Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Green Elven Vampire 12-07-07, 06:54 PM	I hate to be the harbinger of terrible news, but a recent post by Rich Baker has confirmed that besides Corellon Larethian, The Seldarine are no more in 4ED forgotten realms. Sehanine Moonbow is going to be the elven name for the Faerunian goddess Selune. He goes on to say that most other deities of The Seldarine will also just be elven names of various human Faerunian gods and goddesses. After reading this ludicrous statement I almost vomited in my mouth. So basically 30,000 years of elven history has been erased in the blink of an eye. The deific events in Evermeet: Island of Elves are just going to be ignored, and all the wonderful, years and years of elven history apparently never happened I suppose. So all your Clerics and rangers of Solonor, Sehanine, Hanali, Rillifane, Erevan Ilesere, Labelas, Deep Sashelas and the other members of the elven pantheon are just going to have to worship the human faerunian gods. WoTc has just hammered the last nail in the 4ED coffin for many, many consumer fans. Die $ED, DIE!!
Arbourean 12-07-07, 07:25 PM	Somewhere in the Abyss, Lolth laughs maniacally.
Shemeska the Marauder 12-07-07, 07:28 PM	[bleeding sarcasm] The PR continues to be handled in a well formulated manner by the 4e marketing folks... [/bleeding sarcasm] I don't even like elves all that much, but come on, geez.
Redrake 12-07-07, 07:37 PM	Perhaps there won't be any elves left to regret it. Only half-elves.:D
Kiioro 12-07-07, 07:41 PM	Hanali? Hanali?? HANAAAAAALI!!! ******GAME OVER****** :weep:
Hanali-in-Love 12-07-07, 08:21 PM	I just can't believe it. I haven't liked a single thing I've read about 4ED and now this has to happen? This is worse than the new rule that you can only cast Ray spells from Wands in 4ED. Bullocks! Rubbish! Drastic changes made by senior marketing idiots. To retcon the seldarine is stupendous! I can't imagine any one actually spending money on 4ED after all the changes they've made, and now that the seldarine no longer exist I give up.
Meldread 12-07-07, 09:02 PM	If Sehanine Moonbow is Selune does that make Lolth Shar? This was one change I could have done without, and if I decide to play in 4E FR it won't be true in my Realm's.
Green Elven Vampire 12-07-07, 09:06 PM	I just can't believe it. I haven't liked a single thing I've read about 4ED and now this has to happen? This is worse than the new rule that you can only cast Ray spells from Wands in 4ED. Bullocks! Rubbish! Drastic changes made by senior marketing idiots. To retcon the seldarine is stupendous! I can't imagine any one actually spending money on 4ED after all the changes they've made, and now that the seldarine no longer exist I give up. I hear you, and I agree. I will be staying with my 3 and 3.5ED. As will a plethora of gaming friends and DM's alike. I never thought it would ever come to this. Like Msatran posted in another thread... The Seldarine are now Tofu deities. And D&D has lost a serious amount of consumer sales with this joke of an edition.
The_Shaman 12-07-07, 10:20 PM	You know, I remember reading in one article that D&D isn't Ed Greenwood's game, or Gary Gygax's game, or Keith Baker's game: it's your game. When 4E comes, it will be just a set of mechanics, like d20 is now and THAC0 was 15 years ago. The mechanics, by itself, changes little. Essentially, the main problem the supposed new edition will bring for our Realms games is that there will be less support for them as some of the NPCs or groups we use will not be statted. This is a problem, but it's different than saying that 4th edition will be incompatible with the current feel of the Realms. Personally, I'm more interested in there being support for the current state of the realms - i.e. rules on the deities/groups/characters as they are, not as the scriptwriters think they ought to be. If the new edition has good rules on clerics, then I can use those for my cleric of Mystra - who, by the way, only dies if your campaigns have her die.
GreenKnight 12-07-07, 11:33 PM	Yeah, I think that when 4E comes out, I'll be making my own Realms. This is getting to be a bit to much. They come up with the Spellplague in order not to do a retcon (Like 3E saying that Sorcerers were always just there), but then they retcon things, anyway? And while I generally like the idea of gods not being limited to worshippers of a specific race, and appearing differently depending on the worshipper (Not a new thing. Gond sometimes shows up as a human and other times he's a Gnome), but to merge two different gods together and then say they were always the same guy? Come on. Talos /= Gruumsh and Gruumsh /= Talos. Nevermind that there's no reason whatsoever for their names to be different. How hard would it be for Gruumsh to whisper into the ears of his priests and say "Psst, my name's GRUUMSH, not Talos. Stop saying it wrong"? Geeze, out of all the routes they could've taken in order to make the Realms reflect the 4E rules set, it seems like they've taken the most torturous route possible.
Green Elven Vampire 12-08-07, 12:20 AM	And that's why 4ED sales are going to be the lowest in D&D history. At least for FR products if not for core D&D.
Stigger 12-08-07, 01:06 AM	I've kinda gone beyond caring... now I just come around to see if they could possibly make things worse. I find it amusing when they exceed my expectations almost daily...
Redrake 12-08-07, 01:18 AM	I've kinda gone beyond caring... now I just come around to see if they could possibly make things worse. I find it amusing when they exceed my expectations almost daily... That's because they are now advertising the new rules. Meaning, they only tell us the good parts. Wait until you see the bad parts.:D
Stigger 12-08-07, 01:40 AM	lol, what a horrifying though... :blink: :D
Purple Dragon Knight 12-08-07, 02:30 AM	Welcome to the club Stigger! :D Wonderful things can happen once you go beyond caring. For instance, I realized that all the money I will save by not buying anything spawned by WotC from this day forward, invested monthly and assuming a continuous 8% portfolio growth, will result in at least $378,000 extra in my registered savings plan by the time I retire (and that's including FR novels too: oh yeah, I'm going completely boycott commando here)
Hanali-in-Love 12-08-07, 03:20 AM	Rich Baker also mentioned that they are going to retcon minor deities like Clangeddin and Brandobaris. Clangeddin a minor deity? What planet are these designers from?
msatran 12-08-07, 03:25 AM	Yeah. Clangeddin in my game is THE most popular dwarf god among PC's and their cohorts. Moradin comes in at a distant third.
msatran 12-08-07, 03:29 AM	Hanali-in-Love asked me to repost this here, so I will. Originally Posted by msatran View Post 10) Corellon Larethian. While in standard lore Corellon was male, in the Realms Corellon retained its classic presence as Male, Female, Both, and Neither. Sorry, whoever said that above, but Corellon is multigendered AND multisexual. The classic god of ELVES, they even thought to change THAT! What were they thinking!!!!????? 9) Bane! I cannot speak enough of how happy I was that they brought Bane back, even though it kind of ticked me off that pretty much anyone or anything in the Realms was effectively ressurrectable. Tyranny, tyranny, tyranny. Bane was cool in first edition and he's still cool now. Unfortunately, they're making him a war god. WHAT? He was never a war god! 8) Chauntea! You've got to be kidding me, right? What about all those cool other gods? Well, those cool other gods can't hold a candle to Chauntea, because she has more worshippers than ANYONE. Every farmer, every rancher, every peasant in the world probably worships THIS deity in preference to all others. 7) The Celestial Bureaucracy: People forget about the Celestial Bureacracy, because they have a local god for everything, but it's real fun with your asian characters, when you really want something, to burn paper money, have incense swirl around your head, and bow to a spirit tablet. 6) Eilistraee: How can you not love a redemptive goddess who establishes roadside hostels where beautiful priestesses of all sorts give you "succor" Can I take one home? 5) Meilikki: How can you not love a hot nature goddess whose followers roam the wilderness dispensing justice and kicking butt? Even her servitor god, Gwaeron Windstrom, rocks! Bad boys, what you gonna do when the Steelsword comes for you...? 4) Tymora: Tymora attains her position by virtue of the fact that Dungeon Masters love her. Why do Dungeon Masters love Tymora? Because occasionally, Dungeon Masters see Tymoran worshippers do INSANELY STUPID things. Games are much more fun for the DM when they say "Are you sure you want to take this action?" and the player still says yes! 3) Amaunator: Cold despite his heat, alive despite his death, the relentless eye of the burning sun blazes down upon Faerun whether you want it or not. With Lathander, it's worship me or else. With this guy, you are sinners in the hands of an angry god, and you know it from the get go! I love it when the gods are demanding! Plus, all of my top three choices can have both good and evil worshippers, which is an additional level of trouble. 2) Gond: WHAT? Gond at Number Two? You've gotta be kidding me, right? Well, the moral difficulties of worshipping Gond can be severe if you're good aligned, that's why. If you're a good priest of Gond, your archenemy can be a guy who animates bone sculptures, is sanctioned by the church, and you can't touch him on holy ground. Because he's a priest of Gond, too, and you will constantly face that onus until either you or he kicks the bucket, and then you have to face your OWN inquisition. Fun and games! But everything I said about Gond goes double for this wonderful deity... 1) The Red Knight: WHAT? He picked a Demipower? Vytharius! What the heck is that, you say? Well, like Amaunator, above, the Red Knight can have Paladins! The Red Knight can also have blackguards. (So can Amaunator, but I haven't ever seen one, and you probably won't either) This is why I am starting to hate 4th edition, because it takes away a lot of that uniqueness. Now, you have problems, because if you hang out in your own churches too much, you have the distasteful prospect of chatting with people who not only are wicked, but who might sacrifice your head and heart to your deity! And in their own temple, they just might get away with it, too...At the core of this religion is an ethic unlike any other in the Realms. Plus, ladies in full plate armor are hot beyond imagining. Remember the cover of the second edition hardcover campaign guide? Mee-yow! Oh, and Phelf, a Ranger/Cleric of Solonor is REALLY cool. That's why you play an Elf Cleric. Not only am I an amazing cleric, but I'm also an obscene archer! And my domains give me half the feats I need! I hate to quote myself, but I just want to show you what this looks like in 4e. 10) Corellon Larethian 9) Bane 8) Chauntea 7) Tofu, all of this will be gone. 6) Tofu 5) If Meilikki is not absorbed into Silvanus, she will still be there, otherwise, Tofu. 4) Tymora 3) Tofu 2) Gond 1) Tofu Half of my favorite deities become absorbed into the giant tofu monster. Please, Wizards, undo this deific nonsense NOW!
AskaniPsion 12-08-07, 03:32 AM	Sehanine Moonbow is going to be the elven name for the Faerunian goddess Selune. Okay I have kept a VERY open mind on the changes happening cause of 4E but this has gone beyond. All the classic D&D lore down the tubes. Seems to me the Realms just won't be the Realms anymore. Well there goes my 2nd all time deity (Sehanine) down the drain.....so does that mean Corellon and Selune are now consorts??? What an utter disappointment....well if I play in 4E realms...I am still using Sehanine the ELF.
Hanali-in-Love 12-08-07, 03:44 AM	Thanks Msatran. I just find that post of yours so true it's silly. Tofu gods!
farfairer 12-08-07, 04:09 AM	I have been trying to avoid posting, but I just need to chime in now. So basically they are saying that Sehanine Moonbow is gone and Selune has taken her name? Have I gotten this right? So what now the gods in FR are some strange mix between Hedra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_White_Female) (Jennifer Jason Leigh) from Single White Female and the Absorbaloff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Doctor_Who_villains) from Doctor Who? This is stupid.
GreenKnight 12-08-07, 04:23 AM	No, they're saying that Selune and Sehanine Moonbow are the same god, but worshipped under different names. Personally, I like the idea of gods being cross racial. Take Bahamut, for instance. It'd be interesting to see him worshipped by good dragons, humans, elves, dragonborn, and air genasi, and his appearance differing depending on the worshipper (Appearing as a platinum dragon to dragons, as a human to humans, as an elf to elves, as a dragonborn to dragonborn, as a wind elemental to air genasi, etc). However, they're trying to force the Forgotten Realms into that mold, and it just doesn't work. Sehanine Moonbow is not Selune, Gruumsh is not Talos, etc. Nor does it make sense for a god to have different names, even amongst other races. It isn't all that hard for a god to tell his clerics what his name is. So if Gruumsh really were to become a crossracial god, worshipped by humans, then they should be calling him Gruumsh, too. So why's he being called Talos? I can see elves worshipping Selune, and thinking of her as an elf and having her appear as an elf to them, but to say that she was Sehanine Moonbow the whole time? Which is especially ridiculous, because the Elven gods exist on numerous other D&D worlds. So is Selune worshipped on all those worlds, too? And if so, then why aren't humans worshipping her under her human name of Selune? Or how about Gruumsh? Why aren't humans worshipping Gruumsh under his human name of Talos on Oerth? Why is it only Faerun where they seemed to have decided that they want to start getting worshipped by humans, and so ended up creating human personas to be worshipped under?
Puritan13 12-08-07, 04:37 AM	No, they're saying that Selune and Sehanine Moonbow are the same god, but worshipped under different names. Personally, I like the idea of gods being cross racial. Take Bahamut, for instance. It'd be interesting to see him worshipped by good dragons, humans, elves, dragonborn, and air genasi, and his appearance differing depending on the worshipper (Appearing as a platinum dragon to dragons, as a human to humans, as an elf to elves, as a dragonborn to dragonborn, as a wind elemental to air genasi, etc). However, they're trying to force the Forgotten Realms into that mold, and it just doesn't work. Sehanine Moonbow is not Selune, Gruumsh is not Talos, etc. Nor does it make sense for a god to have different names, even amongst other races. It isn't all that hard for a god to tell his clerics what his name is. So if Gruumsh really were to become a crossracial god, worshipped by humans, then they should be calling him Gruumsh, too. So why's he being called Talos? I can see elves worshipping Selune, and thinking of her as an elf and having her appear as an elf to them, but to say that she was Sehanine Moonbow the whole time? Which is especially ridiculous, because the Elven gods exist on numerous other D&D worlds. So is Selune worshipped on all those worlds, too? And if so, then why aren't humans worshipping her under her human name of Selune? Or how about Gruumsh? Why aren't humans worshipping Gruumsh under his human name of Talos on Oerth? Why is it only Faerun where they seemed to have decided that they want to start getting worshipped by humans, and so ended up creating human personas to be worshipped under?You pose some very good questions here. The only answer that I could conceive in regards to why they aren't using their human names on other human worlds is: Perhaps the Realms will once again have a separate, different cosmology. Or perhaps its a mandate from Ao. In answer to the Talos/Gruumsh human worshippers question: I can't really see humans following an orc god, and vice versa either. Perhaps a different name/persona was necessary to secure their worship. All in all, this still doesn't do anything to sour me on the upcomming RSE. I'm actually looking forward to either playing through it, or running it. The adventure hooks that come to mind when thinking about the ramifications of some of the changes really could be used for quite a while. What I am soured on is the upcomming mechanics changes. I'm having trouble calling 4e "D&D". The name just doesn't seem to fit with the game I've come to know. The change from 2e to 3e was a welcome change. 2e had become clunky and hard to work with. Bad mechanics being published by TSR had made our games worse and worse. That hasn't happened yet in 3.5. The 4e change isn't necessary for us yet.
Fabius Maximus 12-08-07, 06:54 AM	First of all: Could someone please place a link to said quote? Unsurprisingly, I am not concerned about this decision, for two reasons. 1. There are many examples of multi-pantheon gods in the Realms, and even one instance where three goddesses have one single incarnation and can be worshipped as such. It is no stretch of imagination that it would be the same with other gods. 2. Removing or merging the actual divine entities doesn't remove their flavour. Your characters can still worship them and say that they are indeed different. It would be bad only if they retcon the flavour texts from the 2e deities books.
Hanali-in-Love 12-08-07, 06:55 AM	4ED forgotten realms is just bad all around. The elven sub races have been retconned just as the dwarves and other demi humans have. Rods, wands and staffs are taking the place of ray spells, missile spells and enchantment spells. Paladins are no longer warriors of justice and clerics are just a plain mess. The demi human deities are all but gone, and the only good thing to come of this is that I will save a ton of money NOT buying any WoTc 4ED products. I feel like I just switched to Gieco!
Hanali-in-Love 12-08-07, 07:00 AM	First of all: Could someone please place a link to said quote? Unsurprisingly, I am not concerned about this decision, for two reasons. 1. There are many examples of multi-pantheon gods in the Realms, and even one instance where three goddesses have one single incarnation and can be worshipped as such. It is no stretch of imagination that it would be the same with other gods. 2. Removing or merging the actual divine entities doesn't remove their flavour. Your characters can still worship them and say that they are indeed different. It would be bad only if they retcon the flavour texts from the 2e deities books. What do you think they are doing Fabius?? They have retconned the entire history of the elven pantheon. The history in the 2ED demi human deities book is being nulled. All the fluff from that book is being washed and hung.
Hanali-in-Love 12-08-07, 08:41 AM	Here is one of several quotes from Rich Baker. Originally Posted by WotC_RichBaker View Post Sorry, but I'm not at liberty to tell you exactly what's going on with each specific deity yet. I hope to be able to say more soon. I will say this much: We think that some of the deities in demihuman pantheons might really be Faerunian deities "known by another name." For example, is Sehanine just the elven name for Selune? Or is Sehanine an avatar of Selune? And other deities in those demihuman pantheons sure look like mythological heroes (read: demigods) as opposed to gods. I've cited the example of Clangeddin a few times. So, I guess to answer your question honestly: No, expect changes to the Seldarine. Some will be revealed to be demigods/"patron saints" in Corellon's celestial retinue, and others might be revealed to be... something else It sickens me to no end. None of this corresponds with the printed cannon history of the seldarine for the past 2 editions. Revealed to be demigods? This makes no sense in any way. It's retcon! Excuse me, I'm getting sick. :yuck: :censored: :ghosted:
sfdragon 12-08-07, 09:02 AM	hands his fellow elf a bow to puke in. not to mention that hanali was in the realms before Sune but make no different i too will save money on not buying 4e stuff. well outside the phb maybe
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 10:52 AM	-You all do also realize that this proves that the commonly believed creation myth is not true, as Sehanine Moonbow is a interloper deity. Thus, she could not have originated in Realmspace. Thus, Shar and Selūne never formed from the void, created Chauntea and Mystryl, and so on.
Fabius Maximus 12-08-07, 11:57 AM	What do you think they are doing Fabius?? They have retconned the entire history of the elven pantheon. The history in the 2ED demi human deities book is being nulled. All the fluff from that book is being washed and hung. No need to get hysterical. I only read about some changes there. We don't know exactly what is going to be changed. Btw, the old flavour can still be treated as true. It's a creation myth, for example. It's about what the peoples on Faerun believe, not what the players think is true (or right). Also, Sehanine and Selune could have merged into one goddess. All the really interesting and important stuff like the stories about the gods and their relationships remains valid. Who gives a damn about divine ranks, really?
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 12:03 PM	Btw, the old flavour can still be treated as true. It's a creation myth, for example. It's about what the peoples on Faerun believe, not what the players think is true (or right). -That is always how I treat it. However, many of "those who be" take this particular creation myth to be literal, to be fact. Thus, now it cannot, dispelling their notions.
Redrake 12-08-07, 12:18 PM	Rich Baker also mentioned that they are going to retcon minor deities like Clangeddin and Brandobaris. Clangeddin a minor deity? What planet are these designers from? Makes me wonder how are they going to retcon a deity that uses twin axes. As far as I know Clangeddin is the only one who does that.
GreenKnight 12-08-07, 01:18 PM	In answer to the Talos/Gruumsh human worshippers question: I can't really see humans following an orc god, and vice versa either. Perhaps a different name/persona was necessary to secure their worship. That argument makes sense, but I doubt it's one which the designers have considered. Especially since according to a Design & Development article, there'll be Dwarves who worship Corellon Larethian. Now if ever there was a case to be made for a god being worshipped under a different name, then that would be it. But I didn't see any hint in that article that those Dwarves worshipped Corellon under a different name. So if Dwarves can bring themselves to worship Corellon Larethian, then surely Humans can bring themselves to worship Gruumsh? Especially if they're barbaric humans. I doubt very much that they'd care that Gruumsh is also worshipped by Orcs, especially if in visions sent to his priests, Gruumsh appeared as a human to them. All in all, this still doesn't do anything to sour me on the upcoming RSE. I'm actually looking forward to either playing through it, or running it. The adventure hooks that come to mind when thinking about the ramifications of some of the changes really could be used for quite a while. I wasn't thrilled at all with them when I first heard of them, and I'm still not. There're easier ways to explain the changes in the magic rules then killing Mystra. But I figured "this is stuff that can be undone through a storyline". And a part of me loves to unravel bad plotlines and make something good out of them. So Mystra's ridiculous murder, for instance, can become a story about Mystra's resurrection. Then you can have Cyric who, up til that point, was relaxing pretty comfortably in his cell, when he suddenly learns that 'the ***** is back'. Up til that point, he viewed his 1,000 year prison sentence as a vacation. Now it really feels like a prison, as he HAS to get out of it immediately so he can murder Mystra, again. That would be a good result from the current plotline, as you'd have Mystra rebuilding her church while acclimating herself to the changes wrought to magic by her (temporary) death, while Cyric is raging in his cell, looking for any and every way there is to get out of it so he can kill her, again. However, this most recent stuff I'm really fuming about, because it's a complete retcon involving numerous characters, merging two distinct individuals into one. And that's a mite harder to undo through storytelling. What I am soured on is the upcoming mechanics changes. I'm having trouble calling 4e "D&D". The name just doesn't seem to fit with the game I've come to know. The change from 2e to 3e was a welcome change. 2e had become clunky and hard to work with. Bad mechanics being published by TSR had made our games worse and worse. That hasn't happened yet in 3.5. The 4e change isn't necessary for us yet. I'm the exact opposite in that while I'm not happy about the changes to the Realms, I'm extremely happy with the changes to the rules set in 4E. It may not have happened for you, but I've been getting soured on 3E for a while. Lots of niggling things here and there which have just been adding up into one big ball of frustration. So it's nice to see that a lot of the problems I've had with D&D for a while are being addressed. The elven sub races have been retconned just as the dwarves and other demi humans have. This I don't mind at all. In all honesty, does there really need to be a different stat block for a Wood Elf and a Wild Elf? Or a High Elf and a Gray Elf? They'll still exist, but the differences will be more cultural then anything else. But then again I've never liked having a different flavor of elf for every stat. Rods, wands and staffs are taking the place of ray spells, missile spells and enchantment spells. No they're not. They're just tools that can make your spellcasting better. With each item being used to specifically enhance a certain type of spellcasting. And even that last bit's been changed. According to Michelle Carter... Well, I know better than to poke the bear(s), but I've been working on magic items all day and I'm punchy: [Regarding: ]"Staffs are for rays and cones, wands for long distance control, while orb stands for blasts, terrain control, and retributive and perception based effects." This was true at the time it was written, and as with a few other small details, it's changed since then. Spells are not based on the implements you use to cast them. Wizards still choose a primary implement (and that choice is a meaningful one), but you can cast any spell through any implement with equal effectiveness. You can still cast Magic Missile if you're stripped naked and unarmed. Having a Staff or a Wand, though, just makes it better, somehow. And once again, here's another change I'm glad about. I've never liked the way D&D handled Staffs, Wands and Crystal Balls. It never jived with how that stuff was used in most other fantasy, and now it will for the most part. Paladins are no longer warriors of justice and clerics are just a plain mess. I don't see a problem with this, either, and this coming from a guy who's preference has been to play Paladins since 2nd edition. Even in 2nd edition, we had Anti-Paladins. 3E gave us Blackguards. So why not just cut out the middleman and allow evil versions of the Paladin class, already, rather then have all these weird exceptions or prestige classes?
Alediran 12-08-07, 01:20 PM	LET THE MARCH AGAINST THE $ED TEAM COMMENCE, LET NO ONE ALIVE!!! Seriously, I'll begin a hate campaign against 4ed D&D in my country NOW, spread everywhere and tell the truth about the 4ed, tell the horrors they are making and hope that 4ed utterly fails thanks to our voice.
msatran 12-08-07, 01:56 PM	The only Divine Ranks, it seems, that we have left, are that they are divine beings, and they are rank. Why would anyone WANT to worship these gods?
GreenKnight 12-08-07, 02:19 PM	The only Divine Ranks, it seems, that we have left, are that they are divine beings, and they are rank. Why would anyone WANT to worship these gods? Pretty much the only general 4E change that I don't like is the idea that 30th-Level PC's can kill even a Greater God. A Demigod (4E Demigods, not 3E Demigods) I can see. 4E Demigods seem to be on a par with people like Hercules and Gilgamesh. But a Greater God? To be fair, you have to meet all sorts of crazy requirements to kill them. But still, it just should not be possible. To kill a Greater God you should have to become a divine being first, a Demigod at least. But for Level 30 mortals to be able to do it? Which begs the question, if Level 30 mortals could bump off Greater Gods, then why hasn't it happened, before? Why hasn't Elminster gotten the Simbul and a couple others together and tried to kill Cyric or Shar? You'd think there'd be at least one instance of Level 30 characters taking down a Greater God, but there isn't one. The one and only instance I can think of, Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul challenging Jergal, involved them first having to become divine by killing Borem, one of the Seven Lost Gods. And even then, they didn't kill Jergal. Would they have even succeeded if Jergal hadn't been tired of being a Greater God? Odds are that, even after everything they'd been through, he probably could've killed the three of them with ease had he wanted to. Whatever the case, I find it ridiculous that a religion which has existed for thousands of years can suddenly come to a screeching halt cause a group of Level 30 dungeon delvers got it into their head to kill a god.
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 02:37 PM	This I don't mind at all. In all honesty, does there really need to be a different stat block for a Wood Elf and a Wild Elf? Or a High Elf and a Gray Elf? They'll still exist, but the differences will be more cultural then anything else. But then again I've never liked having a different flavor of elf for every stat. -Of course they need different stats. Sun Elves are different from Moon Elves, who are different from Wood Elves, and so on and so forth, culturally and physiologically- not to mention anatomically, concerning Avariel, Aquatic Elves and Lythari. I don't see a problem with this, either, and this coming from a guy who's preference has been to play Paladins since 2nd edition. Even in 2nd edition, we had Anti-Paladins. 3E gave us Blackguards. So why not just cut out the middleman and allow evil versions of the Paladin class, already, rather then have all these weird exceptions or prestige classes? -Here we go again...I'll be brief: the defition of the Paladin is a LG holy warrior. Paladins, logically, then must be LG. Anything else is not a Paladin. However, a "Divine Champion"-type class (which does not denote any kind of alignment) is a good thing.
GreenKnight 12-08-07, 02:52 PM	-Of course they need different stats. Sun Elves are different from Moon Elves, who are different from Wood Elves, and so on and so forth, culturally and physiologically Culturally, yes. But physiologically? How different physiologically could they be for them to have such wildly divergent stats? And to be honest, it's not as if the world is gonna crack in half because Sun Elves and Moon Elves have the same stat bonuses. Sun Elves will still be Sun Elves and Moon Elves will still be Moon Elves. You don't need varying racial stat bonuses to explain away culural differences. not to mention anatomically, concerning Avariel, Aquatic Elves and Lythari. I never said Avariels and Aquatic Elves should be mechanically the same as High Elves. :rolleyes: -Here we go again...I'll be brief: the defition of the Paladin is a LG holy warrior. Paladins, logically, then must be LG. Anything else is not a Paladin. However, a "Divine Champion"-type class (which does not denote any kind of alignment) is a good thing. Well, for whatever reason, they decided to keep the Paladin name for such a class. I'd prefer it if they called it the "Paragon" and said LG ones were referred to as Paladins while LE ones were referred to as Blackguards, but it's all immaterial. It's just a class name. And how many people in campaign worlds refer to Fighters as "Fighter"? "Oh, Durnan? He's a Fighter". So in a campaign setting, the good versions of the Paladin class will probably be called Paladins, while the evil versions of the Paladin class will probably be called Blackguards. Once again, is this the kind of minutiae which results in the world getting cracked in half?
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 03:20 PM	Culturally, yes. But physiologically? How different physiologically could they be for them to have such wildly divergent stats? And to be honest, it's not as if the world is gonna crack in half because Sun Elves and Moon Elves have the same stat bonuses. Sun Elves will still be Sun Elves and Moon Elves will still be Moon Elves. You don't need varying racial stat bonuses to explain away culural differences. -Just involving Sun and Moon Elves here: Sun Elves have more a tendency to drift towards law than Moon Elves, who have a tendency to drift towards chaos. Sun Elves are inherently more intelligent than Moon Elves -Those two factors alone constitute alignment and racial stat bonuses, which are two very important attributes of a race and/or character. I never said Avariels and Aquatic Elves should be mechanically the same as High Elves. :rolleyes: -Which is why I added them as a side-point. Once again, is this the kind of minutiae which results in the world getting cracked in half? -Yes. Y2K?
18DELTA 12-08-07, 03:22 PM	It would not suprize me if Lolth was an aspect of The Queen of Air and Darkness.:rolleyes: Now if they mess with Clanggedin, I WILL BE REALLY ****** OFF!!!:mad: Just look at Eberron to see where all these SILLY IDEAS about the Gods are coming from.:rolleyes: I have finally started to really check that setting out, it has its good points(the cosmology), then it has its bad points(its Gods).;) :P :waits: :rant: :banghead: :waits:
GreenKnight 12-08-07, 03:55 PM	-Just involving Sun and Moon Elves here: Sun Elves have more a tendency to drift towards law than Moon Elves, who have a tendency to drift towards chaos. Sun Elves are inherently more intelligent than Moon Elves -Those two factors alone constitute alignment and racial stat bonuses, which are two very important attributes of a race and/or character. Alignment is wholly cultural, and so shouldn't have any bearing on mechanics for a race. As for the latter point, that can also be ascribed to culture. Are they naturally more intelligent, or do they just place more value on book learning? Is living a more sedate and scholarly life really the equivalent of being an entirely different subrace? For instance, say we've got two different groups of humans. The first group lives in small villages, favor manual labor, and they tend towards Chaotic Good. The average stat array of this breed of human is Str 12, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 8. Then we have another breed of human. They live in vast cities, favor the pursuit of knowledge, and they tend towards Lawful Good. The average stat array of this breed of human is Str 8, Dex 9, Con 11, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 10. So are we dealing with two human subraces, here? The first with racial modifiers of +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, while the second has racial modifiers of +2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Str, -2 Dex? Or are they simply the same species shaped by different cultural and environmental conditions? In addition, I'd like to point out that it's pretty useless to complain about this, when we don't actually know what the mechanics are for Eladrin/Elves in 4E.
Hanali-in-Love 12-08-07, 04:22 PM	Let's not forget that wood elves or copper elves are stronger than other elves and prefer guerrilla tactics over the gold's way of fighting. That alone indicates it's own stats. It's like saying one elven god is just the same as another elven god. Let me tell you, Corellon and Rillifane are as different as Corellon and Erevan.
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 04:26 PM	Alignment is wholly cultural, and so shouldn't have any bearing on mechanics for a race. -Unless you ascribe to the nature argument, over the nurture argument. Or are they simply the same species shaped by different cultural and environmental conditions? -The seperate Elven surbaces were initially created differently, by the Seldarine, however. In addition, I'd like to point out that it's pretty useless to complain about this, when we don't actually know what the mechanics are for Eladrin/Elves in 4E. -Oh, I'm not complaining. I'm just pointing out to you why different stats for different subraces are necessary.
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 04:27 PM	Let's not forget that wood elves or copper elves are stronger than other elves and prefer guerrilla tactics over the gold's way of fighting. That alone indicates it's own stats. -That's a cultural phenominon, and not a racial one. A Wood Elf raised by a community of, say, Avariel, is going to be much different.
GreenKnight 12-08-07, 04:30 PM	Let's not forget that wood elves or copper elves are stronger than other elves So they hit the gym more often. and prefer guerrilla tactics over the gold's way of fighting. That alone indicates it's own stats. :uh-huh: Erm, we're using preferred tactics in warfare as justification for subraces, now?
GreenKnight 12-08-07, 05:24 PM	-Unless you ascribe to the nature argument, over the nurture argument. Well, in D&D, alignment doesn't really factor into a race's abilities, unless it's some kind of Outsider or similar. So whether tending towards Chaotic Good or Lawful Evil, there's no reason to assume that that would have any effects on the basic elf's racial attributes. -The seperate Elven surbaces were initially created differently, by the Seldarine, however. Hmm. Been a while since I've read up on elven background, but yeah. Still, that doesn't necessarily mean that every single branch of the elven family tree must have different racial stats. Especially when we're talking about elven subraces like Wild Elves and Wood Elves, who're pretty similar to each other, and Gray Elves and High Elves, who're also fairly similar. Their differences can be easily be chalked up to culture/environment, with their individual patrons only making cosmetic changes (Blonde hair versus silvery hair, blue eyes versus green eyes, etc).
Stigger 12-08-07, 05:38 PM	If one thinks of those differentiated racial stats as portraying the various ways the subraces are educated and such, then they make quite a bit of sense. Maybe the Gold Elves spend more time in libraries as part of their education, academic pursuits, as opposed to the Wood Elves preference to spending time outdoors exercising and climbing trees... so Gold Elves get a small boost to intelligence to reflect that tendency (which of course reflects in the knowledge skills), while the Wood Elves get a slighly boost to their physical skills via a strength boost. Or maybe its just a natural state of their beings as granted by the Seldarine. Either way, it can work out for both nature and nurture points of view, depending on how one views it.
Bonzai 12-08-07, 06:08 PM	This sort of thing would have ticked me off, but I'm already numb from everything else already. Starting with Halaster, leading up to the GHotR, through the Orc king, and the designer interviews, I've been delivered blow after blow. I just don't feel them anymore. So they are combining Talos and Grumish together? Makes about as much sense as everything else. Which is to say, beyond my comprehension at best, or down right assanine at worst. Again, all this does is sour me on the idea of 4th edition and general, and want to avoid WotC campaign settings specifically. I'll give 4 ED mechanics a fair shot, but more than likley I will start up a home brew setting. It just doesn't seem like the "Realms" any more.
GreenKnight 12-08-07, 06:12 PM	Yeah, but if one wanted to base racial bonuses on that, then why don't humans have racial bonuses? Why don't humans who have a cultural predisposition to booklearning have a +2 Int bonus, while humans who live in mud huts hunting and gathering for a living have a +2 Str or +2 Con? That argument falls down on its face because the same arguments can be made in favor of humans ten times over. Yet humans don't get racial modifiers, no matter how wildly divergent the culture and environment they come from. You grew up in the Savage North waging constant battle against Orcs? It doesn't matter, you get no Strength bonus. You grow up in Candlekeep spending all your time reading dusty tomes? It doesn't matter, you get no Int bonus. Instead, it's assumed that their stat array is a bit different. The Northman would have Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 8, while the native of Candlekeep would have Str 9, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 8. Likewise, what's the problem with assuming that the Sun Elf and Moon Elf simply prioritizes different stats, with the Sun Elf favoring Intelligence over Dexterity?
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 08:29 PM	Well, in D&D, alignment doesn't really factor into a race's abilities, unless it's some kind of Outsider or similar. So whether tending towards Chaotic Good or Lawful Evil, there's no reason to assume that that would have any effects on the basic elf's racial attributes. -Alignment doesn't factor into abilities, no. Alignment has to do with a subrace's stats, though. Still, that doesn't necessarily mean that every single branch of the elven family tree must have different racial stats. -When warrented, it does- be it a major difference, or a minor one. Especially when we're talking about elven subraces like Wild Elves and Wood Elves... -In Elves of Faerūn, I've reversed that foolishness. Yet humans don't get racial modifiers, no matter how wildly divergent the culture and environment they come from. -That'd never happen, even though I think it is warrented, for one major reason- racism. Do you think they'd be able to get away with something like that, giving one racial group this, another racial group that, and so on?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-08-07, 09:09 PM	Rich Baker also mentioned that they are going to retcon minor deities like Clangeddin and Brandobaris. Clangeddin a minor deity? What planet are these designers from? Yeah, that puzzled me as well. Clangeddin was probably the second most prominent dwarven god after Moradin (at least that's the impression I always got). Since when has he ever been a "minor deity"?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-08-07, 09:14 PM	Yeah, I think that when 4E comes out, I'll be making my own Realms. This is getting to be a bit to much. They come up with the Spellplague in order not to do a retcon (Like 3E saying that Sorcerers were always just there), but then they retcon things, anyway? I'm annoyed about that as well...and I had a feeling they'd be doing some retconning in spite of what they've said ever since I learned that the basic nature of demon and devils would be changing.
Kenzuki 12-08-07, 09:24 PM	This is the same crap that the new devs of WoW have been doing to the Warcraft series and lore.... I HATE IT.
Dark Wizard 12-08-07, 10:00 PM	Yeah, that puzzled me as well. Clangeddin was probably the second most prominent dwarven god after Moradin (at least that's the impression I always got). Since when has he ever been a "minor deity"? At least he's still around. Gorm was the only dwarven deity I really liked.
GreenKnight 12-08-07, 11:46 PM	-Alignment doesn't factor into abilities, no. Alignment has to do with a subrace's stats, though. How so? Not being argumentative, just wondering what specific examples you might be thinking of, as nothing springs to mind (Well, except for Charisma penalties. But Charisma's always been something of a black sheep amongst the stat block). -When warrented, it does- be it a major difference, or a minor one. Well, I wouldn't call a +2 modifier a minor difference. The strongest Wood Elf, for instance, can lift 100 more lbs. then the strongest human, dwarf, or other elf. I find that silly. To each their own, though. Personally I don't think Sun Elves and Moon Elves are different enough to warrant mechanical differences, but that's a matter of personal taste so arguing it is a waste of time. Besides, I imagine that the Talents available for Eladrin will make it possible to make Eladrin who're very different from each other, and representative of any differences one might feel that Moon Elves and Sun Elves should have (After all, those racial talents will allow for Dragonborn to grow wings, claws, and gain a breath weapon. It shouldn't be to much to expect that Eladrin will have talents that might grant them additional scholarly abilities, which one can then use as representative of their Eladrin being a Sun Elf, while another Eladrin player can pick more athletic talents, and then use as representative of their Eladrin being a Moon Elf). -In Elves of Faerūn, I've reversed that foolishness. Elves of Faerun? This a recent supplement, Dragon article, or what? Man, I hate it when I miss something. ;) -That'd never happen, even though I think it is warrented, for one major reason- racism. Do you think they'd be able to get away with something like that, giving one racial group this, another racial group that, and so on? Would you believe they HAVE done it before? Check out the Birthright Campaign Setting. It had humans from different cultures with various different racial modifiers. They had Anuireans (+1 Wis, -1 Dex), Brecht (+1 Dex, -1 Wis), Khinasi (+1 Int, -1 Con), Rjurik (+1 Con, -1 Cha), and Vos (+1 Str, -1 Int). Fantastic setting, all around. If you ever get the chance, I suggest checking it out. If I had to guess, I'd say that you'd be able to download the campaign setting for $6 from drivethrurpg.com. It's a shame that Birthright didn't get translated to 3rd edition. Huh. And I just noticed that it was cowritten by Rich Baker. Well, that explains the Shadowfell. I knew it was reminiscent of the Shadow World from Birthright. Looks like it's not just a coincidence. Incidentally, in Birthright, Elves had +1 Dex, +1 Int, -1 Str, -1 Con.
GreenKnight 12-08-07, 11:52 PM	I'm annoyed about that as well...and I had a feeling they'd be doing some retconning in spite of what they've said ever since I learned that the basic nature of demon and devils would be changing. The earlier changes, while I was unhappy about them, at least they were things that could've easily been fixed if new people were put in charge of the Realms, or if the current team later decided they made a mistake and decided to reverse course. But man, a retcon? How do you retcon a retcon without ending up with a horrid mess on your hands?
Hanali-in-Love 12-08-07, 11:57 PM	The earlier changes, while I was unhappy about them, at least they were things that could've easily been fixed if new people were put in charge of the Realms, or if the current team later decided they made a mistake and decided to reverse course. But man, a retcon? How do you retcon a retcon without ending up with a horrid mess on your hands? 4Ed is nothing but a horrid mess! Eladrin as elves? Bullocks!
GreenKnight 12-09-07, 12:08 AM	I don't mind that so much. I've always thought elves should be more feylike, and making them related to the Eladrin is a pretty good idea. I just wonder what they're gonna call the Eladrin now that their racial name has been applied to one particular subrace. Sidhe, maybe? Who knows, but either way, it's nice seeing that they're making elves more feylike, and less like humans with pointy ears. D&D elves have never really evoked a sense of wonder or awe without first slapping a couple of epic wizard levels on them. And that's a change that one can work in without any retconning. After all, elves aren't native to the Realms, but rather came from elsewhere.
Hanali-in-Love 12-09-07, 12:19 AM	I don't mind that so much. I've always thought elves should be more feylike, and making them related to the Eladrin is a pretty good idea. I just wonder what they're gonna call the Eladrin now that their racial name has been applied to one particular subrace. Sidhe, maybe? Who knows, but either way, it's nice seeing that they're making elves more feylike, and less like humans with pointy ears. D&D elves have never really evoked a sense of wonder or awe without first slapping a couple of epic wizard levels on them. And that's a change that one can work in without any retconning. After all, elves aren't native to the Realms, but rather came from elsewhere. Wood elves and Wild elves ARE native to Faerun. Moon, gold and star elves are not native. How is making elves into eladrin not retconning? One day the elves wake up and realize they're eladrin? Rubbish, bullocks! Like GeV said above, 30,000 years of elven history is just supposed to be ignored and changed? Elves are now eladrin? If that's not a retcon then I'm a Gibbering Mouther.
GreenKnight 12-09-07, 12:31 AM	Wood elves and Wild elves ARE native to Faerun. Races of Faerun, page 43. Wild Elves aren't native. And Wood Elves are native... in that they're descended from the other elves who arrived on Faerun. But they didn't spring up on Faerun all on their own. And when you get right down to it, their story is pretty much identical to the story of the difference between Elves and Eladrin in the Design and Development article. One day the elves wake up and realize they're eladrin? Rubbish, bullocks! No, they're the same people they've always been. They're not going to start calling themselves Eladrin. Just because they came themselves Eladrin in the core setting, it doesn't mean they call themselves Eladrin in the Realms. Like GeV said above, 30,000 years of elven history is just supposed to be ignored and changed? Elves are now eladrin? If that's not a retcon then I'm a Gibbering Mouther. Then you're a Gibbering Mouther.:P It doesn't change a thing. They still emmigrated from elsewhere, Arvandor or wherever, and settled on the Realms. That they're more closely related to the Bralani and Ghaeles, how does that affect their history in the Realms? It doesn't change a thing. We still got Moon Elves, Sun Elves, Green Elves, Copper Elves, Avariels, Aquatic Elves, Drow, and all the history that followed. That the Moon Elves and Sun Elves once may have called themselves Eladrin 100,000 years in the past is pretty much immaterial.
Hanali-in-Love 12-09-07, 12:41 AM	Evermeet: Island of elves, says in black and white that when the first moon and gold elves came to Faerun, there were already primative wild elves living in the forests.
GreenKnight 12-09-07, 12:49 AM	Got a specific reference/page number? Cause Races of Faerun pages 43 and 45 says otherwise.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-09-07, 12:54 AM	Would you believe they HAVE done it before? Check out the Birthright Campaign Setting. It had humans from different cultures with various different racial modifiers. They had Anuireans (+1 Wis, -1 Dex), Brecht (+1 Dex, -1 Wis), Khinasi (+1 Int, -1 Con), Rjurik (+1 Con, -1 Cha), and Vos (+1 Str, -1 Int). :eek: Wow, I can't believe they actually did that.
Green Elven Vampire 12-09-07, 01:04 AM	Got a specific reference/page number? Cause Races of Faerun pages 43 and 45 says otherwise. To be honest, I remember reading that somewhere in that book as well. I'll grab my copy and see if I can find it. Mind you, it's a very big book, so H-I-L may respond before me. I remember Sharlario Moonflower and Durothil arriving in Faerun to find Avariel elves and wild elves already established with their own kingdoms/villages/towns and all that jazz. I'll check the book, but it may take me a while. If anyone else knows then please save me the time, lol.
Dark Wizard 12-09-07, 01:14 AM	A lot of that mess arose when 3e decided to split the old 2e Wood elves into Wild and Wood elves.
farfairer 12-09-07, 01:19 AM	Pardon my ignorance, as I have not read much about 4E yet. We still got Moon Elves, Sun Elves, Green Elves, Copper Elves, Avariels, Aquatic Elves, Drow, and all the history that followed. That the Moon Elves and Sun Elves once may have called themselves Eladrin 100,000 years in the past is pretty much immaterial. Have the developers actually said that? Because while you may believe that the developers will keep all the different flavors of elf, and just say: "use the racial stats for Eladrin when building a Sun Elf." I don't believe it for a moment. I actually think that this development team wants there to be only three kinds of elf in existence in any of the given worlds (Elf, Eladrin and Drow). And thats only if Eladrin really are a type of elf and not simply considered elf-kin or elf-like. I don't care so much about stats here. I care about the existence of the race and culture. And I'm sorry, but I don't expect it to be there when I read a 4E book.
Fingoldfin 12-09-07, 01:51 AM	Pardon my ignorance, as I have not read much about 4E yet. Have the developers actually said that? Because while you may believe that the developers will keep all the different flavors of elf, and just say: "use the racial stats for Eladrin when building a Sun Elf." I don't believe it for a moment. I actually think that this development team wants there to be only three kinds of elf in existence in any of the given worlds (Elf, Eladrin and Drow). And thats only if Eladrin really are a type of elf and not simply considered elf-kin or elf-like. I don't care so much about stats here. I care about the existence of the race and culture. And I'm sorry, but I don't expect it to be there when I read a 4E book. Yes. I get the feeling we will either have a massive retcon of elven history or they will find some weird way to use the Spell-puke to change history. Maybe they will use MarkusTay's theory about the un-sundering. Either way I'm pretty sure it won't make any sense. :raincloud
GreenKnight 12-09-07, 02:07 AM	Have the developers actually said that? Because while you may believe that the developers will keep all the different flavors of elf, and just say: "use the racial stats for Eladrin when building a Sun Elf." I don't believe it for a moment. They've actually said it. Moon Elves and Sun Elves won't suddenly start calling themselves Eladrin. Mechanics wise, they'll be Eladrin, but in the Realms, they won't refer to themselves as such. I'll see if I can dig up a quote.
GreenKnight 12-09-07, 02:21 AM	And HERE'S (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14197018&postcount=928) the quote in question. Actually, I expect that sun elves, moon elves, and star elves would all fall into the description of "eladrin" for game stats, while wood elves and green elves would be "elves." But we're still going to call them sun elves, star elves, etc., for the most part. Nobody in Faerun would call those folks eladrins, they'd call them ar-tel-quessir, sun elves, or gold elves. To be honest, I remember reading that somewhere in that book as well. I'll grab my copy and see if I can find it. Just realized that's a novel, not a supplement (I was here checking 'Elves of Evermeet' to see what Hanali was talking about). If that's the case, then it contradicts Races of Faerun. So when you have a case where one bit of background contradicts the other what wins out? A sourcebook or a novel? I can't say as I'm sorely lacking in novel knowledge (Man, if they were available on eBook format, I'd download them to my pocket pc and read them in a heartbeat).
Lord Karsus 12-09-07, 09:48 AM	-No Elves are native to Abeir-Toril. -The first wave of Elven migration to Toril happened circa –27,000 DR, and included the Wood/Wild/Green Elves, the Avariel, the Lythari and the Dark Elves coming from Faerie. A later migration brought the Sun Elves, and a Moon Elf- the survivors of Tintageer- to Toril, circa -24,500 DR. The Aquatic Elves and the Star Elves arrived in a third migration much later. -When the survivors of Tintageer discovered the remains of a Wood Elven item, it was quite old. But, it would be, as the Wood Elves had already been living on Faerūn for over two thousand years. -And, lastly, while it is correct in this context (Wood/Wild/Green Elves are not native to Abeir-Toril), Races of Faerūn still has many flaws- such as seperating the Green Elves into Wood and Wild, to begin with. Like I've stated, though, Elves of Faerūn does not acknowledge this.
Suin Bahhar 12-09-07, 12:57 PM	Eladrin as elves I can get behind. But Sehanine as Selune makes FR implode.
sfdragon 12-09-07, 01:02 PM	ummm you are wrong there, the wood elves are native to faerun.
Lord Karsus 12-09-07, 01:13 PM	ummm you are wrong there, the wood elves are native to faerun. -If you learn one thing, you'll learn that you don't question me when it comes to Elves. -You are incorrect, by the way. Wood/Wild/Green Elves- whatever you want to call them- migrated from Faerie, like all other Elven subraces.
AskaniPsion 12-09-07, 01:17 PM	But Sehanine as Selune makes FR implode. Yeah it makes me want to vomit :yuck: - I have been trying to keep a VERY open mind about 4E Faerun but this just really ruined it for me. Lets trash all the classic history of D&D out the window and have the elven gods be actually HUMAN gods. Please!!! If anything, the elven gods would have been there first and have the humans worship them.
GreenKnight 12-09-07, 01:21 PM	Either that or make Selune a facet of Sehanine Moonbow, but that makes equally small sense, as that would contradict the creation of Selune story. Not to mention that one would think that Sehanine would use her Selune persona on the worlds she exists on as an elven goddess in order to garner the worship of humans as well. Same for Gruumsh/Talos. Hell, has Talos ever shown any animosity towards Corellon Larethian, or elves in general? -If you learn one thing, you'll learn that you don't question me when it comes to Elves. :rofl: So if Races of Faerun isn't trustworthy, then what books make for good reading on the history of elves in Faerun? I'm in da mood ta do me sum book lernin'!
Lord Karsus 12-09-07, 02:00 PM	Hell, has Talos ever shown any animosity towards Corellon Larethian, or elves in general? -Only indirectly, as he is allies with some of the enemies of the Seldarine, and represents an abstract idea that most Elves would find dispicable (wanton destruction and all). :rofl: So if Races of Faerun isn't trustworthy, then what books make for good reading on the history of elves in Faerun? I'm in da mood ta do me sum book lernin'! -Most of what is presented in Races of Faerūn, concerning Elves, is sound, if not extremely brief and limited. A lot of it is also simply dated, as Races of Faerūn was published early...2003? 2004? Either way, a lot of information has been illuminated, particularly of early Elven history. -For the history of the Elves, I'd recommend the following sourcebooks and novels: A Grand History of the Realms (Sourcebook) Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves (Sourcebook) The Year of the Rogue Dragons Trilogy (Novels) Elves of Faerūn (Netbook) Evermeet: Island of the Elves (Novel) Lost Empires of Faerūn (Sourcebook) Realms of the Elves (Novel)
GreenKnight 12-09-07, 02:29 PM	Elves of Faerūn (Netbook) Ah, that explains why I never heard of it. I was here thinking you were talking about some published book that I missed somewhere. Anyway, thanks for the list. Let's see... The Year of the Rogue Dragons Trilogy (Novels) Elves of Faerūn (Netbook) (Got a link?) Evermeet: Island of the Elves (Novel) Realms of the Elves (Novel) This is what I need to check out, then. Thanks. :)
HVulpes 12-09-07, 02:36 PM	My Two Cents: One, when people say that Wood elves are native to Faerun, it refers to the Race of Faerun where Wood elves are seperate from Wild elves. Where Wood elves are the mixture of Sun, Moon and Wild elves which evolved on Faerun making the 'Native'. Two, we know very little about the aspect of the Seldarine in 4 Ed. One thing Ed Greenwood has said is most people in the realms and our world know very little about the gods. There is plenty of misdirection and confusion with legends and myths. We still need the story about the gods. Perhaps when the elves crossover to the world of Toril, not all of their gods could make it across with them. So elven gods selected native deities to take their position in this world to protect the children, like Selune creating an aspect known as Sehanine Moonbow with the permission of the world spanning one. Perhaps made in combined image of the two goddesses. With Talos as Grummish, it is possible when Orcs crossovered this deity took the image of their god to gain more divine power. Stilling them in a way, creating the image of Grummish we all know. Just a few ideas to explain the idea of 'human' gods being the deities of non-humans. The aspect of the Spellplague might mean the old seperate aspects of Selune/Sehanine Moonbow or Talos/Grummish will have to remerge to survive, combining elements of all deities. Also with Eladrin being the stats for High Elves, it is possible that there will be feats and/or powers to make the different forms of Eladrin different from each other. Like an education bonuses for Sun elves to improve intellect and wizard skills or sneaking bonuses for Moon elves to focus on their Ranger and Rogue aspects. Just sharing my thoughts on the matter. It might be best to wait till we know more. We should know more after the new year. (The Races and Classes book might not be best as that book is a rough draft of Fourth. All in it should be taken with a grain of salt.
Iakhovas 12-09-07, 02:44 PM	Lord Karsus, you know better. I really want to support the Elven Netbook because it's a worthwhile endeavor, but statements like this are a little immature for a project leader don't you think? If you go strictly by canon, then sfdragon is absolutely correct. I happen to also disagree with some things found in Races of Faerūn, but until a new sourcebook is released which updates that lore, Wood Elves are indeed native to Faerūn. -If you learn one thing, you'll learn that you don't question me when it comes to Elves. -You are incorrect, by the way. Wood/Wild/Green Elves- whatever you want to call them- migrated from Faerie, like all other Elven subraces.
Suin Bahhar 12-09-07, 03:52 PM	So green elves could remember the creator race era of the Fey if they have lore on that stored somewhere. Interesting.
Hanali-in-Love 12-09-07, 05:39 PM	So green elves could remember the creator race era of the Fey if they have lore on that stored somewhere. Interesting. That's about right. I can't find the page, but it somewhere in the chapters where Sharlario and his son go off wandering the forests of faerun looking for other elven settlements to bring them into a loose alliance for some future apocalypse. It does mention green elves being native to faerun and that their magic is powerful, but feral. But all that is gone now that Rillifane Rallathil will probably be an elven name for Silvanus, which is just bullocks and rubbish.
GreenKnight 12-09-07, 06:00 PM	It does mention green elves being native to faerun You sure you're not just misreading it? Because Races of Faerun and The Grand History of the Realms state, pretty explicitly, that Green Elves immigrated to Faerun. Here're some snippets from Races of Faerun. http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/264157/2256126elf1.jpg http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/264157/2256127elf2.jpg Now, what's the context of what you're talking about? Is that just what the characters think? For instance, newly arrived Moon Elves and Sun Elves might think Green Elves were native to Faerun, if they see that they had a civilization built there. But according to Grand History of the Realms, Green Elves immigrated to Faerun around -27,000 DR, while Moon Elves and Sun Elves did the same around -25,400 DR. So after 1,600 years on Faerun, Green Elves may appear to be natives to someone who just got there. Hell, the Green Elves themselves may also come to believe that they're natives, if some catastrophe caused them to lose their history during that time. That, however, doesn't make it so.
ravennight 12-09-07, 06:28 PM	Here are my thoughts on 4th edition. I first off have done major work on creating a complete fantasy world for my own campaigns and writings, which has been really liberating and I'm not sure I'll go back to the Realms, this was primarily motivated by the vague catastrophe that was looming of the 4th edition. Second, since it will present radically new rules that had potential to completely eradicate the relevance and structure of so many of the previously published materials, I felt it was time to do something new altogether. Third, my biggest first upset was the death of Mystra, which is fairly inconceivable to me to begin with, even though the Spellplague is a very interesting roadmark in history and has potential for some exciting changes. Fourth, and this is my criticism of radically changing the system as a whole, I feel like the purpose of all the rules and whatnot is to make the game system as easy and efficient to use as possible, while making the game as real seeming and logical as possible, not making it more difficult to understand the whys and hows of things, especially not after almost 30 years of somewhat similar theories on magic and lore. I can also understand how characters should be more free to worship deities of their choice, however, if a deity is an elven deity, then most of their worshipers are going to be elven. Just because the Faerunian pantheon is worshiped largely by humans doesn't make them 'human' deities, but like someone said, Sehanine and the Seldarine are immagrent deities and didn't play a role in the creation of Toril and Selune did. Also, Sehanine is represented in the elven pantheons of other worlds as well. I think changing rules to make them seem more logical and fluid and make the gaming experience have greater realness is good, make the deities more clearly defined, give them darker descriptions or new aspects, but don't change the game in a way in which erases or makes irrelevant 30 years of published material.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-09-07, 06:51 PM	And Just realized that's a novel, not a supplement (I was here checking 'Elves of Evermeet' to see what Hanali was talking about). If that's the case, then it contradicts Races of Faerun. So when you have a case where one bit of background contradicts the other what wins out? A sourcebook or a novel? I can't say as I'm sorely lacking in novel knowledge (Man, if they were available on eBook format, I'd download them to my pocket pc and read them in a heartbeat). Well, in this case the Evermeet novel is supposed to be a biased history (whether that was the intention or not) written by Danilo Thaan (a character), so anything in that book is subject to the Unreliable Narrator rule. For example, the novel depicts events occuring amongst the elven gods tens of thousands of years ago--how would any mortals be able to accurately transcribe those events? I think even Elaine Cunningham herself has said that many events and information in the novel need not be taken for granted as absolute truth.
Uzzy 12-09-07, 06:55 PM	Quite what this means for the Realms I don't know, but over on ENWorld, someone who bought the Races and Classes preview book posted this little tidbit. Check the link for yourself here. (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=213811) Known gods include Bahamut, Corellon (god of magic), Io ("the ancient diety," now dead and split into Bahamut and Tiamat), Lolth, Moradin, Obad-Hai (god of the wilderness), Sehanine (goddess of the moon), Tiamat, and Zehir (god of night). Sehanine. As the Goddess of the Moon, at least in 'Core 4th Edition DnD'. Interesting..
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-09-07, 07:01 PM	Also, regardless of what any recent sources might say, I've never thought of elves of any specific subrace as being autochthons of Faerun.
AskaniPsion 12-09-07, 07:31 PM	Quite what this means for the Realms I don't know, but over on ENWorld, someone who bought the Races and Classes preview book posted this little tidbit. Check the link for yourself here. (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=213811) Sehanine. As the Goddess of the Moon, at least in 'Core 4th Edition DnD'. Interesting.. Woh! So Sehanine IS going to be around! So Selune was just the human aspect of Sehanine?? That would make ALOT more sense than other way around. Also odd is that a God I don't know is the God of Night....Isn't Shar the Goddess of Night? Is Shar gone now too? Nah this is WOTC, she still has to be around. ;)
Uzzy 12-09-07, 07:34 PM	Possibly. Like I said, that is only for the CORE DnD. It may or may not apply in the Realms. Really don't know yet.
GreenKnight 12-09-07, 07:34 PM	Well, in this case the Evermeet novel is supposed to be a biased history (whether that was the intention or not) written by Danilo Thaan (a character), so anything in that book is subject to the Unreliable Narrator rule. For example, the novel depicts events occuring amongst the elven gods tens of thousands of years ago--how would any mortals be able to accurately transcribe those events? I think even Elaine Cunningham herself has said that many events and information in the novel need not be taken for granted as absolute truth. In other words, I'm right. But then, I'm always right. See, this is why I need to get myself decapitated from time to time. It's the only way to relieve the pressure that builds up in my head caused by my massive and constrantly growing ego. :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-09-07, 07:36 PM	Woh! So Sehanine IS going to be around! So Selune was just the human aspect of Sehanine?? That would make ALOT more sense than other way around. We don't know that yet. They are talking about CORE deities, not FR deities. Also odd is that a God I don't know is the God of Night....Isn't Shar the Goddess of Night? Is Shar gone now too? Nah this is WOTC, she still has to be around. ;) See above--those are core deities.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-09-07, 07:37 PM	In other words, I'm right. But then, I'm always right. See, this is why I need to get myself decapitated from time to time. It's the only way to relieve the pressure that builds up in my head caused by my massive and constrantly growing ego. :D Heh. Yeah, what I said basically supported you because the Evermeet novel can't be considered 100% reliable.:)
GreenKnight 12-09-07, 07:38 PM	Woh! So Sehanine IS going to be around! So Selune was just the human aspect of Sehanine?? That would make ALOT more sense than other way around. Also odd is that a God I don't know is the God of Night....Isn't Shar the Goddess of Night? Is Shar gone now too? Nah this is WOTC, she still has to be around. ;) That's for the Core Pantheon. That doesn't have any impact on the Faerunian Pantheon, as the implied setting is a separate world. So what's true for that pantheon isn't necessarily true for the Faerunian Pantheon.
AskaniPsion 12-09-07, 07:38 PM	We don't know that yet. They are talking about CORE deities, not FR deities. See above--those are core deities. Well I say the h*** with the FR dieties! They seem they are being ruined....for once it sounds like the Core Gods are going to be better. As long as Tiamat, Sehanine and especially Lolth are around....I will be happy. :D
msatran 12-09-07, 11:30 PM	This is going to suck so much it defies description. How can they take all this marvelous detail, and throw it into a centrifuge, and come out with this? It's like they took all the stuff that was GOOD, tossed it, and left us with the impurities.
GoldDragon 12-09-07, 11:56 PM	Yeah, I think that when 4E comes out, I'll be making my own Realms. This is getting to be a bit to much. They come up with the Spellplague in order not to do a retcon (Like 3E saying that Sorcerers were always just there), but then they retcon things, anyway? And while I generally like the idea of gods not being limited to worshippers of a specific race, and appearing differently depending on the worshipper (Not a new thing. Gond sometimes shows up as a human and other times he's a Gnome), but to merge two different gods together and then say they were always the same guy? Come on. Talos /= Gruumsh and Gruumsh /= Talos. Nevermind that there's no reason whatsoever for their names to be different. How hard would it be for Gruumsh to whisper into the ears of his priests and say "Psst, my name's GRUUMSH, not Talos. Stop saying it wrong"? Geeze, out of all the routes they could've taken in order to make the Realms reflect the 4E rules set, it seems like they've taken the most torturous route possible. Could be worst, the guy could have been a fan of Dragonstar and introduced the 12 Dietypes of the Unification Church or the Duelist Philosophy of the Creator and the Advasary..lol (Both Loth and Shar would be "aspects" of "The Mother" and "The Destroyer of the Unification Church and just the Adversary in the Duelist Heresy)" Simple solution is to just use YOUR favorite system to play the realms and Set your adventures in the TImeline before 4th Eddition if not just create a "Alternate TImeline".....damn to what is considered "Kosher" I have some 3rd eddition books for references but bulk of my Resources are 2nd eddition with a few 1st eddition and original Dungeon and Dragons and AD&D gems. All of it is more for collection and "reading room material" then to play a game. I played the SSI Original Gold box series for the PC which was 2nd eddition, Baulder's Gate, the Eye of the Beholder Seris for PC all which where 2nd eddition, and the Neverwinter Series which was 3rd eddition and that is the extent of my "Kosher" D&D playing never have once participating in a Pen and Paper Session. I will probly never play 4th eddition unless a computer game uses the rule ste that I would want to play.
OrderofUhlrik 12-10-07, 12:39 AM	I remember when I first joined the boards I was cautiously optimistic about 4e. I even railed against the majority of the naysayers saying that they were being to reactionairy, they were unwilling to see the changes through, etc. This is ridiculous. Talos isn't Grummush. Selune is Selune and nothing more. Nothing burns me like a retcon. Not only does this burn me, but the wizard changes they've annouced are nothing but ridiculous to me. I'm throwing down my glove. Wotc, this is an aside to you, I realize the new changes are a marketing decision, and that this board is a "vocal minority". But chew on this tidbit for a moment. I've talked to people, I've tried to hype up 4e. I've been the word of mouth you rely on for sales. I've defended you on the boards and on the streets. I've been what you hoped for. Then I come and read the updates, read the boards, and become at first disheartened, and then depressed, and then agitated. You're blundering about like a teenage boy fumbling at his first bra. Scorched Earth is not an effective method of moving forward. You lose all backwards flexibility. I'm sick of heavy-handed decisions coming down the grapevine. You're destroying all the history when your first claim was only wishing to tweak some parts that made selling the game to new players difficult. You make an arguement for change and then stretch it until it breaks, and its demoralizing anybody who knows anything about your current product. Who's going to bring in the new players if not the old ones? Where's my damn pitchfork and torch, and my wand of vitriol, I'm ready to cast. Read my first quote in my sig, WotC covers it as a group, a party, and the event as an epoch. >.<
GreenKnight 12-10-07, 12:57 AM	Simple solution is to just use YOUR favorite system to play the realms and Set your adventures in the TImeline before 4th Eddition if not just create a "Alternate TImeline".....damn to what is considered "Kosher" Well, I like the changes to the 4E rules set, so I don't need to go hunting for a new rules system to play under. These changes, though, for the most part, have nothing to do with the 4E rules set. Why does Helm need to die for the 4E rules to work? Why does Selune need to be merged with Sehanine for the 4E rules to work? The answer is they don't. The changes to the Realms, with the exception of the death of Mystra, are solely rooted in things they've probably been wanting to do to the Realms for a while. The switch to 4E is just giving them an excuse to make these changes. As for the death of Mystra, even that isn't necessary to make the 4E rules work. The changes to magic could easily be explained as nothing more then Mystra deciding to change the rules of magic. New Mystra, new rules. Kelemvor's done the same with the rules of death. So long as magic is doled out equally to all those who want it, good and evil alike, then she can do whatever she likes with it, even weaken it across the board and eliminate certain kinds of spells if she so desires. Alternatively, they could have Cyric kill her as he does, now, but Mystra resurrects moments later. Much like how Mystryl resurrected moments after being killed by Karsus. And like that instance, her momentary death irrevocably changed the nature of the Weave. And once again, you have a perfectly valid explanation for the change to the nature of magic in the Realms. Unfortunately, they can't do either as Grand History of the Realms is out, and they can't take back what's already been published. But even then, there're plenty of other options left open to them. I posted an idea a while back about the 100 year jump occuring as normal, and Mystra's not in the 4E Realms campaign setting. But within a year of its release WOTC could release an adventure where the PC's get the chance to bring back Mystra. Then Mystra is resurrected and she takes the reigns over the new magic, and decides to leave it as is. That'd be interesting, as you'd have three generations who've lived and died without a living Goddess of Magic, while having Mystra trying to rebuild her church, as she comes to grips with the new shape of the weave. And that opens up other story possibilities, as Cyric, with 900 years left on his prison sentence, suddenly has a burning need to bust out. Til then, he directs his followers to start killing the converts to the new church of the risen Mystra. And of course, if WOTC felt so inclined, they could release another adventure where PC's can prevent Cyric from escaping, or if they're an evil party, to aid in his escape. 4E D&D = :thumbsup:. But 4E Realms? :thumbsdow
sfdragon 12-10-07, 02:16 AM	thats about it GK
Alediran 12-10-07, 08:43 AM	OrderofUhlrik welcome to the anti-$ed team
Zireael 12-10-07, 09:09 AM	GEV and GK - it can't be true... :( If they dismissed Seldarine and half of the drow pantheon... what will survive of the Fair Folk?! :( :( :( :( They'll no longer be elves, just long-ear humans. Sad but true. They just destroyed the Realms. No More 4 Edition!!!!
msatran 12-10-07, 09:44 AM	You know, I don't want to believe it either. For me, that's not the real kicker, though. My problem is I'm not really an Elf guy. I play the Elves true to canon, which means they're kind of jerky and not always too friendly to nonelves. I'm a dwarf guy. So my dwarf wizard is going to worship...Corellon Larethian? Did Moradin suddenly leap into a dumpster? This is ridiculous.
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 10:36 AM	Lord Karsus, you know better. I really want to support the Elven Netbook because it's a worthwhile endeavor, but statements like this are a little immature for a project leader don't you think? If you go strictly by canon, then sfdragon is absolutely correct. I happen to also disagree with some things found in Races of Faerūn, but until a new sourcebook is released which updates that lore, Wood Elves are indeed native to Faerūn. -I'm not a slave to canon, so...I've said from the beginning, the ratio is 85/15, giving me wiggle room to correct problems created when connecting in novels/sourcebooks/edition changes/online articles. Just like other novels/sourcebooks present random retcons, so too do I. My MO is when something "needs fixing", I fix it. -Just using this one example, going by canon, Wood Elves cannot exist, to begin with. A Moon Elf mating with a Gold Elf produces either a Moon Elf, or a Gold Elf. A Moon Elf mating with a "Wild Elf" results in a Moon Elf or a "Wild Elf". By canon, it is impossible for Wood Elves to exist. Now what? Thus, I make sense of things, and I feel no misgivings doing so. In fact, I feel that I am empowering the setting, by presenting a theory that smooths out all the edges that works. Elves of Faerūn (Netbook) (Got a link?) -There is one in my signature. Note, though, that I'm going to be taking that down soon, as I'm going to start the process of making a PDF.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-10-07, 11:34 AM	Why does Helm need to die for the 4E rules to work? Why does Selune need to be merged with Sehanine for the 4E rules to work? The answer is they don't. The changes to the Realms, with the exception of the death of Mystra, are solely rooted in things they've probably been wanting to do to the Realms for a while. The switch to 4E is just giving them an excuse to make these changes. Exactly.
MerrikCale 12-10-07, 12:00 PM	Why does Helm need to die for the 4E rules to work? Why does Selune need to be merged with Sehanine for the 4E rules to work? The answer is they don't. The changes to the Realms, with the exception of the death of Mystra, are solely rooted in things they've probably been wanting to do to the Realms for a while. The switch to 4E is just giving them an excuse to make these changes. which is why they have never stated the reason these are "necessary"
msatran 12-10-07, 12:37 PM	Merrick? Why is that in your signature? It feels like it should be followed by... Bow to your partner, Doesey Doe, Go to town and don't eat no moe. Swing your partner round and round Satan will burn you If you let her touch ground... It just FEELS like square dancing...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-10-07, 12:44 PM	Merrick? Why is that in your signature? I like it, it's from "Song of the South".:) The song is sung by cute little animals.
MerrikCale 12-10-07, 01:12 PM	I like it, it's from "Song of the South".:) The song is sung by cute little animals. the lady wins the prize. Its an obscure Disney reference.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-10-07, 01:21 PM	the lady wins the prize. Its an obscure Disney reference. Yaaaay!:ayyyy!: That song is also played on the Splash Mountain ride (based on "Song of the South") at the Disney theme parks.:)
Fingoldfin 12-10-07, 01:25 PM	You know, I don't want to believe it either. For me, that's not the real kicker, though. My problem is I'm not really an Elf guy. I play the Elves true to canon, which means they're kind of jerky and not always too friendly to nonelves. I'm a dwarf guy. So my dwarf wizard is going to worship...Corellon Larethian? Did Moradin suddenly leap into a dumpster? This is ridiculous. Maybe we find out in 4e that Moradin is an aspect of Corellon. :eek: :yuck: I just vomited in my mouth a little. The worst part is it wouldn't surprise me at this point. :raincloud
Fingoldfin 12-10-07, 01:31 PM	the lady wins the prize. Its an obscure Disney reference. My friend's wife is a Disney fanatic. She's a great girl, but all the guys in the wedding party had to wear mouse ears. I don't think he'll ever live that one down. :rofl:
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 01:43 PM	-I'm surprised Disney acknowledges the existence of Song of the South.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-10-07, 01:45 PM	-I'm surprised Disney acknowledges the existence of Song of the South. By way of Splash Mountain (and the ubiquity of the song "Zip-a-dee-do-ah") it does.:)
GreenKnight 12-10-07, 02:13 PM	So my dwarf wizard is going to worship...Corellon Larethian? Did Moradin suddenly leap into a dumpster? This is ridiculous. You're worrying over nothing. Just because they wrote in a Design & Development article that some Dwarf Wizards in the core setting may worship Corellon Larethian, it doesn't mean that every Dwarf Wizard everywhere must automatically worship Corellon Larethian. Nor does it mean that Moradin is getting tossed away (And hell, they've explicitly mentioned the existence of Moradin in 4E as a Greater God, so he's not going anywhere or getting demoted).
Miryana 12-10-07, 02:25 PM	Talos is Gruumsh? Well, the retcon of the Realms pantheons is going to be even more massive than I thought it would be.
MerrikCale 12-10-07, 02:37 PM	-I'm surprised Disney acknowledges the existence of Song of the South. To date, it has decided not to release the film on DVD. However, it is the theme of Splash Mountain with three of the songs, including zip-a-dee-doo-dah and the one quoted in my sig.
Draklinthor 12-10-07, 03:17 PM	It would not suprize me if Lolth was an aspect of The Queen of Air and Darkness.:rolleyes: Now if they mess with Clanggedin, I WILL BE REALLY ****** OFF!!!:mad: Just look at Eberron to see where all these SILLY IDEAS about the Gods are coming from.:rolleyes: I have finally started to really check that setting out, it has its good points(the cosmology), then it has its bad points(its Gods).;) :P :waits: :rant: :banghead: :waits: Delta, I agree 100% and have thought about this myself over and over. Knowing WoTC and their bad choices in the past concerning movies and games (don't get me started), all of these changes do not surprise me. I can't help from feeling that the setting Eberron is being slowly but surely being forced upon me. Every time I go to the book store, it surprises me how many new novels based on the setting is on the shelves. With the DnD Online game being set in Eberron and all of these new novels all of a sudden based off of the setting, it doesn't surprise me that these changes (mistakes) are being made, they only have one thing on their mind, Eberron. I don't need another setting, I have the Realms. The Realms is all you can ask for. The Realms could be their key to success for WoTC if done right. I mean more success, not just the minor success they have had with their DnD products. I could go on and on about how much I dislike WoTC and their decisions, but is it really worth it? No, in the long run, I'm wasting my time, I'm just a blue collar nerd needing WoTC to get my fantasy fix. They are gonna do what they think is right, which most of the time is the wrong thing to do. Personally I think Hasbro needs to to do a revamp of the powers that be in WoTC. I can't help but think of what a juggernaught WoTC would be if they made some better choices in the past, it makes me sad really. Fantasy is being looked upon in a different light these days, hopefully someone wakes up and smells the coffee while it's still freshly brewed.
Kenzuki 12-10-07, 03:59 PM	To date, it has decided not to release the film on DVD. However, it is the theme of Splash Mountain with three of the songs, including zip-a-dee-doo-dah and the one quoted in my sig. Don't be hating Southerners now.
msatran 12-10-07, 04:14 PM	Maybe we find out in 4e that Moradin is an aspect of Corellon. :eek: :yuck: I just vomited in my mouth a little. The worst part is it wouldn't surprise me at this point. :raincloud That's not the problem. No dwarf should EVER worship Corellon Larethian. That's RIDICULOUS. If an Elf was reincarnated as a Dwarf, then I MIGHT see my way clear to worshipping Corellon Larethian, but the reality is that unless the character can get back to their old body, this isn't a realistic choice.
GreenKnight 12-10-07, 04:19 PM	That's not the problem. No dwarf should EVER worship Corellon Larethian. That's RIDICULOUS. Why not? As it stands, now, a Dwarf could worship Mystra. Hell, a Dwarf could worship any 'human' deity he likes. Why is it Dwarves can worship 'non-dwarf' gods so long as they're 'human' gods? Why're Elf gods out of bounds? Or Gnome gods? Or Halfling gods? And in the Core Pantheon, Corellon will be the only game in town as far as Gods of Magic. So why would a Dwarf Wizard not be willing to worship Corellon, there? Personally, I've always thought it was silly that non-humans worshipped their own racial pantheons, and could worship human pantheons, but they couldn't worship the gods of other races. And that humans never worshipped nonhuman gods, either. If a Dwarf can decide to stop worshipping Dwarf gods in favor of someone like Mystra or Azuth, then a Dwarf can certainly decide to worship Corellon.
msatran 12-10-07, 04:32 PM	GK, this is where "Old School" D+D comes into conflict with political correctness. CAN a dwarf do so? Sure! SHOULD a dwarf do so? Not if he was raised in a proper, loving dwarven home with his proper loving dwarven clansmen. Like an Elf worshipping a human god, a dwarf worshipping an elven god would be treated as a pariah among his or her peers. They would look at him funny when he walked down the street, and talk behind his back about him in the village square. His life would not be easy, even among his fellow adventurers, who would regard him with confusion, and perhaps suspicion. And in this case, the dwarf is more screwed than the elf, because the elves will regard their wayward fellow with tolerant disdain. A dwarf's fellow dwarves will beat the snot out of him until he's back on the right path.
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 04:38 PM	That's not the problem. No dwarf should EVER worship Corellon Larethian. That's RIDICULOUS. If an Elf was reincarnated as a Dwarf, then I MIGHT see my way clear to worshipping Corellon Larethian, but the reality is that unless the character can get back to their old body, this isn't a realistic choice. -And if a Dwarf were held a knifepoint, with his entire clan being threatened as well, to convert to either the worship of Corellon Larethian, or, say, Cyric?
GreenKnight 12-10-07, 04:43 PM	SHOULD a dwarf do so? Not if he was raised in a proper, loving dwarven home with his proper loving dwarven clansmen. A proper dwarf should be a lot of things. A proper dwarf should be lawful good. A proper dwarf shouldn't be a thief. He should stay home, work a trade, and defend the clanhold when it comes under attack. Yet PC Dwarves deviate pretty far from what a "proper dwarf" should be. If you can have a Chaotic Neutral Dwarf Rogue who doesn't put family honor above his own, and who worships Olidammara, the human god of rogues, then why can't you have a Neutral Good Dwarf Wizard who worships Corellon Larethian? Hell, a proper Dwarf shouldn't even BE a Wizard. Or a Sorcerer. And yet here we are, in 3E, and here we got Dwarf Wizards. Did you complain about those changes from "Old School D&D"? Nevermind that not all Dwarves live in classic Dwarf clanholds. Some of them live in crossracial cities like Waterdeep. And in a place like that, that sort of thing wouldn't come as to much of a surprise. They would look at him funny when he walked down the street, and talk behind his back about him in the village square. Would a Dwarf who braved the ruins of Myth Drannor really care about people whispering behind his back? His life would not be easy, even among his fellow adventurers, who would regard him with confusion, and perhaps suspicion. Why would his fellow adventurers even care? You've already got a party composed of, say, a human, elf, dwarf, and a halfling. And they've got no problems working with each other. Why should anyone cares if the Dwarf Wizard worships Corellon? Unusual? Sure. But that's a curiosity, not cause for suspicion. Do you really think the Human Fighter who worships Kord, the Halfling Rogue who worships Olidammara, and the Elf Cleric who worships Pelor are really gonna start whispering behind his back about how they can't trust that Neutral Good Dwarf Wizard who worships the Chaotic Good Corellon Larethian? Well, the Elf might get snotty but that's about it. A dwarf's fellow dwarves will beat the snot out of him until he's back on the right path. They beat him up for worshipping Corellon, but not for being an adventurer, for not being Lawful Good, for having trained in a disreputable class like Wizard or Rogue, for not taking up a trade skill, etc? Come on.
msatran 12-10-07, 05:36 PM	Absolutely, GK. Religious affiliations matter. And people in medieval societies are ignorant. A 10 is average intelligence. So that's the intelligence of your average person. Let's look at what people of average intelligence do in the real world. 1) Believe that Jews were being herded into concentration camps for their own good. 2) Believe that it was necessary to 'reclaim" Jerusalem for christianity despite the fact that people already lived in the Levant and had their own society. 3) Ketchup is a vegetable. Ketchup was legally declared a vegetable by the US government so that schools could meet healthy meal requirements for children. 4) World War One. Speaks for itself. 5) Millions of people watch Survivor. Veronica Mars gets cancelled. But most importantly, GK, more people have been KILLED over the nature of religion than over anything else in history. And the average intellect really isn't so smart. And that Dwarf might not care about the people whispering behind his back, but it's certainly going to color their reactions to him. Because ignorance is everywhere. It's how evil has a chance in the Forgotten Realms. In a world where having a patron deity means virtually everything, having the wrong patron deity can be social and political suicide.
GreenKnight 12-10-07, 05:50 PM	But most importantly, GK, more people have been KILLED over the nature of religion than over anything else in history. And the average intellect really isn't so smart. And that Dwarf might not care about the people whispering behind his back, but it's certainly going to color their reactions to him. Because ignorance is everywhere. It's how evil has a chance in the Forgotten Realms. In a world where having a patron deity means virtually everything, having the wrong patron deity can be social and political suicide. And yet Dwarves are able to go through life with a human patron deity without incident. The real world isn't D&D. And Dwarves, which tend towards Lawful Good, aren't going to start lynching Dwarves who start worshiping Corellon, anymore then they lynch Dwarves who worship Tyr, Heironeous, or Pelor. D&D survived just fine after the sudden influx of Dwarf Bards, Dwarf Druids, Dwarf Monks, Dwarf Rangers, Dwarf Sorcerers, and Dwarf Wizards. It'll continue on just fine even if there're a couple Dwarf Wizards smattered throughout the Core Setting who worship Corellon Larethian.
msatran 12-10-07, 05:58 PM	I'm sure it will, but the DM shouldn't make it easy for that character for making a suboptimal social choice. Approaching Citadel Felbarr, the party with the Corellon Larethian worshipping dwarf approaches. Raelmartan the Fighter: Well, Galburr, it's time for you to step up and announce us. Galburr: I...can't. Livaraenal the Eladrin Ranger: Why not? Galburr: Uhm...because I'm a...uhm...wizard, and I worship...well...um...Corellon Larethian. Livaraenal the Eladrin Ranger: HAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! You're joking, right? Galburr: No, pointy ears, and I'll ram my orb, staff and wand up your !@#$! if you laugh again. Sparnackle Grimtooth, Tiefling Warlock: Oh, you've got to be kidding me. Not this again. Galburr, walking out in front of the party: Galburr Hammersong, of Clan Hammersong, begs entrance to Citadel Felbarr, in the name of the Soul Forger and all of his people! Gate Guard: Galburr Hammersong? Aren't you...that dwarf who worships the pointy eared twerp god? Galburr: Yeah! Group of Gate Guards: HAHAHHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! Sparnackle sighs. Livaraenal sighs. In unison: Here we go again with the orb, staff, and wand stuffing. Galburr glares at the two. Livaraenal: It wasn't me! I swear! I swear...sputter...choke...HAHHAHAHAHAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Green Elven Vampire 12-10-07, 06:03 PM	Msatran is absolutely right!!!
GreenKnight 12-10-07, 06:06 PM	That's a far cry from getting lynched by Dwarves everywhere you go. But let me add, how would anyone even know? Say the Dwarf let the clanhold and took up worshipping Corellon afterwards. So how would anyone even know that he worships Corellon? It's not as if he's got Corellon's name engraved in burning sigils on his forehead. And once again, not every Dwarf comes from a traditional Dwarven clanhold. What about the Dwarf who was born and raised in Waterdeep? You think he'd get much trouble, there?
Stigger 12-10-07, 06:41 PM	I can just imagine a dwarven wizard going to church for services one day... that's not gonna be pretty.
GreenKnight 12-10-07, 07:03 PM	I doubt it'd be anywhere near as ugly as when Drizzt goes to services with other Mielikki worshippers.
Kenzuki 12-10-07, 07:58 PM	The worst that could happen would be for the dwarves to shave his beard off, as we all know for a dwarf that is a fate worse than death.
MerrikCale 12-10-07, 08:58 PM	Don't be hating Southerners now. I'm not. Just saying is all. Disney has chosen not to release this movie for obvious, racial reasons
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-10-07, 09:29 PM	I'm not. Just saying is all. Disney has chosen not to release this movie for obvious, racial reasons There's an interesting article about it here: http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/sots.asp
Kenzuki 12-10-07, 10:09 PM	I think they should. The only people who would be offended by it are those that look for things to be offended by. Case in point Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. It's actually a pretty good movie.
msatran 12-10-07, 11:14 PM	Well, yeah, but that doesn't matter anymore, because female dwarves don't have beards anymore. !@#$%%!!@#$!!!! IMHO when they did that, it was kind of like slandering the dwarf race right there. One of the best characters I ever saw was a female dwarf who had the most lustrous, full beard you could possibly imagine. No one knew the character was a girl for TWELVE levels.
Vulpes 12-10-07, 11:59 PM	I think a dwarf who worshipped Corellon would get a lot of strange looks and "What the hell, dwarf?" conversations, but nothing much more.
Sir_Shadow 12-11-07, 12:22 AM	Dwarves are not human. No matter where a dwarf is , no matter if he's amongst humans or not he's still a dwarf. It doesnt matter if he lives in the Rift or in Waterdeep. Born and raised in either. Dwarves don't change. Human,s halflings, elves may adopt other cultures and lifestyles, a dwarf won't. Not if he has any pride. A dwarf wouldnt just leave his clan and go off worshipping Correllon (not that he'd be all that welcome). If he did that he'd probably never be allowed back home. And that may not mean anything to you but it would be like an elf never being allowed to be around nature ever again. But it would be worse. Because The first hint of a dwarf not following traditions, or heaven forbid not following the wishes of his clan (like : stop that damn pointy ear foolishness and get back to being a dwarf damn it) and he's cut off from the clan. Cut off from everything that makes him what he is. Aside from being a god of pointy eared leaf eating pansies no dwarf would ever even contemplate not following the god of the dwarves/his clan. Its just not done. Conformity and tradition (of which faith is a big part) are part of what makes dwarves who they are. No dwarf would be comfortable or particularly freindly for that matter, to any dwarf who broke from his clan and tradition. Word would get around very quickly and outside his clan they'd just act liek he didnt exist, the clan though would either force him to follow tradition or exile them and strip their name from the clan. Dwarves are not like any other race. Dwarves do not take kindly to change.
GreenKnight 12-11-07, 12:47 AM	But it would be worse. Because The first hint of a dwarf not following traditions, or heaven forbid not following the wishes of his clan (like : stop that damn pointy ear foolishness and get back to being a dwarf damn it) and he's cut off from the clan. Cut off from everything that makes him what he is. So how do you explain Dwarven adventurers? Aside from being a god of pointy eared leaf eating pansies no dwarf would ever even contemplate not following the god of the dwarves/his clan. Its just not done. Conformity and tradition (of which faith is a big part) are part of what makes dwarves who they are. So how do you explain all the Dwarves who worship human deities?
msatran 12-11-07, 12:56 AM	See his post. No pride.
GreenKnight 12-11-07, 01:05 AM	How about Pikel Bouldershoulder (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Pikel_Bouldershoulder)? Dwarven Druid of Mielikki (Who sometimes appears as a human, and sometimes as an elf). I haven't read the Drizzt books, so how's he treated? He have no pride? His brother seems like a pretty standard dwarf, and yet he hasn't cut his brother off.
Sir_Shadow 12-11-07, 01:22 AM	Dwarven adventurers are easy and theres a great deal of reasons (far to many to name here) why a dwarf would venture out to make a name for themselves and to bring honor to their clan with their skills. Travelling out in the world is something alot of dwarves do when they're young and they eventually grow out of it. But dwarves worshipping other gods that arent dwarves...thats kinda frowned upon. They may venerate them and give them the respect they deserve but a dwarf with any sense doesnt have much in common with any other races deities. Seriously, asking why a dwarf wouldn't worship Correllon is like asking why there arent tribes of orcs that venerate Correllon (aside from hating elves in general). Dwarves see things different than humans, elves and any other race, so theres not very much likely hood that they'd worship a god that saw things differently. A dwarven druid is to horrible to even contemplate. A dwarf that loves trees and isnt looking to make things out of them? If its in a Drizzt book that explains alot.
msatran 12-11-07, 01:28 AM	Because Pikel is touched in the head, and Ivan knows it. Ivan protects Pikel from the disdain of other dwarves because Pikel isn't always fully aware of what's going on socially. He's a dwarf with a disability. It's Ivan's responsibility to help him. If Pikel fully understood why he was ostracized, and why being a druid was considered strange and uncomfortable by other dwarves, then Ivan might cut him off. But Pikel is sadly limited in his comprehension of the world, and Ivan loves him more than any brother in the world. That makes sense to me.
GreenKnight 12-11-07, 01:28 AM	But dwarves worshipping other gods that arent dwarves...thats kinda frowned upon. They may venerate them and give them the respect they deserve but a dwarf with any sense doesnt have much in common with any other races deities. Except that Dwarves do in fact worship human deities. And no one says boo about it. And if they couldn't, then why don't the rules flat out state "Dwarves may only worship dwarf deities"? And the second part is where you make your mistake. Just because you're traditionally worshipped by one race or another, it doesn't make you a member of that race. For instance, look at Mielikki and Gond. They're considered traditionally human gods, but they also appear as an elf or gnome, respectively. Likewise, just because Corellon appears to elves as an elf, it doesn't mean he can't appear to a dwarf in a different form (He doesn't even appear as a "he" to elves most of the time, and appears as a "she" sometimes). Say as a living eldritch blue flame, or even a dwarf. As for Orcs and Corellon, that's not at all comparable, as Corellon is specifically opposed to Orcs, as Gruumsh is specifically opposed to Elves. And yes, there is a Dwarven Druid. He is canon. Now, how is he treated in the books? Because if he isn't treated as you would say such a character would be treated, then you're arguing your own house rules, and not canon.
Sir_Shadow 12-11-07, 01:43 AM	Except that Dwarves do in fact worship human deities. And no one says boo about it. And if they couldn't, then why don't the rules flat out state "Dwarves may only worship dwarf deities"? Because there are no rules for what deities any race can worship. Just because its plausible in the rules to have an orc high priest of Correllon doesnt mean it's actually a good idea or that said orc would be recognized by the other clerics let alone the deity themselves. And the second part is where you make your mistake. Just because you're traditionally worshipped by one race or another, it doesn't make you a member of that race. For instance, look at Mielikki and Gond. They're considered traditionally human gods, but they also appear as an elf or gnome, respectively. Likewise, just because Corellon appears to elves as an elf, it doesn't mean he can't appear to a dwarf in a different form (He doesn't even appear as a "he" to elves most of the time, and appears as a "she" sometimes). Say as a living eldritch blue flame, or even a dwarf. Gond is worshipped by gnomes because he washed up in Lantan AS a gnome. If a traditional human god gets cast out of the planes and takes the form of a gnome that tells the gnomes that maybe he actually isnt a human god after all. And besides that, a dwarf would be insulted if Correllon appeared as a dwarf as he'd probably get it all wrong. Likewise correllon would probably be horrified at the thought of being a dwarf let alone being worshipped by them. As for Orcs and Corellon, that's not at all comparable, as Corellon is specifically opposed to Orcs, as Gruumsh is specifically opposed to Elves. It is comparable because its still a god that has never been overly friendly with dwarves. And yes, there is a Dwarven Druid. He is canon. Now, how is he treated in the books? Because if he isn't treated as you would say such a character would be treated, then you're arguing your own house rules, and not canon. I don't read Salvatore, I think he's a horribly formulaic writer so using him as a source for what dwarves are against...oh I dunno 30 or so years of books, magazine articles, and such taht say what dwarves are is not going to do anything. That and mstran already answered that part. He's touched in the head. Any dwarf that doesnt follow tradition is at the very least a bit odd. And if he's got brothers its their job to take care of him no matter how insane he may be. And a dwarf that looks at a tree and thinks anything other than "Hmm, that'd make a nice handle for my axe" is definately insane.
GreenKnight 12-11-07, 02:07 AM	Because there are no rules for what deities any race can worship. Just because its plausible in the rules to have an orc high priest of Correllon doesnt mean it's actually a good idea or that said orc would be recognized by the other clerics let alone the deity themselves. An Orc? Maybe not. But a Dwarf? If Mielikki can accept a Drow as a worshipper, then Corellon can certainly accept a Dwarf as a worshipper. And is there any lore you can point to that states unequivocally that dwarves don't ever worship human gods? Or that the ones that do aren't welcomed back into Dwarven communities? Gond is worshipped by gnomes because he washed up in Lantan AS a gnome. If a traditional human god gets cast out of the planes and takes the form of a gnome that tells the gnomes that maybe he actually isnt a human god after all. Exactly. He appeared as a Gnome and they suddenly view him as a gnome god. Likewise, if Corellon showed up to Dwarves as a Dwarf then they'd believe him to be just that. He's a god, not an elf with superpowers. He can be anything he wants to be. And besides that, a dwarf would be insulted if Correllon appeared as a dwarf as he'd probably get it all wrong. That's just silly. Mielikki can convince elves that she's an elf, and Gond can convince gnomes that he's a gnome, but Corellon, a Greater God, can't pull it off? Likewise correllon would probably be horrified at the thought of being a dwarf let alone being worshipped by them. Corellon's a god. The power of gods is derived from worship. One would think any god would look for any opportunity to expand his base of worship. It is comparable because its still a god that has never been overly friendly with dwarves. Not at all. Gruumsh is his archnemesis and Orcs are the declared enemy of Elves. There's a vast gulf between the relationship between Elves and Dwarves and Elves and Orcs. I don't read Salvatore, I think he's a horribly formulaic writer so using him as a source for what dwarves are against...oh I dunno 30 or so years of books, magazine articles, and such taht say what dwarves are is not going to do anything. Well, if there's that much information, I don't suppose you can pull out a source of some sort to back up your assertions?
Sir_Shadow 12-11-07, 02:25 AM	An Orc? Maybe not. But a Dwarf? If Mielikki can accept a Drow as a worshipper, then Corellon can certainly accept a Dwarf as a worshipper. And is there any lore you can point to that states unequivocally that dwarves don't ever worship human gods? Or that the ones that do aren't welcomed back into Dwarven communities? Human gods accept anyone. Demi human gods are racial gods. Theres a difference between Mielikki and Correllon or Moradin. Correllon and Moradin are creator gods. They created the elves and dwarves respectively. There has never been an official god that created humans that I can recall. So you can't classify human and racial pantheons the same way. The human gods didn't create the humans, Correllon/Moradin and all the rest created their people. Exactly. He appeared as a Gnome and they suddenly view him as a gnome god. Likewise, if Corellon showed up to Dwarves as a Dwarf then they'd believe him to be just that. He's a god, not an elf with superpowers. He can be anything he wants to be. That's just silly. Mielikki can convince elves that she's an elf, and Gond can convince gnomes that he's a gnome, but Corellon, a Greater God, can't pull it off? Again, Creator god. Moradin created the dwarves. Correllon the elves. Both races know this. No dwarf would accept that correllon was actually a dwarf any more than an elf would accept that Moradin was an elf. Gond is somewhat of a special case in that unlike the other gods he appeared in tangible avatar form as a gnome. You didnt see Bane showing up as an orc. You didn't see any of the Seldarine as anything other than being elven. No other god that I can recall appeared in that time frame as anything other than what they actually are. Hence, Gond appeared as a Gnome, therefore he must really be a gnome somehow. Corellon's a god. The power of gods is derived from worship. One would think any god would look for any opportunity to expand his base of worship. Human gods yes, the Seldarine and other racial pantheons don't often pilfer from other races. They tend to be what they are. Racial Gods. Not at all. Gruumsh is his archnemesis and Orcs are the declared enemy of Elves. There's a vast gulf between the relationship between Elves and Dwarves and Elves and Orcs. That would depend on who you asked. An elf or a dwarf. Sometimes theres not much different between an elf and an orc. They're both mishapen, ugly and think they're better than everyone else. Well, if there's that much information, I don't suppose you can pull out a source of some sort to back up your assertions? I'm not going to go through all my books, but try reading the 2E complete book of dwarves, or maybe the various Dragon articles (cant remember which one the really good article was in) There is just as much information about dwarves and their culture out there as their is elves. You just have to look harder for the dwarven stuff cause elves whine if they arent in the spotlight. :D
GreenKnight 12-11-07, 02:29 AM	Can you suggest any 3E stuff? Because according to 2E, Dwarves had a dim view of magic. And lo and behold, Dwarf Wizards everywhere in 3E. You just have to look harder for the dwarven stuff cause elves whine if they arent in the spotlight. :D And that's the FIRST thing you've said that I agree with.:P
Sir_Shadow 12-11-07, 02:43 AM	Can you suggest any 3E stuff? Because according to 2E, Dwarves had a dim view of magic. And lo and behold, Dwarf Wizards everywhere in 3E. Oh please don't remind me. Thunder Blessing indeed. I guess I should be greatful that there was at least a semi plausible reason for that other than "well in 3E anyone can be anything". I still don't let dwarves be wizards or sorcerers I don't care what the damn book says on that. Unless its got something to do with carving runes. Honestly as far as 3E goes I couldn't tell you which books have really good dwarf information because apparently dwarves arent cool enough to warrent such things like pointy ears are. Least they arent going to be relagated to the Monster manual like the poor gnomes or changed into kender like the halflings have been (or riding dinosaurs whatever the case may be). Someone should really take a Nautiloid to Athas and grab some of their halflings and drop them in Lurien just for a laugh. Furchin were nice too. Any halfling that looks more like a dwarf than a hobbit can't be all that bad. But for 3E books I dunno. Still, unless like the Thunder Blessing, its changed, then 2E stuff is still canon. And that's the FIRST thing you've said that I agree with.:P Tell me about it, its to the point where you cant throw a rock without discovering a new elven subrace. If I had my way they'd be back to where they belong. Making shoes or toys. One of the other :D
msatran 12-11-07, 06:12 AM	Actually, a friend of mine and I were going to do this. Play Dwarves with the Thunder Twin feat. Both of us were going to take ONE level of fighter. Then, he was going to take a male dwarf druid, and I was going to take a female dwarf wizard from there on out. (These were chosen for available Reaper minis...) He was going to take all the wildshape feats, and I was going to take Energy Substitution: Cold, Spell Thematics: Ice, and the Frost Wizard PRC from FrostBurn. Ready for it... THUNDER TWIN POWERS....ACTIVATE!!!!!! Shape of...a Feral Dire Lion! Summon...an Ice Beast!!!!!!!! You can worship Marthammor and be a druid. Heck, you can worship any elemental god (Which Dwarves wouldn't have a problem with), and be a druid.
Kenzuki 12-11-07, 08:00 AM	Gond is somewhat of a special case in that unlike the other gods he appeared in tangible avatar form as a gnome. You didnt see Bane showing up as an orc. You didn't see any of the Seldarine as anything other than being elven. No other god that I can recall appeared in that time frame as anything other than what they actually are. Hence, Gond appeared as a Gnome, therefore he must really be a gnome somehow Didn't Mask appear as a sword. So does this mean that the god Mask is really a sword?
Alediran 12-11-07, 08:03 AM	Actually, a friend of mine and I were going to do this. Play Dwarves with the Thunder Twin feat. Both of us were going to take ONE level of fighter. Then, he was going to take a male dwarf druid, and I was going to take a female dwarf wizard from there on out. (These were chosen for available Reaper minis...) He was going to take all the wildshape feats, and I was going to take Energy Substitution: Cold, Spell Thematics: Ice, and the Frost Wizard PRC from FrostBurn. Ready for it... THUNDER TWIN POWERS....ACTIVATE!!!!!! Shape of...a Feral Dire Lion! Summon...an Ice Beast!!!!!!!! ROFLMAONPMP. And btw little dwarven friend, you still forget that every time dwarves are in danger it's us the "faries" that save your skin.
Kenzuki 12-11-07, 08:24 AM	Dwarves and Elves are actually like little and big brothers. They are opposites in everyway possible but when the bully from down the street comes to hurt them (orcs) they will forget their differences and gank the bully and his lackies (the goblins). Then at the end of the day the two get drunk and get their money stolen by the smart human nearbye. This is because we humans are superior to both elves and dwarves and when those two races can no longer adapt to the world we shall rule it fully. Eventually you won't have to worry about choosing the elven god or the dwarven god because with no elves or dwarves around they will have to become human gods or die off and be forgotten. The new order is coming.....are you prepared?
The_Shaman 12-11-07, 09:02 AM	I think that people tend to forget that you don't need to worship only 1 god/dess. You have one personal deity, just like medieval people believed they had a personal saint, but that is not an exclusive relationship. Most dwarves venerate at least several of the deities of the dwarven pantheon. If Kombi Nailsplitter prays to Sharindlar when sorely injured or smitten by the fair whiskers of a dwarven lass, to Vergadain when celebrating a profitable deal, and to Dumathoin when he digs out a large gemstone, does that make him any less dwarven? Of course not. And neither does it interfere with his personal dedication to Clangeddin. Most FR religions and the setting itself are quite polytheistic in that regard and are not exclusive towards other beliefs* Likewise, a dwarven wizard probably won't necessarily get in trouble for saying the occasional prayer to Corellon, especially if Corellon gets to be the main deity of magic in 4E (which, of course, will probably make dwarves more suspect of magic to begin with, but that's another story). Just because he pays homage to Corellon for his gifts doesn't mean he should not pay homage to Moradin and the rest of the dwarven pantheon for theirs. Dwarves may be communitarian, but they also value their mental personal space and do not appreciate nosyness, so probably no one would ask around which deity he puts first. If he participates in the usual religious and social practices, he may be considered an eccentric, but no more than a farmer who picked up the veneration of Chauntea or a merchant who came to adhere to Waukeen's dogma on the side. *: Most, not all. By and large, FR is quite polytheistic, but it has some exceptions. The idea that Ao can at any moment do anything he wants to the other so-called deities is decidedly monotheistic. In you think of it that way, he's the sole god on Toril - he just uses the others as a form of celestial bureaucracy.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-11-07, 09:54 AM	I have to say, I see no problem with dwarves worshiping non-dwarven deities (even Correllon).:) I would not expect it to be very common though.
The_Shaman 12-11-07, 10:12 AM	Oh, definitely. Corellon probably wouldn't crack the top 10 deities of choice among dwarven mages. I was merely describing a possible situation, not a likely one.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-11-07, 10:15 AM	Oh, definitely. Corellon probably wouldn't crack the top 10 deities of choice among dwarven mages. I was merely describing a possible situation, not a likely one. Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide featured a dwarven mage who was also (apparently) a cleric of Mystra. He was also the PC's mentor.:) I liked the character, so far be it from me to say that he was insane or should have worshipped a dwarven god (of course, he was also an adventurer and no longer lived among his dwarven kin, anyway).
Alediran 12-11-07, 10:28 AM	Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide featured a dwarven mage who was also (apparently) a cleric of Mystra. He was also the PC's mentor.:) I liked the character, so far be it from me to say that he was insane or should have worshipped a dwarven god (of course, he was also an adventurer and no longer lived among his dwarven kin, anyway). That dwarf should be considered a Mystic Theurgee because he was both a Wizard and Cleric.
elondir 12-11-07, 10:55 AM	Yet another reason to play homebrew.
The_Shaman 12-11-07, 10:56 AM	Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide featured a dwarven mage who was also (apparently) a cleric of Mystra. He was also the PC's mentor.:) I liked the character, so far be it from me to say that he was insane or should have worshipped a dwarven god (of course, he was also an adventurer and no longer lived among his dwarven kin, anyway). And he was a Harper, to boot. Definitely an unconventional character, but an interesting one.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-11-07, 11:14 AM	That dwarf should be considered a Mystic Theurgee because he was both a Wizard and Cleric. There was no Mystic Theurge PrC in that game.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-11-07, 11:15 AM	And he was a Harper, to boot. Definitely an unconventional character, but an interesting one. Indeed!
Fire_Wraith 12-11-07, 12:28 PM	I'd say this whole thing bothers me, but as others have pointed out, this is just dumping more bales of straw onto a camel that already died from a broken back. I don't have a problem with the concept of deities worshipped by multiple races, that have different names for each race - Krynn was an example of this. However, this is the sort of thing you establish at the beginning. Radical changes like this in a well-established setting, especially one with the sort of history and following the Realms has, is just something that will tick people off. Ultimately, the real problem I have with all of these changes has less to do with the specific changes themselves, and more to do with a growing impression I have that the designers just don't care what I, or many others, think, or what we want in the Realms. Worse, I get the impression they're not even willing to listen and take that into account, whatsoever, regardless of any reasonable arguments or evidence that what they have planned may not be the best idea for the setting from a purely monetary standpoint, or that there are numerous ways to address the concerns and problems the designers believe exist without needing to resort to changes that almost feel like they were conceived to be offensive to many of the long-time players. Yes, I realize that it almost certainly wasn't WoTC's intent to try and **** off as many existing FR players as they could - but a lot of times it feels like that, when we keep getting more bad news on top of bad news. I'll say it again: I'd rather see a completely restarted/redone/reborn FR setting with all attendant changes, than see them keep trying to hack up and sew new bits and pieces on to what seems to be becoming an utter monstrosity.
elondir 12-11-07, 04:19 PM	This is a lot like what TSR did to Greyhawk in the 90's: destroy the campaign setting (Greyhawk) enough that demand for products trickles off, so that a new setting (Forgotten Realms) can replace it.
Alediran 12-11-07, 04:23 PM	This is a lot like what TSR did to Greyhawk in the 90's: destroy the campaign setting (Greyhawk) enough that demand for products trickles off, so that a new setting (Forgotten Realms) can replace it. And people told us we were paranoid about Eberron replacing the Realms :rolleyes:
msatran 12-11-07, 06:42 PM	There's a flaw in that theory, though. The flaw is that if Wizards publishes no Forgotten Realms sourcebooks for 1 year, all the rights REVERT to Ed Greenwood. Novels don't count. They're legally obligated to produce one product each year, or fzzt! Suddenly, the property is in the hands of its creator.
MerrikCale 12-11-07, 08:56 PM	Actually, a friend of mine and I were going to do this. Play Dwarves with the Thunder Twin feat. Both of us were going to take ONE level of fighter. Then, he was going to take a male dwarf druid, and I was going to take a female dwarf wizard from there on out. (These were chosen for available Reaper minis...) He was going to take all the wildshape feats, and I was going to take Energy Substitution: Cold, Spell Thematics: Ice, and the Frost Wizard PRC from FrostBurn. Ready for it... THUNDER TWIN POWERS....ACTIVATE!!!!!! Shape of...a Feral Dire Lion! Summon...an Ice Beast!!!!!!!! You can worship Marthammor and be a druid. Heck, you can worship any elemental god (Which Dwarves wouldn't have a problem with), and be a druid. where's Black Manta and Grodd?
Fire_Wraith 12-11-07, 10:56 PM	There's a flaw in that theory, though. The flaw is that if Wizards publishes no Forgotten Realms sourcebooks for 1 year, all the rights REVERT to Ed Greenwood. Novels don't count. They're legally obligated to produce one product each year, or fzzt! Suddenly, the property is in the hands of its creator. Yeah... and what a retcon *that* would probably lead to... not that it'd be a bad thing, in that case, I suspect. :D
msatran 12-11-07, 11:14 PM	THere is no spellplague. There is no Time of Troubles. There is no Cyrinishad. There is no City of Shade. I am... HAPPY....So HAPPY!!!!! Oh, and that's Advanced Darktentacles and Gargantuan Advanced Half-Fiend Half-Farspawn Dire Ape to you, Merrik. :)
Lord Karsus 12-11-07, 11:38 PM	Yeah... and what a retcon *that* would probably lead to... not that it'd be a bad thing, in that case, I suspect. :D -At that point, why bother anymore? I'd rather see FR stay in the hands of WotC in it's soon-to-be (sorry) state, then revert to Ed, and chalk everything up to Elminster's overactive imagination, or a possible future in Savras' looking glass, or some such with a massive retcon. Oh, and that's Advanced Darktentacles and Gargantuan Advanced Half-Fiend Half-Farspawn Dire Ape to you, Merrik. :) -Does anyone else remember the Day of the Tentacle video game?
Green Elven Vampire 12-11-07, 11:46 PM	No, but I do remember playing Dungeons and Dragons in 1984 on Colecovision (does anyone remember colecovision?) It was like Atari but cooler!
AskaniPsion 12-12-07, 12:08 AM	where's Black Manta and Grodd? Hanging out with Cheetah & Toyman. :D
Lord Karsus 12-12-07, 12:10 AM	Hanging out with Cheetah & Toyman. :D -None of them are even a speck on the radar of Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister, however! :cool:
AskaniPsion 12-12-07, 12:27 AM	-None of them are even a speck on the radar of Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister, however! :cool: I always preferred the White Queen Emma Frost and the Black Queen Selene. It doesn't make sense they would use the name Sehanine for Core but then stick with Selune in FR. They need to just keep Sehanine in both. It would be cool if Sehanine just absorbed Selune since Sehanine was of higher divine status thus making her the equal of Shar.
GreenKnight 12-12-07, 12:32 AM	Nah, that'd suck even worse, as Selune is integral to Realms history. All things considered, if it was really necessary to trim down the number of gods, and combine them into a single pantheon, then I'd prefer it if Ao were to decree there could only be one pantheon, and that only one god holding a specific portfolio could stick around, while the rest would either have to pack up and go, or be demoted to Demigod status in Realmspace. Either Ao decides who gets to stay and who gets to go, they work it out themselves, they duel for the right of hanging around, whatever. I'd much rather have Sehanine just leave and have her worshippers picked up by Selune, Corellon, or whomever then having them retconned into the same being.
AskaniPsion 12-12-07, 07:03 AM	What can simply happen is that Shar goes after the weaker Selune and is about to destoy her. Selune goes to Sehanine for help and the weakened Selune is absorbed by Sehanine. Sehanine then beats Shar back. With the absorbing of Selune, Sehanine becomes a Greater Goddess.
Fire_Wraith 12-12-07, 08:32 AM	-At that point, why bother anymore? I'd rather see FR stay in the hands of WotC in it's soon-to-be (sorry) state, then revert to Ed, and chalk everything up to Elminster's overactive imagination, or a possible future in Savras' looking glass, or some such with a massive retcon. That's the basic scenario I was envisioning, yes - a retcon after it reverts to undo all of the undesired changes.
Lord Karsus 12-12-07, 10:08 AM	That's the basic scenario I was envisioning, yes - a retcon after it reverts to undo all of the undesired changes. -Exactly. Why bother? That just further hurts the integrity of the setting, and throws everyone for a loop.
The_Shaman 12-12-07, 10:24 AM	I don't have that many FR handbooks from earlier editions, but hasn't something like that happened before? I think most high-end NPCs were significantly lower in level. 3rd edition buffed them up, and now people say FR NPCs are overpowered compared to those in other settings. I wouldn't be surprised if that's behind the death of some major FR NPCs and that we'll see many of the others weakened in 4th.
GreenKnight 12-12-07, 11:09 AM	I think most high-end NPCs were significantly lower in level. 3rd edition buffed them up, and now people say FR NPCs are overpowered compared to those in other settings. Isn't that to be expected, though? After all, with the passage of time, a character is bound to level up. Anyway, taking a look at the Heroes Lorebook, Villains Lorebook and the FRCS, we've got the following. Alusair Obarskyr Fighter 6 Fighter 7/Ranger 1/Purple Dragon Knight 2 Alustriel Wizard 24 Wizard 20/Sorcerer 2/Archmage 2 Drizzt Do'Urden Ranger 16 Fighter 10/Barbarian 1/Ranger 5 Elminster Wizard 29 Wizard 20/Archmage 5/Epic 4/Cleric 3/Rogue 2/Fighter 1 Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun Wizard 27 Wizard 20/Archmage 3/Epic 4 Mirt Thief 7 Fighter 8/Rogue 5 The Simbul Wizard 30 Sorcerer 20/Wizard 10/Archmage 2 Storm Silverhand Bard 22 Sorcerer 12/Bard 8/Fighter 4/Rogue 1/Harper Scout 3 Artemis Entreri Thief 11/Fighter 15 Rogue 4/Fighter 12/Ranger 1/Assassin 1 Elaith "The Serpent" Craulnober Fighter 9/Wizard 9 Fighter 3/Wizard 9 Fzoul Chembryl Cleric 16 Cleric 17/Hierophant 2 Halaster Blackcloak Wizard 30 Wizard 20/Archmage 5/Epic 5 Manshoon Wizard 19 Wizard 20/Archmage 2/Epic 3 Szass Tam Necromancer 29 Necromancer 10/Red Wizard 10/Archmage 2/Epic 7 Anyway, while it's a small sample, it's not so bad. Some gained levels, others simply reshuffled levels they already had into different classes, while some lost levels (Artemis Entreri seems to have been the one hit the hardest).
Fire_Wraith 12-12-07, 11:17 AM	I'd rather see no crazy changes, and instead, just moderate changes that most of us can agree on and get behind. Failing that, I'd rather see the designers just make it as an entirely new version, rather than try to twist and contort existing FR into what they want it to be. And failing *that*, well, I'd rather let Ed have it back, and fix what needs fixing, undo what needs undoing. It's not ideal at this point, but I have a lot more confidence in a reverted Realms, rather than with the current group, at least based on everything I've heard so far, and the attitude I feel we have gotten from the designers in response to our critiques. As far as the level comparisons go, remember that multi- and dual class characters don't have the same levels as they would in 3.0/3.5. A level 10/10 Elven Fighter Mage is actually a level 10 character (or, to go purely off xp totals, roughly 11th level, IIRC). Much the same goes for Dual-Class... i.e., Artemis in 2nd is not a level 27 character, he's roughly level 16/17 or so. Ditto Elaith, who in 2nd edition is basically a level 10ish character, and has become 12th. There still doesn't seem to be any massive increase in power, though.
Alediran 12-12-07, 11:28 AM	Not in power, but in player's selfishness and ego.
Lord Karsus 12-12-07, 11:37 AM	After all, with the passage of time, a character is bound to level up. -Not all the time, no. For example, the Fighter who retires and settles down to become a bartender really doesn't fit the criteria of being about to level up via the passage of time. But, generally speaking, you are correct. A bit of time passed between the 2e Realms and the 3e Realms.
GreenKnight 12-12-07, 12:43 PM	-Not all the time, no. For example, the Fighter who retires and settles down to become a bartender really doesn't fit the criteria of being about to level up via the passage of time. But, generally speaking, you are correct. A bit of time passed between the 2e Realms and the 3e Realms. Should've been more specific, in that character's who regularly see action, after a while, are bound to level up. Alusair is a good example, as she's been quite busy during those intervening years.
MerrikCale 12-12-07, 11:28 PM	-None of them are even a speck on the radar of Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister, however! :cool: you got that right. Make Mine Marvel! 'nuff said
GreenKnight 12-12-07, 11:49 PM	you got that right. Make Mine Marvel! 'nuff said Pfft. I'll take your Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister and raise you Black Adam and Darkseid. Make Mine DC! :D
Lord Karsus 12-12-07, 11:55 PM	Pfft. I'll take your Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister and raise you Black Adam and Darkseid. -I'll take your Black Adam and Darkseid and raise you a Silver Surfer and Cosmic Spider-Man. Make Mine DC! :D -DC=Double Crappy.
GreenKnight 12-13-07, 12:07 AM	-I'll take your Black Adam and Darkseid and raise you a Silver Surfer and Cosmic Spider-Man. I'll see your Silver Surfer and Cosmic Spider-Man and raise you Cyborg Superman and Sinestro. -DC=Double Crappy. Marvel = House of Ideas-Lifted-From-DC
Lord Karsus 12-13-07, 12:14 AM	I'll see your Silver Surfer and Cosmic Spider-Man and raise you Cyborg Superman and Sinestro. -I'll see your Cyborg Superman and Sinestro and raise you one Skrull Empire and one Shi'ar Empire. Marvel = House of Ideas-Lifted-From-DC Marvel = House of Ideas-Lifted-From-DC-and-then-modified-such-that-they-no-longer-really-resemble-the-original-idea-thus-becoming-their-own original-idea-and-totally-kicking-the-ass-of-DCs-original-concepts
GreenKnight 12-13-07, 12:19 AM	-I'll see your Cyborg Superman and Sinestro and raise you one Skrull Empire and one Shi'ar Empire. I'll see your Skrull Empire and Shi'ar Empire and raise you Thanagar and the Sinestro Corps. Marvel = House of Ideas-Lifted-From-DC-and-then-modified-such-that-they-no-longer-really-resemble-the-original-idea-thus-becoming-their-own original-idea-and-totally-kicking-the-ass-of-DCs-original-concepts Marvel = "Let's bring back the Great Lakes Avengers so we can call the title 'GLA' and hope the people looking for 'JLA' screw up and buy it, intead"
Lord Karsus 12-13-07, 12:20 AM	-I'm tired, and going to sleep, but don't think this is over! :: Shakes Fist ::
GreenKnight 12-13-07, 12:24 AM	*cackles with glee* :evillaugh And I haven't even pulled out the big guns, yet. :plotting:
Stigger 12-13-07, 01:04 AM	I preferred Dark Horse back when I still read comics... SLG too. The rest were just high-gloss covers with illustrated explosions between them... :P ;)
GreenKnight 12-13-07, 01:15 AM	Dark Horse was great. I'm hoping to buy some omnibus collections they're putting out of all their Predator and Aliens mini-series in a couple weeks. That'd make for some great reading.
Stigger 12-13-07, 01:41 AM	Hmmm... good to know. Might have to take a trip to the CB shop to take a look at those.
GreenKnight 12-13-07, 02:19 AM	Gentlemen... BEHOLD! I... HAVE LINKS! Aliens Vs. Predator Omnibus Vol. 1 (http://www.amazon.com/Aliens-vs-Predator-Omnibus-Vol/dp/1593077351) Aliens Vs. Predator Omnibus Vol. 2 (http://www.amazon.com/Aliens-Vs-Predator-Omnibus-Vs/dp/1593078293) Aliens Omnibus Vol. 1 (http://www.amazon.com/Aliens-Omnibus-Vol-Mark-Verheiden/dp/1593077270/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197530134&sr=1-1) Aliens Omnibus Vol. 2 (http://www.amazon.com/Aliens-Omnibus-2-Various/dp/1593078285/ref=pd_sim_b_img_3) Predator Omnibus Vol. 1 (http://www.amazon.com/Predator-Omnibus-1-Mark-Verheiden/dp/1593077327/ref=pd_sim_b_img_4) Now go forth and multiply... your enjoyment of the Aliens and the Predators. Hmm, I wonder if they got Terminator and Robocop omnibus's, too?
Kenzuki 12-13-07, 09:22 AM	Personally I think Superman is an idiot. I mean he never uses his powers like he could. For example when he's against Luthor. He could just zoom in at lightspeed and crush his head in. But nooooooo he has to stand in front of him and TALK to him and let Lex pull out some kryptonite on him.....
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-13-07, 10:58 AM	Personally I think Superman is an idiot. I mean he never uses his powers like he could. For example when he's against Luthor. He could just zoom in at lightspeed and crush his head in. Then he wouldn't truly be Superman anymore.
msatran 12-13-07, 01:08 PM	Hey. On the Hero System Boards, I wrote this. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1426277#post1426277 It's a little old, but it gets the point across about Superman.
Stigger 12-13-07, 04:36 PM	Souds about right to me Msatran. Its kinda like playing an exalted character, brutal expediency goes out the window, and you cleave to the highest common denominator.
MerrikCale 12-13-07, 07:04 PM	Marvel = "Let's bring back the Great Lakes Avengers so we can call the title 'GLA' and hope the people looking for 'JLA' screw up and buy it, intead" Perhaps but they were still a better team than that Detroit JLA. Vibe? C'mon man
Lord Karsus 12-13-07, 07:21 PM	-Corellon Larethian can kick the collective ass of the Sinestro Corps with ease.
msatran 12-13-07, 07:40 PM	Actually, in the Realms, I loathe the idea of the exalted character. Here's why. I am an exalted Ranger of Meilikki. I am the paragon of my religion. I am a noted and feared steelsword. My party of adventurers are attacked in the wilderness by Orcs, and we take prisoners. I am the law. The law clearly and unequivocably states that pretty much, I can make any judgement I want. I execute them. According to Exalted behavior for Meilikki, it should be correct to do this. However, if you're an exalted worshipper of most other deities, no. The rules for Exalted behavior are too 20th century for their own good, and create conflicts when other characters who are not exalted share the same religion with this person. Fights will erupt, and frequently. I have one player who skirts the line of Exalted behavior a lot. It angers a lot of the other characters greatly. Several times, there have been comments of "They're endangering our survival." Now, in my mind, this is the price of playing a character with a near-saintly attitude in a brutal world, but some people say I'm not sympathetic enough. So what does this have to do with the Seldarine, just to get the thread back on topic. Well...I'm an elf. I worship Solonor Thelandira. Once an arrow is loosed, it can't be taken back. An exalted character who tries the patience of this deity's worshippers enough may find themselves in a pincushionlike state. Religious conflict vs. Religious tolerance is one of the themes of the Forgotten Realms. What IS good? It's always been a question in the best games I've played. Shredding the Seldarine takes away a vital component of that moral dilemma.
Lord Karsus 12-13-07, 07:47 PM	Well...I'm an elf. I worship Solonor Thelandira. Once an arrow is loosed, it can't be taken back. An exalted character who tries the patience of this deity's worshippers enough may find themselves in a pincushionlike state. -Time Stop. :P
Stigger 12-13-07, 08:04 PM	I think a lot of it depends on how you interpret exalted. If you're approaching it from a peace, love, and harmony quasi-hippie point of view, it would be unbearable in any setting. If you're looking at it in a sort of Jedi way, then it become much more doable. Someone attacks with lethal force, you respond in kind. If they surrender, you show them mercy, if they keep fighting, so do you... prisoners can make it a bit difficult at times in the middle of nowhere, but taking away weaponry besides a dagger and telling them to go home could work just as well. Sure they could come back with buddies at some later point, but they might also take your mercy to heart... True that a lot of that depends on the other players and the DM, but I don't see it as having to be a problem if one approaches it with as broad a view as possible.
Kenzuki 12-13-07, 08:43 PM	"I AM the LAW!" - Judge Dredd.
msatran 12-14-07, 12:57 AM	Stigger, I don't think showing orcs that kind of compassion is likely to have much of a result. The fact that the designers are slowly rewriting Orcs to be that way is actually kind of dumb.
Stigger 12-14-07, 01:44 AM	No, I'd actually agree that those sorts of actions wouldn't probably have much of an effect on them to be honest. But we've had Ondonti orcs in the game for a while, so I think that as an in-character exalted act, it would be something to hope for. In all likelihood it would come back to bite you in the arse, but I think that's half the fun of exalted characters. Hope and optimism in the face of savagery and brutality. I've got a PC at the moment doing just that sort of stuff with her Lliiran priestess, which dovetails nicely with Lliiran philosophy, so it does make quite a bit of sense for her. My point is though, that it doesn't all have to be flowerpetals and hearts, as there are quite a few approaches to exalted characters that aren't nearly as limiting. Could be just two very different play styles though, so to each their own.
johnkretzer 12-14-07, 02:01 AM	Actually, in the Realms, I loathe the idea of the exalted character. As far as I know there is two exalted character in your game. One of them played by me...the other played by another player(who I think misplayed it alot) Here's why. I am an exalted Ranger of Meilikki. I am the paragon of my religion. I am a noted and feared steelsword. Ok I am doing that.....though a low level exalted character aren't that much noted or feared yet. My party of adventurers are attacked in the wilderness by Orcs, and we take prisoners. I am the law. The law clearly and unequivocably states that pretty much, I can make any judgement I want. I execute them. Well this did happen once but it wasn't orcs it was humans. The game takes place in the Lake of Steam area. We attack a force from the city of Mintar lead by a priest of Bane trying to dig up some ancient crypt. We won the fight and my PC asked the survivors if they worshipped Bane or just served the city. I let the one who said they served the city to go back after swearing a oath not to attack her home city. I sent the one guy back to the home city with the one person who proudly said he worshipped Bane so that the city officials can get intelligences from him. If it was orcs her response would have been very different.... According to Exalted behavior for Meilikki, it should be correct to do this. However, if you're an exalted worshipper of most other deities, no. I disagree here again...a exalted follower of Tyr or Torm might also dispense frontier justice there might be others. The rules for Exalted behavior are too 20th century for their own good, and create conflicts when other characters who are not exalted share the same religion with this person. Fights will erupt, and frequently. I again disagree...the world today is alot more brutal then in the past. I have one player who skirts the line of Exalted behavior a lot. It angers a lot of the other characters greatly. Several times, there have been comments of "They're endangering our survival." I am curious is this me? Or that other player? Personaly I think I have done nothing to endanger the party with her Exalted behavior. Now, in my mind, this is the price of playing a character with a near-saintly attitude in a brutal world, but some people say I'm not sympathetic enough. It is...but a hero will pay it gladly... Didn't you just say on the link above that a hero isn't defined by his powers but by his compassion? Doesn't that mean even in a brutal world it is more important to be compassionate? Sorry for this break from the thread.... As to the thread topic...yes I think it is a bad move on WotC's part.
msatran 12-14-07, 02:05 AM	Hey, this genre isn't superheroic, it's heroic fantasy. :) Second, just because I don't like something doesn't mean I won't allow it as a DM. That's not my business to decide. Are you having fun playing the character? Good. Then I'm doing my job.
johnkretzer 12-14-07, 02:06 AM	Hey, this genre isn't superheroic, it's heroic fantasy. :) Second, just because I don't like something doesn't mean I won't allow it as a DM. That's not my business to decide. Are you having fun playing the character? Good. Then I'm doing my job. We can continue this over IM....
Stigger 12-14-07, 02:16 AM	I again disagree...the world today is alot more brutal then in the past. Um... just no. You just hear about the brutality more today because of the media, while the history books we get fed by our education system glosses over a lot of the atrocity committed by various societies. Take a serious, long, hard look at medieval social history and tell me that the world hasn't improved immeasurably. Hells, take a serious look at life in this country in the 1900's and tell me things haven't improved immeasurably.
johnkretzer 12-14-07, 02:42 AM	Um... just no. You just hear about the brutality more today because of the media, while the history books we get fed by our education system glosses over a lot of the atrocity committed by various societies. Take a serious, long, hard look at medieval social history and tell me that the world hasn't improved immeasurably. Hells, take a serious look at life in this country in the 1900's and tell me things haven't improved immeasurably. Actualy I don't rely on school text for my history lessons...I love reading history...and I am fully aware of the atrocities commited though out history...as I am aware of the ones that happen now. So maybe it isn't worse...but better...maybe maybe not. If you wish to continue this I said we take this over PM.
Stigger 12-14-07, 03:18 AM	Not really, too depressing really, thinking about it. :)
johnkretzer 12-14-07, 03:41 AM	Not really, too depressing really, thinking about it. :) Yeah you are right...lets continue talking about a light atrocities like the New FR...:)
Stigger 12-14-07, 03:54 AM	Atrocity sounds about right... it could have been so much better. :(
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 11:52 AM	-I just finished a 30 page paper on America's response to genocide since World War II, so can I join in the atrocity speak?
Green Elven Vampire 12-14-07, 04:24 PM	"Americans" committed the greatest genocide of the past 1,000 years with the slaughter of the Native Americans. We championed a genocide that left native american population at about 15% of it's normal rate. Then we placed them into concentration camps that we sugar coated as "reservations".and brutally changed their religion to christianity in the name of the one jealous god and continued to <snip>
Green Elven Vampire 12-14-07, 04:26 PM	Back on topic... sooooo WoTc pulls off the deicide of several amazing pantheons in the name of 4ED. Retcon mania anyone?
Suin Bahhar 12-14-07, 04:33 PM	Wow. I totally agree the slaughter of native americans was atrocious. But they got wiped out by Europeans common diseases during that too. So the intention to kill them all was not really there I guess.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 04:49 PM	-Blah, blah, blah, Indians. That's all I heard. :rolleyes: -Genocide entails very specific criterion, most of which were not met by American Manifest Destiny expansion and the Indian Wars.
Green Elven Vampire 12-14-07, 04:54 PM	-Blah, blah, blah, Indians. That's all I heard. :rolleyes: -Genocide entails very specific criterion, most of which were not met by American Manifest Destiny expansion and the Indian Wars. Manifest destiny is a concept, not an excuse.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 05:02 PM	Manifest destiny is a concept, not an excuse. -Did you not just hear what I said? I wasn't defending anyone or anything, but the Indian Wars, and Manifest Destiny does not meet the criteria to be considered genocide. The definition of 'genocide' is very concise.
Stigger 12-14-07, 05:14 PM	Can we please avoid this arguement? Not really the place for it... ;)
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 05:28 PM	Can we please avoid this arguement? Not really the place for it... ;) -No. Go away. :P -There is no argument, anyway, as I have the power and certainty of fact behind me, so... -About that Seldarine...
Stigger 12-14-07, 05:31 PM	Since when has the certainty of fact, real or imagined, ever stopped an argument around here? :P So yeah... I'm in favor of the Seldarine myself.
msatran 12-14-07, 05:40 PM	Likewise. I'm not sure I can run 4e, it requires a labor of such insane love to get things the way that I want them that I'm just NOT going to be happy with it.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 05:52 PM	Since when has the certainty of fact, real or imagined, ever stopped an argument around here? :P -Good point. So yeah... I'm in favor of the Seldarine myself. -Ah. I, myself, am in the favor of the Seldarine. :)
ORC_Sinister 12-14-07, 06:31 PM	Return to the topic at hand, this is not the thread to discuss real life politics and topics.
Kenzuki 12-14-07, 09:52 PM	What if all the Gods were just aspects of Ao?
Karsus the Mad 12-14-07, 10:05 PM	What if all the Gods were just aspects of Ao? That's what I first thought when I came to the Realms. I'm not entirely sure of the validity, but years ago I was reading some "druid pagan alternative thingy" I bought in an airport store, and it talked about how all the gods are merely different aspects of "the supreme god". The book even referred to it as AO. Then when I became enlightened with the knowledge of the Realms:cloud9: , I read of this Ao, and instantly remembered that old book of mine. Ever since it's been a little nagging voice in the back of my head. Sort of like a wife nagging at you to do the dishes.
Kenzuki 12-14-07, 10:18 PM	I wonder what Ao does in his spare time....
Karsus the Mad 12-14-07, 10:36 PM	I wonder what Ao does in his spare time.... Plays golf.
MerrikCale 12-14-07, 11:17 PM	I wonder what Ao does in his spare time.... ponders the fact that his name would be the worst Wheel of Fortune answer ever
Lord Karsus 12-15-07, 12:52 AM	I'm not entirely sure of the validity, but years ago I was reading some "druid pagan alternative thingy" I bought in an airport store, and it talked about how all the gods are merely different aspects of "the supreme god". -Kaballah. ponders the fact that his name would be the worst Wheel of Fortune answer ever -Nah, that dubious honor would go to Monet St. Crux, a former member of Generation X, whose codename was simply 'M'.
Green Elven Vampire 12-15-07, 01:06 AM	Likewise. I'm not sure I can run 4e, it requires a labor of such insane love to get things the way that I want them that I'm just NOT going to be happy with it. I feel the same way Msatran. My gaming group has decided to stick with 3ED and 3.5ED and boycott 4ED in all its pathetic splendor.
msatran 12-15-07, 02:59 AM	Well, the problem is that there's no forwards compatibility, from what I understand. And I really don't want to tell anyone "I'm sorry. You're a warlock."
Lord Karsus 12-15-07, 03:10 AM	Well, the problem is that there's no forwards compatibility, from what I understand. -Correct. There is no streamlines 3e --> 4e translator, as of now. Some nerdy person might whip something up when 4e is released, who knows. But, as of now, "those who be" are simply recommending recreating your characters from scratch using the 4e ruleset, meaning that not everything is going to be 100% the same.
Kenzuki 12-15-07, 07:42 AM	I bet the 2nd editioners and 1st editioners said the same thing.....:)
msatran 12-15-07, 11:08 AM	Actually, the problems with converting 2.0 to 3.0-3.5 in my game were colossal. Some characters won big, some characters lost, and some people refused to convert their characters at all. It created massive continuity holes and things that I STILL haven't been able to fix, and I really don't want to go through that again. If you were a Wu Jen? In 3.0-3.5, you LOST, because your spell list was relatively puny compared to other 3.0-3.5 casters. If you were a Ranger? In 3.0 you LOST. In 3.5, you WON. So you can see how this might produce some problems. Am I unhappy? Oh, yeah.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-15-07, 06:04 PM	-Correct. There is no streamlines 3e --> 4e translator, as of now. Some nerdy person might whip something up when 4e is released, who knows. Agreed, we can always rely on nerds to help us out with this stuff.:)
Karsus the Mad 12-15-07, 07:15 PM	-Kaballah. No, that wasn't it. That was the gnome illusionist from BG2 that went psycho at the circus.
Suin Bahhar 12-15-07, 08:19 PM	I saw the conversion guide for Star Wars Saga Edition on the WizO site (http://www.wizards.com/starwars/downloads/SWRPG_Saga_Conversion.pdf). It seemed pretty easy to convert a character from d20 Star Wars to SWSE.
Lord Karsus 12-15-07, 11:01 PM	No, that wasn't it. That was the gnome illusionist from BG2 that went psycho at the circus. -No, but I'm just sayin' that what you were talking about is one of the basic premises in the Kaballah.
Cmarco 12-15-07, 11:20 PM	N/A
Karsus the Mad 12-15-07, 11:44 PM	-No, but I'm just sayin' that what you were talking about is one of the basic premises in the Kaballah. Really? I always knew dogmatic religion was strange, but you're playing with me. I can't believe an ancient, major religion teaches in it's holy book that a gnome illusionist going crazy in a circus from a 2001 video game is somehow a universal truth of the all-mighty.
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 12:01 AM	Really? I always knew dogmatic religion was strange, but you're playing with me. I can't believe an ancient, major religion teaches in it's holy book that a gnome illusionist going crazy in a circus from a 2001 video game is somehow a universal truth of the all-mighty. -If you read it and aren't very schooled on the topic (and, I, by no means are), that's about all you'll get from it. :)
Lord_Madrigan 12-16-07, 12:11 AM	4th Ed Realms http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u314/emjayR/facepalmbq8dj7.jpg
msatran 12-16-07, 03:06 AM	I love it.
Selvarin 12-16-07, 03:16 AM	Hmm, it's taken me this long to get off the beaten trail and see this thread. *looks* Where's the wake being held? Is there a mausoleum in the forest where we can drink and pour a 40 on the ground in rememberence of our deific elven homies?
Hanali-in-Love 12-16-07, 03:44 AM	4th Ed Realms http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u314/emjayR/facepalmbq8dj7.jpg That's precious!! That's just how I feel. Facepalm Grandiose!
Alediran 12-16-07, 09:59 AM	-If you read it and aren't very schooled on the topic (and, I, by no means are), that's about all you'll get from it. :) I'm actually studying Hermeticism so I got everything you said :D
msatran 12-16-07, 10:55 AM	Want to say a prayer for the Seldarine? While pouring yo 40 on the ground? Along With Apologies to Public Enemy, I humbly present By The Time I Get To Gauntylgrym I'm counting down to the Spellplague, Burning Looking for the Seldarine I'm waiting to mount an Expedition To get to Gauntylgrym But all my money got spent Orb, Staff and Wand are all Bent Neither deity is mine Not Corellon or those guys of a Triadic Bent Twenty Thousand Angry Elvish Clerics in a corner Weeping and a crying Cause they can't cast Create Water! Population is none, under Amaunator's sun With Chris Perkins crushing our world under his thumb! Staring hard at Candlekeep thinking How much this really reeks We used to be diverse now we're homogenous freaks! Level Twenty Three Used to be Epic, you see What's a D+D Game When the whole game's faceless? Why have Shieldmeet as a holiday? **** us cause they wanna So what if I celebrate it worshipping Solonor or Shialla? I'm not drinking Elminster's Best I'll stick with my Elverquisst Until 4th Edition is canned Call me the Archerman Lookin, Lookin for the Seldarine But they ain't doin keen Someone decided they were trouble So they put them up on your shelf, They were too confusing for an elf! I'll get straight to the point With my arrows out of joint While I'm chanting this song Yeah they think they're being fair to the masses out there Cos they drank too much beer To remember yesteryear! The good ol' days Of the Forgotten Realms are dying For you and me, and Helm's missing single eyin' They said what they need is a plot seed Straight from the past They thought they'd have a spellplague And kick old Mystra's a** But understand that making that all she wrote For the Goddess of the Stars will NEVER get my vote! Wiping out Mystra, boy, she'll be ****** at ya! I'm singing bout my Chosen But Wiz-o's don't like it When I decide to mike it! Well, I'm waiting for the date For the theme demands respect Because Mystra is still great until 2008! One Mission: To stop us From getting the shim By the time I get to Gauntylgrym! I'm not going to do the last verse.
Alediran 12-16-07, 11:22 AM	Send me the last verse on PM.
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 12:51 PM	-Is msatran ever going to release a compilation album, with all of his famous songs? :)
msatran 12-16-07, 01:40 PM	Actually, Alediran, I didn't write the last verse because it's so rhythmically difficult just to get that far. The point was made. :) If there is a big demand for it, I will finish it. And if someone wishes to compile them, I would be honored.
Selvarin 12-16-07, 02:54 PM	Hmm, I'd suggest another Public Enemy song but I'd be in real trouble if I named it.
msatran 12-16-07, 03:38 PM	You mean... Nineteen Eighty Five, Another Summer, Sound of Pages from the Mages, Brother....? :) That one? Yeah, I could do that one, too. But I think I'd get sitebanned for it. Fight the Power!
Selvarin 12-16-07, 04:15 PM	Or the one that had law enforcement up in arms.
Stigger 12-16-07, 04:23 PM	Hmmmm... haven't thought of Public Enemy in 15+ years. Brings back some odd memories.
msatran 12-16-07, 07:01 PM	THey're performing on Wednesday at the Fillmore in NYC. I want to go, but I'm running a game. If someone opts out, and the game can't run, I"ll probably go.
faellamos 12-18-07, 04:26 AM	this may have been mentioned already (i got here late, and wasnt bothered to read all the posts) but this whole "sehanine and selune are the same goddess" thing seems to be an attempt to move to the eberron way of things with all races worshipping one pantheon (more or less). this works in the eberron pantheon coz the races r all integrated and of course its been that way from the start, but doing it in FR is SUCH a stupid move.
Green Elven Vampire 12-20-07, 06:55 PM	this may have been mentioned already (i got here late, and wasnt bothered to read all the posts) but this whole "sehanine and selune are the same goddess" thing seems to be an attempt to move to the eberron way of things with all races worshipping one pantheon (more or less). this works in the eberron pantheon coz the races r all integrated and of course its been that way from the start, but doing it in FR is SUCH a stupid move. It's not just Sehanine, but the entire elven pantheon as well as the other demi-human deities.
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 09:06 PM	It's not just Sehanine, but the entire elven pantheon as well as the other demi-human deities. -I don't think they are going to do this to every single Demihuman deity. It's much easier to simply let some of them be.
Selvarin 12-20-07, 09:11 PM	Those they don't replace with a human Faerunian deity will be reduced to a mythological servant/demipower. There is no room for a separate pantheon within the Realms.
Kenzuki 12-20-07, 09:14 PM	What about the Mulhorand, Kara-Tur, Maztica, etc pantheons? Would this mean that a god can only have one portfolio period or something?
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 09:22 PM	Those they don't replace with a human Faerunian deity will be reduced to a mythological servant/demipower. There is no room for a separate pantheon within the Realms. -Yes, having so many deities is just so darn confusing. How did the setting survive in such a state for over twenty years? Woe is me. What about the Mulhorand, Kara-Tur, Maztica, etc pantheons? Would this mean that a god can only have one portfolio period or something? -Good question. Odds are, many deities from different pantheons that have the same portfolios will be "taken care of" in one of two ways. Either they say that the two deities are the same deity (ie, Sehanine Moonbow and Selūne- regardless if that makes sense or not), or they change the portfolio of someone, so it's a similar, but not exactly the same portfolio (ie, Lathander gets Dawn, and Horus gets Sun)
Selvarin 12-20-07, 09:35 PM	Just stating the obvious, that WotC have the chainsaws out and they're clearcutting the pantheons to avoid 'confusing' newer potential gamers.
msatran 12-21-07, 12:26 AM	Last words of the Red Knight: "I'm sorry, Red Knight priestess. I am just a lump of tofu that is a proxy for Tempus. I really look like this...MWOZZZ.." Tempus appears in a dress and a battle bikini. "Worship me now..." Red Knight Priestess: Can I retrain for "Servant of the Fallen?" You've destroyed my life!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-21-07, 10:51 AM	I have to admit, this "tofu" analogy is actually kind of funny. :rofl:
SmartPaladin 12-21-07, 06:27 PM	It's not just Sehanine, but the entire elven pantheon as well as the other demi-human deities. Wait, does that mean in 4.0 Shevarash and Hoar are going to be one in the same? That'd be both cool, and really awkward.
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 06:58 PM	Wait, does that mean in 4.0 Shevarash and Hoar are going to be one in the same? That'd be both cool, and really awkward. -Perhaps. It's likely, though the Shevarash will just be a minor demigod, and not the aspect of another deity. I mean, we already know his origins. It's not a case of, "Shevarash always was". We know where Shevarash was from, when the Dark Court Slaughter was, when Shevarash died, and so on.
johnkretzer 12-21-07, 07:13 PM	-Perhaps. It's likely, though the Shevarash will just be a minor demigod, and not the aspect of another deity. I mean, we already know his origins. It's not a case of, "Shevarash always was". We know where Shevarash was from, when the Dark Court Slaughter was, when Shevarash died, and so on. You only think you know that, but you would be wrong muhahahahaha (oh wait there is a smilie for that) :evillaugh
Stigger 12-21-07, 07:35 PM	Because Shevarash was just an avatar of Hoar at the time no doubt... wouldn't put it past them really.
The_Shaman 12-21-07, 08:02 PM	Well, Shevarash, the Red Knight etc I can see being saints/champions/etc of another deity. That still leaves a lot of other deities to account for, though. Vergadain, Siamorphe, Nobanion, and many others I just don't see subsumed like that.
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 08:26 PM	Because Shevarash was just an avatar of Hoar at the time no doubt... wouldn't put it past them really. -But, at the time, being an Untheric deity, Hoar was confined to his "god-king" manifestation, like the rest of the Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons. It's easier to just leve Sharvarash be, and "demote" him in power.
Stigger 12-22-07, 11:22 AM	Well, see, he was running around under an alias or something... besides, haven't you figured out by now that previous lore is free to be ignored, modified, and tampered with as the developers/designers see fit? :P
johnkretzer 12-22-07, 12:55 PM	-But, at the time, being an Untheric deity, Hoar was confined to his "god-king" manifestation, like the rest of the Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons. It's easier to just leve Sharvarash be, and "demote" him in power. Didn't you see my quote above? You only think you know that, but you would be wrong muhahahahaha (oh wait there is a smilie for that) :evillaugh You got to understand they will do anything to force these change though.
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 02:25 PM	Didn't you see my quote above? You got to understand they will do anything to force these change though. -I know, I know. I'm just saying, it's that much less work and hassle for them to just leave Shevarash as is, or to "demote" him, which is the most likely scenario.
johnkretzer 12-22-07, 02:37 PM	-I know, I know. I'm just saying, it's that much less work and hassle for them to just leave Shevarash as is, or to "demote" him, which is the most likely scenario. Sure I agree...but in al honesty I can't understand the reasons behind 90% of the changes...
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 02:50 PM	-I don't either, but if there's any designers reading, you can save yourself time, effort and the fanbase complaining if you leave him, and others, as is, or simply "demote" them.
Purple Dragon Knight 12-23-07, 12:04 AM	Meurs, quatričme édition, meurs!!
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:11 AM	-Something, 4th edition, something... -Don't speak French (I'm guessing).
Selvarin 12-23-07, 12:53 AM	No no no....Meurs sounds too much like something else... :D
sfdragon 12-23-07, 02:22 AM	3.5 will live to meurs another day. its DIE
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 02:47 AM	-I feel so left out of the loop, and I don't like it...:(
johnkretzer 12-23-07, 04:47 AM	-I feel so left out of the loop, and I don't like it...:( Yeah can't people just speak English anymore....:(
sfdragon 12-23-07, 04:54 AM	I went and found an online translator. cant speak it either. and yes i know those things are not all that accurate either
Rauric 12-23-07, 11:39 AM	You know, I remember reading in one article that D&D isn't Ed Greenwood's game, or Gary Gygax's game, or Keith Baker's game: it's your game. When 4E comes, it will be just a set of mechanics, like d20 is now and THAC0 was 15 years ago. The mechanics, by itself, changes little. Essentially, the main problem the supposed new edition will bring for our Realms games is that there will be less support for them as some of the NPCs or groups we use will not be statted. This is a problem, but it's different than saying that 4th edition will be incompatible with the current feel of the Realms. Personally, I'm more interested in there being support for the current state of the realms - i.e. rules on the deities/groups/characters as they are, not as the scriptwriters think they ought to be. If the new edition has good rules on clerics, then I can use those for my cleric of Mystra - who, by the way, only dies if your campaigns have her die. Exactly.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 11:49 AM	-That's how most people feel. 4e, and 4e Forgotten Realms are two seperate things. 4e has some ideas- some good, some bad- and is simply a ruleset. 4e Forgotten Realms is the "juicy stuff". -Note, though, that many people don't play D&D, and like the Realms for what it is- an interesting, intriguing setting. For people like this, the seemingly random and massive changes to the realms ("Mystra must die!", "nuking" NPC, retcons, etc.) hit much closer to home, as the "metaplot", or whatever you want to call it, of the Realms is "all we have".
Fire_Wraith 12-25-07, 02:07 PM	The Realms is two things - it is both a game setting, and a storybook world where novels/tales/etc are set. This complicates things a bit, in terms of the changes they want to make. Some changes are driven by considerations of the game setting, while others are driven by the storybook half. This ultimately causes a lot of conflict, because what is good for one half isn't necessarily good for the other. Were it purely a game setting, I might not consider some of the proposed changes to be as onerous as I do. Likewise, were it simply a storybook setting, the designers would not necessarily feel compelled to radically alter plot lines and kill characters, et cetera.
Green Elven Vampire 12-26-07, 02:31 PM	What is everyones speculations towards what they will do with Erevan Ilesere? Keep in mind the novel featuring Fox-at-Twilight and subsequent short story.
Selvarin 12-26-07, 02:40 PM	Don't recall the story, alas. As for Erevan, he was pretty fond of pixies, sprites, etc., so he could survive in a more fey form. But not as an elven deity per se. 80% chance fey servitor 20% something higher up
AskaniPsion 12-26-07, 02:48 PM	I didn't read those stories but I have a feeling he will be a demi-power over good fey.
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 03:19 PM	I didn't read those stories but I have a feeling he will be a demi-power over good fey. -Probably. So much for the Seldarine...:rolleyes:
The_Shaman 12-26-07, 06:22 PM	Don't recall the story, alas. As for Erevan, he was pretty fond of pixies, sprites, etc., so he could survive in a more fey form. But not as an elven deity per se. I suppose it will depend on the relationship between elves proper and fey... it's been a terra incognita for me for a while. Still, Erevan as you say was always close to some fey; wasn't one of his appelations "The Fey Jester" or some such? Which brings me to another point... If the fey are going to be featured more strongly in 4E, would the two courts be involved? I always thought the Seelie a bit too, well, rigid for someone like Erevan, but iirc he's supposed to be with them. I definitely don't see what used to be an elven deity in the Unseelie court.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 01:35 AM	Still, Erevan as you say was always close to some fey; wasn't one of his appelations "The Fey Jester" or some such? -Yes. His nicknames include: The Trickster The Chameleon The Green Changeling The Evershifting Shapechanger The Fey Jester The Jack of the Seelie Court
Selvarin 12-27-07, 02:20 AM	We'll be lucky if they merge Erevan and Brandobaris and have the result as court jester for the eladrin, considering all the chainsawing going on. Or a furry-footed gnome trickster type, known to both groups under a different name.
Elbereth_Silverleaf 12-30-07, 12:32 AM	Nope the Seldarine always were, are and will be. No matter what money-grubbing marketing schemes the bean counters of Hasbro and their hatchetmen (ie. marketing and design team of dubious talent and even less scruples) concoct from their noxious witches brew of hackneyed retcons.
Lord Karsus 12-30-07, 07:38 AM	Nope the Seldarine always were, are and will be. No matter what money-grubbing marketing schemes the bean counters of Hasbro and their hatchetmen (ie. marketing and design team of dubious talent and even less scruples) concoct from their noxious witches brew of hackneyed retcons. -In our games, of course. But, there will be thousands of new people who aren't even going to know what the proper Seldarine is. Think about that...:(
Elbereth_Silverleaf 12-30-07, 01:53 PM	Unfortunately Karsus, I think you may be right. The best way to combat this, however is to ALWAYS refer to our characters as Sun, Moon, Wood, Wild and Star elves when discussing them in the 4ed forums, period. Kinda off topic, but the inclusion of tieflings as a major race with warlocks being their base class and the elimination of Gnomes is sad indicater of the effect of the existence of more "twitch gamers" who want characters who can blast everything around them with the minimal need for roleplaying and thinking your way out of predicaments. There is an ENTIRE island nation run by Gnomes devoted to Gond, did they suddenly get swallowed up by the sea or are they all now "warforged" in yet another abysmal retcon? One persons religion is anothers myth, think about it.
Lord Karsus 12-30-07, 02:10 PM	Unfortunately Karsus, I think you may be right. The best way to combat this, however is to ALWAYS refer to our characters as Sun, Moon, Wood, Wild and Star elves when discussing them in the 4ed forums, period. -Well, technically, they will continue to be like that in the 4e Realms. They will still have the monkiers 'Sun Elves', 'Moon Elves', and so on. However, the stats for Sun/Moon/Star Elves will be those of 4e Eladrin-Elves. Wood Elves will have the stats of 4e Elves. Kinda off topic, but the inclusion of tieflings as a major race with warlocks being their base class and the elimination of Gnomes is sad indicater of the effect of the existence of more "twitch gamers" who want characters who can blast everything around them with the minimal need for roleplaying and thinking your way out of predicaments. -I agree, to a degree. Though, the ability to 'blast' more often doesn't necessarily decrease the amount of theoretical roleplaying going on. I mean, you can be able to blast a lot, and be a good roleplayer at the same time. However, I fear that what you say is probably the more likely case- instead of trying to talk their way out of/through sometime, many new players will simply blast their way out of/through problems. There is an ENTIRE island nation run by Gnomes devoted to Gond, did they suddenly get swallowed up by the sea or are they all now "warforged" in yet another abysmal retcon? -Gnomes, actually, are in the minority in Lantan, even if they are very prominent there.
Elbereth_Silverleaf 12-30-07, 02:35 PM	I stand corrected on the Lantanese issue. I was kinda fired up by my train of thinking.:D
Selvarin 12-30-07, 04:25 PM	Well there was that one island listed in The Horde boxed set that was populated by gnomes, many devoted to Gond, and a struggle between two factions. (See "The Great Spire" entry.)
GreenKnight 12-30-07, 04:44 PM	There is an ENTIRE island nation run by Gnomes devoted to Gond, did they suddenly get swallowed up by the sea or are they all now "warforged" in yet another abysmal retcon? Gnomes are still around. They'll just be in the Monster Manual, instead. They've said that several races in the Monster Manual will have write-ups as player character races, so odds are that Gnomes will be one of those.
AskaniPsion 12-30-07, 04:46 PM	Gnomes are still around. They'll just be in the Monster Manual, instead. They've said that several races in the Monster Manual will have write-ups as player character races, so odds are that Gnomes will be one of those. At least gnome players will only have to wait 2 months for the gnome stats, while us Psionic lovers might have to wait a whole YEAR for Psionic rules. :weep:
GreenKnight 12-30-07, 04:49 PM	At least gnome players will only have to wait 2 months for the gnome stats, while us Psionic lovers might have to wait a whole YEAR for Psionic rules. :weep: The Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual all come out on June 6th. There won't be any waiting. As for psionics, yeah, that sucks. But it's pretty much par for the course.
AskaniPsion 12-30-07, 04:53 PM	The Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual all come out on June 6th. There won't be any waiting. As for psionics, yeah, that sucks. But it's pretty much par for the course. well then gnome fans have nothing to complain about :D Us Drow fans got to wait for the FR book to even play drow. At least Warlock made the PHB :D Psions are my favorite class so it is going to be a loooooooooooooooooooooong wait. :(
GreenKnight 12-30-07, 05:03 PM	With any luck, they'll be put into the PHB2, rather then getting put into a separate psionics ghetto. I've always been a fan of psionics, so I'm looking forward to seeing the 4E version of psionics.
Suin Bahhar 12-30-07, 06:33 PM	I dont like the hint they are giving psions exclusivety to mind control effects. The classical enchantress role will get smudged out of existance that way. I guess it will make psionics more distinct but I always felt the two arts were pretty easily recognized.
GoldDragon 12-30-07, 07:08 PM	-That's how most people feel. 4e, and 4e Forgotten Realms are two seperate things. 4e has some ideas- some good, some bad- and is simply a ruleset. 4e Forgotten Realms is the "juicy stuff". -Note, though, that many people don't play D&D, and like the Realms for what it is- an interesting, intriguing setting. For people like this, the seemingly random and massive changes to the realms ("Mystra must die!", "nuking" NPC, retcons, etc.) hit much closer to home, as the "metaplot", or whatever you want to call it, of the Realms is "all we have". Never played pen and Paper D&D bnut I do collect the Gamebooks and Resources with a Bulk of the collection being Forgotten Realms stuff. I do Play D&D on the Computer which included most of the SSi Goldbox Series, Baulder's Gate Series, and more recently Neverwinter Nights...again with the heavy emphasis on playing Modules in the Forgotten Realms. I never look at the "E=mc2" thinges at the bottom of the screen in in Neverwinter Nights (guessing P&P people would know what all those numbers and text poping up are) and all I really care about is that if I point a Wand of Magic Missles at a Monster that the thing works (less the chance of misfire or magic resistance of course) I belive the Goldbox Series was 2nd eddition and So was Baulder's Gate? and Neverwinter Nights is 3rd eddition. Can't tell the difference as when my PC swings a Halbard at a beastie it still dies just the same...lol As far as "Kosher Stuff", because of the Cliff notes in Resources like the Atlas of the FOrgotten realms, and the other Resources that brought Forgotten Realms from 1st eddition to 2nd edittion to 2.5 and then 3.0/3.5 I really can see what was lost and what was gained over the years, but don't see 4e being something anymore "catacysmic" then Bards no longer being a "meshed class" or Barbarians no longer being able to Hit as a HIt Die Monster of it's level with weapons, or,closer to my Winching, Knights(Cavaliers) just being "mere fighters" or anyone wanting such a title instead of being a Class with it's own powers and benifits. (of course people are buitching and moaning about Assasins not being an offical Class anymore after almost all of them Croaked during the Times of Trouble) It's like that Amusing commercial on T.V. right now with Mr. T playing World of Warcradft and insisting that he is a "Elf Mohawk" and the director keep on telling him that a "Mohawk" isn't a official class and Mr. T saying "Don't you tell me how to play my own game"....lol So everytime I load D&D ame to play I am always anywhere 20 years before to 20 years after the Time of Troubles. If they ever develop a game usuing 4 eddition I would consider checking it out. Oh, and in the case of games requiring Diety affiliation I never ever used any of the FR gods as most of my PCs are "Plane Hoppers" so I always type in something like "Helm of Dragonstar" (a "god" PC at 140th level Knight by the time I quit playing the Krynn series over and over to see when the level up would stop...lol) and my "pantheon" of retired PC adventurers for the PC do include a 66th level Mage and 43 level Bard and such which I jokingly named "The Untouchables" (especially with the magic Items they collected over the games which included a whole buch of potions of youth...may as well be no different then the Egyptian "gods" or Norse "gods" which are just really powerful mortals which the magic and means to be effectively "immortal") Point on the PC game godling babble? Doesn't really matter what god your PC worships or which one is available as FR history is showing gods die and are made all the time.....and Heros just take up space if they aren't doing anything Useful so losing the 7 sisters and the the godlings aren't necessarily bad...especially since the 2 main reasons why there is war and suffering is because of 1) Religious differences and 2) people with too much power abusing it...lol
Spelldancer 12-30-07, 07:23 PM	Alright.. I am bit confused now. Sehanine has a big role now in the Standard Gods, it seems. Though am I wrong to say that someone eluded that Selune was Sehanine?
MerrikCale 12-30-07, 09:39 PM	Alright.. I am bit confused now. Sehanine has a big role now in the Standard Gods, it seems. Though am I wrong to say that someone eluded that Selune was Sehanine? or perhaps Sehanine is Selune
Lord Karsus 12-30-07, 11:22 PM	-Gold Dragon, no offense, but what was the point of that big, long spiel? Alright.. I am bit confused now. Sehanine has a big role now in the Standard Gods, it seems. Though am I wrong to say that someone eluded that Selune was Sehanine? -According to Richard Baker, 4e is going to 'streamline' the pantheons of the Realms, making it easier for newer players. In effect, they are going to be taking the 150 deities that exist around the entire planet, and will be mushing them into one pantheon with 20-30 deities. Some deities are going to be arbitrarily demoted in status, and will become "saints" of stronger deities, while others will be merged with existing deities. Selūne and Sehanine Moonbow are slated to be merged into one entity in 4e. or perhaps Sehanine is Selune -Stop trying to confuse her.
Stigger 12-31-07, 01:54 AM	The point of his post is in the last paragraph... very roundabout, but it comes to a close at the end.
Elbereth_Silverleaf 12-31-07, 03:38 AM	Lord Karsus I understand completely what they are doing regarding the "streamlining" of the available deities. I completely disagree that it is necessary. What this does to me though is to eradicate and destroy a lot of the flavor that makes the Realms such a unique and lovable campaign setting. Take the real world of 3-4 thousand years ago for example. There were (and perhaps still are) literally thousands of gods, nature spirits, ancestral spirits, demigods, ascended hero-gods, household gods etc. all being worshiped, honored or placated in one form or another. ... So what if my Judaic Yahweh, Roman Jupiter, Greek Zeus and Teutonic Thor are all gods of high places, thunder, lightning and deific father figures? They all coexisted fairly peacefully for hundreds to thousands of years, with no problems as long as you respected the other persons right to follow her/his own conscience. ....
Green Elven Vampire 12-31-07, 03:54 AM	Why do they even need to put out a PHB2? I'll tell you why.... cause all they want is your money.
Stigger 12-31-07, 04:00 AM	That's pretty much what any for-profit company wants when it comes down to it... the rub for WotC comes in as to whether they put out a quality product or not to actually get that money of yours. If the product is good, they get the money, if its bad, they don't. Its that simple really, and its up to us to decide if we want to give that money to them or not... and if not, they either come up with something better, or they go out of business. Hence, why I think voting with your dollar is a more effective way of showing them what you think of their efforts when it really comes down to it. 4e as a ruleset looks appealing to me, but 4e Realms is a travesty in my opinion, so I'll vote with my dollar and see what happens. Really, that's the only thing we can actually do at this point.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 04:41 AM	Lord Karsus I understand completely what they are doing regarding the "streamlining" of the available deities. I completely disagree that it is necessary. -From your words to my mouth.
Selvarin 12-31-07, 04:43 AM	<snip> Kinda off topic, but the inclusion of tieflings as a major race with warlocks being their base class and the elimination of Gnomes is sad indicater of the effect of the existence of more "twitch gamers" who want characters who can blast everything around them with the minimal need for roleplaying and thinking your way out of predicaments. WotC is making the Forgotten Realms as close to 'default' as they can, but for the life of me I don't see tieflings as a 'regular' FR race. Giving them more prominence in the game and the FR setting makes me think more and more they should hang a World of Warcraft logo on top. The Realms was already rife with extra-planar contact, don't need more of it now. Oh heck, folks. In another 5-7 years there will be a new edition saying "The Seldarine are back--and with a vengeance!"...without a mea culpa.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 04:45 AM	Oh heck, folks. In another 5-7 years there will be a new edition saying "The Seldarine are back--and with a vengeance!"...without a mea culpa. -Corellon Larethian: Deity fo Elves, Magic, and Whoopass! -Sehanine Moonbow: Deity of Mysticism, the Moon, and Kickass!
sfdragon 12-31-07, 04:51 AM	it was the FEy Jester, he did it as a joke
companion_cube 12-31-07, 06:45 AM	What about the Mulhorand, Kara-Tur, Maztica, etc pantheons? Would this mean that a god can only have one portfolio period or something? well realistically if the they can kill the elven dieties off with that little thought, its likely mr baker doesnt even know what mulhorand, kara-tur, maztica, etc even are so yeah those dudes be dead
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-31-07, 11:02 AM	Why do they even need to put out a PHB2? I'll tell you why.... cause all they want is your money. Like Stigger said, that's what any business wants, and that's been the case from day 1. It's no big secret.
Karsus the Mad 12-31-07, 11:05 AM	Like Stigger said, that's what any business wants, and that's been the case from day 1. It's no big secret. Yeah, but it seems it's getting easier and easier to see beyond the facade of corporate concern for the consumer. Either that, or we're old dogs that can't learn their new tricks.
GreenKnight 12-31-07, 11:39 AM	Why do they even need to put out a PHB2? I'll tell you why.... cause all they want is your money. If you don't want it then dont buy it. There's plenty of good reasons why they'd split the books up, though. For one, putting everything into one book would make it pretty big and expensive. Phone book sized books are great, but they're not the kinds of books I'd like to drag with me from game to game. Second, if they were to pack it all into the first PHB, then that's even more stuff they'd have to playtest. Meaning less playtesting for everything all around, which would result in a greater chance of more things being broken. Splitting things up gives them time to properly playtest everything before publication. But really, what's the big deal, here? A company which makes money off of books putting out books in order to make money? Is that really a surprise, or even a bad thing? Would you prefer that they just publish the three core books and then declare bankruptcy, and never publish anything else, again? And remember, just because they publish them, it doesn't mean you gotta buy them. It's not as if it's a new thing, though. Complete Warrior, Complete Arcane, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Defenders of the Faith, Song and Silence, Tome and Blood, The Complete Book of Elves, The Complete Book of Dwarves, The Complete Paladin's Handbook, The Complete Fighter's Handbook, etc. All of that was to make money. Doesn't mean a lot of that wasn't interesting stuff, though.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 12:16 PM	For one, putting everything into one book would make it pretty big and expensive. Phone book sized books are great, but they're not the kinds of books I'd like to drag with me from game to game. -Actually, one big book would weigh less. There's be fewer "acknowledgements/credits" pages, and you'd save the ounces that the hard covers of multiple books, as opposed to one book, creates.
GreenKnight 12-31-07, 12:19 PM	-Actually, one big book would weigh less. There's be fewer "acknowledgements/credits" pages, and you'd save the ounces that the hard covers of multiple books, as opposed to one book, creates. Depends on how many books you actually carry. I sure as hell don't carry every Complete X book with me everywhere I go.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 12:25 PM	Depends on how many books you actually carry. I sure as hell don't carry every Complete X book with me everywhere I go. -Well, I'm just saying, if you had everything...You know.
Stigger 12-31-07, 01:31 PM	I can't lift even half of my FR stuff for various editions without herniating myself... probably better that we always play at my place I guess. :D
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 01:49 PM	I can't lift even half of my FR stuff for various editions without herniating myself... probably better that we always play at my place I guess. :D -I have to lug all my books around, when I play D&D. I figure, I'm exercising, so I'm killing two birds with one stone.
GreenKnight 12-31-07, 02:29 PM	I can't lift even half of my FR stuff for various editions without herniating myself... probably better that we always play at my place I guess. :D Yeah, I'm supposed to bring the miniatures to a game this weekend, and after packing almost every D&D Miniature I got, all I could think was "God damn it. I really wish we were playing here". Seriously, this Amazon Kindle (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FI73MA/ref=gw_ftr_str_kdp?pf_rd_p=343120901&pf_rd_s=left-nav-2&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=507846&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0SV1EVD65HW63Z4P2D60) thing is starting to look really good to me. If it can read PDF's right, then I may end up buying it and taking that and only that with me to any games I go. The only question is, is it worth $400 to me to never have to lug another game book anywhere ever again?
XHereticX 01-01-08, 08:11 PM	wow.....thanks for just ruining my day.:(
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 08:31 PM	-Somebody had to break it to you. :(
Spelldancer 01-02-08, 07:16 AM	-Gold Dragon, no offense, but what was the point of that big, long spiel? -According to Richard Baker, 4e is going to 'streamline' the pantheons of the Realms, making it easier for newer players. In effect, they are going to be taking the 150 deities that exist around the entire planet, and will be mushing them into one pantheon with 20-30 deities. Some deities are going to be arbitrarily demoted in status, and will become "saints" of stronger deities, while others will be merged with existing deities. Selūne and Sehanine Moonbow are slated to be merged into one entity in 4e. -Stop trying to confuse her. Well that sort of answers it. If Selūne is then just an aspect of Sehanine, does that make Shar an aspect of Lolth/Lloth (I can never remember which way FR spells it :P) It just has me .. confused a bit now that is all. All the history between Sehanine and Lloth is that just going to be merged with the different history between Selune and Shar?
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 07:50 AM	If Selūne is then just an aspect of Sehanine, does that make Shar an aspect of Lolth/Lloth (I can never remember which way FR spells it :P) It just has me .. confused a bit now that is all. All the history between Sehanine and Lloth is that just going to be merged with the different history between Selune and Shar? -That's the biggest gripe. By merging all of these deities, we have to be told which origins are true. And, depending on it all, it nullifies many fundamental truths we've been told about these various deities, and many myths now have no creedence whatsoever.
Stigger 01-02-08, 07:52 AM	But its cool and sick, so its okay is the part LK left out... :D *ducks and runs*
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 07:59 AM	-It makes me sick...:rolleyes:
XHereticX 01-02-08, 08:29 AM	-That's the biggest gripe. By merging all of these deities, we have to be told which origins are true. And, depending on it all, it nullifies many fundamental truths we've been told about these various deities, and many myths now have no creedence whatsoever. Well, there is the belief that different myths are just diverse cultural interpretations of the same common truth so in thay light it seems logical. I'm sure they will come up with some ludicrous explanation in the 4e CS.
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 08:32 AM	-Well, there are certain things you can't get around with that. For example, Sehanine Moonbow is an interloper deity. She was 'born'/created somewhere else, and then came to Realmspace. That much is canon fact. Having her suddenly always be a part of Selūne, who was possibly birthed after Sehanine Moonbow, messes things up in all sorts of ways.
XHereticX 01-02-08, 08:51 AM	-Well, there are certain things you can't get around with that. For example, Sehanine Moonbow is an interloper deity. She was 'born'/created somewhere else, and then came to Realmspace. That much is canon fact. Having her suddenly always be a part of Selūne, who was possibly birthed after Sehanine Moonbow, messes things up in all sorts of ways. For some reason I think WoTC is now separating FR from the greater context for good and will now probably say something like " The Seldarine were weakened from their exodus and ended up being absorbed by the native deities, who continued to masquerede as them for thousands of years" It dosen't necessarily destroy the old lore or the Seldarine's background, its just that now its not Sehanine, Hanali, Ereven, and Aerie doing all of these things, but various aspects of Selune instead.
BrennonGoldeye 01-02-08, 10:36 AM	I hate to be the harbinger of terrible news, but a recent post by Rich Baker has confirmed that besides Corellon Larethian, The Seldarine are no more in 4ED forgotten realms. Sehanine Moonbow is going to be the elven name for the Faerunian goddess Selune. He goes on to say that most other deities of The Seldarine will also just be elven names of various human Faerunian gods and goddesses. After reading this ludicrous statement I almost vomited in my mouth. So basically 30,000 years of elven history has been erased in the blink of an eye. The deific events in Evermeet: Island of Elves are just going to be ignored, and all the wonderful, years and years of elven history apparently never happened I suppose. So all your Clerics and rangers of Solonor, Sehanine, Hanali, Rillifane, Erevan Ilesere, Labelas, Deep Sashelas and the other members of the elven pantheon are just going to have to worship the human faerunian gods. WoTc has just hammered the last nail in the 4ED coffin for many, many consumer fans. Die $ED, DIE!! Oh my. Well, I say just don't buy a single piece of new lore. Don't bring up the 4th in any way. Just ignore the moneygrubbers and continue on with what we already have. If you don't buy it, they will succumb. Just :twocents: from an old hack. :)
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 10:38 AM	Oh my. Well, I say just don't buy a single piece of new lore. Don't bring up the 4th in any way. Just ignore the moneygrubbers and continue on with what we already have. If you don't buy it, they will succumb. Just :twocents: from an old hack. :) -You know, I was waxing poetic about you in another thread. -The Hands of Karsus seem to all be returning to the boards, just around the same time 4e is going to be released? Does this mean Karsus will be heralded in as a savior for 4e Forgotten Realms? Stay tuned...
XHereticX 01-02-08, 10:42 AM	-You know, I was waxing poetic about you in another thread. -The Hands of Karsus seem to all be returning to the boards, just around the same time 4e is going to be released? Does this mean Karsus will be heralded in as a savior for 4e Forgotten Realms? Stay tuned... "Preparing for massive heavy magic ritual that will initiate at the dawn of 4e" :emp: :r: :emp: :r:
BrennonGoldeye 01-02-08, 10:54 AM	We return at the subconscious behest of our Liege. :cip:;) :cip: Besides, my Lady's plans require me to return to the plane of my birth. :emp:
Stigger 01-02-08, 05:23 PM	Hey Brennon, been forever since I last saw you. Welcome Back. :D
msatran 01-03-08, 11:01 AM	I hate the fact that it treats us all like mentally impaired children in special education classes, and basically tells us "Oh, not only is everything you know wrong, but all of your high level PC's never made a roll in their lives to know what religion is what and who is where in the cosmos. That little thing called a divine relationship with your deity? It really doesn't exist. And Ao WARNED THE GODS during the time of troubles to PLAY FAIR WITH THEIR FOLLOWERS! God forbid someone should actually READ THE LORE before making a new sourcebook. 1) Cyric sucks, Wizards. I would rather have a hundred new members of the Duergar Pantheon than one of him, even though the Moradinsamman thing makes sense and the Cyric thing makes about as much sense as turkeys building a rocket and flying to the moon! 2) Killing off the Seldarine DESTROYS THE HISTORY OF THE ELVES! THE CROWN WARS CANNOT FUNCTION...AT ALL! Do you mean to tell me that over the course of 12,000 years, not a single Elf High Mage was capable of discovering that Senahine was Selune? And if he did, what happened to him? That's a sinister plot that leads to a single angry undead, and doesn't do much for the game world. 3) It's not just the Seldarine, it's everything about being told that we suck as players. I really don't appreciate, because I happen to like clerics, and especially since Cleric is one of my favorite classes in the game, being told that I'm a powergamer or a healer monkey. This is like "You're an a**hole if you don't switch to 4th edition, or believe as we do." Clerics become STUPID in the new edition anyway, because HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO HAVE ANY RESPECT FOR MY DEITY IF AT LEVEL 30, I CAN BEAT HIM UP?
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 11:22 AM	-It's not that all of that stuff, in and of itself, it totally and utterly horrible. It's partially the way that it was all pulled off. If we were given a reasonable explanation as to the hows/whys/whens/etc of Sehanine Moonbow/Selūne merging with Selūne/Sehanine Moonbow, I'd have misgivings about it, but I'd live with it.
Fire_Wraith 01-03-08, 01:43 PM	It also screws with a number of other concepts. So if Sehanine is really Selune, and (hypothetically) Hanali is Sune, while Aerdrie is... I dunno, Shaundakul? What happens to my cleric of Angharradh? :P Are all of those three deities really a tripartite, too? If not, is that whole three in one bit just getting tossed out the window? And yes... I'd really have less objection (I'd still have some, but significantly less) if this all was explained well/made more sense to me in terms of the setting, rather than leaving me feeling like it was all a ham-handed attempt to force a square peg through the round hole represented by the Realms.
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 01:57 PM	...while Aerdrie is... I dunno, Shaundakul? -Akadi, probably, since Shaundakul is probably getting the boot as well, or at least demoted. What happens to my cleric of Angharradh? -Good question. Apparently, Seūne/Sune/Shaundakul-Akadi are Corellon Larethian's consort.
sfdragon 01-03-08, 02:14 PM	by Bahamut's Fangs.... that is going to be a bottle of motrin for someone, they should of left things well enough alone. well okay im fine with the death the deep duerra and the grey protector, but some of the rest i dont like. be like saying that the chronomancer guy faked his own death with a clone spell what would you do with history scrolls, potions of longevity, extended life span feats, temporal stasis spells, potions of youth and a few other things..... oh wait that is actually feasible....
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 02:33 PM	that is going to be a bottle of motrin for someone, they should of left things well enough alone. -That's what aggrivates me the most. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Now, I'm not saying that nothing should have been changed, but change the things that need/warrant changing, not the things that don't.
Fabius Maximus 01-04-08, 10:27 AM	Remember that the higher-up deities will have angelic servitors like the being from the Book of Exalted Deeds. I bet Shandakul will be one of them, tied to Selune. The same will most likely happen to Valkur. Angharradh probably will be a concept of thought, rather than a deity. And remember also that the folk of the Realms won't be aware of this.
Lord Karsus 01-04-08, 11:25 AM	And remember also that the folk of the Realms won't be aware of this. -In most cases, of course. But, that doesn't change the fact that we know, and that, to us, things are being bungled.
Dzwood 01-04-08, 05:37 PM	So much is happening to the gods in FR it scares me. Part of what made the Relms special for me was the massive choice of gods. Now I Might be ok with it if they do it corectly. Has any one heard what plot devices they are going to use to justfie all this change. If u read the last entry in GHotR it says something about how only greater gads could survive the destruction <anyone got the exact quote?>. Could that mean that many of the gods were weakened and fell in to a sevetor role as a mater of survival. Some murged to protect alies. Some gods might just out right die all togeteher while other more opertunistic gods are impersonating fallen gods. I mean i think all that could lead to some fantastic RP moments. A cadre of crippled churches bans together to resurect their various gods...that could be cool. But I guess my question is what do we KNOW for sure is happening to the gods in FR? I mean i get that we are guessing based on what is happening in core but what are we sure about in FR? PS First post ever this has me so woried i am atemting internet socialization for the first time ever!!!!!!!!!!
Dzwood 01-04-08, 05:39 PM	And remember also that the folk of the Realms won't be aware of this. That would be the lamest cop-out ever :confused:
XHereticX 01-04-08, 08:04 PM	-It's not that all of that stuff, in and of itself, it totally and utterly horrible. It's partially the way that it was all pulled off. If we were given a reasonable explanation as to the hows/whys/whens/etc of Sehanine Moonbow/Selūne merging with Selūne/Sehanine Moonbow, I'd have misgivings about it, but I'd live with it. Now now, don't get overtly judgemental 6 months before they actually release the FRCG. I personally am expecting an explanation on how the elven gods perished in some previously unknown event and entrusted all of their porfolios and domains to Selune without the attention of the High Magi. Anyway, a well-crafted Lv 30 character in 3rd edition could kick the crap out of the deities in D&De and F&P anyway as well. The gods in Fr are essentially styled from the Norse gods, nothing more than overhyped superheroes that have tapped into divine energy to garner worshipppers.
Dzwood 01-04-08, 11:53 PM	Do you mean Lv 30 in 4E??? And I like to think that the FR gods have a little more depth that hyped up humans!!!! i mean come on most of the NPC we know of are way to smart to be running around worshiping "humans on god crack"
XHereticX 01-04-08, 11:59 PM	Hey, it's not much different from the Greek or Norse gods. Just divine-powered humans with a divine high to match;)
Dzwood 01-05-08, 12:36 AM	We will have to agree to disagree on this then. But rember every time you diss a god a baby sprite dies!!! Can you live with your self knowing that?
SunesKisses 01-05-08, 01:35 AM	It is just damn crazy, Many of the elven gods I loved. Thats what happens with companies. Damnit!!
Dzwood 01-05-08, 04:08 AM	Hey If they kill off some one you love write up a campaign where your players bring em back. I mean it sucks that they are making "tofu" <ya I am using it too> out of the gods but to me the siver lining is that I can personally fix it later. I clutch at that sliver lining in much the same way I grip my Xanex!!!
Fabius Maximus 01-05-08, 10:27 AM	That would be the lamest cop-out ever :confused: That's no cop-out, it makes sense. How should simple people know about the "real" gods? Very few have seen a manifestation, let alone talked with one. Gods should be mysterious and untouchable (and unstatted).
XHereticX 01-05-08, 10:33 AM	"Money, money, money, money....Moooonnnneeeeyy":rolleyes: Well, the only real difference is that the Faerunian Pantheon is far more organized (Ao), and the gods actually have responsibilities (Porfolios) that they are expected to exempt (Ao again) on the consequence that they will be removed from power. Otherwise, I see no major differences.
Lord Karsus 01-05-08, 01:52 PM	Now now, don't get overtly judgemental 6 months before they actually release the FRCG. -I've said this a billion times now: You don't have to drink poison to know it's bad for you. You can tell by reading the ingredients. To bring it full circle, I don't have to play/see 4e Forgotten Realms to know I don't like it. Sufficient material has been leaked that I don't like/agree with to allow me to make my decision. I personally am expecting an explanation on how the elven gods perished in some previously unknown event and entrusted all of their porfolios and domains to Selune without the attention of the High Magi. -That's gonna be some explanation... Anyway, a well-crafted Lv 30 character in 3rd edition could kick the crap out of the deities in D&De and F&P anyway as well. -Not if properly DMed. Player 1: "I'm going to quick draw my +4 Vorpal Sabre of Speed!" Player 2: "I begin preparing my mximized Meteor Strike" DM: "Tempus wins initiative. He attacks you, player 1...Hmm...He hits...Critical, maximized, of course...Divine power...Well, he just killed you. Because he has cleave, he attacks you, player 2. Let's see...A hit...A critical...Yep, you died too..." -Now, I'm obviously being facecious there, but...
msatran 01-05-08, 04:29 PM	Yeah. Actually, it looks more like this. Tempus wins initiative. He casts quickened anti magic field. He's a god. It doesn't affect him. Tempus instantaneously draws his +10 Dread Of Whatever Your Cleric Is, Collision, Metalline, Thundering, Greater Dispelling (Just in case your cleric has the Magic Domain), Retributive Healing weapon, because he can cast Greater Magic Weapon and it works for him in his own anti magic field, and then he kills your cleric. AFTER he kills your cleric, THEN he kills you.
GreenKnight 01-05-08, 05:42 PM	-Not if properly DMed. Player 1: "I'm going to quick draw my +4 Vorpal Sabre of Speed!" Player 2: "I begin preparing my mximized Meteor Strike" DM: "Tempus wins initiative. He attacks you, player 1...Hmm...He hits...Critical, maximized, of course...Divine power...Well, he just killed you. Because he has cleave, he attacks you, player 2. Let's see...A hit...A critical...Yep, you died too..." -Now, I'm obviously being facecious there, but... I had a similar discussion on the NWN2 boards. It was pretty amusing slapping down anyone who thought they could possibly take down Kelemvor. I especially love this one post made by one poster who thought she ought to be able to kill Kelemvor, and the response made by another poster. i would have lower its magic resistance, level drained him and change him into a mute chicken :P Kelemvor is immune to: Ability damage Ability drain acid cold death magic disease disintegration actually, pretty much every single transmutation spell electricity energy drain mind-affecting spells paralysis poison sleep stunning imprisonment banishment Everything he attacks has to save or be destroyed, and he can kill you from 16 miles away with perfect accuracy, or just rewrite reality so that you forget how to breathe. :D
Lord Karsus 01-05-08, 05:47 PM	-Just rewrite reality so you forget how to breathe...Classic. :)
Kenzuki 01-05-08, 05:50 PM	I think Demigods at the most should be within the range of being killable by mortals and that's only by EXTREAMELY powerful ones. Anything higher should be off limits. Mortals killing gods than taking their place doesn't bother me too much if it's done right and has a good story to it. I mean there have been plenty examples of this happening right?
Lord Karsus 01-05-08, 05:54 PM	Mortals killing gods than taking their place doesn't bother me too much if it's done right and has a good story to it. I mean there have been plenty examples of this happening right? -Agreed. Randomly and arbitrarily saying, "I want to kill Sharess" isn't too cool, though.
Dzwood 01-05-08, 07:25 PM	That's no cop-out, it makes sense. How should simple people know about the "real" gods? Very few have seen a manifestation, let alone talked with one. Gods should be mysterious and untouchable (and unstatted). I agree with you for the most part but as a reader and player/DM we should and do know more about the gods than say 90% of the NPC. I think it is a lame cop out if and only if they tell us hey it has always been this way deal with it. But as many people are saying we just dont know yet. Besides I am more of a novel guy so I hope this makes things beter. As for the unstated thing well yes and no. I mean after a while as players we can become gods and we have stats...so it stands to reason that the gods have stats. but they should only be used rarly and with very careful concideration. PS My DM is soo woried over what is gonna hapen with the gods he has been baned from speeking about it by his Girl friend. And all they ever talk about is D&D WotC is destroying peoples lives.....funny sure but sad too.
Kenzuki 01-05-08, 07:48 PM	-Agreed. Randomly and arbitrarily saying, "I want to kill Sharess" isn't too cool, though. Trust me I am against the whole killing gods/major lore characters for their "phat lewt" by the 1337 kids. I've been a major fan of Warcraft for years and World of Warcraft has ruined it in my opinion. Thanks to Jeff Kaplin and the EQ designers that have been working on it they've made retcons to the story and lore and are killing off major characters left and right by making them killable. Then you have some of their community managers namely Bornakk saying things like "We may never know the secrets of the forest troll warlord Zul'jin, but that doesn't stop us from appreciating the phat lewt that he drops" to paraphrase.... So I too know the pain of having your favorite fantasy world being crushed all around you *sniff sniff*.
XHereticX 01-05-08, 07:57 PM	Trust me I am against the whole killing gods/major lore characters for their "phat lewt" by the 1337 kids. I've been a major fan of Warcraft for years and World of Warcraft has ruined it in my opinion. Thanks to Jeff Kaplin and the EQ designers that have been working on it they've made retcons to the story and lore and are killing off major characters left and right by making them killable. Then you have some of their community managers namely Bornakk saying things like "We may never know the secrets of the forest troll warlord Zul'jin, but that doesn't stop us from appreciating the phat lewt that he drops" to paraphrase.... So I too know the pain of having your favorite fantasy world being crushed all around you *sniff sniff*. Yeah, I was also a huge Warcraft fan until WoW. Now Warcraft has lost its storylike qualities and has degenerated into "ZOMG, UBERPWNEZLOLOLOL..." You get the point. I am looking forward to Starcraft 2 however, if my trashy computer can handle it. I am already consitering ditching 4e FR gaming and just read the novels, as for gaming, I'll just play homebrew like everyone else around here. Playing in the Realms would be no more fun if all of the zaniness and diversity that made it appealing in the first place is gone.
BrennonGoldeye 01-05-08, 08:24 PM	Hey Brennon, been forever since I last saw you. Welcome Back. :D Hiya Stigger!:D I have an Idea. Let's consider 4e an "Elder Evil" that is making a run on the FR.....some insane Far Realm Tauric Kobold/Displacer Beast cult of Mammon....
Kenzuki 01-05-08, 08:27 PM	And didn't Azuth when he was a mortal wizard single handedly defeat Savras, then a Demigod?
XHereticX 01-05-08, 08:34 PM	And didn't Azuth when he was a mortal wizard single handedly defeat Savras, then a Demigod? Yes, and don't forget about how Finder Wyvernspur killed Moander, a Lesser deity. By the way, A properly built Lv 20 character could kick Vecna's ass any day.
GreenKnight 01-05-08, 10:57 PM	You get the point. I am looking forward to Starcraft 2 however, if my trashy computer can handle it. I don't know jack about Starcraft 2, but after seeing the trailer for it last night, I'm REALLY looking forward to Stargate Worlds. And of course, I'm still waiting to play Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures.
XHereticX 01-05-08, 11:00 PM	I don't know jack about Starcraft 2, but after seeing the trailer for it last night, I'm REALLY looking forward to Stargate Worlds. And of course, I'm still waiting to play Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures. Well, after I've beaten Halo 3 (which is boring so far), its probably either Call of Duty 4 or Assasin's Creed for me. Oh, and Oblivion of course.
GreenKnight 01-06-08, 12:08 AM	All I want is one good sci-fi MMO and one good fantasy MMO. Hopefully Stargate Worlds (which looks incredible) and Age of Conan (which also looks bad ass) will provide. Sadly, WoW doesn't provide in the latter case, at least as far as I'm concerned.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 12:10 AM	-Well, I've learned two interesting things: Warcraft existed before World of Warcraft, and there is going to be a sequel to Starcraft.
XHereticX 01-06-08, 12:58 AM	Well, what I am really waiting for is Diablo 3, and I think we may need to change the name of the thread or something before the mods show up.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 01:03 AM	-The Seldarine are going to be in Diablo 3, I hear...:shifty: -Yeah, yeah, that's why they are mostly going away in 4e! They let their contract with WotC expire, so they could enter into a contract with Blizzard.
XHereticX 01-06-08, 01:06 AM	-The Seldarine are going to be in Diablo 3, I hear...:shifty: -Yeah, yeah, that's why they are mostly going away in 4e! They let their contract with WotC expire, so they could enter into a contract with Blizzard. :devil: Judging by the way the fantasy business has been going recently, I say its only a matter of time before Blizzard buys D&D.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 01:17 AM	:devil: Judging by the way the fantasy business has been going recently, I say its only a matter of time before Blizzard buys D&D. -A Forgotten Realms game using the Diablo engine would be cool, I think.
XHereticX 01-06-08, 01:21 AM	-A Forgotten Realms game using the Diablo engine would be cool, I think. With a Secret Owlbear level and Retcon as the final boss?? Hell yeah!!!
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 01:27 AM	With a Secret Owlbear level and Retcon as the final boss?? Hell yeah!!! -Umm...Yeah, just for you. ;) -And, of course, the Seldarine will be there.
Kenzuki 01-06-08, 07:25 AM	Yes, and don't forget about how Finder Wyvernspur killed Moander, a Lesser deity. By the way, A properly built Lv 20 character could kick Vecna's ass any day. Wasn't Moander technically a Demigod at the time and wasn't it during the Time of Troubles? Karsus let me show you something glorious. Behold the wonder that Warcraft used to be before the Everquest guys got ahold of it! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warcraft_I http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warcraft_II:_Tides_of_Darkness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warcraft_III:_Reign_of_Chaos The orcs of Warcraft are my favorite version of the fantasy race, even more so than Tolkien's! I still have high hopes that Blizzard will release a Warcraft IV one day and I hope they don't consider alot of the raiding stuff to be canon for the story. Because it does kinda suck to have EVERY major villan and threat to Azeroth be downed by SirOrcsAlot and BigBewbs for their phat lewt..... Arthas Menethil by the way is one of the coolest fantasy characters ever, and Medivh could kick Elminster's heiny!;)
captaincarot 01-06-08, 07:51 AM	-Just rewrite reality so you forget how to breathe...Classic. :) why when he could just rewrite reality so that you never ever existed! much neater that way. just like the RM Be Not spell, and a right bugger to get out of as well.
gomeztoo 01-06-08, 09:49 AM	Wasn't Moander technically a Demigod at the time and wasn't it during the Time of Troubles? I read somewhere that practically every occurrence of deity death during the ToT could be explained as a deity killing another deity. And IIRC Moander has been killed and banished several times.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 10:50 AM	Wasn't Moander technically a Demigod at the time and wasn't it during the Time of Troubles? -No. Karsus let me show you something glorious. Behold the wonder that Warcraft used to be before the Everquest guys got ahold of it!! -Ah, so it was a very much Starcraft/Age of Empires type game. why when he could just rewrite reality so that you never ever existed! much neater that way. -Sure, but...It just lacks pazazz.
Fabius Maximus 01-06-08, 01:30 PM	I agree with you for the most part but as a reader and player/DM we should and do know more about the gods than say 90% of the NPC. I think it is a lame cop out if and only if they tell us hey it has always been this way deal with it. But as many people are saying we just dont know yet. Besides I am more of a novel guy so I hope this makes things beter. I don't know if the novels make it better. In the past, they made it worse... I don't have a problem with pure mechanical changes that don't affect the Realms as they are. "Merging" gods and "downgrading" them to angelic servants is such a case.
XHereticX 01-06-08, 05:24 PM	Yeah, I love Warcraft orcs too, even though they were directly ripped off from Warhammer orcs (like many other things in Warcraft were). Tolkien orcs are just a bunch of disfigured slimeballs though. Gods are really just too arrogant to use their greatest abilities on "mere mortals." Hubris is the true perpetrator of deicide in most cases.
Kenzuki 01-06-08, 07:40 PM	Yeah Karsus, Starcraft and Warcraft are by the same people and Starcraft even references Warcraft alot with the unit quotes. ""What do I look like, an orc?" "This is not Warcraft in Space!" "It's much more... sophisticated!" "I know it's not 3-D!" The Protoss Artanis says that when you click on him too much hehe. And about Moander I was just going off of this. In 171 DR, the Cormanthyr elves of Myth Drannor battled the deity's avatar in Moander's last remaining temple, slaying the priests, destroying it and sealing his essence in a spell-bound brick amid the area that is present day Yūlash, to be released only by an unborn child. However, some cultists fled south and the priesthood survived. Over the next millennium, cultists tried freeing the 'Abomination', the name given to Moander's avatar, but to no avail. In 1350 DR, however the mercenary Alias and her party were manipulated into freeing the Abomination for a time, as described in The Finder's Stone trilogy by Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb. Alias, her friends and the dragon Mist destroyed the Abomination after it had wrought terrible destruction in Cormanthor and Westgate. Reduced to a demipower, Moander was brought back to the Realms by a tribe of Saurials whom he had enslaved but was again defeated with help from the Harpers, Alias, Finder Wyvernspur and a saurial paladin named Dragonbait. The story culminates with Moander's death on his home plane, during the Time of Troubles, at the hands of Finder Wyvernspur who then takes the divine mantle for himself and becomes a demipower of change in the arts. Which is found here http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Moander
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 07:42 PM	And about Moander I was just going off of this. Which is found here http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Moander -Moander couldn't have been on his divine realm during the Time of Troubles. That what the Time of Troubles was all about. ;)
MarkusTay63 01-06-08, 07:42 PM	Don't diss Tolkien... Remember, Tolkien Orcs were created from corrupted Elves, and in 4e, some Elves DO worship Gruumsh. We may find out the real truth at last - that Corellon and Gruumsh are brothers! DUH - duh - dunnnnn....
XHereticX 01-06-08, 07:48 PM	Yeah Karsus, Starcraft and Warcraft are by the same people and Starcraft even references Warcraft alot with the unit quotes. ""What do I look like, an orc?" "This is not Warcraft in Space!" "It's much more... sophisticated!" "I know it's not 3-D!" The Protoss Artanis says that when you click on him too much hehe. And about Moander I was just going off of this. Which is found here http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Moander I think its time to have a little talk with my Wikipedia editor friend.:D
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 07:49 PM	I think its time to have a little talk with my Wikipedia editor friend.:D -It's Wikipedia, what do you expect? :P -He's around here somewhere. I think his name was Heaven'sAgent, or something to that effect.
XHereticX 01-06-08, 07:51 PM	-It's Wikipedia, what do you expect? :P -He's around here somewhere. I think his name was Heaven'sAgent, or something to that effect. No, he dosen't go to these forums.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 07:53 PM	No, he dosen't go to these forums. -He's here from time to time, and is active in the 4e threads. At least, that's who I'm misattributing the job to, anyway.
XHereticX 01-06-08, 07:54 PM	-He's here from time to time, and is active in the 4e threads. At least, that's who I'm misattributing the job to, anyway. Its someone you don't know, I met him on some other forum, though I haven't talked to him for a while.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 07:56 PM	Its someone you don't know, I met him on some other forum, though I haven't talked to him for a while. -It's HeavensAgent. I was close. He is the "care taker", I believe, and possibly an editor/contributor.
Kenzuki 01-06-08, 08:01 PM	I knew something sounded fishy about that. I haven't read that novel so I didn't really know any better :(
XHereticX 01-06-08, 08:03 PM	I read the 2nd novel in the series, but not the others. Oh, and hopefully they bring Moander back in 4e (which will most likely not happen)
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 08:07 PM	Oh, and hopefully they bring Moander back in 4e (which will most likely not happen) -I'm all for that, as long as they does not somehow displace Finder Wyvernspur in the process.
XHereticX 01-06-08, 08:11 PM	-I'm all for that, as long as they does not somehow displace Finder Wyvernspur in the process. Don't really care about him, he can keep his saurials porfolio if he wants, everything else he has been holding in reserve goes to Moander. Oh, a war between Moander and Lolth over followers would be fun.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 08:20 PM	Don't really care about him, he can keep his saurials porfolio if he wants, everything else he has been holding in reserve goes to Moander. Oh, a war between Moander and Lolth over followers would be fun. -Ah, I forgot about the Lolth angle. Because of that, Moander is not coming back. Lolth would do everything in her favor to prevent that.
XHereticX 01-06-08, 08:26 PM	-Ah, I forgot about the Lolth angle. Because of that, Moander is not coming back. Lolth would do everything in her favor to prevent that. Which consitering Lolth, would fail utterly and miserably due to PMS and ADD and result a very ****** off revived Darkbringer pulling an Orcus on her.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 08:36 PM	-Ohhhhkayyyy...
Kenzuki 01-06-08, 08:40 PM	Which consitering Lolth, would fail utterly and miserably due to PMS and ADD and result a very ****** off revived Darkbringer pulling an Orcus on her. Depends. What did Moander look like?
XHereticX 01-06-08, 08:49 PM	-Ohhhhkayyyy... :devil:
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 11:24 PM	Depends. What did Moander look like? -In technical terms, a heap of offal. -In laymans terms, a pile of crap. :)
GreenKnight 01-06-08, 11:26 PM	Completely off-topic, but... Karsus the Mad. 2004-2008. R.I.P Never Forget Karsus the Mad Dec 2004 - Jan 2008 ...what happened to Karsus the Mad?
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 11:37 PM	-Oy Vey. I wish I could start a topic...PM sent.
Alediran 01-07-08, 08:22 AM	Yeah, I've been wondering that too.
The_Shaman 01-07-08, 08:58 AM	Me too, tbh. Has he been banned for something he said about 4ED?
Kenzuki 01-07-08, 09:51 AM	-In technical terms, a heap of offal. -In laymans terms, a pile of crap. :) In that case Lolth frightens me more.....I hate spiders.
Lord Karsus 01-07-08, 12:33 PM	-PMs sent. In that case Lolth frightens me more.....I hate spiders. -So, spiders are scarier than a giant, epic sized, living pile of crap intent on eating you? ;)
gomeztoo 01-07-08, 01:16 PM	-So, spiders are scarier than a giant, epic sized, living pile of crap intent on eating you? ;) For some people, I think os, yes. I panic around wasps. My wife is terrified of snakes. A pile of dung may be a minor scare in comparison.
Selvarin 01-07-08, 01:46 PM	Unless the pile of dung is mobile and wants to hug you.
GreenKnight 01-07-08, 02:42 PM	That situation wouldn't be scary so much as it'd be... what's the word... icky.
Lord Karsus 01-07-08, 03:03 PM	Unless the pile of dung is mobile and wants to hug you. -It is, and not only does it want to hug you, but it also fights as a Fighter 30 and vomits Shambling Mounds.
msatran 01-07-08, 03:47 PM	That is the most disgusting death one could possibly imagine. It's not SCARY, but it is disgusting.
Lord Karsus 01-07-08, 03:54 PM	That is the most disgusting death one could possibly imagine. It's not SCARY, but it is disgusting. -And, think about it. Defacating and urinating as you are about to face death (as many people do) only adds to Moander's power! :P
msatran 01-07-08, 04:00 PM	That's just needlessly disgusting. :) Power from Poop. What's next? "SACRIFICE HIM!" "But that's a pile of crap..." "Yes, and now you will drown in it..." "Won't that take a long time?" "Yes, but you'll die very slowly, we're evil..."
Lord Karsus 01-07-08, 04:08 PM	-This actually gives me an idea, as I am actually going to introduce a plothook for my Druid player, involving something corrupting a section of a forest...
MarkusTay63 01-07-08, 04:55 PM	Unless the pile of dung is mobile and wants to hug you.Like THIS guy - http://datacore.sciflicks.com/weird_science/images/weird_science_large_02.jpg Image curtesy of the now-classic movie, Weird Science.
Selvarin 01-07-08, 05:17 PM	Looks like Mr. Hanky's estranged dad.
Lord Karsus 01-07-08, 05:57 PM	-Moander's Avatar is greener, and has a few more vines and branches. But, that works, for effect.
Kenzuki 01-07-08, 06:00 PM	I still think Lolth is more frightening. Spiders just freak me out, even if I was a drow I think I would still hate them. Which most would most likely mean that my drow mistress would beat me for killing the little devils....
XHereticX 01-07-08, 08:40 PM	I still think Lolth is more frightening. Spiders just freak me out, even if I was a drow I think I would still hate them. Which most would most likely mean that my drow mistress would beat me for killing the little devils.... Bah, at least Lolth is hot. Personally I would rather die by embrace of a sexy drow goddess than death by pile of living moldy droppings:yuck:
MarkusTay63 01-07-08, 09:24 PM	Yeah... that's Hot... (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm_gallery/Lolth.jpg) :rolleyes: Both are awful - I want to die by Shnoo-shnooo! :P
Kenzuki 01-07-08, 09:44 PM	When Lolth "embraces you" imagine those eight long furry legs all scrapping and flailing around you as Lolth pulls you in close for a kiss. Her forhead then developes four extra eyes and her mouth opens impossibly long as huge mandibles sprout. She then proceeds to bite off your head and suck out all your bodily fluids....
Selvarin 01-07-08, 09:44 PM	C'mon...Lolth has more hands to hold you with. And if you ask nicely I'm sure she'd let you piggyback to work...of course she'd probably gut your boss and co-workers...but anyhow... :P
Kenzuki 01-07-08, 10:01 PM	C'mon...Lolth has more hands to hold you with. And if you ask nicely I'm sure she'd let you piggyback to work...of course she'd probably gut your boss and co-workers...but anyhow... :P You do not get it do you? Spiders are absolutely disgusting creatures, they are almost as bad as roaches.... I don't care how good the top half of Lolth might look, if she has the lower part of a giant spider I'm getting the hell away from her.... Thirdly, I doubt she's the loving type considering her family history. She betrayed her husband, she allows her children to fight and kill each other, she sacrificed her grandson and consort in a game played with her daughter and will mostly kill and eat her daughter. Lolth is NOT loving!
Dzwood 01-08-08, 10:13 AM	So umm about the Gods and stuff?!?!?! no more poo talk ewww!!! Long Live Finder!!!!!!!!
Lord Karsus 01-08-08, 01:46 PM	-I agree. Finder is cool. I never liked him very much until reading the novels he was featured in.
Dzwood 01-08-08, 02:20 PM	LK is wise and correct
msatran 01-08-08, 04:51 PM	When Lolth "embraces you" imagine those eight long furry legs all scrapping and flailing around you as Lolth pulls you in close for a kiss. Her forhead then developes four extra eyes and her mouth opens impossibly long as huge mandibles sprout. She then proceeds to bite off your head and suck out all your bodily fluids.... But I forsee this is the new Lolth of 4th. http://a1040.g.akamai.net/f/1040/759/1h/pic.infospace.com/:6:_1_KFETPJ04EG36TR__wind.main/b5c4830c-4479-4520-940b-27917e551bfd.jpg This really is not a way to make friends and influence people, Ken. I'm not a Billary supporter. Far from it. But this doesn't help you retain your posting privelages.
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 05:30 PM	Lighten up, it was a joke. If I had posted a picture of Bush and used it to refer to some other god you'de all be laughing.
Lord Karsus 01-08-08, 05:47 PM	Lighten up, it was a joke. If I had posted a picture of Bush and used it to refer to some other god you'de all be laughing. -msa is hinting that politicality of any sorts (nice word. I think I made it up) is against the CoC, and can lead to a warning, or a ban.
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 05:54 PM	I didn't mention politics at all. I just posted a picture of a rather fearsome looking woman and said that was the new Lolth.
Lord Karsus 01-08-08, 06:04 PM	I didn't mention politics at all. I just posted a picture of a rather fearsome looking woman and said that was the new Lolth. -By posting a picture of Hillary Clinton, and insinuating that she is Lolth, who is evil, thin-skinned people might take it the wrong way.
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 06:12 PM	-By posting a picture of Hillary Clinton, and insinuating that she is Lolth, who is evil, thin-skinned people might take it the wrong way. Oh come on now, that's just trying too hard.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-08-08, 08:57 PM	Lighten up, it was a joke. If I had posted a picture of Bush and used it to refer to some other god you'de all be laughing. Not me. We don't need politics here. I'd keep away from it.
Dark Wizard 01-08-08, 09:21 PM	Kenzuki,, I respect you, you're usually pretty good with making sensible posts. Hoever, this might be a misstep. Maybe at any time other than the start of the national primaries and caucuses, this might be overlooked, but this could be misconstrued as injecting too much personal politics into a politics-free forum. Even with the tired Bush jokes, I usually skim over them if I pay them any attention at all.
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 09:41 PM	Ok then, I apologize. I didn't mean to offend anyone. I didn't even mention politics at all. I'll edit the post then.
Dark Wizard 01-08-08, 10:23 PM	No need to apologize, you technically didn't want the post to indirectly hint at anything. (Recalls the Howard Dean 'YEAAWH!' incident a few years ago.) Something very minor and insignificant can really throw a wrench in things, not that these boards carry enough media weight to do that. I do personally appreciate the post edit. Thanks. Besides, I'd rather not have that picture greet me every time I scan through this page. :: hint hint Msatran ;) :: On these forums I prefer ridiculously air brushed super models or at least gratuitous chain mail bikini fantasy art.
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 10:46 PM	Chainmail bikini......*drools*
GreenKnight 01-08-08, 10:49 PM	http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/264957/2267354rpgartwork.jpg
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 10:51 PM	I'de like to be her cabinboy.
Lord Karsus 01-08-08, 11:26 PM	-I think she's ugly...:shifty: -But, that's just my opinion.
Kenzuki 01-08-08, 11:30 PM	She's the prettiest I've seen, but meh any safe port in the storm so to speak.
msatran 01-09-08, 01:04 AM	Hey, I'll be her cabin boy, her first mate, and her bootlicker. OH, MY!
Lord Karsus 01-09-08, 01:07 AM	-Bah, you are all hopeless...Each and every one of you! :P
18DELTA 01-09-08, 01:58 AM	http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/264957/2267354rpgartwork.jpg -She needs to lose the Eye Patch. Other than that, well :drool: Lord Delta:fight!:
GreenKnight 01-09-08, 02:13 AM	-She needs to lose the Eye Patch. Other than that, well :drool: Sooo... you got a thing for girls with empty sockets where their eyes used to be? :blink: You know what, don't answer that. I don't want to know. :nonono:
18DELTA 01-09-08, 02:41 AM	Sooo... you got a thing for girls with empty sockets where their eyes used to be? :blink: You know what, don't answer that. I don't want to know. :nonono: -ROFL!!! Who said that she didn't have an eye in the socket? She could be like Jarlaxle, and just wearing it over that eye today? And I didn't mention anything about her outfit or lack thereof.:drool: Lord DELTA:fight!:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-09-08, 12:18 PM	You guys would sail with her? I'd rather be on the apochryphal version of this ship: http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/pugwash.asp :rofl:
GreenKnight 01-09-08, 01:04 PM	And so we see the origin of your long, hard, seamen filled joke. :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-09-08, 01:06 PM	And so we see the origin of your long, hard, seamen filled joke. :P I knew of that joke before. But the above link puts it into a hilarious new light, doesn't it? :rofl: I would join that crew, btw, I just need to think of a "suggestive" appellation. :rofl:
msatran 01-09-08, 01:09 PM	That is...really disturbing. Yet funny.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-09-08, 01:16 PM	That is...really disturbing. Yet funny. Why not join the crew of the Black Pig with me?;)
msatran 01-09-08, 01:30 PM	Because for things English, I prefer a TARDIS. :) Or Sherwood Forest, if you watch the new BBC Robin Hood. (Although the Sheriff of Nottingham steals EVERY scene he's in)
GreenKnight 01-09-08, 01:41 PM	Why not join the crew of the Black Pig with me?;) I'll join, so long as I can be your First Mate. :schemes:
Kenzuki 01-09-08, 01:43 PM	I wonder who would win, that lady or Capn' Jack Sparrow. I think they would come to a draw and start making out with alot of rum personally.
sfdragon 01-09-08, 03:07 PM	Aye, but the Rum's gone
Kenzuki 01-09-08, 06:32 PM	Aye, but the Rum's gone The Rum is always gone....
Fire_Wraith 01-09-08, 07:46 PM	Incidentally, Mythbusters did an episode where they investigated a suggestion that Pirates actually wore eyepatches not because they were missing an eye, but because it aided them in terms of nightvision - they always had one eye that was already adjusted to the dark, in case they went below during the day, or above at night. According to the rather humorous tests they tried, it's a very plausible notion.
Dzwood 01-09-08, 08:09 PM	If this were a a conversation about Sigle and Pirates they would be what kind of Pirates.....Hmmmmmmm bad joke must resist cant contain it!!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-09-08, 08:30 PM	I'll join, so long as I can be your First Mate. :schemes: Oh, please do.:devil: Of course, you'll need to come up with a "suggestive" name.;)
XHereticX 01-09-08, 09:42 PM	http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/264957/2267354rpgartwork.jpg Ohh, I definatly want to dock my ship in her harbor.:P
MarkusTay63 01-09-08, 11:12 PM	Why is the Rum gone? http://i.slickdeals.net/images/smilies2/pirate.gif Sooo... you got a thing for girls with empty sockets where their eyes used to be? :blink: You know what, don't answer that. I don't want to know. :nonono:Absolutely - http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/thumb/f/f0/PirateNun.jpg/300px-PirateNun.jpg But I prefer my nuns looking more like this - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/hotNunSmall.jpg
18DELTA 01-10-08, 01:00 AM	I knew of that joke before. But the above link puts it into a hilarious new light, doesn't it? :rofl: I would join that crew, btw, I just need to think of a "suggestive" appellation. :rofl: -You guy's(gal's) are so sick!!!:D -How about the Coxswain?:D LORD DELTA:fight!:
18DELTA 01-10-08, 01:06 AM	Why is the Rum gone? http://i.slickdeals.net/images/smilies2/pirate.gif Absolutely - http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/thumb/f/f0/PirateNun.jpg/300px-PirateNun.jpg But I prefer my nuns looking more like this - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/hotNunSmall.jpg -Markus that is so wrong one so many levels man, the nun with the eye patch.:ahem: :yuck: :bored: :uh-huh: :nonono: :bigeyes: :shifty: :blink: :doh:
Dzwood 01-10-08, 09:50 AM	:eek: :yuck: :yuck: :banghead: So ummmmm about the Seldarine and gods and FR and stuff.......before I picute eyeless Nun Pirates doing adult things with geeky forum guys any more....ewwwww I need to call my shrink
msatran 01-10-08, 10:19 AM	Yeah. That's all that's left of the Seldarine, all right. A nun with an eyepatch. In other 4e FR news, Gnome Gods all stick their head in a Tesla coil to make their hair look like the picture.
18DELTA 01-10-08, 12:25 PM	-"Come sail away, come sail away, come sail away with me":) LORD DELTA:fight!:
Dzwood 01-10-08, 03:56 PM	Searching for a good Styx joke..........?
Selvarin 01-10-08, 04:12 PM	Well Labelas was wearing an eyepatch but he'll probably become Corellon's scribe or somesuch.
Lord Karsus 01-10-08, 06:39 PM	I'll join, so long as I can be your First Mate. :schemes: -Back off, punk. Well Labelas was wearing an eyepatch but he'll probably become Corellon's scribe or somesuch. -I hope not...Which means, probably.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-10-08, 08:22 PM	-Back off, punk. Awww, I'm being fought over.:embarrass
Lord Karsus 01-10-08, 08:32 PM	-No one messes with the Konsort of Karsus, and gets away with it! GreenKnight might as well give up now, because, as we have already established, his abilities to cut off heads are ineffectual against a pseudodivine ghost like myself.
GreenKnight 01-10-08, 08:51 PM	-Back off, punk. Have at you! :duel: might as well give up now, because, as we have already established, his abilities to cut off heads are ineffectual against a pseudodivine ghost like myself. Did I mention that I've got a Ghost Touch Vorpal Greataxe? :devil:
Alediran 01-10-08, 09:18 PM	Did I mention that I've got a Ghost Touch Vorpal Greataxe? :devil: And I have ten full circles of Elven High Mages. Care to try your luck?
Lord Karsus 01-10-08, 11:08 PM	Did I mention that I've got a Ghost Touch Vorpal Greataxe? :devil: -I have Pseudodivine Resistance, and all that good stuck.
18DELTA 01-11-08, 01:01 AM	-I have the State of Texas!!!:D LORD DELTA:fight!:
GreenKnight 01-11-08, 02:04 AM	-I have Pseudodivine Resistance, and all that good stuck. Unfortunately for you, not only am I Level 30, but I'm a 4th Edition character, and 4E characters can kill full-fledged Greater Gods, much less half-dead, half-ascended split-second gods. So HAH! :P
Lord Karsus 01-11-08, 02:11 AM	Unfortunately for you, not only am I Level 30, but I'm a 4th Edition character, and 4E characters can kill full-fledged Greater Gods, much less half-dead, half-ascended split-second gods. So HAH! :P -Be that as it may, you cannot take on both me and the half-a-dozen or so miscreants that are the Hands of Karsus- Attacks of opportunity, flanking bonuses, synergy, assisting, and whatever other rules that exist that I don't use. -Admit defeat now, let's not come to blows, and since I like you, I'll even give you El Paso, Texas, complete with the salsa factory.
GreenKnight 01-11-08, 02:17 AM	Bah, hiding behind your minions, are you? If that's how you want to play it, then I'll have to deploy my own minions... ...but then again, El Paso is nice this time of year, and I do like salsa... Very well, Karsus. Pax for now.
Kenzuki 01-11-08, 09:07 AM	Unfortunately for you, not only am I Level 30, but I'm a 4th Edition character, and 4E characters can kill full-fledged Greater Gods, much less half-dead, half-ascended split-second gods. So HAH! :P How can you kill that which has no life...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-11-08, 12:05 PM	So Karsus, when are you going to come up with a "suggestive" appellation?;)
18DELTA 01-11-08, 12:12 PM	So Karsus, when are you going to come up with a "suggestive" appellation?;) -The LADY just threw the gauntlet down...in best Vader voice...my master.;) :P :D LORD DELTA
GreenKnight 01-11-08, 03:58 PM	My name aboard the Black Pig would be Seaman Will Filler. And no, it's not suggestive. Not at all. :schemes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-11-08, 06:18 PM	That's a GOOD one! :rofl:
Lord Karsus 01-11-08, 07:26 PM	...but then again, El Paso is nice this time of year, and I do like salsa... Very well, Karsus. Pax for now. -Indeed. No one can resist salsa. So Karsus, when are you going to come up with a "suggestive" appellation?;) -I'm not very good at stuff like that.
Kenzuki 01-11-08, 10:13 PM	I'll join the crew of the Black Pig, my old ship sank anyway. It was hard saying goodbye to the S.S. Filthy *****
18DELTA 01-12-08, 12:29 AM	-One Hung Low. Peter Dragon. I.P. Freely.:D Long Dong Silver! :rofl: LORD DELTA:mad:
Dzwood 01-12-08, 01:25 AM	Seaman Scabs....... Private Parts anyone anyone????? Seman Swabs
18DELTA 01-12-08, 02:01 AM	-Cman Guzzler. ;) LORD DELTA:(
Dzwood 01-12-08, 02:14 AM	-Cman Guzzler. ;) LORD DELTA:( Damn wish I had thought of that one:tiphat:
18DELTA 01-12-08, 02:19 AM	-;) The Rear Admiral:P :D LORD DELTA:(
Dzwood 01-12-08, 02:25 AM	ok now u r just showing off...and teasing me
sfdragon 01-12-08, 04:39 AM	major hignee
Alediran 01-12-08, 08:29 AM	-;) The Rear Admiral:P :D LORD DELTA:( ROFLLMAOPMP. You made me spit my keyboard. :rofl: I'm going to be Lieutenant MY Ass
XHereticX 01-12-08, 10:24 AM	I'll join the crew of the Black Pig, my old ship sank anyway. It was hard saying goodbye to the S.S. Filthy ***** I'm guessing much of the crew on that ship died of STDs anyway.
Dzwood 01-12-08, 10:48 AM	Ohhh no rino taught everyone all about......life preservers she even offered to show some people personally how to use em Not me tho...i wonder why???
XHereticX 01-12-08, 11:00 AM	Ohhh no rino taught everyone all about......life preservers she even offered to show some people personally how to use em Not me tho...i wonder why??? So do I... :88E: Is Karsus really ok having his consort in such a...liberal position?
Dzwood 01-12-08, 11:12 AM	I bet it was his idea. He has goten weird since he got that webcam
XHereticX 01-12-08, 11:27 AM	I bet it was his idea. He has goten weird since he got that webcam I really don't like where this is going...:rolleyes:
Dzwood 01-12-08, 11:37 AM	:schemes: :cheer: :invasion:
XHereticX 01-12-08, 12:03 PM	:schemes: :cheer: :invasion: Oh for god's sake :yuck: ...Karsus seriously needs to get out more
Dzwood 01-12-08, 12:15 PM	nahh you should join his group on Xtube.com it is RPG porn. but umm u still need a D20 to play <wink>
XHereticX 01-12-08, 12:17 PM	nahh you should join his group on Xtube.com it is RPG porn. but umm u still need a D20 to play <wink> More into anime porn than fantasy porn myself. But if they got some smokin' elf babes there...:cool:
Khaelieth 01-12-08, 12:18 PM	Ace Rimmer.
Dzwood 01-12-08, 12:28 PM	So umm the Elg gods...let get back on topic before we get arested
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 03:32 PM	-WTF? How did I get dragged into this?
Dzwood 01-12-08, 06:43 PM	LK you are the center of everything...you are the knowable aspect of Ao
XHereticX 01-12-08, 06:57 PM	LK you are the center of everything...you are the knowable aspect of Ao Blasphemy!!!. Lord Karsus IS Ao.:bow:
Dzwood 01-12-08, 07:45 PM	well yes Karsus is Ao and Ao is Karsus it is hard for to put into mortal spees as he exisists on mulitpul layers of existance at the same time yes time is irelavent to such a creature.
XHereticX 01-12-08, 07:53 PM	well yes Karsus is Ao and Ao is Karsus it is hard for to put into mortal spees as he exisists on mulitpul layers of existance at the same time yes time is irelavent to such a creature. More blasphemy!!!. Ao is but a mere speck of the cosmic essence that is Karsus. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-12-08, 08:14 PM	This is the funniest. Thread. EVER! :bounce:
XHereticX 01-12-08, 08:24 PM	This is the funniest. Thread. EVER! :bounce: "Rick James Bi-ach":cool: Dave Chapelle for the win.
msatran 01-12-08, 09:04 PM	Yeah. It is kind of funny. The Seldarine are all really Karsus.
XHereticX 01-12-08, 09:18 PM	Yeah. It is kind of funny. The Seldarine are all really Karsus. Who actually hated elves ;)
Dzwood 01-12-08, 10:43 PM	He placed them in FR so he could torture them through out history and then Seduce them and flim them on the HMS Latex with his faithful crew of Smarmy Muli-Class Pirates....who sit around discussing the fate of the gods in 4E See how I put that back on topic!!!!!!!
XHereticX 01-13-08, 12:05 AM	He placed them in FR so he could torture them through out history and then Seduce them and flim them on the HMS Latex with his faithful crew of Smarmy Muli-Class Pirates....who sit around discussing the fate of the gods in 4E See how I put that back on topic!!!!!!! In a particuarly disturbing and Off-topic way:D
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 12:09 AM	-The 'Praise Karsus' thread. I like that. :) -Commence and continue the praises!
18DELTA 01-13-08, 01:05 AM	ok now u r just showing off...and teasing me -Uh...sorry dude, I am down with the Ladies if you know what I mean.:D Rock Hoover.;) :rofl: LORD DELTA:fight!:
sfdragon 01-13-08, 07:21 AM	-The 'Praise Karsus' thread. I like that. :) -Commence and continue the praises! okay all hail karsus all hail karsus all hail karsus for you will be the bunyon on his left toe, you be greatful for the chance
18DELTA 01-13-08, 12:20 PM	-Craven Moorhead!!!;) LORD DELTA:fight!:
Dzwood 01-13-08, 01:03 PM	-Uh...sorry dude, I am down with the Ladies if you know what I mean.:D Rock Hoover.;) :rofl: LORD DELTA:fight!: Ohh delta I figured you were lol. It actually suprises me how many gay D&D fans I have met!!!!! But I could tell you were not one of them.....:eek: What do you think the chances are that a Sourse book will be printed with info on bringing back some of the dead gods and or re elavating some of the downsized gods??? So LK since yo are now directing RPG porn on a Pirate ship u should ask Dan to co direct one with you so he can get some practace. See the FR movie thread for thos who dont know what i am talking about. PS Dont be cheep by the good lube you know those elf wenches have sensative skin!!!
Dzwood 01-13-08, 01:03 PM	-Craven Moorhead!!!;) LORD DELTA:fight!: Arent we all!!!!!!!!!!
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 02:09 PM	-The Seldarine would be very disappointed in everyone...
18DELTA 01-13-08, 02:19 PM	-Mr. Woodcock!;),Jack Hammer! ;) :P :D LORD DELTA :rofl:
Kenzuki 01-13-08, 02:20 PM	http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/9/9e/Ceiling-Cthulhu.jpg
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 02:41 PM	-Oh, I give up...:surrender
Sol_Odlanier 01-13-08, 03:23 PM	I leave for a few days and I missed the funnies thread EVA!!! If I log as sol on a weekend there's something terribly wrong:weep:
XHereticX 01-13-08, 05:04 PM	-Oh, I give up...:surrender http://www.poster.net/anonymous/anonymous-beer-helping-ugly-people-have-sex-4900448.jpg
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-13-08, 07:02 PM	Love it, love it, love it!:pile:
XHereticX 01-13-08, 07:30 PM	Love it, love it, love it!:pile: Oh I know you love this Rino:P "You don't know what the weed can find. Why don't you come with me little girl, on a magic carpet ride.";)
Alediran 01-13-08, 07:47 PM	"You don't know what the weed can find. Why don't you come with me little girl, on a magic carpet ride.";) Bah, weed, who needs it, I'm able to get the same effect just by puting my mind to it. That means I have a weed effect anytime I want (which is two thirds of the day :D)
Kenzuki 01-13-08, 07:47 PM	Rino is making Sune proud.
XHereticX 01-13-08, 07:54 PM	Bah, weed, who needs it, I'm able to get the same effect just by puting my mind to it. That means I have a weed effect anytime I want (which is two thirds of the day :D) Dude, people say I always look stoned anyway without even trying. Frankly, I do feel stoned all the time.:cool:
The_Shaman 01-13-08, 08:22 PM	Maybe you're kind of like a warlock of Weed... its apostle among the ranks of the innocents :) Or perhaps it's a side effect of your link to Asmodeus - perhaps he likes to smoke a little? Chill out after all the brimstone, as it were? Man, that would make meetings of the Nine a lot less tense and a lot more awkward at the same time*. Not to mention bring a whole new meaning to the phrase "Stoned as hell." *: and also explain why Levistus is acting so p....d all that time. Would you pass him the joint if it's going to end up all cold and soggy afterwards?
XHereticX 01-13-08, 08:26 PM	Maybe you're kind of like a warlock of Weed... its apostle among the ranks of the innocents :) Or perhaps it's a side effect of your link to Asmodeus - perhaps he likes to smoke a little? Chill out, as it were? Man, that would make meetings of the Nine a lot less tense and a lot more awkward at the same time. Not to mention bring a whole new meaning to the phrase "Stoned as hell." So you have finally figured out the reason why kids today are such potheads eh...:devil: Now you must..."disappear"
Kenzuki 01-13-08, 08:26 PM	Check my sig on the best warlock ever.
XHereticX 01-13-08, 08:27 PM	Check my sig on the best warlock ever. You so got that from a WoW commerical.:P Mr.T could pwn that guy's white ass any day
Kenzuki 01-13-08, 08:42 PM	You so got that from a WoW commerical.:P Mr.T could pwn that guy's white ass any day I suggested that Walken do that commercial after the Shatner and T commercials came out. It would so.....rock.
XHereticX 01-13-08, 08:43 PM	I suggested that Walken do that commercial after the Shatner and T commercials came out. It would so.....rock. There's already a warlock commerical out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5IMHhG9Sv4
18DELTA 01-14-08, 01:25 AM	-Tongue-Fu action!!! Thats what my ex used to tell me.:D LORD DELTA:smirk:
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 02:26 AM	I suggested that Walken do that commercial after the Shatner and T commercials came out. It would so.....rock."Ya know... I could just... create a character... and like, kill you... with my Cow Bell... You look... like you could use... More Cow Bell... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgpD8CKSmhs)" I SO love that guy - he's such a freak!
Dzwood 01-14-08, 07:59 AM	-Tongue-Fu action!!! Thats what my ex used to tell me.:D LORD DELTA:smirk: Hehehehehehehe:devil: :bow:
The_Shaman 01-14-08, 09:07 AM	So you have finally figured out the reason why kids today are such potheads eh...:devil: Now you must..."disappear" It is quite endearing to be so sure your boss is behind it all. Have a brownie. :cookie: @18delta::rofl: :thumbsup:
18DELTA 01-14-08, 12:22 PM	Hehehehehehehe:devil: :bow: :bravo: @18delta::rofl: :thumbsup: -Well I aim to please the Ladies, it's not all about me. -I was Lesbian trained, lesbian tested, and lesbian approved(I kinda think they were bi, but hey things happen when people get drunk right?) when I was in the ARMY:D LORD DELTA:cool:
Kenzuki 01-14-08, 12:42 PM	You guys are freaks....
18DELTA 01-14-08, 12:54 PM	There's already a warlock commerical out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5IMHhG9Sv4 -:blush: :uh-huh: :nonono: :twitch: :blink: :gah: :doh: -Did you guy's see his HAIR? Wtf!!!:eek: :rolleyes: LORD DELTA:bored:
msatran 01-14-08, 11:12 PM	Well, it's obvious that the 4e designers used a lot of weed. Yo! What's your name, homes? Ty! Ty Manther! What do you do, Ty Manther? You look like a Sarrukh on crack. No.Ty Manther, that's the name of my KINGDOM, yo! I'm a Dragonborn, see! You ain't got no Seldarine no mo', you just got me! Ty Manther!
18DELTA 01-14-08, 11:33 PM	-Gladhe8her;) LORD DELTA:P
XHereticX 01-18-08, 09:05 PM	It is quite endearing to be so sure your boss is behind it all. Have a brownie. :cookie: @18delta::rofl: :thumbsup: Thanks for the poisoned brownie:D
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 09:00 PM	-This thread deserves to be brought back from oblivion just on principle.
SmartPaladin 02-20-08, 11:57 AM	-This thread deserves to be brought back from oblivion just on principle. Yes, but on who's Principle?
Lord Karsus 02-20-08, 12:32 PM	-Depends on their interest rates.
sfdragon 02-20-08, 05:38 PM	Lord Karsus has spoken, and the code of Karsus is law..... and wasnt this thread about the seldarine being gone in 4e
Lord Karsus 02-20-08, 06:54 PM	and wasnt this thread about the seldarine being gone in 4e -It started out that way, yeah.
Soltares 02-21-08, 12:24 PM	To stick with the original topic (Seldarine) and the new topic (hawt girl on girl tongue-fu action), I wonder if any of the she-Seldarine wander by Hanali's pool for a little touch (it sounds like all the boys do!). Does Aedrie leave feathers in the pool? And if they raise their fists and shout G-Force and turn into MegaAngharradh, sort of flowing into each other, does that feel good? Do the three goddesses sometimes get carried away and keep turning into Angharradh over and over, just because it's a rush?
SmartPaladin 02-22-08, 12:22 PM	To stick with the original topic (Seldarine) and the new topic (hawt girl on girl tongue-fu action), I wonder if any of the she-Seldarine wander by Hanali's pool for a little touch (it sounds like all the boys do!). Does Aedrie leave feathers in the pool? And if they raise their fists and shout G-Force and turn into MegaAngharradh, sort of flowing into each other, does that feel good? Do the three goddesses sometimes get carried away and keep turning into Angharradh over and over, just because it's a rush? What about poor Corellon Larethian? When they're Angharradh, his task of keeping the ladies happy is easy, but as soon as they turn back into their respected selves, the poor Elven Deity gets no rest what so ever! "Corelly, why don't you ever hold me anymore? Like you used to? Your always with Sehanine Moonbow... :weep:"
Lord Karsus 02-22-08, 12:50 PM	-Let's not forget that Corellon Larethian is androgynous...He's male and female- and neither- at the same time.
SmartPaladin 02-22-08, 02:14 PM	-Let's not forget that Corellon Larethian is androgynous...He's male and female- and neither- at the same time. And that Erevan Ilesere is most likely watching everything their doing, and recording it on some crystal ball to sell to the highest bidder? :P
Lord Karsus 02-22-08, 02:28 PM	-One Night in Arvandor...
sfdragon 02-22-08, 06:50 PM	-One Night in Arvandor... one night under the moon in arvandor would be a better title
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-22-08, 08:03 PM	How about just Under the Moon in Arvandor?
SmartPaladin 02-22-08, 09:13 PM	And next we'll be seeing Goddesses Gone Wild! Yeah, I got nothing...
sfdragon 02-22-08, 10:28 PM	How about just Under the Moon in Arvandor? that works
Lord Karsus 02-23-08, 01:13 AM	How about just Under the Moon in Arvandor? -Works better than mine.
Green Elven Vampire 02-23-08, 07:57 AM	So what did I miss concerning the Seldarine in the 2 months I've been offline? Is Erevan Ilesere or any other elven deities dead, replaced or ret conned!!?
Lord Karsus 02-23-08, 10:39 AM	So what did I miss concerning the Seldarine in the 2 months I've been offline? Is Erevan Ilesere or any other elven deities dead, replaced or ret conned!!? -There has been absolutely no change in what we know, concerning the Seldarine.
Lord Karsus 04-15-08, 02:03 PM	-There has been absolutely no change in what we know, concerning the Seldarine. -What an apt way to end such an epic thread. :D :rofl:
Green Elven Vampire 04-19-08, 02:53 AM	-What an apt way to end such an epic thread. :D :rofl: And what a good way to have it rise from the crypts! ;)
Stigger 04-19-08, 02:55 AM	Speaking of which, I really miss those racially differentiated vampires we got with 2e. :(
XHereticX 04-19-08, 10:36 PM	-There has been absolutely no change in what we know, concerning the Seldarine. Whoa, did I miss anything while gone? I thought they got the boot.
Daenaan 04-19-08, 11:16 PM	-What an apt way to end such an epic thread. :D :rofl: Dude, you're hilarious... this has to be the first time I've seen someone quote themselves - in order to congratulate themselves. LOL! Nice! http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/happy0065.gif
Lord Karsus 04-20-08, 11:38 AM	Whoa, did I miss anything while gone? I thought they got the boot. -Since the last time you were here, there has been n change in what we know. Dude, you're hilarious... this has to be the first time I've seen someone quote themselves - in order to congratulate themselves. LOL! Nice! http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/happy0065.gif -You know who you're talking to...:ayyyy!:
XHereticX 04-20-08, 04:06 PM	-Since the last time you were here, there has been n change in what we know. That's cool, I have no complaint with the deity system if they don't get rid of the other pantheons.
Lord Karsus 04-20-08, 06:12 PM	That's cool, I have no complaint with the deity system if they don't get rid of the other pantheons. -Well, that's the thing...
XHereticX 04-20-08, 07:51 PM	-Well, that's the thing... What? You still unhappy?
Lord Karsus 04-20-08, 09:06 PM	What? You still unhappy? -That various deities are no longer deities, for a random, arbitrary reason, and that various demihuman deities, including the Seldarine, don't actually exist as we knew them? Of course!
XHereticX 04-20-08, 09:07 PM	-That various deities are no longer deities, for a random, arbitrary reason, and that various demihuman deities, including the Seldarine, don't actually exist as we knew them? Of course! Huh? That was the case when I left forums three months ago. So it hasen't changed, why didn't you tell me?
Lord Karsus 04-20-08, 09:15 PM	Huh? That was the case when I left forums three months ago. So it hasen't changed, why didn't you tell me? -Did I not just say a few posts ago?: -Since the last time you were here, there has been in change in what we know.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-22-08, 01:39 PM	That's cool, I have no complaint with the deity system if they don't get rid of the other pantheons. They sort of are. They want fewer gods, remember?
msatran 04-24-08, 02:38 AM	They can take a big ol' hike. I'll use my 3e lore and make it myself if I have to switch.
Green Elven Vampire 07-21-08, 03:31 AM	They can take a big ol' hike. I'll use my 3e lore and make it myself if I have to switch. Precisely, just what my friends and I are doing, as well as other factions across North America are doing.
BrennonGoldeye 07-21-08, 10:10 AM	The purse is what they are looking to, so your best course of action is to deny them a single copper. :D Gotta love those retconing, kiddypandering, Cyric worshipping Plutocrats!
Lord Karsus 07-21-08, 12:09 PM	-Awesome. My summoning worked. :cool:
BrennonGoldeye 07-21-08, 12:26 PM	-Awesome. My summoning worked. :cool: But of course. ;)
Lord Karsus 07-21-08, 12:40 PM	:: Puts the Whistle of Brennon Summoning away :: -Somebody posted a picture of a Dwelf in another thread. Go do what you do so well. :P
BrennonGoldeye 07-21-08, 01:50 PM	Seems it boils down to simplicity is something for toy companies. Life is complex and the fun is knowing you will never Know. Whether the Material higher ups like it or not these Realms are for those who wish to experience an alternate adulthood. We don't wish to go through childhood again. That would be the Core. This mythos is about a twisted and complex weave of stories, legends, and hidden truths. :angelhide
msatran 07-21-08, 11:37 PM	You're awfully kind to refer to the 4e Realms as a Mythos. I'll show you where they can stick their mythos, and it's not polite!!!!!
18DELTA 07-22-08, 02:04 PM	The purse is what they are looking to, so your best course of action is to deny them a single copper. :D Gotta love those retconing, kiddypandering, Cyric worshipping Plutocrats! -Reading this made my day, good sir. Now I see why you are the RIGHT HAND!!!!:D 18DELTA :)
Serphet 07-22-08, 02:58 PM	I tihnk their trying to do with FR pantheons, what eberron did with the Soverign Host pantheon. that is essentially in FR 4e, you worship the big C on paper, but can fluff it out however you feel neccisary... which doesn't bug me all that much... this just seems to make it easier on the new guys without really killing in game effects... and the fluff is still there (and if they try to remove them altogether, a good FR dm will write them right back in)
Rauric 07-22-08, 04:45 PM	I tihnk their trying to do with FR pantheons, what eberron did with the Soverign Host pantheon. that is essentially in FR 4e, you worship the big C on paper, but can fluff it out however you feel neccisary... which doesn't bug me all that much... this just seems to make it easier on the new guys without really killing in game effects... and the fluff is still there (and if they try to remove them altogether, a good FR dm will write them right back in) I feel this way as well. It's an illusion because many of the old gods are there but just not "written up" for people to look at. Not a biggie because there are two 2E books that details the FR gods and demigods and there is another 3E supplement that tells the same info but with a few more tidbits thrown in. Plus the good DM comment is very true. If something is not in the game world that you or your players want just stick it in there anyway if it makes everyone happy. Luckily my group is filled with people that have no clue (like 2 of em) about the Realms and the others are more casual fans so DMing for them is a snap.
Drunken_Master_Nowak 07-23-08, 01:21 AM	I don't mind this change at all. I almost feel like it could have "always been that way". Like Sehanine and Selune may have always been different sides of the same coin. Or like how Talos was worshiped as Bhaelros in Calimport; same guy, different rituals, name and church hierarchy. The prayers all end up at the same mailbox, no matter where they may have been sent from. And what can mortals really understand about the nature of the gods and planes anyway? It's all a bit too big for a dwarf or human or illithid to really grasp, isn't it? The difference between Sehanine and Selune can easily be explained in-game by a good DM when 2 priests of the 2 faiths meet. They may do things completely differently, but they're sending their prayers to the same deity. They may not know it, they may not believe it, but that's what's happening.
Leiril 07-23-08, 09:31 AM	I don't mind this change at all. I almost feel like it could have "always been that way". Like Sehanine and Selune may have always been different sides of the same coin. Or like how Talos was worshiped as Bhaelros in Calimport; same guy, different rituals, name and church hierarchy. The prayers all end up at the same mailbox, no matter where they may have been sent from. And what can mortals really understand about the nature of the gods and planes anyway? It's all a bit too big for a dwarf or human or illithid to really grasp, isn't it? The difference between Sehanine and Selune can easily be explained in-game by a good DM when 2 priests of the 2 faiths meet. They may do things completely differently, but they're sending their prayers to the same deity. They may not know it, they may not believe it, but that's what's happening. But why do they need two different names and different rituals at all? It is the same god, so is this one a bit schizophrenia. Because in the novels some priests can actually talk to their gods, see them and what are they seeing, an elf or human? And why the masquerade? Why not from the beginning saying, hey elf human, fragg it, i love you all. No they seperate the worshippers, playing them against each other (elves, especially gold elves are there a bit rassistic, so that is what happens, when gods don't tell the truth?). What happens to all the resurrected and brought back people? They have seen the truth and can tell it everyone. What do you thing would happen to a proud gold elf noble if he comes to the afterlife and then there is Sehanine/Selune and all the others and all around elves and human souls danzing (because it would be a bit more strange and schizophrenia to me, if they are seperating even the souls. What should this be, a private god zoo with cages for every race, where they can show them to the visiting gods on the next godparty? "oh look i have a nice ork here, little Talos/Gruumsh" "Oh cute, Lady Selune/Sehanine, next time you are visiting me, let me show you my new elven soul."). What would a gold elf think when he sees the truth, not that the gods like gray elves, no they even like this underlings, this humans. If I would be the gold elf, I would voluntarily go to hell. There I know that everone is lying. And if someone is going to resurrect me I would like this more, because I could tell everyone of this false lying gods and start a crusade against churches who seperate the races and let play them against each other, holding worshippers as stupid playthings. The thing I don't like about it is, that it could declare events and whole novels ad absurdum (Evermeet: Island of Elves was not written only as a myth told by a mortal, the parts about Lolth are written first persona from someone observing the thing and seeing the thoughts and minds of the gods itself, like the start and end of the Lady Penitent novels). What with the fights of the Time of Troubles, well if some of the gods were not there, or are one then some things could not have happened. What I hate most about such changes is, that they are declaring loved things we had paid for and cared for as worthless and never counting. It is the same GL did with Star Wars and Indy, what the Wizards had done to Krynn with this Overlordthing. I like continuity about the fiction worlds, a whole complex world full of myths, stories and opportunities and above all continuity in it, not that I must every second book rethink everything I have previously read and turn the whole world up and down each time. I'd liked the complex FR, it was a bit like the reality, a god for everyone for every need, like it was in ancient greek (I am studying this, so I like polytheism). It was full richbodied, now only 20 or so gods, easy rules mostly for fights that newbies could besser come in? Heh? Everysingleone of us was once a newbie and learned the things, is the next generation of D&D customer only a Diabolo HacknSlay one hour gamer? I thought Miniatures was created for this kind of thing, why make the real D&D alike?
Lord Karsus 07-23-08, 10:56 AM	The difference between Sehanine and Selune can easily be explained in-game by a good DM when 2 priests of the 2 faiths meet. They may do things completely differently, but they're sending their prayers to the same deity. They may not know it, they may not believe it, but that's what's happening. -Of course, that all falls apart because Sehanine Moonbow and Selūne had two separate avatars during the Time of Troubles. You know, when every deity was alloted only one. And, of course, omniscient narrators also declare Sehanine Moonbow and Selūne distinct and separate entities...
Flash_Plasma 07-23-08, 11:26 AM	I find this whole 4e realms thing very depressing, mostly because I actually LIKE the ruleset, its the lore that's getting bombed into oblivion. My friends and I played a one shot 4e adventure using the tried and true realms, when we finished we all thought it had the nostalgic flavor of Baldur's Gate 2. The 4e rules work fine with old edition flavor/lore, perhaps moreso than 3.5e ever did. Ignore the pointless stuff like rays only usable through wands and you've got a viable realms staring you in the face, you don't need to obliterate the setting, hell you can run it from the start of the 3e timeline and it seems to work great, pickup some of the cool homebrew classes out there like bard and druid and its even better. This mindless destruction crap isn't just unnecessary it's profane.
Lord Karsus 07-23-08, 11:32 AM	I find this whole 4e realms thing very depressing, mostly because I actually LIKE the ruleset, its the lore that's getting bombed into oblivion. My friends and I played a one shot 4e adventure using the tried and true realms, when we finished we all thought it had the nostalgic flavor of Baldur's Gate 2. The 4e rules work fine with old edition flavor/lore, perhaps moreso than 3.5e ever did. Ignore the pointless stuff like rays only usable through wands and you've got a viable realms staring you in the face, you don't need to obliterate the setting, hell you can run it from the start of the 3e timeline and it seems to work great, pickup some of the cool homebrew classes out there like bard and druid and its even better. This mindless destruction crap isn't just unnecessary it's profane. -Use the rules, but not the setting, then. Plenty of other people liked the 4e rules, but not the 4-Gotten Realms. The two aren't inseparably connected. Use the 4e rules, but the 3e "snapshot" of the setting.
Lord Karsus 08-08-08, 12:18 PM	-Well, we have a definitive answer concerning Sehanine Moonbow, now: In the tumult of the Plague Years, Selune finds that she has to concentrate her power to preserve the Gates of the Moon, revealing that Sehanine Moonbow was one of her manifestations. As part of reabsorbing some of the power that she once used to create Mystra, and withdrawing from manifestations such as Sehanine, Selune assumes the strength of a greater god. Several other gods with similar "multiple manifestations" had to do the same: Chauntea and Yondalla, Talos and Gruumsh, a couple of others. OK, now on to table-talk: Why does Sehanine survive in the core pantheon, but not the FR pantheon? The answer is simple: the core pantheon doesn't have Selune. Basically, we weren't going to keep two chaotic good moon goddesses around, so who was manifesting who? Selune is a more central and important figure in the Realms than Sehanine. The FR design team wanted Selune, not Sehanine. On the other hand, Gruumsh and Talos are both one-eyed, chaotic evil gods of destruction. But Gruumsh has a heavier "investment," even in the context of FR, so he stays Gruumsh and reabsorbs Talos. I'm sure the next ten posts will explain what morons we are for thinking we could do something like this, but I'll ask you to consider this first: If you take it as a desired goal to present a smaller, tighter-focused pantheon, it's pretty reasonable to assume that Sehanine is the elven name for Selune, and those two goddesses were always in some way the same being, even though they had separate existences for ages.
Quale_ 08-08-08, 02:52 PM	that blows, Sehanine was my favourite deity, quite different than Selune indeed they are morons
Lord Karsus 08-08-08, 02:54 PM	that blows, Sehanine was my favourite deity, quite different than Selune -Indeed. What Sehanine Moonbow had to to with lycanthopes, and Selūne with mysticism, I don't know. But, whatever...
Quale_ 08-08-08, 03:06 PM	I'm surprised that they kept one chaotic good goddess cause CG no longer exists
Belorin 08-08-08, 05:44 PM	Well, she won't be CG, just Good. If El is still around then some of the other chosen may still exist, if they had similar magical protection. Bel
Iluvrien 08-08-08, 06:30 PM	If El is still around then some of the other chosen may still exist, if they had similar magical protection. Want to put money on that? I would definitely take that bet were you to do so.
GreenKnight 08-08-08, 06:31 PM	Depends on how you define Chosen. Are we talking strictly Chosen of Mystra, or Chosen, period?
Iluvrien 08-08-08, 07:49 PM	Depends on how you define Chosen. Are we talking strictly Chosen of Mystra, or Chosen, period? Well since El was used by Belorin as the comparator, I was referring to Mystra's Chosen. Hence why I felt it was a safe bet. I doubt anyone elses Chosen were as hated and so will not be under the same notice of execution.
Belorin 08-08-08, 08:08 PM	I meant Mystra's Chosen, I don't really use any other deities chosen, I call them champions. Mystra needed her chosen to help hold her power over the weave, other deities don't need that kind of support. Bel
MarkusTay63 08-08-08, 10:05 PM	The rest of them may still be around, but not quite the way you all think... Do remember that El 'hears voices' in his head now, and if you read any of the novels featuring multiple Chosen (like SotA or El in Hell), you would know that they were all mentally linked together. ;)
Lord Karsus 08-09-08, 12:07 AM	I doubt anyone elses Chosen were as hated... -No, I don't think so, either. The rest of them may still be around, but not quite the way you all think... Do remember that El 'hears voices' in his head now, and if you read any of the novels featuring multiple Chosen (like SotA or El in Hell), you would know that they were all mentally linked together. ;) -I don't think so. Remember, Eliminster is afraid to use magic, let the "voices in his head" gain control of his body. If it were the Seven Sisters (or, however many live), why would he be afraid of one of them gaining control of his body for a limited time, and his sentience being "pushed" to the back of his own mind? No, that he is afraid says to me, at least, that whatever voices he hears, and whatever entities exist within his own body, are malevolent.
MarkusTay63 08-09-08, 02:29 AM	They are all trapped 'within' the magic - and its not just the seven sisters'; it would include the Magister and other Chosen, many of which we may not have known about. Even the personality of Mystra - or Midnight (or both) - could be trapped within the magic within him. He is ALL that remains of the Weave, and anything or anyone with a deep connection to it probably got sucked inside him. He may have even done this willingly, to preserve what he could. Now, we know a lot of those people had some pretty strong personalities, like Storm or the Simbul - what happens if he goes to use his magic, and they manage to get out, just for an instant? I think he can't use his magic easily anymore because he is using all of it to keep a lid on them, and if he lets it slip for just an instant, he may never get his sanity back. He could have a hundred seperate people all trying to control him at once. I also think that this is one of their little deus ex machina, like Abeir. We won't be told the exact details of whats really going on inside El's head, because they can use that plot device to restore whatever they want at a later date, if they realize they have made a mistake. They could even use Elminster to resurrect Mystra and restore the Weave. As long as we don't know what is going on inside, they can use it to say anything.
AskaniPsion 08-09-08, 02:35 AM	that blows, Sehanine was my favourite deity, quite different than Selune indeed they are morons Yeah she was my favorite too :weep: - I already discussed with my current 4E DM that we are saying Sehanine absorbed Selune. :P If Selune appears in any novels, I will cross her name out. hehe
GreenKnight 08-09-08, 02:35 AM	They could even use Elminster to resurrect Mystra and restore the Weave. As long as we don't know what is going on inside, they can use it to say anything. One can only hope. Handle things right, and quite a bit can be undone while creating an enjoyable storyline in the process. I've seen worse fixed by talented writers, before. While I doubt the Weave or Mystra's overarching control will ever be brought back (not that I'll miss that part), I really want to see Mystra return, and bring some of the Seven Sisters back with her.
Fire_Wraith 08-09-08, 02:38 AM	I also think that this is one of their little deus ex machina, like Abeir. We won't be told the exact details of whats really going on inside El's head, because they can use that plot device to restore whatever they want at a later date, if they realize they have made a mistake. And it could all turn out to be just a dream in a child's snowglobe, or any other 80s TV Ending cliche. :D It certainly wouldn't be any more convoluted or less believable than some of the stuff that's in the current changes. :(
MarkusTay63 08-09-08, 02:54 AM	Right... but Abeir and Elminster's faulty sanity are both very good "get out of jail free" cards for them, if they need to back-peddle at all. There's even a couple of important people who have 'gone missing', rather then get killed, like the Simbul and Alusair. lots and lots of open ends...
Meldread 08-09-08, 03:36 AM	Yes, but this is good for DM's as well as WotC. If a DM wants to use these plot devices in their game to bring back Mystra or the Weave, the option is open to them. That is why I prefer them to leave it open ended.
Lord Karsus 08-09-08, 01:08 PM	They are all trapped 'within' the magic - and its not just the seven sisters'; it would include the Magister and other Chosen, many of which we may not have known about. Even the personality of Mystra - or Midnight (or both) - could be trapped within the magic within him. ... Now, we know a lot of those people had some pretty strong personalities, like Storm or the Simbul - what happens if he goes to use his magic, and they manage to get out, just for an instant? I think he can't use his magic easily anymore because he is using all of it to keep a lid on them, and if he lets it slip for just an instant, he may never get his sanity back. He could have a hundred seperate people all trying to control him at once. -He is "insane" because he hears all of their voices within his own head. We don't know the number, or the exact people. But, as I said, if it's the Seven Sisters, the rest of Mystra's Chosen, the last Magister, and even Midnight herself, why is Elminster afraid of using magic, and "risking" these personalities temporarily gaining control of his body? He trusts these people more than anyone. Now, if the entities within him were malevolent, like I was saying, then it would make sense that Elminster quit using magic, to prevent the entities from gaining "freedom", if even for a moment.
Therise 08-09-08, 01:21 PM	-He is "insane" because he hears all of their voices within his own head. We don't know the number, or the exact people. But, as I said, if it's the Seven Sisters, the rest of Mystra's Chosen, the last Magister, and even Midnight herself, why is Elminster afraid of using magic, and "risking" these personalities temporarily gaining control of his body? He trusts these people more than anyone. Now, if the entities within him were malevolent, like I was saying, then it would make sense that Elminster quit using magic, to prevent the entities from gaining "freedom", if even for a moment. Maybe one of them is Semmemon. ;)
Lord Karsus 08-09-08, 01:44 PM	Maybe one of them is Semmemon. ;) -Or Manshoon. All of them.
Meldread 08-09-08, 06:55 PM	-He is "insane" because he hears all of their voices within his own head. We don't know the number, or the exact people. But, as I said, if it's the Seven Sisters, the rest of Mystra's Chosen, the last Magister, and even Midnight herself, why is Elminster afraid of using magic, and "risking" these personalities temporarily gaining control of his body? He trusts these people more than anyone. Now, if the entities within him were malevolent, like I was saying, then it would make sense that Elminster quit using magic, to prevent the entities from gaining "freedom", if even for a moment. A few options: 1. They are all utterly insane, or El believes them to be insane. 2. El doesn't know it's them. 3. It's not them. 4. They say it's them but El is crazy and doesn't believe them. 5. Do you want to lose control of your body, even if it meant giving it over to someone you trusted completely? As in, to be completely powerless and become nothing but an observer to your own actions? No sane person would want to do that unless there was dire need.
GreenKnight 08-09-08, 11:51 PM	One option would be that it's both friends and enemies, but Elminster can't determine who it is who'd emerge should he wrest control of his identity. It might be Alustriel... or it might be Manshoon. Best not to risk it at all, in that case. I also like "2. El doesn't know it's them.". He's got maybe dozens of voices in his head. He can't distinguish between them, and has no idea who he's got rattling around in there.
Lord Karsus 08-10-08, 02:22 PM	1. They are all utterly insane, or El believes them to be insane. 2. El doesn't know it's them. 3. It's not them. 4. They say it's them but El is crazy and doesn't believe them. -Nothing in the text we have concerning Elminster and his status refers to anything like thes, so, for the time, there's no evidence, but it could be. 5. Do you want to lose control of your body, even if it meant giving it over to someone you trusted completely? As in, to be completely powerless and become nothing but an observer to your own actions? No sane person would want to do that unless there was dire need. -Being as that bodily possession is a "magical" creation, that does not happen, I cannot say whether or not I would like it, not like it, permit it, or not permit it. But, what I can say is that, when people are very intimate with each other and all of that good stuff, that's only a "step away" from something such as "possession".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-11-08, 01:11 PM	I meant Mystra's Chosen, I don't really use any other deities chosen, I call them champions. Mystra needed her chosen to help hold her power over the weave, other deities don't need that kind of support. Bel Actually, that's an inaccurate statement. Mystra doesn't need Chosen, she was ordered to have them by Ao as a check on her power.
Karazhan 08-11-08, 01:28 PM	It also seems the new catch-phrase is Exarchs and not Chosen. All the deities have them now. So, even though so many chosen were an issue and reason for eliminating Mystra and company, it's perfectly fine now for others to exist in droves. Just sad :(
Alediran 08-11-08, 02:06 PM	It also seems the new catch-phrase is Exarchs and not Chosen. All the deities have them now. So, even though so many chosen were an issue and reason for eliminating Mystra and company, it's perfectly fine now for others to exist in droves. Just sad :( And I have a big issue with the word Exarch because they are the evil Archmages who destroyed the First City in Mage: the Awakening, so every time I hear that word I have the urge to kick evil archmages in their buttocks.
Lord Karsus 08-11-08, 02:06 PM	It also seems the new catch-phrase is Exarchs and not Chosen. All the deities have them now. So, even though so many chosen were an issue and reason for eliminating Mystra and company, it's perfectly fine now for others to exist in droves. Just sad :( -Exarches and Chosen are two different things. Exarches are deities, and Chosen are mortals. Think of an Exarch as a saint.
Deinos 08-11-08, 04:57 PM	This news sent me into fits of pleasure not unlike a Thoon Madcrafter eating a brain. I was disgusted when I read about in 3E how there's this ridiculous surfeit of good gods outnumbering the evil ones.
Lord Karsus 08-11-08, 05:30 PM	This news sent me into fits of pleasure not unlike a Thoon Madcrafter eating a brain. I was disgusted when I read about in 3E how there's this ridiculous surfeit of good gods outnumbering the evil ones. -And, pray tell, how much have you read? Most are ambivalently neutral, in what they represent.
MarkusTay63 08-11-08, 08:01 PM	Note that it is mostly 'new' people here that like the new Realms, which seems to imply that they weren't fans to begin with (else, why weren't they participating on this forum sooner?) And are only happy now because they NEVER liked the Realms, and still won't. :( I'm glad the FR-haters are all THRILLED over what the WotC boys have done - the designers should congratulate themselves for pleasing all the folks that never bought any novels or FR products. :rolleyes:
Belorin 08-11-08, 08:12 PM	As was posted in the Huzzah thread, it seems a majority of the Seldarine made it, although some were changed in power or scope. Corellon Larethian Angharradh now permanently joined Deep Sashelas Erevan Ilesere Fenmarel Mestarine Labelas Enoreth Shevarash Solonor Thelandira Bel
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-11-08, 09:08 PM	Angharradh now permanently joined I was wondering--if Sehanine was only ever an aspect of Selune (and is now reabsorbed into her), does that mean Angharradh now only consists of Hanali and Aedrie?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-11-08, 09:09 PM	I was disgusted when I read about in 3E how there's this ridiculous surfeit of good gods outnumbering the evil ones. Not sure if I'm understanding you, but IIRC the good, evil, and neutral deities were all fairly well-balanced against each other in the FR.
Meldread 08-11-08, 09:57 PM	I was wondering--if Sehanine was only ever an aspect of Selune (and is now reabsorbed into her), does that mean Angharradh now only consists of Hanali and Aedrie? Seems a bit strange, doesn't it? I guess you could say that, or that Selune only with drew part of her essence from Sehanine, and the rest was absorbed into Angharradh. Or if you hate the idea that Sehanine was an aspect of Selune, then just ignore that and claim that -all- of Sehanine was absorbed into Angharradh. Either way, it explains why Sehanine is gone. :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-11-08, 09:59 PM	Seems a bit strange, doesn't it? I guess you could say that, or that Selune only with drew part of her essence from Sehanine, and the rest was absorbed into Angharradh. Or if you hate the idea that Sehanine was an aspect of Selune, then just ignore that and claim that -all- of Sehanine was absorbed into Angharradh. Either way, it explains why Sehanine is gone. :P True enough. Bleh.
Lord Karsus 08-11-08, 11:13 PM	As was posted in the Huzzah thread, it seems a majority of the Seldarine made it, although some were changed in power or scope. -The Seldarine is dead...:( -Eh, no matter. As long as Elves of Faerūn exists, the Seldarine will live on.
GreenKnight 08-11-08, 11:56 PM	I always thought Angharradh was a bit weird. Three goddesses who merge into one? Since when did the Seldarine become the Transformers? "SELDARINE! Merge to form DEVASTATOR!"
Lord Karsus 08-11-08, 11:57 PM	I always thought Angharradh was a bit weird. Three goddesses who merge into one? -Hello? Christianity? :P -That said, being a Sun Elf, I never believed the myths of Angharradh.
GreenKnight 08-12-08, 12:10 AM	-Hello? Christianity? :P They aren't three separate gods who merge to form one super-god. :P
Lord Karsus 08-12-08, 12:13 AM	They aren't three separate gods who merge to form one super-god. :P -Not wanting to start the Inquisition again, I will say no more.
Therise 08-12-08, 01:38 AM	-Hello? Christianity? :P -That said, being a Sun Elf, I never believed the myths of Angharradh. Actually, more along the lines of ancient germanic tripartite goddesses, rather than Christianity.
Quale_ 08-12-08, 04:30 AM	Celts also had tripartite deity similar to Angharradh
Lord Karsus 08-12-08, 12:23 PM	-Angharradh feels empty inside, without Sehanine Moonbow. -See, there's something that, while I might not like it 100%, would make sense. Something catastrophic happens (perhaps the new Evermeet garbage), and to right it, Sehanine Moonbow, Aerdrie Faenya and Hanali Celanil had to permanently morph into Angharradh. That "gets rid" of those deities, all while not retconning any of their own existences.
sfdragon 08-12-08, 01:04 PM	I never could pronounce her name to begin with.....
Lord Karsus 08-12-08, 01:14 PM	-Sehanine Moonbow? Seh-Ha-Neen Moon-Bow
Iluvrien 08-12-08, 04:07 PM	-Sehanine Moonbow? Seh-Ha-Neen Moon-Bow I think he meant Angharradh... obvious has never been to Wales. Went to a beach called "Mwnt" once... Any language that decides vowels are optional is pretty surreal in my book.
Belorin 08-12-08, 04:09 PM	Perhaps each one suffered a loss of power similar to Sehanine Moonbow, Hanali Celanil: beauty, love and to Sune and Aerdrie Faenya is the anchor that keeps them focused on the present and not dwelling on what was lost. It's interesting that Angharradh's sphere is wisdom, as in the wisdom that comes from loss. Celts also had tripartite deity similar to Angharradh Yes, the Morrigan a war goddess. Bel
sfdragon 08-12-08, 05:12 PM	-Sehanine Moonbow? Seh-Ha-Neen Moon-Bow meant the other one , the former tri-une goddess whose name i can never pronounce.
Lord Karsus 08-12-08, 05:12 PM	I think he meant Angharradh... -Ah. Angharradh: Ang-Ger-Rod Went to a beach called "Mwnt" once... Any language that decides vowels are optional is pretty surreal in my book. -Hebrew does not have vowels. It's not that hard.
Arawn76 08-12-08, 05:16 PM	I think he meant Angharradh... obvious has never been to Wales. Went to a beach called "Mwnt" once... Any language that decides vowels are optional is pretty surreal in my book. OT: w is a vowel, it's pronounced "oo" On topic, I was all for god slaying willy nilly but I am a bit disappointed they took a hatchet to the racial pantheons. And also in Welsh at least Angharad is pronounced more like ahng-HAHR-ahd. We stress the second syllable.
Iluvrien 08-12-08, 05:45 PM	OT: w is a vowel, it's pronounced "oo" And also in Welsh at least Angharad is pronounced more like ahng-HAHR-ahd. We stress the second syllable. OT: My apologies, I was being mostly facetious here Arawn. I have been introduced to Welsh pronounciation by a couple of friends and an uncle all of whom speak/spoke it. Worry not, even though I am English I am not entirely ignorant ;) . On topic, I have been using the Welsh version of Angharradh since I first saw it in Evermeet:IoE... which of course is now Evermeet:Island of (no) Elves.
Lord Karsus 08-12-08, 06:03 PM	-Well, the title is still good, but the 'of' needs to be used in the past tense, not the present. ;)
Iluvrien 08-12-08, 06:09 PM	-Well, the title is still good, but the 'of' needs to be used in the past tense, not the present. ;) Indeed. Although I am not even sure that it fits. I mean, no cities, no dragons, no elves... much dungeon. How can it be an Island of Elves if (from the sounds of it) almost every trace of their occupancy is gone? Surely the new tenants would be fairly quick to have it renamed? I don't know, just seems.. hollow? A bit like Cormyr.. all of this "necessary evil" malarkey is starting to get on my nerves.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-12-08, 08:44 PM	-See, there's something that, while I might not like it 100%, would make sense. Something catastrophic happens (perhaps the new Evermeet garbage), and to right it, Sehanine Moonbow, Aerdrie Faenya and Hanali Celanil had to permanently morph into Angharradh. That "gets rid" of those deities, all while not retconning any of their own existences. Yes, it's pretty obvious Angharradh is permanent now as a way of pruning the deities. Angharradh just never stirred my interest the way the individual goddesses did, though.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-12-08, 08:46 PM	Went to a beach called "Mwnt" once... Any language that decides vowels are optional is pretty surreal in my book. Ever checked out the Last Mythal trilogy? In the first book, the word "cwm" is used constantly. I recall someone wondering in an amazon.com review if it was some strange elven word. :rofl:
Lord Karsus 08-12-08, 08:52 PM	Angharradh just never stirred my interest the way the individual goddesses did, though. -Me neither. I tend to ignore the myths that concern her. I know in Elves of Faerūn, being as that it is written by a Sun Elf, I replace Sehanine Moonbow in place of Angharradh, for the myths and stuff. Ever checked out the Last Mythal trilogy? In the first book, the word "cwm" is used constantly. I recall someone wondering in an amazon.com review if it was some strange elven word. :rofl: -I know, I thought it was a typo until I discovered it was being used over and over agan. :embarrass
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-12-08, 08:58 PM	-Me neither. I tend to ignore the myths that concern her. I know in Elves of Faerūn, being as that it is written by a Sun Elf, I replace Sehanine Moonbow in place of Angharradh, for the myths and stuff. Make sense, with you being a sun elf and all.;) -I know, I thought it was a typo until I discovered it was being used over and over agan. :embarrass Let's just say "cwm" is a word I had to look up, LOL.
Arawn76 08-12-08, 08:59 PM	Ever checked out the Last Mythal trilogy? In the first book, the word "cwm" is used constantly. I recall someone wondering in an amazon.com review if it was some strange elven word. :rofl: :nonono: Was it at least used in the correct context? Out of curiosity is the Last Mythal trilogy any good? I was thinking of giving it a go. @Iluvrien: Oops:embarrass , sorry I tend to get a little screwy around my language/history/culture. Angharradh has always been my favorite of the four but it was her tripartite identity that identified her :confused: , I want a good explanation how she still exists if Sehanine is absorbed by Selune.
Lord Karsus 08-12-08, 09:03 PM	Angharradh has always been my favorite of the four but it was her tripartite identity that identified her :confused: , I want a good explanation how she still exists if Sehanine is absorbed by Selune. -It's not that Sehanine Moonbow was absorbed by Selūne, it's that Sehanine Moonbow was always Selūne, that the Elves believed was a separate entity known as Sehanine Moonbow.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-12-08, 09:06 PM	:nonono: Was it at least used in the correct context? Actually I'm pretty sure it was. But you sound like you'd be more of an expert on that.:) Out of curiosity is the Last Mythal trilogy any good? I was thinking of giving it a go. I have to be honest and say that I did not care for the series overall, not only because of the changes to the setting (I'll not spoil anything, but you might know about them by now), but because I just didn't think the character writing was that good. That said, I see no reason for you not to read them if you're interested.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-12-08, 09:16 PM	double post.
Arawn76 08-12-08, 09:18 PM	Actually I'm pretty sure it was. But you sound like you'd be more of an expert on that.:) . As long as their referring to valleys :D I have to be honest and say that I did not care for the series overall, not only because of the changes to the setting (I'll not spoil anything, but you might know about them by now), but because I just didn't think the character writing was that good. That said, I see no reason for you not to read them if you're interested. Hmm, I might give it a skip I haven't collected any Realms novels in years, well except Swordmage but that's mentally indexed in my FR reimagined folder. Right alongside Ronald D Moores BSG. Thanks or the mini-review :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-12-08, 09:19 PM	As long as their referring to valleys :D That was the case.:) Hmm, I might give it a skip I haven't collected any Realms novels in years, well except Swordmage but that's mentally indexed in my FR reimagined folder. Right alongside Ronald D Moores BSG. Thanks or the mini-review :) You're welcome.:)
Lord Karsus 08-12-08, 09:31 PM	Make sense, with you being a sun elf and all.;) -Yup. :embarrass Let's just say "cwm" is a word I had to look up, LOL. -Heh, I remember, when I was reading that particular novel, I was working as a Summer Intern where my mother worked at the time, in Jersey City. I commuted with her, but the problem was, she worked overtime in the mornings, and started work an hour earlier than me. So, I sat around in my cubicle and read for an hour each morning. For the rest of the day, I was wondering what a 'cwm' was (though, I figured it was something having to do with terrain), not having access to a dictionary, or anything.
Lord Karsus 08-12-08, 09:36 PM	Make sense, with you being a sun elf and all.;) -Yup. :embarrass Let's just say "cwm" is a word I had to look up, LOL. -Heh, I remember, when I was reading that particular novel, I was working as a Summer Intern where my mother worked at the time, in Jersey City. I commuted with her, but the problem was, she worked overtime in the mornings, and started work an hour earlier than me. So, I sat around in my cubicle and read for an hour each morning. For the rest of the day, I was wondering what a 'cwm' was (though, I figured it was something having to do with terrain), not having access to a dictionary, or anything.
MerrikCale 08-13-08, 11:06 AM	you're starting to repeat yourself:D
Leiril 08-13-08, 11:18 AM	you're starting to repeat yourself:D That's called Karsus's Folly :D
Lord Karsus 08-13-08, 12:35 PM	:rimshot: :rolleyes:
MerrikCale 08-14-08, 11:13 PM	That's called Karsus's Folly :D Thats the least of his problems
Lord Karsus 08-16-08, 12:08 AM	-Yes, the loss of the Seldarine would be problematic, if I followed the 4e stuff.
Charles Phipps 08-16-08, 08:03 AM	So, does anyone know where I can view the new 4E pantheon? Also, honestly, I actually don't mind the Sehaine business. I don't think that she had any business existing in the Realms while Selune did.
Alediran 08-16-08, 08:05 AM	So, does anyone know where I can view the new 4E pantheon? Also, honestly, I actually don't mind the Sehaine business. I don't think that she had any business existing in the Realms while Selune did. In that you are wrong, because it's Sehanine the goddess of death and mystery for the elves, and patron goddess of Moon Elves.
Charles Phipps 08-16-08, 08:23 AM	In that you are wrong, because it's Sehanine the goddess of death and mystery for the elves, and patron goddess of Moon Elves. I'm confused? What does that add? Other than Selune should probably have a larger role.
Leiril 08-16-08, 08:38 AM	I'm confused? What does that add? Other than Selune should probably have a larger role. Selune is a godess of humans, and Sehanine of elves. That are complete different races and beings with a much more different evolution (actually elves do not evolve they are magical). So between elves and humans stands worlds of different rules for creating them, evolving them, caring for them, understand them. Why should an elf have the same god like a human, if both didn't even share a common evolution, history, kind of thinking and behavior, and certainly not the same culture? Sure, to merge them, make the outcome more, hm, powerful, but not more logical and also not more interesting. It's like a bouquet of flowers. One is colorful with every nice flower of springtime and the other (now 4Ed) is only green and full of grass (cause flowers are now retconned away, a meadow is still a meadow if there is only grass).
Charles Phipps 08-16-08, 08:50 AM	I actually don't consider Selune a human goddess. She's a goddess well before the human race. She's the goddess of Toril's Moon and the creator of the planet. Really, humans worshiping her is almost incidental.
Leiril 08-16-08, 08:53 AM	Humans are one of the creator races and had been there, long before elves came to Toril, so it is logical, that they worship gods who had been there since the beginning. Elves were aliens (but they look much better than a xenomorph :) ) and came from an alienworld, so it is logical, that they bring their culture and their religion with them. It's like in the real world, the Natives in America had allready some gods and a religion, but the people from "old europe" brought their christian thing to the New World.
Fabius Maximus 08-16-08, 08:54 AM	Why should the people of Faerun know that Sehanine and Selune are one and the same? Why shouldn't there be to set of myths for the same deity? You're not seeing this from a player perspective.
Leiril 08-16-08, 08:56 AM	Why should the people of Faerun know that Sehanine and Selune are one and the same? Why shouldn't there be to set of myths for the same deity? You're not seeing this from a player perspective. Sure I am, cause I am thinking of the elf perspective, a complete alien race, with it's own history and coming from "over the ocean" with their full evolved culture to a world, where some Natives with their own, complete different culture, lived. As a proud gold elf I would never let go of my ancestors stories, the proud history of my race, wich reaches back to a time when the Seldarine created my ancestors on a much better world and made me a much better being than some underdeveloped and uncivilized humans of a foreign world, ripe to being conquered and colonized. Sure humans had their own stories and "know" something about creator myths, but elfs weren't there in this time, they came fully evolved and with their culture complete developed from outerworld. They hold deer to their traditions, more than humans do, they've never forgotten and lived long enough to remember. They are sometimes rassistic and do not so easy share their culture with others, especially gold elfes, and the ones on Evermeet, they had always a special link to gods, like most human cultures never had. So how should they get anything wrong about their racial history? Yes, now someone can say Sehanine was Selune, Corellon was every other elven god (and made some hollywood show when he talked to them with different personalities). But it is somewhat boring, cause it takes out the special flavor of this culture. And then, when they came from outerworld, why is there in the other universes still a Sehanine, wich is not Selune? And if our Selune is only a native Toril godess, why would she have take influence on beings wich did not exist in her Realm (like elves did thousands of years, before they came to Toril)? Next Problem, Angharradh, she is allready a merged being, but now its much more complicated (who are the other two, and how many gods, merge into her? Is there now Selune merged with Corellon, who needs to seperate himself into two of his shizophrenia-beings to get merged into a form of Trinity? Why does he needs to seperate himself if he merges then into somethin new, an how is he doing this, and besides if Corellon acts at the same time as corellon, huh, he needs to seperate himself into two godesses, merge them with an alien godess of a foreign world, and the same time some parts of him had to stay Corellon. Puh, thats a mess, isn't it?)
Alediran 08-16-08, 09:08 AM	Why should the people of Faerun know that Sehanine and Selune are one and the same? Why shouldn't there be to set of myths for the same deity? You're not seeing this from a player perspective. They know they are different because both appeared during the Times of Trouble, where gods were forced to only one avatar, aspects didn't have avatars (it's the reason why we think the developers are morons for merging two goddesses that have no relation at all, except for their holy symbols, change Sehanine's symbol and you will find nothing that could link both goddeses).
Rauric 08-16-08, 09:17 AM	One way to explain it was Sehaine got destroyed or was about to and had to merge with Selune to survive. Now when people worship Sehaine they are actually worshipping Selune.
Alediran 08-16-08, 09:22 AM	One way to explain it was Sehaine got destroyed or was about to and had to merge with Selune to survive. Now when people worship Sehaine they are actually worshipping Selune. That would've been a LOT better than saying Sehanine and Selune were the same thing all the time.
Charles Phipps 08-16-08, 09:40 AM	Personally, I tend to assume that if you need a "Out of Character" answer. Selune probably banished Sehanine and absorbed her portfolio, granting the spells now. Corellon being the only one left of the Seldarine. Being Corellon, he's okay with it and promptly has replaced Sehanine with Selune in his bed because he's a player. It's CHAOTIC Good baby.
MerrikCale 08-16-08, 09:45 AM	That would've been a LOT better than saying Sehanine and Selune were the same thing all the time. I agree. That would have been better
Rauric 08-16-08, 10:26 AM	Ok you can steal my idea then. ;)
18DELTA 08-16-08, 12:15 PM	Being Corellon, he's okay with it and promptly has replaced Sehanine with Selune in his bed because he's a player. It's CHAOTIC Good baby. -:thumbsup: 18DELTA :D
Lord Karsus 08-16-08, 12:37 PM	So, does anyone know where I can view the new 4E pantheon? -Check out the 'Forgotten Realms Changes' thread. I have been compiling all of the listed changes to the setting. One way to explain it was Sehaine got destroyed or was about to and had to merge with Selune to survive. Now when people worship Sehaine they are actually worshipping Selune. -That would work, but that's not what the books and designers are telling us. They are telling us that Selūne and Sehanine Moonbow have always been a single entity, and that Sehanine Moonbow was simply Selūne's guise among the Elves. That doesn't work.
Charles Phipps 08-16-08, 12:40 PM	I think that works just fine if we assume that Abeir-Toril is the only planet in the Prime Material. Presumably, the Orcs came from Acheron and the Elvish Spelljammers from Fairyland.
Lord Karsus 08-16-08, 12:47 PM	I think that works just fine if we assume that Abeir-Toril is the only planet in the Prime Material. -If there isn't a mentioned retcon, we all know this isn't right, though.
Rauric 08-16-08, 12:57 PM	-Check out the 'Forgotten Realms Changes' thread. I have been compiling all of the listed changes to the setting. -That would work, but that's not what the books and designers are telling us. They are telling us that Selūne and Sehanine Moonbow have always been a single entity, and that Sehanine Moonbow was simply Selūne's guise among the Elves. That doesn't work. Maybe it does work even with the two Avatar thing. Sehaine could have been a piece of Selune the whole time or perhaps a piece of her that was merged with a real elf so that she could work in the Seldarine. This would explain the two Avatars. The elf may still be an exarch of Selune. Why would Selune do this? Just for the same reason Mystra placed a pice of herself with Midnight, for survival. Selune knew that she might meet her death one day at Shars hand. Perhaps that is why she did it. So if she created Mystra and gave a piece of herself to an elf she would not be as powerful as Shar in deity aspect but she would be more powerful due to allies and her new influence in the elf community.
Lord Karsus 08-16-08, 01:12 PM	Maybe it does work even with the two Avatar thing. Sehaine could have been a piece of Selune the whole time or perhaps a piece of her that was merged with a real elf so that she could work in the Seldarine. This would explain the two Avatars. The elf may still be an exarch of Selune. Why would Selune do this? Just for the same reason Mystra placed a pice of herself with Midnight, for survival. Selune knew that she might meet her death one day at Shars hand. Perhaps that is why she did it. So if she created Mystra and gave a piece of herself to an elf she would not be as powerful as Shar in deity aspect but she would be more powerful due to allies and her new influence in the elf community. -The point of the comment, which still stands, is that sure, there are a whole bunch of situations that we can make up that make it work. I said as much, saying that your situation of Sehanine Moonbow becoming "injured" and needing Selūne to merge with her (or vice versa) works. But, that's not what the books and the designers said. They said that Sehanine Moonbow Sehanine Moonbow was simply Selūne's guise among the Elves, and was never a real deity in Realmspace. That much doesn't work.
Charles Phipps 08-16-08, 01:41 PM	-If there isn't a mentioned retcon, we all know this isn't right, though. Actually, wasn't it a third edition change that made this true?
Leiril 08-16-08, 01:49 PM	Actually, wasn't it a third edition change that made this true? Since when? It is still said in Lost Empires Imaskari started to explore outerworlds and brought slaves in from there.
Lord Karsus 08-16-08, 01:49 PM	Actually, wasn't it a third edition change that made this true? -The third-edition retcon changed things such that the Forgotten Realms were in their own self-contained universe, and not in the expanded multiverse of 2e. That doesn't make Abeir-Toril the only planet, however. The other planets in the solar system were never retconned out, so, while not given any coverage, still exist.
Charles Phipps 08-16-08, 02:00 PM	Yes, but that pretty much means as the same thing. That Selune and the other gods might well be the only ones in the cosmos.
Lord Karsus 08-16-08, 02:07 PM	Yes, but that pretty much means as the same thing. -No. Realmspace is in it's own self-contained universe, as per 3e (though, that the Spellplague is being cited as the reason for the changes in the cosmology for all of D&D contradicts this). This is the retcon. Nothing is mentioned of the other planets orbiting the same sun that Abeir-Toril is orbiting. Because of this, they still exist. -Until a retcon, or a change, or whatever, specifically says that an element of the setting is changed, we have to assume that it is not changed. For example, Rich Baker has stated that there will be no mentions of Avariel in the FRCG. This doesn't mean that the race never existed, or that there was a great catastrophe that destroyed them all. It just means that they still exist, but don't get any mentions.
Charles Phipps 08-16-08, 02:24 PM	Lord Karsus, you aren't refuting me. My argument isn't there's no other planets in the solar system, just that without other worlds with other gods, the gods of Faerun can be the only one in the world. So in other words, you're not making any repudiations of my point. Which is Selune could well have always been Sehanine because there's no elves outside of Toril and the Feywild.
Lord Karsus 08-16-08, 02:31 PM	-Your statement was this: I think that works just fine if we assume that Abeir-Toril is the only planet in the Prime Material. -Abeir-Toril is not the only planet in Realmspace. This is all I am refuting. Nothing more, nothing less. Which is Selune could well have always been Sehanine because there's no elves outside of Toril and the Feywild. -This still doesn't work, for two reasons: 1) The Elven Imperial Navy does a presence in Realmspace, and nothing contradicts that. 2) Due to the evidence during the Time of Troubles, we know that Sehanine Moonbow was indeed a deity, because she had her own avatar. Were she not, she would not have, and the Sehanine Moonbow persona would have been in the Selūne avatar, just like the personas of other deity aspects were in the primary deities' avatars. -As I said to Rauric, creating a situation to explain how the two merge maxes sense. But, this isn't what happened. A retcon was born, and from it, continuity issues arise that cannot be smoothed.
Charles Phipps 08-16-08, 03:05 PM	1. The fact it's its own sphere doesn't mean that it doesn't hail from some place like the Feywild or that they hadn't journeyed from another dimension beforehand. 2. Retroactive retcons are still applicable. Selune's own avatar in Waterdeep was "special" because she was an avatar that had most of her power stripped away from her and her beauty according to the FR comic books.
Lord Karsus 08-16-08, 03:17 PM	1. The fact it's its own sphere doesn't mean that it doesn't hail from some place like the Feywild or that they hadn't journeyed from another dimension beforehand. -I'm not sure how that's relevant to what I said about the existence of the EIN, addressing your point that there are "no elves outside of Toril and the Feywild". 2. Retroactive retcons are still applicable. Selune's own avatar in Waterdeep was "special" because she was an avatar that had most of her power stripped away from her and her beauty according to the FR comic books. -Which means nothing to the problem at hand, since both Sehanine Moonbow and Selūne had two separate avatars, when Ao specifically stated that each deity was to have a single avatar. Like I said, there simply isn't a way to reconcile this particular retcon with the established continuity. It's going to be an incongruity now and forever.
AskaniPsion 08-16-08, 04:46 PM	- since both Sehanine Moonbow and Selūne had two separate avatars, . Lord Karsus , Did Sehanine appear during the Time of Troubles?
Lord Karsus 08-16-08, 05:13 PM	Lord Karsus , Did Sehanine appear during the Time of Troubles? -Yes, all deities did. She was sighted on Evermeet, along with Corellon Larethian.
Fabius Maximus 08-17-08, 09:45 AM	Sure I am, cause I am thinking of the elf perspective, a complete alien race, with it's own history and coming from "over the ocean" with their full evolved culture to a world, where some Natives with their own, complete different culture, lived. As a proud gold elf I would never let go of my ancestors stories, the proud history of my race, wich reaches back to a time when the Seldarine created my ancestors on a much better world and made me a much better being than some underdeveloped and uncivilized humans of a foreign world, ripe to being conquered and colonized.When the elves travelled to Faerun, they still believed in the Faerie gods. That means that their veneration of the Seldarine began after they settled on Faerun. Sure humans had their own stories and "know" something about creator myths, but elfs weren't there in this time, they came fully evolved and with their culture complete developed from outerworld. They hold deer to their traditions, more than humans do, they've never forgotten and lived long enough to remember. They are sometimes rassistic and do not so easy share their culture with others, especially gold elfes, and the ones on Evermeet, they had always a special link to gods, like most human cultures never had. So how should they get anything wrong about their racial history? Because of the Sundering and all that came with it? Yes, now someone can say Sehanine was Selune, Corellon was every other elven god (and made some hollywood show when he talked to them with different personalities). But it is somewhat boring, cause it takes out the special flavor of this culture. And then, when they came from outerworld, why is there in the other universes still a Sehanine, wich is not Selune? And if our Selune is only a native Toril godess, why would she have take influence on beings wich did not exist in her Realm (like elves did thousands of years, before they came to Toril)? Because they started to venerate the moon, just called it differently. The other Sehanine's can be explained by planar exchange. Faerun was something of a planar crossroads for a long time, so having groups of elves travelling farther into the multiverse isn't that much of a stretch. Next Problem, Angharradh, she is allready a merged being, but now its much more complicated (who are the other two, and how many gods, merge into her? Is there now Selune merged with Corellon, who needs to seperate himself into two of his shizophrenia-beings to get merged into a form of Trinity? Why does he needs to seperate himself if he merges then into somethin new, an how is he doing this, and besides if Corellon acts at the same time as corellon, huh, he needs to seperate himself into two godesses, merge them with an alien godess of a foreign world, and the same time some parts of him had to stay Corellon. Puh, thats a mess, isn't it?) Only if you don't think of the gods as all-powerful. They know they are different because both appeared during the Times of Trouble, where gods were forced to only one avatar, aspects didn't have avatars (it's the reason why we think the developers are morons for merging two goddesses that have no relation at all, except for their holy symbols, change Sehanine's symbol and you will find nothing that could link both goddeses). Explain to me: Why would AO allow a disruption of faiths in only allowing one aspect of the various gods an avatar? Btw, Sehanine and Selune are both moon goddesses. That's your relation right there.
Lord Karsus 08-17-08, 12:15 PM	When the elves travelled to Faerun, they still believed in the Faerie gods. That means that their veneration of the Seldarine began after they settled on Faerun. -Untrue. Only the "Green Elves", the first Elves to come to Faerūn, we know for certain that they did not worship the Seldarine, and venerated various Fey spirits and deities. When the survivors of Tintageer came to Faerūn a few thousand years later, they used Elven High Magic to cross the planar boundaries from the Plane of Faerie to the Prime Material Plane. Being that Corellon Larethian "approves" of the casting of Elven High Magic, and taught to to the Elves, the Elves of Tintageer worshiped the Seldarine. And, if memory serve me correctly, the priestess who was the Center of that Circle was a Cleric of Angherradh. Because they started to venerate the moon, just called it differently. -The Elves brought with them Sehanine Moonbow. This is how the "rules" worked in 2e, and while 3e changed the "rules", it continued the notion that Sehanine Moonbow was a deity in the self-contained Forgotten Realms universe. -As I keep on saying, as a retcon, it is 100% impossible to reconcile the new way of things with the old way of things. It's always going to be incongruous, no matter what. Only an explained change as to why, at one point, she was, and why, at another point, she wasn't can garner an explanation that leaves no incongruities. Explain to me: Why would AO allow a disruption of faiths in only allowing one aspect of the various gods an avatar? -Don't know, but those were the rule: Every deity had a single avatar, and within these avatars included the various guises and aspects of the primary deity. Akadi has an aspect known to the Tuigan as Teylas. This was the deity that empowered Yamun Khahan. Akadi received a single avatar during the Time of Troubles. Teylas, being an aspect of Akadi, did not receive any avatars, being Akadi in actuality- Akadi, who already had an avatar. -Again, this is a retcon. It is 100% impossible to reconcile the new way of things with the old way of things. Btw, Sehanine and Selune are both moon goddesses. That's your relation right there. -Here are their respective portfolios: Selūne's Portfolios: Moon, stars, navigation, wanderers, questers, good and neutral Lycanthropes Sehanine Moonbow's Portfolios: Mysticism, dreams, death, journies, transcendence, the moon, the stars, the heavens, Moon Elves.
Fabius Maximus 08-17-08, 12:51 PM	-Untrue. Only the "Green Elves", the first Elves to come to Faerūn, we know for certain that they did not worship the Seldarine, and venerated various Fey spirits and deities. When the survivors of Tintageer came to Faerūn a few thousand years later, they used Elven High Magic to cross the planar boundaries from the Plane of Faerie to the Prime Material Plane. Being that Corellon Larethian "approves" of the casting of Elven High Magic, and taught to to the Elves, the Elves of Tintageer worshiped the Seldarine. And, if memory serve me correctly, the priestess who was the Center of that Circle was a Cleric of Angherradh. -The Elves brought with them Sehanine Moonbow. This is how the "rules" worked in 2e, and while 3e changed the "rules", it continued the notion that Sehanine Moonbow was a deity in the self-contained Forgotten Realms universe. Okay, but explain to me how did they bring along their deities? They couldn't, right? So their belief had to "create" "new" deities like the old ones. Since they attributed Sehanine with the moon, a "new" Sehanine Moonbow was created. When Selune was created later by the humans (despite the saying that she existed since the beginning of time), the already existant moon goddess Sehanine adopted their faith, but over different portfolios, since Selune had different attributes than Sehanine. -Don't know, but those were the rule: Every deity had a single avatar, and within these avatars included the various guises and aspects of the primary deity. Akadi has an aspect known to the Tuigan as Teylas. This was the deity that empowered Yamun Khahan. Akadi received a single avatar during the Time of Troubles. Teylas, being an aspect of Akadi, did not receive any avatars, being Akadi in actuality- Akadi, who already had an avatar. Do we know that the avatars of Selune and Sehanine existed exactly simultaniously? Maybe she was allowed to jump from Evermeet to Waterdeep and back?
Charles Phipps 08-17-08, 12:52 PM	I guess the idea that Sehanine and Selune were always the same isn't such a major divergence for me if we assume a Toril-centric universe, in which case that the Seldarine being imported as an entirely new pantheon is rather odd given there's only a small number of gods in the Multiverse (consisting of Toril's dimension and the surrounding planes) and they all answer to Ao. Do we know that the avatars of Selune and Sehanine existed exactly simultaneously? Maybe she was allowed to jump from Evermeet to Waterdeep and back? Actually, I think only Corellon's presence was confirmed in Evermeet. I do think that with such radical retcons, that the entirety of Realms history should now be considered suspect given so many baseline facts have been changed (in defiance of Karsus' take)
Lord Karsus 08-17-08, 12:59 PM	Okay, but explain to me how did they bring along their deities? They couldn't, right? So their belief had to "create" "new" deities like the old ones. Since they attributed Sehanine with the moon, a "new" Sehanine Moonbow was created. -When the Elven immigrants came to Realmspace, their deities came with them, and forged a presence in Realmspace. Remember, this was in 2e, when deities were multispheric (and the Seldarine is multispheric). When 3e came, and limited the Forgotten Realms to a self-contained universe, this was never addressed, but Sehanine Moonbow was her own independent deity in 3e. When Selune was created later by the humans (despite the saying that she existed since the beginning of time), the already existant moon goddess Sehanine adopted their faith, but over different portfolios, since Selune had different attributes than Sehanine. -Nothing in canon says anything about Sehanine Moonbow adopting the faith of Selūne. If we want to start making up theoreticals, we could say that Jergal adopted the faith of Hoar, in a bid to empower himself. Nothing in canon substantiates that. -I don't see what you're trying to say here, though, because if Sehanine Moonbow adopted the faith of Selūne, then it would appear that Selūne an aspect of Sehanine Moonbow, not the other way around. Do we know that the avatars of Selune and Sehanine existed exactly simultaniously? Maybe she was allowed to jump from Evermeet to Waterdeep and back? -Umm...That doesn't really make much sense. Especially since the avatar of Sehanine Moonbow had a specific appearance (Elven), while Selūne's avatar had a specific appearance (Human, as evidenced by the Forgotten Realms comic books). And, how exactly would have the deity jumped back and forth simultaneously? -Again, nothing you say can rectify this 100%. I'll repeat myself over and over and over and over. Nothing you say can rectify this 100%. That's the nature of retcons that apply retroactively. I'll even bold it: Nothing you say can rectify this 100%. That's the nature of retcons that apply retroactively. Unexplainable incongruities happen. Many exist currently (the purpose of Narbondel in Menzoberranzan, the Dracorage Mythal), and many will continue to be born.
Fabius Maximus 08-17-08, 01:15 PM	-When the Elven immigrants came to Realmspace, their deities came with them, and forged a presence in Realmspace. Remember, this was in 2e, when deities were multispheric (and the Seldarine is multispheric). When 3e came, and limited the Forgotten Realms to a self-contained universe, this was never addressed, but Sehanine Moonbow was her own independent deity in 3e. This is interesting, because it's been always said that Tiamat and Takhisis were not the same deity, despite being the fact that they both were essientially the same. -Nothing in canon says anything about Sehanine Moonbow adopting the faith of Selūne. If we want to start making up theoreticals, we could say that Jergal adopted the faith of Hoar, in a bid to empower himself. Nothing in canon substantiates that. But nothing in canon says the opposite. So it is possible. -I don't see what you're trying to say here, though, because if Sehanine Moonbow adopted the faith of Selūne, then it would appear that Selūne an aspect of Sehanine Moonbow, not the other way around. Yes, but Selune has a bigger following than Sehanine. Her human aspect is stronger. And it makes no difference, if she is both Sehanine and Selune. -Umm...That doesn't really make much sense. Especially since the avatar of Sehanine Moonbow had a specific appearance (Elven), while Selūne's avatar had a specific appearance (Human, as evidenced by the Forgotten Realms comic books). And, how exactly would have the deity jumped back and forth simultaneously? Oh, the gods cannot change the shape and look of their avatars at their whim? How stupid of them. And not jumping back and forth simultaniously. The tavern keeper gets out of the tavern to run some errands, turns around a corner and appears as Sehanine on Evermeet. The avatars were not powerless during the ToT, were they? -Again, nothing you say can rectify this 100%. Maybe not. But 100% is not necessary. 98% is enough. If you find an explanation that is good enough, then the remaining 2% shouldn't bother you.
Lord Karsus 08-17-08, 01:38 PM	This is interesting, because it's been always said that Tiamat and Takhisis were not the same deity, despite being the fact that they both were essientially the same. -I don't know anything about Dragonlance, so I cannot comment. The "rules" of the universe in Dragonlance aren't the same as the rules in the Forgotten Realms, however, just like the rules of the universe aren't the same there as they are here. But nothing in canon says the opposite. So it is possible. -Since canon doesn't say anything about it, it must be true that I am actually the most powerful entity in the Crystal Sphere. When Karsus' Avatar was cast, Karsus and Mystryl became one. When she killed herself, Mystra was born, and the Karse Stone was created. Shar stole the Karse Stone in 1372, and Karsus possessed her and Mystra in turn, being inherently linked to the two. Karsus then used the combined power of Shar and Mystra to possess the servitor deities who served the two. Using all of this divine power, he then possessed Ao. This kind of postulation has no grounds. Neither does any other kind of random postulation. In someone's individual campaign, all of that is fine. When trying to have a scholarly discussion? No, not really. Otherwise, you can have all sorts of wacky explanations for things, as evidenced above. Yes, but Selune has a bigger following than Sehanine. Her human aspect is stronger. And it makes no difference, if she is both Sehanine and Selune. -Selune has a much larger following than Selūne, being that Selūne only has worshipers on Abeir-Toril, and her moon, whereas Sehanine Moonbow has worshipers all across Realmspace, in the Elven Imperial Navy, and if you want to ignore the 3e making the Realmspace it's own self-contained universe, then she also has followers in various other Crystal Spheres. Oh, the gods cannot change the shape and look of their avatars at their whim? How stupid of them. -No, no they could not have. Otherwise, Mask would not have been stuck in the guise of the sword Godsbane. And not jumping back and forth simultaniously. The tavern keeper gets out of the tavern to run some errands, turns around a corner and appears as Sehanine on Evermeet. The avatars were not powerless during the ToT, were they? -No, no they were not. They were diminished, however. That said, the fact that the two had two fixed forms that differed negates the notion you are raising. Maybe not. But 100% is not necessary. 98% is enough. If you find an explanation that is good enough, then the remaining 2% shouldn't bother you. -I'll repeat myself all day long. Nothing can explain a retcon that doesn't cause incongruities that would then invalidate it. Case in point, this discussion. Explanations, such as Sehanine Moonbow was weakened, and was absorbed by Selūne, making them one deity, can be reconciled with previous lore, as new lore is being created to explain things. Retcons that do this cannot be reconciled with previous lore, as no new lore is being created, thus causing incongruities between the old and the new.
Strayth 08-17-08, 01:48 PM	Good. I hate the Seldarine. All elf-like things really. And I love 4e blindly. Everything about 4e is better. Even the books smell better. Oh yes. If you ask me, third edition never happened. I have 4e underwear. If they made 4e prophylactics, I'd use those too. Get rid of all that pesky multiple attacks per round business. Sigh, I guess I ran out of jokes. I won't miss the Seldarine but it does seem like a senseless thing to remove. :(
Charles Phipps 08-17-08, 02:06 PM	Good. I hate the Seldarine. All elf-like things really. And I love 4e blindly. Everything about 4e is better. Even the books smell better. Oh yes. If you ask me, third edition never happened. I have 4e underwear. If they made 4e prophylactics, I'd use those too. Get rid of all that pesky multiple attacks per round business. Sigh, I guess I ran out of jokes. I won't miss the Seldarine but it does seem like a senseless thing to remove. :( Question, are they removed per say or did they become Exarchs?
Lord Karsus 08-17-08, 02:15 PM	Question, are they removed per say or did they become Exarchs? -This is the structure of the 4e Deities and Exarchs. 'Greater Deities' are not included, and members of the Seldarine are bolded: Angharraadh: Wisdom (G) Auril: Winter Bahamut: Justice (G) Berronar Truesilver: Family (LG) Beshaba: Bad Luck Garl Glittergold: Protection (G) Gond: Craft (U) Ilmater: Suffering (G) Loviatar: Pain Luthnic: Caves Meilikki: Forests (G) Sheela Peryroyl: Beauty (G) Sseth: Serpents Talona: Plague Tiamat: Greed Tymora: Good luck (G) Umberlee: Sea Waukeen: Merchants (U) Zehir: Poison Exarchs/ Demigods Abbathor Arvoreen Baervan Wildwanderer Bahgtru Baravar Cloakshadow Berronar Brandobaris Callarduran Smoothhands Clangeddon Silverbeard Cyrrollalee Deep Sashalas Dugmaren Brightmantle Erevan Ilesere Fenmarel Mestarline Fzoul Chembryl: Sevice to Evil Garagos Hoar Hruggek Jergal: Fatalism Labelas Enoreth Lliira Maglubiyet Malar Marthammor Duin Milil Obould: Warriors The Red Knight: Tactics Sharess Shargaas Shevarash Shiallia Siamorphe Solonar Thelandrira Thard Harr Uthgar Valkur Vaprak Vergadain
Leiril 08-17-08, 02:19 PM	I don't know anything about Dragonlance, so I cannot comment. The "rules" of the universe in Dragonlance aren't the same as the rules in the Forgotten Realms, however, just like the rules of the universe aren't the same there as they are here. DL is a self contained universe, where a godess Thakisis is one of the creator gods. She is even the ruler of hell there, what she could not be in a multiverse and certainly not in the FR, where this is Asmos role. So who cares about Thakisis? It's another Setting with its own rules wich contradicts many in FR and the rest and besides this it is still a big question if Wizards will publish anything new 4Ed stuff for it.
UmbralKnight 08-17-08, 02:25 PM	DL is a self contained universe, where a godess Thakisis is one of the creator gods. She is even the ruler of hell there, what she could not be in a multiverse and certainly not in the FR, where this is Asmos role. So who cares about Thakisis? It's another Setting with its own rules wich contradicts many in FR and the rest and besides this it is still a big question if Wizards will publish anything new 4Ed stuff for it. Dragonlance is getting a 4e release, if you believe the nexus. That kindof bums me out. As a major Dragonlance fan, I don't want Wizards to update the setting. They should just let it rest in piece. Its been butchered enough in its history.
GreenKnight 08-17-08, 03:30 PM	What's the deal with this? Angharraadh: Wisdom (G) Auril: Winter Bahamut: Justice (G) Berronar Truesilver: Family (LG) Beshaba: Bad Luck Garl Glittergold: Protection (G) Gond: Craft (U) Ilmater: Suffering (G) Loviatar: Pain Luthnic: Caves Meilikki: Forests (G) Sheela Peryroyl: Beauty (G) Sseth: Serpents Talona: Plague Tiamat: Greed Tymora: Good luck (G) Umberlee: Sea Waukeen: Merchants (U) Zehir: Poison Exarchs/ Demigods Abbathor Arvoreen Baervan Wildwanderer Bahgtru Baravar Cloakshadow Berronar Are there two gods named Berronar, was Berronar erroneously listed as both a Lesser God and a Demigod, or is that an error on the part of the poster?
Fabius Maximus 08-17-08, 06:19 PM	DL is a self contained universe, where a godess Thakisis is one of the creator gods. She is even the ruler of hell there, what she could not be in a multiverse and certainly not in the FR, where this is Asmos role. So who cares about Thakisis? It's another Setting with its own rules wich contradicts many in FR and the rest and besides this it is still a big question if Wizards will publish anything new 4Ed stuff for it. Sorry, but the Krynn Crystal Sphere shared the multiverse with Athas, Toril, Oerth, and all the other settings in 2e. The two goddesses were essientially the same, just as Paladin and Bahamut. But two different entities in the two worlds. This kind of postulation has no grounds. Neither does any other kind of random postulation. In someone's individual campaign, all of that is fine. When trying to have a scholarly discussion? No, not really. Otherwise, you can have all sorts of wacky explanations for things, as evidenced above. I'm just searching for a comprehensible and acceptable explanation, so that the retcon doesn't fall on it's face. -Sehanine has a much larger following than Selūne, being that Selūne only has worshipers on Abeir-Toril, and her moon, whereas Sehanine Moonbow has worshipers all across Realmspace, in the Elven Imperial Navy, and if you want to ignore the 3e making the Realmspace it's own self-contained universe, then she also has followers in various other Crystal Spheres. The followers in the other spheres don't count for Toril. And I doubt that there are more elves in Realmspace than humans. -No, no they could not have. Otherwise, Mask would not have been stuck in the guise of the sword Godsbane. -No, no they were not. They were diminished, however. That said, the fact that the two had two fixed forms that differed negates the notion you are raising. Or AO made an exeption for multi-aspect entities. Explanations, such as Sehanine Moonbow was weakened, and was absorbed by Selūne, making them one deity, can be reconciled with previous lore, as new lore is being created to explain things. Retcons that do this cannot be reconciled with previous lore, as no new lore is being created, thus causing incongruities between the old and the new. But nobody said that Sehanine was absorbed by Selune. The two are jsut two different parts of the same.
Green Elven Vampire 08-17-08, 06:47 PM	Since Rillifane Rallathil isn't on the list, I'm assuming he's a greater deity? Did Baravar Cloakshadow make it?
Lord Karsus 08-17-08, 06:50 PM	The followers in the other spheres don't count for Toril. And I doubt that there are more elves in Realmspace than humans. -Well, like I said, if you don't want to count other Crystal Spheres, there is still the Elven Imperial Navy stationed in Realmspace. The amount of Elves who worship Sehahine Moonbow, I believe, greatly outshines (pun intended) Selūne's followers. Selūne's followers only account for a small percentage of the total Humans (and then, throw in other scattered worshippers). Elves are much more conscious of the divine entities that they worship (their own creations being dependent on Corellon Larethian and Sehanine Moonbow specifically), so there is a much greater worship base, there. Or AO made an exeption for multi-aspect entities. -Or, he didn't. Nothing anywhere says that he did. It's just as likely that Karsus took over the multiverse, as I described above. But nobody said that Sehanine was absorbed by Selune. The two are jsut two different parts of the same. -Yes, I know. If it was said that Selūne absorbed Sehanine Moonbow, we would not be having the conversation that we are having. It is because it is an unexplained retcon that cannot be explained without creating lore inconsistencies that we are engaged in this debate in the first place.
Lord Karsus 08-17-08, 06:51 PM	Are there two gods named Berronar, was Berronar erroneously listed as both a Lesser God and a Demigod, or is that an error on the part of the poster? -I am unsure. It is likely an error on behalf of the poster who typed out that list, but there is the possibility that there is an error in the FRCS book. Since Rillifane Rallathil isn't on the list, I'm assuming he's a greater deity? -Any deity that is not mentioned is assumed to be gone. Did Baravar Cloakshadow make it? -His name is on the Exarch/Demideity list.
Green Elven Vampire 08-17-08, 07:49 PM	-I am unsure. It is likely an error on behalf of the poster who typed out that list, but there is the possibility that there is an error in the FRCS book. -Any deity that is not mentioned is assumed to be gone. -His name is on the Exarch/Demideity list. Rillifane gone? Just like that huh? I guess a elven god who's been around since 1ED Advanced D&D doesn't deserve staying. So I guess he just never existed at all.
18DELTA 08-17-08, 07:51 PM	-Yep he was a figment of your Imagination. :P 18DELTA ;)
Lord Karsus 08-17-08, 07:55 PM	Rillifane gone? Just like that huh? I guess a elven god who's been around since 1ED Advanced D&D doesn't deserve staying. So I guess he just never existed at all. -Just like that...Unless, at some point, there is a DRAGON/DDI article about it, since Rich Baker has already said that for most entities that aren't listed in the book, there is a "secret timeline" that the designers have that explains many a thing.
ywhtptgtfo 08-17-08, 08:06 PM	Rilifane is actually Silvanus. I can't believe you dummies haven't realized this even after 20 years!!! /sarcasm
sfdragon 08-17-08, 09:36 PM	that was something i figured would happen. however, Silvanus is a treant.... A stick in the mud
Lord Karsus 08-17-08, 09:51 PM	-Meh, everything is an aspect of Karsus, and let's leave it at that...:whatsthis
sfdragon 08-17-08, 09:53 PM	-Meh, everything is an aspect of Karsus, and let's leave it at that...:whatsthis :rimshot: :twocents:
Charles Phipps 08-18-08, 12:02 AM	It's not that much of a big deal actually. The real question is "does this make Selune absurdly old and the Sehanine on other worlds" or "did Sehanine come into the Seldarine when Corellon came to Faerun"?
Meldread 08-18-08, 12:28 AM	Right to the heart of this discussion- Toril has been in its own cosmology since 3E. Thus, as far as cannon is concerned there was only one Seldarine pantheon all along, and they were all focused upon everything in the Forgotten Realms universe. Therefore, they had nothing to do with other campaign settings (such as Greyhawk). The deities were completely separate. It was a 3E retcon, thus all information pertaining to such things was actively reconnned out of existence.
Lord Karsus 08-18-08, 12:51 AM	The real question is "does this make Selune absurdly old and the Sehanine on other worlds" or "did Sehanine come into the Seldarine when Corellon came to Faerun"? -The priestess who brought the survivors of Tintageer to Realmspace was a priestess of Angherradh, who is Sehanine Moonbow, Aerdrie Faenya and Hanali Celanil all at once. Thus, with the coming of the Elves of Sharlarion and Occidian came the worship of at least Corellon Larethian and Angherradh, who in turn was Sehanine Moonbow, Aerdrie Faenya and Hanali Celanil.
Meldread 08-18-08, 01:29 AM	I personally think Rich just got it wrong, IMO. It wouldn't be the first time he posted something that later was retconned / turned around. The existence of Angherradh in the 4E setting seems to imply that Sehanine was sucked into her rather than Selune, otherwise Angherradh could not exist. It is possible, though, that Selune quickly moved in to fill the role in Elven society in order to gain power and worshipers. So you can have both things happening at once. ;)
Lord Karsus 08-18-08, 01:33 AM	I personally think Rich just got it wrong, IMO. It wouldn't be the first time he posted something that later was retconned / turned around. -Her not being in the FRCG, coupled with the lack of much information concerning the various deities, exarchs, and so on, doesn't help.
Meldread 08-18-08, 02:11 AM	No but Angherradh is in the FRCG which means, even if Rich is right, it's likely to be retconned later, IMO. It'll be retconned when they realize Angherradh couldn't have formed without Sehanine, and since no lore was published about it… it shouldn't mess up any previous lore that was released.
Lord Karsus 08-18-08, 02:13 AM	No but Angherradh is in the FRCG which means, even if Rich is right, it's likely to be retconned later, IMO. It'll be retconned when they realize Angherradh couldn't have formed without Sehanine... -Odds of this happening? Slim, I say.
Charles Phipps 08-18-08, 05:26 AM	Why can't Selune have been Multi-Spheric?
Meldread 08-18-08, 05:43 AM	If they didn't write something about in the FRCG then there is no reason for them not too. :P They've already retconned a lot of things that they previously said were true...
Charles Phipps 08-18-08, 07:32 AM	I think the earlier "Crisis on Infinite Earths" comparison people dismissed may be more true than people think. Mostly because it's not so much the actual EVENTS that are similiar but the idea that all of history has been changed.
MerrikCale 08-18-08, 09:51 AM	yeah, its a more of retcon then first realized
18DELTA 08-18-08, 10:07 AM	-Maybe they are not worried about previous lore anymore? :P 18DELTA ;)
Green Elven Vampire 08-18-08, 10:52 AM	Well, just because Rillifane and Silvanus are both nature deities doesn't mean they have the same dogma at all. The elves look at nature much differently than humans do and this is represented in Rillifane. Druids, Clerics and Rangers of Rillifane are going to behave, act and react in ways that human followers of Silvanus don't necessarily agree with within the confines of forests, woodlands and wilderness areas. Just my two Zhents!!
MerrikCale 08-18-08, 11:42 AM	Why can't Selune have been Multi-Spheric? don't know
18DELTA 08-18-08, 12:22 PM	-Sorry about your darn luck! :P 18DELTA ;)
Lord Karsus 08-18-08, 12:42 PM	Why can't Selune have been Multi-Spheric? -She's only worshiped in Realmspace, and no sources state her as being multispheric. -Maybe they are not worried about previous lore anymore? :P 18DELTA ;) -This. Especially if there truly aren't any plans to revisit anything in the Forgotten Realms once Eberron is published next year, and another setting in 2010 after that. Makes it a lot easier to shrug off problems, if any exist/arise.
18DELTA 08-18-08, 01:34 PM	-This. Especially if there truly aren't any plans to revisit anything in the Forgotten Realms once Eberron is published next year, and another setting in 2010 after that. Makes it a lot easier to shrug off problems, if any exist/arise. -I know in the Candlekeep Secrets of the Realms thread. They said that Ed was adamant that Elminster was loony for along time before the plague and that people shouldn't listen to him. Could this be them at gencon creating a retcon through Ed that all previous lore was the ravings of a crazy loon and that it doen's matter anymore. They have a Secret FR Timeline now, only those they let look at it will be able to create lore in the novels(Authors mainly) and DDI articles (Designers and Freelance Writers) thus lore will not contridict anymore between Author's, Designer's, and Freelance Writer's. :eek: 18DELTA ;)
Lord Karsus 08-18-08, 01:37 PM	Could this be them at gencon creating a retcon through Ed that all previous lore was the ravings of a crazy loon and that it doen's matter anymore. -No, because 3e instituted the omniscient, universal narrator, meaning that information was precise and 100% correct. Only with an unreliable narrator, like Elminster, for example, could information be incorrect. This is why I do not like the latter approach.
Charles Phipps 08-18-08, 03:00 PM	-She's only worshiped in Realmspace, and no sources state her as being multispheric. If she's always been Sehanine, then she's always been Multispheric. Any argument against that is just going to be wrong.
Stigger 08-18-08, 03:15 PM	Or you could just use the 'as far as we know' card and spout any old thing that comes to mind, continuity be damned. If the designers can do it, I don't see why we shouldn't be able to. :D
Karazhan 08-18-08, 05:47 PM	Do not know if this was already posted but Akadi=Aerdrie Faenya.
GothWulfe 08-18-08, 06:58 PM	And has it occurred to no-one that the reason that they are doing all of this is simply to force us to get rid of all of our old books and have to buy new ones? Machivalian Marketing at its best...<though i suppose that I could have just missed it if someone brought this up as I didn't feel like wading through 25 pages of replies :) > On a side note, what the hell...I'm gone for a few months and come back to all THIS?? My account deleted, a new edition, and NO one happy about it....*sighs* Wulfe
Lord Karsus 08-18-08, 09:25 PM	If she's always been Sehanine, then she's always been Multispheric. Any argument against that is just going to be wrong. -Sehanine Moonbow and Selūne have two separate divine genesis'. On a side note, what the hell...I'm gone for a few months and come back to all THIS?? My account deleted, a new edition, and NO one happy about it....*sighs* -More or less. Welcome back. Does the new 'e' stand for 'Even better than before'? :P
Stigger 08-19-08, 02:29 AM	One day you will love the Retcon... or else.
Charles Phipps 08-19-08, 06:16 AM	-Sehanine Moonbow and Selūne have two separate divine genesis'. Not anymore. It's newspeak. We've always been at war with Eastasia. Selune and Sehanine have always been the same.
Fabius Maximus 08-19-08, 06:17 AM	Yes, they have been. Anything else is just mythology.
Iluvrien 08-19-08, 07:57 AM	Yes, they have been. Anything else is just mythology. Yep, I agree, anything else is just mythology. What you mean you don't spell mythology: r-e-t-c-o-n?
Lord Karsus 08-19-08, 11:05 AM	Not anymore. -It's impossible, or else Sehanine Moonbow and Selūne would not have had two separate avatars during the Time of Troubles. -And, we begin then repeating ourselves again. -Again, this is a retcon. Like all other retcons, it is impossible to reconcile it with the rest of continuity without gaffes. Trying is an exercise in futility. I learned that a while ago, trying to reconcile the actions of the Elves in weaving the Dracorage Mythal, another retcon.
Green Elven Vampire 08-19-08, 12:23 PM	-It's impossible, or else Sehanine Moonbow and Selūne would not have had two separate avatars during the Time of Troubles. -And, we begin then repeating ourselves again. -Again, this is a retcon. Like all other retcons, it is impossible to reconcile it with the rest of continuity without gaffes. Trying is an exercise in futility. I learned that a while ago, trying to reconcile the actions of the Elves in weaving the Dracorage Mythal, another retcon. And I'm sure there will be a retcon on the retcon for lack of a better retcon!!
Lord Karsus 08-19-08, 12:32 PM	And I'm sure there will be a retcon on the retcon for lack of a better retcon!! -Retcon is a way of life. Embrace it. Embrace Retcon. -Retcon for president. -Retcons don't kill people. People kill people. -Don't drink and retcon. -Retcon saves.
Charles Phipps 08-19-08, 05:09 PM	-It's impossible, or else Sehanine Moonbow and Selūne would not have had two separate avatars during the Time of Troubles. -And, we begin then repeating ourselves again. -Again, this is a retcon. Like all other retcons, it is impossible to reconcile it with the rest of continuity without gaffes. Trying is an exercise in futility. I learned that a while ago, trying to reconcile the actions of the Elves in weaving the Dracorage Mythal, another retcon. Well that's what Retcons are but that doesn't mean that the new material can't be made to make sense. Especially when dealing with a fantasy universe's non-physics, you can just say Selune had two Avatars.
msatran 08-19-08, 05:34 PM	I really don't understand why the Avariel would devise a ritual that made dragons go insane, but only every so oftne. If the DWARVES did it and just fled underground and waited for the chaos to stop, that would have made more sense. The truth is, the people who designed this stuff have poor storytelling skills and don't understand how to take things and make them logical. That's really what the problem is. "Well, it's magic. It doesn't need to be consistent or logical." But you see, for large numbers of us, it does.
Lord Karsus 08-19-08, 06:39 PM	Well that's what Retcons are but that doesn't mean that the new material can't be made to make sense. -And, as demonstrated, with this particular retcon, there aren't any examples of hypothetical situations that make sense within the set context of how things were, and how things are now, so far. Creating new material to explain a change also takes away the retcon denotation, and makes the change an explained change. Especially when dealing with a fantasy universe's non-physics, you can just say Selune had two Avatars. -Again, during the Time of Troubles, each deity was allowed only 1. I really don't understand why the Avariel would devise a ritual that made dragons go insane, but only every so oftne. -The Avariel did not devise or cast the spell. Their only function was that, when the Dragons were attacking the northern citadel, years and years of being picked on manifested itself as a dire and great anger, where they appeared enmasse and beat the crap out of the Dragons (being killed in large numbers, while doing so), allowing the Selu'Taar to complete the Mythal laying ceremony. -But, that's not the crux of problem with that retcon. The problem stems from: A) The Elves being blissfully unaware of it, even thought Elves are close with the Weave, and can sense things like magical fields of magic. B) Reconciling this is the Elven CG alignment, and the fact that the Elves were, at the same exact time, training Dragons to serve as their steeds and companions, while damning them.
Charles Phipps 08-19-08, 10:23 PM	-Again, during the Time of Troubles, each deity was allowed only 1. It never said that she wasn't the exception. we now have evidence she was. Also Gruumsh.
Lord Karsus 08-19-08, 11:13 PM	It never said that she wasn't the exception. -And, it never said she was an exception, either. Also Gruumsh, also Aerdrie Fenya, also Hanali Celanil, Ubtao, everyone else...
Stigger 08-20-08, 02:28 AM	Just say that they all used epic spells with the Shadow seed to create 'false' avatars of their various personas and be happy... which would also explain why Shar was able to steal the show, with all that shadow magic flying around from divine sources. See, nice, neat package that glorifies Shar and Shadows in the process. ;)
Selvarin 08-20-08, 02:41 AM	Two points... 1) Silvanus did appear as a green (or wood) elf on occasion. Thus personally I don't mind if someone says that it was merely an aspect or guise for Silvanus. Besides, more of the core 'elveness' should go back to Corellon. 2) Sehahine Moonbow's first appearance was in the 2e Monster Mythologies (which was generic AD&D, not FR). Personally I like her but I can see where she doesn't need to be there--again, due to redundancy. However, I'd just as soon have tossed Anga-whatever-her-name is and reshaped Sehahine as a goddess of mystic wisdom, etc...She'd have the name and some of her original power without having to be another moon goddess. I just don't care for Anga-whoever, even though she was created for the Realms. In fact...maybe just consider Anga-whatsit the name they call Sehahine when in her 'mystic warrior' mode.
Rauric 08-20-08, 08:05 AM	"But you see, for large numbers of us, it does." This is just an opinion. In my game store I would say 1/20 gamers want logic in their games. See that was just an opinion as well, it has no real factual study to back it up. ;)
Charles Phipps 08-20-08, 09:07 AM	-And, it never said she was an exception, either. Also Gruumsh, also Aerdrie Fenya, also Hanali Celanil, Ubtao, everyone else... Well now it is. :D
Lord Karsus 08-20-08, 02:49 PM	Well now it is. :D -Nothing states anywhere that there were exceptions allotted.
Charles Phipps 08-20-08, 06:12 PM	Nothing says they weren't and with the retcon, it would have to be the case.
Selvarin 08-20-08, 06:49 PM	Well, just because Rillifane and Silvanus are both nature deities doesn't mean they have the same dogma at all. The elves look at nature much differently than humans do and this is represented in Rillifane. Druids, Clerics and Rangers of Rillifane are going to behave, act and react in ways that human followers of Silvanus don't necessarily agree with within the confines of forests, woodlands and wilderness areas. Just my two Zhents!! Or you could just say Silvanus is the human name for Rillifane...
Lord Karsus 08-20-08, 07:24 PM	Nothing says they weren't and with the retcon, it would have to be the case. -Right, this would have to be the case, to make what you're proposing work. Nothing says anywhere that that was the case, however.
Charles Phipps 08-20-08, 09:42 PM	The fact Selune and Sehanine are the same and always have been says that.
Lord Karsus 08-20-08, 10:43 PM	The fact Selune and Sehanine are the same and always have been says that. -It's impossible. I've established that many times. Honestly, in my opinion, you aren't making any headway.
Rauric 08-20-08, 10:47 PM	Who's on first...
Lord Karsus 08-20-08, 10:59 PM	-On the internet, that really doesn't work. It's a lot easier seeing the difference between "Who." and "Who?" in type. :P
Stigger 08-21-08, 01:53 AM	Nothing is impossible, only highly improbable. As to the ToT... well, it was revealed that Shar was actually the victor (not that it was supposed to be contest as far as I know) of that little debacle, so... secrets and all that... Shadow stuff... etcetera. You can rationalize it in some manner, if you swallow the idea that the old lore is no longer valid. So suck it up, and get with the Retcon. ;)
Lord Karsus 08-21-08, 08:32 PM	So suck it up, and get with the Retcon. ;) -Nope. I never support unexplained retcons. Explained retcons are fine, but not unexplained ones.
GothWulfe 08-22-08, 10:05 PM	-More or less. Welcome back. Does the new 'e' stand for 'Even better than before'? :P Yep..you figured it out. :) Now i have to get my grubby paws on all the 4th ed stuff and memorize it so that I can harass the forums once more. :P
Lord Karsus 08-22-08, 10:13 PM	Yep..you figured it out. :) Now i have to get my grubby paws on all the 4th ed stuff and memorize it so that I can harass the forums once more. :P -So, it could also be 'Eviler', then. :devil:
GothWulfe 08-22-08, 10:14 PM	Just say that they all used epic spells with the Shadow seed to create 'false' avatars of their various personas and be happy... which would also explain why Shar was able to steal the show, with all that shadow magic flying around from divine sources. See, nice, neat package that glorifies Shar and Shadows in the process. ;) *winces and pulls out his longsword* sorry..but you have to die now. :D
GothWulfe 08-22-08, 10:15 PM	-So, it could also be 'Eviler', then. :devil: Who? Me? I am a shining paragon of goodness and logix..you know that. *grins innocently*
GothWulfe 08-22-08, 10:19 PM	Nothing is impossible, only highly improbable. As to the ToT... well, it was revealed that Shar was actually the victor (not that it was supposed to be contest as far as I know) of that little debacle, so... secrets and all that... Shadow stuff... etcetera. You can rationalize it in some manner, if you swallow the idea that the old lore is no longer valid. So suck it up, and get with the Retcon. ;) Yep...defiantly a death sentence...face it, Shar sucks :)
AskaniPsion 08-22-08, 10:38 PM	I don't know why they kept Angharradh around instead of Sehanine. The moon aspect of Sehanine was just one part of her. She was also a goddess of the sky, stars, mystics and illusions. Sehanine was also part of Angharradh. They could have easily made the FR Sehanine into the new 4E Core Sehanine and just take the moon aspect away from her and give it to Selune. Sehanine could have given the moon aspect to help strengethen Selune. Why keep Angharradh and not Sehanine?? Just doesn't make sense. I am just considering Angharradh to be really Sehanine.
Charles Phipps 08-22-08, 10:47 PM	I assume because the Goddess of the Unpronouncable (how DO you pronounce that, anyway?) is meant to be Corellon's equal while Sehanine is a much smaller figure in FR.
AskaniPsion 08-22-08, 10:58 PM	I assume because the Goddess of the Unpronouncable (how DO you pronounce that, anyway?) is meant to be Corellon's equal while Sehanine is a much smaller figure in FR. (ON-gahr-rath) Terrible name.....:blink:
Lord Karsus 08-22-08, 11:12 PM	Who? Me? I am a shining paragon of goodness and logix..you know that. *grins innocently* -Just sayin'... I assume because the Goddess of the Unpronouncable (how DO you pronounce that, anyway?) is meant to be Corellon's equal while Sehanine is a much smaller figure in FR. -Angharradh (Pronounced On-garh-rath) -Personally, I always pronounce it Anger-rod. -And note that Sun Elves do not believe in the Angharradh myth, and as such, Sehanine Moonbow occupies her position in their myths.
sfdragon 08-22-08, 11:29 PM	never used Angharradh for any of my characters. anyway, and I like the moon elves.... always perfered Sehanine, easier to pronounce and easier to spell. this fluff that she and selune was designed on a bar, developed in the woodshed and playtested by mad men
GothWulfe 08-22-08, 11:47 PM	-Just sayin'... Now its not my fault that Tymora has a good wine cellar and I go on a rant from time to time after visiting her, is it? *chuckle*
Therise 08-23-08, 12:44 AM	-And note that Sun Elves do not believe in the Angharradh myth, and as such, Sehanine Moonbow occupies her position in their myths. Really? I didn't know that. That's interesting.
Stigger 08-23-08, 02:34 AM	Yep...defiantly a death sentence...face it, Shar sucks :) Indeed she does... well, she didn't used to prior to the 3.0/3.5e "Glory Of Shar Special Edition" material started rolling out, but that's neither here nor there... the point is, that she's the current "super-cool and sick" deity on the block, along with her boy-toy, Cyric, so everything they've done needs to be rationalized for the glory and favor of those two to ulimately triumph so that we can more easily accept their "super-cool sickness", or whatever. So, sniff the hallucinagenic glue they stuck in the 4e FRCG's binding, and get with that program... :P :D
SmartPaladin 08-23-08, 03:44 AM	Indeed she does... well, she didn't used to prior to the 3.0/3.5e "Glory Of Shar Special Edition" material started rolling out, but that's neither here nor there... the point is, that she's the current "super-cool and sick" deity on the block, along with her boy-toy, Cyric, so everything they've done needs to be rationalized for the glory and favor of those two to ulimately triumph so that we can more easily accept their "super-cool sickness", or whatever. So, sniff the hallucinagenic glue they stuck in the 4e FRCG's binding, and get with that program... :P :D I would, but not only did they make Hoar evil, they made him into Bane's "pet"... :nonono:
Charles Phipps 08-23-08, 08:20 AM	Disturbingly, I've used Angharradh in my games. However, it was only when I was desperate for ideas for an FR game and near burn out. She's the Goddess of the Three Sacred Lights of the Elves. http://images.cafepress.com/image/7575878_400x400.jpg
Suin Bahhar 08-23-08, 09:52 AM	I would, but not only did they make Hoar evil, they made him into Bane's "pet"... :nonono:Not so sure about that. Sure he resides on Banehold, but he did so before the 15th century realms as well. Hoars agents have a much easier job in Bane-controlled holdings, as bloodfeuds and tyranny allow the practise of vengeance more readily. Angharradh can easiliy be devided into the three former godesses, so in a sense the seldarine has lost no members except for the dark elven ones and Fenmaril?
Lord Karsus 08-23-08, 01:14 PM	Really? I didn't know that. That's interesting. -Yup. It's a dirty, Moon Elven myth.
AskaniPsion 08-23-08, 01:58 PM	Angharradh can easiliy be devided into the three former godesses, so in a sense the seldarine has lost no members except for the dark elven ones and Fenmaril? I don't know why they just didn't keep Sehanine instead of Angharradh. The moon aspect is hust one of her many aspects - if anything the stars, night skies and mysteries were her primary aspects. Sehanine is a much better name than the awful name Angharradh which doesn't even sound like an elven name. In my campaign, she will be called Sehanine so those pesky humans can still have their "moon" goddess. :mad:
Therise 08-23-08, 02:08 PM	-Yup. It's a dirty, Moon Elven myth. At least it's not one from those extremely backwards, grubby wild elves. ;)
Lord Karsus 08-23-08, 03:12 PM	At least it's not one from those extremely backwards, grubby wild elves. ;) -They're the worst. They don't even know if they're coming or going, with their worship of the Seldarine, and of the Seelie Court, and of nature spirits...
SmartPaladin 08-25-08, 01:26 AM	Not so sure about that. Sure he resides on Banehold, but he did so before the 15th century realms as well. Hoars agents have a much easier job in Bane-controlled holdings, as bloodfeuds and tyranny allow the practise of vengeance more readily. Angharradh can easiliy be devided into the three former godesses, so in a sense the seldarine has lost no members except for the dark elven ones and Fenmaril? Yeah, Vengeance against the tyrants, as well as anyone else foolish enough to cross someone while said Agent was handy. *sighs* Hoar should have keep "Retribution", and worked more as a god of balance, a re-payer of debts. *sighs* I just wanna keep my Paladin's of Hoar... And I've always been a sucker for remaining close to the "main" FR. Ah well, maybe I can start a heresy in the faith of Hoar, and bring back the name Assuran, deity of Retribution. Grant, why Hoar is now "Evil" is beyond me... It's the same song and dance for him that it's always been! And yes, I'm ranting. Sue me.
Therise 08-25-08, 01:38 AM	-They're the worst. They don't even know if they're coming or going, with their worship of the Seldarine, and of the Seelie Court, and of nature spirits... And all that free-form dancing. :yuck:
Lord Karsus 08-25-08, 11:51 AM	-And modern art. :rolleyes:
Suin Bahhar 08-25-08, 01:43 PM	Yeah, Vengeance against the tyrants, as well as anyone else foolish enough to cross someone while said Agent was handy. *sighs* Hoar should have keep "Retribution", and worked more as a god of balance, a re-payer of debts. *sighs* I just wanna keep my Paladin's of Hoar... And I've always been a sucker for remaining close to the "main" FR. Ah well, maybe I can start a heresy in the faith of Hoar, and bring back the name Assuran, deity of Retribution. Grant, why Hoar is now "Evil" is beyond me... It's the same song and dance for him that it's always been! And yes, I'm ranting. Sue me.Yeah, I dont think labeling him evil is fair to Hoar aswell, he should have been unaligned at least. But his followers can easily be cajoled into the slippery slope of bloody vengeance. I tried playing a rogue following Hoar on a roleplaying server of NWN. He and the ones he got an atchment to were constantly harrassed by Sharran assassins. His fall to evil was slow but sure as his loved ones fell one by one, while Tyrrans faithfull did nothing to stop the Sharrans in their own game, eroding the rogues faith in Cormyrian law. He eventually went on a killing spree himself, condeming himself to the Sharrans own methods, and forcing the Tyrrans to open the hunt on him.
Barthalas 08-25-08, 02:43 PM	I'm I the only one who doesn't see the Seldarine as gone? By my count the following are still there: Angharradh (though this one has me a bit confused since supposedly 2/3 or her have been retcon'd into other aspects of other deities) Corellon Larethian Deep Sashelas Erevan Ilesere Fenmarel Mestarine Labelas Enoreth Shevarash Solonor Thelandira So missing a few former members? Yes. Some have diminished in deific (is that even a word?)power? Yes. But still very much around IMHO. Also, didn't the Corellon entry in the book mention that he was first of the Seldarine? I don't have me book here at work but I'm pretty sure it did.
Charles Phipps 08-25-08, 03:09 PM	Yes, I was pleasantly surprised to find a lot more survived than I expected.
Lord Karsus 08-25-08, 03:24 PM	I'm I the only one who doesn't see the Seldarine as gone? ... So missing a few former members? Yes. -Is a pizza still a pizza when you take off the cheese, sauce, and cut it up into squares?
Serphet 08-25-08, 03:25 PM	-Is a pizza still a pizza when you take off the cheese, sauce, and cut it up into squares? to combat your analogy i give you : Depends on who you're asking. edited for spelling
Barthalas 08-25-08, 03:26 PM	-Is a pizza still a pizza when you take off the cheese, sauce, and cut it up into squares? That's a bit dramatic. But to keep with your analogy, a pizza is still a pizza if you use less cheese and a weaker tasting sauce, regardless of how you cut it up. May not be as good as the original pizza but it IS still a pizza.
Lord Karsus 08-25-08, 03:40 PM	to combat your analogy i give you : Depends on who you're asking. edited for spelling -Well, I'm asking you, then. That's a bit dramatic. But to keep with your analogy, a pizza is still a pizza if you use less cheese and a weaker tasting sauce, regardless of how you cut it up. -Our pizza isn't being "weakened". It's having elements inherent to it removed. The Seladrine is a proper noun, consisting of X, Y, and Z, and having specific elements. Once X, Y, or Z are removed, and specific elements are changed, what you have is an entity that does not match the proper noun you started with.
Serphet 08-25-08, 03:49 PM	-Well, I'm asking you, then. Then I would say that your pizza is rather nasty, and your Seldarine, a bit more compact. But thats not fair; what I'm saying is that whether it's good or bad is a matter of opinion, and fixing it to your liking is a very simple feat that makes me wonder why this discussion is still going on. In truth "The Seldarine proper noun doesn't mean the specific gods, it means the group of gods. from wikipedia - The Seldarine (Tel'Seldarine in the elvish language) is the name of the pantheon of the good and neutral elven gods in many campaign settings for the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game. The name roughly translates as "the fellowship of brothers and sisters of the wood." The Seldarine are led by the greater deity Corellon Larethian. Their home plane is Arvandor (part of Arborea/Mount Olympus). 4e realms still meets this requirement and thus it is still 'The Seldarine', but from here the discussion simply turns to 'I hate it', or more tactful synonyms.
Barthalas 08-25-08, 03:54 PM	Our pizza isn't being "weakened". It's having elements inherent to it removed. The Seladrine is a proper noun, consisting of X, Y, and Z, and having specific elements. Once X, Y, or Z are removed, and specific elements are changed, what you have is an entity that does not match the proper noun you started with. I disagree with that logic. The original Seladrine (as put forth in Faith and Pantheons) consisted of 9 members in 3.x (if you count Angharradh in her combined form.) In 4e it has 8 members (and potentially the same 9 if you take in to account that they do not say what happened to Rillifane Rallathil, who may still be around). So while I absolutely agree that it is not the same, that does not mean it has ceased to exist. It may not have the same number of members or be as powerful as a group, but it is far from gone IMHO. Pantheon's change, it's been like that for quite a while before 4e. Just because they lose members or some members get "demoted" in power should not invalidate them as a whole. So, if your argument is that it is not EXACTLY around as before, then I agree with you. If your argument is that because it is no longer EXACTLY as it was before, then it no longer exists I'll have to disagree.
Lord Karsus 08-25-08, 04:09 PM	In truth "The Seldarine proper noun doesn't mean the specific gods, it means the group of gods. 4e realms still meets this requirement and thus it is still 'The Seldarine', but from here the discussion simply turns to 'I hate it', or more tactful synonyms. -By the logic, if Malar, Umberlee, Talos, Drizzt Shevarash, and Valkur "kicked out" the members of the Seldarine, and used the name of the pantheon for themselves, everything would be kosher? So, if your argument is that it is not EXACTLY around as before, then I agree with you. If your argument is that because it is no longer EXACTLY as it was before, then it no longer exists I'll have to disagree. -The above applies here as well. Would such a group mean that the Seldarine still exists?
Serphet 08-25-08, 04:12 PM	It would be wonky for sure, because those aren't "good and neutral elven gods"... but thats not the situation at all.
Charles Phipps 08-25-08, 04:15 PM	To be fair, I'm not sure that Hanelli and Sune were ever different in any appreciable way anyway.
Lord Karsus 08-25-08, 04:28 PM	It would be wonky for sure, because those aren't "good and neutral elven gods"... but thats not the situation at all. -So, let's throw out the evil ones. Drizzt, Valkur, Shevarash, Garl Glittergold, and Selūne are all worshipped by Good and Neutral Elves. Does this the Seldarine make? To be fair, I'm not sure that Hanelli and Sune were ever different in any appreciable way anyway. -Be that as it may, there's plenty of overlap everywhere.
Serphet 08-25-08, 04:34 PM	-So, let's throw out the evil ones. Drizzt, Valkur, Shevarash, Garl Glittergold, and Selūne are all worshipped by Good and Neutral Elves. Does this the Seldarine make? No, they are good and neutral... but they ain't elven.... also you have to enjoy happy fun time (elf style) with the big C.
Barthalas 08-25-08, 04:38 PM	-By the logic, if Malar, Umberlee, Talos, Drizzt Shevarash, and Valkur "kicked out" the members of the Seldarine, and used the name of the pantheon for themselves, everything would be kosher? -The above applies here as well. Would such a group mean that the Seldarine still exists? But that's not what happened in this instance. No members where replaced by other deities, nor where the majority of the original members removed. So to answer your question, yes, IF those gods (or god to be in Drizzt's case) kicked out ALL the members and started calling themselves the Seldaine, then I would agree it was not longer the true Seldarine but that is so far from what happened here... By my count, the only change to the Seldarine is the loss of the "three that where one" as individual aspects (until they tell me what happened to Rillifane) but since the "one" is still there that should not invalidate the whole shebang IMHO....
SmartPaladin 08-26-08, 12:51 AM	Yeah, I dont think labeling him evil is fair to Hoar aswell, he should have been unaligned at least. But his followers can easily be cajoled into the slippery slope of bloody vengeance. Yes, but his Paladin's, who are very few, and even farther in between I might add, are SoL. Unless they all follow "The Heresy of Assuran" and act more Retribution than Vengeance/Revenge. I tried playing a rogue following Hoar on a roleplaying server of NWN. He and the ones he got an atchment to were constantly harrassed by Sharran assassins. His fall to evil was slow but sure as his loved ones fell one by one, while Tyrrans faithfull did nothing to stop the Sharrans in their own game, eroding the rogues faith in Cormyrian law. He eventually went on a killing spree himself, condeming himself to the Sharrans own methods, and forcing the Tyrrans to open the hunt on him. Stupid Tyrrans... Wasn't there one who should have been at least close enough to witness any of the Sharrans acts? :nonono: -By the logic, if Malar, Umberlee, Talos, Drizzt Shevarash, and Valkur "kicked out" the members of the Seldarine, and used the name of the pantheon for themselves, everything would be kosher? Drizzt Shevarash? Drizzt? :confused:
Suin Bahhar 08-26-08, 10:40 AM	The Sharrans were a real problem for city of Arabel (best FR roleplay server there is). It didn't help the sharrans where actually backed by a powerfull mysterious sorcerer who was undetainable by the local militia. The Sharrans were being protected by the War Wizards themselves. My character, the ex-aurilian Haston in training by a local doombringer, managed to capture and hand over a Sharran to the local militia (he should have taken matters in his own hands then and there and slain the tiefling monster), but the War Wizards took the tiefling for questioning and set the beast free after that "claiming a beast like that could have its uses" (turned out they had him gueased to reveal his masters and the loation of the mysterious sorcerer at a future meeting). Not long after that the tiefling struck down the romantic interest of my Hoarite rogue, pushing the unfortunate soul towards the hunt on Sharrans within the sewers of Arabel (very bad idea) to salvage her corpse for raising. During this hunt he got bitten by a Sharran vampire and had to endure a slow proces of turning into vampire. His urges for blood became too strong to contain and eventually the Tyrrans got wind of his infection and opened a sewerwide hunt on Haston. His allies within the militia (also Hoarites) where murdered by internal strife involving some followers of Beshaba and local bandits and the one Tyrran who listened to Haston was a crippled paladin who was scorned by the Arabellans for his relationship with a halforc, and he didn't have any weight in their monthly meetings. Hastons only remaining choice was to embrace vampirism and escape even deeper into Sharran territory. The Tyrrans only found darkness when they went crusading through the sewers and the Sharrans where careful to avoid contact with those loud groups. Haston lost all faith in them as their methods were ineffective to achieve the personal justice he needed and the fall to vigilantism and vampirism slowly twisted his views of the essential right for vengeance of the common man. Assasins striking at a community containing Hoarites will topple those doombringers into evil by cunning choice of targets selected for murder.
SmartPaladin 08-27-08, 12:11 AM	The Sharrans were a real problem for city of Arabel (best FR roleplay server there is). It didn't help the sharrans where actually backed by a powerfull mysterious sorcerer who was undetainable by the local militia. The Sharrans were being protected by the War Wizards themselves. My character, the ex-aurilian Haston in training by a local doombringer, managed to capture and hand over a Sharran to the local militia (he should have taken matters in his own hands then and there and slain the tiefling monster), but the War Wizards took the tiefling for questioning and set the beast free after that "claiming a beast like that could have its uses" (turned out they had him gueased to reveal his masters and the loation of the mysterious sorcerer at a future meeting). Not long after that the tiefling struck down the romantic interest of my Hoarite rogue, pushing the unfortunate soul towards the hunt on Sharrans within the sewers of Arabel (very bad idea) to salvage her corpse for raising. During this hunt he got bitten by a Sharran vampire and had to endure a slow proces of turning into vampire. His urges for blood became too strong to contain and eventually the Tyrrans got wind of his infection and opened a sewerwide hunt on Haston. His allies within the militia (also Hoarites) where murdered by internal strife involving some followers of Beshaba and local bandits and the one Tyrran who listened to Haston was a crippled paladin who was scorned by the Arabellans for his relationship with a halforc, and he didn't have any weight in their monthly meetings. Hastons only remaining choice was to embrace vampirism and escape even deeper into Sharran territory. The Tyrrans only found darkness when they went crusading through the sewers and the Sharrans where careful to avoid contact with those loud groups. Haston lost all faith in them as their methods were ineffective to achieve the personal justice he needed and the fall to vigilantism and vampirism slowly twisted his views of the essential right for vengeance of the common man. Assasins striking at a community containing Hoarites will topple those doombringers into evil by cunning choice of targets selected for murder. Wow... That sucks, but why didn't Your Hoarite Vamp just feed on the wicked? I seem to recall Morbius doing just that after Ghost Rider offered to spare him from his fate at the Rider's hand, for Morbius suffered guilt over each of his feedings.
Deama 08-27-08, 06:48 AM	Ok I am pretty sure by now someone already mentioned this but I am not gonna sit her and read through 28 pages to see if they have but of the Seldarine only 4 deities are absent, now I haven't read any recent novels but what I gather from the FRCG Hanali and Aerdrie gave there powers to Sehanine to basically make the trine goddess Angharradh a predominant incarnation now there is nothing to say that they can not revert in the future but seeing as Angharradh exists and those 3 do not there is no real change to the elven Seldarine in there aspect just that instead of 3 deities combining there powers as a 4th they are now that 4th, as to the last elven deity that is missing Rillifane Rallathil, I have no clue what may have happened to him. As to sune possing as Hanali in my opinion that is all she is doing posing. Other then those for Corellon, Deep Sashelas, Erevan, Fenmarel, Labelas, Shevarash, and Solonor are all still intact and seeing as the term lesser deity no longer exists they are what falls in it's place, Exarchs with the exception of Corellon(Greater God) and his consort Angharradh(God) In Closing none of the history lore of the Seldarine has been altered in fact only what happens from the spellplague on needs to be learned. Trust none:elf:
Mystrasdance 08-27-08, 10:00 AM	Ok I am pretty sure by now someone already mentioned this but I am not gonna sit her and read through 28 pages to see if they have but of the Seldarine only 4 deities are absent, now I haven't read any recent novels but what I gather from the FRCG Hanali and Aerdrie gave there powers to Sehanine to basically make the trine goddess Angharradh a predominant incarnation now there is nothing to say that they can not revert in the future but seeing as Angharradh exists and those 3 do not there is no real change to the elven Seldarine in there aspect just that instead of 3 deities combining there powers as a 4th they are now that 4th, as to the last elven deity that is missing Rillifane Rallathil, I have no clue what may have happened to him. As to sune possing as Hanali in my opinion that is all she is doing posing. Other then those for Corellon, Deep Sashelas, Erevan, Fenmarel, Labelas, Shevarash, and Solonor are all still intact and seeing as the term lesser deity no longer exists they are what falls in it's place, Exarchs with the exception of Corellon(Greater God) and his consort Angharradh(God) Trust none:elf: I totally have to agree here they didnt have to slap us and every elf in the face by changing their once elven gods into human ones they had a perfectly legit way to explain the condensing of the 3 into Angharradh she was a favorite of mine anyway and i totally would have been able to swallow that. Would i have been upset that Sehanine my all time favorite was no longer an individual? sure! But not nearly as much as this load of crap they are trying to feed me now. Elves are a linked community! They are not humans who drift alone in life and think any god is anything. They are as linked to their gods as they are to each other in the Realms. Can u honestly tell me that now a cleric of Hanali and Sehanine now goes to the Gates of the Moon and those that worship Aerdrie go to the elemental Chaos instead of Arvandor? REALLY? REALLY? So WoTC u seriously need to fix this crap i know i can home brew it in my own world(and u better believe i will) but the main point is now there will be no awsome novels with the Elven gods just the petty human ones using tricks to try and be one which is totally and seriously WRONG
Barthalas 08-27-08, 10:25 AM	perfectly legit way to explain the condensing of the 3 into Angharradh You know I really like this idea and it just became what happened to the 3 "missing" elven gods in the game I DM for. I'll basically rule that they knew they weren't strong enough on their own to survive the turmoil of the spellplague and decided to "permanently" merge into Angharradh.
Mystrasdance 08-27-08, 12:49 PM	You know I really like this idea and it just became what happened to the 3 "missing" elven gods in the game I DM for. I'll basically rule that they knew they weren't strong enough on their own to survive the turmoil of the spellplague and decided to "permanently" merge into Angharradh. See how simple that was WoTC we figured it out so why couldnt u? i personally have this nagging suspicion that some WoTC big wigs were sitting around and said to each other "Lets see how much of a snit we can work the people who buy our stuff into. Lets throw out a perfectly legit thing to do with these three turn then human and watch them go up in flames. Then read their posts and laugh all the way to the bank as they buy this garbage" :evillaugh I dont know why i'm so mad about this i understand D&D changes but the Elves of Faerun were my favorite and i feel like i been kicked in a bad place when i read all this stuff in the FRCS about them. It was bad anough that all the subraces got merged. Turning their gods human went too far for me, especially when they put Angharradh in the FRCS. So where did she come from? Is she shaved off peices of the human gods? Is she actually an ELF? Something so easy went so wrong ><
AskaniPsion 08-27-08, 07:21 PM	You know I really like this idea and it just became what happened to the 3 "missing" elven gods in the game I DM for. I'll basically rule that they knew they weren't strong enough on their own to survive the turmoil of the spellplague and decided to "permanently" merge into Angharradh. The elves have always historically been closed their gods. I really don't see how Corellon would allow human gods to pose as elven gods.....it would be like he was lying to the elves. The Seldarine have always been truthful to the People in the past......if I was an elf I would be insulted about these "imposter" gods. It would have made alot more sense if those 3 goddesses merged to become Angharradh or have Sehanine absorb their divine energy to become Angharradh permanently. Until I see otherwise in a canon book, Sehanine = Angharradh.
Charles Phipps 08-27-08, 07:38 PM	The elves have always historically been closed their gods. I really don't see how Corellon would allow human gods to pose as elven gods.....it would be like he was lying to the elves. The Seldarine have always been truthful to the People in the past......if I was an elf I would be insulted about these "imposter" gods Corellon also has at least one canonical Orc Cleric. I think its always been canon that Corellon cares almost nothing about race and finds the whole obsession with blood purity that elves have to be rather stupid. It's one of Corellon's most endearing qualities to me. Thus the idea of "non-Elf Gods" is moronic to him because the Seldarine is the Brotherhood of the Forest and whoever is in is in.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-27-08, 07:47 PM	Remember too that 4E has downplayed the idea that gods even have a "race".
Iluvrien 08-27-08, 07:58 PM	Thus the idea of "non-Elf Gods" is moronic to him because the Seldarine is the Brotherhood of the Forest and whoever is in is in. Which raises a question... how did a Primordial get to be "in"? Because I would expect that he would know about Akadi's presence as Aerdrie Faenya from the beginning, wouldn't he?
dutch2061 08-27-08, 08:02 PM	I can see 3in1 Angharradh, but Drizzit an exarch? That just made me throw up in my mouth a little. What is he, the patron of min-maxing munchkins? :D
Charles Phipps 08-27-08, 08:05 PM	I can see 3in1 Angharradh, but Drizzit an exarch? That just made me throw up in my mouth a little. What is he, the patron of min-maxing munchkins? :D I don't think he is. Though it'd be hilarious if he's an Exarch of Lolth and doesn't know it.
GreenKnight 08-27-08, 08:12 PM	Nah, man. Drizzt as the Patron of Min-Maxing Munchkins clearly marks him as an Exarch of Cyric.
Charles Phipps 08-27-08, 08:20 PM	The biggest irony, Green Knight, Drizzt at 16th level isn't even all that powerful according to Realm stats.
GreenKnight 08-27-08, 08:22 PM	Under 3E stats? Nope. Check out his 2E stats, though. He's monstrous, there! That's probably how he earned his munchkin reputation.
AskaniPsion 08-27-08, 08:35 PM	I don't think he is. Though it'd be hilarious if he's an Exarch of Lolth and doesn't know it. I wonder if Quenthel is secretly Lolth's exarch.....I would like that. I really liked her.
Charles Phipps 08-27-08, 08:37 PM	To be honest, I have difficulty believing Quenthel is in the favor of Lolth.
Barthalas 08-27-08, 09:19 PM	The elves have always historically been closed their gods. I really don't see how Corellon would allow human gods to pose as elven gods.....it would be like he was lying to the elves. The Seldarine have always been truthful to the People in the past......if I was an elf I would be insulted about these "imposter" gods. It would have made alot more sense if those 3 goddesses merged to become Angharradh or have Sehanine absorb their divine energy to become Angharradh permanently. Until I see otherwise in a canon book, Sehanine = Angharradh. Not following you... I'm saying I'm going to totally disregard the 4e story that the 3 where human gods with elven aspects and keep them as totally separate elven deities. Once the spellplague hit they merge to form the one and that explains their absence.
AskaniPsion 08-27-08, 09:41 PM	Not following you... I'm saying I'm going to totally disregard the 4e story that the 3 where human gods with elven aspects and keep them as totally separate elven deities. Once the spellplague hit they merge to form the one and that explains their absence. That is exactly what I meant :)
krownhunter07 08-27-08, 09:50 PM	Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe it says, anywhere in the FRCG, that old elven deity's are really human ones incognito. It does say some (unnamed) ones where really aspects of others, but it doesn't call them out. Perhaps, it is left up to us to decide?
Mystrasdance 08-27-08, 10:00 PM	I'm so glad people see the logic of Angharradh it seems simple to me and is supported by the novels at the very least(and before u canon flamers start posting I KNOW NOVELS ARENT CANON TO YOU) and i just want to see WoTC's explaination of who she is and where she came from if the 3 are human's/primordials. I have a hard time thinking that human gods would shave off their powers to form another god, nevermind the issue that 2 of them are greater goddesses, wouldn't that energy expenditure reduce them to godesses? As for Loth's Chosen wasnt it passed from Liriel Baenre to Shakti Hunzrin? Though nothing official was ever written, and i also havent read all of the War of the Spider Queen so I may be blowing air there
Charles Phipps 08-27-08, 10:00 PM	Akadi and Hanelli are explictly called out.
Lord Karsus 08-27-08, 10:01 PM	-Sune's entry, and the entry on Evereska.
Iluvrien 08-27-08, 10:05 PM	Akadi and Hanelli are explictly called out. No kidding. An ostensibly human goddess and a primordial in the Seldarine. Oh I love that retcon cannon :rolleyes: .
krownhunter07 08-27-08, 10:14 PM	hmm, I'll have to read that again, thanks.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-27-08, 10:30 PM	I'm still pretty confused, to be honest. If Sehanine, Hanali, and Aedrie were only ever "masks" for other deities, then where the hell did the 4E Angaradh (sp?) come from?
Charles Phipps 08-27-08, 10:32 PM	Selune, Sune, and Akadi merge to become... http://www.tombradysecrets.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/voltron.jpg
krownhunter07 08-27-08, 10:34 PM	Voltron rocks! er... it did when I was a kid... yeah.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-27-08, 10:35 PM	Yeah.:P I'd still love an answer to my question though, if anyone has it.:)
SmartPaladin 08-27-08, 10:36 PM	Voltron rocks! er... it did when I was a kid... yeah. Gigantor was cooler... Or at least his theme was.
Charles Phipps 08-27-08, 10:38 PM	Yeah.:P I'd still love an answer to my question though, if anyone has it.:) That's still the answer. It's the same origin for the Goddess, she's just a merging of three other goddesses. Only now it's two Greater Goddesses merging with a Primordial.
GreenKnight 08-27-08, 10:41 PM	Voltron was cool, but Devastator rules all.
Therise 08-27-08, 10:49 PM	I'm still pretty confused, to be honest. If Sehanine, Hanali, and Aedrie were only ever "masks" for other deities, then where the hell did the 4E Angaradh (sp?) come from? The cabbage patch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPqhxegO_DM) of course!
Lord Karsus 08-27-08, 11:04 PM	I'm still pretty confused, to be honest. If Sehanine, Hanali, and Aedrie were only ever "masks" for other deities, then where the hell did the 4E Angaradh (sp?) come from? -Reading the canon as 4e, Angharradh came about when Selūne, Akadi and Sune merged when Corellon Larethian was doing battle with the Dark Seldarine in -30,000 DR. How this makes sense, I don't know. What were those three doing in Arvandor to begin with? -Continuity gaffe caused by a retcon that cannot be wholly smoothed.
Charles Phipps 08-27-08, 11:07 PM	-Reading the canon as 4e, Angharradh came about when Selūne, Akadi and Sune merged when Corellon Larethian was doing battle with the Dark Seldarine in -30,000 DR. How this makes sense, I don't know. What were those three doing in Arvandor to begin with? -Continuity gaffe caused by a retcon that cannot be wholly smoothed. Everyone is trying to make too much of this. It's important to realize that Selune, Akadi, and Sune are still the Elvish Goddesses. It's just an identity they assume when they visit. So, Selune is the consort of Corellon and Sune hangs around with the Elvish Gods for romantic pursuits. Akadi is also the creator of the Avariel. Why were they in Arvandor? Answer: They live there. At least part of them does.
Lord Karsus 08-27-08, 11:16 PM	-Aspects of other deities don't have their own divine realms, no. Teylas doesn't have his own divine realm, even though he is an aspect of Akadi.
Charles Phipps 08-27-08, 11:23 PM	-Aspects of other deities don't have their own divine realms, no. Teylas doesn't have his own divine realm, even though he is an aspect of Akadi. They don't have their own divine realm, their avatars live in Arvandor.
Lord Karsus 08-27-08, 11:25 PM	-They don't have avatars. Never once have we ever seen an aspect of a deity take on it's own avatar, that I can recall in canon.
Deama 08-28-08, 03:09 AM	So, Selune is the consort of Corellon Actually no the FRCG clearly states on page 62 in the Arvandor entry that Angharradh is Corellon's consort, Also no where in the FRCG does it say anything about Selune being Sehanine, it may have been posted in an artical as an example of what could have happened to missing deities on the website but it is not in the book and that is what matters not the website so using that logic Sehanine was never an aspect of Selune. Again I say as to Sune using the name Hanali and Akadi using Aerdrie they are probly just trying to fill a Davine gap left in the absence of those two and felt it would be easier for them to just lie and say they were aspects to help the followers convert over with less tension
Mystrasdance 08-28-08, 06:08 AM	I'm still pretty confused, to be honest. If Sehanine, Hanali, and Aedrie were only ever "masks" for other deities, then where the hell did the 4E Angaradh (sp?) come from? EXACTLY thank you the stupid people in WoTC could have done without all this confusion if they had just fused them permanently into Angaradh instead of making them aspects of human goddesses adding an entry for Angaradh and going .......... Seriously someone on high needs to answer this(preferably in a sane way, like maybe making her an elf from an elf by an elf for the elves hmmm?) I highly doubt as those human goddesses (and primordial) shaved of parts of their power to form a new goddess and even if they did wouldnt that make those greater goddesses into just plain Goddesses? I mean not even Gods have infinite power in the Realms
Mr_IndustrialPants 08-28-08, 06:16 AM	Voltron was cool, but Devastator rules all. Soundwave superior. Constructicons inferior. Selune, Sune, and Akadi merge to become... http://www.tombradysecrets.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/voltron.jpg ...and all the gods merge to form this... http://www.agorafora.com/images/Feature%20Photos/Voltron.jpg (imho my favorite Voltron) I personally had no problem with what happened to the gods in FR. The issue with Sehanine Moonbow and Selune actually makes sense. Garagos and Talos was weird, but it makes sense too. The only god I haven't heard about was Shaundakul. ...but any that's just my opinon...yes...I like FR 4th ed.
AskaniPsion 08-28-08, 07:08 AM	Actually no the FRCG clearly states on page 62 in the Arvandor entry that Angharradh is Corellon's consort, Also no where in the FRCG does it say anything about Selune being Sehanine, it may have been posted in an artical as an example of what could have happened to missing deities on the website but it is not in the book and that is what matters not the website so using that logic Sehanine was never an aspect of Selune. Again I say as to Sune using the name Hanali and Akadi using Aerdrie they are probably just trying to fill a Davine gap left in the absence of those two and felt it would be easier for them to just lie and say they were aspects to help the followers convert over with less tension It was Rich who said Selune and Sehanine were the same goddess but that has not been in print anywhere....so until I see it in print I consider Sehanine = Angharradh. They should have had Sehanine be the Goddess of Illusions or Mysticism....the moon aspect part of her was just one aspect of many that she had. Sune is a greater goddess so I don't see her merging with 2 lesser goddesses to become a lesser goddess :confused: ....would not make sense. I also thought primordials and gods didn't like each other in 4E....why would they merge with Akadi?? Their retcons just don't make sense in some places. I do like most of the changes in 4E as I personally think the Realms needed a shakeup - it had become too stable and peaceful but the Seladarine thing has me annoyed.
Rauric 08-28-08, 08:37 AM	Ubtao looks to be a Primordial that changed allegiences.
Charles Phipps 08-28-08, 09:48 AM	-They don't have avatars. Never once have we ever seen an aspect of a deity take on it's own avatar, that I can recall in canon. That's just fanon you made up. If Selune sends an avatar that looks like Sehanine, it's an avatar of Sehanine. Actually no the FRCG clearly states on page 62 in the Arvandor entry that Angharradh is Corellon's consort, Also no where in the FRCG does it say anything about Selune being Sehanine, it may have been posted in an artical as an example of what could have happened to missing deities on the website but it is not in the book and that is what matters not the website so using that logic Sehanine was never an aspect of Selune. Again I say as to Sune using the name Hanali and Akadi using Aerdrie they are probly just trying to fill a Davine gap left in the absence of those two and felt it would be easier for them to just lie and say they were aspects to help the followers convert over with less tension No, it's established pretty clearly that Hanelli and Sune were always the same deity. Ditto for Akadi and Aerdie. Also, Angharradh is made up of Three Deities so what I've said is true. I highly doubt as those human goddesses (and primordial) shaved of parts of their power to form a new goddess and even if they did wouldnt that make those greater goddesses into just plain Goddesses? I mean not even Gods have infinite power in the Realms I think Angharradh isn't a permanent thing, just something they merge into on occassion.
msatran 08-28-08, 10:20 AM	Soundwave superior. Constructicons inferior. ...and all the gods merge to form this... http://www.agorafora.com/images/Feature%20Photos/Voltron.jpg (imho my favorite Voltron) I personally had no problem with what happened to the gods in FR. The issue with Sehanine Moonbow and Selune actually makes sense. Garagos and Talos was weird, but it makes sense too. The only god I haven't heard about was Shaundakul. ...but any that's just my opinon...yes...I like FR 4th ed. Right. Clearly, you don't know any more about the Forgotten Realms than you do about Voltron. For the record, as far as the original series are concerned, there IS no Voltron. Voltron is completely a creation of the americanized versions of two TOTALLY separate cartoons. The lion one is called Golion, and it's much darker than it's American counterpart. Whole episodes were removed and replaced with stock footage. There are a lot of deaths. The vehicle one (And yes, I liked the japanese version of this better, too) is called Dairuggar 15. It was also heavily edited, and the dialogue changed to hide that the last episode is the heroes going to the Drule home planet and BLOWING IT UP, KILLING EVERYONE! Yeah, that's right, they heavily dumbed these down for American audiences. So now let's look at 4E FR. The analogy seems rather apt now, doesn't it? All the complexity, gone. All the character development? Gone. All the interesting little tidbits? Gone. All the sex? Gone!
Charles Phipps 08-28-08, 10:23 AM	Some of us knew that, Mstaran, actually. And some of us note that, like Robotech, Voltron became its own property seperate from Go-Lion.
msatran 08-28-08, 11:45 AM	I really try hard to forget that the American version of Robotech ever existed, Charles.
Charles Phipps 08-28-08, 12:14 PM	I try very hard to forget that the sequels to Macross thought what fans wanted was more music and cheesy love stories than cool robots and war stories.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-28-08, 03:56 PM	Soundwave was cool.:cool: Regarding the triune goddess thing...I have to admit, I'm still confused.:crazy:
GreenKnight 08-28-08, 04:00 PM	Soundwave was cool.:cool: This calls for a youtube video! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsLcTtCrqwg) :P
Iluvrien 08-28-08, 04:05 PM	Regarding the triune goddess thing...I have to admit, I'm still confused.:crazy: As am I. Either we have two human goddesses and a primordial fusing (parts of themselves, permanently unless Angharradh is to be a Part Time consort to Corellon) to become the Female head of the Seldarine... ...or they are raceless and formless, in which case why bother with the presentation of an Elven Avatar in the first place? A raceless body would leave nothing for people to take exception to as it is a God... and that is if there was even a body instead of a blinding light. I don't get it. I really don't. I also think that the revelation of Hanali Celanil and Aerdrie Faenya caused only "confusion" for the people of Evereska has far more to do with designer requirement than narrative causality.
Charles Phipps 08-28-08, 04:13 PM	As am I. Either we have two human goddesses and a primordial fusing (parts of themselves, permanently unless Angharradh is to be a Part Time consort to Corellon) to become the Female head of the Seldarine... ...or they are raceless and formless, in which case why bother with the presentation of an Elven Avatar in the first place? A raceless body would leave nothing for people to take exception to as it is a God... and that is if there was even a body instead of a blinding light. I don't get it. I really don't. I'm actually curious what's so hard to grasp. Corellon and the rest of the gods of the Realms are raceless and formless but choose forms to present to their worshipers or to indulge themselves in earthly pleasures. To use an old RL example, Zeus appears as a Swan and a Golden Shower as often as he does a dude. However, to look upon his true form was enough to kill Dionyssus' mother. I presume that the two goddesses (calling Selune and Sune "human" goddesses is a fallacy since Selune and probably Sune are both older than the human race. Likewise, they were probably worshiped by the Sarrukh and other Creator Races---plus their "elven" guises are no dout as true to them as their non-Elven Guises) are part of the Seldarine because Corellon likes them. Just like Mielikki was a member of the Seldarine under another name and Sharess is Zandilar (whose still worshiped as such). But yes, I actually assume that Angharradh is a part time consort. I figure the three goddesses only combine for Special Occasions. Selune mostly spends her time in Arvandor, "being" Sehanine and the same for her other buddies. The important thing to remember is Selune isn't Selune's real name any more than Sehanine probably. They're both just names given to the goddess by mortals. The implications that Amaunator and Lathander are just fragments of a greater Sun God were outright stated in his section.
Iluvrien 08-28-08, 04:31 PM	Don't worry Charles. I understand what you are saying. I'm actually curious what's so hard to grasp. Corellon and the rest of the gods of the Realms are raceless and formless but choose forms to present to their worshipers or to indulge themselves in earthly pleasures. To use an old RL example, Zeus appears as a Swan and a Golden Shower as often as he does a dude. However, to look upon his true form was enough to kill Dionyssus' mother. Indeed... both times to seduce women, the first time Leda and the second time was Danae (if memory serves)... and Europa as a Great White Bull.. and so on. I had just considered the Good aligned Seldarine above such... shenanigans. Not least because we haven't heard of many demi-deific children. But yes, I actually assume that Angharradh is a part time consort. I figure the three goddesses only combine for Special Occasions. Selune mostly spends her time in Arvandor, "being" Sehanine and the same for her other buddies. Well doesn't that bite for Angharradh's worshippers? Not least because they don't know if their goddess is going to be with them that day or not. Under the old system of directly granted magic wouldn't this mean her clerics had no power whatsoevere for most of the time any one of the three were doing something else? Or do you think there would always be one of the other two filling in for the busy one... just in case. The important thing to remember is Selune isn't Selune's real name any more than Sehanine probably. They're both just names given to the goddess by mortals. The implications that Amaunator and Lathander are just fragments of a greater Sun God were outright stated in his section. I would be very interested to know your source for this. I had always thought that it would be the god/goddess' choice what name theur gave to their faithful... not the faithful's choice.
Charles Phipps 08-28-08, 04:40 PM	Indeed... both times to seduce women, the first time Leda and the second time was Danae (if memory serves)... and Europa as a Great White Bull.. and so on. I had just considered the Good aligned Seldarine above such... shenanigans. Not least because we haven't heard of many demi-deific children. Well, the published realms is a bit different than the canon Realms in that regard. The canon Realms, for example, includes all of Ed Greenwoods notes and that means that the Realms are filled with a very lusty bunch of citizens and probably deities as well. If Ed were ever asked about the Seldarine, I expect we'd see a huge number of children by them. Certainly, the Mulhorandi gods were stated to have huge numbers of descendants. Plus, we had a story in the Realms of the Elves where at least one of the female elves was lovers with the Elven God of Trickery, Erevan Ilesere. I personally go with the canon realms' sexual behaviors mirror the gods. It's a fact Chauntaea and Lathander both have huge numbers of Aasimar children spread about the Realms in my Realms. Well doesn't that bite for Angharradh's worshippers? Not least because they don't know if their goddess is going to be with them that day or not. Under the old system of directly granted magic wouldn't this mean her clerics had no power whatsoevere for most of the time any one of the three were doing something else? Or do you think there would always be one of the other two filling in for the busy one... just in case. Well it's something they never bothered to explain but I tend to think that most likely the goddess was meant to be worshiped as her three seperate aspects. Generalist clerics existed in 2E and they drew power from entire pantheons, I tend to assume that the same went for worshipers of Angharradh. They drew power from all goddesses simultaneously. I would be very interested to know your source for this. I had always thought that it would be the god/goddess' choice what name theur gave to their faithful... not the faithful's choice. It might be the gods just being that way. Remember, the Beldine in the Old Forgotten Realms (as I call Pre-4E now) worshiped the gods of the Realms under different names. Plus, we have Marduk in Unther being another name for Bahamut. It's rarer than in Dragonlance where deities with multiple names is much more common but it does exist.
Mystrasdance 08-28-08, 05:22 PM	@Charles ok so I've read all your explainations and i suppose i have to be honest with myself and say that it is at least plauseable. I guess the only things that really insult me are these: 1: Elves are not humans the have both an intrinsic link to each other and their gods, this implies to me that they know their gods a tad better than humans do formless beings or not. 2.Elven gods dont behave like human gods and i'm not talking about weither an aspect of some formless being chooses to wear purple or blue or have pointed ears or not when they show themselves to their worshippers. I mean elven gods arent rash, work well together and are a community among others things, human gods in the realms tend to be solitary or work in small groups with occacional alliances with each other but seriously its a stretch to say they are ANYWHERE near the level of closness that the elven gods have been portrayed as. Just a couple of thoughts i do get what u ment Charles its not hard to understand i think to me and others its just stupid to change 3 of our favorite goddesses into humans when they had a perfect out in permanetly fusing them(as elves) in Angarradh. In the past it was an occasional fusing to meet those problems that their individiual powers could not handle, isnt it within the realm of possiblity that as a previous poster said they forsaw(Sehanine was the goddess of mysteries and secrets after all) they could not survive the spellplague and so permanetly fused so save themselves? Or any other Rp way of doing it, it would still be more believable to me and still have the wittling affect that WoTC clearly wanted to do to the pantheon
Charles Phipps 08-28-08, 05:54 PM	1. Say what you will about human beings but they actually have a closer relationship with their gods than the Elves in many parts. The Gold Elves, for example, don't seem to understand that the Gods of the Elves are Chaotic Good and value personal freedom and tolerance over things like tradition or blood purity. Say what you will about Torm's worshipers but they at least don't believe he's the God of Personal Freedom and Carousing. 2. I think you're overestimating just how "human" the gods are. Selune is infinitely wise, majestic, and powerful. Likewise, Silvanus is a tree. A huge :censored: tree. He's ancient as the stars and the embodiment of uncaring and powerful nature. It's important to remember Selune is not a human goddess, she's the MOON. Likewise, Chauntaea isn't a human whose a goddess, she's the PLANET. Humans *worship* them and they occasionally take on a human form. It's actually a major point in my game that gods like Bane, Mystra, and Kelemvor are NOT LIKE other gods because they have mortal lives that are different from being embodiments of concepts. Selune has never been human save by choice. But you're effectively missing that humans worship Cthulhu. Does that make Cthulhu a human god? Just a couple of thoughts i do get what u ment Charles its not hard to understand i think to me and others its just stupid to change 3 of our favorite goddesses into humans when they had a perfect out in permanetly fusing them(as elves) in Angarradh. I guess my point is that they're not human and never have been. I've never actually had Corellon particularly value the Elves over other races either. Blame Dragonlance but he's got many other children (mostly fairy races) and he loves them all equally. It's also important to remember Humans in the Realms aren't the Humans of Earth. You've got your Numenoreans and other "wise, gracious, and noble at heart" types plus humans who are even more in touch with the natural worlds than Elves could ever hope to be. Of course, in my world, Corellon has been worshiped by humans for millions of years...as Lathander.
Mr_IndustrialPants 08-28-08, 05:57 PM	Right. Clearly, you don't know any more about the Forgotten Realms than you do about Voltron. For the record, as far as the original series are concerned, there IS no Voltron. Voltron is completely a creation of the americanized versions of two TOTALLY separate cartoons. The lion one is called Golion, and it's much darker than it's American counterpart. Whole episodes were removed and replaced with stock footage. There are a lot of deaths. The vehicle one (And yes, I liked the japanese version of this better, too) is called Dairuggar 15. It was also heavily edited, and the dialogue changed to hide that the last episode is the heroes going to the Drule home planet and BLOWING IT UP, KILLING EVERYONE! Yeah, that's right, they heavily dumbed these down for American audiences. So now let's look at 4E FR. The analogy seems rather apt now, doesn't it? All the complexity, gone. All the character development? Gone. All the interesting little tidbits? Gone. All the sex? Gone! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I should have marked my Voltron portion of my post as sarcasm. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Clearly you don't seem to understand that I am not concerned with the origins of the Voltron series here in the US (although that is very interesting information and I wonder if there is a version of those series with English sub-text). To be honest I'm not hung up on how things happen in the novels, or from previous editions, or etc etc etc like others are. Why? DnD is an escape for me. I play (and DM) for fun to get away from the following: work bills gas prices reality my wife politics (the politics in DnD are more interesting because there are more than 2 choices) beaten-to-death sports stories etc. If it turns out that one elven goddess in the previous edition is actually another goddess in disguise...cool. Besides last I check people complained because there were too many gods. You can't have your cake and eat it too (I've tried). So needless to say I do know the Realms. Enough for my needs to play them. If I can go through the history in the sourcebooks and be able to see the progression that's enough story for me, and I'm glad someone took the time to produce it for us to play in. I'm sure the people who make the game would rather be doing their current job than a thankless, harder, less paying/desireable job. Although I am curious about one thing...sex? If you're looking for sex you're already on the web and a simple search on the internet will fill that need for you. I don't think you'll be finding any in FR. ...although that would be an interesting gaming experience. I wonder if anyone would be told they aren't "in character" during those kind of sessions.
Charles Phipps 08-28-08, 06:00 PM	I don't think a response was needed really, Mister Industrial Pants. The merits of posting about the dumbing down a children's show for other children being sort of something that already says it all doesn't it?
Mr_IndustrialPants 08-28-08, 06:11 PM	I don't think a response was needed really, Mister Industrial Pants. The merits of posting about the dumbing down a children's show for other children being sort of something that already says it all doesn't it? Hmm...not sure how my point was missed so let me try again. I stated my opinion on how I like the changes in 4th and was essentially told that I don't know anything (or enough to comment on the subject). I then illustrated (or attempted to) that there are those who play and enjoy FR 4th edition as it seems things have been geared more to a negative reaction to it because of what did/did not happen. Some of us aren't tied to what happens in novels to enjoy our gaming experiences. I've read them, like them, and think they enhance the game. Hopefully this better illustrates the point I was trying to make.
Charles Phipps 08-28-08, 06:37 PM	I was making a point that his post was silly.
AskaniPsion 08-28-08, 06:39 PM	ok so I've read all your explainations and i suppose i have to be honest with myself and say that it is at least plauseable. I guess the only things that really insult me are these: 1: Elves are not humans the have both an intrinsic link to each other and their gods, this implies to me that they know their gods a tad better than humans do formless beings or not. 2.Elven gods dont behave like human gods and i'm not talking about weither an aspect of some formless being chooses to wear purple or blue or have pointed ears or not when they show themselves to their worshippers. I mean elven gods arent rash, work well together and are a community among others things, human gods in the realms tend to be solitary or work in small groups with occacional alliances with each other but seriously its a stretch to say they are ANYWHERE near the level of closness that the elven gods have been portrayed as. Just a couple of thoughts i do get what u ment Charles its not hard to understand i think to me and others its just stupid to change 3 of our favorite goddesses into humans when they had a perfect out in permanetly fusing them(as elves) in Angarradh. In the past it was an occasional fusing to meet those problems that their individiual powers could not handle, isnt it within the realm of possiblity that as a previous poster said they forsaw(Sehanine was the goddess of mysteries and secrets after all) they could not survive the spellplague and so permanetly fused so save themselves? Or any other Rp way of doing it, it would still be more believable to me and still have the wittling affect that WoTC clearly wanted to do to the pantheon I think it was explained in books regarding Evermeet how close the elves were to the Seldarine. If the designers were planning on keeping Angarradh around, then they should have just merged the 3 goddesses in her like Mystrasdance said. Yes Charles we understand that a god can appear as an elf or human to their worshiipers but in the Realms it just doesn't make sense with what has been written so far. If it was Selune the whole time posing as Sehanine, why then doesn't Lolth have a grudge against her?? Why hasn't Selune ever clashed with Lolth in the books? There was no need for Sehanine to have any thing to do with Selune. The Moon aspect was just a small part of all the aspects of Sehanine. I think Illusions and Mysticism were more at the forefront of her aspects which could have easily gone to Angarradh. Selune could have easily gone to Greater Godhood by absorbing Mystra's energy back - there was no need to involve Sehanine. Except for Rich's comment on the boards, there has been no official writing that says Selune = Sehanine yet. I am guessing we might get a better answer in the FR Player's Guide since there will hopefully be more deity information in that. Angarradh will hopefully get more information about her. It was always said that Sehanine was the most prominent personality in Angarradh and actually the Gold Elves just considered her an aspect of Sehanine.
Charles Phipps 08-28-08, 07:09 PM	I think it was explained in books regarding Evermeet how close the elves were to the Seldarine. If the designers were planning on keeping Angarradh around, then they should have just merged the 3 goddesses in her like Mystrasdance said. Actually, I own all those books. Evermeet is an Isle that was ripped from Arvandor by Elven High Magic but it was the Queen of the Elves who had the special relationship with the Seldarine rather than any elves in particular. If it was Selune the whole time posing as Sehanine, why then doesn't Lolth have a grudge against her?? Why hasn't Selune ever clashed with Lolth in the books? She does hate Selune. She hates her with a fiery passion. Lolth has tried to strike at Selune's children in the Moon Elves on numerous occasions. Really, when she's focused on destroying Selune's Holy Isle of Evermeet, why bother with the scattered pockets of human worshipers that she has? There was no need for Sehanine to have any thing to do with Selune. The Moon aspect was just a small part of all the aspects of Sehanine. I think Illusions and Mysticism were more at the forefront of her aspects which could have easily gone to Angarradh. Maybe, but I guess my issue is that I think it's a very good idea since it's been canon at my table that Sehanine and Selune are the same for the better part of ten years at this point. This obviously won't effect other games but I have always played Selune as being very in tune with nature, mysticism, and other Sehanine-like qualities anyway.
AskaniPsion 08-28-08, 08:07 PM	Actually, I own all those books. Evermeet is an Isle that was ripped from Arvandor by Elven High Magic but it was the Queen of the Elves who had the special relationship with the Seldarine rather than any elves in particular. She does hate Selune. She hates her with a fiery passion. Lolth has tried to strike at Selune's children in the Moon Elves on numerous occasions. Really, when she's focused on destroying Selune's Holy Isle of Evermeet, why bother with the scattered pockets of human worshipers that she has? Maybe, but I guess my issue is that I think it's a very good idea since it's been canon at my table that Sehanine and Selune are the same for the better part of ten years at this point. This obviously won't effect other games but I have always played Selune as being very in tune with nature, mysticism, and other Sehanine-like qualities anyway. All the above is your opinion. If you wish to have Selune and Sehanine as the same person at your game, then do so. But don't expect that everyone who plays in the Realms also do so. No where in any of the Pre-4th edition FR books does it mention Selune and Sehanine as the same entity. No where does it say in 4E that they are the same except for the comment Rich made. So it is every individual/group's own decision how they will interpret the changes.
Charles Phipps 08-28-08, 08:24 PM	I know, however, I wanted to say that if you wanted to argue against the changes then there was valid ground to do so. And there's no real problem, at least in my mind, if they are the same.
Deama 08-28-08, 08:32 PM	1. Say what you will about human beings but they actually have a closer relationship with their gods than the Elves in many parts. The Gold Elves, for example, don't seem to understand that the Gods of the Elves are Chaotic Good and value personal freedom and tolerance over things like tradition or blood purity. Say what you will about Torm's worshipers but they at least don't believe he's the God of Personal Freedom and Carousing. There isn't really anything to correct since we are all just expressing our opinions here and yes Elves tend to be Chaotic but that is Chaotic good where humans have no tendency of alignment, you will find just as many Chaotic Evil humans as you will Lawful Good and seeing as traditionally the Seldarine is Chaotic Good with a few Chaotic Neutral I would say that is evidence of a close tie as far as alignment to there deities. I guess my point is that they're not human and never have been. I've never actually had Corellon particularly value the Elves over other races either. Blame Dragonlance but he's got many other children (mostly fairy races) and he loves them all equally. Now that is your game and your world but let me pull something out of the 4E FRCG for you about Corellon page 74 "Though he is a skilled warrior, it is his love of the eladrin and there great works of magic and beauty that inspires Corellon" Which to me means that he loves the Eladrin above all other races and I would guess that is because of there creation story, being born of his blood. now remember this is all going to come down to our personal opinions and my will stand strong with my previous posts.
Charles Phipps 08-28-08, 08:34 PM	There isn't really anything to correct since we are all just expressing our opinions here and yes Elves tend to be Chaotic but that is Chaotic good where humans have no tendency of alignment, you will find just as many Chaotic Evil humans as you will Lawful Good and seeing as traditionally the Seldarine is Chaotic Good with a few Chaotic Neutral I would say that is evidence of a close tie as far as alignment to there deities. I don't really see that as the case since the Gold Elves were, at least according to the Handbook of the Elves, tending towards Lawful over Chaotic. Also, human beings come in a variety of alignments but so do their gods. Plus, humans have far more Chosen.
Rauric 08-28-08, 09:42 PM	Right. Clearly, you don't know any more about the Forgotten Realms than you do about Voltron. For the record, as far as the original series are concerned, there IS no Voltron. Voltron is completely a creation of the americanized versions of two TOTALLY separate cartoons. The lion one is called Golion, and it's much darker than it's American counterpart. Whole episodes were removed and replaced with stock footage. There are a lot of deaths. The vehicle one (And yes, I liked the japanese version of this better, too) is called Dairuggar 15. It was also heavily edited, and the dialogue changed to hide that the last episode is the heroes going to the Drule home planet and BLOWING IT UP, KILLING EVERYONE! Yeah, that's right, they heavily dumbed these down for American audiences. So now let's look at 4E FR. The analogy seems rather apt now, doesn't it? All the complexity, gone. All the character development? Gone. All the interesting little tidbits? Gone. All the sex? Gone! In the american market they were geared to kids. Back then that was too much for the youngsters.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-28-08, 10:44 PM	This calls for a youtube video! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsLcTtCrqwg) :P Gotta love a guy who still uses cassette tapes.:P ;)
Lord Karsus 08-28-08, 10:54 PM	That's just fanon you made up. If Selune sends an avatar that looks like Sehanine, it's an avatar of Sehanine. -No, it's fact, based on the precedence of nonoccurrence. Furthermore, if Selūne sends an avatar somewhere that looks like Sehanine Moonbow, it's still Selūne.
Mystrasdance 08-29-08, 10:08 PM	Actually, I own all those books. Evermeet is an Isle that was ripped from Arvandor by Elven High Magic but it was the Queen of the Elves who had the special relationship with the Seldarine rather than any elves in particular. Well per Evermeet thats not totally true. The isle was ripped from the mainland of Faerun by elven high magic and when it got beyond the mages and may have caused more horrific damage to the world the Elven gods(or i guess human ones***choke***) reached through the Circle's center and used their powers to stabalize the magic. This is what gave the isle its connection to Arvandor. Not trying to quibble here just an fyi Just another small point is this on page 131 of the FRCS in the Evereska entry i saw today onel of the plots and adventure sites were that the priests of Hanali opened a portal to arvandor to find out the identity of their goddess, this kinda suggests to me that they are both angered and appalled at finding out their goddess is human to me. WoTC just seemed to make a mess out of something that could have been so easily delt with...the only thing i hold out hope for is that its actually something that will be explained in some rational fashion somewhere some day
Therise 08-29-08, 10:23 PM	Just another small point is this on page 131 of the FRCS in the Evereska entry i saw today onel of the plots and adventure sites were that the priests of Hanali opened a portal to arvandor to find out the identity of their goddess, this kinda suggests to me that they are both angered and appalled at finding out their goddess is human to me. The really... odd thing about this - it suggests that in tens of thousands of years, none of the elves ever visited Hanali Celanil in Arvandor. Why would a portal there suddenly give them the answer that Hanali was only an avatar of Sune? For that matter, why would the initial elvish worship of "beauty" originally link itself to a human goddess - thus making the Hanali "lie" necessary for the elves? Doesn't make sense, imo.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-29-08, 10:39 PM	The really... odd thing about this - it suggests that in tens of thousands of years, none of the elves ever visited Hanali Celanil in Arvandor. Why would a portal there suddenly give them the answer that Hanali was only an avatar of Sune? LOL, great question.
Mystrasdance 08-29-08, 10:43 PM	Amen! Also something that came to me as i read your reply Therise. Most of the current Sun/Moon elf(Elandrin) population are migrants from Faerie(The Feywild now) now while there did they worship human gods and goddesses? I tend to think not. WoTC's explaination may try and cover Toril's mess they made but Human gods would have no place in a Realm that is exclusivly Elandrin, Elf and Fey. Unless they retamess it a different way of course(retamess=retacon) Edit: before people tell me that gods are formless blah blah blah Elandrin are fey and the fey are the perview of Correllon per the new book
Rauric 08-29-08, 10:52 PM	The really... odd thing about this - it suggests that in tens of thousands of years, none of the elves ever visited Hanali Celanil in Arvandor. Why would a portal there suddenly give them the answer that Hanali was only an avatar of Sune? For that matter, why would the initial elvish worship of "beauty" originally link itself to a human goddess - thus making the Hanali "lie" necessary for the elves? Doesn't make sense, imo. Here is the answer I think in some regards. I am a fan of the setting since 1987. I have read many novels and many sourcebooks. I could care less about Hanali Cenali or the portal or the Seldrane (SP?) I am not saying I represent every "oldschool" fan. I am just giving my opinion of this situation as a fan from way back when. Not every longtime fan and consumer cares about the changes to the certain parts of the Realms. Just my opinion.
krownhunter07 08-29-08, 10:56 PM	Same here... although I started with the Realms in later then '87...
Therise 08-29-08, 11:04 PM	Here is the answer I think in some reagards. I am a fan of the setting since 1987. I have read many novels and many sourcebooks. I could care less about Hanali Cenali or the portal or the Seldrane (SP?) I am not saying I represent every "oldschool" fan. I am just giving my opinion of this situation as a fan from way back when. Not every longtime fan and consumer cares about the changes to the certain parts of the Realms. Let's just consider this for a moment: I ask a question about lore and continuity of a 4E Realms goddess, which is imo a fairly valid question for the Realmslore forum... and your answer is basically "because Rauric doesn't care" and "screw people who care about lore item X, because they're not Rauric"...? Nice way to community build there, Rauric.
Charles Phipps 08-29-08, 11:07 PM	Let's just consider this for a moment: I ask a question about lore and continuity of a 4E Realms goddess, which is imo a fairly valid question for the Realmslore forum... and your answer is basically "because Rauric doesn't care" and "screw people who care about lore item X, because they're not Rauric"...? Nice way to community build there, Rauric. Actually, I agree with him. The assumption that all past bits of Realmslore are of equal importance and changing any of it is going to turn off veteran players is a hasty assumption. I've been here since the Time of Troubles myself.
Therise 08-29-08, 11:11 PM	Actually, I agree with him. The assumption that all past bits of Realmslore are of equal importance and changing any of it is going to turn off veteran players is a hasty assumption. I've been here since the Time of Troubles myself. Since we're apparently playing the e-peen game of "trump the oldskooler" today, I might point out that I've been a fan since Ed's "Pages from the Mages" in Dragon. Do I win this pointless contest? My question was about an issue of lore, not whether or not players of particular generations/editions care about lore specifics.
krownhunter07 08-29-08, 11:19 PM	To answer your question; it doesn't say how they learn of it, only that their casting was a success and they learn the truth.
Mystrasdance 08-29-08, 11:22 PM	Since we're apparently playing the e-peen game of "trump the oldskooler" today, I might point out that I've been a fan since Ed's "Pages from the Mages" in Dragon. Do I win this pointless contest? My question was about an issue of lore, not whether or not players of particular generations/editions care about lore specifics. Yea I'm with ya there Therise i wasnt going to reply to the other post as i'm not really interested in flaming or starting pointless bs back and forth. As a fan that does like the Realms to make a bit of sense one evolution to another i dont think that its fair to those that do have these concerns to be dismissed out of hand. Plus if your opinion is valid then so is ours free country(if u live in the US) and all that. Plus the 30 some odd pages of this forums suggest to me there may be some others that do too(granted i dont troll the forums often so i may have no idea what a large post is or not)
Charles Phipps 08-29-08, 11:24 PM	Since we're apparently playing the e-peen game of "trump the oldskooler" today, I might point out that I've been a fan since Ed's "Pages from the Mages" in Dragon. Do I win this pointless contest? My question was about an issue of lore, not whether or not players of particular generations/editions care about lore specifics. True, but I do think some of the retcons were for the better. I actually like Returned Abeir. Ironically, I think I would have much preferred if they'd just used the "it's always been that way" excuse for it and not so much for the goddesses.
Rauric 08-29-08, 11:24 PM	Let's just consider this for a moment: I ask a question about lore and continuity of a 4E Realms goddess, which is imo a fairly valid question for the Realmslore forum... and your answer is basically "because Rauric doesn't care" and "screw people who care about lore item X, because they're not Rauric"...? Nice way to community build there, Rauric. I appreaciate how you are trying to understand where I am coming from Therise. Oh wait a second , you totally misunderstood and then misrepresented what I was trying to say. Go figure. If I am a fan from waaay back and don't even know what you are talking about ( or care for it either, :( ) then perhaps other fans from way back could care less also. That is why I posted my comment. It is not that I care about specifics (which I do not) it is about whether some older fans even know that the spicifics even exist or matter that much. I am not trying to break down the community, just throwing out my opinion on the matter. I am sorry if it upset you. I also like the new Abeir on Toril angle. This has made me get some new ideas for running games in FR. The new book has done alot for me in that reagard.
Therise 08-29-08, 11:28 PM	To answer your question; it doesn't say how they learn of it, only that their casting was a success and they learn the truth. Let me clarify. The fact that priests getting to "see" Hanali Celanil via portal in 1385 DR suggests that no elf in the entire history of the Realms ever got to see Hanali. That's tens of thousands of years of history. No elf had ever been to Arvandor in all that time to see that Hanali was, in fact, Sune? That not only stretches credibility, it seems inconceivable. (Cue the Inigo Montoya Princess Bride quote).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-29-08, 11:29 PM	Not every longtime fan and consumer cares about the changes to the certain parts of the Realms. So?
Mystrasdance 08-29-08, 11:29 PM	True, but I do think some of the retcons were for the better. I actually like Returned Abeir. Ironically, I think I would have much preferred if they'd just used the "it's always been that way" excuse for it and not so much for the goddesses. The return of Abeir is likly to be a great addition as well as a breath of fresh air for Faerun i agree...i just hate the "its always been that way" excuse they used for the goddesses as well...most especially when they have a solid way of handling it via the their own lore.
Mystrasdance 08-29-08, 11:38 PM	Let me clarify. The fact that priests getting to "see" Hanali Celanil via portal in 1385 DR suggests that no elf in the entire history of the Realms ever got to see Hanali. That's tens of thousands of years of history. No elf had ever been to Arvandor in all that time to see that Hanali was, in fact, Sune? That not only stretches credibility, it seems inconceivable. (Cue the Inigo Montoya Princess Bride quote). Also Therise if we accept this retacon then priests of the goddess Hanali/Sehanine die and when their souls are picked up from the Fugue plain they are taken to The Gates of the Moon rather than Arvandor right? Priests of Ardrie Fayne(sp?) die and end up in the Elemental Chaos. I dont know about you all but if i were told my whole 900 years of life i'd be going one place and ended up another i'd come back and haunt all your A**es
krownhunter07 08-29-08, 11:40 PM	Let me clarify. The fact that priests getting to "see" Hanali Celanil via portal in 1385 DR suggests that no elf in the entire history of the Realms ever got to see Hanali. That's tens of thousands of years of history. No elf had ever been to Arvandor in all that time to see that Hanali was, in fact, Sune? That not only stretches credibility, it seems inconceivable. (Cue the Inigo Montoya Princess Bride quote). It doesn't imply that at all... I'll post it here; In an effort to learn the truth of their goddess's identity, the priests of Hanali Celanil opened a portal to Aravandor out in the Vine Vale. The casting was successful, but they learned the deity existed in Aravandor only as an avatar of Sune, who was allowed by Corellon to extend her power from the Gates of the Moon. It doesn't say or imply what you're thinking.
Therise 08-29-08, 11:42 PM	If I am a fan from waaay back and don't even know what you are talking about ( or care for it either, :( ) then perhaps other fans from way back could care less also. That is why I posted my comment. It is not that I care about specifics (which I do not) it is about whether some older fans even know that the spicifics even exist or matter that much. I am not trying to break down the community, just throwing out my opinion on the matter. I am sorry if it upset you. I'm hardly "upset", I'm just pointing out that when people say "I couldn't care less" it adds nothing to the conversation except to be confrontational and dismissive at the same time. There's no other reason for such a comment, because if you really didn't care then you wouldn't say anything at all. We're here to talk about Realmslore, after all, not compare what we don't care about.
Therise 08-29-08, 11:43 PM	It doesn't imply that at all... I'll post it here; It doesn't say or imply what you're thinking. Oh good grief, that's exactly what it implies. Be serious.
krownhunter07 08-29-08, 11:49 PM	Oh good grief, that's exactly what it implies. Be serious. Nowhere does it say that Elves have never went to Aravandor. Yet, nowhere (that I am aware of) has it been said the Elves went to Aravandor with the intent of knowing the identity of their Deity's, either. Is that in the old lore? If not, what's the problem?
Therise 08-29-08, 11:53 PM	Also Therise if we accept this retacon then priests of the goddess Hanali/Sehanine die and when their souls are picked up from the Fugue plain they are taken to The Gates of the Moon rather than Arvandor right? Priests of Ardrie Fayne(sp?) die and end up in the Elemental Chaos. I dont know about you all but if i were told my whole 900 years of life i'd be going one place and ended up another i'd come back and haunt all your A**es Completely agree. It'd be like Joe Human worshipping Torm, only to find out that Torm is -actually- a halfling deity. The whole thing about Sehanine is also just as weird... but Aerdrie Feyna... "her" worshippers don't even apparently go to Arvandor. That's just bizarre from a cultural standpoint, because it would split up the whole idea that elves rejoin the greater family of Fey-ness when they cross over to the other side. The very nature of faith has been retconned, because it causes a fundamental shift in each culture's religion.
Charles Phipps 08-29-08, 11:55 PM	Well Khelben went to Arvandor despite being a Chosen of Mystra, so apparently there's some leeway as to where souls go.
krownhunter07 08-29-08, 11:58 PM	Completely agree. It'd be like Joe Human worshipping Torm, only to find out that Torm is -actually- a halfling deity. The whole thing about Sehanine is also just as weird... but Aerdrie Feyna... "her" worshippers don't even apparently go to Arvandor. That's just bizarre from a cultural standpoint, because it would split up the whole idea that elves rejoin the greater family of Fey-ness when they cross over to the other side. The very nature of faith has been retconned. Who said they don't go to Aravandor? You are adding in things that aren't there. By Corellon's will she was allowed to be there, thus his people that worshiped her would go to Aravandor. Unless you know something I don't?
Charles Phipps 08-29-08, 11:59 PM	Actually, that would make little sense anyway since most souls don't go to the deities realms in the first place anymore. The not-especially religious now all go to Kelemvor. Who I imagine has them dust things.
krownhunter07 08-30-08, 12:01 AM	I was speaking of the eons before the spellplague, not after... things have changed.
Mystrasdance 08-30-08, 12:03 AM	Who said they don't go to Aravandor? You are adding in things that aren't there. By Corellon's will she was allowed to be there, thus his people that worshiped her would go to Aravandor. Unless you know something I don't? Her AVATAR is there not her. There is something completely different between and avatar and the true form of a God. And yes i will admit that it is speculation...i can only go by the only source book i have and the past ones i have, and unless souls are being delt with differently a gods worshipper is taken to ITS home plane, not one it requests to go to. Arvandor is NOT Sune's home plane just a fraking vacation spot apparently
krownhunter07 08-30-08, 12:05 AM	It is HC's home plane, however.
Charles Phipps 08-30-08, 12:05 AM	Her AVATAR is there not her. There is something completely different between and avatar and the true form of a God. And yes i will admit that it is speculation...i can only go by the only source book i have and the past ones i have, and unless souls are being delt with differently a gods worshipper is taken to ITS home plane, not one it requests to go to. Arvandor is NOT Sune's home plane just a fraking vacation spot apparently Yes, but she's ALWAYS been Hanelli. So, so it's interesting to question whether she's going to only now start taking them to a different plane of existence. Besides, new Realms would have people faithful to the Seldarine taken to Arvandor and only especially faithful to Sune/Hanelli go to her realm.
Therise 08-30-08, 12:16 AM	Yes, but she's ALWAYS been Hanelli. So, so it's interesting to question whether she's going to only now start taking them to a different plane of existence. This essentially means that Hanali was always a lie. And not only that, but that Corellon allowed the lie. Why? With Hanali / Sune being a "good" goddess, why the ugliness of a lie compounded over tens of thousands of years to an entire race of elves? Or is this a jab at beauty being essentially false, requiring the lie of a false face? Good gods lie to millions of worshippers? Really?
Mystrasdance 08-30-08, 12:23 AM	Yes, but she's ALWAYS been Hanelli. So, so it's interesting to question whether she's going to only now start taking them to a different plane of existence. Besides, new Realms would have people faithful to the Seldarine taken to Arvandor and only especially faithful to Sune/Hanelli go to her realm. If she's always been Hanelli then she's always taken them to the Gates of the Moon. You cant flip flop 1 always for another always whenever you feel it appropriate. If its being retaconned all the way then everything changes too. I do agree with your point though that lay worshippers probably do get sent to Arvandor being more under the purview Correllon imo as they worship the Seldarine and as the leader he would hold sway just a thought. @Krown if Sune is or always has been Hanelli then the Gates of the Moon is her home. Hanelli is an Avatar and avatar has no home its a part of a god that travels the various planes in leu of the god itself. I know your gonna quote the passage at me that says Correllon let her set up shop there to extend her power...all this means to me is she has a permanent avatar set up there for some reason it may mean she takes her worshippers there but as i understand the Realms a priests soul goes to where its god resides.
krownhunter07 08-30-08, 12:28 AM	...Does canon say elves go to Aravandor... yes. Does newly released info state they do not, no. There is only a problem here if you make one, IMO. It doesn't have to be complicated.
Mystrasdance 08-30-08, 12:28 AM	This essentially means that Hanali was always a lie. And not only that, but that Corellon allowed the lie. Why? With Hanali / Sune being a "good" goddess, why the ugliness of a lie compounded over tens of thousands of years to an entire race of elves? Or is this a jab at beauty being essentially false, requiring the lie of a false face? Good gods lie to millions of worshippers? Really? Exactly! Even as flighty as Sune is i have a hard time thinking she would really do this. And i believe it of Correllon even less the Seldarine i thought were an honorable lot and lying to every elf for thousands of years is just pretty dark for "good" gods
Mystrasdance 08-30-08, 12:34 AM	...Does canon say elves go to Aravandor... yes. Does newly released info state they do not, no. There is only a problem here if you make one, IMO. It doesn't have to be complicated. Canon also says that priests souls go to their gods home plane upon death. thats is the issue here. I am not making it difficult WoTC is. Regardless I am trying to have a civilized discussion so as to try and have something to bring my DM for ideas when we play is all. He prefers to have a few to know around rather than my skewed version as it is well known i am a serious elf lover and therefore tend to get a bit over protective of them.:angelhide
Charles Phipps 08-30-08, 12:35 AM	This essentially means that Hanali was always a lie. And not only that, but that Corellon allowed the lie. Why? With Hanali / Sune being a "good" goddess, why the ugliness of a lie compounded over tens of thousands of years to an entire race of elves? Or is this a jab at beauty being essentially false, requiring the lie of a false face? Good gods lie to millions of worshipers? Really? What lie? She's the Goddess of Love, she never claimed otherwise. It's not the place of elves to question her ways. If she decided that it was better for elves to not know that she was also a goddess to humans then you can bet there was a darn good reason. Maybe Narnia has poisoned me but Aslan doesn't say who he is on Earth and is ridiculously cryptic at times but that's his prerogative as a deity. It's not a lie, it's a Certain Point of View. if Sune is or always has been Hanelli then the Gates of the Moon is her home. Hanelli is an Avatar and avatar has no home its a part of a god that travels the various planes in leu of the god itself. I know your gonna quote the passage at me that says Correllon let her set up shop there to extend her power...all this means to me is she has a permanent avatar set up there for some reason it may mean she takes her worshippers there but as i understand the Realms a priests soul goes to where its god resides. The best way to look to here is to remember that Forgotten Realms rules are rarely absolute in regards to storytelling, either in novels or flavor text. For example, Elves never should have gone to Arvandor to begin with because in 1E they should all be going to the plane of their alignment whether they worshiped a specific pantheon or not. Likewise, Khelben went to Arvandor despite his being a servant of Mystra. The designers rarely treat the rules as absolute, why should readers?
krownhunter07 08-30-08, 12:41 AM	Canon also says that priests souls go to their gods home plane upon death. thats is the issue here. I am not making it difficult WoTC is. Regardless I am trying to have a civilized discussion so as to try and have something to bring my DM for ideas when we play is all. He prefers to have a few to know around rather than my skewed version as it is well known i am a serious elf lover and therefore tend to get a bit over protective of them.:angelhide Yes, but having a place in the Seldarine meant it is her home plane, when it comes to the elves that worship her. ...I'm partial to Elves (Eladrin or what have you) as well... My favorite PC is a Bladesinger. I'm just trying to help it make sense for you. Charles Phipps has some great points too.
Mystrasdance 08-30-08, 12:44 AM	Likewise, Khelben went to Arvandor despite his being a servant of Mystra. The designers rarely treat the rules as absolute, why should readers? Can u please tell me where u see this cause i havent read it, its probably in the waterdeep section which i havent read all the way through. Regardless here is a probable answer. 1. Dweomerheart has been destroyed with Mystra, there is no other place for him to go but to Kelevemor. 2. Khelben does have elf blood if i recall that may be his in card along with all his service over the years. I may be stretching but it has some logic to it I am not claiming to be right here this is serious speculation
Mystrasdance 08-30-08, 12:49 AM	Yes, but having a place in the Seldarine meant it is her home plane, when it comes to the elves that worship her. ...I'm partial to Elves (Eladrin or what have you) as well... My favorite PC is a Bladesinger. I'm just trying to help it make sense for you. Charles Phipps has some great points too. Ahhh bladesingers i wish they'd make a comeback they along with high mages are my favorite PC classes. You guys do have valid points i am just responding in kind i try to be flexible with rulings i'm just having a harder time than usual dealing with these paticualr ones as i told my DM it'll come with time but right now i'm having a WTF moment.
krownhunter07 08-30-08, 12:54 AM	I hope Bladesingers are either a PP for Swordmages or, better yet, a PP for a Defender/Controller combo (like Fighter/Wizard or Swordmage/Wizard) Sorry, off topic, I know. *ahem* Personally, I look at it this way; The Elven race as a whole is my fav, so I just put things how I see fit for my enjoyment.
Mystrasdance 08-30-08, 12:57 AM	I hope Bladesingers are either a PP for Swordmages or, better yet, a PP for a Defender/Controller combo (like Fighter/Wizard or Swordmage/Wizard) Sorry, off topic, I know. *ahem* Personally, I look at it this way; The Elven race as a whole is my fav, so I just put things how I see fit for my enjoyment. Indeed on both counts but i love the stories that come out. When Evermeet island of Elves came out i swear to god i almost creamed because here finally was something i could hold onto and use. And this 4e version has tainted that for me i will probably fanagle something together but i dont know i'd like it to be in the books too :P
krownhunter07 08-30-08, 12:58 AM	There will be more books...
Mystrasdance 08-30-08, 01:08 AM	for sure there will but now when i read the name of what i thought was a god of an elightened(sp?) race i will see but a lie and that is the heart of my problems bah enough of this degenerate crying lol its a fantasy world after all...
Charles Phipps 08-30-08, 01:19 AM	for sure there will but now when i read the name of what i thought was a god of an elightened(sp?) race i will see but a lie and that is the heart of my problems bah enough of this degenerate crying lol its a fantasy world after all... Elves? Enlightened? Are you sure we're playing the same setting? The Elves number a Trickster God amongst their ranks. But seriously, Forgotten Realms' Elves are just as unpleasant as the humans of the Realms.
SmartPaladin 08-30-08, 01:22 AM	Elves? Enlightened? Are you sure we're playing the same setting? The Elves number a Trickster God amongst their ranks. But seriously, Forgotten Realms' Elves are just as unpleasant as the humans of the Realms. *snort* All races are as unpleasant as any other race. I've seen heartless bigot Elves act more foul then the most black hearted Drow, granted, I've seen many diffrant races act kind and loving to members of others as well... But I think they were all a little drunk or maybe stoned...
Charles Phipps 08-30-08, 01:56 AM	Exactly. Usually, elves are either pure good and bunnies or bigotted snotty evil. Elves of the Realms are wonderfully realized in they're a balance of both.
Deama 08-30-08, 03:38 AM	And yet every Elf I have ever played in the realms that was not a Drow has followed the ways of Fenmarel to a T, I have never cared for the rest of the Seldarine and honestly cared less for Hanali but to me the retcon seems wrong. As to my Drow there were 4 deities I would follow most notably Mask which we have to future to find out what has happened to him. Not all elves are good or evil there are a rare few neutral and it is those that in my opinion sway the balance in one direction or the other. Now when I view the elven race as a whole I include the drow and the long forgotten shadow elves(late 1st ed if memory serves) onto topic now I think we may all be holding off the big picture here the book makes what it says clear as day but at the same time it leave enough room for doubt for us DMs to go in and change to our likings example Hanali/Sune it clearly says in Sune's entry that she uses the form of Hanali and it does so again in the before mentioned passage(too lazy tonight to go grab book so I will scroll and quote) Originally Posted by FRCG, pg 131 'The Arvandor Gate' In an effort to learn the truth of their goddess's identity, the priests of Hanali Celanil opened a portal to Aravandor out in the Vine Vale. The casting was successful, but they learned the deity existed in Aravandor only as an avatar of Sune, who was allowed by Corellon to extend her power from the Gates of the Moon. Now even reading those two passages there is still just enough room for doubt for someone like say myself to instead of Sune always having been Hanali but since Hanali, Sehanine, and Aerdrie all no longer exist(I would put it this way) because they have done a permimerge into Angharradh, Sune made the announcement to try and ease those worshipers and left an avatar with Corellon's consent and has since used the name and guise of Hanali... mind you this is how I would and will deal with this change
Lord Karsus 08-30-08, 01:20 PM	:: Inserts plug to Elves of Faerūn here, and wanders off ::
Mystrasdance 08-30-08, 02:06 PM	Elves? Enlightened? Are you sure we're playing the same setting? The Elves number a Trickster God amongst their ranks. But seriously, Forgotten Realms' Elves are just as unpleasant as the humans of the Realms. Lol i was talking about their gods not the race good lord i know the elves are a range of bad and good 1 Trickster and 1 revenge god(now Exarchs btw) does not mean that the rest wernt...especially Correllon, what used to be Hanelli, Sehanine, and Aerdrie
krownhunter07 08-30-08, 02:09 PM	Who they are hasn't changed, just our understanding of who they are.
Charles Phipps 08-30-08, 02:42 PM	Yeah, I actually am picking up some fun fantasy racism here. Like the players are appalled their awesome elf gods have been sullied by humanity.
Mystrasdance 08-30-08, 03:42 PM	Yeah, I actually am picking up some fun fantasy racism here. Like the players are appalled their awesome elf gods have been sullied by humanity. hey i admit it i always see the elf gods being the epitome of what human gods should aspire to be. I dont play fantasy games to be a human for goodness sake i am one. Its like when i'm asked why i dont play a nonmagical class...i tell them i don't because if i wanted to be a fighter i'd have joined the army.....
AskaniPsion 08-30-08, 04:24 PM	hey i admit it i always see the elf gods being the epitome of what human gods should aspire to be. I dont play fantasy games to be a human for goodness sake i am one. Its like when i'm asked why i dont play a nonmagical class...i tell them i don't because if i wanted to be a fighter i'd have joined the army..... Hehe I am the same way....I never play a human nor a non-magical class. I also saw the elven gods as to be more honest to the elves.....but I guess that isn't so in 4E. Next they will say Corellon wears dresses and knickers :D
Lord Karsus 08-30-08, 04:52 PM	Next they will say Corellon wears dresses and knickers :D -Well, being...omnisexual (I can't remember the correct term. It's the one where you are neither male or female, and I believe it begins with either 'A', or 'P'), he is both male, female, both, and neither. So, if he wanted to wear a dress, she could. :P
Iluvrien 08-30-08, 05:02 PM	-Well, being...omnisexual (I can't remember the correct term. It's the one where you are neither male or female, and I believe it begins with either 'A', or 'P'), he is both male, female, both, and neither. So, if he wanted to wear a dress, she could. :P "Androgynous", possibly LK?
Lord Karsus 08-30-08, 05:04 PM	-Yes! Thank you, that was the one.
Charles Phipps 08-30-08, 05:07 PM	Yeah, for me, Selune is one of the Gods of the Gods. She and Corellon are "Elder Gods" I can imagine the Elvish God of Trickery approaching her and getting burned away by her glory. Elves might honestly be better than humans but they're insignificant before the gods, any gods.
Therise 08-30-08, 05:09 PM	-Well, being...omnisexual (...) That's hawt! ;) :P :D
AskaniPsion 08-30-08, 05:32 PM	Maybe it was CORELLON dressing up as Sehanine!!! Yeah that is it!! He was stealing dresses from Sune! :P
AskaniPsion 08-30-08, 05:33 PM	"Androgynous", possibly LK? Corellon is the David Bowie of Toril!! :D
Romulus LoneWolf 08-30-08, 05:35 PM	...Okay, I don't really care one way or another, but if I wanted to integrate the Seldarine into the Forgotten Realms, I'd just make them Exarchs of Corellon. Or rmaybe have Corellon be the sole survivor of the pantheon's decimation by the Spellplague. Either way, I don't really see what's gotten so many people in an uproar. But then, I wasn't much of a Realms fan 'till 4e.
AskaniPsion 08-30-08, 05:44 PM	Either way, I don't really see what's gotten so many people in an uproar. But then, I wasn't much of a Realms fan 'till 4e. The Seldarine have a well established background in the Realms especially with the novel "Evermeet". The new changes with the Seldarine conflict with what was written it. Hence why some fans are angry about the changes.
Therise 08-30-08, 06:10 PM	...Okay, I don't really care one way or another, but if I wanted to integrate the Seldarine into the Forgotten Realms, I'd just make them Exarchs of Corellon. Or rmaybe have Corellon be the sole survivor of the pantheon's decimation by the Spellplague. Technically, it'd be "re-integrate them back in". ;) Either way, I don't really see what's gotten so many people in an uproar. But then, I wasn't much of a Realms fan 'till 4e. No offense, but that's probably why you don't see it.
sfdragon 08-30-08, 09:11 PM	...Okay, I don't really care one way or another, but if I wanted to integrate the Seldarine into the Forgotten Realms, I'd just make them Exarchs of Corellon. Or rmaybe have Corellon be the sole survivor of the pantheon's decimation by the Spellplague. Either way, I don't really see what's gotten so many people in an uproar. But then, I wasn't much of a Realms fan 'till 4e. they were in the realms and greyhawk both, and a different settings had other gods. just like eberrsuxs has to many laughful good deities and the silverflame needs to be exstiguished. I dont see the point in them, but then you see i hugely hate eberron( aka eberrsux or uberrsux). and that might be why I dont
Charles Phipps 08-30-08, 09:15 PM	I've seen many complaints. Eberron being too lawful good is a new one.
DarksideAvatar 08-30-08, 09:50 PM	If Gruumsh is Talos...why is Talos not missing an eye? And Corellon as a non-male/non-female god flies in the face of plausibly believable theology: Gods that have children with each other are strongly either make or female, not both in our own theology. Would a god expect to have many male folowers if he is supposed to be a war god yet isnt strong and masculine, something for male warriors to aspire and look up to? In this case we speak of Lolth and Corellon. Lolth is strongly female, and Corellon is not Male? Stupid and not plausibly believable. Again, the two examples above showing that much of these changes were arbitrary and not very well thought out. Notice nay sayers: Above = proof.
Charles Phipps 08-30-08, 10:00 PM	A friend of mine had that same problem. However, in RL reality, there are in fact some gods who are hermaphrodites and/or sexless. In the case of Corellon, I assume he's like Gozer from Ghostbusters. "I thought Gozer was a man!" "It's whatever he wants to be."
Gruubii 08-30-08, 10:25 PM	My 13 years of play Mystran Priest, wonders WTF yo, himself.
Lord Karsus 08-31-08, 12:58 AM	If Gruumsh is Talos...why is Talos not missing an eye? -He is.
sfdragon 08-31-08, 01:17 AM	and his favored weapon is a spear
Romulus LoneWolf 08-31-08, 08:38 AM	they were in the realms and greyhawk both, and a different settings had other gods. just like eberrsuxs has to many laughful good deities and the silverflame needs to be exstiguished. I dont see the point in them, but then you see i hugely hate eberron( aka eberrsux or uberrsux). and that might be why I dont Duly noted. I'm a big Eberron fan myself, but I know it's not everyone's speed. Anyways, like I was saying earlier, if you want to put the Seldarine back in, I sure as heck don't see why not. I never play campaign settings right out of the box myself anyway.
AskaniPsion 08-31-08, 10:45 AM	-He is. Yep and I believe he wore an eye patch. Garrrrrrr! :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-31-08, 06:09 PM	Nowhere does it say that Elves have never went to Aravandor. Yet, nowhere (that I am aware of) has it been said the Elves went to Aravandor with the intent of knowing the identity of their Deity's, either. Is that in the old lore? If not, what's the problem? Actually, I have to agree with Therise that that's a bit of a stretch.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-31-08, 06:14 PM	Yeah, I actually am picking up some fun fantasy racism here. Like the players are appalled their awesome elf gods have been sullied by humanity. For me, it has nothing to do with that.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-31-08, 06:17 PM	Would a god expect to have many male folowers if he is supposed to be a war god yet isnt strong and masculine, something for male warriors to aspire and look up to? Well, Corellon is strong. As for masculinity? Different cultures attach different meanings and levels of importance to it.:)
AskaniPsion 08-31-08, 06:34 PM	Well, Corellon is strong. As for masculinity? Different cultures attach different meanings and levels of importance to it.:) Corellon is a modern "sensitive" guy :D
krownhunter07 08-31-08, 08:46 PM	Corellon took on the 'Male' personification in FR since he was with the future demon queen and stayed that way whilst with his later consorts. I thought it was core that had him as either/or for the most part. It doesn't seem to be the case in 4e, anyways... I like that, seeing as he has (and has had) a queen for a long time.
Charles Phipps 08-31-08, 09:35 PM	Actually, the issue of Corellon's asexuality has come up before in our games. One of our player characters has a long standing sexual affair with Corellon. Mostly because, again, the gods are a horny bunch in Universe-616. He is male, Corellon during their affair is female, and they've even had a child together. One of the countless hundreds of Aasimar running around Universe-616 of course. It was a joke for a while that none of the player characters realized Corellon was a woman during the affair.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-31-08, 09:36 PM	Corellon is a modern "sensitive" guy :D I wouldn't say that's inaccurate, for sure.:)
krownhunter07 08-31-08, 09:38 PM	...A child of a god wouldn't be an Aasmiar, would it?
Charles Phipps 08-31-08, 09:39 PM	It's questionable in FR. Technically, they should be Rank-1 Demigods but the Mulhorandi children were said to be Aasimar. Since I didn't want a huge number of Demigods running around my Realms, I went with the later interpretation, which allowed a handy origin for a lot of Aasimar in my Realms to match the large number of Tieflings.
Therise 08-31-08, 09:47 PM	...A child of a god wouldn't be an Aasmiar, would it? If we're speaking 3E-ish full deities, their half-offspring could be anything from a normal being (human, elf, whatever the other parent was) to an Aasimar, or perhaps a half-Celestial (depending on the deity). Whatever the DM allows and the player requests, within the bounds of logic. For a half-Celestial child, a more powerful parent would be necessary than for a generic plane-touched child (like an Aasimar), but as a DM I'd allow more "room" for variance with a full deity parent.
krownhunter07 08-31-08, 09:49 PM	Yeah.. I was thinking any child of a Deity would be (or become) a Demi power...
Therise 08-31-08, 09:52 PM	Yeah.. I was thinking any child of a Deity would be (or become) a Demi power... In theory, yep. Like Xvim. But I'd imagine at least a time when they were semi-mortal-ish, to allow for (or not) an ascension with Ao's agreement (or not).
Charles Phipps 08-31-08, 10:25 PM	Yeah.. I was thinking any child of a Deity would be (or become) a Demi power... Another canonical example is the Seven Sisters were the literal children of Mystra (or at least someone she was possessing at the time) that weren't Demigods either. Honestly, I never liked Half-Gods being Rank 1 deities. They should have been Quasi-deities at the most. Even then, it seemed way overpowered for the Greek version. But yes, it was in my campaign and I call the shots as Ao's boss there. :D
krownhunter07 08-31-08, 10:29 PM	I like your idea, it just made me think if my first D&D PC... (AD&D). I was the son of Corellon and the Hag! :eek: But was mortal for a time along with other 'godchilds' that were put onto the world to decide it's fate... fun times...
Lord Karsus 09-01-08, 09:37 PM	Corellon took on the 'Male' personification in FR since he was with the future demon queen and stayed that way whilst with his later consorts. I thought it was core that had him as either/or for the most part. It doesn't seem to be the case in 4e, anyways... I like that, seeing as he has (and has had) a queen for a long time. -Nope. He's androgynous.
Mystrasdance 09-02-08, 01:22 AM	-Nope. He's androgynous. Well maybe in ya'lls games but shoot i get enough gay jokes from my group with my elf loving. So i made sure to make Correllon MALE...otherwise he'd be the cosmic drag queen of our D&D world
Charles Phipps 09-02-08, 01:25 AM	It's not exactly Drag Queen when you have no gender as human beings call it. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f350/Willowhugger/Fantasy%20Artwork/wallpaper_world_of_warcraft_the_bur.jpg Corellon on a good day! Corellon: I feel pretty.
Mystrasdance 09-02-08, 01:27 AM	i know i know its just and ongoing and very tired joke is all..so i got sick of hearing it
Lord Karsus 09-02-08, 01:31 AM	-Was that a D&D is like World of Warcraft reference!! -GAAHHH!!! BAD!!!!! -I just kid. ;)
AskaniPsion 09-02-08, 01:42 AM	It's not exactly Drag Queen when you have no gender as human beings call it. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f350/Willowhugger/Fantasy%20Artwork/wallpaper_world_of_warcraft_the_bur.jpg Corellon on a good day! Corellon: I feel pretty. Corellon needs to manscape those eyebrows of his! hehe ;)
Charles Phipps 09-02-08, 01:51 AM	I agree. Of course, we knew that Corellon was into Glam Rock a long time ago. But yes, I'm surprised at how many people really take offense at Corellon=Man and Woman. One of my Game Masters refused to even consider the idea.
Deama 09-02-08, 03:15 AM	you know I don't think I have said anything on that point but then really I don't care too much about getting into the arguments that the concept of androgynous gods(for those unfamiliar with the word here is the wiki for it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgyny) now I will admit I never knew the full meaning of the word and probably never will but I have always understood the concept of it when I started studying mythology. As to using this term for Corellon I can see it but in my worlds as a DM he has always been masculine with feminine traits but a male none the less and I will not change that because someone tells me I am wrong. There are gods in the world myths that are androgynous or better wording would be hermaphrodites but there are also people who are and that is how the world is so how is it hard to understand that is a possibility for a story world such as Abeir-Toril? Though I believe there does need to exist a greater number of non-androgynous/hermaphrodite deities then androgynous/hermaphrodite exist for speaking from the point of view of someone who is not looking for an argument but wouldn't mind debating this it is extremely improbable for all deities in existence both mythologically and story-line speaking to be so.
MerrikCale 09-02-08, 06:14 PM	is it wrong that I find him....I mean, her.....kinda hot?
GreenKnight 09-02-08, 06:31 PM	Yes. You will report to room 302 for reindoctrination. Sit in the blue chair.
AskaniPsion 09-02-08, 07:35 PM	Corellon is the pimp daddy of the Realms - just think about it.....he had THREE goddesses as his consorts! :cool:
Charles Phipps 09-02-08, 07:50 PM	As to using this term for Corellon I can see it but in my worlds as a DM he has always been masculine with feminine traits but a male none the less and I will not change that because someone tells me I am wrong. There are gods in the world myths that are androgynous or better wording would be hermaphrodites but there are also people who are and that is how the world is so how is it hard to understand that is a possibility for a story world such as Abeir-Toril? Though I believe there does need to exist a greater number of non-androgynous/hermaphrodite deities then androgynous/hermaphrodite exist for speaking from the point of view of someone who is not looking for an argument but wouldn't mind debating this it is extremely improbable for all deities in existence both mythologically and story-line speaking to be so. Except, this isn't Earth. This is the Forgotten Realms. No one is saying Gruumsh is walking around as a girl, however, Mystra certainly forced Elminster to become Elmara for a couple of decades. Likewise, it's canonically stated that Corellon appears as often as a woman as a man. He's not a hermaphrodite, he just has no gender as we understand it.
Lord Karsus 09-03-08, 12:51 AM	-No deities have sexes. They're just globs of divine energy. They can have genders, though.
DrowBattlemind 09-03-08, 04:39 AM	All I know is that while I'm going to be picking up the FR Players Guide for mechanics and the main 4EFRCG for plot ideas (which I've already done), I'm making MY OWN Forgotten Realms, and to heck with roughly 25% of this "Returned Abier" storyline (OH, NO, YOU AIN'T TAKIN' AWAY MY MULHORAND!) and some of these deific mergers. Most of the Seldarine may be Exarchs now, but I'm NOT merging them "just because".
DarksideAvatar 09-03-08, 04:43 AM	Corellon is a modern "sensitive" guy :D = wussy :)
DarksideAvatar 09-03-08, 04:53 AM	I agree. Of course, we knew that Corellon was into Glam Rock a long time ago. But yes, I'm surprised at how many people really take offense at Corellon=Man and Woman. One of my Game Masters refused to even consider the idea. It really depends on where your core parallels come from when talking about this. For myself, I think of Norse gods like Thor and Odin who were very masculine and portrayed the highest ideal for men to achieve, hence gender indentification. The thing is, there's always people pushing the male/female thing with certain gods. I do have something thought provoking though: Gods of beauty are ALWAYS exclusively female. Why? Because thats something for women to aspire to and Identify with. So why can't the strong elven warrior god always be male? Does he have to lack that quality that men want to aspire to and identify with? That quality being Male? Sorry, but if you are both genders you arent male, you are something else. The dictionary and anatomy tell us that.
Keveras 09-03-08, 06:18 AM	They can have genders, though. Apparently, Mystra has no gender, as this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fp_gallery/fp1/Mystra_p51.jpg) pic shows. Regarding Corellon. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dd_gallery/dd1/Corellon_p63.jpg Now tell me what exactly he...uhh...it is.
AskaniPsion 09-03-08, 07:11 AM	Apparently, Mystra has no gender, as this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fp_gallery/fp1/Mystra_p51.jpg) pic shows. Regarding Corellon. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dd_gallery/dd1/Corellon_p63.jpg Now tell me what exactly he...uhh...it is. AWFUL picture :yuck:
Lord Karsus 09-03-08, 11:32 AM	Apparently, Mystra has no gender, as this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fp_gallery/fp1/Mystra_p51.jpg) pic shows. -Well, no, she has no sex. Gender is psychological, while sex is physical. Everyone has a gender (or multiple genders, or whatever other strange things are out there). Regarding Corellon. [picture] Now tell me what exactly he...uhh...it is. -Whoa, is that in a D&D book!
Leiril 09-03-08, 11:40 AM	Now tell me what exactly he...uhh...it is. Without feet and really ugly, a little bit thin around the waist (Araushnee and the rest of his consorts seemed to be not so god cooks). :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-03-08, 11:45 AM	I do have something thought provoking though: Gods of beauty are ALWAYS exclusively female. In fantasy worlds? No. Greyhawk has a male god of beauty (don't recall his name, though). Probably not in the real world, either, given that thousands of real world gods have existed for thousands of cultures.
Lord Karsus 09-03-08, 11:46 AM	I do have something thought provoking though: Gods of beauty are ALWAYS exclusively female. Why? Because thats something for women to aspire to and Identify with. -Lathander is a deity of beauty, and he has a male gender. Sorry, but if you are both genders you arent male, you are something else. The dictionary and anatomy tell us that. -Since we're evoking the dictionary now, please, look up the definition of 'gender'. 'Gender' has to do with psychology, whereas 'sex' has to do with physiology and anatomy. Gender wise, one can be female, but have male sexual organs.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-03-08, 11:47 AM	Sorry, but if you are both genders you arent male, you are something else. The dictionary and anatomy tell us that. Do gods have (or need) an anatomy?
Leiril 09-03-08, 11:51 AM	Do gods have (or need) an anatomy? Why not? How can they court eachother (or let me ask, where would be the fun for them, if they don't have anatomy ;) ) be jealous of each other (and so killing a rival).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-03-08, 11:52 AM	Why not? How can they court eachother (or let me ask, where would be the fun for them, if they don't have anatomy ;) ) be jealous of each other. It's one thing to take humanoid forms for whatever desired purpose, but I honestly can't think of a reason why a god (even the FR gods) would need a human-like anatomy.:)
Lord Karsus 09-03-08, 12:00 PM	Do gods have (or need) an anatomy? -No, no they don't. They're just globs of divine energy, with no true forms. Thus, deities don't have sexes. They do have genders, however.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-03-08, 12:04 PM	-No, no they don't. They're just globs of divine energy, with no true forms. Thus, deities don't have sexes. They do have genders, however. And they don't have to eat (no need for a digestive system). They don't need any sensory organs. No need for legs, because they don't need to walk. And so on...:)
Keveras 09-03-08, 12:11 PM	-Well, no, she has no sex. Gender is psychological, while sex is physical. Everyone has a gender (or multiple genders, or whatever other strange things are out there). Jep, that's clear, of course. I was rather hinting at the ugly pic. Mystra is supposed to be one of the most beautiful deities in the Realms, but that pic (especially the face) is horrible. -Whoa, is that in a D&D book! 3e Deities & Demigods. Nothing less.
Lord Karsus 09-03-08, 12:46 PM	And they don't have to eat (no need for a digestive system). They don't need any sensory organs. No need for legs, because they don't need to walk. And so on...:) -Right. They're just energy, and that's all. They don't have true forms, as evidence by deities seeing each other differently, and them consciously choosing what forms they want to appear in. 3e Deities & Demigods. Nothing less. -Makes me happy I don't have that one. Think of it: Had Deities and [Demideities] been purchased instead of Faiths and Pantheons, I might not be sitting here talking to everyone right now! My life would be so different! And, for the worse! :(
Charles Phipps 09-03-08, 01:04 PM	I use the Stargate analogy. The Ancients in Stargate (and the Orii) are gods in FR. The Ancients CAN assume human form when and if they want, mostly for the purposes of chasing after Sammantha Carter. They don't normally use this form.
Keveras 09-03-08, 01:06 PM	Faiths & Pantheons is way better than D&D, anyway. And not just the artwork. Actually, there are some rather good pics in it. So it was the right decision, at all points.
Keveras 09-03-08, 01:08 PM	I use the Stargate analogy. The Ancients in Stargate (and the Orii) are gods in FR. You mean the Alterans, don't you ;)
Charles Phipps 09-03-08, 01:16 PM	I don't watch Atlantis.
GreenKnight 09-03-08, 01:26 PM	That name was introduced in SG-1.
BrennonGoldeye 09-10-08, 10:25 AM	So i dont have the time to read all 40 odd pages but was just wondering if anyone had brought up the fact that the Seldarine are older than the gods of humans and therefore iSune isnt the real goddess, she is just the human version of Hannali, etc etc etc. :)
Lord Karsus 09-10-08, 12:40 PM	-Yes.
AskaniPsion 09-10-08, 02:43 PM	So i dont have the time to read all 40 odd pages but was just wondering if anyone had brought up the fact that the Seldarine are older than the gods of humans and therefore iSune isnt the real goddess, she is just the human version of Hannali, etc etc etc. :) Yep been brought up many times...including all the facts in the novel "Evermeet"....basically it has all been retconned. The "elven" gods have been basically lying to all the elves the whole time. :mad: Only Corellon and Angharradh are the only "true" elven gods now....most of the Seldarine have been reduced to exarches or been revealed as "imposters".
Lord Karsus 09-10-08, 03:12 PM	So i dont have the time to read all 40 odd pages but was just wondering if anyone had brought up the fact that the Seldarine are older than the gods of humans and therefore iSune isnt the real goddess, she is just the human version of Hannali, etc etc etc. :) -Oh, and over the course of all of those pages, we also apparently deduced that I am a Love Pirate. Really.
ikki 09-10-08, 04:17 PM	-Yes. Y2K? Y1,385K ~Y2K on those wotc pentium processors :D
RUMPLESTIX 09-10-08, 05:38 PM	-Lathander is a deity of beauty, and he has a male gender. -Since we're evoking the dictionary now, please, look up the definition of 'gender'. 'Gender' has to do with psychology, whereas 'sex' has to do with physiology and anatomy. Gender wise, one can be female, but have male sexual organs. Words have more than one meaning, in most dictionaries reading on farther down will give the other meaning: gender=sex. Older, but still in use. Both are valid, even if one is not the prime definition any longer.
Lord Karsus 09-10-08, 06:10 PM	Y1,385K ~Y2K on those wotc pentium processors :D Y1.358K crashes all processors using the Midnight Operating System. Words have more than one meaning, in most dictionaries reading on farther down will give the other meaning: gender=sex. Older, but still in use. Both are valid, even if one is not the prime definition any longer. -In the vernacular, gender = sex. But, in actuality, gender =/= sex. The two are related, which causes people to use them interchangeably, but they don't have the same meaning. Sex deals with physical anatomy (male sex organs or female sex organs), while gender deals with sociological/psychological implications and mannerisms that each sex is characteristic of.
baneofelves 09-10-08, 06:38 PM	I hate to be the harbinger of terrible news, but a recent post by Rich Baker has confirmed that besides Corellon Larethian, The Seldarine are no more in 4ED forgotten realms. Sehanine Moonbow is going to be the elven name for the Faerunian goddess Selune. He goes on to say that most other deities of The Seldarine will also just be elven names of various human Faerunian gods and goddesses. After reading this ludicrous statement I almost vomited in my mouth. So basically 30,000 years of elven history has been erased in the blink of an eye. The deific events in Evermeet: Island of Elves are just going to be ignored, and all the wonderful, years and years of elven history apparently never happened I suppose. So all your Clerics and rangers of Solonor, Sehanine, Hanali, Rillifane, Erevan Ilesere, Labelas, Deep Sashelas and the other members of the elven pantheon are just going to have to worship the human faerunian gods. WoTc has just hammered the last nail in the 4ED coffin for many, many consumer fans. Die $ED, DIE!! WHAAAT?! NO! I wanted to be the one to kill off those frilly, stupid, useless elves! 4th edition STOLE that from me! GRR! (:D ) On a more serious note, that's pretty lame how they just ignored so much history just like that. :nonono:
Lord Karsus 09-10-08, 07:00 PM	WHAAAT?! NO! I wanted to be the one to kill off those frilly, stupid, useless elves! 4th edition STOLE that from me! GRR! (:D ) On a more serious note, that's pretty lame how they just ignored so much history just like that. :nonono: -GEV was...exaggerating. A lot. As always.
baneofelves 09-10-08, 07:03 PM	So does that mean that I can still wage my genocidal war against the elves? (I'm talkin the Dragonlance style elves, each setting has some like 'em. the cool ones will hopefully aid me) :D
Lord Karsus 09-10-08, 07:20 PM	So does that mean that I can still wage my genocidal war against the elves? -Yes.
baneofelves 09-10-08, 07:26 PM	:D :clap: :w00t: :dancin: :smirk:
RUMPLESTIX 09-10-08, 08:41 PM	Y1.358K crashes all processors using the Midnight Operating System. -In the vernacular, gender = sex. But, in actuality, gender =/= sex. The two are related, which causes people to use them interchangeably, but they don't have the same meaning. Sex deals with physical anatomy (male sex organs or female sex organs), while gender deals with sociological/psychological implications and mannerisms that each sex is characteristic of. Seeing as how swx is actually listed as a definition of gender, how are they not the same? You can use gender to mean something other than sex, but sex is still a definition of gender. But we can drop this as it is not much for this thread....
Lord Karsus 09-10-08, 09:00 PM	Seeing as how swx is actually listed as a definition of gender, how are they not the same? Sex: The sum of the structural and functional differences by which the male and female are distinguished. Gender: Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture. -Sex is either male or female. Being of the male sex means having...certain stuff, and being of the female sex means having...certain other stuff. Gender is male, female, both, and possibly even neither (though, I don't see how that'd be possible, in actuality). -Tying this back to the Forgotten Realms, and the Seldarine, Corellon Larethian has no sex. Gender wise, being androgynous, Corellon Larethian is both male and female. Corellon Larethian is normally given a male pronoun, for simplicity. -I feel dirty having written 'sex' so much! :embarrass
SmartPaladin 09-11-08, 03:34 AM	Sex: The sum of the structural and functional differences by which the male and female are distinguished. Gender: Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture. -Sex is either male or female. Being of the male sex means having...certain stuff, and being of the female sex means having...certain other stuff. Gender is male, female, both, and possibly even neither (though, I don't see how that'd be possible, in actuality). -Tying this back to the Forgotten Realms, and the Seldarine, Corellon Larethian has no sex. Gender wise, being androgynous, Corellon Larethian is both male and female. Corellon Larethian is normally given a male pronoun, for simplicity. -I feel dirty having written 'sex' so much! :embarrass Your a dirty, dirty man... *hunts for whip*
Deama 09-11-08, 04:10 AM	@AskaniPsion: Exarchs is not such a bad postioning for those deities considering Exarchs are no less powerful in 4e as lesser deities were in 3.x and earlier editions, Where Gods are no more powerful or less powerful the intermediate deities in those same editions and well greaters are still greaters so nothing to mention there. @all debating sex vs gender: Main Entry: sex Pronunciation: \ˈseks\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Latin sexus Date: 14th century 1: either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures 2: the sum of the structural, functional, and behavioral characteristics of organisms that are involved in reproduction marked by the union of gametes and that distinguish males and females 3 a: sexually motivated phenomena or behavior b: sexual intercourse 4: genitalia Main Entry: gender Pronunciation: \ˈjen-dər\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English gendre, from Anglo-French genre, gendre, from Latin gener-, genus birth, race, kind, gender — more at kin Date: 14th century 1 a: a subclass within a grammatical class (as noun, pronoun, adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (as shape, social rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms b: membership of a word or a grammatical form in such a subclass c: an inflectional form showing membership in such a subclass 2 a: sex <the feminine gender> b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex @baneofelves: If you are hunting Dragonlance elves I will assist as long as you leave Kagonesti out of the to be hunted targets but Silvanesti and Qualinesti may be killed maimed and murdered with open glee, If it is Forgotten Realms elves well Moon elves are nicer to us wood elves but still as stuck up as sun elves so as long as us wood elves are off the list I shall assist there as well.
Khaelieth 09-11-08, 04:42 AM	Gender: Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture. So if I like rams, that makes me a female sheep, gender wise?;p
Keveras 09-11-08, 04:59 AM	@AskaniPsion: Exarchs is not such a bad postioning for those deities considering Exarchs are no less powerful in 4e as lesser deities were in 3.x and earlier editions, Where Gods are no more powerful or less powerful the intermediate deities in those same editions and well greaters are still greaters so nothing to mention there. Uhh, no. As we don't know the exact power level of deities yet, we can only assume how powerful exarchs are in comparison to lesser deities. But should exarchs be as powerful as lesser deities then there would be no real border between mortals and deities, since there are monsters and NPCs who are mightier than exarchs.
Deama 09-11-08, 08:12 AM	And yet those same monsters and NPCs are no more powerful then archfiends which are supposedly weaker then exarchs, the whole problem in 3.x was that they did release a stat block for deities (most) which most people to think that was there total power and comparing those deities (greater included) a PC using epic level progression as well as epic level monsters had power so much greater then deities it almost made you wonder why those stat blocks were released but if you applied the thought of "these stats are only for an aspect/avatar of the deity which is only a fraction of there power that makes more sense" but the problem was too few people embraced that train of thought. well these are my opinions at least.
Keveras 09-11-08, 09:02 AM	And yet those same monsters and NPCs are no more powerful then archfiends which are supposedly weaker then exarchs, the whole problem in 3.x was that they did release a stat block for deities (most) which most people to think that was there total power and comparing those deities (greater included) a PC using epic level progression as well as epic level monsters had power so much greater then deities it almost made you wonder why those stat blocks were released but if you applied the thought of "these stats are only for an aspect/avatar of the deity which is only a fraction of there power that makes more sense" but the problem was too few people embraced that train of thought. well these are my opinions at least. The deities in Deities & Demigods and in Faiths & Pantheons are extremely powerful, to begin with. The problem is, that not one has epic levels in any class and that there's no real interaction between the deity rules and the epic rules. But this doesn't really belong here. Anyway. The Tarrasque, for instance, is more powerful than some archfiends (Yeenoghu). And who said that exarchs are more powerful than archfiends. Honestly, I don't think there's an exarch who is more powerful than Orcus. So in my opinion, the situation looks like this: Monsters/NPCs/Exarchs<Archfiends<Deities
Deama 09-11-08, 09:23 AM	Orcus can not actually be used as an example of an archfiend since he is a demon prince and resides in the abyss and not hell. The Tarrasque has always been a creature with more power then even the greater deities but most of that is due to story line infraction of the creature, as to the books on deities and the epic level hand book though there was no mention of sourcing in the ELPH to the other two, the other two did source back to the ELPH... don't have them open so can't quote atm. as to the archfiends (mind you 6am and no sleep) I do not have the FRCG in front of me but I believe in there it actually bring up the power comparison as like a sentence or two as it goes through the different deific beings and mentions something about the archfiends being the lowest power level of such beings.. Also seeing as there are currently no 4e stat blocks and I honestly hope there never will be for deities there is no true way to judge a deities power level verses a monsters or a NPCs so anything we say on the matter, you, myself or anyone else is mere opinion and speculation on the matter unless a developer comes into the thread and says for sure what the power trade off is.
Keveras 09-11-08, 09:37 AM	Orcus can not actually be used as an example of an archfiend since he is a demon prince and resides in the abyss and not hell. Obviously you're confusing something. Archfiend is a term used for both Archdevils (Asmodeus, etc.) and Demon Princes (Demogorgon, Orcus, etc.). So my example was ok. The Tarrasque has always been a creature with more power then even the greater deities but most of that is due to story line infraction of the creature Not stat-wise. At least not with 3e rules. as to the books on deities and the epic level hand book though there was no mention of sourcing in the ELPH to the other two, the other two did source back to the ELPH... don't have them open so can't quote atm. I'm well aware of this fact. Nonetheless, no deity has epic class levels. as to the archfiends (mind you 6am and no sleep) I do not have the FRCG in front of me but I believe in there it actually bring up the power comparison as like a sentence or two as it goes through the different deific beings and mentions something about the archfiends being the lowest power level of such beings.. Also seeing as there are currently no 4e stat blocks and I honestly hope there never will be for deities there is no true way to judge a deities power level verses a monsters or a NPCs so anything we say on the matter, you, myself or anyone else is mere opinion and speculation on the matter unless a developer comes into the thread and says for sure what the power trade off is. Richard Baker said that Moradin is lvl 38 :)
Deama 09-11-08, 10:02 AM	Obviously you're confusing something. Archfiend is a term used for both Archdevils (Asmodeus, etc.) and Demon Princes (Demogorgon, Orcus, etc.). So my example was ok. I stand corrected here but then again I did stat that I have yet to sleep yet so my brain may not be functioning at full capacity. Not stat-wise. At least not with 3e rules. Seeing as even greater deities could at best put it back to sleep stat-wise it was weaker then some greaters but it did have the rule that made it more immortal then deities I'm well aware of this fact. Nonetheless, no deity has epic class levels. never said they did but a number of them have multiple classes at 20th levelwhich did use the character above 20th level rules out of ELPH that limited BAB and Base Saves but your right and I didn't mean to seem like I was arguing this they d not have epic class levels though some should IMHO Richard Baker said that Moradin is lvl 38 :) I personally haven't seen that so if you don't mind linking it, want to see what else he had to say along with that... just a request.
Keveras 09-11-08, 10:29 AM	I personally haven't seen that so if you don't mind linking it, want to see what else he had to say along with that... just a request. The unofficial 4e information page over at EnWorld doesn't exist anymore, so unless someone had copied this statement, you more or less have to trust me ;)
Lord Karsus 09-11-08, 02:01 PM	Your a dirty, dirty man... *hunts for whip* -I'll...ah..watch out, then. So if I like rams, that makes me a female sheep, gender wise?;p -Are all of you people really that confused? Geeze, what? I learned this in ninth grade psychology.
Lord Karsus 09-11-08, 02:02 PM	I personally haven't seen that so if you don't mind linking it, want to see what else he had to say along with that... just a request. The unofficial 4e information page over at EnWorld doesn't exist anymore, so unless someone had copied this statement, you more or less have to trust me ;) -He stated it in his Ask-The-Author thread. I don't feel like going back and finding it, but I can attest to the fact that this was said.
Khaelieth 09-12-08, 08:06 AM	-Are all of you people really that confused? Geeze, what? I learned this in ninth grade psychology. Was doing mamal physiology then;p