Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Selvarin 10-07-07, 05:20 PM	Since some people think killing off Mystra's a tad tiresome, here's an alternate explanation: The current Mystra is aware of Shar's continuing threat and decides that the Weave (and the world) cannot handle the after-effects of a battle between the two, especially if she should die somehow. Knowing that that her loss is the single greatest point of weakness, she calls upon other likeminded deities who support magic and wizardry in some manner. They are rumored (after the fact) to be: Faerunian pantheon: Azuth, Savras, Velsharoon Dwarven: Dugmaren Brightmantle Elven: Corellon Laerthian, Sehahine Moonbow Gnomes: Baravar Cloakshadow, Garl Glittergold Mulhorandi: Isis, Thoth Note: With the exception of Velsharoon no evil deities are invited due to the risk of betrayal. Helm is asked to stand guard outside. Mystra declares that magic itself is in peril from Shar and that something must be done to safeguard the Weave. She offers those attending a hand in its governance in return for protecting it. In order to do that, however, they must work in concert to rework the Weave--and Mystra must relinquish some of her power. Knowing the cost, she summons her Chosen and lets them in on what is about to happen, and that they must give up most of their control (and power) in this matter. Of course, this does not go unnoticed. Shar finds out (possibly through Velsharoon but more likely she felt a shift somewhere). Either she wants to have her say, perhaps she wants to protect her Shadow Weave, or just to use the opportunity to kill Mystra. In order to get in where they're working upon the Weave, she enlists Cyric's help by passing information on to Tyr that the other gods are debating a grand matter but that he's been left out. Tyr decides that he's supposed to be there representing his own faction (this deliberately vague, needs ore work) and demands to get past Helm. Helm cannot do this as he made a promise to guard the door against everyone until the council is adjourned. Under the impression that it's critical for the future of the Realms, Tyr forces the issue and does battle with Helm. Cyric and Shar sneak in just after the Weave has been reworked and most of the other gods have left. Savras is slain almost out of hand by Shar, Azuth is gravely wounded, and Velsharoon escapes. The weakened Mystra is just barely the equal of Shar, but Cyric overpowers her and Mystra disappears. As this has occurred in Dweomerheart, the seat of Mystra's power, this should've dissolved the realms and sent gods reeling into the Astral Plane. It does not, as the other magic deities assert their control in order to maintain it. They reappear and force them out. Dweomerheart becomes a central meeting point for the Arcane Council, they administer the Weave jointly, and Azuth acts as a 'regent' of sorts. Meanwhile, at the gates, Tyr has slain Helm, and upon doing so knows that he has been duped into doing something shameful. Knowing Cyric for who he is, he calls upon Sune and Lathander to help seek the criminal out and imprison him for his crimes. What are the after-effects? The nature of magic is funadmentally altered, and despite the best efforts of the council of arcane deities there are some negative consequences. Shar's actions during the battle had an poisonous effect and some arcanists indeed go mad or die as a result, but the Weave (such as it is) recovers. But in its wake, spellcasters find they must relearn the Art somewhat--there are spaces in their knowledge, now, and they must conduct more research. Higher-level spellcasters have a harder time 'unlearning' the old and 'relearning' the new, as they were very attuned to the rules of the Weave. God-wise, no sole deity controls or administers the Weave. Azuth chairs the council in Mystra's place while waiting for Mystra to reappear, or for a new goddess of magic to be chosen. (Ao is silent on the matter, naturally.) The Shadow Weave is destroyed, either by the Weave's temporary disruption or by the Council's conscious effort to remove it. Helm remains slain. Torm takes up the mantle, so to speak, with some reservation. Ownership of his former temples are transferred to Torm's church, while some find others to serve--Bane in particular for evil types. None choose Tyr, counting him as an enemy, with some orders created to undermine Tyr's presence among the populace. Cyric is imprisoned in his own domain, prevented from leaving for a thousand years. Tyr himself undergoes some changes, as he knows what his actions have caused, even though it was due to Cyric's lies. He now has eyes to see and is more careful of his actions than before. As for the Chosen, it's an open question. Some may have been present when Cyric and Shar attacked. Some may have died then or afterward in Faerun when the two evil deities commited their deed. Just a start.
