Book burning and Deneir/Oghma [Archive] - Wizards Community

Book burning and Deneir/Oghma [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Azar_of_Faerun
03-18-07, 01:18 AM Question...in our current campaign there is a noble in the city who enacted a rather random law to burn all books of arcane and divine lore...in what ways would a Cleric of Deneir and Oghma differ in confronting this injustice?
Stigger
03-18-07, 02:29 AM Probably not much to be honest... Cleric of Oghma might be a shade more confrontational, though not necessarily violent (bards and all, discredit and humiliate the bastard sort of response maybe), and the cleric of Deneir might be a shade more legalistic (digging up legal precedence and writing arguements against it), but I think the general outrage and protest would be pretty comparable and the actions taken relatively equal. Wouldn't be just them though, if the noble is burning all divine lore, you can bet the rest of the clerics are going on a rampage (some more literally than others of course) against the guy as well.
helicopter
03-18-07, 01:28 PM Deneir's entry in the 2nd Edition FR Gods book specifically has an entry about how he and his clergy would respond to such destruction of literature.

Stigger's prior post kind of sums that up nicely as well.
Old Sparky
03-18-07, 09:24 PM Some investigation should go into exactly why this law was enacted. Random? Maybe... but that seems like an awfully specific thing to do for no good reason. The clergy of Oghma should look behind the scenes at why this noble wants magical and religious lore in print form to be destroyed. Perhaps he has some kind of cult going on, or maybe he's trying to subvert the worship of various gods for some dark purpose, and destroying legitimate knowledge will help keep the locals in line with whatever other pronouncements are made.

Its also possible that the noble is just an illiterate jerk that wants to hide his shame at not being able to read.
The Ubbergeek
03-19-07, 11:15 AM Maybe he is an helmite fanatic, or some other fundamentalist follower of some very strict deity... The 'thou shall not suffer a witch and an heretic alive' kind, who eat 'heatens' for dinner. Not too Forgotten Realmesque, but that may happens.
creepy drifter
03-19-07, 12:37 PM Question...in our current campaign there is a noble in the city who enacted a rather random law to burn all books of arcane and divine lore...in what ways would a Cleric of Deneir and Oghma differ in confronting this injustice?You might want to flesh this out more a bit.

In this "city" of yours, is there both a temple of Deneir and Oghma? If so, how big and influential are they within the context of their dealings with the noble, the other government officials, and the rest of the population demographic?

Both clergies, depending upon your answers above, may have more capabilities at finding a solution to this horrible dilemma. The Faith and Avatars book covers scenarios such as this for both deities. But a lot depends upon the clergies influence.

I wouldn't be surprised either, to see this noble take action against both temples as well. Since he knows retribution is probably stewing in the secret libraries of both dwellings.
Terraneaux
03-19-07, 04:51 PM Yeah, I'm trying to figure out which churches this noble *wouldn't* be ******* off... I'd hate to be the dude who had to tell the Tempusites that they had to burn their holy books.
Alac Luin
03-19-07, 05:51 PM Yeah, I'm trying to figure out which churches this noble *wouldn't* be ******* off...

Shar, and thats about it :)
Wire
03-19-07, 06:40 PM Shar, and thats about it :)Sharran clergy would be more apt to put together an infiltration task force right after hearing of the noble's law coming into being.

Then said task force would steal as many books as possible, especially the rare ones or the ones with few duplicates.

With all that hard-to-find knowledge now under cover of a Shar coven of clerics, they would be generating more SECRETS from written knowledge that others not do not have.
The Ubbergeek
03-19-07, 08:06 PM Helmites would have no calm about destroying unlawfull and 'potentialy dangerous' texts as I noted....
bitter thorn
03-20-07, 06:43 AM Question...in our current campaign there is a noble in the city who enacted a rather random law to burn all books of arcane and divine lore...in what ways would a Cleric of Deneir and Oghma differ in confronting this injustice?

I'm not sure I would rule out violence entirely.:fight!: :duel: :fight!:
CzarGarrett
03-20-07, 01:46 PM If violence is an absolute last resort, I could see a massive exodus of books to a safe location, beyond the reach of the city's laws.
Terraneaux
03-20-07, 02:52 PM Anyone ever read A Canticle for Liebowitz? Bookleggers. Heh.

But Helmites wouldn't necessarily blindly follow a noble who claimed to have the force of law on his side. They, after all, have an investment in tomes of divine knowledge.
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man
03-20-07, 03:08 PM I think we need more information from the OP before we pontificate any more on a customized response to the book burning act.

See Creepy Drifter's post above.
Stigger
03-21-07, 12:59 AM I don't think any clerical or magely types would support the idea, given the emphasis the OP put on the word all in the post.
Azar_of_Faerun
03-21-07, 01:07 AM When I state all, I mean literally all. That's what the noble said in town square before our group just quietly waltzed away (and luckily no one would suspect an half-orc cleric, much one of Corellon, to be there)

So then that's when we met some other refugee clerics, one of Deneir, one of Oghma, in a fairly upscale bar (more like a restaurant really)

We want to formulate some sort of a plan, but are unsure who would be the least likely to resort to extreme measures.
Stigger
03-21-07, 01:21 AM I'd say they'd both be willing to resort to extreme measures to get the fellow in the dead book soonest, and to stopping the burnings from getting any farther than they have to.
Azar_of_Faerun
03-21-07, 01:25 AM But the Deneiran will likely be more level-headed? :confused:
Stigger
03-21-07, 01:41 AM Probably... not as much influence from bards as the oghmytes.
The Ubbergeek
03-21-07, 10:25 AM I don't think any clerical or magely types would support the idea, given the emphasis the OP put on the word all in the post.

You would be surprised... Why hertetical/demoniac writtings would be sparred?

By example, cyrican texts and an helmite inquisitor.
Book
03-21-07, 12:08 PM Question...in our current campaign there is a noble in the city who enacted a rather random law to burn all books of arcane and divine lore...in what ways would a Cleric of Deneir and Oghma differ in confronting this injustice?What makes you think that any competent library would have easy access to especially valuable and/or rare arcane & divine tomes?

If any Deneirites or Oghmites are in charge of such a library or catalog of lore, they surely have been trained to have contingencies planned for such acts. Especially being magical scribes and all, they probably make good use of hidden duplicate editions, spells like Secret Page & Amanuensis, obfuscating illusionary defenses, etc.

Both gods are old gods and have likely dealt with such shenanigans in the past. Making dealing with such problems part of the standard training protocol of their respective scribes and librarian caretakers.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see a well-prepared group of Oghmites/Deneirites hand over said arcane & divine lore and not make a big fuss about it. :smirk:

Then they could deal with the political wranglings needed to overturn such dictates so they could eventually trot out more copies of all those writings for easier broadscale access.
Stigger
03-22-07, 02:57 AM You would be surprised... Why hertetical/demoniac writtings would be sparred?

By example, cyrican texts and an helmite inquisitor.
Given the word ALL being used up there, the Helmites books wouldn't be spared either... no clergy or wizard would be safe from that law with the word ALL in there. Hence... none of them would support it in all likelihood.
MattBlacke
03-24-07, 12:00 AM Yeah, I can't see any of the clergies taking this lying down. Banning arcane texts? That would include spellbooks and scrolls, so that's gonna tick off the Mystrans, Azuth's followers, and every wizard in the area. IIRC, Mystran clergy make it a point to put items and texts into hiding places to ensure that magical knowledge won't be lost to accident or malice (at least, according to the entry for Mystra in Faiths and Pantheons) I could easily see Oghmans pulling similar tricks for preserving vital historical texts.
Tergiver
03-24-07, 07:44 PM If you're looking for which deity's followers are going to get less emotional about it, I'd say Oghma because he has a wider mandate. Burning all the books in the city is a direct assault on Deneir's precepts - like banning dawn would be to Lathander.

The thing about the Denerites is they're going to be just as upset at the thought of everyone else's books being burned.

Personally, I think the most likely option is that a high-level mage is going to disintegrate the noble and claim "Eh, he was a doppleganger".
BrianCritchley
03-24-07, 08:13 PM I honestly laugh at the idea of the town guard attempting to waltz into a temple to seize the books for burning.
Stigger
03-25-07, 02:11 AM Heh, true... no healing for you lot!
Craig C.
03-25-07, 03:57 PM What makes you think that any competent library would have easy access to especially valuable and/or rare arcane & divine tomes?

If any Deneirites or Oghmites are in charge of such a library or catalog of lore, they surely have been trained to have contingencies planned for such acts. Especially being magical scribes and all, they probably make good use of hidden duplicate editions, spells like Secret Page & Amanuensis, obfuscating illusionary defenses, etc.

Both gods are old gods and have likely dealt with such shenanigans in the past. Making dealing with such problems part of the standard training protocol of their respective scribes and librarian caretakers.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see a well-prepared group of Oghmites/Deneirites hand over said arcane & divine lore and not make a big fuss about it. :smirk:

Then they could deal with the political wranglings needed to overturn such dictates so they could eventually trot out more copies of all those writings for easier broadscale access.True. This post sums it up quite nicely.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Azar_of_Faerun 03-18-07, 01:18 AM	Question...in our current campaign there is a noble in the city who enacted a rather random law to burn all books of arcane and divine lore...in what ways would a Cleric of Deneir and Oghma differ in confronting this injustice?
Stigger 03-18-07, 02:29 AM	Probably not much to be honest... Cleric of Oghma might be a shade more confrontational, though not necessarily violent (bards and all, discredit and humiliate the bastard sort of response maybe), and the cleric of Deneir might be a shade more legalistic (digging up legal precedence and writing arguements against it), but I think the general outrage and protest would be pretty comparable and the actions taken relatively equal. Wouldn't be just them though, if the noble is burning all divine lore, you can bet the rest of the clerics are going on a rampage (some more literally than others of course) against the guy as well.
helicopter 03-18-07, 01:28 PM	Deneir's entry in the 2nd Edition FR Gods book specifically has an entry about how he and his clergy would respond to such destruction of literature. Stigger's prior post kind of sums that up nicely as well.
Old Sparky 03-18-07, 09:24 PM	Some investigation should go into exactly why this law was enacted. Random? Maybe... but that seems like an awfully specific thing to do for no good reason. The clergy of Oghma should look behind the scenes at why this noble wants magical and religious lore in print form to be destroyed. Perhaps he has some kind of cult going on, or maybe he's trying to subvert the worship of various gods for some dark purpose, and destroying legitimate knowledge will help keep the locals in line with whatever other pronouncements are made. Its also possible that the noble is just an illiterate jerk that wants to hide his shame at not being able to read.
The Ubbergeek 03-19-07, 11:15 AM	Maybe he is an helmite fanatic, or some other fundamentalist follower of some very strict deity... The 'thou shall not suffer a witch and an heretic alive' kind, who eat 'heatens' for dinner. Not too Forgotten Realmesque, but that may happens.
creepy drifter 03-19-07, 12:37 PM	Question...in our current campaign there is a noble in the city who enacted a rather random law to burn all books of arcane and divine lore...in what ways would a Cleric of Deneir and Oghma differ in confronting this injustice?You might want to flesh this out more a bit. In this "city" of yours, is there both a temple of Deneir and Oghma? If so, how big and influential are they within the context of their dealings with the noble, the other government officials, and the rest of the population demographic? Both clergies, depending upon your answers above, may have more capabilities at finding a solution to this horrible dilemma. The Faith and Avatars book covers scenarios such as this for both deities. But a lot depends upon the clergies influence. I wouldn't be surprised either, to see this noble take action against both temples as well. Since he knows retribution is probably stewing in the secret libraries of both dwellings.
Terraneaux 03-19-07, 04:51 PM	Yeah, I'm trying to figure out which churches this noble wouldn't be ******* off... I'd hate to be the dude who had to tell the Tempusites that they had to burn their holy books.
Alac Luin 03-19-07, 05:51 PM	Yeah, I'm trying to figure out which churches this noble wouldn't be ******* off... Shar, and thats about it :)
Wire 03-19-07, 06:40 PM	Shar, and thats about it :)Sharran clergy would be more apt to put together an infiltration task force right after hearing of the noble's law coming into being. Then said task force would steal as many books as possible, especially the rare ones or the ones with few duplicates. With all that hard-to-find knowledge now under cover of a Shar coven of clerics, they would be generating more SECRETS from written knowledge that others not do not have.
The Ubbergeek 03-19-07, 08:06 PM	Helmites would have no calm about destroying unlawfull and 'potentialy dangerous' texts as I noted....
bitter thorn 03-20-07, 06:43 AM	Question...in our current campaign there is a noble in the city who enacted a rather random law to burn all books of arcane and divine lore...in what ways would a Cleric of Deneir and Oghma differ in confronting this injustice? I'm not sure I would rule out violence entirely.:fight!: :duel: :fight!:
CzarGarrett 03-20-07, 01:46 PM	If violence is an absolute last resort, I could see a massive exodus of books to a safe location, beyond the reach of the city's laws.
Terraneaux 03-20-07, 02:52 PM	Anyone ever read A Canticle for Liebowitz? Bookleggers. Heh. But Helmites wouldn't necessarily blindly follow a noble who claimed to have the force of law on his side. They, after all, have an investment in tomes of divine knowledge.
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 03-20-07, 03:08 PM	I think we need more information from the OP before we pontificate any more on a customized response to the book burning act. See Creepy Drifter's post above.
Stigger 03-21-07, 12:59 AM	I don't think any clerical or magely types would support the idea, given the emphasis the OP put on the word all in the post.
Azar_of_Faerun 03-21-07, 01:07 AM	When I state all, I mean literally all. That's what the noble said in town square before our group just quietly waltzed away (and luckily no one would suspect an half-orc cleric, much one of Corellon, to be there) So then that's when we met some other refugee clerics, one of Deneir, one of Oghma, in a fairly upscale bar (more like a restaurant really) We want to formulate some sort of a plan, but are unsure who would be the least likely to resort to extreme measures.
Stigger 03-21-07, 01:21 AM	I'd say they'd both be willing to resort to extreme measures to get the fellow in the dead book soonest, and to stopping the burnings from getting any farther than they have to.
Azar_of_Faerun 03-21-07, 01:25 AM	But the Deneiran will likely be more level-headed? :confused:
Stigger 03-21-07, 01:41 AM	Probably... not as much influence from bards as the oghmytes.
The Ubbergeek 03-21-07, 10:25 AM	I don't think any clerical or magely types would support the idea, given the emphasis the OP put on the word all in the post. You would be surprised... Why hertetical/demoniac writtings would be sparred? By example, cyrican texts and an helmite inquisitor.
Book 03-21-07, 12:08 PM	Question...in our current campaign there is a noble in the city who enacted a rather random law to burn all books of arcane and divine lore...in what ways would a Cleric of Deneir and Oghma differ in confronting this injustice?What makes you think that any competent library would have easy access to especially valuable and/or rare arcane & divine tomes? If any Deneirites or Oghmites are in charge of such a library or catalog of lore, they surely have been trained to have contingencies planned for such acts. Especially being magical scribes and all, they probably make good use of hidden duplicate editions, spells like Secret Page & Amanuensis, obfuscating illusionary defenses, etc. Both gods are old gods and have likely dealt with such shenanigans in the past. Making dealing with such problems part of the standard training protocol of their respective scribes and librarian caretakers. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see a well-prepared group of Oghmites/Deneirites hand over said arcane & divine lore and not make a big fuss about it. :smirk: Then they could deal with the political wranglings needed to overturn such dictates so they could eventually trot out more copies of all those writings for easier broadscale access.
Stigger 03-22-07, 02:57 AM	You would be surprised... Why hertetical/demoniac writtings would be sparred? By example, cyrican texts and an helmite inquisitor. Given the word ALL being used up there, the Helmites books wouldn't be spared either... no clergy or wizard would be safe from that law with the word ALL in there. Hence... none of them would support it in all likelihood.
MattBlacke 03-24-07, 12:00 AM	Yeah, I can't see any of the clergies taking this lying down. Banning arcane texts? That would include spellbooks and scrolls, so that's gonna tick off the Mystrans, Azuth's followers, and every wizard in the area. IIRC, Mystran clergy make it a point to put items and texts into hiding places to ensure that magical knowledge won't be lost to accident or malice (at least, according to the entry for Mystra in Faiths and Pantheons) I could easily see Oghmans pulling similar tricks for preserving vital historical texts.
Tergiver 03-24-07, 07:44 PM	If you're looking for which deity's followers are going to get less emotional about it, I'd say Oghma because he has a wider mandate. Burning all the books in the city is a direct assault on Deneir's precepts - like banning dawn would be to Lathander. The thing about the Denerites is they're going to be just as upset at the thought of everyone else's books being burned. Personally, I think the most likely option is that a high-level mage is going to disintegrate the noble and claim "Eh, he was a doppleganger".
BrianCritchley 03-24-07, 08:13 PM	I honestly laugh at the idea of the town guard attempting to waltz into a temple to seize the books for burning.
Stigger 03-25-07, 02:11 AM	Heh, true... no healing for you lot!
Craig C. 03-25-07, 03:57 PM	What makes you think that any competent library would have easy access to especially valuable and/or rare arcane & divine tomes? If any Deneirites or Oghmites are in charge of such a library or catalog of lore, they surely have been trained to have contingencies planned for such acts. Especially being magical scribes and all, they probably make good use of hidden duplicate editions, spells like Secret Page & Amanuensis, obfuscating illusionary defenses, etc. Both gods are old gods and have likely dealt with such shenanigans in the past. Making dealing with such problems part of the standard training protocol of their respective scribes and librarian caretakers. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see a well-prepared group of Oghmites/Deneirites hand over said arcane & divine lore and not make a big fuss about it. :smirk: Then they could deal with the political wranglings needed to overturn such dictates so they could eventually trot out more copies of all those writings for easier broadscale access.True. This post sums it up quite nicely.