Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khaelieth 05-16-07, 10:25 AM	I was wondering if Bhaal ever had any of the infernal dukes as allies?
Khaelieth 05-16-07, 06:05 PM	Anyone?
Shemeska the Marauder 05-17-07, 02:42 AM	I'm not aware of it being mentioned in any of the printed material dealing with the planes or the fiends themselves. However there might have been mention in some of the 2e FR material that I'm not aware of, but if so it'll be pretty obscure. (yes, that's a call to educate me to some of you pre-3e FR gurus out there).
Khaelieth 05-18-07, 08:33 AM	Cheers=)
XHereticX 05-18-07, 07:49 PM	I was wondering if Bhaal ever had any of the infernal dukes as allies? I would highly doubt that the Dark Gods and Archfiends would see each other as anything other than competition.
Gray Richardson 05-19-07, 04:17 AM	Bhaal was lawful evil, so he could definitely have made use of devils as allies. His divine realm was located in the Barrens of Doom & Despair though, so he could have easily had relations with the Yugoloths of that plane as well, Malkizid might thus have been his ally. As for devils, I think he could have been allied with any of them. I think especially he might have been friendly with Dispater, probably Bel, maybe Mephistopheles, even Asmodeus. He might as well have been friendly with the ex-devil, now a god, Gargauth. Bhaal would likely have made deals with the Nine Hells to secure devils to use as servitors, and I would think he had a number of various devils serving him in his realm (called the Throne of Blood).
Mirtek 05-19-07, 11:46 AM	He might as well have been friendly with the ex-devil, now a god, Gargauth. He was an enemy of Gargauth. Bhaal and the other Dark Gods opposed Gargauth wherever they could and ruined his plans to ascend to greater power more than once. See Powers&Pantheons
Old Sparky 05-19-07, 02:45 PM	I would highly doubt that the Dark Gods and Archfiends would see each other as anything other than competition. That may be true, however, a duke of hell is not an archfiend. One might be willing to deal with a god hoping to get the most out of the bargain and wind up in a better position in the Hellish heirarchy... whereas a god would likely see a mere duke of Hell as a pawn to use as needed.
Khaelieth 05-19-07, 02:50 PM	He was an enemy of Gargauth. Bhaal and the other Dark Gods opposed Gargauth wherever they could and ruined his plans to ascend to greater power more than once. See Powers&Pantheons Thanks=)
XHereticX 05-19-07, 08:41 PM	That may be true, however, a duke of hell is not an archfiend. One might be willing to deal with a god hoping to get the most out of the bargain and wind up in a better position in the Hellish heirarchy... whereas a god would likely see a mere duke of Hell as a pawn to use as needed. Oh, if you are talking about dukes and rogue archdevils, then that is different. And I have always wondered, where is The Wasting Tower in the Tree anyway? Blood Rift or Barrens?
Shemeska the Marauder 05-20-07, 03:01 AM	And I have always wondered, where is The Wasting Tower in the Tree anyway? Blood Rift or Barrens? It doesn't exist in the 3e cosmology. There's Kexxon's tower in the Blood Rift, and Inthracis' tower of Corpsehaven there as well, and it's plausible that one or the other might be a vague placeholding pastiche of Khin-Oin (but neither has any apparent similarity to the actual Wasting Tower).
XHereticX 05-20-07, 03:29 PM	It doesn't exist in the 3e cosmology. There's Kexxon's tower in the Blood Rift, and Inthracis' tower of Corpsehaven there as well, and it's plausible that one or the other might be a vague placeholding pastiche of Khin-Oin (but neither has any apparent similarity to the actual Wasting Tower). Bah, Inthracis is just some upstart advanced ultroloth that got his ass kicked by a lv 20 drow wizard, in the outer planes mind you. Not a true Yugoloth lord.
Old Sparky 05-20-07, 11:29 PM	Oh, if you are talking about dukes and rogue archdevils, then that is different. Well, I wasn't talking about anything in particular, but Khaelieth asked about relationships with dukes, not archdukes/lords of hell. I presumed he meant the lesser unique devils running around in hell... they are there even if they barely get any attention in FC2.
Dargoth 05-23-07, 07:11 PM	I was wondering if Bhaal ever had any of the infernal dukes as allies? While Ive never seen anything on Bhaal and devils I wouldnt be suprised if Bhaals realm was populated with Assassin devils (From FC2)
Khaelieth 05-23-07, 07:20 PM	While Ive never seen anything on Bhaal and devils I wouldnt be suprised if Bhaals realm was populated with Assassin devils (From FC2) Good point! Cheers=)
XHereticX 05-23-07, 08:03 PM	While Ive never seen anything on Bhaal and devils I wouldnt be suprised if Bhaals realm was populated with Assassin devils (From FC2) Mostly only outcasts,
MarkusTay63 05-24-07, 01:37 PM	Considering the way Vhaerun made Inthracis cr@p his pants, I would say it is more of a minion/master relationship, and not allies. Except for Asmodeus - he could probably B-slap Mystra if he was prepared for her. But he is like the Overgod of Hell, so I don't think he would be bothered with some obscure deity from a single world. Multi-spheric perhaps, but definately NOT Bhaal.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-24-07, 03:52 PM	Considering the way Vhaerun made Inthracis cr@p his pants, I would say it is more of a minion/master relationship, and not allies. That's really the one exception to the rule that on the lower planes themselves, archfiends have sway and gods tend to avoid dealing with them, or the fiends' internal politics. It's really unfortunate that the relationship between those two was handled in that way. I tend to discount that scene of Inthracis/Anthraxus getting pushed around by a minor deity, because the handling of the fiends in general in that particular source is inconsistant with prior lore (ie it has yugoloths being spawned from petitioners, which they don't; fiend resistances are confused several times; it has inthracis getting killed by a mortal, etc). Quite well written, but it doesn't follow the vast bulk of the lore on the topic. More in line with the bulk of material concerning the relationship between evil gods and the fiends, deities would be served by non-unique fiends seeking to profit from the relationship (assuming such service did not run afoul of the interests or orders of any archfiend they themselves served), exiled fiends who had nothing to lose and hoped to gain power to regain status or station back home, or by fiends whose loyalty had been puchased contractually from one of the archfiends (the Baatorian Ministry of Immortal Relations under the pit fiend Zapan of the Dark 8 is big on this, along with Helekanalaith the Keeper of the Tower Arcane for the 'loths, etc). It's not a case of allies or master/servant, it's a case of "what's in it for me" or "the souls of each priest from X world that worship you in the next year go our coffers and in turn we'll grant you control over X number of fiends to do with as you please...(until we grow tired of the deal and drop you like a half-fiend baby down the stairs)."
Mad Mage 05-24-07, 07:47 PM	If it'll be any help, these were my latest ideas for Bhaal's heralds and planar allies. The middle choice was inspired by Lord of Murder's entry in Faiths & Avatars. Bhaal Herald: Fiendish Human Rogue 10/Assassin 10 Allies: Cannoloth (MM3), Grell Philosopher (LoM), Assassin Devil (FC2) Also just checked his entry over again in said book, and I cannot find a single entry as to Bhaal's official relationship with the Nine Hells, unless I'm overreading something (which I doubt). It just as well may be open to expansion by a future source, official or unofficial.
XHereticX 05-25-07, 07:58 PM	That's really the one exception to the rule that on the lower planes themselves, archfiends have sway and gods tend to avoid dealing with them, or the fiends' internal politics. It's really unfortunate that the relationship between those two was handled in that way. I tend to discount that scene of Inthracis/Anthraxus getting pushed around by a minor deity, because the handling of the fiends in general in that particular source is inconsistant with prior lore (ie it has yugoloths being spawned from petitioners, which they don't; fiend resistances are confused several times; it has inthracis getting killed by a mortal, etc). Quite well written, but it doesn't follow the vast bulk of the lore on the topic. More in line with the bulk of material concerning the relationship between evil gods and the fiends, deities would be served by non-unique fiends seeking to profit from the relationship (assuming such service did not run afoul of the interests or orders of any archfiend they themselves served), exiled fiends who had nothing to lose and hoped to gain power to regain status or station back home, or by fiends whose loyalty had been puchased contractually from one of the archfiends (the Baatorian Ministry of Immortal Relations under the pit fiend Zapan of the Dark 8 is big on this, along with Helekanalaith the Keeper of the Tower Arcane for the 'loths, etc). It's not a case of allies or master/servant, it's a case of "what's in it for me" or "the souls of each priest from X world that worship you in the next year go our coffers and in turn we'll grant you control over X number of fiends to do with as you please...(until we grow tired of the deal and drop you like a half-fiend baby down the stairs)." As always, your opinions of the fiends are well-thought out and accurate. But since when did Inthacius become an Anthraxus parallel. Heck, he isn't even an Altaloth and was never the Oinoloth. And as of third edition, the whole single spheric/multi spheric thing has gone down the trash. Hey, who says the Gods of Faerun don't have aspects in other cosmologies?
Shemeska the Marauder 05-25-07, 10:14 PM	But since when did Inthacius become an Anthraxus parallel. Heck, he isn't even an Altaloth and was never the Oinoloth. It was Paul Kemp's intention for Inthracis to be a 3e FR specific analog of Anthraxus; he gave some details over on candlekeep and his blog around two years ago with some really appreciated candor. Very nice guy. But beyond the names being similar, there's really nothing in common between Anthraxus the Altraloth/deposed Oinoloth of the Great Wheel and Inthracis the ultroloth, physical appearance, history, or anything else. It's an homage to Anthraxus yes, but it would appear to preclude the inclusion of the actual Anthraxus into 3e FR. As well, Bubonis is also mentioned in WotSQ as an ultroloth in 3e FR's Gehenna analog of the Blood Rift, rather than as Bubonix the altraloth and Overlord of Carceri (nor does the Obsidian Tower of Bubonis resemble Bubonix's Tower of Incarnate Pain). There's some name homage going on, but nothing otherwise. That aside, the set up of 3e FR's 'loths really precludes using whole swathes of their history, backstory, and perhaps even motivations. Either the 3e FR cosmology would have to be junked (my first choice but unlikely in the immediate future) or the 'loths would need to be rewritten within FR to make a lick of sense within the new context (which I've started to do in one story, and in another in-progress story). “I suppose it’s ironic. You’ve striven so hard to isolate your world, your cosmos, to shelter it like a somewhat distant father who while his children might not see him, might not ever realize it, he loves them truly. You’ve given your children the best that you could. We’re alike in that sense.” Lord Ao turned and glared at the other’s last statement. She shrugged, tilted her head and continued. “But the same things keep happening. Disorder enters the equations. Entropy saps at the gears. I’m speaking in metaphor of course, not in terms of the concepts in elemental or alignment terms, but you understand what I’m getting at: a second time now, and so soon after a fresh beginning, what would seem to be external influences are polluting your creation. Evil seeps through.” It was impossible. The fiends could not have colonized his planes from elsewhere. He did not allow them in. “Are you expecting me to give you an answer to the question tumbling through your mind but which has yet to grace your lips and then my ears? Are you Ao? Of course you do, that’s why I’m still here and why you haven’t sent me away.” He pondered doing just that. He pondered hurling her from Cynosure and back to where she belonged. But he didn’t, and she was keenly aware of that. “We both know that I’m in your home, the equivalent of a prosaic god’s quaint little deific domain, and so it’s within your power to ask me to leave, and I’d be polite and do so.” She looked at the overpower pointedly. “But you haven’t done so, even though you’ve been mostly silent, even though you’ve scowled at me from time to time. You want me to give you an answer.” Ao said nothing. “More than an answer though. You want me to soothe your conscience, tell you that you didn’t make a mistake, tell you that the fiends are a corruption carried over from an earlier failure.”
XHereticX 05-25-07, 10:25 PM	It was Paul Kemp's intention for Inthracis to be a 3e FR specific analog of Anthraxus; he gave some details over on candlekeep and his blog around two years ago with some really appreciated candor. Very nice guy. But beyond the names being similar, there's really nothing in common between Anthraxus the Altraloth/deposed Oinoloth of the Great Wheel and Inthracis the ultroloth, physical appearance, history, or anything else. It's an homage to Anthraxus yes, but it would appear to preclude the inclusion of the actual Anthraxus into 3e FR. As well, Bubonis is also mentioned in WotSQ as an ultroloth in 3e FR's Gehenna analog of the Blood Rift, rather than as Bubonix the altraloth and Overlord of Carceri (nor does the Obsidian Tower of Bubonis resemble Bubonix's Tower of Incarnate Pain). There's some name homage going on, but nothing otherwise. That aside, the set up of 3e FR's 'loths really precludes using whole swathes of their history, backstory, and perhaps even motivations. Either the 3e FR cosmology would have to be junked (my first choice but unlikely in the immediate future) or the 'loths would need to be rewritten within FR to make a lick of sense within the new context (which I've started to do in one story, and in another in-progress story). Ohh, I like it. I've read your storyhours before and they are quite good, havn't checked on them in months though. U still updating? yeah, this new cosmology has LOTS of problems and I still prefer the wheel .Still, its canon, and I always go with canon. The one good thing that this cosmology does is that is allows realms-shaking events to occur with formerly multi-spheric deities without affecting other planets. Ex. Lolth can have her Demonweb as a separate plane in FR yet still be in the Abyss in GH, which was impossible to do with the old system. Oh, as for the loths's history. I just take Gray Richardson's way of thinking and put them as interlopers from the wheel brought with the demons and devils to Faerun by Shar during the War of Light and Darkness. Can you give me a link to paul's blog, sounds interesting. And one thing I never got about the loths is that all the archfiends seems to be Ultroloths. What is up with that, aren't Ultroloths supposed to the the equivelent of Balors and Pit Fiends? I have typically thought of the Altaloths and Baernloths as the true "archfiends" of the Yugoloths. Plus there are unique examples such as Malzikid.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-26-07, 02:00 AM	Ohh, I like it. I've read your storyhours before and they are quite good, havn't checked on them in months though. U still updating? :) Still updating both of them. Been doing SH2 lately, but about to switch back to SH1. And one thing I never got about the loths is that all the archfiends seems to be Ultroloths. What is up with that, aren't Ultroloths supposed to the the equivelent of Balors and Pit Fiends? I have typically thought of the Altaloths and Baernloths as the true "archfiends" of the Yugoloths. The Ultroloths have a much more prominant role in 'loth society than the pit fiends and balors have in the Abyss or Baator. While it's more accurate than not to compare pit fiends and balors, the comparison isn't quite as accurate to then include ultroloths. The altraloths are a perversion, gaining power at the expense of purity, and while the position of Oinoloth grants a unique form (if a physical corruption can be considered as such), the most powerful 'loths might not necessarily look dramatically different from others of their kind: the General of Gehenna and Mydianchlarus versus other ultroloths, or Helekanalaith and Larsdana Ap Neut versus other arcanaloths. And then it's not certain that the Baernaloths are all necessarily that different from one another (though I present the members of the Demented as each having a unique ailment or corruption in my stuff, only Harishek Ap Thulkesh with his blindness is canonical). Plus there are unique examples such as Malzikid. But he isn't a yugoloth ;)
XHereticX 05-26-07, 10:48 AM	:) Still updating both of them. Been doing SH2 lately, but about to switch back to SH1. The Ultroloths have a much more prominant role in 'loth society than the pit fiends and balors have in the Abyss or Baator. While it's more accurate than not to compare pit fiends and balors, the comparison isn't quite as accurate to then include ultroloths. The altraloths are a perversion, gaining power at the expense of purity, and while the position of Oinoloth grants a unique form (if a physical corruption can be considered as such), the most powerful 'loths might not necessarily look dramatically different from others of their kind: the General of Gehenna and Mydianchlarus versus other ultroloths, or Helekanalaith and Larsdana Ap Neut versus other arcanaloths. And then it's not certain that the Baernaloths are all necessarily that different from one another (though I present the members of the Demented as each having a unique ailment or corruption in my stuff, only Harishek Ap Thulkesh with his blindness is canonical). But he isn't a yugoloth ;) If that is the case, then what is with the wimpy stats in MM3? And do any of these guys exist in FR or not?
Shemeska the Marauder 05-26-07, 01:07 PM	If that is the case, then what is with the wimpy stats in MM3? The left hand not knowing what the right is doing. More or less apparently. MM3 converted the MotP versions into 3.5, but it neither took into account the massive boost in power that most tanar'ri and baatezu gained in the 3.5 transition, or that those original 3e stats for the 'loths have always been woefully underpowered compared to their 2e and even 1e incarnations (when ultroloths were in many respects more powerful than pit fiends and balors, even before taking ecology and influence into account which wouldn't be reflected in a statblock). And do any of these guys exist in FR or not? If you use the Great Wheel cosmology then yes. If you use the 3e retconned FR cosmology then you probably shouldn't get your hopes up. References to Kexxon, Inthracis, and Bubonis would seem to preclude the 3e FR cosmology having either Mydianchlarus, the General of Gehenna, Anthraxus, or Bubonix, and none of the other altraloths would make sense stripped of context either. And as nominally the Tower Arcane doesn't exist, I wouldn't expect to see Helekanalaith or Larsdana Ap Neut anytime soon. It's very unfortunate.
XHereticX 05-27-07, 03:19 PM	Who the heck is Kexxon? The oinoloth?
Gray Richardson 05-27-07, 04:44 PM	Yes, in the Forgotten Realms plane of the Blood Rift, Kexxon holds the title Oinoloth. Kexxon's fortress, called the Steel Keep, is the highest, and sits right at the lip of the caldera of Mount Calaas, the largest volcanoe of the Blood Rift and the seat of yugoloth power. Inthracis is the next most powerful ultraloth after Kexxon. His keep is called Corpsehaven, and it is located on the edge of a plateau, about a half-league wide, jutting out of the side of Calaas, about 20 leagues down from the lip of the volcano where Kexxon lives. 2 or 3 leagues further down (I am guessing that means about 2 leagues straight down but maybe jogging over a league or so off to the side) lies another such plateau where the 3rd ranking ultraloth, Bubonis, lives in the Obsidian Tower atop which fly flags made from human skin. All the elite ultraloths of the Blood Rift have a lair on Mount Calaas, and the relative height of that lair up the slope indicates where they fall in the pecking order of yugoloth leadership.
XHereticX 05-27-07, 04:53 PM	Yes, in the Forgotten Realms plane of the Blood Rift, Kexxon holds the title Oinoloth. Kexxon's fortress, called the Steel Keep, is the highest, and sits right at the lip of the caldera of Mount Calaas, the largest volcanoe of the Blood Rift and the seat of yugoloth power. Inthracis is the next most powerful ultraloth after Kexxon. His keep is called Corpsehaven, and it is located on the edge of a plateau, about a half-league wide, jutting out of the side of Calaas, about 20 leagues down from the lip of the volcano where Kexxon lives. 2 or 3 leagues further down (I am guessing that means about 2 leagues straight down but maybe jogging over a league or so off to the side) lies another such plateau where the 3rd ranking ultraloth, Bubonis, lives in the Obsidian Tower atop which fly flags made from human skin. All the elite ultraloths of the Blood Rift have a lair on Mount Calaas, and the relative height of that lair up the slope indicates where they fall in the pecking order of yugoloth leadership. Ty for clarifying Gray. Resurrection overall was a decent book(thought not as good as some of the other books in the series). But the whole thing with the second most powerful loth in the Blood Rift being bossed around by a Lesser deity and defeated by a lv 20 drow wizards made me throw up. Heck, judging by his power, Inthracis should have been able to kill the entire drow party with a wave of his hand, take Selvartum down afterwards, and kick Vhaeraun straight out of HIS tower for daring to order him around. sigh...how the mighty have fallen...
GothWulf 05-27-07, 05:36 PM	Ty for clarifying Gray. Resurrection overall was a decent book(thought not as good as some of the other books in the series). But the whole thing with the second most powerful loth in the Blood Rift being bossed around by a Lesser deity and defeated by a lv 20 drow wizards made me throw up. Heck, judging by his power, Inthracis should have been able to kill the entire drow party with a wave of his hand, take Selvartum down afterwards, and kick Vhaeraun straight out of HIS tower for daring to order him around. sigh...how the mighty have fallen... The only reason that I didnt have more of a problem with that scene then I did was because, after all, he WAS taken by suprise by Vhaerun...so that may have made a bit of difference in the way that things played out. Wulfe
XHereticX 05-28-07, 10:47 AM	The only reason that I didnt have more of a problem with that scene then I did was because, after all, he WAS taken by suprise by Vhaerun...so that may have made a bit of difference in the way that things played out. Wulfe Caught off guard? In his own realm? I highly doubt it. And even if that was just a coincidence, how do you explain him getting taken down by some emo drow wizard?
Gray Richardson 05-28-07, 01:18 PM	But the whole thing with the second most powerful loth in the Blood Rift being bossed around by a Lesser deity and defeated by a lv 20 drow wizards made me throw up. Heck, judging by his power, Inthracis should have been able to kill the entire drow party with a wave of his hand, take Selvartum down afterwards, and kick Vhaeraun straight out of HIS tower for daring to order him around. sigh...how the mighty have fallen...I think people may have a misunderstanding about the relative power of yugoloths. Inthracis is an ultroloth, which, according to Monster Manual III is only a base CR 13 creature. Pretty much any god, and any 20th level character for that matter, would have no problems dealing with a CR 13 creature. Now, one would expect that the very top of the yugoloth heirarchy would be advanced versions, so we can expect that Inthracis would have some extra hit dice or class levels. WotC's design philosophy typically pegs fiend lords around CR 20 give or take a few levels, so even if we gave Inthracis a few arcane caster levels (say 7) to place him up around 20th level, he would still be a reasonable match, and possibly at a disadvantage, for a true 20th level arcane caster. And still no match for a god. Sure, the arch-devils and demon princes have a little extra added "umph" due to bonding in a symbiotic relationship with a layer of their respective planes. This would seem to invest them with some sort of proxy divine rank of at least DVR zero or 1. So the demon princes of the Abyss, and the dukes of Hell can make some claim to have a degree of power to make them fitting opponents for a god. However, the ultroloths have no similar mechanism to achieve proxy or virtual divinity. There is nothing about the layer of the Blood Rift (or even Gehenna) that would invest them with similar divine power. Perhaps you could argue that the Altraloth process invests yugoloth lords with some sort of virtual or pseudo-divine rank. Perhaps the special towers of the yugoloths have a similar function, or it is possible there is something about the volcano Calaas itself that gives a substantial benefit to the 'loth lords (worth exploring), but if so it has not been made clear that that is the case. However you look at it, ultroloths simply do not have the personal power that a demon prince, an archdevil, or a god or even an epic level mortal player character has in 3.5 D&D rules as written. Even in 2e, the yugoloth's power was always portrayed as coming from their ability to manipulate others and consolidate political power in themselves. They dominate others of their kind, not so much through physical or magical power, but through sheer force of personality and will. I mean, just think of it: Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mussolini, these real-life tyrants were responsible for the deaths of millions, were feared by many nations, and yet were physically no more powerful than any ordinary man. One-on-one, a soldier in any army could take one of them out in combat. But getting into their respective seats of power, getting past all the minions, that is where their power really lied. Sure Inthracis might have a trick or two up his sleeve. I would think he should have a few artifacts and relics that give him eldritch powers. He might have some powerful wards on his keep, mythal level perhaps. And he probably has some handy escape options (quickened plane shift, etc.) as a last resort in case he gets in a real bind, though he wouldn't tip his hand except in very dire circumstances. But ultimately an ultraloth in 3.5 D&D is no match for a god or even a 20th level PC (at least without substantial advancement or buffing). In light of this, Inthracis was portrayed entirely appropriately in Resurrection, and was right in-line with the rules as written.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-28-07, 02:58 PM	In light of this, Inthracis was portrayed entirely appropriately in Resurrection, and was right in-line with the rules as written. Before specifically addressing some of what you wrote above, I just have to ask: you don't honestly believe that do you?
Gray Richardson 05-28-07, 03:16 PM	Yes I do.
XHereticX 05-28-07, 04:06 PM	Um Grey, thats nice and all, but as of the FCs, the ASPECTS of demon princes and archdevils are in the CR 20s, which puts them back in the running vs the gods. I would expect to keep things constant they would make the Yugoloths around the same level. Are you implying that an aspect of Malkizid(Champions of Ruin) is stronger than Kexxon?
Shemeska the Marauder 05-28-07, 04:12 PM	Inthracis is an ultroloth, which, according to Monster Manual III is only a base CR 13 creature. Sadly the MM3 did a relatively poor job on the base ultroloth, compared both to its 2e and even 1e incarnations, the 3e arcanaloth, and even more so compared to the 3.5 Balor and Pit Fiend. Rather than just my opinion on the subject, I'd suggest that we look at how Dungeon magazine took the issue to task. While they have not been able to include a full reworking of a 3.5 ultroloth, a decent baseline to look at for an ultroloth might be the ultroloth presented in Dungeon #X. Take that as a baseline and go up from there. You can't directly take a base ultroloth and assume that the highest tiers of 'loth society (not inclusive of those with unique forms) are composed of a bunch of base ultroloths, no more so than you might look at a base Balor and a base Pit Fiend and assume that the highest tiers of the Abyss and Baator were populated by nothing but those, or those with a single digit number of hit dice added. Unlike the Abyss and Baator, and I think you're missing this point, the 'loths don't push for their highest ranking members to have a unique form. The strongest member of their race, the General of Gehenna, was and is an ultroloth of monstrous power. From all that's known, the General is physically indistinguishable from his lesser kindred. Even within the 3e retconned FR cosmology, there's no reason to assume that Inthracis (Anthraxus), Kexxon (the General? Mydianchlarus?), or Bubonis (Bubonix) are simply baseline 'loths, any more than you might assume the actual General of Gehenna, or Mydianchlarus the Oinoloth are -just- baseline ultroloths. Now, one would expect that the very top of the yugoloth heirarchy would be advanced versions, so we can expect that Inthracis would have some extra hit dice or class levels. WotC's design philosophy typically pegs fiend lords around CR 20 give or take a few levels, so even if we gave Inthracis a few arcane caster levels (say 7) to place him up around 20th level, he would still be a reasonable match, and possibly at a disadvantage, for a true 20th level arcane caster. And still no match for a god. Except that's not true. It was tried in the BoVD, and we saw how well that went over. FC:I and FC:II have not given them stats for any putative true forms, but only for avatars/aspects. Without true stats (and it's foolish to argue purely from stats mind you) we must default to flavor text, and with Inthracis's little thing in WotSQ being a wierd little exception, the bulk of that flavor texts suggests that the archfiends (be they Baatorian, Abyssal, or 'loth) and gods avoid one another, and the gods don't get involved in the fiends internal affairs because they've tried it before and suffered for it. We've got Kiaransalee running in horror from Thanatos, the fiends forcing gods to withdraw from the Blood War, Abrymoch being built atop the corpse of a god killed by Asmodeus, Khin-Oin being carved from the spine of a god killed by the 'loths, Pale Night being capable of teleportation within Lolth's deific domain while in the actual presence of an aspect/avatar of 'loth herself (a flaunting of 'rules' that would seem to restrict even gods more powerful than 'loth when within another gods domain), etc. Sure, the arch-devils and demon princes have a little extra added "umph" due to bonding in a symbiotic relationship with a layer of their respective planes. This would seem to invest them with some sort of proxy divine rank of at least DVR zero or 1. So the demon princes of the Abyss, and the dukes of Hell can make some claim to have a degree of power to make them fitting opponents for a god. There's no upper bound or strict limitation to just what they're capable of doing by virtue of that bond. Gods can manipulate their domains, while the various archfiends effectively -are- their respective layers. I would suspect that manifestations of a plane itself would have more control and knowledge than something not from there. However, the ultroloths have no similar mechanism to achieve proxy or virtual divinity. There is nothing about the layer of the Blood Rift (or even Gehenna) that would invest them with similar divine power. The position of Oinoloth provides that level of control, but the position itself isn't even capable of providing a 'loth more power than some of his peers (ie the General is still more powerful than the Oinoloth, and Anthraxus even stripped of his position and all political power within the 'loth hierarchy still is making gods weary of dealing with him). Anything beyond that is speculation, or hasn't been addressed in 3e, but given their history and exploits (even just for arcanaloth lords like Larsdana Ap Neut), they're on par with the Abyssal Lords or Baatezu nobility. Had the events we're picking over happened on the prime material, or another plane outside of the NE planes (or FR's 3e Blood Rift), I'd overwhelmingly give the god the advantage. But it didn't happen there, it happened in the fiend's personal domain within its home plane, and that pushes me to one conclusion: Inthracis should have made a mockery of him, or used him for a toothpick, or both. Obviously we disagree on this issue, but I'm rather comfortable with the material I can pull upon.
XHereticX 05-28-07, 04:18 PM	Sadly the MM3 did a relatively poor job on the base ultroloth, compared both to its 2e and even 1e incarnations, the 3e arcanaloth, and even more so compared to the 3.5 Balor and Pit Fiend. Rather than just my opinion on the subject, I'd suggest that we look at how Dungeon magazine took the issue to task. While they have not been able to include a full reworking of a 3.5 ultroloth, a decent baseline to look at for an ultroloth might be the ultroloth presented in Dungeon #X. Take that as a baseline and go up from there. You can't directly take a base ultroloth and assume that the highest tiers of 'loth society (not inclusive of those with unique forms) are composed of a bunch of base ultroloths, no more so than you might look at a base Balor and a base Pit Fiend and assume that the highest tiers of the Abyss and Baator were populated by nothing but those, or those with a single digit number of hit dice added. Unlike the Abyss and Baator, and I think you're missing this point, the 'loths don't push for their highest ranking members to have a unique form. The strongest member of their race, the General of Gehenna, was and is an ultroloth of monstrous power. From all that's known, the General is physically indistinguishable from his lesser kindred. Even within the 3e retconned FR cosmology, there's no reason to assume that Inthracis (Anthraxus), Kexxon (the General? Mydianchlarus?), or Bubonis (Bubonix) are simply baseline 'loths, any more than you might assume the actual General of Gehenna, or Mydianchlarus the Oinoloth are -just- baseline ultroloths. Except that's not true. It was tried in the BoVD, and we saw how well that went over. FC:I and FC:II have not given them stats for any putative true forms, but only for avatars/aspects. Without true stats (and it's foolish to argue purely from stats mind you) we must default to flavor text, and with Inthracis's little thing in WotSQ being a wierd little exception, the bulk of that flavor texts suggests that the archfiends (be they Baatorian, Abyssal, or 'loth) and gods avoid one another, and the gods don't get involved in the fiends internal affairs because they've tried it before and suffered for it. We've got Kiaransalee running in horror from Thanatos, the fiends forcing gods to withdraw from the Blood War, Abrymoch being built atop the corpse of a god killed by Asmodeus, Khin-Oin being carved from the spine of a god killed by the 'loths, Pale Night being capable of teleportation within Lolth's deific domain while in the actual presence of an aspect/avatar of 'loth herself (a flaunting of 'rules' that would seem to restrict even gods more powerful than 'loth when within another gods domain), etc. There's no upper bound or strict limitation to just what they're capable of doing by virtue of that bond. Gods can manipulate their domains, while the various archfiends effectively -are- their respective layers. I would suspect that manifestations of a plane itself would have more control and knowledge than something not from there. The position of Oinoloth provides that level of control, but the position itself isn't even capable of providing a 'loth more power than some of his peers (ie the General is still more powerful than the Oinoloth, and Anthraxus even stripped of his position and all political power within the 'loth hierarchy still is making gods weary of dealing with him). Anything beyond that is speculation, or hasn't been addressed in 3e, but given their history and exploits (even just for arcanaloth lords like Larsdana Ap Neut), they're on par with the Abyssal Lords or Baatezu nobility. Had the events we're picking over happened on the prime material, or another plane outside of the NE planes (or FR's 3e Blood Rift), I'd overwhelmingly give the god the advantage. But it didn't happen there, it happened in the fiend's personal domain within its home plane, and that pushes me to one conclusion: Inthracis should have made a mockery of him, or used him for a toothpick, or both. Obviously we disagree on this issue, but I'm rather comfortable with the material I can pull upon. I totally agree with everything shemmy has just said.:D
Gray Richardson 05-28-07, 05:30 PM	Um Grey, thats nice and all, but as of the FCs, the ASPECTS of demon princes and archdevils are in the CR 20sYou are somewhat mistaken. Only FC2 states explicitly that the stats given are for avatars of the arch devils. FC1 makes no such assertion, although it may be logical to treat the stats given in FC1 as if they were avatars, to put them on par with FC2.which puts them back in the running vs the gods.Not necessarily. Gods in Deities & Demigods and in Faiths & Pantheons typically have much higher stats, just a cursory glance indicates class levels averaging around 40, which makes your average god a CR 40 just in class levels alone before averaging in all their divine abilities. Going by the stats as given, fiend lords really just don't stack up to gods when you try to compare apples to apples. I would expect to keep things constant they would make the Yugoloths around the same level.Your expectation is not not in line with the lore and stats as given. Please remember, the yugoloths don't really have anything comparable to the way the demon & devil lords bond with their layers. This presumably gives archdevils and demon princes something akin to virtual or proxy divine rank. Yugoloths don't have that. Yugoloth lords are simply less powerful than demons and devil lords, except perhaps in the way they use their wiles. Are you implying that an aspect of Malkizid(Champions of Ruin) is stronger than Kexxon?I have not seen stats for Kexxon, so I couldn't say. I would probably give Kexxon the edge, although Malkizid has been around a long time and has learnt many secrets from his time as a solar, from the Seldarine, from his time in the Nine Hells as a devil, and now as the leader of a sizable faction of yugoloths as the leader of the Pits of the Yugoloths in the Barrens of Doom & Despair. Kexxon, however, may be far, far older. I halfway suspect him to be the first fiend that contacted Shar from outside the cosmos, drawn to her from across deepest Shadow by her pain and sorrow at the treachery of Selûne and Chauntea. Her sister and daughter wanted to craft a sun to warm Chauntea so that she might bear new life; but the sun would abolish darkness and diminish Shar. How could her loves betray her so? Alone in her anguish, as she sulked in her shadowy realm, Shar's portfolios of loss and hatred first began to emerge and fester. And then one night (for it was always night back then) a roving Baernaloth or Ultraloth, perhaps Kexxon himself--attracted from across deepest Shadow by the wafting scent of her pain--came knocking at Shar's tower door with a solution to all her woes. Revenge. Premptive strike. Punishment. WAR he counseled her. And the spark of joy again filled Shar's eyes. In exchange for certain "considerations" the yugoloth became Shar's tutor in her education of evil. It fostered in her an awareness of the instruments of her retribution and a desire to bend those tools to the execution of her dark will. The fiend escorted Shar across deepest Shadow to the borders of a neighboring cosmology, guiding her to certain fiendish planes within to make her introduction among the most powerful of archdevils, ancient nighthags, and demon princes. Contracts were made. Legions of mercenaries were hired. The price she paid was the pledge of territory, a beachhead for the fiends from which to invade her pristine, untainted crystal sphere. And souls. A new source of souls to serve as grist for the ever-churning mill of their Blood War. In Shar's curious absence, Chauntea and Selûne reveled in the prospect of nourishing warmth and the new life they would make as they drew their plans to craft a sun. And in the midst of their joyful contemplation, the endless peace was shattered as Shar began her invasion at the head of fiendish armies--bearing war, disease, strife, destruction and death in her wake. If Kexxon were indeed that same fiend, I think I would definitely give him a leg up on Malkizid.
XHereticX 05-28-07, 05:47 PM	I recall WoTC made some announcement saying the FC1 stats are aspect stats, though I don't remember from where. And since we don't have any actual stats for fiend lords themselves anymore(BoVD stats are overruled by FCs). If we go by old PS and even FR material, the fiend lords are pretty much in the same league and often shown to be superior to the gods. Though I admit in overall strength they are weaker, their greater experience plus ancient magics more then makes up for it. Plus in their home planes, they could have spit in the faces of the gods and the gods would be sitting ducks. And oh, the Anthraxus, the General of Gehenna, The Oinoloth, Bubonix, and the rest have never been shown to be inferior in any way shape or form to their demonic and diabolic counterparts, so I assume their FR versions woudn't be either. As for lack of morphic control, The Oinoloth certainly does have that kind of control over the surrounding vicinity and the Yugoloth pits in the Barrens plus the volcano Calaas were also most likely created through Morphic powers. Just because the loth lords don't use those powers as apparently dosen't mean they don't have it. If anything, any self-respecting loth lord or any other archfiend would not have to obey a minor drow god's whim in their own realm. If this confrontation was outside the Blood Rift, then Vhaeraun would have had the advantage in power. But even then, they would only be dealing as equals and Vhaeraun would not have dared to insult one of the Yugoloths's greatest lords in such a way as he did.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-28-07, 06:21 PM	You are somewhat mistaken. Only FC2 states explicitly that the stats given are for avatars of the arch devils. FC1 makes no such assertion, although it may be logical to treat the stats given in FC1 as if they were avatars, to put them on par with FC2.Not necessarily. You're forgetting something Gray. The authors of FC:I have stated that it was their explicit intention to present the stats in FC:I as stats for aspects/avatars. They've said this a number of times, and since FC:II took the same approach, I don't think that there's any question regarding the matter here. Your expectation is not not in line with the lore and stats as given. Given everything I posted earlier, his expectations are perfectly in line with a broad look at the lore on the subject.
Gray Richardson 05-28-07, 06:56 PM	Sadly the MM3 did a relatively poor job on the base ultroloth, compared both to its 2e and even 1e incarnations, the 3e arcanaloth, and even more so compared to the 3.5 Balor and Pit Fiend.A poor job? Or an excellent job? Purely a matter of opinion I suppose. They have a lot of smart guys working on these things, and the stats were no doubt discussed and reviewed by many, many people at WotC before being published. Surely they had their sound reasons. You might disagree with their version of what a yugoloth should be, but their version has the imprimatur of being "official". I try to stick to the "rules-as-written" when drawing conclusions. I try not to approach the material with preconceptions and biases (but of course some of that may creep in from time to time). compared to the 3.5 Balor and Pit Fiend.I don't think that gives them enough credit as schemers and clever thinkers. Surely physical power is of less importance than how you use it. I would think that any Ultroloth worth his salt would never engineer events in such a way as to allow a physical conflict with a Balor or a Pit Fiend, or anyone else for that matter. If they are not smart enough to avoid or think their way out of such a conflict in the first place, then they deserve to be smitten from the universe. ;) I'd suggest that we look at how Dungeon magazine took the issue to task. While they have not been able to include a full reworking of a 3.5 ultroloth, a decent baseline to look at for an ultroloth might be the ultroloth presented in Dungeon #X. Take that as a baseline and go up from there. You can't directly take a base ultroloth and assume that the highest tiers of 'loth society (not inclusive of those with unique forms) are composed of a bunch of base ultroloths, no more so than you might look at a base Balor and a base Pit Fiend and assume that the highest tiers of the Abyss and Baator were populated by nothing but those, or those with a single digit number of hit dice added.No problems there, I 100% agree with that. I assume (as I mentioned in my post above) that all ultroloths are advanced in some fashion by class levels or hit dice and augmented by suitable equipment, including relics and artifacts befitting a being of such status. NOt to mention the minions they can command.Unlike the Abyss and Baator, and I think you're missing this point, the 'loths don't push for their highest ranking members to have a unique form. The strongest member of their race, the General of Gehenna, was and is an ultroloth of monstrous power. From all that's known, the General is physically indistinguishable from his lesser kindred. Even within the 3e retconned FR cosmology, there's no reason to assume that Inthracis (Anthraxus), Kexxon (the General? Mydianchlarus?), or Bubonis (Bubonix) are simply baseline 'loths, any more than you might assume the actual General of Gehenna, or Mydianchlarus the Oinoloth are -just- baseline ultroloths.I agree with you there. No problem. However, if you advance the Ultroloths by any given factor, and then you advance the Pit Fiends and Balors by a similar factor, then you still have Pit Fiends and Balors that are more powerful than Ultroloths. Unless of course you advance the ultroloths more than an order of magnitude above their original stats, in which case the baseline stats become insignificant and practically meaningless. Because in that situation, the majority of their power would come from all their augmentations and class levels, etc. Their "yugoloth-ness" as encompassed by their racial or monster stats would really then be only a minor factor in what makes them so powerful.Except that's not true.Whoa, whoa, whoa there, Shemmy. It is true. Saying it's NOT true, does not make it any less true. This is where your own personal bias is creeping in. You fundamentally at your core believe that archfiends should not be anything like CR 20. You envisage them as something much, much greater than they have been depicted in D&D rules. But your vision for them does not accurately reflect the rules as written or even necessarily in some sort of hypothetically optimal ruleset the way they SHOULD be written. It is the stated design philosophy of WotC that fiend lords (or their avatars at least) should be suitable encounters for player characters at the upper end of achievable power scales. This means that fiend lords (or their avatars) should be roughly pegged around CR 20, or perhaps low to mid 20's (if you go with Dragon's Demonomicon stats). DM's are alway free to advance or scale them up in power to suit their campaign, and if I recall the FC1 has tips on doing exactly that. But when setting baseline stats, archfiends are pegged around CR 20 (give or take) and I think that is entirely appropriate if you are going to include stats for them at all in a game that people actually play. Otherwise, their stats should just read "Don't bother, puny mortal, ha, ha, ha, you could never hope to slay ! Go fight something else."Without true stats (and it's foolish to argue purely from stats mind you) we must default to flavor text, and with Inthracis's little thing in WotSQ being a wierd little exception, the bulk of that flavor texts suggests that the archfiends (be they Baatorian, Abyssal, or 'loth) and gods avoid one another, and the gods don't get involved in the fiends internal affairs because they've tried it before and suffered for it.No argument here, actually.There's no upper bound or strict limitation to just what they're capable of doing by virtue of that bond. Gods can manipulate their domains, while the various archfiends effectively -are- their respective layers.I don't necessarily buy this argument. I think there are upper bounds and imagine there are some limitations to what a fiend lord can do with the power granted by its layer. I am not sure that a fiend lord effectively [I]IS his layer. I don't think you can find any actual quote or citation from text to support such an extreme interpretation of an archfiend's bond with his layer, and that doesn't seem to be the current state of the rules in 3.5 edition. That strikes me as your own personal bias creeping in again. That may be the way YOU would like it to be, but I don't think it is the way it is. If I recall, even Ed Greenwood has taken you to task in other forums for claiming that archfiends have power of that magnitude. The position of Oinoloth provides that level of control, but the position itself isn't even capable of providing a 'loth more power than some of his peers (ie the General is still more powerful than the Oinoloth, and Anthraxus even stripped of his position and all political power within the 'loth hierarchy still is making gods weary of dealing with him). Anything beyond that is speculation, or hasn't been addressed in 3e, but given their history and exploits (even just for arcanaloth lords like Larsdana Ap Neut), they're on par with the Abyssal Lords or Baatezu nobility.That's an inference which I don't think you can justifiably make. I could be persuaded, perhaps, that the Oinoloth has achieved some kind of virtual divine rank, on par with that granted by the bonds that archdevils and demon princes have with their layers, by virtue of his being in command of Kin-Oin (would love to see some references if you got 'em). Maybe the Tower of the Arcanaloths does something similar for the General. I don't really know. I could even see the Altraloth procedure doing something similar for the Altraloths (it's a stretch but I could be convinced.) But, as far as I am aware, there is nothing textual to support really (aside from wishful thinking) that the 'loth heirarchy has anything like the proxy divine rank that we assume the demon and devil lords to get from their layers. If you know of any citations from text to support your view, I would gladly love to see a reference. Perhaps you can persuade me.it happened in the fiend's personal domain within its home plane, and that pushes me to one conclusion: Inthracis should have made a mockery of him, or used him for a toothpick, or both.But it DID happen that way. That's the way it was written. That is the official version of events. Which suggests that YOUR base assumptions must be faulty. When a scientist is performing an experiment, and the results contradict his theory or hypothesis, then he either scraps or revises his theory to conform to observed results. You don't seem to be willing to accept WotC's version of the facts. Though I have tremendous fondness and respect for you, I gotta go with WotC and the the official lore.Obviously we disagree on this issue, but I'm rather comfortable with the material I can pull upon.Great! Please provide specific quotes or references and I will enjoy discussing them with you in more detail! :angelhide
Gray Richardson 05-28-07, 11:39 PM	By the way, below is a link to a write up of Inthracis, not stats exactly, but a character profile of him, written by Paul Kemp. Interesting stuff. Worth a look: http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_resurrectioncp
Snarkbone 05-29-07, 09:45 PM	And now to pore oil on fire.... :D FC:I/II is supposed to overwrite contradictions, but what do we do when FC:I/II is being too vague while still technically contradicting old material? For instance, take the issue of Demons getting divine rank by proxy. Let's see what FC:I has to say about that. 1) It begins by a rather mocking account of Tulker nor Ahm's study of demons and how a bunch of future scholars eclipsed him in safeguarding themselves, but it ends by giving him credit for being one of the greatest researchers on the subject and very accurate one. And he claims (with emphasis) that Demon lords ultimately serve their layer not master it. 2) Fast forward to worshipers/thralls, it point black (oddly enough for WotC sources) says that Demons, which they worship/serve, are not the ones that grant them spells, in fact Demons cannot grant spells no matter where worshipers are and where demons are, but Abyss itself can. The persona of a particular demon acts merely as a focus (FC:I is calling Demon lords "conduits") for worshipers to attune themselves to the plane from which the divine energy flows. 3) Thus it is unclear if Demons themselves get any DvR, even by proxy. Demon lords sever the layer -> they cannot grant spells -> Abyss itself grants spells. To me this seems to imply that the layer itself is a deity, but it is in a way unconscious, and the Demon lord becomes "master" of a layer by being the closest manifestation of the layers primal psyche, it is there simply to extend conscious control over other beings in the layer, and for doing that it gets to run amuck with that power for its own benefit in its spare time. Thus begging the question, are demons more powerful than a really high level cleric (with outsider, etc. bonuses to boot)?
Gray Richardson 05-30-07, 12:36 AM	The proxy mechanic was something I suggested on the boards awhile back (don't know if I was ever the first to actually suggest it) to resolve the discrepancy between archfiends (or at least some of them) being described as gods in previous editions but resolutely not gods in the current edition. Dice Freaks was suggesting a mechanic called "virtual divine rank", while others were suggesting they just be deemed gods or god-like. I figure 3e already has a mechanic for a god investing some of his divine rank in a celestial servitor or a fiend or even a mortal. It seems to me we could just extend this concept to the layers of the Abyss and Baator (and I suppose possibly other planes), and say that when a demon prince or an archdevil exerts mastery over a layer and bonds with it (whether that involves a ritual or the layer just "chooses" the fiend in some fashion) then that fiend would be invested with a proxy divine rank of at least 0, possibly 1, maybe even DVR 2 or more if the layer were particularly powerful or if the entity commanded more than one layer. While the sourcebooks have pretty much hinted that the archfiends have something like that going on when they bond with a layer, I don't think (unless I have missed a reference somewhere) that this has been explicitly described as using the proxy mechanic. And I certainly don't insist that what is going on IS necessarily a proxy relationship, however, I do think the mechanic would fit really nicely and resolve the situation neatly all around. If we use the 3e proxy mechanic to describe what is going on, then certain fiend lords would, by virtue of being proxies, be the equivalent of gods without actually being gods. They could thus effectively grant spells and wield salient divine abilities and manifest avatars and such, even though what is actually happening is that they are channeling the power of the plane, not something inherent in themselves. This would make all the editions jive nicely and it would be using a mechanic that is already in place, so we wouldn't have to make up new rules to describe what is going on with the fiend lords and why they have god-like powers. That is just one possible solution though, and nothing official, just my own humble suggestion.
Slayergnome 05-30-07, 06:00 AM	I would figure devils of all variety would assist a god if there was something to be gained. Devils are Lawful. But they are also evil. The best way to advance in the devil hierachy is to kill someone above you. Where better then though outsiders. Then there is the chance to corrup those around the god, learn about him and perhaps in the future betray him. Lots of Evil gods also have their own legions of demon and devil servants. Likely due to outsiders and fiends looking for a quicker way to power beyond the comon paths open to them in their home realms.
ripvanwormer 05-30-07, 08:45 AM	A poor job? Or an excellent job? Purely a matter of opinion I suppose. No. It was a poor job. There was really no excuse, no conceivable "sound reason" that justifies nerfing the ultroloths so radically in comparison to the most powerful members of the other fiendish races, so say nothing of their relative power in 2e. They have a lot of smart guys working on these things, and the stats were no doubt discussed and reviewed by many, many people at WotC before being published. Surely they had their sound reasons. My theory is that they were all tripping on peyote at the time. Honestly, there are a lot of smart guys in the forums too, and I'm certain we've all discussed and reviewed it a heck of a lot more than anyone at WotC ever bothered to. From what I can tell, WotC doesn't have that extensive of an editing process. As for Inthracis, I'm prepared to assume that, within the provincial Faerunian cosmology, he's just a classed ultroloth with no particular extra powers or connection to his home plane. There's no reason he needs to be reflective of the general relationship between archfiends and deities if he wasn't an archfiend. I think this is much less interesting than a scenario where he was an archfiend would have been, but as I'm not much concerned with what the Faerunian cosmology does, or the War of the Spider Queen saga in general, I'm not too upset about it.
Snarkbone 05-30-07, 08:53 AM	ripvanwormer, do you know if they one of these posters in their Meeting (http://despair.com/meetings.html) room? If we use the 3e proxy mechanic to describe what is going on, then certain fiend lords would, by virtue of being proxies, be the equivalent of gods without actually being gods. They could thus effectively grant spells and wield salient divine abilities and manifest avatars and such, even though what is actually happening is that they are channeling the power of the plane, not something inherent in themselves. While a plausible solution, I don't think that is where WotC is going with this whole thing. They made it very clear that Demons can't "effectively grants spells", actually utterly incapable of it. FC:I also made it explicit that Demons themselves don't channel anything by themselves, they are merely used by the layer as conduits to connect to warshipers, making demons no more divine than a holy symbol (which may have divine energy invested into it, but not DvR). And they spent quite a bit of time setting up planes themselves as masters of Abyss. I think they are gonna go for the whole new hierarchy later on. Something like: Chaos Undivided -> Layers -> Demon Lords -> current demon inner structure. I see this as a good thing, because it would explain both the things your proxy theory explains and more. In particular it'll explain why Pale Night can teleport inside god's realm (Lolth). As Lolth is not a demon anymore, but a god, she lost the connection to the layer, but the layer is still abyssal (even if it was moved out of abyss, which I think is what happened in WotSQ). So we had one god, Lolth, saying "can't just jump around" and another god, Layer, going "the hell she can't". And since Lolth's divine realm is itself a divine being, it won this particular argument, since the nature of the argument concerned the layer more so than Lolth. Now a layer wouldn't necessarily think all of that, it just senses demon's presence and tried to help a familiar creature, again primal instincts come to play. And my longer ranging outlook is hopeful that they will finally reconcile the awesome power of true demons vs weakness of their avatars, by rectifying the stupidest restraint of D&D (not just FR). Thus far all demons/devils and what not are limited by Mystra's limits on Material Plane. WTH! Most of the infernal big boys are older than Prime itself, they should be way the hell higher level and have spells beyond anything a mage on Toril will ever have access to due to Mystra's rules. This way we get god-like fiends, OK'ish avatars to fill the final boss in campaign role, mechanics for worshippers to get power, and eliminate implausible (and imho irreconcilable in current lore) restrictions on Outsiders in place now, in particular it will also fix Devils, who don't have semi-sentient divine planes to juice them up, but are true masters of Hell. Not to mention the delicious irony of justifying their nigh godly powers by denying them divinity.
XHereticX 05-31-07, 08:17 PM	And remember everyone, power and prestige have gone hand in hand in the lower planes for eternity. You can't have an Ultroloth be weaker than an Arcanaloth when it is what the latter fiend is promoted to. I like the proxy idea and the love the Dicefreaks system(which I wish wotc would pay more attention to), the idea of being a god without being one has always been my position on Archfiends. An explanation I have for Inthracis's humiliation at the hands of Phaeraun is that Lolth herself weakened him in the pits and was personally poaring power into Phaeraun during the battle. If the fight was on the material plane or the Blood Rift then Inthracis would have won for sure. But I still don't have any logical explanation as to how Vhaeraun scared the cap out of him like that. Gee, if a lesser deity can scare the crap out of the second most powerful loth in the Rift and depose the Oinoloth himself without much problem, I wonder why some deity hasen't enslaved the loths and carved up the Rift into a divine realm yet.