Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meldread 04-12-07, 07:25 PM	We know that Spellfire is a method of utilizing raw magic, and therefore is outside the control of either the Weave or the Shadow Weave. To quote Magic of Faerun (page 17): "Spellfire is refined, controlled, raw magic." So utilizing raw magic, in one form or another is possible. The problem is really two fold: First the Weave (and Shadow Weave) acting as both a barrier and a tool for raw magic. Second using raw magic is dangerous and deadly and is the reason the Weave exists in the first place. In effect, this means that the Weave can be used to access and use raw magic in a more controlled form, but at the same time, the Weave blocks direct access to raw magic. However, what if someone found a way to bypass the Weave and Shadow Weave entirely and access Raw Magic directly. If they were strong enough could it be possible to control raw magic to cast spells? Obviously, it would be dangerous and deadly... but could also have enough advantages to be worthwhile. Do you wonderful folks here think it is possible?
Lord Karsus 04-12-07, 07:59 PM	-Since Spellfire exists, there is precident for manipulating raw magic. Thus, I'd say that it's possible for there to be alternatives to Spellfire. Of course, there is nothing canon, but there's no real reason to say there can't be.
Meldread 04-12-07, 09:15 PM	I'm not talking about alternatives to Spellfire. I am talking about actually physically casting spells from Raw Magic itself, just as you would cast from the Weave. (Although it would no doubt be extremely dangerous to the point that a small mistake could likely result in death.) Spellfire only proves that raw magic can be refined and controlled by mortals, and I view it as a power analogous to the powers of a Sorcerer. The existence of Spellfire also proves that there is a way to circumvent the barrier of the Weave/Shadow Weave to access raw magic directly. The most obvious benefit, of course, is the ability to access 10+ level magic.
BrennonGoldeye 04-12-07, 09:18 PM	Be warned Meldread, Raw magic can be a thin ice subject in these parts. ;)
Dielzen 04-12-07, 11:11 PM	Based on a reading of the text regarding Spellfire in the 3e books, it states that Spellfire is "controlled" raw magic...I can't see someone creating "Raw Magic Spells" if they call spellfire "controlled." Casting regular spells = tappin the (Shadow) Weave, so I can't see casting a "Raw Magic Cone of Cold" On the other hand, an uncontrolled method of utilizing Raw Magic sounds interesting. "Spellfire Wild Mage" *cackles gleefully*
GothicDan 04-12-07, 11:15 PM	I'm not talking about alternatives to Spellfire. I am talking about actually physically casting spells from Raw Magic itself, just as you would cast from the Weave. (Although it would no doubt be extremely dangerous to the point that a small mistake could likely result in death.) Shaping magical energy into spells would be making it no longer raw. You'd most likely just cause a maelstrom of energy that would tear apart reality until a Greater God stopped it (Mystra).
Meldread 04-12-07, 11:49 PM	True, but the point is to take the raw magic, refine it and control it in such a way that you can cast spells directly without having to worry about any Weaves. This would, in effect, make you a Weave unto yourself. You would not have to worry about dead magic or wild magic areas. You'd be able to cast 10+ level spells. You wouldn't have to worry about being denied access by one of the controllers of a Weave, nor have them snooping around on the magic your casting. Of course, the downside is that if you screw up... even a little... you could die. Instantly. And likely - as you said GothicDan - "cause a maelstrom of energy that would tear apart reality".
Dielzen 04-13-07, 12:03 AM	I'm just gonna have to come out and say it...."no" take the raw magic, refine it and control it You want raw magic or refined/controlled magic? Take your pick, not both :confused:
Meldread 04-13-07, 12:35 AM	Perhaps I should have been more clear in my original post, and for that I apologize. Obviously, to make use of raw magic you have to "shape it" (refine and control) to do what you want. This is what Spellfire does, essentially. This is a supernatural gift that certain individuals are born with, similar to a Sorcerers supernatural connection to the Weave, Spellfire Wielders may have a supernatural connection to Raw Magic. Raw Magic in its current state cannot be used because it is dangerous and this is why the Weave is so important. The Weave acts as both a barrier and a method upon which an individual can draw upon Raw Magic - effectively "controlling and refining it" for you. Perhaps an example would work best. Let's say you want to use a computer. You have the option of a few different operating systems - Windows (the Weave) and Linux (the Shadow Weave). In either case you are effectively working in an user friendly environment with the bulk of the "nuts and bolts" of how the computer is working is hidden from you. You don't have to think about all the 1's and 0's or computer programming code. Sure, occasionally there might be a problem - the system might crash (dead magic / wild magic zones) but over all... most of all the inner workings of the computer is hidden from you. It isn't necessary for you to know. However, let's say you want to be an advanced user. In fact, you want to excel far beyond what the operating system currently allows (cast 10+ level magic). To do this you need to go around the operating system and go to a more basic level such as Dos or Unix (in the Realm's it'd be Raw Magic). In effect if you want to bypass the artificial constraints imposed upon you by the Weave you need to bypass it entirely. This would require going directly to Raw Magic. Like using Dos you could end up typing in a wrong command, and sometimes you just get an error (nothing happens) or sometimes you might type in something really bad such as "Format C:" (end up killing yourself). Most of this is preventable through using an operating system, and bypassing that would require a more advanced user. So, to answer your question - I am talking about using raw magic that is then refined and controlled by the wielder. It would require knowledge that is greater than that of the average Weave user. If you take a look at Netheril: Empire of Magic, you can see that magic changed a bit more than simply not allowing 10th level spells. To quote (page 22): "Perhaps the greatest change in spellcasting deals with damage limits for spells: there are none. A fireball spell cast by a 40th level arcanist delivers a devastating 40d6 points of damage (with a saving throw vs. half still applicable). A magic missile spell cast by a 30th level arcanist produces 15 missiles that inflict 1d4+1 points of damage each. The removal of damage maximums applies to all spells, including priestly magic."
Dielzen 04-13-07, 12:49 AM	You can have spells that do more damage than normally allowed using the current rule system. Enhance Spell [Epic] (And yes I'm aware this won't pump up MMs) Beyond that, I reiterate an earlier point...spellfire is what they call "controlled" and that's not really that controlled. Uncontrolled Raw Magic would basically be something like a % chance for every exertion to flare out with magic, and the results would be completely random. I can easily see how to operate something like that, but Raw Magic powering Magic Missiles....to use your analogy, you want to run WinXP on a 286.
Meldread 04-13-07, 01:12 AM	That's true, however I was thinking of having it work something along the lines of... ...every time you are casting magic and are required to make a concentration check, if you fail you have to roll on a table similar to the Wild Magic Table. (However, the results would be far worse.) I'd likely change how magic works for the caster, as well as introducing the notion of strain as I would imagine refining and controlling Raw Magic would be very taxing on the mind and body. However, what I really want to know is if it was theoretically possible based on established lore. As in, there are no actual physical barriers other than the existence of the Weave and the danger of harnessing the power of raw magic itself. I would imagine the Church of Mystra would be opposed to this as not only would it be dangerous to the individual and those around them, but also it would completely circumvent her reason for existing all together.
Stigger 04-13-07, 02:14 AM	Well, if I can make a suggestion, I would take a serious look at the older World of Darkness stuff for Mage: the Ascension and scope out the magic rules in there, maybe figure out a way to convert them to d20, and run with that. That seems a lot like Raw Magic given form to me, personally. Take a look at the Core Rulebook for the basic stuff, and Masters of the Art for the epic world shattering (kinda literally in some cases) stuff, don't really need anything other than those two. Hard to quantify from a d20 standpoint, and almost certainly enough to give DM's not familiar with the Storyteller system a heart attack, but it seems a good fit for what you're getting at, and could at least give some inspiration for you.
Derren S. 04-13-07, 03:40 AM	If you only want to bypass the (shadow) waeve and its limitation you are probably better of leeching magic from a other plane through a small gate on your person or something like this.
Karsus the Mad 04-13-07, 06:56 AM	We know that Spellfire is a method of utilizing raw magic, and therefore is outside the control of either the Weave or the Shadow Weave. To quote Magic of Faerun (page 17): "Spellfire is refined, controlled, raw magic." So utilizing raw magic, in one form or another is possible. Actually, we don't know since "raw magic" and "raw weave energy" is used so interchangably in texts discussing Spellfire, despite being two different things. The FRCS, page 56 "Spellfire is the raw energy of the Weave.". However, under the same section it also says "Spellfire in any form is refined, controlled raw magic." Then the passage in MoF you qouted says it's "refined, controlled, raw magic", but then the Spellfire Channeler prestige class refers to it as "raw energy of the Weave". Also, the FRCS says raw magic is locked away in all matter and inaccessable to mortals, yet MoF says it's possible for a mortal to harness raw magic, but that it's extremely dangerous. My own take on it is that it's raw magic dumped, and in some manner controlled and refined via the Weave, thus isn't "pure" raw magic, but is the closet a mortal is going to come to it. However, there is a tenuous (very tenuous) part of Mystryl's writeup in NEoM that could be suggestive of a mortal being able to "bypass" the Weave and harness what might be raw magic directly. She couldn’t be affected by less than the most powerful magics—which reached beyond the Weave to attempt to draw upon her very nature, the stuff of magic itself—
The WarOverlord 04-13-07, 07:16 AM	We know that Spellfire is a method of utilizing raw magic, and therefore is outside the control of either the Weave or the Shadow Weave. To quote Magic of Faerun (page 17): "Spellfire is refined, controlled, raw magic." So utilizing raw magic, in one form or another is possible. The problem is really two fold: First the Weave (and Shadow Weave) acting as both a barrier and a tool for raw magic. Second using raw magic is dangerous and deadly and is the reason the Weave exists in the first place. In effect, this means that the Weave can be used to access and use raw magic in a more controlled form, but at the same time, the Weave blocks direct access to raw magic. However, what if someone found a way to bypass the Weave and Shadow Weave entirely and access Raw Magic directly. If they were strong enough could it be possible to control raw magic to cast spells? Obviously, it would be dangerous and deadly... but could also have enough advantages to be worthwhile. Do you wonderful folks here think it is possible? The "Weave" and "Shadow Weave" respectively are the "interface" that the gods of magic use to control magic to mortals in the Forgotten Realms..it's that simple Elsewhere there may or may not be an "interface" or a godling controlling what kinds of magic can and can't be used and the "Ether" is taken in via "the flow" into the respective realms and used by the Mages and Sorcerers and Preservers, spiritualist,etc by what ever means they can to turn raw "ether" into effects on reality, the body, and the mind Yes, a Sossorian Mage using the Ether directly to cast fireball isn't going to be Sinificantly different then a Torillian Mage casting a Fireball,but without being limited by the Weave the Mage from any other Realm will have more free play in which the kind of Magic he or she can study. And know. While the ability to asorb raw magical power is a defining Character of Spellfire weilders, note that they draw the power from Magic Items and magical attacks on them and are not tapping into ""the flow" or bypassing the weave to draw there power. basically the "Raw Magic" is gotten from Spells that got pass the "Weave" in it's controlled Spell form Hmmm... Asorbing raw magic then reworking it into another spell. Sounds a bit like a version of Preserverism with the only difference being that magic energy is asorbed then worked into spells instead of Life energy (which is interswitchable with magic energy as they supposedly are the same cosmic energy in a different form)
Red_Wizard 04-13-07, 01:20 PM	From my understanding, Raw Magic is the unrefined weave. It's like salt before the parts are combined to form it. In their raw form they're toxic, but combined, usable. Mystra prevents the use of Raw magic as it is two draining on the weave. Those select few that can wield Spell and Silver fire, are more like drains, or taps on a Dam, allowing the overflow to run off harmlessly. From my understanding, this is also why the Chosen exist post Netherese fall. Before the fall the use of 10th plus spells, drew heavily upon the weave, and was most likely more closely related to casting with pure raw magic. But, with the whole folly thing no one was draining her anymore, and thus the chosen, who are vassals of her overflow. ( And I am aware that she also created them partially as a safeguard against the ToT's incedent, much like Bhaal and his spawn, and Bane and his son.) So basically what I am getting at is no, I doubt very much you could tap raw weave, and get away with it let alone survive. This being said, I have recently been pondering on a way to cast spells without tapping either weave, and I have an idea in mind that might work.
Mirtek 04-13-07, 01:34 PM	No, raw magic was there before the weave. The weave is not a true source of magic, the weave is merely the filter through which the true magic is drawn. A mortal trying to acces raw magic, without using the weave as a condom, would fry himself with the casting of the most simple cantrip.
Meldread 04-13-07, 02:26 PM	Since this is debatable, I went ahead and created an alternate magic system to access raw magic. Some critique would be appreciated. It seems to me that this should be theoretically possible, but the major deterrent is the difficulty of accessing raw magic and the danger involved. I've tried to simulate this properly in the system. -------- I would imagine drawing upon raw magic would require a feat similar to taking the Shadow Weave, but this feat would have to be taken at character creation. Tapping into Raw Magic isn't something you do later in your career as using raw magic alters the way you view magic as a whole. It would be like someone trying to run a Windows program on a Macintosh. The Arcanist who draws upon raw magic must know how to refine and control it to cast spells. Even a little raw magic can be deadly if used improperly, but the benefits of using raw magic are worthwhile. An arcanist who decides to use this method would no doubt look down upon someone who uses Weaves, similar to an elitist computer nerd who prefers to work from a command line rather than in an interfaced environment. Weaves have natural built-in blocks to prevent an arcanist from becoming overstrained, but those who bypass the weaves have no such built-in function. Refining and controlling raw magic is a taxing process on both the mind and body, and this is represented through strain. Below is the table used for spellcasting for wizards, sorcerers, druids and clerics. Strain <--------------------------------Strain Cost-------------------------------> LVL Tolerance 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 11th 1 +0 2 4 - - - - - - - - - - 2 +0 2 4 - - - - - - - - - - 3 +1 1 3 6 - - - - - - - - - 4 +1 1 3 6 - - - - - - - - - 5 +2 0 3 5 6 - - - - - - - - 6 +2 0 2 5 6 - - - - - - - - 7 +3 0 2 4 5 8 - - - - - - - 8 +3 0 2 4 5 8 - - - - - - - 9 +4 0 1 3 4 7 10 - - - - - - 10 +4 0 1 3 4 7 10 - - - - - - 11 +5 0 1 2 3 6 8 10 - - - - - 12 +5 0 0 2 3 6 8 10 - - - - - 13 +6 0 0 1 2 5 7 8 10 - - - - 14 +6 0 0 1 2 5 7 8 10 - - - - 15 +7 0 0 0 1 4 6 7 8 10 - - - 16 +7 0 0 0 1 4 6 7 8 10 - - - 17 +8 0 0 0 0 3 5 6 7 8 10 - - 18 +8 0 0 0 0 3 5 6 7 8 10 - - 19 +9 0 0 0 0 2 4 5 6 7 8 10 - 20 +9 0 0 0 0 2 4 5 6 7 8 10 - So what does the above table mean? The above table is for wizards, druids, clerics and sorcerers and it is divided into three sections. I'll explain each section below. Level: This is the character's arcanist level, not total level. A character who is Wizard 4 / Rogue 1 only counts as level 4 on this table. However arcanist levels increase as normal so a character who is Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 3 counts as a level 6 for the purposes of this table for both Cleric and Wizard levels. Strain Tolerance: As a character gains levels his body and mind become more adjusted to refining and controlling raw magic, allowing him to draw upon and use even more. This is represented by