Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Miryana 01-30-08, 02:38 PM	Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080130a). Despite its name, the Spellplague was much more than a disease. For one, it did not restrict itself to mere flesh. All things were meat to the Spellplague’s insatiable hunger—flesh, stone, magic, space, and perhaps even the flow of time was suborned. The world of Toril, its lost sibling Abeir, and even the planes themselves were infected with a plague of change. Near-mythical realms that had passed beyond easy reach were pulled back, such as the Feywild (called Faerie in ancient days). The home of demons fell through the cosmology, unleashing swarming evil before the Abyss found its new home beneath the Elemental Chaos. Even the long forgotten world of Toril burned in the plague of spells, despite having been unreachable and cut off from Faerūn for tens of millennia. Portions of Abeir’s landscape were transposed with areas of Toril in the disaster. Such landscapes included their living populations, and thus places such as Akanūl and Tymanther lie as if new-birthed on Faerūn’s face. Across the Trackless Sea, and entire continent of the lost realm reappeared (called Returned Abeir) subsuming the continent of Maztica. Just as magic persists without Mystra, so does the dusky power of shadow endure without Shar acting as an intermediary. Powerful necromancers have developed their own unique methods for accessing the dim energies of the Shadowfell. Where magic was completely loosed, the Spellplague ate through stone and earth as readily as bone and spell. Broad portions of Faerūn’s surface collapsed into the Underdark, partially draining the Sea of Fallen Stars into the Glimmer Sea far below (and leaving behind a continent-sized pit called the Underchasm). The event splintered several of the Old Empires south of the drained sea into a wildscape of towering mesas, bottomless ravines, and cloud-scraping spires (further erasing evidence of the lands and kingdoms once situated there). Historical lands most changed by the Spellplague include Mulhorand, Unther, Chondath, and portions of Aglarond, the Sea of Fallen Stars, and the Shaar. What was once called Halruaa detonated and was destroyed when every inscribed and prepared spell in the nation went off simultaneously. This explosion was partly to blame for destroying the land bridge between Chult and the Shining South—only a scattered archipelago remains. Tendrils of the Change Plague reached many other corners of Faerūn, sometimes directly across the landscape, othertimes bypassing great swathes of land by infecting both sides of the many two-way portals that once dotted the world. Plaguechanged A massive change in body and mind marks a creature that has survived contact with the original wave of the Spellplague during the Year of Blue Fire. Such survivors are called the Plaguechanged. Extreme alterations forge potent monstrosities in even the meekest flesh. Plaguechanged creatures are monsters, driven slightly insane by the viciousness of their metamorphosis. Few of this generation survive today, because the initial plague was so virulent, and the changes wrought were so extreme. What’s more, many decades have passed since the Spellplague’s end, so most plaguechanged creatures simply died in the interim. A few of the horrifying monstrosities remain, though, hidden away in various corners of the world. Spellscarred Spellscars are a phenomena of the present, gained when someone moves too close to a plagueland (where active Spellplague yet lingers), though sometimes spellscars afflict people who’ve never had any contact with rampant magic. Some individuals—heroes and villains alike—can gain spellscars and learn to master the powers inherent in them. Player characters can gain spellscars and learn to master the powers inherent in them. Well, that's a lot of stuff that won't be making its way into my version of the Realms.
Alediran 01-30-08, 02:52 PM	<snip> What a boatload of horse crap. That's so inconsistent with established lore that makes me vomit. Shar has no power to prevent the asencion of a god, AO is the one who decides.
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 02:58 PM	Sounds pretty cool to me. Then again I'm not as **** about 4th edition as alot of you guys seem to be.:P
18DELTA 01-30-08, 03:06 PM	-WOW, why do these article come up before I go to work? DARNIT!!!:mad: -RICHARD BAKER MUST BE STOPPED!!!;) Magical power and fantastic features abound in the Forgotten Realms. Arcane secrets whisper to those with the ears to hear in the eons-long movement of the continents, in rushing river rapids, in every inhalation of beasts great and small, and in the sighing cries of the wind. Raw magic is the wild stuff of creation itself, the mute and mindless will of being, suffusing every bit of matter and coursing within every manifestation of energy throughout the world. Wizards, warlocks, clerics, sorcerers, bards, paladins, and even rogues, fighters, rangers, and other adventurers call upon personally derived threads of magic to cast mighty spells, enforce pacts with enigmatic entities, heal injury, ward against evil, or accomplish physical feats that transcend purely mortal means. Dangerous monsters, too, call up frightful magic to accomplish their deceitful ends. Aberrations spawned by ancient magic seethe below the earth and above it, hungry for flesh and knowledge alike, waiting for the chance to feed. Dragons whose blood runs with magic wield abilities so potent that gods and primordials alike fear to face the most ancient of these mighty beings. Undead fuel their mind and protect their corpses from dissolution by powerful necromantic rituals, especially liches, whose never-ending acquisition of arcane knowledge has propelled more than a few into contention with divine designs. Indeed, magic is so bountiful in Abeir-Toril that even the land bristles with fantastic landscapes. Great motes of free-hanging earth balance on nothing but air, amazing all those who chance upon these mighty demonstrations of nature’s glory. If fact, the Realms are so awash with magic that the world proved particularly vulnerable to a plague that fed on magic itself. The Year of Blue Fire “Learn ye well the lesson of the pebble that begets a landslide. Likewise a single betrayal unleashed the Spellplague, whose consequences yet dance and stagger across Toril, and beyond.” --Elminster of Shadowdale, 1479 DR, Year of the Ageless One An appalling magical event called the Spellplague afflicted (and still afflicts) the world in 1385 DR. Despite its name, the Spellplague was much more than a disease. For one, it did not restrict itself to mere flesh. All things were meat to the Spellplague’s insatiable hunger—flesh, stone, magic, space, and perhaps even the flow of time was suborned. The world of Toril, its lost sibling Abeir, and even the planes themselves were infected with a plague of change. Most suppose the Spellplague was the direct result of the goddess of magic’s murder at the hands of the god Cyric. Some whisper that Mystra’s death was achieved through the machinations of the goddess Shar, with Cyric her unwitting stooge. This theory holds that the world’s magic was held so long in Mystra’s Weave that when the Weave lost its weaver, magic spontaneously and ruinously burst its bonds. Areas of wild magic, already outside the constraints of the Weave, touched off first when their boundaries misted suddenly away. But eventually, few parts of Toril and the planes beyond were unaffected. The plague raged on and on in ever-widening spirals, leaving some places completely untouched (such as many northern lands of Faerūn, including Cormyr and the Swordcoast), and radically altering others (such as Muhorand, Unther, and points south). The plague passed into the realms of demons, gods, and lost souls—dividing some realms, joining others, and generally seeding chaos. Near-mythical realms that had passed beyond easy reach were pulled back, such as the Feywild (called Faerie in ancient days). The home of demons fell through the cosmology, unleashing swarming evil before the Abyss found its new home beneath the Elemental Chaos. Even the long forgotten world of Toril burned in the plague of spells, despite having been unreachable and cut off from Faerūn for tens of millennia. Portions of Abeir’s landscape were transposed with areas of Toril in the disaster. Such landscapes included their living populations, and thus places such as Akanūl and Tymanther lie as if new-birthed on Faerūn’s face. Across the Trackless Sea, and entire continent of the lost realm reappeared (called Returned Abeir) subsuming the continent of Maztica. The Spellplague was a potent direct agent of change, but it also set off a string of secondary catastrophes. Effects on the Weave For eons, the use of magic in Faerūn was focused through a god of magic, most recently Mystra. Except for certain Netherese wizards of ancient days who learned the truth, most believed that no magic would be possible without such a deity. However, with the death of Mystra and jealous Shar suppressing the ascension of a new deity of magic, it became common knowledge that magic is accessible without a god to control and codify it. Now when a spellcaster speaks of the Weave, she is just using another term for magic. Effects on the Shadow Weave Just as Mystra controlled the Weave, the goddess Shar controlled the Shadow Weave. Not satisfied with her portion, Shar plotted to seize control of both. She miscalculated. When Cyric murdered Mystra, the Weave collapsed so completely that Shar not only failed to gather up the fraying threads, she also lost control over the Shadow Weave. Just as magic persists without Mystra, so does the dusky power of shadow endure without Shar acting as an intermediary. Powerful necromancers have developed their own unique methods for accessing the dim energies of the Shadowfell. Effect on Spellcasters Many creatures that learned to cast spells and channel magic with Mystra’s Weave found themselves powerless in the Spellplague’s wake. Some never regained their power. Others worked to attune themselves to the new magical environment. Many required years to regain this facility, while others never regained the knack. Others took shortcuts to reaquire the power they’d lost, swearing questionable pacts to enigmatic beings in return for the ability to utilize arcane powers. Today, spellcasters access magic through a dizzying array of methods. Some murmur spells and incant rituals, some forge arcane bargains, and others pray for intervention. In truth, it seems that magic can be accessed in more ways than ever before, fueled by newfound knowledge of arcane, shadow, primal, and other sources of power. Effect on Items Most magic items that permanently store magic, such as magic swords, cloaks, and boots, survived the Spellplague and continue to operate normally. Permanent access to magic was "installed" in these devices when they were created, so even though the Weave was used in their making, the Weave no longer played any part in their continuing operation. That said, some items that temporarily stored “charges” of magic, such as wands and staffs created prior to the Spellplague, no longer work. If such items do work, they no longer work in the same way. The secret of making magic items in a post-Weave world was relearned decades ago. Magic items are as plentiful as ever, as desperately sought by doughty adventurers, and as mysterious as they ever were. Effects on the Landscape Where magic was completely loosed, the Spellplague ate through stone and earth as readily as bone and spell. Broad portions of Faerūn’s surface collapsed into the Underdark, partially draining the Sea of Fallen Stars into the Glimmer Sea far below (and leaving behind a continent-sized pit called the Underchasm). The event splintered several of the Old Empires south of the drained sea into a wildscape of towering mesas, bottomless ravines, and cloud-scraping spires (further erasing evidence of the lands and kingdoms once situated there). Historical lands most changed by the Spellplague include Mulhorand, Unther, Chondath, and portions of Aglarond, the Sea of Fallen Stars, and the Shaar. What was once called Halruaa detonated and was destroyed when every inscribed and prepared spell in the nation went off simultaneously. This explosion was partly to blame for destroying the land bridge between Chult and the Shining South—only a scattered archipelago remains. Tendrils of the Change Plague reached many other corners of Faerūn, sometimes directly across the landscape, othertimes bypassing great swathes of land by infecting both sides of the many two-way portals that once dotted the world. Pockets of active Spellplague still exist today, most famously in the Changing Land. Referred to as plaguelands, each one is strange and dangerous. No two possess the exact same landscape or features, save for the fact that entering could lead one to be infected by the Spellplague. Luckily, remnant plaguelands possess only a fraction of the vigor demonstrated in the Spellplague’s initial appearance. These lingering Spellplague pockets are secreted away in hard-to-reach locales, often surrounded by twisted no-man’s land. Most of Faerūn and Returned Abeir are entirely free of such pockets, though the plaguechanged and spellscarred may appear in any land. Effects on Creatures When the initial wave of Spellplague infected a creature, object, or spell, the target usually dissolved into so much glowing, dissipating ash. However, sometimes living creatures survived the plague's touch but were altered, twisted, or fused to another creature or even a portion of the landscape. The initial Change Plague wave had no regard for boundaries or species, or the ability of a changed entity to survive with its new form, powers, and limitations. The most unlucky of these mewling, hideously changed survivors perished within a few days. Luckily, the initial wave directly touched relatively few parts of Toril and Abeir. Moreover, not all creatures, objects, or spells touched by the original Spellplague were doomed, but to have survived meant having to accept change. Living creatures so affected are differentiated into two broad groups: plaguechanged and spellscarred. Plaguechanged A massive change in body and mind marks a creature that has survived contact with the original wave of the Spellplague during the Year of Blue Fire. Such survivors are called the Plaguechanged. Extreme alterations forge potent monstrosities in even the meekest flesh. Plaguechanged creatures are monsters, driven slightly insane by the viciousness of their metamorphosis. Few of this generation survive today, because the initial plague was so virulent, and the changes wrought were so extreme. What’s more, many decades have passed since the Spellplague’s end, so most plaguechanged creatures simply died in the interim. A few of the horrifying monstrosities remain, though, hidden away in various corners of the world. Spellscarred Spellscars are a phenomena of the present, gained when someone moves too close to a plagueland (where active Spellplague yet lingers), though sometimes spellscars afflict people who’ve never had any contact with rampant magic. Some individuals—heroes and villains alike—can gain spellscars and learn to master the powers inherent in them. Player characters can gain spellscars and learn to master the powers inherent in them. On rare occasions, a spellscar appears as a physical abnormality, but more often it is an intangible mark that only appears when its owner calls upon it. When this happens, a spellscar might appear as jagged cracks of blue fire racing out across a spellscarred’s forearms hands, a corona of blue flame igniting the creature’s hair, a flaming blue glyph on the creature’s forehead, or perhaps even wings of cobalt flame. In many instances, an individual's sudden manifestation of blue fire is a reliable indicator of a spellscar. Magic in the Year of The Ageless One The ancient wonder of old magic yet lingers among the ruins of thousand-year-old empires, in crumbling towers of mad wizards, and in buried vaults of elder races. The modern marvels of living wizards, sorcerers, warlocks, clerics, druids, and other spellcasters stride the land as purposefully as they ever did, altering the world in small or large ways with each spell they cast. Indeed, without the divine restrictions of previous ages, magic is more abundant than ever, manifesting not only as inexplicable changes to the landscape, items, and creatures, but even in some of the most fantastic exploits of fighters, rouges, rangers, and other heroes. Magic truly does permeate all things. For all the changes wrought by the Mystra’s death, magic remains the lifeblood of Toril. About the Author A former officer in the US Navy, Rich Baker has been a game designer since 1991. He has written or contributed to more than 70 game products, including 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons and Axis & Allies Miniatures. He is also the author of eight Forgotten Realms novels, including the New York Times bestseller Condemnation. Rich married his college sweetheart, Kim, in 1991; they have two daughters, Alex and Hannah. Rich’s interests include Golden Age SF, military history, hiking in the Cascades, wargaming, and the Philadelphia Phillies. 18DELTA:P
Lord Karsus 01-30-08, 03:09 PM	- :: Sigh :: :nonono:
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 03:10 PM	I'm starting to think you guys won't be happy no matter what they do to the Realms. Infact if it were left up to alot of you the world would never evolve at all from 1st edition. You're afraid of change that much is true.
Alediran 01-30-08, 03:12 PM	Not at all, change is good if it's consistent (and nothing about 4th edition is consistent). Shar blocking the ascension of another god is completely inconsistent. THAT'S AO's DECISION, no god except for him can decide who is a god and who isn't, Shar has no power to stop that.
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 03:13 PM	Not at all, change is good if it's consistent. Shar blocking the ascension of anothe god is completely inconsistent. THAT'S AO's DECISION, no god except for him can decide who is a god and who isn't, Shar has no power to stop that. Yeah that part I thought was stupid because of the reason you just gave. Unless Ao is dead now or something.
Alediran 01-30-08, 03:19 PM	It's not the only part, the weave is only an interface, it has no power per se. It's like Linux's graphic interface, you can run Linux in text mode (weaveless) but it's harder. That's why the Spellplague is the worst offender in the department of inconsistencies.
buzzard 01-30-08, 03:19 PM	Not at all, change is good if it's consistent (and nothing about 4th edition is consistent). Shar blocking the ascension of another god is completely inconsistent. THAT'S AO's DECISION, no god except for him can decide who is a god and who isn't, Shar has no power to stop that. You have reading comprehension problems, you take things too literally. When it says that Shar blocks the ascension of another god it's in reference to the fact that she found a way to destroy the Weave portfolio, hence the fact that no mortal is able to assume the mantle of Mystra, not that Shar directly said, "well I don't want you "X" unnamed mortal as a new god of magic so I won't allow you to ascend because I have über overgod powers". But well, those who loathed Shar's victory can be somewhat happy too. I do love how they justify some the new aberrations that will have place in 4th edition.
Suin Bahhar 01-30-08, 03:21 PM	I actually really like it. This smooths out some continuity problems for the planes and opens up the way for a intuitive and flexible magic system. I'm glad for "normal" characters harnessing magic if they want. I like the spellscars. Nice touch. I am appaled with how Halrua met its end. And Mulhorand is eaten by changelands. Hmprf. And the way most wizards characters end... Ouch... Desintegrated into dust. So the possibilty exists of a favourite NPC like a chosen to become a... Plague Changed Mongrel. :eek:
Alediran 01-30-08, 03:26 PM	You have reading comprehension problems, you take things too literally. When it says that Shar blocks the ascension of another god it's in reference to the fact that she found a way to destroy the Weave portfolio, hence the fact that no mortal is able to assume the mantle of Mystra, not that Shar directly said, "well I don't want you "X" unnamed mortal as a new god of magic so I won't allow you to ascend because I have über overgod powers". But well, those who loathed Shar's victory can be somewhat happy too. Portfolios existance are also the pureview of AO, Shar can't destroy portfolios either. And the Weave portfolio is different from the Magic and Spells portfolio, it's perfectly possible that another Mystra could ascend as godess of magic and spells even with the weave destroyed.
buzzard 01-30-08, 03:32 PM	Portfolios existance are also the pureview of AO, Shar can't destroy portfolios either. And the Weave portfolio is different from the Magic and Spells portfolio, it's perfectly possible that another Mystra could ascend as godess of magic and spells even with the weave destroyed. Actually there's no information stating that there's no possibility of destroying a portfolio nor do we know if Ao prohibits such a thing to happen, considering that this is the very first example of such a thing happening I'd say it is possible. Before we knew that when a deity died someone would take up that deity's portfolios but it was never explicitly stated that it was impossible to destroy those portfolios, this new case may have been possible in the past but probably nobody knew how to do it, that's until now, when Shar has discovered the secret.
