Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Karsus the Mad 04-15-07, 04:40 PM	I've been slowly converting NEoM to 3.5 over the past years and have recently gotten to the creation of enclaves. The following are just my notes, and so are pretty jumbled. The true 10th level Proctiv's move mountain requires three material components (a device that can produce levitation or fly), a crystal ball, and a mythallar. Given LEoF in regards to the Improved Spell Capacity feat being required to cast true 10th+ magic, this effectively retcons the minimum level to cast 10th level spells during the time of Netheril to 21st level. Also, while never detailed, the method of creating a mythallar during Netheril most likely required 10th level magic, as per the minimum level needed noted in it's description. I'll use a 10th level version of my Ioulaum's imbue mythallar epic spell. The creation of an enclave is a two-step process: the creation of the mythallar, and the creation of the floating mass that will serve as the foundation for a flying city. Step 1 Creating a mythallar: calculated as a continuous 10th level effect at caster level 21st. Since the exact details are unknown, I'll leave it as is for now. (Note, will likely increase due to rare and expensive material components, etc.) 10x21x2,000x2(does not use a body slot)=840,000gp Step 2 Making a quasi-magic item with a continous Proctiv's move mountain effect: calculated as a 10th level spell at caster level 21st. Proctiv's move mountain has a duration of 2 weeks if no mythallar is placed in the floating mountaintop, calculate as a two week duration (divide cost in half). 10x21x2,000x2(does not use a body slot)x0.5(duration longer than 24 hours)=420,000gp Note: with the use of the mythallar that was previously crafted, there is no XP cost for this, as the floating plateu is a quasi-magic item, as per LEoF description under Mythallar. immovable rod and crystal ball are added in to the overall cost because they're part of the material components of the 10th level Proctiv's move mountain. immovable rod (material component for PPM): Market price 5,000gp, cost to create 2,500gp 200 XP crystal ball (material component for PPM): Market price 42,000gp, cost to create 21,000gp 1,680 XP rod of excellent magic (material component for Ioulaum's imbue mythallar): Market price 650,000 gp, cost to create 325,000 gp + 26,000 XP. Mythallar (calculated as a continous 10th level spell): Market price 840,000gp, cost to create 420,000gp 33,600 XP Making a continous Proctiv's move mountain item (ala, flying enclave): Market price 420,000gp: cost to create 210,000gp (XP covered by mythallar) So, assuming an archwizard created everything himself from scratch, total cost to create an enclave would be 978,500 gp, with an XP cost of 61,480 (the XP cost of the material components for the PMM spell and IIM spell and mythallar creation) and the minimum level would be 24th, since three Epic feats are required (Improved Spell Capacity, Craft Epic Rod, and Craft Epic Wondrous Item). So, am I missing anything? Price most likely to change as various things come to me. Currently however, it's feasible within the wealth guidelines. Note: this results in just the floating plateu. Construction, buildings, etc, etc are not factored in. Current market price: 1,957,000gp
Ramar Aulinvox 04-15-07, 10:43 PM	Question: the continued proctive's move mountain, what item is that? Is it the entire mountain? If so, then I would increase the cost to cover the area. If it is just one item, you run into the problem of someone using a single antimagic field to drop the whole city. Also, minor in the grand scheme of things, but I thought that the examples for a flying/levitating item were boots of levitation or a ring of flying (a permanent magic item). It seems that the spell might require a permanent magic item instead of a charged/single use item. Just my two cents on that. Nice work so far.
Dielzen 04-15-07, 10:59 PM	Aye, while I'm not up to speed on the math of Epic stuffs completely, it's my understanding that an enclave was a mountain-top, shorn off, and inverted, to create a flat surface. It seems that you'd have to up price considerably due to the weight/size of such an object, but like I said, not big on the epic math so I could be wrong.
Stigger 04-16-07, 03:04 AM	Erm... maybe I'm missing something, but why would the permanent Proctiv's Move Mountain quasi-magical item be necessary when you could just cast the spell and have it be permanent anyway once you get the Mythallar in place? And if you're planning on going the epic spell route, why not just use the version of it in PGtF and add in more mitigating factors to get the cost down?
Karsus the Mad 04-16-07, 07:15 AM	Question: the continued proctive's move mountain, what item is that? Is it the entire mountain? If so, then I would increase the cost to cover the area. If it is just one item, you run into the problem of someone using a single antimagic field to drop the whole city. Enclaves were quasi-magic items that used mythallars to maintain their enchantment. For mechanical simplicity I'm assuming the quasi-enchantment would be the PMM spell itself, which takes the entire mountain/plateu into account in it's area of effect, so an increase to cover the area isn't needed. The anti-magic field is a big problem I noticed that all enclaves would have. In fact, the only method of destroying a mythallar (and thus the enclave) that I can recall is to use a rod of negation in concert with several anti-magic fields. Definitely a big risk to archwizards. I can only assume they'd have proper defenses in place, and even then the mythallar housing was always under high security (if Karsus's enclave details can be assumed to be standard for such things). Even then however, an antimagic field is only 10ft- radius. Mythallars as described in NEoM were 150ft. in diameter, so any antimagic field would only negate a small fraction of the power given off from a mythallar for it's duration. However, antimagic field poses a serious problem since I'm not using the 150ft diameter version, but the one in LEoF. Maybe a warding spell of some sort. Not sure:P The actual spell PMM Proctiv's Move Mountain (Alteration) Level: 10 Field: Variation Range: Sight Components: V, M Duration: Permanent Casting Time: 2 hours Area of Effect: Mountain Saving Throw: None This spell was vital in the construction of enclaves. Without this spell, there was no simple way for severed mountains to be turned over and set afloat above the landscape. When this spell was cast, the archwizard simply viewed the mountain he wanted to affect and the mountain was severed from the earth, leaving a flat mesa behind. The mountain was then turned over so the flat side was up, and the move mountain spell allowed this new structure to levitate. Once this was accomplished, the archwizard could begin constructing a city upon its smooth surface. The material components for this spell were a mythallar (which needed to be placed in the new city within two weeks), a magical device that allowed flying or levitation, and a crystal ball. Also, minor in the grand scheme of things, but I thought that the examples for a flying/levitating item were boots of levitation or a ring of flying (a permanent magic item). It seems that the spell might require a permanent magic item instead of a charged/single use item. Just my two cents on that. Nice work so far. Definitely. I was going with the cheapest item available, also the picture on page 17 of NEoM shows an arcanist casting Proctiv's move mountain (I assume, a mountain top is being sheered off) and she's holding a wand/rod thingy. Requiring a permanent lev/fly item makes much more sense to me tho'. An immovable rod is fitting, since it's permanent, uses levitation as it's prerequisite, and goes with the theme of the piccy. Thanks for pointing that out. Aye, while I'm not up to speed on the math of Epic stuffs completely, it's my understanding that an enclave was a mountain-top, shorn off, and inverted, to create a flat surface. It seems that you'd have to up price considerably due to the weight/size of such an object, but like I said, not big on the epic math so I could be wrong. Using Epic magic yes, but I'm not using Epic Spellcasting. This is for a 3.5 version of Netheril: Empire of Magic, and so I'm using true 10th+ spells (the spell in question, PPM, already takes size and weight of the mountain into account). Which is prolly why it was so much easier to use true 10th+ magic to create enclaves than Epic magic. Erm... maybe I'm missing something, but why would the permanent Proctiv's Move Mountain quasi-magical item be necessary when you could just cast the spell and have it be permanent anyway once you get the Mythallar in place? And if you're planning on going the epic spell route, why not just use the version of it in PGtF and add in more mitigating factors to get the cost down? Good point. I'll try to answer as best as possible. I appologize if I seemed jumbled and incoherent (I just woke up and don't have any cigs). Mythallars can't make spells permanent (tho' a mythal-like effect could be tied to a mythallar; Llefeber's weave mythal). They only negate the need for an XP cost to create magic items. To make a quasi-magic item with a continuous effect function within the range of a mythallar, the item must be made as a continuous effect item (unlimited charges). Creating quasi-magic items use the exact same rules as regular magic items, the only difference is that there is no XP cost and they only function within range of a mythallar. That's exactly what I did. LEoF says that enclaves were quasi-magic items, so I used the item creation rules (negating of XP cost of crafting the PPM "item" when using a mythallar), rather than having it as a permanent spell effect:P However, there's definitely room for alternatives to the proscribed "standardized" method (the one I'm working out) so that an arcanist could achieve the same result (flying city) but via drastically different methods (some better, some worse. Ioulaum for example: he used an 11th level spell and a variant of levitation and reverse gravity in his crafting of his quasi-magic enclave). This makes much more sense to me, and steers closer to Ed's discussion that points out that not all enclaves were mountaintops (for very sensible reasons) and also points out that PMM wouldn't likely be all that available to arcanists (who are a stingy lot when it comes to sharing their personal spells). PMM in the formula above could mean PMM but could just as easily mean PMM-equavalent spell/effect that would need to be researched individually. That would be in-game tho'. For mechanical purposes, I like to keep things as simple as possible. Maybe I should call this lil' project of mine 3.5 revised Netheril: Empire of Magic (the one not written by Slade). I'm also thinking a group of arcanists conceivably creating a real flying enclave (not dependent upon a mythallar) via a ritual-like process. Maybe that's where Myth Iiscar came from. Elven and Netherese expatriates blending their traditions of magic. just thinking outloud. For consideration: material cost of crystal for use in the construction of the mythallar. Possible material components for enchanting: rod of excellent magic (epic rod that provides XP, fits thematically). Also cost of building a city.
Stigger 04-16-07, 08:02 AM	That kinda makes sense I suppose... but I kinda fail to see the point of using a QM-PMM, when the spell should be permanent in the first place presuming you get the mythallar installed in time. That's pretty much specifically stated in both the 2e and 3.5e versions of the spell. From that, I usually interpreted that passage in LEoF to mean that the mountain was the extent of the Mythallars range for powering QM items, kinda like a casing, rather than the mountain itself (and its levitation/motion by extension, since the PMM spell was supposed to cover that as well) being powered by the Mythallar. If that makes much sense. The Rod idea is good too, very thematic, though probably rare since their PMI production supposedly dropped to near zero after the introduction of Mythallars. Probably why so few enclaves actually existed really...
Karsus the Mad 04-16-07, 09:02 AM	That kinda makes sense I suppose... but I kinda fail to see the point of using a QM-PMM, when the spell should be permanent in the first place presuming you get the mythallar installed in time. I definitely see your point. However, if you look at PMM spell, the duration says permanent, but the text says a mythallar has to be installed within 2 weeks. Since the PMM spell was written specifically to show how the Netherese suspended mountains to create enclaves, I think the author simply assumed anyone casting the spell would have a mythallar (it is one of the material components afterall) and never took into consideration that just because someone cast the spell doesn't mean they're going to actually install the mythallar to keep the effect permanent (the spell is also a bloody excellent weapon!). I assume the duration for the non-mythallar sustained dweomer is 2 weeks (as in the spell sustains the mountain for up to 2 weeks by it's own power without mythallar support). This also suggests (to me at least) that the effect is quasi-magical, since it requires a mythallar to be permanent. This makes things difficult since mythallars are stated as powering quasi-magic items, not spells. However, I'm using it as a prerequisite spell in the creation of an enclave, rather than having the creation of an enclave be the result of the spell, going with magic item creation rules. It's the only way I can reconcile the 2e and 3.5 stuff. In 2e NEoM, enclaves weren't quasi-magical (at least they weren't stated as such), but were merely the result of an effect made permanent via the continual empowering of the mythallar. At least that's how I understand (tho' NEoM is anything but clear on specifics of "how to"), and this contradicts the description of mythallars in the same book. They don't even tell you how to create a mythallar... That's pretty much specifically stated in both the 2e and 3.5e versions of the spell. The 3.5 version is a modern Epic version, which doesn't use a mythallar, but instead has the x5 permanent factor applied. An enclave created with that spell wouldn't be a quasi-magic item/effect, but rather non-magical material (dirt, rock, mountain chunks, etc) held together and levitated via the spell (however! I am also working on a formula to incorporate Epic spells as spell requirements for artifact creation for another project). Positive side of that method: no dependence upon mythallars, and is possible in modern Faerun. Negatives: properly calculated the DC is in the millions. A targeted dispel magic could technically be able to bring it down. Tho' that's true of many methods. From that, I usually interpreted that passage in LEoF to mean that the mountain was the extent of the Mythallars range for powering QM items, kinda like a casing, rather than the mountain itself (and its levitation/motion by extension, since the PMM spell was supposed to cover that as well) being powered by the Mythallar. If that makes much sense. I'm talking about the part of the Mythallar description further down from that, where it says "and made the creation of vastly powerful, near-artifact items such as floating mountaintop enclaves feasible." and Ioulaum's method noted on page 95 "After casting a powerful spell to shear off a mountain peak, he fashioned the mountaintop into a quasi-magic item, suspending it point-down in the air, and set a mythallar atop it." And yes, you're making sense, I think. I hope I'm making sense. I'm getting confused:P I will note one thing: the levitation/motion *is* covered by the mythallar, but because mythallars don't make spells permanent (nothing in either 2e or 3.5 descriptions says mythallars power spells. Both item descriptions state that they allow the creation of quasi-magic items. While spells might be able to be supported, it doesn't state this, so it's unknown at best), the effect must be made quasi-magical via being incorporated in a manner in which the mythallar *can* sustain: as a quasi-magic item. I think I'm confused now. Thanks Stigger, you've managed to cofoozle me:embarrass The Rod idea is good too, very thematic, though probably rare since their PMI production supposedly dropped to near zero after the introduction of Mythallars. Probably why so few enclaves actually existed really... Good point. I didn't think of that. Personally, I wouldn't allow quasi-magic items to be used as material components for anything. Everything should have to be the "real deal". I don't think an immovable rod having to be a real magic item makes a difference tho'. It's a low-level item that pretty much any arcanist can craft or afford to buy. I think the largest drawback and reason for the rarity of enclaves is 1: the level requirement. 2: the crafting expense of a mythallar. 3: the crafting expense of turning a mountain into a quasi-magic item (note that only the XP cost is covered, not gold cost:D). Also, given that Ioulaum actually had a business that made and sold mythallars (I think that's rather corny myself...), I wouldn't think it unlikely that many archwizards simply bought their mythallar (increase the overall gold investment in an enclave to an even more staggering rate). 3: the cost of constructing a city. I haven't included that because frankly, I have no bloody clue:D Going by what little building prices I know, I would assume the cost to build a city on it would be several million (not including price drops for selling/renting space out, and other people funding their own construction). Edit: Just realized you're talking about the rod of excellent magic, doi on me! Yes, that would definitely add difficulty. Either forking out some serious cash, or delaying enclave creation even further so you can gain yet another epic feat. Actually, you've given me an idea: In the Creation of Enclaves section, I think it'd be much better listing various methods of creating enclaves, to help show the variety available and the various methods different archwizards enspoused. Also to note the drawbacks in each type. Hmmm...ooohhh...rewrite PMM to be level dependent. Instead of just "a mountain", change it "X amount of material/level" to show the disparity in size, quality, and construction material of various enclaves.
Stigger 04-16-07, 09:19 AM	I see your point about the Mythallar being quasi-magical, but my thoughts on the matter ran towards the Mythallar acting to periodically refresh the enchantments on the PMM spell as the natural weave energies of the Mythallar swept over them to empower the quasi-magical items. Given that nothing specific was reallys stated one way or another, and that the spell says its permanent with the mythallar installed, it seems a pretty reasonable conclusion to reach. Cheaper too... given the preference of quasi-magical over permanently enchanted items, I think a fairly strong case could be made for the Netherese looking for the most 'economical' way of doing things they could. Their abandonment of the elven forms of magic in favor of the relatively 'faster & easier' methods of the Nether Scrolls only reinforces that idea to me.
Karsus the Mad 04-16-07, 09:42 AM	I see your point about the Mythallar being quasi-magical, but my thoughts on the matter ran towards the Mythallar acting to periodically refresh the enchantments on the PMM spell as the natural weave energies of the Mythallar swept over them to empower the quasi-magical items. Given that nothing specific was reallys stated one way or another, and that the spell says its permanent with the mythallar installed, it seems a pretty reasonable conclusion to reach. Cheaper too... given the preference of quasi-magical over permanently enchanted items, I think a fairly strong case could be made for the Netherese looking for the most 'economical' way of doing things they could. Their abandonment of the elven forms of magic in favor of the relatively 'faster & easier' methods of the Nether Scrolls only reinforces that idea to me. Ok, I think we are confusing eachother:) Mythallar's aren't quasi-magical. They're real magic items that allow the creation of quasi-magic items. I agree with the economical part (notice the current price! gods it's horrendous). And I can see your view on the mythallar sustaining the PMM spell, which is exactly as my view has always been up til' LEoF. Rereading the Floating Cities section of NEoM however, it certainly is suggestive of a spell-effect being maintained by a mythallar. NEoM doesn't say anything about Ioulaum crafting the enclave into a quasi-magic item.
Stigger 04-16-07, 10:01 AM	Yeah, I know about the 'real' nature of Mythallars. My point was that if they could power a seemingly unlimited number of quasi-magical items, its not that much of a stretch to say they were refreshing the PMM spell every few weeks as well. They struck me as being the equivalent of the eight nuclear reactors on the USS Enterprise in terms of the power output of magic they were cranking out versus the actual energy needs of the Enclave.
Karsus the Mad 04-16-07, 10:16 AM	Yeah, I know about the 'real' nature of Mythallars. My point was that if they could power a seemingly unlimited number of quasi-magical items, its not that much of a stretch to say they were refreshing the PMM spell every few weeks as well. They struck me as being the equivalent of the eight nuclear reactors on the USS Enterprise in terms of the power output of magic they were cranking out versus the actual energy needs of the Enclave. Actually, you're right. I found this under Monikor To use magic in the city assured death. The city wouldn’t even employ a mythallar with a Trebbe’s Antimagic spell effect to eliminate the threat of arcanists. Also discovered that Lathery's mythallar is still functioning. It was used to teleport (ala, another piece showing mythallar's sustaining magic effects not bound to quasi-magic items) fish to cold chambers. When the Fall happened, it crashed. But when magic came back, the mythallar reactivated and teleported the survivors into the cold chambers. Iv'e just got an idea for a modern Realms game:plotting: Well, I was wrong:embarrass Now, the question: how would one go about setting up a spell effect to a mythallar? Maybe use the same rules for adding new effects to magic items?
MarkusTay63 04-16-07, 01:00 PM	Even then however, an antimagic field is only 10ft- radius. Mythallars as described in NEoM were 150ft. in diameter, so any antimagic field would only negate a small fraction of the power given off from a mythallar for it's duration. However, antimagic field poses a serious problem since I'm not using the 150ft diameter version, but the one in LEoF. Maybe a warding spell of some sort. Not sure. You know, I'm glad you bring this point up. I recently re-read the Netheril stuff, and it ALWAYS confused me about how a person builds a city WITHIN 150' RADIUS! :thinks: I didn't realize their was a newer version in LEoF; is that for the enclave, or the area effect of a Mythallar? I'll have to look for that. I always found that fish-refrigerator thing funny. Some 2e stuff is wierd, but not as rediculous as some 1e stuff. :D The way I pictured the original enclaves working was that the ORIGINAL Mythallar effect would only emmpower QM-items within 150' of the center of the enclave (Where the Mythallar is located), which of course is very ineffecient. Later, they most likely figured out how to expand on the size of the field generated by adding additional Mythallar around the perimeter, allowing for much larger enclaves (more like what we picture when we think 'floating city'). At 150' the original wouldn't have been much more then 'floating villages'. Also, this tandem-Mythallar method is akin to what Stigger mentioned for the Enterprise, the additional Mythallars would provide additional power and be useful as back-ups (something I think anyone floating a mile in the air would want - redundant systems). Also, permanent magic items weren't uncommon, just not nearly as common as the QM ones. They were probably as rare as they are today, given that many wizards traveled from their enclaves, and there were MANY smaller sttlements that didn't have Mythallars (like in the Coldwood). In fact, I don't have the book in front of me but I know it says somewhere that at one point they began producing regular magic items on a regular basis again, I think when they began exploring/expanding into unknown regions. I have a story about an enclave that was VERY different, and hopefully it will wind up in the next CK Compendium... we'll see. It's called the Nautilus Enclave. ;) Any how, great work KtM, this is something I thought about myself but never tried to apply any 'hardf' rules to; Lord knows that Netheril box was lacking in anything 'concrete' as far as magic creation went.
Grimgrag 04-16-07, 01:44 PM	i think u cant bring down enclave whit antimagic field . for the mythallar is more like a artifact. if it was so easy why didnt they destroy the shade city sorry for my bad english i want to say allot more but sux at english
Karsus the Mad 04-16-07, 01:47 PM	I recently re-read the Netheril stuff, and it ALWAYS confused me about how a person builds a city WITHIN 150' RADIUS! :thinks: The crytstal mythallar is 150 ft. diameter (friggin huge), it radiates magic out to a mile. LEoF has mythallars as being crystals the size of a man, sometimes bigger (which I like much much better). I didn't realize their was a newer version in LEoF; is that for the enclave, or the area effect of a Mythallar? I'll have to look for that. Mythallars are detailed in the Artifacts of the Past section of LEoF. I think they did a much better job than NEoM detailing them. I always found that fish-refrigerator thing funny. Some 2e stuff is wierd, but not as rediculous as some 1e stuff. :D Don't forget indoor heating and running water via mini-portals to the planes of fire and water:P Funky really, but makes sense, in a weird way. Also, this tandem-Mythallar method is akin to what Stigger mentioned for the Enterprise, the additional Mythallars would provide additional power and be useful as back-ups (something I think anyone floating a mile in the air would want - redundant systems). Karsus's enclave utilized dual mythallars (I always get the image of two crystals orbiting eachother, pulsing in rythmic opposistion). For my own Netheril in my FR, I had thought of taking the idea of flying cities to an even further extreme: flying continents. The Fall of Netheril would actually have been Ioulaum's orcastrating a 'distraction' so that he could tether and absorb the energies of all the mythallars in the brief instance when magic doubled right before failing, all so he could imbue an advanced mythallar who's area of effect was in the hundreds of miles. Now Ioulaum is ruling over the descendents of select arcanists on an enclave that's the size of Cormyr, cloaked against all manner of divinations, etc. Of course, I dropped the idea. I have a story about an enclave that was VERY different, and hopefully it will wind up in the next CK Compendium... we'll see. It's called the Nautilus Enclave. ;) Underwater enclave? Mind passing the story to me;) Any how, great work KtM, this is something I thought about myself but never tried to apply any 'hardf' rules to; Lord knows that Netheril box was lacking in anything 'concrete' as far as magic creation went. Thanks:) It has been an annoyingly difficult project to make NEoM compatible to 3e (I started about a month after the FRCS came out, and have periodically written down a line here, paragraph there, convert item here, change some wording around so it doesn't sound so god awefully stupid) and to also make the established lore of Netheril not give the feeling a flat, ubercrazed, morally delinguint, rushed craptastic one sided perspective of a crazy mages playground of a civilization. You can imagine how hard it can be with the only decent lore being what little Ed has said, and the alterations in LEoF:D
Stigger 04-16-07, 06:43 PM	Wow, you really are a glutton for punishment... I completely lost all respect for Netheril's "greatness" after I read NEoM.