Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OleOneEye 01-13-08, 11:36 PM	What is the purpose of Ao? He created a cold, lifeless, barren world; disappears for untold millenia; reappears only to cause the Time of Troubles; disappears again. For some reason, he cares whether deities attend to their followers, but does not give a fig about mortals himself. The best I can tell is that Ao is some terrible dues-ex-machina.
GoldDragon 01-14-08, 12:21 AM	What is the purpose of Ao? He created a cold, lifeless, barren world; disappears for untold millenia; reappears only to cause the Time of Troubles; disappears again. For some reason, he cares whether deities attend to their followers, but does not give a fig about mortals himself. The best I can tell is that Ao is some terrible dues-ex-machina. My guess would be that he is at least a Temporal "true Immortal" as found in the AD&D DM's and Player's Guide to Immortals and Forgotten Realms is one of his Realm spaces that he is Given to Run, with Ao deciding to delegate authority of running it to flunky guardians either created or imported but with a "godslock" preventing a "open system" and as a already Established Realmspace before he was assigned it there was actually little for him to do with the "Urt" (Megalith known as "Toril") or the things that was living on it. dues-ex-machina is a understatement cause despite the Religious Legends Ao pretty much created all the godlings (or at least allowed them in) and he did kick almost every one one of their asses "down from Heaven" and stripped them of most of their powers with "a word" during the Time of Troubles and it has been stated that (If they were stupid enough to chalange him) all the might and power of all his flunkie godlings running the Forgotten Realms could not harm him as he is the one that grants them such powers on a whim.
OleOneEye 01-14-08, 12:50 AM	So am I correct in thinking that Ao has no purpose whatsoever in an actual campaign?
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 02:23 AM	Correct.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 03:55 AM	-Ao is.
FallingIcicle 01-14-08, 06:01 AM	What is the purpose of Ao? As far as I understand it, Ao is the high god of the Realms, greater in power than all of the other gods combined. He remains distant and only intervenes when the gods step way out of line or the cosmic balance is threatened. Until the Time of Troubles, mortals didn't even know he existed. If he does interfere in events, his interference is usually too subtle to be noticed (the time of troubles seems to be the only exception). He has the power to give and take away godhood, and seems very interested in making sure there is a balance of good, evil and neutral deities. He is most likely true neutral or perhaps lawful neutral alignment. I don't think it would be fair to say he doesn't care about mortals, he just doesn't directly intervene, instead ensuring they have free will and are able to chose between good, evil and neutrality for themselves by making sure that there is balance between the deities of various alignments. So am I correct in thinking that Ao has no purpose whatsoever in an actual campaign? Only epic campaigns (very epic) should Include Ao. He is so unfathomably powerful that it is hard to imagine where he could fit into a story without ruining it. If he were the villian, the PCs would be screwed, since even greater gods can't hope to face him. If he were the good guy, the PCs would be pointless because he could solve any problem with a mere thought. It's probably best to just forget he exists.
Flicker 01-14-08, 06:52 AM	He's the creator, thats it in my opinion. I've always had the feeling that the way it's been published it couldn't be left as a polytheism and there has to be some sort of monotheistic rationale as it doesn't fit with modern belief systems. So, while trying to pay attention to the rules re religion, he's everything and nothing, sort of the glue that needs to be there to hold everything together but not taking part, of course its hinted at in 'Waterdeep' that there's another one higher lol
Jiggawha 01-14-08, 07:37 AM	he's like a program that ensures the survival of the universe (even if it's entropic)
Khaelieth 01-14-08, 08:50 AM	What is the purpose of Ao? He created a cold, lifeless, barren world; disappears for untold millenia; reappears only to cause the Time of Troubles; disappears again. For some reason, he cares whether deities attend to their followers, but does not give a fig about mortals himself. The best I can tell is that Ao is some terrible dues-ex-machina. If hope nobody uses Ao as a deus ex machina.
Meldread 01-14-08, 10:36 AM	The best I can tell is that Ao is some terrible dues-ex-machina. This is correct. It's best just to forget Ao exists at all.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 10:45 AM	This is correct. It's best just to forget Ao exists at all. -He's doing the best he can to cover up all of his tracks. In all honesty, there isn't any reason a PC character should know of Ao.
Faraer 01-14-08, 11:55 AM	Ao was an ad hoc plot device which isn't worth thinking about unless you can get something out of it, for instance using the cult which briefly sprung up in Waterdeep to worship him.
Kenzuki 01-14-08, 12:13 PM	Lord Ao proves that no matter how powerful Cyric, Bane, Mystra, whoever becomes that there is always a bigger fish. He's also the landlord of the gods so to speak and makes sure they behave. Imagine if they just ran around doing what they wanted all willy nilly like. The world would be screwed. So Ao is the fail safe device. I happen to find him very interesting.
Gray Richardson 01-14-08, 02:51 PM	My guess is that Ao was once a normal greater god from another cosmos, of divine rank 20. As part of his ascension ritual to become an overgod, he created the crystal sphere of Realmspace around 70,000 + years ago (give or take a few eons). He did not populate it with life, or provide infrastructure of any significance. Originally, it was only filled with grey mist, which was perhaps a nascent ethereal plane, filled with possibility. We don't know if he stayed around to watch, like some kind of brewing experiment in a beaker, or if, after having completed the "ritual" and ascending to overgod status (DVR 21+) he involved himself in higher dimensional pursuits and concerns beyond the ken of mortal minds. Whether he watched or left it alone, the mists slowly resolved into Selūne and Shar, who together created all the celestial bodies and populated the cosmos with life and other deities. We know that Ao is an authority of some kind, and all the gods are beholden to him in some fashion. But Ao is sort of an absentee all-father. He doesn't interfere much with the universe he created. At least, that is, as far as we know. It is possible he works hard behind the scenes ensuring that the universe runs smoothly. But the sense I get is that he only checks in occasionally and only interferes when things get really out of whack. There are two possible scenarios that suggest themselves. Either Ao is a quiet and patient watcher, guiding the universe with a subtle and silent hand. Or he is off gallivanting in the higher dimensions, attending to concerns beyond our imagining, and that he only peeks in every once in awhile to make sure we don't tear the place apart. If the second scenario is the true case, then it is unclear why he has not abandoned the Realms altogether. It may be because he feels a fondness for the Realms as his first creation, or that he has some minimal duty to tend to the Realms imposed on him by the rules of overdivine society (we know at least that he reports to an overpower higher up than himself). Or it may be that his continued survival as an overgod rests on the continued existence of the crystal sphere of Realmspace, and as such he intervenes when needed to ensure its survival. Regardless, Ao is an inscrutible and remote entity who does not interact much with the world. He has a laissez-faire attitude with respect to his creation, and it is probably well that he should remain that way. But it is fun to speculate about him.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 05:27 PM	My guess is that Ao was once a normal greater god from another cosmos, of divine rank 20. -What makes you think this?
Gray Richardson 01-14-08, 10:04 PM	We know from Deities & Demigods and Faiths & Pantheons that gods are ranked on a scale from 0 to 20, and that divine rank 21 and over entities are classified as overgods, similar to the way in which characters that have more than 20 levels in a class are considered "epic". Overdivine ranks are not simply a continuation or scaling up of divine ranks, but rather represent something transcendent, breaking out of mere godly levels and ascension to an even higher state of being. We are told that overgods do not need worshipers, mostly do not concern themselves with mortal affairs and usually disappear from the universe after becoming overgods. We know that gods can move up and down the normal divine ranks, and so we presume can a god ascend to overgod status, just as characters can ascend to epic levels. I imagine that after a god reaches divine rank 20, if he is inclined to advance further, he charts a course that will result in his eventual transcension. We might surmise that transcension requires the god to perform a ritual or achieve a feat of some kind (kind of like a masters thesis or a doctoral dissertation). Presumably there are a variety of ways to ascend to overdivine status. One such method we may deduce is the creation of a crystal sphere or cosmos. We only have 2 examples of this, that I am aware of: Ao and the High god of Krynn. Some have suggested that the Lady of Pain is an overgod tied to the plane/city of Sigil, although others will dispute that conclusion. We might deduce that an alternate method is to champion a race and spread that race among a certain critical mass of worlds or universes. Presumably the racial gods are pursuing this path. Gods like Corellon and Moradin and Gruumsh are doing their best to seed as many worlds as possible with elves, dwarves and orcs, and I assume their motivation is in part to precipitate their own transcensions. Annam, all-father of the giant race has secluded himself in a demi-plane. Some take this as a sign of ennui, or depression resulting from a broken heart, but I think it possible that an alternative motivation might well be because he is very close to ascending, and so has cloistered himself in contemplation and preparation for the next step in his transcension. Note that there is no one racial god of humans, and I surmise that this may be because (if such a human patron ever existed) that humans were so successful in spreading among the worlds that this god may have ascended to overdivinity long ago. Other paths to ascension might include destruction of a crystal sphere, and we have an example of at least one such cataclysm in the Spelljammer setting. Others might simply seek the help of an existing overgod to elevate them. Arguably Anubis was promoted to Guardian of the Dead Gods in the astral by Ptah, and I think it might be appropriate to classify the both of them as overgods, although no one has ever confirmed that officially. There may be still other esoteric rituals and paths, unfathomable to mortals, that a god might undertake to ascend. With respect to Ao, Ed Greenwood has said that scholars of Toril believe that Toril was created about 70,000 years ago. Although Ed stressed that this is what is believed. The truth is unknown, and does not preclude the possibility that Toril evolved naturally over billions of years, or had some other origin. However, assuming for the sake of argument that the scholars of Toril are correct, then Ao could have created the crystal sphere of Realmspace as recently as 70,000 years ago. Although, we don't know how long the crystal sphere sat empty before Selune and Shar resolved from the mists and created the celestial bodies. So there is plenty of leeway for the sphere to have been created by Ao thousands, or even millions of years before Toril was created by Selune and Shar. But given Rip Van Wormer'rs conjectured timeline of the multiverse, it fits quite well to assume that the crystal sphere of Realmspace was created by Ao in the last 100,000 years or so. And it is my further assumption that creating Realmspace was the culmination of Ao's ascension ritual to overdivine status.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 10:29 PM	-Too much ungrounded conjecture for my tastes.
Gray Richardson 01-14-08, 11:04 PM	That's the point of conjecture, right? ;) To come up with theories to fill in the gaps. Not saying my answer is the only correct conclusion, but I have laid out the facts that support it, and I think my theory fits well with what few facts we do know. Namely that: 1) we are told Ao created the crystal sphere of Realmspace, 2) that he is an overgod, 3) that overgods have divine rank 21 and above, 4) that normal gods have divine ranks 0 to 20 and can increase or decrease their divine rank, and 5) that scholars believe that Toril was created about 70,000 years ago. I left out one other piece of evidence which is the info on page 4 of Faiths & Avatars where it refers to mortals ascending to divinity: in order to even attempt an ascent into godhood, a mortal in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting should have achieved at least level 25, have one attribute score of 21 or above, and have another attribute score of at least 19. She or he must then spend a great deal of time researching methods to attain divinity, come up with a plan for doing so, and confront great peril in order to execute that plan. The plan must always involve at least two of these three things: the performance of a specially researched ceremony or spell of elaborate complexity, great cost, and great personal danger; the use of an artifact; or the sponsorship of a deity.Now assuming that there is some sort of comparable trial that a level 20 god must undergo if he wants to ascend to level 21 overdivinity, one could imagine that it would take some sort of similar trial, feat, test or ritual of appropriate scope, difficulty and grandeur. Creating a crystal sphere seems like an undertaking appropriate in scale and grandeur commensurate with such an escalation in rank. I should mention that there is a lot more info in Faiths & Avatars about Ao from which you might glean other insights into his nature. Of course we are not likely to receive much if any further facts about Ao than what has been revealed so far. So we will probably never know anything more definite about his origin. If you have some alternate theories, please share your thoughts. :)
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 12:29 AM	-Why is it so necessary that Ao was once a normal deity, that somehow ascended? Couldn't Ao, by his nature, always been an overdeity? I'm mainly puzzled by this- all of the other facts you have are mostly dead on, yes.
Dzwood 01-15-08, 02:40 AM	I think info on AO is minimal on purpose so that he can be what ever he needs to be for you and you PCs. But he is something that should not be used lightly. Once you let him out of the box you will never get him back in
Gray Richardson 01-15-08, 02:57 AM	Why is it so necessary that Ao was once a normal deity, that somehow ascended? Couldn't Ao, by his nature, always been an overdeity?It's not necessary at all. It's merely what I think happened. And yes, it is certainly possible that he was always an overdeity. ;) However, all things have an origin. Ao's origin may be particularly inscrutable, but it stands to reason that when you ask the question "Couldn't Ao, by his nature, always been an overdeity?" the answer is a binary proposition; Either he was or he wasn't. If the answer to that question turns out to be that he wasn't always an overdeity, then that leads us to ask what he was before he was an overdeity. Since we know that it is quite common for gods to progress from lower divine rank to higher divine rank, then the most likely probability is that Ao would have ascended to overgodhood after rising through the ranks in another pantheon, he might even have started out as an ascended mortal. Regardless of where he started in the scheme of things, once he had gone as far as he could go as a rank 20 greater god, it would seem a natural progression to level up to DVR 21 and undertake the transition to overdeity. If so then it is also logical to assume that, since Ao created Realmspace, he could not have been part of any Torilian pantheon. His tenure as an ordinary deity would have necessarily occurred in a different crystal sphere or cosmos altogether. Now the reason I think that this is all very likely is that it has long been a tenet of D&D that all things advance in rank. Adventurers level up. When they have become very, very experienced, they break out and advance to Epic levels. Sometimes adventurers even become gods. There have been mechanics for this in D&D from very early on, going back to the Immortals Rules published in 1986, but there are precedents for aptheosis going back to the very beginning of D&D. Given that it is a fundamental aspect of D&D that everything levels up, including gods, of whom we have many many examples of them increasing in divine rank from demigod to lesser god, intermediate god and on to greater god (as both Lolth and Bane have recently done) and given that we are told that overgods are divine entities with divine rank 21 and above, it flows as night follows day that some god at some point probably leveled up from DVR 20 to DVR 21 and ascended from ordinary divinity to overgod status. I even humbly submit that this is a common and natural occurence in divine circles. Arguably we have an example of that in Anubis, though I grant you they have never come out and called him an overgod as such, but I think you could make a good case that Anubis has overgod ranks. Now, sure, we don't have evidence of a lot of overgods out there. There is nothing but circumstantial evidence to suggest that gods ascend to overdeity status at all. But I submit that the relative lack of them hanging about is due to the fact that once they ascend to overgod status, the vast majority of overgods enter an overdivine society that is concerned with higher order things, at higher levels of reality. By and large they put behind the cosmos they came from and engage in pursuits that are beyond the ken of mere mortals. Once they pass beyond material plane concerns, they are mostly forgotten. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of gods thought dead, lost or forgotten, actually transitioned on to overdeity rank. Some of these overgods may have duties that cause them to stick around and interact with our 3 dimensional universe, some may be responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of crystal spheres. Perhaps every crystal sphere has an overgod in charge of it, and Ao and the High God of Krynn are anomalous in that they have on occasion made themselves known in mortal circles, while the overgods of other crystal spheres are more subtle, operating behind the scenes, without anyone knowing of them. But I think it is logical to assume, that for the very reason we have been told that divine rank 21 and higher is reserved for overgods, it is a necessary conclusion that overgods exist and that they exist in sufficient numbers to populate a number of divine ranks above DVR 20. For instance, we know that Ao himself has a boss that he reports to who is presumably of a higher rank than he. This in itself indicates that overdeities can and do advance in rank. For these reasons I think it likely that the answer to the question "was Ao always an overdeity?" is probably "no". And lastly, as tenuous as my conclusion is, I suggest that there is absolutely no evidence to support the opposite view that Ao has always been an overgod. I am not aware of anything anywhere that speaks to Ao remaining static and unchanged throughout his existence. While absence of evidence for him remaining static is not conclusive one way or the other, I submit that while there is some, flimsy evidence to conlcude he might have changed in status over the eons, there is nothing on the other side to support the idea that he has not changed. In weighing one side against the other, the preponderance of what little evidence there is weighs more in favor of Ao having arisen to where he is from a lower rank, over him having always been the same. :detect:
Dzwood 01-15-08, 03:34 AM	If you take all this info by the numbers you are probably correct....but your post feels like you killed Christmas for me. AO can have a back story hell he probably should but not so technical he is the creator of Relmspace there should be some poetry in him somewhere. I think the need to stat out Ao and give him a back story is usually <NOT ALOWAYS> a symptom of gamers needing a BOSS plain and simple. I mean sure it is fun to think about but WHY do you do it....? Just my poorly writen thoughts on the subject.
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 04:02 AM	-Want stats? Ao's stats are thus: ∞. Plain and simple.
Gray Richardson 01-15-08, 10:52 AM	Who is asking for stats? :eek: I certainly am not advocating for giving stats to Ao. I simply think that an Ao with a story behind him, an Ao that strives and grows, is more interesting and poetic to me than a plain and simple, unchanging ∞. But that is just my own aesthetic. Your mileage may vary. ;)
Stigger 01-15-08, 02:06 PM	If we don't have stats, we can't go beat him up and take his phat lootz then... and then Warning will be a sad little bunny if we can't do that... :( :D
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 06:10 PM	Who is asking for stats? :eek: I certainly am not advocating for giving stats to Ao. -I was talking to 'Wood, not you.
Kenzuki 01-15-08, 06:40 PM	Isn't AO an anagram of Alpha-Omega? That would imply he has neither begining nor end, that or he's really God from Earth lol.
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 06:45 PM	Isn't AO an anagram of Alpha-Omega? -While many people like to come to that assumption, I believe that it was specifically said somewhere that Ao does not stand for 'Alpha-Omega'.
Dzwood 01-15-08, 06:51 PM	-I was talking to 'Wood, not you. While i think there is more to AO than stating him at infinity....I am at a loss to say what that more is.
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 06:53 PM	While i think there is more to AO than stating him at infinity....I am at a loss to say what that more is. -For all intents and purposes, as will be needed in a game, that works.
Dzwood 01-15-08, 06:57 PM	Didnt AO have a hand in Tymoras Luck or Finders Bane!!!! I think he did.....Harummpf.
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 06:59 PM	-I can't recall Ao being mentioned, no.
Dzwood 01-15-08, 07:01 PM	Ya it was implied that he was the one who got them the invatations into the engagment party and that inturn let Finder and the heros into Lythanders realm
Old Sage 01-15-08, 07:12 PM	Ao was not something Ed created. TSR come up with the concept of Ao and he was brought into the setting during the Time of Troubles -- through the 1e to 2e change over. As it stands, Ed has no idea on where TSR came up with the concept of Ao. The Alpha and Omega theory may be just as good as any other theory that Ao is based on a deity, like An for example, from ancient mythology. Though there's never been any official statement on the concept of Ao being related to the "Alpha and Omega" relationship.
Dzwood 01-15-08, 07:21 PM	Ya it was implied that he was the one who got them the invatations into the engagment party and that inturn let Finder and the heros into Lythanders realm I just checked on this it is implied that it is AO. But Finder dosnt come out and say it.
OleOneEye 01-15-08, 07:46 PM	It appears that Ao is equally the most important and least important character in the setting. What a waste.
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 11:42 PM	Ya it was implied that he was the one who got them the invatations into the engagment party and that inturn let Finder and the heros into Lythanders realm -I don't even remember any of that. I should read those books again, I guess. It appears that Ao is equally the most important and least important character in the setting. What a waste. -Not really a waste...He's like the president of a huge company. He's the main guy in charge, but in reality, he's in the background.
OleOneEye 01-16-08, 12:19 AM	Not really a waste...He's like the president of a huge company. He's the main guy in charge, but in reality, he's in the background. In a roleplaying setting, it is hard to justify the usefulness of anything that PCs do not interact with. As I read in the FRCS, and as those whom have done a wonderful job in answering my original question have verified, Ao is not a character designed to have anything to do with the PCs. Only by fundamentally changing the nature by which Ao is presented can the characters interract with him in any level. Perhaps for those that enjoy the novels, he is useful in that format.
Kenzuki 01-16-08, 12:24 AM	I like the concept of Lord Ao. He ensures that things don't totally blow up or go too wacky. I like to picture him working on his tan while not managing the Realms. He's in bermuda shorts and a hawaiian flower shirt with shades right now. That is until the gods ruin his serenity......*I'm talking about YOU Tyr!*
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 12:26 AM	Ao is not a character designed to have anything to do with the PCs. -That is correct. That does not make Ao inherently useless/wasteful, however.
OleOneEye 01-16-08, 12:58 AM	I like the concept of Lord Ao. He ensures that things don't totally blow up or go too wacky. I like to picture him working on his tan while not managing the Realms. He's in bermuda shorts and a hawaiian flower shirt with shades right now. That is until the gods ruin his serenity......*I'm talking about YOU Tyr!* So Ao's purpose is to make a God seem less like a God and more like a just a dude who can get his nose kicked in? Tyr is not the ultimate symbol of Justice in the Realms, but more like a bureaucratic manager of Justice? Or am I making more out of the situation?
OleOneEye 01-16-08, 12:59 AM	-That is correct. That does not make Ao inherently useless/wasteful, however. But what is Ao's use in a campaign? If Ao has no use in a campaign without a fundamental change to his character, how is that not a useless/wasteful portion of the campaign setting?
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 01:16 AM	But what is Ao's use in a campaign? If Ao has no use in a campaign without a fundamental change to his character, how is that not a useless/wasteful portion of the campaign setting? -Off the top of my head, the PCs can investigate a group of murders that somehow revolves around the mysterious Ministry of Ao. A plot similar to that was in Neverwinter Nights.
Dzwood 01-16-08, 01:30 AM	Also the PCs could be manipulated into doing "SOMETHING" that would grately upset the balance. AO might be included that way, when he shows up to put the smack down on that plan. It should be noted that I find it unlikely that he would just apear and talk to the PCs.......... but hey its your game. It is more likely he would punish the god for bringing the disruption about. Or he could simplly make something/someone diapear and leave a message like "Hey screw with Realmsapce again and F U OK?"
OleOneEye 01-16-08, 02:01 AM	So I am misunderstanding the purpose of Ao. He is not fundamentally designed to be beyond the PCs, but rather, is an appropriate character to have mysterious organizations, manipulate the divinities, and the like. Whispers of a power greater than the gods can be heard in forgotten corners of the world, whispers that can lead to power. That is something that is useful. I apologize if I am dense, but that is not what I read from his blurb in the FRCS.
Dzwood 01-16-08, 02:21 AM	Ohh i think he is beyond any PC NPC or God. But in the right situation you MIGHT catch o glimpse of him. He is that thing that is so impresive that he inspires high leval PC to retire IF they even know of him
Khaelieth 01-16-08, 06:33 AM	There was a temple to Ao somewhere in Tethyr... Check Realms of Intrigue, 2nd ed. It got destroyed, I believe
Khaelieth 01-16-08, 06:35 AM	And btw, what happened to the Lady of Pain on 3rd ed?
Stigger 01-16-08, 07:19 AM	She got kidnapped by the 4e design/development team and turned into a coat-rack... Seriously though, she's still in Sigil as far as I know.
Old Sage 01-16-08, 09:46 AM	As of 3e [specifically, the Planar Handbook] the Lady of Pain still rules the City of Doors.
Kenzuki 01-16-08, 10:00 AM	So Ao's purpose is to make a God seem less like a God and more like a just a dude who can get his nose kicked in? Tyr is not the ultimate symbol of Justice in the Realms, but more like a bureaucratic manager of Justice? Or am I making more out of the situation? If Tyr was the ultimate symbol of Justice he wouldn't have killed poor Helm over something so stupid as Tymora. I don't want to hear excuses about character blah blah it's canon whether or not you ignor it.;)
Meldread 01-16-08, 12:24 PM	Gray Richardson pretty much summed up my thoughts on the existence of Ao. However, like I said - Ao is just a dues-ex-machina, something best forgotten and something I hope is retconned out in 4E. All of the supposed reasons Ao exist can easily be handled through implementing cosmic laws that bind deities. Don't want Cyric suddenly becoming the god of justice? Make it so that a deity cannot act outside their portfolios and further bind a deity to their worshipers. In the end, a deity may have ultimate cosmic power, but that power is limited in scope and in the end is forever enslaved to his or her worshipers. This is similar to how a mythical genie works - he can grant you any three wishes you want, but only three, and must obey his master. (But the rules allow some wiggle room.) Ao simply exists for those with a weak mind and need a fail-safe when they screw things up. (In other words, he is mostly for the authors of novels when they screw too much up.) He is just a big ugly band-aid. Just forget he exists at all and your campaign will be better off.
Yaeri 01-16-08, 05:18 PM	Ao is gonna be the last boss in my campaign. He will wield a sling with which he slings planets at the party. That'll be cool. Though I do not mind the existence of Ao (at all) I find the lady of Pain to be far more intriguing. Hmm, maybe I should use her as the final boss. She can make pins grow out of sigil, and use it as the most enormous shuriken ever. YEAH!!! Did it work? Did my post kill anyone?
Stigger 01-16-08, 05:22 PM	Yes, it killed me, but I had a contingent resurrection waiting for moments just like this...
Kenzuki 01-16-08, 09:28 PM	Ao is gonna be the last boss in my campaign. He will wield a sling with which he slings planets at the party. That'll be cool. Though I do not mind the existence of Ao (at all) I find the lady of Pain to be far more intriguing. Hmm, maybe I should use her as the final boss. She can make pins grow out of sigil, and use it as the most enormous shuriken ever. YEAH!!! Did it work? Did my post kill anyone? Do I need massive amounts of resist gear in order to survive the Deep Breaths that Ao will do when he rages at 10%. Or how about the many bugs that will happen due to lack of internal testing on the part of Bliz..I mean Wizards. Will Ao drop Artifact gear for rangers or will fighters and paladins get all the phat lewt? Somehow I imagine the Lady of Pain caters more to the rogues in her gear. I heard she drops teir 11 gear!
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 11:02 PM	-Huh...? EDIT: Nevermind, Ken, I get it now. ;) So I am misunderstanding the purpose of Ao. He is not fundamentally designed to be beyond the PCs, but rather, is an appropriate character to have mysterious organizations, manipulate the divinities, and the like. Whispers of a power greater than the gods can be heard in forgotten corners of the world, whispers that can lead to power. -While Ao is not likely to spread the word of such power, his existence is likely to prompt those who have some- any- kind of knowledge of his existence into knowledge.
Mr_Miscellany 01-17-08, 02:54 AM	So am I correct in thinking that Ao has no purpose whatsoever in an actual campaign? He’s appeared (read: manifested) in my campaign. That is, he warned the PCs away after they spent too much time mucking around inside a font of unborn souls on the positive material plane. ::::::::::: It all depends on how DMs want to use him (just like any other aspect of the FR setting). The greater power that Ao reports to....that guy/entity hasn't come up in my game yet. But someday....maybe. ;) :::::::::: -While Ao is not likely to spread the word of such power, his existence is likely to prompt those who have some- any- kind of knowledge of his existence into knowledge. This is exactly what happened in Waterdeep just after the Time of Troubles came to a close. IIRC a cult dedicated to Ao rose up soon after Ao manifested in that city.
MarkusTay63 01-17-08, 03:29 AM	Your Positive Plane has a Well of Souls too? :bigeyes:
Old Sage 01-17-08, 07:22 AM	Ao is supposed to remain a largely "unknown" element in terms of the Realms and the setting as a whole. He's an overpower -- unknowable. Look at what happened to the cults that grew up around Ao-worship after the ToT. They started up wanting to learn and know more about the mystery that is Ao. They quickly faded and disappeared however, when it became apparent that Ao had no intention of answering prayers or having any type of relations with mortals. What little we know about Ao is covered in Faiths & Avatars. That should be enough... in fact, some have said even that is too much.
herceg 01-17-08, 11:00 AM	The greater power that Ao reports to....that guy/entity hasn't come up in my game yet. He totally did! I'm hinting at the "theory" that the greater power is "the DM" [a.k.a. "You"] ;)
GoldDragon 01-17-08, 11:06 AM	Isn't AO an anagram of Alpha-Omega? That would imply he has neither begining nor end, that or he's really God from Earth lol. Actually AO supposedly answers to a "higher Power" known as "The Celestial Light", so Alfa and Omega he isn't
Lord Karsus 01-17-08, 11:35 AM	This is exactly what happened in Waterdeep just after the Time of Troubles came to a close. IIRC a cult dedicated to Ao rose up soon after Ao manifested in that city. -No it's not. Ao wanted nothing to do with them, and as such, he erased records of his own existence from texts, and the minds of people, over the course of time. He never answered/granted the prayers of his ministers, and as such, membership in them slowly dwindled. Hence, why I said, Ao might not spread the word, but others can imply/believe what they want.
The Ubbergeek 02-14-08, 12:32 AM	personal way of seeing things; Brahman as both Creation and the Creation as a while, the Unity. It's worthy of being - it's beingness.
Caterpillar 02-16-08, 09:56 AM	@Gray From the very first I read of Ao 'til just now I simply shrugged him off as the overgod of the Torilian Universe. He had no stats (compared to gods or mortals). But I thoroughly enjoyed what you had to say about him and that his ascension was through the creation of the Torilian sphere and that maybe he is the patron god of humans. Although is there some Zarus or something like that? Eh but I guess that is not Forgotten Realms though. Anyway, really liked what you had to say about Ao.
Gray Richardson 02-17-08, 05:49 PM	Thanks! Although, I should clarify: I do not think Ao was once the racial patron of humans. Although, I can't rule it out, I think it unlikely. I figure that racial promulgation is a separate path to overdivinity from crystal sphere creation. I think that gods like Moradin, Corellon, and Gruumsh may be on the racial promulgation path, and that perhaps Annam, all-father of the giant race, may be the next closest deity to achieving it, which may be why he has cloistered himself in a demi-plane. I think Io may actually have done it, ascended to over-god status awhile back, as he seems to have left the multiverse, and several draconic myths suggest that he died in ages past, either split into Bahamut and Tiamat, or pierced by the rays of the sun in a great battle which spawned dragonkind from the drops of his blood. The fact that Io is an absentee all-father, not much worshipped, suggests that Io was successful in spreading dragons to a critical mass of worlds and universes, which enabled him to finally transcend. As for the human racial deity, I was merely pointing out that no one remembers a specific racial deity of humans, which could suggest that if such a patron god of humans ever existed, given that humans seem like the most well established race among all the worlds of the multiverse, they might have reached the critical mass so long ago that his name has become completely forgotten in the ages since his transition to overgod status. I think it likely he is an overgod now, but I don't think he is Ao. Now as for overgods who transcend through the crystal sphere method--and there are probably a lot of them, because there are a lot of crystal spheres--we only know of two by name: Ao and the High God of Krynn (and possibly the Lady of Pain). As for Ao specifically, if he was ever a normal greater god of divine rank 20 or less, he could have come from any world or pantheon in the D&D multiverse. Assuming that his transcendence happened 70,000 years ago or more, he would have to have come from a pantheon that was current that far back. As Earth history only goes back so far, Ao as a deity may not have come from any earthly pantheon, although I don't know if we could rule out such MIA entities as Ouranos, or Kronos, but I kind of doubt Ao came from Earth. Looking at Rip Van Wormer's timeline I see that there were a couple of races, the Vedmoti and the Reigar that were prominent between 60,000 to 100,000 years ago, so perhaps Ao was a god from one of those worlds. Actually if you go by this page here list of dead gods (http://www.graveyardofthegods.org/deadgods/listofgods.html) there are a lot of dead Earth gods. Given that there are zillions of worlds in the D&D multiverse, just multiply that list by a zillion and Ao could have been any one of 'em. Given how many crystal spheres there are in the D&D multiverse, I suspect it is a popular means of transcension to overgod status, but given that there are many, many more gods than extant crystal spheres, there likely must also be multiple methods of transcending to overdivinity. Racial promulgation and crystal sphere creation are probably only 2 methods out of a great many alternative rituals for becoming overgods.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-17-08, 09:08 PM	Thanks! Although, I should clarify: I do not think Ao was once the racial patron of humans. Although, I can't rule it out, I think it unlikely. I figure that racial promulgation is a separate path to overdivinity from crystal sphere creation. I think that gods like Moradin, Corellon, and Gruumsh may be on the racial promulgation path, and that perhaps Annam, all-father of the giant race, may be the next closest deity to achieving it, which may be why he has cloistered himself in a demi-plane. I think Io may actually have done it, ascended to over-god status awhile back, as he seems to have left the multiverse, and several draconic myths suggest that he died in ages past, either split into Bahamut and Tiamat, or pierced by the rays of the sun in a great battle which spawned dragonkind from the drops of his blood. The fact that Io is an absentee all-father, not much worshipped, suggests that Io was successful in spreading dragons to a critical mass of worlds and universes, which enabled him to finally transcend. As for the human racial deity, I was merely pointing out that no one remembers a specific racial deity of humans, which could suggest that if such a patron god of humans ever existed, given that humans seem like the most well established race among all the worlds of the multiverse, they might have reached the critical mass so long ago that his name has become completely forgotten in the ages since his transition to overgod status. I think it likely he is an overgod now, but I don't think he is Ao. Now as for overgods who transcend through the crystal sphere method--and there are probably a lot of them, because there are a lot of crystal spheres--we only know of two by name: Ao and the High God of Krynn (and possibly the Lady of Pain). As for Ao specifically, if he was ever a normal greater god of divine rank 20 or less, he could have come from any world or pantheon in the D&D multiverse. Assuming that his transcendence happened 70,000 years ago or more, he would have to have come from a pantheon that was current that far back. As Earth history only goes back so far, Ao as a deity may not have come from any earthly pantheon, although I don't know if we could rule out such MIA entities as Ouranos, or Kronos, but I kind of doubt Ao came from Earth. Looking at Rip Van Wormer's timeline I see that there were a couple of races, the Vedmoti and the Reigar that were prominent between 60,000 to 100,000 years ago, so perhaps Ao was a god from one of those worlds. Actually if you go by this page here list of dead gods (http://www.graveyardofthegods.org/deadgods/listofgods.html) there are a lot of dead Earth gods. Given that there are zillions of worlds in the D&D multiverse, just multiply that list by a zillion and Ao could have been any one of 'em. Given how many crystal spheres there are in the D&D multiverse, I suspect it is a popular means of transcension to overgod status, but given that there are many, many more gods than extant crystal spheres, there likely must also be multiple methods of transcending to overdivinity. Racial promulgation and crystal sphere creation are probably only 2 methods out of a great many alternative rituals for becoming overgods. The Leshay from the EPH existed before the current universe. It is possible that Ao was their racial deity and that when there universe was destroyed in an apocalypse he created the current universe to serve as a place for the surviving Leshay to retreat to. Just my :twocents:
Alleran 02-17-08, 10:23 PM	As far as Ao's origin is concerned, I tend to subscribe to a version of the Dicefreaks idea (it may not be theirs - I just read it there first), in that Ao is an overgod tasked by his superior (whoever that may be) to create and maintain the balance of a crystal sphere (Toril). Not a rank 20 god who's performed some sort of ritual to transcend his god status, but an entity that is literally beyond such concepts, in that he has always existed, as far as we can know or comprehend. Toril may not even be his first project - he could have had untold thousands (or hundreds of thousands, or millions, or billions, or... you get the idea) of previous crystal spheres that he created, watched, and then at some point discarded in favour of a new one. From what's inferred by Ao's comments at the end of the Waterdeep novel, he isn't the only "overgod entity" who recieves that sort of project, either. More specifically, I put Ao at around rank 23-24 in Overgod status, because Toril is a heavy-magic world (compared with, say, our Earth, which is a no-magic world - or no magic that we can discern - and would thus have a rank 21 overgod). Then it scales on up, to things like the multiversal concept of law/chaos/good/evil (DvR 26), multiversal concept of magic (the Serpent, IMO at rank 27), then entities like the Lady of Pain (DvR 28-29), who would be tasked at maintaining order and balance across the multiverse, followed by the "Supreme Being" at DvR 30 (of course, nothing says that DvR couldn't scale further than 30, but since it goes from 21-30 like the initial Epic levels given, I see 30 as being a good place to stop). And the Supreme Being is, well... supreme. He Is, for lack of a better way of describing it. Oh, and since Io was mentioned, I'll note that I tend to think of him as perhaps being an overgod in the sense that he is kind of like the "multiversal concept" of Dragonkind. Where that would rank on my list I'm not entirely certain, but maybe DvR 25 (since he surpasses the limitations of crystal spheres, being an overgod that encompasses an entire concept of reality, but is less than the fundamental forces of law/chaos/good/evil). There very well may be "multiversal concepts" of Elves, Humans and so on as well (in fact, it would be probable that there are).
Dragyn 02-19-08, 12:54 AM	What is the purpose of Ao? He created a cold, lifeless, barren world; disappears for untold millenia; reappears only to cause the Time of Troubles; disappears again. For some reason, he cares whether deities attend to their followers, but does not give a fig about mortals himself. The best I can tell is that Ao is some terrible dues-ex-machina. ...i prefer to avoid such questions... .. . i hope you didn't make him mad.
Rauric 02-19-08, 08:37 AM	So am I correct in thinking that Ao has no purpose whatsoever in an actual campaign? Yes. TSR made him up not Ed.
Rauric 02-19-08, 08:44 AM	He totally did! I'm hinting at the "theory" that the greater power is "the DM" [a.k.a. "You"] ;) I concur. The mysterious entity at the end of the book is the Reader/DM.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-19-08, 08:59 PM	Ao can have a purpose in a campaign if the DM wants him to.:)
JRBlasingame 02-22-08, 04:00 PM	-I don't even remember any of that. I should read those books again, I guess. -Not really a waste...He's like the president of a huge company. He's the main guy in charge, but in reality, he's in the background. What happened in Tymora's Luck: Fisban (aka Paladine) was helping Finder. Finder said he thought he was Ao, but it was never acknowledged or denied, but anyone who has read Dragonlance books knows it was suppose to be Paladine (from the description and the way he acted).