Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uthgardt 04-06-08, 09:59 AM	Registration opens on 4/20/08. The the most recent event schedule was posted on 3/12/08 which contained no RPGA events. This is understandable as it's very early and we have a new edition/campaign on the horizon. Do we have a rough idea when the RPGA events (specifically the LFR ones) will be posted to the schedule? The registration site asks you to also pay and pick your event slots when you register. Since I am only playing LFR during the four days, I'm trying to get a handle when I should pay for registration - so I can do everything at once. Any info on the subject would be great, especially if it makes sense not to pay and register for a few more months. Thanks.
smerwin29 04-06-08, 12:50 PM	Here's the best I can say: regardless of when the RPGA turns in information to GenCon, it is up to GenCon to get that information into their system. So even if the RPGA says, "We've given everything to GenCon in terms of event information," it still could be months before it got into the registration system. Or it could go in immediately. However, I do know that event names and blurbs for GenCon LFR events that I am in charge of have been with RPGA HQ for several days now. So that is a good sign, at least. Shawn LFR Global Admin
RSouthard 04-13-08, 04:41 PM	Ok this has moved into the realm of seriously not funny. It is now less then one week before registration and we have no idea what to register for.
coastiemike 04-14-08, 12:36 PM	Yep, agreed. Registration is 6 days away. I would love to play LFR. However, as much as I am paying for my son and I to travel to Gencon, along with all the other associated expenses (hotel, food, etc...), I won't risk just showing up and hoping. Come on guys. You have known LFR was coming for months. It is too much to ask that you give us an update about what is going on? Have you submitted the events to Gencon? Are they still on your desk waiting to be approved? What the heck is the deal?
WolfStar76 04-14-08, 01:45 PM	A blurb for the first Waterdeep LFR adventure was recently shared with the Waterdeep LFR mailing list, and as Mr Merwin said above - the RPGA already has the blurbs for the mods that will be appearing. I'd bet that the blurbs are already on their way to GenCon, if not received by them, and just waiting on GenCon LLC to enter them into the system.
BrevonDarksteel 04-15-08, 12:33 PM	Unfortunately, Derek Guder of GenCon...the one responsible for placing events into the GC registration system...states on the GC forums board, that he has NOT received any submissions from RPGA at this point. That would make it unlikely that they will make the Sunday event regsitration time, unless they are on the way to his office as we speak. Does anyone know anything more detailed about this? I'd really like to able to plan my GC event caledar appropriately.
RSouthard 04-15-08, 01:55 PM	I am an avid fan and contributer to the RPGA. I think it is a good organization and good business for WOTC. I am also very much looking forward to 4th edition and LFR. Indeed I have already pre-ordered my books. That being said, let me just say how insanely important this is. GenCon is THE con. It is the biggest and most important. The kick off of LFR should be priority number one. Someone has indeed dropped the ball. Heck they seem to have forgotten that there is a ball. I for one intend to be front and center at this years members meeting and demand an accounting for this. To the RPGA senior staff I say this.... I want to be on your side, i really do. Put to make such a monumental fumble and not even have the courtesy to make an announcement or offer an explanation is unconscionable.
WolfStar76 04-15-08, 03:35 PM	FWIW - from the LFR mailing list: The plan for Gencon 2008 is to have three LFR core adventures, four LFR regional adventures and one LFR special adventure (which will be two round). I think the titles and blurbs are making their way through the system, but the RPGA has no real control or insight over when Gencon LLC (an independent company) posts information after it is handed to them. Considering that is nine game sessions of LFR play, that could fill up a Thursday, Friday, Saturday schedule without difficulty if you wanted to max out on LFR. Mind, that doesn't guarantee that GenCon has received the info, but it sounds like the ducks are all largely in a row on the RPGA's side. There may be a disconnect somewhere in the middle. Then again, there hasn't been a call for GenCon judges yet either, and that may affect the number of tables they can try to sell tickets for. . . On the upside, even if RPGA registration isn't ready on the first day of presale, they'll still be available at SOME POINT during presale. Given the traffic spike that GenCon typically sees on the first day of event registration - this might even be a GOOD thing. Sure, you'll have to plan to leave a little time for the RPGA, but once RPGA events are available the system may be more stable and responsive for the purchase of those tickets. :) Why yes, I *do* think every cloud has a silver lining, why do you ask?
RSouthard 04-15-08, 04:58 PM	GenCon officlas stated today that they have not received any event information from the RPGA. And no the sky is not falling and there is still time for everything to come together. The idea of opening RPGA events at a later date is also no big deal. What is a big deal is that questions and being asked and then promptly ignored. A short paragraph on the website presenting with an update should not be too much to ask.
Dempster 04-15-08, 05:53 PM	I am so disappointed in the RPGA staff. This is the flag ship launch of their new campaign and they don't seem to be able to get their stuff together. Getting into events without a real ticket was a huge pain is the ass last year. This year they are tight on space so I am sure it will not be better. I made sure to clear my calender so that when tickets went on sale I would be home and able to buy them. A week out and no events!!! This is ridiculous!! I understand that there is a lot going on right now but seriously how hard is it to wright the blurbs and titles for a half a dozen adventures and submit them to Gencon. It is not like RPGA has never done this before. They should be pros by now. The worst part is no one at RPGA responding to us. Just the usual incompetent silence I have come to expect. Who supervises these people? Does the word deadline have any meaning to them? It doesn't seem to. Very , very disappointing. Could you mess up this bad at your job and still have one?
hal_jordan30 04-15-08, 06:28 PM	Not cool. I'm stuck in a holding pattern until the RPGA stuff goes up, since I (and a lot of other people) plan around RPGA stuff for optimized scheduling.
Keith53 04-15-08, 06:40 PM	Folks, relax. This is not a disaster; Gencon LLC will not run out of tickets for the RPGA gaming on the first day. In fact, if there are no RPGA games listed on the first day, they won't sell any until they are listed. I am positive that when the RPGA games are listed and available for purchase, someone will post that information. RPGA HQ is not hip deep in people. Chris Tulach, the RPGA Content Manager, must oversees multiple activities in the RPGA, including the startup of LFR, and he is a very busy man. He is definitely working hard on the LFR campaign. Getting adventures for "big shows" like Gencon is very important to the RPGA. Besides having the adventure titles and blurbs, Chris also needs to devise the gaming schedule, and that is not just for LFR. Activities like the Dungeon Delve and the D&D Championship will be there too. When do adventures run and how many tables of each in order to set ticket numbers by Gencon LLC (and to advocate for floorspace), but also to tell Dave Christ how many RPGA judges he needs to recruit. BTW, Dave is really the knowledgable guy about Gencon RPGA operations so if he chimes in, consider his point of view as well informed. Keith
gazerrant 04-15-08, 07:24 PM	Keith, you don't seem to understand the problem. The point it, many, many Gencon events DO sell out the first day (even the first HOUR) of registration. Anyone who is interested in the RPGA events is now put in a bind, because it is impossible to schedule their other events and still be sure of getting the RPGA events. Say, for example, I really, really want to do event A. Event A has two times, call them A1 and A2. Event A is a very high demand event. I also want to do Event B, an RPGA event. I want to schedule whichever time of Event A (A1 or A2) that does not conflict with Event B. As it stands right now, I CAN'T schedule my events. I have to guess on A1 or A2, and really really hope that it doesn't conflict with Event B. Now multiply this small problem by the number of events you want to play at Gencon. See the issue?
BrevonDarksteel 04-15-08, 08:20 PM	Not to mention that the opening of event registration is often the only time when many of us can dedicate ourselves to obtaining events. After Sunday, I'm back at work behind a nice firewall and no access to either the event catalog from GC or the RPGA forums. Now, as a previous poster stated, I've blocked my True Dungeon event without knowing my RPGA events on Sunday. The RPGA events hit the catalog at 11:45AM on Tuesday...by 1400 hours Tuesday afternoon, the Waterdeep Intro mods are all gone and I never had a chance. Now I have a possibly inconvenient TD run and no RPGA events to show for it. Last year they mave have gone quickly (some in under 5 minutes), but I had just as must chance as anyone. This is a serious damper on my plans... I know...it's not the end of the world, and we may yet make it...its just frustrating not knowing anything and having to speculate our own answers.
Keith53 04-15-08, 09:06 PM	I think I understand what the concern is. You (generic you) want to play several/many different games (not all of which are RPGA or LFR), some have very limited availability (seats and/or times) and are in demand which makes your scheduling a nightmare. With the rolling rollout that Gencon LLC elected to do, not having all choices open at the same moment in time, makes your decision making that much tougher. Is that basically it? You may be stressed or even frustrated with "the whole system," perhaps you would like to scream at someone for being incompetent???? At some point, you may have to prioritize your choices, and try to get either the stuff you cannot play elsewhere or you just don't want to take a chance on missing. Obviously, I hope you put the RPGA games and LFR high on your list, but I do realize that except for the LFR special, the adventures will be available globally so you might opt for picking some of them up later. Your choice. I do have sympathy for the challenges you face to accomplish what you want. My perspective is just different. Keith
GrahamWills 04-15-08, 10:35 PM	With the rolling rollout that Gencon LLC elected to do, not having all choices open at the same moment in time, makes your decision making that much tougher. Is that basically it? You may be stressed or even frustrated with "the whole system," perhaps you would like to scream at someone for being incompetent???? Keith Keith, attempting to shift blame to GenCon LLC is a little unfair. No-one either in this thread or in the equivalent GenCon thread has made this complaint. The only problem people have is that the RPGA have been very late getting their submissions in, and then stated that they *had* sent them in, when they hadn't, actually, done so. No-one is screaming, we just want you to know that it is a serious issue for, well, basically every single person interested in D&D and GenCon. It means that we must relegate D&D to second-citizen status in terms of making time available -- it will now just fill holes rather than be a #1 goal. It seems strange to me that a company that wants to sell a new product would be happy with this status. It means that people like myself, who are bringing down 4 family members and *cannot afford* to hang around halls hoping to pick up games, will choose other companies products rather than yours simply because you were unable to make a timely submission. If your different perspective is that you simply don't care, then I guess there's not much to be said. If, however, you do care, perhaps even a vague promise to look into it might be better than "if you're hosed, just play the game at home later".
Ishorn 04-16-08, 02:08 AM	In the defense of the RPGA Gen Con did move up event registration with little or no warning. Event registration was usually the first week of May and now it is the third Sunday in April. I do not get this move by Gen Con and it is tough on us that want to schedule times for games. I hope the RPGA and Gen Con can resolve this by Sunday.
pedr 04-16-08, 06:06 AM	IIRC, standard practice at GenCon Indy in the past was for the LG Core Special and the three LG Core modules to be run in every slot. Now I can only guess that this would be similar this year; I can't imagine that there would be slots when the special, at least, doesn't run. And so while it'd be a bit of a lottery - as you do not know what other people are choosing - saying "I'll book True Dungeon here and sign up for that 4 hour event there and hope that on one of the 9 other slots I've currently not filled there'll be a seat at the Special, and any other LFR mods I can get in to. Ideal? No, but when has GenCon registration ever been ideal? RPGA slots sell out very quickly. True Dungeon sells out very quickly. The system often crashes. It's the same every year, it seems... and while it would help for the RPGA events to be in the pre-release lists, there are solutions to this problem, I think.
MatteBlack 04-16-08, 09:27 AM	I think I understand what the concern is. You (generic you) want to play several/many different games (not all of which are RPGA or LFR), some have very limited availability (seats and/or times) and are in demand which makes your scheduling a nightmare. With the rolling rollout that Gencon LLC elected to do, not having all choices open at the same moment in time, makes your decision making that much tougher. Is that basically it? You may be stressed or even frustrated with "the whole system," perhaps you would like to scream at someone for being incompetent???? At some point, you may have to prioritize your choices, and try to get either the stuff you cannot play elsewhere or you just don't want to take a chance on missing. Obviously, I hope you put the RPGA games and LFR high on your list, but I do realize that except for the LFR special, the adventures will be available globally so you might opt for picking some of them up later. Your choice. I do have sympathy for the challenges you face to accomplish what you want. My perspective is just different. Keith As it is playing out with the 10 or so friends of mine considering to go for our first time largely to jump into LFR, the delay is causing a lack of confidence and unguaranteed adventure schedules could turn into a deal breaker for our trip.
Philistine_Philospher 04-16-08, 10:24 AM	I'm having a similar problem with my group of 5. We got into the RPGA 2 years ago because of LG. We are staying involved in the RPGA partially for LFR. We are going to our first Gencon partially to get in on the ground floor of LFR from day one. These events are important to us, but not so important that we're willing to take a chance at blowing our first Gencon wandering around searching for a game to play. If the LFR slots don't make it in by the 20th... I'm not waiting around and scrambling for leftovers.
RanielK 04-16-08, 11:55 AM	Well, lets be honest here folks. What has been the Core Schedule for LG at every single GenCon, Winter Fantasy (now DDXP) and Origins? Hmmmm, CORX-01 in all slots, CORX-02 in all slots, CORX-03 in all slots and CORSX-01 in all slots. This was even extended to the D&D Campaign flavor of the year. Now Living Force did have a bit of a rotational schedule (usually Part 1 of story, Part 2 then Part 3, repeat the next day). The D&D Open (or Challenge or what have you) will have a slightly different set up, but you don't have to worry about Saturday's semi's or Sunday's finale unless you get past Thursday's or Friday's Qualifier. As far as getting in. The tickets will disappear within minutes of going up, whether it is on the 20 th of April or the 6 th of June. It will only suck if they go up on a week day that isn't Friday at a time that isn't close to closing (or close enough that your boss will miss you if you sneak out early). The chances of that sadly are high. Now imagine your rage if you are a judge in an area that will have 0 slot 0 opportunities, you know of the schedule weeks in advance because you signed up for judging before anything opened up AND you still don't get to play anything on top of eating the mod you are running in 7 slots. All this after Dave has gone through six increases in tables and GenCon still oversells the slot, with Dave scrambling like a mad man to drag in more judges and most of the judges gamely stepping up to get everyone, even generics, seated. Cause, folks we're all here to play and have fun but there are only so many of us who step up and judge to go around. And yes, I can speak to this because in 2006, I came home from Iraq. My wife took me to GenCon so I could play (and only play). I still ended up running something like three or four tables for Dave. Every other GenCon or Winter Fantasy/DDXP I've been able to attend has been solely to run. So I'll see you there this year. And I promise not to TPK you, much! ;)
RSouthard 04-17-08, 02:14 PM	Oh look yet another day has passed and still nothing. People (and companies) are defined by their actions.
Ishorn 04-18-08, 05:02 PM	According to a post on Gen Con's Forum the hold up is that Wizards is waiting on the chapter 11 outcome. When does Gen Con go to court to finish up the process?
kenobi65 04-18-08, 05:48 PM	According to a post on Gen Con's Forum the hold up is that Wizards is waiting on the chapter 11 outcome. When does Gen Con go to court to finish up the process? I saw that post, too...though I'd like to see some sort of official word on that before I put too much weight in it. That said...legal matters are rarely quick, and, IIRC, GenCon LLC only filed for Chapter 11 a couple of months ago. The cynic in me wonders if they moved up event registration in order to get some cash in their coffers a few weeks earlier.
Ishorn 04-19-08, 06:47 AM	I saw that post, too...though I'd like to see some sort of official word on that before I put too much weight in it. That said...legal matters are rarely quick, and, IIRC, GenCon LLC only filed for Chapter 11 a couple of months ago. The cynic in me wonders if they moved up event registration in order to get some cash in their coffers a few weeks earlier. I am in agreement about Gen Con moving up event registration to get more money in the coffers. I think it is true about Wizards waiting to see what happens with the Chapter 11. I contacted a creator of another role playing game and asked him if he was running a demo of his game. He stated that because of the position that Gen Con is in right now his company is waiting before they allow official demos of their products at Gen Con. Also according to Peter Adkins, owner of Gen Con, the Chapter 11 proceedings should be over by the end of this month. I am thinking more like some time next month and we will see a notice somewhere that more events have been added to Gen Con's event registration. After saying that I am wondering how many gamers will wait and see before registering for events. I am one that will wait because I am only going for one day and I only want to play RPGA events.
WolfStar76 04-19-08, 07:39 AM	I find it telling that other major gaming companies (like Upper Deck Entertainment) aren't listed for events yet either. So, while it's frustrating for those that want to do all their planning in advance, it would seem Wizards is far from the only company (major or otherwise) that's taking a cautious approach.
RSouthard 04-19-08, 08:40 AM	WOTC's reason for the delay is irrelevant in my opinion. They may have good reason. Leaving its customers is the dark is the main problem. They should be telling us something. After all they announce right on the website the LFR launches at Gencon 2008. If this is in doubt then just bloody say so. Please treat your customers with respect. I have seen Chris Tulach respond to other threads in the last few days. Surely he has seen this thread by now. So he has either chosen not to respond or has been instructed not to. Either way someone is knowingly ignoring our concerns.
Ishorn 04-19-08, 12:04 PM	WOTC's reason for the delay is irrelevant in my opinion. They may have good reason. Leaving its customers is the dark is the main problem. They should be telling us something. After all they announce right on the website the LFR launches at Gencon 2008. If this is in doubt then just bloody say so. Please treat your customers with respect. I have seen Chris Tulach respond to other threads in the last few days. Surely he has seen this thread by now. So he has either chosen not to respond or has been instructed not to. Either way someone is knowingly ignoring our concerns. I think the lawyers are telling all of the companies that have not listed events or even if they are attending the show not to make a statement. I imagine that Peter Adkinson and Gen Con are trying to resolve the situation right away. Also Gen Con has moved up event registration at least two weeks. We still have the whole month May ahead of us.
Nobeast 04-19-08, 01:23 PM	I saw that post, too...though I'd like to see some sort of official word on that before I put too much weight in it. That said...legal matters are rarely quick, and, IIRC, GenCon LLC only filed for Chapter 11 a couple of months ago. The cynic in me wonders if they moved up event registration in order to get some cash in their coffers a few weeks earlier. GenCon posted last year that they'd move event registration up. So there was warning. The post on the GenCon forum is just speculation on behalf of a disgruntled person. No one at WoTC confirmed that. We could just as easily speculate that the reason for the hold up is that WoTC is busy reworking something on 4th ed, repainting and fumigating their offices or the person responsible for the submission fried his/her computer and needs the GeekSquad to help locate lost data. ;)
RanielK 04-19-08, 04:18 PM	WOTC's reason for the delay is irrelevant in my opinion. They may have good reason. Leaving its customers is the dark is the main problem. They should be telling us something. After all they announce right on the website the LFR launches at Gencon 2008. If this is in doubt then just bloody say so. Please treat your customers with respect. I have seen Chris Tulach respond to other threads in the last few days. Surely he has seen this thread by now. So he has either chosen not to respond or has been instructed not to. Either way someone is knowingly ignoring our concerns. Sure. And when did they announce this? Hmmmm, at GenCon 2007, IIRC. So when did GenCon LLC announce they were filling for Chapter 11? I'm thinking it was some time after GenCon 2007. Just saying. Course, it would be the height of foolishness for GenCon's creditors to tear apart the company to get their pennies on the dollar over a matter that wasn't related to GenCon Indie. Lord knows it could be done, but it would be moronic. That being said, there are many folks who don't want to tie themselves down monetarily to a convention that may not be there in a month.
RanielK 04-19-08, 04:20 PM	GenCon posted last year that they'd move event registration up. So there was warning. The post on the GenCon forum is just speculation on behalf of a disgruntled person. No one at WoTC confirmed that. We could just as easily speculate that the reason for the hold up is that WoTC is busy reworking something on 4th ed, repainting and fumigating their offices or the person responsible for the submission fried his/her computer and needs the GeekSquad to help locate lost data. ;) Nah, I blame Grimlins. It just sounds funnier. Them or monkies.
WolfStar76 04-19-08, 09:48 PM	Apparently asking WotC Customer Service (which, when you want an official reply is the correct place to go - the forums are a shot in the dark by comparion) gets you this: (from the LFR mailing list) Well I recieved an official email back from WotC that was different than the ones i have been hearing here. I qoute: Here is a brief FAQ concerning your questions: Q: Why are there no D&D or Wizards events on the schedule posted for Gen Con at www.gencon.com? A: Wizards had not submitted a schedule of events by the Gen Con deadline. Since we hadn't submitted our own schedule, none of our events are in the official Gen Con schedule at this time. Q: Will Wizards attend Gen Con in 2008? A: As you may be aware, Gen Con is currently in chapter 11 bankruptcy. Wizards' plans relative to Gen Con are dependent on the course of proceedings in US bankruptcy court. While we hope to participate in Gen Con, we must await further proceedings in the bankruptcy matter before we are able to confirm our plans.
vadersson 04-19-08, 11:11 PM	Well, that sound like get signed up for other events and cancell them later if you can get RPGA stuff when posted. I am very interested in playing Star Wars Saga edition in the RPGA. However, I am going to just try and get my events normally and if I later can get RPGA so be it. I guess there are legal issues, but it still seems to be that WotC should be doing something or decide to come to Origins this year. Thanks, Duncan
kenobi65 04-20-08, 01:05 AM	I am very interested in playing Star Wars Saga edition in the RPGA. Even once they get the RPGA stuff listed for GenCon, I'm not sure that there'll be any Star Wars Saga there. Last year, they had a special preview adventure for Dawn of Defiance at GenCon, but that was basically the first part of the first adventure. The length of the Dawn of Defiance adventures doesn't make them well-suited for con play. I guess there are legal issues, but it still seems to be that WotC should be doing something or decide to come to Origins this year. Umm, they already are going to be at Origins, and have been all along. That's where the final Core adventures for LG, and the Xen'drik finale, are going to premiere.
kenobi65 04-20-08, 01:07 AM	Apparently asking WotC Customer Service (which, when you want an official reply is the correct place to go - the forums are a shot in the dark by comparion) gets you this: (from the LFR mailing list) That's the exact same post (complete with the misspelling of "I quote") that appeared on the GenCon forums on Friday. Which means we're still at documentation of one guy receiving that "official" word.
vadersson 04-20-08, 11:06 AM	Even once they get the RPGA stuff listed for GenCon, I'm not sure that there'll be any Star Wars Saga there. Last year, they had a special preview adventure for Dawn of Defiance at GenCon, but that was basically the first part of the first adventure. The length of the Dawn of Defiance adventures doesn't make them well-suited for con play. The Star Wars Designer, Rodney Thompson stated that he had just finished design of an RPGA adventure for Star Wars. It was a KotoR adventure and was for Gen Con since the Kotor book comes out there. So hopefully there will be something at Gen Con. Umm, they already are going to be at Origins, and have been all along. That's where the final Core adventures for LG, and the Xen'drik finale, are going to premiere. Really? I had not seen anything stating that. They are not listed as having a booth or being a sponsor. Or are you saying that the RPGA will be running stuff at Origins? That would make sense. Last year Wizards did not even have a booth at Origins, but I did some some RPGA stuff. Gen Con moving to Indy has really hurt Origins sadly. Thanks, Duncan
waytoomuchcoffee 04-20-08, 11:27 AM	Got an email reminding me to register for KublaCon and talking about 4e events. After looking into the catalog I found this. I really hope that date is wrong. Or is this a hint that WotC has already decided about Gencon and has pushed back the campaign until the next DDXP? Living Forgotten Realms 4ed Preview! Start time: , 12:00 AM Category OTHR Duration 0 Hour Description RPGA@KublaCon has been granted the rights to run the LFR preview LFR-P-01 Escape from Sembia (4ed). Come and join us and play in the new upcoming Living Campaign that starts Jan 2009!
Keith53 04-20-08, 12:01 PM	The LFR admins have not been told of any change to the launch of LFR and we are busy writing the first wave of adventures. Keith
kenobi65 04-20-08, 02:02 PM	The Star Wars Designer, Rodney Thompson stated that he had just finished design of an RPGA adventure for Star Wars. It was a KotoR adventure and was for Gen Con since the Kotor book comes out there. So hopefully there will be something at Gen Con. Ah, OK. Really? I had not seen anything stating that. They are not listed as having a booth or being a sponsor. Or are you saying that the RPGA will be running stuff at Origins? That would make sense. Last year Wizards did not even have a booth at Origins, but I did some some RPGA stuff. I have no idea if WotC will have a booth in the Exhibit Hall, but RPGA HQ is going to Origins, and running a full slate of events. (I note this because, two years ago, RPGA HQ did *not* go to Origins, but they returned last year.)
TimRat 04-20-08, 03:24 PM	Ya the end adventures for all the 3.5 campaigns will be at origins with the RPGA. they may not have a booth (not sure if they have even had one the last few years) but the RPGA will definitely be there.
qstor 04-20-08, 05:49 PM	So I guess the questions ARE...Were the LFR event blurbs given to GenCon LLC to post in the events list? OR Is the e-mail saying that WOTC is 'holding off on' GenCon Indy 2008 for now, because of bankruptcy true? Mike
WotC_Tulach 04-20-08, 07:11 PM	Our Origins call for DMs goes up this week. We have a full schedule planned for Origins, including the finale adventures for LG and Xen'drik, the last LFR preview adventure, and a 4E special "throwback" adventure. To answer the question regarding KublaCon's information about the LFR campaign launch date, we're not launching in 2009. We are launching Living Forgotten Realms in August 2008. A listing of adventure descriptions for the first 2 months of the campaign will be available on our website by the end of April.
subbob 04-20-08, 07:42 PM	Hmmm, I'm also disappointed there were no RPGA events listed today when I registered. This is mine and my son's first trip to Gen Con. Despite some technical difficulties with the registration system, I did manage to get us into all four Pathfinder Society (http://paizo.com/pathfindersociety) adventures. Although I am not in any way welcoming 4E with "open arms", I at least figured I'd give it a chance at Gen Con and try some of the LFR. However, now that I have a set of scheduled events in place that may not happen.
waytoomuchcoffee 04-20-08, 07:47 PM	To answer the question regarding KublaCon's information about the LFR campaign launch date, we're not launching in 2009. We are launching Living Forgotten Realms in August 2008. A listing of adventure descriptions for the first 2 months of the campaign will be available on our website by the end of April. Wonderful! thanks.
GrahamWills 04-20-08, 07:56 PM	Hmmm, I'm also disappointed there were no RPGA events listed today when I registered. Despite some technical difficulties with the registration system, I did manage to get us into all four Pathfinder Society (http://paizo.com/pathfindersociety) adventures. Yep, same for me and my family (4 of us) too. We registered for other stuff and are unlikely to change. I'll probably try for the special, but if I can't get into that then, frankly, I might just give up on 4e. The only reason I played 3.5 was LG, and it seems like the RPGA is getting even less about gamers and more about Wizard's legal and marketing efforts. On the positive side, this mess should be a great boost for both Blackmoor and Pathfinders campaigns!
maijstral2 04-20-08, 10:35 PM	That's the exact same post (complete with the misspelling of "I quote") that appeared on the GenCon forums on Friday. Which means we're still at documentation of one guy receiving that "official" word. At least two other people have received the same response when they posed a similar question to customer service,and posted so in the same thread on the GenCon forums. Having said that I seriously doubt that WOTC will not be at GenCon, its probably behind the scenes politics and blame shifting.
RanielK 04-21-08, 09:45 AM	Really? I had not seen anything stating that. They are not listed as having a booth or being a sponsor. Or are you saying that the RPGA will be running stuff at Origins? That would make sense. Last year Wizards did not even have a booth at Origins, but I did some some RPGA stuff. Gen Con moving to Indy has really hurt Origins sadly. Thanks, Duncan Yep, Tulach beat me to it.
RanielK 04-21-08, 09:49 AM	Got an email reminding me to register for KublaCon and talking about 4e events. After looking into the catalog I found this. I really hope that date is wrong. Or is this a hint that WotC has already decided about Gencon and has pushed back the campaign until the next DDXP? Should have read further. Tulach answered this already.
Greenkreen 04-21-08, 10:34 AM	I just wonder how many people are in the position that I'm in, having registered a full slate of non-RPGA events just to make sure I've got something to do. Whenever the RPGA does get around to posting its events, I'll likely register for those, too, and either get refunds before I go or exchange the tickets while I'm there. Seems like it will leave a lot of other games with the illusion that they're fully scheduled until the RPGA events are posted and changes some of that.
pedr 04-21-08, 11:01 AM	Does the GenCon Indy registration system allow you to cancel tickets on your own? It used not to (requiring an email to their customer services and waiting for them to act on it) which would mean that it would be likely that by the time you've got your events cancelled so that you can buy tickets for the RPGA events, all the RPGA events will be sold out. They might have changed the system since I went in 05, but if they haven't, I'd be careful about booking now and expecting to be able to easily switch when RPGA events are released.
kenobi65 04-21-08, 11:08 AM	Does the GenCon Indy registration system allow you to cancel tickets on your own? It used not to (requiring an email to their customer services and waiting for them to act on it) which would mean that it would be likely that by the time you've got your events cancelled so that you can buy tickets for the RPGA events, all the RPGA events will be sold out. They might have changed the system since I went in 05, but if they haven't, I'd be careful about booking now and expecting to be able to easily switch when RPGA events are released. Yeah, I dunno how easy it is. I left some slots open for now, intending on filling in with LFR when / if it becomes available.
roir1k 04-21-08, 11:51 AM	Unimpressive. All of this has been known for a while-- registration dates, Chapter 11, the Convention itself. The whole thing isn't planned in a vaccuum. Un. im. pressive.
Greenkreen 04-21-08, 11:57 AM	Well, here's to hoping for some forewarning of when they'll be posting RPGA events, then. I might have to preemptively cancel a few events I've already purchased, then, which just further makes me an unhappy camper.
kenobi65 04-21-08, 12:06 PM	Unimpressive. All of this has been known for a while-- registration dates, Chapter 11, the Convention itself. The whole thing isn't planned in a vaccuum. Un. im. pressive. The sense I get is that it has nothing to do with RPGA somehow unwittingly missing the deadline. It sounds more like WotC actively chose to not get their events submitted in time for the opening of event registration.
BrevonDarksteel 04-21-08, 12:22 PM	Yes, unfortunately, I don't think its bad timing either. I get the feeling...and note this is a feeling, not a known fact....that this is due to WotC's relationship with Hasbro and thus LucasArts. If Hasbro is a creditor through Lucas Arts in the suit against GenCon, then it may have to wait out the current litigation until it can purchase event space and items through GenCon LLC. This would blow, big time....Great timing by WotC and Hasbro for a large scale release of their new product line...wonderfully played, guys. Makes me want to purchase the new license....mmmhmmm.
bandrewski 04-21-08, 12:28 PM	RPGA and WotC are totally shooting themselves in the foot with this one. I was logged in well before event purchases started at 4pm est but did not get into a single Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition event which was my primary focus. I managed to get an ok total listing of events but if WotC wants to promote a new edition then Gen-Con is the place to do it and having events for people to play is the way. There is no system to cancel events that you already paid for so even once they do release the RPGA events I will not be able to get a real ticket to one. That basically forces me to hang out with generic tickets with the hopes of getting into something lame
kenobi65 04-21-08, 12:41 PM	....that this is due to WotC's relationship with Hasbro and thus LucasArts. Pedantic thread-jack here, sorry, but I see this a lot, and it sticks in my craw. Hasbro is a licensee with Lucasfilm, not LucasArts, for producing Star Wars merchandise (for that matter, so is WotC, for producing the Star Wars RPG, and Star Wars Minis). And, GenCon LLC's legal issues are also with Lucasfilm, for whom they had handled the management of the last Star Wars Celebration convention. LucasArts is a completely different company -- it's Uncle George's video-game company. It has nothing to do with general Star Wars products, outside of video games.
kenobi65 04-21-08, 12:42 PM	...but if WotC wants to promote a new edition then Gen-Con is the place to do it and having events for people to play is the way. Absolutely, but it sounds like the lawyers have gotten involved. :(
BrevonDarksteel 04-21-08, 01:50 PM	Pedantic thread-jack here, sorry, but I see this a lot, and it sticks in my craw. Hasbro is a licensee with Lucasfilm, not LucasArts, for producing Star Wars merchandise (for that matter, so is WotC, for producing the Star Wars RPG, and Star Wars Minis). And, GenCon LLC's legal issues are also with Lucasfilm, for whom they had handled the management of the last Star Wars Celebration convention. LucasArts is a completely different company -- it's Uncle George's video-game company. It has nothing to do with general Star Wars products, outside of video games. Sorry to be in your "craw".... You are correct, and I humbly apologize for my offense....
kenobi65 04-21-08, 03:41 PM	Sorry to be in your "craw".... You are correct, and I humbly apologize for my offense.... S'alright...sorry for being a pedantic SOB. :)
bandrewski 04-21-08, 05:03 PM	Well my group just finished voting, no Dungeons & Dragons 4th Ed campaign this summer due to not needing learn the game before Gen-Con...going to be Shadowrun followed by the Conan RPG. Shame, I liked what I saw of 4th Ed. I am sure my group can not be the only ones to have this kind of reaction, just with our little circle that is almost $1,000 in sales with the three core books. It looks like 4th Ed might go down in history as a good rule system ruined by poor management decisions. I feel like we are looking at the end of TSR all over again. Between this and the change in the SRD - the True20 or Pathfinder rules are looking better everyday.
coastiemike 04-21-08, 07:28 PM	The same applies to my group of 4. Since there were no LFR or other 4th ed. wotc or rpga sponsored games, we decided on Pathfinder and registered for all 5. The next game I run will be in the Pathfinder RPG. Just too many choices to have my chain yanked like it has been. It's a shame too. I enjoyed 4th ed. at the DDXP in Washington, D.C.
Surgebuster 04-21-08, 08:48 PM	Just too many choices to have my chain yanked like it has been. Yeah, I would automatically place the blame at the feet of WotC instead of Gen Con LLC as well. After all, when assigning blame for something like this, you have to look at previous business dealings and how effectively a company conducts itself. Aren't they are the company that discontinued one of their showcase events because it continually lost money, not to mention filing for bankruptcy...oh. How about some perspective here? There is obviously more to the story than meets the eye and these things invariably come out in due time. Joe P.S. This is general comment and not specifically aimed at coastiemike... :)
CdrcJsn 04-21-08, 11:49 PM	I'm amused by all these people saying that they're not playing 4e because it's not premiering at GenCon. 1) Attending GenCon isn't a requirement to playing 4e. 2) Things are still up in the air, and 4e/RPGA events might still end up at GenCon. 3) Seriously? You're not playing 4e because it might not be at GenCon? Well, if everyone going to GenCon feels this way, those 20,000 people will be left behind as the hundreds of thousands of gamers across the world pick up the game over the summer. Not having 4e or LFR events at GenCon might affect my decision to attend GenCon, but I definitely will be picking up 4e. What I've seen of it so far from the posts on enworld already puts it way above any other game system I've seen, including 3e and its various incarnations.
BrevonDarksteel 04-22-08, 07:55 AM	Yeah, I would automatically place the blame at the feet of WotC instead of Gen Con LLC as well. After all, when assigning blame for something like this, you have to look at previous business dealings and how effectively a company conducts itself. Aren't they are the company that discontinued one of their showcase events because it continually lost money, not to mention filing for bankruptcy...oh. How about some perspective here? There is obviously more to the story than meets the eye and these things invariably come out in due time. Joe P.S. This is general comment and not specifically aimed at coastiemike... :) I think I'll take the word of a company (GC LLC) that has communicated it's desire to have as many different companies there representing gaming, and would love to have WotC as well. This, as opposed, to a company like WotC who releases a licensing agreement that simply states you must destroy all other product but ours if you wish to sell our product. Not that we have any product...yet....oh...and you can get our license AFTER the biggest convention sale potential opportunity many RPGs have...GenCon....not that we're going to be there with our own product, but you still shouldn't sell any of your old product there, as we might pull our new license from you if you do. Yeah...marketing gods these people...lemme tell you.... I've had it with the mismanagement of what used to be a great hobby...Erik Mona, Dave Arneson...anyone else but WotC at this point.... Farewell D&D...all you stand for now to me is Done and Done.
MatteBlack 04-22-08, 08:21 AM	I'm amused by all these people saying that they're not playing 4e because it's not premiering at GenCon. 1) Attending GenCon isn't a requirement to playing 4e. 2) Things are still up in the air, and 4e/RPGA events might still end up at GenCon. 3) Seriously? You're not playing 4e because it might not be at GenCon? Well, if everyone going to GenCon feels this way, those 20,000 people will be left behind as the hundreds of thousands of gamers across the world pick up the game over the summer. Not having 4e or LFR events at GenCon might affect my decision to attend GenCon, but I definitely will be picking up 4e. What I've seen of it so far from the posts on enworld already puts it way above any other game system I've seen, including 3e and its various incarnations. While some of it might be overstated, It looks as if the delay may end up blunting alot of the existing buzz for those interested in LFR and 4th ed. My friends and I were looking forward toward a big LFR kickoff at GenCon and now I see interest faltering among them. I question whether as many of us as were planning will make it if any at all. That will likely translate into less excitement the new camapign among our local community of D&Ders.
RanielK 04-22-08, 09:37 AM	I'm amused by all these people saying that they're not playing 4e because it's not premiering at GenCon. 1) Attending GenCon isn't a requirement to playing 4e. 2) Things are still up in the air, and 4e/RPGA events might still end up at GenCon. 3) Seriously? You're not playing 4e because it might not be at GenCon? Well, if everyone going to GenCon feels this way, those 20,000 people will be left behind as the hundreds of thousands of gamers across the world pick up the game over the summer. Not having 4e or LFR events at GenCon might affect my decision to attend GenCon, but I definitely will be picking up 4e. What I've seen of it so far from the posts on enworld already puts it way above any other game system I've seen, including 3e and its various incarnations. I'd have to agree. That is the one comment here that has me thinking :uh-huh: After all, 4e will be out just before Origins. GenCon isn't until August. Though LFR will begin at GenCon, the vast majority of RPGA'ers will not start LFR at GenCon. They will either have it trickle down to their homegames when their friends return from GenCon or they will go to one of the many regional cons that will have LFR events. 4e and LFR won't live or die based on whether or not they're at GenCon. They will live or die in the months leading up to GenCon as folks decide whether they will invest in 4e. Though I am amused by the comments that are pretty much "Well, I really liked 4e and would play it, but it won't be at GenCon in August cause I don't see it on the list now in early April so :nonono:". Whatever. :rolleye2:
RanielK 04-22-08, 09:45 AM	I think I'll take the word of a company (GC LLC) that has communicated it's desire to have as many different companies there representing gaming, and would love to have WotC as well. This, as opposed, to a company like WotC who releases a licensing agreement that simply states you must destroy all other product but ours if you wish to sell our product. Not that we have any product...yet....oh...and you can get our license AFTER the biggest convention sale potential opportunity many RPGs have...GenCon....not that we're going to be there with our own product, but you still shouldn't sell any of your old product there, as we might pull our new license from you if you do. Yeah...marketing gods these people...lemme tell you.... I've had it with the mismanagement of what used to be a great hobby...Erik Mona, Dave Arneson...anyone else but WotC at this point.... Farewell D&D...all you stand for now to me is Done and Done. See, if this were Apple and their trying to be the only point of software for the apple (like they were in the late 70's early 80's) then I'd agree. An OS is only desireable if there is lots of support, but in the end you need the OS or the software doesn't work. WoTC is releasing game rules. They don't have to make their rules available for anyone else to support. After all, where is White Wolf with their third party support? WoTC is making sure the new reference document doesn't let another company release "Super Delux RPG (Please ignore that it looks like a cut and paste of the SRD)!!!" and good on them. That they're allowing 3rd party support at all is a good thing. That they don't want folks competing and eroding their profits is sensible business. Besides, just look at Pathfinder. It is an update of the SRD for 3.5. They didn't create the SRD, they are making some tweaks that will allow continued play of 3.5 (call it 3.75 if you must). All of this from the original SRD. So is it in WoTC's best interest to write a new SRD for 4e that will allow someone else to come along and publish "Our Very Own RPG" that is 4.0.0.1 e and have it compete with 4e?
MwaO 04-22-08, 10:07 AM	I think I'll take the word of a company (GC LLC) that has communicated it's desire to have as many different companies there representing gaming, and would love to have WotC as well. You're taking the word of a company that is in bankruptcy and being sued...sometimes, when a company is in bankruptcy, it doesn't matter that the people who run the company plan to keep their word - a court tells them that they won't. Now the problem WotC has is what happens if GenCon suddenly can't afford to pay vendors(convention center, people, etc...) and the court tells them tough. Normally, GenCon could probably promise WotC that if things went badly, they'd owe them X dollars for it. But because they're in bankruptcy, they need a court's permission to do that(and have it mean something). Because they're being sued, they probably need LucasFilms permission to do that. (I'm not a lawyer, but these are the obvious problems...)
BrevonDarksteel 04-22-08, 10:13 AM	See, if this were Apple and their trying to be the only point of software for the apple (like they were in the late 70's early 80's) then I'd agree. An OS is only desireable if there is lots of support, but in the end you need the OS or the software doesn't work. WoTC is releasing game rules. They don't have to make their rules available for anyone else to support. After all, where is White Wolf with their third party support? WoTC is making sure the new reference document doesn't let another company release "Super Delux RPG (Please ignore that it looks like a cut and paste of the SRD)!!!" and good on them. That they're allowing 3rd party support at all is a good thing. That they don't want folks competing and eroding their profits is sensible business. Besides, just look at Pathfinder. It is an update of the SRD for 3.5. They didn't create the SRD, they are making some tweaks that will allow continued play of 3.5 (call it 3.75 if you must). All of this from the original SRD. So is it in WoTC's best interest to write a new SRD for 4e that will allow someone else to come along and publish "Our Very Own RPG" that is 4.0.0.1 e and have it compete with 4e? Yes, but we're not discussing a company using 4E rules and devising their own gaming marketable system. We're talking if you want to sell 4E products, you must destroy your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition material support, your entire backlog inventory of material, and change your logo identity on every marketable copy of new support. In essence, you are now an exclusive marketer for our gaming system. Never mind that we are currently demonstrating our inability to provide you with consistent supply of material , haven't made a targeted market release in 4 years, and we reserve the right to pull our current license at our discretion leaving you with nothing....cause remember all that inventory you destroyed? I'm not saying it won't make WotC money...I'm saying its stupid. So here we are at GenCon...every company that's considering the new license (remember, it not available yet, so you can't make money from it at GC) is now offering its inventory of 3-3.5 compatible material at a huge discount. Paizo is in the booth right where WotC used to be....welcoming everyone who now has tons of usable material for their game system. WotC? Sorry, we won't be demoing our new system at GC...try finding a home campaign in the meantime till Experience next year. Oh and you new licensed companies...here's your 1 core book..hope to have the next one out in October...and 1 module. Sales should fly off the chart!! Yeah...many will flock to 4E....I'm sure. I'm sure your devotion though to a dying art will keep my points from sinking in...so have fun...I'm done here. WotC's silence on this issue has confirmed everything I needed to know. *EDIT* Oops, looks like they are NOT staying silent: http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/080422/0389052.html WotC has made a choice to serve the Emperor, I guess.....I see which system's going to get all the love this year and it doesn't look like 4E is it. Shame.
pedr 04-22-08, 10:24 AM	Some of the comments in this thread on the Game System License are based on unconfirmed speculation about the terms of the license, which no-one outside WotC has seen yet. There are threads aplenty on ENWorld about it; the slashdot article is, perhaps, prematurely confident about the state of play. Decisions based on the terms of the GSL really need to wait for the final text of the GSL to be available as at present we are only able to discuss speculation, and that is not helpful, here, at least (as I said, plenty of threads on ENWorld, which will likely be one of the main sources for official comments as the site has submitted some very detailed questions to Scott Rouse, Linae Foster and the others at WotC who are working on this).
bandrewski 04-22-08, 10:28 AM	I'm amused by all these people saying that they're not playing 4e because it's not premiering at GenCon. Not attending Gen-Con is a symptom of a larger problem within WotC that prevents me from wanting to support that company with my money. I am not thinking that my little group playing a different game is going to shake the pillars of power but I can not in good conscience provide monetary support to a company that I disagree with if it can be avoided. WotC has become much like TSR toward the end, where corporate “bean counters” seem to be controlling the general operation far more then the true hobby enthusiasts who understand the needs and desires of the market. More and more their focus seems to be about making a profit over supporting the gaming community. Now, there is nothing wrong with making money and running a successful company but with a niche market such as this “profit for the sake of profit” is a real turn-off. I understand that the rules themselves might be written by gamers but it is the head of the snake that bites, and the ruling powers at WotC are really injecting a corporate corruption into the system that taints all links of the chain. Now maybe the company that runs Gen-Con is to blame for the lack of RPGA events but right now I can only judge based on what each company as said about the manner. Gen-Con has stated that they would love to have RPGA attend and hope to post those events as soon as they receive them. WotC has started they are not doing this based on that bankruptcy proceedings which quite frankly seems like weak reasoning since there is little doubt that Gen-Con Indy will fail to kick-off based on it past ability to turn a profit. Heck, even if that company packed up shop today I am sure there would be little delay in another company picking up the Gen-Con Indy property.
kenobi65 04-22-08, 12:01 PM	WotC has started they are not doing this based on that bankruptcy proceedings which quite frankly seems like weak reasoning since there is little doubt that Gen-Con Indy will fail to kick-off based on it past ability to turn a profit. Those issues are in bankruptcy court right now, and that's why there is doubt. While I don't disagree that it's likely that GenCon Indy will still go off, and it's likely in the best interest of GenCon's creditors to have it go off (since the cash flow generated will help to pay them off), as I understand it, it may well be up to the judge to make those final decisions. If that's the case, then anything relating to GenCon is a calculated risk right now -- the risk that it won't go off may be low, but it may not be zero. And, as others have noted, GenCon's legal problems stem from their involvement with Lucasfilm, of which Hasbro / WotC is a major licensee. (It may even be that Hasbro is a creditor against GenCon, if they had any involvement in Star Wars Celebration.) I may be wrong, but it may be that the legal issues are more tangled than we think.
bandrewski 04-22-08, 12:38 PM	And, as others have noted, GenCon's legal problems stem from their involvement with Lucasfilm, of which Hasbro / WotC is a major licensee. (It may even be that Hasbro is a creditor against GenCon, if they had any involvement in Star Wars Celebration.) I may be wrong, but it may be that the legal issues are more tangled than we think. There could be a really good logical reason for this but so far WotC has not provided that information. The Lucasfilm thing is a bit weird when you take a purely business approach to it. There is no reason that WotC can not do business with both. WotC was not directly involved in the dealings that lead to the conflict between the other two companies. If Lucasfilm is telling WotC they can not do business with Gen-Con because of this, that would seem to be childish schoolyard stuff. WotC should not be forced to choose between the two. If anything they should reply to Lucasfilm that WotC support of Gen-Con just helps everyone involved because that convention making money is needed for all parties.
RanielK 04-22-08, 01:04 PM	Yes, but we're not discussing a company using 4E rules and devising their own gaming marketable system. We're talking if you want to sell 4E products, you must destroy your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition material support, your entire backlog inventory of material, and change your logo identity on every marketable copy of new support. In essence, you are now an exclusive marketer for our gaming system. Never mind that we are currently demonstrating our inability to provide you with consistent supply of material , haven't made a targeted market release in 4 years, and we reserve the right to pull our current license at our discretion leaving you with nothing....cause remember all that inventory you destroyed? I'm not saying it won't make WotC money...I'm saying its stupid. So here we are at GenCon...every company that's considering the new license (remember, it not available yet, so you can't make money from it at GC) is now offering its inventory of 3-3.5 compatible material at a huge discount. Paizo is in the booth right where WotC used to be....welcoming everyone who now has tons of usable material for their game system. WotC? Sorry, we won't be demoing our new system at GC...try finding a home campaign in the meantime till Experience next year. Oh and you new licensed companies...here's your 1 core book..hope to have the next one out in October...and 1 module. Sales should fly off the chart!! Yeah...many will flock to 4E....I'm sure. I'm sure your devotion though to a dying art will keep my points from sinking in...so have fun...I'm done here. WotC's silence on this issue has confirmed everything I needed to know. *EDIT* Oops, looks like they are NOT staying silent: http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/080422/0389052.html WotC has made a choice to serve the Emperor, I guess.....I see which system's going to get all the love this year and it doesn't look like 4E is it. Shame. Ummm, 1 core book and 1 mod? You know something I don't about the release? Cause last I looked there were three core books coming out, around what 4 - 6 mods and then in August the 4e FRCS. That was at a minimum. Now I must admit, I don't live and die by their catalogue, so I wouldn't know if they've made every scheduled release, only 50% or none. But last I looked they seemed to be able to get most of it out when they say they will. As for dieing art, sure I guess WoW is high art here. Sorry but I don't see sitting in the dark in front of a computer monitor as entertaining as going to a con with some friends. But that's just me.
RanielK 04-22-08, 01:06 PM	*EDIT* Oops, looks like they are NOT staying silent: http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/080422/0389052.html WotC has made a choice to serve the Emperor, I guess.....I see which system's going to get all the love this year and it doesn't look like 4E is it. Shame. I guess your point here is that because LucasFilms made a press release that WoTC isn't going to support 4e D&D? If not, I'm missing it big time. :confused:
BrevonDarksteel 04-22-08, 02:34 PM	Ummm, 1 core book and 1 mod? You know something I don't about the release? Cause last I looked there were three core books coming out, around what 4 - 6 mods and then in August the 4e FRCS. That was at a minimum. Now I must admit, I don't live and die by their catalogue, so I wouldn't know if they've made every scheduled release, only 50% or none. But last I looked they seemed to be able to get most of it out when they say they will. As for dieing art, sure I guess WoW is high art here. Sorry but I don't see sitting in the dark in front of a computer monitor as entertaining as going to a con with some friends. But that's just me. Yeah, that IS just you. Where in the name of all that's unscripted did you get that I am supoorting WoW???? Talk about being misquoted for YOUR purposes. I have been an ardent RPGA supporter for over 20 years...Hell I used to play at David Gross' house on long Saturday Afternoons, with nothing but sanctioned Polyhedron material. I can tell you without a doubt, the quality and player focused aspect of the RPGA has gone downhill lately. Its being constantly told that we are important to them, but then provided no information in regards to things that matter to us. I have recently discovered there are other RP systems out there...systems that seem to count on player support and feedback, and who express their desire to make a product for you...not a Corporation. Are they still a business like WotC?...yes, but the priority, for the moment, is squarely where it belongs...on the customer. Oh and believe me when I say, as a playtester, if you loved WoW...you are gonna love 4E.
BrevonDarksteel 04-22-08, 02:35 PM	I guess your point here is that because LucasFilms made a press release that WoTC isn't going to support 4e D&D? If not, I'm missing it big time. :confused: Yep...you are.
vadersson 04-22-08, 02:45 PM	Oops, looks like they are NOT staying silent: http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/080422/0389052.html WotC has made a choice to serve the Emperor, I guess.....I see which system's going to get all the love this year and it doesn't look like 4E is it. Shame. Sweet! It is about time Star Wars Saga edition got some good loving!! ;) In reality, just because WotC is supporting Saga along with things that Lucas is going is just good marketing. New Star Wars film in theaters = more Star Wars stuff being sold. As for 4E and Gen-Con, it is very silly if the don't show. Hopefully all the legal stuff will get resolved. Thanks, Duncan
CdrcJsn 04-22-08, 04:24 PM	Oh and believe me when I say, as a playtester, if you loved WoW...you are gonna love 4E. You're a playtester for 4e?
CdrcJsn 04-22-08, 04:37 PM	Now maybe the company that runs Gen-Con is to blame for the lack of RPGA events but right now I can only judge based on what each company as said about the manner. Gen-Con has stated that they would love to have RPGA attend and hope to post those events as soon as they receive them. WotC has started they are not doing this based on that bankruptcy proceedings which quite frankly seems like weak reasoning since there is little doubt that Gen-Con Indy will fail to kick-off based on it past ability to turn a profit. Heck, even if that company packed up shop today I am sure there would be little delay in another company picking up the Gen-Con Indy property. These are the same people that ran GenCon SoCal and failed to properly target their market and lost money. If I was in WotC's shoes and had a choice between putting my big marketing push at this one convention, containing only a small portion of my target audience, that has a chance of going belly up (speculation here, but from BK proceedings and closing of GenConSoCal, not so farfetched), or going some other route to promote my flagship product, I might consider that latter. What's better? Putting in your money as a vendor at a show that only a limited number of people will see or using that money to promote a world wide game day at every single game store in the world? GenCon going belly up might seem inconceivable to you, but it's not outside the realm of possiblity, and someone in WotC's position might have a lot of insider information that the rest of us don't. If someone got some insider information but isn't in a position to share it, that might explain the current state of things. Again though, this is all speculation. Until more public information is released, we don't really have much more to go on than mere speculation. There is still four months to go til GenCon and a lot can happen in that time. Making definitive statements about anything right now is a tad premature.
CdrcJsn 04-22-08, 05:00 PM	Not attending Gen-Con is a symptom of a larger problem within WotC that prevents me from wanting to support that company with my money. I am not thinking that my little group playing a different game is going to shake the pillars of power but I can not in good conscience provide monetary support to a company that I disagree with if it can be avoided. Yet you support GenCon, a company that is currently being sued by LucasFilms for irregularities in accounting and conduct with regards Make-a-wish foundation? http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/12058.html Whether or not they are innocent of the above is the topic of the suit, which prompted the BK announcement. If you were a potential vendor, would you support an event that might've held funds back from a charity auction to Make-a-Wish foundation?
The_Jester 04-22-08, 05:08 PM	Wow.... this is like... every anti-WotC/Hasbro/GenCon/4e/WoW thread compressed into a page and a half. And none of it past the first dozen posts has anything to do with Living Forgotten Realms. Thoughts: 1) No WotC in GenCon. Eh. Give everyone else a chance to shine. Companies get to unload they're 3e stock (of course, generally if a book doesn't sell in the first three months it never will, so if they have tonnes of back inventory they're pooched whether they choose to go exclusive 4e or not). It's not that different from Nintendo bowing out of the Tokyo Game Show. Hasn't crippled either. 2) WotC is owned by Hasbo. And the biggest piece of Hasbro is Kenner, which owes alot of its market share to Star Wars (although GIJoe and Transformers are probably giving that a run for its money). If Lucasfilms has a problem, Hasbro is probably listening. Or maybe the 4e people are a *little* more concerned with other stuff and blew a deadline. 3) Even if there's no "official" support, there's going to be a glut of 4e. 4) WoW. I wish the 4e = WoW/anime/mini-game would just die. 5) Canadian, so I'll likely never see GenCon. So I'll be ordering the games for Game Days regardless. 6) Is the RPGA out of the loop if WotC is pulling out? I wouldn't be surprised; they've kinda been the last to know everything in the past. Heck, LFR still doesn't have a sub-site and there still hasn't been an official region announcement.
RanielK 04-22-08, 07:37 PM	Yeah, that IS just you. Where in the name of all that's unscripted did you get that I am supoorting WoW???? Talk about being misquoted for YOUR purposes. I have been an ardent RPGA supporter for over 20 years...Hell I used to play at David Gross' house on long Saturday Afternoons, with nothing but sanctioned Polyhedron material. I can tell you without a doubt, the quality and player focused aspect of the RPGA has gone downhill lately. Its being constantly told that we are important to them, but then provided no information in regards to things that matter to us. I have recently discovered there are other RP systems out there...systems that seem to count on player support and feedback, and who express their desire to make a product for you...not a Corporation. Are they still a business like WotC?...yes, but the priority, for the moment, is squarely where it belongs...on the customer. Oh and believe me when I say, as a playtester, if you loved WoW...you are gonna love 4E. The "go play WoW" bit was me venting more at another guy talking about how D&D and WoW and their ilk were what the vast majority wanted. I would admit there are other RPG companies out there and most do a good job. I'm really partial to White Wolf's Storyteller system myself. Fuzion is cool, but that mostly comes from what my friend is able to do with it (Macross, Star Fleet, and others). But saying WoTC is ignoring their customers because of problems with GenCon is ludicrous. There are legal problems way deeper than just some little spat. If there isn't a GenCon this year, I'll still drive to Indy and eat my shoes when I get there. I'm pretty sure I'll be in Indy running LFR for folks. However, I'm going to start marinating and tenderizing my shoes now, cause you just never know. As for 4e, I've talked to one or two other playtesters and I do like what I've seen. And for the record, I don't like MMORPGs in the least.
RanielK 04-22-08, 07:44 PM	6) Is the RPGA out of the loop if WotC is pulling out? I wouldn't be surprised; they've kinda been the last to know everything in the past. Heck, LFR still doesn't have a sub-site and there still hasn't been an official region announcement. Well, I can't speak for the other things, but the official region announcement was quite some time ago. That was back at DDXP. The Admins needed to know what they were organizing early on. After all, you can't organize your writers if you don't know what the flavor is supposed to be. For the record, I'm in the Cormyrian Empire.
pedr 04-22-08, 07:52 PM	I think that what was meant was that there is no official announcement of the regions on the RPGA website. The regions appear to first have been posted on one of the yahoo groups, I noticed and posted it here, and campaign administrators have since confirmed that list on groups/boards, but there's nothing with Chris Tulach's name on it, and nothing visible to people who don't go to the discussion boards/groups, to announce where the regions are.
The_Jester 04-23-08, 11:16 AM	Exactly. There is a LFR link on the main RPGA page, and a tab above the middle frame. The latter just directs you to a blurb/plug while the former sends you to the call for authors. The last official thing LFR has had on the Wizard's site. So all a non-MBer will see: a) LFR is still looking for authors b) No new information has been posted since September
Madfox11 04-23-08, 12:10 PM	A huge amount of work has been done on LFR since DDXP by the RPGA as well as R&D and the book department and a huge amount of work still needs to be done. Setting up a worldwide campaign is not easy, especially not when it is in a new game system which until recently was still in development and you are still busy with the old campaigns (LG, Xen'drik Expeditions) and organized play at conventions. There is only so much you can do on your own, and deligating the tasks is only possible up to a point when most available people are vollunteers. So lets please give Chris a break. Anybody who is involved in RPGA administration knows how much he has done for the RPGA and integrating organized play more with R&D. Right now the priorities are simply not at the website, but at getting the adventures and chararacter rules out on time and doing is not particularly easy especially since those things need to be among other things integrated in the database. Just remember, that you can play adventures from any region in any spot on the world. The regions have been assigned to areas on Earth as an administrative and organizational tool. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA LFR Global Administrator
smerwin29 04-23-08, 12:56 PM	[double post]
smerwin29 04-23-08, 12:58 PM	I want to second what Pieter has said. I have been involved in the RPGA on many levels over the years, and what Chris has been able to do in his short time has been nothing less than astounding. I would have never believed, in a million years, that the RPGA would be able to have its offerings integrated as much as they have into R&D, Brand, etc. That is not to say that things cannot or should not be better, because they can and should. But Chris has taken on the enormous burden of making things as good as they can possibly be for the RPGA while working within the restrictions placed on him. He as the RPGA Content Guy, and we as a campaign, are working hard to make it happen, and where there are problems we are taking notes and trying to gets things fixed. Some issues have had to be put on hold while higher priority issues are worked on. So thank y'all for your patience when there are things we have no control over, and for your support of the things we can. Be well, Shawn Another RPGA LFR Global Administrator
nony2klerch 04-23-08, 03:47 PM	I don't know about anybody else shawn...but I'm rooting for you. and the other sean :D Even the tall guy from overseas... :cheer: ________________________________________ _________________________ Patience may be hard to come by...especially the way that tickets historically disappear, but if people volunteer to judge the volume of players that can be handled is proportional to number of volunteer judges... So if you think of complaining about the lack of play opportunities at GenCon (or Origins) ...think about judging a few slots and be part of the solution... Just a thought (you might even get in for free and get a free book out it as well..you never know....):cool: Lynn
Xippendollom Krakenwarren 04-26-08, 01:37 PM	I was pretty mad about this when I first went to sign up, but the more I think about everything, the more I'm able to come to terms with all of it. This will be the first time I will be attending GenCon. I'm going to meet up with some buddies from the Dragonlance boards, but I also wanted to get in on the ground floor of Living Realms. It was really one of the biggest decisions why I started looking at going, but after doing a bunch of research, I'm thinking that I'm just going to kind of go and hang out and take it all in instead of trying to pack a schedule. If Living Realms games do show up at some point in the future, I'll likely try to sign up for a couple, but as much as it would suck to not have WotC there, I'm sure I'll have a good time either way.
The_Jester 04-26-08, 04:26 PM	A couple friends of mine went and their only regret was playing too much LG. They barely got a chance to walk around the con. There'll be games going on and someone's bound to organize some LFR (it'll be crazy-easy as everyone will be first level. Just have a bunch of DMs and gather players and #s).
pedr 04-26-08, 06:14 PM	A couple friends of mine went and their only regret was playing too much LG. They barely got a chance to walk around the con. I'll quote this for truth - I've only been to GenCon Indy once, and while I played a bit of RPGA stuff, and met some fun people there, I also very much enjoyed the non RPGA stuff I was able to experience - stuff you couldn't get anywhere else, like True Dungeon and the NASCRAG tournament which was superb. Plus the trade-hall, and eating every night at the RAM!
RSouthard 04-27-08, 09:57 AM	I feel the need to reiterate a point. I am not overly upset that the RPGA might not be at Gencon. I will be a bit disappointed, but I understand that a business must sometimes act as a business. My primary complaint has been the lack of information. As I said before, the RPGA website obviously states that LFR will launch at Gencon 2008. Ok stuff happens, things change I get it. Just tell us. Most of us are big boys and girls and can handle the truth. A simple paragraph would suffice. It would only take a few minutes to write. Whenever I check the website I get that same sinking feeling I get every month when I log into the monthly chats and realize that despite being on the schedule, the chat is just not going to happen. I feel ignored. If you are not going to have the chats then take them off the schedule. If you want to generate hype and excitement for a new campaign, pretending that the customer does not exist seems counter productive. Yes, I said customer on purpose, because that is what I am. A customer, whom if you treat well, might buy your products.
smerwin29 04-27-08, 10:18 AM	I don't know about anybody else shawn...but I'm rooting for you. and the other sean :D Even the tall guy from overseas... :cheer: Thanks Lynn, I really appreciate support. Sean, Pieter, and I have been working very hard to get the campaign ready. The regional admins have been doing a great job getting the campaign ready. And no one is working harder than Chris Tulach. As with any campaign, the success of the campaign is going to rest directly on the shoulders of the DMs and those who put together the game days and other events. We are lucky to inherit such a good player and DM base from LG and other campaigns. Shawn
pedr 04-27-08, 11:16 AM	I would be very surprised should WotC not attend GenCon Indy. I think that the most sensible interpretation of the limited information we have would be that WotC do not think it legally wise to pay money to GenCon LLC at the moment. Once the legal circumstances change, that will no longer be the case and WotC will be able to submit their events and pay whatever it is they pay for trade-hall space etc.
The_Jester 04-27-08, 05:11 PM	My primary complaint has been the lack of information. As I said before, the RPGA website obviously states that LFR will launch at Gencon 2008. Ok stuff happens, things change I get it. Just tell us. ... Whenever I check the website I get that same sinking feeling I get every month when I log into the monthly chats and realize that despite being on the schedule, the chat is just not going to happen. I feel ignored. If you are not going to have the chats then take them off the schedule. If you want to generate hype and excitement for a new campaign, pretending that the customer does not exist seems counter productive. Well, it's not just the RPGA but the full WotC site that's been slow on GenCon news. The only 'official' announcements I've seen have been on EN World. So it looks like they're doing some wait-and-see right now. But the RPGA is always slow for additional web support. Xen'Drik never even got its own Stack and Progression sheets and had to use Mark of Hero ones despite having changed some of the rules/procedures. Living Greyhawk took years to get campaign cards, which are always months late (I'm still waiting on the spring mailing that should have been here "mid-March"). I get that the campaign staff is crazy busy planning out the arcs and campaign standards and the how-to, but unless Chris Tulach is personally HTMLing the RPGA sub-site there should be some updates and information.
kenobi65 04-28-08, 11:38 AM	Living Greyhawk took years to get campaign cards, which are always months late (I'm still waiting on the spring mailing that should have been here "mid-March"). I got my DM reward mini in the mail about a week and a half ago. Past experience shows that the DM rewards arrive a couple of weeks before the cards, so I'd figure the cards will be here any day now.
Butterface 04-30-08, 10:54 AM	How about an update on Gen Con/Living FR status? Is anything happening? I'm still holding out hope that LFR will be there.
The_Jester 04-30-08, 03:00 PM	They said they'd let us know by the end of April. So until then we have to be patient and... oh wait, nevermind. Registration for events is closed. So while they may make an exception for WotC they could just as easily say "no". So there might very easily be no official WotC event at GenCon. There might be LFR played, there might be whole rooms booked for it, but at this point it might just be occurring at the same time as GenCon at the same place as GenCon but not actually GenCon. Or LFR could be premiering elsewhere. Like in homes and Game Days.
kenobi65 04-30-08, 03:27 PM	Registration for events is closed. So while they may make an exception for WotC they could just as easily say "no". So there might very easily be no official WotC event at GenCon. Just to be clear...I assume you're referring to the event submission deadline having passed (though I'm not finding that on a quick scan of the GenCon web site). Attendees can still pre-register for events up until June 28th.
The_Jester 04-30-08, 03:54 PM	http://www.gencon.com/2008/indy/ Under "Event Info" it says: Event submission has closed and we have been releasing event charts ... We’re still placing and accepting events as space allows, so check back for updates! Which likely means there's still space and GenCon is keep a block open for WotC/Hasbro to register. But WotC has said they're waiting until the bankruptcy situation is resolved. However, GenCon is protected by Chapter 11 for 180 days after declaring (as long as they submit a plan) so they have until the 28th of August to sort things out with their creditors. That's 11 days after the end of GenCon. So really, GenCon *could* gamble on a flood of support or fund raising during the convention and use that money to placate their creditors. They likely won't (as that's a fairly large and last-minute gamble) but I'm just saying there is no guarantee the situation will be resolved prior to the convention or in time for an already late event schedule. So that leaves a few options as I see it: 1) WotC bites down, takes a chance, and submits a schedule to GenCon. 2) The RPGA or LFR staffers take a chance and make their own schedule independent of WotC. 3) RGPA individual GMs register a series of homegame events and make a mini Con-within-a-Con and organize play on Warhorn or something. 4) LFR's big launch gets scrapped and everyone just plays in their own towns and game days.
kenobi65 04-30-08, 04:56 PM	But WotC has said they're waiting until the bankruptcy situation is resolved. However, GenCon is protected by Chapter 11 for 180 days after declaring (as long as they submit a plan) so they have until the 28th of August to sort things out with their creditors. Actually, what little has been publically noted on this did not use the term "resolved". From the oft-quoted response that some folks got from WotC Customer Service: Wizards' plans relative to Gen Con are dependent on the course of proceedings in US bankruptcy court. While we hope to participate in Gen Con, we must await further proceedings in the bankruptcy matter before we are able to confirm our plans. That suggests to me that they're waiting for some particular point of progress in the proceedings, not necessarily the conclusion of them. Now, I recall reading something (can't remember where) that there was some sort of a progress step in the bankruptcy proceedings that was supposed to happen by the end of April. If that's the case, I strongly suspect that that's why GenCon moved Event Registration up by several weeks...so that they could have cash in the bank when they went to this court date, and that they could demonstrate that GenCon Indy was going to make money.
BrevonDarksteel 05-01-08, 11:48 AM	Actually, what little has been publically noted on this did not use the term "resolved". From the oft-quoted response that some folks got from WotC Customer Service: That suggests to me that they're waiting for some particular point of progress in the proceedings, not necessarily the conclusion of them. Now, I recall reading something (can't remember where) that there was some sort of a progress step in the bankruptcy proceedings that was supposed to happen by the end of April. If that's the case, I strongly suspect that that's why GenCon moved Event Registration up by several weeks...so that they could have cash in the bank when they went to this court date, and that they could demonstrate that GenCon Indy was going to make money. Actually most of their "money" they would be able to demonstrate to a court proceeding would be on a creditor basis. The Exhibit hall/vendor payments (which is where the money comes from, the events are free to submit...GenCon gets nothing for those) were already in place by January. The movement of registration, from what I understand, was to better facilitate the large number of events to be placed, and the limited staff to do it. This intent was made clear to all event GMs many months in advance. PACER records already show that FERN, the convention organizer group that GenCon works through, has agreed to renegotiate its contract with GenCon LLC, reduce the costs for GC Star Wars, and extend the contract to 2013. If this group is willing to continue its support and renegotiate to maintain the business, then I'm not sure why WotC is hesitant to proceed in a product launch year with something as simple as Event Submissions. I do think an update would be nice for those people who believed the website and bought plane tickets, hotel reservations, and planned vacation with their work already...I guess that's asking too much?
kenobi65 05-01-08, 12:21 PM	Actually most of their "money" they would be able to demonstrate to a court proceeding would be on a creditor basis. The Exhibit hall/vendor payments (which is where the money comes from, the events are free to submit...GenCon gets nothing for those) were already in place by January. The movement of registration, from what I understand, was to better facilitate the large number of events to be placed, and the limited staff to do it. This intent was made clear to all event GMs many months in advance. That may be; I was just hypothesizing. But, what I was referring to, in regards to moving event registration up, and their finanaces, was not payments from event sponsors, but from attendees. I bought $36 of event tickets when event registration opened a few weeks ago...and I left half of my slots open. If the amount I spent is anything near typical...and if anything close to a significant fraction of their attendees bought event tickets at that point...that's possibly several hundred thousand in *cash* that they'd now have on hand.
bandrewski 05-01-08, 01:02 PM	My group voted not to risk leaving event times open. That means that as it stands now even if RPGA releases a list of events my group will be unable to attend. There is no way one of my group will give up a game they already have a ticket for over the chance to get into an RPGA one with a generic ticket. Out of 6 guys, we got one ticket total to a 4th edition event at Gen-Con and that one only runs for two hours. Not a good way to introduce a new rule system. I wish WotC would provide more information since right now I am not happy with them over this. I understand about the problems with the company running Gen-Con but so far there has been no sign that Gen-Con Indy is going to fail to kickoff this year.
WolfStar76 05-01-08, 02:28 PM	My group voted not to risk leaving event times open. That means that as it stands now even if RPGA releases a list of events my group will be unable to attend. There is no way one of my group will give up a game they already have a ticket for over the chance to get into an RPGA one with a generic ticket. Out of 6 guys, we got one ticket total to a 4th edition event at Gen-Con and that one only runs for two hours. Not a good way to introduce a new rule system. I wish WotC would provide more information since right now I am not happy with them over this. I understand about the problems with the company running Gen-Con but so far there has been no sign that Gen-Con Indy is going to fail to kickoff this year. Keep in mind that if/when the RPGA events show up on the GenCon calendar you'll still be able to register for those events (Until June 28th) - meaning you wouldn't need to "hope" that a generic ticket will get you in. Even if you did, generic tickets get seated a LOT at RPGA tables.
bandrewski 05-01-08, 03:10 PM	Keep in mind that if/when the RPGA events show up on the GenCon calendar you'll still be able to register for those events (Until June 28th) - meaning you wouldn't need to "hope" that a generic ticket will get you in. Even if you did, generic tickets get seated a LOT at RPGA tables. That is not really true. You can not buy an event at the same time as one you already have a ticket for without contacting the customer support at Gen-Con. I do not blame Gen-Con for having it this way since you do not want people buying up a bunch of tickets they will not use. But it does mean that either I would have needed to leave my weekend clear and hope that RPGA shows up or purchase non-D&D events that I know I would get into. I am not married to D&D so I selected to play a bunch of Shadowrun this year. The odds of getting into an RPGA event with generics might be good, but not better then the 100% I get with a pre-purchased ticket. With these harsh economic times it would seem completely foolhardy to ignore the needs of any customer for a market based entirely on discretionary spending. You want to get people to believe they NEED to buy the 4th edition in order to fully enjoy Gen-Con. Right now I do not have a reason to pack a single 4th edition book for Gen-Con since I could not get into even one 4th ed event.
BrevonDarksteel 05-01-08, 04:03 PM	Keep in mind that if/when the RPGA events show up on the GenCon calendar you'll still be able to register for those events (Until June 28th) - meaning you wouldn't need to "hope" that a generic ticket will get you in. Even if you did, generic tickets get seated a LOT at RPGA tables. Yes, as Band was saying...this is why communication is important. If I want the same chance as someone who hasn't registered for an event at GenCon, I need to know those events are going to hit the schedule ahead of time. If the RPGA event is the same time as a currently scheduled event I have registered for, I now have to go in and cancel that event...which involves some time, and then re-register for the RPGA event. If WotC gives us no notice, many who have current schedules will be out of luck. Generics should not be what WotC is counting on for support this year. I get what you are saying Kenobi about scheduling earlier for genCon and getting ticket sales, but I don't see what this has to do with WotC's submission? WotC's only main output of cash at this point is the exhibitor fee, and a small room fee for maintaining the Sagamore or equivilant space (I'm pretty positive this is usually waived with sufficient event size). I don't see the problem WotC would have with the event submission dates being moved up? The blurbs are apparently ready...that's been stated here, and that's all they need to submit events. Event submission costs them nothing, so there would be no risk with event submission from the litigation...only from their booth fees. If they are involving RPGA (by restricting the non-cash arm of their submission) by waiting on their business end...I'm not sure I see the benefit of it. GM reimbursements would be the only caveat payment WotC would owe if they decided not to attend, but supported the RPGA there...I think that's a very reasonable trade off to make a product launch. It just seems muddled and confused, I'd just like to have an update.
kenobi65 05-01-08, 04:18 PM	I get what you are saying Kenobi about scheduling earlier for genCon and getting ticket sales, but I don't see what this has to do with WotC's submission? Directly: nothing. Indirectly: I'm trying to read tea leaves, and discern if there is, indeed, some sort of "decision point" in the bankruptcy proceedings that is occurring right around now. There've been some postings by people who are, theoretically, in the know, that had suggested that GenCon had some sort of milestone in their proceedings in late April (might have been a court date, I'm not sure). If that's the case, then that's why I theorized they'd want to do what they could to have cash-in-pocket before that date, rather than just after (which could explain moving up event registration). And, if it is the case that there's been some sort of milestone in the proceedings in late April, that milestone may have been the "further proceedings" which WotC was waiting to see the outcome of, before committing to events at GenCon. I don't see the problem WotC would have with the event submission dates being moved up? Again, directly, nothing. I don't think WotC's issue has anything to do with the event dates being moved up, and more to do with the bankruptcy proceeding itself. My guess is that WotC's lawyers have decided that, before they commit anything to GenCon, they want the bankruptcy judge to weigh in on GenCon's plans, and approve for them to go ahead with holding GenCon Indy. Yes, we have no reason to believe that the bankruptcy judge would keep them from holding GenCon Indy...but until he rules, it's still a legal possibility that he'd say "no". Clearly, GenCon's plan is to continue to operate, bring in cashflow, and thus pay off their creditors. But, their judge ultimately has to approve that plan...and it's always possible that he won't. I'm reasonably certain that WotC is aware that their delay is causing consternation for their player base. I'm also reasonably certain that the reason for this has little to do with marketing, and everything to do with the legal situation (a situation which I don't think any of us fully understand).
qstor 05-01-08, 08:11 PM	I think that the most sensible interpretation of the limited information we have would be that WotC do not think it legally wise to pay money to GenCon LLC at the moment. Once the legal circumstances change, that will no longer be the case and WotC will be able to submit their events and pay whatever it is they pay for trade-hall space etc. Why wouldn't WOTC not pay GenCon LLC money? If WOTC wants to go, I'm sure they've reserved the space. The convention is in three months and its the largest at the Indy convention center. And I'm sure WOTC is on the list of creditors in the bankruptcy. It doesnt make sense to me. Mike
RanielK 05-02-08, 11:54 AM	Why wouldn't WOTC not pay GenCon LLC money? If WOTC wants to go, I'm sure they've reserved the space. The convention is in three months and its the largest at the Indy convention center. And I'm sure WOTC is on the list of creditors in the bankruptcy. It doesnt make sense to me. Mike Well, let's look at things. WoTC's budget to support the RPGA isn't huge. They do have to make every dollar count. So WoTC gambles and signs up now. Best Case: The Judge says yes to GenCon LLC's plan, GenCon Indy is on, everyone rejoices! :cheer: :dancin: Worst Case: The Judge says no, GenCon must be broken up now and "sold off" to pay its creditors. Those creditors who paid to be at GenCon Indy 2008 are listed as lowest on totem pole. Now WoTC in its own right might be a creditor due for pay back, but it is a good chance the RPGA as a signed up event organizer isn't. Bad for RPGA, really bad for the little guy who sunk a lot to get to GenCon and make a bit of scratch for himself. :raincloud I'm just glad I only go to GenCon to run. If there's no RPGA to run, then I don't go. If there is, I do. Makes my life simple. All those guys who shelled out bucks to go will be a bit more than peeved if there is no GenCon this year. Mostly because not only won't they be able to play/sell/run/whatever, but the chances are they won't get their money back on top of that.
The_Jester 05-02-08, 01:52 PM	Best Case: The Judge says yes to GenCon LLC's plan, GenCon Indy is on, everyone rejoices! It's not just a judge. They have to present their plan to a judge in a court (which they have 120 days after filing to do), and then convince their creditors, all of them, to agree with the plan (which they have an additional 60 days to do, for a total of 180). Worst Case: The Judge says no, GenCon must be broken up now and "sold off" to pay its creditors. Those creditors who paid to be at GenCon Indy 2008 are listed as lowest on totem pole. Now WoTC in its own right might be a creditor due for pay back, but it is a good chance the RPGA as a signed up event organizer isn't. Bad for RPGA, really bad for the little guy who sunk a lot to get to GenCon and make a bit of scratch for himself. But, as stated earlier, the 180 day deadline after filing -when GenCon can be broken up and sold- falls after GenCon Indy 2008. So that Convention will happen regardless of later events. So, really, the worst case is they suck-in a whole bunch of people for GenCon, cancel at the last minute, then take the money and run leaving even more creditors to tear at the broke shreds.
qstor 05-04-08, 07:52 PM	Here's some stuff on the bankruptcy. http://www.adamjury.com/2008/more-news-about-gen-con-llc-bankruptcy-filing/ I seriously doubt that GenCon LLC will be divided up or the 2008 Indy show cancelled. Its in the creditors interest to let the show go forward because they'll get paid, since its the largest and most profitable show for GenCon LLC. Mike
Gargs454 05-05-08, 05:39 PM	Well, there are really several potential problems here, none of which necessarily make the decision open and shut, but which do (from WoTC's perspective) need to be considered. 1. Presumably, WoTC/Hasbro are creditors of GenCon LLC. If that is the case, they may be waiting to see how GenCon plans to repay its creditors. Perhaps its with future credits at the show, perhaps its with direct pay, but at any rate it may be unknown at this time. 2. There is a chance (albeit extremely small imho) that GenCon will be cancelled due to the bankruptcy. It costs money, and lots of it, for WoTC to attend. WoTC has to get their people there. They have to get their booth there. They have to ship their products there. They have to find places for their people to stay, perhaps even find space to store their product that won't fit in the booth, etc. All of this has to be arranged, and in most cases (shipping excluded) paid for, in advance. That is a lot of money to shell out for something that ultimately, may not happen. 3. WoTC is a strong business partner with Lucasfilms. Lucasfilms is suing GenCon LLC. The licensing agreement is presumably not indefinite and it would be logical to assume that Hasbro/WoTC want to keep that licensing when it expires. This means keeping Lucasfilms happy. Now, as for the lack of communication, there are also multiple things for WoTC to consider. 1. They don't want to anger any of their business partners and potentiall "call them out" so to speak even if unintentional. Both Lucasfilms and GenCon are partners. 2. Its still up in the air as to whether or not they will attend, so they certainly don't want to say that they are not going to be there, while at the same time they don't want to say that they will be there either. Which leaves us still in the limbo of "Wait and see". 3. Is it bad marketing to not make things clear for the fans/customers? Of course. However, they still need to look at the big picture which is money. Obviously being able to have a big kickoff at GenCon Indy would be good for both 4th Ed and LFR. However, neither 4th Ed or LFR are dependent upon a succesful Con at GenCon for their ultimate survival. Only a small percentage of players actually go to Gen Con -- even though there are a ton of people there. Both 4th Ed and LFR will be dependent upon their content to survive. If players like what's in 4th Ed then they will buy the products, if they don't they wont. Nothing that happens at Gen Con will change that. Players won't say "Well the rules for 4th Ed are really bad and convoluted, but hey WoTC had an awesome presence at GenCon so, I'm buying everything from 4th Ed I can." Likewise players won't say "Sure I really like 4th Ed, in fact its way better than 3rd Ed but since WoTC wasn't at GenCon I'm not going to buy it." Additionally, while I'm sure WotC grosses a lot of money at GenCon, I'm not certain as to how much profit they actually make at GenCon. As stated earlier, the cost output to attend by WoTC is huge. Event tickets certainly help defray that, as does the sales they make, but I'm not certain that it will result in a huge profit. Ultimately WoTC's presence at GenCon is more about Marketing than it is about Profit. (and yes I realize that the two are related) In the end though, 4th Ed will live or die by its content, not by WoTC's presence (or lack thereof) at GenCon.
Sartredes 05-05-08, 07:29 PM	Just for FYI purposes, this is information from Businessweek about the Gen Con bankruptcy including a list of creditors: Gen Con LLC Bankruptcy Gen Con, LLC filed a voluntary petition for reorganization under Chapter 11 in the US Bankruptcy Court for the Western District of Washington on February 15, 2008. The company listed assets and liabilities in the range of $1 million to $10 million. It retained Shelly Crocker of Crocker Kuno LLC as its legal counsel. The main unsecured creditors included George Fern Company, Hasbro Inc., Lucasfilm Ltd., Make-A-Wish Foundation Of America, Los Angeles Convention And Exhibition ... Center Authority, Inc., The Westin Bonaventure Hotel and Suites, State Board of Equalization, Hidden City Games, LLC, Millennium Biltmore Hotel, and Internal Revenue Service. The company filed for bankruptcy due to significant unforeseen expenses associated with the expansion of its core business to encompass externally licensed events. Creditor / Lender Hasbro Inc. Hidden City Games, LLC Internal Revenue Service Los Angeles Convention And Exhibition Center Authority (Inc) Lucasfilm Ltd. Make-A-Wish Foundation Of America Millennium Biltmore Hotel State Board of Equalization The George E. Fern Company The Westin Bonaventure Hotel and Suites Legal Advisor Crocker Kuno LLC
Ishorn 05-05-08, 09:17 PM	Just for FYI purposes, this is information from Businessweek about the Gen Con bankruptcy including a list of creditors: Gen Con LLC Bankruptcy Gen Con, LLC filed a voluntary petition for reorganization under Chapter 11 in the US Bankruptcy Court for the Western District of Washington on February 15, 2008. The company listed assets and liabilities in the range of $1 million to $10 million. It retained Shelly Crocker of Crocker Kuno LLC as its legal counsel. The main unsecured creditors included George Fern Company, Hasbro Inc., Lucasfilm Ltd., Make-A-Wish Foundation Of America, Los Angeles Convention And Exhibition ... Center Authority, Inc., The Westin Bonaventure Hotel and Suites, State Board of Equalization, Hidden City Games, LLC, Millennium Biltmore Hotel, and Internal Revenue Service. The company filed for bankruptcy due to significant unforeseen expenses associated with the expansion of its core business to encompass externally licensed events. Creditor / Lender Hasbro Inc. Hidden City Games, LLC Internal Revenue Service Los Angeles Convention And Exhibition Center Authority (Inc) Lucasfilm Ltd. Make-A-Wish Foundation Of America Millennium Biltmore Hotel State Board of Equalization The George E. Fern Company The Westin Bonaventure Hotel and Suites Legal Advisor Crocker Kuno LLC The first creditor is probably why Wizards is not involved with Gen Con just yet. I think the parent company wants paid.
Wavester 05-05-08, 10:32 PM	The first creditor is probably why Wizards is not involved with Gen Con just yet. I think the parent company wants paid. and the second creditor is a company owned by Peter (who also owns Gencon). Wonder how the heck that works. Interesting Dave
hunter_gather 05-05-08, 11:57 PM	Seems the crditors are listed alphabetically. I wouldnt take their position to mean more than that.
kenobi65 05-06-08, 12:06 AM	Seems the crditors are listed alphabetically. I wouldnt take their position to mean more than that. I agree, the order is likely irrelevant. But, it points out that WotC's parent company is directly involved in the bankruptcy proceedings, as a creditor of GenCon LLC's, and that likely explains why the RPGA is being told to hold off.
Wavester 05-06-08, 09:42 AM	Oh I'm not assigning any rank based on position in the list. As you said they're obviously in alpha order. I just find it funny that a company Peter owns is in the bankruptcy proceedings for another company he owns.
The_Jester 05-06-08, 12:21 PM	Nothing that happens at Gen Con will change that. Players won't say "Well the rules for 4th Ed are really bad and convoluted, but hey WoTC had an awesome presence at GenCon so, I'm buying everything from 4th Ed I can." Likewise players won't say "Sure I really like 4th Ed, in fact its way better than 3rd Ed but since WoTC wasn't at GenCon I'm not going to buy it." Well, all the companies planning on doing 4e books won't be able to at GenCon. And Wizards won't be there. So it might be 4e lite. So players looking around for a game might *gasp* try a different game. They might get sold on the competitor's products. They might be wow-ed by Piazo and Pathfinder and getting to keep their 3e original books. They might stumble onto GURPS or Storyteller or the Cortex system and fall in love.
tomjscott 05-06-08, 12:25 PM	So far there is one big 4e event premiering at Gen Con no matter what happens with WoTC. Goodman games is presenting their first 4e DCC Tournament.
tripperm 05-06-08, 03:42 PM	Well, all the companies planning on doing 4e books won't be able to at GenCon. And Wizards won't be there. So it might be 4e lite. Source please? Exactly where are you getting the information that Wizards will not be at GenCon? To my knowledge they haven't said one way or the other yet.
The_Jester 05-07-08, 11:53 AM	Source please? Exactly where are you getting the information that Wizards will not be at GenCon? To my knowledge they haven't said one way or the other yet. It's the logical conclusion of the current events. And it was the response to another statement that Wizard's (possible) non-attendance would not affect 4e. I countered that Wizard's (possible) non-attendance would. At this point the bankruptcy proceedings are have to go through the creditor's lawyers (if GenCon has even submitted a proposal, which they have until June/July to do). Which means it's going through Hasbro's legal and accounting departments. Not WotC who are likely so far out of the loop they see the loop as a dot. Hasbro's not likely to care about the launch of a secondary part of a third-rate sub-company or even the minor sales of the major game to said third-rate sub-company. The people doing all the negotiations probably don't even know what the RPGA is. So we have to let legal check to see if the proposal is acceptable. Then we have to wait as the knowledge it's been accepted trickles down from legal- Hasbro- WotC management- WotC staff -RPGA- GenCon- us. So best case, it's a week after anything newsworth happens that we find out. But at this point, with GenCon registration closed and just over three months to go, it's probably a safe bet to assume WotC is not attending, just so back-up plans can occur.
hunter_gather 05-07-08, 08:53 PM	But at this point, with GenCon registration closed and just over three months to go, it's probably a safe bet to assume WotC is not attending, just so back-up plans can occur. Its reasonable to assume it's unlikely at this point, I agree. Backup plans should have already been made once registration opened to the public. Wizards/RPGA made a huge mistake there by not coming out with some concrete answers and lost a lot of people who would have been pleased to support it. You just cant gaurantee youll be able to get a seat even if they show up later. If they do go they will certainly see a lot of support for their product in genreral, but theyve alienated their player base (yet again) by not bothering to come onto their own boards and give us a straight up answer as to WTH is going on. So Im sure the support they get wont be what it would have been. Good legal decision. Bad marketing one. In the end, I think the players lose more than WOTC.
pedr 05-07-08, 09:10 PM	What do you want them to say? If the situation is that they do not know whether the legal considerations will allow them to attend, that's all they can say. That is what they appear to have said via Customer Services. They can't say "We're not attending" ... they probably want to attend and won't say that until the last minute. They can't say "We're attending" as to do so removes a potential bargaining chip and may not be legally possible under the circumstances. So they're left saying nothing specific, which is what has to happen when legal processes are taking place - plus I expect there might be an element of business here too: WotC/Hasbro might want to receive discounts or write off some of the money they're owed in lieu of paying fees to GenCon - and such things might have to be approved by the court, now. It is, probably, a very sticky situation indeed, and we're not going to hear anything until it's finalised as it's never wise to blurt intentions out in public when negotiations are ongoing.
hunter_gather 05-07-08, 09:17 PM	I dont want them to say they are or arent going. It would just be nice if for once (on their own messageboards, they seem to post on EnWorld and other places a heck of a lot more) they would say ANYTHING regarding the situation. The only reason we know whats going on afaik is from somebody's post on the GenCon boards. Why cant they bother to spend the 15 seconds it would take to give us a little blurb saying something about whats going on. I wouldnt even care if it was ambiguous as heck, just letting us know they give a crud would be nice. I appreciate the RPGA folks that have popped in and said something in support, but none of them are paid employees with any real weight to their words. Don't get me wrong, I think the guy thats running the RPGA show (Chris?) is doing a helluva job in the situation hes been given.
Surgebuster 05-07-08, 09:57 PM	It would just be nice if for once (on their own messageboards, they seem to post on EnWorld and other places a heck of a lot more) they would say ANYTHING regarding the situation. The only reason we know whats going on afaik is from somebody's post on the GenCon boards. Why cant they bother to spend the 15 seconds it would take to give us a little blurb saying something about whats going on. I wouldnt even care if it was ambiguous as heck, just letting us know they give a crud would be nice. WotC have made a statement about the situation. There is nothing else to say on the matter until that situation changes. Sheesh, for all the posturing that goes on these boards about WotC not producing things quick enough, I wonder why anyone would want them to waste their time repeating the same statement over and over. Unless you expect them to update us with information such as: "We've got a conference call with our legal team at 10:30am, followed by lunch, with the early afternoon set aside for pushing over old people and mocking ugly babies in public, possibly the posting footage on YouTube. We'll make a statement about the download rate of said video tomorrow, oh and there's probably another legal meeting. Maybe." Don't get me wrong, I think the guy thats running the RPGA show (Chris?) is doing a helluva job in the situation hes been given. I don't see that Ian or Chris have done anything different to the rest of the WotC staff, certainly not anything that inspires harsh criticism of the latter and glowing praise of the former. Forums such as these are breeding grounds for speculation and that is fine, however, at some point we will have to accept the fact that there is a plethora of information that cannot be legally disclosed to the player base and that old people pushing and ugly baby mocking aside, WotC doesn't go out of its way to screw over its customers. :) Joe
hunter_gather 05-07-08, 10:43 PM	WotC have made a statement about the situation. There is nothing else to say on the matter until that situation changes. Sheesh, for all the posturing that goes on these boards about WotC not producing things quick enough, I wonder why anyone would want them to waste their time repeating the same statement over and over. Unless you expect them to update us with information such as: "We've got a conference call with our legal team at 10:30am, followed by lunch, with the early afternoon set aside for pushing over old people and mocking ugly babies in public, possibly the posting footage on YouTube. We'll make a statement about the download rate of said video tomorrow, oh and there's probably another legal meeting. Maybe." Where was that done? I must have missed it but i appreciate you showing it. Nobody wants them to repeat the same thing over and over, all Im asking (and I think others would agree) is some acknowledgement on occasion that they take our concerns seriously, especially on matters like GenCon which are big events in the community. I think the WOTC does a fine job in general with producing things and nothing I said had anything to do with that. All Im asking for is improved communications I don't see that Ian or Chris have done anything different to the rest of the WotC staff, certainly not anything that inspires harsh criticism of the latter and glowing praise of the former. I never critcized the teams performance, just the lack of communication. And I DO strongly believe that Ian and Chris deserve some kind of award for organizing the RPGA with only themselves and half another. There's a LOT of administration involved in that and it deserves more staff. It makes sense they put the money into things that actually make them money so RPGA is fairly low on that totem pole. But the quality of work coming from a woefully understaffed department is truly amazing and deserving of recognition. Forums such as these are breeding grounds for speculation and that is fine, however, at some point we will have to accept the fact that there is a plethora of information that cannot be legally disclosed to the player base and that old people pushing and ugly baby mocking aside, WotC doesn't go out of its way to screw over its customers. :) Joe Again, Im not trying to speculate with my concerns at all(except for my guess that it will cost them at the show, I have friends personally who have decided to do other things and there have been several posts to that effect, i think its logical to say you wont have those people attending now when they would have before), Im just asking for some communication. We all know theres plenty they cant comment on along many fronts and I dont expect them to. Updates on things of this importance however should be near top of the list. I dont mean to come off as atagonistic, but I know I may have and I apologize if I did, I'm just frustrated and annoyed and those can be a near double. Once again, the WOTC team is doing a great job in almost every aspect, I just find fault with the communication.
kenobi65 05-08-08, 11:02 AM	Im just asking for some communication. We all know theres plenty they cant comment on along many fronts and I dont expect them to. Updates on things of this importance however should be near top of the list. When it comes to situations like this, lawyers are involved. It's entirely possible that Ian or Chris would *like* to say more, but they're being instructed not to, until there's new actual news.
RSouthard 05-08-08, 11:26 AM	Forums such as these are breeding grounds for speculation and that is fine, however, at some point we will have to accept the fact that there is a plethora of information that cannot be legally disclosed to the player base and that old people pushing and ugly baby mocking aside, WotC doesn't go out of its way to screw over its customers. :) Joe Ok two things about this. First of all there is no legal reason that WOTC cannot decide to attend Gencon or not. I am not a lawyer but I seriously doubt that any statutes dictates weather or not the RPGA attends to a convention. I hardly imagine that anyone will be charged with a crime if an announcement either way is made. So lets leave the legality out of it. Its simple....No one has made up their mind and we will not know anything until they do. GenCon screwed up. Peter admitted that himself. Now they are in financial trouble. WOTC (read Hasbro) has not decided what to do about it. We are left in the lurch until they do. Second, no I am certain that WOTC does not go out of its way to screw over its customers, but they are not going out of there way to try and retain us as customers either.
kenobi65 05-08-08, 12:09 PM	First of all there is no legal reason that WOTC cannot decide to attend Gencon or not. I am not a lawyer but I seriously doubt that any statutes dictates weather or not the RPGA attends to a convention. I hardly imagine that anyone will be charged with a crime if an announcement either way is made. So lets leave the legality out of it. We're not talking "legality" as in "it would be illegal for RPGA to attend". We're talking "legality" as in "Hasbro is a creditor in a bankruptcy proceeding against GenCon, and it seems likely that Hasbro's lawyers are advising WotC to not commit to anything regarding GenCon at this point in the proceeding."
BrevonDarksteel 05-08-08, 12:46 PM	We're not talking "legality" as in "it would be illegal for RPGA to attend". We're talking "legality" as in "Hasbro is a creditor in a bankruptcy proceeding against GenCon, and it seems likely that Hasbro's lawyers are advising WotC to not commit to anything regarding GenCon at this point in the proceeding." Yes, but while its great to get everyone's thoughts on why RPGA/WotC might not be telling us anything...where's the harm in saying... "Hey...this is (fillin the blank)...we understand the frustration many of you are feeling regarding the abscence of RPGA sanctioned events at GenCon this year. Be assured, we are working on providing you prompt information regarding this situation as soon as its available. Right now, it looks like we may have an answer in early June (making that date up...no panics). However, should this date slip, I'll be glad to keep you informed as to the next available information release." That's just basic customer service with no legal commitments or hassles. It just lets the customer know that their business is important, and they matter...with minimal effort from the company. Where's the harm in that?
hunter_gather 05-08-08, 01:51 PM	"Hey...this is (fillin the blank)...we understand the frustration many of you are feeling regarding the abscence of RPGA sanctioned events at GenCon this year. Be assured, we are working on providing you prompt information regarding this situation as soon as its available. Right now, it looks like we may have an answer in early June (making that date up...no panics). However, should this date slip, I'll be glad to keep you informed as to the next available information release." That's just basic customer service with no legal commitments or hassles. It just lets the customer know that their business is important, and they matter...with minimal effort from the company. Where's the harm in that? Completely agree, that's what I've been looking for and shows the customers on their forums a modicum of respect.
tomjscott 05-08-08, 02:02 PM	Eric, from the East Rift region of LFR wrote customer service to ask about the Gen Con issue. Here is is question and the customer service response as of May 2nd. Customer (Eric Brittain) 05/02/2008 09:18 AM When and where will the new Living Forgotten Realms campaign premier? I had heard it was GenCon 2008, but so far no LFR events have been posted. Please let me know. Thanks, Eric W. Brittain RPGA#501427 ******************** RPGA Number: 501427 Response (Support Agent) 05/02/2008 04:39 PM Eric, That is correct, Living Forgotten Realms will be launching at Gen Con Indy 2008. Check out the Living Forgotten Realms page on the D&D website at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/news/20070905a for further information about the new campaign. <<snipped boilerplate feedback and account update sections>> Organized Play Support Wizards of the Coast
asoka 05-08-08, 04:07 PM	I love that they send you to a webpage with information now 8 months out of date. It still has the call for applications and announcements about what will happen at DnD Experience. Seriously, the date on that document is 09/05/2007. Granted - this is a general problem with the RPGA and the LFR in particular - there is absolutely no central place for up to date data.
tomjscott 05-08-08, 04:11 PM	Regardless of the date on the referred webpage, the customer service response was just 6 days ago. So it clearly indicates that they are fully intending to go ahead as planned. The "powers that be" may change that at some point, but that's neither here no there. The main thing is that they've spoken clearly about their intentions and that's what most people here are complaining about. :)
BrevonDarksteel 05-08-08, 10:06 PM	The main thing is that they've spoken clearly about their intentions and that's what most people here are complaining about. :) I don't understand how its speaking clearly when you had to e-mail and get a response...that up until you...not WotC... posted it, no one else knew. I know the plan is to release at GenCon....we all know that. However...the abscence of blurbs (End of April wasn't it?) and actual events at GenCon leave your statement wanting. A clear single post stating what I posted above or in a similar manner would end a lot of fears around here...but I guess its neither here nor there. The faithful will believe, us doubters will doubt. Its up to WotC what impression they want to leave of their CS and product. Right now? I'm not impressed.
tomjscott 05-08-08, 10:36 PM	Well, I'm just saying that they said they were going to GenCon and premiering LFR there back in 2007. Since then they have not once said that they aren't going. Finally, the e-mail from customer support confirms that their plans have not changed. That's all I'm saying. :)
Ishorn 05-09-08, 06:24 AM	It is only May and the con is in August. I am pretty sure if the matter is resolved in July that Gen Con will not say to Wizards you can't come. I guess it's not great to be planning on playing these LFR adventures at Gen Con and having to wait for people who really could care less about a new living campaign to get this legal matter resolved.
The_Jester 05-09-08, 11:01 AM	Eric, from the East Rift region of LFR wrote customer service to ask about the Gen Con issue. Here is is question and the customer service response as of May 2nd. Customer (Eric Brittain) 05/02/2008 09:18 AM When and where will the new Living Forgotten Realms campaign premier? I had heard it was GenCon 2008, but so far no LFR events have been posted. Please let me know. Thanks, Eric W. Brittain RPGA#501427 ******************** RPGA Number: 501427 Response (Support Agent) 05/02/2008 04:39 PM Eric, That is correct, Living Forgotten Realms will be launching at Gen Con Indy 2008. Check out the Living Forgotten Realms page on the D&D website at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/news/20070905a for further information about the new campaign. <<snipped boilerplate feedback and account update sections>> Organized Play Support Wizards of the Coast I love that we're trusting the word of a "support agent" as gospel. Support agent = call center or lowest rung in the corporate totem pole (apparently though, just above game staff for a world-wide organization). But hey, I'm sure WotC's support agents are well informed with Hasbro's legal proceedings.
maijstral2 05-09-08, 12:59 PM	It is only May and the con is in August. I am pretty sure if the matter is resolved in July that Gen Con will not say to Wizards you can't come. I guess it's not great to be planning on playing these LFR adventures at Gen Con and having to wait for people who really could care less about a new living campaign to get this legal matter resolved. Correct, Gencon on their site has said that no matter when WOTC submits,even at the very last minute, they will give them space on the dealer floor and in the convention as much as they need. To be fair they have said the same about other big companies attending GenCon. With this attitude WOTC doesn't really need to worry about submitting in a timely manner....well except to keep from annoying their customers and fans.
Lord_Apis 05-10-08, 04:45 PM	I love that we're trusting the word of a "support agent" as gospel. Support agent = call center or lowest rung in the corporate totem pole (apparently though, just above game staff for a world-wide organization). But hey, I'm sure WotC's support agents are well informed with Hasbro's legal proceedings. Are you serious? The only thing I've see so far that says that Wizards may not be at Gencon is a couple of letters that supposedly came from CS. Posted by some guy on some site. Both complete matches including typos. Believe the I knew this guy, who had this friend, who knew this girl string if you wish. I'm chalking this one up to another net rumor out of control until there is something posted or announced by someone official. Until then reading all this speculation and rumor is a waste of time.
Solace 05-11-08, 01:23 AM	Why not just email WotC customer service yourself? I did, and got the same Q&A pasted answer. Which, while not publicly posted, did indeed seem to confirm the 'not attending at this moment' situation. In fact, I wish more people would, it might let them know that not just the few people who have emailed are concerned. If you want the exact email: Rebecca, Here is a short FAQ on what’s happening with Wizards and Gen Con this year. Q: Why are there no D&D or Wizards events on the schedule posted for Gen Con at www.gencon.com? A: Wizards had not submitted a schedule of events by the Gen Con deadline. Since we hadn’t submitted our own schedule, none of our events are in the official Gen Con schedule at this time. Q: Will Wizards attend Gen Con in 2008? A: As you may be aware, Gen Con is currently in chapter 11 bankruptcy. Wizards’ plans relative to Gen Con are dependent on the course of proceedings in US bankruptcy court. While we hope to participate in Gen Con, we must await further proceedings in the bankruptcy matter before we are able to confirm our plans. Q: You previously announced that [Living Forgotten Realms/D&D Miniatures Championship/any other event] would be at Gen Con. Is that still true? A: We are committed to our specific programs, such as the launch of Living Forgotten Realms and the D&D Miniatures Championship. Those events will take place in some form. However, as we cannot make a general prediction about our relationship with Gen Con, we likewise can’t make any pronouncements yet about a specific program. Keep visiting www.wizards.com for the most up-to-date information about our events and programs. We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. <a href="http://www.wizards.com/survey/custservemail0105.htm"> Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire</a>.
qstor 05-12-08, 09:35 AM	and the second creditor is a company owned by Peter (who also owns Gencon). Wonder how the heck that works. Interesting Dave One company loaned the other company money on paper...tax reasons probably....who knows corporate finance stuff...lol Mike
Surgebuster 05-12-08, 04:27 PM	who knows corporate finance stuff...lol Mike Well...apparently a bunch of people posting in this thread consider themselves experts!
Gargs454 05-12-08, 04:54 PM	Well, all the companies planning on doing 4e books won't be able to at GenCon. And Wizards won't be there. So it might be 4e lite. So players looking around for a game might *gasp* try a different game. They might get sold on the competitor's products. They might be wow-ed by Piazo and Pathfinder and getting to keep their 3e original books. They might stumble onto GURPS or Storyteller or the Cortex system and fall in love. Okay, so I was outta town for a while, so just now responding to this. Why wouldn't other companies get the chance to sell their 4e books and/or products? 4e will have been out for over 2 months at that point, and I highly doubt that retailers would be prohibited from selling products for 4e. That being said, I will agree that it does give other companies an opening. As you mentioned, GenCon has just become much more important to Pathfinder as a result of the (at the very least) delay in submitting RPGA events. Of course, players who want to do Pathfinder will only get to keep their books for one more year since Pathfinder will be converting to its own ruleset in 2009. The point that I was trying to make though, and perhaps I didn't express it very well, is that the vast majority of D&D players, and RPG'ers in general, will be unaffected by GenCon since they do not go. It is only a small percentage of players that actually go (probably less than 1%) -- and yes this is a pure guess on my part. Some of those attendees will quite possibly become hooked on a different game. Some of them won't. Some of them will swear off 4th Ed. Some of them won't. In the end, though, I firmly believe that 4th Ed will live or die by the quality of its content, and not by its presence (or lack thereof) at GenCon. On a side note, if the RPGA is unable to attend GenCon due to the pending litigation, it could actually result in a long term win for the consumers. As you have mentioned, other games might get a boost as a result. This would then mean more competition for WotC and competition generally is a good thing for the consumer.
kenobi65 05-12-08, 05:54 PM	Why wouldn't other companies get the chance to sell their 4e books and/or products? 4e will have been out for over 2 months at that point, and I highly doubt that retailers would be prohibited from selling products for 4e. I don't think they'd be prohibited...but I seem to recall that only the companies that ponied up the money for the preview version of the license were going to be allowed to sell 4E stuff in 2008...and I also seem to recall that there's been delays in getting that material out (IIRC, it *still* hasn't been released). So, it may be a case of the companies not having enough time to get products ready by mid-August.
Keithric 05-12-08, 08:00 PM	Only WotC can sell 4e books prior to October... so, it'd be _really_ nice if this got figured out.
pedr 05-13-08, 04:21 AM	Only WotC can create 4E books before October (the release of the GSL, the successor to the d20 STL, was delayed for legal reasons). Of course none of this prohibits traders from selling WotC 4E books (PH, DMG, MM, KotS, FRCS, Player's Guide to the Realms, etc). But whether or not WotC are there, there will be no 'third-party' D&D products using the 4E rules at GenCon.
Butterface 05-14-08, 11:41 AM	This is unacceptable. It is mid-May, and we still don't know jack. YES or NO for crying out loud! And if yes, put the events up on the Gencon site so I can register! It's time for Wizards to get their heads out of their nether-regions, IMHO. I'm completely unimpressed with this.
Surgebuster 05-14-08, 07:01 PM	This is unacceptable. It is mid-May, and we still don't know jack. YES or NO for crying out loud! And if yes, put the events up on the Gencon site so I can register! It's time for Wizards to get their heads out of their nether-regions, IMHO. I'm completely unimpressed with this. This kind of comment serves no constructive purpose. Clearly, this is an extremely complex situation that cannot be boiled down to "YES or NO" at this time. You'll note that between GenCon LLC and WotC, only one company has filed for bankruptcy, therefore I am not sure that WotC are the ones who have their heads inappropriately placed. If you'd like to redirect your anger toward the company that caused this by running their business into the ground, feel free. I don't think that would be any more constructive than directing it toward WotC though. :) Joe
BrevonDarksteel 05-14-08, 09:36 PM	This kind of comment serves no constructive purpose. Clearly, this is an extremely complex situation that cannot be boiled down to "YES or NO" at this time. You'll note that between GenCon LLC and WotC, only one company has filed for bankruptcy, therefore I am not sure that WotC are the ones who have their heads inappropriately placed. If you'd like to redirect your anger toward the company that caused this by running their business into the ground, feel free. I don't think that would be any more constructive than directing it toward WotC though. :) Joe LOL...you're funny Surge....Pointing to WotC as a model of business efficiency...heh...that's cute. I'm sure the reason we're seeing 4th edition is all because the business model just couldn't handle much more 3rd edition growth...right? Actually, it IS a model that can come down to YES or NO. Hasbro just doesn't want it to yet. All they have to say is NO we won't be at GenCon if they really feel like everyone else here on the boards about that company. WotC has touted that they will intiate the Living FR at GenCon. I'm holding them to that for now...I know things change, business models shift, and sometimes things well...aren't fair. But its not GenCon that's calling me impatient and annoying. I'm not sure what to think when someone tells me..."It will be out next week"...two weeks later I ask "Any news yet?" only to get told that I'm bothering them and I really shouldn't expect them to do what they said they would. I work hard too...you wouldn't believe the pressure in my industry for deadlines and compliance. I know what its like to work constantly on NDA materials and contracts. So, I appreciate what the crew is doing around here. However, that said, there's no excuse for turning around and saying its annoying for us to ask about deadlines they created.
Surgebuster 05-14-08, 10:05 PM	LOL...you're funny Surge....Pointing to WotC as a model of business efficiency...heh...that's cute. I'm sure the reason we're seeing 4th edition is all because the business model just couldn't handle much more 3rd edition growth...right? I'm certain I've never accused WotC of being a model of business efficiency. Although, compared to TSR... ;) But its not GenCon that's calling me impatient and annoying. I recall Chris calling cellout23 impatient in another thread as he responded to his emoticon and caps-heavy demands, but I don't recall him calling anyone annoying. Actually, I think he called me annoying a couple of days ago somewhere else, but that has nothing to do with this particular GenCon. :D I work hard too...you wouldn't believe the pressure in my industry for deadlines and compliance. I know what its like to work constantly on NDA materials and contracts. So, I appreciate what the crew is doing around here. However, that said, there's no excuse for turning around and saying its annoying for us to ask about deadlines they created. Apart from the annoying comment, I understand. It is hard to empathize (as opposed to sympathize) without having to 'prove' to others that you've experienced a like predicament in the real world, no?
pedr 05-15-08, 05:43 AM	WotC announcing that it is not attending GenCon would be a vote of no-confidence in GenCon. As Hasbro depend on the success of GenCon to have any chance of seeing more than a small proportion of the money they are owed, this is not going to be something they will announce unless it is impossible for them to attend GenCon. WotC announcing now that it's all fine and they will be attending GenCon is probably something which is subject to ratification higher up the Hasbro food-chain, and dependent on agreement from lawyers and other stakeholders. Some have even suggested that Lucasfilm may put pressure on Hasbro in order to increase the pressure on GenCon. That's idle speculation, of course, but is an illustration of how horribly complicated this is. Is it terribly frustrating that we don't know whether WotC will be at GenCon? Of course. Is there the potential for the fans to be the losers whatever happens - either because they have paid for tickets they no longer want, or haven't paid for them yet and find things have sold out by the time we know what's going on? Of course. Is this something that either GenCon or WotC can alleviate at the moment? Possibly not: I am convinced that as soon as WotC can legally and in line with sensible business practice announce that it is attending GenCon, it will announce that. As they have not announced that, I believe that it means that they can not announce that, and so cannot be blamed for it. In fact, perhaps the most obvious organisation to blame would be Lucasfilm, which filed a suit at a point in the year when it's obvious that a company like GenCon will have significantly more liabilities than assets, rather than waiting until after GenCon Indy when GenCon LLC might have been able to pay the debt off far more easily. Blame probably also ought to be placed in GenCon's court, but only the blame of taking risks and attempting new endeavours - none of these problems stem from GenCon running GenCon LLC, they are all due to attempts to bring GenCon to the West Coast, and to the running of the Star Wars Celebration conventions.
Butterface 05-15-08, 01:14 PM	This kind of comment serves no constructive purpose. Clearly, this is an extremely complex situation that cannot be boiled down to "YES or NO" at this time. You'll note that between GenCon LLC and WotC, only one company has filed for bankruptcy, therefore I am not sure that WotC are the ones who have their heads inappropriately placed. If you'd like to redirect your anger toward the company that caused this by running their business into the ground, feel free. I don't think that would be any more constructive than directing it toward WotC though. :) Joe The constructive purpose my post serves is to let WotC know that: 1. They've totally bumbled this release of LFR as of yet; 2. They've had little to no interaction with the community on the matter (pretty much leaving us hanging); 3. I as a consumer realize points 1 and 2, and I'm ****** about it. Look, I don't normally attend Gencon. I made plans to go because of all the freaking hype surrounding the release of LFR. If they're not going to Gencon, neither am I. I'm not going to drive across the country and pay a bunch of money to play games I'm only kind of interested in. Wizards can't give me information they don't have (although they should have it), but they can at least get on these boards and give us some updates or SOMETHING. It's called customer service, is that constructive enough for you?
Madfox11 05-16-08, 04:49 AM	You are assuming that they (a) have updates and/or (b) are allowed to give those updates. The people directly responsible for the LFR campaign are not particularly happy about the situation either, that is a guarantee I can give you. We have been told that LFR will launch in August, and that has not changed. Pieter Sleijpen LFR Global Administrator
Arksorn 05-18-08, 08:23 PM	From Here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=15876256 — I learned that we are, indeed, goin' to Gen Con! Clearly, one of the big thrusts of the show will be 4E. We have a cap on the number of R&D people we can send, and I *did* attend last year, so I'm not sure whether I'll be attending this year. I should know in the next few days, one way or the other.
tomjscott 05-18-08, 08:30 PM	I for one never doubted it for a minute. :)