strain tolerance, and the numbers are cumulative. This means that a level 8 Wizard will have a total of +12 added to his base strain tolerance. (Sorcerers Note: Sorcerers gain +2 to their Strain Tolerance progression on the table. Therefore, +0 becomes +2 and +1 becomes +3, etc.) Strain Cost: This brings us to strain cost, which is based on spell level. Casting spells causes a strain to be placed on the caster that, over time, the caster can become adjusted to as he learns to refine and control a greater amount of raw magic. Base Strain Tolerance: For Wizards their base strain tolerance is 5 + Intelligence Modifier. For Clerics and Druids their base strain tolerance is 5 + Wisdom Modifier. For Sorcerers their base strain tolerance is 8 + Charisma Modifier. For Bards their strain tolerance is 4 + Charisma Modifier. For Rangers and Paladins their strain tolerance is 3 + Wisdom Modifier. Overstrain: Whenever a caster uses magic they subtract strain from their total strain tolerance, which is their base strain tolerance added to their strain tolerance which accumulates with caster levels. At some point, they will experience Overstrain, which is when the caster overextends himself bringing his strain tolerance into negative numbers. When this happens he must make a successful concentration check in order to properly cast the spell, if he fails the check then he must roll on a concentration check (detailed below). A caster may continue to cast spells even after he runs out of strain tolerance, however for every 10 negative points of strain tolerance he must make a Fortitude Save of DC 20 to remain conscious. If he fails the Fortitude Save he blacks out for 2d6 hours. Resting: Resting allows the caster to not only prepare prayers / spells but also recover strain tolerance. For every eight hours of rest a character receives, he can recover up to a maximum of his total strain tolerance. If his strain tolerance is in the negatives this carries over and he may continue resting to recover fully. Concentration Checks: Refining and controlling raw magic is dangerous. As a result casting spells requires a characters full attention. If distracted while casting a spell the character must make a concentration check of DC 2 * Spell Level + Concentration DC as per the Players Handbook. If the player fails the check he must roll 1d100 and be effected as per the Concentration Failure Table below. Concentration Failure Table 0-10 The caster fails to refine the raw magic and it flows through their body unsteadily. This causes 1d6 points of damage per spell level. The spell fails. 11-20 Raw magic explodes out from the caster damaging the caster and all around him in a 20 foot radius for 1d6 points of damage per spell level. The caster himself suffers an additional 2d6 points of damage. The spell fails. 21-40 The caster loses control but still manages to refine the raw magic. The caster must then roll another 1d100 on the Wild Magic Table in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book. 41-50 The caster successfully casts the spell, however suffers 1d6 points of damage per spell level. 51-70 The caster successfully casts a spell, but it has the opposite of the desired effect. Meaning, that if a caster was trying to cast cure critical wounds, the recipient of the spell would take damage for the amount they would have been healed by. If the caster was trying to cast a strength-enhancing spell, it subtracts strength instead of adding it. If the caster was trying to cast a damage-dealing spell, it heals instead of causing harm. If the spell has no opposite effect then it simply fails and the caster suffers 1d6 points of damage per spell level. 71-80 The caster fails to successfully cast the spell and raw magic consumes their body, killing them instantly. 81-95 The caster experiences a strain surge, and suffers a 1d20 point strain tolerance loss. If this brings the caster into negative strain, he must make another successful concentration check with an additional 5 DC added. 96-100 The caster fails to successfully cast the spell and raw magic consumes their body, killing them instantly, but also rips open a hole in any and all weaves within a 2d6 foot radius of the caster. Any and all who are near the hole must make a fortitude save of 2 DC + the Spell Level of the spell cast. If they fail the fortitude save, they too are killed instantly. This check is made for every round they remain near the hole. The hole functions as a black hole, slowly growing 1d6 feet in size per minute. The area around the hole in a 1d6 mile radius becomes a wild magic area for all weaves, while the area of the hole functions as a dead magic zone. In addition to the above any who have an intimate connection with a Weave are instantly aware of the problem. This would include both Shar and Mystra, as well as the Chosen, but also other powerful spell casters who have used a Weave for over 100 years. They will be able too instantly pinpoint the exact location of the hole as long as they have access to one of the affected Weaves. (This means that a Chosen will be made aware of the problem as long as they are on the Prime Material Plane or in Dweomerheart.) They will not be able to discern the nature of the problem (although Shar and Mystra will), but will continuously be made aware of it until the hole is patched. The hole may only be repaired by either Shar, Mystra or with a Miracle or Wish spell. Once the hole is closed the wild magic zone can be repaired through the use of another Wish or Miracle spell, and the dead magic zone left behind by the hole can repaired in the same way. The wild magic and dead magic zone cannot be repaired for as long as the hole is in existence, and it will continue to grow until repaired. Memorizing Spells/Preparing Prayers: This functions just as it normally would. A wizard must familiarize himself ahead of time; the Cleric must also make prayers to his deity requesting certain blessings in advance. Bards and Sorcerers do not need to prepare and may cast any spell they wish from any of their known spells. Rangers, Druids and Paladins like the Cleric must request blessings in advance. Note on Bards, Rangers and Paladins: Bards receive a significant advantage by having the ability to cast any known spell like a sorcerer. As a result of this they use the Ranger and Paladin spell progression table which is below. Rangers and Paladins, as a result of being more likely to have to make a concentration check have the ability to expand beyond 4th level spells. Their spell chart is detailed below. Strain <--------------------------------Strain Cost-------------------------------> LVL Tolerance 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 1 +0 - - - - - - - 2 +0 - - - - - - - 3 +0 - - - - - - - 4 +0 3 6 - - - - - 5 +1 3 6 - - - - - 6 +1 3 6 - - - - - 7 +2 2 5 6 - - - - 8 +2 2 5 6 - - - - 9 +3 2 5 6 - - - - 10 +3 1 4 5 - - - - 11 +4 1 4 5 8 - - - 12 +4 1 4 5 8 - - - 13 +5 0 3 4 8 - - - 14 +5 0 3 4 7 8 - - 15 +6 0 3 4 7 8 - - 16 +6 0 2 3 7 8 - - 17 +7 0 2 3 6 7 10 - 18 +7 0 2 3 6 7 10 - 19 +8 0 1 2 6 7 10 - 20 +8 0 1 2 5 6 9 10 Benefits of the Raw Magic Caster: The most obvious benefit is the ability to cast spells more frequently and more often, to the point that a level 17 Wizard can cast any prepared third level spell as many times as he wishes per day. However primary spell casters (Druids, Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers) also have the ability to advance past 9th level magic. However, casting 10th+ level magic has a few restrictions which is detailed below. Additionally, there is no imposed cap on damage dealing spells, therefore a fireball spell cast by a 40th level wizard delivers a devastating 40d6 points of damage (with a saving throw vs. half still applicable). Or a magic missile spell cast by a 30th level wizard produces 15 missiles that inflict 1d4+1 points of damage each. The removal of damage maximums applies to all spells, including priestly magic. It does not, however, effect healing spells. Casting 10th+ Level Magic: All 10th level spells require time to research and develop. Sorcerers may cast 10th level magic, but it is highly dangerous for them. Wizards may develop 10th level spells but it requires time and research. Clerics and Druids may only cast 10th level spells if granted the ability by their deity. All 10th level spells must meet DM approval. Additionally, all spells 10th level and over require a Concentration Check to be made and a length of time to cast. The DC for the Concentration Check is based upon the spell. If the caster is interrupted during the casting of the spell then the DC for the spell casting is added to the DC needed to keep their concentration.
Dielzen 04-13-07, 04:35 PM	So I can make a 19ftr/brd1 and have unlimited CLWs? :plotting: (Bards pay nothing in Strain til 4th level) If a Concentration check is normal 15+spell level, it's now 2+spell level+spell level+15 = 17 + 2*spell level? That's rough.
Meldread 04-13-07, 05:50 PM	No. Bards don't even get access to spells until 4th level. My mistake, I did the table incorrectly. Those zero's should have been "-". It is corrected now, apologies. I would envision utilizing raw magic would feel something like... at first you sense something locked away, something hard like ice and hundreds of times more cold. Yet if you press against it, and apply pressure the outer shell breaks and a torrent of energy comes rushing toward you; then suddenly it feels like you're trapped in the middle of the most violent storm imaginable. The magical energy is chaotic, uncontrolled and it pours into your body to be utilized; it feels like you are at the eye of the storm and your mind and body is being torn apart in every direction. Yet, at the same time you have to ignore that and remain focused. You have to take the chaos and shape it... control it... refine it and direct it as the spell dictates. This is why when you are distracted it requires a concentration check. It's a Normal Concentration Check DC + Raw Magic Concentration Check DC = DC needed to successfully cast the spell If you are grappled or pinned and you -can- cast a spell it will normally require a DC of 20 + the spell level. Let's say you're trying to cast a level 5 spell while pinned to the ground. This will require you to successfully make a concentration DC check of 25 normally. However, because you use raw magic, you also have to add a DC of 2 * Spell Level meaning which for a 5th level spell is 10 DC. This means you will need to make a DC check of 35 to successfully cast the spell. (On the bright side even if you fail you'd likely end up killing yourself and whoever had you pinned to the ground. :P)
Gray Richardson 04-13-07, 07:40 PM	The metaphor I always use for raw magic is that of electricity. Raw magic is like lightning, electricity in raw, unbridled form. Very powerful, not really usable for anything. The weave is like the electric company and the electrical grid that brings power to every house, business and building pretty much everywhere. When you walk into a room you just plug in your devices (spells) and you can then blow dry your hair, calculate your taxes or listen to the radio, etc. You don't have to worry too much about whether the current is 220 or 110, whether it is 60 or 50 cycles per second, the amps and watts, etc. You don't have to worry about whether your computer is going to electrocute you every time you turn it on, and aside from a few basic safety considerations (don't use your hairdryer in the bathtub, don't stick a fork in the outlet, etc.) it is a pretty much intuitive and user-friendly system for bringing you electrical power in a manner that is convenient to use. A dead magic zone is like a house with the power turned off, or the fuses blown. You can plug in devices (spells) and turn them on (cast) but they won't work because there is no power. A wild magic zone is like a house where the wiring is old and frayed and in disrepair. You can get short circuits, you can get shocked from improperly grounded wires, you can get power spikes that cause light bulbs to flare bright, or power brown-outs that cause light bulbs to dim. The wires may even heat up and cause fires. Wild magic zones are an improperly functioning area of the Weave that are desperately in need of repair. The Shadow Weave is like a competing electrical company (if you live in markets that are deregulated). The user signs up with and gets all his power from a different power station or utility company. When the power goes out in the Weave (say a line has gone down or a transformer has blown) the power may still be on across the street for the Shadow Weave user. Psionics are like carrying a magical battery around with you. Presumably it recharges every night from the Weave, but during the day you can walk around untethered to outlets and you don't have to worry about certain things, like will your psionics work in a dead magic area. Given that metaphor, raw magic is any natural source of electricity, like lightning or static sparks from petting a cat or shuffling your feet on a carpet. It can be so powerful that it blows up your TV, incinerates golfers, or stops the hearts of cattle huddling under a tree in the rain. Or it might give you a mild shock when you touch a doorknob. Raw magic is just not useful at all because it is orders of magnitude too powerful or too weak, it is not the right wattage, it is DC not AC, and it is not constant. Spellfire is not really raw magic in its purest form, it is magic from the infrastructure of the Weave, the circuits and transmission lines that the ordinary consumer is never meant to use or be allowed access to. It's more like when a power company technician manipulates the infrastructure of electricity, hooking up transformers and connecting power lines that transmit power at a thousand times the voltage of your household circuits. It's industrial grade. It's the kind of power that melts metal and arcs wildly and can burn flesh if not handled respectfully. Electricity in the power lines has to be stepped down in power by the use of transformers to levels that your home appliances can use. Raw weave magic is still channeled and useful, but much more dangerous than the timid stuff that comes from your wall outlets. That's my take on it. Hope the analogies are useful to you.
Meldread 04-13-07, 08:18 PM	I am in agreement with most of your analogies Gray. Where we differ is how we view raw magic. I agree that raw magic is like lightning, electricity in raw, unbridled form. However, I don't see it as unusable, but rather highly unstable to use in its current form. We know that raw magic can be tapped, refined and controlled because that is exactly what the Weave and Shadow Weave does. The problem with the Weave and Shadow Weave is that they also put in safeguards which, while good for the average user isn't really good for an individual who wants access to real power. In essence, I view raw magic similar to your description of Spellfire - the industrial grade, the kind of power that melts metal and arcs wildly and can burn flesh if not handled respectfully. Spellfire, in my eyes, is taking magic created by the Weave (or Shadow Weave) and then breaking it down into its raw form and then channeling it back out. Because the magic targeted at a Spellfire wielder is channeled through a Weave they don't have to tap into raw magic directly, but they are effectively transforming the magic channeled at them back into raw magic - then refining it, controlling it and finally channeling it back out for a desired effect. The key factor, it seems to me is if a mortal can bypass the Weave or Shadow Weave to tap into raw magic directly. It seems to me that this should be possible, at least in theory. Whether or not it could be handled by a mortal is more debatable. In all likelihood those who find their way around the Weave to access raw magic directly have roughly a 1 in 100 chance of surviving, but it seems to me that even though the odds are slim there has to be at least one person who has managed to successfully survive the ordeal. They might not be epic in level, but it seems that they should exist.
Dielzen 04-13-07, 08:18 PM	While I disagree completely with your underlying assumptions regarding this concept, I'm the kind of person that just assumes I'm talking to a brick wall, so I'll just try to help you balance this... Sorc gets +2 to Strain...a 1st level spell is 4 pts at 1st level. Normally a Sorc gets 2 extra spells of their highest level. And at higher levels, when stuff's 0 Strain, the 2 pts is piddling. I suggest a bonus to Strain of 1.5x the cost of the highest level they can cast (6 at 1st level, 15 at 19th). Also, the ability to cast spells at no cost is amazingly overpowered. Every encounter, every round = Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Haste, Dispel Magic, Fly, Hold Person, etc. Then throw in a cleric to cast CMW every round. Who needs a tank? Just alternate two wiz/sor casting Tenser's and getting buffed. Then another issue....why don't heals get pumped? Wiz get more d6s of damage, why can't clerics get more +1/lvl to heals? Wiz get 3.5 more per level, but clerics can't get 1/level? Seems a tad biased. But since we're on the subject of Divine casters...explain to me how a God grants you Raw Magic, since ALL divine spells in FR require deific sanction.
