Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meldread 01-23-08, 01:02 AM	Often when I look at some FR deities I am left wondering: "Who in their right mind would worship this psychopath?" I try and look at them and think of ways they can fit into a real world setting. Why would I worship this deity? What makes this deity special? How does this deity impact and effect normal day-to-day life of his or her worshipers? How would mortals view this deity, and more importantly is the deity diverse enough to be viewed in various different ways? (And if the answer is yes - it opens itself up to rival factions within a faith.) One of the biggest offenders in the setting are evil deities. It's hard to imagine people worshiping some of them without being forced. Most of the nature deities could get away with it, certainly... but there are others that some people inevitably ask: "Why? Why would anyone worship that deity?" Shar is often brought up in this regard. She's an interesting deity because she is unique. She is a deity who is evil not for power or any real inherent benefit. She is evil because she wants to destroy the world and she includes herself in that equation. She wants to take everything back to a primeval void of nothingness. Most people gloss over Shar because it is difficult to understand such a deity, but I actually see Shar differently and have taken steps to make her reasons if not rational - at least sympathetic. Shar is a deity whose twin sister is Selune. They were born more or less at the same time, and in the beginning they got along and it would not be a stretch to say that they loved and cared for one another very deeply. I imagine Shar was very different back then - much of the "evil" you see in her today did not exist. She was a deity of darkness, much as she is now, though her darkness was much more powerful and far reaching. Yet, in order for there to be life Chauntea required the warmth of light, and it is at that point where Shar and Selune became divided. Shar being a deity of darkness was against it - it would have caused her harm. Selune, on the other hand, was for it and was essentially asking her sister to make a sacrifice for the greater good. It was a sacrifice Shar was unwilling to make, and as a result Selune went behind her back and brought light and warmth to Toril herself. I try and imagine what this would have been like from Shar's perspective. Here is her sister - a being whom she loves dearly - a being who she would give almost anything to please... a sister who has taken a direct action that has caused her harm. I see it as a traumatic event for Shar and the defining moment when she began her true slide into evil. Shar's natural reaction is one of anger and grief. "How could my sister betray me? Why did she do this to me?" Shar attempted to snuff out all the light and Selune attempted to prevent her from doing it, and it is at that point that an all out war broke out between them both. Selune did what she believed was right and what was ultimately for the greater good but in the process harmed her sister. As a result of this Shar took on a very human characteristic after she lost the war. She became bitter and withdrawn. She was filled with loss, the love she had for her sister, still there and not forgotten - but in replace of it a deep feeling of betrayal. Shar's method of dealing with the pain is to lash out at what Selune holds most dear, in part for revenge - "You hurt me, this is what it feels like!" and in part because she genuinely WANTS Selune to understand and ultimately come to her side so that she can once again share the relationship that they once had. To me that is a very human reaction. Most people at some point in their lives, will experience betrayal that will shake them to the very core. A cheating lover, a friend backstabbing you, and so on and so forth. Shar appeals to those who have been hurt by those they trusted and loved. However, Shar has moved beyond that into another realm entirely. Shar doesn't just want to return to the point before no light. She wants to destroy everything. On the face of it, most people would laugh and say 'That's crazy!' Yet, when you look around the world - including our own - there is evil everywhere. Shar has taken a common concept among many real world religions - a heaven or nirvana - and has warped it. Shar's appeal is this, "You are hurting. I understand how that feels. I know the pain you feel is real, and I hurt with you, but there is a way it can all go away. Through worshiping me I can take you to that place." This is a very appealing message to many. Especially in a mediaeval world - there is not a whole lot to look forward too. "This life sucks, I hope the next one is better." Is pretty much the message she is selling. The nothingness - the void - can be sold as a place of peace and wholeness. Even a place of enlightenment. A place where there is no pain, no suffering, no fear, no worry - just stillness and completion. Just peace and harmony with the universe. However, that message is distorted primarily due to the individuals targeted. Those targeted are those who have been hurt - those in emotional pain. Like in most religions there is a need for evangelizing. However, in order for a Sharran to "enlighten" others to her "holy truth" they need them to be in the right state of mind. This inevitably means causing them pain or grief. To a Sharran doing these things are necessary in order for others to understand a fundamental truth - the world in which they live is inherently evil. I can imagine Sharran priests being almost ascetic in nature because they would not want much from the material world. It is the enemy that they are fighting against. The other gods and deities are those who are working against Shar and are the enemy. Selune, to them, would be "the Great Betrayer" and the source of much of the evil in the world. In the end, Shar preys upon those who have been hurt emotionally, and turns them into people like her. She uses their negative emotions to warp who they are, and in the end they are ultimately evil in the cosmological sense, even though they would disagree. A Sharran could justify murder as an act of mercy. How can murder be evil, when life itself is the source of so much pain? The most vile and evil things imaginable suddenly become justifiable because in a Sharran's twisted frame of mind they are ultimately performing a good act. When Shar is viewed in this light, it is easy to understand how she could be a popular deity. Another deity of interest is Bane. When people look at and think about Bane they ultimately think oppression and tyranny. It is hard for most people to understand the appeal of Bane, because most people don't see what he ultimately offers. Imagine living in a third world nation that is just torn apart with war. You have many different factions with warlords. There is chaos. Utter and complete chaos. You live each day in fear for your life. You live each day in fear for your childrens lives. You cannot earn a livelihood and your family is slowly starving. It is in those times that you crave something – stability, order. And in those times you would welcome it by any means necessary. Bane provides this - he is a source of strength when the very world around you seems to be falling a part. He is a source of hope in the face of doom and death. A strong Banite leader can bring a people and a nation together - bringing it back from the brink of destruction. In that sense, Bane could very easily be seen as a savior to some people and those people may feel indebted to the deity. Yet, Bane is an evil deity - and the evil deeds come after his followers achieve power. There will always be those who oppose authority. A Banite however, views opposition as a threat that must be crushed. It is something that threatens stability - this is something that would be critical to any Banite. Stability, order and the rule of law. There is always a chain of command, and that chain can never be broken except in the most dire of circumstances. Ultimately, a Banite Society by necessity requires a military. At first this military would deal with internal opposition, but soon enough it will face opposition from outside forces. A Banite's goals can be noble. A Banite can believe that they are a worthy leader, that they have the strength to carry a country - a nation - a people - to where they deserve to be. In fact, I would argue that most Banite leaders see themselves in exactly that way. War with neighbors will happen over resources, and that war would be viewed as ultimately doing good for your people. It brings to them wealth and prosperity. To lower ranking Banites, they would respect authority and their place in society. The worship of Bane will inevitably lead to fascism. An individual is less important than a people, a state and a nation. The individual must make sacrifices for the greater good of the people and the nation. These would be seen as a noble thing, but inevitably those at the bottom will suffer as a result. Much of our worlds history has been ruled by dictators of all sort. Some were good, some were bad, and ultimately all of them could have paid homage to Bane. Any nation ruled by a tyrant opens itself up to the church of Bane, no matter how enlightened and benevolent the leader. In that sense, Bane is a very human deity and it is not very difficult to understand why someone could worship him. That being said - Bane and Shar are not the only deities with a bad PR department. However, I am curious if other people here have different takes on deities. How do you "humanize" FR deities in your campaign so that it makes sense that they could actually be worshiped by "real" people?
HVulpes 01-23-08, 05:28 PM	I am not sure you have read the Core Beliefs article involving Hextor has a similar look at the Lawful Evil deity as you had with Bane. People in constant danger or termoil will turn to anything to make sense of their lives. Other seem to make sense as well. Malar has a good side in Cormyr as Lord of the Hunt. He may slaughter elves in his free time, yet he also makes sure people don't starve during the winter. Talos attracts those that want to lash out on the world, yet they are given companionship in part with these ideals. Plus in helping to destroy the world, they are aiding in the natural order of the universe. Some destruction can be seen as good such as cutting down a diseased tree or eliminating a monster/enemy force about to attack. Just some thoughts.
