Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Todesherr 09-23-07, 01:03 AM	Well I thought they would be changing things a bit but THIS is ridiculous. Is everyone sure that this is official beyond a doubt? Source? Grand History of the Realms? Official and in BLOODY AS HELL SURE OFFICIAL? One of the things I loved about FR were the wide variety of deities and their colours and flavours, unlike DragonLance which was all about Paladine and Takhisis with a couple of side kick gods. Damn. I'm upset. I certainly DO hope that there wil still be a Torm and a Malar for example. Maybe Bhaal will be making a come back! It does sadden me greatly but IF it is as official as apple pie, I would predict a loss of sales. Ultimately WotC doesn't care aout anything but money and I think they are making a bad investment so to speak. It is the loyal long time gamers with the cash to spend who will be turned off and the little kiddies, come on? We could all still be pouring money into WotC's coffers for decades and they completely revamp EVERYTHING we have come to know and love. Either they will fail miserably or they have some marketing genius behind the helm that is masterminding it all...still it is a sad day...one thing is for sure, all the magic gods are dead....depressing....:weep: :weep: :weep:
ElberethSilverleaf 09-23-07, 01:11 AM	Also there tends to be a trend away from alignment restrictions on Good vs Evil. It's a way to entice younger players who have not been raised by their parents to have a concept of "good" ethical behavior yet allow them to play that "really cool" Paladin...yes slaughter the whole village of innocents.
18DELTA 09-23-07, 02:54 AM	Also there tends to be a trend away from alignment restrictions on Good vs Evil. It's a way to entice younger players who have not been raised by their parents to have a concept of "good" ethical behavior yet allow them to play that "really cool" Paladin...yes slaughter the whole village of innocents. Touchdown!;)
Shuuya 09-23-07, 02:45 PM	Maybe Bhaal will be making a come back! Man, I hope so. However I get the feeling he's "had his chance" and he might not be coming back. Afterall there's so many dead gods who haven't even had one chance to return. That said with Cyric imprisoned who's going to take the murder portfolio? And it's awful strange the entire Dead Three had a "returning" plan incase they died. (Then again Bhaal might've tipped them off when he saw his own death.) I hope Bhaal makes a comeback but I'm not raising my hopes.
diadiem 09-23-07, 03:04 PM	I have to say that it is quite suprising too. Maybe they are angling for Karsus to return and cast his godhood spell again. Of course, the published chapter of the Orc king mentions the spellpauge and that a century has passed. Does anyone know the actual parameters of the plauge? An elf is still casting spells, but the Grand History says that the weave collapsed. Anyone? Anything?
ywhtptgtfo 09-23-07, 05:37 PM	I have to say that it is quite suprising too. Maybe they are angling for Karsus to return and cast his godhood spell again. ? Oh no. The two Karsus aspects here do not need anymore excitement.
dragonheart 09-23-07, 08:13 PM	the spell plague is WotC very bad way of dealing with a minor amount of whining about Mystra/Midnight and their need to revamp the way magic works in 4.0. Sadly it could have been done much better by having her catch (and kill) Cyric then spend her energies burning out both the weave and the shadow weave and spining an entirely new weave. In the process she, Selune and Lathandar/Aumontor burn away many of SHar's deceits and open her secrets to light reducing her believer base to the point where she is a intermediate deity like her sister Selune (heck knock them both down to about DR10 and then let them battle for an age there).
ywhtptgtfo 09-23-07, 08:26 PM	Oh well. I can't see how WotC wouldn't get a profit out of this. Even if we hate 4th ed, a large portion of us would at least buy the FRCS 4ed to see what's going on. It's not like many of the 3ed books are sold anyway... the spell plague is WotC very bad way of dealing with a minor amount of whining about Mystra/Midnight and their need to revamp the way magic works in 4.0. Sadly it could have been done much better by having her catch (and kill) Cyric then spend her energies burning out both the weave and the shadow weave and spining an entirely new weave. In the process she, Selune and Lathandar/Aumontor burn away many of SHar's deceits and open her secrets to light reducing her believer base to the point where she is a intermediate deity like her sister Selune (heck knock them both down to about DR10 and then let them battle for an age there).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-24-07, 06:01 PM	Yes, it's all official (in Grand History of the Realms), and yes, I agree that killing off a bunch of gods was a very bad move.
