Fix HP Disparity [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fix HP Disparity [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Solaria
03-05-08, 05:50 PM There is a major disparity in HP gained by the various classes.

All classes but arcane casters had their HP rounded up. Rogues (d6, 3.5 avg) got 4, clerics (d8, 4.5 avg) got 5, fighters (d10, avg 5.5) got 6, and barbarians (d12, avg 6.5) got 8. Arcane classes (d4, avg 2.5) got only two.

Barbarians are 1.5 hp/level over average, most other classes are .5 hp/level over average, but arcane classes are .5 hp/level under average. By 10th level barbarians are 15 hp over average, fighters, clerics, and rogues are 5 over average, but arcane casters are 5 points under average.

This seems seriously unfair, and unbalanced, to me. Arcane classes are already the most fragile, why are they further discriminated against? The way the rules stand, if you don't put any points into con at character generation you have 12 HP at 10th level.

It is interesting though, that arcane prestige classes gain 1/2 of the maximum, plus 1, per level. So a d4 class gains 3 hp/level. It is only psion, sorceror, and wizard that get 2 hp/level.

I'd also like to point out that according to the character generation rules, 1st level characters don't get any HP. I presume they get max at first level, but the rules don't actually say so.

From Xen'drik campaign:
Step 1: Check With Dungeon Master
Step 2: Choose a Faction
Step 3: Choose Your First Expansion Item
Step 4: Roll Ability Scores (doesn't include HP, because you don't have a class yet)
Step 5: Choose Your Class and Race
I looked over this, it doesn't mention HP. It talks about HP for animal companions, but strangely it doesn't talk about familiars. More of the anti-arcane prejudice I think.
Step 6: Select Skills
Step 7: Select a Feat
Step 8: Select Equipment
Step 9: Details, Details, Details (cash on hand and region of origin)
Step 10: Report Your Character Online
boolean
03-05-08, 06:00 PM Living Forgotten Realms will be played using the 4th edition rules.

Nobody rolls for HP/level in 4e.

Perhaps you meant to post this in the Xen'drik Expeditions forum?
http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=638
Keith53
03-05-08, 06:04 PM The RPGA will use 4E D&D per Chris Perkins (WotC R&D) at DDXP Brand Meeting. The previous posting refers to numbers used for past RPGA campaigns set in 3.5E. I can't explain how the 4E HPs are derived as they fall under my NDA, but as those players of the 4E Previews at DDXP know, they are different. Unless WotC gives another teaser, you will have to wait for June 6, 2008 PHB release. Of course, I can't guarantee you will like the 4E HPs, but see my first sentence.

Keith Hoffman
LFR USA-NC Co-Writing Director (Waterdeep)
Iswald
03-05-08, 11:06 PM There is a major disparity in HP gained by the various classes.

All classes but arcane casters had their HP rounded up. Rogues (d6, 3.5 avg) got 4, clerics (d8, 4.5 avg) got 5, fighters (d10, avg 5.5) got 6, and barbarians (d12, avg 6.5) got 8. Arcane classes (d4, avg 2.5) got only two.

Barbarians are 1.5 hp/level over average, most other classes are .5 hp/level over average, but arcane classes are .5 hp/level under average. By 10th level barbarians are 15 hp over average, fighters, clerics, and rogues are 5 over average, but arcane casters are 5 points under average.

This seems seriously unfair, and unbalanced, to me. Arcane classes are already the most fragile, why are they further discriminated against? The way the rules stand, if you don't put any points into con at character generation you have 12 HP at 10th level.

It is interesting though, that arcane prestige classes gain 1/2 of the maximum, plus 1, per level. So a d4 class gains 3 hp/level. It is only psion, sorceror, and wizard that get 2 hp/level.

I honestly don't even understand this argument in 3.5 terms. If wizards get 1/2 their HD + 1 HP/level in LG, then they are getting 3 out of a possible 4. In other words 75% of the possible HP. On the other hand, barbarians also got 1/2 their HD + 1 HP/level, which is 7 out of a possible 12. In short, they only receive 58.3% of their possible HPs. To me, it seems obvious that classes with smaller HD come out ahead of classes with larger HD. Wizards have nothing to complain about in this department.

Where do you even get this '2' from? HPs aren't rounded down. Regardless, HPs in 4th ed are different. At first level every class will have many more HPs. If you disbelieve, do a search for scans of the character sheets from this last weekend.
pedr
03-06-08, 02:49 AM I honestly don't even understand this argument in 3.5 terms. If wizards get 1/2 their HD + 1 HP/level in LG, then they are getting 3 out of a possible 4. In other words 75% of the possible HP. On the other hand, barbarians also got 1/2 their HD + 1 HP/level, which is 7 out of a possible 12. In short, they only receive 58.3% of their possible HPs. To me, it seems obvious that classes with smaller HD come out ahead of classes with larger HD. Wizards have nothing to complain about in this department.

Where do you even get this '2' from? HPs aren't rounded down. Regardless, HPs in 4th ed are different. At first level every class will have many more HPs. If you disbelieve, do a search for scans of the character sheets from this last weekend.The OP is discussing the fixed hit points in Xen'drik Expeditions, which uses a different rule from the one in LG.

It is off-topic for this area and irrelevant in the light of the 4E rules which do not (it seems) have any randomness in hit-points.
Iswald
03-06-08, 09:24 AM The OP is discussing the fixed hit points in Xen'drik Expeditions, which uses a different rule from the one in LG.

People still play that?
smerwin29
03-06-08, 11:39 AM People still play that?

Absolutely! And I know both of them! [Puts Iswald on "people to watch out for list . . .]

:ayyyy!:

While obviously the D&D Campaigns do not rival Living Greyhawk in terms of play numbers, Xen'drik Expeditions is doing very well , and it brings to the RPGA table gamers who are not interested in the Living style of play.

Shawn
XE Crimson Codex Factionmaster
LFR Global Admin
Dempster
03-06-08, 12:01 PM T
I looked over this, it doesn't mention HP. It talks about HP for animal companions, but strangely it doesn't talk about familiars. More of the anti-arcane prejudice I think.

Familiar hit points are a core rule so they do not need to be addressed in the document. according to the familiars section in the sorcerer entry in the PHB(A familiars hit points are equal to the 1/2 the masters HPs rounded down, minimum of one.)

It is likely the D&D 4E hit points will be calulated using the same as Saga edition of Star Wars.
Fighter types 30HP+con bonus at first level
Clerics 24HP+con
Rouges 18+con
Wizards 12+con
In other words , triple max HD + con at first level
Every level after that you get 1/2 your HD+1+CON

I am basing this on 2 things. The admission in Races and Classes that Star Wars Saga Edition rules were taken from a play test version of D&D 4.0 and the discussion on death and dying from Dragon.
bronzmonkee
03-07-08, 12:43 AM While obviously the D&D Campaigns do not rival Living Greyhawk in terms of play numbers, Xen'drik Expeditions is doing very well , and it brings to the RPGA table gamers who are not interested in the Living style of play.

Or the people who like playing both :D
boolean
03-07-08, 03:45 AM The Rogue preview on the WotC site specifies that Rogues get 12 + their Constitution score* HP at 1st level, and 5HP per level gained.

(Note: that's Con _score_ not modifier. So a Dwarven Rogue with 16 Con starts with 28HP.)

So, either all HP are fixed for all classes, or only some classes have fixed HP. I consider the latter very unlikely.
Iswald
03-08-08, 08:50 AM Absolutely! And I know both of them!

...

Shawn
XE Crimson Codex Factionmaster
LFR Global Admin

You might be onto something there. ;) I notice that the Crimson Codex board is the most active of all the factions. :D

After I made my original post, it occurred to me that XE might handle HP differently than LG. XE hasn't been offered near me, to my knowledge.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Solaria 03-05-08, 05:50 PM	There is a major disparity in HP gained by the various classes. All classes but arcane casters had their HP rounded up. Rogues (d6, 3.5 avg) got 4, clerics (d8, 4.5 avg) got 5, fighters (d10, avg 5.5) got 6, and barbarians (d12, avg 6.5) got 8. Arcane classes (d4, avg 2.5) got only two. Barbarians are 1.5 hp/level over average, most other classes are .5 hp/level over average, but arcane classes are .5 hp/level under average. By 10th level barbarians are 15 hp over average, fighters, clerics, and rogues are 5 over average, but arcane casters are 5 points under average. This seems seriously unfair, and unbalanced, to me. Arcane classes are already the most fragile, why are they further discriminated against? The way the rules stand, if you don't put any points into con at character generation you have 12 HP at 10th level. It is interesting though, that arcane prestige classes gain 1/2 of the maximum, plus 1, per level. So a d4 class gains 3 hp/level. It is only psion, sorceror, and wizard that get 2 hp/level. I'd also like to point out that according to the character generation rules, 1st level characters don't get any HP. I presume they get max at first level, but the rules don't actually say so. From Xen'drik campaign: Step 1: Check With Dungeon Master Step 2: Choose a Faction Step 3: Choose Your First Expansion Item Step 4: Roll Ability Scores (doesn't include HP, because you don't have a class yet) Step 5: Choose Your Class and Race I looked over this, it doesn't mention HP. It talks about HP for animal companions, but strangely it doesn't talk about familiars. More of the anti-arcane prejudice I think. Step 6: Select Skills Step 7: Select a Feat Step 8: Select Equipment Step 9: Details, Details, Details (cash on hand and region of origin) Step 10: Report Your Character Online
boolean 03-05-08, 06:00 PM	Living Forgotten Realms will be played using the 4th edition rules. Nobody rolls for HP/level in 4e. Perhaps you meant to post this in the Xen'drik Expeditions forum? http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=638
Keith53 03-05-08, 06:04 PM	The RPGA will use 4E D&D per Chris Perkins (WotC R&D) at DDXP Brand Meeting. The previous posting refers to numbers used for past RPGA campaigns set in 3.5E. I can't explain how the 4E HPs are derived as they fall under my NDA, but as those players of the 4E Previews at DDXP know, they are different. Unless WotC gives another teaser, you will have to wait for June 6, 2008 PHB release. Of course, I can't guarantee you will like the 4E HPs, but see my first sentence. Keith Hoffman LFR USA-NC Co-Writing Director (Waterdeep)
Iswald 03-05-08, 11:06 PM	There is a major disparity in HP gained by the various classes. All classes but arcane casters had their HP rounded up. Rogues (d6, 3.5 avg) got 4, clerics (d8, 4.5 avg) got 5, fighters (d10, avg 5.5) got 6, and barbarians (d12, avg 6.5) got 8. Arcane classes (d4, avg 2.5) got only two. Barbarians are 1.5 hp/level over average, most other classes are .5 hp/level over average, but arcane classes are .5 hp/level under average. By 10th level barbarians are 15 hp over average, fighters, clerics, and rogues are 5 over average, but arcane casters are 5 points under average. This seems seriously unfair, and unbalanced, to me. Arcane classes are already the most fragile, why are they further discriminated against? The way the rules stand, if you don't put any points into con at character generation you have 12 HP at 10th level. It is interesting though, that arcane prestige classes gain 1/2 of the maximum, plus 1, per level. So a d4 class gains 3 hp/level. It is only psion, sorceror, and wizard that get 2 hp/level. I honestly don't even understand this argument in 3.5 terms. If wizards get 1/2 their HD + 1 HP/level in LG, then they are getting 3 out of a possible 4. In other words 75% of the possible HP. On the other hand, barbarians also got 1/2 their HD + 1 HP/level, which is 7 out of a possible 12. In short, they only receive 58.3% of their possible HPs. To me, it seems obvious that classes with smaller HD come out ahead of classes with larger HD. Wizards have nothing to complain about in this department. Where do you even get this '2' from? HPs aren't rounded down. Regardless, HPs in 4th ed are different. At first level every class will have many more HPs. If you disbelieve, do a search for scans of the character sheets from this last weekend.