Miryana 01-30-08, 03:33 PM	I'm starting to think you guys won't be happy no matter what they do to the Realms. Infact if it were left up to alot of you the world would never evolve at all from 1st edition. You're afraid of change that much is true. I'm not opposed to a gradual process of change. I'm not asking for the Realms to remain stagnant, but I do feel that they do not need the majority of the 4E changes I've heard about. The Spellplague is, IMO, the biggest RSE in the playable Realms (not counting stuff in the ancient past like Netheril). I don't think it's quite fair to call it fear of change - in my case, I love the setting and I don't see the Spellplague as positive change and growth. It's more like the Realms are being drastically rewritten in order to fit the demands of 4E mythology (a significant departure from earlier editions) and those people who'll loudly proclaim that they hate the Realms (Mystra, NPCs the poor DM is forced to use because they can't possibly have other things to do, etc) and won't play in it unless it's revamped. In terms of change, 4E is like a meteor hitting the Earth and wiping out the dinosaurs, leaving mammals in charge. Good for the mammals, but since I found the dinosaurs more than interesting enough, I'm not switching my T-rex wallpaper for a rodent background the way some of the ruder members of the new mammal fanclub are insisting all sensible people would do.
Alediran 01-30-08, 03:37 PM	Actually there's no information stating that there's no possibility of destroying a portfolio nor do we know if Ao prohibits such a thing to happen, considering that this is the very first example of such a thing happening I'd say it is possible. Before we knew that when a deity died someone would take up that deity's portfolios but it was never explicitly stated that it was impossible to destroy those portfoios, this new case may have been possible in the past but probably nobody knew how to do it, that's until now, when Shar has discovered the secret. Destruction is a form of change. Therefore, thanks to Finder, we know that only AO can approve the change of a portfolio. Finder asked to change Corruption (one form of change) for Evolution of Art (another form of change). Knowing that AO needs to aprove the change of portfolios then we can infer that only AO can destroy a portfolio.
buzzard 01-30-08, 03:43 PM	Destruction is a form of change. Therefore, thanks to Finder, we know that only AO can approve the change of a portfolio. Finder asked to change Corruption (one form of change) for Evolution of Art (another form of change). Knowing that AO needs to aprove the change of portfolios then we can infer that only AO can destroy a portfolio. Did Ao change the portfolio personally or did Finder change the portfolio while receiving Ao's "blessing"?. I'll word this in a different manner, keyword being "approval". What if Ao approved the destruction of the Weave portfolio when Cyric gave the final blow to Mystra? Maybe he's tired of having Mystra die time after time. PS: AO needs to aprove the change of portfolios then we can infer that only AO can destroy a portfolio. That is a logical fallacy. To have approval from someone does not mean that only that someone is able to do something (e.g.: Ao did not approve the theft of the tablets of fate yet it happened anyways). You should have worded it like this: Only Ao has the ability to change portfolios, thus we can infer that only Ao can destroy a portfolio.
Alediran 01-30-08, 03:46 PM	Ao doesn't tires, he approved of Midnight being the new goddess of magic. Hell AO shouldn't even approved of her destruction since it messed that badly with his balance. With the existance of the Shadow Weave then AO didn't even needed a reason to force Mystra II for becoming neutral since an alternative way for evil existed. AO forces a Status Quo situation, and that's what developers should also do, drastic changes are against how the realms work. And yes, AO approved the change of the corruption portfolio.
buzzard 01-30-08, 03:50 PM	Ao doesn't tires, I'm not talking about physical exhaustion, I'm talking about the fact that every time Mystra dies, something terrible happens in Faerūn, he could be tired of that happening and thus he allowed the portfolios of the deity of magic to cease to exist now that Cyric managed to kill another incarnation of the godess. Plus you don't know Ao's psyche (only WotC knows that, when developing/thinking what the character is going to do next) so you can't conclude what Ao would or wouldn't do. he approved of Midnight being the new goddess of magic. Hell AO shouldn't even approved of her destruction since it messed that badly with his balance. With the existance of the Shadow Weave then AO didn't even needed a reason to force Mystra II for becoming neutral since an alternative way for evil existed. Point rendered moot by what I said above. And the Shadow Weave can be accessed by characters with any alignment so it's not an alternative only for evil casters. And yes, AO approved the change of the corruption portfolio. So he approved the change but he did not make the change himself. That does not mean that Finder couldn't have done the change without Ao's approval, see the point about the Tablets of fate in my previous post.
Dexter_Blacktyde 01-30-08, 03:58 PM	I'm starting to think you guys won't be happy no matter what they do to the Realms. I guess that's true for many. As a Realms fan of twenty years I don't find this article offensive at all. (What's wrong with me?) I'm not excited, but without knowing the details I fail to see why this very broad overview is so hopelessly bad. Some things, especially in regard to Abeir, certainly open up new possibilities. Knowing our designers, I'm just afraid they won't use these opportunities to their full potential. They've been known to use the easy way out before. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, they do little else. drastic changes are against how the realms work. I'm not trying to split hairs, but drastic changes are generally not how a world works – yet the black plague strongly depopulated Europe in the Dark Ages. Drastic changes happen *shrug* DB
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 04:00 PM	Maybe Ao got tired of Mystra trying to be a freaken good deity of magic when she was supposed to be Neutral? "You've been warned enough times Mystra! This time you're staying dead!" *Lord Ao goes back to watching Wheel of Fortune re-runs*
Alediran 01-30-08, 04:05 PM	I'm not talking about physical exhaustion, I'm talking about the fact that every time Mystra dies, something terrible happens in Faerūn, he could be tired of that happening and thus he allowed the portfolios of the deity of magic to cease to exist know that Cyric managed to kill another incarnation of the godess. The first time she was killed by a mortal (AO doesn't interferes with mortals). The second time was because she was violating AO's rule. The third time was becase another god did it (which AO has absolute power over he can prevent that with a thought, gods are the servants of Realmspace, not it's masters) Plus you don't know Ao's psyche (only WotC knows when developing what the character is going to do next) so you can't conclude what Ao would or wouldn't do. AO's job is to keep balance, we know that, and the death of Mystra acts against the balance. Point rendered moot by what I said above. And the Shadow Weave can be accessed by characters with any alignment so it's not an alternative only for evil casters. It is an alternative for those evil casters that don't want to use the Weave. It wouldn't be bad if the Weave could only be accesed by those casters who were aproved by Mystra (evil casters can be aproved by her, Larloch is an example) and the Shadow Weave by those who weren't, much like how clerics select positive and negative energy to chanel in Turn Undead and spontaneous casting. So he approved the change but he did not make the change himself. That does not mean that Finder couldn't have done the change without Ao's approval, see the point about the Tablets of fate in my previous post. It's symbolic. Finder can't change that, only request the change. AO's approval is what changes the portfolio.
buzzard 01-30-08, 04:14 PM	The first time she was killed by a mortal (AO doesn't interferes with mortals). The second time was because she was violating AO's rule. The third time was becase another god did it (which AO has absolute power over he can prevent that with a thought, gods are the servants of Realmspace, not it's masters) Uhmm, Ao can prevent any of the three cases happening, I don't know why you try to differentiate the third case (like it was something prohibited from happening in comparison to the previous two, nothing ever published states that it is impossible for such a thing to happen). It's not the first time that a deity kills another one, so why Ao didn't prevent those from before? maybe because he actually allows such a thing to happen... :rolleyes:. Alediran's plothole +1 AO's job is to keep balance, we know that, and the death of Mystra acts against the balance. This contradicts the fact that he allowed Mystryl to die, wasn't balance in danger then too? Oh right your excuse is that he does not interfere with mortals (and for the record, Mystra commited suicide so she wasn't killed by a mortal, thus, your first case is exactly the same as the third case, why didn't Ao intervene?) yet his precious balance is in danger. And what about erasing people's memories of him in Faerūn, you know what that is? right, interfering with mortals. Alediran's plothole +3 (one because of mystryl and one because of mortal interference :P) It's symbolic. Finder can't change that, only request the change. AO's approval is what changes the portfolio. This still does not contradict the possibility of Ao allowing the destruction of Mystra's portfolios, especially considering how much mortals suffer each time she dies and how regularly she dies. Ao is probably done with the deity of magic, after all, Ao's creations aren't perfect or else the deities wouldn't have needed their lesson when the Time of Trobules happened.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 04:17 PM	But well, those who loathed Shar's victory can be somewhat happy too. Indeed, it looks like your beloved Shar lost control over her precious Shadow Weave.:)
buzzard 01-30-08, 04:23 PM	Indeed, it looks like your beloved Shar lost control over her precious Shadow Weave.:) Oh don't worry, I'll be fine. and I wouldn't say that she's my beloved, I mean, I would never get mad for something that happens in fiction.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 04:28 PM	"Don't worry?" Who says I was worried?:P
buzzard 01-30-08, 04:30 PM	"Don't worry?" Who says I was worried?:P "Nobody" said it :D.
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 04:33 PM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=980842&page=5 My review is posted here.
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 04:51 PM	How is Cyric killing Mystra any different than the Dwarven Pantheon destroying the two Duergar gods, Elistraee killing Vhaeraun, The Dead Three killing whatever the hell that god's name was, Finder killing Moander, etc. What? Ao didn't see any of these battles as upsetting enough to stop them. Why should he stop Cyric from killing Mystra? Especially since she was so hellbent on being a good deity of magic when she should be neutral to everyone. Cyric was promoting murder I might add which is doing his job. It's no different than what Mystra does.
Alediran 01-30-08, 04:54 PM	There is a difference, the other battles didn't threatened the balance (although they threatened consistency), not even the ToT or the death of Mystril (who wasn't killed, she sacrificed herself and AO can't stop somebody for killing him/herself) had the impact of the Spellplague.
