Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Todesherr 11-24-07, 09:39 PM	I always thought statting gods was strange. I liked the abstract abilities of gods in 2.ed (Greater God, create something from nothing, shapechange to anything, etc.)....I hope in 4.ed it is more like that... Anyone agree?
Sir_Shadow 11-25-07, 02:39 AM	This is the basic idea that I've always thought fit any god or goddess in any of my games. But this quote is from the Kalamar main page (so at least someone has the right idea) - The Gods are not Statistics. The gods of the Kingdoms of Kalamar setting are just that - gods. They may work to guide events, but a creature of flesh and blood can no more perceive them or their plans than an ant can understand the universe, and their statistics cannot be measured in terms of game mechanics.
johnkretzer 11-25-07, 03:12 AM	I always thought statting gods was strange. I liked the abstract abilities of gods in 2.ed (Greater God, create something from nothing, shapechange to anything, etc.)....I hope in 4.ed it is more like that... Anyone agree? They have said that they will be no stats for gods...till they write the adventure where the 30th level party goes and kills them....as a capstone for the characters careers.
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 04:14 AM	-I'm all for that. I'd still want some kind of DR scale, though.
Stigger 11-25-07, 11:37 AM	I'm all for statting avatars, but I'd draw the line there.
Zsych 11-25-07, 04:23 PM	... Powerful PCs killing gods is something that I think has always happened(in some games at least), and I'm expecting some interesting powers for 30th level characters in 4E.
GoldDragon 12-05-07, 06:39 AM	I always thought statting gods was strange. I liked the abstract abilities of gods in 2.ed (Greater God, create something from nothing, shapechange to anything, etc.)....I hope in 4.ed it is more like that... Anyone agree? Well, most goddlings and especially the ones of Toril tend to be accended from powerful mortals (or even ones that were just in the right place at right time like Cyric), so statting gods tend to be mostly for thier Avatarial forms. This is actually true from the beginning if you look as Dungeons and Dragons Players Guide and DM Guide to Immortals (TSR 1017xxx1901,1902) it states that when godlings try to enter the Prime Material Plane they came from they instinctively become their formal mortal selves with their immoortal Powers (abeit limited during the Time of Troubles when Ao, (a Overrgod/"Realm Keeper"...check DM Guide to Immortals,it's there) kicked all his godlings asses "down from Heaven" If we are still talking "Kosher" Ao is the Gaurdian of Toril's Realmspace which his "Bosses" assigned him and He is the one that either creates or imports subordinate gaurdians/managers ("gods") or let there be a "free for all" and let deitypes come in on their own ("open system",which Forgotten Realms isn't). Tyr was imported as were most of the "Egyptian" gods, but is If remember my Realmslore right Ao brought "detached Avatars" from Earth Realm (as in they have no contact with the "Prime god" they were created from) while Mystra, Selune, Shar, and "ChuChu" seem to be outright created if not "assended from indegenius Mortal stock" But yeah, not all "godlings" are alike and there are different kinds of Immortals . For example, With collective effort of all the gods of Toril attacking Ao (assuming all of the godlings of Toril could work together) not only would all their collective powers and ability have no effect on Ao (he gave them their powers in most cases,duh) he could very well kick their buts down to Toril again if not just "wink them out of existence" with a mere thought because of his "True Immortal" status....lol Some Gods, like the Eqyptian ones and Greek ones are actually "alternate life forms" or natural Immortals from a parrellel Prime, while Norse gods are Heros that found a way to be long lived (the golden apples) and manipulate life and magic....so yeah, all type of Immortals...the gods of Toril can be Stated while Ao couldn't be
msatran 12-06-07, 12:00 AM	I disagree. I think mess with a god directly should equal squish. In LOTR, no one FIGHTS Sauron. Because if they actually FOUGHT Sauron, they would DIE.
Redrake 12-06-07, 02:04 AM	They are actually creating the base for RSEs on massive scale if they are going to give them to players. If all the players go around killing gods, imagine were the Realms are going next. Spellplague is going to sound like child's toy compared to that.
Stigger 12-06-07, 02:10 AM	Just imagine, instead of the Night of Thirteen Magisters, we could have the Night of Thirteen Gods of Donuts instead... they should have done this years ago really...
Lord Karsus 12-06-07, 08:04 AM	I disagree. I think mess with a god directly should equal squish. In LOTR, no one FIGHTS Sauron. Because if they actually FOUGHT Sauron, they would DIE. -Well, Isoldore (Sp?) did face Sauron in hand-to-hand combat and prevail.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-06-07, 09:51 AM	I won't go so far as to say killing a deity should be impossible under any circumstance, but I'm still not a promoter of turning gods into high-level monsters.
Karsus the Mad 12-06-07, 01:46 PM	I agree 1,000%. Actually more, but there's a character limit...
VengefulGazeofGod 12-07-07, 11:21 AM	I believe deities should never be stated under any circumstance and on a similar note dragons should be nearly as powerful as the current 3.5 deities. It pisses me off when a DM has a party kill a dragon every few levels just to level them up. Fighting a dragon, whether or not it kills you, should be an experience up there with actually meeting your deity....and should rightfully run the risk of both events occurring in the same encounter. :cool:
GoldDragon 12-08-07, 06:53 AM	I disagree. I think mess with a god directly should equal squish. In LOTR, no one FIGHTS Sauron. Because if they actually FOUGHT Sauron, they would DIE. True in most cases, but they found Sauron's weakness and exploited it. Likewise no matter the type of "god" it is it is going to have some kind of weakness. In the case of a Immortal like Ao you have to corner it on it's Home Plane (where it is also at it's Strongest) and then find some way to defeat it to kill it permanently. Ao type Immortals killed in any place other then it's Home Plane will have it's essense leave it's Avatar and skimper back there to recoup before building a new Avatar...assuming you can even defeat the Avatar considering Anti-Magic levels and pretty High Save Scores when Anti-Magic is breached
Karsus the Mad 12-08-07, 03:07 PM	Except Ao has no known home among the planes. Nor any avatars as far as we know.
GoldDragon 12-09-07, 05:12 PM	Except Ao has no known home among the planes. Nor any avatars as far as we know. Of course not, He is a "Overlord" (overgod) which means he, as some relgious people might say, "Exists out of time and Space"....maybe even holding the Forgotten realms as a "globe" in one hand.
GreenKnight 12-09-07, 06:35 PM	Well, as I posted elsewhere, I liked the idea of having statted gods. That way, when a player got mouthy about how he'd start killing gods, I could pull out the gods stats and show them exactly how that god could put them down like a rabid dog. And do it without breaking a sweat, to boot! But with 4E, and with them talking about Level 30 characters killing Greater Gods, I'm not to fond of the idea of statted gods, anymore. To be fair, you'd have to jump through a whole lot of hoops to get it done, but still. I don't want it to happen at all. Not without a PC becoming a LOT more powerful then a Level 30 character, anyway. And if it's possible for Level 30 PC's to kill Greater Gods, then how about Lesser Gods? Or Demigods? How much easier would it be to kill them? Man, I just do NOT like the idea of a religion existing for thousands of years coming to a crashing halt because of a handle of Level 30 schmoes.
Karsus the Mad 12-09-07, 06:51 PM	Of course not, He is a "Overlord" (overgod) which means he, as some relgious people might say, "Exists out of time and Space"....maybe even holding the Forgotten realms as a "globe" in one hand. Thank you GD for saying precisly what I have been *****ing about for the past 4 years.....:) The stars above mean b.it.ch.ing. By GD, for once I do not mean Gothic Dan. I mean Gold Dragon.
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 10:27 AM	Well, as I posted elsewhere, I liked the idea of having statted gods. That way, when a player got mouthy about how he'd start killing gods, I could pull out the gods stats and show them exactly how that god could put them down like a rabid dog. And do it without breaking a sweat, to boot! -Well, you could also do that without deities having stats. I've seen it done (not to my character! I was a bystander!).
GreenKnight 12-10-07, 02:17 PM	-Well, you could also do that without deities having stats. I've seen it done (not to my character! I was a bystander!). Yeah, but when a DM does it that way, it feels a whole lot more like DM fiat. Nobody likes it when the DM turns to them and says "Your character's dead, bub. Start rolling a new one up". At least with gods with stats the DM can say "Ok, Bane attacks you and autohits. He rolls to confirm crit and he does so. You take 200 damage. Now make a DC 225 Fort Save or you die. Didn't make the roll? To bad. You're dead".
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 02:37 PM	Yeah, but when a DM does it that way, it feels a whole lot more like DM fiat. Nobody likes it when the DM turns to them and says "Your character's dead, bub. Start rolling a new one up". At least with gods with stats the DM can say "Ok, Bane attacks you and autohits. He rolls to confirm crit and he does so. You take 200 damage. Now make a DC 225 Fort Save or you die. Didn't make the roll? To bad. You're dead". -Well, seriously, what does a player think is going to happen if they attempt to challenge a deity, and actually get his/her/its attention? :)
GreenKnight 12-10-07, 02:58 PM	Yeah, which is nice to be have stats you can point to and say "See? THIS is why he can put his foot right up your ass without breaking a sweat". By way of example, I used to frequent the Neverwinter Nights 2 forums, and when Mask of the Betrayer came out, you had people claiming up and down that they should've been able to take on Kelemvor. "We're Epic Level, killing gods should be our thing", blah, blah, blah. So it was nice being able to pull out his stats and say "No, you CAN'T take down Kelemvor. I don't care how bad you think you are." It was funny, as someone said something along the lines of "I'd lower his magic resistance, level drain him, and turn him into a chicken", and someone else pointed out that Kelemvor is immune to energy drain and transmutation. :D
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 03:01 PM	It was funny, as someone said something along the lines of "I'd lower his magic resistance, level drain him, and turn him into a chicken", and someone else pointed out that Kelemvor is immune to energy drain and transmutation. :D -People these days...:)
Alediran 12-10-07, 03:24 PM	-People these days...:) - Young people Magneto, X-Men
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-10-07, 04:12 PM	By way of example, I used to frequent the Neverwinter Nights 2 forums, and when Mask of the Betrayer came out, you had people claiming up and down that they should've been able to take on Kelemvor. "We're Epic Level, killing gods should be our thing", blah, blah, blah. Ah yes, those assertions are annoying wherever they turn up...
GreenKnight 12-10-07, 04:28 PM	I especially think it's funny when they look at just the gods levels and say "Well, he's ONLY Level 40. We can take him". Yes, but he's also A GOD. Level 40 Aasimar are more powerful than Level 40 Humans. Level 40 Half-Celestials are more powerful than Level 40 Aasimar. And Level 40 Gods are FAR more powerful than you and the rest of your party. Hmm. I'm starting to veer off into rant territory. Might be best to put the breaks on. Suffice to say, I just don't like the ideas of PC's killing Greater Gods. Especially not Level 30 PC's. Level 60 PC's sure, or PC's who've achieved Demigod status. But if Level 30 PC's can take down Greater Gods, then the history of D&D game worlds should be replete with stories of adventurers killing everything from Demigods to Greater Gods. And how can any kind of faith survive when the guy who beat you up in a bar brawl two years ago ended up killing a god, and could probably kills your, too, if he got it into his head? That somewhat takes the whole "sense of wonder at the divine" out of the equation. Not so wondrous when a band of adventurers are capable of dropping them, after all.
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 04:35 PM	Young people -Old people too, I'm sure.
VengefulGazeofGod 12-10-07, 10:58 PM	How about we leave the gods to the clerics and just play D&D? The highest level character I ever has was a 45 level Fighter/Rogue Paragon-Drow who could possibly have killed Lloth in one round but he loved her and would never have dreamed of killing her....well at least he would never have acted on it. :cool:
Lord Toast 12-11-07, 08:42 AM	Well, as I posted elsewhere, I liked the idea of having statted gods. That way, when a player got mouthy about how he'd start killing gods, I could pull out the gods stats and show them exactly how that god could put them down like a rabid dog. And do it without breaking a sweat, to boot! But with 4E, and with them talking about Level 30 characters killing Greater Gods, I'm not to fond of the idea of statted gods, anymore. To be fair, you'd have to jump through a whole lot of hoops to get it done, but still. I don't want it to happen at all. Not without a PC becoming a LOT more powerful then a Level 30 character, anyway. And if it's possible for Level 30 PC's to kill Greater Gods, then how about Lesser Gods? Or Demigods? How much easier would it be to kill them? Man, I just do NOT like the idea of a religion existing for thousands of years coming to a crashing halt because of a handle of Level 30 schmoes. I think you are reading too much into what has been said by Rich Baker. He said it was his opinion that if the pc's want to (or DM) take on Bane then they should be able to go on a quest to slay a deity. He didn’t say that is the way the design team is going with the 4e Realms Pantheon. I’m not even sure if any member of the design team for 4e or the 4e realms has mention the greater gods having avatars at all. (My web-fu skills are lacking, if someone found something that says other wise point me in the right direction) They have mention using demigods to go down to the mortal plane to accomplish various goals e.g. Clanggedin being Moradin’s brawler. Maybe they might let a level 30 character take on a demipower…
Lord Karsus 12-11-07, 08:50 AM	The highest level character I ever has was a 45 level Fighter/Rogue Paragon-Drow who could possibly have killed Lloth in one round but he loved her and would never have dreamed of killing her....well at least he would never have acted on it. :cool: -Hmm...45 level Fighter/Rogue/Drow Paragon...Nope, you would have had no chance against Lolth.
Alediran 12-11-07, 09:11 AM	-Hmm...45 level Fighter/Rogue/Drow Paragon...Nope, you would have had no chance against Lolth. Nobody can defeat a god without Arcane Knowledge.
Lord Karsus 12-11-07, 09:13 AM	Nobody can defeat a god without Arcane Knowledge. -And even then, not so much...
Alediran 12-11-07, 09:22 AM	-And even then, not so much... Exactly, but the only gods who were defeated by mortals was because at least one of said mortals was a learned Wizard who could shape the rest of the party and prepare them for the battle.
Lord Karsus 12-11-07, 09:29 AM	Exactly, but the only gods who were defeated by mortals was because at least one of said mortals was a learned Wizard who could shape the rest of the party and prepare them for the battle. -Not true. Case in point Bane and Bhaal. Neither were spellcasters, but yet they challenged a deity and won (with a little help, sure).
Alediran 12-11-07, 09:31 AM	-Not true. Case in point Bane and Bhaal. Neither were spellcasters, but yet they challenged a deity and won (with a little help, sure). You forgott Myrkul, who was a necromancer:D. It was the Tryad of Evil Badness that defeated that god, not the Biad.
Stigger 12-11-07, 09:31 AM	Not quite, since Jergal didn't exactly put up a fight in that one as far as we know...
Lord Karsus 12-11-07, 09:33 AM	You forgott Myrkul, who was a necromancer:D -I didn't mention Myrkul, and I did say that they had a 'little help'. Not quite, since Jergal didn't exactly put up a fight in that one as far as we know... -Borem of the Boiling Mud. What a name.
Stigger 12-11-07, 09:37 AM	Ah, right... but they still had the one weapon that could really screw him, so... not quite the same thing as just trying to whack him with any old sword.
Lord Karsus 12-11-07, 09:37 AM	Ah, right... but they still had the one weapon that could really screw him, so... not quite the same thing as just trying to whack him with any old sword. -The 'little help' clause again. :D
Stigger 12-11-07, 09:44 AM	I think that would probably count as a bit more than 'little help' in my book, but...
GreenKnight 12-11-07, 04:12 PM	-Borem of the Boiling Mud. What a name. He'd be more respectable if his name were Borem of the Boil on your Ass. And he was one of the Seven Lost Gods. How powerful could a Lost God be? Clearly he can't be all that if he let himself get misplaced.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-11-07, 04:17 PM	Heh, great point!
VengefulGazeofGod 12-11-07, 05:33 PM	What makes you think only a wizard/magic user can take on a deity? By Paragon I don't mean the crap prestige class thing from one of the pointless books who's name is irrelevant. I'm referring to the template from Epic Level Handbook. But that is irrelevant as well. He could have easily taken her but would never have done so. In that campaign, he plotted with Cyric and Shar to kill Mystra to secretly steal her portfolio for Lloth. At the same time another PC was trying to kill Mystra to resurrect Mystryl (sp?) To sum it all up it didn't work and the other guy got killed. And he was an immortal wizard. :cool:
Lord Karsus 12-11-07, 05:36 PM	And he was one of the Seven Lost Gods. How powerful could a Lost God be? Clearly he can't be all that if he let himself get misplaced. -I was always under the assumption that Borem became "lost" after losing his divinity to Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul. That, after he was defeated and they became deities, his name became lost in obscurity, and that was why he was added to the list. -But, I see what you are saying. Who would worship this guy? Gloppy the Molasses Monster, and that's about it.
Lord Karsus 12-11-07, 05:38 PM	What makes you think only a wizard/magic user can take on a deity? By Paragon I don't mean the crap prestige class thing from one of the pointless books who's name is irrelevant. I'm referring to the template from Epic Level Handbook. But that is irrelevant as well. He could have easily taken her but would never have done so. -Mortals =/= Deities, barring extreme circumstances
GreenKnight 12-11-07, 06:10 PM	-I was always under the assumption that Borem became "lost" after losing his divinity to Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul. That, after he was defeated and they became deities, his name became lost in obscurity, and that was why he was added to the list. The impression I got from what I've read was that Borem was already lost, and it was Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul who found him and then promptly ganked his lame ass. Could be wrong on that, though, as I'm relying on Wikipedia(!) for info, here (From the Wikipedia article on Bane: "Eventually the trio destroyed one of the Seven Lost Gods, Borem, of the Lake of Boiling Mud, and they each seized a portion of Borem's divine essence for themselves.").
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-11-07, 06:44 PM	-But, I see what you are saying. Who would worship this guy? Gloppy the Molasses Monster, and that's about it. :rofl: And, people who really, really like wet dirt.
msatran 12-11-07, 06:59 PM	My contention at that level is that autocrit and autosave mean far more than you think. Salient divine abilities pretty much mean that all those damage scores are doubled. On top of that, there are little cheats that you can use to make the deities invincible. Here's my favorite. Deities effectively have an infinite amount of XP to spend for granting wishes to themselves. Use it. Nothing beats getting a god down to 1 HP and suddenly seeing the god totally heal, and then having the god say "You've had your fun, mortal. I can do this all day. Another 100000 times, as a matter of fact. Who's going to run out first, worm?" What can a god do? Anything it wants.
Stigger 12-11-07, 07:27 PM	Kinda depends on the scale as to whether the 'Anything it wants' is actually true or not, but I agree with the spirit of the statement.
Lord Karsus 12-11-07, 09:52 PM	The impression I got from what I've read was that Borem was already lost, and it was Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul who found him and then promptly ganked his lame ass. Could be wrong on that, though, as I'm relying on Wikipedia(!) for info, here (From the Wikipedia article on Bane: "Eventually the trio destroyed one of the Seven Lost Gods, Borem, of the Lake of Boiling Mud, and they each seized a portion of Borem's divine essence for themselves."). -The point of contension is whether or not he was already "lost" when he was found (quite paradoxical). I'm thinking that there going to be absolutely no light shed on this anytime soon. ;)
GreenKnight 12-11-07, 10:24 PM	Yeah, it's doubtful there'll ever be a clear answer to that anytime soon. Still if he was lost beforehand, then that begs the question, how did Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul find him? I imagine it'd be pretty hard to find a lost god. Did they have to quest for the map that marks the location of Borem's Boiling Buttocks? And who drew the map? Clearly not Lord Ao, as he misplaced him in the first place. You can't draw a map to something you lost, after all. I know this, for I have tried. And this post is just getting dumber and dumber with each sentence. Might be prudent to stop, now, before people start looking for a sturdy tree branch to hang me from. :surrender
Lord Karsus 12-11-07, 11:29 PM	Yeah, it's doubtful there'll ever be a clear answer to that anytime soon. Still if he was lost beforehand, then that begs the question, how did Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul find him? -A heroic- or in their case, inheroic- quest.
Stigger 12-12-07, 01:13 AM	Or maybe the Lost part refers to their origins being lost to the mists of time... could be a lot of ways to interpret Lost there really.
GoldDragon 12-12-07, 07:07 AM	How about we leave the gods to the clerics and just play D&D? The highest level character I ever has was a 45 level Fighter/Rogue Paragon-Drow who could possibly have killed Lloth in one round but he loved her and would never have dreamed of killing her....well at least he would never have acted on it. :cool: Problem with the Class level on any godling is that is their average Avatar's Stats...their default one anyway. A god having a Ancient Red Dragon or a "Ravager" (Or the Staypuff Marshmellow man) is going to have verry different stats. Destroying a goddling's or any other type other immortal's form is difficult but possible, but that doesn't mean that the goddling/immortal is neccisarily dead especially if they are not killed in their "Home Plane" Problem with "the gods", even the ones in the Forgotten Realms, isn't kiling them...it's keeping them "dead" and "powerless" that is the problem cause there are always fanatical followers looking for ways to raise their god, to unimprision their god, or the god's own contengeincy plans to "not go into that gentle night" (Look at Bane and Mystra) p.s. Got a group of retired PCs that include a 140th Level Caviler, a 75th Level Ranger, a 90th Level Classic Barbarian, a 54th Level Classic Bard, and a 66th Level Mage. The Company's name is "The Untouchables" and cause of their massive stash of Potions of Youth they are effectively "immortal".
GoldDragon 12-12-07, 07:21 AM	My contention at that level is that autocrit and autosave mean far more than you think. Salient divine abilities pretty much mean that all those damage scores are doubled. On top of that, there are little cheats that you can use to make the deities invincible. Here's my favorite. Deities effectively have an infinite amount of XP to spend for granting wishes to themselves. Use it. Nothing beats getting a god down to 1 HP and suddenly seeing the god totally heal, and then having the god say "You've had your fun, mortal. I can do this all day. Another 100000 times, as a matter of fact. Who's going to run out first, worm?" What can a god do? Anything it wants. The "god" really must be bored or the Mortal really important for a "god" to actaully want to fight a mortal instead of having a bunch of Minions to "clean house" if not just blast them with "no save" Disintegrate spell
Lord Karsus 12-12-07, 09:58 AM	The "god" really must be bored or the Mortal really important for a "god" to actaully want to fight a mortal instead of having a bunch of Minions to "clean house" if not just blast them with "no save" Disintegrate spell -Must've been Finder Wyvernspur. On the average day, he has nothing to do anyway. His portfolios are really long-term things, as opposed to short-term things.
Todesherr 12-13-07, 08:43 PM	Speculation...the waiting is unbearable.