customdrapery 09-25-07, 09:36 AM	I'm not totally against whittling down the Pantheon some, I mean, do you really need Siamorphe? I think that some of them could have been taken out, but I totally disagree with how it's being done. I would rather see just a big war of the gods thing and mix things up. Tyr killing Helm was just a bad idea. Especially considering it all started with an argument with Siamorphe (why would Tyr care if she disagreed?) WotC is making simply a marketing move, making the game simpler and hopefully selling it to younger players who will keep playing the game. If they're not careful, they're going to end up with Basic D&D (Ooh, I'm a 2nd level Elf!). Personally, I think they're going in the wrong direction both with the game and with the Realms. I'll just hang on to my 3.5e, 2e, and 1e stuff and be happy.
Alediran 09-25-07, 09:53 AM	I'm not totally against whittling down the Pantheon some, I mean, do you really need Siamorphe? Yes, they are needed because they add deepness to the setting, it's good to have more gods than what the players use for their characters because it gives the DMs more tools to write adventures. A lilitu impersonating a cleric of Lurue would act very diferently from another lilitu impersonating a cleric of Red Knight and the motives for the lilitus could be different, thanks to the difference between those gods Tyr killing Helm was just a bad idea. Especially considering it all started with an argument with Siamorphe (why would Tyr care if she disagreed?) It was totally lame. WotC is making simply a marketing move, making the game simpler and hopefully selling it to younger players who will keep playing the game. If they're not careful, they're going to end up with Basic D&D (Ooh, I'm a 2nd level Elf!). Personally, I think they're going in the wrong direction both with the game and with the Realms. I'll just hang on to my 3.5e, 2e, and 1e stuff and be happy. If a young player wanted to play D&D then he has the obligation to learn the same way we did, studying the setting and the rules to make a good character. What WotC is doing to young players is making their life easier and not giving them enough material to work their minds. What I'm saying is perfectly resumed by this phrase: "Cold is the wheater of the powerfull countries"
MarkusTay63 09-25-07, 11:30 AM	WotC runs its Cosmology the way you run a corporation... It's called "downsizing". ;)
The Ubbergeek 09-25-07, 12:51 PM	Maybe the realms, to defend WOTC, needs some proverbial kick in the ass to get some change? Maybe it got too bloated, to complex and confusing, too overpowered in some things? There is critics to FR, and they don't come all from mindless hater noobs, but also and much from experimented gamers. Maybe the changes will be actually good once we will see it all. Newcommers are not a menace to FR, young ones are not lame and stupid. We should stop to bring the 'pandering to the l337 noobs crowd' strawman argument.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-25-07, 01:33 PM	If a young player wanted to play D&D then he has the obligation to learn the same way we did, studying the setting and the rules to make a good character. What WotC is doing to young players is making their life easier and not giving them enough material to work their minds. What I'm saying is perfectly resumed by this phrase: "Cold is the wheater of the powerfull countries" Also, learning the setting as you "go along" is supposed to be part of the fun, right? I don't think anyone expects newbies to become experts on the setting overnight. And you don't need to be an expert on the setting to play and enjoy a game set there.
The Ubbergeek 09-25-07, 01:44 PM	Also, learning the setting as you "go along" is supposed to be part of the fun, right? I don't think anyone expects newbies to become experts on the setting overnight. And you don't need to be an expert on the setting to play and enjoy a game set there. But even if guys like GothicDan try to deny it, the sheer size of Canon and all is truely daunting for newcommers, especially for DM newcommers. It's a fact who came that the setting was made to eb very detailed and all, and since with each new year new stuff was added, well..
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-25-07, 01:48 PM	But even if guys like GothicDan try to deny it, the sheer size of Canon and all is truely daunting for newcommers, especially for DM newcommers. It's a fact who came that the setting was made to eb very detailed and all, and since with each new year new stuff was added, well.. I was a newcomer to the setting only about 6-7 years ago. Little by little, without even trying, I learned the setting. It's not exactly an impossible task, especially if you're interested enough to WANT to learn more.
Uzzy 09-25-07, 02:22 PM	I was a newcomer to the Realms thanks to, of all things, Baldurs Gate and NWN. Played those for a while, became interested in the setting, asked a few admittedly newbieish questions on the likes of Candlekeep, and learnt about the setting. One of the things that appealed to me was the depth and breadth of the written material. I was never daunted, but intrigued. Peeling back layers, discovering new things about characters and nations was indeed part of the fun for me! All you need to run a game in the Forgotten Realms is the FRCS. All the lore needed is in that book. Everything else is optional. I don't get how that's an obstacle to playing in the Forgotten Realms.
Alediran 09-26-07, 05:56 PM	The size of the setting never scared me, on the contrary, it made me read more and more and that was only about two years and a half ago. And I never thought that the power level was too much because I saw it was very logical to have many powerfull champions of good and evil, law and chaos if they could survive the odds, that also gives a DM the chance to play high lvl campaigns without making them too unrealistical with the setting (one of the reasons I dislike Eberron, it's too low on power for my taste).
Leon_Lionheart 09-26-07, 06:35 PM	*sigh* Can't we all just wait to see what Fourth Edition actually looks like before deciding whether or not it's the end of the world as we know it? I mean, take a reverse example--everyone thought Devil May Cry 2 was gonna be the best thing since the cavemen invented vodka, an assumption based solely on little marketing glimpses and screenshots, but it turned out to be the worst thing since cavemen invented vodka. First impressions can be horribly wrong; that goes double for preconceptions. Let's keep our heads cool and tightly screwed-on, wait until the actual product's release, and make our judgments then.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-27-07, 08:30 PM	First impressions can be horribly wrong; that goes double for preconceptions. Let's keep our heads cool and tightly screwed-on, wait until the actual product's release, and make our judgments then. Fair enough advice, but I've learned to trust my gut on stuff like this.
philnicau 09-27-07, 10:17 PM	*sigh* Can't we all just wait to see what Fourth Edition actually looks like before deciding whether or not it's the end of the world as we know it? I mean, take a reverse example--everyone thought Devil May Cry 2 was gonna be the best thing since the cavemen invented vodka, an assumption based solely on little marketing glimpses and screenshots, but it turned out to be the worst thing since cavemen invented vodka. First impressions can be horribly wrong; that goes double for preconceptions. Let's keep our heads cool and tightly screwed-on, wait until the actual product's release, and make our judgments then. A voice of Reason-quick shoot him, before he infects us all:P :D
GothicDan 09-27-07, 10:40 PM	Oh noes, something is difficult. Let's oversimplify it. Sure glad they don't do that with physics. Sure, when they find logical simplifications that elegantly describe more things EQUALLY WELL OR BETTER... But that's a different story. People who take the easier paths gain NO respect from me. So what Ubber suggests is a reason for me to DISLIKE things more.
msatran 09-27-07, 10:49 PM	Ditto that, Dan. Richard Baker is taking the coward's way out with this. I have decided, a la Cato, to beg for an end to the stupidity. All of my posts shall now deliberately be signed "Richard Baker Must Be Stopped" in the time honored manner of "Carthage Must Be Destroyed." Richard Baker Must Be Stopped
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-27-07, 11:02 PM	People who take the easier paths gain NO respect from me. So what Ubber suggests is a reason for me to DISLIKE things more. Yeah, I thought that it was considered a GOOD thing--a sign of quality--when a setting had a vast amount of history and detail. Besides, as has been said before, you don't HAVE to dig down to the bottom of all the lore if you aren't inclined to.
The Ubbergeek 09-27-07, 11:06 PM	Ditto that, Dan. Richard Baker is taking the coward's way out with this. I have decided, a la Cato, to beg for an end to the stupidity. All of my posts shall now deliberately be signed "Richard Baker Must Be Stopped" in the time honored manner of "Carthage Must Be Destroyed." Richard Baker Must Be Stopped Easier or simpler =/= more bland or dumb. Which is sadly what GothicDan seems to think. 'Bah, the youngs... they will learn by digesting all of this with time, like us. If they can't, it will be because they are not deserving.'
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-27-07, 11:18 PM	'Bah, the youngs... they will learn by digesting all of this with time, like us. That usually is how it works. If they can't, it will be because they are not deserving.' I wouldn't pass that kind of judgment. Of course, I do think that if one can't be bothered with learning the setting, it's an obvious sign that they aren't that interested in it to begin with.
GothicDan 09-28-07, 01:23 PM	I have decided, a la Cato, to beg for an end to the stupidity. All of my posts shall now deliberately be signed "Richard Baker Must Be Stopped" in the time honored manner of "Carthage Must Be Destroyed." Richard Baker Must Be Stopped <3 Rino: Indeed. If someone's truly interested in something, they'll put forth the time and effort to learn of it. Also: Ubber is only 29.
Bonzai 09-28-07, 02:45 PM	My new theory as to why the mass deicide, lies in WotC's new policy, where they flat out stated that there would be no setting specific rules in 4.0. That a player in one setting could make a transition to another without having to learn any additional rules. Given that, Mystra, the weave, and the shadow weave all had to go, and I suppose that means Red wizards, Incantrixes, Teflamar shadow lords, and all the other realm specific prc's must go too. Expedition to Undermountain was a glimpse at the future. Anything realm specific was yanked out of it, so that it could be played in any setting. I think the same is going to be true in 4th edition with the deities. WotC felt that the Realms had to many deities, and that they wanted to bring it to a base number that could be easily swapped out with the core rulebook deities. For example, if they put out a mod about an temple to an evil god of undeath, in the core you would use Nerull, and in the realms you would use Velarashoon. Thats my theory anyways. Welcome to the age of cookie cutter campaign settings!
Alediran 09-28-07, 03:43 PM	My new theory as to why the mass deicide, lies in WotC's new policy, where they flat out stated that there would be no setting specific rules in 4.0. That a player in one setting could make a transition to another without having to learn any additional rules. Given that, Mystra, the weave, and the shadow weave all had to go, and I suppose that means Red wizards, Incantrixes, Teflamar shadow lords, and all the other realm specific prc's must go too. Expedition to Undermountain was a glimpse at the future. Anything realm specific was yanked out of it, so that it could be played in any setting. I think the same is going to be true in 4th edition with the deities. WotC felt that the Realms had to many deities, and that they wanted to bring it to a base number that could be easily swapped out with the core rulebook deities. For example, if they put out a mod about an temple to an evil god of undeath, in the core you would use Nerull, and in the realms you would use Velarashoon. Thats my theory anyways. Welcome to the age of cookie cutter campaign settings! Yes, I also thought that this is what WotC is making with all those changes and they are absolutely horrible. One of the best things of being a FR DM was seeing the face of a player who never played in the realms (but played core D&D) when they encounter so many things that he never thought as possible (for example a deity of magic who isn't true neutral)
PharaunMizzrym 09-28-07, 04:08 PM	Though it does bring up the question, if all the settings are essentially now the same, why play anything that isnt core?
Dark Wizard 09-29-07, 02:21 AM	Easier or simpler =/= more bland or dumb. Which is sadly what GothicDan seems to think. 'Bah, the youngs... they will learn by digesting all of this with time, like us. If they can't, it will be because they are not deserving.' I see it as WotC treating the symptoms (laundry list of why the Realms are stale/bloated/stupid/sucks/etc.) that people complain about but not addressing the actual disease (which I think the majority is just how the Realms are presented). Then WotC can (not saying it will, but the expectation is low) fail to make the Realms good in their misguided attempt to simplify things or make it easier for players to get into, thus it will turn out bland or dumb. All one has to realize is that most of the problems people complain about are virtually all tied to the ToT and similar events. It is highly unlikely that an even bigger RSE like the Spellplague will magically and suddenly fix things. This can only be fixed by a gradual process and lots of hard work on the part of the designers. They have to show all gamers that the basic framework of the Realms is a viable game setting before they go about massive changes. If the foundation is bad (which it isn't in this case) then any remodeling you do is still doomed to rapid decay. Plus WotC staffers should show some confidence in the work of those who came before, many of whom were or are colleagues, friends, or even superiors. Some of those responsible for the old "baggage" are still working on the setting today, including most members of the in-house design team.
Fingoldfin 10-03-07, 10:25 AM	It looks to me like part of the problem is Rich Baker. He doesn't seem to like the Realms and I think wotc decided that the Realms need younger players. In the ask the game designer thread Baker called the Realms an "ossified setting played and read only by a slowly diminishing audience of old-timers." It is nice to see the game designers repeating the stereotype that has held the Forgotten Realms back.:rolleyes: There is an RSE every six months in the Realms! It is the least ossified setting in D&D. I think the wording he used makes it clear he doesn't like or give a :censored: about the "old-timers" that play in the Realms. I guess he didn't notice that it is the "old-timers" that buy the Realms products. Until this spellplague crap I liked Rich Baker.
GothicDan 10-03-07, 10:47 AM	You were fooled. You should have checked for traps.
Bluenose 10-03-07, 11:19 AM	It looks to me like part of the problem is Rich Baker. He doesn't seem to like the Realms and I think wotc decided that the Realms need younger players. In the ask the game designer thread Baker called the Realms an "ossified setting played and read only by a slowly diminishing audience of old-timers." It is nice to see the game designers repeating the stereotype that has held the Forgotten Realms back.:rolleyes: One thing to bear in mind is that he has access to the sales figures. You might disagree with the analysis of why, but if he claims the audience is diminishing then that's probably based on sales figures which show reduced sales of FR books. I also suggest you look at a few RPG message boards in the sections where people look for games or players. See how many of those say FR compared to Eberron or GH or something else. And if you're friendly with the owner of your local game store (if you have one) ask how FR sales are compared to other settings, or generic books. Ultimately a game setting needs people to play it, and if they aren't there in sufficient numbers no company can afford to keep producing for it.
Alediran 10-03-07, 11:24 AM	if they aren't there in sufficient numbers no company can afford to keep producing for it. At least for the Realms it doesn't necessary mean the setting going stagnant, all thanks to Ed's contract. If WotC stopped producing FR products, the setting would revert to him.
Bluenose 10-03-07, 11:43 AM	At least for the Realms it doesn't necessary mean the setting going stagnant, all thanks to Ed's contract. If WotC stopped producing FR products, the setting would revert to him. Which wouldn't necessarily mean very much if he hasn't got the money to publish new material himself, or he wasn't able to find another company willing to take on publication. Though if the latter happened, I suspect this whole ******* mess would just start up all over again.
GothicDan 10-03-07, 01:09 PM	I'm perfectly happy with Ed's answers online supplementing older products, myself. I don't need shiny covers or nice art.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-03-07, 02:07 PM	It looks to me like part of the problem is Rich Baker. He doesn't seem to like the Realms and I think wotc decided that the Realms need younger players. In the ask the game designer thread Baker called the Realms an "ossified setting played and read only by a slowly diminishing audience of old-timers." It is nice to see the game designers repeating the stereotype that has held the Forgotten Realms back.:rolleyes: If the old-timers are such a minor audience, then why are the FR products still selling? Who's buying them, if the people who love the setting are a shrinking, dying audience?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-03-07, 02:07 PM	I'm perfectly happy with Ed's answers online supplementing older products, myself. I don't need shiny covers or nice art. Indeed...and some of the art isn't even all that nice.
Markustay 10-03-07, 06:04 PM	Indeed...and some of the art isn't even all that nice.'Angler-fish' Star Elves, anyone? ;) Seriously, the next time the designers like the pictures their seven year olds draw, they should just hang them on the refrigerator like the rest of us do. :rolleyes: In a strange way, I'm starting to feel good about whats happening. The setting is finally at peace now. :ghosted: No more pain and suffering - it was a quick death, unlike poor GH.
Fingoldfin 10-03-07, 10:03 PM	You were fooled. You should have checked for traps. I was fooled Dan. I put all of my skill points into knowledge (the Realms). I should have saved some for spot, listen, and sense motive.;)
Fingoldfin 10-03-07, 10:12 PM	'Angler-fish' Star Elves, anyone? ;) Seriously, the next time the designers like the pictures their seven year olds draw, they should just hang them on the refrigerator like the rest of us do. :rolleyes: In a strange way, I'm starting to feel good about whats happening. The setting is finally at peace now. :ghosted: No more pain and suffering - it was a quick death, unlike poor GH. The Realms are not dead. If they were then ownership would go back to Ed of the Greenwoods and the Realms could be resurrected. Sadly, WotC will turn Forgotten Realms into an undead monster in 4e that they can abuse forever.:(
GothicDan 10-03-07, 10:12 PM	Indeed.
Fingoldfin 10-03-07, 10:56 PM	One thing to bear in mind is that he has access to the sales figures. You might disagree with the analysis of why, but if he claims the audience is diminishing then that's probably based on sales figures which show reduced sales of FR books. I also suggest you look at a few RPG message boards in the sections where people look for games or players. See how many of those say FR compared to Eberron or GH or something else. And if you're friendly with the owner of your local game store (if you have one) ask how FR sales are compared to other settings, or generic books. Ultimately a game setting needs people to play it, and if they aren't there in sufficient numbers no company can afford to keep producing for it. I believe that the Realms sales are slipping a little. Wizards chose to spotlight Eberron as the setting for new players. That is not a reason to call the Realms ossified and it is not a reason to nuke the setting. I don't like many of the changes that they are making to the Realms and I don't like how they have responded to Realms fans. WotC's attitude is who cares what all you "old-timers" think? We are trying to get younger players. All of you old farts can take a hike. I am friends with the owner of my local game store. He has never sold an Eberron book. He has a hand full of Realms customers. Most of his D&D sales are for core books. MM1-5, DMG, PHB, Spell Comp., Magic Item Comp., etc. There are a few DMs running games in the store and they all have home brew worlds. He did tell me today that he is worried about 4e. He said some of his older customers will just keep running 3.5e. Luckily he makes most of his money from mtg and comic books. He also said that the high school and middle school kids that game in his store don't buy books. They don't have jobs or money so they share PHBs. These are the kids WotC wants to play in the Realms. These are the kids 4e is designed to appeal to. When I first started playing D&D I didn't have any money. My friends and I got the PHB and the DMG at the library and renewed them for two years. Kids don't have the money to buy all the new Realms books. I'm done my rant. Happy gaming. :D
18DELTA 10-03-07, 11:58 PM	Eric Mona from Paizo said that in 1999 WotC wanted to fire all their current customers. But decided against it. Maybe this is WotC way of saying your fired, without Donald Trump trying to sue them for using his phrase. Just go get Rosie to champion the 4E FR!;)
GothicDan 10-04-07, 11:56 AM	I'd believe it.
Realms Walker 10-04-07, 01:24 PM	Also there tends to be a trend away from alignment restrictions on Good vs Evil. It's a way to entice younger players who have not been raised by their parents to have a concept of "good" ethical behavior yet allow them to play that "really cool" Paladin...yes slaughter the whole village of innocents. Sadly in terms of Theology Morals are subjective as per the society you live in and the belief structures of your church. The Crusades for example were something wholly supported by the church and atrocities of horrific proportions were committed because not only did those that performed them believe they were in the right but the church and its congregation also were backing them. Another more blaringly obvious example of this would be the dropping of the atomic bomb on targets in Japan. According to most estimates, the bombing of Hiroshima killed approximately 70,000 people due to immediate effects of the blast. Estimates of total deaths by the end of 1945 range from 90,000 to 140,000, due to burns, radiation, and subsequent disease, aggravated by lack of medical resources. Some estimates state up to 200,000 may have died by 1950, due to cancer and other long-term effects. The numbers for Nagasaki are consistently lower, because the valley terrain reduced the impact of the bomb, with immediate deaths estimates ranging from 40,000 to 75,000. In both cities, the overwhelming majority of the deaths were civilians. So as you can see anyone can fool themselves into performing acts that to some cultures might be abominable. A Paladin can do whatever he feels in terms of his belief system. D&D has had this rather irrational belief that a Paladin is a shinning white knight that doesn't commit horrid acts but in terms of atleast real life history and general dogma in game terms a Paladin can do many nasty things if players just put some depth and struggle into a Paladins actual Psyche. Secondly alignment in D&D has been so loose regardless of how many definitions or sourcebooks that come out to help a player grasp the concept of what an alignment is it still is a little followed roleplaying sticking point. Most players I have ran for, Seen play in person or has commented on these boards the concept of Alignment is a few words written on the character sheet instead of something that should help guide there character morally through various in game situations and crisis's. /bow
Bonzai 10-04-07, 02:59 PM	One thing to bear in mind is that he has access to the sales figures. You might disagree with the analysis of why, but if he claims the audience is diminishing then that's probably based on sales figures which show reduced sales of FR books. I believe that sales are down. Look at the crap that they have been releasing lately. They go from great products like Serpent Kingdoms and the Unapproachable East to products like Mysteries of the Moonseas and Expedition to Undermountain. Aside from the Grand History of the Realms, the last realms book I bought was Champions of Ruin (nice mix of lore, crunch, and some insane npc's). Dragons of Faerun almost got me, for the lore, but for the most part most of the realms books coming out have not been worth getting. I think that WotC needs to evaluate the products they are putting out, before they state that the setting is "dieing" from a diminishing player base.