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 05:40 PM	Since some people think killing off Mystra's a tad tiresome, here's an alternate explanation: The current Mystra is aware of Shar's continuing threat and decides that the Weave (and the world) cannot handle the after-effects of a battle between the two, especially if she should die somehow. Knowing that that her loss is the single greatest point of weakness, she calls upon other likeminded deities who support magic and wizardry in some manner. They are rumored (after the fact) to be: Faerunian pantheon: Azuth, Savras, Velsharoon Dwarven: Dugmaren Brightmantle Elven: Corellon Laerthian, Sehahine Moonbow Gnomes: Baravar Cloakshadow, Garl Glittergold Mulhorandi: Isis, Thoth Note: With the exception of Velsharoon no evil deities are invited due to the risk of betrayal. Helm is asked to stand guard outside. Mystra declares that magic itself is in peril from Shar and that something must be done to safeguard the Weave. She offers those attending a hand in its governance in return for protecting it. In order to do that, however, they must work in concert to rework the Weave--and Mystra must relinquish some of her power. Knowing the cost, she summons her Chosen and lets them in on what is about to happen, and that they must give up most of their control (and power) in this matter. Of course, this does not go unnoticed. Shar finds out (possibly through Velsharoon but more likely she felt a shift somewhere). Either she wants to have her say, perhaps she wants to protect her Shadow Weave, or just to use the opportunity to kill Mystra. In order to get in where they're working upon the Weave, she enlists Cyric's help by passing information on to Tyr that the other gods are debating a grand matter but that he's been left out. Tyr decides that he's supposed to be there representing his own faction (this deliberately vague, needs ore work) and demands to get past Helm. Helm cannot do this as he made a promise to guard the door against everyone until the council is adjourned. Under the impression that it's critical for the future of the Realms, Tyr forces the issue and does battle with Helm. Cyric and Shar sneak in just after the Weave has been reworked and most of the other gods have left. Savras is slain almost out of hand by Shar, Azuth is gravely wounded, and Velsharoon escapes. The weakened Mystra is just barely the equal of Shar, but Cyric overpowers her and Mystra disappears. As this has occurred in Dweomerheart, the seat of Mystra's power, this should've dissolved the realms and sent gods reeling into the Astral Plane. It does not, as the other magic deities assert their control in order to maintain it. They reappear and force them out. Dweomerheart becomes a central meeting point for the Arcane Council, they administer the Weave jointly, and Azuth acts as a 'regent' of sorts. Meanwhile, at the gates, Tyr has slain Helm, and upon doing so knows that he has been duped into doing something shameful. Knowing Cyric for who he is, he calls upon Sune and Lathander to help seek the criminal out and imprison him for his crimes. What are the after-effects? The nature of magic is funadmentally altered, and despite the best efforts of the council of arcane deities there are some negative consequences. Shar's actions during the battle had an poisonous effect and some arcanists indeed go mad or die as a result, but the Weave (such as it is) recovers. But in its wake, spellcasters find they must relearn the Art somewhat--there are spaces in their knowledge, now, and they must conduct more research. Higher-level spellcasters have a harder time 'unlearning' the old and 'relearning' the new, as they were very attuned to the rules of the Weave. God-wise, no sole deity controls or administers the Weave. Azuth chairs the council in Mystra's place while waiting for Mystra to reappear, or for a new goddess of magic to be chosen. (Ao is silent on the matter, naturally.) The Shadow Weave is destroyed, either by the Weave's temporary disruption or by the Council's conscious effort to remove it. Helm remains slain. Torm takes up the mantle, so to speak, with some reservation. Ownership of his former temples are transferred to Torm's church, while some find others to serve--Bane in particular for evil types. None choose Tyr, counting him as an enemy, with some orders created to undermine Tyr's presence among the populace. Cyric is imprisoned in his own domain, prevented from leaving for a thousand years. Tyr himself undergoes some changes, as he knows what his actions have caused, even though it was due to Cyric's lies. He now has eyes to see and is more careful of his actions than before. As for the Chosen, it's an open question. Some may have been present when Cyric and Shar attacked. Some may have died then or afterward in Faerun when the two evil deities commited their deed. Just a start. While this is better than what they have and close to what I would like to see done it is still Cyric getting away with more than he should. I left out the attack and left Mystra in place...she is diminished because she shares the duty of guarding the Weave with others and becomes the first among equals. Since she is no longer the mega god she was she is forced down to one choosen. I also kept the attack by Cyric though it was foiled by a long in hiding and waiting Liera(she just fooled Cyric in thinking that he killed her and stole her portfolios which is explained how her CG clerics stiull got spells from Cyric though I don't know yet rather Mask was in on it or not) and he was imprisoned by Mystra. But this was the event that led to Mystra decision to divide the resposiblity of the Weave. The Shadow Weave get absorbed into the Weave. Also I have yet to see the purpose for the things leading up to Tyr killing Helm at all...it is just so pointless.
Selvarin 10-07-07, 06:16 PM	When writing alternatives I tend to straddle the middle ground. So, Mystra may have died or maybe she merely disappeared in this version, and the door's quite open for her to walk on through. Maybe she dissolved herself into the fabric of the Weave and took some time to come back together (in this version). I'm not positive or negative on Helm, but I figure if WotC's going to make him go (whether for dullness or duplication of responsibility) it should be for something better than a silly miscommunication that could've been solved merely by walking up and say, "Hey, what's going on here?". Some quarrel over Tymora is like...ugh. The whole contrivance for Sune's actions, and Siamorphe's, etc., makes my eyes go dry. The Cyric thing is just my take on WotC's attempt. It's obvious that he and Shar are working together in the Twilight War series, and they have some other connections as well. And if one's going to get through the door of a Greater Power, two rival Greater Powers are better than one. But you're right, he doesn't need to be there. He could just as easily be completely absent or perhaps in the shadows outside, silently egging Helm and Tyr into conflict. It's like the very air around him breeds distrust and murder.
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 06:46 PM	When writing alternatives I tend to straddle the middle ground. So, Mystra may have died or maybe she merely disappeared in this version, and the door's quite open for her to walk on through. Maybe she dissolved herself into the fabric of the Weave and took some time to come back together (in this version). I'm not positive or negative on Helm, but I figure if WotC's going to make him go (whether for dullness or duplication of responsibility) it should be for something better than a silly miscommunication that could've been solved merely by walking up and say, "Hey, what's going on here?". Some quarrel over Tymora is like...ugh. The whole contrivance for Sune's actions, and Siamorphe's, etc., makes my eyes go dry. The Cyric thing is just my take on WotC's attempt. It's obvious that he and Shar are working together in the Twilight War series, and they have some other connections as well. And if one's going to get through the door of a Greater Power, two rival Greater Powers are better than one. But you're right, he doesn't need to be there. He could just as easily be completely absent or perhaps in the shadows outside, silently egging Helm and Tyr into conflict. It's like the very air around him breeds distrust and murder. I perfered to write a alternative that makers everybody happy, or atleast more of the middle ground...shrug. Also it pretty does what WotC wants to do but without stepping on everybody else. Also hos is Helm dullness or duplication of responsibility? I mean none of the other gods even comes close to him in portfoloi...unless you are saying that there is no evil guards? Also I never find him dull....
Storm_Silverhand 10-07-07, 07:04 PM	Heya, Interesting take, but not the way I'm going about things. I have two options - if I don't like any of the changes in lore for 4e Realms, I'll just keep playing in the current game year and advance the timeline logically from there. If there is something redeeming about 4e Realms (I've yet to see it), the two major things that happen at the end of AGHotR won't happen in full. Cyric's and Shar's plan for Mystra just won't work... I wrote a short story where Mystra enlists Eilistraee (and ironically/unknowingly Vhaeraun) to help her deceive the deceiver when she realizes what's coming (if anyone's interested in reading this story, let me know and I can PM it to you, but be warned - it's quite femmeslashy). Cyric will try to kill Mystra, find her more than a match (or expecting him such that the element of surprise on his behalf is eliminated), and Shar will abandon him (loss being part of her portfolio, it's amazing she can succeed at anything) - since Cyric didn't succeed, he isn't imprisoned. Status Quo is retained, but Mystra decides it's past time to fix all those niggling little areas of Dead and Wild magic, and reorganizes the Weave to be consistent with 4e magic. Helm doesn't die, because the whole stupid plot about Sune arranging a political marriage between Tymora and Tyr doesn't happen, even though Siamorphe may still migrate to Brightwater. In an act of revenge for her plot's failure, Shar destroys the Shadow Weave which sends magical shock waves through the Weave - this is what causes the Spellplague, and it's all Mystra can do to keep the Weave intact, let alone stable. If I wanted to lessen Mystra's power, here's where I'd do it - because she is a young goddess and hasn't completely settled into her role, it is going to take her a long while (say 100 years ;)) to get the Weave back under control - this means that in the catastrophe, she looses a lot of worshipers due to her inability to fix this fast.
MattBlacke 10-08-07, 03:20 PM	I like these alternate takes. Is it necessary to kill off the goddess of Magic every single time they update? C'mon, people, let's try something new! :p Diminishing Mystra's power, I can certainly see that, as well as de-powering most of the Chosen. That will throw the Realms into plenty of chaos, between Blackstaff's death and Elminster's disappearance. Perhaps Mystra and Shar do throw down, with Cyric trying to backstab the young goddess. Cyric tricks Tyr into keeping the other gods from interfering, the 'man at the door' thing, but instead of Shar and Mystra coming to terms over the Shadow Weave, it's an ambush. The only one who isn't fooled is the Vigilant One, Helm. He tries to persuade Tyr to let him pass, but it finally comes down to Helm trying to honor Ao's decree to keep the gods from killing each other, and so he and Tyr begin slugging it out. Mystra, on her own, is forced to call upon the power she invested in her Chosen, but it's just barely enough to hold back her foe, and it stresses the Weave from the energy being drawn. Shar waits for the right opening, and when Mystra is distracted by Cyric, she drains the Shadow Weave to given her temporary power and attempts a killing blow. Helm manages to get past Tyr and through the door, and his attack wounds Shar throwing off her aim and turning a death blow into a wounding one. Helm gets run through from behind by Tyr, who then sees Cyric and Shar, and realizes he was set up. Shar, wounded and weakened by her failed attack, flees, and between Mystra and Tyr, Cyric is captured and imprisoned. Shar's attack leads Mystra to realize that even her system of placing part of her power in the Chosen cannot protect the Weave, as Shar's manipulations have shown. The battle has damaged the Weave badly, and magic has run wild on Toril. (OMG, it's the ToT2.0! :p ) In order to save it, she must give part of it up. So she calls upon the other deities of magic and together, they remake the Weave. Because of the new input, and new 'security features' added, magic functions differently. Mystra retires to the Dweomerheart to recover, now an intermediate goddess and one of many who maintain magic. Shar too is weakened, both by the battle and by the sanctions of the other gods. Cyric lays imprisoned, and Tyr blames himself for being tricked. Helm's dead, and his followers are taken up by other faiths, Torm, Illamater, and some even by Mystra and the other Magic deities like Azuth. It kind of balances the scales for the ToT, having Helm die saving Mystra just as he killed her, by doing his sworn duty. I admit, it does crib a bit off of all of yours, but I hope that's okay. :embarrass Storm, please do PM me with that story, it sounds very interesting. :)
Selvarin 10-08-07, 04:38 PM	Nope, Matt, that's fine. Trying to get a more plausible explanation of how things went down involve taking a bit here and there. In your scenario, you're suggesting that it starts with Shar and Mystra facing off. With regard to someone guarding the door, so to speak, there are other ways to handle it. Either way Helm or Tyr get lied to and what I'm thinking about the ultimate deception, that perhaps Cyric masquerades as Ao himself and orders Helm to guard a portal leading to Dweomerheart (and Mystra). If it's Helm then Tyr's the one who knows the truth, that Shar and Cyric are going to slay Mystra. If it's Tyr who's been misled, then perhaps he's led to believe that she's already dying and must get in there. Now, if Tyr is standing guard then Helm's the one who knows the truth and is trying to get past. Otherwise I like the idea of such a showdown proving to Mystra that magic requires more safeguarding than just herself. (At the same time I don't think she literally needs demoting to Intermediate status, my feeling is that she's had a lot of off-stage power to draw on besides that and this is one way of unloading the excess.)
MattBlacke 10-08-07, 10:03 PM	Nope, Matt, that's fine. Trying to get a more plausible explanation of how things went down involve taking a bit here and there. In your scenario, you're suggesting that it starts with Shar and Mystra facing off. With regard to someone guarding the door, so to speak, there are other ways to handle it. Either way Helm or Tyr get lied to and what I'm thinking about the ultimate deception, that perhaps Cyric masquerades as Ao himself and orders Helm to guard a portal leading to Dweomerheart (and Mystra). If it's Helm then Tyr's the one who knows the truth, that Shar and Cyric are going to slay Mystra. If it's Tyr who's been misled, then perhaps he's led to believe that she's already dying and must get in there. Now, if Tyr is standing guard then Helm's the one who knows the truth and is trying to get past. Otherwise I like the idea of such a showdown proving to Mystra that magic requires more safeguarding than just herself. (At the same time I don't think she literally needs demoting to Intermediate status, my feeling is that she's had a lot of off-stage power to draw on besides that and this is one way of unloading the excess.) For the most part yes, I see Mystra, being inexperienced and realizing what Shar's works are doing to the Weave, going to face Shar. Tyr I can see being misled, especially given Cyric's ability and Tyr's blindness. He may wish to make sure an equitable solution to the Weave/Shadow Weave situation is come to, and believe because they are equally powerful, that treachery would be foolish (especially with him right there). Helm has never trusted Shar. He bears no special affection for Mystra either, but he understands that if Shar continues her , Faerun will suffer greatly. So if he caught wind of the two of them, meeting, he'd want to be there to make sure any meeting remains civil, even if he has to point a longsword at both of them to do it. He's about keeping order. So he and Tyr could easily come to blows, especially if Helm demands entry. Diminishing Mystra may not be be necessary, but draining the Weave as a fight against Shar and Cyric would do, taking the power from her Chosen, and then remaking the Weave along with the others, I can see her ceding some of her power to the other deities to make her less crucial to magic's survival. That, I feel, is her ultimate goal. She has been only a goddess for (at that time) 25 years, and she was handed arguably the most power of virtually all the deities. Her taking a step back after this close call, giving her time to gain experience and to perhaps push her NG agenda without Ao looming over her head may be a good thing. It would certainly change the landscape a bit, and draw disparate deities together (of not always happily so).
MerrikCale 10-08-07, 11:04 PM	My alternate ending would be the scooby kids figure out the groundskeeper, Mr. Wilson, was Mystra all along