Azuth in 4E [Archive] - Wizards Community

Azuth in 4E [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Telagaunt
03-07-08, 04:55 PM Has anything been said as to what fate he will have in 4E?
Strife026
03-07-08, 05:06 PM i dont think they have released anything more than what was said in GHOTR, but Richard Baker said in his thread that they are likely going to preview the deities within the next month or two so i guess we'll just have to wait.
Todesherr
03-07-08, 08:41 PM Pretty much dead I would say...
Myssa Rei
03-08-08, 12:31 AM MIA as far as anyone is concerned, since he and Velsharoon were blasted off to the Astral with Mystra's death and the collapse of Dweomerheart. I'm in the camp that thinks he's not dead, but proabably won't be part of divine politics for some time.
Lord Karsus
03-08-08, 01:35 AM MIA as far as anyone is concerned, since he and Velsharoon were blasted off to the Astral with Mystra's death and the collapse of Dweomerheart. I'm in the camp that thinks he's not dead, but proabably won't be part of divine politics for some time.

-Agreed. Personally, I think finding out about the 'exploits of Velsharoon and Azuth' can be fairly interesting. (Long time, no see. How have you been, by the way?)
Zsych
03-08-08, 07:32 PM I expect it would make a decent campaign module for followers of Mystra, trying to reclaim something of their lost past(Velsharoon more someone evil characters would want back I suppose).

Generally though, gods of magic having been axed is not that big an issue in a world with free magic access for everyone.
Telagaunt
03-08-08, 10:25 PM Idk, granted Azuth is a 'minor deity', he's always been an extremely powerful being IMO, especially as a mortal. Which would be interesting too, if maybe he just becomes a mortal after Mystra's death :P
Zsych
03-08-08, 11:16 PM Probably not mortal, but fallen to demigod status is understandable.
Probably in the 10 years of the spell plague, the clergy at least of Mystra, Azuth and Velsharoon are going to disintegrate, so they need help before that happens or there will be almost no one to maintain their faiths :P

In the 100 years before the start of 4E though... they're pretty much gonna be finished, though wizards seeking old lore might find it interesting to find these guys if they expect weave based magical knowledge to be somewhat useful.
Telagaunt
03-08-08, 11:29 PM Idk if Azuth would be 'finished'. Unless maybe age and disease came into effect for him. Avatar standing wise from the old gods sourcebook, he's the most leveled and classed of them all, with a non-ECL'd CR of 60. Statistically speaking, spellplague or no spellplague, he should be able to survive lol. If say he were to lose all his god powers, he still would theoretically have all that power, plus w/e (I forget exactly what), a Magister gets.
Dark Wizard
03-09-08, 12:32 AM The powers of the magister were powered by Mystra and the Weave, as are his chosen powers. Those would go with whatever happens to the Weave-tied abilities of the other Chosen.

I have a feeling, if WotC is really serious about the no-magic-deity policy, that both will remain far removed from the actual happenings of Faerun for some time. Both will remain as demigods or exarchs in power. Perhaps after a time, they will return as minor deities of magic in the way Boccob and Wee Jas are deities of magic, mostly neutral and hands off for the most part.

On the other hand, there is a chance Wizards might see the century jump as removed enough to introduce Azuth as a Boccob-like god of magic in the new Realms as a way to fill the ranks and also throw a bone to the old hierarchy. Things will not be the same as when Mystra was around, but it's just superficially similar enough to provide everyone with something to work with according to their own game.
Alleran
03-09-08, 04:45 AM Those would go with whatever happens to the Weave-tied abilities of the other Chosen.
Part of the abilities of the Chosen is actual possession of a portion of divine essence - it isn't a rent-based Weave-access thing that Mystra is granting them, it's an actual chunk of divine essence that they actually "own" (so to speak). Once Mystra gives her power to a mortal and makes them a Chosen, she can't "take it back" whenever she pleases (ref. Sammaster - Mystra had to have Azuth remove it, because attempting to do so herself would mean she would lose the power he held forever).

Since divine essence don't tend to automatically vanish with the death of the one who put it there (e.g. Baneliches carry some of Bane's essence yet didn't all instantly die upon Bane's death, and the Chosen didn't immediately lose their silver fire/whatever when Mystra died during the ToT either), and nor is it "Weave-tied", there's no reason for those abilities to suddenly disappear. To get rid of those powers, the divine essence would/should need to be manually removed from each and every one of Mystra's Chosen, regardless of whether Mystra is still alive or not. Since Azuth is one who holds some of that divine essence, he'd have to actually be hunted down and killed to get rid of those abilities.
Todesherr
03-09-08, 05:27 AM Meh...no god of magic works for me...

It was always weird for me the way Mystra could do whatever she wanted with other gods....you no weave access, you no spells to clergy...etc....

Much better now...

Magic should be a cosmic abstraction, not a human wizard turned goddess.
Lord Karsus
03-09-08, 08:12 AM Probably not mortal, but fallen to demigod status is understandable.

-It is my belief that Azuth will become an 'exarch' (saint) of Oghma.

-Velsharoon? A similar fate, but perhaps tied to Shar.
Zsych
03-09-08, 11:15 PM Shar might be going too far. Maybe Azuth and Velsharoon will become friends in the time they spend together trying to escape whatever abyss they've been banished to.

Personally, I'm not sure these guys can afford to be worship-less gods. Most of those don't fare well.
Dark Wizard
03-10-08, 12:38 AM Part of the abilities of the Chosen is actual possession of a portion of divine essence - it isn't a rent-based Weave-access thing that Mystra is granting them, it's an actual chunk of divine essence that they actually "own" (so to speak). Once Mystra gives her power to a mortal and makes them a Chosen, she can't "take it back" whenever she pleases (ref. Sammaster - Mystra had to have Azuth remove it, because attempting to do so herself would mean she would lose the power he held forever).

Since divine essence don't tend to automatically vanish with the death of the one who put it there (e.g. Baneliches carry some of Bane's essence yet didn't all instantly die upon Bane's death, and the Chosen didn't immediately lose their silver fire/whatever when Mystra died during the ToT either), and nor is it "Weave-tied", there's no reason for those abilities to suddenly disappear. To get rid of those powers, the divine essence would/should need to be manually removed from each and every one of Mystra's Chosen, regardless of whether Mystra is still alive or not. Since Azuth is one who holds some of that divine essence, he'd have to actually be hunted down and killed to get rid of those abilities.

I have an idea of how the Chosen abilities work given the time I've spent here seeing posters well versed in that lore explaining it numerous times. That is exactly why I think WotC will change it. It flies in the face of what they are trying to accomplish. I think it is very likely, with the way they approached magic for 4E and given they feel it necessary to emphasize their blatant destruction of the Mystra and the Weave, that the Chosen abilities along with anything related to the Weave will be dealt with. It prevents the easy resurrection of Mystra and it depowers the Chosen, which WotC perceives as an obstacle to the wider appeal of the Realms.

At least if they are at all serious about this No-Mystra policy of theirs. They might gather up these essences as a plot hook for later use, in case they want to bring someone like Mystra back, but for the most part, I think they will try to reduce the attention given Mystra, the Weave, the Chosen and anything related to them to an absolute minimum.

Shar might be going too far. Maybe Azuth and Velsharoon will become friends in the time they spend together trying to escape whatever abyss they've been banished to.

Personally, I'm not sure these guys can afford to be worship-less gods. Most of those don't fare well.

I don't know, the stories of Azuth as a mortal were pretty impressive. Given that he had a few millennia as a god to learn in the ins and out of spellcasting, I think he would fair okay. He will pick up the 4E system easily, he's a smart guy. Velsharoon might do fine himself, if he didn't have Talos hungry to absorb him.
Alleran
03-10-08, 12:53 AM It was always weird for me the way Mystra could do whatever she wanted with other gods....you no weave access, you no spells to clergy...etc....
Er... you realise that by doing that, Mystra risks upsetting the Balance, which she is sworn to maintain, right? In other words, she isn't "allowed" to revoke their access to the Weave - there were two whole books on it, plus parts of Elminster's Daughter discussing how Mystra is now being impartial (still with 10th level magic restrictions and so on, of course, but she isn't actively denying the Weave to anybody unless they deliberately intend to harm said Weave) with how the Weave is accessed, and by who.

And you conveniently forgot that Shar has the Shadow Weave, too.

That is exactly why I think WotC will change it.
The problem, as I see it, is that they might be able to ignore things to push their own model of how everything works, but that won't make those same things go away. They might say that silver fire vanishes without access to the Weave, yet that doesn't remove the instances where it's been used in dead magic zones. All it does is create an inconsistency (quite a large one), which they haven't been able to explain as far as I am aware (I checked the Candlekeep Author/Designer question forum, too - Rich Baker never responded to the question when he was "called out" on it).
Zsych
03-10-08, 01:14 AM Seems Mystra and all her limitations on magic have been completely axed, although there's no guarantee that the equivalent of 10th level magic will surface soon.
And in general magic is now going to be even more free than it was under Mystryl(when regular artisans and everyday people used magic as part of their professions).. although again, you'd have to wait for someone to understand the underlying nature of magic to a degree that they can teach ordinary people that type of magic.
Dark Wizard
03-10-08, 02:53 AM The problem, as I see it, is that they might be able to ignore things to push their own model of how everything works, but that won't make those same things go away. They might say that silver fire vanishes without access to the Weave, yet that doesn't remove the instances where it's been used in dead magic zones. All it does is create an inconsistency (quite a large one), which they haven't been able to explain as far as I am aware (I checked the Candlekeep Author/Designer question forum, too - Rich Baker never responded to the question when he was "called out" on it).

Quite true. I don't like the changes in this regard, partly because they will be so difficult to rework. And we all know lots of revision to something established after 20 years of support will lead to problems.

I just see this as another loose end that WotC should tie up if they're hoping to have their new "It" event stick around for longer than a year, otherwise it will be trivial for gamers and authors to return everything to how it was pre-Spellplague. Most RSEs don't work because of this reason. It's very difficult to solidify the changer's mark on the setting, then you end up with an incoherent half-change, half-revival.
glitter
03-10-08, 09:09 AM I have a feeling, if WotC is really serious about the no-magic-deity policy, that both will remain far removed from the actual happenings of Faerun for some time. Both will remain as demigods or exarchs in power. Perhaps after a time, they will return as minor deities of magic in the way Boccob and Wee Jas are deities of magic, mostly neutral and hands off for the most part.

Perhaps we could be even more cynic.
Perhaps the fact that they survive is jost for WotC to keep a jocker should a massive percentage of players asked for a rollback to a situation closer to the previous one.
On the other hand, without the need of a god of magic, they can kill him easily (no followers).
Lord Karsus
03-10-08, 09:14 AM Shar might be going too far.

-Shar has been courting Velsharoon in the past few years. With Mystra gone, she is the only "ally" he has.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
03-10-08, 01:20 PM Seems Mystra and all her limitations on magic have been completely axed, although there's no guarantee that the equivalent of 10th level magic will surface soon.
And in general magic is now going to be even more free than it was under Mystryl(when regular artisans and everyday people used magic as part of their professions)...

And where was this stated for a fact?
Lord Karsus
03-10-08, 05:43 PM And where was this stated for a fact?

-You should know Zsych by now! ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
03-10-08, 08:34 PM -You should know Zsych by now! ;)

I suppose you're right.:bored:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Telagaunt 03-07-08, 04:55 PM	Has anything been said as to what fate he will have in 4E?
Strife026 03-07-08, 05:06 PM	i dont think they have released anything more than what was said in GHOTR, but Richard Baker said in his thread that they are likely going to preview the deities within the next month or two so i guess we'll just have to wait.
Todesherr 03-07-08, 08:41 PM	Pretty much dead I would say...
Myssa Rei 03-08-08, 12:31 AM	MIA as far as anyone is concerned, since he and Velsharoon were blasted off to the Astral with Mystra's death and the collapse of Dweomerheart. I'm in the camp that thinks he's not dead, but proabably won't be part of divine politics for some time.
Lord Karsus 03-08-08, 01:35 AM	MIA as far as anyone is concerned, since he and Velsharoon were blasted off to the Astral with Mystra's death and the collapse of Dweomerheart. I'm in the camp that thinks he's not dead, but proabably won't be part of divine politics for some time. -Agreed. Personally, I think finding out about the 'exploits of Velsharoon and Azuth' can be fairly interesting. (Long time, no see. How have you been, by the way?)
Zsych 03-08-08, 07:32 PM	I expect it would make a decent campaign module for followers of Mystra, trying to reclaim something of their lost past(Velsharoon more someone evil characters would want back I suppose). Generally though, gods of magic having been axed is not that big an issue in a world with free magic access for everyone.
Telagaunt 03-08-08, 10:25 PM	Idk, granted Azuth is a 'minor deity', he's always been an extremely powerful being IMO, especially as a mortal. Which would be interesting too, if maybe he just becomes a mortal after Mystra's death :P
Zsych 03-08-08, 11:16 PM	Probably not mortal, but fallen to demigod status is understandable. Probably in the 10 years of the spell plague, the clergy at least of Mystra, Azuth and Velsharoon are going to disintegrate, so they need help before that happens or there will be almost no one to maintain their faiths :P In the 100 years before the start of 4E though... they're pretty much gonna be finished, though wizards seeking old lore might find it interesting to find these guys if they expect weave based magical knowledge to be somewhat useful.
Telagaunt 03-08-08, 11:29 PM	Idk if Azuth would be 'finished'. Unless maybe age and disease came into effect for him. Avatar standing wise from the old gods sourcebook, he's the most leveled and classed of them all, with a non-ECL'd CR of 60. Statistically speaking, spellplague or no spellplague, he should be able to survive lol. If say he were to lose all his god powers, he still would theoretically have all that power, plus w/e (I forget exactly what), a Magister gets.
Dark Wizard 03-09-08, 12:32 AM	The powers of the magister were powered by Mystra and the Weave, as are his chosen powers. Those would go with whatever happens to the Weave-tied abilities of the other Chosen. I have a feeling, if WotC is really serious about the no-magic-deity policy, that both will remain far removed from the actual happenings of Faerun for some time. Both will remain as demigods or exarchs in power. Perhaps after a time, they will return as minor deities of magic in the way Boccob and Wee Jas are deities of magic, mostly neutral and hands off for the most part. On the other hand, there is a chance Wizards might see the century jump as removed enough to introduce Azuth as a Boccob-like god of magic in the new Realms as a way to fill the ranks and also throw a bone to the old hierarchy. Things will not be the same as when Mystra was around, but it's just superficially similar enough to provide everyone with something to work with according to their own game.
Alleran 03-09-08, 04:45 AM	Those would go with whatever happens to the Weave-tied abilities of the other Chosen. Part of the abilities of the Chosen is actual possession of a portion of divine essence - it isn't a rent-based Weave-access thing that Mystra is granting them, it's an actual chunk of divine essence that they actually "own" (so to speak). Once Mystra gives her power to a mortal and makes them a Chosen, she can't "take it back" whenever she pleases (ref. Sammaster - Mystra had to have Azuth remove it, because attempting to do so herself would mean she would lose the power he held forever). Since divine essence don't tend to automatically vanish with the death of the one who put it there (e.g. Baneliches carry some of Bane's essence yet didn't all instantly die upon Bane's death, and the Chosen didn't immediately lose their silver fire/whatever when Mystra died during the ToT either), and nor is it "Weave-tied", there's no reason for those abilities to suddenly disappear. To get rid of those powers, the divine essence would/should need to be manually removed from each and every one of Mystra's Chosen, regardless of whether Mystra is still alive or not. Since Azuth is one who holds some of that divine essence, he'd have to actually be hunted down and killed to get rid of those abilities.
Todesherr 03-09-08, 05:27 AM	Meh...no god of magic works for me... It was always weird for me the way Mystra could do whatever she wanted with other gods....you no weave access, you no spells to clergy...etc.... Much better now... Magic should be a cosmic abstraction, not a human wizard turned goddess.
Lord Karsus 03-09-08, 08:12 AM	Probably not mortal, but fallen to demigod status is understandable. -It is my belief that Azuth will become an 'exarch' (saint) of Oghma. -Velsharoon? A similar fate, but perhaps tied to Shar.
Zsych 03-09-08, 11:15 PM	Shar might be going too far. Maybe Azuth and Velsharoon will become friends in the time they spend together trying to escape whatever abyss they've been banished to. Personally, I'm not sure these guys can afford to be worship-less gods. Most of those don't fare well.
Dark Wizard 03-10-08, 12:38 AM	Part of the abilities of the Chosen is actual possession of a portion of divine essence - it isn't a rent-based Weave-access thing that Mystra is granting them, it's an actual chunk of divine essence that they actually "own" (so to speak). Once Mystra gives her power to a mortal and makes them a Chosen, she can't "take it back" whenever she pleases (ref. Sammaster - Mystra had to have Azuth remove it, because attempting to do so herself would mean she would lose the power he held forever). Since divine essence don't tend to automatically vanish with the death of the one who put it there (e.g. Baneliches carry some of Bane's essence yet didn't all instantly die upon Bane's death, and the Chosen didn't immediately lose their silver fire/whatever when Mystra died during the ToT either), and nor is it "Weave-tied", there's no reason for those abilities to suddenly disappear. To get rid of those powers, the divine essence would/should need to be manually removed from each and every one of Mystra's Chosen, regardless of whether Mystra is still alive or not. Since Azuth is one who holds some of that divine essence, he'd have to actually be hunted down and killed to get rid of those abilities. I have an idea of how the Chosen abilities work given the time I've spent here seeing posters well versed in that lore explaining it numerous times. That is exactly why I think WotC will change it. It flies in the face of what they are trying to accomplish. I think it is very likely, with the way they approached magic for 4E and given they feel it necessary to emphasize their blatant destruction of the Mystra and the Weave, that the Chosen abilities along with anything related to the Weave will be dealt with. It prevents the easy resurrection of Mystra and it depowers the Chosen, which WotC perceives as an obstacle to the wider appeal of the Realms. At least if they are at all serious about this No-Mystra policy of theirs. They might gather up these essences as a plot hook for later use, in case they want to bring someone like Mystra back, but for the most part, I think they will try to reduce the attention given Mystra, the Weave, the Chosen and anything related to them to an absolute minimum. Shar might be going too far. Maybe Azuth and Velsharoon will become friends in the time they spend together trying to escape whatever abyss they've been banished to. Personally, I'm not sure these guys can afford to be worship-less gods. Most of those don't fare well. I don't know, the stories of Azuth as a mortal were pretty impressive. Given that he had a few millennia as a god to learn in the ins and out of spellcasting, I think he would fair okay. He will pick up the 4E system easily, he's a smart guy. Velsharoon might do fine himself, if he didn't have Talos hungry to absorb him.
Alleran 03-10-08, 12:53 AM	It was always weird for me the way Mystra could do whatever she wanted with other gods....you no weave access, you no spells to clergy...etc.... Er... you realise that by doing that, Mystra risks upsetting the Balance, which she is sworn to maintain, right? In other words, she isn't "allowed" to revoke their access to the Weave - there were two whole books on it, plus parts of Elminster's Daughter discussing how Mystra is now being impartial (still with 10th level magic restrictions and so on, of course, but she isn't actively denying the Weave to anybody unless they deliberately intend to harm said Weave) with how the Weave is accessed, and by who. And you conveniently forgot that Shar has the Shadow Weave, too. That is exactly why I think WotC will change it. The problem, as I see it, is that they might be able to ignore things to push their own model of how everything works, but that won't make those same things go away. They might say that silver fire vanishes without access to the Weave, yet that doesn't remove the instances where it's been used in dead magic zones. All it does is create an inconsistency (quite a large one), which they haven't been able to explain as far as I am aware (I checked the Candlekeep Author/Designer question forum, too - Rich Baker never responded to the question when he was "called out" on it).
Zsych 03-10-08, 01:14 AM	Seems Mystra and all her limitations on magic have been completely axed, although there's no guarantee that the equivalent of 10th level magic will surface soon. And in general magic is now going to be even more free than it was under Mystryl(when regular artisans and everyday people used magic as part of their professions).. although again, you'd have to wait for someone to understand the underlying nature of magic to a degree that they can teach ordinary people that type of magic.
Dark Wizard 03-10-08, 02:53 AM	The problem, as I see it, is that they might be able to ignore things to push their own model of how everything works, but that won't make those same things go away. They might say that silver fire vanishes without access to the Weave, yet that doesn't remove the instances where it's been used in dead magic zones. All it does is create an inconsistency (quite a large one), which they haven't been able to explain as far as I am aware (I checked the Candlekeep Author/Designer question forum, too - Rich Baker never responded to the question when he was "called out" on it). Quite true. I don't like the changes in this regard, partly because they will be so difficult to rework. And we all know lots of revision to something established after 20 years of support will lead to problems. I just see this as another loose end that WotC should tie up if they're hoping to have their new "It" event stick around for longer than a year, otherwise it will be trivial for gamers and authors to return everything to how it was pre-Spellplague. Most RSEs don't work because of this reason. It's very difficult to solidify the changer's mark on the setting, then you end up with an incoherent half-change, half-revival.
glitter 03-10-08, 09:09 AM	I have a feeling, if WotC is really serious about the no-magic-deity policy, that both will remain far removed from the actual happenings of Faerun for some time. Both will remain as demigods or exarchs in power. Perhaps after a time, they will return as minor deities of magic in the way Boccob and Wee Jas are deities of magic, mostly neutral and hands off for the most part. Perhaps we could be even more cynic. Perhaps the fact that they survive is jost for WotC to keep a jocker should a massive percentage of players asked for a rollback to a situation closer to the previous one. On the other hand, without the need of a god of magic, they can kill him easily (no followers).
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 09:14 AM	Shar might be going too far. -Shar has been courting Velsharoon in the past few years. With Mystra gone, she is the only "ally" he has.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-10-08, 01:20 PM	Seems Mystra and all her limitations on magic have been completely axed, although there's no guarantee that the equivalent of 10th level magic will surface soon. And in general magic is now going to be even more free than it was under Mystryl(when regular artisans and everyday people used magic as part of their professions)... And where was this stated for a fact?
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 05:43 PM	And where was this stated for a fact? -You should know Zsych by now! ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-10-08, 08:34 PM	-You should know Zsych by now! ;) I suppose you're right.:bored: