Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cetiken 09-06-07, 12:53 PM	I just thought I'd take this opportunity to point out some of the obvious lessons we learned though playing LG and the D&D Campaigns (with bonus commentary after the soundbite). 1. The online tracking system won't work. This is the big thing I think has been evident from the D&D Campaigns as everything from typos during entry to illegible RPGA numbers to glitches requires a lot of effort to fix. Lets make the paper carried the official tally of xp/gp/fame. 2. We wana play. My group was initially psyched about Legend of the Green Regent. Unfortunately, at the beginning there were so few mods that level kicks would hit before it was possible to level up (we hadn't been to any of the big cons). My group plays once a week. It will be nice if we can play Living Relms. If we can't ... well then I'm guessing we wont. The flip side of this coin is one that is rumored to be addressed in LR, the fact that by an accident of geography it was much harder to play out of region mods in LG than for someone who lived in Ohio or Virgina. 3. Interacticves are Intresting. If done right anyway. Its a lot of fun to mingle with 30-70 players all working toward one goal whose outcome will change the storyline (and not necessarily the way DMs expect). Please continue theses things and let the outcomes be fluid. I'm sure a lot of scenes from FR books would make easy interactives, but the majority of those have outcomes that are written in stone and not as fun. Personally, I prefer 'social' interactives to battle interactives, but there's opportunity for both. 4. Continuality is Key. The main reason that me and my friends have quit D&D Campaighns in favor of LG or Blackmoor or Arcanis is the lack of any sense of continuality when you're rebuying eveything not just every level but every module it seems to reduce the amount of emotional attachment to the characters and the story. 5. Your NPCs stink and are all going to die. This isn't really a lesson learned from prior RPGA campaigns, but from a home campaign. Everyone knows that the Relms is a fantastic place full of spectacular characters who can reshape the world with the wave of a hand (or the slashing of two scimitars). However, the game isn't about how cool NPCs are. The game is about letting the PCs reshape the world (or at least a chunk of it) in their own image. Now I know that for various marketing reasons it'd be impolitic to officially kill everyones favorite rogue/cleric/wizard/archmage/fighter/superhero (the novel writers aren't that brave and it probably wouldn't stick anyway). That doesn't mean they can't retire and go on hiatus to their own isolated forest or demiplane. Its my opinion that these superheros who can't help but make us regular PC heroes feel insignificant and their handling will determine the success of the campaign. Personally I'd like 'm all to stay off screen, but that's probably impossible.
ankhwearer 09-06-07, 05:50 PM	1. The online tracking system won't work. They work now. I agree that there were tons of problems with the Xen'drik tracking system in the first three months of the campaign, but the only problems now seem to be from DMs that screw up on their entries. Seems like an overstatement to just declare that they won't work for LR, or any other campaign. There are nine months to develop and debug a track system, which is about eight months more than they used for Xen'drik.
jhorred 09-06-07, 08:36 PM	They work now. I agree that there were tons of problems with the Xen'drik tracking system in the first three months of the campaign, but the only problems now seem to be from DMs that screw up on their entries. Seems like an overstatement to just declare that they won't work for LR, or any other campaign. There are nine months to develop and debug a track system, which is about eight months more than they used for Xen'drik. Regardless of whether they will or will not work, it seems few people have any faith in them working, and have no desire to see an attempt at an online tracking system. (Myself included.) IMHO, there's nothing wrong with the good ol' pen and paper method. It works, so why change it? (It's kinda like getting a trophy for making it to the end.)
The_Voice_Of_Reason 09-07-07, 11:11 AM	1. The online tracking system won't work. 2. We wana play. 3. Interacticves are Intresting. 5. Your NPCs stink and are all going to die. I more or less agree with 1-3, not all of the details perhaps, I personally tend to enjoy BIs a bit more than LARP interactives, but the basic points are spot on. I REALLY agree with #5! Elminster is a great NOVEL character, but has no place in a module where the Player Characters are, or should be, the Main Characters of the adventure. If Elminster shows up in LFR as often as Vecna did in LG it is still too often. 4. Continuality is Key. The main reason that me and my friends have quit D&D Campaighns in favor of LG or Blackmoor or Arcanis is the lack of any sense of continuality when you're rebuying eveything not just every level but every module it seems to reduce the amount of emotional attachment to the characters and the story. Continuity is great up to a point, but I feel that too many LG mods only make sense if you've played the last 15 mods in the series, participated in the BI of some long forgotten convention, read the now-out-of-print-novel, studied 700 pages of yahoo posts, and read all the interludes from Geoff. It is possible to have too much of a good thing. I would like to add a few more points that we have learned from LG: 1. Magic-Item-Creation, Leadership, and Polymorph-like-effects, are nightmares of rules... perhaps 30% of all rules discussions for revisions of the LGCS have surrounded these 3 issues. I feel that the most recent LGCS has come up with a fairly good balance of rules for these 3 issues. I don't know how applicable the LGCS's solutions will be to the 4.0 system, but we can probably save a huge headache by carrying over some version of those rules to LFR. 2. Make it easy for new players to enter the game. The life blood of a Living campaign is New Players. There are always the calls for 'rewarding old players' who have stuck with the campaign since 400 BC. These calls should be ignored. Gaming is its own reward. (I should say here, I've been playing D&D, in various forms, for about 16 years). 3. If the RPGA is going to continue to send out Cards, then make sure they use the same rules as LFR! It's amazingly irritating to receive a bunch of cards in the mail only to learn they all use action points and are thus useless for LG. 4. Keep the basic magic item access idea from LG. It is reasonable when making a character to assume that +2 armor will be available, to assume that stat-boost items, 1st level wands, rings of protection etc will be available. 5. Wild Magic is a integral part of RF, however, it doesn't need to be in every, or even one quarter of the mods!
TheBlackFlail 09-07-07, 11:38 AM	Why does everyone want to murder off all of the Realms NPCs? Just because the last time you played in the Realms, you had a DM who had no clue how to properly DM and made every adventure into a Deus Ex Machina story, is not an excuse to murder off all of the setting's NPCs. I don't recall constant movements among the players in LG to murder off Rary, Iuz, etc... because these "cool NPCs" were hogging all the limelight.
mmockus 09-07-07, 11:41 AM	Regardless of whether they will or will not work, it seems few people have any faith in them working, and have no desire to see an attempt at an online tracking system. (Myself included.) IMHO, there's nothing wrong with the good ol' pen and paper method. It works, so why change it? (It's kinda like getting a trophy for making it to the end.) There are a few problems with the pen and paper, it is accounting. I don't want to be an accountant, I want to play. People can't add, proven through many an audit, people can't add and will make mistakes. The bigger issue is the amount of paperwork. Over half my backpack at a convention is with ARs, and my back does not appreciate it. Though I love LG more than Xendrik, my back appreciates the days I have no LG since it is much lighter. I'd personally love to be able to print out 4 or 5 sheets of paper with my favors instead of all those ARs. Also having them online would be an instant backup, so no more fear of lost ARs. (or players "loosing" ARs when they die). I know that past efforts for online character tracking have soured people, but so whatever amount of online tracking they go with, needs to work. Chris has mentioned that the plan is to go online, but they are not married to it, if it doesn't work, they will have a backup to make sure the campaign does not suffer for it. We need to be ready for some bumps in the road, no system is going to be perfect out of the gate, even LG went though some changes, certs, magic mart, etc till the current system. I would expect an attempt to fit the new campaign to things they would like to change, 4e specific differences, etc.
Lord Toast 09-07-07, 12:15 PM	Why does everyone want to murder off all of the Realms NPCs? Just because the last time you played in the Realms, you had a DM who had no clue how to properly DM and made every adventure into a Deus Ex Machina story, is not an excuse to murder off all of the setting's NPCs. I don't recall constant movements among the players in LG to murder off Rary, Iuz, etc... because these "cool NPCs" were hogging all the limelight. I agree there is nothing wrong with their NPC's. I recommend anyone who has trouble with Realms NPC's to check out the Ed Greenwood scrolls over at Candlekeep. And just to let folks know I am a player in the Bandit Kingdoms with old Eyepus.
HassanSabbah 09-07-07, 12:52 PM	They work now. I agree that there were tons of problems with the Xen'drik tracking system in the first three months of the campaign, but the only problems now seem to be from DMs that screw up on their entries. Seems like an overstatement to just declare that they won't work for LR, or any other campaign. There are nine months to develop and debug a track system, which is about eight months more than they used for Xen'drik. One other possible problem for an online tracking system is... What were the play numbers for Xen'drik? What were the play numbers for LG? Could a system that handles Xen'drik be trusted to handle LG, and its play numbers? Would it have to be improved/changed/made more robust/tested before it works? I suspect the play numbers of LFR will equal those of LG within a relatively short time... Thus, Xen'drik system can be thought of a preparation for LFR, should LFR choose to use online tracking. BAris
HassanSabbah 09-07-07, 12:56 PM	Why does everyone want to murder off all of the Realms NPCs? Just because the last time you played in the Realms, you had a DM who had no clue how to properly DM and made every adventure into a Deus Ex Machina story, is not an excuse to murder off all of the setting's NPCs. I don't recall constant movements among the players in LG to murder off Rary, Iuz, etc... because these "cool NPCs" were hogging all the limelight. The Circle, perhaps intentionally, was written in canon so that they would stay off-screen. Tenser and The Circle parted ways, so you saw Tenser a lot. Rary was also out of screen. You could treat him like the king... you only meet his decrees or is minions' minions. Iuz was very much on the screen for me, but I played in the BK until about 2006, so that should be expected. Elminster and Drizz't very much affect the world directly, visibly and constantly in FR. Baris
Beowulfe 09-07-07, 01:14 PM	The biggest draw back to online ARs is that they are not immediate. I purpose as combination of the two. You'd get a paper AR at the game/convention for each adventure. Afterwards when tables are being entered, the information is entered as well so that your character is updated online. Once that is done, you can chunk the paper or keep it if it gives you the warm fuzzy feeling, but you would just have an abreviated list of adventures in your log that you'd print out to show to the DM if there is a question. This provides that "back-up" that many people want in case the table isn't entered correctly. It also provides that instant response for leveling in the middle of a convention. On the subject of ARs, please please please simplify them. As it has been stated, we don't want to do accounting 101 after each game. Here is the reality, if people want to cheat, they will cheat. The only thing the ARs really tracked was when and where you got your items. I could have changed feats, class, race, or skills and it would be very difficult if not impossible to discover that via an AR.
KarmaInferno 09-07-07, 01:25 PM	Er, Elminster has done the world-altering thing a few times, I grant you, but even then it's only on occasion. Seriously, you can count on your fingers the number of times he's been tangled in the big stuff. Most of his exploits only affect the area he's in, and it's a big planet. Drizzt? When has he ever affected anything but the region he's in? Stay out of the dwarf territories and most of the time you'll never run into him at all. Even if you add up every appearance either character has in all the books, adventures, and stories, they still don't amount to more than a couple dozen major incidents over many years. Which is about par for ANY character of their power level, in ANY setting. That's hardly "constantly". That's not even "often". -karma
jhorred 09-07-07, 01:36 PM	There are a few problems with the pen and paper, it is accounting. I don't want to be an accountant, I want to play. People can't add, proven through many an audit, people can't add and will make mistakes. The bigger issue is the amount of paperwork. Over half my backpack at a convention is with ARs, and my back does not appreciate it. Though I love LG more than Xendrik, my back appreciates the days I have no LG since it is much lighter. I'd personally love to be able to print out 4 or 5 sheets of paper with my favors instead of all those ARs. Also having them online would be an instant backup, so no more fear of lost ARs. (or players "loosing" ARs when they die). I know that past efforts for online character tracking have soured people, but so whatever amount of online tracking they go with, needs to work. Chris has mentioned that the plan is to go online, but they are not married to it, if it doesn't work, they will have a backup to make sure the campaign does not suffer for it. We need to be ready for some bumps in the road, no system is going to be perfect out of the gate, even LG went though some changes, certs, magic mart, etc till the current system. I would expect an attempt to fit the new campaign to things they would like to change, 4e specific differences, etc. IMHO, you're already doing 'accounting' when you tally your XP and GP gains from the mod, whether it may be tracked on an AR or the back of your character sheet. So I think the accounting argument is moot. The AR is a way of tracking your math so you or someone else can go back and find math mistakes, and it provides a paper trail to show where you've earned what. (I'll admit to making mistakes that I've gone back and found.) I'll agree that after a while, the ARs can add up in space and weight, though I'll argue that they still don't compare to the number of books required if you use stuff from a variety of sources. 4E will solve the book problem and I'll agree that an online tracking would solved the AR problem, but, in my experience, some GMs are horrible about reporting mods once they've ran them, which is what an online reporting system would rely on. So I think in the very least a combined method should be used. Paper for, at least, temporary tracking and an online summary for convenience.
ankhwearer 09-07-07, 01:54 PM	Could a system that handles Xen'drik be trusted to handle LG, and its play numbers? Currently the RPGA player and DM rewards tracking is done online, that handles BOTH LG and XE...
The_Voice_Of_Reason 09-07-07, 03:57 PM	Why does everyone want to murder off all of the Realms NPCs? Just because the last time you played in the Realms, you had a DM who had no clue how to properly DM and made every adventure into a Deus Ex Machina story, is not an excuse to murder off all of the setting's NPCs. I don't recall constant movements among the players in LG to murder off Rary, Iuz, etc... because these "cool NPCs" were hogging all the limelight. You don't recall it, because there was a specific rule against authors writing them being in LG mods. That rule, or one like it, is exactly what we're arguing for in LFR. What we're arguing against, is NOT Elminster himself, so much as the KIND of module that an NPC of his power-level tends to cause. The kind of module where the player characters are wholly superfluous, or at best mere witnesses of epic battles fought between NPCs with powers beyond mortal comprehension. Any campaign can be infected with these sorts of... and I use the term loosely... "adventures". In LG we refer to them as Box-Text-Heavy, examples include Traitor's Road(Core) and Morning of the Risen Sun(Geoff). However, because so much of the development of FR has been in the form of Novels, and because the protagonists of those novels have become extremely well fleshed out NPCs, FR is especially likely to develop a terminal case of these Box-Text-Heavy modules. This is the mechanism by which it happens: The module author thinks to himself "I enjoyed reading novels about Elminster, therefore the players will equally enjoy having him in a module." What the module author forgets is that: Gaming is about interactivity, whereas Novels are best read alone. Consequently reading about Elminster doing cool stuff is fun, whereas watching exactly the same thing as a PC it in a module, is torture. The desire to kill off the Realm's NPCs is really a desire to avoid that kind of Novel-Like, Box-Text-Heavy, Module with protagonist NPCs and spectator PCs. Personally, I don't care if these NPCs are dead, so long as they don't appear often/at-all, and so long as the plot is never about them personally. Mention them all you want, reference what they can do or plan to do, but leave them in the background.
HassanSabbah 09-07-07, 03:59 PM	Er, Elminster has done the world-altering thing a few times, I grant you, but even then it's only on occasion. Seriously, you can count on your fingers the number of times he's been tangled in the big stuff. Most of his exploits only affect the area he's in, and it's a big planet. Drizzt? When has he ever affected anything but the region he's in? Stay out of the dwarf territories and most of the time you'll never run into him at all. Even if you add up every appearance either character has in all the books, adventures, and stories, they still don't amount to more than a couple dozen major incidents over many years. Which is about par for ANY character of their power level, in ANY setting. That's hardly "constantly". That's not even "often". -karma You're right, I should have used better wording. What I meant was, it affected the worlds of the adventurers constantly and visibly. They would pop up when they fely like, and you would see them easily and often. Elminster is a known meddler and giver of quests, and did so --until recently in the history of the Realms--personally. It's not like subtle meddling from the adventurers' perspective. You would sometimes barely perceive the ropes attached to you in LG. What I wouldn't want to see is the adventurers being the ropes, attached to whatever Elminster wants to manipulate, and the ropes--the adventurers-- are held by Elminster himself. Or any other known/important/beyond 15th level in terms of 3.5E/way too powerful for you NPC. My worry is there are way too many such people in FR; more than a few are bound to be the 'quest-givers'. I would like my PC to some day meet all the luminaries/high levels. But I'd like these occasions to be unique and memorable. I don't want the resident 11th level paladin or the direct emissary of the high harper to interact with my PC routinely before my PC has seen enough of the world and its ways. BAris
Newpaintbrush 09-07-07, 04:34 PM	Its my opinion that these superheros who can't help but make us regular PC heroes feel insignificant and their handling will determine the success of the campaign. Personally I'd like 'm all to stay off screen, but that's probably impossible. Yeah, Elminster GTFO. Lol.
MichaelAhlf 09-07-07, 05:13 PM	There are a few problems with the pen and paper, it is accounting. I don't want to be an accountant, I want to play. People can't add, proven through many an audit, people can't add and will make mistakes. And the answer is quite simple and already provided for in the LGCS: when you find an honest mistake, fix it when you find it. No big deal. We accept that people make mistakes and move on. The bigger issue is the amount of paperwork. Over half my backpack at a convention is with ARs, and my back does not appreciate it. Really? I have 6 characters and 90% of my BOX that I carry is books. I could condense that a bit if I just brought a laptop full of PDF's, but there we go again. As WotC releases more and more books for 4th ed and opens access to them to get LFR players to buy them, the balance will again shift. Though I love LG more than Xendrik, my back appreciates the days I have no LG since it is much lighter. I'd personally love to be able to print out 4 or 5 sheets of paper with my favors instead of all those ARs. Most people I know have collated a "reference sheet" of favors to get to them quickly anyways. Also having them online would be an instant backup, so no more fear of lost ARs. (or players "loosing" ARs when they die). Actually, having them online would be a great way for people's characters to get woefully off the mark if things went unreported or reported in the wrong order somehow. Or, god forbid, Wizards happened to have yet another of their all too frequent database problems. I know that past efforts for online character tracking have soured people, but so whatever amount of online tracking they go with, needs to work. Chris has mentioned that the plan is to go online, but they are not married to it, if it doesn't work, they will have a backup to make sure the campaign does not suffer for it. We need to be ready for some bumps in the road, no system is going to be perfect out of the gate, even LG went though some changes, certs, magic mart, etc till the current system. I would expect an attempt to fit the new campaign to things they would like to change, 4e specific differences, etc. The biggest problems with an online system are as follows: #1 - WotC has proven their complete inability to keep such a system available and reliable. #2 - The problem of what happens if your event/AR does not get reported in a timely fashion, or at all. With the paper, you have the paper with you. Leveling, purchasing, etc happen immediately. With an online AR system? ARGH. #3 - Most conventions I have gone to did NOT have internet access / wireless available in the scope needed to support people constantly having to look things up like that. The bottom line is for me, even if you have 6 characters each of which has 200 sheets of paper for their AR stack (odd considering my level 15 is barely reaching AR 100, and most people I know with level 15's don't exceed 125), that's still not as much weight as carrying the PHB, MM, and DMG let alone the splatbooks. Meanwhile, the "online model" makes a basic assumption (which is simply not a valid assumption) that people have, at all times, internet access with which to access their characters. With paper I can sit down with anyone, check their AR stack, and see if it says what they say it says.
Mommy was an Orc 09-08-07, 07:03 PM	IMHO, there's nothing wrong with the good ol' pen and paper method. It works, so why change it? (It's kinda like getting a trophy for making it to the end.) Lots of reasons... Personalized ARs - how many times have you played an AR where most of the information on the page could be eliminated? Item Access that you didn't get due playing a lower APL, favors that you didn't get, Items Sold when you didn't sell anything, etc...if you were carrying around 2-3 ARs on a page, things would get a lot lighter at conventions. This is also better for DMs - they could look at an AR without gaining as much information about the mod as they do now. There is one mod I played where I got Adventure access to 2 things I didn't want to buy and got 1 favor out of 8 - why do I want to see more than once what I could have gotten at APL 16 if I only played APL 8? Why do I ever need to see it? I didn't gain/lose a level. I didn't sell or buy anything nor did I craft. The entire AR could probably fit on a fifth of a page. Data Entry - simply having everything calculated out for you and put on your AR and character sheet. You buy Boots of Speed on AR#30, it does the calculation automatically. Multiple printing options - haven't you see the character get hit by something awful and play grinds to a halt as everyone looks through their favors to see if they could possibly negate it? How about the ability to print out all your 'oh no' favors on one to two pages with a code for the DM to enter to mark that favor used? I'd like to see that at a convention. Online play - let your online DM check your ARs electronically...
cetiken 09-08-07, 09:39 PM	Why does everyone want to murder off all of the Realms NPCs? Just because the last time you played in the Realms, you had a DM who had no clue how to properly DM and made every adventure into a Deus Ex Machina story, is not an excuse to murder off all of the setting's NPCs. I don't think I actually said that I wanted to kill the NPCs. I was perhaps not perfectly clear and was quoting someone who made me realize the truth in my home game (even if he was slightly more profane). The intent of the comment is that PCs ought to be the superstars who reshape the world (or their local slice of it) in their own image not some guy in a book. Antagonists are great. They're the ones that we fight against to do that, but I really don't want Drizzit and Friends to be playing heroes in the PCs turf. (You not that I frame it from the DM pov, as thats where the majority of my experience outside the RPGA is.
ankhwearer 09-08-07, 09:52 PM	What if it were the player himself that entered sessions played data? He would be able to make any corrections he needed. Wouldn't that fix just about every complaint that has been listed about online tracking? If security might be needed since it is unclear what you earn for your characters on these "AR"s, but it has not been commited that treasure or player options will be granted in the manner you are used to. But if security is needed, wouldn't you just need to put in the DM's RPGA number so that an authentication message is sent to his account? That would be pretty hard to screw up unless you make the mistake yourself (wrong DM number), but again, the player makes all of the corrections. Would this still be a problem for you in online tracking? Also, in rebuttal to "WotC has proven they are unable to maintain an online tracking system." I'll point out (again) that they have also proven their ability to successfully run an online tracking system (DCI tracking for MtG and RPGA reward points being just two). Failing, for the first three months, with one system that now works is hardly proof that it cannot be done.
catsclaw 09-08-07, 11:44 PM	What if it were the player himself that entered sessions played data? He would be able to make any corrections he needed.Actually, I was thinking of a system where every AR item has a small code next to it. Once you play an AR, you can take it back and enter the code for each item your earned. The GM can do the same, and the Triad can as well. The higher ones would override the lower ones. This means you could get the AR and enter it well before the mod gets "officially" reported. After it did, anything the GM specified would override anything you specified, meaning you would either need the GM or the Triad to correct any errors. That seems to protect against player abuse, while at the same time ensuring mistakes can be corrected. It's simple to understand, and not that complicated to program.
The_Jester 09-09-07, 12:34 AM	Online tracking could work very, very well and be implemented nicely with paper ARs. There could be a very elegant system of check-boxes or pull-down menus. GMs, when reporting games, could add their player's information, rewards received and the like, and player's could enter in their gold and xp. It would eliminate bad math and the horror of lost ARs. But it will never happen. The RPGA does not have the money. It does not have the staff. The much more simple character tracker for Xen'drick (non-interactive, few displayed numbers, limited favours) took ages to get working and still causes problems at level bump time. There's not enough manpower to get something like this working.
Mommy was an Orc 09-09-07, 01:19 AM	The RPGA does not have the money. It does not have the staff. The much more simple character tracker for Xen'drick (non-interactive, few displayed numbers, limited favours) took ages to get working and still causes problems at level bump time. There's not enough manpower to get something like this working. D&D Insider is not being run by the RPGA...
Starcloud 09-09-07, 01:40 AM	And there's no way that Atari and Turbine would dedicate any time to supporting the RPGA; game developers are too busy working on DDO, and the contractual issues would be nightmarish. edit: previous posted originally referred to Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Mind Flayer Monk 09-09-07, 04:49 AM	Good thread. 2. Make it easy for new players to enter the game. The life blood of a Living campaign is New Players. There are always the calls for 'rewarding old players' who have stuck with the campaign since 400 BC. These calls should be ignored. Gaming is its own reward. (I should say here, I've been playing D&D, in various forms, for about 16 years). I very much agree with this. Be nice to see more new faces at the game days/conventions etc.
Mommy was an Orc 09-09-07, 10:44 AM	And there's no way that Atari and Turbine would dedicate any time to supporting the RPGA; game developers are too busy working on DDO, and the contractual issues would be nightmarish. D&D Insider isn't supporting the RPGA out of the goodness of its digital heart. It would be that the RPGA would be doing exactly what it has always done - try to encourage gamers to buy into the newest features of D&D. I'd say a large number of D&D players as a whole are in this group: Want to be face to face and bringing a laptop to a table isn't likely. Don't buy Dragon/Dungeon magazine. In their 30s-40s, so getting them to change isn't that likely. Willing to spend significant money on a good D&D experience - go to conventions, etc... In other words, these are people not likely to use D&D Insider unless the features that support the the paper and pencil experience are just so amazing that they have to use them. And if you can convert a significant number of those people, it will be well worth it to WotC. Getting an extra 10K players per year likely represents $1M a year. That's real money. And here's the funny thing about this - it doesn't just have to be usable by the RPGA. If you're DMing a home campaign and you want to tell your home group what special items they have available to them similar to how LG does it, they could use it too... The RPGA just represents a large group of these players which is why they'll do it. And they're already said as much - you'll be able to play LR on D&D Insider which means there has to be some sort of AR delivery system that's more sophistocated than the DM printing out the AR, marking it up, scanning it in, and sending it to everyone. There is a character builder that can track what books you own and allow you to use items from those books. It shouldn't be brain surgery to make it all work. And the fact that they'll get an extra $100 or so per year from every LG player they sign up is what will pay for it.
MatteBlack 09-09-07, 10:54 AM	There are a few problems with the pen and paper, it is accounting. I don't want to be an accountant, I want to play. People can't add, proven through many an audit, people can't add and will make mistakes. The bigger issue is the amount of paperwork. Over half my backpack at a convention is with ARs, and my back does not appreciate it. Though I love LG more than Xendrik, my back appreciates the days I have no LG since it is much lighter. I'd personally love to be able to print out 4 or 5 sheets of paper with my favors instead of all those ARs. Also having them online would be an instant backup, so no more fear of lost ARs. (or players "loosing" ARs when they die). I know that past efforts for online character tracking have soured people, but so whatever amount of online tracking they go with, needs to work. Chris has mentioned that the plan is to go online, but they are not married to it, if it doesn't work, they will have a backup to make sure the campaign does not suffer for it. We need to be ready for some bumps in the road, no system is going to be perfect out of the gate, even LG went though some changes, certs, magic mart, etc till the current system. I would expect an attempt to fit the new campaign to things they would like to change, 4e specific differences, etc. I think the AR system works fine but, a quarterly update condensing the necessary info down to a few sheets would be really great. Lee
smerwin29 09-09-07, 11:24 AM	DDO isn't supporting the RPGA out of the goodness of its digital heart. It would be that the RPGA would be doing exactly what it has always done - try to encourage gamers to buy into the newest features of D&D. I think you two have a disconnect in your communication. One of you is talking about DDO (D&D Online, the multiplayer online game) and the other means D&D Insider, the digital initiative. DDO has practically nothing to do with RPGA. D&D Insider will have tools usable by RPGA players.
Mommy was an Orc 09-09-07, 11:40 AM	I think you two have a disconnect in your communication. One of you is talking about DDO (D&D Online, the multiplayer online game) and the other means D&D Insider, the digital initiative. DDO has practically nothing to do with RPGA. D&D Insider will have tools usable by RPGA players. Sorry, I mean D&D Insider. Stupid Acronyms being too close :)
The_Voice_Of_Reason 09-09-07, 01:15 PM	What if it were the player himself that entered sessions played data? He would be able to make any corrections he needed. Wouldn't that fix just about every complaint that has been listed about online tracking? No, it just partially fixes #2 of the three problems listed by MichaelAhlf: #1 - WotC has proven their complete inability to keep such a system available and reliable. #2 - The problem of what happens if your event/AR does not get reported in a timely fashion, or at all. With the paper, you have the paper with you. Leveling, purchasing, etc happen immediately. With an online AR system? ARGH. #3 - Most conventions I have gone to did NOT have internet access / wireless available in the scope needed to support people constantly having to look things up like that. Although you partially address point #2 with player entry. You also separately discussed point #1: Also, in rebuttal to "WotC has proven they are unable to maintain an online tracking system." I'll point out (again) that they have also proven their ability to successfully run an online tracking system (DCI tracking for MtG and RPGA reward points being just two). I haven't been involved with MtG for years, so I'm not qualified to comment on DCI tracking, but reward point tracking is not remotely analogous to this discussion for two reasons: 1st. Something like reward points tracking system is not centrally important to the campaign. The entire reward points tracking system could go down for days or even weeks at a time and most players wouldn't ever learn about it. Even if it did fail unrecoverably, it is not mission-critical. The unimportance of its role makes it effectively fault tolerant. Conversely, the kind of system that people are talking about, that monitors every favor, item, levels, access, sales, purchases, etc... that would have to be central to the entire campaign... people would gripe if the server was slow for just one day... and we don't want to imagine the kind of screaming that would happen if there were an actual loss of data. Relying upon such a centralized online tracking system makes the campaign extremely vulnerable to a single point of failure for all mission critical functions... It's a structure almost perfectly designed to fail catastrophically. 2nd. The kinds of systems that people are talking about are much more complex than just keeping track of which modules you've played. It is inevitable that such a complex system will have an inexhaustible string of implementation issues: imagine a favor that gives a 10% discount only on magic items of spells with the fire descriptor... Sounds simple right? But, how would you implement that so that the favor's discount is only applied to the correct items? A simple list of all fire items is WAY too long: There's scroll of Flaming Hands, CL1-20, scroll of Flaming Hands Widened, CL1-20, Scroll of Flame-Substituted-Melf's Acid Arrow CL3-20.... with all the metamagic, and CL combinations, just the scroll list is many thousands long. And that's not even counting wands, staffs, and potions! You could program this as some sort of object oriented system, but now we're talking about serious work by full time programmers every time a new splat book gets added to the campaign multiplied by the number of favors in all mods. It we leave all of these quandaries to player entry of data, as you suggest, then we're right back at humans making mistakes, because that what humans do. Except, instead of catching the mistake, explaining it to a human judge who's able to think, and then making corrections with a pencil, you have to try and get a computer that can only behave in preprogrammed ways (that almost certainly did not anticipate your individual situation) to correct your mistake. Now we need full-time customer support instead of, or in addition to full-time programmers. If the system is simple, then it doesn't do the purchase/sale/XP/TU/favor/crafting, tracking, organization, and condensation that people are talking about, and therefore it is not worth the TIME of implementing. If the system is not simple, it needs numerous full-time programmers, data entry clerks, and customer support personnel to build and manage the system (each of whom would need a salary of $25,000-$45,000 a year, plus benefits), and the system is therefore is not worth the COST of implementing. And all of this to save gamers from having to carry less than a 5 kilos (on the outside) of ARs! Lastly, we come to the most important issue that a lot of people arguing for an online system seem to ignore: UNIVERSAL RELIABLE WEB ACCESS CAN NOT BE ASSUMED! I know it's sacrilege to say that with all the web2.0 buzz around, but it is an inescapable, unarguable fact. How many times have you played when power was out? How many times have you played in somebodies house with no wireless reception? How many times have you played at a hotel con where wireless access cost 20$ a day? Any system that requires connectivity, or even the presence of an unconnected computer during play will seriously reduce play opportunities. There are probably some RPGA gamers who don't even own computers, but rely upon their work computers for things they do online. A significantly larger fraction own desktops that they cannot bring to cons. It's easy for people who are heavily into the mobile-connectivity-thing to forget that there is anywhere on the world that isn't connected, but a significant fraction of the US is still not online: http://csdl2.computer.org/comp/proceedings/hicss/2007/2755/00/27550067a.pdf (1) Conclusion: The Living Campaigns are, at there most basic level, a marketing tool for a pen&paper game; so, this will always be the major component of the game. If we want an online tracking system to be inexpensive, and to not exclude players, then it needs to be 100% superfluous to the major pen&paper component of the game, and also be very simplistic... In which case, why bother doing it at all?
Reneshat 09-10-07, 02:54 AM	If the system is simple, then it doesn't do the purchase/sale/XP/TU/favor/crafting, tracking, organization, and condensation that people are talking about, and therefore it is not worth the TIME of implementing. **************************************** ****** Conclusion: The Living Campaigns are, at there most basic level, a marketing tool for a pen&paper game; so, this will always be the major component of the game. If we want an online tracking system to be inexpensive, and to not exclude players, then it needs to be 100% superfluous to the major pen&paper component of the game, and also be very simplistic... In which case, why bother doing it at all? While I agree that it would be nigh impossible to get a system that does all the things that people believe we should have an online system to do, I do think that it should be possible to find some manner in which to do the AR condensing that would be the most useful part of the system. Personally, I have no problem carrying around paper ARs, and would probably still work primarily (if not exclusively) off of the paper ARs even if this system was implemented. The problem I see with the potential system is even beyond not being able to do 1/10 of what people seem to think it should be capable of, you would have to have DMs reporting everything. As we have learned, many DMs are not reliable about internet reporting, so things could easily get lost that way. Human error is still the most likely failure of any system. With the paper ARs, things could be tracked, errors could be found, and they could be fixed. If all of this was going into a computer, we wouldn't be able to track and fix as easily, and we would still have as many human error issues if not more. Add in the complexity of programming for various contingencies and the inherent difficulties of computers, and we are just asking for organizational issues. It slightly seems like I contradicted myself there, but I didn't mean to, it works out well in my head. There are some things we can do, but even those things will have more problems than with the current system. That is what I am trying to say.
RanielK 09-10-07, 08:27 AM	You don't recall it, because there was a specific rule against authors writing them being in LG mods. That rule, or one like it, is exactly what we're arguing for in LFR. What we're arguing against, is NOT Elminster himself, so much as the KIND of module that an NPC of his power-level tends to cause. However, because so much of the development of FR has been in the form of Novels, and because the protagonists of those novels have become extremely well fleshed out NPCs, FR is especially likely to develop a terminal case of these Box-Text-Heavy modules. This is the mechanism by which it happens: The module author thinks to himself "I enjoyed reading novels about Elminster, therefore the players will equally enjoy having him in a module." What the module author forgets is that: Gaming is about interactivity, whereas Novels are best read alone. Consequently reading about Elminster doing cool stuff is fun, whereas watching exactly the same thing as a PC it in a module, is torture. That would seem to be something that will rest on the shoulders of the Regional administrators, specifically the Mod Editor. If a region is producing novels as mods, then it's obvious that region's Editor isn't doing his job. On the same note, one would hope the writers who are recruited for LR are able to write something better than deus-ex-machina endings to their mods. I and others are seeing more of the "OMG!!!!!!!!! Elminster is SOOOOO cheesy!!! He has to die or I"LL NEVER PLAY LR!!!!" line of arguement. This is more critique of the preceived style of the Realms itself and what mods would most likely come out of that style versus your reasoned request that the NPC's not be the main actors in LR mods.
jhorred 09-10-07, 01:54 PM	Lots of reasons... Personalized ARs - how many times have you played an AR where most of the information on the page could be eliminated? Item Access that you didn't get due playing a lower APL, favors that you didn't get, Items Sold when you didn't sell anything, etc...if you were carrying around 2-3 ARs on a page, things would get a lot lighter at conventions. This is also better for DMs - they could look at an AR without gaining as much information about the mod as they do now. There is one mod I played where I got Adventure access to 2 things I didn't want to buy and got 1 favor out of 8 - why do I want to see more than once what I could have gotten at APL 16 if I only played APL 8? Why do I ever need to see it? I didn't gain/lose a level. I didn't sell or buy anything nor did I craft. The entire AR could probably fit on a fifth of a page. Data Entry - simply having everything calculated out for you and put on your AR and character sheet. You buy Boots of Speed on AR#30, it does the calculation automatically. Multiple printing options - haven't you see the character get hit by something awful and play grinds to a halt as everyone looks through their favors to see if they could possibly negate it? How about the ability to print out all your 'oh no' favors on one to two pages with a code for the DM to enter to mark that favor used? I'd like to see that at a convention. Online play - let your online DM check your ARs electronically... The system you describe would be cool, to have as an alternative to a paper based system. I'd probably even use it, but like others have said, not everyone who plays has reliable internet access. So, I don't think it'd be fair to them to use that as the default. I kinda like the suggestions of having codes on the AR to input into the computer to "activate" your AR items. At the same time I think that you'd have to have someone whose primary duty was to input the codes into the system and managing the whole code system. I would be suprised if WotC decided to invest the time and money to develope and maintain a really well done online AR tracking system that would do this. Would the benefit to the campaign be worth the invested resources? Or would they be more benefitially spent on things like reward cards, loot and hotel rooms for GMs at cons, etc?
catsclaw 09-10-07, 01:59 PM	I would be suprised if WotC decided to invest the time and money to develope and maintain a really well done online AR tracking system that would do this. Would the benefit to the campaign be worth the invested resources? Or would they be more benefitially spent on things like reward cards, loot and hotel rooms for GMs at cons, etc?Except that WotC is already investing a lot of money on their D&D Insider program. Done well, you'd have all the access your character had directly linked to their character creation tool. Available feats would show up, items would be linked in, and they'd all print out on your character sheet along with the appropriate rules governing them. I doubt they'd be interested in putting that money into it solely for the RPGA, but if they could leverage it for home campaigns? They need a reason for all those players to subscribe to D&D Insider, after all.
jhorred 09-10-07, 02:06 PM	Except that WotC is already investing a lot of money on their D&D Insider program. Done well, you'd have all the access your character had directly linked to their character creation tool. Available feats would show up, items would be linked in, and they'd all print out on your character sheet along with the appropriate rules governing them. I doubt they'd be interested in putting that money into it solely for the RPGA, but if they could leverage it for home campaigns? They need a reason for all those players to subscribe to D&D Insider, after all. The character creation stuff through the D&DI, I can see. A dedicated "plug-in" for the RPGA I see as much less likely. I think the only way it'd happen, is if it was optional for the campaign and part of the D&DI tool set and you had to pay for it, so WotC would see a return on their investment. But then the campaign players would likely be in an uproar about having to pay to play.
Mommy was an Orc 09-10-07, 07:53 PM	The character creation stuff through the D&DI, I can see. A dedicated "plug-in" for the RPGA I see as much less likely. I think the only way it'd happen, is if it was optional for the campaign and part of the D&DI tool set and you had to pay for it, so WotC would see a return on their investment. But then the campaign players would likely be in an uproar about having to pay to play. I think the way of looking at it is that they'll probably give an easy way for a DM to figure out if people in his game are playing by the rules - the DM can list the legal resources and people can use D&DI to generate their character with the correct gold total and items. All the RPGA would really be doing in that case is accessing that thing with special codes.
jhorred 09-10-07, 08:09 PM	I think the way of looking at it is that they'll probably give an easy way for a DM to figure out if people in his game are playing by the rules - the DM can list the legal resources and people can use D&DI to generate their character with the correct gold total and items. All the RPGA would really be doing in that case is accessing that thing with special codes. From this it seems that you are suggesting that they have a "LFR button" on the character generator to limit the character to what's available in the campaign, much like HeroForge does now. I agree that would be useful and relatively easy for them to do. As far as having codes for the AR items, I think it'd be a bit more complex. Especially if the DM would have to validate each AR entry for the player. The RPGA database would have to be more robust and tie into the D&DI character generator. This part I'm not saying is impossible, but that it's improbable.
Mommy was an Orc 09-10-07, 08:36 PM	As far as having codes for the AR items, I think it'd be a bit more complex. Especially if the DM would have to validate each AR entry for the player. The RPGA database would have to be more robust and tie into the D&DI character generator. This part I'm not saying is impossible, but that it's improbable. It wouldn't have to be that complex. The RPGA wouldn't have to tie into the generator, you'd simply need a way of entering in codes to access specific campaign information that could be entered by any DM running any campaign. As an example, a specific mod might give a favor and access to two magic items. The 1st is A, the 2nd B, the 3rd is C. And so on if there are more than 3 things. You might see a tracking sheet look like this COR1-01 AC DM RPGA# 4-6 players RPGA# So they get access to the favor and the 2nd magic item. If you wanted the 3rd player to access to B, you'd enter in B after their RPGA number.
UMiskatonic 09-11-07, 11:28 PM	While this is a great idea, I'm a skeptic. There are a lot of significant issues in terms of manpower, technology, and equity to work out. And for what? We have a working system. I'm sorry if your bag is heavy, but you'll start out with zero ARs, and you'll have to work your way back up. They make game bags with wheels, too, if it does get out of hand. Honestly, though, I could use what little exercise I can get. I don't think I'm alone either.
Mommy was an Orc 09-12-07, 09:43 AM	While this is a great idea, I'm a skeptic. There are a lot of significant issues in terms of manpower, technology, and equity to work out. Again, D&D Insider is a product we will have to pay for - if the benefits aren't convincing, we won't. There are a lot of issues that couldn't be worked out in the RPGA structure, but when you're talking about a million dollars/year in revenue, they're not impossible to overcome. And for what? We have a working system. I'm sorry if your bag is heavy, but you'll start out with zero ARs, and you'll have to work your way back up. They make game bags with wheels, too, if it does get out of hand. We have a working system for us... They're not worried about attracting us to LR, they're worried about gaining new players for LR and then converting them over to D&D Insider. If they do what I'm talking about, you'll be able to have your heavy bag - you just won't have to have it.
KarmaInferno 09-12-07, 11:05 AM	There's a couple of previews of the D&Di software up on Youtube, if you're of a mind to search around there. Apparently the character generator includes a feature to create a 3D model of your character, customizable to a significant degree right down to the gear, colors, pose and expression. You can then export the model as a miniature to use in the virtual dungeon system. Given the complexity of the software shown in the preview, I suspect it's being developed by an actual software company, rather than "whichever web admin has free time". -karma
Mommy was an Orc 09-12-07, 11:45 AM	Given the complexity of the software shown in the preview, I suspect it's being developed by an actual software company, rather than "whichever web admin has free time". Probably it is a 2nd/3rd tier WoW-type of company - they get a large client base to fund development of their primary product, WotC gets a new revenue stream. Even if it weren't that, I'm sure the various companies and WotC have been holding discussions on how to do it.
Valint 09-12-07, 11:53 AM	There is one mod I played where I got Adventure access to 2 things I didn't want to buy and got 1 favor out of 8 - why do I want to see more than once what I could have gotten at APL 16 if I only played APL 8? Why do I ever need to see it? I didn't gain/lose a level. I didn't sell or buy anything nor did I craft. The entire AR could probably fit on a fifth of a page. Congratulations, you've just reinvented certs...
Tonus 09-12-07, 12:07 PM	Currently the RPGA player and DM rewards tracking is done online, that handles BOTH LG and XE... And currently I'm being credited for two of the 20+ rounds I've played in the last two months. While I don't particularly care about my player reward points being accumulated in a timely manner, if I was relying on online tracking for character xp my level 5 ranger would still be level 1.
Mommy was an Orc 09-12-07, 12:22 PM	Congratulations, you've just reinvented certs... It isn't the same thing. It is leveraging computers to make our lives easier - you get handed an actual AR, a full page one similar to LG at the game. You want to keep a notebook full of printed ARs, you're welcome to do so. Then you enter a code to get yourself a personalized one for your character. You store the information and can access all of it - you want to search your 50 ARs for 'reroll' or 'poison', you ought to be able to do that. And, if you did have a laptop at the table of a game, you could actually search your ARs when you failed a save vs poison in 10 seconds instead of 10 minutes... Finally, as I've mentioned before, this has applications for home games, not just RPGA games - you want to run a home game that's similar to LG, where you're handing out favors and curses every mod, you can do that and not overwhelm your players. This is the kind of tool that helps out both players and DMs.
GeorgeFHarris 09-12-07, 12:43 PM	It isn't the same thing. It is leveraging computers to make our lives easier - you get handed an actual AR, a full page one similar to LG at the game. You want to keep a notebook full of printed ARs, you're welcome to do so. Then you enter a code to get yourself a personalized one for your character. You store the information and can access all of it - you want to search your 50 ARs for 'reroll' or 'poison', you ought to be able to do that. And, if you did have a laptop at the table of a game, you could actually search your ARs when you failed a save vs poison in 10 seconds instead of 10 minutes... Finally, as I've mentioned before, this has applications for home games, not just RPGA games - you want to run a home game that's similar to LG, where you're handing out favors and curses every mod, you can do that and not overwhelm your players. This is the kind of tool that helps out both players and DMs. I think that the last two posts point out that any online system of keeping a PC up-to-date should be based on the Player entering codes from the AR into the system. As opposed to a system where a Sr. GM has to enter 80 or more tables of information, with each table having separate options (How successful they were, or which branch of a module they took), and with each player at that table possibly having separate options (previous favors from an NPC bumping up a favor, or having an affiliation with a meta-org that bumps up the favor). If you think it takes a while for your information to show up now, wait until they make it more complicated for the Sr. GM. That may have been another reason why the 2 year DnD campaigns didn't see much con play, is that organizers saw extra hassle in running and reporting them. And part of the reason why some players never have their points show up is because they have terrible handwriting. I can't count the number of times I've misentered an RPGA number into the system, because I couldn't read one of the numbers they wrote down. Sometimes I just give up, and give them a completely new number to get the table reported. GH
Mommy was an Orc 09-12-07, 01:42 PM	I think that the last two posts point out that any online system of keeping a PC up-to-date should be based on the Player entering codes from the AR into the system. As opposed to a system where a Sr. GM has to enter 80 or more tables of information, with each table having separate options (How successful they were, or which branch of a module they took), and with each player at that table possibly having separate options (previous favors from an NPC bumping up a favor, or having an affiliation with a meta-org that bumps up the favor). It isn't actually any harder than it is now. There are usually going to be 2 main outcomes of any given mod - success or failure - and those will result in relatively consistent ARs. You just need codes for that and they can be literally as simple as using letters such as A or Q to indicate deviation from the expected norm. If your character has previous favors or affiliations - that's in the system already and therefore neither the senior DM or judge at the table need to do anything. Also, the thing is, the player can enter in the information as well - he can take his AR and enter in say 40CJ(APL 4, 0=success, C didn't get a particular favor, J, didn't get an expected item) into the system. He won't know what the Senior DM entered until he does that first. So even if the Senior DM didn't bother to enter in the information for everyone, there's enough of a keep 'em honest kind of thing to prevent cheating - as you won't know if you'll get contradicted by the system. And for the vast majority of play, this won't be a problem.
UMiskatonic 09-12-07, 02:15 PM	It would be nice to be honest about how the ordering and reporting system works. I do try to follow the rules, but I have started the first page of a mod to have players tell me "You know, I think I've played this one." So, one solution has been to order a different mod. Since you have to order events in advance, this means waiting two weeks to do the reporting. That's two weeks of other things to deal with, and when I finally get to it, my memory is a bit rustier than if I could report it right away. It's often 'out of sight, out of mind' as well, and events can lie unreported for weeks. I would report them immediately if I could, but sometimes I can't. Is there ANY good reason we can't order a mod, and play it right there, and report it? Are gamers so organized that the average group is able to plan two weeks out? I know that my 30-some group is not 100%, with careers, wives, children, etc all competing for time.
Mommy was an Orc 09-12-07, 02:43 PM	Is there ANY good reason we can't order a mod, and play it right there, and report it? Are gamers so organized that the average group is able to plan two weeks out? I know that my 30-some group is not 100%, with careers, wives, children, etc all competing for time. That likely means the DM is running the mod ice cold.
UMiskatonic 09-12-07, 03:21 PM	It certainly could mean running a mod cold, which isn't my first choice at all. But it could also mean prepping three mods, and playing one that is different from your original plan, or judging a mod that you judged last week for another group. Don't get me wrong, I like prepping mods. I prefer to overdo it, actually. But I see no reason not to order a mod Monday night, run it Wednesday, and report it immediately.
jhorred 09-12-07, 06:58 PM	It wouldn't have to be that complex. The RPGA wouldn't have to tie into the generator, you'd simply need a way of entering in codes to access specific campaign information that could be entered by any DM running any campaign. As an example, a specific mod might give a favor and access to two magic items. The 1st is A, the 2nd B, the 3rd is C. And so on if there are more than 3 things. You might see a tracking sheet look like this COR1-01 AC DM RPGA# 4-6 players RPGA# So they get access to the favor and the 2nd magic item. If you wanted the 3rd player to access to B, you'd enter in B after their RPGA number. You're missing my point. There would have to be some database somewhere that contains the information that the codes refer to. It'd more than likely be maintained by the RPGA since it contains RPGA only data. With the number of mods out there, that's not a small amount of data entry. (e.g. A= Favor giving you access to X with text explaining how to use it or C=+1 short sword.) As mentioned before, Senior GMs for decent sized cons already have alot of data entry to do for their cons, this would only make it worse. I know a couple of GMs that don't report their last mod until they need to order a new one. Leave it to the players and someone will take advantage of the system to try to get more than what he/she is entitled to. It'd be cool to have a condensed "cliff's Notes" version of our ARs but see there being many obstacles to the system running smoothly.
cetiken 09-12-07, 09:47 PM	That likely means the DM is running the mod ice cold. You act like this isn't the normal state of affairs. If that annoys you I recomend against any Norfolk area game days.
Mommy was an Orc 09-12-07, 10:48 PM	You're missing my point. There would have to be some database somewhere that contains the information that the codes refer to. It'd more than likely be maintained by the RPGA since it contains RPGA only data. With the number of mods out there, that's not a small amount of data entry. (e.g. A= Favor giving you access to X with text explaining how to use it or C=+1 short sword.) Yup. Except it actually is a small amount of data entry. You set likely default states. As an example, let's pretend there is a mod that involves Heironeous vs Vecna. There are a set of events where Heironeous wins. There are a set of events where Vecna wins. Let's say the player go the Heironeous route - odds are they get the Heironeous favors, Vecna curses, and specific items access. You don't have to describe what specifically happened, you need to specify when they deviate from that route. Just as an example: 0: Heironeous Wins 1: Vecna Wins A: Favor of Heironeous B: Curse of Heironeous C: Favor of Vecna D: Curse of Vecna E: Favor of Commoners F: Commoners Spit at You Wherever You Go G, H, I: APL 2 Access K, L, M: APL 4 Access N, O, P: APL 6 Access Q, R, S: APL 8 Access(and so on) So the code might look like: 40L - that means you played APL 4, you got all the expected favors of Heironeous Wins(Favor of Heironeous, Curse of Vecna, Favor of Commoners), but you missed out on one of the APL 4 item accesses.
Starcloud 09-14-07, 12:39 AM	And you do this for every adventure, every AR... because all of this will need to be printed out at some point... Now, how many adventures does the RPGA put out in a year? It's not a small amount, and it'll keep growing. Storage may be cheap, but someone's data entry time isn't.
Mommy was an Orc 09-14-07, 09:37 AM	And you do this for every adventure, every AR... because all of this will need to be printed out at some point... Now, how many adventures does the RPGA put out in a year? It's not a small amount, and it'll keep growing. Storage may be cheap, but someone's data entry time isn't. They already do the data entry...every favor or item access has a special character in front of it. They just don't have a system that could benefit from their data entry.
jhorred 09-14-07, 05:42 PM	They already do the data entry...every favor or item access has a special character in front of it. They just don't have a system that could benefit from their data entry. Maybe there is a database out there with this data already in it that I don't know of. This is how, using my limited database knowledge, I would foresee creating what you are suggesting.... To start, there would have to be fields added to each of the records for all the adventrues to input the Favor Code, the Favor Name and the Favor Text, and Magic Item Code, Magic Item Name and Magic Item Text (if any) and a system for the GM to mark which PC received which favor/magic item. Perhaps the easiest place to do this would to build onto the current ordering database, Adding the fields to the records probably wouldn't take that long, but adding the information into the fields would not be simple task. I'm sure it'd take a considerable amount of time. (Though I'm sure Cutting and Pasting would cut down on this time a fair amount.) So now we have the data, we need to access it. Probably the easiest way to access it would to make plug in for the character software in D&DI. You'd have to add a module accessable by a check box or toggle switch somewhere to turn on RPGA tracking. Then the program would refer to the database built above to import the favor information to add to the character sheet. Easy enough? Perhaps, but this is assuming that everyone plays one character. How do you make sure that the favors get added to the right character? Do you add another field to the RPGA record for the GM to input the PC name as well? What if the name fields that GM enters doesn't match the one in the character software. If you give the players access to the system to correct mistakes, then you are opening the possibility that the less honest people will shift their favors from PC to PC. How do you keep them from being reused if the player can just print out another copy? Do you grant the current GM access to the system to go back and marked the Favor used? (adding another field to the database.) At least with the paper AR system the GM can watch the player mark off the favor with a fair amount of reassurance the player isn't going to be able to do that. (Though I wouldn't be surprised if someone was out there marking their favors off with disappearing ink...) .... I do agree that having a system that worked like this would be really really cool. I think that it'd be fairly complex and far from easy to implement and even harder to regulate used favors.
Starcloud 09-15-07, 12:51 AM	You miss my point. Right now, the AR is a PDF file. It doesn't have a database item attached to it. To make the system you are describing, each part of an AR has to be turned into a database item, and a script written to properly assign the correct bits of the AR to the correct character, and each adventure has to have this done for its AR. All of this requires someone to do a lot of data entry above and beyond just laying it out and attaching it to the adventure as a PDF. You may not see it, but this is a large undertaking in terms of time and money spent, and the RPGA has, what, all of three people as paid staff? Ian Richards, his secretary, and Chris Tulach, IIRC. Everyone else is a volunteer. And again, I have no confidence, based on the demonstrated performance of the RPGA points tracker and character tracker databases, that WotC and the RPGA can get this right.
tombollis 09-15-07, 06:22 AM	You miss my point. Right now, the AR is a PDF file. It doesn't have a database item attached to it. There is no need for the AR reader or printer, nor the results poster, to have acces to the database. It is enough for the editor and AR creatior, the report receiver, and on line character tracking to have links to the database. The AR creator gets details from existing items from the database for inclusion in the AR and the editor adds new items to rhe database. The reporting process stores player/character info in a database that has links to the item database. On line tracking accesses character info from, and stores changes to, a database that links to the item database. Character sheets or other printable output contain info obtained from the database, but the player does not need a link in order to read it. Ton Bollis
Mommy was an Orc 09-15-07, 10:49 AM	You may not see it, but this is a large undertaking in terms of time and money spent, and the RPGA has, what, all of three people as paid staff? Ian Richards, his secretary, and Chris Tulach, IIRC. Everyone else is a volunteer. And again, I have no confidence, based on the demonstrated performance of the RPGA points tracker and character tracker databases, that WotC and the RPGA can get this right. Seriously. I'm not a good programmer by any means, I just occasionally need to write code that tracks things for clients. I'm sure I could do all of this as I've done the basic code already for other reasons. I'm not 100% certain about how I'd save my results outside a PDF, but I'm sure I can take a word file and transform it into a nice looking AR that could then be made into a PDF. Of course, my output would be from Flash, but for a hardcore programmer, this should be child's play do it better. And given what they're doing with being able to generate characters using 4.0 and adding books, they've got those hardcore programmers working on D&DI. And as they want LR people using D&DI, they've got actual monetary incentive to make that happen.
HassanSabbah 09-17-07, 08:05 AM	Seriously. I'm not a good programmer by any means, I just occasionally need to write code that tracks things for clients. I'm sure I could do all of this as I've done the basic code already for other reasons. But can you do it real-time, serving a total of 20K+ users? Peak usages may exceed 500 users online in a given 5 minute interval (say, for example, during GenCon). Do you have reliable and fast methods for correcting errors, both on the RPGA side (faulty script, faulty data entry--after all, not everyone who does that stuff will be a computer expert) and the players' side (crap, instead of reporting that they get the electric +1 sword, I reported that they got the holy avenger +532 which was right after the +1 sword in the choices)? Is there a way to ensure timely data entry on the GM's side? I'm barely computer literate, but it seems to me those are important issues that must be addressed before this can be attempted. BAris
catsclaw 09-17-07, 12:00 PM	But can you do it real-time, serving a total of 20K+ users? Peak usages may exceed 500 users online in a given 5 minute interval (say, for example, during GenCon).That's mostly a matter of hardware, and who says it has to be real-time anyway? I'd assume at conventions you'd rely on paper when going from slot to slot.
HassanSabbah 09-17-07, 01:25 PM	That's mostly a matter of hardware, and who says it has to be real-time anyway? I'd assume at conventions you'd rely on paper when going from slot to slot. You're right about going with paper at big cons. Error correction is still a huge issue that needs to be cleared, IMO. Plus, if RPGA has one way of taking care of things, I doubd they will implement a second one on top of the first one. Funding issues. I'd love to see a redundant functioning computerized online tracker system, but... BAris