Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Suin Bahhar 11-06-07, 10:22 AM	Exerpts are out (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20071105a) Some interesting tidbits on Shars plans leading to the destruction of the weave. The old Agauthra the Mad had obtained the Book of the Black which held the Shadow roll of Years. Shar attempts to make this roll true by replacing the weave with the shadowweave or large dead magic zones. :eek:
18DELTA 11-06-07, 12:30 PM	I thought it was pretty interesting myself. The Shades having a set of the Nether Scrolls is kinda cool IMO!;)
Lord Karsus 11-06-07, 08:10 PM	The old Agauthra the Mad had obtained the Book of the Black which held the Shadow roll of Years. Shar attempts to make this roll true by replacing the weave with the shadowweave or large dead magic zones. :eek: -Now, if Shar knows that the Shadow Weave cannot exist without the Weave, why is she doing this? And, I don't think that, after thousands and thousands of years as the steward of the Shadow Weave, she wouldn't realize this...I don't know, is it me? The Shades having a set of the Nether Scrolls is kinda cool IMO!;) -Really...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-06-07, 08:40 PM	-Now, if Shar knows that the Shadow Weave cannot exist without the Weave, why is she doing this? And, I don't think that, after thousands and thousands of years as the steward of the Shadow Weave, she wouldn't realize this...I don't know, is it me? No, it's not just you. And I think the Shadow Roll of Years is dumb. "Gee, let's make a Shadow version of everything, wouldn't that be cool and badass?"
MarkusTay63 11-06-07, 11:06 PM	Actually, I think the Shadow Sea-serpent was hysterical! :rofl: Could Shadow-maters be far behind? :D Ah well, it seems that another of my trains of thought was correct.... I knew there was something in this new Shadow Roll of Years that had to do with the Spellplague, otherwise why create it NOW, at the end of 3e? Prophesy..... :rolleyes:
Mula 11-07-07, 12:01 AM	"Gee, let's make a Shadow version of everything, wouldn't that be cool and badass?" Yes.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-07-07, 09:01 AM	Are they going to make a shadow version of the 4E FR Campaign Guide too, then?
Mula 11-07-07, 09:55 AM	You're on to something there! Seriously though, the very nature of Shadow in D&D is being a mirror of the real thing. The Shadow Plane is a shadow version of the real world, shadow spells mimic real spells, and so on.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-07-07, 10:08 AM	You're on to something there! Indeed I am! Seriously though, the very nature of Shadow in D&D is being a mirror of the real thing. The Shadow Plane is a shadow version of the real world, shadow spells mimic real spells, and so on. Maybe, but hearing about all this "shadowcrap" gets tiring after awhile, and I don't really believe in too much "symmetry", either (ie. "we need a goodly version of X, a shadow version of Y, an evil version of Z").
Alrunic Silverfyre 11-07-07, 10:22 AM	So let's check WoTC's algebra: X+Y/Z= 4th edition Realms Razing!
Lord Karsus 11-07-07, 11:15 AM	Are they going to make a shadow version of the 4E FR Campaign Guide too, then? -Should I buy that?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-07-07, 12:14 PM	-Should I buy that? Isn't that the question of the day? I'm thinking it might not be a bad idea.:P
18DELTA 11-07-07, 01:48 PM	Isn't that the question of the day? I'm thinking it might not be a bad idea.:P If Cale and Riven are in it, then it would be a great idea!:D
Muddman72 11-07-07, 04:34 PM	Shar isn't trying to destroy the weave altogether, shes trying to create dead magic in which only her magic will work. I think thats a great idea, make it so my magic works and yours doesn't, that often means I win. Now as for why Shar wants to destroy the Weave (by helping Cyric killing Mystra), it was an attempt to destroy the world and return everything to the void blah blah blah. After years of playing the realms, I'm glad they're shaking things up and I don't find the coming events as unbelievable, more like "what took you so freaking long?!" I just re-read the post and realized it sounds grumpy, which I'm not, I just like the plot lines of these adventures. I think part of it is that I never analyzed the union of the shadow weave and Mystra's weave, so when they tweak it I'm not bothered by it. Also the Shades are a GREAT villian that really didn't do anything until now, so I'm finally happy to see the sleeping lion roar! By the way Leaves of One Night and the Book of the Black are both talked about in the recent Erevis Cale books (Shadowbred and Shadowstorm) which is giving me an insight into these books and what they mean. Its gives me a chill to see my PCs working on things that coincide with these books I love. So in short, Bravo WoTC (for once). Just my opinion, cheers! :)
Butterface 11-07-07, 05:08 PM	Yes, the synopsis in the introduction is exactly that: a synopsis. Shar isn't trying to create Dead Magic zones as we know them, but by having her followers use mysterious rituals and shadow magic artifacts she's trying to mass produce tailored Dead Magic zones where the Shadow Weave works just fine, it's just the Weave that gets boned. My group is just finishing Cormyr: A Tearing of the Weave. I too, really enjoy the overall plot of this adventure arc.
Butterface 11-07-07, 05:12 PM	By the way Leaves of One Night and the Book of the Black are both talked about in the recent Erevis Cale books (Shadowbred and Shadowstorm) which is giving me an insight into these books and what they mean. Its gives me a chill to see my PCs working on things that coincide with these books I love. So in short, Bravo WoTC (for once). Just my opinion, cheers! :) It's my opinion too! :) The Shadowdale adventure comes right on the heels of the Last Mythal series, so there's a lot of interplay with those novels if a DM wants that. And finally, an adventure series that doesn't try to re-establish the status quo by the end of the story. Prominent evil Realms NPC's get the axe in these adventures, and it's the PC's that give em what they've had coming! Bravo, indeed.
gomeztoo 11-08-07, 08:17 AM	No, it's not just you. And I think the Shadow Roll of Years is dumb. "Gee, let's make a Shadow version of everything, wouldn't that be cool and badass?" Welll, she is all alone in the dark, she probably has waaaay to much time on her hands.
MarkusTay63 11-08-07, 05:13 PM	Isn't that the question of the day? I'm thinking it might not be a bad idea.:PWell, since the 'Shadow-version' of stuff is like it's diametric opposite, then most of us would LOVE the 4e Shadow FRCG. Ain't that a kick in the head? :P There is only one page in the book though - "Nothing happened... NOTHING. The world is exactly the same as it always was and nothing has changed since 1357 DR. People haven't even aged! Move along now... nothing to see here..." :incog: I bet it would sell better then the one with 130 pgs. ;)
selunatic2397 11-08-07, 06:51 PM	About a third of the book is just an appendix on the Anauroch desert? It seems to have a cliched ending though...why save the weave and mystra only to have it all die next year??? :confused: Since I have already have disposed of Windsong Towers treasures, I will have to rewrite the entire thing... Oh well...on the 16th of november in my game world...Shar dies... :evillaugh And my gamers will probably have forgotten my warning that an elder goddess will not go quietly into the darkness... More fun for me! :D
Lord Karsus 11-08-07, 07:40 PM	Well, since the 'Shadow-version' of stuff is like it's diametric opposite, then most of us would LOVE the 4e Shadow FRCG. Ain't that a kick in the head? :P -I was thinking that too! :) There is only one page in the book though - -I hope it doesn't sell for normal WotC sourcebook prices. $29.99 is a little steep for one page. Unless it was made of gold...
selunatic2397 11-08-07, 07:43 PM	I'll hold out for the single mithril page edition! :)
18DELTA 11-08-07, 08:16 PM	There is only one page in the book though - "Nothing happened... NOTHING. The world is exactly the same as it always was and nothing has changed since 1357 DR. People haven't even aged! Move along now... nothing to see here..." :incog: That made me think of the movie Men in Black. Will they have those gizmos that makes you forget what just happened?:incog: :incog: Maybe Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones can save FR! "Here comes the Men in Black, The Forgotten Realms Defenders!" :rofl: :D
runestar 11-09-07, 03:30 AM	I can already spot some errors... I am not sure why Darcassan the Adroit, a diviner 13/expert2 (cr14) is listed as cr16 (I can only assume that the shadow existence trait is some powerful template which accounts for the other +2cr). Despite being a diviner, none of the spells he has memorized are divination spells, nor does he seem particularly threatening (quickened acid arrow?!?) for a cr16 challenge anyways (too few hp, a lucky fireball may all but do him in). And I guess I will be picking it up as well...:P
Stigger 11-09-07, 07:32 AM	Hmmm... amazing. Not one of those adventures is going to be even remotely appealing to me it seems.
Red_Wizard 11-09-07, 11:46 AM	-Now, if Shar knows that the Shadow Weave cannot exist without the Weave, why is she doing this? And, I don't think that, after thousands and thousands of years as the steward of the Shadow Weave, she wouldn't realize this...I don't know, is it me? Because she doesn't have the portfolio for it, which would suggest she wouldn't be affected severely by its loss. Unlike Mystra who without the weave is nothing. Sometimes one must sacrifice a lot, to gain even more. In this case the loss of the Shadow Weave would pale in comparison to the victory at last over Mystra, and breaking free of her strangle hold on all magic Arcane and Divine. My view on it anyway. -RW
Lord Karsus 11-09-07, 12:24 PM	Because she doesn't have the portfolio for it, which would suggest she wouldn't be affected severely by its loss. Unlike Mystra who without the weave is nothing. Sometimes one must sacrifice a lot, to gain even more. In this case the loss of the Shadow Weave would pale in comparison to the victory at last over Mystra, and breaking free of her strangle hold on all magic Arcane and Divine. My view on it anyway. -RW -A theory that works. However, the Shadow Weave brings Shar untold power and whatnot, by allowing her to attract worshippers and get them in her stranglehold. Without knowing that victory is imminent, I know I wouldn't begin sacrificing something so important.
buzzard 11-09-07, 12:41 PM	It probably has something to do with "Shar's greatest moment of weakness", in order to overcome her greatest foe first she must stay true to her portfolio and lose something herself (and something quite valuable) to defeat Mystra.
Lord Karsus 11-09-07, 12:46 PM	It probably has something to do with "Shar's greatest moment of weakness", in order to overcome her greatest foe first she must stay true to her portfolio and lose something herself (and something quite valuable) to defeat Mystra. -Hmm, good thinkin' there.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-09-07, 01:32 PM	Shar does not have, and never will have, any true weaknesses, because she is WotC's favorite FR deity.
Suin Bahhar 11-09-07, 04:32 PM	Huh? I thought that was Bloopdilpoolp ;)
Mula 11-09-07, 05:09 PM	Shar does not have, and never will have, any true weaknesses, because she is WotC's favorite FR deity.Shadow is cool and badass. Your words, Rinona. :P
MarkusTay63 11-09-07, 06:01 PM	About a third of the book is just an appendix on the Anauroch desert? It seems to have a cliched ending though...why save the weave and mystra only to have it all die next year???I was thinking much the same thing - VERY anti-climactic. :bored: Obviously there is absolutely no point in buying and running this thing, since it will all be for naught a year later. Huh? I thought that was Bloopdilpoolp ;)No, it's Drizzt, demi-god of Fanboys. :P
Stigger 11-09-07, 06:01 PM	Yes, and taken completely out of context... well done you. :rolleyes:
Suin Bahhar 11-09-07, 06:27 PM	My bad.
Lord Karsus 11-09-07, 07:14 PM	-Hey, no dissing Bloopdilpoolp.
philnicau 11-09-07, 07:53 PM	on my copy, it states on the front cover for character levels 9-13, it should be 14-17.
MarkusTay63 11-09-07, 08:18 PM	So, is it just one long, boring encounter like the previous one, or the CotSQ? Cause, like, we could just grab the monster manual and do the same thing. :bored:
ywhtptgtfo 11-09-07, 08:40 PM	Man... why is WotC doing everything the wrong way?
strife_001 11-10-07, 12:29 AM	Shar does not have, and never will have, any true weaknesses, because she is WotC's favorite FR deity. Two things: 1: Look what happened to Aoskar 2: Isn't Mask /everyone's/ favorite diety?
Red_Wizard 11-10-07, 09:05 AM	-A theory that works. However, the Shadow Weave brings Shar untold power and whatnot, by allowing her to attract worshippers and get them in her stranglehold. Without knowing that victory is imminent, I know I wouldn't begin sacrificing something so important. If the latter lore is true that it is indeed one with the weave, Shar would only sacrifice it by destroying the weave. So if she fails, no loss, and if she succeeds minor loss for major victory. Also, I like the "Loss" thought process by Buzzard. -RW
MarkusTay63 11-10-07, 03:46 PM	Yes, that was an excellent train of thought. :) Perhaps it is the ONLY way she could accomplish the feat - by working within her 'Loss' portfolio, it allowed her to slip under Ao's radar. As far as Cyric is concerned, all the first four of his portfolios apply - only Illusion wouldn't really help him in that situation (unless that is somehow how he 'tricked' his way into getting close enough to murder Mystra, but something tells me her control of Magic overides his control of Illusions... but who knows?) On the surface, the blurb in the GHotR was very disenfranchising to fans of the setting, but there could very well be a good story hidden in there. The Helm/Tyr thing though, I don't hold much hope for.
Red_Wizard 11-10-07, 11:55 PM	Perhaps he was able to use the portfolio of Illusion to gain access to Dweomerheart. She might have put up safety protocols to keep his other Portfolios at bay, but overlooked the fact he is also a god of Magic in a small way. -RW
MarkusTay63 11-11-07, 01:43 PM	I like that a lot. The small area where their portfolios overlap is what gave him his 'in'. Which would be exactly why Shar needed him for this.
Zsych 11-11-07, 07:39 PM	Hmm... this thing actually seems somewhat interesting. I think I might just buy it. .. also I'm not sure there's anything actually wrong with succeeding this year but being defeated the next.. just life. Stuff like that just tends to make me laugh/cry :) Naturally Shar has been planning for a long time, and a single defeat shouldn't be enough to stop her(assuming that it is a real defeat) I wonder what the reborn Netheril will be like. Will there be more enclaves or just two still. Will PC mages be the ones raising new enclaves at higher levels?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-11-07, 08:38 PM	A single defeat would never stop Shar (or even be much of a defeat) because she is WotC's favorite deity.
Stigger 11-12-07, 12:57 AM	The plot flag really does help quite a bit...
Red_Wizard 11-12-07, 11:05 AM	I'd like to add something taken from pp. 103 of the novel "Shadowstorm" By Paul S. Kemp. "....It hinted at more, at a moment of necessary weakness but ultimate triumph for the Lady of Loss, a time when she would devour the shadow." This more than anything I think further suggests that Shar does indeed sacrifice the Shadow Weave itself to in turn garner a great victory over her foe Mystra. This would also explain why she went public with something she'd spent Millennium hiding from even the other gods. Perhaps the sudden rush of power she could garner from new worshipers at its unveiling, would be enough to sustain her in the moment when a portion of her power would be lost. Creating a buffer of sorts against any retaliatory measures taken by other gods. -RW
Stigger 11-12-07, 03:26 PM	Now that is an interesting thought there RW... actually makes some sense for her as well.
GoldDragon 11-14-07, 08:03 AM	Are they going to make a shadow version of the 4E FR Campaign Guide too, then? Naw, 4e IS the "Shadow version" of the Realms, the "Diet cola" of the FR, Just 1 calorie, not "True FR enough".
18DELTA 11-14-07, 08:10 AM	Naw, 4e IS the "Shadow version" of the Realms, the "Diet cola" pf the FR, Just 1 calorie, not "True FR enough". Nah its more like Diet RC Cola!:D
Aerostoth 11-19-07, 11:01 AM	That made me think of the movie Men in Black. Will they have those gizmos that makes you forget what just happened?:incog: :incog: Maybe Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones can save FR! "Here comes the Men in Black, The Forgotten Realms Defenders!" :rofl: :D same here!
