| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Todesherr09-23-07, 02:01 AM | Tyr, Ilmater and Torm: These gods are sure to survive. The Triad was always tight and Tyr surely would have protected his servant gods, Ilmater and Torm. So 3 LG gods will survive. I have started the list...someone help....complete it... |
| 18DELTA09-23-07, 02:11 AM | Talos should thrive with all the destruction going on. So I add Talos to the list. ;) |
| Todesherr09-23-07, 02:14 AM | Talos should thrive with all the destruction going on. So I add Talos to the list. ;) All greater gods survive, I was thinking of some intermediate and lesser ones... |
| 18DELTA09-23-07, 02:21 AM | All greater gods survive, I was thinking of some intermediate and lesser ones... Well we all know Cyric makes it, oh is he a greater god. I didnt realize that the greater gods made it. Hmm lets see Umberlee FTW. Yeah Umberlee, add her to the list k.;) |
| 18DELTA09-23-07, 02:28 AM | By the way where at in South Korea are you at? Are you military, civilian. I ask cause I was stationed there in 1994 & 1996 US ARMY. 2ND Infantry Division. Camp Casey in 94. Camp Sears 96. Or are you Korean national? I just realized you may not be American. Korea was a very beautiful contry. The land of the morning calm.:) |
| Todesherr09-23-07, 02:39 AM | By the way where at in South Korea are you at? Are you military, civilian. I ask cause I was stationed there in 1994 & 1996 US ARMY. 2ND Infantry Division. Camp Casey in 94. Camp Sears 96. Or are you Korean national? I just realized you may not be American. Korea was a very beautiful contry. The land of the morning calm.:) I am many things but Korean is not one of them. I am a civilian, a teacher of sorts. The Land of Morning Smog is more like it... I'm really depressed about this total revamping of the FR. I mean getting rid of a few gods but annihilating virtually the entire pantheon? What the hell!!!!!!!!! |
| 18DELTA09-23-07, 02:49 AM | I am many things but Korean is not one of them. I am a civilian, a teacher of sorts. The Land of Morning Smog is more like it... I'm really depressed about this total revamping of the FR. I mean getting rid of a few gods but annihilating virtually the entire pantheon? What the hell!!!!!!!!! Cool, yeah the setting is kinda being turned upside down. Its like a feeblemind spell hit WotC. I try to see what I can use and leave the rest. To each his own. Land of the morning smog.:rofl: :bow: |
| Meldread09-23-07, 03:07 AM | Add the following: Sune Shar Cyric (Imprisoned but alive) Lathander (most likely in one incarnation or another) Lolth Bane Selune Gruumsh (Orc King Prelude made mention of him) Eilistraee (in one incarnation or another - likely as the "Masked Lady") Chauntea Kelemvor Oghma Talos Mielikki (because Drizzt worships her) Mask (I would say 50/50 the reason I cast doubt is because of Eilistraees new title somewhat overlaps) Waukeen (deity of trade is important) Jergal (he's seen worse times) Corellon Larethian (most likely will make it) |
| Todesherr09-23-07, 03:17 AM | Add the following: Sune Shar Cyric (Imprisoned but alive) Lathander (most likely in one incarnation or another) Lolth Bane Selune Gruumsh (Orc King Prelude made mention of him) Eilistraee (in one incarnation or another - likely as the "Masked Lady") Chauntea Kelemvor Oghma Talos Mielikki (because Drizzt worships her) Mask (I would say 50/50 the reason I cast doubt is because of Eilistraees new title somewhat overlaps) Waukeen (deity of trade is important) Jergal (he's seen worse times) Corellon Larethian (most likely will make it) They're not going to kill off the heads of the demi-human pantheons, come on!:eek: |
| Zandilar09-23-07, 03:38 AM | Heya, Tyr, Ilmater and Torm: These gods are sure to survive. The Triad was always tight and Tyr surely would have protected his servant gods, Ilmater and Torm. So 3 LG gods will survive. I have started the list...someone help....complete it... Err... Ilmater ends up moving to Brighwater when Tyr kills Helm. (Equally bizarre is the fact that Tymora ends up living in the House of the Triad! :looloo: ) Sune will definitely survive, and with her protection so will Lliira, Waukeen, Siamorphe, Ilmater, and Sharess. Tyr will definitely survive, and with him will Tymora and Torm plus any other deity who dwells in the House of the Triad. The Greater Deities will all survive, along with any deity who happens to dwell on their plane. So any Intermediate, Lesser, or Demideities who have their own planes will probably be gone. (So it's a pruning, not decimation or annihilation.) Of course, I'm just going by what I've read thus far. I have not been able to get myself a copy of AGHotR just yet. |
| Todesherr09-23-07, 03:55 AM | Heya, Err... Ilmater ends up moving to Brighwater when Tyr kills Helm. (Equally bizarre is the fact that Tymora ends up living in the House of the Triad! :looloo: ) Sune will definitely survive, and with her protection so will Lliira, Waukeen, Siamorphe, Ilmater, and Sharess. Tyr will definitely survive, and with him will Tymora and Torm plus any other deity who dwells in the House of the Triad. The Greater Deities will all survive, along with any deity who happens to dwell on their plane. So any Intermediate, Lesser, or Demideities who have their own planes will probably be gone. (So it's a pruning, not decimation or annihilation.) Of course, I'm just going by what I've read thus far. I have not been able to get myself a copy of AGHotR just yet. Well I am glad Torm is still around; he's my favourite good deity. BUT WHY does Ilmater move to Brightwater? Is he angry at Ilmater and WHY does Tyr kill Helm?:confused: |
| Meldread09-23-07, 05:47 AM | WHY does Tyr kill Helm? Cyric, the god of Lies, Murder, Deception, Illusions and Intrigue tricked Tyr into killing Helm over some dispute dealing with Tymora. |
| Todesherr09-23-07, 06:51 AM | Cyric, the god of Lies, Murder, Deception, Illusions and Intrigue tricked Tyr into killing Helm over some dispute dealing with Tymora. Tyr is such an oaf, thick skulled, imperceptive and just plain stupid: a wonder is a rank 18 greater deity with that dumb ass portfolio of his....:rolleyes: |
| MerrikCale09-23-07, 08:12 AM | just as long as shar and selune stick around. I love their war. I also like Shaundakul |
| Meldread09-23-07, 08:24 AM | I really think Selune is going to see a big boost in 4E. With the death of Mystra and possibly other deities it seems inevitable. If they try and trim some fat off the Elven Pantheon I can just envision some Elves embracing Selune. I think the primary conflict will be something like: Shar and Cyric vs Selune and Lathander. The Mistress of the Night and the Dark Sun vs Our Lady of Silver and the Morning Lord. With Cyric imprisoned it gives Selune and Lathander a fighting chance to save the world. |
| Todesherr09-23-07, 08:27 AM | just as long as shar and selune stick around. I love their war. I also like Shaundakul Shaundakul is out; he is barely a noteworthy lesser power... |
| SgtAnjay09-23-07, 12:04 PM | Shaundakul is out; he is barely a noteworthy lesser power... But he has ties to both Selune and Waukeen, and its doubtful either of them are out. |
| Derren S.09-23-07, 04:15 PM | I think you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. If a deity survives doesn't depend on how much protection or how many connections/allies the deity has. A deity will survive if it fits into WotCs new Realms. I oredict that it will be similiar to the Faiths&Pantheons Deity cut. They will give us a vastly reduced deity list but will slowly in various splabooks reintroduce some deities. But I think many monsterous deities will be cut as in 4E there will apparenlty be a greater difference between monsters and normal races and monsters do not need deities. |
| GothicDan09-23-07, 04:17 PM | And then, hopefully, Eric Boyd will sneakily reintroduce those monstrous deities again. |
| Zandilar09-23-07, 06:46 PM | Heya, Well I am glad Torm is still around; he's my favourite good deity. BUT WHY does Ilmater move to Brightwater? Is he angry at Ilmater and WHY does Tyr kill Helm?:confused: Full story: Apparently there's some disagreement in the House of the Triad and Siamorphe moves out to Brightwater, where Sune makes her welcome. Realizing there is now some kind of "imbalance", Sune talks Tymora into an arranged marriage with Tyr. Helm acts as a go between when Tyr starts to court her. At some point in time, Tyr gets suspicious of Helm and his intentions towards his wife-to-be, and this blows up into a full on dispute that culmulates in Tyr slaying Helm. Ilmater, in disgust, leaves the House of the Triad for Brightwater, while Tyr quietly brings Tymora "home" to the House of the Triad. I hate this for a few reasons... 1) Tymora is a rather powerful intermediate deity (my biased view says she's on the verge of Greater status herself), while Siamorphe is a minor demi deity. The exchange is not balanced. 2) Sune arranges a political marriage... Hello? Goddess of LOVE?? 3) Tyr seems to act very rashly and jumps to conclusions, definitely out of character for the God of Justice. On the other hand, Ilmater and Siamorphe moving to Brightwater doesn't really bother me. In fact, I think Siamorphe would fit better there than she did in the House of the Triad (nobles are known for their decadence, after all). |
| dragonheart09-23-07, 07:50 PM | I have no idea who came up with the scenario but they were clearly smoking some very wackedout herb. I have a real problem seeing a death battle occuring over a deific version of John Arden and Miles standish in an arranged marrage arranged by a deity of love. Same for the idea of Cyric and Shar being able to sneak into Dweomerheart and assinate Mystra without being caught. someone was simply not thinking things out clearly. I understand that they had to do something to make way for the 4e version of magic but I can come up with a number of significantly better/less descrutive of the setting ways to do it in about 10 minutes. |
| Arbourean09-24-07, 12:40 AM | I completely agree that the scenario with Tyr, Helm, Ilmater, Tymora, Sune and Siamorphe is completely out of character for all involved, and for the reasons Zandilar stated. As for Cyric and Shar murdering Mystra in Dweomerheart, I'd normally say they couldn't get away with it without detection, but lies, deception, illusions, intrigue and secrets are all within their portfolios. They can pull it off, even if no one else can. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-24-07, 06:09 PM | What's known about the plot developments regarding the FR deities is so crazy already that, with few exceptions, predicting who will live and who won't is impossible. |
| MerrikCale09-24-07, 10:26 PM | I really think Selune is going to see a big boost in 4E. good. hopefully, she'll get paladins or at least some type of holy warrior |
| Green Elven Vampire09-24-07, 11:47 PM | All the Seldarine will survive considering they are present in other multiverses Especially Erevan Ilesere! |
| Derren S.09-25-07, 03:48 AM | I wouldn't be so sure that all elven gods will survive as WotC is doing a big housecleaning. Imo some elven gods too will merge. Again, it doesn't matter what their status in the game world is, if WotC decides they don't need deity X then this deity will be gone, multiverse or not. Now for something different, who here thinks that WotC will pull a "Lord Soth" on Tyr? |
| Todesherr09-25-07, 03:58 AM | I wouldn't be so sure that all elven gods will survive as WotC is doing a big housecleaning. Imo some elven gods too will merge. Again, it doesn't matter what their status in the game world is, if WotC decides they don't need deity X then this deity will be gone, multiverse or not. Now for something different, who here thinks that WotC will pull a "Lord Soth" on Tyr? Es koennte sogar sein, dass alle halbmenschlichen Goetter vernichtet werden und somit der Unterschied zwischen den verschiedenen Pantheonen... |
| RedGlacier09-25-07, 10:29 AM | And then, hopefully, Eric Boyd will sneakily reintroduce those monstrous deities again. Amen to that! The old 2e FR sourcebooks on the gods listed many monstrous deities as allies or foes of the gods. It was so wonderful... But they apparently all went poof! right as 3e started :rolleye2: |
| Zandilar09-25-07, 08:47 PM | Heya, Es koennte sogar sein, dass alle halbmenschlichen Goetter vernichtet werden und somit der Unterschied zwischen den verschiedenen Pantheonen... I don't think they'll go that far. Corellon has already been listed as a "fey" god in the Elven write up for 4e... so he's at least still kicking, if not a little changed. But then again, we always knew Corellon was fey. ;) :P (Babel Fish translation FTW... came up like this, but I assumed halfhuman meant demihuman... "It could even be that all halfhuman Gods are destroyed and thus the difference between the different Pantheonen...") |
| MerrikCale09-25-07, 09:55 PM | Es koennte sogar sein, dass alle halbmenschlichen Goetter vernichtet werden und somit der Unterschied zwischen den verschiedenen Pantheonen... ja? |
| SmartPaladin09-25-07, 10:21 PM | Hoar shall survive to 4.0... You know how many people are gonna be seeking vengeance?! :evillaugh Please? Please? :bigeyes: |
| MerrikCale09-25-07, 10:41 PM | Hoar shall survive to 4.0... You know how many people are gonna be seeking vengeance?! :evillaugh Please? Please? :bigeyes: What would the Realms be without a Hoar after all? |
| Dark Wizard09-25-07, 11:42 PM | What would the Realms be without a Hoar after all? "Unavengeful." |
| AffableDoomwalker09-26-07, 12:56 AM | Tyr is such an oaf, thick skulled, imperceptive and just plain stupid: a wonder is a rank 18 greater deity with that dumb ass portfolio of his....:rolleyes: A winner is you. Seriously. I mean it. I agree. |
| Derren S.09-26-07, 03:17 AM | "It could even be that all halfhuman Gods are destroyed and thus the difference between the different Pantheonen...") Wow, a correct, non-nonsense babelfish translation. I am impressed. |
| Todesherr09-26-07, 03:28 AM | Wow, a correct, non-nonsense babelfish translation. I am impressed. Die Technik schreitet fort, nur wir Menschen hinken hinterher... |
| Zandilar09-26-07, 03:41 AM | Heya, Die Technik schreitet fort, nur wir Menschen hinken hinterher... Indeed. :) Still, Babel Fish a long way from perfect... Maybe one day we'll get perfect translations. :) |
| Todesherr09-26-07, 06:03 AM | Heya, Indeed. :) Still, Babel Fish a long way from perfect... Maybe one day we'll get perfect translations. :) Was ist deine Muttersprache? Kommst Du aus den Staaten? |
| jameadows7709-26-07, 07:27 AM | If Shar and Cyric are sneaking anywhere, where the hell is Mask. He's got at least 5 Chosen. And he missed the biggest sneak of all!! Shouldn't he be somewhere stealing an extra porfolio or so? How is it that they start a good thing with certain gods, then wash them out. How many times has Mystra died. Did we really need just one more? And as for Eilistraee taking Mask spot, then thieves and rogues are out. She may be changing due to her new portfolio but, she is still good at heart. Rogues are neutral. Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gem! |
| MarkusTay6309-26-07, 12:00 PM | My prediction: Io shows up when the two worlds merge and slays Ao. Then he tells the Faerūnian Pantheon to pack their sh_t and get the hell out. :P |
| SmartPaladin09-26-07, 02:17 PM | What would the Realms be without a Hoar after all? "Unavengeful." Boo... Hiss... I am so adding you two to my vengeance list. :pbbbtt: |
| Zandilar09-26-07, 07:18 PM | Heya, Was ist deine Muttersprache? Kommst Du aus den Staaten? I'm Australian, so my native language is English. :) |
| Dimensional_Drifter09-27-07, 04:24 PM | The elemental deities will still exist, and I'd suspect that Silvanus will still be around not only Mielikki who was mentioned already, and with them Eldath and I don't see Shiallia or Gwaeron going anywhere. So I doubt much will happen to the Nature deities. (or at least I hope not) |
| MarkusTay6309-27-07, 04:45 PM | Heya, I'm Australian, so my native language is English. :)Doesn't that mean you speak Australian? :confused: ;) :P Good, so you can get to work on the Osse supplement. make sure you create an entire new magic system based on the 'Dreamtime'. Oh... and I need it by Thursday. :dancin: |
| Zandilar09-27-07, 06:50 PM | Heya, Doesn't that mean you speak Australian? :confused: ;) :P If you want to be particular, I speak the Australian dialect of the English language, specifically that of someone from the state of Victoria with a middle class-upper class upbringing. ;) I even had speech lessons when I was young, so I suspect my accent isn't as thick as it might have otherwise been. (My grandmother didn't like how nasal my speech was becoming, so... elocution lessons for me.) Good, so you can get to work on the Osse supplement. make sure you create an entire new magic system based on the 'Dreamtime'. Oh... and I need it by Thursday. :dancin: Heh... I think I'm a bit late. It's Friday morning. :P Just take all the rainbow spells and all the spells to do with sleep and dreams, and there you go. :) (No, I don't really understand Aboriginal mythology very well, and I mean no offense in this statement.) |
| MarkusTay6309-28-07, 03:26 PM | Considering that most Americans ONLY experience of Australian culture comes from Crocodile Dundee movies, you would still be a far better candidate to do any sourcebooks based on the region. Hmmmm... isn't George K. an Aussie as well? ;) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-28-07, 06:14 PM | Considering that most Americans ONLY experience of Australian culture comes from Crocodile Dundee movies, you would still be a far better candidate to do any sourcebooks based on the region. Who would want yet another real world region copyed and pasted into the Realms, though? |
| Zandilar09-28-07, 08:09 PM | Heya, Considering that most Americans ONLY experience of Australian culture comes from Crocodile Dundee movies, you would still be a far better candidate to do any sourcebooks based on the region. Heh. Crocodile Dundee is not a good example of Aussie culture. Paul Hogan has a lot to answer for. ;) Hmmmm... isn't George K. an Aussie as well? ;) Yes, I believe he is. :) Who would want yet another real world region copyed and pasted into the Realms, though? Well, there's this land called Osse, a continent far to the south, that seems to have some elements that feel/seem rather Aboriginal... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-28-07, 09:06 PM | Well, there's this land called Osse, a continent far to the south, that seems to have some elements that feel/seem rather Aboriginal... I read the book where "Osse" is mentioned (Lady of Poison). There isn't that much information to go on (everything we know is from one exotic character, far from his homeland), and the term "aboriginal" doesn't just refer to native inhabitants of Australia. I think Old Sage once mentioned that the Osse elements in Lady of Poison could refer to a number of polynesian cultures. All that being said, I still stand by my point. I have had a distinct dislike of overly real-worldish regions long before I ever heard of Osse. Creating yet another one is not something I'm in favor of. |
| GothicDan09-28-07, 09:33 PM | Indeed. Though in brainstorming my "Alternate Fantasy Earth" world (including Atlantis, Lemuria, Mu, Thule, and Hyperborea), I've been considering yoinking some Aboriginal/The Dream Time culture and combining it with elements of Shinto, Eastern European Animism, Native American culture, and bits of Celtic, native African, and South American beliefs, in order to create a large, very animistic, spiritual, and mystical religion/culture for one of the above continents. Atlantis would also be drawing from Classical cultures (Greek, Roman, Etruscan, bits of Asia Minor), Lemuria from Egyptian, Middle Eastern (Babylonian, Semite, Iranian) and solar Meso-American religions, etc.; Thule from Norse culture, Finnish, Sami, Inuit, native Siberian... If one's going to use Earth cultures for inspiration, i think one of the best things to do is look at ALL plausible Earth cultures for given geographies/temperatures/climates, and then use them as springboards. :) |
| johnkretzer09-29-07, 02:13 AM | All the Seldarine will survive considering they are present in other multiverses Especially Erevan Ilesere! Sorry to burst your bubble but WotC is changing the base cosomology as well which mean your racial pantheons can't hide behind the " I am present in the multiple multiverse defense". WotC has decided to rip D&D apart for some strange reason...:confused: |
| Zandilar09-29-07, 09:00 PM | Heya, I read the book where "Osse" is mentioned (Lady of Poison). There isn't that much information to go on (everything we know is from one exotic character, far from his homeland), and the term "aboriginal" doesn't just refer to native inhabitants of Australia. I think Old Sage once mentioned that the Osse elements in Lady of Poison could refer to a number of polynesian cultures. Yes, quite probably, and not surprising really. However, you have to agree that the name Osse is quite a bit reminiscent of "Oz" or "Aussie". "Native" Australians* are called Aboriginals. That's what they even call themselves (when they're not using their native tongue to describe what tribe/area they come from - such as the Koori (hopefully got the spelling right there!)). All that being said, I still stand by my point. I have had a distinct dislike of overly real-worldish regions long before I ever heard of Osse. Creating yet another one is not something I'm in favor of. Well, there's something we agree on. ;) * Native Australian is really a misnomer, because the Aboriginal peoples of this country are also immigrants, who just happened to migrate to Australia 40,000 to 80,000 years before us white folks (and subsequently other races) came. |
| GothicDan09-29-07, 09:04 PM | Aren't we all just truly immigants nowadays? ;) |
| SgtAnjay09-29-07, 10:25 PM | We are a fairly restless species.... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-29-07, 11:12 PM | Yes, quite probably, and not surprising really. However, you have to agree that the name Osse is quite a bit reminiscent of "Oz" or "Aussie". Oh, I'm aware of how "Osse" probably comes from "Aussie".:) Kind of funny. I wasn't really arguing with you, either, so much as explaining my position further. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-29-07, 11:13 PM | Aren't we all just truly immigants nowadays? ;) Yes, we are. Humans aren't truly "native" of most places on earth to begin with. |
| Suin Bahhar09-30-07, 07:55 AM | Everybody knows humans on earth are interlopers from the Mulan multidimensional empire. :lecture: |
| dragonheart09-30-07, 10:15 PM | and now back to the topic :P After a little research I think I can name the deities that are dissapearing. We know that Mystra, Savras and helm are dead and that Azuth and Velasharoon are tossed to the far ends of teh astral but who else taking an unexpected trip? since the only clue we have is that only the greater gods have teh sterength to hold their realms together I went looking through faiths and pantheons to see who didn't make their home in a place ruled by a greater god. Guess what the only ones are Selune and Finder! Say good bye to them (and half the feel of the realms with Selune's dissapearance) (and the dissapearance of the only good Netherse city so it can't make its appearance to counter Shade and the appearance of Sakkors as described in GHotR). Ulutiu is already asleep on hte astral so he too is probably taking a long trip and dieing with Auril gaining his portfolios. Gargauth is on the Material plane so its unlikely he will be tossed away - besides he's and evil god and they seem to be keeping them. Everyone else has a home in a domain run by a greater god so unless there give us some more lore it looks like its goodby to Selune and Mystra and their followers and that SHar has finally won her war and the place is falling into evil. Sad - the one thing they seemed to be able to do was keep things hanging on the edge of balance and now this effectively destroys any such balance. For those interested here are the realms and the deities making their homes in each Realm: Deities Barrens of Doom & Despair: Bane (G), Beshaba (I), Loviatar (L), Talona (L), Hoar (D). House of Nature: Chauntea (G), Silvanus (G), Lathandar (G), Ubtao (G), Meilikki (I), Eldath (L), Lurue (D), Nobanion (D), Gwaeron Windstrom (D), Shiallia (D). House of Knowledge: Oghma (G), Gond (I), Denier (L), Milil (L). Arvandor: Correlon (G), Angarradh (G), Eilistraee (L), others Fugue Plane: Kelemvor (G), Jergal (D). SHadow(veil): SHar (G), Mask (L). Brightwater: Sune (G), Lliira (L), Ilmater (L), Siamorphe (D), Sharess (D). House of the Triade: Tyr (G), Tymora (I), Torm (L). Warrior's Rest: Tempus (G), Uthgar (L), Red Knight (D), Valkur (D), Garagos (D). Fury's Heart: Talos (G), Umberlee (I), Auril (L), Malar (L). Elemental Chaos: Kossuth (G), Akadi (G), Grumbar (G), Istishia (G). Gates of the Moon: Selune (I), Finder (D) , (Selunnarra - Netherese city) Dweomorheart (Destroyed): Mystra (G)(Dead), Azuth (L), Velasharoon (D), Savras (D) (Dead). I guess the consequence of not foreseeing and warning Mystra about the assassination is that Savras is destroyed with Mystra. |
| SgtAnjay09-30-07, 10:34 PM | But it states only greater deities can maintain their realms.....planes and realms are two different things. To survive a plane disintegration, the god would apparently have to be in a greater deity's realm. In some cases (the House of Nature, House of Knowledge, etc) this is pretty much same difference. However, in the plane like the Barrens of Doom and Despair.....things would get pretty interesting. Things dont look so hot for Garagos, either. I cant help wonder if Savras was so busy trying to figure out why his divinations couldn't penetrate past the year 1385 that he, you know, never actually took a peek at the year 1385.... That'd at least have a measure of poetic irony. |
| dragonheart10-01-07, 09:31 PM | But it states only greater deities can maintain their realms.....planes and realms are two different things. To survive a plane disintegration, the god would apparently have to be in a greater deity's realm. In some cases (the House of Nature, House of Knowledge, etc) this is pretty much same difference. However, in the plane like the Barrens of Doom and Despair.....things would get pretty interesting. Things dont look so hot for Garagos, either. I cant help wonder if Savras was so busy trying to figure out why his divinations couldn't penetrate past the year 1385 that he, you know, never actually took a peek at the year 1385.... That'd at least have a measure of poetic irony. Actually I would turn that around - planes if anything are more stable than the deific realms so if you can survive essentially unharmed in a deific realm then having a home on an established plane should be a no-brainer for survival. the folks at risk are, as I suggested, those very few who created their own realms before them reached greater status or who did so when greater but have fallen on hard times and are now less able to hold it together - ie Selune and Finder. Of course losing Beshaba (I), Loviatar (L), Talona (L), Hoar (D) is probably not a great loss either so I'm not too concerned about their possible loss. I have to agree that Savras missing this whole things about on a par with the insanities of the entire triad fiasco as well - how the heck does he mange to be that bad at waht is is his one great skill? |
| Meldread10-01-07, 10:27 PM | I have to agree that Savras missing this whole things about on a par with the insanities of the entire triad fiasco as well - how the heck does he mange to be that bad at waht is is his one great skill? I have always laughed about Savras. I mean, for crying out loud, he was trapped in a stick by a mortal. You would have thought he would have SEEN that coming but he didn't. So taking his past history into account I don't find it hard to believe he didn't see this coming either. |
| Dark Wizard10-01-07, 11:12 PM | I have always laughed about Savras. I mean, for crying out loud, he was trapped in a stick by a mortal. You would have thought he would have SEEN that coming but he didn't. So taking his past history into account I don't find it hard to believe he didn't see this coming either. Though keep in mind the person who trapped him was Azuth, no? Someone who was capable enough to become a fairly powerful god himself. Savras is one of those deities who is very hard to write decent stories/myths for. The best way for a writer to do so is probably reverse hindsight into foresight (basically minor retcons) to give him that aura of power and perception. Also have him so reliant on his divinations that his actions seem out of place and time, that furthers his strangeness. He would act like the awakened beings in Dune, forever taking their foresight into account, but forever changing their actions, then adapting to those changes and then seeing what changes depending on their actions to repeat it all again, hoping to control the entire chain of events. It's an endless cycle where cause and effect loop and meld into a complex (meta)relationship that would drive most insane. There is a lot they can do with Savras. If they made him a non-linear being it would really put a lot of depth into the character. Someone who exists in all times but yet in none of them. Savras is one who should have planned contingencies and then contingencies to react to when those contingencies come into effect. |
| johnkretzer10-01-07, 11:13 PM | I have always laughed about Savras. I mean, for crying out loud, he was trapped in a stick by a mortal. You would have thought he would have SEEN that coming but he didn't. So taking his past history into account I don't find it hard to believe he didn't see this coming either. Um...after that big of a botch wouldn't you be a alot more careful? I know I would be. Besides it propable was just as stupid as this, Savras being trapped in a stick by a mortal, and not foreseeing any of this. |
| Meldread10-02-07, 12:33 AM | Though keep in mind the person who trapped him was Azuth, no? Someone who was capable enough to become a fairly powerful god himself. Yes, but at the time Azuth was a mortal. If Azuth could do that to Savras as a mortal, it doesn't take a leap of the imagination to believe that the god of illusions, lies, deception and intrigue aided by the goddess of secrets could pull off something even bigger. Besides, who is to say that Savras didn't see all the possible outcomes and ensured that the best possible outcome happened? Just because we don't see it doesn't mean Savras didn't, because you know - there is still an FR. That means Shar didn't win so something must have went wrong along the way. :P |
| Dark Wizard10-02-07, 01:25 AM | Yes, but at the time Azuth was a mortal. If Azuth could do that to Savras as a mortal, it doesn't take a leap of the imagination to believe that the god of illusions, lies, deception and intrigue aided by the goddess of secrets could pull off something even bigger. Besides, who is to say that Savras didn't see all the possible outcomes and ensured that the best possible outcome happened? Just because we don't see it doesn't mean Savras didn't, because you know - there is still an FR. That means Shar didn't win so something must have went wrong along the way. :P Exactly, hopefully WotC uses the hindsight = foresight for Savras (they did do something and this was the best foreseeable outcome) so this whole god-death thing has an interesting spin on it. I find multiple deicides within just two years far more unbelievable, bloated, and stale than anything that came before. It's a unRSE RSE which resulted in another more massive RSE. They should both belong to the same giant-sized RSE, probably since the ToT. That would cut down some of the bloat. As for Shar ... baby steps, she has time. |
| SgtAnjay10-02-07, 01:31 AM | As far as the planar shakeup and deity-deaths therefrom, its stated that the planes themselves are shaken up and destroyed. Its also stated that only greater deities can hold their realms together. So planes aren't safe but greater realms are. Criticize the logic of it if you want, thats the facts of it. I, by the way, strongly disagree that Beshaba, Loviatar, Talona, or Hoar are throwaways. Each for a variety of different reasons, of course. Not the least of which is I'm a particularly big fan of Hoar. :P As for Azuth, trying to paint him as just some human is pretty drastically understating the matter. He was Chosen of Mystra, bearing her approval, and First Magister of the Realms. Moreover, Savras was a specialist, while Azuth a generalist with a greater mastery of the totality of the Weave, capable of adapting over time in new and unpredictable ways before Savras could see what was coming and adapt himself. The final battle split a mountain and created a lake. We have little to no knowledge of his adventures, but just from that resume I'd say most of the Seven Sisters need a few more levels before they're high enough to start polishing the cover of Azuth's spellbook, let alone open it. Honestly, my pet theory on Savras, which is kinda growing on me, is this: Savras isn't just a god of diviners, his portfolio includes fate and truth. By divining it, he perceives it; by perceiving it, it becomes truth, and thus fate. He can see all the future he wants, but if he changes it then there is no fate and he just made a lie of what he saw. Since both lack of fate and lies are incompatible with his very being, he's a victim of his own divinations, trapped by the very act of seeing things. He may specifically avoid divining things about himself because then he can't act to save himself if what he sees is bad. Which ironically doomed him anyway. Twice. Hoar would have a hell of a good laugh about that one. |
| Bluenose10-02-07, 04:12 AM | As far as the planar shakeup and deity-deaths therefrom, its stated that the planes themselves are shaken up and destroyed. Its also stated that only greater deities can hold their realms together. So planes aren't safe but greater realms are. Criticize the logic of it if you want, thats the facts of it. Having started to wonder about this, I had a look at the planes to see which ones would disappear because there wasn't a greater deity to keep them safe. There's only one, and Selune is one rank short of being a greater deity herself so she's got 10 years to keep the Gates of the Moon intact. |
| LSilvertongue10-02-07, 12:40 PM | Because Selune is a Historical greater diety with understanding of sacrifice better than that of the diety with said portfolio, she isn't likely to go poof. More likely is the fact that she will reaquire what was lost to her, Magic. This would reunite old fueds with an equal playing field, Shar and her shadow weave and Selune and her Magic. The deaths of three dieties of magic may finally have awoken the idea that magic has to be centered or grounded on somthing that just can't "wink" in and out of existance without everything dieing. |
| SgtAnjay10-02-07, 01:57 PM | Having started to wonder about this, I had a look at the planes to see which ones would disappear because there wasn't a greater deity to keep them safe. There's only one, and Selune is one rank short of being a greater deity herself so she's got 10 years to keep the Gates of the Moon intact. Ok, again, a plane and a realm are not the same thing. According to GHotR, planes (plural) are going to go bye bye, regardless of whether there's a greater deity with a realm in them or not. The realms of non-greater deities are being destroyed too. So apparently greater realms can and wil survive the destruction of their planes; of course, its not like deities haven't moved realms around before. |
| 18DELTA10-02-07, 03:06 PM | Having started to wonder about this, I had a look at the planes to see which ones would disappear because there wasn't a greater deity to keep them safe. There's only one, and Selune is one rank short of being a greater deity herself so she's got 10 years to keep the Gates of the Moon intact. Speaking of Selune. What is going to happen to Selunarra, the floating city saved by the grace of the Moon Maiden? Will the Gates of the Moon stay intact?;) |
| dragonheart10-02-07, 09:49 PM | BAsically if WotC doesn't retract some of these changes then we are losing Selune, Finder, Selunnarra and probably Beshaba, Talona and Hoar along with the dwarven, and drow gods already lost and Helm, Mystra, Savras and probably Azuth and Velasharoon. these are the only deities that are eitehr mentioned by name or have homes on a plane or in a realm not protected by at least one greater deity. sadly that seems to be the way they are going. Effectively we are almost certainly going to lose some other deities but they have nt given us enough evidence/info to pick which ones. Personally I'm fairly suree they will use this opportunity to eliminate Geb from the Mulhorandi pantheon since its already been establiushed that he wants to leave. |
| Dimensional_Drifter10-02-07, 10:19 PM | Savras... I find his death more interesting than Mystra or Helm's. I have read what has been posted already, and I can't help but wonder about it. So he couldn't see past the year of his own demise? Could he even see that he was going to die, or do ya'll think that maybe he couldn't see truly his own fate? I thought he knew that Azuth would defeat him, way back then... maybe I'm mistaken. Could he see his own fate? Or is that the only thing he was ever unsure of? One would think that perhaps fate isn't set in stone? Maybe he would have to discern which path of many would become truth? I thought he'd have the ability to see something so obvious, but part of me keeps thinking about the possibility of his powers having flaws. Perhaps he knew what was going to happen and accepted it as fate... do you think Savras was only to know what was to happen, but unable to change fate? He was imprisoned during the time of troubles right? so we don't know if he knew of them right? Kinda off-topic does anyone else keep thinking of the lyrics to Iron Maiden's The Clairvoyant? But seriously, I would like to know what exactly did Savras know, but until then I'd like to see what everyone's theory is on it. Any more ideas? |
| MarkusTay6310-03-07, 12:19 AM | Savras saw it coming... and chose the option that had less disasterous results. You wait and see..... ;) On the lighter side, I heard Chucky Cheese was taking away Micky Mouse's portfolio of Lycanthropic WereRodents. :D |
| Alediran10-03-07, 08:07 AM | Kinda off-topic does anyone else keep thinking of the lyrics to Iron Maiden's The Clairvoyant? Add Dead to the World from Nightwish. |
| Zandilar10-03-07, 09:05 AM | Heya, Savras... I find his death more interesting than Mystra or Helm's. I have read what has been posted already, and I can't help but wonder about it. So he couldn't see past the year of his own demise? <snip> But seriously, I would like to know what exactly did Savras know, but until then I'd like to see what everyone's theory is on it. Any more ideas? Some people would like us to believe that Shar was blocking everyone who would have noticed something was amiss with their portfolio sense. However, I don't think that makes any sense, since pretty much nearly every deity would have their portfolio effected by the death of Lady Magic - Shar couldn't possibly block everyone, could she? |
| Lovite10-03-07, 01:51 PM | Loviatar must survive. She'll do what she has to. She must survive. She'll cozy up to someone big or she'll whip (literally) someone's a$$. She'll figure out a way. She must survive. She must survive. [Deep in the subterranean levels of the asylum he continues hugging his knees to his chest, rocking back and forth in the dark corner, muttering again and again] She must survive... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-03-07, 02:14 PM | Heya, Some people would like us to believe that Shar was blocking everyone who would have noticed something was amiss with their portfolio sense. However, I don't think that makes any sense, since pretty much nearly every deity would have their portfolio effected by the death of Lady Magic - Shar couldn't possibly block everyone, could she? Not to mention that Mystra and her allies would, of course, have been "blocking" Shar as much as possible. People tend to assume Shar blocked everything Mystra threw at her, but Mystra was just a sitting duck and didn't bother to protect herself from one of her worst enemies. |
| Zandilar10-03-07, 07:28 PM | Heya, Not to mention that Mystra and her allies would, of course, have been "blocking" Shar as much as possible. People tend to assume Shar blocked everything Mystra threw at her, but Mystra was just a sitting duck and didn't bother to protect herself from one of her worst enemies. I know... At least that's how it seems right now. Who knows what actually happened... At the moment we know what was in AGHotR, but that is hardly the full story. Still, I can't think of how Mystra could not have been aware she was being "stalked"? Even if Mystra didn't see it, even if none of the deities on Dweomerheart saw it... Other allies of Mystra surely would have warned her - since all of their clergies would be thrown into disarray by the death of the Weave. |
| Dimensional_Drifter10-03-07, 09:32 PM | Yeah, we haven't seen any details yet. When we all get the entire story, there will be solid facts to build upon. Until then we can only talk about what might have happened. I really hope that they come up with a good convincing story to back up all of this. |
| 18DELTA10-04-07, 12:06 AM | Maybe Cyric lied about killing Mystra? What if Shar killed her and its their little secret? He could be taking a fall. I mean he is gaining strenght just from these forums alone.;) |
| Zireael10-04-07, 07:42 AM | I hope the drow pantheon will remain (Lloth, Eilistraee and Ghaunadaur) |
| MerrikCale10-04-07, 09:33 PM | I hope the drow pantheon will remain (Lloth, Eilistraee and Ghaunadaur) that seems unlikely |
| Suin Bahhar10-05-07, 08:34 AM | I'm not so sure about that, Mr Cale. I can only hope they are sane enough to let the nonhuman pantheons remain in some form. They said the gods will now be more distinctively seperated into Demigods and Greater Gods, with the latter housing the former in his or her domain in the astral. So I suspect even a reemerging of Vearaun, Kiriansalee and Selvatarm in the Demonweb Pits of Lolth. If not I WILL make it so... |