XHereticX 01-25-08, 11:43 PM	Loviatar's creed revolves around the urge to dominate and subdue other individuals and prove your superiority with cruelty and vengence when you either feel inferior to others in different means or if you have an emotional and mental advantage over others and seek to flaunt it . This faith would attract two very different groups. The first would obviously attract those with extremely low self-esteem that have been bullied, mistreated, and abused all their life. This feeling of inferiority in life leads to great resentment and a burning desire to raise themselves above their enemies by unconventional means when in daily life they feel like they are nothing. Loviatar offers a chance for these empty beings to find a way to not only use pain to dominate others, but also provide an emotional blockade to reduce the amount of self-hatred and pain that the individual feels within themselves. The second are those who have throughout life dominated others through various means and think themselves superior yet still feel empty inside. These are your true bullies, the ones that find that the only way to raise their own self-esteem is to destroy that of others. This elitist mentality combined with constant boredom and emptiness makes Loviatar's creed of torture, mercilessness, and pain highly appealing to bored and purposeless people of power.
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 12:51 AM	Cyric's appeal is always naked appeal to the worst elements of human kind. Cyric will offer you whatever the Hell you want so long as you worship him. I kind of think his faith, unfortunately, in canon is like the Jerry Springer show of messed up lunatics that are attracted by the power of it. And really, God help you if you're ever in a Cyricist controlled area.
LowCypher 01-26-08, 12:58 AM	That's a nice take on Bane, Meldread! :) And it's very believable, if projected into our real world. I actually live in a third world country, and I have had conversations with friends who might subscribe to the idea of a 'strong' leader. There are talks that my country is too chaotic for its own good and law and order must be imposed by a strong hand in order for it to attain a modicum of progress.
Suin Bahhar 01-26-08, 08:55 AM	People as a community can only be molded to perfection and purged of weakness through healthy fear of consequences. Layers of fear can help form an autocracy upon which growth and expansionism can be expected. Eventually a fearfull society will lash out with all their aggresion upon anything that tries to subjugate it. Lolth has strengthened the drow through fear for millenia, shaping the drow society as she wishes into a perfect theocratic empirial machine.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 10:21 AM	Myrkul, besides the individuals that paid homage to him out of fear for their decreased ones, would also attract the worship of individuals with a Dustman type mentality. Those who believe life is imperfect and rotten and seek enlightenment through communion with undead (whom they believe are superior beings) or just devoting one's life to death itself. Those who specifically hold resentment against the happiness and joy many find in life while they can find nothing but despair will also be attracted to the faith due to their need to believe in something better than life and their desire to exact retribution against joy and life itself.
Zsych 01-27-08, 09:51 AM	I disagree with Selune's act being for the greater good. She put her own creations, like what would be toys to us at a higher priority than her sister. And even if you consider the lives of the beings that came to be there important, fact is that at that point none of those existed. You could as well kill someone destroying frozen sperm for the potential lives they have, and think it justified. Heck, before the light was brought into the game, there wasn't even sperm worth of life on Toril. Selune betrayed Shar on the basis of a dream. Baah!!!!
Meldread 01-27-08, 10:43 PM	Zsych- I am pretty sure Shar sees it that way, too. :P It's a very logical way to look at it and makes Shar and her aims much more sympathetic.
XHereticX 01-28-08, 09:20 AM	Zsych- I am pretty sure Shar sees it that way, too. :P It's a very logical way to look at it and makes Shar and her aims much more sympathetic. The thing is, Justicewise, it actually makes sense and in many ways Selune DID betray her sister.;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-29-08, 07:17 PM	Neh. I like what Selune did. I don't find Shar to be sympathetic.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 08:28 AM	Neh. I like what Selune did. I don't find Shar to be sympathetic. I agree, what Selune did was right, but that dosen't mean she didn't betray her sister's trust.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 01:34 PM	I agree, what Selune did was right, but that dosen't mean she didn't betray her sister's trust. I don't know, did they have some kind of pact between where they agreed not to create anything? I don't see why Shar is more entitled to perfect nothingness than Selune is entitled to creation.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 02:26 PM	I don't know, did they have some kind of pact between where they agreed not to create anything? I don't see why Shar is more entitled to perfect nothingness than Selune is entitled to creation. But that's the thing, neither one is more entitled to each other than the other. Selune already had the stars and etc as creation, and the addition of life tipped the balance so to speak, and Shar felt betrayed, especially since she wasn't informed and allowed to try to compromise.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 07:17 PM	But that's the thing, neither one is more entitled to each other than the other. Selune already had the stars and etc as creation, and the addition of life tipped the balance so to speak, and Shar felt betrayed, especially since she wasn't informed and allowed to try to compromise. How do we know that? Heck, how do we know about the true thoughts and feelings of a goddess at the dawn of time? It seems to me like this discussion is based mostly on assumptions.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 07:29 PM	How do we know that? Heck, how do we know about the true thoughts and feelings of a goddess at the dawn of time? It seems to me like this discussion is based mostly on assumptions. So neither side is fundamentally more correct than the other and this discussion is just for the pure purpose of speculation.
Draco Spirit 02-01-08, 07:56 PM	A fair few of the evil deities (mostly the fury lot) are your classic bully gods, pray to them and they won't do bad things to you.. in fact they might go and do the bad things to yours foes.
DoomedPaladinDohReMe 02-02-08, 02:54 AM	What are other Gods that make you go, WTF? The Drow God of Slimes for instance. Rarely answers it's worshipers and might just send an Avatar just to eat them! Also I read somewhere that it was a Greater Deity and the slimes and jellies that worshiped it used to be intelligent. Then they did something to offend it, so it cursed them all with stupidity. Suddenly all it's worshipers were too stupid to worship it and it dropped to it's current power level. Why would DROW worship something so retarded?
Charles Phipps 02-02-08, 03:05 AM	I recall after reading it. "Holy :censored: I have got to worship this thing! It gives me Magic Items for human sacrifices!" ;-)
XHereticX 02-03-08, 12:37 PM	I recall after reading it. "Holy :censored: I have got to worship this thing! It gives me Magic Items for human sacrifices!" ;-) Amen.
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 09:37 PM	Yes, I always felt Ghaundaur was one of the best gods out there because he gave concrete payoffs to his followers. I mean, sure, you have to toss dozens of people to him regularly but that's better than most gods! Really, amongst the twinks, Ghaundaur is grand. FINALLY a way to dispose of all those Kobold prisoners.
1 ton ghost 02-09-08, 01:52 PM	Ghaundaur isn't drow. not reallly definable really. big blob of entropy. they (a few) simply worship him given their environment in the Underdark where he is to be found. Llurth Dreir i think is a good testament to that. a real sh-thole to be sure of, one big city Lloth gave up on that is now largely his domain. it's just surrouded by fens and oozes in the Shining South. his reward/prayer system is fairly simple if not childish. it's appealing to the basic tenets of greed. ie)i give "it" stuff and it gives me stuff. there is no grounding of faith there, just a willingness to capitalize on material wealth which i find odd given his portfolio. he is fickle and inscrutable. not a safe bet as even his most zelous might make a tasty snack one day Shar and the original argument is interesting though we are applying human concepts and impressing them on deific levels. probably something we shouldn't do. anyway, Shar is bitter, nursing of grudges and the like are her bread and butter. so, it's her foundation. all the gods, given their portfolio(s) have a related story. it's just poetic symbolism. the whole Creation Myth, like the on in theBible, is largely based on speculation. still, it's relevant, just not open to cynicism and interpretation. i think we should not confuse nihilism w/ evil. she represents the former, or at least did until creation. the perfect nothingness you mentioned previously. ironically, if the basic assumption of # of worshipers = divine power is in play everyone has spoken of, then if there was no Creation, would there not be any worshipers for her? ie)were all the gods on equal footing before Toril was populated and ppl given over to their worship?