pedr 03-06-08, 02:49 AM	I honestly don't even understand this argument in 3.5 terms. If wizards get 1/2 their HD + 1 HP/level in LG, then they are getting 3 out of a possible 4. In other words 75% of the possible HP. On the other hand, barbarians also got 1/2 their HD + 1 HP/level, which is 7 out of a possible 12. In short, they only receive 58.3% of their possible HPs. To me, it seems obvious that classes with smaller HD come out ahead of classes with larger HD. Wizards have nothing to complain about in this department. Where do you even get this '2' from? HPs aren't rounded down. Regardless, HPs in 4th ed are different. At first level every class will have many more HPs. If you disbelieve, do a search for scans of the character sheets from this last weekend.The OP is discussing the fixed hit points in Xen'drik Expeditions, which uses a different rule from the one in LG. It is off-topic for this area and irrelevant in the light of the 4E rules which do not (it seems) have any randomness in hit-points.
Iswald 03-06-08, 09:24 AM	The OP is discussing the fixed hit points in Xen'drik Expeditions, which uses a different rule from the one in LG. People still play that?
smerwin29 03-06-08, 11:39 AM	People still play that? Absolutely! And I know both of them! [Puts Iswald on "people to watch out for list . . .] :ayyyy!: While obviously the D&D Campaigns do not rival Living Greyhawk in terms of play numbers, Xen'drik Expeditions is doing very well , and it brings to the RPGA table gamers who are not interested in the Living style of play. Shawn XE Crimson Codex Factionmaster LFR Global Admin
Dempster 03-06-08, 12:01 PM	T I looked over this, it doesn't mention HP. It talks about HP for animal companions, but strangely it doesn't talk about familiars. More of the anti-arcane prejudice I think. Familiar hit points are a core rule so they do not need to be addressed in the document. according to the familiars section in the sorcerer entry in the PHB(A familiars hit points are equal to the 1/2 the masters HPs rounded down, minimum of one.) It is likely the D&D 4E hit points will be calulated using the same as Saga edition of Star Wars. Fighter types 30HP+con bonus at first level Clerics 24HP+con Rouges 18+con Wizards 12+con In other words , triple max HD + con at first level Every level after that you get 1/2 your HD+1+CON I am basing this on 2 things. The admission in Races and Classes that Star Wars Saga Edition rules were taken from a play test version of D&D 4.0 and the discussion on death and dying from Dragon.
bronzmonkee 03-07-08, 12:43 AM	While obviously the D&D Campaigns do not rival Living Greyhawk in terms of play numbers, Xen'drik Expeditions is doing very well , and it brings to the RPGA table gamers who are not interested in the Living style of play. Or the people who like playing both :D
boolean 03-07-08, 03:45 AM	The Rogue preview on the WotC site specifies that Rogues get 12 + their Constitution score* HP at 1st level, and 5HP per level gained. (Note: that's Con _score_ not modifier. So a Dwarven Rogue with 16 Con starts with 28HP.) So, either all HP are fixed for all classes, or only some classes have fixed HP. I consider the latter very unlikely.
Iswald 03-08-08, 08:50 AM	Absolutely! And I know both of them! ... Shawn XE Crimson Codex Factionmaster LFR Global Admin You might be onto something there. ;) I notice that the Crimson Codex board is the most active of all the factions. :D After I made my original post, it occurred to me that XE might handle HP differently than LG. XE hasn't been offered near me, to my knowledge.