About 1384 [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

About 1384 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
nestorius
10-10-07, 12:23 PM Hi !

I need help about a sentence on page 159 of "The grand history of the Realms":

"With the Triad broken because of Helm's death, Ilmater chooses to ..."

:confused: But the Triad was not the Tyr-Torm-Ilmater alliance??

Thanks!
customdrapery
10-10-07, 12:37 PM Indeed, the Triad was made up of Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater.

My interpretation of that line was that because Torm and Helm have an alliance and with Tyr killing Helm, Torm was pretty cheesed off and left the service of Tyr. Ilmater also disappointed by his boss' actions, leaves.

Just my $0.02, but the whole thing is badly worked out and it reads much better if you replace all mentions of Helm by Torm. That would make more sense as to why the Triad was broken by these actions.
Old Sage
10-10-07, 12:42 PM Hi !

I need help about a sentence on page 159 of "The grand history of the Realms":

"With the Triad broken because of Helm's death, Ilmater chooses to ..."

:confused: But the Triad was not the Tyr-Torm-Ilmater alliance??

Thanks!Errr... the relationship between Torm and Ilmater, and their roles as servitors to Tyr, is the basis of the Triad.
nestorius
10-10-07, 01:02 PM Indeed, the Triad was made up of Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater.

My interpretation of that line was that because Torm and Helm have an alliance and with Tyr killing Helm, Torm was pretty cheesed off and left the service of Tyr. Ilmater also disappointed by his boss' actions, leaves.

Just my $0.02, but the whole thing is badly worked out and it reads much better if you replace all mentions of Helm by Torm. That would make more sense as to why the Triad was broken by these actions.

I agree with you!

And also with your second suggestion: with Torm instead of Helm, the whole affair could be even more dramatic! (In fact, this was the real thing I wish to discuss in this thread... But my english is not so good :) )

More... Why Tymora? Tyr's Justice in not a matter of Luck... :P
customdrapery
10-10-07, 01:57 PM When I first read that passage, my initial thought was that whoever wrote it didn't remember that it was Torm who was part of the Triad and not Helm. Now that it's published, they got stuck with the switch.

The whole debacle kind of makes more sense if Torm was sent by Tyr to deliver messages to Tymora and when he was accused of stealing Tymora's heart, he felt he had betrayed his own sense of loyalty. Thus, the battle between he and Tyr. Then with the Triad truly broken, Ilmater takes off.

I think the whole thing is kind of poorly worked out on several levels:
1. Why would Tyr care that Siamorphe was mad at him. He's a greater god, she's a demi-god who (basically) has worshipers in Waterdeep.
2. Why would such a disagreement cause any sort of unbalance. Gods disagree all the time.
3. Why would a marriage between a CG goddess and a LG god be at all useful. It seems like a recipe for disaster on my part.
4. Do gods even get married? Lathander and Chauntea are "close" but that's it.

I personally am going to ignore the last couple of columns of aGHotR, they should just have replaced all those bits with a nice index.

And I still think they mixed up Helm and Torm.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
10-10-07, 02:09 PM 3. Why would a marriage between a CG goddess and a LG god be at all useful. It seems like a recipe for disaster on my part.

It doesn't have to be!

But I still agree that this plot development makes little sense.
customdrapery
10-10-07, 04:41 PM You're right, a union between a LG and a CG doesn't have to be a disaster, but the stern Tyr and the fickle Tymora seem like a pretty unlikely pairing. I guess I'm just venting my dislike of that specific turn of events.

If they wanted to kill some gods then by all means have an all-out godswar, but the individual picking off of gods seems silly. Okay, destroying some planes when Mystra dies is kind of neat, but I would have preferred a different method for pairing down the pantheon. Again, just my $0.02.
Keahi19
10-10-07, 05:21 PM I personally think they've been going overboard with changes it seems. I mean really can they take it any further in insanity? Probably.
nestorius
10-10-07, 06:20 PM Well... I'm guessing if, for some reason still unknown, Helm subsumed Torm's portfolio becoming part of the Triad, with Tyr and Ilmater...

Maybe Torm died in some heroic quest... but this is just a guessing.
Selvarin
10-10-07, 06:57 PM I prefer Torm over Helm (although I don't really have a problem with Helm either). Perhaps it is just a name error. If not, perhaps Tyr broke some sacred part of the agreement among the Triad, namely giving in to needless conflicts with other lawful non-evils. Or perhaps they had a deal not to let female deities cause trouble. You know, the Yoko factor. ;)
Muddman72
10-10-07, 06:58 PM There is actually a reason why Helm works better than Torm for this story. This stuff is from long, long ago, back in 2nd ed at least.

Helm was in love with and betrothed to Tyche, the goddess of luck. She was the goddess of all luck, good and bad. Then the Dawn cataclysm happened, some cosmic event where Lathander attempted to destroy all evil in the multiverse.

This event killed several gods, including Tyche. Tyche, as a result, was split into two beings, Tymora (goddess of good luck) and Basheeba (sp?) (goddess of bad luck). She wasn't the same though, and it broke Helm's heart. Ever since, Helm has been a stoic and cold man.

With this bckstory in place, the idea that Helm captured Tymora's heart is alot more plausible. All the gods know that Helm was betrothed to Tyche, so him convincing Tymora isn't such a stretch. It probably also infuriated Tyr to hear that Helm, his buddy, was actually smoozing her since he is her ex-fiance.

Now why was the Triad broken? I think Ilmater felt that the ideals of their pact were broken with Helm's death. The Triad isn't an organization, its an alliance based off of mutual respect and service to Justice. Since Helm was innocent, his death was an act of vengence, not justice, so Ilmater left as an act of silent protest.

Torm is the god of honorable combat, so I think he maybe honor bound to stand by the duel's result since it was a fair fight, just a stupid one.

This is obviously only a guess and I agree it should have been written better in the book entry. As for how Tyr and Tymora works, I can't think of why it wouldn't. Its not like it was a marriage between justice and injustice, its just justice and luck, which don't conflict in anyway I can see.

Just my two copper :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
10-10-07, 07:10 PM Actually, wasn't it Murdane whom Helm loved?
MarkusTay63
10-10-07, 07:21 PM Errr... the relationship between Torm and Ilmater, and their roles as servitors to Tyr, is the basis of the Triad.Maybe they just grew Tyred of him? :D

More... Why Tymora? Tyr's Justice in not a matter of Luck... :PBecause they both liked Ty food? :rolleyes:
Suin Bahhar
10-10-07, 07:24 PM Actually, wasn't it Murdane whom Helm loved?
I thought so too.
Strife026
10-10-07, 07:50 PM I think you are mistaken about the Helm-Tyche love affair. As far as i know, it was Lathander who was courting/engaged to Tyche. There is even a novel about Lathander trying to rejoin Beshaba and Tymora to create Tyche all over. I believe the book is Tymora's Luck.
Storm_Silverhand
10-10-07, 08:03 PM Heya,

Helm was in love with and betrothed to Tyche, the goddess of luck. She was the goddess of all luck, good and bad. Then the Dawn cataclysm happened, some cosmic event where Lathander attempted to destroy all evil in the multiverse.

This event killed several gods, including Tyche. Tyche, as a result, was split into two beings, Tymora (goddess of good luck) and Basheeba (sp?) (goddess of bad luck). She wasn't the same though, and it broke Helm's heart. Ever since, Helm has been a stoic and cold man.

Nope, that was Lathander, not Helm, in love with Tyche. (And not betrothed... I just can't see Tyche, or Tymora or Beshaba, being tied down that way!)

Lathander and Tyche were lovers, but Lathander was so caught up on his Dawn Crusade he pretty much brushed Tyche off when she wanted some alone time with him. So she kissed him with misfortune and wandered off around the Realms.

Eventually she found a single beautiful flower growing out of rocky ground. She thought it was an appeasement gift from Lathander... So she tried to pick it. The stem would not break. Eventually, in frustration, Tyche cursed it, and it came free. She put the flower in her hair and merrily went on her way, not knowing that the flower was, in fact, Moander. While she wandered, Moander slowly rotted her from within.

When she returned home, she came across her dear friend Selune, along with Lathander (who wanted to make up with her) and Azuth (who had agreed to mediate between them). One look was all Selune needed to know something was horribly wrong, and as she blasted the rotten thing Tyche had become, she wept. The purifying light tore the rotted shell of Tyche in two, and from each half stepped Tymora and Beshaba.

