Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nightbluejh 04-29-07, 02:13 AM	I was just looking over the DMG's list of arcane scrolls and noticed that cure light and cure moderate and I would guess (but haven't actually looked) cure serious are listed as arcane scrolls. Obviously if an arcane caster can get this as an arcane scroll he can copy it into his spell book and permanently be able to heal?! Is that right? I would guess so...but it just seems so, wrong...
andinel 04-29-07, 03:11 AM	You have it half-right. Cure spells, at least the lower level ones, are on the bard's spell list as arcane spells, so a bard could use an arcane scroll of cure light wounds or something else in the chain. However, since cure spells aren't on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, I don't think you could copy them into a spellbook. A bard can still use them, though.
Lord Karsus 05-01-07, 07:44 PM	-I was just thinking about something like this the other day. I'd allow an Arcane magician to develop and/or utilize existing healing spells. There is (as far as I know) nothing that bars arcane magicians from manipulating Positive and/or Negative energies.
Burningspear 05-01-07, 08:03 PM	-I was just thinking about something like this the other day. I'd allow an Arcane magician to develop and/or utilize existing healing spells. There is (as far as I know) nothing that bars arcane magicians from manipulating Positive and/or Negative energies. though it is supposed to be the priests corner of expertise... hmmz.... wonder if that unbalances things in the power of the classes. Priests can research spells just as mages and vice versa, but the damage spells are less powerful done by priests so the healing spells should be less powerful done by mages. my 2 coppers.
Boda 05-01-07, 10:44 PM	though it is supposed to be the priests corner of expertise... hmmz.... wonder if that unbalances things in the power of the classes. Priests can research spells just as mages and vice versa, but the damage spells are less powerful done by priests so the healing spells should be less powerful done by mages. my 2 coppers. It would hardly unbalance anything. Arcane spellcasters(wizards first) are generally more powerful that any other classes, so this would only make them even more. Cant unbalance something that was never balanced from the start.
Lord Karsus 05-01-07, 11:35 PM	though it is supposed to be the priests corner of expertise... hmmz.... wonder if that unbalances things in the power of the classes. Priests can research spells just as mages and vice versa, but the damage spells are less powerful done by priests so the healing spells should be less powerful done by mages. -It might unbalance the game a bit, but we need to think about things in actual FR terms. Why is it that never in the entire history of the world has a wizard or a sorcerer ever has tried to research and create a healing spell? They can summon sentient creatures from other planes of existence, and bind said creatures to do their bidding, but they can summon a little bit of positive or negative energy? Come on...
Zandilar 05-01-07, 11:59 PM	Heya, LK - there are instances of arcane spellcasters creating spells that can heal. The best example is Simbul's synostodweomer. I believe it's a 7th level spell that enables a wizard or sorcerer to expend a spell and heal 1d6 points of damage per level of the expended spell (I don't have my books with me right now so I can't check).
Burningspear 05-02-07, 12:02 AM	Heya, LK - there are instances of arcane spellcasters creating spells that can heal. The best example is Simbul's synostodweomer. I believe it's a 7th level spell that enables a wizard or sorcerer to expend a spell and heal 1d6 points of damage per level of the expended spell (I don't have my books with me right now so I can't check). Hah, thnx for the support ;) :plotting:
Lord Karsus 05-02-07, 12:10 AM	Heya, LK - there are instances of arcane spellcasters creating spells that can heal. The best example is Simbul's synostodweomer. I believe it's a 7th level spell that enables a wizard or sorcerer to expend a spell and heal 1d6 points of damage per level of the expended spell (I don't have my books with me right now so I can't check). -I know about that. I'm talking more about the "straight up" Cure spells.
Burningspear 05-02-07, 12:15 AM	-I know about that. I'm talking more about the "straight up" Cure spells. But that does show how "non" -realistic it seems to research healing as an arcanist :pbbbtt: :rant: :gah: :tongue: :bump: ...lol
Lord_Madrigan 05-02-07, 12:52 AM	-It might unbalance the game a bit, but we need to think about things in actual FR terms. Why is it that never in the entire history of the world has a wizard or a sorcerer ever has tried to research and create a healing spell? They can summon sentient creatures from other planes of existence, and bind said creatures to do their bidding, but they can summon a little bit of positive or negative energy? Come on... Who says wizards never attemped to research healing spells? The gods just intervine and prevent the wizard from finishing the research. It serves the gods best intrests to make mortals dependant on Them for healing. After all If you can get your healing elsewhere why worship a god? For my home rules divine spells can be researched as an arcane spell at one caster level higher than there divine counterpart.
Burningspear 05-02-07, 01:24 AM	Who says wizards never attemped to research healing spells? The gods just intervine and prevent the wizard from finishing the research. It serves the gods best intrests to make mortals dependant on Them for healing. After all If you can get your healing elsewhere why worship a god? For my home rules divine spells can be researched as an arcane spell at one caster level higher than there divine counterpart. And what about vice versa? priests researching "arcane type" spells? also +1 lvl?
Faraer 05-02-07, 04:06 AM	Why is it that never in the entire history of the world has a wizard or a sorcerer ever has tried to research and create a healing spell?They've tried and succeeded, and far more than the few published. Although priests are better than mages at healing in the Realms, the gap is narrower than in D&D.
The_Shaman 05-02-07, 07:08 AM	What about the Arcane Disciple feat? It allows a sorcerer or wizard to learn any spell from the healing domain, although with some RP restrictions. Mind you, if you're so dedicated to creating arcane magic that heals, chances are you might be close to worshipping that kind of deity anyway. Aside from that, check with the DM. Spell research and what it can lead to are his alley. I remember a sorcerer spell from dragon magic that healed the caster, but there's got to be more than that. If neither of these works, do it the summoner way - conjure something that has healing powers and tell it to heal you.
Zandilar 05-02-07, 08:04 AM	Heya, -I know about that. I'm talking more about the "straight up" Cure spells. I've asked Ed Greenwood a question (or two) over on Candlekeep* that ended up with me asking about the implications of magic for gender bending and fertility in the Realms. Essentially he said that arcane magic was too much of a blunt instrument to achieve the goal of fertile gender bending (ie: a woman using polymorph to turn into a man would not be fertile). He implied rather strongly, though, that there are divine magics equivalent to polymorph that could result in viable fertility. (He also mentioned that not every spell that is around has been published in Core books, like spells dealing with fertility/contraception, and other things that are of limited use to adventurers in a "PG" rated game.) From this I would infer that with regard to healing, Divine Magic is a scalpel, while Arcane Magic is a sword. I would expect that any arcane healing type spells would be rather inefficent over all. If I were going to make Cure spells available to a wizard/sorcerer (and I seriously wouldn't - the spells available to wizards/sorcerers already are sufficent in my mind), I'd let them have them two levels after a Cleric would get them. So Cure Minor Wounds becomes a 2nd level spell, Cure Light 3rd, Cure Moderate 4th, Cure Serious 5th, Cure Critical 6th, and Heal 8th. But that opens another can of worms... If a wizard can have Cure spells, why not let a cleric have Fireball and other arcane staples (outside of Domain spells, of course)? And once you're asking that, you may as well ask - why differentiate divine and arcane magic at all? * I am sure these are somewhere in Kuje's archives, but I'm too tired to search for the actual quotes at the moment.
Lord Karsus 05-02-07, 09:24 AM	Who says wizards never attemped to research healing spells? -No one, specifically, but, by the lack of Healing spells on the general Arcane Spell list, arcane magicians never seem to research and create spells that manipulate positive and negative energies. They've tried and succeeded, and far more than the few published. Although priests are better than mages at healing in the Realms, the gap is narrower than in D&D. -I was making a generalization, as I just said, about the mundane Arcane spell list. * I am sure these are somewhere in Kuje's archives, but I'm too tired to search for the actual quotes at the moment. -Yes, I remember this, actually.
Lord_Madrigan 05-02-07, 12:16 PM	What about the Arcane Disciple feat? . what book was that in again? And what about vice versa? priests researching "arcane type" spells? also +1 lvl? you got it.
Tarus 05-02-07, 12:19 PM	Eh, I always thought it would be cool to play a necromantic arcane healer. His spells aren't so much about healing or hurting but life transfer. At level 1 you can target a recently deceased creature and pull up to 10 hp out of him to put into a given target. (less if they were below 0 hp). Things like that.
Fabius Maximus 05-02-07, 12:44 PM	There could be another possility to ensure arcane healing (besides using necromantic spells). Just allow them the spells from the cleric list, but at a price. You can rationalize it this way: Conjuration (Healing) spells are very straining to cast. Divine casters have the advantage that their dieties take that extra stress from them, but arcane casters haven't got this advantage. When casting a spell from the Healing subschool, they take a 25% risk of taking Constitution damage. The amount of damage is equal to 1 + the healing spell’s level. I suggest that this rule is extended to bards.
The_Shaman 05-02-07, 02:19 PM	what book was that in again?. Complete Divine, if I remember correctly. It's not worth it if you're low on feats, but can be quite handy at times.
GothicDan 05-02-07, 08:52 PM	But that opens another can of worms... If a wizard can have Cure spells, why not let a cleric have Fireball and other arcane staples (outside of Domain spells, of course)? And once you're asking that, you may as well ask - why differentiate divine and arcane magic at all? Their deities. Remember, deities are very obssessed with their portfolios, to the point of being utterly insane by mortal standards... And THEY'RE the ones granting the spells to Clerics/Priests. Clerics/Priests can't conjure spells out of thin air. They have to rely on whatever power their patron feels should be granted to them. WARNING: SHAMELESS SELF-INDULGENT BABBLING In my own game world, I'm separating arcanist-types from clerical types by the knowledge they possess. The clerical types learn from their patrons (either via meditation or holy texts/scrolls/etc.) specific prayers. The magi have researched over thousands of years the inherent similarities and differences in the production of 'magical' effects among various spellcasting traditions and supernatural beings, and have from that reverse engineered the underlying code of creation (combining True Names and Quantum Mechanics; I refer to it as the Divine Argot). Clerics only learn specific cases of this Divine Argot. They COULD theoretically learn more, but to do so would seriously shake their faith, and to cast the most powerful magic in a clerical paradigm already requires one's mind to resonate with a certain amount of faith energy (brain emitting waves at the right harmonics to resonate with the appropriate patterns). So, clerics that tried to learn alternate systems of magic lose massive power. The magi have figured out how to perform such magic without these, by sort of using Dolby sound reduction and blocking out the 'unnecessary' bits. However, the path to be a mage is not easy at all, due to having to be able to remember the right motions/notes to sing/crystals to produce the spells... To make X part of Y target (pattern) resonate in the right quantum frequency (memorization), and to know how to analyze a system and adjust what you've already learned 'should' be right (like how in learning mechanical physics in high school, you ignore air resistance - but to do magic, magi can't do that), and create the right effect.. It's all incredibly difficult, requires decades of training (and more), and straining in all ways. So, basically, the clerics of my world take the less flexible, more powerful in the short term, and easier route; the magi put themselves in for the strenuous long haul. Thus, there are very very few magi (even in their magocratic empire) of note; think of it like having to learn the most obscure, arcane sorts of physics, and then having to be both a talented singer (producing the right notes for extended periods of time) and a master illusionist (requiring immense dexterity to create the right motions)
Burningspear 05-02-07, 09:10 PM	Their deities. Remember, deities are very obssessed with their portfolios, to the point of being utterly insane by mortal standards... And THEY'RE the ones granting the spells to Clerics/Priests. Clerics/Priests can't conjure spells out of thin air. They have to rely on whatever power their patron feels should be granted to them. The only thing the actual god is supposedly doing, is t grant the energies needed for the spell sequence that the priest has researched, be it that if it is not in the gods ethos, he will not grant that energy to power said ritual, so then the priest doing the ritual has no means of empowering the spell/ ritual he has created. Mages have more freedom in this regard, but the god of a priest does have "supportive" effects to his priest, that the mage cannot experience himself. my 2 coppers.
Zandilar 05-03-07, 01:20 AM	Heya, Their deities. Remember, deities are very obssessed with their portfolios, to the point of being utterly insane by mortal standards... And THEY'RE the ones granting the spells to Clerics/Priests. Clerics/Priests can't conjure spells out of thin air. They have to rely on whatever power their patron feels should be granted to them. We can provide in-game explanations all we like, but the true reason why clerics and wizards/sorcerers don't use the same magic is simply this - if we allow wizards/sorcerers access to clerical magic, while not allowing clerics to access arcane magic, who would play a cleric? Short answer - only loonies like myself who happen to like the gods. :angel: :rant: Seems like every where I look these days there's rules popping up for bypassing the gods completely, even in the Forgotten Realms. :( WARNING: SHAMELESS SELF-INDULGENT BABBLING Nice stuff there, Dan. :) Kind of has a... science-y feel to magic. It would fit very well in a sci-fi-with-magic world. :)
GothicDan 05-03-07, 02:28 AM	We can provide in-game explanations all we like, but the true reason why clerics and wizards/sorcerers don't use the same magic is simply this - if we allow wizards/sorcerers access to clerical magic, while not allowing clerics to access arcane magic, who would play a cleric? Short answer - only loonies like myself who happen to like the gods. Ah, I thought you were actually asking for an in-game answer! :) And, personally, I feel that varieties are arcane magic in FR should even be further differentiated from one to the next, mechanically, given how much detail they've been given. Seems like every where I look these days there's rules popping up for bypassing the gods completely, even in the Forgotten Realms. Playing a cleric largely means being forced to roleplay. WotC doesn't want to tell you how to play its game, does it? ;) Nice stuff there, Dan. Kind of has a... science-y feel to magic. It would fit very well in a sci-fi-with-magic world. I was aiming for the magocracy being just really... Advanced magic. Think Netheril, but more stable, unified, etc. But I certainly was going for an empirical, yet flexible form of magic that could easily support multiple magical traditions both in-game and mechanically. Oddly enough, the closest to 'magic with sci-fi' in the world is a group of animistic shamans in a sub-arctic realm of multiple islands, focusing on utilizing the natural thermal fissures of the Earth in the form of hot springs, geysers, and volcanic activity in the advancement of technology. They use fully-enclosed and heated green houses, for example, to grow the food necessary in making life in such a cold environment easier. They talk often with the spirits of metal, water, steam, and fire, whose line was largely founded centuries ago by a benevolent, eccentric shaman who wondered how he could use the natural thermal energy of his isle-home. He basically first invented steam-power technology in the world, and is known as the Grandfather of the Steaming City. I really dig hero cults, for some reason...
Zandilar 05-03-07, 03:37 AM	Heya, And, personally, I feel that varieties are arcane magic in FR should even be further differentiated from one to the next, mechanically, given how much detail they've been given. It could be interesting, though I think three distinct types are enough (Arcane, Divine, and Psionics). Four, if you want to be picky and include Shadow Weave magic as being different to Weave magic. Playing a cleric largely means being forced to roleplay. WotC doesn't want to tell you how to play its game, does it? ;) Heh. :) No more or less than playing a Paladin forces you to RP. ;) Its all about options. But that way leads down the path to trying to include absolutely everything in a setting, even if it contradicts other things already in the setting... and that can make a right royal mess of things. It's the main mistake TSR made in the last Edition version of the Forgotten Realms. No setting can be all things to all people. I was aiming for the magocracy being just really... Advanced magic. Think Netheril, but more stable, unified, etc. But I certainly was going for an empirical, yet flexible form of magic that could easily support multiple magical traditions both in-game and mechanically. Definitely still a more science-y approach to magic. :) But I suppose that is how things might eventually go, if technology and, more importantly, science advance in the world at all.
Khaelieth 05-03-07, 08:01 AM	Who says wizards never attemped to research healing spells? The gods just intervine and prevent the wizard from finishing the research. It serves the gods best intrests to make mortals dependant on Them for healing. After all If you can get your healing elsewhere why worship a god? For my home rules divine spells can be researched as an arcane spell at one caster level higher than there divine counterpart. *Imagines a 1st level wizard trying to research cure light wounds when Bane's avatar teleports into the room, steals his notes, gives him a slap over the fingers and dissapears.*
Fabius Maximus 05-03-07, 09:18 AM	*Imagines a 1st level wizard trying to research cure light wounds when Bane's avatar teleports into the room, steals his notes, gives him a slap over the fingers and dissapears.* Sounds better than the scene in the second D&D movie...
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 09:25 AM	Sounds better than the scene in the second D&D movie... -Sounds better than the entire first D&D movie. :rolleyes:
Fabius Maximus 05-03-07, 04:47 PM	No kidding. ;)
Nightbluejh 05-03-07, 09:41 PM	I'm with L.K. on this one. If we equate the ability to heal directly with the manipulation on positive and/or negative energies, I don't think we can logically ban an arcanist from learning how to manipulate said energies into arcane healing magic. And no, I don't belive this destroys or even remotely effects the reason for someone to take a class that can cast spells while wearing heavy armor and large metal shield while expertly wielding any number of extremly dangerous weapons all while standing around with d8 HD. O and being the only class in the game that can DIRECTLY commune with a god and blast undead, some of the most feared monsters in the game to dust enmass along with all those nice new fangled tricks Clerics have based on that turning ability. Whooaa, my next PC is a Cleric... Would I give a Priest the ability to cast fireball?? Sure, but he already has access to, I dunno...a bazzilion (obviously I am exaggerating) other rather nice damaging spells. Overall, If a Mage wants to turn himself into some party's BANDADE, I say, let him. Chances are, unless the player really sucks at playing a Mage, he's only blunting his usefulness. Especially, considering you can buy a wand of Cure Light Wounds for like 500gp.
Zandilar 05-04-07, 12:49 AM	Heya, I'm with L.K. on this one. If we equate the ability to heal directly with the manipulation on positive and/or negative energies, I don't think we can logically ban an arcanist from learning how to manipulate said energies into arcane healing magic. Can anyone name a single wizard/sorcerer spell that exists right now that manipulates positive material energies? (I know there are some spells that use negative material energy, but I don't actually recall one single positive material energy wizard/sorcerer spell.) I'm curious. And no, I don't belive this destroys or even remotely effects the reason for someone to take a class that can cast spells while wearing heavy armor and large metal shield while expertly wielding any number of extremly dangerous weapons all while standing around with d8 HD. O and being the only class in the game that can DIRECTLY commune with a god and blast undead, some of the most feared monsters in the game to dust enmass along with all those nice new fangled tricks Clerics have based on that turning ability. Whooaa, my next PC is a Cleric... Hmm... Armour: Spellsword? (Complete Warrior) Hitpoints: d10 - Eldritch Knight? (Dungon Master's Guide) Commune with gods: Contact Other Plane? Turning: Well, Paladins... Undead are just one type of monster in the whole of Faerun*. Turning Feats: Reserve Spell Feats? Would I give a Priest the ability to cast fireball?? Sure, but he already has access to, I dunno...a bazzilion (obviously I am exaggerating) other rather nice damaging spells. Overall, If a Mage wants to turn himself into some party's BANDADE, I say, let him. Chances are, unless the player really sucks at playing a Mage, he's only blunting his usefulness. Especially, considering you can buy a wand of Cure Light Wounds for like 500gp. And yes, you're very much over stating the prevalence of damaging spells on the cleric's spell list. Damaging cleric spells are inefficent and they are sparse on their spell list compared to a wizard/sorcerer's spell list, and they tend to only be really effective against one or two creature types. You are also right that the wizard/sorcerer wouldn't be as good if they had healing spells. That's why they don't have them in the first place. ;) As for the wand? Well, unless you have Cure Light Wounds on your spell list (or sufficent enough UMD), you can't use it. * I've played in a campaign where one player built an undead combatant especially to fight them and... we came up against exactly 0 undead. I know, either the DM or the player needed to alter what they were doing, but there you go. We were busy fighting humanoids and dragons and evil outsiders for most of that game.
GothicDan 05-04-07, 08:13 AM	Can anyone name a single wizard/sorcerer spell that exists right now that manipulates positive material energies? (I know there are some spells that use negative material energy, but I don't actually recall one single positive material energy wizard/sorcerer spell.) I'm curious. That depends on what you mean exactly by "exists right now." Do you mean under the current 3E ruleset, or in FR/D&D lore in general?
Zandilar 05-04-07, 09:26 PM	Heya, That depends on what you mean exactly by "exists right now." Do you mean under the current 3E ruleset, or in FR/D&D lore in general? Hmm... Well now my curiosity is piqued by this, and my research hasn't really turned up much (yet) so... both. :)
Nightbluejh 05-05-07, 03:29 AM	Are these questions? Or statements? If you could be more clear it would be easier for me to understand. I mean, what about an Eldritch Knight having d10 HD? Are you stateing that because a duel class Prc gives a Arcane caster d10 HD he shouldn't have acess to healing spells? And telling me that a Paladin is even close to as good at turning as a Cleric? And yes, you're very much over stating the prevalence of damaging spells on the cleric's spell list. Damaging cleric spells are inefficent and they are sparse on their spell list compared to a wizard/sorcerer's spell list, and they tend to only be really effective against one or two creature types. [/QUOTE] No, not really . Just for two how bout Flame Strike? Or Maybe Blade Barrier? Just because the Divine list doesn't have a bunch of DIRECT damage spells doesn't mean that those spells can't realy F%$ck up your enemies day when used correctly and or creativly. I mean, if you truely think spells like fireball are that great, I would hate to see how upset you'de be to see someone play an arcanist and use the realy dangerous spells. [/QUOTE] You are also right that the wizard/sorcerer wouldn't be as good if they had healing spells. That's why they don't have them in the first place. ;) As for the wand? Well, unless you have Cure Light Wounds on your spell list (or sufficent enough UMD), you can't use it. [/QUOTE] And yes, of course you would have to have the UMD to use the wand...
Nightbluejh 05-05-07, 03:38 AM	Ooo, that turned out all wrong, its too late 2:38am..I gota go to bed sorry bout that last post
Orthanell 05-05-07, 03:36 PM	It woud work with the feat Arcane Disciple or so (Complete Divine), and a patron with healing domain. Then your wizzard or sorcerer can cast these spells, but they are with wisdom as prime atribut.
GothicDan 05-05-07, 03:41 PM	There's, I believe, a spell developed by a Necromancer that was 'forced' to research it by the Waterdhavian government, as punishment... I think it utilized the Positive Energy of one's body to harm undead. I can't remember the name of it, though.
Zandilar 05-05-07, 08:26 PM	Heya, Are these questions? Or statements? If you could be more clear it would be easier for me to understand. Basically I was just highlighting how a wizard/sorcerer (lets just call them mages for simplicity) were able to put on heavy armour and get a better deal with hit points. I also pointed out one spell mages get that is on a par with commune. Clerics do have some rather kick behind spells, but as I think I said, they don't have a terribly wide selection of them - flamestrike is up there with cone of cold and has the added bonus of half that damage being unresistable (though it's an AoE spell, and you get a saving throw - making it rather situational). I guess the point I was trying to make was - if you allow mages to research the same healing spells a cleric has, you may as well allow them to research other spells on their list as well, such as... well... flamestrike. Where do you draw the line? If you "merge" the spell lists of mages and clerics - the only reason you might play a cleric is for turn undead. And Turn Undead is situational enough that they came up with feats to use it other ways when not facing undead... Mages get other nifty things they can do through feats, so... why play a cleric at all?
GothicDan 05-05-07, 08:30 PM	Personally, I like the Specialty Priests from 2E. They got to learn some Wizard spells, as well. And they also got special granted abilities. So this would have made up for Wizards' abilities to access all kinds of spells.
Zandilar 05-05-07, 08:48 PM	Heya, Personally, I like the Specialty Priests from 2E. They got to learn some Wizard spells, as well. And they also got special granted abilities. So this would have made up for Wizards' abilities to access all kinds of spells. There are plenty of mage spells are on the cleric domain lists, which reflects the old Specialty Priests, but yes, it's not the same. Interestingly enough, in my posting about Reincarnate, I said the spell could possibly be an arcane spell too - but I did put it on the list at 7th level, as opposed to 4th level - which is where the spell is for druids. However, there's precedent for Reincarnate - back in 1st Ed, it was a mage spell too.
Nightbluejh 05-05-07, 09:18 PM	I guess I feel differant even if mages could cast the heal spells they still can't, for example remove cures or restore or resurect. As far as armor, let's just arcane spell failure. But I do understand the poiont that you and others are trying to make. Now, what if you talk praticality and not rules?? does that change your mind? What about the argument of mages being able to manipulate positve energy?
GothicDan 05-05-07, 09:35 PM	Ultimately, in my opinion, playing any class should be a matter of whether you want to roleplay the attendant factors that come with picking a member of that class. All issues of mechanics should be secondary, and a DM should help to make things more playable.
Nightbluejh 05-06-07, 12:37 AM	I would have to say I agree w/Dan, to a point. While RPing in my mind is ultimately the major factor there is an exception in that there are cases that I have seen where a player, and it is always the player's fault, creates a charecter that is so poorely designed that it fails to be fun to play and they end up switching classes, claiming that the class is underpowered because they chose a poor Prc or they are playing a bard and think the Rogue is stronger or whatever. In my opinion the classes are designed so that this can't happen, if you build them correctly, but perhaps some are just for more advanced players than others. anywho, if you feel your class is the weekest at the table and your getting gypted you won't have the fun you should.
GothicDan 05-06-07, 01:44 AM	And if that's the case, the DM and you should have a discussion. I know I've built in special handicaps to my characters in the past, purely for design reasons, and the DM worked with me, giving me little boosts now and then behind the scenes, to reward my roleplaying. People may scream it's not fair, but this was a different ruleset. :)
Zandilar 05-06-07, 04:52 AM	Heya, I guess I feel differant even if mages could cast the heal spells they still can't, for example remove cures or restore or resurect. As far as armor, let's just arcane spell failure. If you're going to let a mage learn/research cure light wounds, why not let them learn raise dead? After all, it's not like they can't cast it already - limited wish and wish can both emulate raise dead. Remove curse is already on the mage spell list at level 5 (one level later than clerics get it). Restoration is just another way to manipulate/channel positive material energy, much like the Cure spells... So if they can learn/research cure serious wounds, why not let them learn/research any of the restoration spells? As for ASF... There are ways around it, several PrCs let a mage get away with heavier armour, not to mention mithril and other materials reduce the ASF for armour... But lets face it, when you get to high enough levels - the armour bonus from armour is trivial compared to the kinds of magical bonuses you're getting... and at a certain point, BAB outstrips AC by enough to make combat a case of "who hits first wins". Now, what if you talk praticality and not rules?? does that change your mind? What about the argument of mages being able to manipulate positve energy? Dan has managed to list one spell mentioned somewhere that has a mage using positive material energy - on the other hand, I haven't seen any positive material energy manipulating spell in the core rules... That's not to say there aren't any, I could have missed some (and haven't really looked that hard yet), and both wish and limited wish can emulate cleric spells (up to two levels lower, though, than the wishes, and both are costly spells to cast). On the right foot, though, the Chosen of Mystra and Spellfire wielders all have the ability to use raw magical energy to heal people of their wounds. This is not a manipulation of positive material energy at all, just raw weave magic - so healing isn't necessarily connected to positive material energy at all. So why can't a mage use healing magic? Well, they can. It is just that the spells that a mage needs to use are pretty powerful - there's Simbul's synostodweomer, a 7th level spell that allows a mage to sacrifice spells for 1d6 points of healing per spell level sacrificed... now if you're capable of casting 7th level spells, and you happen to have that one in your spell book - you're almost as good as a cleric at raw healing power... but the trade off is you have to sacrifice spells to do so... which you'd be doing anyway if you had access to just the standard cure spells.
Old Sparky 05-06-07, 03:03 PM	Here's the way I look at it... the healing spells on a bard's arcane spell list are learnable by wizards who want to research them properly; but not every cure/heal spell available. I would actually bump them up 1 level from the bard list to the wizard list. Now, as for clerics learning wizard spells... I'm gonna say not really. Clerics already have limited access to some wizard spells through their domains. If their diety wants them to have access to a given direct damage spell, they can get it through a domain (if available). Of course, if a normally arcane spell is on their domain list for a domain they have selected, then yes, I would allow them to research the spell for regular use.
Lord Karsus 05-06-07, 05:51 PM	-For Clerics, it's much more clear cut. As Sparky said: If their diety wants them to...
Tygs 05-07-07, 10:41 AM	That's one thing that has always made me wonder: Why can bards cast some Cure spells?
Khaelieth 05-07-07, 11:26 AM	Proper mages don't need healing magic, 'cause their enemies are incinerated already.
Lord Karsus 05-07-07, 02:26 PM	Proper mages don't need healing magic, 'cause their enemies are incinerated already. -What about the hurts that wizards cause to themselves? Case in point, the Harpell Clan...
Zandilar 05-08-07, 12:02 AM	Heya, That's one thing that has always made me wonder: Why can bards cast some Cure spells? That is a very good question, that doesn't appear to have a very good answer. Bards can cast healing magic because, way back in 1st Edition, the Player's Handbook for Advanced Dungeons and Dragons had Bards essentially being a variant type of Druid who had some experience as a fighter and a thief. They could only be humans because they used dual classing rules to qualify. To think of it in 3e terms, Bard was the very first Prestige Class. Druids could heal, therefore so could Bards.
Khaelieth 05-08-07, 11:14 AM	-What about the hurts that wizards cause to themselves? Case in point, the Harpell Clan... Psch. Didn't the Imaskari try to trap divine spellcasters to learn how divine magic works? I stole their notes... >.> <.< *Flees*
Tygs 05-08-07, 10:23 PM	Heya, That is a very good question, that doesn't appear to have a very good answer. Bards can cast healing magic because, way back in 1st Edition, the Player's Handbook for Advanced Dungeons and Dragons had Bards essentially being a variant type of Druid who had some experience as a fighter and a thief. They could only be humans because they used dual classing rules to qualify. To think of it in 3e terms, Bard was the very first Prestige Class. Druids could heal, therefore so could Bards. If that's the case, then why isn't bardic magic divine instead of arcane?
Agudo Archmage 05-08-07, 11:20 PM	The whole point of playing FR games, is the challenge/adventure So when someone says.... why can’t a Mage heal? I say, make it different enough from a Clerics ability, so they can A Mage should be more like a modern day Scientist/Doctor...um just with magic :P Example A comrade in arms is hurt, he is bleeding and it’s a main artery that’s gushing blood Instead of divine faith causing healing, the Mage knows she needs to use a “Clamp” on the artery. Granted not to shut off blood flow, just keep it inside and flowing to the heart Does she the Mage, have mini-magical-clamps, already researched and made for such use? Can she have position/ointments which can be used like bandages? What about magical glasses? Can they be used just like microscope? Anyway, instead of it being “faith in a higher power” that heals the comrade; without any understanding, on how the “power” did it You have a Mage, who researched the body and uses her magic, with a mixture of natural materials to heal. Also I like Fabius Maxmus idea as well Fabius Maxmus Just allow them the spells from the cleric list, but at a price…………they take a 25% risk of taking Constitution damage. The amount of damage is equal to 1 + the healing spell’s level. I suggest that this rule is extended to bards.
Lord Karsus 05-09-07, 12:05 AM	If that's the case, then why isn't bardic magic divine instead of arcane? -Because deities don't grant Bards their magic.
Zandilar 05-09-07, 04:09 AM	Heya, -Because deities don't grant Bards their magic. Yes, that's right. At least for 2nd and subsequent Editions of Dungeons and Dragons. I really don't know why they didn't take the Cure spells off the Bard's spell list, when they went from divine casters to arcane casters in 2nd Ed.
Stigger 05-09-07, 04:30 AM	You know, I seem to recall it being vaguely mentioned in one of the Cormyr trilogy books that the War Wizards had some odd access to healing magic that didn't rely on mere Spell-Beggars... can't recall which offhand, or even if I just took the wrong impression of it, but I seem to recall the implication being there when it involved Azoun and maybe the Gaznethingies... Anyway, there isn't much incentive for many mages to bother looking into healing magics as it is. The portrayal of most tends to imply a certain self-centeredness that kinda precludes the whole healing mindset. If one did however, I'd think it was along the lines of a particularly pious Arcane Devotee who was doing it to provide a backup for clerics or something like that. I have no problem really with 'unbalancing issues', since as a DM I can just tell a player whos trying to exploit something to bugger off, rules or no rules, and change said rules to something that suits the campaign better.
sillaric_culdanin 05-09-07, 04:45 AM	Just a quick addition to this... check out Volo's Guide to the North (I think, could be Sword Coast instead) in the entry on Kheldell in the Westwood. The town's resident wizard (Ghellkyn ?sp?) was heavily involved in researching ways to use arcane magic to heal wounds... although I can't recall if he had enjoyed any success. Wanted to make sure that everyone was aware that this exact thing was covered in lore... :)
Tygs 05-09-07, 05:01 PM	-Because deities don't grant Bards their magic. My point of asking the very simple question was that, in a way, the difference between arcane and divine is totally arbitrary. In a way, it makes no sense. If for some reason a wizard wanted to research any other bardic only spell, I doubt there would be an arguement between DM and player, other than the DM maybe asking 'Why?'. And who is to say that a deity can't give a bard their magic. Strictly by the PHB a cleric doesn't have to follow to a deity, they can devote themselves to a cause. So, a bard could devote themselves to music itself.
Zandilar 05-09-07, 06:50 PM	Heya, My point of asking the very simple question was that, in a way, the difference between arcane and divine is totally arbitrary. In a way, it makes no sense. If for some reason a wizard wanted to research any other bardic only spell, I doubt there would be an arguement between DM and player, other than the DM maybe asking 'Why?'. And who is to say that a deity can't give a bard their magic. Strictly by the PHB a cleric doesn't have to follow to a deity, they can devote themselves to a cause. So, a bard could devote themselves to music itself. I'm fairly sure that, except for the few bard only spells (ie: lesser confusion), most spells on the bard's list are also wizard/sorcerer (mage) spells. Anyway, there is quite a difference between an arcane spell and a divine spell - it's not really just an arbitary difference. They're written/structured differently (a mage can only use arcane scrolls, for example, they can't use a divine scroll even if the spell on the scroll is on their spell list (ie: bull's strength - a mage can cast it from an arcane scroll, but not a divine scroll), and they usually use different components (a mage might need to use, for example, a few hairs of a bull or a pinch of bull dung to cast bull's strength, but a cleric only needs his/her holy symbol/divine focus).
Faraer 05-09-07, 07:18 PM	Wanted to make sure that everyone was aware that this exact thing was covered in lore... :)Right. VGN p. 219: "Ghelkyn . . . always carries his most prized spell, a wizard version of the priest spell cure serious wounds." There are a few other clues here and there as to the greater presence of arcane healing magic in the Realms than in D&D.My point of asking the very simple question was that, in a way, the difference between arcane and divine is totally arbitrary.In our world, yes, there's no real distinction: the Christian Church's division of 'religion' and 'magic' amounts to 'our magic' vs 'their magic'. But D&D has discrete wizardly magic, priestly magic and psionics because Gary was looking to derive as many elements as possible from legendary and fictional sources, including multiple interpretations of the same thing -- see gorgon/medusa and many other examples.And who is to say that a deity can't give a bard their magic.I'm sure this sometimes happens.Strictly by the PHB a cleric doesn't have to follow to a deity, they can devote themselves to a cause.Not in the Realms.
Agudo Archmage 05-09-07, 07:58 PM	The challenge/adventure of any FR game is the difference in each Char Be it Druid, Bard, Cleric and so on Now that doesn’t mean an Archmage, who in my opinion, is pushing the envelope of “Divine Power” (Cough)…Time Stop spell anyone :embarrass Could perhaps, come close, to using some kind of magic that can heal How? Well ill leave that to the rule-makers This is a good example by Zandilar. on why Wizards should not be able to heal. Zandilar Anyway, there is quite a difference between an arcane spell and a divine spell - it's not really just an arbitary difference. They're written/structured differently (a mage can only use arcane scrolls, for example, they can't use a divine scroll even if the spell on the scroll is on their spell list (ie: bull's strength - a mage can cast it from an arcane scroll, but not a divine scroll), and they usually use different components (a mage might need to use, for example, a few hairs of a bull or a pinch of bull dung to cast bull's strength, but a cleric only needs his/her holy symbol/divine focus).