Asgetrion 11-19-07, 07:35 PM	Shadow is cool and badass. Your words, Rinona. :P Shadows *ROCK*! (even more than the 4E Design Team!!!) :P
Aerostoth 11-19-07, 11:06 PM	yeah, shadows for the win:w00t: that includes shadowcasters
Aerostoth 11-20-07, 02:38 PM	Hey, Im going to start "Cormyr the Tearing of the Weave" soon, and one of my players wants to be a catfolk ninja. Are there any problems with that (i don't have the book yet)?
Stigger 11-20-07, 03:57 PM	Er... not per se, though I'm having a hard time figuring out how that backstory would fit in the Realms... Thesk maybe... but I can't say I've ever really thought to include ninjas in the Realms apart from Kara-Tur. But hey, its your game, do what you want with it.
Aerostoth 11-20-07, 04:09 PM	ok thanks.
Uzzy 11-20-07, 05:23 PM	Why wouldn't the Lady of Loss be willing to lose something like the Shadow Weave in order to destroy one of her greatest enemies, Mystra? I think the level of hatred Shar bares for Mystra would make such a decision a no-brainer for her, especially with the Mystra's using their superior magical knowledge to weaken it (See Champions of Valour, with the Guardians of the Weave and the Dead Shadow Weave Area spell). Anyway, I quite like the adventures. I won't be converting to 4th Edition, so they fit in quite nicely for me, and there won't be any of this 'Why are we saving Mystra if she dies in ten years time?'
Aerostoth 11-20-07, 05:32 PM	The weave creates a shadow, which is the shadow weave. Shar doesn't need to completely destroy the weave, she just needs to make it useless (dead magic areas). If Shar punctures enough holes in the weave, it will still be there, but to broken to use. if you hit your keyboard with a bat, it will break. It will still be there, creating a shadow, but will be unusable. That is what Shar is doing to the weave. She is tearing holes in it until it falls apart, At which time, Mystra will exist, but be in a state similar to paralysis. Shar will gain the upper hand against Selune, and Selune will end up destroying the remains of the weave completely to remove its shadow, the shadow weave.
Mula 11-20-07, 11:37 PM	Actually, Shar just kills Mystra. Using her pawn Cyric.
Aerostoth 11-21-07, 11:29 AM	Oh well.
18DELTA 11-24-07, 01:52 PM	The Modual also introduces some new info on Karsus(Pawn of Shar to kill Mystrly(sp))!:P
Lord Karsus 11-24-07, 02:14 PM	The Modual also introduces some new info on Karsus(Pawn of Shar to kill Mystrly(sp))!:P -WTF!? -Yet more newly introduced retconned information to be ignored...:rolleyes: -Karsus, like most Netherese, was akin to one of the Athar. Shar wouldn't have any power over him.
SilentMan 11-24-07, 02:16 PM	Is there any way to make this Cormyr/Shadowdale/Anauroch-adventure work if PCs are Zhentarim agents ?
Mr_Miscellany 11-24-07, 02:35 PM	The Modual also introduces some new info on Karsus(Pawn of Shar to kill Mystrly(sp))!:P You know, I've already introduced the possiblitiy of this in my campaign...something like four or five years ago. It's nice to see the designers headed in the right direction. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-24-07, 06:50 PM	The Modual also introduces some new info on Karsus(Pawn of Shar to kill Mystrly(sp))!:P I just love how everything is all about Shar nowadays, don't you Lord Karsus?:rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-24-07, 06:53 PM	-WTF!? -Yet more newly introduced retconned information to be ignored...:rolleyes: -Karsus, like most Netherese, was akin to one of the Athar. Shar wouldn't have any power over him. Every single plot against Mystra--no matter who is the plotter or what the motivation must be--has to have Shar involved somehow. Actually no--Shar has to be behind it all! That way Shar gets credit for everything...after all, she *is* WotC's favorite deity. I expect all evil deities besides her are going to be killed off or demoted for 4th Edition. It's obvious that WotC thinks Shar is the only antagonist worth having. Shar, Shar, SHAR, SHAR! It's all about SHAR.
Asgetrion 11-24-07, 08:40 PM	Every single plot against Mystra--no matter who is the plotter or what the motivation must be--has to have Shar involved somehow. Actually no--Shar has to be behind it all! That way Shar gets credit for everything...after all, she *is* WotC's favorite deity. I expect all evil deities besides her are going to be killed off or demoted for 4th Edition. It's obvious that WotC thinks Shar is the only antagonist worth having. Shar, Shar, SHAR, SHAR! It's all about SHAR. WoTC Design Team: "Shar is *COOL*! Darkness *ROCKS*! *WE* are *COOL* and *ROCK*!" :rolleyes: I agree -- we've seen *far* too much Sharran plots lately. My group is kind of tired, too -- they're *expecting* Sharrans as the main antagonists in every adventure these days. Why do they (at WoTC) even bother writing an elaborate plot for a published module -- these days players just use their character's Gather Information to determine the nearest shrine or temple to Shar anyway. Where is the mystery in that? I just can't believe that they are honestly trying to suggest that Karsus would have been Shar's pawn... :mad:
Mula 11-24-07, 09:54 PM	double post
Mula 11-24-07, 09:54 PM	Every single plot against Mystra--no matter who is the plotter or what the motivation must be--has to have Shar involved somehow. Actually no--Shar has to be behind it all! That way Shar gets credit for everything...after all, she *is* WotC's favorite deity. I expect all evil deities besides her are going to be killed off or demoted for 4th Edition. It's obvious that WotC thinks Shar is the only antagonist worth having. Shar, Shar, SHAR, SHAR! It's all about SHAR. Feeling angry? It's a game.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-24-07, 10:34 PM	Feeling angry? Heck no. It's a personal in-joke to harp about Shar. And it's fun. And sort of true. Were you hoping I was angry?
18DELTA 11-24-07, 11:20 PM	-WTF!? -Yet more newly introduced retconned information to be ignored...:rolleyes: -Karsus, like most Netherese, was akin to one of the Athar. Shar wouldn't have any power over him. Yeah you are a tool for WotC nowadays!:eek: Shouldny you cast some kinda major spell to fix Rich & Co.?:cool:
Mula 11-24-07, 11:24 PM	Heck no. It's a personal in-joke to harp about Shar. And it's fun. And sort of true. Were you hoping I was angry? Erm, no... why would I be? I was baffled.
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 12:31 AM	I just love how everything is all about Shar nowadays, don't you Lord Karsus?:rolleyes: -Erm, no. I just can't believe that they are honestly trying to suggest that Karsus would have been Shar's pawn... -In the age of reroactive retcons, believe. -How was Karsus a pawn, back then, anyone who has the book? Yeah you are a tool for WotC nowadays!:eek: -Hey, if the price is right, Karsus is whatever you want him to be. I gotta feed all those little Karsites out there, and my disability check ran out a long time ago. Shouldny you cast some kinda major spell to fix Rich & Co.?:cool: -Dominate Person?
18DELTA 11-25-07, 12:34 AM	Nope! More Like sundering of the coast, would do just fine!:D
Mr_Miscellany 11-25-07, 03:51 AM	Is there any way to make this Cormyr/Shadowdale/Anauroch-adventure work if PCs are Zhentarim agents ? As to your question: Yes, it’s possible to work these adventures from a PCs-as-Zhents angle, but it’s also going to be tricky. For the adventure set in Cormyr, you can have the PCs be assigned to that area to look in on and foil any plots that are nearing fruition that involve Cyric and/or Shar. Shadowdale is more complicated, because the Zhentarim are in this case major bad guys in the adventure. So what you’d want to do as DM is have the PCs check in on (and discover) the plots of the Drow Matron Mothers, the shadovar and even the various Banite factions. From that point you can use the encounter location entries to full effect. I don't own the third book in the series, though based on the information in the introduction to the adventure (made available to the public here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20071105a)) it makes sense in my opinion for the Zhentarim to try and thwart the machinations of the Princes of Shade. If you plan to run these three adventures back to back to back, then you could possibly insert some sort of betrayal by the shadow simulacrum of Prince Yder Tanthul or his servant Irphiina against the greater Zhentarim effort, that puts convinces the Zhents that the clergy of Shar and the Princes of Shade are not to be trusted, so this puts the PCs on the path to the third adventure in Anourach. Best of luck to you if you choose this route. I recommend using the FR Sourcebook Champion of Ruin, if you don’t already own it, as it gives great advice on how to run an evil-centric campaign in FR.
Mr_Miscellany 11-25-07, 04:02 AM	I'm at least trying to help the guy. I sat down in my reading room, cracked the adventures open, skimmed the introductions and read through some of the sections, then sat down to post a response that might help SilentMan have a shot at a successful converstion.
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 04:19 AM	-I, like many others, began posting to discuss the exerpts and tidbits that Suin Bahhar provided in his original post. You know, the point of *discussion* boards.
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 04:37 AM	Ah yes, the unimaginative whining about supposed retcons, that's used to justify more cracks at the designers from the current roster of self-anointed intelligentsia the FR forums are cursed with. -You find me something in previously written Realmslore that Karsus was somehow being goaded into what he did by Shar, and how he was her pawn. If you can, I'll take back my statement about this being an added retcon. Now don’t get me wrong, there’s a wee bit of insight that’s been posted (I’d like to hear more from you about the Athar, for instance), but not much beyond that. So.....the Athar? -You're a Realmslore scholar- You should know about how most Netherese Arcanists felt about the divine. Sounds plenty like the philosophy of the Athar to me.
Mr_Miscellany 11-25-07, 04:52 AM	-You find me something in previously written Realmslore that Karsus was somehow being goaded into what he did by Shar, and how he was her pawn. If you can, I'll take back my statement about this being an added retcon. I don't have to. I can look at the big picture and say, "...yeah, it makes sense if Shar was involved. Sort of explains how Karsus could pull off his spell without Mystryl interfering. The 'explanations' that Mystryl was all about magic for magic's sake so she didn't interfere on her own never rang true to me." See, not that hard. Now, do you own the adventure? I'm assuming you do, or otherwise it'd be silly to take one statement and go off about it, wouldn't it? Unless the point is just to emote for the sake of emoting....your motives are more saintly than that, right? :P -You're a Realmslore scholar- You should know about how most Netherese Arcanists felt about the divine. Sounds plenty like the philosophy of the Athar to me. You honor me with the title, but it's not well placed, I assure you. So, humor me. Really, I'd like to know more.
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 06:17 AM	I don't have to. -Sure you do. I can look at the big picture and say, "...yeah, it makes sense if Shar was involved. Sort of explains how Karsus could pull off his spell without Mystryl interfering. The 'explanations' that Mystryl was all about magic for magic's sake so she didn't interfere on her own never rang true to me." See, not that hard. -What's to stop me from inferring that Liera was somehow involved, maintaining an illusion over Karsus, masking his research from Mystryl, for whatever her reasons. Or, how about Mask was lending his divine blessing to Karsus, as he was preparing to steal her portfolio from her- the ultimate theft. My theory is just as valid as your theory is as just as valid as Markus’ theory is just as valid as John’s. -The explanation that Mystryl simply never interfered, for whatever the reason, like it or not, is the official story. Going back and adding details to the story now that alter it is, by definition, retconning. Now, do you own the adventure? I'm assuming you do, or otherwise it'd be silly to take one statement and go off about it, wouldn't it? Unless the point is just to emote for the sake of emoting....your motives are more saintly than that, right? :P -Nope, I don't own the adventure. I don't own any adventures, actually. A fellow player/DM in my group bought The Bastion of Broken Souls and ran it a number of years ago (not to completion), so that's all the experience I have with pre-made adventures. -But, you know me. Unlike a lot of other people, I don't complain for complaining's sake. Mostly. In this case, I am complaining about the fact/idea that Karsus, a character that I like for what he represents(ed), as well as his sheer “cool factor”, was a pawn being controlled and manipulated by Shar. Not only is it very “not in-character” for Karsus to be controlled, but WotC is, I think, perpetuating another mistake- involving Shar in everything. A year or two ago, “everything” bad that was happening was somehow tied to Elven High Magic- the Year of the Rogue Dragon Trilogy, the Last Mythal Trilogy. Now, WotC is doing the same exact thing, only with Shar- everything that is going “wrong” in the world is somehow tied to Shar and her eternal war against Selűne and Mystra. You honor me with the title, but it's not well placed, I assure you. So, humor me. Really, I'd like to know more. -Oh, Mr. Misc, it's like pulling teeth with you! :P -Very well. As per Netheril: Empire of Magic, "Arcanists were renowned for their haughtiness concerning matters of magical healing through priestly magic. They believed that to accept a healing spell by a priest was to “surrender” their chance of ever achieving godhood themselves. They did consume heavily of potions of healing and similar curatives, believing them to be magically created concoctions that didn’t interfere with their ascension to godhood." -In other words, they believed the gods and goddesses to simply be mortals who have achieved and harnessed a new level of power (and, in some cases, they were right). This is very in line with the philosophies of the Believers of the Source, and the Athar, as the former group believed that all individuals had the potential to achieve divinity, and the latter group believed that the gods/goddesses were nothing more than frauds, who were not as omnipotent/omniscient as their followers would like everyone to believe.
Stigger 11-25-07, 11:46 AM	Hadn't really considered the Athar line of reasoning, but it does make a lot of sense. Can even see it perhaps in the Imaskari... which is even more interesting if you follow the idea that was suggested linking Aosker (or whatever his name was) with the Imaskari. Gotta go gather up books a bit later and start some cross referencing to see if there's something in there I can use for my campaign...
Butterface 11-25-07, 12:14 PM	Hey, Im going to start "Cormyr the Tearing of the Weave" soon, and one of my players wants to be a catfolk ninja. Are there any problems with that (i don't have the book yet)? Funny, I had a player wanting to do the same thing, until I talked him out of it. :) I wouldn't have barred it had he really wanted to, but dang, that's a dumb character concept for the Realms.
Karsus_Pawn_of_Shar 11-25-07, 01:21 PM	Well LK, You've made many valid points that show "we" should not be turned into a pawn of Shar in fourth edition. Your argument is logical, reasonable, and well thought out. The problem is 4E has no logic or reason. It's not well thought out. That makes your arguments powerless in the face of wanton WotC retconning. The very lack of internal logic that you have complained about in 4E has retroactively given birth to me, Karsus Pawn of Shar, your long lost third aspect! Fear Me...As a servant of Shar my power can only grow!!!:evillaugh
Rauric 11-25-07, 04:11 PM	I like it when the loremasters here help others with some bits of info. I don't like it when they say the same negative stuff over and over. This is not meant to gain me snarky comments from folks, just a feeling I get when I read these boards. I always thought Karsus was a pawn of Shar. Thinking back to his "big spell", to the Karse stone having something to do with the Shadow Weave. I just always figured that was part of the story. He doesn't have to worship Shar to be her pawn.
Zsych 11-25-07, 04:13 PM	I've long thought that Karsus periodic insanity seemed like shadow-weave malfunction and otherwise something related to Shar. Still... as far as beating Mystryl is concerned, we have seen spells like those of the Imaskari, and someone who understood gods well enough to cast a spell to take their power should have had a fair chance of designing a spell to hide himself from their sight... heading off of Toril to do research would probably also be beneficial(like what the Imaskari did when researching on clerics.. put them in other planes which gods would have no direct awareness in). @Rauric: There's a question as to whether Shar can directly effect someone who doesn't believe in her or doesn't believe in her godhood at least. Still... I suppose Shar could have used other means to effect Karsus.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-25-07, 05:53 PM	Erm, no... why would I be? I was baffled. To answer your question: Your response to me came off as a bit cheeky. As in, "Hah, look at these silly, foaming-at-the-mouth complainers, who can take them seriously?" It's hard for me to get angry at a phenomenon (specifically, Shar always seeming to one-up everyone else) that I first noticed quite a while ago.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-25-07, 06:01 PM	What have you (and Rhinona, and Asgetrion, etc...) done to help? Hells, what are you guys doing that's of any real use to anyone, in this thread? : Rhinona? Who is that? But since I take it you are refering to me... For my part: I'm not here just to be "useful" to other people. That may be your MO, but it's not mine. I think I've helped enough people in the long run that I can make "useless" comments every now and then. For the record, so has Asgetrion.
ORC_Nashira 11-25-07, 06:14 PM	Can we settle down and get back on subject or will I have to close this thread?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-25-07, 06:20 PM	And none of us are game designers, so the level of validity is always just that -one step below what gets printed in an official book. It's a bit strange hearing that from you. Seriously. Aren't you the one always preaching against being a canon-shark or something to that effect?
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 07:49 PM	Hadn't really considered the Athar line of reasoning, but it does make a lot of sense...Gotta go gather up books a bit later and start some cross referencing to see if there's something in there I can use for my campaign... -The Netherese once tried to conquer the Outlands via a "Cat's Paw Portal", or something to that effect. I don't have my books on me, so sorry I can't confirm the name. Anyway, though the Netherese were obviously unsuccessful, I'm sure that the various Factions in Sigil saw what the Netherese were doing. As the Athar, and the Believers of the Source were both Factions at the time, some kind of interaction might have happened. The very lack of internal logic that you have complained about in 4E has retroactively given birth to me, Karsus Pawn of Shar, your long lost third aspect! -KtM and I already have a Third Aspect, who's alive and kickin' in some Beholder Hive. But, now, apparently, we have a fourth aspect. Imagine that- a tripartite being having a fourth aspect. Well, I guess my/our awesomness is so great, it can't be contained in just three aspects. Thinking back to his "big spell", to the Karse stone having something to do with the Shadow Weave. -The Karse Stone is not related in any way to the Shadow Weave. Though, if recent lore has changed this, could someone inform me? Anyway, the only connections between the Karse Stone and the Shadow Weave is that Shar stole the stone in The Return of the Archwizards trilogy. For what purpose still remains a mystery. I've long thought that Karsus periodic insanity seemed like shadow-weave malfunction and otherwise something related to Shar. -I does sound very much like what Shar did to Hallaster, yes.
Rauric 11-25-07, 07:49 PM	Hey let's listen to the Wizo. It's rude to get other peoples threads locked folks. ;) I actually realized I didn't want to purchase anymore FR adventures (non-Dungeon ones anyway) after I bought Cormyr. Then when I heard about 4E I definitely wasn't going to purchase anymore 3.5 modules unless they were Red Hand quality.
Rauric 11-25-07, 07:53 PM	I thought the reason the Shades and Shar wanted the Karse stone was because it had something to do with the Shadow Weave. I am not sure if it stated that, I just always assumed that. I think it might have said somethingto that effect in one of Kemps novels though. Not sure.:confused:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-25-07, 07:56 PM	I've read both of the released novels in Paul Kemp's yet-to-be-completed Twilight War trilogy, and I can't recall the Karse stone factoring into either novel. Of course, it if was just a single line, I'm unlikely to remember it.
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 08:10 PM	I thought the reason the Shades and Shar wanted the Karse stone was because it had something to do with the Shadow Weave. I am not sure if it stated that, I just always assumed that. I think it might have said somethingto that effect in one of Kemps novels though. Not sure.:confused: -In the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, by Troy Denning, Melagaunt (Sp?) tells Galaeron that the casting of Karsus' Avatar, and the subsequent destruction of Mystryl and rebirth of Mystra was what created the Shadow Weave, and the Weave as we know it today. -Of course, however, *we* know that Melagaunt (Sp?) was either wrong, or lying to Galaeron, for whatever reason, as the Shadow Weave existed before the death of Mystryl. The two (SW and the Karse Stone) aren't related. Of course, as of now, anyway.
Aerostoth 01-27-08, 08:51 PM	[QUOTE=Mr_Miscellany;14419892]As to your question: Yes, it’s possible to work these adventures from a PCs-as-Zhents angle, but it’s also going to be tricky. QUOTE] Is it worth making them Zhent agents?
MarkusTay63 01-29-08, 04:58 PM	The Karse stone being important to Shar's plans? Of course... that makes perfect sense. Just like True name magic, or any other type of magic that require the use of an item previously 'linked' to the target, the Karse stone (as Karsus) once contained the Weave and Mystra's power itself, so, for any effect that Shar wanted to 'target' against Mystra, the stone would have been a very handy thing to have in order to overcome some of Mystra's defenses (like her previously established prescience). I don't see how it has anything to do with the Shadow Weave though - thats something new they just 'tacked on' for the super-modules and the lead-up to 4e. Besides, anyone with any brains can clearly see it was the Arcane (D20 Mercane) that instigated that tragic series of events, by providing Karsus with the one crucial piece of the formula that he was missing. :cool: ...the current roster of self-anointed intelligentsia the FR forums are cursed with.No one is forced to stay here against their will, or to read posts by people they don't like... :rolleyes: When valid non-baiting questions are asked, many of us that you think the boards are cursed with are quick to respond with helpful answers. And as far as our opinions of the current 'creative' direction of FR goes - what can I say? Some of us have gotten used to Filet Mignon, while others are willing to settle for McDonalds. ;)
canadianguy 01-30-08, 01:29 PM	Here I go aging myself. This whole Shar wants to destroy everything angle seems so familiar and then it struck me. Go back to Gygax and the Gord of Greyhawk series with Therizdin (sp?). I am going go out and make a huge speculative bet here. Yes SHar/Cyric Kill Mystra manage all the things they wish to do then Mask maybe mimicking Gord is able to undo it all trapping Shar/cyric and coming out on top. Possible the prophecy concerning Oghma taking control of magic to come true. Or maybe it could be a PC from one of the latest novel series. I have stopped reading many of the novels so I am unsure as who might be a good option. If anyone is as old as I am and remembers that series I would love to know if they see the similarities as well.
