Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meldread 06-21-07, 04:33 AM	I'm looking for information on Baernaloths and Yugoloths (but mostly Baernaloths). Especially in how and when they came about in the Realm's. Ideas and speculation is also helpful.
XHereticX 06-21-07, 08:03 AM	wait for shem to come. In the mean time, this link should be helpful http://www.planewalker.com/fiction/index.php Check out the Baernaloth articles, they are great reads:)
Gray Richardson 06-21-07, 09:09 AM	Baernaloths were the progenitors of the yugoloth race in the plane of the Gray Waste of Hades in the neighboring Greyhawk cosmology of the Great Wheel. The yugoloths are the exemplars of True Evil. They are tied strongly to the alignment planes of the Great Wheel. As such, they did not have much of a presence in the early days of the Great Tree cosmology. The Baernaloths appear to be mostly retired, or withdrawn from affairs of the universe, leaving it to their offspring the yugoloths. Although they may be directing things secretly. Over in the Realms, when Faerūn's universe was young, the sister gods of light and darkness, Selūne and Shar, had a falling out over the creation of a sun to warm Chauntea. I like to think a Baernaloth, or an Ultraloth, was attracted to Shar's pain and despair, and came to the Great Tree to nurture her pain, tutoring her in the ways of evil and fanning the fires of her pain into a roaring conflagration. He introduced Shar to the concept of travel by Shadow to the Great Wheel and introduced her to fiend lords, the Baern, the archdukes of Baator, the demon princes, and helped her negotiate for their services, bringing fiends en masse to the Great Tree as an army to attack her sister. After the War of Light and Darkness, the fiends set up shop in the Great Tree and stayed. The yugoloths in particular took up residence in the Barrens of Doom & Despair. But apparently, the myths say that the yugoloths so angered the gods of that plane, that the gods split off their part of that plane to form the separate plane of the Blood Rift. The ultraloth hierarchy now lives on the highest volcano of the blood rift, mount Calaas, named for the mountain in Gehenna from which they originally hailed. The leader of the yugoloths is Kexxon who lholds the title Oinoloth of the Great Tree, and he lives in the Steel Keep which sits atop the lip of the caldera at the very top of mount Calaas. Second highest yugoloth is Inthrasis who lives in a keep called Corpsehaven a little farther down from the top. And below him is Bubonis, who lives in the Obsidian Tower a little bit farther down the slope. There are still yugoloths that live in the Barrens of Doom and Despair too. A sizable faction lives in a place called the Pits of the Yugoloths, which are ruled over there by Malkizid, the Branded King, a fallen solar, turned yugoloth lord (after a stint as a high powered devil in the Nine Hells).
Meldread 06-21-07, 10:48 AM	Thanks Heretic. I had already read those pieces written by Shem. I've been stalking him around via Google reading things he's written in the past. Gray, thanks for your response and it goes along with the idea I was playing with. That a particularly powerful Baernaloth was attracted to Toril in the beginning and is responsible for "guiding" Shar down the dark path that she chose, in a way shaping her into what she has become.
XHereticX 06-21-07, 10:54 AM	I like that idea too, it really makes sense and actually gives the fiends a story and a fundemental importence in the Great Tree cosmology. Still, do the Baern dwell anywhere in the Great Tree and how are they involved in Toril is what I have always wondered. If I get to see one in the Emphyryan Trilogy it would be great.:D
Meldread 06-21-07, 02:17 PM	I've taken some of Shem's concepts and created what I am going to call a "True Baernaloth" a being that existed outside of the Great Tree, and first arrived after Shar had her falling out with her sister. One might think of him as the "father" of all evil on Toril in one fashion or another. Some feedback would be great this is just a rough first draft. Ashnakh Mul Mozgakloth The Last Herald, the Harbinger of Despair, the Doombringer, the Last Lord, Ashnakh Mul Mozgakloth appears as an ancient yet mundane human of only average height. His body appears frail and physically wasted from the ravages of time. His eyes are white and clouded from what appears to be atrophy making him seem blind. His hair is as white as pure fallen snow, hanging just past the length of his shoulders and is unkempt. He is never seen without his walking staff, which appears little more than a gnarled oak or dark elm branch that he leans upon to steady himself and to aid in walking. He typically is seen wearing little more than a mundane brown sackcloth robe with a hood pulled just slightly over his forehead to cover his eyes. He speaks with a soft yet raspy voice that is neither loud nor overly emotional. Always he sounds impartial, indifferent and seems to lack the ability to anger, taunt or otherwise distract. Each word he speaks seems carefully chosen and well placed as if he spent ages considering what to say. He is prone to long bouts of silence before speaking and always seems to hear the things left unsaid. Ashnakh appears little more than a mundane old man, sagely in his actions, but little more than average in all ways. Yet the deception does not fool any who truly know him and few truly do until it is too late. Known as the Last Herald Ashnakh Mul Mozgakloth refers to himself as one of the last True Baernaloths. He takes a bemused interest in those who call themselves Baernaloth today and sees them little more than wishful children that some day may have promise. He is marked with patients that even deities find mind boggling, and a sure but quiet dispassionate confidence that is unsettling at best. Few know of his existence and even those that do know little. There are a litany of deceptions that he has spread about his own past and nature, many of them whispered into the ears of sages, wizards and scholars over countless millennia to the point where they have gained a libelous mass, turning them from utter lies into accepted truth. He plays with truth and reality bending it and making it his own. Nothing about him can be taken at face value, for he is a deception within a deception, an enigma within an enigma. He claims to be neither deity nor fiend but something "greater than both", and there is little reason to doubt such a claim, for even deities themselves - those that know of his existence - tread carefully and with respect. Even Asmodeus himself has been known to stand before Ashnakh with bowed head and bended knee, and some claim that if it was the will of the Doombringer that he could end the Blood War with but a simple word. Yet of all the power he seems to wield, he uses it little. He prefers to watch the countless prime material worlds and their planes and only occasionally meddles in an indirect fashion. His patients are eternal for he was born of an Elemental Evil that exists outside of all known cosmologies and prime material planes. He is but a visitor to the Great Tree, a worm that has taken root at the core of Lord Ao's universe that watches silently from the darkened shadows. It is uncertain of how Lord Ao feels about Ashnakh or even if he knows of his existence, for the Last Lord has made passing references concerning the Overdeity that may lead one to believe that they share a similar level of understanding or power, though both seem hard to believe. While Lord Ao concerned himself with the creation of Toril and its Great Tree, Ashnakh concerns himself only with its death and he is clear on the inevitability of it. The Last Lord claims to have walked upon countless prime Material Worlds, watching as their deities slowly died, dissipating into the Astral Plane. He heralds that all deities of the multiverse shall see their works crumble to dust, their memories defiled, and that dreams of death, hatred and destruction shall fly forth from their nightmares to plague the minds of all, but that is only a foretaste of what shall come in the end. It is rumored that he was attracted to the Great Tree by the pain and despair of Shar at the falling out she had with her sister and that he played a key role in their war. It is certain that he, at least in the beginning, had a close relationship with the dark goddess that seemed to border on something between a father and a mentor. He is also said to have had (and still has) a close relationship with Jergal and there is speculation that he even played a role in the creation of the deity. What roles he is playing now is unknown as well as his location. He has been silent for many centuries though few think he has left or is dead. Only watching and waiting. Powers and Abilities: Like all Baernaloths, the Doombringer displays a surreal ability to manipulate and control other fiends, though his ability is more overt and powerful than most. Yuggoloths appear to view him almost like children to a father, with respect bordering on worship, though in no record event has he been observed consciously directing or controlling them; the loths simply appear to want to follow. Baatezu and Tanar'ri are likewise subject to his whims, with any non-unique example of either race being immediately subject to his control if he wishes it to be so. (For unique specimens, DM's should feel free to assign the save DC at whatever they feel is appropriately high given his nature and status.) Even deities do not seem to be immune to this ability, while not overtly controlled they will nonetheless feel cowed by his nature while in his presence. This ability does not seem to be used consciously by Ashnakh and seems innate to his very nature. He seems to possess the ability to deceive all within his presence, either by modifying their perceptions or their memories to weave for them false events. He has demonstrated an ability to draw persons toward him without their conscious perception of their paths being altered, and some have even suggested that he has some ability to warp concepts of distance and location in order to draw an individual toward himself. It is believed that he has walked upon countless Prime Material Worlds, and that whenever he does so, the places he visits are decimated by plague, civil war, or religious genocides never before seen on their world. Peaceful cities devolve into fractionalized city-states torn apart by religious or racial strife, political conflicts among their noble houses, or exterminated in plagues that spare none of them. It is not so much a conscious effort in which he does these things; instead, they seem to happen naturally, the places and people around him becoming warped by the supreme elemental evil from which he has been carved. He does however seem to possess the ability to suppress these powers, appearing as nothing more than a mundane old man. To those that know him and have stood within the presence of his power this is often even more unsettling.
XHereticX 06-21-07, 02:35 PM	genius, pure genius, hmm, I might try my own hand at making a Baern That guy seems a little too powerful though, to think there is a race of "elder Baern" that rival the greatest deities in might and power...
Meldread 06-21-07, 04:37 PM	That's my general thinking. I'm looking at them as a super elder race that is the precursor to all evil in the universe - perhaps even the first original physical manifestations of evil itself. These original Baern then spawned all the lesser evils, demons, devils and the like. The whole Blood War is nothing more than a cosmic experiment by these creatures to produce the ultimate evil through a form of Darwinian evolution. It is their attempt to create a race that most closely emulates the "true evil" that spawned them. Ashnakh Mul Mozgakloth is, more or less, one of the few progenitors of all the evil in the multiverse. He is one of the original and not the pale imitations that exist today. I am toying with the idea that he may have actually been behind the creation of the fiends here on Toril, in a sense beginning the process of the evolution of evil again here within the Great Tree itself. So in a sense Ashnakh is somewhat like a fungus within the Great Tree, from him spawned the Baern of Toril (he is their Father), and from them evolved the other loths and the original demons and devils. I might even go as far as to reorganize my hells and abyss too more accurately reflect the Great Tree. Though the fundamentals would most likely remain the same. Therefore, whoever is left standing at the end of the Blood War, the Supreme Race, is the victors and will go on to seed other Prime Material Worlds with their spawn to begin the evolution again. I'm thinking that Ashnakh may have undergone a similar evolution and may ultimately be the one left standing. I am tossing around a lot of ideas and concepts.
XHereticX 06-21-07, 05:09 PM	Reminds me of the outer gods from Lovecraft's works;) Hmm, I got a new idea, maybe the elder Baern were actually originally from the Far Realm, and it is from there that they actually brought forth the concept of evil to the multiverse. Law and chaos ogically seemed to originate in the wheel itself, with the whole twin serpants myth, but evil could have spawned from somewhere else... Also, I have a funny feeling that some other beings such as the Dark Lords of Ravenloft and Tharizdun are also related to diabolical beginning (maybe they were just elder baern who became something different later)
Shemeska the Marauder 06-21-07, 05:36 PM	Here's a prelude I wrote some time ago as a preface for the series of baernaloth themed stories I've written. “Strangely, the Book of Keeping makes no mention whatsoever of the Baernaloth.” – Planes of Conflict Hidden in the depths of the Three Glooms of the Gray Waste lie the monuments and forgotten artifacts of the first fiends, the Baernaloths. They are the self-proclaimed harbingers of abstract evil. They are the creators of the Yugoloths, the subtle puppet masters of the other fiends and the minds behind the origins and continued genocide of the Blood War. Most of them are gone, vanished back to whence they came, or quiet and brooding in solitude in the utter hinterlands of the Waste. But not all of them are vanished or quiescent. “Apparently madness is not an affliction to which Baernaloths are immune.” –Planes of Conflict They are called mad by their own kind, but they are feared and respected by their children the Yugoloths with a fervor that borders upon worship. While the Oinoloth and even the General of Gehenna are viewed by most ‘loth as the greatest of their kind, examples to envy, holders of titles and positions that they themselves might one day overtake by force of will, the Baern are something else entirely… “Likewise, at least one Baernaloth serves as advisor and confidant to the most prominent Ultroloth masters. These Baernaloths are referred to as The Demented. Their madness is not a raving, hysterical insanity, but an insidious, mind-altering malady. The Demented, individually, or in a group, decide that they are going to attempt to control the events around them, subtly subjugating the creatures of the Lower Planes while plotting the destruction of all things. Somehow, they have decided to embrace -both- ends of the ethical spectrum, seeking rigid order and utter devastation at the same time.” – Planes of Conflict Thirteen in all, gathered together and aligned for some unknown purpose, they are brothers and sisters as old as the planes themselves, made of the stuff of mortal nightmares and mortal sins taken flesh. And here they are, what little is known of them in name, form, goals and motivations. Some of these tales come from the very mouths of the Baern in question itself. But then again, one must question the accuracy of a being that more than any others deserves and revels in the title of fiend.
Meldread 06-21-07, 05:36 PM	That's my line of general thinking. Ashnakh Mul Mozgakloth is not a deity or a fiend he is something greater than both. He achieved this either through being born that way or evolving into it over the process of countless millennia eventually outwitting and out powering all others to be the 'Supreme' specimen of his race. Then he went forth to find other Prime Material Worlds, creating planes which he then seeded with his spawn, and watching them evolve over time while eventually slowly over countless more millennia ushering in the destruction of those Prime Worlds. He would either then abort this experiment for various reasons, or achieve what he believes to be a supreme specimen, which then goes out and seeds prime worlds of its own... Ashnakh Mul Mozgakloth would be almost impossibly ancient, older than anything in the Torillion Universe itself... perhaps even having some relationship to Ao. (Has anyone ever asked where he came from - perhaps he came from a similar process of a different species?) I don't imagine Ashnakh having a true physical form. He can take on any appearance that he chooses, but he is beyond such things - his true form would be some type of evil energy itself. Perhaps even Aberrations such as the Illithid and Beholders have some connection to the Baernaloth - failed experiments perhaps? It would explain why they are almost always universally evil.
Meldread 06-21-07, 05:42 PM	Shemeska- Have you ever hypothesized how the Baern, 'loths, and the whole Blood War thing has played out in the Great Tree? Since it was a recon I am under the impression that Toril has always been in the Great Tree and was never part of the Wheel Cosmology, so how would have things played out here?
Shemeska the Marauder 06-21-07, 05:48 PM	Much of the material you might wander upon online about the baern has my hand in it. I've been rather prolific regarding them in the past few years. There have only been a few mentions of the baern by name in 3e: Fiendish Codex I mentions that incredibly ancient sources describe the baernaloths as having created the obyriths and ancient baatorians. Later in the book this statement is mirrored in part by the dying obyrith lord Bechard who relates the obyrith portion of the legend to Yeenoghu. Dragon magazine 357 has an article by Eric Boyd (which incorporates some FR lore as it includes Gargauth in the backstory of Astaroth in the Wells of Darkness). This article mentions how the obyrith lord Cabiri became obsessed with the origin/creation of the obyriths after delving into the then unknown depths of the Abyss. Whatever he found (connect the dots...) led him to seek out the baernaloths, and in turn led to their imprisoning him in the Wells (either directly by their hand or by proxy through the yugoloths isn't known). Dragon magazine 353 briefly mentions a deep ethereal demiplane known as the Clockwork Gap, and its baernaloth creator, Harishek ap Thulkesh 'The Blind Clockmaker'. I wrote the article in question, and managed to squeeze him. He and his demiplane are fully detailed in one of my stories, and he shows up rather prominantly in some other pieces of mine. Granted only the stuff printed in Dragon is canonical, but feel free to use the details. And then I mention another baernaloth known as The Dreamer in a story of mine that shows up in an issue of Knowledge Arcana (#5 I think). She might show up elsewhere, but I don't know if that'll happen yet. In any event, I don't have a clue about the status of material that showed up there with regards to the planar canon.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-21-07, 05:54 PM	Shemeska- Have you ever hypothesized how the Baern, 'loths, and the whole Blood War thing has played out in the Great Tree? Since it was a recon I am under the impression that Toril has always been in the Great Tree and was never part of the Wheel Cosmology, so how would have things played out here? While I'm not inclined to use the Tree, in one piece of mine I've touched upon the issue of how to reconcile the presence of tons upon tons of material on the planes that sort of founder on the rocks in the Tree without their original context. Why the carbon copies of some planes, others that are pastiche of the true selves from the Wheel, etc. “They think themselves safe…” The statement was said with derisive amusement by one of the small group of figures who sat silently upon a hillside of obsidian and ash in the Barrens of Doom and Despair. They had arrived out of nothingness and their presence was unknown to any of the true deities that called home to the plane, even Bane, the god of tyranny, whose divine realm they overlooked with cold, dead, serpent-like eyes devoid of pity. “Children afraid of the dark, pulling their bed sheets above their heads to hide from the shadows and the beasts of their imagination.” Another of the figures said with a sneer upon colorless lips, bleached of health and ravaged by age and disease. “Not every beast is imaginary, and much to their misery, neither are we.” The third of the group said with some grim sense of pride. It hunched upon a rock and tilted its head to gaze at what they had found when Toril had simply vanished. Below them, marching across the plane were groups of wriggling larvae, flopping about on the barren expanse like so many slowly suffocating fish, all of them deprived of water. The first of the Gloom Fathers turned to regard the others, naked just as they were, a mockery of all that was good and clean: spiritual perversion made flesh. “Let them think that they’ve succeeded. Let them feel confident in their attempts to remove themselves from the reach of powers and beings that existed before they first had the temerity to call themselves divine. Let them have their taste of pride, that most bitter of sins.” The second looked over the miles in an instant, piercing the walls of the fortress of Bane and regarding the face of the Faerunian god of harsh and brutal law. The deity never noticed. Watching that look of smug confidence upon the face of the god, the Baern turned to its brethren and addressed them. “This presents us with an opportunity. A new set of variables, a new chance to begin the great experiment and examine the progress from an earlier stage and without our presence being known.” The third looked up, “Reproduce the fiends of the former creation here in this place, this shallow pool upon the rocky shore of a much vaster ocean.” The first replied, “Sooner or later the tide will come rushing in to swallow it…” And so they took action, catching many of the wriggling larvae in their hands and creating an example each of the three fiends: Tanar’ri, Baatezu, and Yugoloth. This time they were different, though to anyone not of the proper appreciation for their art, for those exquisite perversions, they would have simply comprehended the brushstrokes of geniuses, unaltered from the previous masterworks, even if the second attempt was intentionally altered and weaker. They worked their influence subtly, driving the bitter seeds of their influence into the fertile soil that had been forged in the idle actions of Toril’s overgod and given to his wards to play with, safely isolated in their playground and sheltered from the things of their nightmares. But, as with all such thing, evil seeps through. Baator was born anew, nearly a carbon copy of the true plane on the other side of the invisible barrier of the two cosmoses, and at the same time the Abyss festered and erupted into being. Where the two merged and clashed, the Blood Rift was extruded from the passage of its own analogue of the Styx, forming a dim reflection of Gehenna and the Waste. The Baern saw what they had created and they watched as the deities of Toril, Ao’s foundling children stood and were uncertain as to what it meant. Lathander demanded that it be scoured from existence. Set declared it a vile trick of his former pantheon that should be cast away, even as he wriggled his influence among the fiends that emerged from the larvae. Shar howled in rage as something more for her to destroy in the end of all things presented itself, and Selune was troubled by it all. Oghma glanced out over those planes and was concerned, for they had not been in their plans to create themselves a haven for themselves and their worshippers. But perhaps it was simply a natural occurrence, something that they would have to account for. Surely, that was all it was. Surely nothing had followed them… And so it progressed, just as before, and the Gloom Fathers watched as a new Blood War erupted, only this time they did not actively guide their children, nor did they consider them favored. All of it was an idle experiment and eventually they might sterilize it and begin again, but not before punishing the ignorant babes, the so-called gods, who had dared to create what they did not understand and who had thought themselves free of things beyond their ken. The first smiled as he gazed out over the blasted landscape of the Blood Rift and listened to the screams, a pale visage of what would come in time when they danced upon the bodies of the unlamented dead within the silvery void of the Astral. And at that moment, the gods of Toril felt a shadow pass over their graves, a familiar one, and then it was gone like smoke on the wind. “Did you miss us?…” A sequel to that story should be finished tonight (hopefully, because I have to go into work at 2am).
Shemeska the Marauder 06-21-07, 05:57 PM	It's also worth mentioning that if you're going to use anything of mine as inspiration for using a baern in a campaign, etc, most of the ones I've written about are members of The Demented. Other baernaloths might be rather different, because they lack the particular form of madness that infects the Demented. Some of the baernaloths who live in seclusion in the Waste, or those who departed the Wheel entirely (perhaps abandoning it and their creations) will be rather different. And of course there's Apomps the Demodand god to consider as another point of reference as well.
Meldread 06-21-07, 06:33 PM	Thanks Shemeska. I think I've read most of your stuff relating to the 'loths and such, including the short story you posted on their creation in the Great Tree. All good stuff by the way, and I love it. Still though I have trouble trying to make it all jive well with the Great Tree. I'm not a huge fan of the Tree, but I think instead of trying to chop it down I might want to use it as a way to recon the planes of the setting. That way everything will hopefully 'connect' better and seem more consistent. I can use it as an opportunity to be creative and throw my own 'flare' / 'spin' into the game. I want the Baernaloth's to play a major role in it. Anyway, thanks for your responses. They've been helpful.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-20-07, 10:11 AM	The first smiled as he gazed out over the blasted landscape of the Blood Rift and listened to the screams, a pale visage of what would come in time when they danced upon the bodies of the unlamented dead within the silvery void of the Astral. And at that moment, the gods of Toril felt a shadow pass over their graves, a familiar one, and then it was gone like smoke on the wind. “Did you miss us? ” A sequel to that story should be finished tonight (hopefully, because I have to go into work at 2am). Its been finished for some time now, but been in the limbo of Planewalker.com's release system. If anyone wanted to read it, it was released this morning. Evil Still Seeps Through (http://www.planewalker.com/entry.php?intEntryID=29528)