Meldread 04-13-07, 09:09 PM	Yeah, I'm debating on cutting out the divine thing but the problem I ran into was with classes like the Mystic Theurge. Essentially, they'd be accessing raw magic for arcane spells and then casting from either the Weave / Shadow Weave for divine magic. That just doesn't float well with me because I feel that it trivializes the concept... I mean you could just hop back and forth. I don't want that - I'd like to see all or nothing. I realize that magic is vastly more powerful and that was intentional. The caster will only be able to cast up to third level spells in an unlimited capacity and only at 17th level. Mostly, this is for NPC's not PC's. However, it does make being a arcane caster more epic, doesn't it? By 20th level I do envision a Wizard being able to crush armies - perhaps even level cities. Tenth level magic makes this possible, as does an endless stream of fireballs. It may be unbalanced but really if you live to level 17 (how likely is that to happen with all the opportunities to fail a concentration check?) then I think you are more than deserving of the power. You might be right about sorcerers. I want to give them a rather large boost in power, as I believe they have the most to benefit from this and they get rather shafted compared to other arcane users in the current magic system. I'm not a brick wall, I'm just not looking for acceptance. What I am looking for is any definitive answers (lore wise) that says unequivocally that it can't work -at all-. Theoretically it seems possible, plus on top of it all - I want to try this out and I need an excuse. ;)
Dielzen 04-13-07, 09:49 PM	Just noticed you give Sorc a higher base strain tolerance and then give them the +2 bonus to the chart, which seems interesting, I'd suggest giving all "pure spellcasters" the same 5+mod and use the bonus listed for Sorcs. (I didn't notice the different bases prior to this) Also, you've killed the low-level Bard if they can't cast spells til 4th level.
MaskedOne 04-14-07, 10:39 AM	Accessing Weave free magic is possible. Psionics, table magic and potentially pluma magic manage it. Albeit only one of these is statted to my knowledge in 3.X. It is also workable to class Incarnum, Binders and Truenamers as bypasses to the Weave. There is a comment on Candlekeep from Ed about the Weave being the most popular, correct and powerful form of magic use but not the only form. I won't touch any of your other suggestions. I'm not in the mood to drag myself into a debate on them but to the salient point. Yes, you can bypass both Weaves and the attached divine controllers.
BrennonGoldeye 04-14-07, 08:42 PM	Yes. The first Weave/Divinty free method of evaporating your enemy. Create your own "weave". Welcome to.. 'Psionicists Interplanal, we already know you'll call us redundant.' :P
The WarOverlord 04-16-07, 09:21 AM	Accessing Weave free magic is possible. Psionics, table magic and potentially pluma magic manage it. Albeit only one of these is statted to my knowledge in 3.X. It is also workable to class Incarnum, Binders and Truenamers as bypasses to the Weave. There is a comment on Candlekeep from Ed about the Weave being the most popular, correct and powerful form of magic use but not the only form. I won't touch any of your other suggestions. I'm not in the mood to drag myself into a debate on them but to the salient point. Yes, you can bypass both Weaves and the attached divine controllers. Well, no, Torillians (as in Creatures native to the forgotten Realms) would have no Psionic ability of the Magical sort immediately after the time of troubles because of the old Mystra "melting into the Land" on her destruction and then slowly gets it back as Midnight comes more comfy in her new role so any Torillian using Psionics would still be using the Weave with 3rd eddition Psionics and it is specifically stated that Native Torilians don't have access to "True Psionics" of the 2nd Ediition version in the 3rd Eddition Forgotten Realms Campaign Book Likewise any magic a Native Torillian would initially use is initially linked to the Weave if it has to do with anything in the Forgotten Realms related to "the Art" or "the Divine" as the "Goddess of All Magic" is the regulator of of any kind of Magic used by Mortals in the Forgotten Realm via "The Weave" no matter the methods...unless a Native Torillian learns another method....say, from an outsider...maybye even a godling like Shar that offers a "different way" (abiet another type of "Weave") And no, the gods Magical Ability aren't directly affected outside of Torilian Prime Material Plane , but the "Weave" controls what kind of magic the Mortal Followers can use or have Access to, or what kind of Spells a Avatar of the goddling could cast while on the Prime (Specifically the gods of Toril seem to turn into powerful mortals rather then Avatars when on Toril that are not only limited in power, but killable too....but that is more a condition that the Oergod Ao imposess then the "weave" via Mystra) I am not too sure of the Source, but I heard that guy that tried to assume Mystra's Place in the the old days got part of his knowledge from "Dark Powers" beyond the Forgotten Realms which would make that particular Spell of an "Alienist" variety. Because such a spell is never meant to be use again on Toril, it needs to be maintained that ANY method of magic would still be linked to "the Weave" if cast in the Forgotten REalms by a native and may not even work within the Forgotten Reams as 2 godheads (Mystra,Azuth) would have to authorize such magic even being accessable from the Forgotten Realms (as in a Alienist trying to contact a "Dark Power" for information to bypass the weave from the Forgotten Realms with a Divining spell...thats gotta have to "ring some bells")
Karsus the Mad 04-16-07, 09:45 AM	Well, no, Torillians (as in Creatures native to the forgotten Realms) would have no Psionic ability of the Magical sort immediately after the time of troubles because of the old Mystra "melting into the Land" on her destruction and then slowly gets it back as Midnight comes more comfy in her new role so any Torillian using Psionics would still be using the Weave with 3rd eddition Psionics and it is specifically stated that Native Torilians don't have access to "True Psionics" of the 2nd Ediition version in the 3rd Eddition Forgotten Realms Campaign Book PGtF specifically state that psionics, while magical in nature, do not draw upon either weave, nor does either deity (Mystra and Shar) have any power over them. That's why psionics did work, mostly, during the ToT. I am not too sure of the Source, but I heard that guy that tried to assume Mystra's Place in the the old days got part of his knowledge from "Dark Powers" beyond the Forgotten Realms That would be me:) I tried to replace Mystryl. But I invented the magic that allowed me to attempt such a foolish act. Noone told me anything. Given that I used the first and only 12th level spell to ever exist, noone could have told me how to do it;)
MaskedOne 04-17-07, 04:23 PM	But in truth, anyone sufficiently dedicated can learn to wield psionic powers. Unlike spells, which derive their power from Faerun's Weave (or the Shadow Weave), psionic ability taps only the inner resevoirs of the manifester. In a sense, each psionic creature is its own Weave, using the magic of its own lifeforce and mind to create psionic effects. Mystra and Shar have no ability to deny psionic creatures access to powers, and they do not control the promulgation of psionic lore and ability throughout the populace of Faerun. PGtF came out in March 2004. If anyone wishes to provide me a quote from published, canon material after that date overruling the text referenced above then I will stop singing the praises of psionic powers every time someone asks for Weave-free magic. Hasn't happened yet. FRCS copyright is in 2001.
Stigger 04-17-07, 04:47 PM	I we give you a :cookie: would you considering taking it from a song to more of a hum? :D
Dielzen 04-17-07, 04:54 PM	I'm fairly certain 90% of people know that psionics is independant of the weaves. That doesn't mecessarily make it a viable alterntive to magic, as many DMs (myself included) find Psionics to be fairly over-powered in campaigns that aren't heavy combat. The whole "nova every encounter" thing. I don't want to play into that debate again, but suffice it to say that anyone who came to me in my game and said "I want to do magic stuff w/o using the weave" would not be pointed to psionics as an alternative.
BrennonGoldeye 04-18-07, 10:33 AM	Ah, :turkey: huh? :D P.S.- Sorry, no "chicken" emoticon.
BrennonGoldeye 04-18-07, 10:35 AM	PGtF came out in March 2004. If anyone wishes to provide me a quote from published, canon material after that date overruling the text referenced above then I will stop singing the praises of psionic powers every time someone asks for Weave-free magic. Hasn't happened yet. FRCS copyright is in 2001. Shhhh.... What they don't know, or refuse to believe....;)
Gray Richardson 04-18-07, 08:58 PM	I'm fairly certain 90% of people know that psionics is independant of the weaves.Psionic "casting" or power manifesting is independent of the Weave and does not draw power from the Weave at the time of casting. Thus, psionics may work in a dead-magic zone, even though the Weave is inaccessible there. Psionics works like having a magical battery, or a mini-Weave, to draw from in your brain. That said, it is likely that one has to draw power from the Weave each night in order to "charge up" that battery and replenish one's power point pool. I don't know if this has been explored in lore, but there may actually be some form of magic that might be able to interfere with one's ability to recharge one's power point pool. And I would not rule out Mystra's power to deny someone from accessing the Weave to recharge their psionic power points. Of course, this is all DM's discretion, and a DM may choose to set rules for psionics however he likes in his own game. But I suspect that we may see some clarification in sourcebooks in the future that indicates that psionics in Faerûn may still have some links to Mystra's Weave in one way or another.
Karsus the Mad 04-18-07, 11:54 PM	I have to disagree with you there Gray. FR seems to make sure psionics aren't mixed with weave-based magic. Even having psionics dependent upon the weave only to recharge a psion's points would make psionics even more redundant and pointless than they already have been made by the PGtF making them magic to begin with. If that would change in the future however, it wouldn't be psionics, but rather the spellpoint system in unearthed arcana.
MaskedOne 04-20-07, 04:42 PM	I we give you a :cookie: would you considering taking it from a song to more of a hum? :D Shrug, unlikely. Ignoring balance considerations temporarily because I'm not interested in trying to argue them, the PGtF lore on psionics effectively solved my major objections to Toril without detracting from Mystra who somehow remains my favorite divinity in the setting. Unless and until WotC manages that more effectively with another system, it is unlikely that I'm going to moderate my opinions on FR and modern psionics. Dielzen, while balance issues probably should be considered to some degree, I'm not particularly interested in trying to argue them and they're mostly a side item to me. I provided possible published ways to get around the Weave and Shadow Weave. Actually convincing one's DM that they are balanced for play is better done by someone else.
Gray Richardson 04-22-07, 12:48 AM	I have to disagree with you there Gray. FR seems to make sure psionics aren't mixed with weave-based magic. Even having psionics dependent upon the weave only to recharge a psion's points would make psionics even more redundant and pointless than they already have been made by the PGtF making them magic to begin with.Let's be clear: the Players Guide to Faerûn didn't "make" psionics magic; this concept comes from the Expanded Psionics Handbook itself. The PGtF merely elaborated on which version of the Transparency rule that the FR setting uses. Psionics do not become redundant nor pointless simply because they use the magic transparency rule. They remain just as effective, even if they are powered by magic. I personally like the idea that dispelling and certain other magic effects can affect and interact with psionics and vice-versa. But your mileage may vary. As for whether or not psionic power points must be recharged from the Weave each night while one sleeps, that is my own personal theory, but one which I think is sound and supportable. If psionics are basically a variant method of utilizing magical power, it only makes sense that this power itself is drawn from the Weave, at least so far as replenishing psionic power points. Maybe a sourcebook someday will clarify the issue, but of course DM's are free to use or ignore the notion as they see fit. The analogy I would use is that of a cell phone. A cell phone doesn't have to be plugged into an outlet or a phone jack while you use it, it has a battery (aka a personal mini-weave) inside it. But you do have to plug it in to an outlet each night to recharge it.
Karsus the Mad 04-22-07, 07:22 AM	I wasn't referring to the transparency rule, I was talking about your theory that That said, it is likely that one has to draw power from the Weave each night in order to "charge up" that battery and replenish one's power point pool. PGtF makes it clear that psionics are in no way related to weave-based magics. Attaching them to the Weave, imo, makes them even more redundant, as they simply become yet another method of utilizing the Weave. As for whether or not psionic power points must be recharged from the Weave each night while one sleeps, that is my own personal theory, but one which I think is sound and supportable. If psionics are basically a variant method of utilizing magical power, it only makes sense that this power itself is drawn from the Weave, at least so far as replenishing psionic power points. Maybe a sourcebook someday will clarify the issue, but of course DM's are free to use or ignore the notion as they see fit. Except that the Weave isn't the source of magic, but merely a conduit, one of many, to access the source of magic. I like the idea of recharging, I simply don't see it being Weave-based. Especially since the PGtF states it has nothing to do with the Weave (or SW) and that neither deity has any power over it.
MaskedOne 04-22-07, 05:51 PM	The distinction in PGtF is rather explicit, Gray. Spells tap the Weave, Psionics do not. It does not leave much vague mystery that can be clarified into making psionic abilities dependent on the Weave or Shadow Weave. It just blatantly says that psions don't use the Weaves. Relying on the Weave or Shadow Weave to recharge is just as much a form of using them as calling on their power at the moment of casting. I'm failing to see the grounds for which psionic ability can be linked to either Weave and therefore theoretically under the supervision the administrators of said Weaves. Shrug, admittedly, I'm biased. I don't want psionics linked to the Weave or Shadow Weave. Doing so revives my problems with a handful of flawed beings controlling all supernatural powers within a setting and I'm not interested.
BrennonGoldeye 04-23-07, 07:38 PM	:clap:
Gray Richardson 04-24-07, 01:38 AM	PGtF makes it clear that psionics are in no way related to weave-based magics.Well, no, no it doesn't. If it were clear then we would not be having this discussion. ;) I agree that it says psionic manifesting does not tap the Weave. The PGTF however does not address where the power for recharging power points comes from. I think a credible argument can be made that psionic individuals recharge their power points from the Weave at night (whether they are aware of this or not), and I was tossing that out as a possible theory of how it works. Only time will tell if the theory is right or wrong. Maybe this is something we could ask Ed Greenwood or Rich Baker. You don't have to agree or disagree with it. And you should definitely not use the theory in your own game if you don't like it.Attaching them to the Weave, imo, makes them even more redundant, as they simply become yet another method of utilizing the Weave.I take it you have some major issues with the Weave? It's cool if you want your psionics to be completely independent of the Weave in your game. But I personally see no problem with using the Weave to recharge your power points, and I don't see how it makes psionics redundant at all, but like I said before, your mileage may vary.The distinction in PGtF is rather explicit, Gray. Spells tap the Weave, Psionics do not.I get that. I agree with that. Psionics don't tap the Weave when you manifest. They are tapping the psionic power in your brain, your own personal mini-weave. But it does not address at all where you recharge your power points from, and it does not explicitly rule out that the Weave is where you draw that power from when you recharge.Relying on the Weave or Shadow Weave to recharge is just as much a form of using them as calling on their power at the moment of casting.That's kind of narrow thinking. Having a personal mini-weave gives you so much more freedom than tapping the Weave directly. You could use psionics in a dead magic zone when ordinary spellcasters are cut off from the Weave and cannot cast. Your psionics will be reliable in a wild magic zone. I suppose that no god could cut you off from the Weave when you are manifesting, as you do not access the Weave to manifest. Or, even if they did, since you are already charged up, it would not prevent you from manifesting. These are clear advantages of psionics over other types of Weave casting. Whether or not one has to recharge from the Weave at night, while you rest, does not take away at all from the advantages that psionics offers as a system.Shrug, admittedly, I'm biased. I don't want psionics linked to the Weave or Shadow Weave. Doing so revives my problems with a handful of flawed beings controlling all supernatural powers within a setting and I'm not interested.Agreed, you are biased, and that makes for poor science. Scientists don't prejudge theories based on their personal aesthetics. I have proposed a theory; the theory is either correct or incorrect. We have no way to test it, really, except to wait for a designer or an official source to say whether it is so. Whether or not it is true, the truth will not depend in any way on your issues with authority figures. ;)
MaskedOne 04-24-07, 03:14 AM	Not being GothicDan, I could not possibly care less about whether my arguments are scientific. The scientific method is a tool and as I'm not using it right now, I don't feel any obligation to a make a pretense to the contrary. Beyond my personal grudges however, I did not say there were no advantages to having one's own personal mini-Weave. I said that relying on Mystra's Weave to charge one's personal mini-Weave is just as much a form of relying on said Weave as normal spellcasting. One way or another without access to the Weave you have problems. Only difference is those that get to store up a charge don't get those problems immediately and might get back to the Weave before they crop up. As pg. 172 also states just below the text I originally quoted (the odd grammar in the quote below is part of the text, not my handiwork) While psionics does not require the Weave to function, I'm still failing to see how making them dependent on a greater Weave for recharge is not contradicting PGtF. True the dependence is different but it's still a dependence. As for where a psion could be getting the energy for their mini-Weave outside Mystra or Shar, since the text is calling each psion their own Weave, I'd presume that psions rely on raw magic as depicted in Magic of Faerun and FRCS (if memory serves). They just rely on a limited source, their life and mind rather than trying to stretch outside themselves. The decision to stick to only the raw magic within the individual psion is probably a contributing factor in why they're still breathing. As the major Weaves are filters and access routes to Toril's raw magic, it has been my general assumption that a lesser Weave does the same thing on a smaller scale.
Stigger 04-24-07, 04:37 AM	Well, personally, I'd agree with the Masked One on it. Seems, going off of inferences from the EPH and PGtF, they're set that way for game balance issues rather than some hard-coded lore based reason. If we're coming up with reasons as to why that is so... well, I'd favor the approach that its all just raw magical energy, different methods of tapping it and such, but still ultimately raw magical energy that can interact with each other. As to weave based recharging... that seems like it negates the point of psionics being the powers of the mind and self. Call it some amped up bio-mystical field or whatever, just keep them seperate, otherwise it takes away some of the uniqueness of psionics and Art both, at least from my perspective.
Dielzen 04-24-07, 08:01 AM	Aglarond and Thay are at war with each other, except on every third Sunday when they get together for tea and strumpets. I'm sure we've all read the first part of that comment before, but I highly doubt any of us ever tacked on the italicized part, and to do so would be a house-ruled, campaign-specific addition to lore.....after all, the books don't address what really happens on the third Sunday of every month and you can't be at war all the time. Psionics doesn't use the weave, except to recharge their batteries at night. Once again, tacked-on house ruling.
Stigger 04-24-07, 08:04 AM	Tea and strumpets? Where do I sign up for just the strumpet part? :D But yeah, good point there. :)
BrennonGoldeye 04-24-07, 05:21 PM	I get that. I agree with that. Psionics don't tap the Weave when you manifest. They are tapping the psionic power in your brain, your own personal mini-weave. But it does not address at all where you recharge your power points from, and it does not explicitly rule out that the Weave is where you draw that power from when you recharge. Well, since it is a mini-weave I would say it gets it's power from the same place the Weave does. Since the Weave doesn't use It's own energy to actually fuel the spells, it seems a little logical to assume that neither do the mini-weaves. Just my take.:)
Gray Richardson 04-25-07, 01:21 AM	I'm still failing to see how making them dependent on a greater Weave for recharge is not contradicting PGtF. True the dependence is different but it's still a dependence.You are quoting the rule that "psionics do not require the Weave to function". Well, cell phones do not require being plugged into either an electrical outlet or a phone jack to function. Cell phones do not require the electrical power grid to function. But they still have to recharge at night, so when they are not functioning you do plug them into an outlet to recharge. Psionics also need to recharge at night. It is only logical to consider the Weave as a candidate for the source of that recharging. Functioning and recharging are two different things. Note also that the designers have used the words "does not require". They did not say "does not utilize". That doesn't rule out the possibility that some psionics may, as an option, use the Weave--even though it may not be required. This actually opens the door to the possibility that some psions might tap into the weave to overcharge their manifestations or to overpower their psionic focus. I could foresee a prestige class or a discipline that integrates psionics with spellcasting in interesting ways to use psionics coupled with the Weave (or even the Shadow Weave) to achieve some very special results. As for whether psionic power point pools are recharged from raw magic or not, I can't rule it out. However, your cell phone does not recharge itself by attracting lightning to itself, or by absorbing ambient microwaves, radio waves, etc. Your cell phone has to be plugged into an electrical power grid each night. By analogy, one might conclude that a psionic user might need to recharge himself from some sort of similar magical infrastructure, such as the Weave. I don't know if the analogy is an accurate model of what is going on with psionics but it's a theory.
Stigger 04-25-07, 01:58 AM	But if they are their own mini-Weaves, presuming your theory about that is true there, wouldn't it make more sense that they were just be recharging off of Raw Magic rather than through a second conduit, namely the Weave or Shadow Weave?
BrennonGoldeye 04-25-07, 07:17 AM	But if they are their own mini-Weaves, presuming your theory about that is true there, wouldn't it make more sense that they were just be recharging off of Raw Magic rather than through a second conduit, namely the Weave or Shadow Weave? This is exactly what I was trying to say above.:D
Khaelieth 04-25-07, 10:53 AM	Hellfire, Spellfire, Moonfire and whatever the dark/light stuff used in Lady Petulant. Or is only spellfire counted "raw" magic?
The WarOverlord 04-25-07, 02:51 PM	PGtF specifically state that psionics, while magical in nature, do not draw upon either weave, nor does either deity (Mystra and Shar) have any power over them. That's why psionics did work, mostly, during the ToT. True Psionics (second eddition type) was actully permanently lost to native Torillians as well as the temporary lost of the Mentalist Mage crap one (3rd eddition) during Mystra's merging with the Land during the Time of Troubles (Book 2106, Forgotten Realms Adventures, by ED GREENWOOD and Jeff Grubb, page 6) Native Torillians were always Menatist Mage (3rd addition) Psionists and lost that ability when Mystra died during the Time of Troubles....on the upside that means Uber Munchkin Eliminster lost his Psionic ability....lol Mind Flayers and Gith and such do in fact use 2nd edition Psionics..even on Toril, though on the up note it is mentioned in that same paragraph that banned Psionics at that time that "alien magics" outside the standards of what Azuth and Mystra govens isn't impossible. In Forgotten Realms Campain Setting (0-7869-1836-5,by ED GREENWOOD,Renolds,Williams,and Heinsoo), page 290, 5th paragraph it says the Forgotten Realms ismostly a non-Psionic Realm (of the 2nd eddition type). It further states that native Torillians can use 3rd eddition Psionics now (10 years after t.o.t.) but the world view of them is that they are Sorcerers or Mages. That would be me:) I tried to replace Mystryl. But I invented the magic that allowed me to attempt such a foolish act. Noone told me anything. Given that I used the first and only 12th level spell to ever exist, noone could have told me how to do it;) Ah. Then know that the parts of the research scrolls were "tampered with" by a time traveling Adventurer that was in league with a Demon and Celestial so you weren't incompetent...you were sabatoged...lol (or rather MOOOHAHAHA!!!!,MOOOHAHAHAHA!!!)
Gray Richardson 04-25-07, 09:12 PM	But if they are their own mini-Weaves, presuming your theory about that is true there, wouldn't it make more sense that they were just be recharging off of Raw Magic rather than through a second conduit, namely the Weave or Shadow Weave?Not really, if the theory is true. Following the analogy, that would be like asking why can't a cell phone battery just recharge itself by attracting lightning to itself, or by sucking microwaves out of the broadcast spectrum. Batteries simply cannot recharge themselves without being plugged into an electrical infrastructure of some kind. Likewise I would think your psionic power pool would need to hook up to a source of magical or psionic power to recharge. In this analogy the Weave is like the Power Company, raw magic is like raw electricity. Raw magic is not a source of magical power, it simply is magical power. That is not to exclude the possibility of recharging from other sources. One might be able to use the Shadow Weave to recharge, or perhaps siphon power from another psion's power pool, or from psionic items, etc.
MaskedOne 04-25-07, 11:01 PM	That argument only works if a psion's mini-weave operates like a cell phone battery. The very use of the term argues against that. Neither of the other Weaves operate like a battery. Why would the designers compare psions so blatantly to the Weaves if the psion mini-weaves operate nothing like the major ones? If we're going for analogies there are two I prefer. Option 1: I'd liken psionic abilities to one of the flashlights that you shake for a little or crank a handle and after a minute or two it can provide light for a limited duration. No external machinery required, kinetic to potential to electrical. Rest in this case would be equivalent to cranking the handle, next day, you're ready to go. Option 2 and possibly more appropriate: A small solar cell can within limits power various appliances (powers in this case) quite nicely and all it has to do is sit out in sunlight or in this case be exposed to raw magic which is omnipresent but difficult to access directly, the psion learns to convert a fragment into usable form much as a solar cell absorbs and converts solar energy. Neither require an overarching power grid and both are more appropriate for someone being called a Weave than a cell phone. Both Weaves take unrefined power and make it usable. They aren't batteries that store up energy from a greater power grid and if a mini-Weave is supposed to operate like a cell phone battery rather than a Weave then the designers desperately need to work on their descriptive abilities.
Gray Richardson 04-26-07, 02:09 AM	That argument only works if a psion's mini-weave operates like a cell phone battery.Correct. If the analogy is not an accurate model of psionics in the Realms, then the rules will work a different way.If we're going for analogies there are two I prefer. Option 1: I'd liken psionic abilities to one of the flashlights that you shake for a little or crank a handle and after a minute or two it can provide light for a limited duration. No external machinery required, kinetic to potential to electrical. Rest in this case would be equivalent to cranking the handle, next day, you're ready to go. Option 2 and possibly more appropriate: A small solar cell can within limits power various appliances (powers in this case) quite nicely and all it has to do is sit out in sunlight or in this case be exposed to raw magic which is omnipresent but difficult to access directly, the psion learns to convert a fragment into usable form much as a solar cell absorbs and converts solar energy.Those are interesting theories. Who knows, one of those might be the real way it works in the Realms. And you can certainly make it so for your own Realms. Like I said, only time may reveal the secrets of how psionics work in the Realms. I would certainly love to see designers develop some more psionics lore for Faerûn.
MaskedOne 04-26-07, 02:47 AM	More psion lore would be nice. Admittedly and quite unscientifically, I will care a lot less if new lore shows up explicitly linking psionic abilities to the Weave or Shadow Weave for anything. Lorewise, the existence of an independent magical system that is available to anyone with the right knowledge (yes, I'm shamelessly taking advantage of a retcon that shifts back and forth between being ignored and derided then ignored as far as I know) settles all my major problems with Toril's magic and no one did something silly like endanger Mystra to arrange it. Though, there is always Incarnum and Tome of Magic. Now that my minor complaints and issues with authority have been hashed over a touch too much, I will be returning to my regularly scheduled role as mostly faithful advocate of Mystra and her Chosen. Don't ask how my my minor issues with authority and excessive bias in favor of Mystra work together. :)
Terraneaux 05-04-07, 04:01 AM	Its been specifically said that Mystra has no particular power to influence psionicists (other than generic divine smiting). Get back to you guys with a book reference on that. This includes all of her weave mainpulation. If you want to wield raw magic, go to Greyhawk. Or any place besides Realmspace and Dweomerheart, actually. Its not really that amazing, just you don't have to deal with Mystra breathing down your neck if you do something 'wrong.'
BrennonGoldeye 05-04-07, 10:16 PM	It's also canon that they form their own "adapter" to access the energy for their abilities. The same energy the Weave accesses. As I have said before, if you want (shadow)weave free spellpower, go Psionic. There are other options, but none with published backing like psionics.:D
Alac Luin 05-04-07, 11:59 PM	I love these discussions :) I'll just throw out my ideas on this and see where they land. Spellcasting 3 part procedure. 1) Draw Raw magic energy through the weave (shadow weave) to cast spell. 2) Cast spell- Choosing the spell and arranging the Weave to create the desired effect. 3) Actual effect- The Weave affects the Raw magic in the target area. (notice, the weave is not just a place for spellcasters to "plug-into", it is also the effect) Psionic Manifesting 3 part procedure. 1) Accessing the inner reserve of power (PPs). 2) Manifesting- Choosing the power and using direct manipulation of personal mental energy. 3) Actual effect- Personal mental energy manipulates the raw magic in the target to create the effect. (notice this does not touch the Weave, but Raw Magic) Since the PGtF does not state otherwise, we need to go back to the XPH for the description of Power Points, whech uses terms such as... "Psionic powers spring from sentient minds." "Psionic characters manifest powers, which involve the direct manipulation of personal mental energy." and "Regaining Power Points: Once the character has rested in a suitable environment, it takes only an act of concentration spanning 1 full round to regain all power points of the psionic character’s daily limit." As for the environment, the only stipulation is "Peaceful Environment: To regain power points, a psionic character must have enough peace, quiet, and comfort to allow for proper concentration. The psionic character’s surroundings need not be luxurious, but they must be free from overt distractions, such as combat raging nearby or other loud noises. Exposure to inclement weather prevents the necessary concentration, as does any injury or failed saving throw the character might incur while concentrating on regaining power points." Nothing here claims anything to believe there should be an access to magic to regain PPs. A psionic creature can rest in an AMF and still regain their PPs. They would still not be able to Manifest their powers, since the Raw magic is "locked" (preventing any manipulation) by the AMF spell. To the OP Spellfire is described as "unrefined" as it is not closely manipulated by the act of spellcasting. It still goes through the Weave, remember it is still considered a gift from Mystra, and does not function in a DMZ (area that the weave is not present). There are other ways to access the Raw magic in an area, psionics manipulates the Raw Magic, and something called Table Magic is another thing that can manipulates Raw Magic. From what I remember, Table Magic is a slow process.