18DELTA 10-04-07, 06:21 PM	I believe that sales are down. Look at the crap that they have been releasing lately. They go from great products like Serpent Kingdoms and the Unapproachable East to products like Mysteries of the Moonseas and Expedition to Undermountain. Aside from the Grand History of the Realms, the last realms book I bought was Champions of Ruin (nice mix of lore, crunch, and some insane npc's). Dragons of Faerun almost got me, for the lore, but for the most part most of the realms books coming out have not been worth getting. I think that WotC needs to evaluate the products they are putting out, before they state that the setting is "dieing" from a diminishing player base. Well with the products that came out last year they knew that 4E was coming. I have allmost everything realms related for 3E, & 3.5. I noticed a decline in quality. They knew that the Realms were going to get nuked. This is WotC way of saying your fired!!!! Thank you for your support, but we dont need oldtimers anymore. We want munchkins that like Eberron now. I feel like a second class gamer, because I love the REALMS.:yuck: :rolleye2: :waits: :raincloud :pbbbtt: :surrender :allalone: :ahem: :noway: :bored: :blush: :uh-huh: :rant: :nonono: :bigeyes: :censored: :tantrum: :headexplo :banghead: :hoppingma
Fingoldfin 10-06-07, 03:07 AM	Hi Realms Walker, I agree w/ you that our history books are filled w/ people who have done evil deeds and claimed that they were good. I think that what Silverleaf is talking about is hack-n-slash gamers. I'm not saying hack-n-slash is wrong. It is just not my cup of tea. The HnS gamer is interested in killing something, taking its stuff, and going up in level. It looks like 4e is built to attract this type of player from the mmorpg worlds. Look at what WotC has been saying about 4e. It's faster, easier, the PCs have more powers, level advancement is 50% faster...etc 4e is focused on combat and level advancement. I have yet to see any 4e rules that support (role)-playing instead of (roll)-playing. I am a big fan of skills in 3.5e. Your PC can take a craft or profession skill that means the character has a life in addition to adventuring. It made games seem more real. It cause our group to have a lot of in game downtime and more (role)-playing. I don't think that they have anything to replace skills in 4e. If I'm wrong let me know.:)
Faraer 10-06-07, 02:59 PM	In terms of sales, I think we know these things pretty much for certain: The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting is one of the handful of top-selling D&D books Wizards has produced. Other Realms sourcebooks have sold consistently well enough to maintain the same product schedule of four 160-page books a year for seven years. They sell far fewer copies than the three core books, and fewer than the most widely appealing rules expansions. Though at a level that would make any RPG company smaller than Hasbro extremely happy. This is a systemic problem with world sourcebooks in general that no one has solved. There's been a falling-off of Realms sourcebook sales in the last few years. Not enough information exists to reliably diagnose why, i.e. the proportional effect of various known factors. (See "Donut Cores" (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/forgottenrumsstory.html).) Wizards has more information and expertise than we do, but less than they'd need to do very much more than guess, if their business is anything like other publishers I'm familiar with.
meto30 10-09-07, 05:47 PM	Heck with it. From this point on my campaigns shall ignore history after year 1375.
Stigger 10-09-07, 05:57 PM	Well, that would save on printing costs ultimately... and they could downsize the developer cadre once it was all homogenized... it would be horribly convenient to corporate I'm sure to strip D&D down to just the Core and forget anything else ever existed. ;) :D