelief enough to allow your character to travel all over the world? If that doesn't work for you, can you find a subset of adventures that allow you to suspend the disbelief? As stated before you will only need to play only about half of them to make the next tier. If you can't find 7-8 adventures a quarter that you can logically play, then I humbly suggest that you do not play LFR and play the new DND Campaign happening after Xendric (sp?) expiditions, which has a much smaller scope. By the way I believe a good campaign setting is only a frame and engine, it is my job as the GM (or in this case the LFR Admins) to fill in the details about the car. It is your job to fill in the details about the driver, and as the driver it is your decision to drive the car to California or not. --Chris J.
Timlagor 05-21-08, 04:38 PM	I have an Idea! (tm) We could all not play LFR for a couple of years until there are enough regional modules not to have to undertake these hideous journeys! :D [and I don't buy that 1st level characters are that powerful; if 1st level characters can travel that far uneventfully then there really isn't any 'Points of light' going on because the roads just aren't that dangeroud] Seriously? LOL! I have a quota :P [Most typos don't bother me, and even for "deity" I usually only respond when I see two or three of them in the same post indicating faulty spelling rather than a mere typo but they always give me a 'wait! what?' moment which is aggravating]
Keith53 05-21-08, 08:02 PM	I won't engage in the debate whether or not low-level PCs should or should not travel widely around the Realms seeking adventures; that is a matter for individual players to decide for themselves. In 4E, there is a bit of a premise that all adventurers, even first level characters, are beyond that of the average person. Whether you like that, or not, is also up to you. I think the reasons for the global availability of the regional adventures include getting higher play numbers, having more shared experiences, and creating more play opportunities (without having to pay for incredible numbers of adventures). For myself, yes, I would probably tend to restrict my PCs to some subset of regions, maybe start with 2 PCs, and expand later, if I feel like it, or the need arises. Not sure what grouping yet (since I can't play Waterdeep adventures). Keith
tombollis 05-21-08, 09:24 PM	For myself, yes, I would probably tend to restrict my PCs to some subset of regions, maybe start with 2 PCs, and expand later, if I feel like it, or the need arises. Not sure what grouping yet (since I can't play Waterdeep adventures). It's good to see that the regional admins will have almost as many play opportunities as the other members of the campaign. They need their fun too, and it will help them identify with the rest of the players and their concerns.
_aerion_ 05-22-08, 04:02 AM	In 4E, there is a bit of a premise that all adventurers, even first level characters, are beyond that of the average person. Whether you like that, or not, is also up to you. Keith Please, Keith, don't get me started on the "Adventurers are Uberbeings" thing. Yes, 4E adventurers ARE far and above the "average" person. So are the monsters. And, in case you forgot, 3E, 3.5E, 2nd, 1st, and even pink-box D&D PCs were equally on the right side of the bell curve. Compare an average 1st level PC of any class to the Commoner in the DMG. Sorry, but that argument is garbage, and it's been floated a few times by various people. Not buying. Next!:P
_aerion_ 05-22-08, 04:09 AM	I have a quota :P [Most typos don't bother me, and even for "deity" I usually only respond when I see two or three of them in the same post indicating faulty spelling rather than a mere typo but they always give me a 'wait! what?' moment which is aggravating] Better either up your quota or get ready to have a stroke. I'm pushing 40, majored in English Education, and even I get blind spots (Deity being one.) I'll make you a deal. You keep retentavely correcting people, and I'll keep giving you eye twitches. Shake on it? :D
Simpi 05-22-08, 05:38 AM	As for future adventures, here is one: DALE-2 Blades for Daggerdale (by Matthias Schäfer) Regular attacks by creatures of the wild turn life in Daggerdale into a nightmare. So when mercenaries offer protection for a fee, does it matter that these were the old enemies of the past? A Living Forgotten Realms adventure set in the Dalelands for characters levels 4-7 Sampo Haarlaa Dalelands POC
tombollis 05-22-08, 07:17 AM	Please, Keith, don't get me started on the "Adventurers are Uberbeings" thing. Yes, 4E adventurers ARE far and above the "average" person. So are the monsters. Sorry, but that argument is garbage, and it's been floated a few times by various people. Not buying. Next!:P You seem to be missing the actual rgument. 4e 1st level PCs are apparently more like 3e 3rd level PCs in terms of survivability against the foes they are likely to encounter. Death from one lucky blow is nowhere near as likely as in older editions. The 4e rules also seem to encourage greater cooperation within the party, which should also aid survivability. I do buy the arguments given for greater survivability of 1st level PCs in 4e.
MatteBlack 05-22-08, 10:08 AM	Oddly enough my club has taken a different approach. Instead of worrying about regional play with regard to characters we have attakced it from the judging side. We are taking volunteers to "oversee" each region besides our official region. This person is responsible for judging mods from "their" region as well as keeping current on all regional happenings. (i.e. storyarcs, meta-orgs, or whatever emerges with region flavor) I think something like this would be a wise thing for con organizers nearby one another to coordiante on. Probably the region a given con is in will be easily supported and may well be granted debuts and such but, it might not be a bad idea for each con to pick an external region or two to favor beyond it's local one. It could give each con's LFR contingent it's own flavor and make the coordinators job a bit simpler in trying to guess which mods will be wanted by it's attendees. If every neighboring con is stepping on eachother's toes as far as offering all mods, grouping tables could be a nightmare.
MatteBlack 05-22-08, 10:23 AM	Is it 17 rounds to get to 4th level or to go through 4th level? They are listing 16 mods for level 1-4 for a total of 17 rounds of play. I am assuming many will have played all the listed ones by the end of August. It would sort of suck to not be able to get into the 2nd tier of mods and run out of content because you missed XP on one encounter. I'd also worry about the rammifications of playing a second character or skipping a mod for RP reasons.
smerwin29 05-22-08, 11:22 AM	It is impossible to give exact numbers, because it is still not set in stone how many rounds are going to be available, or how much XP is going to be given per round depending on the type of adventure. It will certainly not take all 17 rounds to get a character to 4th (or 5th) level. It would most likely be impossible to play the same character through all 17 rounds because the character would be fifth level before playing all of them. I wouldn't suggest playing more than 2 characters though, at least at first. There will certainly be play opportunites later. People need to understand that there are going to be lots and lots of play opportunities above and beyond just the regional adventures. Details are still being worked out about those. Shawn LFR Global Admin
tombollis 05-22-08, 01:12 PM	It is impossible to give exact numbers, because it is still not set in stone how many rounds are going to be available, or how much XP is going to be given per round depending on the type of adventure. It will certainly not take all 17 rounds to get a character to 4th (or 5th) level. It would most likely be impossible to play the same character through all 17 rounds because the character would be fifth level before playing all of them. I wouldn't suggest playing more than 2 characters though, at least at first. There will certainly be play opportunites later. People need to understand that there are going to be lots and lots of play opportunities above and beyond just the regional adventures. Details are still being worked out about those. Shawn LFR Global Admin I think Shawn has made a numeric slip here. The estimates given before were that it would tke around 10 rounds to complete 4 levels, anfd that there would be about 17 rounds in the leels 1-4 band available this year -enough to possibly get 2 PCs to 4the level (or 1 to 5th and 1 to 3rd).There will also be adventures available in the 4-7 level band. Once a PC reaches 5th level, he apparently won't be able to play any additional 1-4 level band adventures, so a second PC would be required to play any more of them. If the adventures grant less XP and 17 rounds are required to reach 4th level, few people could plkay adventures after the first band this year and play more than an adventure or two with a second PC.
Timlagor 05-22-08, 01:49 PM	At present I'm not planning to make any attempt at all at continuity for my character(s). I may not even invent a background for several months until I see how the campaign world works (..or I may come up with something as soon as I see the LFRCS).
Keith53 05-22-08, 06:20 PM	Guys, Please don't get too fixated on an exact formula for xp and PC advancement. Some of the fuzziness in my and Shawn's comments is due to some variables that might exist in specific adventures, in what level a given PC is as compared to the table "APL" (or the monsters <insert 4E version of CR>), phase of the moon, how successful the PCs are, etc. As a rule of thumb (meaning slightly rough figure), if a PC does well on 7-8 typical LFR adventures, then it will be reasonable to expect him/her/it to gain 3 levels, which would take the character from 1st to 4th. 10 adventures...yeah, you might gain 4 levels, but don't take that as a promise or any iron clad guarantee. Will any LFR adventures vary from the "typical?" I don't know. Exactly how many adventures will be released each quarter? Aside from the regionals and the cores, I don't know the answer to that either. So having a strategy of a primary PC (who you may or may not choose to associate with a subset of regions) is played enough in the first wave to advance in the second wave of adventures which will come is good. If you want to also advance a second PC at the same time, then you will need to watch the numbers a bit more carefully during the first year of the campaign. If you play 3 PCs equally, then you might hit a speed bump and have to wait for more low-Heroic Tier adventures (1-4) to be released. Later in 2009, I speculate that more low level adventures will be published and it will be feasible to advance even more PCs. It is difficult during campaign startup to address all desires equally well at the same time. Hopefully, folks will be patient for more adventures to be produced. :-D Keith
Xippendollom Krakenwarren 05-23-08, 09:04 PM	I think my only concern with regards to the level bands is this: In my area, there is virtually no RPGA activity at all. I attempted to start some up last year, and it was going alright, but the interest died off quickly after the end of Living Greyhawk was announced, and so now it's back down to basically nothing. I'm going to GenCon, but I'll be the only one from my area going, so it's conceivable that I will have a level 3 (likely not 4, but I guess it's possible) character by the time I come back and by the time a couple of modules are run locally, I'll be over the level cap and forced to basically retire my character for several months until everyone else can catch up. That being said, I wholeheartedly agree that this is way too early to get all worked up about any of this. There are way too many factors that come into play to be worrying about whether the level bands are right or whether there will be "cross band" adventures when we haven't even seen the rules yet.
Ophiskia 05-24-08, 10:33 AM	I'm going to GenCon, but I'll be the only one from my area going, so it's conceivable that I will have a level 3 (likely not 4, but I guess it's possible) character by the time I come back and by the time a couple of modules are run locally, I'll be over the level cap and forced to basically retire my character for several months until everyone else can catch up. You can carry on playing your character in the first wave of scenarios until you reach 5th level, so should be able to get a few more modules in before having to temporarily retire them. Or start up a new 1st level character for playing moduels in the 1-4 band, if the ones run locally aren't ones you've already played (and if they are, then you couldn't play them even without the level banding). Or run the ones you've played for other people, so that they can catch up?
Madfox11 05-27-08, 07:17 AM	Remember that not all adventures premier at Indy GenCon. The rest becomes available over the rest of the quarter which includes September as well.