canadianguy 02-01-08, 08:39 PM	Am I that old?
selunatic2397 02-01-08, 10:20 PM	If you are that old then so am I canadianguy, I remember that series well and it does sound eerily familiar to the current plot. By the way...you are my favorite actor on the X-Play Show! :D
msatran 02-02-08, 04:29 AM	Hey, yeah! You know, it does. And after that, Greyhawk pretty much died for a long, long time.
canadianguy 02-02-08, 09:08 AM	(39) I just skimmed through the books th eother day and it is crazy similar. You think they would learn. Oh well. I will just keep my realms the way they are.
Aerostoth 02-02-08, 01:20 PM	Are the PC expected to live after fighting Hadrahunde? I mean he's a CR 23 and they're supposed to be level 13!
drizzt420 02-05-08, 01:24 PM	I was wondering about the Hadrhune encounter as well. Also, how do you guys think a Shadow Weave adept would factor into this adventure. One of my PC's uses the Shadow Weave and may possibly be involved in this adventure. Would it create any potential conflicts as he would be going against Shar's will - she could cut him off from the Shadow Weave in areas of the game where they PC's are traveling through dead magic zones. Good idea or bad idea?
Suin Bahhar 02-05-08, 02:55 PM	Good idea. The Shadow Weave casters still adhereing to Shars dogma will also be a permanent added enemy to the powerless PC if he opposes Shar's plot. Shar doesn't like moles I can tell ye...
Jiggawha 02-06-08, 02:13 PM	the best idea would be not to play that horrible adventure and make your own
msatran 02-07-08, 12:50 PM	I was wondering about the Hadrhune encounter as well. Also, how do you guys think a Shadow Weave adept would factor into this adventure. One of my PC's uses the Shadow Weave and may possibly be involved in this adventure. Would it create any potential conflicts as he would be going against Shar's will - she could cut him off from the Shadow Weave in areas of the game where they PC's are traveling through dead magic zones. Good idea or bad idea? The Hadrhune encounter is effectively meaningless unless the PC's place him in Temporal Stasis or the like. There's really no way to prevent the Shades from Ressurrecting him. Plus, the other problem with the encounter is really this. Sudden Maximize + Horrid Wilting. It's really easy for PC's of that level to have, and suddenly, Hahdrhune falls over dead from 155 points of damage with an Empowerment Rod, not that unreasonable for characters of that level to acquire. Quickened Lower Resistance at that level is a given, as is True Seeing. At that point, everything is mopup. If Hadhrhune falls, the PC's have basically won, if the Phaerimm are still living, they'll bail on him in a few short seconds. How in god's name do you give an NPC 77 hit points to fight 4 17th level characters? This encounter was poorly designed to begin with. A single capable Fighter Archer with the Spellcasting Harrier feat tree will totally wreck this encounter.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-07-08, 01:51 PM	The Hadrhune encounter is effectively meaningless unless the PC's place him in Temporal Stasis or the like. There's really no way to prevent the Shades from Ressurrecting him. Chop him into hamburger meat, then trick the Shades into eating him?:)
msatran 02-07-08, 04:44 PM	True Ressurrection needs no body, and they have at least one Cleric 20. :) So the answer is, he could be submolecular particles and still come back to life. And the PC's would have his totally useless shadow weave magic items. Gee. Thanks, Mr. DM. :)
MarkusTay63 02-08-08, 01:26 AM	Chop him into hamburger meat, then trick the Shades into eating him?:)I suppose you could always ressurect their 'poop'. :rolleyes: Now THAT would TRULY be some Shadowcr@p.... :P
Aerostoth 02-08-08, 05:23 PM	I still have to get my PCs to make characters for this trilogy: What should they be?
buzzard 02-08-08, 05:25 PM	I still have to get my PCs to make characters for this trilogy: What should they be? Anything that doesn't rely on the Weave/Shadow Weave.
MarkusTay63 02-08-08, 05:36 PM	So, in 3e, that means nobody, huh? ;)
Aerostoth 02-08-08, 05:45 PM	Anything that doesn't rely on the Weave/Shadow Weave. got it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-10-08, 06:23 PM	True Ressurrection needs no body, and they have at least one Cleric 20. :) So the answer is, he could be submolecular particles and still come back to life. And the PC's would have his totally useless shadow weave magic items. Gee. Thanks, Mr. DM. :) But at least you'll have tricked the shades into EATING one of their comrades. :rofl: *LOL* At Markus.