This is mostly from memory, but the full story can be found in Faiths and Avatars (the 2nd Edition God book) under Beshaba.
customdrapery
10-11-07, 10:14 AM Muddman72, your scenario would make much more sense if indeed Helm was in love with Tyche, but like the others have said, Helm was with Murdane and it was Lathander who was in love with Tyche. Murdane died during the Dawn Cataclysm (and it's mentioned in aGHotR that she drowned). Which I believe is why he's so stoic and uncaring. Plus, he's upset with Lathander, not Tyr.

Does anyone know if any of the gods are married or have been married in the past? Obviously the gods have children (Bane - Xvim, Silvanus - possibly Eldath, Valigan Thirdborn must have been the son of someone), but that doesn't mean they were married. Just curious if there's precedence for the Tymora-Tyr union.

I agree with you though that the Triad could be broken up by a variety of things, especially the Lawful and Good big boss guy taking out a Lawful god with whom he had no previous argument. If it was so easy to take out gods, why don't the good greater gods just gang up and take out all the others like Malar and Loviatar and Talona, etc. Or vice versa.

Originally posted by MarkusTay63:
Maybe they just grew Tyred of him?
Because they both liked Ty food?
This is the funniest thing I've read in a long time. Nice.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
10-11-07, 10:37 AM I've gotten the impression that the vast majority of gods don't marry, and aren't interested in marriage (even if they ARE interested in having lovers).
SgtAnjay
10-11-07, 10:55 AM Only gods I'm aware of as being married are Osiris and Isis of the Mulhorandi pantheon, and Annam and Othea of the giant patheon (and that one didn't end very well at all).
nestorius
10-11-07, 01:34 PM It is stange that, while they explain the actions of Ilmater after the killing of Helm, nothing is said about Torm...
Maybe he simply remain loyal to Tyr... but I think this silence about him is because:

1) As customdrapery said: It is an error and you have to read Torm instead of Helm
2) Torm is no more (Maybe killed by Bane for revenge of what happened during the Time of Trouble, maybe dead doing something heroic) and Helm is now part of the Triad.

Otherwise nothing could REALLY explain the breaking of the alliance.

The other questions still unanswered are:

-Why should the leaving of a demi-god unbalance the celestial planes?
-Why should be a marriage between gods the only way to resolve such an unbalancing? (ok..ok... maybe beacause the solution was given by Sune, but...)
SgtAnjay
10-11-07, 02:01 PM The "balancing" is even more flawed than that.

A demi-deity left, so Sune proposes giving up an intermediate deity? How is that balanced? Also, Siamorphe is Lawful Neutral, Tymora is Chaotic Good....so they're not even complimentary in terms of alignment.
More importantly......one demi-deity leaving unbalances the planes. But at the very end, Siamorphe and Ilmater (an actual member of the Triad) have left the House of the Triad, plus Helm is dead. In return....they still only got Tymora. How is that balanced?
nestorius
10-11-07, 02:11 PM The "balancing" is even more flawed than that.

A demi-deity left, so Sune proposes giving up an intermediate deity? How is that balanced? Also, Siamorphe is Lawful Neutral, Tymora is Chaotic Good....so they're not even complimentary in terms of alignment.
More importantly......one demi-deity leaving unbalances the planes. But at the very end, Siamorphe and Ilmater (an actual member of the Triad) have left the House of the Triad, plus Helm is dead. In return....they still only got Tymora. How is that balanced?
The outcome of the whole affair was an accident and as such NOT intended to be balanced at all...
This could offer some sort of explanation about how Cyric and Shar succeded in their task...
SgtAnjay
10-11-07, 02:34 PM You dont get the point....
You're right, the end state wasn't intented by the gods, and so wasn't balanced like the gods intended.
But if the "cosmic balance" was threatened by the simple act of Siamorphe moving, how could the end state they ended up with, which was a great deal more unbalanced, not require even more moving and shuffling and marraiges and alliances, etc, etc?? It would threaten this "cosmic balance" more than Siamorphe ever could.

The plot is inconsistant. The authors created a brand new concept of "cosmic balance", in order to get a certain result......but the result contradicts the very "cosmic balance" they created to cause the result. It makes no sense, and is simple put poor writing above and beyond everyone acting out of character.
nestorius
10-11-07, 02:49 PM You dont get the point....
You're right, the end state wasn't intented by the gods, and so wasn't balanced like the gods intended.
But if the "cosmic balance" was threatened by the simple act of Siamorphe moving, how could the end state they ended up with, which was a great deal more unbalanced, not require even more moving and shuffling and marraiges and alliances, etc, etc?? It would threaten this "cosmic balance" more than Siamorphe ever could.

I think I get your point, and yes the "cosmic balance" is really more threatened. I was simply suggesting that this unbalanced status could justify the killing of Mistra: the celestial powers, still suffering from these events can't foresee what Cyric and Shar were up to

The plot is inconsistant. The authors created a brand new concept of "cosmic balance", in order to get a certain result......but the result contradicts the very "cosmic balance" they created to cause the result. It makes no sense, and is simple put poor writing above and beyond everyone acting out of character.

Agreed! Deus ex machina at work... :)
MarkusTay63
10-11-07, 03:27 PM This is the funniest thing I've read in a long time. Nice.I try to sprinkle levity into all my negativity.

Its what makes me Chaotic-Neutral. ;)
SgtAnjay
10-11-07, 03:31 PM I think I get your point, and yes the "cosmic balance" is really more threatened. I was simply suggesting that this unbalanced status could justify the killing of Mistra: the celestial powers, still suffering from these events can't foresee what Cyric and Shar were up toEwwww....hadn't thought of that. Thats....wow, that's even worse. A flawed event with out of character actions whose plot is contradictory is the cause of an event that seems far fetched?
Of course, the deities in the House of the Triad and Brightwater are the ones affected by the events of 1384, whereas its the deities of Dweomerheart most affected by the killing of Mystra. Frankly, not knowing Shar and Cyric are up to something makes plenty of sense; illusions, lies, and secrets are all portfolios in effect here. Cyric actually popping into Dweomerheart undetected (Dweomerheart home to the Mistress of the Weave, a deific wizard who is the supreme spellcaster, the deity of divination, and the plotting deity of necromancy) and getting close enough to Mystra to do the deed before anyone can react is the big question in the Year of Blue Fire.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nestorius 10-10-07, 12:23 PM	Hi ! I need help about a sentence on page 159 of "The grand history of the Realms": "With the Triad broken because of Helm's death, Ilmater chooses to ..." :confused: But the Triad was not the Tyr-Torm-Ilmater alliance?? Thanks!
customdrapery 10-10-07, 12:37 PM	Indeed, the Triad was made up of Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater. My interpretation of that line was that because Torm and Helm have an alliance and with Tyr killing Helm, Torm was pretty cheesed off and left the service of Tyr. Ilmater also disappointed by his boss' actions, leaves. Just my $0.02, but the whole thing is badly worked out and it reads much better if you replace all mentions of Helm by Torm. That would make more sense as to why the Triad was broken by these actions.
Old Sage 10-10-07, 12:42 PM	Hi ! I need help about a sentence on page 159 of "The grand history of the Realms": "With the Triad broken because of Helm's death, Ilmater chooses to ..." :confused: But the Triad was not the Tyr-Torm-Ilmater alliance?? Thanks!Errr... the relationship between Torm and Ilmater, and their roles as servitors to Tyr, is the basis of the Triad.
nestorius 10-10-07, 01:02 PM	Indeed, the Triad was made up of Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater. My interpretation of that line was that because Torm and Helm have an alliance and with Tyr killing Helm, Torm was pretty cheesed off and left the service of Tyr. Ilmater also disappointed by his boss' actions, leaves. Just my $0.02, but the whole thing is badly worked out and it reads much better if you replace all mentions of Helm by Torm. That would make more sense as to why the Triad was broken by these actions. I agree with you! And also with your second suggestion: with Torm instead of Helm, the whole affair could be even more dramatic! (In fact, this was the real thing I wish to discuss in this thread... But my english is not so good :) ) More... Why Tymora? Tyr's Justice in not a matter of Luck... :P
customdrapery 10-10-07, 01:57 PM	When I first read that passage, my initial thought was that whoever wrote it didn't remember that it was Torm who was part of the Triad and not Helm. Now that it's published, they got stuck with the switch. The whole debacle kind of makes more sense if Torm was sent by Tyr to deliver messages to Tymora and when he was accused of stealing Tymora's heart, he felt he had betrayed his own sense of loyalty. Thus, the battle between he and Tyr. Then with the Triad truly broken, Ilmater takes off. I think the whole thing is kind of poorly worked out on several levels: 1. Why would Tyr care that Siamorphe was mad at him. He's a greater god, she's a demi-god who (basically) has worshipers in Waterdeep. 2. Why would such a disagreement cause any sort of unbalance. Gods disagree all the time. 3. Why would a marriage between a CG goddess and a LG god be at all useful. It seems like a recipe for disaster on my part. 4. Do gods even get married? Lathander and Chauntea are "close" but that's it. I personally am going to ignore the last couple of columns of aGHotR, they should just have replaced all those bits with a nice index. And I still think they mixed up Helm and Torm.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-10-07, 02:09 PM	3. Why would a marriage between a CG goddess and a LG god be at all useful. It seems like a recipe for disaster on my part. It doesn't have to be! But I still agree that this plot development makes little sense.
customdrapery 10-10-07, 04:41 PM	You're right, a union between a LG and a CG doesn't have to be a disaster, but the stern Tyr and the fickle Tymora seem like a pretty unlikely pairing. I guess I'm just venting my dislike of that specific turn of events. If they wanted to kill some gods then by all means have an all-out godswar, but the individual picking off of gods seems silly. Okay, destroying some planes when Mystra dies is kind of neat, but I would have preferred a different method for pairing down the pantheon. Again, just my $0.02.
Keahi19 10-10-07, 05:21 PM	I personally think they've been going overboard with changes it seems. I mean really can they take it any further in insanity? Probably.
nestorius 10-10-07, 06:20 PM	Well... I'm guessing if, for some reason still unknown, Helm subsumed Torm's portfolio becoming part of the Triad, with Tyr and Ilmater... Maybe Torm died in some heroic quest... but this is just a guessing.
Selvarin 10-10-07, 06:57 PM	I prefer Torm over Helm (although I don't really have a problem with Helm either). Perhaps it is just a name error. If not, perhaps Tyr broke some sacred part of the agreement among the Triad, namely giving in to needless conflicts with other lawful non-evils. Or perhaps they had a deal not to let female deities cause trouble. You know, the Yoko factor. ;)
Muddman72 10-10-07, 06:58 PM	There is actually a reason why Helm works better than Torm for this story. This stuff is from long, long ago, back in 2nd ed at least. Helm was in love with and betrothed to Tyche, the goddess of luck. She was the goddess of all luck, good and bad. Then the Dawn cataclysm happened, some cosmic event where Lathander attempted to destroy all evil in the multiverse. This event killed several gods, including Tyche. Tyche, as a result, was split into two beings, Tymora (goddess of good luck) and Basheeba (sp?) (goddess of bad luck). She wasn't the same though, and it broke Helm's heart. Ever since, Helm has been a stoic and cold man. With this bckstory in place, the idea that Helm captured Tymora's heart is alot more plausible. All the gods know that Helm was betrothed to Tyche, so him convincing Tymora isn't such a stretch. It probably also infuriated Tyr to hear that Helm, his buddy, was actually smoozing her since he is her ex-fiance. Now why was the Triad broken? I think Ilmater felt that the ideals of their pact were broken with Helm's death. The Triad isn't an organization, its an alliance based off of mutual respect and service to Justice. Since Helm was innocent, his death was an act of vengence, not justice, so Ilmater left as an act of silent protest. Torm is the god of honorable combat, so I think he maybe honor bound to stand by the duel's result since it was a fair fight, just a stupid one. This is obviously only a guess and I agree it should have been written better in the book entry. As for how Tyr and Tymora works, I can't think of why it wouldn't. Its not like it was a marriage between justice and injustice, its just justice and luck, which don't conflict in anyway I can see. Just my two copper :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-10-07, 07:10 PM	Actually, wasn't it Murdane whom Helm loved?
MarkusTay63 10-10-07, 07:21 PM	Errr... the relationship between Torm and Ilmater, and their roles as servitors to Tyr, is the basis of the Triad.Maybe they just grew Tyred of him? :D More... Why Tymora? Tyr's Justice in not a matter of Luck... :PBecause they both liked Ty food? :rolleyes:
Suin Bahhar 10-10-07, 07:24 PM	Actually, wasn't it Murdane whom Helm loved? I thought so too.
Strife026 10-10-07, 07:50 PM	I think you are mistaken about the Helm-Tyche love affair. As far as i know, it was Lathander who was courting/engaged to Tyche. There is even a novel about Lathander trying to rejoin Beshaba and Tymora to create Tyche all over. I believe the book is Tymora's Luck.
Storm_Silverhand 10-10-07, 08:03 PM	Heya, Helm was in love with and betrothed to Tyche, the goddess of luck. She was the goddess of all luck, good and bad. Then the Dawn cataclysm happened, some cosmic event where Lathander attempted to destroy all evil in the multiverse. This event killed several gods, including Tyche. Tyche, as a result, was split into two beings, Tymora (goddess of good luck) and Basheeba (sp?) (goddess of bad luck). She wasn't the same though, and it broke Helm's heart. Ever since, Helm has been a stoic and cold man. Nope, that was Lathander, not Helm, in love with Tyche. (And not betrothed... I just can't see Tyche, or Tymora or Beshaba, being tied down that way!) Lathander and Tyche were lovers, but Lathander was so caught up on his Dawn Crusade he pretty much brushed Tyche off when she wanted some alone time with him. So she kissed him with misfortune and wandered off around the Realms. Eventually she found a single beautiful flower growing out of rocky ground. She thought it was an appeasement gift from Lathander... So she tried to pick it. The stem would not break. Eventually, in frustration, Tyche cursed it, and it came free. She put the flower in her hair and merrily went on her way, not knowing that the flower was, in fact, Moander. While she wandered, Moander slowly rotted her from within. When she returned home, she came across her dear friend Selune, along with Lathander (who wanted to make up with her) and Azuth (who had agreed to mediate between them). One look was all Selune needed to know something was horribly wrong, and as she blasted the rotten thing Tyche had become, she wept. The purifying light tore the rotted shell of Tyche in two, and from each half stepped Tymora and Beshaba. This is mostly from memory, but the full story can be found in Faiths and Avatars (the 2nd Edition God book) under Beshaba.
customdrapery 10-11-07, 10:14 AM	Muddman72, your scenario would make much more sense if indeed Helm was in love with Tyche, but like the others have said, Helm was with Murdane and it was Lathander who was in love with Tyche. Murdane died during the Dawn Cataclysm (and it's mentioned in aGHotR that she drowned). Which I believe is why he's so stoic and uncaring. Plus, he's upset with Lathander, not Tyr. Does anyone know if any of the gods are married or have been married in the past? Obviously the gods have children (Bane - Xvim, Silvanus - possibly Eldath, Valigan Thirdborn must have been the son of someone), but that doesn't mean they were married. Just curious if there's precedence for the Tymora-Tyr union. I agree with you though that the Triad could be broken up by a variety of things, especially the Lawful and Good big boss guy taking out a Lawful god with whom he had no previous argument. If it was so easy to take out gods, why don't the good greater gods just gang up and take out all the others like Malar and Loviatar and Talona, etc. Or vice versa. Originally posted by MarkusTay63: Maybe they just grew Tyred of him? Because they both liked Ty food? This is the funniest thing I've read in a long time. Nice.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-11-07, 10:37 AM	I've gotten the impression that the vast majority of gods don't marry, and aren't interested in marriage (even if they ARE interested in having lovers).
SgtAnjay 10-11-07, 10:55 AM	Only gods I'm aware of as being married are Osiris and Isis of the Mulhorandi pantheon, and Annam and Othea of the giant patheon (and that one didn't end very well at all).
nestorius 10-11-07, 01:34 PM	It is stange that, while they explain the actions of Ilmater after the killing of Helm, nothing is said about Torm... Maybe he simply remain loyal to Tyr... but I think this silence about him is because: 1) As customdrapery said: It is an error and you have to read Torm instead of Helm 2) Torm is no more (Maybe killed by Bane for revenge of what happened during the Time of Trouble, maybe dead doing something heroic) and Helm is now part of the Triad. Otherwise nothing could REALLY explain the breaking of the alliance. The other questions still unanswered are: -Why should the leaving of a demi-god unbalance the celestial planes? -Why should be a marriage between gods the only way to resolve such an unbalancing? (ok..ok... maybe beacause the solution was given by Sune, but...)
SgtAnjay 10-11-07, 02:01 PM	The "balancing" is even more flawed than that. A demi-deity left, so Sune proposes giving up an intermediate deity? How is that balanced? Also, Siamorphe is Lawful Neutral, Tymora is Chaotic Good....so they're not even complimentary in terms of alignment. More importantly......one demi-deity leaving unbalances the planes. But at the very end, Siamorphe and Ilmater (an actual member of the Triad) have left the House of the Triad, plus Helm is dead. In return....they still only got Tymora. How is that balanced?
nestorius 10-11-07, 02:11 PM	The "balancing" is even more flawed than that. A demi-deity left, so Sune proposes giving up an intermediate deity? How is that balanced? Also, Siamorphe is Lawful Neutral, Tymora is Chaotic Good....so they're not even complimentary in terms of alignment. More importantly......one demi-deity leaving unbalances the planes. But at the very end, Siamorphe and Ilmater (an actual member of the Triad) have left the House of the Triad, plus Helm is dead. In return....they still only got Tymora. How is that balanced? The outcome of the whole affair was an accident and as such NOT intended to be balanced at all... This could offer some sort of explanation about how Cyric and Shar succeded in their task...
SgtAnjay 10-11-07, 02:34 PM	You dont get the point.... You're right, the end state wasn't intented by the gods, and so wasn't balanced like the gods intended. But if the "cosmic balance" was threatened by the simple act of Siamorphe moving, how could the end state they ended up with, which was a great deal more unbalanced, not require even more moving and shuffling and marraiges and alliances, etc, etc?? It would threaten this "cosmic balance" more than Siamorphe ever could. The plot is inconsistant. The authors created a brand new concept of "cosmic balance", in order to get a certain result......but the result contradicts the very "cosmic balance" they created to cause the result. It makes no sense, and is simple put poor writing above and beyond everyone acting out of character.
nestorius 10-11-07, 02:49 PM	You dont get the point.... You're right, the end state wasn't intented by the gods, and so wasn't balanced like the gods intended. But if the "cosmic balance" was threatened by the simple act of Siamorphe moving, how could the end state they ended up with, which was a great deal more unbalanced, not require even more moving and shuffling and marraiges and alliances, etc, etc?? It would threaten this "cosmic balance" more than Siamorphe ever could. I think I get your point, and yes the "cosmic balance" is really more threatened. I was simply suggesting that this unbalanced status could justify the killing of Mistra: the celestial powers, still suffering from these events can't foresee what Cyric and Shar were up to The plot is inconsistant. The authors created a brand new concept of "cosmic balance", in order to get a certain result......but the result contradicts the very "cosmic balance" they created to cause the result. It makes no sense, and is simple put poor writing above and beyond everyone acting out of character. Agreed! Deus ex machina at work... :)
MarkusTay63 10-11-07, 03:27 PM	This is the funniest thing I've read in a long time. Nice.I try to sprinkle levity into all my negativity. Its what makes me Chaotic-Neutral. ;)
SgtAnjay 10-11-07, 03:31 PM	I think I get your point, and yes the "cosmic balance" is really more threatened. I was simply suggesting that this unbalanced status could justify the killing of Mistra: the celestial powers, still suffering from these events can't foresee what Cyric and Shar were up toEwwww....hadn't thought of that. Thats....wow, that's even worse. A flawed event with out of character actions whose plot is contradictory is the cause of an event that seems far fetched? Of course, the deities in the House of the Triad and Brightwater are the ones affected by the events of 1384, whereas its the deities of Dweomerheart most affected by the killing of Mystra. Frankly, not knowing Shar and Cyric are up to something makes plenty of sense; illusions, lies, and secrets are all portfolios in effect here. Cyric actually popping into Dweomerheart undetected (Dweomerheart home to the Mistress of the Weave, a deific wizard who is the supreme spellcaster, the deity of divination, and the plotting deity of necromancy) and getting close enough to Mystra to do the deed before anyone can react is the big question in the Year of Blue Fire.