Post/Author/DateTime	Post
opa 09-07-07, 08:32 AM	In terms of Living Greyhawk I play in Bissel ( NH, VT, ME, MA, RI, CT), and there has always been a feeling here from those of us that play north off Boston, that we were removed from the Leadership and main cons which has been centered in CT for the most part (Noones fault that CT has a talented well organized group of gamers). Our triad has been good at travelling the 4 hours or so to attend the conventions up north and I even get to see them at game days, I know how exciting it was to be able to hobnob with the triad when I weas a new player, and how much of a resource it is to be friends and see them from time to time now.. It made my relationship with the campaign personal, which is for me the biggest part of supporting organized play... Our region has been combined now with Keoland (NY, NJ, Pa) and half of Geoff (De,Md, De, WV, and DC?). We were kept happy and in the loop because our triad took the time to keep us in the loop, my fear is now that with three times more cons to attend, some of which that run in the three regions conflict, that our "administrator" won't be able to make it to all the cons, or provide interactives.. It seems likely with so much territory added to our south and the huge population centers there, that my regions focus will inevitably move south, placing us even further in the Hinterlands.. Our con support administrator would have to attend a con every other weekend instead of 8 or so a year, to keep up the support our three regions have had, and I am afraid we may not see a volunteer with that much free time.. I'm pretty sure we won't have the personal feel of running into our triad at the local game day with the workloads theyll have.. My fear is that CT, once our strong Point that reached out to make us up north feel at home will now be the hinterlands for a campaign run out of places further south like NY or PA.. Although I love the fact we have partnered with such talented leaders and writers from Keoland and Geoff it really seems to me that the game will become much more impersonal.. Now I suppose it won't matter much for Online play where anyone is, but it really seems to bode ill for local cons... Now while I of course understand that WOTC only runs 1 con, it only helps them to support convention play.. But does it help them enough Local cons always had players travelling to them to play out of region mods.. I attended Keoland cons for the sole reason of being able to play keoland mods, I know lots of others that did too... We wont need to do that any more if we can play those mods at home... I also fear that smaller cons by necessity have to get less support from the leadership when they have to prepare for or attend a bigger con somewhere else in the region.. In Bissel currently we get a well attended con every two months or so, once you throw the added regions cons in the mix, how many of the cons will survive.. and possibly push the power center further south.. It seems with these bigger regions that things will be way more impersonal and will by necessity focus things into pockets of play in the larger cities.. I don't fear for lack of play opportunities, we have a vibrant gaming community here, and will continue to have one, its just for the smaller conventions that I am concerned.. A suituation where the leadership is removed from our daily lives enough to just become a name on a paper instead of our friend we see at cons and game days, and with less small conventions where we can meet and play with new people.. itll almost become a home campaign where we play with the same group of people all the time, except use someone elses rules..(I guess Im speaking mainly for those of us not excited about switching to online play here) Without the Tusmit or Keoland players attending the cons to play cross region, and cons way closer to them being at similar times, and the likelihood of the administrators living even further away... I dont think it bodes well for the smaller conventions, and I'm sure there are similar situations in nearly every region.. Well I can only hope that someone somewhere in some position of authority has thought of all this and thought up a solution.. It seems like the triads have just gotten their work loads tripled, now that may be great if you were being paid, but not so good for volunteers, I know some regions had problems replacing triad members that left, and I suppose this will make it way easier to keep the "administrator" positions filled... I suppose my suggestion would be to allow the administrators to have assistant administrators, especially for areas in their region that they are physically far away from.. Lets take the western states for example, lets say they are lucky enough to get an administrator in california alaska and hawaii, unlikely at best... so alaska or hawaii almost certainly wont have much personal time with their campaign leadership, why not let the administrator choose an assistant from the area so far removed from him to help facilitate the campaign.. it wouldn't have to be a mandatory position for every region, but if it was a sanctioned option for administrators to have assistants, that could be the personal face of the campaign to the player base of a region , I think it could only help.. especially in the non us regions.... Its more liekley to see canadien I certainly would be way happier if there was somebody, attending our game days and conventions in NH on a regular basis that had some sort of role in the campaign, if by happenstance my administartors end up being from NY, WV, CT and I suppose interactives will be the main draw for travelling long distances to attend "out of region" conventions.. perhaps someone has thought of other goodies thatll make me drive 4 hours to a con, I'll have to wait and see Hating Losing LG, but looking forward to the future.. Opa NH/Bissel/????
Beowulfe 09-07-07, 01:27 PM	Well to sound harse and cruel, it is not really WotC's job to insure conventions can survive. I know several mini cons in my area that popped up just because of LG. Their sole purpose was to provide a central gaming location for people as well as out of towners to come. How will this affect conventions? Greatly I would imagine. I will bet that a fair number will fold and never happen again. Then again, I am sure that many more will form and fill the void. This is not a good thing nor is it a bad thing. Conventions have always evolved to meet the need or they have perished. With online play, conventions will have to come up with more of a reason for players to attend. As it has been mentioned on numerous threads, one draw will be interactives, another could be special events only playable at conventions and the final draw is a large number of games in a short amount of time. Players often have problems lining up more than one module in a weekend. Conventions provide a place to get a dozen or more modules played in one weekend. The bottom line is some conventions will fail, some will change and continue and new ones will form. WotC cannot plan and work with every gaming convention in the world to ensure they are able to continue.
ankhwearer 09-07-07, 02:24 PM	I have read a few posts now that are concerned that smaller or "regional" cons will have problems continuing. I'm not sure that I buy the arguements. If there are more scenarios, available from more regions, I think that there will be MORE smaller cons, not less. Gamedays at stores and local meets, in my opinion, should be happening MORE often, not less often. How else are you going to get together to play games? One could argue that limiting an LG region to eight regional mods also capped the number of regional cons to eight. I feel that the current direction will uncap that restriction. The other concern I'm hearing, which was stated at the begining of this thread, is that administrators won't be directly involved with each con and the cons will suffer from it. Cons already have administrators, and in most cases, these organizers are NOT the triad members (who already have enough on their plates). I guess I don't understand Opa's statement: We were kept happy and in the loop because our triad took the time to keep us in the loop.The role of one of the administrators for his new region is specifically to keep the members in the loop. I suppose I would agree that this will not be done face-to-face any longer, but in my region (DoU) that didn't happen that much anyway. To me, it seems that the best way to keep cons growing is to not hide them in some tiny motel with a conference room. It is to recruit new players are game stores that happen to be passing through during a gameday. Big cons, such as Penny Arcade Expo (PAX) also connect with new players. (PAX signed up 65 new RPGA members last month.). Aside from providing play opportunities to local players and those that are willing to travel, how do small cons support D&D? How do they make the RPGA or the market for D&D products grow? But, what I imagine will happen is that smaller areas, like Bissel, just won't be able to run enough cons and gamedays to handle the increased number of mods. Players will still need to travel (probably shorter distances) in order to get to enough cons to hit their desired frequency of play. I imagine things staying about the same, really. Hey, lets look at this another way. A lot of the effort to make mods was wasted. There are thousands of players in the US that would never see a mod from Splintered Suns meta-region. Thousands of players that would never play a mod from Ratik. Why should a mod only ever get 60 players that ever played it? Isn't that a waste of effort?
MichaelAhlf 09-07-07, 05:26 PM	Well to sound harse and cruel, it is not really WotC's job to insure conventions can survive. Maybe not. However, it is in WotC's best interest not to do things that they know will kill a vast majority of conventions outright. I know several mini cons in my area that popped up just because of LG. Their sole purpose was to provide a central gaming location for people as well as out of towners to come. How will this affect conventions? Greatly I would imagine. I will bet that a fair number will fold and never happen again. Then again, I am sure that many more will form and fill the void. And why would they? The point of many of these conventions, as you say, is twofold: #1 - to bring the local gamers together (to play mods, have an interactive, etc). #2 - to bring in people from out of town. If you kill the conventions, you kill the Interactives, and you kill much of the "get together and hang out" flavor. A convention is more than just the mods played; much of it is the number of people getting into the same area, mingling, and getting to know new people and catching up with old friends alike. However, there has to be a draw to cause this. You can't do a convention very well without activities (mods and interactives) to be had. This is not a good thing nor is it a bad thing. Conventions have always evolved to meet the need or they have perished. If the number of conventions is fewer, it is bad for us all and bad for WotC. With online play, conventions will have to come up with more of a reason for players to attend. As it has been mentioned on numerous threads, one draw will be interactives, another could be special events only playable at conventions and the final draw is a large number of games in a short amount of time. With online play, you can have an entire group of people or set of people get together for a weekend to play, no problem. Players often have problems lining up more than one module in a weekend. Conventions provide a place to get a dozen or more modules played in one weekend. Conventions also get the people together, which is the missing part of that equation. With online play, the people are available from anywhere. The bottom line is some conventions will fail, some will change and continue and new ones will form. WotC cannot plan and work with every gaming convention in the world to ensure they are able to continue. No, but WotC could recognize that they have a vested interest in conventions surviving. Conventions offer and foster the sense of community that has been so important for LG and ought to be important in any Living campaign. Yes, you can have a "regular home group" playing LG right now, but it's more fun to mingle a bit and have a more varied experience. That very sense of community gives players a better emotional investment into the campaign, into the world that the players are shaping, and into their characters. Players who have that emotional investment are more likely to keep playing, and thus keep buying WotC's books, than those who don't. With the change in regions now? I can't see myself traveling to out-of-region conventions. Most players, unless they are AMAZINGLY lucky, are now a plane flight away from any other region. Ohio/West Virginia/Kentucky got the cheese, everyone else got screwed. Even if attendance for most conventions was only 25% out-of-state players, can an LG-specific convention survive on those? Will not a convention that wasn't LG-specific, but had a good-sized LG presence, suffer for their lack? WotC's doing a great job of shooting themselves in the foot by killing conventions.
Beowulfe 09-07-07, 06:13 PM	It's all doom and gloom. The end of the world. Exaggerating, yes. I know many conventions formed because of LG. Yes there is the hang out factor but really, are you going to travel several hundred miles just to hang out with friends? If so then whether it is regional play or open to the masses won't matter according to you, you'd go anyway. Let's examine this with some real world examples. There are three conventions in my home town: CatchupCon, EconoCon and DragonCon. DragonCon is scifi con but has a fair amount of gaming. Whether LG lives or dies, DragonCon will continue. Gaming will probably pick up LFR but it will continue with little to no effect. EconoCon was originally formed as an LG convention. More recent ones started to include other campaigns, Living Death, Living Arcanis, Blackmoor, etc. Will it continue without LG, that depends. I'd bet it will scale back next year and maybe flounder. Probably move from a hotel to community center or something else to cut costs. I suspect it will survive and adapt. The last, CatchupCon sole purpose was for LG and more specifically the last con of the year for everyone to play events that were retiring that year. I predict this will be its last year. There were even grumblings about whether or not that it will even happen. I can guarentee that if there is a desire, new conventions will start to fill the void. What does this tell us? Out of three conventions here, one will definitely survive, another has a good possibility and the third will most likely fade into the sunset. Like anything, being able to change is key to survival. What is more of an injustice, a handful of conventions fold or players being denied play opportunities? Now, maybe 1/10 of the LG people get to play any particular mod (and I'm just guessing on that) due to the fact that it can only be run in the region for which it was written. So now you have all the time and effort a writer goes thru along with the triad and all the playtesters is only playable by a fraction of the audience. Regional conventions expand that number but by what percentage? Very slim. With all play, players across the globe can experience a mod. As to the "we can all sit around a play all weekend", that is tru. So tell me, how many weekends have you and your friends just sat around and played nothing but LG mods? How many times has the rest of the LG players done this? I'd say it is rare. I mean my regular gaming group has even of a time just trying to coordinate a single mod. To sum up this long post, all play is not the end of the world. There will be consequences but you cannot have change without them. Without change, we stagnate.
The_Jester 09-07-07, 07:12 PM	For LG I play in Zief. That's western Canada and an area probably larger than much of the Continental US. Now in LFR my region is the entire damn country. Which hurts as my city has gone from being one of the big three in the region and center of one of the four or five cons to probably somewhere at the very bottom of the Top Ten list of Canadian cities. We in Western Canada can pretty much kiss good-bye to any representation in the region and mods. The region is going to be dominated by the East. I was planning on playing LFR and possibly getting involved with writing or planning: anything to help the new campaign and possibly add my teen-tiny mark on the world. But I know my chances of even getting short-listed for authorship are now essentially nil. I'm not calling "doom" just voicing disappointment.
smerwin29 09-07-07, 07:21 PM	At first I was nervous about the ability to play any region's adventures anywhere exactly because of how it might affect conventions. But then I heard a few numbers thrown around, and I thought about it a little bit, and now I am less nervous. Plus, having worked with Chris Tulach, I know that something will be done to help draw players to conventions at least a bit. But here are my thoughts on conventions. First, the numbers: 1. Convention play makes up just about 10% of total RPGA play. 2. Convention play supposedly accounts for about the same percentage of new player sign up in the RPGA. 3. Most convention play for LG is either at events where only LG is played, or it is at a multigame convention but shoved off in the corner where non-RPGA players would never wander by and get curious. Knowing just that and nothing else, and discounting for a moment the notion that "a sense of community" is only fostered significantly through conventions, I would WANT to kill conventions if I was in the business of bringing new members and new blood into the RPGA. (I am not saying that anyone at WotC wants to kill conventions, as I am sure they do not.) But follow this: I would guess that a lot of people play at conventions because they do not have a group locally to play. So they travel to get in RPGA games. In terms of the RPGA, it would be better if those people, instead of traveling to conventions, worked to start up a group of players locally, particularly at a local gaming store. That way they are drawing potential new players not just to the RPGA, but they are taking players who might already be into gaming of a different sort (who frequent a game store) and are exposing them to D&D. If those people who go to cons but don't have a home/game store group could be turned into people who start their own group with non-RPGA people, that is huge. All that said, I truly hope that we do still see convention play flourish in the RPGA. I have run conventions in the past, including quite large ones that were seating 20+ tables per slot. There is a great deal of fun in conventions FOR SOME PLAYERS. But we do have to face reality in that most of the players in the RPGA are happy with their local groups, use the online medium to fill that sense of the community with the rest of the players, and are unbelievably stoked that they are going to get to play a veritable bucketful of adventures in LFR without having to leave their town.
Beowulfe 09-07-07, 07:21 PM	So of the conventions, how many were drawing huge amounts of people from other regions to play? I am still not understanding why it would be dominated by the east. Are you saying everyone from your area is now only going to attend the conventions in the east and abandon local? I am going from an area where I can play in three different regions than my own within a 4-5 hour road trip down to 1 region that encompasses it all. Are you thinking your city will no longer have any representation because there are fewer people organizing it? That goes true today. Any city or state risks not having representation if there isn't a triad member from that city/state. But then that comes down to making contact with any triads and trying to establish a connection.
jhorred 09-07-07, 08:43 PM	For LG I play in Zief. That's western Canada and an area probably larger than much of the Continental US. Now in LFR my region is the entire damn country. Which hurts as my city has gone from being one of the big three in the region and center of one of the four or five cons to probably somewhere at the very bottom of the Top Ten list of Canadian cities. We in Western Canada can pretty much kiss good-bye to any representation in the region and mods. The region is going to be dominated by the East. I was planning on playing LFR and possibly getting involved with writing or planning: anything to help the new campaign and possibly add my teen-tiny mark on the world. But I know my chances of even getting short-listed for authorship are now essentially nil. I'm not calling "doom" just voicing disappointment. Doesn't hurt to try. I turned an idea I thought that I was afraid some people would think lame into an intro mod and so far people have liked it.
Reneshat 09-08-07, 12:27 AM	My biggest worry over the larger regions isn't convention play, but rather the workload for the administrators, and the sense of individuality and uniqueness each region has for LG, when you can play any module anywhere.
LGMoses 09-08-07, 08:01 PM	I would hope that more mods are going to be provided for these larger regions than we used to get for one region. As I said in my thread, I think maybe they'll divide us into "Unapproachable East" and "Shining South". Travel time being a new admin might be a pain in the butt though. Unless they could use Dnd Insider to appear via internet. Travel gets harder every year with gas prices going up, especially for those of us who work in retail.
The_Jester 09-09-07, 12:27 AM	Doesn't hurt to try. I turned an idea I thought that I was afraid some people would think lame into an intro mod and so far people have liked it. Fewer and larger regions likely does means more mods. However, if we can play each every mod then there won't need to be many. Even 2-3 mods per region and a few "Cores" likely means dozens of mods and easily enough for a couple days of play each month. There's going to be some nasty competition and as the western provinces are always ignored in Canada we can kiss our contribution good-bye. And you can bet that the 'big' cons will be in Toronto and Montreal with maybe one in Vancouver.
mmockus 09-09-07, 10:35 AM	Fewer and larger regions likely does means more mods. However, if we can play each every mod then there won't need to be many. Even 2-3 mods per region and a few "Cores" likely means dozens of mods and easily enough for a couple days of play each month. There's going to be some nasty competition and as the western provinces are always ignored in Canada we can kiss our contribution good-bye. I'm having trouble understanding why anyone would think they'd be ignored. Volunteers are a rare thing to come across. Lots of people say they want to do it but few follow through. I would assume anyone who wants to volunteer and actually follows through will be used. Willingness and ability has nothing to do with where you live. And you can bet that the 'big' cons will be in Toronto and Montreal with maybe one in Vancouver. What is your definition of these 'big' cons? A couple things that determine con size is accessibility and quality of the show. I would assume Toronto and montreal have conventions now, as do you in your area. How will this be any different? The triad Event Coordinator will be responsible for supporting ALL the conventions in the region, and doing what they can to make them successful.
MatteBlack 09-09-07, 11:22 AM	Maybe not. However, it is in WotC's best interest not to do things that they know will kill a vast majority of conventions outright. I don't think anyone "knows" this to be true. Certainly, cons depending on people driven to go to a con to play out of region material appear to be losing a draw but, there are still things like interactives which really need to be held in a con setting and the ability to play alot of mods with a greater variety of players that will remain draws. There is also the possibility that with greater access to mods from all the regions that players will be more likely to play that small nearby regional con that they would have skipped because it had nothing but the interactive to offer that they hadn't played. Overall, I think the decisions being made are good for the campaign even if not for the cons metioned but, honestly, I think the good of the players and the campaign should come first. I think the changes will better deliver to players what they want in a more accessible fashion. This will likely strengthen the campaign and bring in more players. Hopefully, attracting a smaller percentage of a larger campaign population will benefit the smaller cons instead of having them depending on regional play opportunity restrictions for their survival. I too am in Bissell and look forward to many of the cons in the OP but, why should we have to endure travel we might not want to just for access to out of region material. Lee
The_Jester 09-09-07, 04:53 PM	I'm having trouble understanding why anyone would think they'd be ignored. Volunteers are a rare thing to come across. Lots of people say they want to do it but few follow through. I would assume anyone who wants to volunteer and actually follows through will be used. Willingness and ability has nothing to do with where you live. In Canada we've gone from three regions (and a shared metaregion) to a single region. So unless each region gets to write 28 mods each year or unless alot of people don't make the move there's going to be a very sudden and very sharp spike in competition. What is your definition of these 'big' cons? A couple things that determine con size is accessibility and quality of the show. I would assume Toronto and montreal have conventions now, as do you in your area. How will this be any different? The triad Event Coordinator will be responsible for supporting ALL the conventions in the region, and doing what they can to make them successful. A con with a module premier and an interactive. Again, my city has just gone from big 3 in my region to probably #7 or #8. Unless we have a half-dozen or more interactive to play with each year our "con" will just be a big gameday with a wad of mods that have already premiered elsewhere. Why is someone going to travel 171 miles to play games they could play locally at the same time? Keep in mind that this is the shortest the travel time is going to get (Edmonton to Calgary). If we're heading West it goes up to 507 miles and east it's 1695 miles. And that's all the same region. If we want to pop over to a new region the closest big city is likely Seattle which is 562 miles.
mmockus 09-10-07, 12:22 AM	In Canada we've gone from three regions (and a shared metaregion) to a single region. So unless each region gets to write 28 mods each year or unless alot of people don't make the move there's going to be a very sudden and very sharp spike in competition. Competition? Good. That should lead to much higher quality adventures, as well as authors. I know every region has had to fight with authors missing deadlines, dropping out, or just not writing something that is easily usable, comprimises being made, and adventures not being good, late, or having other issues. With more potential authors, the triads will be able to choose the best authors. Location has nothing to do with this, it is just as likely with such a small community, that these authors will be from the remote corners of the region. I'm not sure anyone is very aware, but the # of adventures put out is only limited by the author pool and time to edit in LG. Provided LFR does not change this, it will be a good situation. A con with a module premier and an interactive. Again, my city has just gone from big 3 in my region to probably #7 or #8. Unless we have a half-dozen or more interactive to play with each year our "con" will just be a big gameday with a wad of mods that have already premiered elsewhere. Why is someone going to travel 171 miles to play games they could play locally at the same time? Keep in mind that this is the shortest the travel time is going to get (Edmonton to Calgary). If we're heading West it goes up to 507 miles and east it's 1695 miles. And that's all the same region. If we want to pop over to a new region the closest big city is likely Seattle which is 562 miles. Just because it premieres somewhere else doesn't necessarily hurt your attendance, especially if the premiere is a vast difference away. If I have a con 300 miles away in June premiering a mod, but another running it in August that is 30 minutes away. I'm going to the close convention. The change in the LFR rules, open out-of-region play, not just the expansion of regions is going to change the convention scene. But an assumption of how right now is lacking facts. There will be changes, conventions that adapt to the changes and have strong organization will survive, new conventions will sprout, and others will go away. This happens now, even without a campaign change. So I wouldn't get to down on the campaign and start to think on what can be done to enhance your local convention when the changes do come.
jhorred 09-10-07, 02:00 PM	Fewer and larger regions likely does means more mods. However, if we can play each every mod then there won't need to be many. Even 2-3 mods per region and a few "Cores" likely means dozens of mods and easily enough for a couple days of play each month. There's going to be some nasty competition and as the western provinces are always ignored in Canada we can kiss our contribution good-bye. And you can bet that the 'big' cons will be in Toronto and Montreal with maybe one in Vancouver. Why would the cons that you currently enjoy go away? The geography of Canada isn't going to change with the geography of the campaign. If there were enough players and GMs to support local cons, then they'll still be there when the new campaign kicks off. The local organizers will just have to work with a different person to get support from the 'triad'. How hard would it be for them to email the con only stuff they are playing in the east?
The_Jester 09-10-07, 08:05 PM	Competition? Good. That should lead to much higher quality adventures, as well as authors. I know every region has had to fight with authors missing deadlines, dropping out, or just not writing something that is easily usable, comprimises being made, and adventures not being good, late, or having other issues. With more potential authors, the triads will be able to choose the best authors. Location has nothing to do with this, it is just as likely with such a small community, that these authors will be from the remote corners of the region. Because administrators would never, ever go with the writers they know, their friends or established writer's friends and there has never been a case of a couple people dominating a region because they were a tight group that had all the connections... Just because it premieres somewhere else doesn't necessarily hurt your attendance, especially if the premiere is a vast difference away. If I have a con 300 miles away in June premiering a mod, but another running it in August that is 30 minutes away. I'm going to the close convention. Yeah, exactly. If the choice is a con 3 hours away (the closest distance) or the gameday across town but both have the exact same content no one is going to chose the con. Unless there's special content at the con (interactives) that won't be elsewhere. If there were enough players and GMs to support local cons, then they'll still be there when the new campaign kicks off. The local organizers will just have to work with a different person to get support from the 'triad'. How hard would it be for them to email the con only stuff they are playing in the east? True, but if it's not hard to email why would anyone go to the con out east? Everyone would stay exactly where they were, not travel, and just have larger than average gamedays, nicknamed cons.
Grimslade2001 09-10-07, 11:41 PM	True, but if it's not hard to email why would anyone go to the con out east? Everyone would stay exactly where they were, not travel, and just have larger than average gamedays, nicknamed cons. I think this is exactly where LFR is headed. Big local gamedays will replace the mid size Con. The majority of players don't go to Cons now, why would LFR be any different? The trick will be fostering a regional feel without needing Cons or one-shot battle interactives. IC forums are good start but only work for some players. A frequently updated website for regions helps get the information of a Realm to the players without having to wade through a hundred or so posts in a forum. An active and communicative triad and global admin staff will be a huge aid to a regional feel. Cons that have good judges and dedicated staff will survive. They will draw players with new treats and offerings. Judges for the local gamedays will need to play somewhere to take back to the locals, otherwise they eat the mods. Cons will live or die on the 10% that go now. Brian
RanielK 09-11-07, 02:32 PM	Our con support administrator would have to attend a con every other weekend instead of 8 or so a year, to keep up the support our three regions have had, and I am afraid we may not see a volunteer with that much free time.. I'm pretty sure we won't have the personal feel of running into our triad at the local game day with the workloads theyll have.. Believe me, if we have our way, she won't mind (and neither will her husband :D). Now, all I have to do is make sure my wife gets off her duff and sends in her submission soon.
ankhwearer 09-11-07, 04:02 PM	Even if attendance for most conventions was only 25% out-of-state players, can an LG-specific convention survive on those? Will not a convention that wasn't LG-specific, but had a good-sized LG presence, suffer for their lack? Solution: recruit more local players into the RPGA. In fact, recruit more people into D&D 4e. Isn't that both in the interests of the RPGA, WotC and individual players looking for more play opportunities?
MichaelAhlf 09-11-07, 04:21 PM	Solution: recruit more local players into the RPGA. In fact, recruit more people into D&D 4e. Isn't that both in the interests of the RPGA, WotC and individual players looking for more play opportunities? Indeed. Because "Hey, all the oldtimers are leaving because they hate what we did to it, why don't you come try it out" is a great sales pitch.
KarmaInferno 09-11-07, 04:25 PM	Worked for LG, didn't it? -karma
Mithreinmaethor 09-11-07, 06:20 PM	Indeed. Because "Hey, all the oldtimers are leaving because they hate what we did to it, why don't you come try it out" is a great sales pitch. I think that your market research is lacking here. I am an old timer, since 1976, and have lived thru the 11 different versions/subsets of this game. Heck I have been thru several versions/subsets of several different RPGs. As my location states I am in Dyvers. I also play in the Bandit Kingdoms quite often. I have spoke to almost all of my friends from LG and only 1 of them has stated they wont move to LR, but even that was a half hearted statement. We all know your distaste and disgust of WOTC's decisions regarding 4e and LG. But yet you continue to post baseless arguments with veiled attacks on WOTC in them, or well not so veiled since you BOLD them. I would assume you are just trying to see how far you can push the envelope before they ban you. Until any of us playtest the new version, and we get further documentation on how all things will work in LR, negative baseless speculation is unwarranted.
Grimslade2001 09-11-07, 08:59 PM	If you're quite done trying to flame me now, try some actual thoughts/logic/facts... People in glass houses and all that. Old Time Greyhawk fans may very well not choose to play in LFR. Of course, FR fans who left over the Living City disaster might come back, so I'll call it a draw. Deciding not to join a campaign based on setting preference makes sense to me. If Greyhawk is the flavor you like grab some like minded people and run a home campaign. Its what the FR fans have been doing since LC folded, time to give them a chance to shine. I'm an old Greyhawker and an old FR fan but mainly I like to play D&D. I will join LFR and I will play the heck out of LG until 12/31/08. In 6 years or so when LFR ends I will probably join Living Eberron while drinking my Metamucil and Mountain Dew. Old time players need fiber during Midnight Madness. Brian Mahony
UMiskatonic 09-11-07, 10:59 PM	You know, there is a potential up-side as well. In my area, Chicago, we have a number of cons/year, and I've driven to a number more in Milwaukee, southern IL, Ohio, Michigan and Minnesota. Honestly, I'd rather play two games than drive four hours and play one game. With more adventures, I can do exactly that. We may very well move in a decentralized direction, with bigger gamedays taking the place of massive conventions. I say good. Because that means two things. 1) FREE. Cons charge me money. Playing in some guys' apartment generally doesn't. 2) GAME EVERY WEEKEND! I don't have to wait for some ridiculous con months away, I can just check the local calendar, and hop on the bus. That's fantastic. With bigger regions, I might have to drive a bit, but there will always be something when I've got a free weekend, because now there are more people in my region.
berpo 09-20-07, 08:24 PM	competition and as the western provinces are always ignored in Canada we can kiss our contribution good-bye. And you can bet that the 'big' cons will be in Toronto and Montreal with maybe one in Vancouver. Hi Jester I'm from quebec and I'm concerned too... there is no real big con in quebec and also not so many players. The language is a small problem that makes some people to avoid cons from quebec. When you talk of the EAST you should only mention Toronto area... this is where all the big cons and good stuff will take place. and it's about 10 hours of driving to get there. Marc
LGMoses 09-20-07, 11:35 PM	Maybe they could have incentives to play adventures in your region of residence. Then, there could also be incentives to play mods in a different regions. For instance, you get X for playing your character in the Southwest play region where you live. If you want you can play a Northwest adventure in the Southwest, BUT you won't get Y. If you travel up there. You get Y. Its hard to come up with good incentives for me rite now for 4e because we don't know what they're going to do with magic items and other stuff like that.
Madfox11 09-21-07, 04:29 AM	Because administrators would never, ever go with the writers they know, their friends or established writer's friends and there has never been a case of a couple people dominating a region because they were a tight group that had all the connections... Assuming I correctly sense a lot of irony in this statement, I would say that chances of this happening actually is reduced with a bigger sized region. Bigger regions mean a bigger choice for those on top to choose from, and if you take a look at the submission forms you would note that skill is a very bid decisive factor. Mind you, *most* accusations of favoratism and anger directed at these supposed groups that I know off are not very well founded and based on an incomplete picture.
TheBlackFlail 09-22-07, 12:25 AM	Assuming I correctly sense a lot of irony in this statement, I would say that chances of this happening actually is reduced with a bigger sized region. Bigger regions mean a bigger choice for those on top to choose from, and if you take a look at the submission forms you would note that skill is a very bid decisive factor. Mind you, *most* accusations of favoratism and anger directed at these supposed groups that I know off are not very well founded and based on an incomplete picture. As you are the Circle rep for Europe in LG, I think you are missing a lot of the picture, as most regions in Europe don't seem to be overflowing with people trying to "Break In" to the power structure, so to speak. Many of your regions don't always fill out all of their available mod slots in a given year, from what I have seen. Here in the US, there are quite a few regions where there are people trying to get a chance to write mods, and they just don't have a shot. The triads for their region already have a full lineup planned out for the entire length of the current plot arc, and writers lined up to write the mods well in advance. New people trying to get in on the action just don't stand a chance. The worry these people have with larger regions is that there will be fewer total mods (for the entire campaign as a whole, not necessarily by region) written, thus decreasing their chances of being selected to write an adventure. I don't think that the larger talent pool of bigger regions is going to alleviate this problem, as you feel it is. Since there will still be only three admins per region (and therefore fewer total admins). Those admins are very likely to be selected from people within the existing RPGA power structure, since the people already in the power structure are the ones accumulating the "job experience" that is being looked for. These new admins are no less likely than anybody else to develop a circle of preferred writers, since that's just the easy thing to do. Also, it is entirely possible that there will now be more writers in an expanded region vying to write fewer mods. All of the worries that would-be writers (and would-be future admins, since most admins come from the ranks of the writers and con organizers), depend, of course, on how many mods there will be per region in LFR. If there is a substantial increase in the number of mods each region is allotted per year, then many of their concerns will be moot. Also, one thing I think has a potential to help is if people from any region are allowed to write mods for any region, then regions which aren't bursting at the seams with people waiting to write mods can draw on the talent of the regions which have too many would-be writers.
WizO_Shadow 09-22-07, 05:33 PM	Knock off the character insinuations, trolling, & baiting please. I've cleaned it up so it can get back on topic. Happy Posting! WizO_Shadow
Madfox11 09-24-07, 04:03 AM	I don't think that the larger talent pool of bigger regions is going to alleviate this problem, as you feel it is. Since there will still be only three admins per region (and therefore fewer total admins). Those admins are very likely to be selected from people within the existing RPGA power structure, since the people already in the power structure are the ones accumulating the "job experience" that is being looked for. These new admins are no less likely than anybody else to develop a circle of preferred writers, since that's just the easy thing to do. Also, it is entirely possible that there will now be more writers in an expanded region vying to write fewer mods. One of the reasons the amount of regions is reduced is due to a world wide problem in finding and keeping vollunteers. The regions in the States are able to keep the three slots filled, but my impression from Chris Tulach and my fellow Circle Members is that it was no easy task by any means and the turn overrate is rather high as well. Of course, their might be no such problems with authors, but I am not too sure about it. In Europe we have tried to recruit American authors, and while we have had some success, even more prospecting authors never ever went beyond the write a summary part of an adventure. Sure, writing for a region on the other side of the globe might not be as fun as seeing your own adventure in use in your local convention, but it does allow you to gain some much needed experience and above all credentials. All of the worries that would-be writers (and would-be future admins, since most admins come from the ranks of the writers and con organizers), depend, of course, on how many mods there will be per region in LFR. If there is a substantial increase in the number of mods each region is allotted per year, then many of their concerns will be moot. Well, the idea of LR is to put less pressure on the pool of vollunteers, so I wouldn't expect more adventures per region in LR. Also, one thing I think has a potential to help is if people from any region are allowed to write mods for any region, then regions which aren't bursting at the seams with people waiting to write mods can draw on the talent of the regions which have too many would-be writers. You do realize that people can already write for other regions in LG as well? A couple of Americans and Australians have been writing adventures for European regions on a relatively regular basis already.
smerwin29 09-24-07, 07:39 AM	In Europe we have tried to recruit American authors, and while we have had some success, even more prospecting authors never ever went beyond the write a summary part of an adventure. Let me quote this and add my experiences. When I was the Plots Triad for Keoland early in the LG campaign, this was most definitely true for me. I was open to new authors, and I took a great deal of time working with new authors. A large percentage of prospective authors never completed work past an initial summary or proposal. And one other thing: it is a huge amount of work to edit an RPGA adventure. In most cases, it takes me longer to edit an adventure than to write one. So before too many cries of favoritism or "cronyism" ring forth, let's just say that when you find someone who writes fun adventures, can be counted on to get the work done on time, doesn't need to be heavily supervised, and creates a well-written draft, you use that person as a resource. Larger regions should mean better adventures. While it may be harder for writers to "break in," truly talented writers should still be able to get their work into the campaign.
Nolwelen 09-24-07, 09:04 PM	Well what drew my attention the last time I took a look on the LFR regions map was that you put Cuba into one region. I wondered, since that implies that the people of Cuba play D&D, has the FBI contacted WotC and informed them that legal proceedings have been initialized against the company, since WotC violated the embargo? Well may be this region includes only Guantanamo Bay. ;) You know I cant help it, but somehow I got this picture in my head of Fidel Castro behind the Dungeon Master's Screen and It doesnt leave me anymore. :D
catsclaw 09-27-07, 10:52 PM	Well what drew my attention the last time I took a look on the LFR regions map was that you put Cuba into one region. I wondered, since that implies that the people of Cuba play D&D, has the FBI contacted WotC and informed them that legal proceedings have been initialized against the company, since WotC violated the embargo?I'm pretty sure the play numbers from Cuba are effectively zero. Be that as it may, a Cuban could either 1) fly to Mexico and buy the books there or 2) download the SRD and run games using that. Neither would violate the embargo.
catsclaw 09-27-07, 10:58 PM	You do realize that people can already write for other regions in LG as well? A couple of Americans and Australians have been writing adventures for European regions on a relatively regular basis already.For me, the inability to run or play mods outside the region I'm in, coupled with the low play numbers for regions which really need writers, has discouraged me from writing for other regions. It takes me between 40 and 60 hours to write an LG mod. Maybe I'm exceptionally slow, but if I'm going to put that amount of time and energy into it, I'd like to be able to run the thing a couple of times. That's (apparently) not going to be an issue for LR, which is good.
JamesMaissen 09-28-07, 07:19 AM	Well, the idea of LR is to put less pressure on the pool of vollunteers, so I wouldn't expect more adventures per region in LR. Perhaps it's my lack of knowledge here, so please forgive me, but wouldn't increasing (rather than decreasing) the number of volunteers be the better solution to this? You are essentially having one 'triad' do the job that was done by many triads in LG. This seems like a major mistake. It also separates them from those they will represent unless they plan on a lot of travel, which I don't see being as prevalent in LFR. The worries of favoritism and the like I feel will bear fruit as it will be harder for triads to get to know their region fully. I would think that for you to really manage a metaregion in LG that you would need more of a staff. And then when inevitably real life hits a member or two of the staff they don't feel they need to withdraw from their position because of it (which I'm sure is a good amount of LG triad churn). As it is I think each Circle member picked up a mod editor (i.e. metaregional coordinator), but I would think that seeing the difference that such a person makes would encourage you to expand this rather than curtail it. But again, I'm uninformed, so if I'm way off base here, please forgive me, James
KarmaInferno 09-28-07, 05:18 PM	I thing the meaning is that each Triad will have access to a MUCH larger pool of volunteers, and thus be able to get a lot more done without having to put all the work on the same few people. I know in the LG regions I play in, there are plenty of people that SAY they would like to help, but I only ever see the same few names over and over as authors/editors for adventures and meta-org documents. -karma
The_Jester 09-29-07, 12:21 PM	Because administrators would never, ever go with the writers they know, their friends or established writer's friends and there has never been a case of a couple people dominating a region because they were a tight group that had all the connections... Assuming I correctly sense a lot of irony in this statement, I would say that chances of this happening actually is reduced with a bigger sized region. Bigger regions mean a bigger choice for those on top to choose from, and if you take a look at the submission forms you would note that skill is a very bid decisive factor. Mind you, *most* accusations of favouritism and anger directed at these supposed groups that I know off are not very well founded and based on an incomplete picture. I’m no so much suggesting favouritism as much as saying regional administrators are going to stick with the devil they know, so to speak. If you’re a member of the Triad (or whatever they’re going to be called) and you need a writer you can: pick one from the long list of unknown people that are asking to write, go with a someone who has written before, or go with a friend. Most often the established writer is going to win. Writing skill is also one of the harder skills to judge. I doubt you can look at what I’ve written here and decide if I have the skills necessary to be a good LG/LFR module author. This makes choosing from the unknowns, even if they submits a sample, a little difficult. And with your opinion of so many writers being equal it isn’t hard for any small difference to completely tip the scale in favour of one, such as an established writer saying “You should get X to write, he’s a friend and I know he can do it.” I don't think that the larger talent pool of bigger regions is going to alleviate this problem, as you feel it is. Since there will still be only three admins per region (and therefore fewer total admins). Those admins are very likely to be selected from people within the existing RPGA power structure, since the people already in the power structure are the ones accumulating the "job experience" that is being looked for. These new admins are no less likely than anybody else to develop a circle of preferred writers, since that's just the easy thing to do. Also, it is entirely possible that there will now be more writers in an expanded region vying to write fewer mods. All of the worries that would-be writers (and would-be future admins, since most admins come from the ranks of the writers and con organizers), depend, of course, on how many mods there will be per region in LFR. If there is a substantial increase in the number of mods each region is allotted per year, then many of their concerns will be moot. Also, one thing I think has a potential to help is if people from any region are allowed to write mods for any region, then regions which aren't bursting at the seams with people waiting to write mods can draw on the talent of the regions which have too many would-be writers. Black Flail pretty much sums up some of my concerns. I know in my region there’s a good, solid group of 15-20 writers and at least 5 people with Triad experience, and Zief has only been around for less than three years. Now, Eastern Canada, which has been its own region for longer, likely also has a substantial number of past authors and triad members. So if anyone with LG experience becomes the adventure/author administrator they’re going to have three tiers to choose from. 1) Writers whose work they have read or played and people who have written for them before. 2) Writers whose work they have not read or played who are likely from a different LG region. 3) Writers who have never written for LG or LFR before. The best way to decide who should be the writer of any given mod is to compare portfolios and writing samples and then have a group of candidates all submit adventure outlines to compare who would best be suited for the module. But this would take a lot of time and energy and most administrators, who are volunteers with lives and families and are just doing the RPGA on the side, are not likely to give up that much time to read a couple dozen writing submissions and outlines. So, first, they’re going to chose the authors they know. Then, if they have more mods available than local willing (and experienced) writers, they’ll pick authors from the ranks of unfamiliar experienced writers. That is, unless something sways them to an unknown rookie. Like a recommendation from an experienced writer. If the total number of modules produced each year is greater than the output of LG than there shouldn’t be a problem as more and more outside and new writers will be drawn into the fold. However, if there are fewer mods produced – a very likely situation given you will be able to play out-of-region mods – then there will always be far more experienced and willing writers than there are adventures to write. I mean, there are 31 regions producing a total of 248 modules (give or take) each and every year in addition to Cores, and Metaregionals (20 and 25 respectively) for a whopping total of 293 mods. At least. There are now 12 regions and, in theory, you can play every mod (or so we’ve heard). Even if you manage to get through a grueling number or adventures each and every year, say one a week, you’d only be able to play 52 mods. So, really, writing any more than 60 adventures would be a waste as it would be hard for someone to play them all. Now, assuming the number of Core mods is halved that leaves 50 adventures for the regions or, roughly, 4 a year. Heck, even if the admin sticks to established local writers they’ve worked with before there’s going to be some nasty competition. It’s quite likely that there will be fewer regional mods produced each year, even if the average player will be able to play more adventures. Competition will rise and unless an administrator is willing to read through dozens of submissions they’re simply going to go with people they’ve worked with before Unless they do something like the DM Mark system where individual local DMs just write their own adventures with set rewards. But that’s hardly a “Living” campaign.