Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Satori 11-21-07, 04:47 PM	Since this book/series is relatively new, I'm going to keep everything in an SBLOCK so as to not spoil anyone else's enjoyment of the series. Personally, I enjoy Lisa Smedman's style of writing. She adds a lot of personality to otherwise bland characters, and I consider her one of the more talented current WotC authors. Now, about her "Lady Penitent" series... Is anyone else a little frustrated that Elistraee is able to waltz in and single handedly (through her machinations, of course) destroy/subvert three dark elven deities in only two novels? 1. Selvetarm -This poor demi-god received little to no attention from the mainstream Dark Elven literature. As such, I used him frequently in my games, and I enjoyed the idea of an honor bound warrior god defending an insane, radically chaotic Demon Queen. I even had entire squadrons of male-only Selvetarm Divine Champions, Monks, and Clerics as Law Keepers within the more lenient Dark Elven cities. *Sniff* Now he's gone. 2. Vhaeraun -Alright, now THIS pisses me off. With the Drow fanboy-ism flying out of control with Drizzt, and Elistraee as the flagship excuse to play angsty good-aligned Drow, Vhaeraun was the ONE middle ground between the two extremes. He gave an alternative to the boringly evil Lloth worshippers and the infuriatingly upbeat Elistraee crew. He was complex, opportunistic, and evil...even though he genuinely cared for his flock. He also provided a strong male counterpart to the staid matriarchy. Gone. Poof. Now he's just another facet of the frolicking faerie goddess...as if the Drow needed yet another female deity. 3. Kiriansalee -This is the first book where I even heard of her, so I suppose it isn't a huge issue that she's gone. However, I did enjoy the idea of another deity siphoning followers away from Lloth. The undead angle of Kiriansalee was also mildly entertaining, and provided another form of flavor and style to the monotonous arachnid motif we know all too well. Gone. Poof. --- I was beginning to enjoy the various facets of dark elven religion, having grown tired of 1st and 2nd Edition's black and white stance on "Lloth or Nothing". NPCs and the rare PC now, in 3.5 ED, had the option of worshiping a variety of dark elven deities, and Dark Elven culture was no longer locked into the spider/web/chaotic flavor we all are bored with by now. Dark Elves finally became *gasp* a multi-faceted, dynamic species. Die hard Gygaxian fans may resent the increasing attention and complexity this garnered towards what originally started as a single-dimension "Bad Guy Race"...but Dark Elves have a following...and reducing the race to their roots of "Lloth-Centric Spider Kissers" or "Frolicking Black Skinned Pansies" does nothing to expand the concept. --- With this in mind, I'm curious as to what Lisa Smedman has in store for our hated "Ebony Emo Elves", and I'll reserve my final judgment until the series is over. --- What are your takes so far on the series and the ramifications of the events therein?
Stigger 11-21-07, 05:50 PM	I tend to view it as something to be ignored in my campaigns...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-21-07, 06:23 PM	I tend to view it as something to be ignored in my campaigns... Seconded. Although, who says it was Eilistraee who killed all three deities? It only seems that way on the surface. As for good-aligned dark elves...well, I love my LG female drow monk of Eilistraee.:P And no, I don't consider myself an over-the-top drow fangirl either.
Zanan 11-22-07, 04:13 AM	I thought this one has already been done to undeath already :D But to get more impressions, try this link ... http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9840
Pyrogen 11-22-07, 06:11 AM	Most activities in recent novels about the drow don't make sense but it should be remembered there is still one more left in the series still to be published and that may restore the status quo. If not, just do your own take on who actually dies - there are several ways of viewing it - or as stated above, simply ignore it altogether.
Lord Karsus 11-22-07, 10:59 AM	Now, about her "Lady Penitent" series...Is anyone else a little frustrated... -No, you're not alone.
Satori 11-22-07, 11:00 AM	I thought this one has already been done to undeath already :D But to get more impressions, try this link ... http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9840 I did a search, but didn't find any previous threads on this topic on this forum. If you'd be so kind to point me in the right direction, I'd be happy to move my discussion over there :)
Phelf_Der_Zemit 11-22-07, 12:26 PM	ya, really she only the Big E only killed V, Sele, and Kira were killed by mortals. Which now that I think about it, shouldnt there be some sort of ramafacations on these mortals for killing Deities... but alas I digress, I still can't wait for the next book.
Zireael 11-26-07, 02:37 AM	I hope the last book "The Ascendancy of the Last" won't leave only one drow god(dess).
Zanan 11-26-07, 05:03 AM	IMHO the best thing would be if Lolth does her tricks on Ghaunadaur, who then retreats as per TGHotR, while the game of sava is brought to an end with the Spellplague. Only one drow deity would be quite strange, especially if you have other races featuring dozens of deities. So keeping them two would be a start, but I'd rather have a generally more open minded belief system throughout the Realms (Roman-style-wise) and drow pantheon akin to that of Green Ronin's, where the Spider Queen has "eight legs" (i.e. lesser gods serving her directly) and a couple or so of renegades. That would be a decent variant too. So Wizards, please give us Zinzerena, "Eclavdra", Laveth and some other "semi-divine heroines and avatars" please.
Suin Bahhar 11-26-07, 02:27 PM	Seconded.
Satori 11-26-07, 06:02 PM	Thirdedededed...eded. In fact, I think Green Ronin's "Plot and Poison" had the best Dark Elven pantheon I've seen. It really added a great deal of depth to the otherwise featureless dark elven deities.
AskaniPsion 11-27-07, 07:12 AM	IMHO the best thing would be if Lolth does her tricks on Ghaunadaur, who then retreats as per TGHotR, while the game of sava is brought to an end with the Spellplague. Only one drow deity would be quite strange, especially if you have other races featuring dozens of deities. So keeping them two would be a start, but I'd rather have a generally more open minded belief system throughout the Realms (Roman-style-wise) and drow pantheon akin to that of Green Ronin's, where the Spider Queen has "eight legs" (i.e. lesser gods serving her directly) and a couple or so of renegades. That would be a decent variant too. So Wizards, please give us Zinzerena, "Eclavdra", Laveth and some other "semi-divine heroines and avatars" please. I really liked how "Plot & Poison" handled the Spider Queen and her "Eight Legs". I also liked that they included Destiny and Psionics underneath her portfolio. It would be cool if they gave Psionics to Lolth in FR too though I doubt it. It would be awesome if she was the one who killed Deep Duerra LOL
Lord Karsus 11-27-07, 07:23 AM	-Why did Lolth have Psionics as one of her portfolios?
Zanan 11-27-07, 12:31 PM	-Why did Lolth have Psionics as one of her portfolios? Because P&P was written diametrically opposed to anything Drizzt'ish and good-drowish and one of the more nasty drow females ever gracing the City of Spiders was, of course, Kyorl Odran, of House Oblodra. So having the Spider Queen as a patron of psionics (she wouldn't let something that powerful slip to any other of her subordinates) was quite logical. PS: Do note that we speak of "The Spider Queen" of P&P, which is not a 100% carbon copy of D&D's Lolth.
Satori 11-27-07, 05:36 PM	Also, Plot and Poison creates a "concept" for the Drow that is self-sustaining in and out of any setting. In fact, you could create an entire campaign within the framework provided by Plot and Poison, and every facet of Drow character development is provided. Every class has a patron, place, and role within P&P Drow society...and if Dark Elven Barbarians have a role, then surely psionics aren't a stretch in the least.
AskaniPsion 11-27-07, 06:32 PM	Because P&P was written diametrically opposed to anything Drizzt'ish and good-drowish and one of the more nasty drow females ever gracing the City of Spiders was, of course, Kyorl Odran, of House Oblodra. So having the Spider Queen as a patron of psionics (she wouldn't let something that powerful slip to any other of her subordinates) was quite logical. PS: Do note that we speak of "The Spider Queen" of P&P, which is not a 100% carbon copy of D&D's Lolth. I really LOVED the Oblodra family - too bad the House got destroyed. It makes sense for Lolth to have psionics - there is a much greater chance of psionic latent drow - Psionics is everywhere in the underdark and isn't no way as rare as on the surface. It makes for her to have Destiny since she was the elven Goddess of Destiny before the "Fall". I could also see her as the Goddess of Assassins now. Kimmuriel is my all time favorite male character in FR books - he is an awesome Psion. Lolth even had psionic powers in 1st edition :D
Lord Karsus 11-27-07, 06:33 PM	Because P&P was written diametrically opposed to anything Drizzt'ish and good-drowish and one of the more nasty drow females ever gracing the City of Spiders was, of course, Kyorl Odran, of House Oblodra. So having the Spider Queen as a patron of psionics (she wouldn't let something that powerful slip to any other of her subordinates) was quite logical. PS: Do note that we speak of "The Spider Queen" of P&P, which is not a 100% carbon copy of D&D's Lolth. -But, House Oblodra was an oddity...If a group of powerful Tormites became Elemental Savants emphasizing on earth, it would then be convievable, going by this logic, that Torm could also have the Earth portfolio.
Zanan 11-28-07, 04:49 AM	Maybe I was not distinctive enough here. The FR Lolth does not have psionics in her portfolio, the Spider Queen of P&P has. I just took House Oblodra as the example why Green Ronin might have included psionics in their Spider Queen's portfolios. A great semi-magical power no-one but she should have in their setting ... when it comes to drow, of course. Yes, we only know of House Oblodra and their dealings with psionics was obviously an oddity ... in that city. We have no clue about other drow psionics in other houses though ... and no, I don't want to debate on hypothesis' hereabouts again. The point is that in the P&P world, there might be thousands of psionic drow running about and their patroness is the Spider Queen.
Lord Karsus 11-28-07, 04:17 PM	Maybe I was not distinctive enough here. The FR Lolth does not have psionics in her portfolio, the Spider Queen of P&P has. I just took House Oblodra as the example why Green Ronin might have included psionics in their Spider Queen's portfolios. A great semi-magical power no-one but she should have in their setting ... when it comes to drow, of course. The point is that in the P&P world, there might be thousands of psionic drow running about and their patroness is the Spider Queen -Does there exist some sort of reason why the P&P Lolth has Psionics as a Portfolio, then? I know nothing of the Green Ronin, P&P world. The point is, either way, there should at least be a valid reason why the P&P Lolth has the portfolio in the first place. Yes, we only know of House Oblodra and their dealings with psionics was obviously an oddity ... in that city. We have no clue about other drow psionics in other houses though ... and no, I don't want to debate on hypothesis' hereabouts again. -There isn't much, in terms of Drow and Psionics. Underdark, which was published after the Psionic class was introduced into 3e, doesn't mention many Drow Psionicists, or Drow Psionic organizations.
AskaniPsion 11-28-07, 05:55 PM	-Does there exist some sort of reason why the P&P Lolth has Psionics as a Portfolio, then? I know nothing of the Green Ronin, P&P world. The point is, either way, there should at least be a valid reason why the P&P Lolth has the portfolio in the first place. -There isn't much, in terms of Drow and Psionics. Underdark, which was published after the Psionic class was introduced into 3e, doesn't mention many Drow Psionicists, or Drow Psionic organizations. Because Psions are not as rare in the P&P book as they are in the Realms - the Spider Queen has psychic warriors and psions serving her. So she has psions & both clerics worshipping her. They don't explain EXACTLY how many psionic drow there are but they are common according to this book hence why she got Psionic Portfolio. You can always contact Green Ronin and ask the writer who did the book for his reasons. <shrug> I think it fits her domain according to what is in the book. So because a book doesn't actively mention it, it doesn't exist? Psionics will NEVER get the exposure that clerical or arcane magic will get so of course they are not going to get much space in a book like "The Underdark". There was a whole House filled with Psions in Menzo. There is even a drow soulknife NPC in "Drow of The Underdark". Kimmuriel, a very powerful drow psion, was in multiple Salvatore novels. Compare to the number of other psionic characters in Realms books and it looks like Psionics happens more frequently in Drow then alot of other humanoid races.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 11-28-07, 07:49 PM	And if you remeber, Obolarde only gave token homage to the Spider Queen. They felt Psionic was a blessing from their inner beings, not thinks to the spider queen.
OrderofUhlrik 11-28-07, 08:01 PM	I know I'm derailing the derailing by asking this question, but... Did anyone else get the impression that Vhaeraun and Ellistraee came to some sort of agreement, or Vhaeraun took a dive on purpose in order for Ellistraee to be able to take down Lloth? I know drow-deities working as a team is wayyy out of the ordinary, especially this brother-sister duo. But, we see that Vhaeraun was inclined to have his priests cast high-magic, which as the books impled requires a level of trust and "bonding". So perhaps Vhaeraun embraced this in the extreme in order to give Ellistraee the tools needed to take down Lloth in exchange for his power/worshippers to be returned upon her destruction or some other thing. Because I don't see the independant Vhaeraun making a noble sacrifice, but possibly a calculated one. I don't know, that was just my thoughts on that matter.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-28-07, 08:18 PM	I know I'm derailing the derailing by asking this question, but... Did anyone else get the impression that Vhaeraun and Ellistraee came to some sort of agreement, or Vhaeraun took a dive on purpose in order for Ellistraee to be able to take down Lloth? That's a possiblity many have considered.:)
Phelf_Der_Zemit 11-28-07, 08:27 PM	Man, I miss The Big V. He was the best rogue god with good domains. Now all I have is mask. And he doesnt have the Travel domain. the best domain ever. *pout*
Lord Karsus 11-29-07, 12:41 AM	I think it fits her domain according to what is in the book. -Well, as long as it makes sense in that world. So because a book doesn't actively mention it, it doesn't exist? Psionics will NEVER get the exposure that clerical or arcane magic will get so of course they are not going to get much space in a book like "The Underdark". There was a whole House filled with Psions in Menzo. There is even a drow soulknife NPC in "Drow of The Underdark". Kimmuriel, a very powerful drow psion, was in multiple Salvatore novels. Compare to the number of other psionic characters in Realms books and it looks like Psionics happens more frequently in Drow then alot of other humanoid races. -Well, plainly, yes. If something isn't mentioned, it shouldn't be assumed to exist in any large quantity. Does Elminster like...bagels? Sure, why not? Who doesn't? No sourcebook or novel that I can think of says that Elminster enjoys eating bagels everyday. Therefore, we should't assume that Lheao makes Elminster bagels everyday. Every once and a while? Sure. But, every day? Nah. -I didn't say that Drow Psionicists don't exist, or that Drow psionic organizations don't exist. I simply said, "There isn't much", in terms of Drow Psionicists or organizations, in response to Zanan's point that "We have no clue about other drow psionics in other houses though." -Using the example above, are there Drow Psionists, and Psionic organizations? Yes. Is there much information on them? No. Should we assume that there are a lot of Drow Psionicists/Drow Psionic orgnizations? No. A few? Sure. -As an Askani, this phrase should have some meaning. "What is, is." In this case, whatever is presented in novels/sourcebooks, is. :) Did anyone else get the impression that Vhaeraun and Ellistraee came to some sort of agreement, or Vhaeraun took a dive on purpose in order for Ellistraee to be able to take down Lloth? I know drow-deities working as a team is wayyy out of the ordinary, especially this brother-sister duo. But, we see that Vhaeraun was inclined to have his priests cast high-magic, which as the books impled requires a level of trust and "bonding". So perhaps Vhaeraun embraced this in the extreme in order to give Ellistraee the tools needed to take down Lloth in exchange for his power/worshippers to be returned upon her destruction or some other thing. Because I don't see the independant Vhaeraun making a noble sacrifice, but possibly a calculated one. -Many of us have considered a situation like this, going by the seemingly relative ease that Eilistraee defended herself against his sneak attack, and going by what "went down" during the Sava game.
Pyrogen 11-29-07, 06:16 AM	How about part of the deal being that he gets a realm back in Arvandor, so whether the Spider Queen is destroyed or not he doesn't have to hang out on the Demonweb (though presumably if she died so would the Demonweb). You see before the Great Tree was introduced Vhaeraun never lived in the Abyss either on the 66th level or anywhere else. Like Eilistraee he had set himself up somewhere completely different from both Lolth and Corellon. Then in the Player's Guide to Faerun, we have the Great Tree and suddenly Vhaeraun (and his followers) are forced to cohabit with Lolth, as a sort of servitor god who plots in secret (or not so secret according to the book) against her. Now given it was always stated that he hated Lolth even more than he hated Corellon, I cannot see why he would willingly go and live in the same place as her. So on the basis that Ao forced the issue, and Eilistraee had apparently been welcomed back into Arvandor, might it not be conceivable that Vhaeraun might have come up with a plan to get him a realm there too. One thing that has really bugged me since I read the Player's Guide is that the petitioners on the Demonweb are said to slavishly serve Lolth just as they did in life - but the whole point of followers of Vhaeraun is that they have rejected Lolth and even if evil (and they can be neutral) are distinctly different in the way they approach things, particularly those who live on the surface. Take the Auskovyn, who actually prefer living as woodland nomads, so are getting back to the elven roots so to speak, yet apparently on dying get dumped back in the hell hole of the Demonweb. Unfortunately I don't imagine anything is going to happen to change this since if everything I have read about 4th edition is true, we are going to have main deities and servitor deities under them, and on the basis that Lolth makes it through, if Vhaeraun is retained, he is just going to be Lolth's lackey, which would not be the Vhaeraun that I follow. So may be he got a whiff of this and thought "what the hell" I've got nothing to lose.
AskaniPsion 11-29-07, 06:56 AM	- -As an Askani, this phrase should have some meaning. "What is, is." In this case, whatever is presented in novels/sourcebooks, is. :) hehe yeah :D
Zireael 11-29-07, 07:50 AM	In the FRCS, the whole drow pantheon except Eili was in Demonweb, so you can't say it was only PGtF. And it made sense! :D Except Eili they are(were) all evil.
AskaniPsion 11-29-07, 01:29 PM	In the FRCS, the whole drow pantheon except Eili was in Demonweb, so you can't say it was only PGtF. And it made sense! :D Except Eili they are(were) all evil. I am thinking Eli is going to have an alignment change from Good to Neutral due to her absorbing her brother's portfolio.
Lord Karsus 11-29-07, 07:42 PM	In the FRCS, the whole drow pantheon except Eili was in Demonweb, so you can't say it was only PGtF. And it made sense! :D Except Eili they are(were) all evil. -Eilistraee had/has a layer in the Demonweb Pits, and on Arvandor. Ghaunadaur had/has a layer in the Demonweb Pits and on the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze, and Kiaransalee had/has a realm on Thanatos (a layer of the Abyss), but she moved that into the Demonweb Pits.
Zanan 11-30-07, 10:02 AM	-Does there exist some sort of reason why the P&P Lolth has Psionics as a Portfolio, then? I know nothing of the Green Ronin, P&P world. Me neither. And it doesn't bother me either, I never actually checked whether they have a game world as such. -There isn't much, in terms of Drow and Psionics. Underdark, which was published after the Psionic class was introduced into 3e, doesn't mention many Drow Psionicists, or Drow Psionic organizations. Fair enough, but honestly speaking, Planescape races aside, not a single major (playable) race of Faerūn stood out in history to validate a deity carrying the portfolio either. In general, psionics usually are standouts or outcasts in-setting as much as in-novel when it comes to the Realms. On "Vhaeraun deals with Eilistraee" Against the notion speaks a simple description in LP II, where Lolth herself opens a scrying thingy and shows the audience the hacked and slashed bits and pieces of Vhaeraun floating in the Astral. Obviously, people may happen by claiming that this can be a ruse and all, but folks, we speak of Lolth here, not Torm, Tyr or some other half-brain. That said, the novel series will surely come up with on or two (dozen) surprising things.
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 11:18 PM	Fair enough, but honestly speaking, Planescape races aside, not a single major (playable) race of Faerūn stood out in history to validate a deity carrying the portfolio either. In general, psionics usually are standouts or outcasts in-setting as much as in-novel when it comes to the Realms. -There's the Duergar. -But, that's why theres...three deities that have control of the Psionics portfolio: Ilsensine, Deep Duerra, and...the one from Jhaamdath. What's his name...Auppenser (Sp?)
sfdragon 12-01-07, 02:57 AM	all said and done. with the return of that one city, the eilistraee drow could have their part of the curse ended. or AO could say game over and they both Eilistraee and lolth live. or they could kill of each other. no matter at the moment, but do you want to know what it really means to be drow? it doesnt me that you have to be good or evil, it only means you have to fight dirty. at least thats my interpetation
Selvarin 12-01-07, 04:13 AM	Being drow is about not being a mirror-image of a surface elf...in some ways, they act more like true fey than those on the surface do. Other than the spiteful child-beating matrons, of course.
Zanan 12-01-07, 04:15 AM	-There's the Duergar. -But, that's why theres...three deities that have control of the Psionics portfolio: Ilsensine, Deep Duerra, and...the one from Jhaamdath. What's his name...Auppenser (Sp?) You see, I did specifically write and underline again the following: Fair enough, but honestly speaking, Planescape races aside, not a single major (playable) race of Faerūn stood out in history to validate a deity carrying the portfolio either. In general, psionics usually are standouts or outcasts in-setting as much as in-novel when it comes to the Realms. I obviously know about the duergar and the odd god (Deep Duerra & Ilsensine) or even the Jhaamdath Psiocracy, but these are either hardly player races, feature much in lore or novel, or are simply regional things of the past. Look about the Realms now and you really have to stretch and dig deep to find even the odd psionic character*. That was my point here. ;) The whole portfolio issue is somewhat ambiguous anyway, isn't it? I doubt that there actually is a "all-round" psionic patron, like Mystra is for Magic. Nor need there be. IMHO, any decent racial deity who is a patron/-ness of a race should cater to all things "needed" by that race, while portfolios mark "special interests". *And yes, I know about the psionic chap in the Erevis Cale novels too, that devilish bloodline tiefling ranger/psion/soulknife man. One of two novel characters (Kimmuriel Oblodra) you will find amongst millions of Realmsfolk. I'm not saying that they are not there. Just that psionic folk hardly feature within Realmspace at all. That risen city ... as well as born-again Myth Drannor ... you really wonder what will happen to such magical-ladden places in 1385, don't you?
Lord Karsus 12-01-07, 04:28 AM	You see, I did specifically write and... -Duergar are a playable race.
Bryaxis 12-01-07, 07:00 AM	I really hope that Vhaeraun doesn't stay dead. He was a great character option for players making evil renegade male drow. I don't think I'd have as much fun playing a militant masculist if he's forced to be part of an amalgamated church whose worshipers sing and dance in the nude to honor a female deities. Well, at least not at the start of a campaign.
Lord Karsus 12-01-07, 11:45 AM	I really hope that Vhaeraun doesn't stay dead. He was a great character option for players making evil renegade male drow. -With the loss of both him and Selvetarm, there aren't that many other alternatives to choose from, now.
AskaniPsion 12-01-07, 01:57 PM	-With the loss of both him and Selvetarm, there aren't that many other alternatives to choose from, now. You can always go for Bane or run-away Mask. :rolleyes:
SmartPaladin 12-01-07, 02:02 PM	You can always go for Bane or run-away Mask. :rolleyes: Or Hoar! :P I seem to recall saying this else were...:plotting:
Selvarin 12-01-07, 03:01 PM	Hoar, if not dead, will be at best Shar's bitter little assassin-servitor. Last I saw, they indicated his realm was practically deserted for lack of worshippers. As for Vhaeraun, the GHotR said he was killed. They set their plans in motion and published it in the last two pages. They aren't bringing anyone back whom they've declared to be dead. The last thing to see is whether: A) Eilistraee is slain, her 'niche' archetype taken over/represented by another deity (likely a human one, such as Meilikki); or B) Eilistraee survives but either remains a Lesser Power or is demoted to a Demipower (as the Intermediate deific category is gone now). From what I see she's being changed into a more fey, CN deity. Vhaeraun has no place, although I wouldn't have minded if a vestige of the little bugger merged with Mask. Vhaeraun's a little more interesting than Mask, although the Twilight War series has me liking him a bit more than I used to.
SmartPaladin 12-01-07, 04:27 PM	Hoar, if not dead, will be at best Shar's bitter little assassin-servitor. Last I saw, they indicated his realm was practically deserted for lack of worshippers. True... Though I hope they don't do it that way. With him under Shar's thumb he'd become more blind veangece then poetic justice. :(
Selvarin 12-01-07, 05:03 PM	Another possibility is that Shar turns his heart into blind vengeance. Still angered at Anhur, he goes out in a blaze of glory trying to gain what he felt to be rightly his. Hoar is killed by Anhur, and Shar picks up a few pieces for herself.
SmartPaladin 12-01-07, 05:08 PM	Another possibility is that Shar turns his heart into blind vengeance. Still angered at Anhur, he goes out in a blaze of glory trying to gain what he felt to be rightly his. Hoar is killed by Anhur, and Shar picks up a few pieces for herself. I hate you. After reading that, I got a nasty feeling that may end up happening. :( Oh well... At least Torm and Illmater are still alive, oh, and Shaundakul.
Selvarin 12-01-07, 05:40 PM	Heh, sorry about that. But it is based on the route he's been going in each successive edition. So in some instances there's been a subtle heads-up. Torm should be fine. Ilmater as well, although someone will point out he's a copy of Issek of the Jug (Newhon) and that maybe he's not interesting enough. Shaundakul might survive as a lesser power but he will probably fit better in the Nu-Realms as a servitor-demipower of Mielikki. Counting Gwaeron she'll no have two guys under her thumb. ;) As for the topic at-hand, I'd like to say one thing...I don't believe Eilistraee killed Selvetarm. I think Lolth sacrificed him and that the Crescent Blade is an avatar of hers, much as Godslayer was for Mask. In-game, she did so because he wasn't needed and likes to toy with her adversaries, in this instance Eilistraee. If anything, Eilistraee's been doing Lolth's dirty work for her and in the process getting changed. Hopefully she won't become a demipower enslaved by her mother, and that the only tragedy left is the loss of the Promenade (and Qilue).
Zanan 12-01-07, 06:18 PM	-Duergar are a playable race. Illithids too, you know. Even if you dig up info on them in any Underdark sourcebook, you'll hardly find that many psionic chaps in there. But we are going further off topic than we would want to, do we? @ Selvarin ... come on, you cannot like the spoilt brat more than the god of thieves and shadows. ;)
Selvarin 12-01-07, 06:30 PM	Vhaeraun's a cheeky one but he has that whole Mother Complex issue. Almost like a grown-up Stewie. :P The knives are out (not yours, to the best of my knowledge), I'm almost afraid to mention any deities I like for fear they'll hit the high end of the WotC hit list. Hmm, here's a thought. They kill off Solonar and Eilistraee does double-duty as both the main hope for non-evil dark elves and the prime archer of the Seldarine (aside from Corellon, of course). She can dust off that bow, perhaps. Of course that would make her resemble Mielikki too much so that wouldn't be a good idea.
AskaniPsion 12-01-07, 11:17 PM	As for the topic at-hand, I'd like to say one thing...I don't believe Eilistraee killed Selvetarm. I think Lolth sacrificed him and that the Crescent Blade is an avatar of hers, much as Godslayer was for Mask. In-game, she did so because he wasn't needed and likes to toy with her adversaries, in this instance Eilistraee. If anything, Eilistraee's been doing Lolth's dirty work for her and in the process getting changed. Hopefully she won't become a demipower enslaved by her mother, and that the only tragedy left is the loss of the Promenade (and Qilue). Wow cool theory!! I would love that Lolth has been making Eli do her dirty work. I love when Lolth schemes and uses others for her dirty work. :D
Todesherr 12-02-07, 12:44 AM	Me neither. And it doesn't bother me either, I never actually checked whether they have a game world as such. Fair enough, but honestly speaking, Planescape races aside, not a single major (playable) race of Faerūn stood out in history to validate a deity carrying the portfolio either. In general, psionics usually are standouts or outcasts in-setting as much as in-novel when it comes to the Realms. On "Vhaeraun deals with Eilistraee" Against the notion speaks a simple description in LP II, where Lolth herself opens a scrying thingy and shows the audience the hacked and slashed bits and pieces of Vhaeraun floating in the Astral. Obviously, people may happen by claiming that this can be a ruse and all, but folks, we speak of Lolth here, not Torm, Tyr or some other half-brain. That said, the novel series will surely come up with on or two (dozen) surprising things. Was erdeistet Ihr Euch, meinen Herrn zu beleidigen?! Torm is #1...got it?!:mad:
Zanan 12-02-07, 04:54 AM	@ Todesherr ... well, Lolth, Mask, Loviatar, Kiaransalee and last but not least, the omnipotence that is myself (:evillaugh )... just take your pick :D (And, BTW, methinks that the code of conduct demands that you write in a language understandable to all, especially the WizOs ;) )
Phelf_Der_Zemit 12-02-07, 09:38 PM	Hmm, here's a thought. They kill off Solonar and Eilistraee does double-duty as both the main hope for non-evil dark elves and the prime archer of the Seldarine (aside from Corellon, of course). She can dust off that bow, perhaps. Dont forget the Archtype in this situation, Sherevash, the Elven God of Drow Hatered (favored weapon Longbow). Wouldnt that be the most sadly Ironic simitry. Both from a story stand point and from the loss of such a great RPing aspect.
msatran 12-02-07, 09:56 PM	Actually, they'll probably kill Senahine and Hanali, and Eilistraee will replace them. Realistically, Eilistraee is STUPID popular. She's the goddess of drow cheesecake, she's more elfy than Hanali is as far as the Realms is concerned, and they're Realmsifying the pantheon. She might even (Gasp) gain the portfolio of Redemption and become a greater goddess, which I would absolutely ADORE. I don't think they'd get rid of their cheesecake cash cow. On the other hand, it will make a lot of people walk if they do.
Selvarin 12-02-07, 10:44 PM	Shevarash is interesting from a number of angles, even if he's been too bitter for me consider as a patron deity. (Vow to never smile or laugh until Lolth is dead? Might as well make halflings vow not to eat.) Nevermind the retcon effect (which gives the spiffies at WotC carte' blanche to rewrite/cut everything), from a logical standpoint Solonar would be reduced back to Lesser Power status and Shevarash would be his servant. His following is very small but I could see an order in Shevarash's name remaining within Solonar's "church", such as it is. Does it mean that'll necessarily happen? No. I can see the FRDT "Tyring" Solonar. Nothing is certain except most non-human pantheons will be lucky to keep two or three of their own. I like Labelas but it's just as easy to rewrite it so that Corellon gave the elves longetivity--he gave them life as well, right? Not so hard. Having to choose between Sune and Hanali...they'll probably make Hanali an alias of Sune. Don't particularly care for it when I haven't seen the FRDT do the same in the other direction, but whatever... Same goes for Sehahine, although if Selune becomes more of a patron for spellcasters after Mystra's death I can grudgingly let that go. Then there's Rillifane. I suspect he'll be an alias for Silvanus, even if I absolutely can't stand it. (Would it hurt the FRDT to have a non-human deity take that role/responsibility over?) Deep Sashelas---I'd like to see him stay. There ought to be an alternative to Umberlee for non-evils. Then again they could replace him with a more 'generic' sea fey god or goddess. As far as Eilistraee goes, nothing is for certain. The second book shows a newly reorganized church but we don't know for a fact she will remain. (I suspect she will, but...) And as much as I disliked Eilistraee initially--the elf in drow skin aspect--I've come to like her a little more. Even if more than a few howl about those who play good-aligned drow/dark elves, she does provide a decent RP avenue for those who don't want to choose and elven or human deity to follow. And she does have an interesting storyline there.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-03-07, 09:39 AM	I love Eilistraee, but that doesn't mean I want her to be a Greater Goddess or lose her "underdog" aspect.
Zireael 12-03-07, 09:41 AM	Agreed. Eili is the goddess of minority, not majority.
Selvarin 12-03-07, 02:23 PM	She won't become a Greater Goddess, that is certain. She'd have to branch into other areas and, in effect, be more than just the goddess of choice for non-evil drow/dark elves for that to happen.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 12-03-07, 04:34 PM	I love playing Sherevash Clerics, talk about joy kills, and unresonable hate... the best annoying player braking logic at every turn. Jumping across tables at drow they dont even know, and not helping lighten up the area if your talking to a nervous informant... good times.
Selvarin 12-03-07, 04:48 PM	Yeah, but if they laugh or grin they're off the island. :( "A smile is an upside-down frown, go and flip it back 'round." That's their motto.
AskaniPsion 12-03-07, 10:16 PM	I just noticed something last night when looking at all the deity portfolios. Lolth actually has the portfolio for Evil. No other deity has that. I thought maybe Bane or Shar or Cyric would have it but not Lolth. Did she claim the Evil portfolio from another deity she killed like how she got Assassins portfolio? I doubt Moander had it. I really hope that in the Realms they make her preferred weapon a whip like she has in the Core setting instead of the dagger in 4e.
Selvarin 12-03-07, 10:54 PM	It should've been except then she'd bear a tad more resemblance to Loviatar. As for the evil part, who's badder and crueler than a manipulative drow goddess?
AskaniPsion 12-03-07, 11:58 PM	As for the evil part, who's badder and crueler than a manipulative drow goddess? Oh I totally agree but I am surprised WOTC didn't have Cyric or Shar have the Evil portfolio since alot od stories are based around them and they seem to be involved with every Realm-shaking event.
Selvarin 12-04-07, 12:51 AM	Perhaps they have larger plans for Lolth. If they switched her alignment to NE then she could infringe on Loviatar's turf just a bit.
AskaniPsion 12-04-07, 07:08 AM	Perhaps they have larger plans for Lolth. If they switched her alignment to NE then she could infringe on Loviatar's turf just a bit. I like her as "THE Lady of Chaos" - - I would also like to see her get more human worshippers such as assassins & chaotically aligned. I hope she adapts a new symbol - the spider with the drow head just looks goofy - she just needs a spider. The Kilsek family symbol would look cool as her symbol. I am hoping some drow return to the surface in the "100 years' and form a new city like it was in the Crown Wars. Would be cool to see a huge temple to Lolth right in middle of the city.
msatran 12-04-07, 09:07 AM	Uh, how about not. I would rather die than see the Spider Queen get shafted by 4e also. Bad enough that Eilistraee is probably getting jacked by the wall of crack that we're receiving. A temple of Lolth right in the middle of a major city? My players will attack it and burn it to the ground. They won't tolerate that for three seconds! And they're higher level than any group of people that Lolth would send for a suicide mission like this one. And quite frankly, I agree with them. I'm really tired of hearing all the namby pamby liberalism that's tossed about these boards about the civic tolerance of evil creatures and evil races because "Each member of an evil race is an individual." IF you're a paladin, MAYBE if you worship "The forgiving god" as opposed to "The Justice God," you should consider this attitude. Otherwise, your character has NO reason to think this way. Your average character of goodly bent doesn't live in a society redolent of modern philosophy, tolerance, and political correctness. He lives in a city or village where he gets most of his news by word of ear, and the wilderness is filled with monsters, like the evil races previously mentioned. "But these creatures have rights!" Tell that to Lathander. Tell it to Meilikki, whose tolerance for Drizzt's attitude should actually be fairly limited. Evil, Evil, what you gonna do, when the steelsword comes for you... And now...back to Rangers...:)
Selvarin 12-04-07, 02:36 PM	My problem with the Spider Queen is seeing CN types worship her, although I suppose that could represent a segment who isn't wholly lost (and thus possibily redeemable). For all my speculation about her they haven't changed her from CE even when the drow were switched to NE. But if she also takes on the Queen of Air and Darkness aspect among the fey then she'll have a shot at increasing her following on the surface, as opposed to masquerading as Moander. As for Drizzt and Mielikki, what does he exactly do that is displeasing to her? Gods have a greater power to look into the heart. A worshipper is a worshipper, and if he calls upon her--and she doesn't mind--then so be it. With regard to Lolth's temples, how does one know that there aren't any on the surface? If her people wipe out or conquer a (formerly) Vhaeraun-worshipping settlement then they'll definitely remake what passes for a church there in her name.
AskaniPsion 12-04-07, 05:30 PM	A temple of Lolth right in the middle of a major city? Yes a temple of Lolth in a surface DROW city....not a major human city like Waterdeep but an all Drow city. Maybe the Drow can take over Halruaa after the Spellplague and build the all drow city there.
sfdragon 12-04-07, 05:37 PM	dont they have one of those in drambath?
Selvarin 12-04-07, 06:05 PM	dont they have one of those in drambath? There's a temple of Lolth in Cathyr, which helps represent the interests of the drow of the Gnollwatch Mountains (presumably). And Bezantur (in Thay) was listed as having one in 2e FR.
AskaniPsion 12-04-07, 10:46 PM	And Bezantur (in Thay) was listed as having one in 2e FR. Really?? Why would a temple of Lolth be in a strictly human city (with alittle bit of gnoll & undead) scattered in? My "Dreams of the Red Wizards" 2e book is in some box somewhere hehe
Selvarin 12-04-07, 11:19 PM	This was from the 2e boxed set, yep. As for Bezantur, it's a very tolerant city where many evil faiths are openly tolerated and even flaunted. The spider queen of the drow is a popular deity among the humans of Thay. Her temple here is a black dome covered in silver spiderwebs, with the drow inscription Lolth tlu malla; jal ultrinnan zhah xundus (Lolth be praised; all victory is her doing) inscribed in gleaming letters over its portal. Worshipers attend midnight ceremonies here, dressed in long black robes and often decorated with pigments and wigs to make them look likedrow. The drow themselves often attend these services and there are always one or two at the temple. Thayan priestess Rhytella (CE hf C9) considers herself only an acolyte, although she has authority over her entire congregation. The “real” high priestess of Bezantur's temple of Lolth is Triel Teienna (CE ef C12), a drow of the Underdark who visits the temple every few months to oversee operations, indulge in a few sybaritic pleasures, and choose a handful of human followers to accompany her back to her realm. Exactly what happens to these chosen humans is not known; none has ever returned, but this does not lessen the fervor of Lolth's congregation in Bezantur. Instead, most are of the opinion that the chosen humans are living lives of decadent splendor deep underground with their drow "brethren".”
AskaniPsion 12-04-07, 11:40 PM	This was from the 2e boxed set, yep. As for Bezantur, it's a very tolerant city where many evil faiths are openly tolerated and even flaunted. Ah the boxed set - I never had that. Thank you so much for the description !! :D - I knew there were alot of temples in that city but never expected one to Lolth
Zanan 12-05-07, 04:20 AM	It was called Spellbound, BTW. As for CN alignments ... there is no need to be a drow and downright evil all the time. By default. CN can be just as bad. As for deities alignments ... I'd hazard a guess that they just rolled them over from the old sourcebooks. Quite a number could have joined the NE or LE alignments, but there you go.
AskaniPsion 12-05-07, 06:52 AM	It was called Spellbound, BTW. As for CN alignments ... there is no need to be a drow and downright evil all the time. By default. CN can be just as bad. As for deities alignments ... I'd hazard a guess that they just rolled them over from the old sourcebooks. Quite a number could have joined the NE or LE alignments, but there you go. I remember the cover and had always wanted to get it as I love the Witches of Rashemen too. It is a shame we have wait soooooo long for the next book in Lady Penitent. :(
Soltares 12-06-07, 04:54 PM	Die hard Gygaxian fans may resent the increasing attention and complexity this garnered towards what originally started as a single-dimension "Bad Guy Race"...but Dark Elves have a following...and reducing the race to their roots of "Lloth-Centric Spider Kissers" or "Frolicking Black Skinned Pansies" does nothing to expand the concept. As such a diehard, I'm prompted to point out that the very first introduction of Drow, by Gygax, had them worshipping at least one other god, besides Lolth, which was actually part of the whole plotline, with one house secretly worshipping the Elder Elemental God (played in the Realms by Ghaunadar). It was suggested that other cults also existed, some following other demon lords, some other forces, but that was never developed further (imagine, if you will, a Drow society as vibrant as the Lolth-worshippers, devoted to Orcus, or Demogorgon, or Juiblex, the demon lords of the day! Pity we never got to see it, the idea sounds awesome, a race of dark elves who feel that since the elven gods cast them down, they in turn will forsake the gods, and serve other forbidden powers that whisper in the dark places!). Turning dark elves into two-dimensional caricatures doesn't seem to be something that's being done by Gygax, as I'm not aware of him working on 4th edition, or having anything to do with the pointless deaths of Vhaerun, Selvetarm or Kiaransalee (all of whom I liked more than Lolth. Ironically, the Drow diety I would most want to set on fire and dance around the corpse is one of the two surviving ones, Eilistrae, goddess of annoying emo fanbois...). Lolth, as dieties go, is also a tad lame. I liked her better as a dangerous and over-the-top demon lord (queen, that is) with worshippers, seeking apotheosis. As an insane and wildly chaotic greater goddess, who runs the most uber-lawful fanatically puritanical dictatorship EVER, a thousand times more efficient than anything Bane, the *god of tyranny* could run in his wildest authoritarian fantasies, I'm not as impressed with the total illogic of her portrayal. Developing the Drow into something more than a two-dimensional caricature, or mindless 'monster' to be hacked down, is perfectly consistent with what Gygax did when he first introduced them, complete with multiple opposing gods and a society in conflict. Historical note; 1985 - Gygax introduces Drow as a *playable race* in Unearthed Arcana. 1987 - Forgotten Realms 'gray box' comes out, establishing a fantastically evocative new setting. 1988 - RA Salvatore writes his first book with Drizzt as a character. So, clearly, Drow as more than a two-dimensional caricature or 'monster' pre-dated the Realms publication, and, specifically, the Realms further development of Drow. RA Salvatore continued a trend that had been established before him, and, with the publication of Unearthed Arcana, it was clear that the race was getting better development than, say, Orcs.
AskaniPsion 12-06-07, 06:16 PM	My problem with the Spider Queen is seeing CN types worship her, although I suppose that could represent a segment who isn't wholly lost (and thus possibily redeemable). For all my speculation about her they haven't changed her from CE even when the drow were switched to NE. But if she also takes on the Queen of Air and Darkness aspect among the fey then she'll have a shot at increasing her following on the surface, as opposed to masquerading as Moander. One thing to keep in mind is the CE alignment is Lolth's alignment. She loves spreading chaos to keep her followers on their feet - only the strongest survive in her eyes. She doesn't want her people to be stagnant. Most of the Drow are NE as it is "natural" for a society to have some kind of laws to survive and have structure. Lolth is willing to let her children have structure but then she also likes throwing them curveballs. I think they are NEUTRAL evil, as behind the scenes they break their own laws to get ahead in the society. As long as they don't get caught, Lolth smiles on them. So I see no problem with the NE drow worshipping a CE diety. There are Lawful Neutral churches that have evil worshippers. In my opinion, what the Helm followers did in Maztica to the natives I thought was cruel and twinged with greed/power/evil. Lolth is not insane and she is always plotting. She likes to have others do her dirty work. She likes manipulating other gods to go against other gods. She has come a long way since her banishment. What others see as insane is just chaos. She does things on a whim sometimes but she always has a plan. Something I would expect from ANY chaotic diety. A lawful diety you would know what to expect from them - as they seem to do the same thing over and over. I would love to see Lolth manipulating Eli the whole time in the Lady Pentent storyline. With the merging of Eli and V, Eli is going to go through alot of changes. I have a feeling Eli personally will become a CN aligned diety due to her mixed followers now and her corruption. With the upcoming Spellplague, I would love to see Lolth take advantage of the chaos and build an all drow city on the surface. Maybe the city can be where Halruaa currently is. Maybe all their magic came crashing down. The drow stepped in and took advantage of it. The Halruaa society is ingrained with magic that with the loss of it, the whole society would be in chaos and easy pickings.
Selvarin 12-07-07, 01:31 AM	I'm aware she's CE but I have a problem with seeing a CN drow cleric of hers. Her dogma, her dictates, etc., are about encouraging the evil she represents, keeping drow at each other's throats when they aren't slitting those of a surface-dweller. Within the priesthood how does one walk that line--serving an actively malicious goddess--and keep from going all the way into that abyss? Eilistraee's already at that point, even without the PoL that seems to guide other aspects of the revamp. She's grittier and more fey, and Lolth is hoping to poison her from within just as she did with Selvetarm. Not sure if Ghaunadaur will be mentioned at all in book 3, but Lolth's sure to throw in one more hard choice at her daughter. Perhaps having to choose between being a beacon for dissent drow or keeping her alliance with the Seldarine, with another god's existence at stake beside her own.
Zanan 12-07-07, 04:25 AM	Well, it would only be a fraction of her clergy (BTW) which would be CN, most likely the rangers, scout/clerics and what have you. Those not involved in the daily scheeming of a drow house. As for one-dimansional creatures, the first real Underdark Drizzt novel, Homeland, introduced us to quite a number "more-dimensional" drow, e.g. Malice do'Urden. Essentially, should things turn the nasty way with 4E, I can clearly envisage a number of "my" evil drow turn their attention and prayers to demon lords (Malcanthet), archdevils (Glasya, Belial, Dispater) and other (powerful) evil deities (Talos, Bane, Mask, Loviatar) rather than following the road of redemption or the like. But hey, 4E will turn the world upside down anyway, so who knows what comes our way ...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-07-07, 02:10 PM	As for one-dimansional creatures, the first real Underdark Drizzt novel, Homeland, introduced us to quite a number "more-dimensional" drow, e.g. Malice do'Urden. She was "more-than-one-dimensional"? I thought most of the drow in those novels were pretty simplistic characters. Essentially, should things turn the nasty way with 4E, I can clearly envisage a number of "my" evil drow turn their attention and prayers to demon lords (Malcanthet), archdevils (Glasya, Belial, Dispater) and other (powerful) evil deities (Talos, Bane, Mask, Loviatar) rather than following the road of redemption or the like. But hey, 4E will turn the world upside down anyway, so who knows what comes our way ... Why not just do things your own way?:)
Selvarin 12-07-07, 02:14 PM	I thought he actually meant Vierna, Drizzt's sis, who didn't really become uber-wicked till after the noble house was obliterated.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-07-07, 02:26 PM	I thought he actually meant Vierna, Drizzt's sis, who didn't really become uber-wicked till after the noble house was obliterated. True, Vierna was fairly layered.
Zanan 12-07-07, 03:36 PM	I actually meant Malice. You see, there is a definite difference between Malice and Vierna, mother and daughter. Spelling and story-wise. Maybe I wasn't precise enough here. Malice gave flesh to the bones of the MM drow priestesses, these Gygax - Queen of the Demonweb Pits - bloodthirsty somethings. And while we are at it, the descriptions of the various matrons and adventure NPCs in the Menzo box also hinted at more than assassinations and bloodshed in a femal drow's mind. Something which was, at that time, quite a step ahead. "My way" ... well, I like to. For some unknown reason, I still have a keen interest in the events of the "official way". Hence my ... reservations about what has come to pass lately. Or what comes ahead. Reading that Sehanine will be turned into the Elven Selūne or Gruumsh and Talos being one and the same too gives me the creeps again. Better I hurry off and harrass my players a wee bit.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-07-07, 05:36 PM	Maybe I wasn't precise enough here. Malice gave flesh to the bones of the MM drow priestesses, these Gygax - Queen of the Demonweb Pits - bloodthirsty somethings. And while we are at it, the descriptions of the various matrons and adventure NPCs in the Menzo box also hinted at more than assassinations and bloodshed in a femal drow's mind. Something which was, at that time, quite a step ahead. OK, I think I understand your point now.:) "My way" ... well, I like to. For some unknown reason, I still have a keen interest in the events of the "official way". Hence my ... reservations about what has come to pass lately. Or what comes ahead. Reading that Sehanine will be turned into the Elven Selūne or Gruumsh and Talos being one and the same too gives me the creeps again. Better I hurry off and harrass my players a wee bit. Yeah, I'm not happy about much of the new stuff, myself.
johnkretzer 12-07-07, 05:44 PM	I thought he actually meant Vierna, Drizzt's sis, who didn't really become uber-wicked till after the noble house was obliterated. She was a interesting character right till the point Salvatore turned her into a iredeemably evil prietess that is just another monster for Drizzt to cut down...and get all emo about. Sorry it would have been nice to see her become something else.
AskaniPsion 12-07-07, 06:06 PM	Yeah I really liked Vierna too. Forgot about her. I would like to see a female drow warlock in an upcoming book - we got enough priestesses & wizzies in the book. A female drow shadowdancer would be cool also.
msatran 12-07-07, 06:07 PM	Hey, that's not surprising. It all tastes like tofu to me.
Zanan 12-08-07, 04:34 AM	Yeah I really liked Vierna too. Forgot about her. I would like to see a female drow warlock in an upcoming book - we got enough priestesses & wizzies in the book. A female drow shadowdancer would be cool also. Well, as they have - by now - shown that the elves are no true whole-hearted treehuggers in various novels lately, it is time to have a more diverse view on the drow as well*. Some females who, while still "evil", are not necessarily diehard priestesses only interested in their House or Lolth, but something "more" trivial. Warlocks, shadowdancers, hexblades, archivists make all good starting points for more adventurous females. And a change from the archetypical rebellious drow male wizard would go down well too. *No, I'm not promoting more drow novels, just pointing the way.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-08-07, 08:55 PM	And a change from the archetypical rebellious drow male wizard would go down well too. Seconded.
Bryaxis 12-09-07, 08:44 AM	I still want to see where the rebel drow males will go now. Unless male clerics like Karas can make significant progress, the Masked Lady's church will continue to be female-dominated. I doubt that House Jaelre will even manage to survive, and I don't expect much from House Auzkovyn. Perhaps the Jaezred Chaulssin will have an influx of masculist renegades in the near future. Come to think of it, we may see far fewer surface drow in the coming edition. The increased faerzress still remains a problem, and Lolth might decide to kick it up another notch now that What's-Her-Name's followers have gotten the ball rolling. She probably thinks that life would be more interesting without divinations, anyway. In the Orc King exerpt, Drizzt said that Eilistraee's followers were "gone", not dead; they could all be underground, unable to break away from the faerzress.
Suin Bahhar 12-09-07, 08:57 AM	I expect 4ed to have fearzress linked to the weave and after "Dove smashes the blackstar" all drow are able to move to the surface.
Zanan 12-09-07, 09:07 AM	I expect 4ed to have fearzress linked to the weave and after "Dove smashes the blackstar" all drow are able to move to the surface. No, I didn't read the above. No, I didn't. No no.
Suin Bahhar 12-09-07, 09:12 AM	:P
AskaniPsion 12-09-07, 11:05 AM	I expect 4ed to have fearzress linked to the weave and after "Dove smashes the blackstar" all drow are able to move to the surface. Yeah I think the Drow will start moving to the surface too especially when they find out the faerzress was actually a "prison"
Suin Bahhar 12-09-07, 11:25 AM	I dont actually think drow would want to go to the surface anymore even if they aren't compelled to stay below in the Underdark. But a share of surface loving drow would have a much easier time going away from the dark tunnels of the Underdark. I truly hope Eilistraee will be the guiding light for surface drow. Maybe Lolths hold on the drow will not be so secure anymore.
AskaniPsion 12-09-07, 11:56 AM	what is this "blackstar" that Dove is going to smash?? I am guessing you are referring to Dove Falconhand?
Suin Bahhar 12-09-07, 01:02 PM	************information classified***********acces denied********this post will selfdestruct in 3***2***1***
Selvarin 12-09-07, 02:20 PM	She was a interesting character right till the point Salvatore turned her into a iredeemably evil prietess that is just another monster for Drizzt to cut down...and get all emo about. Sorry it would have been nice to see her become something else. I think that was the point of it, though. There was Zaknafein who wasn't evil but who still played his part within the drow 'machinery' despite his hatred of the system. He redeemed himself in some sense by giving his life in place of his son's. With Vierna, it seems the loss of her (noble) house nearly drove her mad in some respects. It's as if she lost her identity and place, and in that moment laid all the blame on Drizzt. In her case she's the example of one who could've but didn't, she threw herself in the other direction. Of course it's been a few years since I read the books so I could be way off. The Promenade's going back to Ghaundaur, that's just my opinion. The Crescent Blade gets left back there in the chaos, then after a 100-year jump the Eilistraeeans can regroup and mount a crusade to get it back. Then WotC can publish a 4e adventure about it. Ain't "Points of Light" grand?
msatran 12-09-07, 11:36 PM	I am beyond not happy with this entire scheme. It just sucks. We can point to 2007, and the announcement of 4th edition, as the day that D+D died.
AskaniPsion 12-09-07, 11:42 PM	There is going to be ALOT that each of us don't like......I just seeing every group houserulling alot of stuff. Unfortunately it will also wreck the novels.
Zanan 12-10-07, 04:11 AM	While there is always the doom & gloom of Ragnageddon looming in the back of one's mind, there is nothing there stopping us playing in the Realms inbetween ... say -15,000 and 1374 D.R., right? Using any sort of rules-set you like. I'd like to have a look at this 4E magic system first, just to see whether these changes were actually needed to play a system like that within Realmspace. Obviously, if you need to change a setting for the rules, the latter are at fault, not the former.
msatran 12-10-07, 07:26 AM	Yeah. I'm not a big fan of that kind of playstyle, where the rules force feed the flavor text. This is too much like Exalted and World of Darkness, which have a largely incomprehensible combat system to begin with. I realize we're still going to be rolling a d20 for initiative, but heck, this is going to suck for ongoing games.
Zireael 12-10-07, 09:14 AM	I hope they won't spoil the whole world now... :( What's got Dove Falconhand to do with drow and faerzress?? Lloth Has To Stay!
Zanan 12-10-07, 09:31 AM	Someone noted somewhere (EnWorld) else that in a certain book (Races & Classes) the following will ... or rather might be: * Ability damage is gone. * Dragonborn scales are bronze or golden in color. * Elves are now as tall (or taller) than humans, though still very slender and graceful. * Halflings are described as having the tendency to "acquire" things due to intense curiosity (much as the Dragonlance kender do). They are now a bit taller than before, about 4 feet on average, weighing about 65 pounds. * Azers and galeb-dur are mentioned as once-dwarves who became completely enslaved by their ancient giant masters. * Tieflings are not human and demonic offspring, but are the true-breeding descendants of an ancient empire that made dark and terrible pacts with the Nine Hells. Their fiendish visage is actually a manifestation of a curse, due to their progenitors' crimes. They're more closely tried to devils than demons. * Known gods include Bahamut, Corellon (god of magic), Io ("the ancient diety," now dead and split into Bahamut and Tiamat), Lolth, Moradin, Obad-Hai (god of the wilderness), Sehanine (goddess of the moon), Tiamat, and Zehir (god of night). So there we have Lolth, but also Sehanine (who is going to be another name for Selūne in the Realms) and Zehir, whom I have never heard of, yet was told that he (maybe) is from Heroes of Might and Magic V (shock-horror).
Zireael 12-10-07, 09:40 AM	:confused: :confused: :confused::mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: What's that meant to be?! DIE $D!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Bryaxis 12-10-07, 10:07 AM	* Halflings are described as having the tendency to "acquire" things due to intense curiosity (much as the Dragonlance kender do). They are now a bit taller than before, about 4 feet on average, weighing about 65 pounds. Great. On top of everything, the new FR novels will each have a Tasselhoff clone. My rage burns with the fire of a million suns.
Alediran 12-10-07, 10:11 AM	Great. On top of everything, the new FR novels will each have a Tasselhoff clone. Great, another way to aprove childish behavior and lack of respect for the DM's adventure.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-10-07, 11:27 AM	I'd like to have a look at this 4E magic system first, just to see whether these changes were actually needed to play a system like that within Realmspace. Obviously, if you need to change a setting for the rules, the latter are at fault, not the former. I don't buy it that the changes were done purely to accomodate the new rules. My gut feeling is that the changes to the setting were done because--for a variety of reasons--the designers wanted to make them.
msatran 12-10-07, 12:39 PM	Great. On top of everything, the new FR novels will each have a Tasselhoff clone. My rage burns with the fire of a million suns. Well, my rage burns with the fire of a billion hemmorhoids, because this whole thing sucks a**, and Kender were the worst thing ABOUT Dragonlance.
Rauric 12-10-07, 12:52 PM	The Kender thing is not so hot. The rest is fine or I will ignore things that does not suit me like a reasonable adult/gamer.
Suin Bahhar 12-10-07, 05:01 PM	Heros of Might and Magic. :eek: :noway: :drops dead: *raises head* :crazy: Five? :ack: :ghosted:
Stigger 12-10-07, 05:25 PM	:blink: I'm done... just done... if that Hin thing is accurate... bah...
Kiaransalee 12-11-07, 12:37 PM	Talking about the "Lady Penitent" series, can anyone think of a way to bring the Lady of the Dead back from the grave ? I'm desperately trying to find one...
AskaniPsion 12-11-07, 12:48 PM	Talking about the "Lady Penitent" series, can anyone think of a way to bring the Lady of the Dead back from the grave ? I'm desperately trying to find one... Well if it is regarding to your campaign, just simply say it never happened or say she simply lost her divinity and has to attempt to get it back. "Lolth" died in the awful "Queen of the Demonweb" Greyhawk novel, and people simply ignored it. Made perfect sense that a Goddess would die by falling in a pit in her own realm. :rolleyes: Since that novel, Lolth is still around in Greyhawk stuff.
Fire_Wraith 12-11-07, 12:59 PM	I think the poor camel is about squished to paste by the metric kiloton of straw that's been dumped on it, at least for me. I could take some of it... especially if it was done in a way that was designed to be as unintrusive as possible, or the designers were willing to moderate some of the things being changed to take the wishes of a lot of fans into account, while still trying to fix what they perceive as problems. But it's not, they aren't (or I get that impression, strongly) - and so I can't. I might try the 4th Edition base rules, but any FR supplements involving any of this insanity is out of the question for me.
GreenKnight 12-11-07, 09:41 PM	Cormyr and the Dalelands: Roleplaying and Storytelling in The Forgotten Realms on Neverwinter Nights Completely off-topic, but this isn't for NWN2, right? I'm kind of hoping you just forgot to put in the 2, as I've been dying to find a good NWN2 Persistent World for a while, now. ;)
Fire_Wraith 12-12-07, 08:40 AM	Completely off-topic, but this isn't for NWN2, right? I'm kind of hoping you just forgot to put in the 2, as I've been dying to find a good NWN2 Persistent World for a while, now. ;) We're still on NWN1 at the moment. The NWN2 version is still in the planning stages, because I/we intend to do it right. At the moment though, all we're really lacking is the graphics engine, because we've already modded NWN1 to add in most of the 3.5 rules, new spells, feats, fully functional ECL support, and so on. Of course, with all that's going on in the Realms for 4e, we're not planning to keep using the Realms when we move to NWN2, although we'll likely take the aspects we like for use in our own custom world.
Alediran 12-12-07, 09:14 AM	Of course, with all that's going on in the Realms for 4e, we're not planning to keep using the Realms when we move to NWN2, although we'll likely take the aspects we like for use in our own custom world. To counter that I started to make a website for an alternative FR timeline that will continue giving support to the 3ed FR. It's possible that when 4ed core appears and IF the rules are good we'll make a transition stage (not the Spellplague, something smoother, like a breakthrough in magic that spreads like wildfire to everybody, thus changing magic for the realms without killing Mystra)
Fire_Wraith 12-12-07, 11:39 AM	To counter that I started to make a website for an alternative FR timeline that will continue giving support to the 3ed FR. It's possible that when 4ed core appears and IF the rules are good we'll make a transition stage (not the Spellplague, something smoother, like a breakthrough in magic that spreads like wildfire to everybody, thus changing magic for the realms without killing Mystra) I thought about that, and discussed it with the others, but ultimately decided we were better off with our own world, for several reasons. Most of all, though, it saves confusion when new players come in. When you say "Forgotten Realms", people have a lot of expectations, especially those that are familiar with the current official version. It's a lot easier to start people with the blank slate of a new world than continually correct misconceptions.
Avatar of Kokusho 12-12-07, 12:13 PM	Talking about the "Lady Penitent" series, can anyone think of a way to bring the Lady of the Dead back from the grave ? I'm desperately trying to find one... You should be playing in my campaign.....:D I have a guy trying to rebuild her church before she fades from lack of worhippers, and he's doing pretty darned well. Of course, being undead helps when making undead.... Plus I'm having a ball RPing an insane goddess.
Zanan 12-13-07, 09:35 AM	Originally Posted by Kiaransalee Talking about the "Lady Penitent" series, can anyone think of a way to bring the Lady of the Dead back from the grave ? I'm desperately trying to find one...You should be playing in my campaign.....:D I have a guy trying to rebuild her church before she fades from lack of worhippers, and he's doing pretty darned well. Of course, being undead helps when making undead.... Plus I'm having a ball RPing an insane goddess. Well, IMHO LP and Drow of the Underdark made a complete hash of the drow pantheon. For both are pretty much inconclusive in many respects. For the question at hand ... Kiaransalee "faded from existence" within Realmspace. As her worshippers apparently arrived from different worlds too, and her crusader order (Demihuman Deities), the Banshee Knights, are know for extensive planar travelling, there is every chance that they may come back to Faerūn again - wondering what has happened to their comrades and start a little war of vengeance. Obviously, no-one bar a massive designer's "No-no!" bars that mage from casting his oh-so-cute spell again, using the name of e.g. Lolth. I could start asking why she faded at all, since a deity is not solely defined by just one name and it is well possible that not each and every priestess (not to mention "lay" followers) was actually affected (for only those in the Underdark were). And keep in mind that just one priest would keep her in existence ... you had/have the same with Finder. Well, well ...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-13-07, 11:01 AM	Besides, don't even gods have truenames? I'd think if the name-erasing spell was a truly effective way of making a god fade away, the spell would need to use the truename, not just the common name the deity is known by.
Butterface 12-13-07, 01:26 PM	Alright, I stayed off of this thread until I'd read the first two LP books, not wanting any spoilers. I *really* like the direction Eilistraee is going in these novels! I've always felt like Vhaerun and Eilistraee were way too focused on gender. As a male that doesn't enjoy playing female characters, I have always liked the idea of Eilistraee but could never envision myself playing a character that worships her. It's so female dominated its just as bad as Lloth's faith, in a different way. Karas really points this out in the novels. On the flipside, Vhaerun is just too evil for me. The nightshadows' dream come true would be a completely male dominated Drow society, and as someone who enjoys playing heroic characters I can't get behind this mindset either. Finally, we are beginning to have a Drow deity that I can really get behind as a player. I *loved* it when Qilue commanded Cavatina and the rest of the female clergy to allow the Nightshadows into their sacred dance. So many different character ideas come to mind here within this single faith. Let's face it - the idea of Drow as a hated race that always has to live in the Underdark, and is kill-on-sight if they venture on to the surface, except for the extremely rare exception (Drizz't or someone's PC), has been done to DEATH. I'm enjoying the concept of the two ancient dark elf cities that were struck down in the Crown Wars - one with a demonic taint that probably deserved permanent exile, and one that didn't. I look forward to the idea of a serious return of Drow to the surface, and all the RP and tough situations that will come with that. I'm waiting with great anticipation to see what happens with House Melarn and Drow High Magic. And all of this can be accomplished through a much less noble, yet more practical, Masked Lady that embraces both genders equally in her faith! Now I just hope she doesn't get axed in the third novel. :(
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-13-07, 01:32 PM	This has been discussed before, but the reader has only the word of a braggart demon (is there any other kind?) that ancient dark elves somehow got tainted as a race with demonic blood.
AskaniPsion 12-13-07, 01:44 PM	Well, IMHO LP and Drow of the Underdark made a complete hash of the drow pantheon. For both are pretty much inconclusive in many respects. For the question at hand ... Kiaransalee "faded from existence" within Realmspace. As her worshippers apparently arrived from different worlds too, and her crusader order (Demihuman Deities), the Banshee Knights, are know for extensive planar travelling, there is every chance that they may come back to Faerūn again - wondering what has happened to their comrades and start a little war of vengeance. Obviously, no-one bar a massive designer's "No-no!" bars that mage from casting his oh-so-cute spell again, using the name of e.g. Lolth. I could start asking why she faded at all, since a deity is not solely defined by just one name and it is well possible that not each and every priestess (not to mention "lay" followers) was actually affected (for only those in the Underdark were). And keep in mind that just one priest would keep her in existence ... you had/have the same with Finder. Well, well ... It would be actually funny if Eli absorbed all the undead stuff from Kia - Eli would be one messed up deity. Even now all her worshippers are all confused with her absorbing all of V's clergy. I think it would be great if it was all as Lolth planned - she has twisted deities before.
Alediran 12-13-07, 01:59 PM	I think it would be great if it was all as Lolth planned - she has twisted deities before. The difference is that Eilistraee is Corellon's favourite daughter. He would step to prevent Lolth from corrupting her completely (if Lisa Smedman doesn't use this and make Eilistraee fall to Lolth then she should be branded as a bar writer)
msatran 12-13-07, 04:29 PM	Quite frankly, the idea of Eilistraee getting a beer truck ending sucks, and if it happens, I'll be done with the Realms as a continuous customer.
Zanan 12-13-07, 06:59 PM	On a sidenote ... Miyeritar and Ilythiir are not merely dark elven cities, they were nations with dozen if not hundreds of cities and hundreds of thousands of inhabitants. Personally, I'd hate to see the drow being turned into something semi-drow like the folk of Eberron. That would be the second setting after Eberron, where they get turned into some fanboyish rather then menacing. Personally II., I cannot see any point in turning them patriarchic as well. I mean, if you care to look at it, almost all of Faerūn is and these handful of female dominated regions, nations or faiths always seem suffer the most when it comes to player or designer attention. You have some 80% of games material to choose from, just leave them be! What next? Turn the amazons male as well? Uh well, we have no amazons in the Realms as yet.
Stigger 12-13-07, 07:58 PM	Actually, there are quasi-amazons in the Vilhon Reach, on that tiny little island off the coast of Turmish.
Alediran 12-14-07, 07:44 AM	Actually, there are quasi-amazons in the Vilhon Reach, on that tiny little island off the coast of Turmish. Shhhh, don't alert them...
Fire_Wraith 12-15-07, 04:45 PM	I liked the change in the religion to allow males and females co-equal roles, of sorts. What I dislike is the notion that Eilistraee is getting "corrupted" somehow, which is what it all seems to be leading to. The theme of forgiveness and redemption was part of what made it such an appealing one for me to play, or to read about. Lose that, and all you've got left are naked women dancing with swords under moonlight - oh, except there's men there now too, so it's just a big naked dancing precursor to... yeah, the sort of things that were implied about in the novels :rolleyes: ...not that that's not entertaining in some ways, but I liked having a little more to the religion. :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-15-07, 06:09 PM	Basically, Eilistraee's religion is slowly moving away from what I liked about it in the first place.
Zanan 12-15-07, 06:48 PM	I liked the change in the religion to allow males and females co-equal roles, of sorts. What I dislike is the notion that Eilistraee is getting "corrupted" somehow, which is what it all seems to be leading to. The theme of forgiveness and redemption was part of what made it such an appealing one for me to play, or to read about. Lose that, and all you've got left are naked women dancing with swords under moonlight - oh, except there's men there now too, so it's just a big naked dancing precursor to... yeah, the sort of things that were implied about in the novels :rolleyes: ...not that that's not entertaining in some ways, but I liked having a little more to the religion. :P Yeah, make her religion like about 150 other religions of the Realms. :confused:
Zireael 12-17-07, 08:58 AM	I think Eili is getting a lot more like her mother... :( and if it happens, I'll .... :( :( :( :( And don't make her a surface-something, it's enough what has been done with Seldarine.
Avatar of Kokusho 12-17-07, 11:32 AM	I figure the "new" Elistraee is a blending of her former self and her brother...but still not evil. She would realize that at times you must use that which you don't agree with to serve the greater good. Thus, the stealth and other tricks used by the former followers of Vhaeruan would be tolerated, to a point. Plus, IMC, she gained the Trickery domain. Created a new PrC for former followers of Vhaeraun, too, for the campaign I was talking about. Quite nice, really. Rogue/clerics can be beastly.. At any rate, I do want the last book to come out, because Ghaunadar is...gross...and is yet another campaign hook I can use to throw poeple off-balance. The whole story about how Kiaranselee supposedly faded from existence immediately made no sense to me. A god's powers are directly related to the number of worshippers he or she has, and a spell such as the one Q'arlynd cast would offer a save to the followers...most would fail miserably, but one, somewhere had to realize it wasn't true...she would be diminished severely but not totally annihilated.
Kenzuki 12-18-07, 02:17 PM	Does this mean that Elis got her bro's portfolios now?
CassiusSchermont 12-18-07, 02:49 PM	I believe that Lolth holds the Evil portfolio because she actually teaches her children to be evil. If you read the War of the Spider Queen, Quenthal gives a lecture at Arach-Tinilith about Evil being their goal as a society. I don't believe Bane, Shar, or Cyric teach their followers to be evil. They teach their followers to be selfish. Lolth is the only one who teaches her followers to be Evil for evil's sake.
AskaniPsion 12-18-07, 05:48 PM	Does this mean that Elis got her bro's portfolios now? I am guessing she does....she is a blend of herself and her brother hence why she is asking her followers to do things she NEVER would have asked before the merger. I am betting her alignment will also swift to a neutral alignment which will pull her further into Lolth's web of control. Now she will be known as the "Masked Lady". It would be cool if she got Mask's portfolios too. I actually like Eli now since the merger.
Selvarin 12-18-07, 08:26 PM	She's probably CN as a result. And their portfolios have merged somewhat. Not that she'd take on thievery and 'evil activity on the surface', a bit vague there...but overall both sought to overthrow Lolth's dominion. So, what would Eilistraee's new portfolio really look like? Hers was both broader and less vague than Vhaeraun's. Eilistraee Lesser Power (unchanged) Possible portfolio: Surface drow, rebellion (against Lolth), stealth Domains: Chaos, Charm, Drow, Moon, Portal, Travel, Trickery Not that domains will likely exist in 4e FR, nonetheless...*shrug*... They will be more about survival and rebuilding their own culture separate from that which is Lolth's doing in the darkness below. Other aims will largely be the same but less averse to being ruthless when it's called for. Assuming she isn't stuck to Lolth's web and sucked dry. WotC's motto seems to be one racial god per group--no more for you! :mad: As for Ghaunadaur, the fact the GHotR mentioned him escaping is an example of an off-stage act. I doubt there will be much more than a sentence about him in the last book. The rest will be on the endgame between lolth and Eilistraee. Otherwise it would be a distraction, and there are already more than a few threads in this tale.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 12-18-07, 10:19 PM	Now she will be known as the "Masked Lady". It would be cool if she got Mask's portfolios too. I actually like Eli now since the merger. Now if this happened I might just go all Edward Norton in fight club and... "We'll I gota tell ya I'd be very, very careful who you'd talk to about that, because the person who said that is dangerous. And this button down, oxeford cloth physco, might just snap and stalk from office to office with an armor light AR10 carbine gas powered semi-automatic weapon. Pumping round after round into colleage and coworkers. This might be some one you've known for years; some one very, very close to you. Just a thought. I just love mask to much.
Zanan 12-19-07, 06:21 AM	Lolth is the only one who teaches her followers to be Evil for evil's sake. Teaching? Does she? How? Where? Assumption? Bane has the portfolio of wizards. Vhaeraun has the portfolio of "evil activity on the surface" - without any other restriction. Does that tell us anything? Yes! It tells us to double-check what portfolios are meant to be, and suddenly it becomes more clear: "something these deities are most often associated with". It does not mean that the deities as such actually "hold" portfolios in the business market sense or the like. It is how they are perceived by the populace of Faerūn.
Stigger 12-19-07, 06:40 AM	Bane has wizards? Thought that was Azuth...
Kenzuki 12-19-07, 08:29 AM	That is Azuth, don't know where she got that from.....
Stigger 12-19-07, 08:32 AM	I'm going to presume that there was a missing "of the Coast by the balls" in there and just leave it at that.
Zanan 12-19-07, 10:15 AM	That is Azuth, don't know where she got that from..... Just read the wrong line, mea culpa. Wizards "worship him". But anyway, that was not my point in the text above.
18DELTA 12-20-07, 03:26 PM	Lolth is now a deceitfull Eladrin Goddess of Shadow and Moon!:eek: She is still a SPIDER LOVER, so are her followers The Dark Elves! Wizards Presents: Races and Classes.
Selvarin 12-20-07, 03:36 PM	Lolth is now a deceitfull Eladrin Goddess of Shadow and Moon!:eek: She is still a SPIDER LOVER, so are her followers The Dark Elves! Wizards Presents: Races and Classes. What the Frellllllll??? Didn't that same book also mention Sehahine as a moon goddess? We already know where Sehahine's going so I wouldn't put much stock in anything written in that book. It was set in August after all.
DarkSongKnight 12-20-07, 04:12 PM	Lolth has the moon?! :eek: This doesn't bode well...... :weep: *Repeats to self "Core doesn't go into the Realms! Core doesn't go into the Realms!"*
AskaniPsion 12-20-07, 06:03 PM	Lolth is now a deceitfull Eladrin Goddess of Shadow and Moon!:eek: She is still a SPIDER LOVER, so are her followers The Dark Elves! Wizards Presents: Races and Classes. It actually says that in the book? I wonder why no one else has mentioned that? :confused: I would love that she was a Goddess of Shadow but the Moon is supposed to be Sehanine.
Selvarin 12-20-07, 06:07 PM	It's beyond lame if Lolth has the moon as well as shadows. Especially considering how Eilistraee was slowly being fashioned as the lady of starlight and shadows, walking from the light into the dark and back again. Way to go, WotC. :rolleyes:
Stigger 12-20-07, 06:18 PM	Could be that its setting up Lolth to kill Eilistraee and take the moon thing from her...
AskaniPsion 12-20-07, 06:19 PM	It's beyond lame if Lolth has the moon as well as shadows. Especially considering how Eilistraee was slowly being fashioned as the lady of starlight and shadows, walking from the light into the dark and back again. Way to go, WotC. :rolleyes: Sehanine and Lolth are my top 2 favorite deities and I don't want to see Lolth have control of the Moon!! It would totally cancel out the "Evermeet" novel. If anything, Lolth should have Darkness, shadows, Evil, evil fey, spiders, drow, trickery and chaos. Sehanine has got to keep Moon and starlight. Eli can have rogues, assassins, song, swordwork, dance, hunting, shadowdancers, male drow, warriors (from Selevetarm)
Selvarin 12-20-07, 06:26 PM	Yep. Wonder-frickin'-ful. Oh well, don't need to buy the third novel in the series now. Two more lattes instead when at B&N.
AskaniPsion 12-20-07, 06:43 PM	Remember this was just a preview book....anything in it can still change....well except for Mystra coming back. :(
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-20-07, 07:21 PM	Could be that its setting up Lolth to kill Eilistraee and take the moon thing from her... I was thinking the exact same thing.
DarkSongKnight 12-20-07, 07:40 PM	I've really been hoping that Lolth doesn't slay and absorb Eilistraee. Maybe Sehanine will intervene somehow? Its been said that Eilistraee and her have a sort of mother/daughter relationship. In the mixup/battle, Eilistraee loses the Moon portfolio to Lolth, gains the Starlight one, and Sehanine is somehow weakened to the point where she volunteers to merge with Selune... making her a Greater power to combat Shar. Eilistraee is then known as The Lady of Starlight and Shadow (I like that title), and the good goddess of the Moon is pretty much the same in a portfolio sense, just stronger. She is known as Selune to humans, and Sehanine to the elves. Eilistraee survives to continue to offer an alternative to Lolth for goodly drow, and Sehanine/Selune didn't really lose anything in the portfolio, as Selune has the Moon in her portfolio. She'd actually gain quite a few, like transcendence, the heavens, death, elven mysteries, illusions, lycanthropes, etc. Yeah I know, the idea sickens me too... but hey, I'm trying to think of an idea that works, so that everyone is at least somewhat ok with it...
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 09:31 PM	Maybe Sehanine will intervene somehow? Its been said that Eilistraee and her have a sort of mother/daughter relationship. -In Evermeet: Island of the Elves, Corellon Larethian threatens Vhaeraun, and Lolth, by proxy, that if they ever laid hands on Eilistraee, it'd be the last thing they do. Keeping this in mind, Corellon Larethian would be far more likely to involve. Of course, that's assuming that the authors and designers in question remember this little tidbit.
AskaniPsion 12-21-07, 01:10 AM	-In Evermeet: Island of the Elves, Corellon Larethian threatens Vhaeraun, and Lolth, by proxy, that if they ever laid hands on Eilistraee, it'd be the last thing they do. Keeping this in mind, Corellon Larethian would be far more likely to involve. Of course, that's assuming that the authors and designers in question remember this little tidbit. Probably now thanks to 4E, "Evermeet " never happened! :confused:
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 01:43 AM	Probably now thanks to 4E, "Evermeet " never happened! :confused: -Yeah? I'd like to see that happen. :rolleyes:
Stigger 12-21-07, 03:04 AM	Well, as it was written from Danillo's perspective from what I know, it wouldn't be that hard to dismiss it really...
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 03:20 AM	Well, as it was written from Danillo's perspective from what I know, it wouldn't be that hard to dismiss it really... -Yes, written by him after obtaining lore on the island from, among others, Candlekeep and his Uncle, Khelben. While it might not be 100% fact, it's based in fact.
Stigger 12-21-07, 03:34 AM	Well, given Khelben's tendencies to obfuscate the past to accomplish his at times obtuse goals... and his known ability to get misinformation into even Candlekeep's libraries... and perhaps with some elven assistance... it might not be based on fact in anything but the absolute loosest sense.
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 03:43 AM	Well, given Khelben's tendencies to obfuscate the past to accomplish his at times obtuse goals... and his known ability to get misinformation into even Candlekeep's libraries... and perhaps with some elven assistance... it might not be based on fact in anything but the absolute loosest sense. -Many of the events have been confirmed in canon sources, such as Races of Faerūn, Realms of the Elves, the Swords and Songs series, and AGHotR, among other places. But, I'd find it hard to believe that one could somehow cancel out ALL of the different stories and whatnot in the novel, as Askani was alluding to.
Stigger 12-21-07, 04:40 AM	Depends on how right Markus is on his Merged Worlds theory...
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 04:47 AM	Depends on how right Markus is on his Merged Worlds theory... -Let's hope he's way off, or that the designers weren't thinking like he was (but, their refusal to correct the incorrect date of the Sundering, and the subsequent lore they've made up as a 'safeguard' does worry me).
Stigger 12-21-07, 04:52 AM	Never know... seems like its not where they're heading to me, but at this point I'm not really putting anything past them when it comes to buggering the Realms and its lore.
sfdragon 12-21-07, 05:00 AM	If thats the case then i blame the community with all the there are to many good drow in the realms and such and if it ends up that way in the realms then i will bad mouth the community as a whole, just wait and see. I just wont do it here
Zanan 12-21-07, 06:41 AM	Well, that's just the R&C listing, I gather? Who knows what's in store for the Realms. Maybe Lolth has simply cocooned Eilistraee and when there will be the oh so unexpected cry by the good drow - support amongst the gamers, she will miraculously (a la For Duty & Deity) be freed in a super 4E-Planescape adventure written for those new 26 to 30 level heroes ... right under the nose of the Spider Queen herself. About 1,67 years after the release of the FRCS and a new Faiths & Pantheons. WizOs, can I have a crystal-globe scrying smiley please?
GreenKnight 12-21-07, 07:30 AM	Lolth is now a deceitfull Eladrin Goddess of Shadow and Moon!:eek: She is still a SPIDER LOVER, so are her followers The Dark Elves! Wizards Presents: Races and Classes. Are you sure about this? Because they posted THIS (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20071221) article last night, where they say the following. Heian is an elf cleric of Sehanine, the god of the moon.
msatran 12-21-07, 07:59 AM	I think Bill Slaviscek just ruined my Christmas. Quote: Elves are a people of deeply felt but short-lived passions. They are easily moved to delighted laughter, blinding wrath, or mournful tears. They are inclined to impulsive behavior, and members of other races sometimes see elves as flighty or impetuous, but elves do not shirk responsibility or forget commitments. Thanks in part to their long life span, elves sometimes have difficulty taking certain matters as seriously as other races do, but when genuine threats arise, elves are fierce and reliable allies. Unquote So this grants a Wisdom bonus HOW?
Stigger 12-21-07, 08:02 AM	In otherwords, they don't get worked up over stupid crap, and only respond when a response is actually required. Otherwise, they simply enjoy life as best they can.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-21-07, 10:56 AM	In otherwords, they don't get worked up over stupid crap, and only respond when a response is actually required. Otherwise, they simply enjoy life as best they can. Agreed, enjoying the good things in life can be seen as a form of wisdom.:) Not saying I totally agree with the design for the new elves but the WIS bonus actually doesn't bother me.
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 12:14 PM	Are you sure about this? Because they posted THIS (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20071221) article last night, where they say the following. -That's Core, not the Forgotten Realms. Rich Baker has stated, multiple times, that many of the Demihuman deities were going to be "retconned" to be Human deities "in disguise", and he specifically mentioned Sehanine Moonbow. However, another way of looking at that would be that while we know the truth, the individuals on Faerūn do not, with the exception of a limited few- the "usual bunch". I think Bill Slaviscek just ruined my Christmas. Quote: Elves are a people of deeply felt but short-lived passions. They are easily moved to delighted laughter, blinding wrath, or mournful tears. They are inclined to impulsive behavior, and members of other races sometimes see elves as flighty or impetuous, but elves do not shirk responsibility or forget commitments. Thanks in part to their long life span, elves sometimes have difficulty taking certain matters as seriously as other races do, but when genuine threats arise, elves are fierce and reliable allies. -Don't forget: At the dawn of creation, elves and eladrin were a single race dwelling both in the Feywild and in the world, and passing freely between the two. -Last time I checked, Eladrin were a form of Celestial...:rolleyes: Elves mature at about the same rate as humans but show few effects of age past adulthood -Um, no. Just no. :rolleyes: Play an elf if you want to play a ranger, a rogue, or a cleric. -Kinda funny that wizard isn't included on this list. Yeah...:rolleyes: -Well, the only thing I can say is that since this is Core, it really can't be applied to the Forgotten Realms, like above. Just like Core Elves today don't apply to the Forgotten Realms.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-21-07, 12:24 PM	-Kinda funny that wizard isn't included on this list. Yeah...:rolleyes: That's for the "eladrin", remember?;)
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 12:32 PM	That's for the "eladrin", remember?;) -Hold on a second...:yuck: -Phew. Now, what was that? Oh yeah...:rolleyes:
AskaniPsion 12-22-07, 01:23 AM	Are you sure about this? Because they posted THIS (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20071221) article last night, where they say the following. Heian is an elf cleric of Sehanine, the god of the moon. Yes cause Sehanine has now had a sex change and has become a man - hence god and not goddess. ;)
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 01:33 AM	Yes cause Sehanine has now had a sex change and has become a man - hence god and not goddess. ;) -Whoops. Sehanine is very un-manly. I always imagine her like a China Doll.
AskaniPsion 12-22-07, 01:43 AM	-Whoops. Sehanine is very un-manly. I always imagine her like a China Doll. Well apparently Sehanine is now Lolth's SISTER!!!! :eek: Lolth is the God(dess) of the NEW Moon - no the absense of the moon while Sehanine is the Goddess of the Full Moon while Corellon is the God of the CRESCENT Moon. Hmm why no God of the HALF moon?? ;) Sehanine now has black hair!!??? Ugg I always liked it as silvery radiant hair. I think Eli is gonna die after reading this.
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 02:08 AM	-That's Core, not the Forgotten Realms. Rich Baker has stated, multiple times, that many of the Demihuman deities were going to be "retconned" to be Human deities "in disguise", and he specifically mentioned Sehanine Moonbow. However, another way of looking at that would be that while we know the truth, the individuals on Faerūn do not, with the exception of a limited few- the "usual bunch". That doesn't have anything at all to do with what I was talking about. Yes cause Sehanine has now had a sex change and has become a man - hence god and not goddess. ;) She's a god in the same way that a female elf who takes the sorcerer class is a sorcerer, and not a sorceress. Just because they call her a god and not a goddess doesn't mean she got a sex change.
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 02:11 AM	Well apparently Sehanine is now Lolth's SISTER!!!! :eek: -There's nothing that says that she can't be. I like that touch. Sehanine now has black hair!!??? Ugg I always liked it as silvery radiant hair. -Like I said, China Doll. ;) I think Eli is gonna die after reading this. -She might be already dead.
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 02:30 AM	Well apparently Sehanine is now Lolth's SISTER!!!! :eek: Why not? Was it ever said how Lolth came into being? I'm looking around in my books, but I don't see any origin for her. Sehanine, on the other hand, is both the wife and daughter to Corellon. If Lolth is also his daughter, then that'd make them sisters. Point is, if there's nothing to contradict it, then it's not a retcon. And personally, I like it. Sehanine's getting a nice boost in 4E (Combining her with Selune in the Realms I'm not to keen about, but I'm talking about core D&D, here).
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 02:56 AM	Was it ever said how Lolth came into being? I'm looking around in my books, but I don't see any origin for her. -Nope. There isn't. I like this, as it further establishes that Corellon is the "forefather" of all Elves, as well as the Seldarine. Many people often forget the Sehanine Moonbow is Corellon's consort, as well as daughter. Having Lolth serve the same dual role is a good thing, in my mind.
Zanan 12-22-07, 04:06 AM	-That's Core, not the Forgotten Realms. Rich Baker has stated, multiple times, that many of the Demihuman deities were going to be "retconned" to be Human deities "in disguise", and he specifically mentioned Sehanine Moonbow. However, another way of looking at that would be that while we know the truth, the individuals on Faerūn do not, with the exception of a limited few- the "usual bunch". Well, methinks they should actually start off with Draconic and Giant and Elven deities, before starting to make either of the aforementioned "human" deity aliases. It would be quite strange if a deity of a race that lived on Toril far longer than another race (elves vs humans) is actually a deity of the race that came in later. It might be feasible for some chosen few, but it can hardly be the norm. But as the Lolth / Sehanine scenario seems to show, we are in for a major shake-up anyways. No insult intended, but you really want to know the place where the stuff grew which they apparently smoked that day.
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 04:13 AM	Well, methinks they should actually start off with Draconic and Giant and Elven deities, before starting to make either of the aforementioned "human" deity aliases. It would be quite strange if a deity of a race that lived on Toril far longer than another race (elves vs humans) is actually a deity of the race that came in later. -Depends on the situation. A "godless" race could adopt a deity that arrived after them. But, yes, as a general rule, deities that came first should have preferential treatment, and get the nod. Of course, most of Realmspace's prehistory is muddled (as it should be, of course), so sometimes saying is easier than doing.
AskaniPsion 12-22-07, 11:48 AM	Sehanine's getting a nice boost in 4E (Combining her with Selune in the Realms I'm not to keen about, but I'm talking about core D&D, here). I am glad Sehanine is getting a boost - she always seemed overlooked in all the other editions. She is my favorite deity after Lolth. I always found Selune boring. So far I really like what they are doing with the drow and Lolth. But from what the article also says is that drow won't be a playable race until the FR book comes out. I was hoping they would be in the PHB.
Zanan 12-22-07, 01:23 PM	So far I really like what they are doing with the drow and Lolth. But from what the article also says is that drow won't be a playable race until the FR book comes out. I was hoping they would be in the PHB. You do what? Like as in "like"? There shouldn't be a LA+2 race in a basic core book, especially one that still is no real player race.
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 01:49 PM	There shouldn't be a LA+2 race in a basic core book, especially one that still is no real player race. They're getting rid of LA. As for Drow in the PHB, thank God they're not in. Do we really need four different varieties of Elves in the PHB (Eladrin, Elves, Half-Elves, and Drow)? Besides, it's only, what, a two month wait between the PHB and the FRCS?
johnkretzer 12-22-07, 02:19 PM	They're getting rid of LA. As for Drow in the PHB, thank God they're not in. Do we really need four different varieties of Elves in the PHB (Eladrin, Elves, Half-Elves, and Drow)? Besides, it's only, what, a two month wait between the PHB and the FRCS? Sure why not. Their would be more useful then Dragonborn or the the New Tiefling(now if it was the old Tiefling...), both of which I got no use for.
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 03:33 PM	Well, I got more use for the Tiefling and the Dragonborn then the Drow, so that's 2-1 for me. :P
johnkretzer 12-22-07, 04:27 PM	Well, I got more use for the Tiefling and the Dragonborn then the Drow, so that's 2-1 for me. :P Of course, but lets be honest here not everything is going to be useful to everone. I mean I expect to be something that I don't use...it has been that way since the start of my playing days. Also I dislike Dragonborn(as I disliked alot of creep of dragon things in 3.x) because it cheapens dragons for me.(Just my opinion) I alsao really dislike the new lore behind Tieflings(and the new stuff on Demons and Devls) so I am going to have to probaby heavily rewrite them if I convert to 4th.
AskaniPsion 12-22-07, 09:34 PM	You do what? Like as in "like"? There shouldn't be a LA+2 race in a basic core book, especially one that still is no real player race. I like that they are tying the elven races to the fey. I am also glad they got rid of the LA+2.
Selvarin 12-22-07, 11:48 PM	Well apparently Sehanine is now Lolth's SISTER!!!! :eek: Lolth is the God(dess) of the NEW Moon - no the absense of the moon while Sehanine is the Goddess of the Full Moon while Corellon is the God of the CRESCENT Moon. Hmm why no God of the HALF moon?? ;) Sehanine now has black hair!!??? Ugg I always liked it as silvery radiant hair. I think Eli is gonna die after reading this. OK, that is laaaaaaaaaaaame...the whole pantheon switcheroo. Hey, who's to say that Lolth really isn't Shar once the FRDT punts the new book to the gamers in August? *just looking for random outrage*
Selvarin 12-22-07, 11:51 PM	Well, methinks they should actually start off with Draconic and Giant and Elven deities, before starting to make either of the aforementioned "human" deity aliases. It would be quite strange if a deity of a race that lived on Toril far longer than another race (elves vs humans) is actually a deity of the race that came in later. It might be feasible for some chosen few, but it can hardly be the norm. But as the Lolth / Sehanine scenario seems to show, we are in for a major shake-up anyways. No insult intended, but you really want to know the place where the stuff grew which they apparently smoked that day. When humans are writing this stuff, apparently, it's easier to ignore that point of logic.
Selvarin 12-22-07, 11:55 PM	Btw, the +2 wisdom thing... Think of it this way: With age comes wisdom. As elder beings (of a sort), they have more experiences to draw from that will bolster their own intellect and instinct...and providing a stronger backing for their will.
Mr. Wilson 12-23-07, 01:09 AM	The perception skill is tied to wisdom stat. Elves (not Eladrin) are now the wild fey creatures of the forest who need to pay attention to their surroundings. They give non-elves a +1 bonus to perception check. Oh look, they have an innate racial bonus to perception and wisdom (tied to perception). Makes sense to me. And, about the Gods thing in 4.0, might I just point out that it's talking about the Core Pantheon and not the FR pantheon. I'm just saying some of the discussion going on in this thread may be taking a bit of a leap in faith, so to speak.
Selvarin 12-23-07, 01:26 AM	And, about the Gods thing in 4.0, might I just point out that it's talking about the Core Pantheon and not the FR pantheon. I'm just saying some of the discussion going on in this thread may be taking a bit of a leap in faith, so to speak. Fair enough. Too much to hope for, I guess. But it would be strange for Sehahine to be recognized in the Core D&D book and merely an alias in the Realms. Oh well. Corporate gaming. *shrugs* It would be interesting if they filled in a 'celestial' spot with Eilistraee and had her favored by half-elves of other kinds as well. In which case her appeal would be broadened beyond just non-evil dark elves. (I know she has worshippers of other stripes, just saying that it could be more promounced.)
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 01:37 AM	It would be interesting if they filled in a 'celestial' spot with Eilistraee and had her favored by half-elves of other kinds as well. In which case her appeal would be broadened beyond just non-evil dark elves. (I know she has worshippers of other stripes, just saying that it could be more promounced.) -I'd like to see Eilistraee be more of an "all purpose" deity of redemption, and not just (mainly) Drow.
Selvarin 12-23-07, 02:24 AM	Then (just as Lolth has) she'll reach out to the wider world, albeit through her own people and not some alias.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 02:47 AM	-Yep. If her focus was more towards 'redemption', period, I'd have no problem with that. There are people all over the place needing/seeking redemption.
Zanan 12-23-07, 04:41 AM	If (and it is a big "if") they do indeed get rid off LA, what do they to making it harder using former LA classes? Introducing XP-penalties? Weakening the race as such - as in: reducing the SR or something else even further? What happens to other LA races, such as demons or undead? Are there any samples in the R&C book ... like the tiefling?
Selvarin 12-23-07, 04:46 AM	If (and it is a big "if") they do indeed get rid off LA, what do they to making it harder using former LA classes? Introducing XP-penalties? Weakening the race as such - as in: reducing the SR or something else even further? What happens to other LA races, such as demons or undead? Are there any samples in the R&C book ... like the tiefling? From what I've read elsewhere (not in R&C because it isn't a 'crunch' book per se) ECL's and LA's are done. Gone. The abilities that certain races got at the beginning will be spread out as feat/options at certain levels. All of the races have been rebuilt from scratch, as ECL/LA's were kludges to begin with.
GreenKnight 12-23-07, 06:04 AM	If (and it is a big "if") they do indeed get rid off LA Not as big of an if as you might think. Check it out. http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=213814 In General: As you already know, all races can select racial feats that allow racial traits to develop and expand as the character rises in level. Level adjustments are gone, with all the new races largely equal in power. It is also mentioned that when drow finally appear in some future text, many of their powerful racial abilities (levitation, darkness, etc.) will be relegated to feats to balance them out.
Suin Bahhar 12-23-07, 09:51 AM	Basicly all drow start out as lesser drow and are able to choose darkness and levitation related feats such as those from DotU later on. They will not have a penalty to stats though and get +2 dex and +2 cha. I really wonder how humans have been balanced with that at first level...
AskaniPsion 12-23-07, 10:50 AM	I really wonder how humans have been balanced with that at first level... Yeah nothing as really been said about humans. I am guessing they get extra feats or maybe can get bonuses to stats....dunno
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 11:15 AM	I really wonder how humans have been balanced with that at first level... -I was wondering the same thing. I am guessing they get extra feats or maybe can get bonuses to stats....dunno -I like that concept for Humans, extra points to put into your ability scores. That is, with addition to extra skill points and the extra feat and all. -I don't like all this equality, though. Some races are just more powerful than others. That's just how it goes.
Zanan 12-23-07, 12:00 PM	Basicly all drow start out as lesser drow and are able to choose darkness and levitation related feats such as those from DotU later on. They will not have a penalty to stats though and get +2 dex and +2 cha. I really wonder how humans have been balanced with that at first level... Did they somehow managed to get rid of the age puzzle as well? Or do drow who become players / NPC miraculously get all the goodies while the average normal drow who stays at home and just ages get nothing, SR and all? :D
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:04 PM	-I don't like all this equality, though. Some races are just more powerful than others. That's just how it goes. Yep. But 3E didn't feel that way, and it seems 4E is only extending that further.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:10 PM	Yep. But 3E didn't feel that way, and it seems 4E is only extending that further. -Well, 3e did with Level Adjustments, for more "exotic" races. Not for the "Core" races.
18DELTA 12-23-07, 01:00 PM	-I don't like all this equality, though. Some races are just more powerful than others. That's just how it goes. -Not anymore.;) :P This is 4E, where are Races and Classes are created equal!:cloud9:
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 01:02 PM	-I just hope it's never to the extent where Balors = Humans.
Stigger 12-23-07, 02:12 PM	Can't stand LA stuff... I just ignore it for the most part. It's like saying its not fair that a Garou is more powerful than the poor schmuck sleeper down the street...
Green Elven Vampire 12-23-07, 03:43 PM	I tend to view it as something to be ignored in my campaigns... Precisely what I'm doing in my campaign. 4ED blows :censored:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-23-07, 05:14 PM	Sehanine now has black hair!!??? Ugg I always liked it as silvery radiant hair. I like the idea of a dark-haired Sehanine, actually.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-23-07, 05:17 PM	-I just hope it's never to the extent where Balors = Humans. Or Gods = Humans...
Zanan 12-23-07, 05:49 PM	Can't stand LA stuff... I just ignore it for the most part. It's like saying its not fair that a Garou is more powerful than the poor schmuck sleeper down the street... So what would you say if a player in your low level group wants to start with a succubus? Since you apparently chucked LA / ECL, no problem, right? There should be an easy way to balance certain abilities / features / specials / spell like stuff and all. LA is a decent enough, if not perfect way doing this. And simply saying: "impossible, you can't be a drow, succubus, medusa" is no answer here. But folks, we're moving off topic.
Stigger 12-23-07, 07:15 PM	Well, first off none of my players would ever try to pull that... not on me, they might try that, but on each other. I let them work out the group dynamics before we even start, so they have more input and final say over who gets to play what than I do. If everyone's cool with someone (or everyone for that matter) playing a powerful race, I can work with that. Not around mind you, but with. Its not really a question of balancing out stuff for me, my players do that for me to begin with. Surprisingly, they limit themselves more than I ever would limit them on my own, so it works out pretty well in the end. But yes, very off topic, so moving right along, how about those zany drow deities? :D
GreenKnight 12-24-07, 06:59 AM	Or Gods = Humans... Balors and Gods don't tend to be PC races, so I wouldn't worry about it.:P
Selvarin 12-24-07, 01:28 PM	Can't stand LA stuff... I just ignore it for the most part. It's like saying its not fair that a Garou is more powerful than the poor schmuck sleeper down the street... Indeed. Because it was just another thing to make things 'fairer' for the rest of the party...which only made sense (to me anyway) if the party includes one dude/dudette who's choosing character or monster race based on power. Always wanted to play a drow vampire but that LA stuff...ouch...I must be too lawful since I worry about something that I'd usually toss. OK, on-topic. The new elven myth story concerning Corellon, Sehahine, and Lolth is interesting...for the core system, that is.
AskaniPsion 12-24-07, 05:00 PM	OK, on-topic. The new elven myth story concerning Corellon, Sehahine, and Lolth is interesting...for the core system, that is. Yeah I like. At first it was a shock having Sehanine have black hair but as someone said it was very "porcelain doll" like and it would make sense since she is the exact opposite of Lolth so I am okay with it now. I wonder though if Lolth will even be in the Demonwebs for 4E core..maybe she was never twisted into a demon spider. I also hope they make her chosen weapon a whip like 3.5 Core. I wonder if she will still use Yochols? I love that she was an Eladrin Goddess who is worshipped by dark fey now :D
Selvarin 12-24-07, 07:22 PM	If Lolth is still known as the Demon Queen of Spiders then her realm should still be known as the Demonweb Pits. No great change there unless they turn part (or all) of it into a red-lit forest full of webs and chasms. As for the yochlols, definitely. Not sure if I like the Sehahine with dark hair even if it adds to the opposite look vs. Lolth. In some ways I like the direction that Lolth is going, in this sense. She's more approachable for non-drow elves. With previous versions she would accept those other than drow but they were third class at best. It feels a little less exclusive (the 4e version's "vibe"). Could be that Sehahine survives in 4e but that she is just a name in FR. I'd like it better if the situation was Corellon w/ Sehahine as consort and Lolth as the spoiler, with Eilistraee in the middle of a moral tug-of-war (much as her people are) but choosing to stay independent of all for her own sanity's sake. But there can only be two moon goddesses and I don't see Selune being jettisoned... Btw: Without a doubt, the aspirations of the drow echo the dreams and schemes of Lolth, the Spider Queen. In her Abyssal domain of the Demonweb Pits, she sits and waits, plotting the day when she can snare her sister and Corellon in her webs and finish the work she started at the dawn of time. From the article.
GothicDan 12-25-07, 12:16 AM	Balors and Gods don't tend to be PC races, so I wouldn't worry about it. I've played an Abyssal Lord and a Tulani Noble. ;)
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 01:48 AM	Or Gods = Humans... -Unfortunatley, they've hinted that the seperation between deities and mortals is going to get smaller. Ultimatley, I don't know how much this really will effect the Realms. -On one hand, if Tommy, Vinny, Joey and Jenny want to go running in their campaign killing Cyric, Torm and Finder Wyvernspur, whatever. It's their call. Who really cares? On the other hand, if the future FR designers/authors do this as well...But, there is precident in the Realms that 'X', 'Y' and 'Z' needs to be done to kill a deity. So, it all depends on whether or not future designers/authors want to stick to precident or not. Killing deities in the Realms does happen, but it's never easy. At first it was a shock having Sehanine have black hair but as someone said it was very "porcelain doll" like and it would make sense since she is the exact opposite of Lolth so I am okay with it now. -That was me. I'm a little angered, though, because I made up my own Snow Elven deity who was very much porceline doll-like: Kythaela Sigess. She very much like those Oriental snow demons, that look like attractive Oriental women. Can't remember what they are called...
Selvarin 12-25-07, 01:54 AM	Yuki on-na. Perhaps they're the ones you speak of?
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 02:01 AM	Yuki on-na. Perhaps they're the ones you speak of? -Yeah, yeah. Just checked Oriental Adventures to make sure.
AskaniPsion 12-25-07, 12:37 PM	So I wonder if the drow are still going to be underground since they are breaking through the faerzress in FR. I really wish we didn't have to wait for the 3rd book in "Lady Penitent" series
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-25-07, 01:33 PM	-Unfortunatley, they've hinted that the seperation between deities and mortals is going to get smaller. Yeah, I know. *LOL* -On one hand, if Tommy, Vinny, Joey and Jenny want to go running in their campaign killing Cyric, Torm and Finder Wyvernspur, whatever. It's their call. Who really cares? On the other hand, if the future FR designers/authors do this as well...But, there is precident in the Realms that 'X', 'Y' and 'Z' needs to be done to kill a deity. So, it all depends on whether or not future designers/authors want to stick to precident or not. Killing deities in the Realms does happen, but it's never easy. Agreed, on all points. I don't care what people do in their personal campaigns. But when rampant god-killing becomes a part of the official timeline...oh wait, nevermind--it already is at this point.:rolleyes: In fact, that statement was perfectly on topic!
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 03:22 PM	So I wonder if the drow are still going to be underground since they are breaking through the faerzress in FR. -Look for CG Drow Ranger settlements, coming to a Realms near you in summer 2008! Agreed, on all points. I don't care what people do in their personal campaigns. But when rampant god-killing becomes a part of the official timeline...oh wait, nevermind--it already is at this point.:rolleyes: In fact, that statement was perfectly on topic! -Ugh, you're right...:(
Fire_Wraith 12-25-07, 05:29 PM	-Look for CG Drow Ranger settlements, coming to a Realms near you in summer 2008! Regional Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting, or perhaps Weapon Focus: Scimitar? :P
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 06:39 PM	Regional Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting, or perhaps Weapon Focus: Scimitar? :P -Well, we need to make sure that we don't hurt anybody's feelings, and make Fighters just as powerful as Wizards and Clerics. So, both! -I might give them the innate use of the spell Power Word: Angst as well.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 12-25-07, 11:23 PM	-Well, we need to make sure that we don't hurt anybody's feelings, and make Fighters just as powerful as Wizards and Clerics. So, both! Yes, the new colony will be frontier Do Urden, land of half-drow and wizard haters. Oh and Don't forget it's the center of Miliki worship (Because where else is she seriously a patron diety?).
AskaniPsion 12-25-07, 11:36 PM	-Look for CG Drow Ranger settlements, coming to a Realms near you in summer 2008! ( Ugg I hope not. I want EVIL based drow living on the surface...a return to their former glory complete with temples of Lolth and drow warlocks!! :evillaugh :schemes:
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 11:43 PM	Ugg I hope not. I want EVIL based drow living on the surface...a return to their former glory complete with temples of Lolth and drow warlocks!! :evillaugh :schemes: -Nope. This is the future! :D
Fire_Wraith 12-26-07, 12:59 AM	Our extensive research on anecdotal evidence tells us that the fans want lots and lots of opportunities to play Drizzt clones. One million dorky teenage fanboys can't be wrong. :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 01:08 AM	-What was that quote someone used? Millions of flies say that crap tastes good, so it must? Something like that. :)
Zanan 12-26-07, 04:21 AM	-What was that quote someone used? Millions of flies say that crap tastes good, so it must? Something like that. :) Actually, it is the quote Fabius Maximus uses on these boards ... and he's one of my players! :cool:
Stigger 12-26-07, 04:24 AM	Who cares about right and wrong when there's money involved? :P
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 04:50 AM	Actually, it is the quote Fabius Maximus uses on these boards ... and he's one of my players! :cool: -There you go! -Is it...I don't know the word to describe it..."cool", "interesting" to have players who are also active members of the boards? Who cares about right and wrong when there's money involved? :P -That's the spirit!
Zanan 12-26-07, 05:49 PM	-There you go! -Is it...I don't know the word to describe it..."cool", "interesting" to have players who are also active members of the boards? Keep in mind the preceeding posts ... Fire_Wraith Our extensive research on anecdotal evidence tells us that the fans want lots and lots of opportunities to play Drizzt clones. One million dorky teenage fanboys can't be wrong. Lord Karsus -What was that quote someone used? Millions of flies say that crap tastes good, so it must? Something like that. ... and then me being proud of having someone in the group who has seen the underlying "truth" about some things (and not just that one drow) and his irony / sarcasm is being used at the right moment and time hereabouts. Nothing special in that.
AskaniPsion 12-26-07, 06:17 PM	Our extensive research on anecdotal evidence tells us that the fans want lots and lots of opportunities to play Drizzt clones. One million dorky teenage fanboys can't be wrong. :rolleyes: As much as I don't like Drizzt I did page through the comic adapted version of the Drizzt novels today. I missed them when they were individual issues and this was the trade version. Nice to see the stories in illustrated form. But $29.99 for only 4 issues!! Ouch! Little too pricey for my tastes.
Selvarin 12-27-07, 01:05 AM	The collected TPB's themselves are only $14.95. Hmmm...
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 01:32 AM	-Trade Paperbacks/Compilations are normally cheaper than individual issues/books.
Selvarin 12-27-07, 02:18 AM	I know. And the last Drizzt comic I checked (#1 of The Halfling's Gem) was $5.50. 48 pages vs. 32. For $22 retail total for 1-4. Still pricey, but not quite $30. TPB's are much better though. Just bought Batman: Vampire as a pre-Christmas treat. Gives me wicked thoughts.
AskaniPsion 12-27-07, 07:06 AM	The collected TPB's themselves are only $14.95. Hmmm... This was a hard cover comic book version of the "Exile" novel - the price on the back said $29.99.
GreenKnight 12-27-07, 07:54 AM	I preordered the following from DCBS the other day. http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/278025/2261998DD1.jpg http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/278025/2261999DD2.jpg I'm gonna see about getting the TPB's of the Drizzt adaptations, but first I want to read the books. Been meaning to read them, eventually, so now's a good time as any. Just bought Batman: Vampire as a pre-Christmas treat. Gives me wicked thoughts. I got it from DCBS on monday. Haven't read it, yet, but man. I flipped through it as soon as I got it and there's one scene where a vampire bites some poor schmuck on his face and then rips off part of his face. Holy crap!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-27-07, 09:42 AM	That picture of Drizzt crawling is hilarious. :rofl:
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 01:58 PM	I'm gonna see about getting the TPB's of the Drizzt adaptations, but first I want to read the books. Been meaning to read them, eventually, so now's a good time as any. -For comics, they are actaully very close to the original story. In otherwords, they don't leave out many details.
GreenKnight 12-27-07, 02:12 PM	Glad to hear that. I'm always iffy on comic adaptations, but these looked nice, so I thought I'd check them out. But if they're a good adaptation of the novels, then even better. Still, I'm gonna read the novels first, though. Only question is, what should I start with? Icewind Dale Trilogy or Dark Elf Trilogy? Hmm...
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 02:45 PM	Still, I'm gonna read the novels first, though. Only question is, what should I start with? Icewind Dale Trilogy or Dark Elf Trilogy? Hmm... -I started with Icewind Dale, and then Dark Elf. Chronologically, as I'm sure you know, Dark Elf comes before Icewind Dale. I prefered Dark Elf to Icewind Dale, so I'd recommend it first. :)
GreenKnight 12-27-07, 03:49 PM	Yeah, it's like introducing someone to Star Wars for the first time. Do you show them Eps 4-6 first, or 1-3? 4-6 were made first, and that's how the world was introduced to Star Wars, but chronologically speaking, it should be last, not first. But then again, that's an easy one to answer. You show them 4-6 first, cause the new trilogy sucks. :P Not so simple with the Drizzt books, though, as I hear both the Icewind Dale Trilogy and The Dark Elf Trilogy are good. Although I gotta say, I'm interested in reading Icewind Dale first if for no other reason then to be introduced to Drizzt the way he was introduced to the world. A supporting character, and not the big cheese. That oughta be interesting. Especially to see if I can spot the reason why Drizzt ended up blowing up into the character he is, today.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 03:57 PM	Yeah, it's like introducing someone to Star Wars for the first time. Do you show them Eps 4-6 first, or 1-3? 4-6 were made first, and that's how the world was introduced to Star Wars, but chronologically speaking, it should be last, not first. But then again, that's an easy one to answer. You show them 4-6 first, cause the new trilogy sucks. :P -I'd recommend someone seeing it the chronological way, actually. All of the 'surprises' from Episodes IV through VI are pop culture knowledge. Everyone knows that Darth Vader is Luke's father. Everyone knows that the Death Star blows up. Everyone knows who Yoda is. For a new viewer, I think they get the benefit of everything by watching it chronologically. I mean, everyone already knows Anakin is going to become Darth Vader, is going to have children (Luke and Leia), and so on. That's one of the reasons why, even though being the die hard Star Wars fan that I am, the Original Trilogy isn't so "near and dear" to my heart. Even before I really got into Star Wars, and everything, I knew "Luke, I am your father", etc.
AskaniPsion 12-27-07, 05:56 PM	-For comics, they are actaully very close to the original story. In otherwords, they don't leave out many details. Well except for the ritual sacrifices to Lolth :eek: .....the smostly nude drow priestesses...the spiders ripping into peoples' flesh :P ......besides that yes they are pretty accurate :D I want the one where Lolth comes to Menzo during the Time Of Troubles....will be interesting how they draw her. :D
Stigger 12-27-07, 07:01 PM	Mostly nude drow priestesses... might have to take a look at a few of those afterall...
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 11:13 PM	Well except for the ritual sacrifices to Lolth :eek: .....the smostly nude drow priestesses...the spiders ripping into peoples' flesh :P ......besides that yes they are pretty accurate :D I want the one where Lolth comes to Menzo during the Time Of Troubles....will be interesting how they draw her. :D -The priestess during the Graduation scene is pretty scantily clad. And, the sacrifice of Zaknafein was clearly a ritual sacrifice to Lolth. No spiders ripping in flesh, though.
Alediran 12-28-07, 08:22 AM	Nude priestess..... To bad the comic isn't distributed here.
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 08:25 AM	Nude priestess..... To bad the comic isn't distributed here. -I didn't say they were nude. They were just, at points, scantily clad. Wearing see-though spider silk robes that are hanging open and everything, with well placed word bubbles, and random scenery, such and smoke or whathaveyou.
Alediran 12-28-07, 08:26 AM	-I didn't say they were nude. They were just, at points, scantily clad. Wearing see-though spider silk robes that are hanging open and everything, with well placed word bubbles, and random scenery, such and smoke or whathaveyou. If they can be seen even when dressed they are naked, I don't think a see-through counts as dressing and I'm sure any cop would arrest somebody who dressed like that in public.
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 08:37 AM	If they can be seen even when dressed they are naked, I don't think a see-through counts as dressing and I'm sure any cop would arrest somebody who dressed like that in public. -Or at least make her cover up a little more. Of course, a priestess of Lolth wouldn't like that at all, and she's have a little "talk" with said cop, especially if he was a male!
Selvarin 12-28-07, 10:47 AM	If you wait long enough and check through someplace like pricegrabber (or Mile High Comics), or Amazon resellers, etc., you ought to find one in HC for at least 30% off. Add a few more things for free shipping if necessary. As for Star Wars... :rolleyes: ...I wouldn't subject my enemies to episodes 1-3.
GreenKnight 12-28-07, 10:57 AM	I haven't seen Revenge of the Sith, yet, but Attack of the Clones was pretty good. But that's assuming one watches it the way I watch it. With the DVD control in hand, thumb hovering over the skip button, ready to jump right past an Anakin/Padme scene at a moments notice. I barely even remember those scenes, anymore.
GothicDan 12-28-07, 11:52 AM	Hayden Christianson is good for nothing but being somewhat cute. Both he and what's her face that played Padme were abominable actors. Then again, the dialog didn't give them much they could do, did it?
GreenKnight 12-28-07, 12:03 PM	True enough about the dialogue. Lucas is great at conceiving ideas for the Star Wars Universe, as well as creating special effects. But doing actual writing, with dialogue, and directing? Not so much. It isn't a coincidence that the best Star Wars movie, The Empire Strikes Back, was written and directed by someone else (Lucas came up with the story, but someone else did the screenplay) That trilogy could've been amazing if he were capable of recognizing his own limitations and passing those duties off to more capable people. The damnable tragedy of it is that he collected a pretty amazing cast for these movies. Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, Samuel L. Jackson, Cristopher Lee, etc. Actors of that calibre deserve better writing then what they got. The best writers in the world, though, couldn't have saved Hayden what's-his-face. For all the solid casting, Lucas fell down flat when it came to casting Anakin in all three movies. All-in-all, that trilogy had immense potential which it failed to live up to. What a waste.
GothicDan 12-28-07, 12:05 PM	I want to be Christopher Lee's platonic partner. LOVE him.
GreenKnight 12-28-07, 12:16 PM	The man's an amazing actor, but holy crap, has he done a lot of garbage! But anyway, I suggest checking out The Three Musketeers and The Four Musketeers. Those're two great movies with Christopher Lee in them. Not to mention The Last Unicorn. Damn, I really wish they'd get on with the live-action version. It's not as if Christopher Lee and Angela Lansbury are getting any younger!
GothicDan 12-28-07, 12:18 PM	I've never been interested in the Musketeers, but if Lee was in them.. I'll consider them. I love the Last Unicorn almost as much as Flight of Dragons. :)
GreenKnight 12-28-07, 12:39 PM	I've never been interested in the Musketeers, but if Lee was in them.. I'll consider them. They're the 1973/1974 versions. Check them out. They're absolutely amazing, not to mention endlessly hilarious. And to top it off, they've got a fantastic cast. Christopher Lee played Rochefort while Faye Dunaway played Milady. You also had Oliver Reed as Athos, Michael York as D'Artagnan, Charlton Heston as Cardinal Richelieu, and Raquel Welch as Constance. I love the Last Unicorn almost as much as Flight of Dragons. :) Yeah, I loved The Last Unicorn, too. :) Damn, Amalthea was hot. :D
Alediran 12-28-07, 12:50 PM	Lee appeared in a scene of the Magisterium in the Golden Compass. He's always good at making the sinister looking villain.
GothicDan 12-28-07, 12:54 PM	I was told not to see the Golden Compass. Granted, it was by someone who loved the books.
Alediran 12-28-07, 12:56 PM	I was told not to see the Golden Compass. Granted, it was by someone who loved the books. Because it's a fact that you need to see first the movie and then read the book. For me it was like merging Sons of Ether (there are a couple etherite-looking machines) and more ancient magic traditions of Mage. It could be perfectly considered as an astral realm alternative to earth where their avatars are manifested always. Instead of the Technocracy rulling, it was the Cabal of Pure Thought.
GothicDan 12-28-07, 01:02 PM	I never minded the Technocrats nearly as much as others... I think they had some good ideas. That's only appropriate, given as they split off from the Hermetics, of course. Oh, I miss playing Mage online. :(
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 01:13 PM	...Ewan McGregor... -He basically carried Episode II and Episode III on his back. If not for him, who knows what could have been? -Christopher Lee was also in the recent remake of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory- don't ask, girlfriend dragged me to see it. He was Willy Wonka's evil dentist father, apparently...
GothicDan 12-28-07, 01:26 PM	He was. I sort of respect Lee for not 'shying' away from less 'famous' roles.
Stigger 12-28-07, 02:17 PM	Personally, I'm finding myself identifying more with the technocracy as I get older... apart from the whole big brother thing at least. Take that and the Syndicate SPD away and you have a great bunch of guys. :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-28-07, 03:41 PM	I was told not to see the Golden Compass. Granted, it was by someone who loved the books. Why'd they say that? I saw it and enjoyed it, although it was a little too open-ended. Granted, it's part of a trilogy, but there's no guarantee there will be movie sequels, and I would have liked more resolution anyway.
Alediran 12-28-07, 03:41 PM	Personally, I'm finding myself identifying more with the technocracy as I get older... apart from the whole big brother thing at least. Take that and the Syndicate SPD away and you have a great bunch of guys. :D That's why your typical idealist technocrat could work with the traditions. BTW, I made some tests and the nWoD rules can be perfectly used in the oWoD mage, just take out the fluff/crunch about the towers and you are ready. Asign Fate for the Euthanatos and Death for the Hollow Ones and that's it. oWoD Mage rotes can be quickly adapted to the new casting system.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-28-07, 03:46 PM	-Christopher Lee was also in the recent remake of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory- don't ask, girlfriend dragged me to see it. He was Willy Wonka's evil dentist father, apparently... He wasn't evil, so much as pushy and overprotective.;) I thought Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was great! I enjoyed Johnny Depp's character in that (and I loved his more recent movie by the same director, Tim Burton...Sweeney Todd!).
Zanan 12-28-07, 04:22 PM	Any WizO about? :nonono:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-28-07, 04:37 PM	Any WizO about? :nonono: Because of off-topicness? Sorry.
Stigger 12-28-07, 05:18 PM	I took a look at the NWoD stuff this weekend at the LGS... and I'm pretty sure I still prefer the OWoD ruleset, particularly where magic is concerned. Though by the by, I'd probably give the Hollowers Fate and the Euthanatos Death... the whole Euthan part of their name kinda points in that direction, along with the whole Good Death bit of theirs. Though on a semi-on topic point, I have to admit I'm finding the whole Drow focus that seems to be cropping up in novels a bit disconcerting. Drizzt was bad enough, but now we have all these other drow popping up and it's leaving a bitter taste in my mouth for some reason. Not even going to go into the crap about Eiliastraee going neutral and how much that's bothering me... guess its a case of familiarity breeding contempt, for me anyway.
AskaniPsion 12-28-07, 06:10 PM	He was. I sort of respect Lee for not 'shying' away from less 'famous' roles. I LOVE Christopher Lee! Great character actor....like Ian McKellan. Lee was AWESOME as Saruman in LOTR as MCKellan was awesome as Gandalf. I actually liked Episode 3 the best out of all 6 movies....but then again Palpatine is my favorite character.....never cared for Vader or Fett. Palpatine was great in Episode 3. Hayden Christianson is a terrible actor....though he did have to work with VERY bad dialogue in his defense but he is so wooden like Ben Affleck was in Daredevil. I want a drow priestess action figure with whip action arm - complete with a spider pet. :D I love female drow! The only drow female figure I have found was from Everquest but you can't move anything on her body except the arms in VERY limited poses - up and down.
Lord Karsus 12-29-07, 01:13 AM	-Oh, get over yourself...
Stigger 12-29-07, 02:10 AM	Lost me completely there LK...
GothicDan 12-29-07, 10:22 AM	LK was a bit drunk.
Lord Karsus 12-29-07, 10:32 AM	-No, I wasn't. I've never gotten drunk, actually. The one time I thought I was, I was fully coherent, just a little dizzy. My sister told me I was buzzed, not drunk. So much for that. -Anyway, three people just posted in the way of me, I guess ruining my statement.
GothicDan 12-29-07, 10:49 AM	I've only gotten drunken once. It was actually really fun, but that was because I got drunk with 3 of my best friends, rather than engaging in the massive orgy of grinding, sweating bodies in the downstairs of the house.
Lord Karsus 12-29-07, 12:07 PM	I've only gotten drunken once. It was actually really fun, but that was because I got drunk with 3 of my best friends, rather than engaging in the massive orgy of grinding, sweating bodies in the downstairs of the house. -Uh...Nice imagery. Don't do it again.
18DELTA 12-29-07, 12:31 PM	I want a drow priestess action figure with whip action arm - complete with a spider pet. :D I love female drow! So do I, so do I!!!:drool: :lop: :drool: :bow: :lop: :drool: :D Yeah I know I am one sick puppy!!!:)
Phelf_Der_Zemit 12-29-07, 12:55 PM	True. Very True.
18DELTA 12-30-07, 12:31 PM	True. Very True. :bow: :bow: :rimshot: :tiphat: :D
sfdragon 12-30-07, 02:16 PM	I suppose you will be here all week?
Alediran 12-30-07, 04:22 PM	I don't have vacations until the end of the next year.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 12-31-07, 04:28 PM	But do tip your waitresses and try the viel.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 04:51 PM	-I hope they don't try to shoehorn all of that supposed Core Lolth stuff into the Realms.
Selvarin 12-31-07, 05:55 PM	-I hope they don't try to shoehorn all of that supposed Core Lolth stuff into the Realms. Have they ever backed away from ticking us all off? Not one instance so far.
Arbourean 12-31-07, 10:58 PM	It would be a sweet irony if Eilistraee fells Lolth with a bow and arrow, since it was Araushnee's magics that forced Eilistraee's arrow to strike Corellon Larethian.
Selvarin 12-31-07, 11:26 PM	If that were to bring back her 'huntress' aspect more clearly. If, in a way, Eilistraee was denying a part of herself by refusing to use a bow.
Zanan 01-01-08, 07:27 AM	It would be a sweet irony if Eilistraee fells Lolth with a bow and arrow, since it was Araushnee's magics that forced Eilistraee's arrow to strike Corellon Larethian. Well, that would mean that Eilistraee can strike at Lolth at all. Hardly a reasonable possibility ... and if one arrow actually manages to slay a greater deity (no matter which), I'd personally call in an inquisition upon that designer and/or author, using the vilest medieval Spanish instruments. Selvetarm's end was bad enough from a gamers' perspective - IMHO.
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 12:38 PM	Well, that would mean that Eilistraee can strike at Lolth at all. Hardly a reasonable possibility ... and if one arrow actually manages to slay a greater deity (no matter which), I'd personally call in an inquisition upon that designer and/or author, using the vilest medieval Spanish instruments. Selvetarm's end was bad enough from a gamers' perspective - IMHO. -When all is said and done, who knows what exactly Eilistraee's "power level" will be. And, if there were plot reasons for such an arrow to exist (+1 Arrow of Lolth Slaying)...I'm not saying I condone any of that, but...
Zanan 01-01-08, 04:52 PM	-When all is said and done, who knows what exactly Eilistraee's "power level" will be. And, if there were plot reasons for such an arrow to exist (+1 Arrow of Lolth Slaying)...I'm not saying I condone any of that, but... Don't (as in DO NOT!) start giving such horrific hints to people who might have a say in events to come. People like designers and all.
Selvarin 01-01-08, 04:58 PM	I'd agree in all cases except this... Although... Killing off Lolth and making her an alias for Shar would be just ratty enough for a suit to consider...it would probably allow for an extra ad to be placed in the new FR guidebook. ;)
AskaniPsion 01-01-08, 05:15 PM	I'd agree in all cases except this... Although... Killing off Lolth and making her an alias for Shar would be just ratty enough for a suit to consider...it would probably allow for an extra ad to be placed in the new FR guidebook. ;) If anything Lolth should beat down Shar...with the Shadow Weave's destruction, I wouldn't be surprised if Shar has a reduction in power.
Selvarin 01-01-08, 05:24 PM	Since when did logic rule these decisions? Shar is the favored goth-queen of WotC. At best they'd let the two reach a stalemate and release a 6-novel story about it. ;) Besides, with Mystra's death part of the essence that created her will (or should) revert back to Shar, just as Selune's portion will/should revert back to her.
Arbourean 01-01-08, 05:38 PM	Well, that would mean that Eilistraee can strike at Lolth at all. Hardly a reasonable possibility ... and if one arrow actually manages to slay a greater deity (no matter which), I'd personally call in an inquisition upon that designer and/or author, using the vilest medieval Spanish instruments. Selvetarm's end was bad enough from a gamers' perspective - IMHO. Well, this series has thrown that rule out the window, pretty much. Selvatarm: Killed by a mortal. (Feasible) Vhaeraun: Death by stupidity. (One I despise the most, not the resulting merger, but that he rushed to his doom when he's smart enough to know that invading her realm would result in his immediate destruction.) Kiaransalee: Killed by deus ex machina. (I really really really hate how they got rid of her. All it takes is a powered up spell of forgetfulness? The only good thing about the spellplague is if it rids the Realms of idiotic plot devices such as "elven high magic" or whatever everyone wants to call it.)
Selvarin 01-01-08, 05:43 PM	Selvetarm was set up/allowed to die by Lolth. The 'remade' Crescent Blade is likely an aspect/avatar of Lolth, much as Godslayer was Mask in disguise.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-01-08, 06:49 PM	I'm still suprised that no Mortals went to godhood after the deaths, isn't that a rule some where.
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 08:11 PM	Don't (as in DO NOT!) start giving such horrific hints to people who might have a say in events to come. People like designers and all. -Hey, I didn't say I supported it. -And, Zanan, if "they" actually payed attention to the forums, and read things, and what not, it would not have taken Rich Baker until 2006 to have come into contact with Brian's PDF version of AGHotR, which was first released...2004 or so?
Zanan 01-02-08, 06:27 AM	Selvetarm was set up/allowed to die by Lolth. The 'remade' Crescent Blade is likely an aspect/avatar of Lolth, much as Godslayer was Mask in disguise. "By default", Mrs. Cavatina - in a grappled situations as she was - had to bend her body (caught inbetween the fangs of a deity (SIC! - who hand no hands to deal with someone, of course) about and had to roll a natural 20 to behead Selvetarm with her blade (which might ignore Divine DR). After that, she'd had to hit him again (to confirm the critical hit), i.e. a being having a AC of 50+. We know her levels from a book (RttRoUM I think, Ftr 8 / Clr 14 or the like) and she did not cast that many spells beforehand either. So ... in essence, in game terms (and that is what the poster might address here), Tymora had a very broad grin on her face that day. While I am hesitant to simply say that the "artifact" helped her here, I have to admit that in recent books certain artifacts have become pretty powerful again, namely the sword that star elven heroine Kiril wields (Darkvision / Stardeep).
Stigger 01-02-08, 06:41 AM	One would hope artifacts would be relatively powerful to begin with actually... too many of them seem to have been a bit nerfed of late. Kinda depressing in some respects.
Selvarin 01-02-08, 01:44 PM	It's easy to roll perfect 20's if you're a character in a book. ;) And you know book world doesn't function the same as game world. But really...Cavatina on Lolth's turf, being handed/tossed a 'holy weapon' of Eilistraee's faith which had been destroyed in the WotSQ finale and somehow recreated...the same one which taunts her mentally now that it's Qilue's. Not sure if this thought came up, what if Eilistraee wins but as part of the deal she has to take on Lolth's psyche, followers, etc...? Thus a poison pill, she refuses and they start another game instead, rather than Eilistraee become her mother in all but name.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-02-08, 03:20 PM	I'm still suprised that no Mortals went to godhood after the deaths, isn't that a rule some where. Nope. Killing a deity does not mean you will replace that deity and/or gain his power.
AskaniPsion 01-02-08, 03:36 PM	Shar is the favored goth-queen of WotC. Yeah funny thing is pre 3.5, Shar was hardly mentioned ever then suddenly she is everything in the Realms. Now she seems to be the most powerful diety in the Realms now that Mystra is dead.
GothicDan 01-02-08, 04:26 PM	Shar was ALWAYS incredibly, scarily powerful. She just wasn't so blatant about her plans, and tried to play her cards for the 'long term.' The times when she obviously slipped up typically were when she was overcome with her desire for vengeance against Selune, now and then.
Selvarin 01-02-08, 04:33 PM	Yep, but it's like every plot is Shar-driven. Bane's starting to not feel as loved by WotC because of it, I'm sure of it. :P As if there's only one evil deity capable of anything. Of course, when they're done cutting there may as well. :rolleyes:
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 05:09 PM	So....who gets Selvetarm and Kiaransalee's portfolios and powers???
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-02-08, 08:02 PM	As per the novels, Lolth absorbed Selvetarm's church (and presumably his portfolios). As for Kiaransalee--I don't think it was stated yet.
Selvarin 01-02-08, 08:08 PM	If her former priestesses could remember a thing, they'd probably throw in with Lolth (if only for the power, otherwise...). But Eilistraee had her people slay the ones they could find at the main HQ. Presumably some survive elsewhere. But it's largely a moot point by now.
GreenKnight 01-02-08, 08:19 PM	Nope. Killing a deity does not mean you will replace that deity and/or gain his power. Yeah, this ain't Highlander. *puts on a Queen CD*
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 08:26 PM	Yeah, this ain't Highlander. *puts on a Queen CD* I always saw the Time of Troubles as the FR version of Highlander hehe. So does this mean that Lolth will become more warrior like with the portfolios of Selvetarm now? She could absorb Kia's too for more wicked fun.
GreenKnight 01-02-08, 08:28 PM	Birthright needs to be brought back. That's the closest D&D ever came to making a Highlander RPG. /off-topic wishful thinking
AskaniPsion 01-02-08, 08:57 PM	Yep, but it's like every plot is Shar-driven. Bane's starting to not feel as loved by WotC because of it, I'm sure of it. :P As if there's only one evil deity capable of anything. Of course, when they're done cutting there may as well. :rolleyes: Yeah every major plot is filled with Shar-ness. Bane and Cyric might as well be Shar's houseboys. :D
Arbourean 01-03-08, 12:36 AM	As per the novels, Lolth absorbed Selvetarm's church (and presumably his portfolios). As for Kiaransalee--I don't think it was stated yet. I think that scene where Lolth touches Kiaransalee's ring and it turns to dust may infer that she absorbed her portfolio, IMHO anyway.
Arbourean 01-03-08, 12:40 AM	I've mixed feelings on Shar's visibility, though I've always liked her. She's been plotting machinations for millennia now, so eventually they would have to see fruition. It just so happens that a number of her plots are being realized in a relatively short span.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-03-08, 01:02 AM	Nonononononononononono :banghead: :headexplo see this *scrolls up* see that *scrolls down* Shar free zone. All others will be towed.
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 01:07 AM	I've mixed feelings on Shar's visibility, though I've always liked her. She's been plotting machinations for millennia now, so eventually they would have to see fruition. It just so happens that a number of her plots are being realized in a relatively short span. -As Rino said before, many people are suffering from Shar burnout.
Arbourean 01-03-08, 01:24 AM	Shar >>>>> Bane. Though obviously she should slip back into the darkness. She's better as an enigmatic, primordial entity.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-03-08, 09:34 AM	-As Rino said before, many people are suffering from Shar burnout. Yeah, and all with all her plots suddenly climaxing in a short period of time, it becomes harder and harder for me to suspend my sense of disbelief.
Stigger 01-03-08, 02:38 PM	I think I'm going to kill her off once my players get to 30th level... ;)
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 02:41 PM	I think I'm going to kill her off once my players get to 30th level... ;) -You can do that now.
Stigger 01-03-08, 02:43 PM	Nope... we agreed to restart the campaign in 1295 DR, so they're starting out at 1st level. 29 more levels before we can go on a massive Shar ganking... :( :D
sfdragon 01-03-08, 04:06 PM	Nope... we agreed to restart the campaign in 1295 DR, so they're starting out at 1st level. 29 more levels before we can go on a massive Shar ganking... :( :D make sure she squeals when your party guts her
Stigger 01-03-08, 04:22 PM	Spellcaster heavy more than likely, but sizzling can be pretty satisfying too I find.
Kenzuki 01-03-08, 07:31 PM	Nope... we agreed to restart the campaign in 1295 DR, so they're starting out at 1st level. 29 more levels before we can go on a massive Shar ganking... :( :D I wish I was in your campaign, I could serve Bhaal back in that time!
Stigger 01-04-08, 12:14 AM	Not in my campaign you couldn't... I don't run evil campaigns with but a few small exceptions. :evillaugh Okay, so I do, but I'm a prick, and saying that just to be mean. :P :D
Zanan 01-04-08, 11:05 AM	If her former priestesses could remember a thing, they'd probably throw in with Lolth (if only for the power, otherwise...). But Eilistraee had her people slay the ones they could find at the main HQ. Presumably some survive elsewhere. But it's largely a moot point by now. That is in fact the point of the question. The spell simply erased the name* "Kiaransalee" from all the minds of the drow sucseptible to the spell (which was not detailed enough in itself). Not her aliases, any spells, name of her realm, you name it. Neither are priestesses "on the surface" affected, nor are any liturgical books, scrolls, altar inscriptions or reliefes affected. After an initial shock, about 200 ideas would spring to my mind of what has "now happened to me" and how to rectify this situation. What about a returning Banshee Knight, on planar travel hunting a visage. Tons of open questions. There are more elegant ways to put a deity into the locker, as has been done with Selveta ... nay, forget that ... Vhaeraun. of course, as we all know, deities are not exactly dead after they have died either. Unless the Wizards decide to retcon a few certain bits of knowledge and lore and a certain feat in Lost Empires of Faerūn. *Why didn't he go for Lolth straight afterwards? One cure for all.
SunesKisses 01-05-08, 02:09 PM	I love Lisa, her way of writing, and her love of the Dark Elf race, maybe she already new about what is headed our way with the 4e and wanted us to be ready. I mean with the killing off of some of the Drow gods in two novels. It would make some since to me. I think in "Storm of the Dead," she is trying to make Eilistraee more of a a bad ass. She may or may not have went about it in the way most people would have, but still. I have a feeling by the time 4e comes out there will only be one Drow goddess. I wonder who, will mom win or not??? Guess will see in June.
msatran 01-05-08, 04:34 PM	It's going to be Lolth. The 4e Core Material pretty much says as much, and Wizards is already showing us the 4e Core that says Lolth is around. THEY HAVE NO SUSPENSE SKILLS! :) These are people who should be playing D+D and are failed novelists in every sense of the word, writing bad purple prose and thinking they're literary geniuses.
Lord Karsus 01-05-08, 04:57 PM	It's going to be Lolth. The 4e Core Material pretty much says as much, and Wizards is already showing us the 4e Core that says Lolth is around. -Core Lolth will still be around. Forgotten Realms Lolth, maybe. -Though I doubt that Forgotten Realms Lolth is going anywhere. I don't necessarily think that Eilistraee is going to bite the dust, though. I sure hope not, anyway. Hell, we don't even know the rules of stupid Sava- perhaps the outcomes can be 'win', 'loss', or 'draw'.
sfdragon 01-05-08, 05:18 PM	worst case scenerioes 1: eilistraee kills lolth:bad idea, cant say why 2: Lolth kills eilistraee or has some demon do something to her or has her imprisoned. you know there will be people up in arms over this or the option 1. 3: they could kill each other, and whats her name becomes the goddess of the drow taking the place of both. my opinion, its going to be bad no matter what she does. and there will be really heated arguments over it, better just to let them both live by having whats her name to sacrifice herself to save eilistraee to teach lolth that anyone will find redemption at some point.
Lord Karsus 01-05-08, 05:22 PM	3: they could kill each other, and whats her name becomes the goddess of the drow taking the place of both. -Who is 'what's her name'? Shar?
sfdragon 01-05-08, 05:25 PM	that female drow bard from the war of the spiderqueen that lolth made her eternal assassin or something. cant remember her name
Lord Karsus 01-05-08, 05:31 PM	that female drow bard from the war of the spiderqueen that lolth made her eternal assassin or something. cant remember her name -The Lady Penitent? She's a servant of Lolth (something akin to a Chosen, perhaps), not a deity. Although, that is intriguing, now that I think about it...She is a former Eilistraeean and a Lolthite. Perhaps...
faellamos 01-06-08, 06:35 AM	that'd be an interesting twist neway. pretty unlikely tho.
Zanan 01-06-08, 11:46 AM	Halisstra a goddess ... dunno, but she has all the weakness the drow and Lolth despise. There would be some hard mind-twisting needed amongst the FRers and the drow to make such an idea even half-acceptable. Regarding Lisa, AFAIK, she was told in advance whom to put away and left with the story about that. Vhaeraun and Selvetarm were okay (let'S exclude that epic fight of Cavatina though), but Kiaransalee, well ... it has been done to death already.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 11:49 AM	Halisstra a goddess ... dunno, but she has all the weakness the drow and Lolth despise. There would be some hard mind-twisting needed amongst the FRers and the drow to make such an idea even half-acceptable. -She could 'kill' Lolth, and then assume Danifae's place as Lolth. So, technically, Lolth would still exist, only as Hallistra-Lolth, not Danifae-Lolth. What would the average Drow know of this? Nothing.
Zanan 01-06-08, 12:07 PM	-She could 'kill' Lolth, and then assume Danifae's place as Lolth. So, technically, Lolth would still exist, only as Hallistra-Lolth, not Danifae-Lolth. What would the average Drow know of this? Nothing. Don't give any more ridiculous hints to the Wizards, if you please. Neither Halisstra nor anyone else below Greater Power status should have sniff of a chance killing another greater deity like Lolth. Hallistra would simply do a Karsus - and she's not even half as good as the arcanist. And it does not matter whether the drow know, we would know.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 12:17 PM	Don't give any more ridiculous hints to the Wizards, if you please. Neither Halisstra nor anyone else below Greater Power status should have sniff of a chance killing another greater deity like Lolth. Hallistra would simply do a Karsus - and she's not even half as good as the arcanist. -Here's a simple scenario, that theoretically works. Lolth and Eilistraee go at it. Lolth eventually wins, but is weakened. The Lady Penitent then appears, and strikes at Lolth with, say, the Crescent Blade. We know it was designed to destroy Lolth- who knows if it still can, with the strange hints of it's behaviors. Anyway, so, she does that and kills Danifae-Lolth, and then becomes Halisstra-Lolth. -Don't worry about anyone actually reading this stuff, Zan. If they actually did "steal" out ideas, there would be a lot more good ideas and plotlines running around. ;) And it does not matter whether the drow know, we would know. -Of course we know, but you wouldn't have to explain how/what/etc. the Drow feel about all of it.
AskaniPsion 01-06-08, 12:51 PM	make sure she squeals when your party guts her LOL that is great! Make sure you cut off her head as a trophy and hang it on the wall too next to the deer and Umberhulk heads :D
Storm_Silverhand 01-06-08, 05:18 PM	Heya, It's going to be Lolth. The 4e Core Material pretty much says as much, and Wizards is already showing us the 4e Core that says Lolth is around. THEY HAVE NO SUSPENSE SKILLS! :) These are people who should be playing D+D and are failed novelists in every sense of the word, writing bad purple prose and thinking they're literary geniuses. Yes, they don't know how to not spoil their own novels... Follow me on this one... Lolth is the goddess of the New Moon in 4e. Eilistraee's moon went half dark when she absorbed Vhaeraun. Either Lolth will absorb Eilistraee, and that moon will go fully dark. Or Eilistraee will absorb Lolth and her moon will go fully dark and she'll essentially become Lolth. Either way, Eilistraee is not going to survive the sava game.
Zanan 01-06-08, 06:03 PM	-Here's a simple scenario, that theoretically works. Lolth and Eilistraee go at it. Lolth eventually wins, but is weakened. The Lady Penitent then appears, and strikes at Lolth with, say, the Crescent Blade. We know it was designed to destroy Lolth- who knows if it still can, with the strange hints of it's behaviors. Anyway, so, she does that and kills Danifae-Lolth, and then becomes Halisstra-Lolth. Nono ... we know that it has the capability to kill even gods. No words bar Eilistraeen imagination and wishful thinking about the weapon being made to slay the Spider Queen. Obviously, weakened or not, it is not exactly like Lolth just sits around alone in the "last room of a dungeon that has just been cleansed room by room by the heroes" and waits for fate to happen by. Lolth chose her 8th aspect in Danifae, she was essentially 7/8th ready. T'won't be that easy for Halisstra. Ach well, I actually don't want to spend any more energy on these hypothesis. The Wiazrds know what they want to do, Lisa as well. We'll see what happens some time in 2008 and will probably have to wait till 2010 till a sourcebooks clarifies everything. And WotC will do whatever they like to, whether it makes hash of previous lore and canon or not, as has more or less happened not too long ago.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 06:16 PM	Nono ... we know that it has the capability to kill even gods. No words bar Eilistraeen imagination and wishful thinking about the weapon being made to slay the Spider Queen. Obviously, weakened or not, it is not exactly like Lolth just sits around alone in the "last room of a dungeon that has just been cleansed room by room by the heroes" and waits for fate to happen by. Lolth chose her 8th aspect in Danifae, she was essentially 7/8th ready. T'won't be that easy for Halisstra. -Which is why I said that Halisstra takes advantage of the period in which Lolth seemingly would be injured after her final battle with Eilistraee.
Selvarin 01-06-08, 06:42 PM	The series is as much about the drow/dark elves defining who they are as a race as it is about knocking off drow deities. Halisstra will be the deciding factor. Since I actually like Eilistraee a little more now, it's almost certain that the silly buntcakes over at WotC will kill her off. Really, when's the last time they did something I agreed with? :P
Kenzuki 01-06-08, 07:32 PM	There can be only one....:P
sfdragon 01-06-08, 11:47 PM	There can be only one....:P yeah but one what, the highlander ended with one pair , so FR4e could end with both lolth and eilistraee........ still Im going to blame the community with all the too many good drow comments if eilistraee gets beer trucked off.
Storm_Silverhand 01-07-08, 02:17 AM	Heya, yeah but one what, the highlander ended with one pair , so FR4e could end with both lolth and eilistraee........ still Im going to blame the community with all the too many good drow comments if eilistraee gets beer trucked off. The way things seem to be going, good drow will soon have no deity of their own, and will have to turn to other good deities. Eilistraee in Storm of the Dead is a very different deity to how she was in the opening stages of the first novel (and prior to that as well). After absorbing Vhaeraun, her sign is now a half darkened moon, and if things progress the way I think they will, eventually Eilistraee's moon will be completely eclipsed. I must say I'm extremely ticked off by this... Maybe it might have been better had I not been able to get my hands on the Lady Penitent novels.
Zanan 01-07-08, 04:48 AM	There can be only one....:P This is probably the worst adopted line of thought by WotC recently. Obviously, the teasers about the whole series - who are as revealing as they are misleading - all go along that line. And, of course, DotUD has gone a long way telling us what an "ideal" drow pantheon would be, dominated by just one deity. Heck, my drow would very soon try to raise their own deities or switch to demon and evil lords ... to have a bit of competition there without all this eternally hyped-up religious strife.
Kenzuki 01-07-08, 09:46 AM	yeah but one what, the highlander ended with one pair , so FR4e could end with both lolth and eilistraee........ still Im going to blame the community with all the too many good drow comments if eilistraee gets beer trucked off. Highlander: Endgame sucked....let us speak of it no more. Connor is The One!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-07-08, 10:39 AM	I must say I'm extremely ticked off by this... Maybe it might have been better had I not been able to get my hands on the Lady Penitent novels. But the changes would have happened anyway.:(
Kenzuki 01-07-08, 10:43 AM	What if Lolth did absorb Elis and actually made her a better person? Couldn't Lolth get "corrupted" by her daughter?
Lord Karsus 01-07-08, 12:27 PM	I must say I'm extremely ticked off by this... Maybe it might have been better had I not been able to get my hands on the Lady Penitent novels. -At first, I agreed. I was pretty ticked off, too. But, as time passed, it's grown on me. In multiple ways, the Eilistraeean faith was much too inclusive, and the Vhaeraunite faith was much too inclusive. Merging the two faiths, along with all of the symbolism that goes with it- the moon illuminates, and at the same time, creates shadows- appeals to me. Instead of seeing Eilistraee inherently changed, though, I would have liked to see the birth of a dual-aspect deity, composed of a merged Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Of course, if Eilistraee is truly doomed, none of that really matters, anyway...
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-07-08, 05:00 PM	So what would the Elistree lay out look like for this new combonation. She seems to be at the very least True Neutral, if not chaotic. And I'm still not sure on the domains and all that.
Kenzuki 01-07-08, 05:11 PM	Does this mean that Elistraee is a man-woman now that she and her brother are one?
Zanan 01-07-08, 05:23 PM	-At first, I agreed. I was pretty ticked off, too. But, as time passed, it's grown on me. In multiple ways, the Eilistraeean faith was much too inclusive, and the Vhaeraunite faith was much too inclusive. Merging the two faiths, along with all of the symbolism that goes with it- the moon illuminates, and at the same time, creates shadows- appeals to me. Instead of seeing Eilistraee inherently changed, though, I would have liked to see the birth of a dual-aspect deity, composed of a merged Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Of course, if Eilistraee is truly doomed, none of that really matters, anyway... In what way was either faith "too inclusive"?
Kenzuki 01-07-08, 05:26 PM	If a god dies it's because it is weak. If it is killed it didn't deserve your worship, be cause it was weak. The strong survive to fight another day, the weak perish. We need new leadership in this world where weak "gods" die by the handful. We need...a True Leader. - Paid for by the People's Choice for Bane as Overgod.
Selvarin 01-07-08, 05:35 PM	'Exclusive'.... The whole gender thing again. Drow males only for Vhaeraun and (mostly) drow females for Eilistraee, at least at the priestess level. Doubt many drow women worshipped Vhaeraun aside from masked traitors and rogues, but anyhow... Both were too stuck on gender, but both likewise have/had an interest in opposing and defeating Lolth. One was more cut-throat than the other. Better to bring the forces together, even if the result is more shadow than starlight. Very fey, and very 'points of light'. If the official published Realms will be stuck with just Corellon, Sehahine/Selune, and Lolth, Eilistraee still has a viable place but she won't represent drow per se. A sliver of feyness that the drow once adhered to before the great corruption, and one more acceptable than Sehahine/Selune.
Storm_Silverhand 01-07-08, 05:42 PM	Heya, -At first, I agreed. I was pretty ticked off, too. But, as time passed, it's grown on me. In multiple ways, the Eilistraeean faith was much too inclusive, and the Vhaeraunite faith was much too inclusive. Merging the two faiths, along with all of the symbolism that goes with it- the moon illuminates, and at the same time, creates shadows- appeals to me. Instead of seeing Eilistraee inherently changed, though, I would have liked to see the birth of a dual-aspect deity, composed of a merged Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Of course, if Eilistraee is truly doomed, none of that really matters, anyway... I don't think "inclusive" means what you think it means. :) In the context you're using it, it makes no sense... I think you meant to say they were exclusive. I can understand that people wanted Eilistraee to include males in her clergy, but this wouldn't have been the way I would have done it. Personally, I hate it. Who do Good Drow turn to now? Eilistraee's corruption seems to be infecting even her clergy. :( Also, I don't think it's going to stop at the half darkened moon. I think we're in the process of losing Eilistraee... Even if she doesn't totally go away, we've still lost her as a Good deity. I can't express how much I hate what's happening to her. I can't express how much I hate how Evil seems to be triumphant in the 4e Realms. :weep: :mad: :weep: :mad:
Kenzuki 01-07-08, 06:02 PM	Heya, I don't think "inclusive" means what you think it means. :) In the context you're using it, it makes no sense... I think you meant to say they were exclusive. I can understand that people wanted Eilistraee to include males in her clergy, but this wouldn't have been the way I would have done it. Personally, I hate it. Who do Good Drow turn to now? Eilistraee's corruption seems to be infecting even her clergy. :( Also, I don't think it's going to stop at the half darkened moon. I think we're in the process of losing Eilistraee... Even if she doesn't totally go away, we've still lost her as a Good deity. I can't express how much I hate what's happening to her. I can't express how much I hate how Evil seems to be triumphant in the 4e Realms. :weep: :mad: :weep: :mad: Why can't evil win a couple of times? You know Elminster or someone else is just going to eventually swoop in later on and right all wrongs as usual. If evil never wins then good has nothing to do! Good cannot exist without evil.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-07-08, 06:14 PM	Why can't evil win a couple of times? You know Elminster or someone else is just going to eventually swoop in later on and right all wrongs as usual. Umm, no, that's not how it works.
Kenzuki 01-07-08, 06:20 PM	Umm, no, that's not how it works. It could happen....
Lord Karsus 01-07-08, 06:40 PM	I don't think "inclusive" means what you think it means. :) In the context you're using it, it makes no sense... I think you meant to say they were exclusive. -Indeed. I can understand that people wanted Eilistraee to include males in her clergy, but this wouldn't have been the way I would have done it. -Not allowing males in her clergy is unrealistic, based on the fact that the Eilistraeean church is small to begin with. Only...what was it, 15%-20% of the Drow in Faerūn pay her tribute. The number of individuals who are more devout than that is going to be smaller. The number of individuals who are more devout, and are involved in the church, in one fashion or another, is even smaller, still. -And, before you bring it up...If Vhaeraun did the same thing- not allow women into his clergy, I'd be spouting the same thing, only in the opposite direction. Any religion that is relativley small should not be picking and choosing leaders of the church and faith based alone on sex. Beggars can't be choosers. If the church of...Lathander, known around the entire world, with hundreds of thousands of followers, wanted to use a practice like that, fine. But, neither Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, as well as Kiaransalee, are that wide spread. Personally, I hate it. Who do Good Drow turn to now? Eilistraee's corruption seems to be infecting even her clergy. :( Also, I don't think it's going to stop at the half darkened moon. I think we're in the process of losing Eilistraee... Even if she doesn't totally go away, we've still lost her as a Good deity. -They'd turn to...Eilistraee. Where does it say that she is suddenly evil, or that the plight of good Drow is not of her concern anymore? She's changed, sure. If you want to give a direct 'blow for blow', her good is negated by his evil. Thus, she is neutral. But, we know that it doesn't necessarily work like that- Finder Wyvernspur was neutral, absorbed Moander, who was evil and he is not evil. Shar absorbed Ibrandul, who was not evil, and doing so did not make her any less evil.
Selvarin 01-07-08, 07:54 PM	At worst she's Chaotic Neutral. Whether one believes she changed as a result of absorbing the remainder of Vhaeraun's church (or of Vhaeraun himself) is a non-issue. In her quest to beat Lolth she's ordered her people to do things that wouldn't normally have done. And, as pointed out, not being ' Goody Good' doesn't make her Evil. There's nothing that says Eilistraee's followers won't segregtate themselves somewhat based on good/neutral and evil sects.
Kenzuki 01-07-08, 10:04 PM	Those who fight evil with evil, often become evil.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-07-08, 10:30 PM	but with evil and good. so evil + good = neutral. that's what I'd put my money.
Selvarin 01-07-08, 10:32 PM	She's had to become more accomodating. It's not like she's moved on to ritual sacrifice and war with the surface elves (unlike her mother). And as with everything else it's being done in order to be in line with WotC's future plans...
Lord Karsus 01-07-08, 11:02 PM	Those who fight evil with evil, often become evil. -And many do not as well.
Storm_Silverhand 01-08-08, 12:08 AM	Heya, -Not allowing males in her clergy is unrealistic, based on the fact that the Eilistraeean church is small to begin with. Only...what was it, 15%-20% of the Drow in Faerūn pay her tribute. The number of individuals who are more devout than that is going to be smaller. The number of individuals who are more devout, and are involved in the church, in one fashion or another, is even smaller, still. Given the way the Eilistraeeans have been throwing around Resurrection spells in the LP series (without diamonds! :rolleyes:), it would seem you have a valid point... But absorbing Vhaeraun wouldn't have been the way I'd have changed things. Even Ed's vision of males dancing a "change dance" to be female for part of their service isn't the way I'd have done it. I just would have casually mentioned in her write up in Faiths and Pantheons something like this: "Eilistraee is now served by a very small number of male clerics, and that number is very slowly growing. There's some resentment amongst the female clergy, but as this directive comes straight from Eilistraee herself no female clergy have challenged it as yet. As time goes by, this resentment will lessen." (This opens the way for a heretical sect that doesn't allow males (a plot hook, basically), but still allows male PC clerics in the main faith... After all PCs are the exceptions, right? So they could very well be amongst the small but growing number of male clerics in the faith.) Something as big as allowing male clerics in a faith that's traditionally been female only isn't going to happen over night. We have real world examples - some Christian sects allow female priests, others don't and show no signs of ever allowing them. *cough*Roman Catholics*cough* -And, before you bring it up...If Vhaeraun did the same thing- not allow women into his clergy, I'd be spouting the same thing, only in the opposite direction. Any religion that is relativley small should not be picking and choosing leaders of the church and faith based alone on sex. Beggars can't be choosers. If the church of...Lathander, known around the entire world, with hundreds of thousands of followers, wanted to use a practice like that, fine. But, neither Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, as well as Kiaransalee, are that wide spread. Demihuman Deities pg 37... "All priests of the Masked Lord must be male, with the rare exception of suborned priests of Lolth." You were saying? (And come on, don't tell me "rare exceptions" are enough... If beggars can't be choosers, then they'd have to accept any female who wanted to be a cleric, and yet this is not what is stated above.) (IIRC, like Eilistraee this restriction isn't mentioned in Faiths and Pantheons.) -They'd turn to...Eilistraee. Where does it say that she is suddenly evil, or that the plight of good Drow is not of her concern anymore? She's changed, sure. If you want to give a direct 'blow for blow', her good is negated by his evil. Thus, she is neutral. But, we know that it doesn't necessarily work like that- Finder Wyvernspur was neutral, absorbed Moander, who was evil and he is not evil. Shar absorbed Ibrandul, who was not evil, and doing so did not make her any less evil. They won't have her for very much longer if my reading of the situation is correct.
sfdragon 01-08-08, 04:45 AM	in battle, there is no good or evil order. the victor writes the history. could she become good again afterwards, maybe, did vhaerun fake it and merge with his sister to kill that eight legged bimbo maybe, affter all sooth sayers , diviners can see and foretell quite a bith but they never really do speak plainly, its done in riddles, and its not mysterious, its just annoying.
Zanan 01-08-08, 04:56 AM	If a god dies it's because it is weak. Nope. It is because the designers want him or her removed, for whatever in-game or out-of-game reason. Sometimes we get a decent enough (i.e. in-game logical/realistical) explanation. Hypothising on the if's and but's on here, i.e. in-game facts and figures, is a neat sport and helps to waste a bit of life energy, but essentially the important thing is what the designers decided in the first place.
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 08:03 AM	Nope. It is because the designers want him or her removed, for whatever in-game or out-of-game reason. Sometimes we get a decent enough (i.e. in-game logical/realistical) explanation. Hypothising on the if's and but's on here, i.e. in-game facts and figures, is a neat sport and helps to waste a bit of life energy, but essentially the important thing is what the designers decided in the first place. That was Bane propaganda Zanna, you were not supposed to take it seriously. Karsus: Those who fight evil with evil and yet don't become corrupt even a little themselves are Mary Sue/Gary Sue characters imho.
Fire_Wraith 01-08-08, 08:34 AM	Eilistraee having male priests seems fine to me. As LK says, it makes sense (even if matters of religion and faith do not always conform to what's logical). However, I dislike the way they have compromised what Eilistraee's religion symbolized. At its core it has never been solely about opposition to Lolth. Rather, it was about redemption and forgiveness. Bringing the drow to the surface, as I see it, isn't about just taking them away from Lolth. Instead, it is about restoring them to what they once were, to going back to the lost ways of the (non-evil) Dark Elves before they became dhaerow. Even if she's not just tossed aside, or otherwise folded into some other goddess, for 4e, they're destroying the core of the religion, in my view. As far as "evil never wins," I'd sort of beg to differ. While evil may not constantly win outright, there are a lot of instances where evil endures, expands, and remains a menace despite the oft-pyrrhic 'victories' of the heroes. Take the Return of the Archwizards series, for instance: Good gets: Well, at least Evereska survived. The Shadovar were stopped from their nefarious plot, as were the Phaerimm. Downside: Tilverton? What's that? Evereska, the last remaining elven city outside Evermeet, while not destroyed, is still a complete wreck, with countless elves slaughtered. Even the hero manages to become compromised by his use of the Shadow Weave. This is no Disney/Hollywood ending. And no, Elminster doesn't just swoop in and fix it all - that sort of stuff only happens in the game of a rather bad or inexperienced DM. In the few situations in novels that he *does* step in, like the above mentioned series, it's only because the threat is equally dire, and his role is staving off utter disaster, not making things perfect.
Zanan 01-08-08, 09:03 AM	@ Kenzuki ... fair enough :cool: (T'was more a general remark about things sometimes taken too seriously.) Regarding Eilistraee, she was essentially a "copy" of the Roman Diana, a hunter / moon goddess among the Seldarine deities. Going with her mother into banishment was one thing, trying to get the drow redeemed (from what? ... they are a race on its own now. Next we will try to make the orcs elves again ... now wait, that was Tolkien ...?) was a notion adopted 20,000 years later. Fighting Lolth and her worshippers was just one aspect of Eilistraee's faith. Hence, she was/is more "real" IMHO, especially because she also to the gender-restriction element of Diana along. No need for gender-equal faiths everywhere, especially, if you have 150odd faiths to chose from. (BTW, have a look at current real world faiths and look for gender equality ... ) Vhaeraun, ever since he descended alongside Araushnee (because he failed to contain Sehanine), has more or less been a bag of vengeance and hate, only willling to thwart the Spider Queen and her priestesses wherever she was. This is as much bound to failure as is Sheverash's plan to eradicate the drow and Lolth. And, IMHO, those two deities are not exactly needed or would be that great a loss. (NB: Yes, I know that Vhaeraun catered to the drow on the surface, but essentially he only catered to male drow and because he could not hack it in the Night Below.)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-08-08, 12:23 PM	Those who fight evil with evil, often become evil. As LK pointed out, that's kind of a "nothing" statement because many people who fight evil don't become evil.
Lord Karsus 01-08-08, 01:18 PM	Karsus: Those who fight evil with evil and yet don't become corrupt even a little themselves are Mary Sue/Gary Sue characters imho. -Do you have any proof to back up your claims? As per 2001, less than 3% of NYPD undercover officers, who activley deal with the darker side of humanity, in order to being them to justice, become 'corrupted'. That there are tens of thousands of NYPD officers, your claim seems to be weak.
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 02:40 PM	-Do you have any proof to back up your claims? As per 2001, less than 3% of NYPD undercover officers, who activley deal with the darker side of humanity, in order to being them to justice, become 'corrupted'. That there are tens of thousands of NYPD officers, your claim seems to be weak. If good adopts the ways of evil it becomes evil.
Dzwood 01-08-08, 02:58 PM	-Do you have any proof to back up your claims? As per 2001, less than 3% of NYPD undercover officers, who activley deal with the darker side of humanity, in order to being them to justice, become 'corrupted'. That there are tens of thousands of NYPD officers, your claim seems to be weak. I think he means in fantacy terms. In that case i would have to agree....but I think Mis El has a trick up her... Well I was gonna say sleve but she is naked so I dont know where she would keep that trick
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 03:03 PM	I think he means in fantacy terms. In that case i would have to agree....but I think Mis El has a trick up her... Well I was gonna say sleve but she is naked so I dont know where she would keep that trick Don't ask don't tell....
sfdragon 01-08-08, 03:05 PM	its under her mask............
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 03:21 PM	No, please try again.
Dzwood 01-08-08, 03:48 PM	Don't ask don't tell.... Ummm don't get me started on that!!!!!:weep: And I doubt she could keep a secret that big in the spot you are implining........ I mean no one has that much hair! You ment her hair right?!?!?!?!?! OMG what could u have ment?
Lord Karsus 01-08-08, 04:28 PM	If good adopts the ways of evil it becomes evil. -Again, do you have any proof to back that claim up? As far as I am concerned, I just disproved it. The great majority of undercover cops are certainly not evil, however much the associate and participate with evil.
msatran 01-08-08, 04:59 PM	No Eilistraee=Screw You, Wizards. And I buy a lot of stuff from them.
Selvarin 01-08-08, 05:08 PM	Why see things in such stark contrasts? One doesn't have to be Good in order to not be Evil. There are individuals in real life and fantasy who wish to do good or serve the greater good, but for various reasons either choose to or must do things which are less than honorable or lily-white. Erevis Cale's a good example. Doing evil can lead to Evil if actively pursued, but there is a fine line there. Evil is about not caring, even being actively malign. Neutral isn't about doing evil, it's more about getting things done and choosing to ignore or rationalize some moral issues more often than not. CN, for example, is more about individual freedom and a lack of G/E bent, doing what you want without necessarily having malice...which to me is more 'fey' like the old stories I'd read. If Eilistraee's become CN as a result of her recent actions then she's no more 'evil' than Erevan Ilesere, or Shaundakul. It certainly doesn't mean she's going to slide into CE.
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 05:27 PM	-Again, do you have any proof to back that claim up? As far as I am concerned, I just disproved it. The great majority of undercover cops are certainly not evil, however much the associate and participate with evil. The ends justifies the means huh? I disagree. I think what seperates good from evil is that evil is willing to do anything to get what it wants, evil cheats while good plays by the rules. If good cheats evil wins by default because if good adopts the ways of evil it becomes evil. It's like a paladin who slaughters the children and women of an orc village while the men are out hunting because they were a "threat". Sure he might save lives or help the larger good later but that doesn't erase the fact that he has the blood of the innocent orc children on his sword and conscience.
Lord Karsus 01-08-08, 05:45 PM	The ends justifies the means huh? I disagree. I think what seperates good from evil is that evil is willing to do anything to get what it wants, evil cheats while good plays by the rules. If good cheats evil wins by default because if good adopts the ways of evil it becomes evil. It's like a paladin who slaughters the children and women of an orc village while the men are out hunting because they were a "threat". Sure he might save lives or help the larger good later but that doesn't erase the fact that he has the blood of the innocent orc children on his sword and conscience. -That isn't the topic at hand. You asserted that cooperating and commiserating with evil makes you evil. That is what I am contesting. I provided statistics that demonstrate in a large target sample (NYPD) that this is not true. Can you counter? -And, on a side tangent, I agree with the actions of the Paladin in question.
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 05:55 PM	-That isn't the topic at hand. You asserted that cooperating and commiserating with evil makes you evil. That is what I am contesting. I provided statistics that demonstrate in a large target sample (NYPD) that this is not true. Can you counter? -And, on a side tangent, I agree with the actions of the Paladin in question. I subject therefore that that paladin is corrupt.
Selvarin 01-08-08, 05:56 PM	That is beyond simplistic and also a false argument. The orc women and children are not a threat, killing them wouldn't be 'for the greater good'. If the orc chief set it up so the paladin would have to mow through women and children (used in place of more valuable warriors defending a choke-point, for example) in order to get to a certain locale and stop something calamitous, then that could well be a "grit one's teeth, do it, and pray later" situation. But this isn't what it's about.
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 06:01 PM	Well I just believe that good doesn't have to resort to evil to defeat evil. If it has to than it only proves that evil is stronger than good.
Storm_Silverhand 01-08-08, 06:17 PM	Heya, LK, you have nothing to say about Vhaeraun's gender restricted clergy?
Selvarin 01-08-08, 06:21 PM	There's a scene in Demolition Man wherein Sylvester Stallone's character is informed that the government deemed whatever isn't 'good' for people to be 'bad' and banned it. This is the kind of thinking that should be avoided because it ignores reality. Some actions are neither good nor bad, the reason why they were done have as much to bear on that judgement as anything. It's like the "Do the ends justify the means?" argument. The answer is ~sometimes~. The laws of survival and self-preservation matters as much as high-mindedness, and when it comes to war (which is what Eilistraee is engaged in) the latter is sometimes trumped by other things by that need to survive. Both for herself and her people. So now she's the Masked Lady, and no doubt Lolth gloats privately at how her daughter has changed in the course of this particular sava game. But Eilistraee is also in a better position to challenge her than she was before. WotC policy will dictate her survival or death but if she survives she's been changed for the long-term. One thing going for her is she isn't exactly an interloper (like Tyr, despite the Diana archetype) and has a native following.
Storm_Silverhand 01-08-08, 06:32 PM	Heya, So now she's the Masked Lady, and no doubt Lolth gloats privately at how her daughter has changed in the course of this particular sava game. But Eilistraee is also in a better position to challenge her than she was before. WotC policy will dictate her survival or death but if she survives she's been changed for the long-term. One thing going for her is she isn't exactly an interloper (like Tyr, despite the Diana archetype) and has a native following. Yes, I think Lolth is probably quite amused by the changes she can see. Eilistraee is only superficially like Diana - she strikes me (as her followers are depicted in what I've read of the LP series - almost done with book 2) as more of a bardic goddess than a huntress. Her priestess sing prayers and spells, and dance is very important to them. I have to wonder what happens if a priestess (or Nightshadow) can't sing or is tone deaf? What do they do? Are the even acceptable as clergy? Anyway, enough sidetracking from me! I don't think Eilistraee's "native" position is going to save her... Today I'm also leaning towards the theory that Vhaeraun and Eilistraee merged voluntarily (in order to defeat Lolth - you know the whole enemy of my enemy thing...), and that they might even split before the end. Especially as several Nightshadows seem to be calling on the Masked Lord rather than the Masked Lady, and referring to the deity as "he". It wouldn't be too hard for Eilistraee to slough off her brother's essence, and return him to life... But I suspect that's not going to happen. There are enough hints that Eilistraee is going to meet her demise, since Lolth is definitely going to be in 4e, and this sava game is supposed to be to the death.
Lord Karsus 01-08-08, 06:59 PM	Heya, LK, you have nothing to say about Vhaeraun's gender restricted clergy? -I didn't even see you responded. -Vhaeraun isn't as bad as Eilistraee, because there is the 1% of his clergy that is made up of females, as opposed to Eilistraee's 0% of her clergy that is made up of females. But, 1% is not realistic, either. The point that I was making about Eilistraee goes for Vhaeraun, too. I specifically said that.
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 07:12 PM	Forgive me Lord Karsus, I should have known better than to argue with one of the most powerful wizards ever to walk the Prime....
Lord Karsus 01-08-08, 07:58 PM	Forgive me Lord Karsus, I should have known better than to argue with one of the most powerful wizards ever to walk the Prime.... -That's the spirit! :thumbsup:
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 08:08 PM	I think Karsus is awesome, even if Ioulaum did call him a noob.
Lord Karsus 01-08-08, 08:47 PM	I think Karsus is awesome, even if Ioulaum did call him a noob. -And, look at what happened to him. I achieved godhood, while he's a mass of rotting gray and white matter in a pool of stagnant brine.
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 09:19 PM	-And, look at what happened to him. I achieved godhood, while he's a mass of rotting gray and white matter in a pool of stagnant brine. Hrmmmm a massive of rotting gray and white matter or a rock...
Lord Karsus 01-08-08, 11:19 PM	Hrmmmm a massive of rotting gray and white matter or a rock... -A rock, a petrified corpse in the Astral, a mindless golem, and a disembodied spirit (to which you are talking to).
Storm_Silverhand 01-09-08, 12:10 AM	Heya, -Vhaeraun isn't as bad as Eilistraee, because there is the 1% of his clergy that is made up of females, as opposed to Eilistraee's 0% of her clergy that is made up of females. But, 1% is not realistic, either. The point that I was making about Eilistraee goes for Vhaeraun, too. I specifically said that. We don't have any figures on what "rare exception" means, so saying 1% is a guess - for all we know it could be 0.1%, or 0.01%, or even 0.001% and still be a rare exception. The text says "Rare exception" who are "...suborned priests of Lolth" - so those rare exceptions actually pretend to worship Lolth at best, or at worst they actually serve both deities, playing one off against the other. They don't make much of a significant impact on Vhaeraun's clergy, no matter what the actual figure is. Anyway, the big brouhaha over sexist clergy always seems to be about Eilistraee. Vhaeraun is rarely if ever mentioned in connection to it, and never protested about. Just out of curiosity, if Vhaeraun was CG instead of Evil, and only allowed male clergy, while Eilistraee only allowed female clergy, would you still have a problem?
Fire_Wraith 01-09-08, 12:42 AM	Storm, I'd agree on the possibility that the two made an agreement, and could eventually split, if we only had the novels to go on, rather than the evidence of the deicidal spree the designers have embarked on. :P It would, however, make a very believable house-rule/homebrew story adaptation. It's probably also worth noting that the various Vhaeraunite priests that still pray to "him" could potentially be considered Heretics under the rules outlined for such. Lastly, this notion that they want to fold all of the racial gods into the standard pantheon is what worries me most for Eilistraee's survival. She would either need to become a full-blown deity for all races, merge with another goddess (Mielikki, perhaps?), or just be killed off entirely. Given both the vague references we've heard, and the general way the 4e changes seem to have been about tossing out things that are good and liked about the Realms by myself (and others), I'm not exactly optimistic here. :weep:
Lord Karsus 01-09-08, 12:45 AM	We don't have any figures on what "rare exception" means, so saying 1% is a guess - for all we know it could be 0.1%, or 0.01%, or even 0.001% and still be a rare exception. The text says "Rare exception" who are "...suborned priests of Lolth" - so those rare exceptions actually pretend to worship Lolth at best, or at worst they actually serve both deities, playing one off against the other. They don't make much of a significant impact on Vhaeraun's clergy, no matter what the actual figure is. -The text specifically says, "over 99% of whom are male", meaning that remaining 1% is composed of females. That does not minimize or erase the fact that Vhaeraun allows female clergy members, however. -And, if we want to get really specific, Vhaerun probably prizes his Traitor-Priestess' more than his Darkmasks, because a Traitor-Priestess directly signifies his victory over Lolth, whereas the Darkmask does not really symbolize that. I know that if I were CEO of a large corporation, I'd gloat over the fact that Mr. X, a high ranking manager, came to my company, leaving someone else's company to do so. Anyway, the big brouhaha over sexist clergy always seems to be about Eilistraee. Vhaeraun is rarely if ever mentioned in connection to it, and never protested about. -The fact that he at least allows for priests and priestess', whereas Eilstraee doesn't would seem to do it. Eilistraee is also a much more popular deity than Vhaeraun, and as such, is featured and "put in the spot light" a lot more, meaning there will always be more people to analyze and scrutinize Eilistraee than Vhaeraun. Just out of curiosity, if Vhaeraun was CG instead of Evil, and only allowed male clergy, while Eilistraee only allowed female clergy, would you still have a problem? -Yes. Like I said, in such a small community (non-Lolthite Drow, free from the influence of Lolth's clergy), beggars should not be choosers. Now, if they were different aspects of the same deity, as the 'Masked Lady' seems to be, then I wouldn't. A large community provides more individuals. Males can be known as Darkmasks, females can be known as Darkladies, but in the end, they are both considered Clerics.
msatran 01-09-08, 01:02 AM	I submit that the paladin is not corrupt. It depends on what deity the paladin is a god of. If the Paladin's god is Illmater, it's over. Immediately. No powers, no abilities, nothing. He's a fighter. If the paladin's god is Tyr? May a swift death rescue them all from Gruumsh, and may Tyr's blessing bring them to a better life.
Storm_Silverhand 01-09-08, 01:50 AM	Heya, -The text specifically says, "over 99% of whom are male", meaning that remaining 1% is composed of females. That does not minimize or erase the fact that Vhaeraun allows female clergy members, however. "Over 99%" doesn't mean exactly 99%. Therefore, less than 1% of Vhaeraun's clergy are female. Once again, we're working with fuzzy numbers. Over 99% could mean 99.1% or it could mean 99.9%. -And, if we want to get really specific, Vhaerun probably prizes his Traitor-Priestess' more than his Darkmasks, because a Traitor-Priestess directly signifies his victory over Lolth, whereas the Darkmask does not really symbolize that. I know that if I were CEO of a large corporation, I'd gloat over the fact that Mr. X, a high ranking manager, came to my company, leaving someone else's company to do so. His traitor priestesses are expendable, mostly because he knows that they really only exist at Lolth's pleasure. Also, if they're a traitor once, they could easily be a traitor again - so they're not to be trusted. Though I think you're right, and Vhaeraun would probably gloat over the fact that these priestesses serve him, even if it's only temporarily or grudgingly. -The fact that he at least allows for priests and priestess', whereas Eilstraee doesn't would seem to do it. Eilistraee is also a much more popular deity than Vhaeraun, and as such, is featured and "put in the spot light" a lot more, meaning there will always be more people to analyze and scrutinize Eilistraee than Vhaeraun. Less than 1% of Vhaeraun's clergy is made up of traitor priestesses. It's a negligible number. I'm not surprised Eilistraee is a popular deity - she has appeal to both genders. ;) Shame her popularity won't save her from the 4e axe. -Yes. Like I said, in such a small community (non-Lolthite Drow, free from the influence of Lolth's clergy), beggars should not be choosers. Now, if they were different aspects of the same deity, as the 'Masked Lady' seems to be, then I wouldn't. A large community provides more individuals. Males can be known as Darkmasks, females can be known as Darkladies, but in the end, they are both considered Clerics. A god doesn't exist just on the faith of his or her clergy, but on the faith of all of his or her faithful. Clergy will always be a small proportion of the faithful, and neither Eilistraee nor Vhaeraun have gender restrictions on their faithful. If you were talking about just their clergy, if only their clergy mattered as far as power goes, then you might have a point. Needless to say, Vhaeraun only pays lip service to the idea of gender equality - he actually wants males (or at least his clerics seem to believe that he does anyway) to rule. As far as Eilistraee goes, I don't know what her stand is, but I'd imagine it was more inclusive than exclusive...
Lord Karsus 01-09-08, 02:09 AM	"Over 99%" doesn't mean exactly 99%. Therefore, less than 1% of Vhaeraun's clergy are female. Once again, we're working with fuzzy numbers. Over 99% could mean 99.1% or it could mean 99.9%. -Even 99.9% leaves that .01%, whereas 100% leaves exactly 0%. His traitor priestesses are expendable, mostly because he knows that they really only exist at Lolth's pleasure. Also, if they're a traitor once, they could easily be a traitor again - so they're not to be trusted. Though I think you're right, and Vhaeraun would probably gloat over the fact that these priestesses serve him, even if it's only temporarily or grudgingly. -One theory is that Lolth knows of their activities, but allows it for her own personal amusement. One other theory is that she genuinely does not know, as Vhaeraun prevents the scrying, etc. of the particular Traitor-Priestess from everyone, including Lolth. Certainly a viable theory. Less than 1% of Vhaeraun's clergy is made up of traitor priestesses. It's a negligible number. -See above. I'm not surprised Eilistraee is a popular deity - she has appeal to both genders. ;) Shame her popularity won't save her from the 4e axe. -Personally, I don't see the appeal others see in her, besides she is a naked Drow chick. In the most simplistic terms (and I mostly realized this when reading the Lady Penitent books), she is a good version of Lolth, with a few tweaks here and there. This might be the reason I don't necessarily like her, even as mainly the only 'in-house' (Drow) alternative to Lolth for Good-aligned Drow. In my mind, as a deity who wants to bring all Drow out from the darkness and into the light, she should be more 'moderate', meaning anyone is eligible to be ordained into the cloth. However, though, at the same time, if there is already an established tradition where only females can become Clerics (as in Judiasm, where only men can be Rabbis), I can accept as much as an answer. A god doesn't exist just on the faith of his or her clergy, but on the faith of all of his or her faithful. Clergy will always be a small proportion of the faithful, and neither Eilistraee nor Vhaeraun have gender restrictions on their faithful. If you were talking about just their clergy, if only their clergy mattered as far as power goes, then you might have a point. Needless to say, Vhaeraun only pays lip service to the idea of gender equality - he actually wants males (or at least his clerics seem to believe that he does anyway) to rule. As far as Eilistraee goes, I don't know what her stand is, but I'd imagine it was more inclusive than exclusive... -Of course. But, a deity's clergy is representative of him/her/itself. Say you were a Neutral Drow, with the choice of joining either Clergy as a lay servant. Would you join Eilistraee's faithful, or Vhaeraun's faithful- understand that you have no particular affinity to Eilistraee's dogma, or Vhaeraun's dogma? Odds are, a male is going to opt to enter into Vhaeraun's service, whereas a female is going to opt to enter into Eilistraee's service, because, at first glance, the opportunities seem greater if you are a man in Vhaeraun's service, and greater in Eiliastraee's service, if you are a female. And...It's late, I am high on pills, and I don't exactly remember where I was going with this...But, there we go with the 'inclusive' and 'exclusive' again. :P -I think I wanted to mention something about Hillary Clinton, and how many men don't specifically like her because she constantly (in interviews and whatnot) surrounds herself with women. Eh, add that where ever it would be relevant in my posts.
Storm_Silverhand 01-09-08, 03:49 AM	Heya, -Even 99.9% leaves that .01%, whereas 100% leaves exactly 0%. Yes, true. But if you look at Vhaeraun's clergy, exactly 0% of his clergy are females who aren't also (formerly) clerics of Lolth. -One theory is that Lolth knows of their activities, but allows it for her own personal amusement. One other theory is that she genuinely does not know, as Vhaeraun prevents the scrying, etc. of the particular Traitor-Priestess from everyone, including Lolth. Certainly a viable theory. They still claim allegiance to Lolth, so I would say that means Vhaeraun couldn't really block them, because if they were... Lolth wouldn't grant them spells. I believe traitor priestesses receive spells from both. And if she doesn't, then I'm sure she'd know of them through the fact that while Vhaeraun can block an individual priestess, he can't block her sense of her temples, holy sites, and other priestesses - the former two are places a traitor priestess might be (and Lolth would know because there'd be this priestess in her holy place that she couldn't sense), and the latter would almost certainly be associated with the traitor at one point or another... Otherwise, what's the point? Traitor priestesses aren't ordinary clergy, they have a very narrow and specific role - disrupting the plans of Lolth and her true priestesses. -Personally, I don't see the appeal others see in her, besides she is a naked Drow chick. In the most simplistic terms (and I mostly realized this when reading the Lady Penitent books), she is a good version of Lolth, with a few tweaks here and there. This might be the reason I don't necessarily like her, even as mainly the only 'in-house' (Drow) alternative to Lolth for Good-aligned Drow. In my mind, as a deity who wants to bring all Drow out from the darkness and into the light, she should be more 'moderate', meaning anyone is eligible to be ordained into the cloth. However, though, at the same time, if there is already an established tradition where only females can become Clerics (as in Judiasm, where only men can be Rabbis), I can accept as much as an answer. A good version of Lolth? Um... okay... I don't see that, but whatever. Eilistraee represents redemption, basically. She is also a deity of beauty, moonlight, and swordwork, and associated with song and music... Given swords are my favorite weapons, I happen to like the moon, music, singing, and beautiful things (shiney!), and that redemption is one of my favorite themes... I'm naturally drawn to her... that she's a beautiful naked drow female doesn't hurt either. ;) :) You know, those religions where clergy can only be male still have female adherents, and in enough numbers that it seems like such a thing doesn't actually hurt the religion. Some women want to see female priests, but there is a surprising number of women who don't. -Of course. But, a deity's clergy is representative of him/her/itself. Say you were a Neutral Drow, with the choice of joining either Clergy as a lay servant. Would you join Eilistraee's faithful, or Vhaeraun's faithful- understand that you have no particular affinity to Eilistraee's dogma, or Vhaeraun's dogma? Odds are, a male is going to opt to enter into Vhaeraun's service, whereas a female is going to opt to enter into Eilistraee's service, because, at first glance, the opportunities seem greater if you are a man in Vhaeraun's service, and greater in Eiliastraee's service, if you are a female. And...It's late, I am high on pills, and I don't exactly remember where I was going with this...But, there we go with the 'inclusive' and 'exclusive' again. :P Well, being who I am, and not taking into account either dogma or portfolio, I know I'd still be more inclined towards Eilistraee's faith than Vhaeraun's, simply because of her gender. So what you're saying is that females would naturally gravitate towards the worship of a female deity, while males would naturally gravitate to the worship of a male deity - given all else being equal... Something I don't disagree with. :) -I think I wanted to mention something about Hillary Clinton, and how many men don't specifically like her because she constantly (in interviews and whatnot) surrounds herself with women. Eh, add that where ever it would be relevant in my posts. Our news is full of Hillary Clinton's win in New Hampshire at the moment. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Part of me is happy, but another part of me is concerned. But what I think about American politics is irrelevant here. Yes, I can see how men would be threatened by Hillary. I'd go on and talk about male privilege (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege) which she could be seen to threaten, but it would be wasted bytes and, once again, isn't really that relevant to this discussion.
Zanan 01-09-08, 04:53 AM	Traitor priestesses aren't ordinary clergy, they have a very narrow and specific role - disrupting the plans of Lolth and her true priestesses. Hm ... it is more like furthering the plans of Vhaeraun or rather increasing his power. Yet, do keep in mind that the only traitor-priestess we know of in detail, i.e. Shakti Hunzrin, does not further anyone's plans but her own. Drow look for (personal) power first and foremost. If they get it from a source they value higher than Lolth or Vhaeraun, they are most likely to grab it.
Alediran 01-09-08, 07:53 AM	LK, in the case you described I would choose Eilistraee over Vhaeraun every day, no matter if I'm male or female.
Fire_Wraith 01-09-08, 08:02 AM	LK: What Storm is saying, if I understand, is that by the literal wording, they are stating that 99.X percent are male, meaning that 00.999(repeating) percent or less are female. Overall, it's a fancy way of saying that the number is extremely small in statistical terms, and almost negligible (but still there). At the risk of further dragging politics into the discussion, I read a rather interesting op-ed piece yesterday regarding Clinton and Obama, and posing the question of just how much gender was still a barrier. The piece (by Gloria Steinem, it should be noted) presented a hypothetical description of a candidate that was exactly similar to Obama, save for the matter of gender. The overall intent was to posit that race was less of a barrier than gender, and it seemed (to me at least) a salient point. What may be truly relevant in discussing deity gender preference with such comparisons, though, is what sort of frames of reference preface the decision. Many people (male and female) dislike Clinton for a number of reasons, including a lot of illogical ones. Some are due to repeated attempts by her opponents to portray her in a negative light, but others may have to do with how our society tends to subconsciously view ambitious women in a very negative light, whereas the same qualities in a man are usually excused. So how does this impact Vhaeraun and Eilistraee? Well, consider that the vast majority of the drow have spent their entire lives living under a strict matriarchy. The only deity allowed was Lolth - if one counts Selvetarm, it must at least be noted that he is completely subservient to Lolth, in terms of general portrayal. Thus, where many surface humans might not have many compunctions about the gender of their deity (it's really only a minor matter to them), it takes on an entirely new meaning for those drow raised in the Underdark. Now let's consider LK's hypothetical undecided drow. I don't think it's difficult to understand why a male, with all of his memories of being repressed by Lolth's Matrons and Priestesses, would tend to be uncomfortable with the notion of another religion that elevated females over males. Even if promised better treatment, he'd likely not trust them (these are drow, after all :D ) Of course, it's also not difficult to understand why the notion of a female goddess and priestesses would appeal to many drow, simply because it is what they are used to. I would hazard that a male that did not harbor extreme grudges over that might well find it perfectly normal, much in the way that many women have no problems with religions that allow only male priests.
Zanan 01-09-08, 09:18 AM	I would hazard that a male that did not harbor extreme grudges over that might well find it perfectly normal, much in the way that many women have no problems with religions that allow only male priests. ... like, e.g. 75% of the Christian faiths, Islam et al? I'd hazzard a guess that you might be correct here.
18DELTA 01-09-08, 11:22 AM	-And, look at what happened to him. While he's a mass of rotting gray and white matter in a pool of stagnant brine. :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: -I achieved godhood. :dancin: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow::bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :dancin: Lord Delta :fight!:
Lord Karsus 01-09-08, 11:40 AM	Yes, true. But if you look at Vhaeraun's clergy, exactly 0% of his clergy are females who aren't also (formerly) clerics of Lolth. -Which doesn't alter the fact that that <1% exists. They still claim allegiance to Lolth, so I would say that means Vhaeraun couldn't really block them, because if they were... Lolth wouldn't grant them spells. I believe traitor priestesses receive spells from both. And if she doesn't, then I'm sure she'd know of them through the fact that while Vhaeraun can block an individual priestess, he can't block her sense of her temples, holy sites, and other priestesses - the former two are places a traitor priestess might be (and Lolth would know because there'd be this priestess in her holy place that she couldn't sense), and the latter would almost certainly be associated with the traitor at one point or another... Otherwise, what's the point? Traitor priestesses aren't ordinary clergy, they have a very narrow and specific role - disrupting the plans of Lolth and her true priestesses. -In Vhaeraun's conversation with Shakti Hunzrin, he claimed to block the presence of everone, save himself- this includes Lolth. Demihuman Deities also implies that Lolth is unaware of what it going on within the heart of her priestess. So... A good version of Lolth? Um... okay... I don't see that, but whatever. Eilistraee represents redemption, basically. She is also a deity of beauty, moonlight, and swordwork, and associated with song and music... Given swords are my favorite weapons, I happen to like the moon, music, singing, and beautiful things (shiney!), and that redemption is one of my favorite themes... I'm naturally drawn to her... that she's a beautiful naked drow female doesn't hurt either. ;) :) -I do, especially after reading the Lady Penitent books. I should amend my statement to be more specific, and say that the Church of Eilistraee reminds me of the Church of Lolth. You know, those religions where clergy can only be male still have female adherents, and in enough numbers that it seems like such a thing doesn't actually hurt the religion. Some women want to see female priests, but there is a surprising number of women who don't. -And, majority of these religions are well known- 'iconic'- around the world: Judiasm, Catholocism, Islam, etc. Majority of the religions that do allow female priestess' are spin-offs of these major religions, with followings in select geographic areas. That is in general, as I am sure there are some larger scale religious movements that allow women priestess'. But, as I said earlier, I have no problems with larger religious operating like this- they have the literal manpower to be able to be picky and selective. Smaller religions, as I said, simply often to not have the manpower to be picky like that, and in my mind, the Church of Eilistraee, as well as the Church of Vhaeraun, the Church of Ghaundaur, and the Church of Kiaransalee all fall into this latter category. I did not include the Church of Selvetarm, because, for all intents and purposes, it is a sham. Well, being who I am, and not taking into account either dogma or portfolio, I know I'd still be more inclined towards Eilistraee's faith than Vhaeraun's, simply because of her gender. So what you're saying is that females would naturally gravitate towards the worship of a female deity, while males would naturally gravitate to the worship of a male deity - given all else being equal... Something I don't disagree with. :) -Alright, good. Now, my point is that by presenting an all-female clergy, Eilistraee seems more exclusive than she necessarily is, pushing away the Drow who recently escape from the tyranny of Lolth. As soon as they escape from Lolthite cities, and make it to the surface, or where ever they are going, what would be the first thing they are greeted by? A bunch of female priestess'- with a different message, of course, but that is regardless of the fact. I know in my mind, I'd be saying, "Great, I'm going from one poison to another poison, here." I'd have no reason to believe that these priestess' are any different from Lolth's priestess'- again, obviously they are spouting a different message, but that's beside the point. Being as that Eilistraee is the deity of renewal, redemption, rescue and all that good stuff for all Drow, having a face that only represents a specific group in Drow society (ie, females) is more of a diservice to her, more than anything else.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-09-08, 12:25 PM	Anyway, the big brouhaha over sexist clergy always seems to be about Eilistraee. Vhaeraun is rarely if ever mentioned in connection to it, and never protested about. Just out of curiosity, if Vhaeraun was CG instead of Evil, and only allowed male clergy, while Eilistraee only allowed female clergy, would you still have a problem? I think that's the main reason why there isn't as much brouhaha over it--Eilistraee is a good goddess of redemption, so certain players are annoyed at the idea (not fact--idea) that Eilistraee and/or her clergy see their goodly male drow characters as somehow less important or less worthy than female characters. Vhaeraun, on the other hand, isn't claiming to be nice, so people probably aren't as confused by the sexism in his religion. That being said, though, that may not be the only reason why Eilistraee always gets singled out.
msatran 01-09-08, 01:06 PM	Well, let me put it this way. If I go to a church of Eilistraee, I am likely to be treated kindly by beautiful naked women who may even have sex with me if I ask nicely. If I go to a church of Vhaeraun, I will be asked to subjugate people and conquer them through trickery. You know...I have a severe logic problem with this part. Why would I want to join the church of Vhaeraun under those conditions. There's a reason his alignnment is EVIL. Most people will chose option A.
Kenzuki 01-09-08, 01:49 PM	Personally I think both sexes should be allowed to be ministers in any given religion in real life. My mother is a preacher just for example as is my father and they both work out well. They actually help each other out as a team, some people don't like it but meh works for them. So I'm the same way when it comes to DnD and the various religions there. So yeah Elistraeee should get some more male clerics because it would help out the priestesses I think. Oh and while we are on the subject, do any deities require a priest/priestess to be celebate in the Realms?
Alediran 01-09-08, 02:09 PM	Well, let me put it this way. If I go to a church of Eilistraee, I am likely to be treated kindly by beautiful naked women who may even have sex with me if I ask nicely. If I go to a church of Vhaeraun, I will be asked to subjugate people and conquer them through trickery. You know...I have a severe logic problem with this part. Why would I want to join the church of Vhaeraun under those conditions. There's a reason his alignnment is EVIL. Most people will chose option A. I know I would. Alediran's girlfriend is a Drow Cleric/Wizard of Eilistraee :cool:
Storm_Silverhand 01-09-08, 04:50 PM	Heya, Oh and while we are on the subject, do any deities require a priest/priestess to be celebate in the Realms? No. Being celibate is solely the choice of the individual priest or priestess. Sex doesn't carry the kind of baggage it does here on Earth.
Fire_Wraith 01-09-08, 05:10 PM	I seem to remember some mention of Cyric priests who were castrated, in one novel or other, though I may be wrong. I know there are examples who were certainly *not* (the one who fathered a child with Ashemmi in Elaine Cunningham's novels, for instance). It might be that it's just a thing of certain sects or groups. Or it could just be due to the fact that Cyric is bats**t crazy. :D Oh, and as far as modern religions are concerned with male vs female priests, yes, most of the largest ones are male-focused. However, this wasn't always the case, and most historical records seem to indicate that priestesses were the rule when it came to early religions. There are some interesting books written on the general theme that the subjugation and demonization of women went hand in hand with wresting away their power in religious settings, and reading between the lines in various books, including the Bible... but that may be getting a bit too off topic, nevermind that I don't want to incite a holy war here by going too far into sensitive topics. ;)
Storm_Silverhand 01-09-08, 05:38 PM	Heya, -Which doesn't alter the fact that that <1% exists. The problem with that less than 1% is that it is a specific kind of female, not just any female. (Hypothetically) What if I want to play a priestess of Vhaeraun who wasn't formerly a priestess of Lolth? Like, say, a female drow who was born in a Vhaeraunite enclave on the surface? Because that less than 1% only represents traitor priestesses, I can't. Effectively to my character, Vhaeraun's clergy is 100% male. That less than 1% makes no difference at all. -In Vhaeraun's conversation with Shakti Hunzrin, he claimed to block the presence of everone, save himself- this includes Lolth. Demihuman Deities also implies that Lolth is unaware of what it going on within the heart of her priestess. So... Now that Vhaeraun has been absorbed by Eilistraee, I wonder what has become of such priestesses? I'm sure Lolth won't tolerate them any more. Anyway, to address the quoted point, that's not how the rules would have it regarding clergy. The deity's senses do extend that far, for a novel to say otherwise is yet another example of the conflicts we often come across between the game rules and novels. Also, from reading the Demihuman Deities entry, Lolth can tell who is a traitor/impostor or not. Where it talks about Rituals to Lolth, there's a passage that mentions that if there's an impostor present that flames consuming offerings can arc to others present, doing a small amount of damage to the faithful, and a larger amount of damage to the impostor. If she can do that, then she can easily spot a blocked priestess. I still believe that Vhaeraun's traitor priestesses exist only at the pleasure of Lolth. Lolth could shut them down with barely a thought. -I do, especially after reading the Lady Penitent books. I should amend my statement to be more specific, and say that the Church of Eilistraee reminds me of the Church of Lolth. I disagree. -And, majority of these religions are well known- 'iconic'- around the world: Judiasm, Catholocism, Islam, etc. Majority of the religions that do allow female priestess' are spin-offs of these major religions, with followings in select geographic areas. That is in general, as I am sure there are some larger scale religious movements that allow women priestess'. But, as I said earlier, I have no problems with larger religious operating like this- they have the literal manpower to be able to be picky and selective. Smaller religions, as I said, simply often to not have the manpower to be picky like that, and in my mind, the Church of Eilistraee, as well as the Church of Vhaeraun, the Church of Ghaundaur, and the Church of Kiaransalee all fall into this latter category. I did not include the Church of Selvetarm, because, for all intents and purposes, it is a sham. Christianity didn't start off big, and very early on in the piece (I think it was when the Bible was being put together), the governing body at the time (in Rome?) decided to exclude female priests... And it even treated females as being inferior to males (you know the whole must obey your husband or else, women must stay quiet in church, women can't teach men, the fall from grace was the result of Eve's original sin). It wasn't a big religion, and they chose to be (very) picky and look where it is today. It looks like, from the LP series, Eilistraee gets around having a small church by the liberal use of raise dead and resurrection spells. -Alright, good. Now, my point is that by presenting an all-female clergy, Eilistraee seems more exclusive than she necessarily is, pushing away the Drow who recently escape from the tyranny of Lolth. As soon as they escape from Lolthite cities, and make it to the surface, or where ever they are going, what would be the first thing they are greeted by? A bunch of female priestess'- with a different message, of course, but that is regardless of the fact. I know in my mind, I'd be saying, "Great, I'm going from one poison to another poison, here." I'd have no reason to believe that these priestess' are any different from Lolth's priestess'- again, obviously they are spouting a different message, but that's beside the point. Being as that Eilistraee is the deity of renewal, redemption, rescue and all that good stuff for all Drow, having a face that only represents a specific group in Drow society (ie, females) is more of a diservice to her, more than anything else. I'd think that many male drow would see Eilistraeean priestesses as an opportunity to exploit, much like Q'arlynd did when he first met them ("Wait a minute, these females are weak!"). Those drow males who are good in heart would probably already know of Eilistraee (through dream visions that the goddess sends pretty much all drow), have a sense that she doesn't see him as inferior (from the visions), and what Q'arlynd saw as weak in her priestesses, the good hearted drow male might be more predisposed towards seeing only how different they are to the priestesses of Lolth. Your arguments are completely discounting the role the deity plays in the whole thing. It's not just about mortal clergy, but also about how the goddess herself embraces drow. I think that's the main reason why there isn't as much brouhaha over it--Eilistraee is a good goddess of redemption, so certain players are annoyed at the idea (not fact--idea) that Eilistraee and/or her clergy see their goodly male drow characters as somehow less important or less worthy than female characters. Vhaeraun, on the other hand, isn't claiming to be nice, so people probably aren't as confused by the sexism in his religion. I get it, it's okay to have a gender exclusive clergy if you're evil. Right. :rolleyes: :) ;) :D
Kenzuki 01-09-08, 06:31 PM	The whole part where Paul says "I suffereth not a woman to teach" part I feel is distorted by alot of folks as they completely forget the other part to that verse which is "or to usurp authority over the man." Of course if you read his other epistles you'll discover people like Pheobe which he calls a Decon which most certainly IS a teacher and he describes her as a very helpful person to himself. Normally Christian denominations that use that verse to disallow female ministers still allow women to be Sunday-Scholl teachers. So which is it? If she's not good enough to preach why let her teach about the Bible? If you go further back into the Hebrew Bible aka The Old Testament you'de discover that omg God has prophetesses! Debrah was both a prophetess and Judge over all of Israel. So if a woman is good enough to be considered a prophetess she should be allowed to be a preacher if she has that calling. That's just my two cents on that subject. Secondly about Celibacy. I don't think alot of early Christianity's celibate priests did so out of a thought that omg sex equals sin. Remember that Celibacy was only instated in the Roman Church under the Authority of Pope Clemont. Where as in the New Testament Paul and the others said that celibacy or marriage is a choice. Celibacy was originally seen as a personal sacrifice that one makes (both male and female) in order to give their lives completely to God. He also says that if one marries he hasn't sinned. Now he does say that he wished that everyone was like him (he was celibate) but he only ment that in the context that when one gets married he no longers belongs to himself but to his wife/or her husband and thus has to give of himself or herself to their spouse. I could see celibate priests/priestesses in the Realms who perhaps wish to give their everything to their deity. Didn't the Greek Goddess Artemis have celibate priestesses as well? It was either her or Diana.
Dzwood 01-09-08, 07:03 PM	:bored: :bored:
Zanan 01-09-08, 07:04 PM	Regarding resurrections ... the LP series so far has probably seen more of them than all FR novels put together. Regarding male and female clergies. It is not so much what clergies allow or what this or that apostle et al said, it is how they actually go about their "business", now and back then. The three main religions of this world, Catholicism, Islam, and Jewism are hardly faiths where you'd see either gender equality or female clergy. Together, they make up about 66 % of all religious people of this planet, even though a small (approx. 1/5) part of the Christian do belong to the more liberal Protestants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_religion Not wanting to point fingers, but sometimes you start to wonder whether those harassing the Lolthites and the Eilistraeens (being two faiths amongst 150) or those claiming Vhaeraun does/did a better job (or was even up to "liberate" the drow) think the same when praying to their real world chosen deity. Just as food for thought. I for one will always support a certain diversity amongst the faiths, a diversity that is not solely determined by feats and domains, but dogmas and culture too. There will obviously one or another player be annoyed by the fact that his or her chosen deity does e.g. not accept the gender of his or her character. But that, in essence, is life!
Fire_Wraith 01-09-08, 07:29 PM	Diana is the Roman name, Artemis is the Greek name - roughly the same deity. I did note the use of raise/ressurection in the LP series. It stuck out to me, mostly because the fact that it almost never shows up in any of the D&D novels, period... and while I can imagine it might be unusual or rare, it's not something that really would be ignored altogether, I should think. Only the elves were ever mentioned as abhorring it completely. Another thing worth noting - I've always inferred the presence of male followers of Eilistraee. However, I've never actually *seen* any portrayed in any novels, nor any as NPCs in sourcebooks, that I recall. Thus, though only the Sworddancer prestige class is outright stated as female-only, one is definitely given the feeling that the entire religion is relatively exclusive, even if nothing outright says it is.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-09-08, 08:43 PM	Oh and while we are on the subject, do any deities require a priest/priestess to be celebate in the Realms? Not that I can think of offhand...and if I came across an example of that, I'm pretty sure I'd remember it.
Zanan 01-10-08, 02:41 AM	Diana is the Roman name, Artemis is the Greek name - roughly the same deity. Common misconception ;). While the Romans did adopt lots of deities, Diana was already in place. Have look at this quite decent bit of info (and look at the pics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_%28mythology%29 BTW, within the Realms, she is rarely shown with a bow, yet in Evermeet she does her greatest bit of action with exactly that weapon.
Storm_Silverhand 01-10-08, 02:51 AM	Heya, I think we probably shouldn't get too much more into the whole Real World Religions bit, since it will invariably offend someone... But I do have two more things to say, that are tangentially related, but more on topic than not... 1) When I answered Kenzuki's question about celibacy in the Realms, I was half wrong. I said "Sex doesn't carry the kind of baggage it does here on Earth." Now anyone with half an ounce of smarts knows that the reason some of the major sects of certain faiths have a vow of celibacy has more to do with inheritance and succession than with sex. Certain churches wanted to keep their wealth within the church and not let it be farmed out to sons who were not in the church. Likewise they really didn't want certain positions within the church to become hereditary. Hence the vows of celibacy (no sex, no offspring). (There were other issues involved too, I'm sure, and some of them may have even latched onto the reason I outline in the paragraph below this one.) Other faiths have celibacy for their clergy because their dogma states that being too connected to the material world prevents advancement in the spiritual world. I think it might be interesting to see what a Sharessan might say to that! So the answer is... "No. Celibacy is a decision that is up to each individual priest. As far as I know, no church in Faerun requires celibacy." 2) As has been pointed out, many RL religions have a gender restriction on their clergy, and none of them sprang into being as large religions to start with. This goes to show us that restricting clergy to one gender or the other doesn't really harm the development of a church (there's a lot more involved than just the church, too, you need to take the whole society into account). And that's all she wrote... ;) (I'll shut up now!)
Arbourean 01-10-08, 03:12 AM	Heya, Also, from reading the Demihuman Deities entry, Lolth can tell who is a traitor/impostor or not. Where it talks about Rituals to Lolth, there's a passage that mentions that if there's an impostor present that flames consuming offerings can arc to others present, doing a small amount of damage to the faithful, and a larger amount of damage to the impostor. If she can do that, then she can easily spot a blocked priestess. I still believe that Vhaeraun's traitor priestesses exist only at the pleasure of Lolth. Lolth could shut them down with barely a thought. I agree. Lolth elevated Shakti to high priestess precisely because she contemplated following Vhaeraun and Lolth decided to make her a double agent, so to speak.
Suin Bahhar 01-10-08, 07:51 AM	There is a Diana like clergy of Mielikki called the Treespeakers who consists of elven maidens who've promised purity (chastity en celibacy) for 20 years. They are monitored by the rest of Mielikki's church and granted elven chainmail, elven cloaks and a unicorn compagnon when rising up into the higher ranks of the clergy. Hmmmm. HOT. They are unapprouchable though. *new personal quest woe a treespeaker*
Kenzuki 01-10-08, 08:29 AM	I can see that Storm Silverhand is a very wise and knowledgeble person. I shall now follow her every move and absorb in the coolness that is Storm. I have another question that is semi-related. I'm toying with the idea of downloading Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons and Demihuman Deities from RPG Drivethru or something. But the question is if they are somehow deleted or whatever would I have to pay for them again? The reason is I really enjoy reading up on the gods and lore and stuff and downloading them is cheaper than buying the books themselves.
18DELTA 01-10-08, 12:35 PM	I can see that Storm Silverhand is a very wise and knowledgeble person. I shall now follow her every move and absorb in the coolness that is Storm. -Stalker!!!:D I have another question that is semi-related. I'm toying with the idea of downloading Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons and Demihuman Deities from RPG Drivethru or something. But the question is if they are somehow deleted or whatever would I have to pay for them again? The reason is I really enjoy reading up on the gods and lore and stuff and downloading them is cheaper than buying the books themselves. -Just dont EVER DELETE them ok.;) LORD DELTA:fight!:
GreenKnight 01-10-08, 03:13 PM	I'm toying with the idea of downloading Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons and Demihuman Deities from RPG Drivethru or something. But the question is if they are somehow deleted or whatever would I have to pay for them again? The reason is I really enjoy reading up on the gods and lore and stuff and downloading them is cheaper than buying the books themselves. You got five total downloads for each purchase. So if you download it once, and then after some time delete it, you can log in and download it again up to four more times. Although just in case, it's always best to make copies. Like putting them on an external harddrive or something.
Dzwood 01-10-08, 04:30 PM	It Says in GHotR the whats his name the God o slime and Ooz escapes the Deamonweb Pits for Deep Someplace. <Good Research hmmm?!?!> So I guess we can take that to mean that he lives past book 3
Kenzuki 01-10-08, 06:06 PM	That's great, because I've always liked Gaunadaur for some reason. He just seems more than meets the eye like Jergal.
Dzwood 01-10-08, 06:27 PM	Watch him survive LP3 and then get lumped in as an aspect of Mondar all along. Course that just means he was defeated by Finder and Loth is pretending to be him. All hail Lord Retcon
Kenzuki 01-10-08, 06:34 PM	Watch him survive LP3 and then get lumped in as an aspect of Mondar all along. Course that just means he was defeated by Finder and Loth is pretending to be him. All hail Lord Retcon Lorelol?
Zanan 01-10-08, 07:24 PM	Watch him survive LP3 and then get lumped in as an aspect of Mondar all along. Course that just means he was defeated by Finder and Loth is pretending to be him. All hail Lord Retcon Ghaunadaur, Moander, and Lolth ... just to keep you up to date with their spelling. The first was always been around, never truly a drow deity, but one of slimes and oozes, inherently evil methinks. Lolth used him, after cowing him into submission, and according to TGHotR, he retreats from the Demonweb Pits and his realm there to pasture new, as Lolth does not succeed in taking over his power. As much a deity without much use as Juiblex or the fungi queen. Moander was a deity of rot and corruption which had not much to do with Ghaunadaur, but whose portfolios were split amongst Finder and Lolth.
Storm_Silverhand 01-10-08, 07:33 PM	Heya, I can see that Storm Silverhand is a very wise and knowledgeble person. I shall now follow her every move and absorb in the coolness that is Storm. Uhh... I dunno what to say. *blush* Just bear in mind I know a little bit about a lot of things, and I just bluff the rest. :) So at any moment in time, I could be proven wrong. :embarrass
Selvarin 01-10-08, 07:54 PM	Ghaunadaur would be better off taking over Moander's (remaining) portfolio. I don't care if that part gets retconned. His appeal is a little broader than just drow already, that's probably one reason why he survived.
Dzwood 01-11-08, 01:07 AM	I just looked at my last post!!! Sorry it is half gibberish. I posted it while at work and I am not suposed to be online so I was in a hurry.....lol but i see u seem to have goten what I ment. The slime ball <Ghaunadaur> and the big pile of nasty <Moander> just seem really similar to me if it were not for the Loth thing I could see them getting retconned together....Hell and I would not put it past them <WotC>to Ignore it...oh well
Zanan 01-11-08, 08:07 AM	Ghaunadaur would be better off taking over Moander's (remaining) portfolio. I don't care if that part gets retconned. His appeal is a little broader than just drow already, that's probably one reason why he survived. The point is that is have never been really established why he ended up amongst the drow deities anyway. Sure enough, Lolth utilzed him and a drow city venerates him more than the others, but that does not make him a drow deity. Then again, I can't think of a portfolio of Moander that would suit Ghaunadaur.
Kenzuki 01-11-08, 08:57 AM	I thought Finder didn't claim all of Moander's Portfolios. Didn't he have the following: Rotting Death, Decay, Corruption. Any one of those would fit a deity of slime.
Zanan 01-11-08, 11:05 AM	I thought Finder didn't claim all of Moander's Portfolios. Didn't he have the following: Rotting Death, Decay, Corruption. Any one of those would fit a deity of slime. You named those that Lolth took. Finder got "Cycle of life" from rot to rebirth, or the like. None of these I would give to an elder elemental evil, who is essentially Juiblex within Realmspace.
Selvarin 01-11-08, 12:46 PM	It's all slimy-rotty to me, so Ghaunadaur would work better representing it. Lolth can develop her own twisted beast cults to lure elves in if that's her gig. *shrug*
Kenzuki 01-11-08, 01:26 PM	Hrmmm I see Lolth as having the following portfolios, so what do you mean? Assassins, chaos, darkness, drow, evil, spiders
Zanan 01-11-08, 03:15 PM	Hrmmm I see Lolth as having the following portfolios, so what do you mean? Assassins, chaos, darkness, drow, evil, spiders Fair enough. Demihuman Deities stated that she took exactly those mentioned in the above post when Moander got "killed". Why those where not listed in F&P and the like, well don't ask me, but those responsible for all this books. And why should she develop beast cults, Selvarin, beast cults no like-minded elf would take up, when she can do it under Moander's guise?
Kenzuki 01-11-08, 10:11 PM	Fair enough. Demihuman Deities stated that she took exactly those mentioned in the above post when Moander got "killed". Why those where not listed in F&P and the like, well don't ask me, but those responsible for all this books. And why should she develop beast cults, Selvarin, beast cults no like-minded elf would take up, when she can do it under Moander's guise? Well you always go with the newest source so I guess she doesn't have those. It's not even mentioned in War of the Spider Queen.
Selvarin 01-11-08, 10:50 PM	Zanan, what is more approachable: A faith bound to a mound of shambling filth or a cult that (as an example) teaches the superiority and beauty of spiders, of which there are many types in the woods? The worship of the spider as a hunter, the spinner of webs (in some spiders' cases), vs. rot and corruption. I'm talking about themes here, and about what I think would be more attractive. I never found Moander's cult to be that viable or seductive for deviant/vulnerable elves to turn to, regardless of designers' rationales for Lolth taking it over. Among elves, monstrous spider types in particular are tied in with Lolth but what if she decided to try influencing a band or tribe here and there with a different name (as she's tried using Moander's) and pushing non-evil/non-drow themes as part of this worship? Not all elves are the same, some do live on the fringe including those who are closer to the hunter-gather type. Some could learn to revere spiders and worship 'Halakai' (a made-up placeholder name here) without even realizing Lolth is the one behind it. She would gain new followers and, if she so chose, eventually bring them more fully under her talons, much in the same way that Malar took hold of the Blue Bear Uthgardt barbarians by taking over/masquerading as their totem. (I imagine they would still be hostile to drow, and that could well amuse Lolth further as she loves to play her followers against each other and would be loathe to tip her hand.) Again, this is my opinion. Not trying to masquerade it as something 'official' from 1e/2e/3e FR. I find it interesting and think it has more RP possibilities than Mr. Rotty.
Zanan 01-12-08, 04:44 AM	Well you always go with the newest source so I guess she doesn't have those. It's not even mentioned in War of the Spider Queen. The problem with new sources is that a) more often than not they are abbreviated versions of older books and b ) that unless the ydo not retcon old material directly, the old material remains in place. IMHO, F&P is just a minimized collection of three whole books, i.e. the F&A series. And, BTW, F&P actually states what Lolth took off Moander and that she still carries that. You'd have to read beyond the Portfolio line though. ;) Selvarin ... I see you point, rest assured. Yet, corruption is part of the very nature of Lolth as well. In any case, we don't need to stretch our imagination that much. Lolth's overall aim with regard to the drow is clear enough. If she sees it fit to corrupt other people or races to her worship - even under another guise - there is no reason to think that she would leave such an opportunity behind. No matter what she usually does or like. No need to imagine her as beeing solely spider-/drowcentric or the like. (NB: Not much different with Cyric and Leira, for example. I doubt that the Black Sun has/had much to do with Illusionists and liers etc. before killing her.)
Gloomweave 01-13-08, 07:33 PM	Good read. I enjoyed reading about Halistras brother, but i hav'nt read the second book yet. I passed the first book onto my group and blurted the spoilers out in my aggrivation. Um... The death of those deities kills our campaign. Don't like it. I read somewhere on the boards the name for a gammer that hates change, I guess thats me. I feel the man -WoTC- is pushing 4th on me not to "better" the game but to force me to buy books. Now lets re-do the gods of the realms to further the buy more books theme. I will take what I want from those and any further novels, much as I have in the past. I still enjoy them but if any gods die in my game, my players will have a hand in it. The Realms are vast, with so many races and cultures I dont see the need to go changing everything up to keep it interesting. IMO.
Kenzuki 01-13-08, 07:46 PM	Good read. I enjoyed reading about Halistras brother, but i hav'nt read the second book yet. I passed the first book onto my group and blurted the spoilers out in my aggrivation. Um... The death of those deities kills our campaign. Don't like it. I read somewhere on the boards the name for a gammer that hates change, I guess thats me. I feel the man -WoTC- is pushing 4th on me not to "better" the game but to force me to buy books. Now lets re-do the gods of the realms to further the buy more books theme. I will take what I want from those and any further novels, much as I have in the past. I still enjoy them but if any gods die in my game, my players will have a hand in it. The Realms are vast, with so many races and cultures I dont see the need to go changing everything up to keep it interesting. IMO. It only kills your campaign if you let it.
Gloomweave 01-14-08, 05:28 PM	As I said I will take what I want from the books. So I wont let it kill my game. Our game has a lot to do with these deities. If they die things change, alot. And in a direction I, and my players don't like.
Kenzuki 01-15-08, 05:18 PM	Zanna, I just got a hold of a pdf of Demihuman Deities and her listed portfolios are. Spiders, evil, darkness, chaos, assassins, the drow race. I see where it says she assumed his portfolios or whatever but why were they not included in that list?
Zanan 01-16-08, 04:30 AM	Zanna, I just got a hold of a pdf of Demihuman Deities and her listed portfolios are. Spiders, evil, darkness, chaos, assassins, the drow race. I see where it says she assumed his portfolios or whatever but why were they not included in that list? Treasure that copy of DD, it is the best book you can find on the "demihuman" deities. As for the portfolios, just ask the author of that book. Maybe the space for here portfolio list was to small?