Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johnkretzer 10-09-07, 04:37 PM	I seemm to remeber some FR lore that stated that the Weave was just more than just the souce of magic. It was also the souce of life on Toril or atleast part of everything. Does any Realms lore keepers remember this? Or am I thinking of something else? I know I used it to give FR's sorcerers another route to being a sorcerer besides bloodlines. Also this means they have really killed the Realms by the Weaves destruction. Since the two are the same lore wise.
Alediran 10-09-07, 05:08 PM	You are correct in that the Weave is what gives life to the realms. Without the Weave, the Realms would die.
johnkretzer 10-09-07, 06:08 PM	You are correct in that the Weave is what gives life to the realms. Without the Weave, the Realms would die. I am sure tey will retcon it somehow by ignoring it. But I can see Shar's new stories they plan on writing... Shar sits down with some popcorn and waits....becase if you stick with the lore...the Realms is dead.
msatran 10-09-07, 06:10 PM	Yeah. Pretty much, all you would have would be nature deities. Nature magic is, according to lore, different.
buzzard 10-09-07, 06:29 PM	As far as I know that's not TSR/WotC cannon. I think it was Ed Greenwood who stated that the Weave was the source of life on Toril. However that would contradict the lore (and makes absolutely no sense), since there was life in the Realms before Mystryl/the Weave existed. In the Time of Troubles the malfunctioning weave didn't prevent life from existing. A Dead Magic Zone (absence of the Weave) doesn't prevent life from existing, the Spellplague (complete and utter destruction of the Weave) will not prevent life and so on and so on...
Storm_Silverhand 10-09-07, 06:51 PM	Heya, As far as I know that's not TSR/WotC cannon. I think it was Ed Greenwood who stated that the Weave was the source of life on Toril. However that would contradict the lore (and makes absolutely no sense), since there was life in the Realms before Mystryl/the Weave existed. In the Time of Troubles the malfunctioning weave didn't prevent life from existing. A Dead Magic Zone (absence of the Weave) doesn't prevent life from existing, the Spellplague (complete and utter destruction of the Weave) will not prevent life and so on and so on... Yes, life existed before Mystryl was a separate entity and while Shar and Selune were still whole. Let's just say that Selune tore that part away from herself, and threw it at her sister - it tore the corresponding part of Shar away and formed Mystryl. The Weave was always there, most likely, originally a part of both Selune and Shar.
buzzard 10-09-07, 07:27 PM	Heya, Yes, life existed before Mystryl was a separate entity and while Shar and Selune were still whole. Let's just say that Selune tore that part away from herself, and threw it at her sister - it tore the corresponding part of Shar away and formed Mystryl. The Weave was always there, most likely, originally a part of both Selune and Shar. But we know from the "creation myth" that Chauntea explicitly asked for warmth so that she could support life on Toril, not magic. And thus the Sun was ignited by Selūne, creating the deity of the sun who probably had the "birth" portfolio (like Lathander has now). Obviously all that was needed to support life on Toril was the existence of the portfolio of birth. Plus the magic essence of Shar and Selūne was inside of them but, it was not a fabric like the Weave that coats the universe. Finally, what you say doesn't apply to the scenarios (other than the first) that I presented. It still doesn't explain how there can be life in places where there's a complete absence of the Weave. I'm sorry but Ed Greenwood's conception just doesn't make any sense.
johnkretzer 10-10-07, 01:01 AM	As far as I know that's not TSR/WotC cannon. I think it was Ed Greenwood who stated that the Weave was the source of life on Toril. However that would contradict the lore (and makes absolutely no sense), since there was life in the Realms before Mystryl/the Weave existed. In the Time of Troubles the malfunctioning weave didn't prevent life from existing. A Dead Magic Zone (absence of the Weave) doesn't prevent life from existing, the Spellplague (complete and utter destruction of the Weave) will not prevent life and so on and so on... Actualy I find it well a very recent souce...Magics of Faerun. Read what it say about the Weave. Also as I recall Dead Magic places are barren...deviod of life...I can't right now find a description of the Helmland right now but I remeber that is how it was described. I am not saying it is a instant things as it is proven not to be, but I always got the feeling that life would be ending. As I said the Weave wasn't just some fluff on how magic worked.
johnkretzer 10-10-07, 01:09 AM	But we know from the "creation myth" that Chauntea explicitly asked for warmth so that she could support life on Toril, not magic. And thus the Sun was ignited by Selūne, creating the deity of the sun who probably had the "birth" portfolio (like Lathander has now). Obviously all that was needed to support life on Toril was the existence of the portfolio of birth. Like I am saying is I think it was the Weave that Selune made to warm the world for Chauntea. True the 3rd ed. FRCS sorta contradicts that...though it doesn't say that the Weave was made when Mystryl. It existed before that. Plus the magic essence of Shar and Selūne was inside of them but, it was not a fabric like the Weave that coats the universe. Finally, what you say doesn't apply to the scenarios (other than the first) that I presented. It still doesn't explain how there can be life in places where there's a complete absence of the Weave. I'm sorry but Ed Greenwood's conception just doesn't make any sense. As I said i think if you read the desciption of those area you will see that there are barren. Atleast in 2nd edition there were Also I think I have read them in the novels...and soucebooks...spoken by people who would know about the Weave... So what some novels aren't canon anymore? Can they give us a list?
Ramenth 10-10-07, 02:13 AM	4E Stuff Well, given that the Weave still exists (I assume, given that from what I've heard it explodes) when Mystra's dead, it seems that she's no longer the embodyment of it, rather the custodian.
johnkretzer 10-10-07, 03:05 AM	4E Stuff Well, given that the Weave still exists (I assume, given that from what I've heard it explodes) when Mystra's dead, it seems that she's no longer the embodyment of it, rather the custodian. More 4 E stuff It states in the GhotR the Weaves destruction. it is going away Hey that is first time I used those...:)
Alediran 10-10-07, 08:14 AM	During the ToT without Mystra watching over the Weave the whole planet became a Wild Magic Zone. I don't know if somebody remembers a part of the first book, where the heroes where traveling to Shadowdale and suddenly a giant magic storm appeared that altered the terrain in weird shapes. Imagine what would happen if there was no Weave.
buzzard 10-10-07, 09:41 AM	Like I am saying is I think it was the Weave that Selune made to warm the world for Chauntea. From Selūne's entry in Faiths and Pantheons: "...Chauntea begged the sisters to grant her world warmth and light that life might flourish upon it. Selūne relented, igniting the sun with elemental fire." From the Creation Myth: "This new universe was lit by the face of the silver-haired goddess, who called herself Selune, and darkened by the welcoming tresses of the raven-haired goddess, Shar, but no heat or fire existed within it. Chauntea begged for warmth so that she could nurture life and living creatures upon the planets that were her body and limbs, and the two sisters-Who-Were-One become divided, as for the first time they were of two minds. Silvery Selune contested with her dark sister over whether or not to bring further life to the worlds. During this great conflagration, the gods of war, disease, murder, and death, among others, were created from residues of the deific battle. Selūne ignited the sun to create life. ...it doesn't say that the Weave was made when Mystryl. It existed before that. No, Mystryl WAS the Weave and so the Weave didn't exist until she was created. By that point Selūne had already ignited the sun and some other deities were created by the ongoing battle between Shar and Selūne (and I quote "...the gods of war, disease, murder, and death, among others, were created from residues of the deific battle...") As I said i think if you read the desciption of those area you will see that there are barren. Atleast in 2nd edition there were If I recall correctly, when Mystra died she went KABOOM and the explosion charred an area and that spot became a Dead Magic Zone, but the damage done to the place was because of the explosion. Other Dead Magic Zones look as normal as any other place. Concluding, there's no evidence at all to support that the Weave is what makes life possible. And about the entry on Magic of Faerūn, it says that the Weave permeates everything as an explanation that whatever place the Weave touches it can be manipulated via magic, if the Weave touches a living creature then it can be the target of a magical spell however, if there's no weave touching a living creature (like in a dead magic zone) then that creature cannot be affected by magic. It also states that the Weave touches the unliving as well but we can't deduct from that that the Weave is what allows non-living thing to exist, we know for example that the planet existed before the Weave did. During the ToT without Mystra watching over the Weave the whole planet became a Wild Magic Zone. I don't know if somebody remembers a part of the first book, where the heroes where traveling to Shadowdale and suddenly a giant magic storm appeared that altered the terrain in weird shapes. Imagine what would happen if there was no Weave. So what? A wild magic zone is a place where the Weave does exist, and produces unexpected magical effects. If instead it was a dead magic zone nothing would have happened since no magic could've been used in that area.
Alediran 10-10-07, 09:52 AM	So what? A wild magic zone is a place where the Weave does exist, and produces unexpected magical effects. If instead it was a dead magic zone nothing would have happened since no magic could've been used in that area. There are zones in Myth Drannor where the Weave doesn't exists that are devoid of life. While there is another Dead Magic Zone that continually moves and thanks to that nothing bad happened, because that area doesn't stays long enough to cause the death of life where it stands.
buzzard 10-10-07, 10:02 AM	There are zones in Myth Drannor where the Weave doesn't exists that are devoid of life. While there is another Dead Magic Zone that continually moves and thanks to that nothing bad happened, because that area doesn't stays long enough to cause the death of life where it stands. Source please? Plus, a question, is it EXPLICITLY stated that the absence of the Weave causes the area to be devoid of life? (it could be a coincidence after all). And define "devoid of life" in that circumstance, are there only dead trees or plants? or when a person enters the area he/she loses his/her life? If that was true then I'm afraid it contradicts canon. And a moving dead magic zone is as illogical as you can get since there's no magic in the first place to support it's movement, it's not like it has legs...
Alediran 10-10-07, 10:14 AM	Source please? Plus, a question, is it EXPLICITLY stated that the absence of the Weave causes the area to be devoid of life? (it could be a coincidence after all). And define "devoid of life" in that circumstance, are there only dead trees or plants? or when a person enters the area he/she loses his/her life? If that was true then I'm afraid it contradicts canon. The person doesn't receives an energy drain effect because the damage to life is so slow that it takes time to be affected, that is why Mystryl's death didn't kill all life, because the Weave stopped to function merely some minutes. Something that was different during the ToT where the Weave went Wild in most places and Dead in a couple more. The greatest deserts of Faerūn where created by magical failure, they aren't "natural". And those areas devoid of life are like the desert, except that the floor is rocky instead of sandy. IIRC that was stated in the 2ed Ruins of Myth Drannor. And since it has never been contradicted, then it still stands as cannon.
buzzard 10-10-07, 10:23 AM	The person doesn't receives an energy drain effect because the damage to life is so slow that it takes time to be affected, that is why Mystryl's death didn't kill all life Mystryl's death didn't kill anybody, except for those who were floating high above the sky but, then again, they didn't die because of Mystryl but because they crashed down. because the Weave stopped to function merely some minutes. Something that was different during the ToT where the Weave went Wild in most places and Dead in a couple more. The greatest deserts of Faerūn where created by magical failure, they aren't "natural". And those areas devoid of life are like the desert, except that the floor is rocky instead of sandy. Precisely magical failure means that there IS magic so the deserts WEREN'T created by the ABSENCE of magic. A wizard could make his personal desert if he so wanted by USING magic, a malfunctioning magic area could do the same with it's unexpected results. Still, there's no evidence to support that the LACK of magic produced those deserts. A living being can be altered by magic (for example: polymorphing someone) because the weave reaches every place, but the absence of the weave would only mean that that someone can't be altered further because there's no magic to do so but, it would not die. IIRC that was stated in the 2ed Ruins of Myth Drannor. And since it has never been contradicted, then it still stands as cannon. I'll check it out but what I meant to say is that something like what you explained would contradict established lore. The creation myth and all the other evidence still trumps what is a mistake in a product. Plus, as I said before a moving dead magic zone makes absolute no sense for the reasons I've stated. You also didn't answer my question, does the book explicitly states that the dead magic area produced the death of the living things around it?
Suin Bahhar 10-10-07, 10:35 AM	The weave = life analogy is mostly metaphorical IMO. Magic that fails wont destroy lifes energy. Divine and Nature magic is more closly connected to life energy as the dogmatic choices of a soul direct its destination when travlling to the afterlife, shaping the planes in a semidirect fashion. Do specific divine dead magic zones exist on fearun? How will failing of the weave and reorienting of the planes affect divine casting?
Ramenth 10-10-07, 11:38 AM	Wasnt it stated that Divine and Nature magic was just a different way of accessing the Weave, however?
Alediran 10-10-07, 11:44 AM	Wasnt it stated that Divine and Nature magic was just a different way of accessing the Weave, however? Yes, there isn't a difference except that divine magic doesn't suffers from Arcane Spell Failure and needs less components to make it work.
Zsych 10-17-07, 02:51 AM	During the ToT, a fair part of Mystra's divinity was still around in her Chosen. In fact, with Mystra having anticipated the event, she had put more of her divinity into her Chosen. With Mystra not anticipating it before she dies, magic should be in an even worse state than the ToT, although not completely dead(since the parts of Mystra inside her Chosen are not casually removed short of killing them) --- As for the Weave being directly linked to magic... from what I remember from Ed on the issue, he said that without the Weave the world would eventually fall apart because a lot of the world is dependent on Weave magic... but that other gods who wanted to put in the effort could conceivably create a replacement, before the world and all life on it ended up dying. ... I don't think that the Weave being around has any effect on a non-magical being, but if the world tore apart under you, things could get ugly :)
DnDsnd 10-19-07, 08:15 PM	The weave was maintained by the goddess of magic who happened to be Mystra, before Mystra or Mystryl there was raw magic. The weave is a manifestation of raw magic. Without the weave raw magic is locked away from mortals because of Mystra. The weave is elusive because it flows through many things simultaneously and the weave is the body of Mystra. Mystra has dominion over magic but she cannot turn off the flow of magic without killing herself. The weave is a conduit for spellcasters to use and channel magical energy for their spells. The weave is the fabric of esoteric rules (meaning arcane theories) and formulas of the spells to be cast. The weave is utilize by spellbooks, components, vocalizations, and gestures of the caster of these spells for these art part of the weave. Wild magic is warped or frayed sections of the weave and dead magic areas are broken or completely torn sections of the weave. None of which effects life other then making it more beautiful or vibrant so to speak. Dead magic areas still have life just not as bright much like our world. You can imagine the difference by comparing Kansas to Oz in the Wizard of Oz. Now shadow magic is and different flow of magic which controlled by Shar. The shadow weave is or flows along similar paths. Allowing for different formulations and theories in magic. This is my theory on what happens with magic and the spellplague: When Mystra dies in 1385 DR then the weave is no more and only raw magic exists mortals are unable to tap into it but they are able to tap into the shadow weave. This lack of the magic does not last long because even if Mystra dies stores of her magic are in the chosen this has been done before, basically hidden caches of the weave. I assume that all arcane spellcaster lose their magic and are unable to cope with this loss so some go mad some tap the shadow weave. At some point mortals figure out how to tap into raw magic from more ancient forms of magic like the Nether Scrolls of the creator races. At one time raw magic in the realms was readily available this was before the fall of Netheril when heavy magic was available and when Karse attempted to steal some of Mystyls magic to become a god. Raw magic equals heavy magic. Well that's my thoughts decipher it how ever you want.
Storm_Silverhand 10-19-07, 08:50 PM	Heya, When Mystra dies in 1385 DR then the weave is no more and only raw magic exists mortals are unable to tap into it but they are able to tap into the shadow weave. This lack of the magic does not last long because even if Mystra dies stores of her magic are in the chosen this has been done before, basically hidden caches of the weave. I assume that all arcane spellcaster lose their magic and are unable to cope with this loss so some go mad some tap the shadow weave. At some point mortals figure out how to tap into raw magic from more ancient forms of magic like the Nether Scrolls of the creator races. They've as much as stated that there will be no more Shadow Weave in 4th Ed.
DnDsnd 10-19-07, 11:14 PM	Heya, They've as much as stated that there will be no more Shadow Weave in 4th Ed. Well there will be some sort of shadow magic because the Shadovar are not leaving. I think we all need to be a little more positive. I find so much negativity un-beneficial to a cohesive enviroment ;)
Storm_Silverhand 10-20-07, 07:15 AM	Heya, Well there will be some sort of shadow magic because the Shadovar are not leaving. I think we all need to be a little more positive. I find so much negativity un-beneficial to a cohesive enviroment ;) There was shadow magic pre-Shadow Weave (See Shadow Conjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm) and similar spells - all existed back in 2e). The Shadovar don't necessarily need the Shadow Weave to exist, just some kind of connection to the Plane of Shadows (they're calling it the Shadowfell in 4e?). Personally, I'm not going to be crying over the loss of the Shadow Weave. I'm glad its gone. (Not meaning to belittle anyone who liked the Shadow Weave here, in the end Weave and Shadow Weave fans alike are all in the same boat on this one.)