DarkSongKnight 01-30-08, 04:55 PM	:eek: Effects on Creatures When the initial wave of Spellplague infected a creature, object, or spell, the target usually dissolved into so much glowing, dissipating ash. Yikes, what a way to go. Well, its good to know Elminster is still around...
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 04:56 PM	There is a difference, the other battles didn't threatened the balance (although they threatened consistency), not even the ToT or the death of Mystril (who wasn't killed, she sacrificed herself and AO can't stop somebody for killing him/herself) had the impact of the Spellplague. Maybe Ao wanted the Spellplague to happen? Maybe he was tired of all the stupid little plots and battles going on. So he let Shar and Cyric do their little plot and let the board be reset. "So Shar....you want to kill Mystra huh? Let's see how you like this...."
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 04:56 PM	Ao caused the Time of Troubles. You seem to think Balance=Good for Humans. Balance= Put the fear of the gods in them. People pray harder when they're screaming.
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 04:59 PM	I think the Time of Troubles was more to put the Fear of Ao into the gods...
buzzard 01-30-08, 05:02 PM	There is a difference, the other battles didn't threatened the balance (although they threatened consistency), not even the ToT or the death of Mystril (who wasn't killed, she sacrificed herself and AO can't stop somebody for killing him/herself) had the impact of the Spellplague. If Mystra's death threatens Ao's balance so much why didn't he made her completely indestructible? And please explain exactly how Mystra's death threatens balance.
Alediran 01-30-08, 05:08 PM	If Mystra's death threatens Ao's balance so much why didn't he made her completely indestructible? And please explain exactly how Mystra's death threatens balance. It's because the developers puposely ignored AO for the whole issue, he didn't get any single mention since the damning lines in GHotR was published. The balance wasn't threatened, it was destroyed. AO created a Crystal Sphere in one way. With the destruction of Mystra not only Toril was changed, but the whole D&D Multiverse, planes changed in a way that hasn't happened in eons. If that's not destryoing the balance I don't know what could qualify as that.
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 05:10 PM	The Spellplague is balanced. Everyone gets screwed:D
buzzard 01-30-08, 05:15 PM	It's because the developers puposely ignored AO for the whole issue, he didn't get any single mention since the damning lines in GHotR was published. And how do you know he was ignored? do you read peoples minds? Maybe he was not mentioned because it wasn't necessary and, as I've said before, there's no information stating that it is impossible to destroy a portfolio, you are the one who tries to force that opinion since obviously WotC thinks otherwise. The balance wasn't threatened, it was destroyed. AO created a Crystal Sphere in one way. With the destruction of Mystra not only Toril was changed, but the whole D&D Multiverse, planes changed in a way that hasn't happened in eons. If that's not destryoing the balance I don't know what could qualify as that. And your best excuse is that the planes changed? How do you know that for Ao that is threatening the balance? Do you even know the precise, exact definition of what is the balance to Ao? I think not... And the fact that Ao created the Crystal Sphere in one way and that the planes rearranging or the world changing threatens the balance is the most pathetic excuse ever, so you are saying that the world cannot change at all? Let's complain about the creation of Evermeet, that's not how Selūne and Shar created Toril!!! Kill evermeet! evermeet threatens the balance!! Kill Elven High Magic, IT THREATENS THE BALANCE!!!! The Demonweb pits became a full-fledged outer plane. but that's not how Ao created the sphere. The demonweb threatens the balance!!! DESTROY IT NOW Nobody complained about those things back then -among a lot of other massive changes- (except those who seek weak excuses because they dislike the changes done).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 05:16 PM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=980842&page=5 My review is posted here. I'll read it (and perhaps comment on it) soon enough.:)
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 05:17 PM	Blame Tharizdun. Canonically, to Gary Gygax, he destroyed it.
Palindrome 01-30-08, 11:52 PM	I'm starting to think you guys won't be happy no matter what they do to the Realms. Infact if it were left up to alot of you the world would never evolve at all from 1st edition. You're afraid of change that much is true. "Oh, hi. We're going to stable a horse in your garage, use your bathtub as a roach farm, and start performing bizarre chemical experiments in your bedroom. Try to hold your breath." "That's atrocious! Get out!" "You don't like change!"
The Ubbergeek 01-31-08, 12:07 AM	Hyperbolic humor.
Meldread 01-31-08, 03:16 AM	Okay, well... these changes are just too drastic for me. My gaming style has moved away from high fantasy and 4E FR has just turned the setting into ultra-uber Epic High Fantasy on crack. Not my cup of tea. Sorry Wizards, I might by the 4E FRCS, but it'll be out of morbid curiosity than an actual interest to game there.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 03:21 AM	Sorry Wizards, I might by the 4E FRCS, but it'll be out of morbid curiosity than an actual interest to game there. -That's what I'm going to do, if I even go that far. I'm probably just going to peruse it in the bookstore, writing down key/interesting points, and not actually spend any money on it. -Wait, does that mean I am ruining the Forgotten Realms?
Zanan 01-31-08, 03:57 AM	And there's still Forgotten Realms (TM) on the top of that?
Nightdruid 01-31-08, 04:45 AM	Effects on the Landscape Where magic was completely loosed, the Spellplague ate through stone and earth as readily as bone and spell. Broad portions of Faerūn’s surface collapsed into the Underdark, partially draining the Sea of Fallen Stars into the Glimmer Sea far below (and leaving behind a continent-sized pit called the Underchasm). So does that mean ports on the Sea of Fallen Stars are now landlocked? Particularly Cormyr; the Lake of Dragons isn't particularly deep... The event splintered several of the Old Empires south of the drained sea into a wildscape of towering mesas, bottomless ravines, and cloud-scraping spires (further erasing evidence of the lands and kingdoms once situated there). Historical lands most changed by the Spellplague include Mulhorand, Unther, Chondath, and portions of Aglarond, the Sea of Fallen Stars, and the Shaar. Wow, that's one way to implement population controls. :p What was once called Halruaa detonated and was destroyed when every inscribed and prepared spell in the nation went off simultaneously. This explosion was partly to blame for destroying the land bridge between Chult and the Shining South—only a scattered archipelago remains. Um, ok...so now the FR got hit with an explosion so powerful it makes the Yellowstone Super Volcano look like a firecracker. So...did any of the following happen? 1. Earthquakes trigged by the explosion 2. Tidal waves devastating most of the coastline, triggered by water first being hit by the concussion wave of the explosion, then again as the water rushes in to replace the displaced landmass & slam into itself 3. A noise so loud it rendered everyone deaf for thousands of miles 4. Nuclear Winter lasting decades (several tens of thousands of cubic miles just vaporized...) 5. An atmosphere being poisoned on a global scale Or do we just assume cartoon physics apply and the global consequences of an explosion so big that it vaporizes tens of thousands of cubic miles can be ignored?
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 06:45 AM	Um, ok...so now the FR got hit with an explosion so powerful it makes the Yellowstone Super Volcano look like a firecracker. So...did any of the following happen? [Disasters of unparalleled proportions] Or do we just assume cartoon physics apply and the global consequences of an explosion so big that it vaporizes tens of thousands of cubic miles can be ignored? In the Forgotten Realms, there's a fun fact that a entirely in-setting appropriate answer was "They would but then Llirra distracted Talos with a big red ball and the end of the world was postponed."
Muradin 01-31-08, 08:19 AM	Man i'cant believe it. It's crap:( I don't know why they change so much in the Realms, but it won't be the Realms anymore. Why don't they just create a new setting instead of killing the most popular and well-detailed one. Yeah and a question: if Mystra is dead along with the Weave than how can Elminster be still around in the 15th century because as far as i know the chosens are not aging because of the divine portion that Mystra inplanted in them. So if Mystra dies along with the Weave that means (at least to me) that a 1000 years old HUMAN is not really speaking wisely because he is dead (since he is suddenly a millenium old man, he should be dead long ago). Totally illogical to me. And not just this...
MarkusTay63 01-31-08, 10:12 AM	It would be interesting to show 3e maps and then 4e maps to a geo-physicist.... and watch him laugh in the designer's faces. :bored: The RW Tsunami of a few years ago was not as powerful as what they describe for the south - it should be a TOTAL KILL scenario for Faerūn. Who knows? Maybe they did this because they wanted the dinosaurs to finally go extinct? :rolleyes: Anyway, I'm all out of steam. I foresaw most of this months ago, but then thought I might be wrong with Rich's last article, which made it seem nothing major was really happening at all (except for the Dragonborn). Now, it appears my worst fears have been realized, and all I can do is sigh.....
Alediran 01-31-08, 10:16 AM	The worst part is watching the posts of ignorants trying to justify Shar & Cyric's victory when I show them how things trully work in the realms and they ignore those rules because they invalidate Mystra's death, I'm fighting at this moment with two complete ignorants. If somebody want's to fray a couple realms bashers with me the thread is this: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=985248
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 11:14 AM	So does that mean ports on the Sea of Fallen Stars are now landlocked? Particularly Cormyr; the Lake of Dragons isn't particularly deep... Probably. Even a partial draining of the Inner Sea should have a massive effect on the area (and there are undersea kingdoms there, too!).
Keryth 01-31-08, 11:49 AM	I'm starting to think you guys won't be happy no matter what they do to the Realms. Infact if it were left up to alot of you the world would never evolve at all from 1st edition. You're afraid of change that much is true. Afraid of change? No Afraid of let's see...exploding nations, vanishing continents, magically appearing nations disappearing other nations? Yea Total disregard for the lore and history of the Relms in an effort to make something totally alien? Yea This is NOT the Realms. This is a new world completely and therefore should have a new name.
Keryth 01-31-08, 11:55 AM	Maybe Ao got tired of Mystra trying to be a freaken good deity of magic when she was supposed to be Neutral? "You've been warned enough times Mystra! This time you're staying dead!" *Lord Ao goes back to watching Wheel of Fortune re-runs* Where is it written that the deity of magic MUST be neutral? One of the things I liked about the Realms was that for once we had a deity of magic that WASNOT Neutral (uggh...Boccob. YUCK) And if it WAS a problem, why nto go the Dragonlance method and break up magic into 3 deities then, one for each aspect of alignment? The more that is released about 4th Ed Realms, the more it looks like New Coke to me.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 12:07 PM	-MT, start on those 4e maps yet? How exactly do you represent a floating landmasses? :P Or do we just assume cartoon physics apply and the global consequences of an explosion so big that it vaporizes tens of thousands of cubic miles can be ignored? -I do believe this is what we are supposed to do.
msatran 01-31-08, 12:28 PM	Where is it written that the deity of magic MUST be neutral? One of the things I liked about the Realms was that for once we had a deity of magic that WASNOT Neutral (uggh...Boccob. YUCK) And if it WAS a problem, why nto go the Dragonlance method and break up magic into 3 deities then, one for each aspect of alignment? The more that is released about 4th Ed Realms, the more it looks like New Coke to me. That's not the real issue for me. It's 1) Cartoon Logic that assumes that the world is totally empty of player characters who might be able to affect the situation. I hate it when they give information like "Your PC's are screwed, this is what happens, that's it." They never give information like "How your PC's can stop it" or "The mechanics of how it works." 2) Cosmic Crises so vast that the Realms should effectively be world of dead people. If you have a calamity that blows up an entire country (Halruaa), the cloud of dust from the detonation would kill everyone as far north as Waterdeep and as far East as Semphar. The sun would be blotted out for at least 20 years. There would be quests for food, quests for water, quests for light. Crops wouldn't grow. We're talking an explosion 1,000,000 times as powerful as Krakatoa, if not more. 3) Dimensional rifts, too. Not only did they blow up things physically, but they also replaced entire chunks of land with other chunks of land. My players are awed by the vastness of the Realms as is. Replacing a lot of this stuff will only lead to confusion. 4) Oh, those sneaky Netherese. Yet, somehow, these guys are immune to needing to breathe, manage to establish an empire, and live in floating cities despite the fact that these enclaves would be cut to rubble by the dust and the wind in the air from the explosions. The Mythal doesn't protect against flying chunks of rock. 5) Maztica replaced. While my players really don't go to Maztica, I would have liked it if they did. Whatever's there now, I'm sure it's boring, Western Fantasy based, and white. This is only the tip of the iceberg. Wizards has convinced me that the Forgotten Realms is dead to me. I don't need their new sourcebooks, though I'll buy them in the vain hope that they could possibly pick up the seeds of this disaster and make something good out of it.
Dexter_Blacktyde 01-31-08, 12:33 PM	Why didn't they just say Halruaa and a couple of thousands of square miles got sucked into Abeir, just like places on Abeir got sucked into Toril? The sudden vacuum would still have similarly devastating consequences, but with a more magical nature of the phenomenon I'd find it a little easier to swallow than an explosion that rips the continent apart and doesn't eventually depopulate half of Faerūn. DB
Jiggawha 01-31-08, 12:35 PM	Or do we just assume cartoon physics apply and the global consequences of an explosion so big that it vaporizes tens of thousands of cubic miles can be ignored? it seems more like a dimensional change, parts of Toril being ''rewritten'' by merging alternate reality
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 12:36 PM	it seems more like a dimensional change, parts of Toril being ''rewritten'' by merging alternate reality -Halruaa literally 'explodes'. It says as much.
msatran 01-31-08, 12:38 PM	This is what I like to call Champions Dimensional Physics. But guys, if I wanted to play Champions, or Crisis on Infinite Torils, I know the Hero System well enough to have publication credits. I don't need D+D in my superheroic logic game. Yeah, I like the critical hit system for 4e. Unfortunately I hate almost everything else.
Dexter_Blacktyde 01-31-08, 12:40 PM	Cartoon Logic that assumes that the world is totally empty of player characters who might be able to affect the situation. I hate it when they give information like "Your PC's are screwed, this is what happens, that's it." They never give information like "How your PC's can stop it" or "The mechanics of how it works." Well, that's how canon works - if the catastrophe could be stopped, it wouldn't be canon anymore, right? Maztica replaced. While my players really don't go to Maztica, I would have liked it if they did. Whatever's there now, I'm sure it's boring, Western Fantasy based, and white. Different strokes for different folks. I'm glad they're getting rid of all these blatant RL carbon copies. I guess they will at least try to come up with something that's not obviously stolen from elsewhere. If they succeed, well, that's another matter. Wizards has convinced me that the Forgotten Realms is dead to me. Only now? Didn't they convince you months ago? You've sure sounded like it ;) DB
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 12:41 PM	Yeah, I like the critical hit system for 4e. -It seems incredibly underpowered, if you ask me. A critical with a Great Axe, does only 12 points of damage, adding your STR bonus. As opposed to, potentially 36 points of damage.
Jiggawha 01-31-08, 12:42 PM	-Halruaa literally 'explodes'. It says as much. it probably refers to their magical devices and the infrastructure of the cities that relied heavily on the Weave, not the land, otherwise it would be absurd, such explosion would end the world
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 12:49 PM	it probably refers to their magical devices and the infrastructure of the cities that relied heavily on the Weave, not the land, otherwise it would be absurd, such explosion would end the world -The explosion already damaged the land: "This explosion was partly to blame for destroying the land bridge between Chult and the Shining South—only a scattered archipelago remains".
Jiggawha 01-31-08, 01:38 PM	read that part now, I'm becoming sick of ''how they're going to explain this'', it seems unexplainable, just dumb Mhair and Black jungles, liked them more than Chult, never been a fan of Cordell's ideas
Alediran 01-31-08, 01:51 PM	Different strokes for different folks. I'm glad they're getting rid of all these blatant RL carbon copies. I guess they will at least try to come up with something that's not obviously stolen from elsewhere. If they succeed, well, that's another matter. They can't because they proved that they don't have creativity. Like MT said in a thread, the Feywild sounds much like a part of the Birthright setting (created by Richard Baker)
Palindrome 01-31-08, 02:07 PM	This is what I like to call Champions Dimensional Physics. But guys, if I wanted to play Champions, or Crisis on Infinite Torils, I know the Hero System well enough to have publication credits. I don't need D+D in my superheroic logic game. Yeah, I like the critical hit system for 4e. Unfortunately I hate almost everything else. Perhaps for 5e they'll drop the entire world of Eberron on top of Faerun. After all, that's sort of what they're doing now. Why not finish killing off FR instead of leaving its gangrenous body squirming in pain?
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 02:14 PM	read that part now, I'm becoming sick of ''how they're going to explain this'', it seems unexplainable, just dumb -There's plenty of 'good' ways to explain things. Unfortunatley, it seems to me that 'they' are seemingly not choosing the 'best' ways to explain things.
18DELTA 01-31-08, 02:26 PM	They can't because they proved that they don't have creativity. Like MT said in a thread, the Feywild sounds much like a part of the Birthright setting (created by Richard Baker) -Dont you mean the shadowfell?;) 18DELTA:)
Alediran 01-31-08, 02:27 PM	-Dont you mean the shadowfell?;) 18DELTA:) That too.
Nightdruid 01-31-08, 03:27 PM	In the Forgotten Realms, there's a fun fact that a entirely in-setting appropriate answer was "They would but then Llirra distracted Talos with a big red ball and the end of the world was postponed." LOL...makes about as much sense as anything else.
Nightdruid 01-31-08, 03:34 PM	Th RW Tsunami of a few years ago was not as powerful as what they describe for the south - it should be a TOTAL KILL scenario for Faerūn. Basically, yes. It'd either be many 2005 Tsunamis as the land "fell" into the ocean (which would be very difficult to do, since there's only so much space below the waters) or one really big, mile-high, continent-killer one. Kill most of the life in the sea, too. 2) Cosmic Crises so vast that the Realms should effectively be world of dead people. If you have a calamity that blows up an entire country (Halruaa), the cloud of dust from the detonation would kill everyone as far north as Waterdeep and as far East as Semphar. The sun would be blotted out for at least 20 years. There would be quests for food, quests for water, quests for light. Crops wouldn't grow. We're talking an explosion 1,000,000 times as powerful as Krakatoa, if not more. That level of destruction would dwarf just about every known mass extinction event that's befallen Earth, from super volcanoes to asteroid impacts. A large volcano shoots up a couple of cubic miles of ash into the atmosphere; Yellowstone I believe is in the tens of cubic miles range. This would be in the tens of thousands of cubic miles. Some could fall into the underdark, some into the sea. But that's accounting for only a tiny fraction of the mass that'd have to be removed. Where's that mass go?
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 03:43 PM	My take on Halruaa's death is that there's not one gigantic Atomic Bomb blast but about 10,000 Fireballs, Cloud Kill Spells, and all the other weapon based wands and so on they've stockpiled that go off at once. Plus any Meteor Swarms and or other nasty spells with the occasional Earthquake. Oddly, that's not NEARLY cataclysmic enough to cause structure changes to the whole of the place but could it wipe out most of Haruula? I say damn straight
Nightdruid 01-31-08, 03:55 PM	My take on Halruaa's death is that there's not one gigantic Atomic Bomb blast but about 10,000 Fireballs, Cloud Kill Spells, and all the other weapon based wands and so on they've stockpiled that go off at once. Plus any Meteor Swarms and or other nasty spells with the occasional Earthquake. Not even remotely on the scale it would take the remove literally tens of thousands of cubic miles of earth, stone, and rock. Scorch the land, kill the people? Possibly, but a huge chunk of land is destroyed; the article implies one big explosion (which, to remove that much land at once, would be a planet-killer event), but were it a series of smaller events, each would be big enough to generate killer tsunamis, on a daily basis, for that much land to be gone in that short of a time. Simply put, removing that much land has global consequences.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 04:01 PM	-Supposedly, sometime in the future, one of the Azures Island is supposed to collapse and topple into the sea, creating a tidal wave that is supposed to level the northeastern seaboard...
Nightdruid 01-31-08, 04:15 PM	-Supposedly, sometime in the future, one of the Azures Island is supposed to collapse and topple into the sea, creating a tidal wave that is supposed to level the northeastern seaboard... I've seen that documentary; remember, that involves "only" a cubic mile or two. The resulting tidal wave would be taller than some sky scrapers, IIRC.
Suin Bahhar 01-31-08, 04:40 PM	Halrua might not have been nuked in a single explosion but multpile ones. The landmass can still largely be intact or brittled and eroded away. At least Halruas cities are gonna get really wrecked with all the primed devices they hold. Large citysized craters are not as Krakatauesque in the disaster scale.
glitter 01-31-08, 04:52 PM	Wow wow wow. So, Alaster Blackcoat was trying to stop all that ? Are we talking about the greatest wizard of his time ? Or of a damn party crasher ?
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 05:08 PM	I've seen that documentary; remember, that involves "only" a cubic mile or two. The resulting tidal wave would be taller than some sky scrapers, IIRC. -Something like that. Think "The Day After Tomorrow", or whatever that movie was called. So, Alaster Blackcoat was trying to stop all that ? -Halaster Blackcloak, yes. Are we talking about the greatest wizard of his time ? -As they say, there is a fine line between insanity and genius.
Nightdruid 01-31-08, 05:21 PM	-Something like that. Think "The Day After Tomorrow", or whatever that movie was called. There's an actual documentary, not a movie, that details the threat of tidal waves resulting from the Azores sliding into the sea. Basically what has happened is that the Azores has several volcanic dikes, sorta like pages in a book standing on end, with looser soil between them. What happens is that water soaks into the dirt, causing it to expand, and eventually the dikes break, causing a huge landside into the sea. The danger is that a huge chunk of the island will slide into the sea, triggering a tidal wave that can hit the eastern US with more force than the 2005 tsunami, flooding & even destroying many coastal cities with little warning.
admcewen 01-31-08, 05:41 PM	Hi there I very rarely post on forums such as these but I do enjoy reading them (their quite funny actually), but after reading them for several months and then reading this one I felt the need to say something... I've played D&D most of my life and played in the Realms since 1989, and while I am a little unsure about the dragonborn I really have no big issues about many of the changes to the Realms. However I would like to point out a little something (I'm probably going to get killed for this, still it will be a fun read), while I agree that in exact scientific terms most of these changes don't make sense (and I do believe campaign worlds should make some basic realworld sense) but (and this is a big rounded full bodied but) this is also a world with DRAGONS, REAL MAGIC, ELVES and FAIRIES and I feel the need to point out that it isn't really that important bearing in mind we have no real world evidence of how MAGIC would effect the destruction of a country and most scientists I know (and I know many) would agree with you but also point out something similer to what I have mentioned above (or suggest playing D20 modern). I love the Realms and I sense that most of you guys do too, but honestly seeing as we have little more than ***-bits given to us maybe we should take a step back (calm down) and wait for more info. No insult is intended to anyone here I am just feelling a little frustrated at all this hate floating around...
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 07:42 PM	However I would like to point out a little something (I'm probably going to get killed for this, still it will be a fun read), while I agree that in exact scientific terms most of these changes don't make sense (and I do believe campaign worlds should make some basic realworld sense) but (and this is a big rounded full bodied but) this is also a world with DRAGONS, REAL MAGIC, ELVES and FAIRIES and I feel the need to point out that it isn't really that important bearing in mind we have no real world evidence of how MAGIC would effect the destruction of a country and most scientists I know (and I know many) would agree with you but also point out something similer to what I have mentioned above (or suggest playing D20 modern). -Regardless of whatever fantastical features a world does or does not have, it needs internal consistency. I love the Realms and I sense that most of you guys do too, but honestly seeing as we have little more than ***-bits given to us maybe we should take a step back (calm down) and wait for more info. -As someone else has pointed out, what is the threshold where we have 'enough' information to make a proper decision? The next web article? The 4e FRCS? A sourcebook after that? No insult is intended to anyone here I am just feelling a little frustrated at all this hate floating around... -As a philosopher I like says, "Those who do not have passion for what they have deserve not what they have" (Sypa).
MarkusTay63 01-31-08, 09:36 PM	Word. :cool: -It seems incredibly underpowered, if you ask me. A critical with a Great Axe, does only 12 points of damage, adding your STR bonus. As opposed to, potentially 36 points of damage.Well, from what I gather (and it's constantly changing), it's the 'adds' that will make the difference - attributes like Str now go up higher and faster, certain character choices (paths/Feats) will allow greater damage for a crit, and 'gear' will also play a major role in damage dealt (ala video games). I haven't been following the mechanical blogs too closely, since my main concern right now is 4e FR, but thats the gist I get. There's a LOT I'm not liking about the latest news, but to me, its not ALL bad - maztica needed an overhaul, and I think most of us knew that, and seperating Chult from the mainland was something I did years ago - it makes so much more sense that way. You need some form of physical barrier to seperate such a different region (environmentally and cuturally) from the rest of Faerūn. Other then that, I don't see much to look forward to with the south looking like Armageddon warmed over. -MT, start on those 4e maps yet? How exactly do you represent a floating landmasses? :P I give up... http://www.degrassi-boards.com/images/smilies/icons/surrender.gif
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 09:50 PM	Well, from what I gather (and it's constantly changing), it's the 'adds' that will make the difference - attributes like Str now go up higher and faster, certain character choices (paths/Feats) will allow greater damage for a crit, and 'gear' will also play a major role in damage dealt (ala video games). -Uh...huh... I give up... http://www.degrassi-boards.com/images/smilies/icons/surrender.gif -Indeed, and I am sorry for that. (-And, you do realize that the ':surrender' smiley is already on the 'official' smiley list, right? No need to go to other places to get it.)
Connell 02-01-08, 01:07 AM	Interestingly, Halruaa was 1 of the 2 nations in the FRCS (the other being Lantan) that had the most "Eberron-esque" feel to it. And now it is gone.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 08:34 AM	Hey, I like it!!!:) My blood is boiling in anticipation:cool:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 01:43 PM	Word. :cool: Well, from what I gather (and it's constantly changing), it's the 'adds' that will make the difference - attributes like Str now go up higher and faster, certain character choices (paths/Feats) will allow greater damage for a crit, and 'gear' will also play a major role in damage dealt (ala video games). Well, I DID read that in 4E, magical equipment is being deemphasized in terms of its importance--that is, a PC's power will mostly come from the character itself, not the equipment said character is using.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 01:45 PM	Interestingly, Halruaa was 1 of the 2 nations in the FRCS (the other being Lantan) that had the most "Eberron-esque" feel to it. And now it is gone. Halruaa was the type of "fantastic" place Worlds and Monsters said was going to be emphasized in 4E, which is why I'm rather baffled as to why it wound up destroyed.
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 01:45 PM	My blood is boiling in anticipation:cool: -Actually, I was just trying out a spell a Blood Magus showed me. Sorry. I'll test my next spell on DELTA, don't worry.
Kouk 02-01-08, 03:40 PM	Totally throws consistently out the window for a lot of the things I agree, but I also see a large amount of "laziness" involved as well. Consistency issues: I am not an expert, but why should the death of Mystra affect the planes of the Abyss at all? Laziness: Variety Subset of players: Hey WotC! Re-do Chult and Maztica and Mulhorrand/Unther! It was nice to have a non-western view of fantasy! WotC: OK, we will re-do Chult and Maztica and reexamine Mulhorrand and Unther. Chult is cut off from Faerun completely. Maztica vanishes and is replaced by the campaign world we already had designed for 4th edition. Mulhorrand and Unther sink into the Underdark and everything is destroyed. Everyone's happy right? Laziness: Setting Consolidation Change Plague: Eberron's Mournland, but all over the place. Spellscarred: Eberron's Dragonmarks, but anyone can have them. Planes of existence: Feywild "rediscovered", conveniently containing fairy monsters and landscape/setting they had already developed. Abeir returns, conveniently (I suspect) bearing the new races, such as the Dragonborn and Tiefling "pure" race, involving exactly the same mythology presented in Races and Classes. Also, look forward to the Warforged emerging from some hole... Abyss conveniently "sinks" into the "elemental chaos" (which they failed to address the existence of in this article), conveniently exactly what they developed as well for 4th edition. Still makes no sense to me why this was necessary. In my opinion, they could (and should) have put a little more effort into differentiating Eberron from the Forgotten Realms rather than just using all the same material across both. Different cosmologies already existed for both settings, now (I foresee) the same. Different levels of magic existed in both settings, but now they have the same. Action Points for everyone (not a bad idea, but it was a differentiating factor).
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 03:43 PM	-What are 'Action Points', anyway? Basically, like 'Force Points' from the d6 Star Wars RPG, where they let you put a little 'Oomph' into an action?
XHereticX 02-01-08, 04:00 PM	-What are 'Action Points', anyway? Basically, like 'Force Points' from the d6 Star Wars RPG, where they let you put a little 'Oomph' into an action? Yeah, they did say that the Star Wars RPG was a direct inspiration for 4E. I think Kouk makes a very good point, but with his method, WoTC would lose money from Realms and Eberron fans not purchasing Core products because they aren't very related to the settings.
Kouk 02-02-08, 12:26 AM	Yeah, they did say that the Star Wars RPG was a direct inspiration for 4E. I think Kouk makes a very good point, but with his method, WoTC would lose money from Realms and Eberron fans not purchasing Core products because they aren't very related to the settings. Or perhaps the goal is to make every single book they put out immediately useful (or perhaps necessary) no matter what campaign setting is used. Sort of how more people overall buy a Monster Manual 2 or Complete Arcane than they do Magic of Eberron or Shining South. From a business standpoint it makes sense, but you sacrifice the unique flavor of the settings -- even if they have numerous sidebars to the effects of: "If you are using FR this is how you can incorporate this element, and if you use Eberron you can incorporate it this way" similar to the more recent Monster Manuals. This could also possibly cut down on the number of full-time employed writers necessary, and rely more on freelancers when writing campaign specific books (though they do a lot of this now).
18DELTA 02-02-08, 11:47 PM	-Actually, I was just trying out a spell a Blood Magus showed me. Sorry. I'll test my next spell on DELTA, don't worry. -Will it hurt? :eek: :bigeyes: :mymy: :twitch: :blink: :ghosted: :hides: 18DELTA:P
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 01:42 AM	-Will it hurt? :eek: :bigeyes: :mymy: :twitch: :blink: :ghosted: :hides: 18DELTA:P -You? You might like it.
Zanan 02-03-08, 04:38 AM	Applying just about half an ounce of realism to the events described, I noted that when Halruaa was blasted into orbit, about 1,700,000 people lost their lifes. Well, maybe not that much, but even if you cut these numbers in half, I mean ... Spellplague is not ravaging each and every place like that, but since it goes on for 100 years, you'd assume that many highly magical places would see similar "changes". Places like ... Evermeet, the various "Myths", flying Shade enclaves, drow cities, you name it. Having just read Stardeep, I wonder how the Sildeyur will fare, or the place that imprisons the traitor and stopping that aboleth city to rise. The rising of Thay would not be something the average population may like too ... so will such events (not to mention the direct effects of the Spellplague on people) cut the numbers of inhabitants of Faerūn? Only fast-breeding races would be able to compensate, races like ... ahem ... goblins and kobolds. :cool:
18DELTA 02-03-08, 11:16 AM	-You? You might like it. -OK!!!:D :dancin::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce: :bounce::dancin: 18DELTA:heehee
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 12:15 PM	Spellplague is not ravaging each and every place like that, but since it goes on for 100 years, you'd assume that many highly magical places would see similar "changes". Places like ... Evermeet, the various "Myths", flying Shade enclaves, drow cities, you name it. -Concerning that, Rich Baker has said that the Spellplage "flowed around" places with high magical concentration, a la Mythals and similar magical wards/effects.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 12:58 PM	From a business standpoint it makes sense, but you sacrifice the unique flavor of the settings -- even if they have numerous sidebars to the effects of: "If you are using FR this is how you can incorporate this element, and if you use Eberron you can incorporate it this way" similar to the more recent Monster Manuals. I totally agree. But the fact is that most people today play homebrew/core D&D and don't really care about the unique flavor of some campaign setting they don't play in. So WoTC is feeding the cash cow.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-03-08, 04:45 PM	-Concerning that, Rich Baker has said that the Spellplage "flowed around" places with high magical concentration, a la Mythals and similar magical wards/effects. I still don't really understand how that works.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 12:18 AM	I still don't really understand how that works. -It's best not to attempt to, and just go with it at this point. :rolleyes:
JohnnieBurgess 02-04-08, 01:11 AM	So Thay should be hit hard by this. -Concerning that, Rich Baker has said that the Spellplage "flowed around" places with high magical concentration, a la Mythals and similar magical wards/effects.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 01:48 AM	So Thay should be hit hard by this. -What happens to Thay has already been stated. To paraphrase, large chunks of the land itself suddenly floated into the sky. Obviously, this is going to have lasting impacts on the geography, and the people of the area.
JohnnieBurgess 02-04-08, 02:01 AM	I would hate to be the mapmaker having to make all the changes. -What happens to Thay has already been stated. To paraphrase, large chunks of the land itself suddenly floated into the sky. Obviously, this is going to have lasting impacts on the geography, and the people of the area.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 02:03 AM	I would hate to be the mapmaker having to make all the changes. -I've echoed the same sentiments.
18DELTA 02-04-08, 12:10 PM	I would hate to be the mapmaker having to make all the changes. -MarkusTay63 better get busy. Did he ever submit to your will and become the 'Kartographer of Karsus':ton: ? If not, come to the 'Dark Side' MT63 for we have 'COOKIES'!!!:cool: 18DELTA;)
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 12:31 PM	-MarkusTay63 better get busy. Did he ever submit to your will and become the 'Kartographer of Karsus':ton: ? If not, come to the 'Dark Side' MT63 for we have 'COOKIES'!!!:cool: 18DELTA;) -'Kookies', not 'cookies'. Anything that begins with a 'C' begins with a 'K', now. ;) -And, it's not the 'Dark Side'. Would you believe if I told you that, once upon a time, I was a really good guy? Only a few people around here know that about me...:cool: -I've already sent my most sincere apologies to MT, for his cartography work in 4e is either going to be non-existent, or extremely difficult.
18DELTA 02-04-08, 02:43 PM	-'Kookies', not 'cookies'. Anything that begins with a 'C' begins with a 'K', now. ;) -And, it's not the 'Dark Side'. Would you believe if I told you that, once upon a time, I was a really good guy? Only a few people around here know that about me...:cool: -I've already sent my most sincere apologies to MT, for his Kartography work in 4e is either going to be non-existent, or extremely difficult. -I fixed your one mistake for the day.:P 18DELTA;)
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 03:29 PM	-I fixed your one mistake for the day.:P 18DELTA;) -He can be taught! :P -Yes, if MT ever joined the Hands of Karsus, he'd be the Kartographer of Karsus. :)
18DELTA 02-04-08, 11:52 PM	-He can be taught! :P -Yes, if MT ever joined the Hands of Karsus, he'd be the Kartographer of Karsus. :) -I do have my moments!:D 18DELTA;)
glitter 02-05-08, 06:54 AM	-Concerning that, Rich Baker has said that the Spellplage "flowed around" places with high magical concentration, a la Mythals and similar magical wards/effects. Right. So, in Unther where the spellplage "flowed a lot", wizards were forbidden by Gilgeam to cast high levels spells, so why so much attraction ? :weep:
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 02:24 PM	Right. So, in Unther where the spellplage "flowed a lot", wizards were forbidden by Gilgeam to cast high levels spells, so why so much attraction ? :weep: -Because it was determined that Unther was an area that people didn't like? -By 'Flow Around', I don't mean the Spellplague appears there. By 'Flow Around', it means that it did not touch said area.
Mula 02-06-08, 03:01 AM	To be honest, I'm glad that I don't have to see Egyptian adventurers riding camels in Silverymoon.
glitter 02-08-08, 07:18 AM	To be honest, I'm glad that I don't have to see Egyptian adventurers riding camels in Silverymoon. You're damn right. Let's kill the mulhorandis :mad:
MarkusTay63 02-08-08, 12:23 PM	To be honest, I'm glad that I don't have to see Egyptian adventurers riding camels in Silverymoon.Only if they were bought off of the nearby Bedine... you know, the guys that appear in EVERY desert on Toril, even if the desert is only a few hundred years old... :rolleyes: --Yes, if MT ever joined the Hands of Karsus, he'd be the Kartographer of Karsus. :)I'd rather be the Tail of Karsus (Ktail?) This way, I would be the "tail that wags the dog". :P
Fabius Maximus 02-08-08, 04:52 PM	The Bedine are one of the things I want to completely retconned in the new edition. (Not that it will happen, but still...) Makeing them exiled Zhakarans is even more stupid than putting Dragonborn in the Realms.
MarkusTay63 02-08-08, 05:53 PM	I re-wrote it that they were exiled barbarians from the Stoney waste, east of Ulgarth (in canon, their language IS called Uloushin). During the Scouring of the Utter East (GHotR, pg. 95), it states that the Grand Caliph of Zakhara sent a vast armada and army to 'cleanse' the Utter East, and that tens of thousands of desert warriors poured over the region. My Take: When they finally left, many were left behind (some, like the Mamluk slaves, did so intentionally). Some traveled as far as Estagund, to work for the Emir, and others took up residence in the Castle of Al'Hanar, while most took to the Stoney Waste and lower Raurin, embracing their ancestral heritage as desert raiders. And one group, wandering into the mountains, stumbled upon an anceient Imaskari portal (once used to spy on rising Netheril), and were whisked away to Anauroch. Ergo, the Bedine were originally from Zakahara, but they are the decendents of Zakaharans that were part of an invasion force against Faerūn. It's a little 'cleaner' that way, and ties their existance into established lore better. Of course, if you play in 4e, none of that is neccessary, since the Bedine are simply going to become part of the Empire of Shade (and effectively 'just go away').
Mula 02-08-08, 10:36 PM	You're damn right. Let's kill the mulhorandis :mad:SHUSH! You're supposed to say things like, "It don't make sense!!!1" and "Cats and dogs living together! ZOMG!!!"
18DELTA 02-08-08, 11:31 PM	I'd rather be the Tail of Karsus (Ktail?) This way, I would be the "tail that wags the dog". :P -So you want to be able to smell his divine farts, huh?:P:P:P:P:P 18DELTA:P
Fabius Maximus 02-09-08, 09:03 AM	Markus, I bet there will be a resistance movement among the Bedine. They hate spellcasters, so they won't accept the Shade dominion. If I ever come around rewriting the Bedine, they will be descendants of the netherese successor-states and the low netherese barbarians. And they won't use camels.
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 09:13 AM	Markus, I bet there will be a resistance movement among the Bedine. They hate spellcasters, so they won't accept the Shade dominion. -They resisted Zhent expansion into the Anauroch, so there's no reason that they wouldn't resist Shadovar expansion into the Anauroch. Don't necessarily know how sucessful they'd be, but...
MarkusTay63 02-10-08, 12:56 AM	Between the Zhents and the Shades (a rock and a hard place?), and the fact that they were never really a good fit, I'd kiss them goodbye come 4e. Personally, I think desert-folk more along the lines of the Aiel (WoT), or the Fremen (Dune) would have been a better fit, and more fantastical then yet another middle-eastern culture. Even Sandpeople (desert Orcs?) and Jawas (Desert Gnomes?) would have been a better fit. Of course... I put THOSE over in the Raurin... :devil:
Lord Karsus 02-10-08, 01:24 AM	-Personally, I like the concept of the Anauroch being completely devoid of life, the lingering magics of the Phaerimm continues sapping the life out of not only the area itself, but anything that enters it as well (Humans, Orcs, Elves, Beholders, etc.)
Fabius Maximus 02-10-08, 10:03 AM	Betwen the Zhents and the Shades (a rock and a hard place?), and the fact that they were never really a good fit, I'd kiss them goodbye come 4e. Personally, I think desert-folk more along the lines of the Aiel (WoT), or the Fremen (Dune) would have been a better fit, and more fantastical then yet another middle-eastern culture. Even Sandpeople (desert Orcs?) and Jawas (Desert Gnomes?) would have been a better fit. Of course... I put THOSE over in the Raurin... :devil: Well, Sandstorm has two "new" races that might fit Anauroch: the Asheratis and the Bhukas. The Asheratis live underneath the sand and could be netherese survivors who transformed themselves (or were transformed by magical side-effects) into their new forms. The Bhuka essentially are desert goblins. Since much of southern Anauroch was a goblin empire at one time, their existance makes sense.
Loreseeker 02-10-08, 04:29 PM	Regarding the 4E: Some things I've seen sound OK, some good (though some of them probably are common practice on gaming toubles since before 3E - and some of the OK/good stuff, e.g. "no confirmation role for crits", is an old hat - just look back to 2E and before - that's nothing new!) ... and quite a few things some sound absolutely bad. (More) donkey-eared elves, WOW- and manga-style artwork and powers ...? Thanks, but no thanks. It's even worse in the case of what I've seen of the 4E realms. The article "Magic in the Realms" was my incentive to write a few sentences here ... What's written there reads just so ... wrong, ... at least in my opinion. Everytime I read something about the "new and better and easier to manage"-Realms, I just have to shake my head. Spellplague ... A huge retcon-device - and, I'm sorry to say that - a pretty lame one. For my part, I was always glad about the established cultures, countries and so on offered by the realms ... and it's pantheons. It's a pity that they seem sacrifice continuity and a lot of diversity just "to make the game simpler" (? ... was anyone forced to use every official product? If so, then the enforcers just overlooked me ... :-)), ... and to be able to introduce new 4E elements ... (including probably some too weird/wacky stuff for my taste ... like they did with 3E). Thus said, I've been and still am a FR reader and gamer ... and I still somewhat hope that the future's not as dark as it seems to be to me -- though my hope sinks with every new article published .... We'll see ... in a few months.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-10-08, 06:55 PM	... was anyone forced to use every official product? Apparently, some people felt that they were.:rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 02-10-08, 08:24 PM	I was under the impression that the Coastapo showed up at your house and beat you with leather dice bags if you did not comply. :P Well, Sandstorm has two "new" races that might fit Anauroch: the Asheratis and the Bhukas. The Asheratis live underneath the sand and could be netherese survivors who transformed themselves (or were transformed by magical side-effects) into their new forms. The Bhuka essentially are desert goblins. Since much of southern Anauroch was a goblin empire at one time, their existance makes sense.If you check out my Stonelands DM map over at CK, you'll see I placed the Bhuka in the southern Anauroch - given the abundance of Goblin Tribes in the region, I though it was a very good fit. The Asherati I imagine more in the Raurin, and they are Imaskari survivors. Maybe its just me, but I prefer to attribute the wierder stuff to Imaskar, rather then Netheril. In fact, given the Egyptian flavor of much of Sandstorm's locales, items, and creatures, I would put about 90% of that tome in the Raurin.
Lord Karsus 02-10-08, 08:43 PM	I was under the impression that the Coastapo showed up at your house and beat you with leather dice bags if you did not comply. :P -Yes, they are the ones that make sure that everyone complies completely and fully with canon. Every FRCS comes with a little spy camera.
MarkusTay63 02-11-08, 12:55 AM	Then I suppose I should stop doing the naked Numa Numa dance in front of my copy... :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 02-11-08, 01:03 AM	Then I suppose I should stop doing the naked Numa Numa dance in front of my copy... :rolleyes: -I don't know what that is, but since it involves you being naked, and dancing around a book, yes. Sounds like some kind of scary religious ritual.
MarkusTay63 02-11-08, 01:13 AM	Enjoy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60og9gwKh1o) Everyone needs to see it... once. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-11-08, 01:22 AM	Enjoy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60og9gwKh1o) Everyone needs to see it... once. ;) -I don't know if I want to click that link. Will this make my eyes burn?
MarkusTay63 02-11-08, 01:27 AM	It was the #1 video on the internet three years ago, and I can't believe you didn't get my reference. Then again, the #1 video right now is 2 girls, 1 cup, so thats not saying much. But unlike THAT video, Numa Numa won't make your eyes burn. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-11-08, 01:39 AM	It was the #1 video on the internet three years ago, and I can't believe you didn't get my reference. -Never heard of it. Then again, the #1 video right now is 2 girls, 1 cup, so thats not saying much. -Never heard of that either.
Fabius Maximus 02-11-08, 09:42 AM	The Asherati I imagine more in the Raurin, and they are Imaskari survivors. Maybe its just me, but I prefer to attribute the wierder stuff to Imaskar, rather then Netheril. In fact, given the Egyptian flavor of much of Sandstorm's locales, items, and creatures, I would put about 90% of that tome in the Raurin. I prefer to ignore most of the egyptian stuff in the book...
18DELTA 02-11-08, 02:33 PM	-FREAKS!!! 18DELTA;)
Vulpes 02-11-08, 11:55 PM	Never heard of that either. You don't want to know. The Numa Numa thing is funny, though, and not gross or NSFW.
glitter 02-12-08, 11:03 AM	SHUSH! You're supposed to say things like, "It don't make sense!!!1" and "Cats and dogs living together! ZOMG!!!" I've got character living in Unther (inspired by old Babylon/sumerian civilizations) not in Mulhorand (Egypt) :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-12-08, 07:53 PM	It was the #1 video on the internet three years ago, and I can't believe you didn't get my reference. Then again, the #1 video right now is 2 girls, 1 cup, so thats not saying much. I've heard of it, and what I've heard was enough to make me NOT want to watch it!:yuck: For those who want to know what I've heard about it... Two girls vomit and crap in a cup, and eat said vomit and crap I'm squeamish, so I don't need to watch it (since it's porn, I don't think it's on youtube, anyway). You CAN however watch reactions to the video people posted on youtube. But unlike THAT video, Numa Numa won't make your eyes burn. ;) It's a very catchy song.:D I think it's in Polish.
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 08:03 PM	I've heard of it, and what I've heard was enough to make me NOT want to watch it!:yuck: For those who want to know what I've heard about it... Two girls vomit and crap in a cup, and eat said vomit and crap I'm squeamish, so I don't need to watch it (since it's porn, I don't think it's on youtube, anyway). You CAN however watch reactions to the video people posted on youtube. -Mm, how wholesome...:nonono: