A cleric who doesn't want to turn undead? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A cleric who doesn't want to turn undead? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
wizzzzzard
03-03-08, 12:42 PM So here's the deal. I'm running a table top Faerun game, in which all the players are good clerics, or neutral clerics of good deities. With one exception.

The player came up with a highly entertaining concept of a half-orc cleric who worships the power of storms. His chosen deity is Istishia. (I tried to get him to go towards Valkur, but he liked the elemental god more.)

He wants to give up turning for some other ability. He hasn't come up with anything in particular, but is willing to accept what I might offer him.

His rationale for such is that Istishia doesn't really care about undead. They aren't a priority for him, unlike Kelemvor, or Lathander. My counter argument is that undeath represents stagnation, which Isitishia is against, but even I admit that it is a weak point.

I don't mind opening up the possibility of other players wanting to drop undead turning so long as not everyone does. (And there are some who won't.)

I thought about offering him one of the domain feats from Complete Champion, but that seems kind of weak in comparison. I thought about offering him Sacred Vitality and/or Spurn Death's Touch from Libris Mortis, since they are 'flavored' for use against undead.

I would like some ideas, if anyone has any. Should I tell him to suck it up, and keep turning? Try one of the ideas I mentioned above? Or something else entirely? With a whole party of clerics, not everyone need to be able to turn. But what other choice do I have?
Fabius Maximus
03-03-08, 12:48 PM http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantClasses.htm

Look at the class feature variant. The Planar Banishment variant would fit a cleric of Istishia very well.
Soltares
03-03-08, 12:55 PM Usually Turn Undead is replaced in Alternate Class Features with some other sort of Turn / Rebuke (Dragons, Vermin, etc.). If the Cleric doesn't already have the Water Domain, the Turn / Rebuke Fire / Water creatures ability of that Domain seems like an obvious choice. Turn / Rebuke Sea Creatures could also be an option (or just Wild Empathy with sea creatures and the ability to speak Aquan?).

Other options would include the ability to Spontaneously cast spells of the Water Domain (in addition to Cure or Inflict spells, depending on his alignment), or a Water Breathing ability that can affect himself or others, in 10 minutes / level, divided out as he chooses. If he's more militant in mind, the 'punishing force of the waves' sort of person, perhaps he could get some daily uses of a Smite power (equal to his Wis or Cha modifier +1 / day) in place of his Turn / Rebuke power. Or he could be all about the 'cleansing / purifying / life-giving power of the sea' and have a Lay On Hands ability or a healing touch that allows a new save vs. poison, disease or certain other conditions (stunned, nauseated, sickened).

Turn / Rebuke is a powerful ability, and fuels a lot of feats. Consider having whatever power replaces it be usable a similar amount of times per day, able to be modified by Extra Turning (even if, like a Smite attack or a Lay on Hands effect, it isn't 'turning'), and usable to fuel the various Divine Feats. He'll still be 'channeling' power, in this case elemental power, so there's no reason that he couldn't channel this elemental power to fuel the various Divine Feats, otherwise the ability to replace Turn / Rebuke should be *darn spiffy* if it's not just replacing Turn / Rebuke, but also all of the feats and abilities that can be powered off of Turn / Rebuke!

In this sort of instance, the Smite-variant would be usable as many times as Turn could normally be used, Extra 'Turning' could be purchased to get more Smites, and the Smites could be used to fuel a Divine Feat. A standard 'Smite' would be +Cha bonus to attack and +level to damage and, depending on the rationale, it might be more or less effective against water or fire creatures. (Or completely ineffective against Water creatures or even aquatic creatures, but extra effective against Fire creatures, causing them to save at Fort DC 15 or take 1d6 damage the following round as well.)

The 'Lay on Hands' variant might only cure hit point damage equal to the casters Cha or Wis modifier with a touch, but allow touches / day equal to the number of Turn attempts that caster would have. Each touch would also allow another save (at the same DC as the original effect) to resist or break free from poison, disease or a stunned, dazed, nauseated or sickened condition, 'washing away' the infirmity.

Finally, another variant might be usable as many times as Turning attempts, and Summon a Small Water Elemental for rounds equal to his Charisma Modifier (or level, or whatever). At 4th level, he can burn 2 attempts to Summon a Medium Water Elemental, at 8th level, 3 attempts for a Large Water Elemental, at 12th level, 4 attempts for a Huge Water Elemental, at 16th level, 5 attempts for a Greater Water Elemental, and at 20th level he can use 6 of his daily 'turn' attempts (assuming he has that many!) to Summon an Elder Water Elemental.
wizzzzzard
03-03-08, 02:27 PM Fabius: That's a great idea! Thanks! I don't have Unearthed Arcana, but I can get it from someone.

Soltares: Thanks for your input too. The character can already spontaneously cast to the Storm domain, so adding water could work. I am adding as a possilbe bonus feat, the choice of one of the domain feats at either 5th or 10th level. Probably 5th.
Lord Karsus
03-03-08, 04:10 PM If the Cleric doesn't already have the Water Domain, the Turn / Rebuke Fire / Water creatures ability of that Domain seems like an obvious choice. Turn / Rebuke Sea Creatures could also be an option (or just Wild Empathy with sea creatures and the ability to speak Aquan?).

-Agreed. This was what I was going to suggest.
Diffan
03-03-08, 07:22 PM Has your player realized the versatility of turning/rebuking undead? Besides what it was designed to do, there are SO many alternatives to using his attempts. Divine Might, Divine Vigor, Divine Metamagic [quicken spell], ALL of the Domain Feats from Complete Champion are good posibilities. My cleric of Tyr doesnt even use his attempts to turn undead, they're just there to quicken two of his spells per day and later on with Extra Turning, can take advantage of things like Law Domain or Divine Might. Getting rid of his turning/rebuking ability severly limits him to what he can/can't do and theres not too many AFC (alternate class features) that can compare to that ability.

-just my :twocents:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wizzzzzard 03-03-08, 12:42 PM	So here's the deal. I'm running a table top Faerun game, in which all the players are good clerics, or neutral clerics of good deities. With one exception. The player came up with a highly entertaining concept of a half-orc cleric who worships the power of storms. His chosen deity is Istishia. (I tried to get him to go towards Valkur, but he liked the elemental god more.) He wants to give up turning for some other ability. He hasn't come up with anything in particular, but is willing to accept what I might offer him. His rationale for such is that Istishia doesn't really care about undead. They aren't a priority for him, unlike Kelemvor, or Lathander. My counter argument is that undeath represents stagnation, which Isitishia is against, but even I admit that it is a weak point. I don't mind opening up the possibility of other players wanting to drop undead turning so long as not everyone does. (And there are some who won't.) I thought about offering him one of the domain feats from Complete Champion, but that seems kind of weak in comparison. I thought about offering him Sacred Vitality and/or Spurn Death's Touch from Libris Mortis, since they are 'flavored' for use against undead. I would like some ideas, if anyone has any. Should I tell him to suck it up, and keep turning? Try one of the ideas I mentioned above? Or something else entirely? With a whole party of clerics, not everyone need to be able to turn. But what other choice do I have?
Fabius Maximus 03-03-08, 12:48 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantClasses.htm Look at the class feature variant. The Planar Banishment variant would fit a cleric of Istishia very well.
Soltares 03-03-08, 12:55 PM	Usually Turn Undead is replaced in Alternate Class Features with some other sort of Turn / Rebuke (Dragons, Vermin, etc.). If the Cleric doesn't already have the Water Domain, the Turn / Rebuke Fire / Water creatures ability of that Domain seems like an obvious choice. Turn / Rebuke Sea Creatures could also be an option (or just Wild Empathy with sea creatures and the ability to speak Aquan?). Other options would include the ability to Spontaneously cast spells of the Water Domain (in addition to Cure or Inflict spells, depending on his alignment), or a Water Breathing ability that can affect himself or others, in 10 minutes / level, divided out as he chooses. If he's more militant in mind, the 'punishing force of the waves' sort of person, perhaps he could get some daily uses of a Smite power (equal to his Wis or Cha modifier +1 / day) in place of his Turn / Rebuke power. Or he could be all about the 'cleansing / purifying / life-giving power of the sea' and have a Lay On Hands ability or a healing touch that allows a new save vs. poison, disease or certain other conditions (stunned, nauseated, sickened). Turn / Rebuke is a powerful ability, and fuels a lot of feats. Consider having whatever power replaces it be usable a similar amount of times per day, able to be modified by Extra Turning (even if, like a Smite attack or a Lay on Hands effect, it isn't 'turning'), and usable to fuel the various Divine Feats. He'll still be 'channeling' power, in this case elemental power, so there's no reason that he couldn't channel this elemental power to fuel the various Divine Feats, otherwise the ability to replace Turn / Rebuke should be darn spiffy if it's not just replacing Turn / Rebuke, but also all of the feats and abilities that can be powered off of Turn / Rebuke! In this sort of instance, the Smite-variant would be usable as many times as Turn could normally be used, Extra 'Turning' could be purchased to get more Smites, and the Smites could be used to fuel a Divine Feat. A standard 'Smite' would be +Cha bonus to attack and +level to damage and, depending on the rationale, it might be more or less effective against water or fire creatures. (Or completely ineffective against Water creatures or even aquatic creatures, but extra effective against Fire creatures, causing them to save at Fort DC 15 or take 1d6 damage the following round as well.) The 'Lay on Hands' variant might only cure hit point damage equal to the casters Cha or Wis modifier with a touch, but allow touches / day equal to the number of Turn attempts that caster would have. Each touch would also allow another save (at the same DC as the original effect) to resist or break free from poison, disease or a stunned, dazed, nauseated or sickened condition, 'washing away' the infirmity. Finally, another variant might be usable as many times as Turning attempts, and Summon a Small Water Elemental for rounds equal to his Charisma Modifier (or level, or whatever). At 4th level, he can burn 2 attempts to Summon a Medium Water Elemental, at 8th level, 3 attempts for a Large Water Elemental, at 12th level, 4 attempts for a Huge Water Elemental, at 16th level, 5 attempts for a Greater Water Elemental, and at 20th level he can use 6 of his daily 'turn' attempts (assuming he has that many!) to Summon an Elder Water Elemental.
wizzzzzard 03-03-08, 02:27 PM	Fabius: That's a great idea! Thanks! I don't have Unearthed Arcana, but I can get it from someone. Soltares: Thanks for your input too. The character can already spontaneously cast to the Storm domain, so adding water could work. I am adding as a possilbe bonus feat, the choice of one of the domain feats at either 5th or 10th level. Probably 5th.
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 04:10 PM	If the Cleric doesn't already have the Water Domain, the Turn / Rebuke Fire / Water creatures ability of that Domain seems like an obvious choice. Turn / Rebuke Sea Creatures could also be an option (or just Wild Empathy with sea creatures and the ability to speak Aquan?). -Agreed. This was what I was going to suggest.
Diffan 03-03-08, 07:22 PM	Has your player realized the versatility of turning/rebuking undead? Besides what it was designed to do, there are SO many alternatives to using his attempts. Divine Might, Divine Vigor, Divine Metamagic [quicken spell], ALL of the Domain Feats from Complete Champion are good posibilities. My cleric of Tyr doesnt even use his attempts to turn undead, they're just there to quicken two of his spells per day and later on with Extra Turning, can take advantage of things like Law Domain or Divine Might. Getting rid of his turning/rebuking ability severly limits him to what he can/can't do and theres not too many AFC (alternate class features) that can compare to that ability. -just my :twocents: