Bhaalspawn/Poison Waters Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bhaalspawn/Poison Waters Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lobotaru
10-25-07, 04:07 PM Ok, I have a hypothetical question for anyone with knowledge on this subject. We all know that Cyric killed Bhaal at Boareskyr Bridge, causing all the Winding Waters southwind of the bridge to become tainted with his foul essence. Normally, if someone drinks the waters, they die rather quickly as it acts like a poison, but lets say someone who accidentally drank the water was miraculously made immune to the effects of the poison. Since the waters contain the tainted essence of Bhaal, would that person become a Bhaalspawn or would he be moreso "possessed" by Bhaal (since he was a possessing entity during the time of troubles) or would he become a "seed" like Iyachtu Xvim was to Bane?

Oh, and one more question. Could a Bhaalspawn drink from the tainted river and live? (I'm guessing yes, but I like to hear others input).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
10-25-07, 06:14 PM Actually, I think there is lore regarding what happens if someone drinks the water, and I could have sworn it isn't fatal. I don't recall what sourcebook that was in, though.
Lobotaru
10-25-07, 07:03 PM That's wierd. You'd think a god of murder tainting a river would make the water deadly. So does anyone know what book talks about the tainted winding waters?
Old Sage
10-25-07, 07:50 PM Actually, I think there is lore regarding what happens if someone drinks the water, and I could have sworn it isn't fatal. I don't recall what sourcebook that was in, though.Both the 2e A Grand Tour of the Realms and 3e's FRCS contain details about the unpleasant effects of the Winding Water. See the sections for the "Winding Water" in both referenced tomes.
BadCatMan
10-25-07, 08:43 PM It used to be a poison, but 3e, it's become a day long equivalent of a curse and can support life. It seems to be diluting over the years.

It's not been stated what will happen to those who drink the waters and survive, but I imagine a fair few people have tried. That the Realms isn't full of fresh Bhaalspawn, or risen Bhaal deities today probably indicates that nothing is likely to happen.

Some ideas and possibilities:

* Become a Spellthief - see the Class Chronicles series: "Other [Spellthieves] gain their powers... when tainted water (such as from the Winding Water) is ingested in large quantities."

* Drown someone in the river as a sacrifice to Bhaal. That's got to have an effect of some kind.

* There's an old portfolio of Bhaal's lying in there. If you consider that Faiths & Avatars says Bhaal had "Death (especially violent or ritual death)" and Lost Empires Of Faerun says "Assassination, Murder, Violence", and Cyric only picked up Murder (which probably includes Assassination) and Kelemvor got Death, then Violence might be in there still.

* But essentially, whatever you want.
Lobotaru
10-25-07, 08:46 PM Ah, thanks on the reference. Well, that changes my character's backstory just a bit :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
10-25-07, 10:33 PM * Become a Spellthief - see the Class Chronicles series: "Other [Spellthieves] gain their powers... when tainted water (such as from the Winding Water) is ingested in large quantities."

Now, that is a neat idea.
captaincarot
11-04-07, 08:20 AM you would have to be a spell theif with one hell of a thirst to drink an entire river!
but if you could pull it off while slaughtering a few people i might just let you ascend.
Kenzuki
11-28-07, 06:56 PM I've always toyed with this idea of somehow allowing Artemis Entreri to become the new Bhaal myself.
Zireael
11-29-07, 07:54 AM Not drown the sacrificed, but kill. Bhaal was the god of murder. And the Spellthief would be a great idea, though I doubt he'd gain enough power to become Bhaal :) but if he was a Bhaalspawn....:D :D
BadCatMan
11-29-07, 09:15 AM Huh? Forced drowning is murder too.

In fact, I'd go with the mystical three-fold death of Celtic myth, like drowning, stabbing and strangling all at once.
Zireael
12-03-07, 09:57 AM I don't think drowning is a murder in eyes of Bhaal...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
12-03-07, 10:12 AM I don't think drowning is a murder in eyes of Bhaal...

Uhh...it may not be bloody, but it sure as hell is still a form of murder.
Lord Karsus
12-06-07, 01:29 PM I don't think drowning is a murder in eyes of Bhaal...

-Sure it would be. Murder is murder. And, drowning is a pretty painful way to die. Your lungs burn, as all traces of oxygen dissove from them, your heart beats faster and faster, attempting to allow oxygen-thin blood to feed oxygen-starved cells, you panic as you are keenly aware that your demise is near...
GoldDragon
12-09-07, 11:40 PM Ok, I have a hypothetical question for anyone with knowledge on this subject. We all know that Cyric killed Bhaal at Boareskyr Bridge, causing all the Winding Waters southwind of the bridge to become tainted with his foul essence. Normally, if someone drinks the waters, they die rather quickly as it acts like a poison, but lets say someone who accidentally drank the water was miraculously made immune to the effects of the poison. Since the waters contain the tainted essence of Bhaal, would that person become a Bhaalspawn or would he be moreso "possessed" by Bhaal (since he was a possessing entity during the time of troubles) or would he become a "seed" like Iyachtu Xvim was to Bane?

Oh, and one more question. Could a Bhaalspawn drink from the tainted river and live? (I'm guessing yes, but I like to hear others input).

Bhaalspawn running around and causing havoc was the plot of the Baulder Gate Series for the PC and in the end you PC was pretty much the Last true Bhaalspawn standing and was asked if It wanted to take Bhaal's place, or give up the Essence of Bhaal to be locked away forever somewhere in the 7 Heavens. (Had my PC choose to have the Essence of Bhaal locked up....lol)

Water wise it is mostly foul smelling of rotten fish and dark and is a ingestion poison right at the site of Bhaal's death that causes 1d6 damage followed by nausea, vomiting, and dizziness and body-aches for the next 12 hours for one potion dose worth (forgot what class poison it's considered,but remember the symptoms). This "potion" is actually can be bottled...and no, drinking more then one potion bottle worth doesn't increase damage or the length of the sickness as in is a "system shock" effect of first contact, though drinking again after the 12 hours of "healing" can cause the effect again.

Further down the stream the water is still cloudy and stink but drinkable.

Would be nothing other then "Avatar dust" mixing with the water in there as Ao actually stripped the gods of their portfolios before kicking their asses down so no chance of getting any of "Bhaal's powers" by drinking the water as anything he didn't give to Cyric is still "sitting on his desk"
Kenzuki
12-12-07, 02:08 PM As I have said, Bhaal only lost the Murder Portfolio (simply Death prior to the retcon of the name) to Cyric, while his other two; Assassination and Violence are still to my knowledge unclaimed by any god.

Therefore! There is really no real God of Assassins in the Realms, which is sad....
BadCatMan
12-12-07, 06:28 PM Well, Assassination is pretty much the same as Murder. The difference is just a matter of style.

I don't think there really needs to be a specific god of assassins. Most assassins and killers-for-hire would be operating under varying outlooks on life, and need not all share the same god. Some could follow Cyric, others Mask, Shar or Hoar, or indeed any god with a brutal ends-justify-the-means ethos, even some of the good ones.
Kenzuki
12-12-07, 07:00 PM Well, Assassination is pretty much the same as Murder. The difference is just a matter of style.

I don't think there really needs to be a specific god of assassins. Most assassins and killers-for-hire would be operating under varying outlooks on life, and need not all share the same god. Some could follow Cyric, others Mask, Shar or Hoar, or indeed any god with a brutal ends-justify-the-means ethos, even some of the good ones.

If it's much the same why then did Bhaal have both Murder and Assassinations? Why have Mask with Thievery and Garagos with Plunder? Isn't plundering much the same as thievery?
Vasyek
12-12-07, 07:56 PM If it's much the same why then did Bhaal have both Murder and Assassinations?

Well, he didn't until they retconned him. Post-retcon, probably for the same reason that Loviatar has both Pain and Hurt as portfolios.

Why have Mask with Thievery and Garagos with Plunder? Isn't plundering much the same as thievery?

Garagos is a demigod. What portfolios he has in no way limit the scope of Mask's. That said, while Mask may well have a certain rapport with plunder as it is a certain brutish form of theft, I'd imagine he'd be content to let Garagos go wild with it for the most part given his preference for stealing by fraud and finesse in much the same way Tempus leaves the senseless berserker side of war to him.
Lord Karsus
12-12-07, 08:47 PM Isn't plundering much the same as thievery?

-Nope. Plunder is booty obtained via war, hostile raids, and so on. Thievery entails that is something taken by thieft.

-Plunder could be considered a subtype of thievery, if you really want to link the two, but they are not the same.
Kenzuki
12-12-07, 10:09 PM Right right. But I still think Assassination and Murder could be two seperate portfolios as while all assassination is murder not all murder is assassination.
Lord Karsus
12-12-07, 10:56 PM Right right. But I still think Assassination and Murder could be two seperate portfolios as while all assassination is murder not all murder is assassination.

-Agreed. Assassination entails some premeditation and intent, whereas murder does not.
Vasyek
12-12-07, 11:50 PM -Agreed. Assassination entails some premeditation and intent, whereas murder does not.

Depends on your definition of murder, really. At the very least, murder always requires intent: fires don't murder farmers after all, nor do wolves murder lambs. Premeditation is often strongly implied, though admittedly, killing in the throes of passion has no trouble qualifying in common parlance either.

In my opinion there are limits to the viability of conceptual distinctions in portfolios. Assassination vs. Murder is basically in the same camp as Lies vs. Deception, Bad Luck vs. Misfortune, Money vs. Wealth, and Wasting vs. Decay: there are differences between them, but for the most part it's just a way of padding out the god's portfolio description. It doesn't really make much sense for them to be divided amongst different gods unless the god of the narrower instance of the broader portfolio is an estranged/formative aspect, servant, or declining/deposed rival of the other god.
Lord Karsus
12-13-07, 12:01 AM Depends on your definition of murder, really. At the very least, murder always requires intent: fires don't murder farmers after all, nor do wolves murder lambs. Premeditation is often strongly implied, though admittedly, killing in the throes of passion has no trouble qualifying in common parlance either.

-Indeed. A poor choice of words, on my part. Assassination entails a degree of premeditation and calculation, whereas murder does not necessarily involve either of those two. A mafioso hitman who wacks someone who knows too much has both of the aforementioned "traits". A botched bank robbery, resulting in the criminal shooting and killing the bank teller does not have either of the two aforementioned "traits", but yet can be found liable for murder.
Vasyek
12-13-07, 12:32 AM A mafioso hitman who wacks someone who knows too much has both of the aforementioned "traits". A botched bank robbery, resulting in the criminal shooting and killing the bank teller does not have either of the two aforementioned "traits", but yet can be found liable for murder.

For the bank robber vs. mafia hitman example, I'd argue it's more a difference in degree than a difference in kind. Barring the accidental discharge of the robber's firearm, there's a level of implicit preparation and likely conscious assessment of the advantages/disadvantages involved even if it's not their first choice on how to proceed. Similarly, if that mafioso hitman snuffs the target's daughter because she was drawn to the scene by the sound of their struggle it reflects both an underlying resolve to resort that course of action and a level of calculation related to what that action is intended to prevent.

But setting that aside, I suppose I'll ask you if you'd pleasure killing or massacres to be viably distinct as portfolios as well. They seem to meet the same general criterion employed here.
Lord Karsus
12-13-07, 01:08 AM But setting that aside, I suppose I'll ask you if you'd pleasure killing or massacres to be viably distinct as portfolios as well. They seem to meet the same general criterion employed here.

-They already are seperate portfolios: Bhaal has/had 'murder', and I believe Garagos has 'slaughter'.
Vasyek
12-13-07, 01:20 AM -They already are seperate portfolios: Bhaal has/had 'murder', and I believe Garagos has 'slaughter'.

Garagos has War, Skill-at-Arms, Destruction, and Plunder. No mention of slaughter whatsoever in either Faiths & Pantheons or Powers & Pantheons.

Besides, by the same criterion Slaughter is viably distinct from massacres.
Kenzuki
12-13-07, 09:19 AM Lost Empires of Faerun says Bhaal had Murder and Assassination (as well as Violence) so I'm going by that and saying they are different enough...

Interestingly enough, I noticed in the web version of the Netheril sourcebook that Shar once held the portfolio of Murder.....now how did Bhaal end up with it? I know he got (or originally got rather) the portfolio of Death from Jergal.

Also Cyric has the portfolio of Strife right? If this is so why does the FRCS hlist Bane with it too?
Vasyek
12-13-07, 10:53 AM Lost Empires of Faerun says Bhaal had Murder and Assassination (as well as Violence) so I'm going by that and saying they are different enough...

Then by the same reasoning you're committed to the view that because Faith & Pantheons says that Loviatar has Pain, Hurt, and Agony, they are each different enough to represent distinct portfolios capable of being held by two or more gods. If that works for you, I guess that's ok, but it's still absolute nonsense.

Interestingly enough, I noticed in the web version of the Netheril sourcebook that Shar once held the portfolio of Murder.....now how did Bhaal end up with it? I know he got (or originally got rather) the portfolio of Death from Jergal.

You shouldn't expect lore that predates a retcon to explain it in any way. As far as I know it's not a question that any source since has attempted to answer.

I remember hearing something about them passing Shar off as the orchestrator of Karsus' Folly in the Anauroch adventure book or something, so maybe she bit off a bit more than she could chew there and it cost her Murder (and Winter, Intrigue, Thieves/Thievery, Hatred, Lies, and Illusions.) I believe some people also theorize that Shar entrusted Jergal with a number of her portfolios or something, but that doesn't sound too reminiscent of her to me.

Also Cyric has the portfolio of Strife right? If this is so why does the FRCS hlist Bane with it too?

Typo. Since errata'd.
GoldDragon
12-13-07, 03:21 PM As I have said, Bhaal only lost the Murder Portfolio (simply Death prior to the retcon of the name) to Cyric, while his other two; Assassination and Violence are still to my knowledge unclaimed by any god.

Therefore! There is really no real God of Assassins in the Realms, which is sad....

Why? Doesn't take much skill or effort to kill someone for money, just the opportunity and mindset.

Tell me, since there there is a god for everything or another (or so it seems,or that everyone would want), Who would be the god of the Kitchen sink?
Kenzuki
12-13-07, 08:21 PM Hrmmmmm I'm going to go with Finder.

At Loviator, well he she HAS those three portfolios.....obviously they must be different enough for her to have them right?
Vasyek
12-14-07, 12:10 PM obviously they must be different enough for her to have them right?

Sure... obviously. Nevermind that pain and hurt are bleeding synonyms, nevermind that both explicitly relate to feelings of, well, pain, they're listed separately so of course they're different portfolios.

Even if you were to appeal to hurt as cause of distress/injury rather than response to distress/injury, one of the few senses in which the words hurt/pain have any differences to speak of, it really only extends the redundancy issue a hell of a lot further, as most any bad/simply unpleasant thing and some good, or at least positively regarded, things are going to count as a cause of distress/injury. Is Loviatar skimming off the top of basically every action that the evil gods in the pantheon perform to promote a portfolio in addition to the royalties she's already getting from their outcomes, as well as Ilmater's Martyrdom on the side? No way in hell that she'd be a lesser goddess if that was the case.

Or maybe it has the same problems Cyric does with Strife vs. War, in which case it's functionally a nonportfolio anyway: Strife can be perpetuated in a such a way that it does not become War, but neither Hurt nor Agony can be perpetuated in such a way that they do not become Pain. By the same token there's nothing you can do with Assassination that makes it not Murder; indeed, considering that all the common themes attributed to assassination, from payment to guilds to professionalism, are by no means required to achieve its basic meaning, the distinction between it and murder is arguably even weaker than the distinction between pain and agony.

Even if they are held as separate portfolios on the basis of their rather variable and essentially petty distinctions, the extent to which one god would be helpless to promote one of the portfolios without promoting the other renders the narrower/dependent one less than viable as a portfolio when held someone other than the one who reigns over its broader sibling.

Bhaal with Assassination while Cyric has Murder makes about as much sense as Malar acquiring Venom while Talona has Poison. If we're talking about a demigod here it doesn't really matter of course, but in that case you might as well go all out and give him his old portfolio in its entirety (be it as Death or as Murder, Violence, etc.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lobotaru 10-25-07, 04:07 PM	Ok, I have a hypothetical question for anyone with knowledge on this subject. We all know that Cyric killed Bhaal at Boareskyr Bridge, causing all the Winding Waters southwind of the bridge to become tainted with his foul essence. Normally, if someone drinks the waters, they die rather quickly as it acts like a poison, but lets say someone who accidentally drank the water was miraculously made immune to the effects of the poison. Since the waters contain the tainted essence of Bhaal, would that person become a Bhaalspawn or would he be moreso "possessed" by Bhaal (since he was a possessing entity during the time of troubles) or would he become a "seed" like Iyachtu Xvim was to Bane? Oh, and one more question. Could a Bhaalspawn drink from the tainted river and live? (I'm guessing yes, but I like to hear others input).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-25-07, 06:14 PM	Actually, I think there is lore regarding what happens if someone drinks the water, and I could have sworn it isn't fatal. I don't recall what sourcebook that was in, though.
Lobotaru 10-25-07, 07:03 PM	That's wierd. You'd think a god of murder tainting a river would make the water deadly. So does anyone know what book talks about the tainted winding waters?
Old Sage 10-25-07, 07:50 PM	Actually, I think there is lore regarding what happens if someone drinks the water, and I could have sworn it isn't fatal. I don't recall what sourcebook that was in, though.Both the 2e A Grand Tour of the Realms and 3e's FRCS contain details about the unpleasant effects of the Winding Water. See the sections for the "Winding Water" in both referenced tomes.
BadCatMan 10-25-07, 08:43 PM	It used to be a poison, but 3e, it's become a day long equivalent of a curse and can support life. It seems to be diluting over the years. It's not been stated what will happen to those who drink the waters and survive, but I imagine a fair few people have tried. That the Realms isn't full of fresh Bhaalspawn, or risen Bhaal deities today probably indicates that nothing is likely to happen. Some ideas and possibilities: * Become a Spellthief - see the Class Chronicles series: "Other [Spellthieves] gain their powers... when tainted water (such as from the Winding Water) is ingested in large quantities." * Drown someone in the river as a sacrifice to Bhaal. That's got to have an effect of some kind. * There's an old portfolio of Bhaal's lying in there. If you consider that Faiths & Avatars says Bhaal had "Death (especially violent or ritual death)" and Lost Empires Of Faerun says "Assassination, Murder, Violence", and Cyric only picked up Murder (which probably includes Assassination) and Kelemvor got Death, then Violence might be in there still. * But essentially, whatever you want.
Lobotaru 10-25-07, 08:46 PM	Ah, thanks on the reference. Well, that changes my character's backstory just a bit :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-25-07, 10:33 PM	* Become a Spellthief - see the Class Chronicles series: "Other [Spellthieves] gain their powers... when tainted water (such as from the Winding Water) is ingested in large quantities." Now, that is a neat idea.
captaincarot 11-04-07, 08:20 AM	you would have to be a spell theif with one hell of a thirst to drink an entire river! but if you could pull it off while slaughtering a few people i might just let you ascend.
Kenzuki 11-28-07, 06:56 PM	I've always toyed with this idea of somehow allowing Artemis Entreri to become the new Bhaal myself.
Zireael 11-29-07, 07:54 AM	Not drown the sacrificed, but kill. Bhaal was the god of murder. And the Spellthief would be a great idea, though I doubt he'd gain enough power to become Bhaal :) but if he was a Bhaalspawn....:D :D
BadCatMan 11-29-07, 09:15 AM	Huh? Forced drowning is murder too. In fact, I'd go with the mystical three-fold death of Celtic myth, like drowning, stabbing and strangling all at once.
Zireael 12-03-07, 09:57 AM	I don't think drowning is a murder in eyes of Bhaal...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-03-07, 10:12 AM	I don't think drowning is a murder in eyes of Bhaal... Uhh...it may not be bloody, but it sure as hell is still a form of murder.
Lord Karsus 12-06-07, 01:29 PM	I don't think drowning is a murder in eyes of Bhaal... -Sure it would be. Murder is murder. And, drowning is a pretty painful way to die. Your lungs burn, as all traces of oxygen dissove from them, your heart beats faster and faster, attempting to allow oxygen-thin blood to feed oxygen-starved cells, you panic as you are keenly aware that your demise is near...
GoldDragon 12-09-07, 11:40 PM	Ok, I have a hypothetical question for anyone with knowledge on this subject. We all know that Cyric killed Bhaal at Boareskyr Bridge, causing all the Winding Waters southwind of the bridge to become tainted with his foul essence. Normally, if someone drinks the waters, they die rather quickly as it acts like a poison, but lets say someone who accidentally drank the water was miraculously made immune to the effects of the poison. Since the waters contain the tainted essence of Bhaal, would that person become a Bhaalspawn or would he be moreso "possessed" by Bhaal (since he was a possessing entity during the time of troubles) or would he become a "seed" like Iyachtu Xvim was to Bane? Oh, and one more question. Could a Bhaalspawn drink from the tainted river and live? (I'm guessing yes, but I like to hear others input). Bhaalspawn running around and causing havoc was the plot of the Baulder Gate Series for the PC and in the end you PC was pretty much the Last true Bhaalspawn standing and was asked if It wanted to take Bhaal's place, or give up the Essence of Bhaal to be locked away forever somewhere in the 7 Heavens. (Had my PC choose to have the Essence of Bhaal locked up....lol) Water wise it is mostly foul smelling of rotten fish and dark and is a ingestion poison right at the site of Bhaal's death that causes 1d6 damage followed by nausea, vomiting, and dizziness and body-aches for the next 12 hours for one potion dose worth (forgot what class poison it's considered,but remember the symptoms). This "potion" is actually can be bottled...and no, drinking more then one potion bottle worth doesn't increase damage or the length of the sickness as in is a "system shock" effect of first contact, though drinking again after the 12 hours of "healing" can cause the effect again. Further down the stream the water is still cloudy and stink but drinkable. Would be nothing other then "Avatar dust" mixing with the water in there as Ao actually stripped the gods of their portfolios before kicking their asses down so no chance of getting any of "Bhaal's powers" by drinking the water as anything he didn't give to Cyric is still "sitting on his desk"
Kenzuki 12-12-07, 02:08 PM	As I have said, Bhaal only lost the Murder Portfolio (simply Death prior to the retcon of the name) to Cyric, while his other two; Assassination and Violence are still to my knowledge unclaimed by any god. Therefore! There is really no real God of Assassins in the Realms, which is sad....
BadCatMan 12-12-07, 06:28 PM	Well, Assassination is pretty much the same as Murder. The difference is just a matter of style. I don't think there really needs to be a specific god of assassins. Most assassins and killers-for-hire would be operating under varying outlooks on life, and need not all share the same god. Some could follow Cyric, others Mask, Shar or Hoar, or indeed any god with a brutal ends-justify-the-means ethos, even some of the good ones.
Kenzuki 12-12-07, 07:00 PM	Well, Assassination is pretty much the same as Murder. The difference is just a matter of style. I don't think there really needs to be a specific god of assassins. Most assassins and killers-for-hire would be operating under varying outlooks on life, and need not all share the same god. Some could follow Cyric, others Mask, Shar or Hoar, or indeed any god with a brutal ends-justify-the-means ethos, even some of the good ones. If it's much the same why then did Bhaal have both Murder and Assassinations? Why have Mask with Thievery and Garagos with Plunder? Isn't plundering much the same as thievery?
Vasyek 12-12-07, 07:56 PM	If it's much the same why then did Bhaal have both Murder and Assassinations? Well, he didn't until they retconned him. Post-retcon, probably for the same reason that Loviatar has both Pain and Hurt as portfolios. Why have Mask with Thievery and Garagos with Plunder? Isn't plundering much the same as thievery? Garagos is a demigod. What portfolios he has in no way limit the scope of Mask's. That said, while Mask may well have a certain rapport with plunder as it is a certain brutish form of theft, I'd imagine he'd be content to let Garagos go wild with it for the most part given his preference for stealing by fraud and finesse in much the same way Tempus leaves the senseless berserker side of war to him.
Lord Karsus 12-12-07, 08:47 PM	Isn't plundering much the same as thievery? -Nope. Plunder is booty obtained via war, hostile raids, and so on. Thievery entails that is something taken by thieft. -Plunder could be considered a subtype of thievery, if you really want to link the two, but they are not the same.
Kenzuki 12-12-07, 10:09 PM	Right right. But I still think Assassination and Murder could be two seperate portfolios as while all assassination is murder not all murder is assassination.
Lord Karsus 12-12-07, 10:56 PM	Right right. But I still think Assassination and Murder could be two seperate portfolios as while all assassination is murder not all murder is assassination. -Agreed. Assassination entails some premeditation and intent, whereas murder does not.
Vasyek 12-12-07, 11:50 PM	-Agreed. Assassination entails some premeditation and intent, whereas murder does not. Depends on your definition of murder, really. At the very least, murder always requires intent: fires don't murder farmers after all, nor do wolves murder lambs. Premeditation is often strongly implied, though admittedly, killing in the throes of passion has no trouble qualifying in common parlance either. In my opinion there are limits to the viability of conceptual distinctions in portfolios. Assassination vs. Murder is basically in the same camp as Lies vs. Deception, Bad Luck vs. Misfortune, Money vs. Wealth, and Wasting vs. Decay: there are differences between them, but for the most part it's just a way of padding out the god's portfolio description. It doesn't really make much sense for them to be divided amongst different gods unless the god of the narrower instance of the broader portfolio is an estranged/formative aspect, servant, or declining/deposed rival of the other god.
Lord Karsus 12-13-07, 12:01 AM	Depends on your definition of murder, really. At the very least, murder always requires intent: fires don't murder farmers after all, nor do wolves murder lambs. Premeditation is often strongly implied, though admittedly, killing in the throes of passion has no trouble qualifying in common parlance either. -Indeed. A poor choice of words, on my part. Assassination entails a degree of premeditation and calculation, whereas murder does not necessarily involve either of those two. A mafioso hitman who wacks someone who knows too much has both of the aforementioned "traits". A botched bank robbery, resulting in the criminal shooting and killing the bank teller does not have either of the two aforementioned "traits", but yet can be found liable for murder.
Vasyek 12-13-07, 12:32 AM	A mafioso hitman who wacks someone who knows too much has both of the aforementioned "traits". A botched bank robbery, resulting in the criminal shooting and killing the bank teller does not have either of the two aforementioned "traits", but yet can be found liable for murder. For the bank robber vs. mafia hitman example, I'd argue it's more a difference in degree than a difference in kind. Barring the accidental discharge of the robber's firearm, there's a level of implicit preparation and likely conscious assessment of the advantages/disadvantages involved even if it's not their first choice on how to proceed. Similarly, if that mafioso hitman snuffs the target's daughter because she was drawn to the scene by the sound of their struggle it reflects both an underlying resolve to resort that course of action and a level of calculation related to what that action is intended to prevent. But setting that aside, I suppose I'll ask you if you'd pleasure killing or massacres to be viably distinct as portfolios as well. They seem to meet the same general criterion employed here.
Lord Karsus 12-13-07, 01:08 AM	But setting that aside, I suppose I'll ask you if you'd pleasure killing or massacres to be viably distinct as portfolios as well. They seem to meet the same general criterion employed here. -They already are seperate portfolios: Bhaal has/had 'murder', and I believe Garagos has 'slaughter'.
Vasyek 12-13-07, 01:20 AM	-They already are seperate portfolios: Bhaal has/had 'murder', and I believe Garagos has 'slaughter'. Garagos has War, Skill-at-Arms, Destruction, and Plunder. No mention of slaughter whatsoever in either Faiths & Pantheons or Powers & Pantheons. Besides, by the same criterion Slaughter is viably distinct from massacres.
Kenzuki 12-13-07, 09:19 AM	Lost Empires of Faerun says Bhaal had Murder and Assassination (as well as Violence) so I'm going by that and saying they are different enough... Interestingly enough, I noticed in the web version of the Netheril sourcebook that Shar once held the portfolio of Murder.....now how did Bhaal end up with it? I know he got (or originally got rather) the portfolio of Death from Jergal. Also Cyric has the portfolio of Strife right? If this is so why does the FRCS hlist Bane with it too?
Vasyek 12-13-07, 10:53 AM	Lost Empires of Faerun says Bhaal had Murder and Assassination (as well as Violence) so I'm going by that and saying they are different enough... Then by the same reasoning you're committed to the view that because Faith & Pantheons says that Loviatar has Pain, Hurt, and Agony, they are each different enough to represent distinct portfolios capable of being held by two or more gods. If that works for you, I guess that's ok, but it's still absolute nonsense. Interestingly enough, I noticed in the web version of the Netheril sourcebook that Shar once held the portfolio of Murder.....now how did Bhaal end up with it? I know he got (or originally got rather) the portfolio of Death from Jergal. You shouldn't expect lore that predates a retcon to explain it in any way. As far as I know it's not a question that any source since has attempted to answer. I remember hearing something about them passing Shar off as the orchestrator of Karsus' Folly in the Anauroch adventure book or something, so maybe she bit off a bit more than she could chew there and it cost her Murder (and Winter, Intrigue, Thieves/Thievery, Hatred, Lies, and Illusions.) I believe some people also theorize that Shar entrusted Jergal with a number of her portfolios or something, but that doesn't sound too reminiscent of her to me. Also Cyric has the portfolio of Strife right? If this is so why does the FRCS hlist Bane with it too? Typo. Since errata'd.
GoldDragon 12-13-07, 03:21 PM	As I have said, Bhaal only lost the Murder Portfolio (simply Death prior to the retcon of the name) to Cyric, while his other two; Assassination and Violence are still to my knowledge unclaimed by any god. Therefore! There is really no real God of Assassins in the Realms, which is sad.... Why? Doesn't take much skill or effort to kill someone for money, just the opportunity and mindset. Tell me, since there there is a god for everything or another (or so it seems,or that everyone would want), Who would be the god of the Kitchen sink?
Kenzuki 12-13-07, 08:21 PM	Hrmmmmm I'm going to go with Finder. At Loviator, well he she HAS those three portfolios.....obviously they must be different enough for her to have them right?
Vasyek 12-14-07, 12:10 PM	obviously they must be different enough for her to have them right? Sure... obviously. Nevermind that pain and hurt are bleeding synonyms, nevermind that both explicitly relate to feelings of, well, pain, they're listed separately so of course they're different portfolios. Even if you were to appeal to hurt as cause of distress/injury rather than response to distress/injury, one of the few senses in which the words hurt/pain have any differences to speak of, it really only extends the redundancy issue a hell of a lot further, as most any bad/simply unpleasant thing and some good, or at least positively regarded, things are going to count as a cause of distress/injury. Is Loviatar skimming off the top of basically every action that the evil gods in the pantheon perform to promote a portfolio in addition to the royalties she's already getting from their outcomes, as well as Ilmater's Martyrdom on the side? No way in hell that she'd be a lesser goddess if that was the case. Or maybe it has the same problems Cyric does with Strife vs. War, in which case it's functionally a nonportfolio anyway: Strife can be perpetuated in a such a way that it does not become War, but neither Hurt nor Agony can be perpetuated in such a way that they do not become Pain. By the same token there's nothing you can do with Assassination that makes it not Murder; indeed, considering that all the common themes attributed to assassination, from payment to guilds to professionalism, are by no means required to achieve its basic meaning, the distinction between it and murder is arguably even weaker than the distinction between pain and agony. Even if they are held as separate portfolios on the basis of their rather variable and essentially petty distinctions, the extent to which one god would be helpless to promote one of the portfolios without promoting the other renders the narrower/dependent one less than viable as a portfolio when held someone other than the one who reigns over its broader sibling. Bhaal with Assassination while Cyric has Murder makes about as much sense as Malar acquiring Venom while Talona has Poison. If we're talking about a demigod here it doesn't really matter of course, but in that case you might as well go all out and give him his old portfolio in its entirety (be it as Death or as Murder, Violence, etc.)