Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paitlan 07-02-07, 03:02 AM	After playing a long time in the Greyhawk universe our group felt it was time to return to faerūn. Because of that I brought Fr. Campaign and going through it I find out that bane is once again a living god, and as fan of bane I like to know How did this happen ?, can anyone point me to information about this; novels, accessories or other publication.
Old Sage 07-02-07, 04:17 AM	There isn't much that's been officially said about Bane's return. And it's been asked for repeatedly. WotC keeps telling Ed, and others, no. The FRCS and Faiths & Pantheons references are the only sources we have on this. They gave us small notes saying that on this one particular night (Midwinter night of 1372 DR), all worshippers of Iyachtu Xvim had a dream where they saw him split apart and Bane emerge from within. So Bane came back, at the cost of one who was in my opinion a better evil deity.
Paitlan 07-02-07, 04:50 AM	Thank you for the information. I also liked Xvim. I would rather have seen that bane has emerge from within Cyric. That could also have created some interesting feuds between bane and Xvim :)
XHereticX 07-02-07, 08:06 AM	Thank you for the information. I also liked Xvim. I would rather have seen that bane has emerge from within Cyric. That could also have created some interesting feuds between bane and Xvim :) Xvim was just a sentient cocoon that Bane would use for his eventual return, just like the Bhaalspawn were for Bhaal. Get the FRCS 3rd edition, it will explain everything.
Pesky 07-02-07, 10:41 AM	I also liked Xvim. I would rather have seen that bane has emerge from within Cyric. Oy! Lay of Cyric! He's far too cool for that :D
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 01:08 PM	There isn't much that's been officially said about Bane's return. And it's been asked for repeatedly. WotC keeps telling Ed, and others, no. -I wonder why...?
Psionycx 07-02-07, 01:53 PM	Cyric seemed to have devolved into some kind of a running joke so I guess there was a need to bring some other heavy-hitter evil gods back up to the plate. Cyric's role in opposition to Mystra has largely been taken over by Shar. Bane seems to be back to save the Zeeks from doom as chaotic comic relief under Cyric's erratic direction. How he became so pointless so fast is mind-numbing.
XHereticX 07-02-07, 02:20 PM	Cyric seemed to have devolved into some kind of a running joke so I guess there was a need to bring some other heavy-hitter evil gods back up to the plate. Cyric's role in opposition to Mystra has largely been taken over by Shar. Bane seems to be back to save the Zeeks from doom as chaotic comic relief under Cyric's erratic direction. How he became so pointless so fast is mind-numbing. No, I actually like Cyric. He is a nice alternative to the typical dark-lord type evil deity that plots and plots and forebodes doom. He is pure madness, just a raving lunatic who wants to mess everything up, with no clear goals. Its been a while since I have seen one of those.
Red_Wizard 07-03-07, 09:35 AM	Cyric was a lot better IMO before he read his Cyrinishad, and summarily lost two of his portfolios to others. Even as a mortal I found him more interesting than most people portray him now. Which while not discrediting his current incarnation, doesn't speak highly for how he is portrayed, when a majority consensus dislike him. Hopefully with time he'll return to what he was.
Psionycx 07-03-07, 11:45 AM	In fairness, Midnight has become a bit of a charicature too. Midnight and Cyric were great characters during the Avatar Trilogy but subsequent handling of them as gods has not been good. It's almost as if too many writers just want Midnight to be the old Mystra, and even more just flat out dislike Cyric and write him as an idiot. I suppose he provides an option at the Chaotic Evil end of the spectrum for those disinclined towards Bane's lawfulness or Shar's nihilism. But I think he seems more clueless as a god than he was as a mortal (and Mystra's not much better).
customdrapery 07-03-07, 11:55 AM	I've always kind of thought Cyric was a bumbling idiot, but recently I've grown to like having him around as an evil deity. I think he is supposed to be representative of true chaos and evil, but really he's just Bhaal with a worse name and way less cool. I've also been disappointed by Talos, who is supposed to be so evil and chaotic himself, what has he done besides help some mortals ascend?
Soltares 07-03-07, 12:04 PM	Even as a mortal I found him more interesting than most people portray him now. Which while not discrediting his current incarnation, doesn't speak highly for how he is portrayed, when a majority consensus dislike him. Hopefully with time he'll return to what he was. I thought Cyric was the most interesting and complex character in the first and second books of the Avatar Trilogy, but in book three he seemed to have some sort of personality transplant and turned really evil for no discernable reason. He was *far* nicer a person than Kelemvore in the first book. It always felt to me like the books were written by different authors. The personalities of the characters changed pretty noticeably between books. Of course, Cyric the god has just been an embarassment to evil gods everywhere...
Aegis_Chiron 07-03-07, 01:52 PM	It always felt to me like the books were written by different authors. The personalities of the characters changed pretty noticeably between books. Follow that feeling. Richard Awlinson was a psuedonym used by the various authors. I think that Scott Ciencin wrote Shadowdale and Tantras while Tryo Denning wrote Waterdeep. That would explain some of the discrepencies in the character portrayals. In terms of who is the better Evil god, Bane wins hands down. He had the courage to attack Ao himself by stealing the Tablets, throwing the whoole world into chaos for a few months. He was killed by Torm, his portfolio given to a bumbler, then used his own demonspawn offspring to ressurrect himself. I personally believe that Ao recognized that there were no gods awesome enough to replace Bane, so even though he tried to usurp Ao's power, Ao had to allow him to come back. To protect the balance, one can say...
Lord Karsus 07-03-07, 04:18 PM	-Scott Ciencin wrote Shadowdale and Tantras under the pseudonym of "Rich Awlinson". Troy Denning and Scott Ciencin both wrote Waterdeep, again under the pseudonym "Rich Awlinson". James Lowder wrote Prince of Lies, and Troy Denning wrote Crucible: Trial of Cyric the Mad.
Arbourean 07-03-07, 08:17 PM	Yeah, that's my biggest complaint with the Avatar Trilogy. Cyric completely changes for no discernible reason by the last book. I'll probably be dragged to the stockade for this, but I liked his portrayal in Crucible. He recognized that he was mad, and even though he was "cured" he still said Malik failed him. Cyric's stock went up in that book.
XHereticX 07-03-07, 08:37 PM	I've always kind of thought Cyric was a bumbling idiot, but recently I've grown to like having him around as an evil deity. I think he is supposed to be representative of true chaos and evil, but really he's just Bhaal with a worse name and way less cool. I've also been disappointed by Talos, who is supposed to be so evil and chaotic himself, what has he done besides help some mortals ascend? Cyric IS an idiot, and yes he is incompetent, that is what makes him so unique and fun. Kelemvor however, just needs to go.
Zevox 07-04-07, 02:57 AM	I also liked Xvim. I would rather have seen that bane has emerge from within Cyric. Oh man, this one gave me a good laugh. Thank you for that image. It wouldn't have made as much sense, but I would so have preferred it to go down that way. What possessed TSR to replace three far more interesting evil Deities with that madman is utterly beyond me. Zevox
Psionycx 07-04-07, 11:40 AM	At the time it seemed like the thought was that Mystra and Cyric would be the new focal points of the struggle between Good and Evil in Faerun. But as subsequent writers have used them, Mystra has proven to be of limited effectiveness as the premier purveyor of Good and Cyric has been an incompetent idiot who spreads Evil more by accident than by design.
trenskeep 07-05-07, 11:11 PM	when i read the avtar trilogy, i was like this is awesome two people who hate eachother are now gods. what a great idea for some awesome books. but after reading the next two, i was a bit disappointed. imo they dropped the ball. don't get me wrong i love cyric. just wish they did a better job. as for Bane being back, always liked the guy. my kind of evil god:devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:
Alleran 07-06-07, 01:34 AM	Mystra has proven to be of limited effectiveness as the premier purveyor of Good That's more because Ao wouldn't allow her to use her position to unfairly influence the course of events in a way that the other gods couldn't match (restriction of the Weave). She's still good in that she wants magic to be spread in a way that won't result in evil mages popping up all over the place, but that allows for a freedom of choice (her comments to El and the Simbul with regards to the Red Wizards in Elminster's Daughter).
Chloramantis 07-13-07, 11:11 AM	I've always kind of thought Cyric was a bumbling idiot, but recently I've grown to like having him around as an evil deity. I think he is supposed to be representative of true chaos and evil, but really he's just Bhaal with a worse name and way less cool. I've also been disappointed by Talos, who is supposed to be so evil and chaotic himself, what has he done besides help some mortals ascend? You're right! Talos should be the ****, but he doesn't really play out to his potential. On paper he is a bad ass, but in reality, what has he done?
Mirtek 07-13-07, 01:35 PM	Cyric IS an idiot, and yes he is incompetent, Well, Bane is an idiot too (just read his portrayal in the Pools of [...] book and in the Avatar Trilogy (were he's Myrkul's puppet without even noticing)). Bane has: -> for centuries tried to get a foothold on magic and failed time and again -> tried to steal war and failed -> stolen the tablets without knowing that they are completly worthless The only thing he tried as a deity that not resulted in failure was being reborn through Xvim. And even here I still doubt that it was Bane's brilliant plan (he was far to stupid in his divine career to mastermind something like this) but I suspect Xvim being stupid and collecting to much of his fathers old power too fast and thus accidently triggering Bane's return. Cyric has: -> slain a lesser goddess (and with this doing something that Bane failed at for centuries -> getting a taste of magic) -> lost two portfolios -> stole two portfolios -> humilated Mask twice -> broke the love between two GG -> nearly caused an pantheon war within the faerunian pantheon (even getting Torm and Tyr on his side) -> created an artifact that the other gods still fear) -> gone mad -> being cured of being mad If not for the opposition of two GGs and one LG, Cyric's plan for Zhentil Keep would have worked even with Cyric goind mad While Bane could do nothing but take the blows and go down, Cyric always rolled with the blows and punched back with force when his enemies were least expecting this, scoring quite a few hits for any hit he took himself.
customdrapery 07-13-07, 03:13 PM	Actually those are good points. Cyric has been pretty effective in some ways. I suppose that if we knew about some of Bane's early plots before the ToT we might be able to better compare their respective successes/failures. Overall I was pretty disappointed by the lose of Myrkul. Cyric could have effectively replaced Bane and Bhaal, but Kelemvor is just a worthless replacement for Myrkul. Even Jergal is better. I'm waiting for Jergal to take him out and take the portfolio again. Or for Myrkul to make a comeback. The Realms does not need a neutral god of the dead.
Faraer 07-13-07, 07:01 PM	Gods act through their priesthoods, almost never directly, despite their misguided portrayal in the Avatar novels. And, with respect to posts above about what Bane and Talos have 'done', the vast majority of those acts are unrecorded in the published lore.
Alleran 07-14-07, 01:27 AM	The Realms does not need a neutral god of the dead. And a god of the dead needs to be evil why, exactly? I actually prefer Kelemvor's view that death is simply a part of life - a natural ending.
Mirtek 07-14-07, 07:45 AM	And a god of the dead needs to be evil why, exactly? I actually prefer Kelemvor's view that death is simply a part of life - a natural ending. Me too. Despite being a Cyric-fan, I really like Kelemvor. It's IMO much better to have the clergy of the god of death as the hunters of the undeath and not as the ones animating the dead.
XHereticX 07-14-07, 09:35 AM	Actually those are good points. Cyric has been pretty effective in some ways. I suppose that if we knew about some of Bane's early plots before the ToT we might be able to better compare their respective successes/failures. Overall I was pretty disappointed by the lose of Myrkul. Cyric could have effectively replaced Bane and Bhaal, but Kelemvor is just a worthless replacement for Myrkul. Even Jergal is better. I'm waiting for Jergal to take him out and take the portfolio again. Or for Myrkul to make a comeback. The Realms does not need a neutral god of the dead. Yeah, that is what makes Cyric so darn fun. He causes absolute mayham through his idiocy and really dosen't know what he is doing but still makes the lives of people all over Toril living hell. That I think is exactly the kind of evil deity we need right now, instead of an archetypical deity that plots and gets no results, we have one that acts stupid and gets results:D Yeah, I want Myrkul back. I hate Kelemvor not because I don't like the idea of a non-evil death god (I love Jergal and Hades, who should be LN rather than NE if we go by mythology), but that he almost puts a Paladinlike look on death and bascically says,"Never fear and wonder about death, because some dumb shining knight in armor will guide you to the light."
Alleran 07-15-07, 09:59 AM	but that he almost puts a Paladinlike look on death and bascically says,"Never fear and wonder about death, because some dumb shining knight in armor will guide you to the light." So you don't like his methods, or the perspective he puts forward? And I still don't see why the god of death and the dead has to be evil. :confused:
captaincarot 07-15-07, 10:47 AM	And I still don't see why the god of death and the dead has to be evil. :confused: because if you don't have an evil ghod of death, they can't be dumb and stupid. they would have to go round doing their job properly and doling out justice. while treating the undead as the abominations that they truly are. rahter than a god of death which spends it's time encouraging people to cheat his portfolio by becoming undead.
customdrapery 07-17-07, 11:57 AM	I'm not saying that the god of death and the dead has to be evil, I just like Faerun better when there is an evil death god. Jergal and Myrkul were better gods than Kelemvor, who I think the writers felt badly for since he didn't become a god during the Avatar series. He never showed any interest in death or the dead, he was just sort of handed the portfolio. I much prefer an evil death god, where death is something to be feared unless you have a patron god who will come and claim your soul. It just works better for me.
Ulicus 07-17-07, 01:37 PM	A part of me is still convinced that “Bane” is Cyric, having slain Xvim, masquerading as the older deity so as to keep a stronger hold on his unwitting followers. So basically, you've got a Neutral Evil Cyric who is playing both the part of the Lawful Evil Bane and the Chaotic Evil 'Mad' Cyric. In my eyes, this is the "plan" that Cyric was referring to at the end of Crucible ;) It certainly goes towards redeeming his otherwise rather poor characterisations as a god, at least in my opinion, though his killing Xvim might not be considered believable.
Lady_Mhaor 07-18-07, 03:55 PM	[QUOTE=Mirtek;13060853] Cyric has: -> slain a lesser goddess (with the help of Mask) -> lost two portfolios (cuz hes stupid) -> stole two portfolios (got lucky) -> humilated Mask twice (Twice? say what? Mask was just to cunning for his own good is all >.>) -> broke the love between two GG (Bravo on that one) -> nearly caused an pantheon war within the faerunian pantheon (even getting Torm and Tyr on his side) -> created an artifact that the other gods still fear (what artifact is that?) -> gone mad (cuz hes dumb) -> being cured of being mad (Needed the help of a mortal) As you can clearely see Cyric has only had about. . .2 uses QUOTE]
Zevox 07-18-07, 09:55 PM	Cyric has: -> slain a lesser goddess As Lady_Mhoar said, with Mask's aid (both directly and indirectly even, since Godsbane was used to strike her down). -> lost two portfolios Four, actually. Death and the Dead to Kelemvor, Tyranny and Hatred (which he had obtained from Bane) to Xvim (who then lost them to Bane upon his return). -> stole two portfolios He stole Intrigue from Mask by pure luck and opportunism. Which other one was there? He took a couple from Leira by killing her, but I'd presume you'd have included those in the note about her. -> humilated Mask twice And those were when? His book managed to mess with Mask's mind, but he never even knew that until after Mask had a breakdown right in his face, and he cured himself shortly thereafter. Unless you count that and stealing one of his portfolios due to that as two humiliations (I sure wouldn't - the former was unintentional and completely unforeseeable by both Cyric and Mask, and the latter was pure opportunism, something anyone could have done given the position), this is untrue. -> broke the love between two GG Accidentally. He drove Adon mad in the hopes of claiming his soul after he killed himself - the fact that this drove a wedge between Mystra and Kelemvor was purely incidental and due to no planning or competence on Cyric's part. -> nearly caused an pantheon war within the faerunian pantheon (even getting Torm and Tyr on his side) Correct on the former, not on the latter. The idiot deluded himself into thinking he had them on his side, but its quite apparent from the few times he did actually speak with them that Tyr never supported him, and that Torm always considered him unworthy of his post, much less of support. -> created an artifact that the other gods still fear I wouldn't say they still fear it, considering he was forced to oath before the Council never to bring it to light again at his trial. But yes, he did create a powerful artifact, which is the only shred of competence hes ever shown (and that wouldn't be very impressive if the book didn't affect Gods, since any Deity can create artifacts). -> gone mad Not exactly a ringing endorsement for him, considering it was his own artifact that did it to him. -> being cured of being mad Through the actions of a mortal who is smarter than his mad God. And even then its not as if hes wholly sane now - I'd say Tyr hit the nail on the head when he said Cyric was mad even back in his mortal days, the Cyrinishad just amplified it (he was mad enough to invent the lies it contained to begin with, recall, and we know that he can even replace his own memories with lies simply through wishful thinking). Zevox
Vasyek 07-19-07, 12:21 AM	As Lady_Mhoar said, with Mask's aid (both directly and indirectly even, since Godsbane was used to strike her down). A greater god of murder doesn't need a special tool to nix a lesser goddess, Godsbane was incidental to her demise. As for Mask's indirect aid, there's no telling how vital that actually was to the event given how sparsely detailed it is. He stole Intrigue from Mask by pure luck and opportunism. Which other one was there? He took a couple from Leira by killing her, but I'd presume you'd have included those in the note about her. Pure luck? Not as such, unless you count Mask's mistakes as some kind of random happenstance rather than decisions (poorly) made. I suppose he was lucky insofar as anyone is to have to a foolish enemy, but the consequences leading to Cyric's acquisition of Intrigue were quite assured by the actions Mask took. Opportunism? Sure, in spite of a state of complete duress on both internal and external grounds. As for the portfolios, including the ones gained from Leira it's four for four. And those were when? His book managed to mess with Mask's mind, but he never even knew that until after Mask had a breakdown right in his face, and he cured himself shortly thereafter. The first humiliation is indeed Mask's reduction to abject pleading before Cyric after reading the tome. He didn't maneuver Mask into reading the book (indeed, it's arguable that even Cyric was caught by surprise at the true extent of the Cyrinishad's power) but that doesn't change the fact that Mask succumbed to it and debased himself so completely, let alone at such cost. No doubt Mask attempts to console himself in much the same way you would minimize the disgrace it poses to him, but the umbrage and frustration remain still. There is a reason for his hatred of Cyric, after all. Unless you count that and stealing one of his portfolios due to that as two humiliations (I sure wouldn't - the former was unintentional and completely unforeseeable by both Cyric and Mask, and the latter was pure opportunism, something anyone could have done given the position), this is untrue. The second time was Mask's impotent shrieking for the portfolio of Intrigue at the end of the trial, to say nothing of his maimed state due to witlessly capering into Mystra's trap. But that's more a matter of Mask humiliating himself than Cyric doing the job for him, I agree. Or maybe he's referring the various instances over the trial in which Cyric's wrath sent the weakened Mask cringing for shelter. I'd assume the former though. Accidentally. He drove Adon mad in the hopes of claiming his soul after he killed himself - the fact that this drove a wedge between Mystra and Kelemvor was purely incidental and due to no planning or competence on Cyric's part. No, he drove him mad first and foremost as a retributive action against Mystra and that was just one part of what led to the rift between her and Kelemvor. It began with the counter charges Cyric levelled, which led Kelemvor to seriously reconsider his own policies (much to Mystra's vexation), proceeded with the various object lessons affirming his newfound doubts as the trial progressed (which Cyric indeed had nothing to do with aside from predicting them in the broader sense), and concluded with the Adon incident. Adon's conversion was indeed a desired outcome, but more as icing on the cake than anything else. Correct on the former, not on the latter. The idiot deluded himself into thinking he had them on his side, but its quite apparent from the few times he did actually speak with them that Tyr never supported him, and that Torm always considered him unworthy of his post, much less of support. But Tyr did support him in action if not sentiment, by attempting to keep the other gods in line so the evidence could be read. Also in seeing the charges broadened to encompass Kelemvor and Mystra at Cyric's motion. Torm's disavowal of his fitness to claim greater godhood is perversely affirmation, given the helpless frustration and retreat in the scene in which he states it. I wouldn't say they still fear it, considering he was forced to oath before the Council never to bring it to light again at his trial. Their fear is thus diminished, not annulled. The same sort of uproar would commence if the prospect of the Cyrinishad's use were to reimerge, and it's not like an oath from Cyric is all that reassuring. The damnable thing of it is that they wouldn't even know if it had been recovered and put into use until its effects had become widespread and obvious since they can't even sense it themselves, thanks to Oghma, and I don't think they've forgotten that. A low grade paranoia could well be in effect even without compelling reason to believe that Cyrinishad is in active use, just because it could be and they'd be none the wiser. But yes, he did create a powerful artifact, which is the only shred of competence hes ever shown (and that wouldn't be very impressive if the book didn't affect Gods, since any Deity can create artifacts). You think? It's exactly the sort of thing the likes of Bane would have loved to craft and utilize; even with its shortcomings as far as extending its effects world wide is concerned, it's perfect for consolidating one's own territory and if reserved in its use to that extent (and perhaps the induction of prisoners/sacrifices obtained through the church's efforts) it isn't threat enough to the pantheon as a whole to stir them from their existing plots and feuds to strike it and its creator down as one. The evil gods that wouldnt have made one in a second if they could are in the minority, and to a lesser extent the same applies to neutral deities. An artifact that completely subverts the will and faith of mortals without any hope of resisting it is damned impressive; if that's all it did, and incidentally mortals were the extent of its intended focus by all accounts within Prince of Lies, Cyric would still be reigning over Hades (or the Fugue, if you insist), Kelemvor would've died or been consigned to endless torment in their initial confrontation, and between both Cyric and Kezef's efforts, Mask would have been shy a damn sight more than a leg. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for him, considering it was his own artifact that did it to him. A testament to the power of the artifact, and thus the mind that proved capable of devising it, however. And even then its not as if hes wholly sane now Hard to say, really, given that we don't have a recent glimpse into his thought processes. His present actions, however, do suggest a certain functional level of sanity, with his abandonment of actively setting his churches against each other, generally working to consolidate his ranks, and creating the Spur Lords, who are eminently suited to do just that. - I'd say Tyr hit the nail on the head when he said Cyric was mad even back in his mortal days, the Cyrinishad just amplified it Maybe he was and maybe he wasn't, but it's the type of madness that matters, really. Cyric's ambitions and predilections could perhaps be described as mad, but he no longer believes himself to be a peerless, unassailable existence that always gets its way even when it doesn't. He has in effect exchanged paralyzing hubris for murderous greed, which isn't the sort of insanity that would render him unfit for his office. (he was mad enough to invent the lies it contained to begin with, recall, and we know that he can even replace his own memories with lies simply through wishful thinking). The designers, as per the realms roundtable article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fr/20010214c), put the madness Cyric exhibited in Prince of Lies down to the effects of suddenly absorbing powerful portfolios. The entirety of Leira's is perhaps of key relevance in the latter example you mention, and as for the former, contriving falsehood isn't a sign of madness.
Zevox 07-20-07, 01:12 AM	A greater god of murder doesn't need a special tool to nix a lesser goddess, Godsbane was incidental to her demise. As for Mask's indirect aid, there's no telling how vital that actually was to the event given how sparsely detailed it is. The fact remains that he had Mask's aid in the event, and considering the vast amount of arrogance hes displayed even from his mortal days (much less after he became a Deity), I highly doubt he'd have enlisted the Shadowlord's aid unless he needed it. Pure luck? Not as such, unless you count Mask's mistakes as some kind of random happenstance rather than decisions (poorly) made. What mistake? He inhabited Fzoul's body in order to shield him from the effects of the Cyrinishad, yes, but considering that not even Cyric had any inkling that it was capable of influencing Gods until he saw what it did to Mask, that can hardly be considered a mistake. Had he had any sort of indication it would affect him and still done as he did, yes, that would be a mistake, but as is he merely did what he (and two Greater Gods, one of whom is the God of Knowledge) thought best at the time. So yes, it was pure luck for Cyric that those events occurred and allowed him to grab Mask's Intrigue portfolio. Opportunism? Sure, in spite of a state of complete duress on both internal and external grounds. Oh please, as if any amount of duress could stop any power-hungry Deity from making an opportunistic grab like that. Again, Cyric grabbing Intrigue from Mask is no sign of his ability at all. The first humiliation is indeed Mask's reduction to abject pleading before Cyric after reading the tome. And as I said, given Cyric never had the faintest inkling his book could even do that, much less actively orchestrated it, that can't be attributed to him as some sort of accomplishment. (indeed, it's arguable that even Cyric was caught by surprise at the true extent of the Cyrinishad's power) Arguable? I'd say its inarguable - Cyric's sheer shock and confusion at Mask's actions points to it, and surely he'd never have read the book himself if he'd known it had that kind of power (and if he would have, it would only be one more sign of his idiocy). but that doesn't change the fact that Mask succumbed to it and debased himself so completely, let alone at such cost. No doubt Mask attempts to console himself in much the same way you would minimize the disgrace it poses to him, but the umbrage and frustration remain still. There is a reason for his hatred of Cyric, after all. Aye, theres certainly no way to argue that wasn't a humiliating incident for Mask. As I said though, theres also no way to give it to Cyric as an accomplishment to show him as a competent Deity, considering his involvement in it was purely incidental in that he happened to be the one to create the Cyrinishad. The second time was Mask's impotent shrieking for the portfolio of Intrigue at the end of the trial, to say nothing of his maimed state due to witlessly capering into Mystra's trap. But that's more a matter of Mask humiliating himself than Cyric doing the job for him, I agree. Then we agree on that one, in a way - Cyric had nothing to do with it, so its no feather in his cap. No, he drove him mad first and foremost as a retributive action against Mystra and that was just one part of what led to the rift between her and Kelemvor. It began with the counter charges Cyric levelled, which led Kelemvor to seriously reconsider his own policies (much to Mystra's vexation), proceeded with the various object lessons affirming his newfound doubts as the trial progressed (which Cyric indeed had nothing to do with aside from predicting them in the broader sense), and concluded with the Adon incident. Adon's conversion was indeed a desired outcome, but more as icing on the cake than anything else. ...and yet all of that just goes to prove my point. Cyric never intended to cause the effect he did with those actions, and the effects he was trying to cause failed. That Mystra and Kelemvor's love was broken was an unforseen side-effect - a handy one for him I'm sure he enjoyed, but no accomplishment of his. But Tyr did support him in action if not sentiment, by attempting to keep the other gods in line so the evidence could be read. Also in seeing the charges broadened to encompass Kelemvor and Mystra at Cyric's motion. Doing his duty and seeing that the laws Ao laid down for the Gods to follow are enforced is not equivalent to supporting Cyric. Their fear is thus diminished, not annulled. The same sort of uproar would commence if the prospect of the Cyrinishad's use were to reimerge, and it's not like an oath from Cyric is all that reassuring. True, but if it ever reemerged after that oath, Cyric would be brought to trial again (a trial I doubt he'd survive) at the very least. It might be difficult for them to learn if it were in use, but its not as though it would be impossible - theres plenty of mortals who serve Deities other than Cyric, and all it takes is for one of them to notice the book and its effects without suffering it for the Gods to be alerted. A testament to the power of the artifact, and thus the mind that proved capable of devising it, however. No - a testament to the power of the artifact, and thus to the power of those that enchanted it, which if memory serves was Baatezu, not Cyric. The idea for it may be the starting point, but its not what gives it the power you're referring to in this case. Maybe he was and maybe he wasn't, but it's the type of madness that matters, really. Cyric's ambitions and predilections could perhaps be described as mad, but he no longer believes himself to be a peerless, unassailable existence that always gets its way even when it doesn't. He has in effect exchanged paralyzing hubris for murderous greed, which isn't the sort of insanity that would render him unfit for his office. To a point, true, though as for him being unfit for his office, he still has yet to display any actual aptitude for several of his stolen portfolios - Leira's Illusion and Deception and Mask's Intrigue, specifically. Strife hes surely fit for - he seems to be unable to avoid causing that no matter where he goes or what he does - and lies I'd call him suited for, if only due to the facts of his memory-altering wishful thinking and the Cyrinishad. Knock him down to lesser, or maybe lower-strength intermediate, deity with those two portfolios and I'd have much less of a problem with him (then it would just be reduced to my fundamental disagreement with any CE God, due to being more or less LG myself). The designers, as per the realms roundtable article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fr/20010214c), put the madness Cyric exhibited in Prince of Lies down to the effects of suddenly absorbing powerful portfolios. The entirety of Leira's is perhaps of key relevance in the latter example you mention, and as for the former, contriving falsehood isn't a sign of madness. Oh, its almost certain that his acquisition of Leira's portfolios was what precipitated his "ability" to unintentionally replace his own memories. That doesn't change the fact that its something which reflects pretty poorly on him and his sanity - if nothing else it would surely cause damage his sanity the longer it goes, given his mind will be immersed in a completely different version of history and reality which is complete falsehood. Zevox
Vasyek 07-20-07, 04:00 AM	The fact remains that he had Mask's aid in the event, and considering the vast amount of arrogance hes displayed even from his mortal days (much less after he became a Deity), I highly doubt he'd have enlisted the Shadowlord's aid unless he needed it. Whereas I could see it as a matter of convenience and backhanded contempt on Cyric's part. Mask wanted to play the part of the apparent ally at that stage in events and Cyric had no reason not to make the overture cost him; Mask's involvement could thus have been more a matter of testing the Shadowlord than any urgent need for assistance, and would serve the purpose of alienating him from a former ally whether Leira died or not. In any event, I think you mischaracterize Cyric's pride. It is at least as well served by getting others to labor for him as it is by doing the job himself, he's always thrilled to exploit those around him, and all the moreso if they happen to be gods. Certainly, there are matters that he won't trust them enough to take a center role on, but it's for precisely this reason that the notion of him even entertaining the possibility of staking the end result of the Leira incident on Mask's ability to perform and intent to do so loyally is so dubious. Cyric certainly has arrogance to spare, but it's easily overshadowed by his suspicion and misanthropy. If Cyric bothered to involve Mask at all in an undertaking like deicide, then he'd do so considering Mask's failure or betrayal all but a given. As such, if Cyric was of the belief that Mask's aid was integral to snaring Leira then in all likelihood he would have forgone the course of action entirely. He didn't have any urgent need for her power at the time and the prospect of having the endeavor spoiled or even turned against him would have dimmed the incentive to act considerably. What mistakes Cyric has made did not occur through excess of trust in others. What mistake? He inhabited Fzoul's body in order to shield him from the effects of the Cyrinishad, yes, but considering that not even Cyric had any inkling that it was capable of influencing Gods until he saw what it did to Mask, that can hardly be considered a mistake. Had he had any sort of indication it would affect him and still done as he did, yes, that would be a mistake, but as is he merely did what he (and two Greater Gods, one of whom is the God of Knowledge) thought best at the time. So yes, it was pure luck for Cyric that those events occurred and allowed him to grab Mask's Intrigue portfolio. Mistakes, not mistake; you're getting too caught up in the final nail in Mask as lord of intrigue's coffin here. I don't fault Mask for stumbling into the Cyrinishad's clutches any more than I do Cyric because of the point we agree on: that neither had even begun to imagine that it's potential influence extended so far. At most, I could spin something about a healthy suspicion, but frankly the idea of gods getting paranoid about something just because it can affect mortals seems more absurd to me. The actual mistakes were as follows: the first was vesting so much energy in the godsbane facade that he dwindled to lesser godhood, the second was collaborating to at least a minimal extent with Cyric in the effort to kill Leira, and the third was releasing Kezef after re-imprisoning him. The first would be staggering enough on its own even if it did not exacerbate the consequences of the third, and the second could only serve to soften the blow dealt to Cyric in the Cyrinishad debacle. Mask's further decline/loss of intrigue was thus inevitable even without him succumbing to the Cyrinishad because, as I've said before, the aftermath of Prince of Lies would have been even worse for Mask if the Cyrinishad had not been able to affect gods. He would have still been on the run from Kezef, Cyric would have had no trouble adapting his form to deal with Kelemvor and crushed the heart of the rebellion in his kingdom in the process, and Cyric would be intent on reprisal afterward, yet retaining all the portfolios he'd have otherwise lost, acting as one of Mask's pursuers alongside the Chaos Hound or directing his attention to ravaging Mask's church with conflict and division (as he threatened to do with Torm in the Gwydion incident) while Mask was occupied. There would have been no trial and thus no hope for Mask's ill-fated counterstroke, let alone any protection provided by the circle of twelve due to his role as a witness, no reason for Mystra to craft Houndsbane, and no distraction for Cyric; it would simply have been a matter of Mask scurrying through the heavens as his church and realm fell to shambles, left with not much beyond the choice between two deaths by way of resolution. Oh please, as if any amount of duress could stop any power-hungry Deity from making an opportunistic grab like that. It could have quite easily, actually. A divine realm overcome by internal discord is ripe for invasion and an earthly center of worship in upheaval might yet be salvaged, or to cite less practical concerns, which I suspect you'll be more amenable to, the lies of the Cyrinishad could have left room for nothing more than self-assured apathy in accordance with it's "everyone's a puppet on your string no matter what they do or have done" mantra. Ironically, if Cyric had delayed in his reprisal for whatever reason, he probably could have drained a lot more from Mask, who wouldn't have recovered from the Cyrinishad at all if not for the shock of losing Intrigue and being reduced to a demigod (but its conditions for recovery are another development neither could have foreseen.) Again, Cyric grabbing Intrigue from Mask is no sign of his ability at all. Not so much ability as tenacity and initiative, but perhaps there is something of a endorsement of ability in how thoroughly Cyric was able to divest the power from Mask in that single instant. I don't know enough of the particulars of assuming another god's portfolios, willing or otherwise, to say for sure. And as I said, given Cyric never had the faintest inkling his book could even do that, much less actively orchestrated it, that can't be attributed to him as some sort of accomplishment. It comes back to the whole testament to its power and thus the mind that conceived it thing, which I'll attend to further below. ...and yet all of that just goes to prove my point. Cyric never intended to cause the effect he did with those actions, and the effects he was trying to cause failed. That Mystra and Kelemvor's love was broken was an unforseen side-effect - a handy one for him I'm sure he enjoyed, but no accomplishment of his. Only one of the effects he was trying to cause failed, and he wasn't even trying that hard to accomplish that one. The effects he intended of raising the counter-charges were to foment stress and doubt in his fellow ascendees or for them to die if they couldn't or wouldn't adapt to them. It wasn't stated outright but it doesn't need to be, that's just what it as an act of diversion and spite necessarily entailed. He didn't specifically set out to break them up, I'll agree, but that was nontheless entirely an extension of the former of his actions' desired outcomes being brought to pass through his efforts. Doing his duty and seeing that the laws Ao laid down for the Gods to follow are enforced is not equivalent to supporting Cyric. It defaults as such given the circumstances under which Tyr maintained the trial's course; for all they knew it was the Cyrinishad that had been brought before them and Cyric knew full well that Tyr would be forced to proceed even under the threat of its enslavement. It matters not in the slightest that Tyr didn't act as he did because he somehow cared about Cyric's welfare. There's the whole adage about evil and good men doing nothing, but Cyric did it one better by cornering his judge into facilitating his ambition despite the loathing that judge harbored for him. Of course it wasn't the Cyrinishad after all, but that's another story. It might be difficult for them to learn if it were in use, but its not as though it would be impossible - theres plenty of mortals who serve Deities other than Cyric, and all it takes is for one of them to notice the book and its effects without suffering it for the Gods to be alerted. Sure, it's not impossible for it to be discovered, but there are considerable obstacles to the gods' discovery of it via mortals encountering and subsequently reporting it. The mortal in question would have to get a good, long at it to decisively establish the agency of the Cyrinishad as opposed to run of the mill enchantment/brain-washing, which could easily be lethal for them given the sorts of precautions the bearers would be forced to take, the consequences of its discovery would assure that the tome itself was disguised to mortal eyes, the conditions under which it would be used would inevitably be those where the chance of discovery was minimized or annulled, which rather precludes accidental contact with it for the most part, and once Cyric became aware of its discovery, he would subject the bearers and their surroundings under constant scrutiny as a matter of course, which makes the chances of any mortals successfully sneaking up on or escaping from those who harbor the book abysmal to nonexistent. If it was used incessantly, then all that wouldn't be enough eventually, but the book's true danger lies in its ability to convert anyone as much as its ability to convert en masse. Given the sorts of consequences that would result from the discovery of its continued use, it would be exploited first and foremost, or even exclusively, in the former capacity. If used sparingly and as a precision tool, the risks of its discovery as reduced by the aforementioned factors scarcely bears any consideration at all and it would still be capable of influencing the fate of nations. No - a testament to the power of the artifact, and thus to the power of those that enchanted it, which if memory serves was Baatezu, not Cyric. The idea for it may be the starting point, but its not what gives it the power you're referring to in this case. Alas, you're mistaken. Perhaps you're thinking of Gargauth's ritual, but that's altogether distinct from the magic that empowers the Cyrinishad, which Cyric alone is responsible for. To a point, true, though as for him being unfit for his office, he still has yet to display any actual aptitude for several of his stolen portfolios - Leira's Illusion and Deception and Mask's Intrigue, specifically. Not really. As far as those portfolios go, there's the Gwydion incident which is but one of many as implied by the book itself and source material, which makes mention of the mortals he leads astray as a matter of habit and diversion. There's also the fact that his faithful exist nearly everywhere, which even in the vanishingly rare passive context inevitably involves the concealment/misrepresentation of their motives, identity, and faith. There's the intrigue implicit in his designs for the shadow-weave and Shar's designs for his servitude, and there's his demonstrated capacity to adapt to and minimize the effects of the intrigues of his rivals as they relate to him. Oh, its almost certain that his acquisition of Leira's portfolios was what precipitated his "ability" to unintentionally replace his own memories. That doesn't change the fact that its something which reflects pretty poorly on him and his sanity - if nothing else it would surely cause damage his sanity the longer it goes, given his mind will be immersed in a completely different version of history and reality which is complete falsehood. As per the link though, it's a matter that's over and done with; only past incidents, of which we are presented with a total of one, need be considered and even then it's not necessarily the case that the distortion is irreversible or entirely overshadowing of the originals even while/where they are present, as gods could easily possess myriad levels of consciousness to compliment their ability to simultaneously process information from multiple planes in multiple forms. In fact, that capacity may well be implicit in the fact that they are able to hear every prayer to them and sense events relating to their portfolios. If that is the case, then Cyric's distortion of memory may actually be an asset, as on an underlying level the truth perseveres to weighed and responded to while within the others there's simply a confounding mass of lies and fiction, which would inevitably complicate attempts to gauge him through the perusal of his thoughts and similar methods. That's merely a self-indulgent aside as far as you're concerned of course, since you bridle against such specification of divine ability, but from the perspective of their capabilities and internal processes being undefined you've engaged in a considerable leap by theorizing the implications of Cyric's revisionist practices to begin with.
Slayergnome 07-20-07, 04:05 AM	The fact remains that he had Mask's aid in the event, and considering the vast amount of arrogance hes displayed even from his mortal days (much less after he became a Deity), I highly doubt he'd have enlisted the Shadowlord's aid unless he needed it. Zevox Couldn't Cyric have garnered Mask's aid for the sole purpose of breaking the blade so he could weaken Mask. That sounds like a viable reason to get someone to help you.