LFRWiki [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

LFRWiki [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Puggle Halfwine
01-28-08, 04:46 PM Hey guys,

As discussed on the LivingFR mailing list, I've thrown together a small wiki for the Living Forgotten Realms campaign. It can be found at:http://wikihost.org/wikis/lfrwiki/wiki/start

There's still an embarrassing amount of red text there, but it's recently had a fairly extensive visual makeover which I'm still seeking comment on. Naturally with the campaign not even launched yet everything is still very flexible, but I'm hoping that this will become a valuable resource when Living Forgotten Realms finally launches!

Check it out if you want. :)

Cheers,

Dave.
mmockus
01-31-08, 08:19 PM Since a wiki is one of the gleemax components in development. That would by the best place to host a wiki. But that is just my 2 cents.
Puggle Halfwine
02-01-08, 01:33 AM Perhaps. But there are two obstacles here...

First and foremost is the somewhat over-prevalent delays we're seeing with anything technology related in WotC's hands. From failing to fix a bug which causes RPGA users to lose their module-ordering privilages (after knowing about it and saying they fixed it), to not posting the latest two LG adaptables (which have by all accounts been in the WotC system for almost six months now and simply *need to be posted online before the campaign ends*, something which is looking more and more doubtful) to X and Y and Z. Everyone can find an example. Apologies to all who disagree, but I don't think Gleemax is a technologically sound base to hold a wiki (especially because the nightly downtime, which for Australian users happens right at their prime time 5:00pm->11:00pm, affects me significantly).

The second is Gleemax terms of use. Has anyone actually READ that thing? To put it simply: Anything you put on Gleemax becomes the sole and complete property of WotC, utterly and completely, forever and ever without any rights or obligations whatsoever. Personally, I love writing for a living campaign but I get credit for those works. I don't get paid for writing regionals, but they essentially distributed to their players "at cost". I know that those works aren't just going to be scooped up, piled into the Living Forgotten Realms Gazetteer and sold for a profit without so much as credit for what I've written. Don't get me wrong- if WotC wants to sell a Living Forgotten Realms Gazetteer "at cost", or distribute a PDF version for free (D&D INSIDER IS NOT FREE), or somehow reward anyone who contributed to it, or in other way distribute the content for what they paid for it... I am 100% behind such a motion.

But I'm not writing (for free) to fill a book that WotC (or anyone else) can sell for profit. Now, if WotC were to offer me a commission however... I'm all ears! :)
Madfox11
02-01-08, 04:16 AM Didn't WotC pay for the FR collected time-line which one poster posted on these boards so long ago? I seem to remember reading something to that effect in the intro of the book. Don't be too paranoid ;) Besides, FR stuff is copywright protected, and posting any of its material on an on-line forum should be done with care. Than again, I am not a copywright lawyer or any type of lawyer for that matter (except the occassional D&D rules-lawyer ;))

Pieter Sleijpen,
Global LFR Administrator
who knows that companies have a tendency to print down rules that would never hold up in court (I had some fun with this with Britt at IndyGenCon when we discussed their text about publishing filming material of visitors to the convention).
mmockus
02-01-08, 07:39 AM Perhaps. But there are two obstacles here...

First and foremost is the somewhat over-prevalent delays we're seeing with anything technology related in WotC's hands. From failing to fix a bug which causes RPGA users to lose their module-ordering privilages (after knowing about it and saying they fixed it), to not posting the latest two LG adaptables (which have by all accounts been in the WotC system for almost six months now and simply *need to be posted online before the campaign ends*, something which is looking more and more doubtful) to X and Y and Z. Everyone can find an example. Apologies to all who disagree, but I don't think Gleemax is a technologically sound base to hold a wiki (especially because the nightly downtime, which for Australian users happens right at their prime time 5:00pm->11:00pm, affects me significantly).

The second is Gleemax terms of use. Has anyone actually READ that thing? To put it simply: Anything you put on Gleemax becomes the sole and complete property of WotC, utterly and completely, forever and ever without any rights or obligations whatsoever. Personally, I love writing for a living campaign but I get credit for those works. I don't get paid for writing regionals, but they essentially distributed to their players "at cost". I know that those works aren't just going to be scooped up, piled into the Living Forgotten Realms Gazetteer and sold for a profit without so much as credit for what I've written. Don't get me wrong- if WotC wants to sell a Living Forgotten Realms Gazetteer "at cost", or distribute a PDF version for free (D&D INSIDER IS NOT FREE), or somehow reward anyone who contributed to it, or in other way distribute the content for what they paid for it... I am 100% behind such a motion.

But I'm not writing (for free) to fill a book that WotC (or anyone else) can sell for profit. Now, if WotC were to offer me a commission however... I'm all ears! :)

Regarding any delay in technology, remember we have 7 months before the campaign even starts. So I'm not sure how you can quote a delay for something that isn't even due yet.

This is not an uncommon terms of use, but that aside even, it may be a necessary evil. A wiki regarding LFR is in violation of copyright law without WotC approval. A compendium of information, especially one you quote may have monetary value, goes well beyond any defensible fair use.
Keith53
02-01-08, 08:01 AM Off-topic, but I recall Claire's and my names being credited (as part of a long list of names) when Ed Greenwood wrote the 1998 guide to Ravens Bluff. I think we were previously paid for original material which we wrote for Polyhedron, some other material was probably uncompensated, and none of us AFAIK in the credits were paid for the 1998 work. It all belonged to RPGA/TSR/WotC. But it was cool being acknowledged in one of Ed's works. If you only write for $, then the RPGA is not the best opportunity IMHO. I am happy if they can compensate for my material expenses.

Keith Hoffman
gomeztoo
02-01-08, 08:08 AM I think a LFR-specific Wiki should ideally be hosted by WotC.
I realize that 'what you put up there becomes WotC', but I don't really see what the problem of that is?
WolfStar76
02-01-08, 10:42 AM I think a LFR-specific Wiki should ideally be hosted by WotC.
I realize that 'what you put up there becomes WotC', but I don't really see what the problem of that is?

Whether or not you see a problem depends on how much value you put in your writing.

Like you, I'd personally have no problem pis- throwing away a little time here and there making small edits and entries.

If I were going to dedicate a good chunk of my time to writing up a complete page on whatever region I get assigned to, then making sub-pages for the NPCs of note, etc I still wouldn't mind donating some of my time for the enjoyment of others.

If WotC took all that work made a "Grand History of LFR" and opted to do so without compensating anyone who worked on the wiki, I'd be annoyed at them making a profit off my time and effort. According to the Gleemax terms of service, they'd be in their rights to do so if it's a Gleemax-hosted wiki.

Truthfully, I don't think they *would* - if only because of the large amounts of ill-will this would generate. The point however is that they *could* and we'd have no recourse.

This risk becomes even more intolerable if you're someone who makes a living (in whole or in part) off your skill with a pen (or keyboard nowadays). If Gleemax/WotC owns all the pages you contribute to a wiki, and credits nobody, you can't even really include those works in a portfolio.

Oh, and of course, IANAL, YMMV, batteries not included, etc. (In other words, I could be WAY wrong and off the charts, I'm just another idiot with an opinion). :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Puggle Halfwine 01-28-08, 04:46 PM	Hey guys, As discussed on the LivingFR mailing list, I've thrown together a small wiki for the Living Forgotten Realms campaign. It can be found at:http://wikihost.org/wikis/lfrwiki/wiki/start There's still an embarrassing amount of red text there, but it's recently had a fairly extensive visual makeover which I'm still seeking comment on. Naturally with the campaign not even launched yet everything is still very flexible, but I'm hoping that this will become a valuable resource when Living Forgotten Realms finally launches! Check it out if you want. :) Cheers, Dave.
mmockus 01-31-08, 08:19 PM	Since a wiki is one of the gleemax components in development. That would by the best place to host a wiki. But that is just my 2 cents.
Puggle Halfwine 02-01-08, 01:33 AM	Perhaps. But there are two obstacles here... First and foremost is the somewhat over-prevalent delays we're seeing with anything technology related in WotC's hands. From failing to fix a bug which causes RPGA users to lose their module-ordering privilages (after knowing about it and saying they fixed it), to not posting the latest two LG adaptables (which have by all accounts been in the WotC system for almost six months now and simply need to be posted online before the campaign ends, something which is looking more and more doubtful) to X and Y and Z. Everyone can find an example. Apologies to all who disagree, but I don't think Gleemax is a technologically sound base to hold a wiki (especially because the nightly downtime, which for Australian users happens right at their prime time 5:00pm->11:00pm, affects me significantly). The second is Gleemax terms of use. Has anyone actually READ that thing? To put it simply: Anything you put on Gleemax becomes the sole and complete property of WotC, utterly and completely, forever and ever without any rights or obligations whatsoever. Personally, I love writing for a living campaign but I get credit for those works. I don't get paid for writing regionals, but they essentially distributed to their players "at cost". I know that those works aren't just going to be scooped up, piled into the Living Forgotten Realms Gazetteer and sold for a profit without so much as credit for what I've written. Don't get me wrong- if WotC wants to sell a Living Forgotten Realms Gazetteer "at cost", or distribute a PDF version for free (D&D INSIDER IS NOT FREE), or somehow reward anyone who contributed to it, or in other way distribute the content for what they paid for it... I am 100% behind such a motion. But I'm not writing (for free) to fill a book that WotC (or anyone else) can sell for profit. Now, if WotC were to offer me a commission however... I'm all ears! :)
Madfox11 02-01-08, 04:16 AM	Didn't WotC pay for the FR collected time-line which one poster posted on these boards so long ago? I seem to remember reading something to that effect in the intro of the book. Don't be too paranoid ;) Besides, FR stuff is copywright protected, and posting any of its material on an on-line forum should be done with care. Than again, I am not a copywright lawyer or any type of lawyer for that matter (except the occassional D&D rules-lawyer ;)) Pieter Sleijpen, Global LFR Administrator who knows that companies have a tendency to print down rules that would never hold up in court (I had some fun with this with Britt at IndyGenCon when we discussed their text about publishing filming material of visitors to the convention).
mmockus 02-01-08, 07:39 AM	Perhaps. But there are two obstacles here... First and foremost is the somewhat over-prevalent delays we're seeing with anything technology related in WotC's hands. From failing to fix a bug which causes RPGA users to lose their module-ordering privilages (after knowing about it and saying they fixed it), to not posting the latest two LG adaptables (which have by all accounts been in the WotC system for almost six months now and simply need to be posted online before the campaign ends, something which is looking more and more doubtful) to X and Y and Z. Everyone can find an example. Apologies to all who disagree, but I don't think Gleemax is a technologically sound base to hold a wiki (especially because the nightly downtime, which for Australian users happens right at their prime time 5:00pm->11:00pm, affects me significantly). The second is Gleemax terms of use. Has anyone actually READ that thing? To put it simply: Anything you put on Gleemax becomes the sole and complete property of WotC, utterly and completely, forever and ever without any rights or obligations whatsoever. Personally, I love writing for a living campaign but I get credit for those works. I don't get paid for writing regionals, but they essentially distributed to their players "at cost". I know that those works aren't just going to be scooped up, piled into the Living Forgotten Realms Gazetteer and sold for a profit without so much as credit for what I've written. Don't get me wrong- if WotC wants to sell a Living Forgotten Realms Gazetteer "at cost", or distribute a PDF version for free (D&D INSIDER IS NOT FREE), or somehow reward anyone who contributed to it, or in other way distribute the content for what they paid for it... I am 100% behind such a motion. But I'm not writing (for free) to fill a book that WotC (or anyone else) can sell for profit. Now, if WotC were to offer me a commission however... I'm all ears! :) Regarding any delay in technology, remember we have 7 months before the campaign even starts. So I'm not sure how you can quote a delay for something that isn't even due yet. This is not an uncommon terms of use, but that aside even, it may be a necessary evil. A wiki regarding LFR is in violation of copyright law without WotC approval. A compendium of information, especially one you quote may have monetary value, goes well beyond any defensible fair use.
Keith53 02-01-08, 08:01 AM	Off-topic, but I recall Claire's and my names being credited (as part of a long list of names) when Ed Greenwood wrote the 1998 guide to Ravens Bluff. I think we were previously paid for original material which we wrote for Polyhedron, some other material was probably uncompensated, and none of us AFAIK in the credits were paid for the 1998 work. It all belonged to RPGA/TSR/WotC. But it was cool being acknowledged in one of Ed's works. If you only write for $, then the RPGA is not the best opportunity IMHO. I am happy if they can compensate for my material expenses. Keith Hoffman
gomeztoo 02-01-08, 08:08 AM	I think a LFR-specific Wiki should ideally be hosted by WotC. I realize that 'what you put up there becomes WotC', but I don't really see what the problem of that is?
WolfStar76 02-01-08, 10:42 AM	I think a LFR-specific Wiki should ideally be hosted by WotC. I realize that 'what you put up there becomes WotC', but I don't really see what the problem of that is? Whether or not you see a problem depends on how much value you put in your writing. Like you, I'd personally have no problem pis- throwing away a little time here and there making small edits and entries. If I were going to dedicate a good chunk of my time to writing up a complete page on whatever region I get assigned to, then making sub-pages for the NPCs of note, etc I still wouldn't mind donating some of my time for the enjoyment of others. If WotC took all that work made a "Grand History of LFR" and opted to do so without compensating anyone who worked on the wiki, I'd be annoyed at them making a profit off my time and effort. According to the Gleemax terms of service, they'd be in their rights to do so if it's a Gleemax-hosted wiki. Truthfully, I don't think they would - if only because of the large amounts of ill-will this would generate. The point however is that they could and we'd have no recourse. This risk becomes even more intolerable if you're someone who makes a living (in whole or in part) off your skill with a pen (or keyboard nowadays). If Gleemax/WotC owns all the pages you contribute to a wiki, and credits nobody, you can't even really include those works in a portfolio. Oh, and of course, IANAL, YMMV, batteries not included, etc. (In other words, I could be WAY wrong and off the charts, I'm just another idiot with an opinion). :)