Auril, and winter in the realms. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Auril, and winter in the realms. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dimensional_Drifter
05-19-07, 01:20 AM I read somewhere about the possibilty that Auril could've once been neutral and later become evil through some event. What would any of you say to this possibilty, considering winter as part of nature, and thus being generally neutral and not evil. Could there have been other deities of winter? Ulutiu (asleep in the astral plane) is a demigod of the great glacier and is lawful neutral, however doesn't have winter in his portfolio, and Auril is slowly trying to take his portfolio anyway. Would winter in the realms be seen as a bad thing and not simply a part of the natural cycle of seasons? Perhaps, but many regions don't have cold, harsh winters. Then again, the realms does have a technological level in that winter would be indeed something that no one looks foward to in comparison to other seasons, so one could say that winter being controlled by an evil being is reasonable.
GothicDan
05-19-07, 01:25 AM Auril is the bad aspects of Winter. Just because something is 'natural,' doesn't mean that people like it or accept it (like death, murder, hatred, the night, darkness, ignorance, rabid animals, disease, etc.)
Dimensional_Drifter
05-19-07, 01:43 AM Ah, then there should be something encompassing the other aspects? Should there be a deity that represents what is not bad in winter, or if not would the other seasons be seen as the balancing factors against the bad aspects of winter? I think Meilikki has autumn, Lathander has spring, and Chauntea has summer, and they are all neutral good. It seems to me that it is unbalanced, so evil would make sense.
GothicDan
05-19-07, 01:45 AM 'Balance' is artificial, and rarely makes much sense in religious or mythology...

If you think about it, spring, summer, and fall are all 'good' concepts to most cultures. Spring is the time of frolicking and birth, summer is a time of relaxation, and autumn is harvest time.

Winter is just... Mean.
Dimensional_Drifter
05-19-07, 01:53 AM hmm... I wonder, is that why many religions and cultures have holidays in the winter? To counteract the fact that winter isn't a good thing? Ah, but without winter, you couldn't compare it to other seasons. Like how good cannot exist without evil to compare it to.

Anyway, I just kind of thought that a balance was important in the realms.
Gray Richardson
05-19-07, 02:16 AM If you reed the novel Evermeet, it is revealed that Auril once resided, or was at least welcome in Arvandor, and had duties that involved the change of season from summer to winter. She was more of a "Jack Frost" character, a merry sprite that brought frost and cold weather. I think of that scene from the movie Fantasia the way she is described.

However, when gods took sides in Araushnee's civil war against the Seldarine, Auril sided with Araushnee and was cast out of Arvandor with the rest of the losers. Clearly her heart hardened and grew colder in the ages to follow.

Auril was presented in Evermeet as if she was a Faerūnian version of one of the Greek Horae, or goddesses of the seasons.

In fact, I think it very possible that Auril might actually have been one of the Greek Horae, or at least a fragment or avatar of one that interloped into Faerūn, possibly as a companion to or around the same time as Tyche, the Greek goddess of fate. If so, I am thinking specifically that she could have been Karpo, the goddess of Autumn/Winter. Although, this is just speculation on my part--there is no evidence anywhere to back up this particular theory that Auril might have interloped from the Greek pantheon, still an intriguing notion though.

What we do know is that, before Tyche split into Beshaba and Tymora, her realm was called Olympus (named, rather uncreatively, after the plane she came from) and there is some evidence to support that this divine realm was attached to Arvandor. Auril could have lived in Tyche's realm of Olympus, or in a nearby realm on the same plane.

After Tyche died, Tymora appears to have renamed her divine realm "Brightwater", and then a few decades back (around 60 years or so according to On Hallowed Ground) she split it off from Arvandor to form her own plane with her fellow goddesses Sune and Lliira.
Dimensional_Drifter
05-19-07, 02:26 AM Thanks for the information, Gray. I have the book, I just haven't read it yet, still finishing another one first. That sounds about right, Auril as a nature deity of winter the season, then becoming Auril, deity of the harshness of winter and a deity of fury after a fall with the others from that conflict. I wouldn't have thought to associate her with the civil war against Seldarine before.
The Ubbergeek
05-19-07, 02:33 AM 'Balance' is artificial, and rarely makes much sense in religious or mythology...

If you think about it, spring, summer, and fall are all 'good' concepts to most cultures. Spring is the time of frolicking and birth, summer is a time of relaxation, and autumn is harvest time.

Winter is just... Mean.

Depend on what you mean as 'balance'. I say it means much in spirituality, religion, mysticism and esoterism as equilibrum.

Day, night.... the four elements.... alpha and omega...

I bet there is seasonal aspects to other deities....
Dimensional_Drifter
05-19-07, 02:45 AM I figured that it seemed a bit unbalanced. I see it two ways when it comes to the seasons and the realms:

1. There are three good deities that have a season in their portfolios (if I'm not mistaken- haven't checked any of the sourcebooks yet to be certain) and one evil deity with a season.

Also two of these are greater deities, one intermediate, however Auril is a lesser deity. I understand that their power comes from worship, so it is understandable that with the other portfolios, more worshipers and such they would be more powerful.

2. There could be a good and bad side to each season. If Auril represents the bad aspects of winter, what about the other aspects of winter?

But seeing what Gray had said, I think that neither of my above statments matter anyway.

However, keeping a balance seems very important to me, seeing that it was something that came up several times in the avatar series, and Ao does seem concerned with a balance in the realms more than anything else. Thus balancing deities and portfolios makes sense.
Overall, I guess the seasons aren't such a big deal anyway, unless it was say winter, and you lived in the Silver Marches, Icewind Dale, or something.
Gray Richardson
05-19-07, 03:48 AM There are two ways to pray to a god, either for supplication or appeasement. In layman's terms that means "Please do this" and "please don't hurt me". Most of Faerūn prays to the evil and unpleasant gods for appeasement--that is to keep the harmful things at bay, avoid the harsher effects of bad weather, war, disease, misfortune and all the other ills the gods can bring to bare.

Auril is worshipped for appeasement wherever the climate can become icy. So mostly in the North and the cold places of Faerūn. That would explain why she is a lesser goddess: because her faith simply cannot compete with the other gods in warmer climes. There is little reason to love her and no reason to fear her in those lands where her icy touch cannot reach. In the North, however, she is not well loved, but her power is greatly respected.

My favorite bit of lore regarding Auril's worship is found in Volo's Guide to the North, in the Luskan section on p.118:"The Winter Palace is a temple to Auril, the Frost Maiden. The rituals of worship to this deity are often cruel. Visitors gather to watch the “wet parades,” a ritual where supplicants don garments packed with ice and drip their way along the streets. They journey between six white pillars known as the Kisses of Auril. These columns are spread widely throughout the Reach. The worshippers move from pillar to pillar, chanting prayers to the goddess, before returning to the temple. In winter, I’'m told such processions resemble frantic footraces, with the added risk of exposure or heartchill. The wet parade runners are often cheered on by patrons who come out of nearby taverns to place bets on the stamina of the participants."
Borris
05-19-07, 04:50 AM hmm... I wonder, is that why many religions and cultures have holidays in the winter? To counteract the fact that winter isn't a good thing?
I always thought it was more because there simply isn't much to do in the winter. During the rest of the year, nearly every single day has to be spent planting/tending/harvesting crops. You can't afford to take a week's break or your family won't survive until the next year. Once winter comes, however, there jusr isn't much to do. You can only bide your time until spring comes and you'll packed indoors most of the time. Might as well have a few holidays and celebrations to liven things up a little, especially in contrast to how bleak things can be in the dark of winter.

Auril (and later Beshaba) would take up residence in Fury's Heart.
But isn't Beshaba's realm located on the Barrens of Doom and Despair?
Gray Richardson
05-19-07, 05:33 AM My mistake, I goofed, yes Beshaba is in the Barrens, I should know better.
GothicDan
05-19-07, 06:54 PM Also note that the people of Sossal worship a "more benign" version of Auril. So while she may be evil and antagonistic, like many other deities of Faerun, that doesn't mean that people don't respect her and have different views on her. :)
BadCatMan
05-19-07, 09:39 PM My guess is that the people of Sossal don't have much of a choice about the cold - it's it a matter of living with it, or leaving. They've adapted, and Auril is less likely to try to freeze them as a result.

Geography and environment should play a part in how seasonal gods are perceived. In a desert country, winter is the time of the wet season, and is important for crops, while summer brings droughts and suffering.
GothicDan
05-19-07, 09:43 PM But I doubt people in a desert country would worship Auril much during the winter. More likely, Akadi and maybe Istishia (river floods), and perhaps Talos. And Set.
Soltares
05-20-07, 11:58 AM I think Meilikki has autumn, Lathander has spring, and Chauntea has summer, and they are all neutral good. It seems to me that it is unbalanced, so evil would make sense.

Myrkul used to cover autumn, but obviously he's no longer in the running.

Lathander is definitely spring. No idea about summer.
The Ubbergeek
05-20-07, 12:39 PM Myrkul used to cover autumn, but obviously he's no longer in the running.

Lathander is definitely spring. No idea about summer.

Chauntea? Silvanus?
Faraer
05-20-07, 12:42 PM Ah, then there should be something encompassing the other aspects? Should there be a deity that represents what is not bad in winter . . .No, the gods don't work like that.It seems to me that it is unbalanced, so evil would make sense.Where 'balance' means gods associated with weather working out to be neutral? Why? Again, the gods don't work like that.
Khaelieth
05-20-07, 12:55 PM What about a heresy which venerates the older Auril? I believe she's NE (or CE) so NG would be allowed=)
GothicDan
05-20-07, 01:16 PM <3 for Faraer.

I really get miffed at the idea of a truly polytheistic world trying to be 'balanced' by some people. It worked for Dragonlance in large part because it was accepted that the mythology was 100% true, but FR is far more organic and variable.
Lord_Steve
05-20-07, 05:27 PM Create your own DemiGod of winter, snow, ice and cold.....and slap ono a NG alignment, some history etc. and you're ready to go.....though Khae has a better idea.....I do think that Auril will still grant her followers of the old aspect spells and such....probably even be kinder to them *shrugs*

Hmmmmmm.....A Fire Genasi worshipper of Auril in Calimshan.....oh the picture makes me laugh!!!!
Borris
05-25-07, 04:43 AM According to the portfolios in Faiths and Pantheons.
Lathander is the god of spring.
Chauntea is the goddess of summer.
Mielikki is the goddess of autumn. (though it used to be Myrkul)
Auril is the goddess of winter.
GothWulf
05-25-07, 09:55 AM hmm... I wonder, is that why many religions and cultures have holidays in the winter? To counteract the fact that winter isn't a good thing? Ah, but without winter, you couldn't compare it to other seasons. Like how good cannot exist without evil to compare it to.

Anyway, I just kind of thought that a balance was important in the realms.

I would say that its more of a rememberance of a time when Auril was a kinder, sweeter Goddess...the holidays origionally started out to celebrate Her coming and honor Her, only later turning to merely "something good to get us through this damn cold"

Wulfe
Perun
05-28-07, 01:50 AM hmm... I wonder, is that why many religions and cultures have holidays in the winter? To counteract the fact that winter isn't a good thing? Ah, but without winter, you couldn't compare it to other seasons. Like how good cannot exist without evil to compare it to.

If I remember right, most winter festivals come around the time of the winter solstice, a day with the longest night in the whole year. On this day sun (or spring) defeats cold (winter) as days become longer and the people know the warmer times are coming.

That's the real world (well, some parts of it anyway). I don't remember if there's an official explanation in the Realms. However, IIRC, most festivals on Faerūn fall on the seasonal festival days (Midwinter, Greengrass, Midsummer, Highharvestide, the Feast of the Moon).

Regards.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dimensional_Drifter 05-19-07, 01:20 AM	I read somewhere about the possibilty that Auril could've once been neutral and later become evil through some event. What would any of you say to this possibilty, considering winter as part of nature, and thus being generally neutral and not evil. Could there have been other deities of winter? Ulutiu (asleep in the astral plane) is a demigod of the great glacier and is lawful neutral, however doesn't have winter in his portfolio, and Auril is slowly trying to take his portfolio anyway. Would winter in the realms be seen as a bad thing and not simply a part of the natural cycle of seasons? Perhaps, but many regions don't have cold, harsh winters. Then again, the realms does have a technological level in that winter would be indeed something that no one looks foward to in comparison to other seasons, so one could say that winter being controlled by an evil being is reasonable.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 01:25 AM	Auril is the bad aspects of Winter. Just because something is 'natural,' doesn't mean that people like it or accept it (like death, murder, hatred, the night, darkness, ignorance, rabid animals, disease, etc.)
Dimensional_Drifter 05-19-07, 01:43 AM	Ah, then there should be something encompassing the other aspects? Should there be a deity that represents what is not bad in winter, or if not would the other seasons be seen as the balancing factors against the bad aspects of winter? I think Meilikki has autumn, Lathander has spring, and Chauntea has summer, and they are all neutral good. It seems to me that it is unbalanced, so evil would make sense.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 01:45 AM	'Balance' is artificial, and rarely makes much sense in religious or mythology... If you think about it, spring, summer, and fall are all 'good' concepts to most cultures. Spring is the time of frolicking and birth, summer is a time of relaxation, and autumn is harvest time. Winter is just... Mean.
Dimensional_Drifter 05-19-07, 01:53 AM	hmm... I wonder, is that why many religions and cultures have holidays in the winter? To counteract the fact that winter isn't a good thing? Ah, but without winter, you couldn't compare it to other seasons. Like how good cannot exist without evil to compare it to. Anyway, I just kind of thought that a balance was important in the realms.
Gray Richardson 05-19-07, 02:16 AM	If you reed the novel Evermeet, it is revealed that Auril once resided, or was at least welcome in Arvandor, and had duties that involved the change of season from summer to winter. She was more of a "Jack Frost" character, a merry sprite that brought frost and cold weather. I think of that scene from the movie Fantasia the way she is described. However, when gods took sides in Araushnee's civil war against the Seldarine, Auril sided with Araushnee and was cast out of Arvandor with the rest of the losers. Clearly her heart hardened and grew colder in the ages to follow. Auril was presented in Evermeet as if she was a Faerūnian version of one of the Greek Horae, or goddesses of the seasons. In fact, I think it very possible that Auril might actually have been one of the Greek Horae, or at least a fragment or avatar of one that interloped into Faerūn, possibly as a companion to or around the same time as Tyche, the Greek goddess of fate. If so, I am thinking specifically that she could have been Karpo, the goddess of Autumn/Winter. Although, this is just speculation on my part--there is no evidence anywhere to back up this particular theory that Auril might have interloped from the Greek pantheon, still an intriguing notion though. What we do know is that, before Tyche split into Beshaba and Tymora, her realm was called Olympus (named, rather uncreatively, after the plane she came from) and there is some evidence to support that this divine realm was attached to Arvandor. Auril could have lived in Tyche's realm of Olympus, or in a nearby realm on the same plane. After Tyche died, Tymora appears to have renamed her divine realm "Brightwater", and then a few decades back (around 60 years or so according to On Hallowed Ground) she split it off from Arvandor to form her own plane with her fellow goddesses Sune and Lliira.
Dimensional_Drifter 05-19-07, 02:26 AM	Thanks for the information, Gray. I have the book, I just haven't read it yet, still finishing another one first. That sounds about right, Auril as a nature deity of winter the season, then becoming Auril, deity of the harshness of winter and a deity of fury after a fall with the others from that conflict. I wouldn't have thought to associate her with the civil war against Seldarine before.
The Ubbergeek 05-19-07, 02:33 AM	'Balance' is artificial, and rarely makes much sense in religious or mythology... If you think about it, spring, summer, and fall are all 'good' concepts to most cultures. Spring is the time of frolicking and birth, summer is a time of relaxation, and autumn is harvest time. Winter is just... Mean. Depend on what you mean as 'balance'. I say it means much in spirituality, religion, mysticism and esoterism as equilibrum. Day, night.... the four elements.... alpha and omega... I bet there is seasonal aspects to other deities....
Dimensional_Drifter 05-19-07, 02:45 AM	I figured that it seemed a bit unbalanced. I see it two ways when it comes to the seasons and the realms: 1. There are three good deities that have a season in their portfolios (if I'm not mistaken- haven't checked any of the sourcebooks yet to be certain) and one evil deity with a season. Also two of these are greater deities, one intermediate, however Auril is a lesser deity. I understand that their power comes from worship, so it is understandable that with the other portfolios, more worshipers and such they would be more powerful. 2. There could be a good and bad side to each season. If Auril represents the bad aspects of winter, what about the other aspects of winter? But seeing what Gray had said, I think that neither of my above statments matter anyway. However, keeping a balance seems very important to me, seeing that it was something that came up several times in the avatar series, and Ao does seem concerned with a balance in the realms more than anything else. Thus balancing deities and portfolios makes sense. Overall, I guess the seasons aren't such a big deal anyway, unless it was say winter, and you lived in the Silver Marches, Icewind Dale, or something.
Gray Richardson 05-19-07, 03:48 AM	There are two ways to pray to a god, either for supplication or appeasement. In layman's terms that means "Please do this" and "please don't hurt me". Most of Faerūn prays to the evil and unpleasant gods for appeasement--that is to keep the harmful things at bay, avoid the harsher effects of bad weather, war, disease, misfortune and all the other ills the gods can bring to bare. Auril is worshipped for appeasement wherever the climate can become icy. So mostly in the North and the cold places of Faerūn. That would explain why she is a lesser goddess: because her faith simply cannot compete with the other gods in warmer climes. There is little reason to love her and no reason to fear her in those lands where her icy touch cannot reach. In the North, however, she is not well loved, but her power is greatly respected. My favorite bit of lore regarding Auril's worship is found in Volo's Guide to the North, in the Luskan section on p.118:"The Winter Palace is a temple to Auril, the Frost Maiden. The rituals of worship to this deity are often cruel. Visitors gather to watch the “wet parades,” a ritual where supplicants don garments packed with ice and drip their way along the streets. They journey between six white pillars known as the Kisses of Auril. These columns are spread widely throughout the Reach. The worshippers move from pillar to pillar, chanting prayers to the goddess, before returning to the temple. In winter, I’'m told such processions resemble frantic footraces, with the added risk of exposure or heartchill. The wet parade runners are often cheered on by patrons who come out of nearby taverns to place bets on the stamina of the participants."
Borris 05-19-07, 04:50 AM	hmm... I wonder, is that why many religions and cultures have holidays in the winter? To counteract the fact that winter isn't a good thing? I always thought it was more because there simply isn't much to do in the winter. During the rest of the year, nearly every single day has to be spent planting/tending/harvesting crops. You can't afford to take a week's break or your family won't survive until the next year. Once winter comes, however, there jusr isn't much to do. You can only bide your time until spring comes and you'll packed indoors most of the time. Might as well have a few holidays and celebrations to liven things up a little, especially in contrast to how bleak things can be in the dark of winter. Auril (and later Beshaba) would take up residence in Fury's Heart. But isn't Beshaba's realm located on the Barrens of Doom and Despair?
Gray Richardson 05-19-07, 05:33 AM	My mistake, I goofed, yes Beshaba is in the Barrens, I should know better.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 06:54 PM	Also note that the people of Sossal worship a "more benign" version of Auril. So while she may be evil and antagonistic, like many other deities of Faerun, that doesn't mean that people don't respect her and have different views on her. :)
BadCatMan 05-19-07, 09:39 PM	My guess is that the people of Sossal don't have much of a choice about the cold - it's it a matter of living with it, or leaving. They've adapted, and Auril is less likely to try to freeze them as a result. Geography and environment should play a part in how seasonal gods are perceived. In a desert country, winter is the time of the wet season, and is important for crops, while summer brings droughts and suffering.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 09:43 PM	But I doubt people in a desert country would worship Auril much during the winter. More likely, Akadi and maybe Istishia (river floods), and perhaps Talos. And Set.
Soltares 05-20-07, 11:58 AM	I think Meilikki has autumn, Lathander has spring, and Chauntea has summer, and they are all neutral good. It seems to me that it is unbalanced, so evil would make sense. Myrkul used to cover autumn, but obviously he's no longer in the running. Lathander is definitely spring. No idea about summer.
The Ubbergeek 05-20-07, 12:39 PM	Myrkul used to cover autumn, but obviously he's no longer in the running. Lathander is definitely spring. No idea about summer. Chauntea? Silvanus?
Faraer 05-20-07, 12:42 PM	Ah, then there should be something encompassing the other aspects? Should there be a deity that represents what is not bad in winter . . .No, the gods don't work like that.It seems to me that it is unbalanced, so evil would make sense.Where 'balance' means gods associated with weather working out to be neutral? Why? Again, the gods don't work like that.
Khaelieth 05-20-07, 12:55 PM	What about a heresy which venerates the older Auril? I believe she's NE (or CE) so NG would be allowed=)
GothicDan 05-20-07, 01:16 PM	<3 for Faraer. I really get miffed at the idea of a truly polytheistic world trying to be 'balanced' by some people. It worked for Dragonlance in large part because it was accepted that the mythology was 100% true, but FR is far more organic and variable.
Lord_Steve 05-20-07, 05:27 PM	Create your own DemiGod of winter, snow, ice and cold.....and slap ono a NG alignment, some history etc. and you're ready to go.....though Khae has a better idea.....I do think that Auril will still grant her followers of the old aspect spells and such....probably even be kinder to them shrugs Hmmmmmm.....A Fire Genasi worshipper of Auril in Calimshan.....oh the picture makes me laugh!!!!
Borris 05-25-07, 04:43 AM	According to the portfolios in Faiths and Pantheons. Lathander is the god of spring. Chauntea is the goddess of summer. Mielikki is the goddess of autumn. (though it used to be Myrkul) Auril is the goddess of winter.
GothWulf 05-25-07, 09:55 AM	hmm... I wonder, is that why many religions and cultures have holidays in the winter? To counteract the fact that winter isn't a good thing? Ah, but without winter, you couldn't compare it to other seasons. Like how good cannot exist without evil to compare it to. Anyway, I just kind of thought that a balance was important in the realms. I would say that its more of a rememberance of a time when Auril was a kinder, sweeter Goddess...the holidays origionally started out to celebrate Her coming and honor Her, only later turning to merely "something good to get us through this damn cold" Wulfe
Perun 05-28-07, 01:50 AM	hmm... I wonder, is that why many religions and cultures have holidays in the winter? To counteract the fact that winter isn't a good thing? Ah, but without winter, you couldn't compare it to other seasons. Like how good cannot exist without evil to compare it to. If I remember right, most winter festivals come around the time of the winter solstice, a day with the longest night in the whole year. On this day sun (or spring) defeats cold (winter) as days become longer and the people know the warmer times are coming. That's the real world (well, some parts of it anyway). I don't remember if there's an official explanation in the Realms. However, IIRC, most festivals on Faerūn fall on the seasonal festival days (Midwinter, Greengrass, Midsummer, Highharvestide, the Feast of the Moon). Regards.