DnDsnd 10-20-07, 12:26 PM	This is from the FRCS page 55 this may help to read again to see that perhaps it was planned for some time the last couple of paragraphs could imply such a change in the weaves. I least I found it interesting to read again. http://bp1.blogger.com/_LYdB7DgTJnw/RxopdqRnC8I/AAAAAAAAADQ/Wl5QrOgeZEw/s1600/Mystra%2Band%2BWeave.bmp
Karsus the Mad 10-20-07, 12:58 PM	A dead magic zone doesn't kill anything. It's merely a hole in the Weave. Raw Magic is still present (and accessible via alternate methods) within a Dead Magic zone, otherwise users of the Shadow Weave wouldn't be able to cast spells either while within a Weave Dead Magic zone, yet they can. And vice versa. A Shadow Weave Dead Magic zone has no impedance upon a Weave users ability to utilize magic. Then take into account the other various methods of accessing and utilizing Raw Magic independent of any weave (thus ignoring any Dead Magic Zones within those weaves), such as pluma, table, psionics, etc, and it seems to me that a Dead Magic zone isn't actually an absence of magic at all, since magic can and does function normally within such an area when harnessed via an alternate method (thus Raw Magic, which is the true source of magic, still exists within). A Dead Magic Zone is merely a "cut off" for a specific *method* of accessing and harnessing raw magic. In any event, it's rather moot to come to a final conclusion based on a few tidbits, while ignoring other tidbits that don't fit our desired outcome, and all without knowing much about magic and it's interactions with Toril to begin with. Remember, everything published about magic and the Weave isn't everything there is to know about magic and the Weave. It's a *very* small amount of information that could be, and often is, purposely erroneous. We're all very ignorant as to the true nature of magic and gods.
GothicDan 10-20-07, 06:40 PM	I consider the Weave basically like the Force - or in Mage terms, Quintessence. Without the Force/Quintessence, reality cannot be, and that includes death. It's the stuff of creation itself. In the case of Dead Magic Zones, I'd consider the 'inertia' of the stable Weave around it to be holding it in place, as a sort of pocket, an air bubble under water. And there's also references in OLD D&D (1E or 2E) of suggestions that the true 'source' of magic may be Positive/Negative Energy - representing the cycle of reality, creation and destruction both.
Karsus the Mad 10-20-07, 06:55 PM	I dunno...after the revelations of the Force in Star Wars episode one, I don't think it resembles the Weave at all:P Tiny microscopic organisms that form symbiotic relationships with you and allow you to connect to and access the Force? Hmmmm....actually.... I think you're talking about the Force as presented by Obi Wan Kenobe in the original Star Wars, in which case I agree;) Or you're talking about the SW RPG, which I know nothing of:P
GothicDan 10-20-07, 08:29 PM	I definitely meant the pre-Prequel (that is right, right?) Force. :) The Weave is like physics, as I've said before. Don't expect to suddenly negate one of the four Fundamental Interactions and cause no harm to reality.
boards 10-21-07, 06:15 AM	oops
Zsych 10-22-07, 01:52 AM	If any of the fundamental forces stopped working the universe would probably be effectively destroyed on the spot :) Better to think of it as oil and oil energy based technology put together :) The last time the Weave died, magical beings suffered. Wizards surviving by Ioulaum's longevity died. Many of the Phaerimm died. Regular humans and other beings... no effect. The elves don't seem to have been much worse off either from not having magic for a while. I have the odd impression that Toril as a whole might be like old Netheril, which had weather maintained by magic. I don't think that there are spells maintaining weather everywhere but that over the millenia powerful magical cultures have probably changed and effected things in the world with magic, that would be destablized without it. I also notice stuff like... Aumvor becoming a lich because his Ioulaum's Longevity spell failed. Seems that once completed the contingency spell construct that bound his soul to his phylactery if it was freed of the body, was no longer dependent on the Weave(but worked through some other local Torilean physics). I wonder at what other constructs depend both on existing physics laws of Toril and the Weave, that will fail and cause trouble over time with one of their components missing. --- And the Force... technically it could still be a whole that you communicate with through the midi-chlorian garbage(but trying to explain the thing with an explanation that doesn't actually explain anything was incredibly lame).