Calishite Sun God? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Calishite Sun God? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
customdrapery
04-04-07, 04:42 PM I was just glancing through "Races of Faerun" and it says under the Calishite human entry that at one point in the past the Calishites worshiped a single sun god. Who would that have been? Would that have been an aspect of Amaunator, Lathander, or Horus-Re or someone else entirely? Or was it a collection of gods? Thoughts?
Gray Richardson
04-04-07, 09:11 PM That is a really hard question to answer. Of all the ancient human pantheons, we know the least about the Calishite pantheon(s).

I think we only have 3 confirmed names of Calishite gods: Bhaelros, an aspect of Talos; Anach, a god of justice that merged with Tyr sometime after -247 DR to become Anachtyr; and Ibrandul, god of caverns and secrets.

Because Calimshan was in a separate geo-political sphere of influence from other human pantheons, they could easily have had their own sun god, separate from Amaunator. Although, Amaunator could just as easily have been multi-pantheonic, so the sun god of Calimshan may indeed have been the same sun god of Netheril.

Amaunator had the portfolios of Law and Order. It is possible that his Calishite counterpart had those portfolios as well. Hmmmm... Law and Order, might he have had justice as well? Well, if so, then it is a possibility that Anach, a god of justice was also their sun god.

Anach might have been an alias of Amaunator. Or it could also be that they were distinct entities but that they both fragmented off from a prior, even more ancient incarnation of the sun.

Of course, Jergal too is an aspect of the Sun, the aspect of Dusk. If the Calishites had a unified godhead at one point, a single sun god that combined many portfolios held by multiple deities in the current day, then this single god might have been an aspect of Jergal, or his predecessor. Perhaps from a time before the sun god split into a tripartite deity. As such he might have been both a god of the Sun and a god of the Dead, not to mention a broad spectrum of other portfolios that the Calishites might have thought useful to revere.

And, just for the sake of completeness, we can't rule out that the single sun god might have been a concept akin to the Adama that the Durpari revere. The Adama is kind of a gestalt godhead, merging 5 deities together as aspects of "The One". Perhaps this calishite god was something related or similar.

The history of Calimshan spans over 9,000 years, so no doubt their pantheon morphed and changed over time, and Races of Faerun suggests as much. I would be very much curious to know when exactly (or even approximately) that single sun god held sway and what his name might have been. I suspect that Eric Boyd or Stephen Schend or Ed Greenwood might have some clues. For now we will just have to wait for more lore to come out. Hopefully there may be some hints in the Grand History of the Realms that is due out later this year.
ericlboyd
04-06-07, 09:16 AM There's a little bit about the sun god in Empires of the Shining Sea. I'd have to go back and reread what it says before really speculating, but the Adama analog that Gray mentions might fit.

Also, I might add Savras to the Calishite pantheon, since he was originally described as the god of southern wizards. I'd have to think about that though.

--Eric
Gray Richardson
04-06-07, 07:45 PM Per Magic of Faerūn, Savras was an ascended Halruaan wizard. Which would seem to indicate a deific origin for him sometime after -339 DR. Azuth battled and imprisoned Savras before he himself ascended to godhood. Azuth probably ascended sometime around 136 DR when the 2nd magister was inaugurated. So that gives Savras a maximum reign of 474 years at most (prior to being imprisoned) though probably somewhat less.

I don't know when Halruaa came into its own after the fall. Savras would have needed some time to grow into a great wizard before ascending to godhood. And then his faith would need some time to spread to other regions beyond Halruaa, but he could definitely have entered the Calishite pantheon at some point.
Mad Mage
04-07-07, 12:28 AM Per Magic of Faerūn, Savras was an ascended Halruaan wizard. Which would seem to indicate a deific origin for him sometime after -339 DR. Azuth battled and imprisoned Savras before he himself ascended to godhood. Azuth probably ascended sometime around 136 DR when the 2nd magister was inaugurated. So that gives Azuth a maximum reign of 474 years at most (prior to being imprisoned) though probably somewhat less.

I don't know when Halruaa came into its own after the fall. Savras would have needed some time to grow into a great wizard before ascending to godhood. And then his faith would need some time to spread to other regions beyond Halruaa, but he could definitely have entered the Calishite pantheon at some point.

Just thought I'd point out the error in bold, friend. :embarrass
Gray Richardson
04-07-07, 02:18 PM Eric's tip about the Empires of the Shining Sea revealed a lot of information when I perused it this morning. We learn that worship of the "One Sun" was prominent for around 3 centuries during the Cajaan dynasty from -1708 DR to -1428 DR. The "One Sun" was likely not the actual name of this god, which we are not told, but simply an epithet, however it's the only thing the source calls him by.

Empires of the Shining Sea p.16 says that when the Cajaan rulers seized the bakkal's throne from Ylveraasahlisar the Rose Dragon they ruled as priest kings, introducing the title "pasha" and they "embraced the worship of the sun in various guises as a god of war; a deity of knowledge and the arts; a power of light, health, and vitality; and the foremost god of all the gods. While many religious scholars of today rightfully believe that this was a brief period of worship of many deities extant at the time under one alias, others cling to the belief that there was a great sun god who is now lost and forgotten."

This suggests that the "One Sun" of the Cajaan pashas was remarkably similar to the Adama. The "deity of knowledge and the arts" sounds a lot like the Durpari's Curna (aka Oghma), and the "power of light, health, and vitality" might be similar to Lucha (Selūne).

One might speculate that the Cajaan's had ties to the Golden Water and might have brought the worship of the Adama (which means "the One) to Calimshan. Although, we don't know exactly when worship of the Adama was introduced to the Durpari, it is said in the Shining South that a simple merchant began to preach of the Adama and the faith spread throughout the Durpari. It could just as easily have been the merchant that brought worship of the Adama to the Durpari from Calimshan sometime during the midst of the Cajaan dynasty.
GothicDan
04-07-07, 10:38 PM I would personally peg Lathander for more likely a deity of health, light, and vitality... But that's just me. :)
Gray Richardson
04-08-07, 04:45 AM No doubt, but the 5 major gods of the Adama included Lucha (Selūne, who is a goddess of light) and Curna (Oghma). I was merely pointing out a possible connection between the Adama of the Durpari and the "One Sun" of the Cajaans.

Lathander was more closely associated with the Talfiric pantheon in the Western Heartlands. At least, we know that a god named Lathander was worshiped in Athalantar circa 200 DR. Which doesn't necessarily mean that Lathander was not known in Calimshan. It is still possible that Lathander was known in Calimshan either by that name or by another Calishite name for him.

However, consider also that Eric Boyd has proposed the theory that the Faerūnian sun god is embodied by a tripartite sun god with aspects of dusk, dawn, and day. According to this theory, only two aspects (at most) of the Sun God can be risen at the same time; the third aspect must always be dormant--or below the horizon, so to speak. We know that both Amaunator (day) and Jergal (dusk) were ascendant in the Netherese pantheon during the time of the Cajaan dynasty. This might preclude the possibility of Lathander being risen as part of the Calishite pantheon.

Of course we don't know for sure if this rule applies to different geographic spheres of influence. Perhaps the rule is that only 2 aspects of the sun may be risen within the same pantheon. Calimshan could thus possibly had 2 different aspects of the sun risen, even though Netheril had two others. Maybe different pantheons or geographic spheres of influence are allowed to be at different points in the sun god cycles than other pantheons or geographic regions.

Or maybe that rule only applies following the Dawn Cataclysm. There is some room for hedging here, since Faiths & Pantheons says that Amaunator did not die until about 1000 years after the fall of Netheril, that would be sometime around the late 600's DR. Yet Lathander was already being worshiped in Athalantar some 4 centuries earlier. In theory, Lathander should not have been able to "rise" until Amaunator had died or "set".

Of course, I can think of 2 ways to resolve this paradox. It is possible that the Lathander worshiped in Athalantar was actually Amaunator, and that Lathander was his Talfiric alias. It could be that when Amaunator died and was later reborn as the Dawn aspect, he kept the Talfiric name.

Alternatively, it could be that Lathander "rose" in the Talfiric pantheon because the Day aspect of Amaunator had already passed on within the Talfiric sphere of influence, even though Amaunator was still hanging on in the Netherese sphere of influence. Perhaps the idea of simultaneity is as relative with regard to pantheons as it is in Einstein's relativity. Just as the sun can be set in New York, but still high in Seattle, Amaunator may have "died" at different times with respect to different cultures and geographic regions of worship.

One other consideration is that perhaps the Calishite sun god was never fragmented into 3 aspects, like it had to the north. I suppose that Calimshan could have had a unified sun god embodying all 3 aspects: dawn, day and dusk.

Ultimately it may not matter what the Cajaans believed as they only reigned for a very short period of Calimshan's history--less than 300 years. That seems like too short a time for their belief to actually reintegrate all the gods of their pantheon into a single uberdeity. I am favoring more the gestalt theory similar to the Adama wherein all the gods were worshiped by one name but were still separate entities.
GothicDan
04-08-07, 02:27 PM Perhaps the idea of simultaneity is as relative with regard to pantheons as it is in Einstein's relativity. Just as the sun can be set in New York, but still high in Seattle, Amaunator may have "died" at different times with respect to different cultures and geographic regions of worship.

But how do you apply the ideas of velocity and acceleration to such historical scenes?
Gray Richardson
04-09-07, 02:33 AM Reading the history section of Empires of the Shining Sea, one finds some interesting bits about the rulers of Coramshan from -5790 DR to -5300 DR spanning 13 dynasties and 47 bakkals (priest-rulers) who allied themselves with unknown dark gods.

Bhaelros (the Storm god of the Coramshites, now an aspect of Talos in the current day, although it is unclear if he was an aspect of Talos at the time or a separate entity that merged into Talos at a later date) is thought to be one of the dark gods, due to the lightning imagery in their courtly finery. And Shar is suspected of being one of the dark gods as well. It is thought that some of the bakkals may have had pacts with archfiends (which ones are anyone's guess) and/or other gods unknown to the modern realms save for names on a page.

This last line intrigued me because it could be an indicator of where and when the lost gods Haask, Hargut, Camnod, Tyranthrxus, Borem, and/or Maram were venerated. Not that we know for sure that all of these were gods. Some of them, Tyranthraxus especially might have been fiend lords, epic mortals, or other types of entities. But at least this clue offers us a starting point, and for anyone curious about these powers, this particular era of Calimshan's history is as good a candidate as any for placing them.
customdrapery
04-09-07, 02:22 PM Another possibility I thought of was that Lathander might not have held the portfolio of Dawn when he was worshiped in Athalantar. The reasoning for this is simply because he shouldn't really be around until after Amaunator faded to dusk and went dormant. Maybe he was, but wasn't worshiped as the god of Dawn, he would have still held the portfolios of Athletics, Self-perfection, Spring, Youth, Birth, Renewal, Vitality and Creativity (more than enough for one god, I think, though some of these seem to stem from the Dawn portfolio) then he could have acquired Dawn later by defeating and taking dawn when Amaunator was reborn.

I agree that the One Sun was probably a combination of several gods, much like the Adama, makes sense to me. I would propose Oghma, Lathander and Tempus (or a different war god) as the aspects of War, Knowledge and Creativity, but that's just me.
Gray Richardson
04-09-07, 06:54 PM That is an excellent point. It had never occurred to me before you mentioned it, but it is very possible that Lathander could have been a god of other things before acquiring the portfolio of the Dawn. That is certainly something to consider. You are very right that he could have been a god in Athalantar but have not yet come by the Dawn portfolio until much later. I suppose he could have even been given his portfolio by a dying Amaunator.

I am pretty sure the Lathander/Athalantar reference is in the Elminster Making of a Mage book. Will need to go back and check to see if Lathander is referenced simply as a deity or specifically as a god of Dawn or the Sun.
Burningspear
04-09-07, 08:24 PM pfff, i dislike this theorizing about possibilities about gods and whatnots,

Amaunator is the only real and true Sun god from the day of Netheril.

:plotting:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
customdrapery 04-04-07, 04:42 PM	I was just glancing through "Races of Faerun" and it says under the Calishite human entry that at one point in the past the Calishites worshiped a single sun god. Who would that have been? Would that have been an aspect of Amaunator, Lathander, or Horus-Re or someone else entirely? Or was it a collection of gods? Thoughts?
Gray Richardson 04-04-07, 09:11 PM	That is a really hard question to answer. Of all the ancient human pantheons, we know the least about the Calishite pantheon(s). I think we only have 3 confirmed names of Calishite gods: Bhaelros, an aspect of Talos; Anach, a god of justice that merged with Tyr sometime after -247 DR to become Anachtyr; and Ibrandul, god of caverns and secrets. Because Calimshan was in a separate geo-political sphere of influence from other human pantheons, they could easily have had their own sun god, separate from Amaunator. Although, Amaunator could just as easily have been multi-pantheonic, so the sun god of Calimshan may indeed have been the same sun god of Netheril. Amaunator had the portfolios of Law and Order. It is possible that his Calishite counterpart had those portfolios as well. Hmmmm... Law and Order, might he have had justice as well? Well, if so, then it is a possibility that Anach, a god of justice was also their sun god. Anach might have been an alias of Amaunator. Or it could also be that they were distinct entities but that they both fragmented off from a prior, even more ancient incarnation of the sun. Of course, Jergal too is an aspect of the Sun, the aspect of Dusk. If the Calishites had a unified godhead at one point, a single sun god that combined many portfolios held by multiple deities in the current day, then this single god might have been an aspect of Jergal, or his predecessor. Perhaps from a time before the sun god split into a tripartite deity. As such he might have been both a god of the Sun and a god of the Dead, not to mention a broad spectrum of other portfolios that the Calishites might have thought useful to revere. And, just for the sake of completeness, we can't rule out that the single sun god might have been a concept akin to the Adama that the Durpari revere. The Adama is kind of a gestalt godhead, merging 5 deities together as aspects of "The One". Perhaps this calishite god was something related or similar. The history of Calimshan spans over 9,000 years, so no doubt their pantheon morphed and changed over time, and Races of Faerun suggests as much. I would be very much curious to know when exactly (or even approximately) that single sun god held sway and what his name might have been. I suspect that Eric Boyd or Stephen Schend or Ed Greenwood might have some clues. For now we will just have to wait for more lore to come out. Hopefully there may be some hints in the Grand History of the Realms that is due out later this year.
ericlboyd 04-06-07, 09:16 AM	There's a little bit about the sun god in Empires of the Shining Sea. I'd have to go back and reread what it says before really speculating, but the Adama analog that Gray mentions might fit. Also, I might add Savras to the Calishite pantheon, since he was originally described as the god of southern wizards. I'd have to think about that though. --Eric
Gray Richardson 04-06-07, 07:45 PM	Per Magic of Faerūn, Savras was an ascended Halruaan wizard. Which would seem to indicate a deific origin for him sometime after -339 DR. Azuth battled and imprisoned Savras before he himself ascended to godhood. Azuth probably ascended sometime around 136 DR when the 2nd magister was inaugurated. So that gives Savras a maximum reign of 474 years at most (prior to being imprisoned) though probably somewhat less. I don't know when Halruaa came into its own after the fall. Savras would have needed some time to grow into a great wizard before ascending to godhood. And then his faith would need some time to spread to other regions beyond Halruaa, but he could definitely have entered the Calishite pantheon at some point.
Mad Mage 04-07-07, 12:28 AM	Per Magic of Faerūn, Savras was an ascended Halruaan wizard. Which would seem to indicate a deific origin for him sometime after -339 DR. Azuth battled and imprisoned Savras before he himself ascended to godhood. Azuth probably ascended sometime around 136 DR when the 2nd magister was inaugurated. So that gives Azuth a maximum reign of 474 years at most (prior to being imprisoned) though probably somewhat less. I don't know when Halruaa came into its own after the fall. Savras would have needed some time to grow into a great wizard before ascending to godhood. And then his faith would need some time to spread to other regions beyond Halruaa, but he could definitely have entered the Calishite pantheon at some point. Just thought I'd point out the error in bold, friend. :embarrass
Gray Richardson 04-07-07, 02:18 PM	Eric's tip about the Empires of the Shining Sea revealed a lot of information when I perused it this morning. We learn that worship of the "One Sun" was prominent for around 3 centuries during the Cajaan dynasty from -1708 DR to -1428 DR. The "One Sun" was likely not the actual name of this god, which we are not told, but simply an epithet, however it's the only thing the source calls him by. Empires of the Shining Sea p.16 says that when the Cajaan rulers seized the bakkal's throne from Ylveraasahlisar the Rose Dragon they ruled as priest kings, introducing the title "pasha" and they "embraced the worship of the sun in various guises as a god of war; a deity of knowledge and the arts; a power of light, health, and vitality; and the foremost god of all the gods. While many religious scholars of today rightfully believe that this was a brief period of worship of many deities extant at the time under one alias, others cling to the belief that there was a great sun god who is now lost and forgotten." This suggests that the "One Sun" of the Cajaan pashas was remarkably similar to the Adama. The "deity of knowledge and the arts" sounds a lot like the Durpari's Curna (aka Oghma), and the "power of light, health, and vitality" might be similar to Lucha (Selūne). One might speculate that the Cajaan's had ties to the Golden Water and might have brought the worship of the Adama (which means "the One) to Calimshan. Although, we don't know exactly when worship of the Adama was introduced to the Durpari, it is said in the Shining South that a simple merchant began to preach of the Adama and the faith spread throughout the Durpari. It could just as easily have been the merchant that brought worship of the Adama to the Durpari from Calimshan sometime during the midst of the Cajaan dynasty.
GothicDan 04-07-07, 10:38 PM	I would personally peg Lathander for more likely a deity of health, light, and vitality... But that's just me. :)
Gray Richardson 04-08-07, 04:45 AM	No doubt, but the 5 major gods of the Adama included Lucha (Selūne, who is a goddess of light) and Curna (Oghma). I was merely pointing out a possible connection between the Adama of the Durpari and the "One Sun" of the Cajaans. Lathander was more closely associated with the Talfiric pantheon in the Western Heartlands. At least, we know that a god named Lathander was worshiped in Athalantar circa 200 DR. Which doesn't necessarily mean that Lathander was not known in Calimshan. It is still possible that Lathander was known in Calimshan either by that name or by another Calishite name for him. However, consider also that Eric Boyd has proposed the theory that the Faerūnian sun god is embodied by a tripartite sun god with aspects of dusk, dawn, and day. According to this theory, only two aspects (at most) of the Sun God can be risen at the same time; the third aspect must always be dormant--or below the horizon, so to speak. We know that both Amaunator (day) and Jergal (dusk) were ascendant in the Netherese pantheon during the time of the Cajaan dynasty. This might preclude the possibility of Lathander being risen as part of the Calishite pantheon. Of course we don't know for sure if this rule applies to different geographic spheres of influence. Perhaps the rule is that only 2 aspects of the sun may be risen within the same pantheon. Calimshan could thus possibly had 2 different aspects of the sun risen, even though Netheril had two others. Maybe different pantheons or geographic spheres of influence are allowed to be at different points in the sun god cycles than other pantheons or geographic regions. Or maybe that rule only applies following the Dawn Cataclysm. There is some room for hedging here, since Faiths & Pantheons says that Amaunator did not die until about 1000 years after the fall of Netheril, that would be sometime around the late 600's DR. Yet Lathander was already being worshiped in Athalantar some 4 centuries earlier. In theory, Lathander should not have been able to "rise" until Amaunator had died or "set". Of course, I can think of 2 ways to resolve this paradox. It is possible that the Lathander worshiped in Athalantar was actually Amaunator, and that Lathander was his Talfiric alias. It could be that when Amaunator died and was later reborn as the Dawn aspect, he kept the Talfiric name. Alternatively, it could be that Lathander "rose" in the Talfiric pantheon because the Day aspect of Amaunator had already passed on within the Talfiric sphere of influence, even though Amaunator was still hanging on in the Netherese sphere of influence. Perhaps the idea of simultaneity is as relative with regard to pantheons as it is in Einstein's relativity. Just as the sun can be set in New York, but still high in Seattle, Amaunator may have "died" at different times with respect to different cultures and geographic regions of worship. One other consideration is that perhaps the Calishite sun god was never fragmented into 3 aspects, like it had to the north. I suppose that Calimshan could have had a unified sun god embodying all 3 aspects: dawn, day and dusk. Ultimately it may not matter what the Cajaans believed as they only reigned for a very short period of Calimshan's history--less than 300 years. That seems like too short a time for their belief to actually reintegrate all the gods of their pantheon into a single uberdeity. I am favoring more the gestalt theory similar to the Adama wherein all the gods were worshiped by one name but were still separate entities.
GothicDan 04-08-07, 02:27 PM	Perhaps the idea of simultaneity is as relative with regard to pantheons as it is in Einstein's relativity. Just as the sun can be set in New York, but still high in Seattle, Amaunator may have "died" at different times with respect to different cultures and geographic regions of worship. But how do you apply the ideas of velocity and acceleration to such historical scenes?
Gray Richardson 04-09-07, 02:33 AM	Reading the history section of Empires of the Shining Sea, one finds some interesting bits about the rulers of Coramshan from -5790 DR to -5300 DR spanning 13 dynasties and 47 bakkals (priest-rulers) who allied themselves with unknown dark gods. Bhaelros (the Storm god of the Coramshites, now an aspect of Talos in the current day, although it is unclear if he was an aspect of Talos at the time or a separate entity that merged into Talos at a later date) is thought to be one of the dark gods, due to the lightning imagery in their courtly finery. And Shar is suspected of being one of the dark gods as well. It is thought that some of the bakkals may have had pacts with archfiends (which ones are anyone's guess) and/or other gods unknown to the modern realms save for names on a page. This last line intrigued me because it could be an indicator of where and when the lost gods Haask, Hargut, Camnod, Tyranthrxus, Borem, and/or Maram were venerated. Not that we know for sure that all of these were gods. Some of them, Tyranthraxus especially might have been fiend lords, epic mortals, or other types of entities. But at least this clue offers us a starting point, and for anyone curious about these powers, this particular era of Calimshan's history is as good a candidate as any for placing them.
customdrapery 04-09-07, 02:22 PM	Another possibility I thought of was that Lathander might not have held the portfolio of Dawn when he was worshiped in Athalantar. The reasoning for this is simply because he shouldn't really be around until after Amaunator faded to dusk and went dormant. Maybe he was, but wasn't worshiped as the god of Dawn, he would have still held the portfolios of Athletics, Self-perfection, Spring, Youth, Birth, Renewal, Vitality and Creativity (more than enough for one god, I think, though some of these seem to stem from the Dawn portfolio) then he could have acquired Dawn later by defeating and taking dawn when Amaunator was reborn. I agree that the One Sun was probably a combination of several gods, much like the Adama, makes sense to me. I would propose Oghma, Lathander and Tempus (or a different war god) as the aspects of War, Knowledge and Creativity, but that's just me.
Gray Richardson 04-09-07, 06:54 PM	That is an excellent point. It had never occurred to me before you mentioned it, but it is very possible that Lathander could have been a god of other things before acquiring the portfolio of the Dawn. That is certainly something to consider. You are very right that he could have been a god in Athalantar but have not yet come by the Dawn portfolio until much later. I suppose he could have even been given his portfolio by a dying Amaunator. I am pretty sure the Lathander/Athalantar reference is in the Elminster Making of a Mage book. Will need to go back and check to see if Lathander is referenced simply as a deity or specifically as a god of Dawn or the Sun.
Burningspear 04-09-07, 08:24 PM	pfff, i dislike this theorizing about possibilities about gods and whatnots, Amaunator is the only real and true Sun god from the day of Netheril. :plotting: