Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Iakhovas 10-29-07, 11:19 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071029 Interesting.
18DELTA 10-29-07, 11:40 PM	-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The family of gods for 4th Edition is a mix of old and new. You'll see familiar faces like Corellon, Moradin, and Pelor, and some new faces as well, like Zehir, Torog, and Bane. Yes, Bane. Before I explain what the Forgotten Realms' god of tyranny and war is doing rubbing shoulders with Pelor, let me say a bit about our thinking when we created a pantheon in the first place. There was a time when the team working on "the world" of D&D thought we could get away with creating general rules useful to clerics regardless of which pantheon existed in the campaign, and then presenting a variety of fictional and historical pantheons for DMs to adopt or adapt as they saw fit. I believe it was Stacy Longstreet, the senior D&D art director, who pointed out that this solution would leave us in a bit of a bind. When we wanted to put a temple in an adventure, what god would it be dedicated to? We could make Generic Evil Temples™, but that would sap a lot of the flavor out of our adventures, and rob us of specific plot hooks and story lines based on the portfolios and histories of these gods. When we wanted to illustrate a cleric in one of our books, what holy symbol would the cleric hold? Again, we could rely on a stable of generic symbols (maybe the Zapf Dingbat font?), but at the cost of a lot of flavor. We ended up creating a new pantheon. At first, we used some of the gods from 3rd Edition as placeholder names -- we thought we'd come up with new names for [Pelor] the sun god and [Moradin] the god of the forge. Ultimately we decided that using some familiar faces was preferable to giving our players a whole new set of names to learn. Besides, if a god looks like an elf and took out the orc-god's eye like a certain well-known elf god, why not call him Corellon? Corellon: The elf god is a good example of a god who kept his well-earned place in the D&D pantheon. But "the elf god" shouldn't be taken to literally. Sure, he's often depicted as an elf or an eladrin, and many eladrin in particular revere him. But he's equally popular among human wizards, and even dwarves who practice the finer arts are prone to offering him prayers. One of our goals with the new pantheon was to loosen the tight associations between gods and races that has in the past led to the creation of whole pantheons full of elf, dwarf, orc, and goblin deities. Corellon is still associated with elfy things like arcane magic and the Feywild, and he still hates Lolth and the drow. But his appeal is a little broader now. Bahamut: Here's another example of a familiar, draconic face showing up in a somewhat new light. Maybe it was the Platinum Knight prestige class in Draconomicon that did it, but something convinced me a long time ago that Bahamut was a much cooler god of paladins than Heironeous ever was. Like Corellon, Bahamut's not just for dragons any more. He's the god of justice, protection, and honor, and many paladins of all races worship him. Many metallic dragons revere him as well, thinking of him as the first of their kind. Some legends about Bahamut describe him as literally a shining platinum dragon, while others describe him as a more anthropomorphic deity, who's called the Platinum Dragon as a title of respect. Exhorting his followers to protect the weak, liberate the oppressed, and defend just order, Bahamut stands as the exemplar of the paladin's ideal. Bane: Here's another god whose placeholder name just stuck, despite some reservations. We wanted an evil war god in the pantheon, and without Heironeous, Hextor didn't make a lot of sense. We wanted the kind of heavily militaristic god whose temples you might find among non-evil societies who have spent long years at war, as well as among hobgoblins. We wanted a god who embodied just the sort of tyrannical dictatorship that Bane stands for in the Forgotten Realms. We started calling him Bane as a placeholder. He went through a number of different, unsatisfying names. Finally, someone said we should just call him Bane. So Bane he remained. Like chocolate and peanut butter, we think Bane and Bahamut are two great tastes that taste great together. Does that mean you have to use them in your 4th Edition game? Of course not. But we think that, when you see these gods in action in our core books and adventures, you'll agree that they belong in their new places of honor in the pantheon of the D&D game. BOLD ADDED! Interesting! P.S. Maybe Corellen is the Human God of Wizards? P.S.S. Maybe their will be no God of Magic, just a God of Wizards? Interesting.
AffableDoomwalker 10-29-07, 11:57 PM	I kinda dig it.
Meldread 10-30-07, 12:05 AM	Bane as a god of war? Yes, please.
johnkretzer 10-30-07, 12:06 AM	Well it looks like one pantheon to rule them all.
18DELTA 10-30-07, 12:26 AM	Maybe Pelor and Lathander are one and the same in 4E?
goldomark 10-30-07, 03:15 AM	Well it looks like one pantheon to rule them all. Is that it? The same gods for FR, Eberron, Greyhawk and points-of-light-world?
Zanan 10-30-07, 06:25 AM	As long as Lolth and her kin is here and there and everywhere, I don't mind if FR deities become more Core'y. Obviously, Loviatar, Auril, Mask and the like should be around too. :cool:
Suin Bahhar 10-30-07, 09:46 AM	Bahamut replaced Helm :(
Fabius Maximus 10-30-07, 10:06 AM	I don't think that the core pantheon will resemble the FR pantheon.
MerrikCale 10-30-07, 10:36 AM	I don't think that the core pantheon will resemble the FR pantheon. I agree. I'm sure FR will have its own pantheon with its own flavor.
Suin Bahhar 10-30-07, 10:41 AM	Zehir? Torog? New gods? They could be the new Mystra and Helm respectively.
Stigger 10-30-07, 10:46 AM	Ugh... I can't stand homogeny on principle... this is leaving a bad feeling in my brain.
Suin Bahhar 10-30-07, 10:59 AM	I agree. If Living FR means core = canon FR we'll have to say hello to these new muppets. I hope I'm erring here and the FR pantheon remains different. They can't really do this can they? Are this the gods in the PHB? Then I'll take my words back.
Derren S. 10-30-07, 12:17 PM	I don't know if the new gods will be added to FR too, after all there is already an existing deity for nearly anything. I think those new gods will only be used in Core and FR will replace them with already established deities. But I do think that Bane will become a new war god so that he is the same in Core and FR. Likewise with the beginning of teh Dragonfall War I can see Bahamut also becoming more active in the realms. And I think its also possible that after the spellplauque and the death of Mystra many spellcasters in the realms will turn towards Corellon for magical guidiance, especially when he somehow manages to protect elves from the plague in some extend. For this this to really work out Azuth (Thats the name of Mystras aid, correct?) also has to die. Considering that WotC wants to shrink the FR pantheon to 30 deities I don't see how they could not abolish racial pantheons, maybe keeping single deities which are especially worshiped by a certain race (Lolth).
Hawkfeather 10-30-07, 03:31 PM	What about Tempus??:confused:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-30-07, 03:38 PM	I agree. I'm sure FR will have its own pantheon with its own flavor. I'm not so sure about that. And I don't like this homogeny either.
18DELTA 10-30-07, 03:43 PM	I'm not so sure about that. And I don't like this homogeny either. Thats the evil of the "LIVING REALMS" for ya! A simplified dumbed down, generic set of Gods, for 4E!:rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 10-30-07, 05:25 PM	One RULES to rule them all, and in the Darkness bind them... Been saying they were gonna merge the Pantheons the minute I heard that there would be one set of rules in 4e - no difference between 'core' and 'FR' anymore. Maybe Pelor and Lathander are one and the same in 4E?Man, did I call this. Not only did I say that (I think over at CK) when I first saw that pic in the GHotR, and I pretty much said the same thing in the GHotR art thread - Most are pretty good matches, though. and if if they do merge FR with GH, then the Priest of Pelander could just be a glimpse of that 'alternate timeline' we may be getting. ;)I HATE being right all the time. :P One universal Pantheon for D&D - how can you guys think anything else if Bane is being lumped in with Pelor? :confused: GH already HAD Hextor, so why would THEY be getting Bane? In an earlier designer column, they mentioned Corellon alongside other GH gods as well (at least one, IIRC). That was just a subtle hint, because Corellon is multi-spheric, but this new piece just wreaks of it. Remember, they said they were working on FR FIRST, so just about anything we see between now and next AUG will most likely be in FR. Maybe it will look like THIS. (http://www.geonomicon.com/portal/images/tabloid-FRGHplanet.gif) I expect people to disagree with me, like usual, so I will answer them ahead of time - let's just wait until the FRCG comes out next year before we jump down each others throats. Right now, I'm just stating possible scenarios and am entitled to my opinions. :cool: BTW - I wonder if that's a pic of a Paladin of Corellon; if it is, GothicDan is going to have a cow. :dancin:
Stigger 10-30-07, 06:00 PM	*snickers* Alas, I'm afraid I can see that your predictions are going to be coming to pass in some manner. More and more going back to the storyteller system gets really appealing...
GothicDan 10-30-07, 09:07 PM	No cows here. Paladins in 4E aren't even LG any more, I don't think, and they don't seem to have any Judeo-Christian inspiration - so it's more suitable. However, I'm NOT happy about the whole hegemony thing going on, either.
MerrikCale 10-30-07, 09:08 PM	I'm not so sure about that. And I don't like this homogeny either. could they really be that stupid? destroy one of the the things that make FR unique
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-30-07, 09:11 PM	could they really be that stupid? destroy one of the the things that make FR unique :bored: Should I honestly say what I think the answer to your question is?
johnkretzer 10-30-07, 10:08 PM	I don't know if the new gods will be added to FR too, after all there is already an existing deity for nearly anything. I think those new gods will only be used in Core and FR will replace them with already established deities. According to Mr. Baker the FR will be getting new gods.
Dark Wizard 10-30-07, 11:49 PM	I'm greatly amused by this, not surprised or even against this. It seems like the cosmology reinterpretation. Whatever happens in the core could be reasonably and even easily adapted to FR specifics. There could be positives to this, a bit of the FR divine "maelstrom" just sneak into the core. FR just tainted the core, heh. It seems like FR is well represented in core, Bane plus Corellon and Bahamut (FR being the setting where both of these seemed to get the most face time in the form closest to what the core has). I'm not at all against Corellon picking up a bit of the magical slack after Mystra's death (you know what's as bad as a NG goddess of magic, a CG god of magic and elves who's been around a billion times longer :D ). Bane just went multi-spheric (how's that for a comeback? :devil:) and I like Bahamut (a decent replacement for Helm, plus he's so shiny). I find it humorous that James Wyatt thought Bahamut made a cooler deity than Heironeous, and Bane was chosen over Hextor. Notice how they preserved the trend of the two god dynamic with the same first letter of their names. The Greyhawk fans are probably rolling their eyes right now (one more reason to dislike WotC and hate FR). Interestingly, I think Bane was loosely based on a Babylonian god (Druaga?) and Bahamut has taken Marduk's name in the Realms. It seems they might start picking more fights with each other. In the Realms Bane could be a god of war but not the god of war, just like Tyr has the war domain, but not the fundamental portfolio (though he does make war against evil I guess). It's kind of counter to the whole reducing of the pantheon overlap thing, but you can never have enough war representation in a fantasy setting. I wonder what the dynamic will be between Bane, Tyr, Torm and Bahamut. Bahamut not intrudes on several of Tyr and Torm's divine territory. Torm even has the whole good dragon ally thing going. Could be interesting.
MarkusTay63 10-31-07, 12:07 AM	I always pegged Bane as Hiisi from the Finnish Pantheon. I know Ed had a thing for that Pantheon, and most of his gods were adaptions from the 1e DD. He just looks more the part the Druaga - I own the Bane mini and he just reminds me so much of the pic in the 1e DD. Anyway, I very familiar with GH, so if they merge the two, I should have a leg-up on most of you lore-wise. :D
Meldread 10-31-07, 01:13 AM	I really wouldn't have much of a problem with Grayhawk merging with FR. Just look at all the other things that have been tossed in over the years. Maztica. Kara-Tur. Zakhara. Just to name three. You can shoehorn almost anything into the FR with only minor modifications and have it fit reasonably enough. I kinda hope they do merge Grayhawk into FR. It gives more lore and more places to explore. It would also give me the ability to add in all sorts of interesting deities rather easily in 4E without seeming out of place. "Yeah, this god came over to Faerun from <insert strange land across the sea>." Plus, yes I want Tharizdun, Pelor and Pholtus. Also, I hope Ao dies and this allows gods of greater than demigod rank to hold the same portfolio.
Old Sage 10-31-07, 02:13 AM	Ao cannot die. Or rather, he cannot die in any way that can be easily perceived by mortals... or even the other gods for that matter. Ao, simply... is.
Meldread 10-31-07, 02:27 AM	The destruction of the Torillion Cosmology can cause such a backlash throughout the cosmos, that even the Great Wheel itself is shattered, releasing Tharizdun from his prison. In order to rebind him, Ao and other powerful Overgods sacrifice themselves. Ta-da. Ao dies. :P
SgtAnjay 10-31-07, 10:27 AM	this allows gods of greater than demigod rank to hold the same portfolio.There already can be gods of greater than demigod rank holding the same portfolio.....they just have to be in different pantheons.
Alrunic Silverfyre 10-31-07, 10:35 AM	~Looks down at the beautiful FR carpet~ Ewww, I think someone stepped in some Greyhawk and tracked it onto the carpet! Wipe your feet, Mr. Baker! Damn kids and their "blender" ideas for creating a pantheon. Seriously, did they just take all of the gods from all the settings, put them on pieces of paper, throw them all into the air, and those that they caught got to stay? Lame.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-31-07, 11:23 AM	I find it humorous that James Wyatt thought Bahamut made a cooler deity than Heironeous, and Bane was chosen over Hextor. I was annoyed by the "cool" comment--once again, "cool" seems like the only adjective WotC employees know, and Mr. Wyatt didn't even explain why Bahamut is so much "cool" than Heironeous. I like the Greyhawk setting, and I thought real Heironeous (not the remade "core" version) was an interesting god (different from your typical paladin-type god), with a good history.
Valgard 10-31-07, 12:13 PM	This is resulting more scandalous than I thought. I don't think they are merging the pantheons in one. That would kill absolutely everything in all worlds. I hope that the Spellplague saga in the Forgotten Realms will be resolved as in the Time of Troubles, not particularly supporter of it (probably the opposite) but I think that if the Realms change as they did in that time, it's not as bad as it could be. About the article, some personal opinions: The designers "see themselves forced to" put deities in the core PHB. Why? Because the drawings of the clerics, then, wouldn't be cool (I'm thinking in what Rinonalyrna Fathomlin said before about this cool word). What stupid argument is that? A player's handbook is just that, a handbook to show players how the system is played. If you then publish adventures, then you can put them in the world you like and with the deities you want. But if this is inevitable, try to show examples to DMs and players to use them as models for customed gods in home-made campaigns. Corellon is like before but it's not a god of elves (and eladrins). Well, that's a good point, and I agree in making deities non-related to race. But I don't agree with this: why does he have to be called Corellon? If you say he's Corellon, he will be the god of elves no matter what efforts you spend in remarking he is not explicitly tied to elves anymore. Think in the fans, please. Bahamut in core? I like it. If I cannot avoid to see deities in the PHB, at least, make the pantheon the more varied you can, and Bahamut is a great (not Greater) multi-spheric god tied to an "usually non-player character race", so I think it's a good input. And Bane? As someone posted before... I didn't know Bane was a war god. If you think that hatred, tyranny, and fear (and lawfulness) is tied to war, then yes, but I do not. At least, the example of Bane in the new pantheon likes me in the sense that the "inevitable" pantheon in the PHB has to be varied, and a deity of every possible campaign setting (including the Forgotten Realms) is a great idea. Just my :twocents: in the matter.
Alrunic Silverfyre 10-31-07, 12:25 PM	Yeah, the "cool" comment is highly subjective and is based on just one man's opinion about a deity. And so we stand back and watch as the fate of our beloved FR pantheon is left to the devices of game designers who deem what is "cool" and what is not. Fan boy favoritism at its finest. ...Nah, I'm not bitter. Just hopin' to what's left of the gods that 4th edition FR is worth lookin' at. Core pantheon aside, I really, really hope they don't drop the ball and go with just 30 deities. If that's the case, I'm locking myself into my bunker with my 3.5 books, my gaming group, and a hell of a lot of Mountain Dew and never coming out again.
Alediran 10-31-07, 01:54 PM	Yeah, the "cool" comment is highly subjective and is based on just one man's opinion about a deity. And so we stand back and watch as the fate of our beloved FR pantheon is left to the devices of game designers who deem what is "cool" and what is not. Fan boy favoritism at its finest. ...Nah, I'm not bitter. Just hopin' to what's left of the gods that 4th edition FR is worth lookin' at. Core pantheon aside, I really, really hope they don't drop the ball and go with just 30 deities. If that's the case, I'm locking myself into my bunker with my 3.5 books, my gaming group, and a hell of a lot of Mountain Dew and never coming out again. We are going to need a huge bunker, bigger than Area 51.
Alrunic Silverfyre 10-31-07, 02:33 PM	We are going to need a huge bunker, bigger than Area 51. I hear Area 3.5 is nice this time of year...plenty of space. :D
GreenKnight 11-01-07, 12:22 AM	Geeze, 'overreaction' seems to be the watchword around here, huh? Just because Bane is in the core pantheon, it doesn't mean that the core pantheon will be replacing the Forgotten Realms pantheon. It just means that Bane exists in OTHER pantheons outside of Faerun, including the Points of Light setting. Why is that so hard to comprehend? For Gods sake, how many interloper deities are in the Faerunian Pantheon? Tyr is the biggest example of that. Much like Bane in the core pantheon, he's a part of at least one other pantheon, the Asgardian Pantheon. Yet is anyone concerned that his presence will result in Thor, Odin, and Loki showing up? Oghma and Silvanus are two other examples. They exist in other pantheons, yet they're not bringing all their friends into the Faerunian Pantheon. So why is everyone freaking out just because it turns out that Bane holds a membership in at least one other pantheon aside from the Faerunian Pantheon, when several other gods in the Faerunian Pantheon are also members of pantheons from other worlds? Bear in mind, folks, that this isn't even the first time that Bane has been shown as a god in a world outside of Toril. He's also worshipped as a god in Ravenloft, along with Lathander. His presence, and Lathander's, doesn't mean that Ezra, Belenus, or Hala are suddenly gonna appear on Faerun, though.
johnkretzer 11-01-07, 01:15 AM	Interestingly, I think Bane was loosely based on a Babylonian god (Druaga?) and Bahamut has taken Marduk's name in the Realms. Isn't Bahamut Summerian?( Or whatever pantheon Tiamt is from?) I mean the conflict between the two is a reflection of the myth. So where does this leave Tiamat? Also I didn't like the core pantheon in core in 3.x. I don't like it now, but atleast the 3.x pantheon did two things that this won't be. 1)It was nice that 3.x gave support to Greyhawk. 2) It didn't leave their finger prints on the Realms.
Alrunic Silverfyre 11-01-07, 08:49 AM	Tiamat is from Babylonian mythology while Bahamut is actually an Arabic deity.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-01-07, 10:31 AM	Just because Bane is in the core pantheon, it doesn't mean that the core pantheon will be replacing the Forgotten Realms pantheon. For my part, I never said that was the case, I only said that it is possible (and I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be true).
SteelGeneral 11-01-07, 10:45 AM	Ao, simply... is. If that's true then the opposite should also apply given the right circumstance... Ao, simply... isn't.
Alrunic Silverfyre 11-01-07, 12:01 PM	For my part, I never said that was the case, I only said that it is possible (and I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be true). Wisely stated and heavily agreed with. Back to the "cool" argument, I'm thinking that soon we will see "King Baker" as the chief deity with the portfolios of "Awesome!", "Sweet!", "I pwnd joo!", and "My Realms, Not Urs!" Heh.
DMD 11-01-07, 02:16 PM	From what I have seen so far of 4E, it looks like it is not being designed to be marketed to any of "us". What I mean by "us" is those people who have played D&D/FR in 1E, 2E and 3.0/3.5 editions. They are looking to open up the game (they hope) to a wider younger audience more computer/internet dependent audience. If we come along so be it. They have pretty much sold "us" everything we are going to buy. I understand why they are doing it. I also understand why fans of official canon are upset. Personally, I am not coming along for the ride this time around. So as far as a new pantheon goes, I think if you are going to try out the new edition you need to be open minded, if not, then there is plenty of material out there for you plus anythng you can imagine to continue to work with.
MerrikCale 11-03-07, 10:41 AM	They have pretty much sold "us" everything we are going to buy. That is simply not true. The FR fan would continue to buy quality and even so-so material.
MarkusTay63 11-03-07, 10:52 AM	And since I've been informed that the maps in the 2e 'God' books are irrelevent, that means AO's entire ruling is worthless. Take the Scaleykind Pantheon - many of them hold the same portfolios as the Faerunian gods, yet they can be worshipped anywhere, including deep with areas supposedly controled by the Faerunian Pantheon. The Shou Expatriates in the Unapproachable East still worship the Celestial Bureaucracy, yet many of those deities also share portfolios. AO's ruling is completely meaningless when you think about it. If Bane wants War, he just has to 'divorce' himself from his current Pantheon and join some other, or even create one from scratch (which there are NO rules against) with himself as it's head. After all, if Hoar can simply change pantheons at will, that means anyone can.
Suin Bahhar 11-03-07, 10:58 AM	The good news is that conversion of core products like adventures will be minimal. The promiss of more detailed clergy and cathedral descriptions has me intrigued the most. I personally have no problems fitting "bland" temples from other worlds in the realms because FR always has at least one equivalent relevant god to use as a replacement. Symbolism and dogmas of FR's realms have always oozed flavor so Bane extending its reach beyond the crytalsphere of Toril is a compliment to Ed's creations.
ripvanwormer 11-03-07, 11:51 AM	Druaga is another name for Ahriman, the god of evil in the Zoroastrian faith. Bane is very loosely based on the 1e Deities & Demigods interpretation of Druaga, which is itself only loosely connected to its mythological origins. They've diverged even further as Bane has grown more defined (originally, Bane didn't have any particular appearance, being very mysterious in Ed Greenwood's campaign). Tiamat is the Babylonian personification of salt water, who spawned dragons, mad dogs, and scorpion-men to war against her children, the other Babylonian deities. Bahamut is a titanic fish that holds up the world in Arabic legend. His name is also a cognate of Behemoth, a monster like an enormous bull mentioned in the Bible. The D&D characters the Platinum Dragon and Chromatic Dragon existed before they were given the names Bahamut and Tiamat, however. The names were added later, so the characters can't really be said to have derived from those mythologies.
Dark Wizard 11-04-07, 01:00 AM	I was annoyed by the "cool" comment--once again, "cool" seems like the only adjective WotC employees know, and Mr. Wyatt didn't even explain why Bahamut is so much "cool" than Heironeous. I like the Greyhawk setting, and I thought real Heironeous (not the remade "core" version) was an interesting god (different from your typical paladin-type god), with a good history. Indeed, as little appeal as the Greyhawk pantheon holds for me, I feel Heironious and Hextor are two of the most interesting gods of that setting. Though I do understand that the article had word limits and the explanation had to be skipped, not that everyone would ever be completely satisfied with the reason even if it made the most sense. Hopefully we will not get a half-dozen (often similar) PrCs and similar options for the core Bane like they over-used Pelor and his clergy for mechanics ideas in 3e Core books.
Neutronium_Dragon 11-04-07, 09:36 AM	The core pantheon is for the PoL setting, and by the looks of it they're just pulling deities from all sources based on whichever one for a given role has the most traction with the player base. Essentially they're just iconic deities of each type. That doesn't mean it'll be applied to specific campaign settings. It *can't* be applied to Eberron without utterly destroying that setting's integrity, and while it might not cause as much damage, it still wouldn't make much sense to do it to the Forgotten Realms either.
DMD 11-05-07, 06:22 AM	MerrikCale That is simply not true. The FR fan would continue to buy quality and even so-so material. ________________________________________ _________________________ Fair enough, I will admit I probably would have kept buying FR products. As far as the general products go what else was there really to release? (We already have 2 players guides for each class type.) That is where the bulk of the money comes from NOT from FR or Eberron. I bet most people who play D&D do not use the pre-generated worlds offered. They may pick up some products to incorporate into their games but there is no guarantee thay will do that. In fact I know of at least 3 game groups that use homebrew worlds and 2 of them still use 2Ed.
AskaniPsion 11-05-07, 06:39 PM	They better not kill Lolth!!! :mad:
Charles Phipps 11-06-07, 08:45 PM	They already killed Lolth. She died in the Queen of the Demonweb Pits. :-)
AskaniPsion 11-06-07, 11:58 PM	They already killed Lolth. She died in the Queen of the Demonweb Pits. :-) Bah the ending in that book was so bad...a Goddess that died by falling in a pit....next they will be killing Tiamat with a beer bottle or Asmodeus with a screwdriver.
Charles Phipps 11-07-07, 12:30 AM	Only the Justicar could! ;-)
AskaniPsion 11-07-07, 06:57 AM	Only the Justicar could! ;-) Yeah give him a pen quill to attack with and he could probably take down Ao too ;)