Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Philalexandros 05-03-07, 10:18 PM	Is it possible for one to be cast on a person rather than a place? That is, for it to be anchored to an individual, and for it to move about with him/her (and thus affect a 100 foot radius centered on said person)?
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 11:05 PM	-As there is absolutely no precident for this what so ever, I am going to have to say no. That sounds more like a Spell Mantle.
Philalexandros 05-03-07, 11:09 PM	I ask merely because nothing about the seed description says it could not be done. I'm not questioning whether it has been done before (I knew it hadn't)... but whether it is "mechanically" possible. Admittedly, though, it would take a rather vain individual to do such a thing. ;) Any details/mechanics on a Spell Mantle you could share, incidentally? Thanks, btw, LK :)
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 11:16 PM	-I just mentioned that there is no precident, because, given 20,000+ years, it's probably safe to say that if it hasn't been done yet, it can't. ;) -Here's why it shouldn't be possible. True High Magic Mythals do not corrupt like Wizardly Mythals, because of the slight differences in the two. Wizardly Mythals are sort of like batteries. The initial casting give it it's "charge", and when the "charge" begins running low, or fade away all together, the Mythal becomes corrupted. True High Magic Mythals are "powered" by the life of the Elven community it protects, as well as nature in and around it. It seems plausible, then, that the Mythal needs to form some kind of special relationship with the nature in and around it. Were it to be constantly moving, at best, such a bond would be difficult to establish. -As for those spell mantles. The specifics are foggy, but they are the "layers" of magics that a person places on their person to augment themselves. Very prevalent in Netheril.
Philalexandros 05-03-07, 11:19 PM	That sounds plausible enough, LK. It's too bad we don't have any rules on Spell Mantles and such. I wonder if the Mythal seed would work as a platform or as a measuring stick... Eh, just wondering out loud. Nothing to see here. ;)
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 11:24 PM	It's too bad we don't have any rules on Spell Mantles and such. -See Pg. 4 of Netheril: Encyclopedia Arcana. What's there is not exactly how I remembered them, but they are indeed Mantles. They are more akin to magical cloaks...I, for whatever reason, was thinking that they were intangible.
Philalexandros 05-04-07, 12:00 AM	Yeah... I was looking for something different. I might end up ruling on the side of a limited application of the Mythal seed.
Stigger 05-04-07, 01:28 AM	Tie them to the life force of the target, with a duration of the targets life, and I'd say you could do it. The effort would be more than it would be worth most likely, given the probability of the DC being incredible without things like additional casters, but if you could get your spellcraft modifier high enough, you could conceivably pull off a fairly powerful effect. It would hurt, with the probable addition of backlash, but it would be worth it in all likelihood. Barring that, you could always stick it on a mobile item of some variety and use it that way for the same end effectively. I think the mantles you're thinking of LK are the ones detailed in Secrets of the Magister, with the effects varying with the level of the caster... think it was a base 6th level spell back in 2e.
Terraneaux 05-04-07, 03:18 AM	You can change the area to personal. This is nice because you can set up a bunch of vanguard spells that are always on for you and then cannot be dispelled. Of course, the deleterious effects of you having that much magical energy flowing through your body are up to your dm.
GothicDan 05-04-07, 08:12 AM	I know the Mantle spell comes up in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical.
lavekkia 05-04-07, 01:23 PM	Is it possible for one to be cast on a person rather than a place? That is, for it to be anchored to an individual, and for it to move about with him/her (and thus affect a 100 foot radius centered on said person)? Yes and no. Yes you can use the mythal seed changing the range to personal and adding whatever powers you want. You should not use the anchored and capstone anymore (the rules allow this but as a DM i would prohibit it). No, the epic spell would NOT be a mythal , only an epic spell which uses the mythal seed. See this thread: there are examples of spell mantles that use the mythal seed and other non standard application of it. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=548975
Karsus the Mad 05-04-07, 08:41 PM	Is it possible for one to be cast on a person rather than a place? That is, for it to be anchored to an individual, and for it to move about with him/her (and thus affect a 100 foot radius centered on said person)? Yes. If you look at the area, it specifies 'emanation'. An emanation, by definition, must come from a specific point. The seed description notes that you choose any point. It does not however make note that the emanation is stationary or unmovable. Choosing yourself as the point of emanation by default dictates that it would move with you. Otherwise if it was merely a stationary point in space, mythals around the planet would be shifting continuously as the planet turned;) That's my logical approach anyway. Flavor wise, I'd say no. A mythal can't be attached to people. However, note that the mythal seed is itself not a mythal. It's merely an epic seed, one of many building blocks used to create epic spells. -As there is absolutely no precident for this what so ever, I am going to have to say no. That sounds more like a Spell Mantle. There is however a back cross edition link thingy (can't think of the proper term) between mythals (wizardly ones at least) and mantles. 2e CEoE mentions that Mythanthor utilized a city wide mantle to create Myth Drannor's wizardly mythal. 3.5 LEoF specifically notes that Mythanthor used an epic spell utilizing the mythal seed. For all we know, true mantles of old (the really powerful buggers) were merely localized, personal epic matrixes utilizing the mythal seed, with other seeds tossed into the mix (ward and reflect for example). That's how I see it anyway. At least until a more efficient method in epic spell rules becomes available with which to more accurately portray spell mantles.
Krash 05-05-07, 09:59 PM	Dragon magazine's demise means that I can't answer your question. I'll wait till the details of the DI are announced. -- George Krashos
GothicDan 05-05-07, 10:04 PM	Darn it!!!
The Nelluonkkar 05-06-07, 12:07 AM	That sounds plausible enough, LK. It's too bad we don't have any rules on Spell Mantles and such. I wonder if the Mythal seed would work as a platform or as a measuring stick... Eh, just wondering out loud. Nothing to see here. ;) Actually, according to Lost Empires of Faerūn, there are rules for spell mantles: they're contingent spells that can be triggered even if the contingency that they're hinged on are not triggered (it's a feat listed at the bottom of p. 112). I won't go into the full list of details but you have to have Craft Contingent Spell as one of the prerequisites. EDIT: As an addendum, I honestly can't say that I'm all that keen on it as a translation of the old 2nd ed. mantles but it could be argued that the old Cormanthyran spell mantles were probably a tad unbalancing (as described in one of the Dragon annuals, I think; my copy of said magazine is buried somewhere under a pile of others).
Stigger 05-06-07, 02:16 AM	Unfortunately those mantles in LEoF were absolutely nothing like what had come before lorewise. That and the whole being crap part... an Epic Seed would have been a much better idea.
Krash 05-06-07, 06:14 AM	Indeed.:D -- George Krashos
Karsus the Mad 05-06-07, 10:46 AM	Dragon magazine's demise means that I can't answer your question. I'll wait till the details of the DI are announced. -- George Krashos :allalone: Indeed. -- George Krashos :plotting:
Philalexandros 05-06-07, 01:07 PM	Dragon magazine's demise means that I can't answer your question. I'll wait till the details of the DI are announced. -- George Krashos Noooooooooooo! Tentative estimate of waiting period, perhaps? :D
Lord Karsus 05-06-07, 05:38 PM	There is however a back cross edition link thingy (can't think of the proper term) between mythals (wizardly ones at least) and mantles. 2e CEoE mentions that Mythanthor utilized a city wide mantle to create Myth Drannor's wizardly mythal. 3.5 LEoF specifically notes that Mythanthor used an epic spell utilizing the mythal seed. For all we know, true mantles of old (the really powerful buggers) were merely localized, personal epic matrixes utilizing the mythal seed, with other seeds tossed into the mix (ward and reflect for example). That's how I see it anyway. At least until a more efficient method in epic spell rules becomes available with which to more accurately portray spell mantles. -Don'cha love edition changes? ;)
Karsus the Mad 05-06-07, 07:31 PM	-Don'cha love edition changes? ;) I do indeed!:cool: It allows me to do things completely unorthadox;) mwahahahahaha! really tho', I do think it imperative that people understand the difference between mythals (true, wizardly, semi, etc) and Epic Spells utilizing the mythal seed. Too many people seem to think that the mythal seed equates into a mythal and that it can only be used for mythals....that's simply limited thinking. It's an epic spell seed, nothing more. It was bad wording on the part of the designer (everything else is WONDERFUL!!!!), but that's expected as it was designed to explain ancient techniques. It was designed in a period aspect and not a general aspect.
Lord Karsus 05-06-07, 07:57 PM	-The Mythal Epic seed certainly makes me angry as well. What would be a better name? (Mind you, I don't have the ELH, so I don't know exactly what the seed does.) Field Seed? Mantle Seed? Boundary Seed?
Krash 05-06-07, 07:59 PM	Noooooooooooo! Tentative estimate of waiting period, perhaps? :D Hmm, 2010?:D ;) I'll hopefully know more after GEN-CON. I plan to buttonhole some of the WotC staff there and see what the lowdown is. Dragon were interested, let's hope the DI will be. -- George Krashos
Philalexandros 05-06-07, 08:07 PM	Gracias!
Karsus the Mad 05-06-07, 08:11 PM	-The Mythal Epic seed certainly makes me angry as well. What would be a better name? (Mind you, I don't have the ELH, so I don't know exactly what the seed does.) Field Seed? Mantle Seed? Boundary Seed? Spell Matrix seed Matrix seed Mantle seed Weave binding
Karsus the Mad 05-06-07, 08:23 PM	Hmm, 2010?:D ;) I'll hopefully know more after GEN-CON. I plan to buttonhole some of the WotC staff there and see what the lowdown is. Dragon were interested, let's hope the DI will be. -- George Krashos I so love you Krash....;)
Lord Karsus 05-06-07, 08:43 PM	Matrix seed Mantle seed -I do like those two. :)
Karsus the Mad 05-06-07, 08:48 PM	-I do like those two. :) There is a homemade matrix seed, made by my good friend lavekkia (genius the bugger is), over on the epic boards. I'll have to find the link. Epic Seed Emporium.
Stigger 05-07-07, 12:24 PM	Handy thread that one... I'm pretty fond of the Force seed, to an almost obscene degree really.
lavekkia 05-07-07, 02:09 PM	Now you are making me :embarrass :blush: :D For the psionic lovers (almost no one here i suppose ;) )i have reworked the good old Udoxia seed and i have almost completed a Jhaamdath epic power. One week and i ll try to post them. EDIT: since the post seems rather [irrelevant let me explain: the Udoxia seed is based on the Mythal seed. Some of the components could be refitted to the original mythal seed to expand it further. (Namely the Semisentinet component and the Contingent components)
Evlreala 06-03-07, 02:44 PM	-I just mentioned that there is no precident, because, given 20,000+ years, it's probably safe to say that if it hasn't been done yet, it can't. ;) By this logic, no new spells can ever be researched, no unique items could ever be created ever again, and 'modern science' is an impossibility. Nuff said. -Here's why it shouldn't be possible. True High Magic Mythals do not corrupt like Wizardly Mythals, because of the slight differences in the two. Wizardly Mythals are sort of like batteries. The initial casting give it it's "charge", and when the "charge" begins running low, or fade away all together, the Mythal becomes corrupted. True High Magic Mythals are "powered" by the life of the Elven community it protects, as well as nature in and around it. It seems plausible, then, that the Mythal needs to form some kind of special relationship with the nature in and around it. Were it to be constantly moving, at best, such a bond would be difficult to establish. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe the first mythals were created using 'true high magic.' As a matter of fact, in "Elminster in Myth Dranor" Elminster helps create the first mythal at myth dranor using 'true huigh magic' and it later currupts. Also referencing the previously mentioned book, the initial formula they were trying to figure out describes that it is a self sustaining magical effect of enormous magical power. Keywords being self sustaining. The only reason why it shouldn't be possible, as far as I can see are three fold. 1) Divine intervention 2) Lack of PC/NPC help (as putting up a mythal takes several hundred mages with a good portion being able to weild 'true high magic.' or 3) DM descression. IMO
Lord Karsus 06-03-07, 06:20 PM	By this logic, no new spells can ever be researched, no unique items could ever be created ever again, and 'modern science' is an impossibility. Nuff said. -True enough. This is Elven High Magic we are talking about, though. Once something is "set", that's all. How many religious rituals were created years ago, and afterwards, a sort of self-imposed moratorium was placed on develping new ones? Lots. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe the first mythals were created using 'true high magic.' -Though canon doesn't implicitly state this, it is, I think, fairly obvious. You can't have a generic until you have an original. As a matter of fact, in "Elminster in Myth Dranor" Elminster helps create the first mythal at myth dranor using 'true huigh magic' and it later currupts. -The Mythal laid at Myth Drannor was a Wizardly Mythal, and not a True High Magic Mythal. Also referencing the previously mentioned book, the initial formula they were trying to figure out describes that it is a self sustaining magical effect of enormous magical power. Keywords being self sustaining. The only reason why it shouldn't be possible, as far as I can see are three fold. -Take a look at the entry on Mythals in my Elves of Faerūn. I touch on the subject somewhat.
Karsus the Mad 06-03-07, 07:11 PM	-True enough. This is Elven High Magic we are talking about, though. Once something is "set", that's all. How many religious rituals were created years ago, and afterwards, a sort of self-imposed moratorium was placed on develping new ones? Lots. Which has demonstrated new rituals every so often. I don't think elven high magic would have had a ritual for destroying undersea Netherese colonies by transmuting their glass domes into combustable substances that burst into flames upon contact with water eons before Netheril even existed. Nor do I think there was a Sundering ritual before the elves felt they needed a homeland of their own on Faerun. While many rituals are generic and can be considered "set", many others are one time instances requiring specific circumstances to bring about their creation and use. This at the very least hints at a modicum of "research and development" in High Magic.
Lord Karsus 06-03-07, 11:20 PM	-Name me the last Elven High Magic spell that was researched and cast.
Evlreala 06-04-07, 02:11 AM	-Name me the last Elven High Magic spell that was researched and cast. Sure, if you would cite me every other incident Elven High Magic has been used or researched previous to the last. Go. What does that have to do with how often new magic is researched? According to the sourcebooks, Elven High Magic is still around, and is still quite able to be used. The only reason why it is not a widly spread practice, is due to the lack of 'suitable' students to teach it too.
Lord Karsus 06-04-07, 10:22 AM	Sure, if you would cite me every other incident Elven High Magic has been used or researched previous to the last. Go. -We don't know exactly how old the Elven High Magic rituals are. As KtM was implying, the spells could have been researched before the specific castings. Elves need a new homeland? Elves reseach and develop The Sundering. On the other hand, the rituals might have been developed and researched long before the casting of the spell, which is the camp I am in.
Alediran 06-04-07, 10:31 AM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe the first mythals were created using 'true high magic.' As a matter of fact, in "Elminster in Myth Dranor" Elminster helps create the first mythal at myth dranor using 'true huigh magic' and it later currupts. Also referencing the previously mentioned book, the initial formula they were trying to figure out describes that it is a self sustaining magical effect of enormous magical power. Keywords being self sustaining. The only reason why it shouldn't be possible, as far as I can see are three fold. Myth Drannor's Mythal wasn't the first, there where already powerful True Mythals still working until 1373/74 like the Dracorage Mythal and the Waymeet, the first made by Elven High Mages during the Time of Dragons and the second was, acording to The Last Mythal, the last mythal created by Aryvaandar's High Mages. Those two, being True Mythals where perpetual and never corrupted. Mythanthor, the creator of Myth Drannor's Mythal lost the ability to cast High Magic during an accident, what he created was a Wizard's Mythal.
Evlreala 06-04-07, 04:55 PM	Myth Drannor's Mythal wasn't the first, there where already powerful True Mythals still working until 1373/74 like the Dracorage Mythal and the Waymeet, the first made by Elven High Mages during the Time of Dragons and the second was, acording to The Last Mythal, the last mythal created by Aryvaandar's High Mages. Those two, being True Mythals where perpetual and never corrupted. Mythanthor, the creator of Myth Drannor's Mythal lost the ability to cast High Magic during an accident, what he created was a Wizard's Mythal. I stand corrected. ^_^
Evlreala 06-04-07, 05:07 PM	-We don't know exactly how old the Elven High Magic rituals are. As KtM was implying, the spells could have been researched before the specific castings. Elves need a new homeland? Elves reseach and develop The Sundering. On the other hand, the rituals might have been developed and researched long before the casting of the spell, which is the camp I am in. And my point, is that as old as Elven High Magic is, can you honestly tell me you know every single Elven High Magic spell? Can you tell me that there will never be an original thought amungst the elves ever again? New, unique experences will not ever open an elves mind to a new idea. Nobody will ever think differently then an elf that has lived before? New ideas are based off of perspective. I submit to you, for as long as elves live, and as few as they successfuly concieve children (pure elf, not half elven), that though their experience is vast and their wisdom (as a race) is grand, their perspective is stale compaired to other races who see the world through other eyes. I am also basing this on their racial mentality, for the record, as well as the element of chaos and change. Ten thousand years ago, an elf thought of idea X for situation X if it were ever to happen. Today situation X happened, but the variables changed. What then?
Lord Karsus 06-04-07, 05:29 PM	And my point, is that as old as Elven High Magic is, can you honestly tell me you know every single Elven High Magic spell? -As far as the ones that have been published, yes. Can you tell me that there will never be an original thought amungst the elves ever again? New, unique experences will not ever open an elves mind to a new idea. Nobody will ever think differently then an elf that has lived before? -Traditional Sun Elves, of which most Selu'Taar are, base what they do from tradition and the past, rather than experimentation, trial and error. Again, we have no records of any Elven High Magic rituals being researched in thousands of years. The last one I can recall would be the Telmiirkara Neshyrr, which was researched and first developed at least over few thousand years ago, in Yuirshanyaar.
Evlreala 06-04-07, 05:44 PM	-As far as the ones that have been published, yes. I didn't ask for only the ones that were published, I asked for them all. -Traditional Sun Elves, of which most Selu'Taar are, base what they do from tradition and the past, rather than experimentation, trial and error. Again, we have no records of any Elven High Magic rituals being researched in thousands of years. The last one I can recall would be the Telmiirkara Neshyrr, which was researched and first developed at least over few thousand years ago, in Yuirshanyaar. The first part of what you said I agree with, I have bolded the part that is relevent to my argument. Not every elf thinks alike, not all will follow tradition, not all will go about doing things the same exact way as their predicessor, or fellow student, or puple. As elven culture is, most will, but theres that word again. Most. After all, advancements come from those who think in one direction and look the next. Your argument would win me over, and I would have to agree with you except for one concept. "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."
Lord Karsus 06-04-07, 06:05 PM	I didn't ask for only the ones that were published, I asked for them all. -Going on the assumption that the published High Magic rituals are the only High Magic rituals, yes. After all, advancements come from those who think in one direction and look the next. -Mainstream Elven culture, for the most part, is static. Blah, there's that 'most part' again. "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence." -I like that quote. -I guess, in the end, it comes down to what you want for your campaign.
Evlreala 06-05-07, 12:28 AM	-Going on the assumption that the published High Magic rituals are the only High Magic rituals, yes. The problem being, we don't know if the published spells are the 'only' spells. If they are, it kind of puts the rules of making new spells into the "WTF box." -Mainstream Elven culture, for the most part, is static. Blah, there's that 'most part' again. Yes, it is static, but there is a norm, just like in any culture. -I like that quote. I liked it too. ^_^ -I guess, in the end, it comes down to what you want for your campaign. Something I REALLY wish they had left in the sourcebooks... Pg. 2 PHB 2e, "Bla bla bla... DM is GOD ...Bla bla bka" (I got a bit lazy there, I REALLY dont feel like typing up an entire page... but my point is made.)
Stigger 06-05-07, 02:08 AM	They did include the DM is god rule, its just stated in a more obtuse way... both the PHB and DMG have it in there.
Evlreala 06-05-07, 02:58 PM	They did include the DM is god rule, its just stated in a more obtuse way... both the PHB and DMG have it in there. Thats my point, too many people i've played with have forgotten this rule, or simply don't recognise it because its not right in their faces. Then the DM gets frustrated. A frustrated DM is a BAD thing. ;_;
Lord Karsus 06-05-07, 03:14 PM	Then the DM gets frustrated. A frustrated DM is a BAD thing. ;_; -That's when you volunteer to buy lunch/dinner/snacks.
Evlreala 06-05-07, 03:19 PM	-That's when you volunteer to buy lunch/dinner/snacks. Did I mention my main DM happens to be my wife?
Lord Karsus 06-05-07, 03:22 PM	-Hmm...That's when you promise to spend more quality time with her? That's when you promise to watch less ESPN? That's when you promise to take out the trash? I'm done...Good luck with that one.
Stigger 06-07-07, 12:57 AM	Haven't run into that problem in years... perhaps you should suggest to the DM to emphatically read the relevant section of the books aloud before any campaigns begin and tell the little whiners to suck it up and get with the program. ;)
DyneSolweaver 06-09-07, 06:49 PM	First of all, I would like to say this is the friendliest P1551NG contest I have ever seen. I wish more Wizard forum debates could be this dignified. The Mythal at Myth Dranor was a wizard mythal because it used a 10th lvl spell instead of epic magic. Because Mythalanthar(sp) lost his ability to perform Elven High Magic. It was said that if they other elves including the Shrinshee had known that it was going to kill him they would have stopped it and used elven high magic to raise the mythal. Elven High magic and epic magic are the same thing. Elves do all epic magic by ritual in groups believing that true magic exits in communities. Epic magic exsisted at the same time as 11th and 12th lvl spells of netherial, it just wasn't used, because Epic magic was harder to pull off. At this time Epic magic was probably used by the elves as Elven High Magic. After the weave was changed and 11th and 12th lvl spells were blocked (and later 10th level spells were too), epic was the only option for greater spell effects. I think that Elven High Magic, Epic Magic, and all the other names are just different sides of the same coin. Wheither you believe it has to be in groups by really old elves, Done high on a mountain top, around a circle under the full moon, or in a lab with books spilled everywhere. Its all Epic magic, everyone each has thier own style of how it "should" be done.
XHereticX 06-09-07, 08:10 PM	First of all, I would like to say this is the friendliest P1551NG contest I have ever seen. I wish more Wizard forum debates could be this dignified. For one, this is the FR section, and we are well known for being courteous and dignified. Also, I highly doubt a mythal can be cast upon any individual person as elven high magic is a group technique and nearly always is directed at a greater picture and is often overpowered and highly uncontrollable(as the Vyashaar high mages showed with the dark disaster, the sundering of evermeet, etc). Wizardly Mythals however, most likely do not have such limitations.
Lord Karsus 06-10-07, 11:46 PM	Wizardly Mythals however, most likely do not have such limitations. -Wizardly Mythals function the same as True Mythals, only a little differently. Get it? :P First of all, I would like to say this is the friendliest P1551NG contest I have ever seen. I wish more Wizard forum debates could be this dignified. -We're a civilized bunch. I think that Elven High Magic, Epic Magic, and all the other names are just different sides of the same coin. -Yes, Elven High Magic is one form of Epic Magic. True 10+ Level magic, the magic that the Netherese used, wasn't Epic Magic, however.
danielmayer 06-12-07, 06:41 PM	If I may quote the signature one of our (Ch-Lvl-)-highest and sometimes even revered Elders: Quote: Epic Spell abuse is the direct result of poor DM management, and the spell in question should never be held legally accountable for its munchkinism So: 1) Why not having a personal mythal-based mythal-mantle, I'll call it mythantle (yeah, inventing difficult word-constructs (by the power of the same-named feat - needs many prereqs...)) 2) Why not placing some *very* interested *very*-high-level-NPCs into the game for further investigation of that powerful guy/lass who wears some higher-than-9th-level-permanent-protection/mantle? Is that power an ability like spellfire? Given by the gods? Given by genes? Perhaps cutting open that guy will reveal more.... 3) That mythantle should burn painfully into everyones true-sight-eyes or even permanently blind the poor magelings who just cast their first detect magic... :D :rolleyes: A:"aaaahhhh! I can't see anymore" PC: "what?" B:"burn the witches! they bring a curse upon our village!!!" PC -gulp- :rolleyes: Returning to arguments: Point 2) may be placed a bit funny, but it would be definately a big thing if I was DM. Epic magic is rare. Epic "permanent" magic is very, very rare, and consists mostly of old elven mythals. Epic+permanent+ personal protection is unknown... but detectable... - may all be stupid, but after abuse is only possible if DM allows... ;)
Karsus the Mad 06-12-07, 07:35 PM	If I may quote the signature one of our (Ch-Lvl-)-highest and sometimes even revered Elders: Well, you certainly know how to feed my ego. Me likey;) You wouldn't happen to want a job as a Hand? 1) Why not having a personal mythal-based mythal-mantle, I'll call it mythantle (yeah, inventing difficult word-constructs (by the power of the same-named feat - needs many prereqs...)) Actually, I created an epic spell called Karsus's Mantled Mythal. I think it's on the Epic Spell Emporium. As far as I'm aware, it was the first time the mythal seed was ever used in an epic spell to duplicate true mantles. I got a lot of heat from it tho'. Meh. I proscribe to the simple fact that the mythal seed is just that. A seed. It's one of many seeds utilized to create epic spells. epic spells by definition have no limit or dictation (other than DM discretion of course). Any limitations or dictations are, from my PoV, semantics and cultural traditions. Such as Elven High Magic. 3) That mythantle should burn painfully into everyones true-sight-eyes or even permanently blind the poor magelings who just cast their first detect magic... :D Good idea. I think I'll incorporate that into my setting. Returning to arguments: Point 2) may be placed a bit funny, but it would be definately a big thing if I was DM. Epic magic is rare. Epic "permanent" magic is very, very rare, and consists mostly of old elven mythals. Epic+permanent+ personal protection is unknown... but detectable... - may all be stupid, but after abuse is only possible if DM allows... ;) Thus the reason why I laugh when someone tells me Epic Magic is "broken";)
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 07:49 PM	Personally, I think there really is only one Elven High Magic Ritual. The Elves just like to pretend there is more to impress non-Elves. :P The ritual is called "Please, Corellon? PLEEEEEEEEASE?!", and it begins by low chanting and builds in volume until it is a steady obnoxious whine, at which point Corellon grants their request just to shut them up. Think of it as a devine 10th level wish spell, requiring circle magic, and it explains everything. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
XHereticX 06-12-07, 08:08 PM	Personally, I think there really is only one Elven High Magic Ritual. The Elves just like to pretend there is more to impress non-Elves. :P The ritual is called "Please, Corellon? PLEEEEEEEEASE?!", and it begins by low chanting and builds in volume until it is a steady obnoxious whine, at which point Corellon grants their request just to shut them up. Think of it as a devine 10th level wish spell, requiring circle magic, and it explains everything. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. That is bascically how I interpret high magic in whole. Divinely granted arcane magic.
Zsych 06-17-07, 04:56 AM	I would think, as KtM says, a mythal focussed on a person should be possible. If its dependent on energy from the life around it, then perhaps some limited life-drain ability should be added to it(doesn't seem to need much). ... what would you want with an actual mythal on a person though(except maybe to make something like a king, more powerful and a greater symbol for the people)
Lord Karsus 06-17-07, 05:56 PM	-While such a thing is possible, it is not very likely to ever happen. Remember, the Elves of Faerūn are a social bunch. Most Elven societies are very similar to Chinese Communism. The emphasis is almost always on the community, rather than the individual. Elven High Magi are not going to consume so much energy weaving a Mythal "on" a single individual.
Karsus the Mad 06-17-07, 08:53 PM	-While such a thing is possible, it is not very likely to ever happen. Remember, the Elves of Faerūn are a social bunch. Most Elven societies are very similar to Chinese Communism. The emphasis is almost always on the community, rather than the individual. Elven High Magi are not going to consume so much energy weaving a Mythal "on" a single individual. But humans would:D
longarm 06-17-07, 11:18 PM	Hmm, this has been a fairly interesting discussion. The truth is the very first thing I thought when I saw the mythal seed wasn't oh cool mythals but, oh cool mantles... The architecture of the seed perfectly suited for that and it's not even an abusive reading of epic spell creation rules to make such things. The biggest problem is that really the cost calculations as presented by WotC for adding powers to a mythal are a bit off to me. It's pretty easy to make a very good mantle, but what's even worse is you can shorten the casting time to say a standard action; and still put a few decent vanguard spells in the mythal and still have a DC that is easy to reach at low epic numbers and turn a whole company of foot soldiers into an artillery unit blasting away with whatever flavor of spell you like (this is not meant to be elven flavor, I'm just pointing out that you can do a lot more abusive things with the mythal seed...the shadow seed also allows for abuses like crazy and a lot of lazy shortcutting in epic spell creation). Really the more I think about it, mantles as invisioned by Ed in his books involving elves of Cormanthyr (and also the Archanists and to a lesser extent the Magelords) resemble personal mythals as imagined by the mythal seed. I can see why they were removed from the rules set; however, as wizards are for the most part quite hard enough to kill for non-wizards without mantles making them nigh invincible. Onto my thoughts on the EHM... I tend to regard the rituals presented in C:EoE as mostly the basic set of rituals that a circle of high mages has access to (setting aside the more powerful rituals of myriad). Other than that I'd say they spend a decent amount of time in spell research and development (both at wizardly and epic levels). The reason we here so little about this, is that frankly the only events that make time lines and summaries are the ones involving wars, founding dates of cities, and epic disasters on a monumental scale. The elven high mages, who are mostly from Evermeet after Cormanthyr falls, haven't engage in a real war, like the bad old days, since the fall of Cormanthyr. I see most of their recent ritual development as being single use things that don't fall under the category of wars; diverting a river here, bringing about a new forest there, raising a minor mythal with a few spells over a great house, forming a new system of enchanted lights for a village, ect. In Cormanthyr's time line high magic gets a mention every so often when it's used in major wars or to route an orc horde, or imprisoning Moander (they used high-magic to shatter his avatar as well IIRC), but again peaceful uses of magic, even peaceful uses of high magic are pretty much ignored. All that said I'd also like to point out that many of the rituals we know of with non-warlike properties also never receive a single mention in history as to a particular time they are used. With the return... well I think we may hold hopes of getting more lore about the EHM, as I'd guess there are novels in the works set in recaptured Cormanthyr (and after the fighting dies down I suspect some will relocate there). I still don't know how I feel about retaking Myth Dranor... I don't mind that it was retaken, but I don't know; the vision of 5000 elves marching in formation... I can't shake the image that they resembled less the armies of Evermeet and more the armies Aryvandaar... perhaps it's only me. Oh also while strictly speaking not an Elven High Magic spell, the finale of the Blackstaff novel has a ritual that I reckon should look very much like the Elaorman Ritual of the Myriad, which I would guess served as part of the basis for the epic spell cast. -Longarm
Lord Karsus 06-18-07, 12:31 AM	But humans would:D -Good thing Humans can't cast Elven High Magic. (I know, according to the rules they can, but use your head!)
Karsus the Mad 06-19-07, 12:20 PM	-Good thing Humans can't cast Elven High Magic. (I know, according to the rules they can, but use your head!) Good thing mythals aren't exclusive to elven high magic:D
Lord Karsus 06-19-07, 02:20 PM	Good thing mythals aren't exclusive to elven high magic:D -Real Mythals are. True Mythals can only be created by Elves. Wizardly Mythals are cheap imitations. :P
Karsus the Mad 06-19-07, 02:37 PM	-Real Mythals are. True Mythals can only be created by Elves. Wizardly Mythals are cheap imitations. :P Thankfully "true", "wizardly" and "near" are mere cultural semantics that have absolutely no effect on the validity or functionality of mythals:P
Lord Karsus 06-19-07, 02:45 PM	Thankfully "true", "wizardly" and "near" are mere cultural semantics that have absolutely no effect on the validity or functionality of mythals:P -Actually, no. True Mythals and Wizardly Mythals are slightly different things. The two are created differently (the former being created by Elven High Magic, and the latter being created using mundane and Epic Magic), and function slightly differently. Wizardly Mythals are "powered" by the initial casting of the spell, and slowly but surely "unwind" as time passes. True Mythals last as long as there is "healthy life" in and around them. See the article on Mythals in Elves of Faerūn.
Karsus the Mad 06-19-07, 03:22 PM	-Actually, no. True Mythals and Wizardly Mythals are slightly different things. The two are created differently (the former being created by Elven High Magic, and the latter being created using mundane and Epic Magic), and function slightly differently. Wizardly Mythals are "powered" by the initial casting of the spell, and slowly but surely "unwind" as time passes. True Mythals last as long as there is "healthy life" in and around them. See the article on Mythals in Elves of Faerūn. ???Actually, yes. LEoF page 45 Any permanent magical ward or field raised via epic magic can be considered a mythal. Some scholars draw distinctions between true mythals, wizard mythals, and near-mythals, but the differences among these effects are largely based on semantics and tradition. Mythals developed in accordance with the teachings of elven high magic may look different from wards or barriers based on other traditions, but they are functionally equivalent. The only real distinction is that the great elven mythals of old (true mythals) were the first ones raised in Faerun. They were ambitious and enduring, and they often covered sizable areas. I fail to see how my statement of Thankfully "true", "wizardly" and "near" are mere cultural semantics that have absolutely no effect on the validity or functionality of mythals is incorrect. Regardless of creation technique, a mythal is still a mythal. That's what I'm saying, in case you misunderstood me.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-19-07, 04:22 PM	Is it possible for one to be cast on a person rather than a place? That is, for it to be anchored to an individual, and for it to move about with him/her (and thus affect a 100 foot radius centered on said person)? In the recent Cale book, the power of a mythal was transfered into Cale's sword. So I'd say almost anything is possible.
Lord Karsus 06-19-07, 10:05 PM	???Actually, yes. -Don't make me hit you. You know I have no problems hitting myself! :( I fail to see how my statement...is incorrect. Regardless of creation technique, a mythal is still a mythal. That's what I'm saying, in case you misunderstood me. -They are both classified as Mythals, yes. The 'Functionality', that is, how the two function, is different, though. In the recent Cale book, the power of a mythal was transfered into Cale's sword. So I'd say almost anything is possible. -If I recall correctly, that was a mythallar, not a Mythal.
Karsus the Mad 06-20-07, 06:46 AM	-Don't make me hit you. You know I have no problems hitting myself! :( I was wondering where I got this black eye:embarrass -They are both classified as Mythals, yes. The 'Functionality', that is, how the two function, is different, though. Well, I never said how they function was the same, now did I? Only that they're functionally equivalent; Ie: regardless of creation method and technique, they serve equivalent functions and purpose. Silly silly LK:P
danielmayer 06-20-07, 03:44 PM	Quite nice soliloguy, your harebrained trinity :D In fact, only elves claim that "High Magic" is more, better, higher, more beautiful, sanctified and better magic. my mythals never get corrupted.... never had such a stupid thing like an anchor in my magic... my magic is for eternity :ayyyy!:
Lord Karsus 06-20-07, 06:05 PM	I was wondering where I got this black eye:embarrass -It was worth it. :weep: Well, I never said how they function was the same, now did I? Only that they're functionally equivalent; Ie: regardless of creation method and technique, they serve equivalent functions and purpose. Silly silly LK:P -Wouldn't you consider how they functioned part of their 'functionality'? In this case, obviously not, or we wouldn't be punching each other. But, if it wasn't obvious, I did. Quite nice soliloguy, your harebrained trinity :D -Harebrained...Why we oughta! In fact, only elves claim that "High Magic" is more, better, higher, more beautiful, sanctified and better magic. -Well, it kinda is. ;) ]
Karsus the Mad 06-20-07, 07:43 PM	-Wouldn't you consider how they functioned part of their 'functionality'? In this case, obviously not, or we wouldn't be punching each other. But, if it wasn't obvious, I did.No, because the context of their explaination in current (and valid) context defines "how". "functionality" is dependent upon mechanics. Mythals, regardless of method, are functionally equal. It means the same game mechanics are used to define positives and negatives. Anything outside game mechanics are in-game representations of cultural and traditional methods. Otherwise known as semantics. As I said from the beginning. Whether your elf chose a more stable method of creating a mythal than that Netherese chap is meaningless. Both use the same epic spell seed, both have the choice of using the same mitigating factors. The only difference is that one chose NOT to include a mitigating factor.
GothicDan 06-20-07, 08:06 PM	I think it should be reflected, in-game mechanics, when manifestations of magic specifically DO or do NOT have certain 'options' built in. For example, what if it was intrinsically built into the nature of Elven High Magic that they HAD to be Rituals of Solitude, Compliment, or Myriad (1, 9, or 13 casters)? This is what 2E said. Then this should have been written, RAW, into the descriptions of Elven uses of Epic Seeds. It would probably have taken almost as much room to talk about all of these specific modifications to base Elven High Magic utilizing Epic magic, as it would have to have simply replicated the old system. WotC chose to do neither. For things in which there's a lot of personal choice and flexibility, this would have been defined, but Elven High Magic Rituals are almost impossible to significantly alter or research anew (otherwise all of those casters wouldn't have sacrificed themselves).
Karsus the Mad 06-20-07, 08:14 PM	I think it should be reflected, in-game mechanics, when manifestations of magic specifically DO or do NOT have certain 'options' built in. Ditto, which I'm currently attempting to do. Doesn't change the facts of my statement. For example, what if it was intrinsically built into the nature of Elven High Magic that they HAD to be Rituals of Solitude, Compliment, or Myriad (1, 9, or 13 casters)? This is what 2E said. Those are semantics, which even CEoE states. It gave in-game PoV's, and what little out-of-game facts it gave it specified as applying to any kind of mythal. Then this should have been written, RAW, into the descriptions of Elven uses of Epic Seeds. I agree completely, regardless of previous Lore. It would probably have taken almost as much room to talk about all of these specific modifications to base Elven High Magic utilizing Epic magic, as it would have to have simply replicated the old system. WotC chose to do neither. For things in which there's a lot of personal choice and flexibility, this would have been defined, but Elven High Magic Rituals are almost impossible to significantly alter or research anew (otherwise all of those casters wouldn't have sacrificed themselves) I agree with this simply due to my dislike of "genericizing" (real word?) anything. That which is unique in spirit should be unique in representation.
XHereticX 06-20-07, 08:19 PM	-While such a thing is possible, it is not very likely to ever happen. Remember, the Elves of Faerūn are a social bunch. Most Elven societies are very similar to Chinese Communism. The emphasis is almost always on the community, rather than the individual. Elven High Magi are not going to consume so much energy weaving a Mythal "on" a single individual. Nah, the elves of Faerun remind me more of those earthies living in Missouri than chinese communists (believe me I know, I am chinese). They don't live under an autocratic ruling council, don't have a very centralized government, and don't put too much emphasis on weapon and arms development. They just want to be left alone dancing in their little circles in the woods. If you provoke them they will attack with suprising vengence.
Lord Karsus 06-20-07, 10:46 PM	Nah, the elves of Faerun remind me more of those earthies living in Missouri than chinese communists (believe me I know, I am chinese). They don't live under an autocratic ruling council, don't have a very centralized government, and don't put too much emphasis on weapon and arms development. They just want to be left alone dancing in their little circles in the woods. If you provoke them they will attack with suprising vengence. -I was really talking more about pure political ideology, and not really how said ideology is actually carried out.
XHereticX 06-20-07, 10:48 PM	-I was really talking more about pure political ideology, and not really how said ideology is actually carried out. The elves hardly follow the "one china", "one race" type thing that my country does. The chinese communists seem very LN to me, unlike the generally CG elves.
Lord Karsus 06-20-07, 10:51 PM	The elves hardly follow the "one china", "one race" type thing that my country does. The chinese communists seem very LN to me, unlike the generally CG elves. -The specific ideology that I pointed out- the quasi-Confucian idea that the individual is part of the whole, and that the whole matters more than the individual- is very Elf-like.
XHereticX 06-20-07, 11:02 PM	-The specific ideology that I pointed out- the quasi-Confucian idea that the individual is part of the whole, and that the whole matters more than the individual- is very Elf-like. Hmm, I never noticed the elves were so hive-minded. You do make a good point though, but there are profound differences as the elves value personal identity and freedom greatly whie confucianism conscribes to doctrine and moral principle above all else, valuing only the being's part in society and not regarding self if it means making the being a little bit more perfect.
GothicDan 06-20-07, 11:38 PM	Part of that respect for individuality generally is associated with a certain amount of empathy, which promotes unity. Though among Sun Elven lore, I tried to explain the way this subrace views such things. I put forth the idea that they think, since Corellon granted them such freedom, that it is a waste of his gift not to use that freedom for each elf to make choices. To be lacksadaiscal with that freedom (such as many non-Suns do) is to be irreverent of this gift. Thus, each Sun Elf is utilizing their freedom of choice in a way they feel is the best way possible.
Stigger 06-21-07, 09:24 PM	Largely, what KtM said about Mythals is where I tend to come down about them... Wizardly, High Magic, whatever... no real functional/practical difference between them on a mechanical level if you're trying to build one from scratch.
godbeepit 06-22-07, 12:00 AM	Hmm... I'm new to FR (only have FRCS and for just 6 months now) and I just read the history of Netheril from that old boxed set. And I must say, at first I didn't think Karsus was all that crazy. Power-hungry to be sure, but still just as sane as the other Netherese (however sane that is). Now, I see how wrong I was. Silly me. :P
Lord Karsus 06-23-07, 12:03 AM	-I/We already mentioned that I'm/We're not crazy. Right Karsus?
Zsych 06-23-07, 04:00 AM	If the existing Mythal building technique is flawed, then you just research an improvement. The reason new elven high magic rituals aren't usually researched is because elves are cowardly with respect to magic and its possible misuse(ignoring possible benefits). Many of the more talented wizards probably just aren't taught if they don't fit a specific mold of what they expect a high-mage to be. ... Plus, the reverence for magic, likely also gets in their way. Thinking of it, and of high magic rituals as near holy stuff. -- Anyway, I don't see how the slow decay of Wizard Mythals is important in a normal time frame. They aren't exactly going to decay in the next hundred years at least. ... and innovative use of epic magic, is part of the point of being an epic mage. There's nothing wrong with a cheap solution to your problem that gives you an advantage over others :P (best protect your knowledge though, lest others realize the path you took, and bring the same force against you)
Karsus the Mad 06-23-07, 10:31 AM	-I/We already mentioned that I'm/We're not crazy. Right Karsus? I am reasonably sure, yes. However, talking to myself is not the best reasurrance:embarrass
Lord Karsus 06-23-07, 05:44 PM	Many of the more talented wizards probably just aren't taught if they don't fit a specific mold of what they expect a high-mage to be. -Case in point, Araevin, the main character from the Last Mythal Trilogy. While he is, by the raw, physically capable of casting Elven High Magic, he is not given the opportunity to train to be a Selu'Taar, because he does not fit the mold of what a Selu'Taar is. In this case, Araevin was too impatient. ... Plus, the reverence for magic, likely also gets in their way. Thinking of it, and of high magic rituals as near holy stuff. -Well, it kinda is, each casting being approved by Corellon Larethian and all. Anyway, I don't see how the slow decay of Wizard Mythals is important in a normal time frame. They aren't exactly going to decay in the next hundred years at least. -Well, if you're in the wrong place, at the wrong time, when a Wizardly Mythal begins to deteriorate... I am reasonably sure, yes. However, talking to myself is not the best reasurrance:embarrass -Eh, what do they know? We are probably the only sane ones, and they are all insane...:shifty:
XHereticX 06-23-07, 07:03 PM	I am reasonably sure, yes. However, talking to myself is not the best reasurrance:embarrass Well, there really isn't much of a difference in reassuring yourself and talking to yourself right?:D One is kind of required for the other.
Karsus the Mad 06-23-07, 10:50 PM	-Eh, what do they know? We are probably the only sane ones, and they are all insane...:shifty: "Does thinking we're the last sane person in the world make us insane? Cuz if so, then maybe we are." type of thing eh?