Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 10:50 PM	I thought I'd share the sometimes radical differences that exist in campaign worlds versus the canon of the Forgotten Realms. This is going to, eventually, cover the whole of the gods with the most radical alterations of the deities discussed with full deity write-ups while the more modestly changed versions will only receive a paragraph or so discussing how they've been changed. I welcome comments and suggestions (like that I've missed the point of a god) but I tend to think its important to remember that every Realms-world is different from the main to a certain degree. Thanks for reading. Religion Write ups Church of the Triad (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15002146&postcount=56) The Church of the Lawbringer (Bane) (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15075952&postcount=103) The Risen Sun Heresy (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15233005&postcount=301) The Labyrinth (Leira's faith) (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15052771&postcount=67) God Write-Ups Ao (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15109054&postcount=122) Assuran (Hoar) (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15071101&postcount=90) Auppenser (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15003382&postcount=57) Asmodeus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14982682&postcount=45) Bahamut (Earth religion variant) (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15222485&postcount=298) Bel (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15716390&postcount=390) Chauntea (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15060452&postcount=80) Chronepsis (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15716852&postcount=392) Cyric (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14941724&postcount=22) Eilistraee (Mielikki) (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15218402&postcount=295) Finder-Milil (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14970523&postcount=29) Garagos (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14933802&postcount=19) Gond (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15232429&postcount=300) Graz'zt (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14987413&postcount=54) Ghaundaur (Tharizdun) (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15109273&postcount=123) The Great Old Ones (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15191155&postcount=277) Iyachtu Xvim (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14923528&postcount=2) Kelemvor (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14968348&postcount=27) Lathander (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15055196&postcount=70) Labelas Enoreth (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15189893&postcount=275) Lliira (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14974920&postcount=33) Malcanthet, Demon Queen of Succubi (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14979850&postcount=41) Malkizid (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15119083&postcount=149) Mask (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14960832&postcount=25) Moander (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14978529&postcount=38) Selune (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14982353&postcount=44) Sharess (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15077276&postcount=105) Shevarash (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15376683&postcount=361) Siamorphe (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15145715&postcount=203) Sune (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15145084&postcount=197) Talos (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15247408&postcount=320) Torm the True (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14929571&postcount=17) Ulutiu (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15019823&postcount=60) Velsharoon (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14923805&postcount=10) Wee Jas (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15047518&postcount=64) Religious Scripture Creation of the Universe/Tharizdun's War (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15108859&postcount=121) Chosen Fzoul Chembryl (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15112655&postcount=134) Lands in 616-Faerun Thay (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15135973&postcount=178) Netheril (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15135563&postcount=175) Mulhorand (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15191270&postcount=278) Races Bhaalspawn (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15112709&postcount=135) Elves (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15311718&postcount=349) Fey'ri (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15128242&postcount=163) Orcs (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15287246&postcount=330) Miscellaneous Afterlife in 616 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15242908&postcount=314) The Balance of Good and Evil in the Realms (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15178667&postcount=264) Deeds of 616's PCs (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15137716&postcount=187) Faith in the Realms (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15278541&postcount=329) Levels/Classes/NPCs in the Realms (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15155514&postcount=212) Non-Canon Books (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15308360&postcount=337) The Role of Gods in the Realms (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15155587&postcount=213)
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 10:52 PM	Iyachtu Xvim (The Godson, The Shining Lord, The Beginning and the End, The Purifier, The Seraph of Cleansing, The Morningstar) Lesser Power of The Nine Hells Portfolio: Bigotry, Genocide, Fanatacism, Hypocrisy, Self-Righteousness, Pride, Persecution (his church teaches that he possesses the Portfolio of Purity, Perfection, and Righteousness) Aliases: Triel Alignment: Lawful Evil Superior: Bane Allies: Bane (formerly Myrkul and Bane) Foes: Oghma, Mask, Monster Deities, Mask Symbol: A pair of green glowing eyes peering out of darkness, an angelic figure with bright emerald skin. Domains: Charm, Evil, Law, Destruction Worshipper's Alignment: LN, N, CN, LE, NE, CE Iyachtu Xvim (Ee-YAK-Too ZVIHM) is not the typical evil deity that exists across the Forgotten Realms. His priests wear white robes, are predominantly of 'goodly' races, and preach a doctrine of humility as well as piety before their public shrines. Unfortunately, the truth of Xvim's clergy is in their deeds rather than their appearance. The Church of Xvim fosters a creed of hatred and brutality along with unjustified pride in one's own superiority. It ignores boundaries and spreads its faith as far as Maztica with no corner of Faerun safe from the Purifier's will. Xvim's preferred form is that of a glorious green skinned angel with emerald eyes. The figure's light is a sickly shade but possesses a hypnotic Charming effect on all those who view it. Xvim is arrogant but charismatic with his voice possessing a silky quality that allows him to reach right into the heart of his listeners. He will often read the minds of listeners in order to know what they want to hear. History and Relationships: Iyachtu Xvim is the child of Bane the Tyrant with a Archon of Mount Celestia. How such a twisted and debased union came to pass is anyone's guess but the fact was that the figure was raised in the Seven Heavens as the individuals of that realm attempted to control the corrosive influence of his father's blood. Unfortunately, their efforts proved insufficent and Iyachtu Xvim fell to the Nine Hells with a group of his followers after stealing some of Tyr's divine essence. Iyachtu Xvim now spreads his faith in the shadow of the Tyrants of Bane while working to spread his influence beyond the reaches his father's faith. The Purifiers of Xvim are well versed in playing to their enemies crowds and know well to target those whom are unliked in the regions they find themselves in. They are not above using kindness as a tool with healings and charity designed merely to build up support for their own deeds. Many otherwise good citizens have been swept up in the evil spell of Xvim. Xvim was, briefly, thought destroyed when his father was resurrected but merely lost most of his power. While no longer able to manage the once great portfolios that he had, the Tyrant's son has since focused on rebuilding what he once lost and it is likely he'll soon return to Intermediate God status. Bane tolerates his son's activities but is, nevertheless, surprised that he managed to survive his resurrection. Torm despises Xvim even more than Bane for all the corruption of good that he performs. The two gods are arch-enemies with Xvim believing that he can seize the faithful of Torm if the former god is slain. Oghma dislikes Xvim's constant warping of the truth and does his best to set the record straight about the clergy's habits. Many Monster deities dislike Xvim for the constant harrassment their followers recieve from the impudent human god. Likewise, thieves are often caught up in Xvim's clergy's attempts to generate fervor to Mask's distaste. Dogma: The faithful of Xvim are an elect that are above all other petty mortals by virtue of their god's love. Beautiful and perfect races are the ones who deserve to live while those who are unrighteous or malformed should be either driven away, enslaved, or destroyed. The salvation of the soul from darkness warrants any real method to do so with conversion by sword point for their own good. The clergy of Xvim are encouraged to work to the benefit of the governments of a region and encourage patriotism unless it becomes clear that they are unable to enforce the peace, when new patrons should be found.
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 10:53 PM	Charles' Takes on the Gods Part One Bane I use Bane as my blanket Sauron figure in the Forgotten Realms. I give him the "Burning Eye" as his seal and large armies of Orcs that the Zhents have managed to recruit from Thar for their armies. I tend to give Bane's clergy and the service of the Zhents a vaguely Fascist feel. Hobgoblins in my Realms tend to view Bane as their patron deity. Bane is very much an industrial god and I have the Neutrality of Gond revealed in that a lot of his priests end up in Bane's service developing new technologies and weapons on the fields of war. The average city controlled by Banites is a depressed, broken, and gray place with very little color plus a lot of pollution from the constant churn of the Forge's fires. Cyric Cyric is a much more craftier figure here than he is in the Realms and very much of the "Evil Trickster" mold. Cyric takes a genuine delight in sending adventurers on wild goose chases, setting up false prophecies, and having his clergy impersonate the religions of others in order to spread misapprehension or fear. Cyric is still a bit of a dunce and can out-think himself but his religion is actually fairly wide spread. The Church of Cyric is honestly less interested in getting people to sincerely embrace the cause of evil than just getting butts in their seats. The human sacrifice is usually conducted with kidnappings and in secret places to avoid drawing down the attention of the authorities. Cyric maintains a large selection of ritualized killers who eliminate enemies of his faithful. It's a lot less "playing sects against one another" and all that nonsense ended when Cyric was cured of his madness. Helm In my game, Helm is from the same pantheon as Tyr and Tempus. Like Tyr, however, he's changed a great deal from his Nordic origins. Helm is, primarily, in my Realms focused on the steadfastness of the Watch with none of the "convert by the sword" Maztica nonsense or the attack on the Moonshaes business that occurred in Realms fiction. Helm is a follower but has no truck or allegiance with the forces of darkness. Conversely, this means that Helm's Knights tend to take an almost Knight Templar Proto-Role as Bankers in the Realms. They don't infest the money, which falls to Waukeen's clergy, but serve as its guardians even in her Temples. The Helm knighthood is that unbesmirchable in its reputation. The Holy Triad The Triad is, fairly explicitly, the Catholic Church's analogue in my Forgotten Realms. The symbol for Tyr is a stylized double headed Hammer that's hung from around one's neck with an extended top. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the analogues either. I have the Triad filling the place of the Trinity with most prayers ending "In the name of The Judge, the Knight, and the Blessed Martyr." The Triad is a somewhat idealised version of the Catholic Church with none of the secretarian conflicts of its past or burning people for heresy. Nevertheless, it's one of the largest religions in the North and along the Sword Coast. Red Knight While I really liked the connection with Tempus, in this game, The Red Knight is actually elevated to Godhood by Helm rather than the War God. However, she's still allied with Tempus. Furthermore, it's more explicit that she and Torm are consorts despite their occasionally dueling roles. When Helm dies in the future of my campaign, Red Knight will absorb most of his portfolios. Sune It's a fact that in my Realms that Sune is one of the most widely worshiped goddesses; few beings have any comprehension of just *HOW* widely worshipped she is, however. In my games, Hanelli is actually the elven name for Sune whom is one of the older powers of the Cosmos along with Moradin and Corellon. She's also the goddesses Ishtar and Inanna. The 'competition' between her various clergies is something she actively encourages with many of her faithful not aware their goddess has multiple faces even after death. Talos Talos is slightly more worshiped in my Realms than he is in Realms-canon. In addition to those who pray to Talos to advert storms and other natural disasters, Talos has a substantial following amongst Barbarians. Those interested in loot and pillage plus darker sports tend to look to Talos for the fulillment of their basest impulses. Talos has stolen worshipers from Giants, Gnolls, Orcs, and other brutal species. Talos is also a creature more about Chaos than evil, it's just the things that he does tend to be evil. Tempus Tempus is more or less the god Thor after a few hundred generations after Ragnarok was post-poned. Tempus lost the role of Rain to Talos but still maintains his protective role to most Barbarian peoples along with the Rashemi men. He is a god that's prone to ridiculous feats of violence and brutality but is still a "hero" god for the most part. Unfortunately, heroism means accomplishing great deeds much more than serving the cause of good. He is known to frequently appear in the mortal realms and father children as well.
XHereticX 01-25-08, 10:55 PM	Hmm, reminds me of Zarus, but it is an interesting take on the deity.
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 11:00 PM	Hmm, reminds me of Zarus, but it is an interesting take on the deity. Honestly, I worried I went a little too far in the other direction to make Bane distinct from the rest of the Dark Triad. Nevertheless, there's something to be said about evil self-righteous priests that believe they're good without the typical problems that come from "Why does the deity allow this?" And oddly, I didn't know about Zarus until you mentioned him. I may have to get that book sometime
XHereticX 01-25-08, 11:03 PM	Honestly, I worried I went a little too far in the other direction to make Bane distinct from the rest of the Dark Triad. Nevertheless, there's something to be said about evil self-righteous priests that believe they're good without the typical problems that come from "Why does the deity allow this?" And oddly, I didn't know about Zarus until you mentioned him. I may have to get that book sometime Are you bringing back Myrkul and Bhaal?:) I think the three as an Unholy Triad to opposed the Holy Triad would be cool.
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 11:12 PM	Are you bringing back Myrkul and Bhaal?:) I think the three as an Unholy Triad to opposed the Holy Triad would be cool. I use the Bhaalspawn plot rather prominently in my campaigns, so Bhaal is remaining quite dead for the time being. However, I do like the idea of a Dark Triad of deities centered around Bane. Thus, Myrkul's place has been taken by the "New and Improved" Velsharoon that's my next entry to describe and Garagos (though he has recently 'died' in my campaign where I'm not sure whether to make it stick or not).
GreenKnight 01-25-08, 11:18 PM	I use the Bhaalspawn plot rather prominently in my campaigns, so Bhaal is remaining quite dead for the time being. However, I do like the idea of a Dark Triad of deities centered around Bane. I'm hoping we'll see something similar in the 4E Realms, myself, albeit with Bane, Tiamat, and either Loviatar or Bhaal. Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal seem somewhat obvious, but I prefer Myrkul as the lord of his own corner of the universe, and occasionally allying with Bane, rather then being subservient to Bane.
XHereticX 01-25-08, 11:22 PM	I use the Bhaalspawn plot rather prominently in my campaigns, so Bhaal is remaining quite dead for the time being. However, I do like the idea of a Dark Triad of deities centered around Bane. Thus, Myrkul's place has been taken by the "New and Improved" Velsharoon that's my next entry to describe and Garagos (though he has recently 'died' in my campaign where I'm not sure whether to make it stick or not). Hmm, another possibility is to bring back a few of the Lost Gods and have them serve as agents of Bane. The whole Bane as the Dark Lord of Faerun idea is one that I like, and the possibilities of Banite cults that are deluded in their belief that their god is actually "good" provides great possibilities. Hmm, I think the Unholy Triad should be Bane, Xvim, and Asmodeus.(and maybe Tiamat)
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 11:41 PM	Velsharoon (The Dreadmaster, The Undying, The Revancer, The Witch King of Faerun) Lesser God of The Negative Material Plane Portfolio: Arcane Secrets, Betrayal, Grave Robbery, Evil Magic, Necromancy, Undeath, Undead Alignment: Neutral Evil Aliases: Mellifleur, Kiaransalee (Special), Myrkul (Special), Nergal, Vec'na, Orcus (Special), Zhengyi Superior: Bane Allies: Bane, Shar, Oghma, Talona, Talos Enemies: Azuth, Lathander, Kelemvor, Mystra Symbol: The Crown of Horns over a Glowing Eyed Skull Domains: Death, Evil, Magic, Undeath Worshiper's Alignment: N, LE, NE, CE Velsharoon was once a minor god but few in the Realms do not know of the Witch King's ranks anymore. Velsharoon has successfully obscured his origins enough that few remember the rival of Ssass Tam but instead wonder if he is Karsus, Larloch, the former ruler of Damara, or any number of other ancient horrors that might yet have returned to bedevil the whole of Faerun. Velsharoon prefers to assume the appearance of a monstrous Lich in jeweled Thayan robes with the Crown of Horns resting comfortably on his head. The Lich lacks both an eye and his right arm from where Kelemvor attempted to slay him that has yet to heal. When he wishes to be less intimidating to new recruits, Velsharoon assumes a less intimidating appearance of an old and wizened man of intedeterminate ancestry. History and Relationships: Velsharoon (pronounced VEL-shah-roon) was long considered something of a joke as his constant scheming and betrayal was viewed to be something that would soon get him squashed like a bug by the more powerful members of the pantheon. In truth, everyone was shocked when Velsharoon proved that the 'transparent' scheming of the Red Wizards of Thay was actually hiding a much larger array of plans that allowed him to seize enough divine power that his place amongst the Pantheon was assured.... He is the party responsible for the resurrection of Bane. While Bane is not noted for his gratitude, the Tyrant recognized that he was in bad need of allies and the Revanancer was just the sort of magical toadey that he felt would be useful. Velsharoon lost the patronage of Mystra in this act but he's solidifed his position against those greater gods allied against him. Velsharoon has no intention of being lackey to Bane forever but already his power has grown leaps and bounds beyond what anyone thought he'd achieve. It will be very soon that he achieves the rank of Intermediate God. Known schemes of Velsharoon that have suceeded are; recovering the Crown of Horns and seizing Myrkul's divine essence inside (the former god still lives as a seperate personality in the back of the god's head, advising him), allying with The Dark Maiden of all people to eliminate Kiaransalee before seizing her undead worshipers for himself, and making a deal with the weakened Demon Lord Orcus to supply his clergy with spells while soaking up the monstrous god's worship for himself. Lathander and Kelemvor have both a utter loathing for Velsharoon whom has brought back the worst of Myrkul's excesses. Mystra and Azuth have, furthermore, no love for his betrayal or seizing the role of God of Evil Magic. Shar has allowed his followers to tap into the Shadow Weave without worshiping him, even though both know the other is no ally to be trusted. Strangely, Velsharoon maintains pleasant ties with Oghma as the neutrality of the god is respected along with their mutual love of knowledge. Both Talona and Talos have found their love of destruction glutted by the man's wicked ways. Dogma: Seek knowledge at all costs for it and power are one in the same. Ethics are merely tools for the simple minded while the power of magic transcends such things. Immortality, pleasure, and god-like will to shape the cosmos are all things that Velsharoon will aid you in acquiring if you placate him. Be aware that lesser beings will often not be as intelligent as you but do not submit to their petty ideals.
XHereticX 01-25-08, 11:45 PM	I like!!! But I would not use Velsharoon's name, I just have absolutly no respect for the guy. A turncoat and a coward.
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 11:47 PM	I like!!! But I would not use Velsharoon's name, I just have absolutly no respect for the guy. A turncoat and a coward. Yeah, well that's Velsharoon in a nutshell. When Bane is going to be at his weakest, Vel will slip in the dagger to the back before trying to seize Sigil and destroy the cosmos in Die, Velsharoon, Die! What do you expect from the god of Betrayal?
XHereticX 01-25-08, 11:52 PM	Yeah, well that's Velsharoon in a nutshell. When Bane is going to be at his weakest, Vel will slip in the dagger to the back before trying to seize Sigil and destroy the cosmos in Die, Velsharoon, Die! What do you expect from the god of Betrayal? Personally I would have either Bhaal or Myrkul (I can't imagine that either of them are very happy with Bane and would just love to stab him in the back) take his place but still retain the same characteristics that you have penned down. Or even have Vecna do a little interloping:P Just no Velsharoon please, that name itself brings an aura of foolishness to the being.
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 12:25 AM	I'm hoping we'll see something similar in the 4E Realms, myself, albeit with Bane, Tiamat, and either Loviatar or Bhaal. Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal seem somewhat obvious, but I prefer Myrkul as the lord of his own corner of the universe, and occasionally allying with Bane, rather then being subservient to Bane. I have Tiamat play a much larger role in the Realms (and properly has resumed her place as a Greater Goddess along with Bahamut). Honestly, I just can't see her sharing the throne with Bane. Honestly, I just chose Garagos because it rounds out a LE, NE, CE Dark Triad (G is that in my realms). Hmm, I think the Unholy Triad should be Bane, Xvim, and Asmodeus.(and maybe Tiamat) I'll have to do my description of the Lords of the Nine and the Demon Lord's roles in the campaign setting. Basically, I finally managed to satisfactorially create roles for them that exist as "ultimate evils" in a setting already with its own gods.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 12:27 AM	Hmm, what are your roles for Merreshaulk and Set? (and the conflict between them)
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 12:43 AM	Seth Actually, I know players are somewhat tired of Set the Snake God. After Robert Howard, John Milinus' Conan, and God knows how many other rip offs; it's difficult to take Set as seriously as one might. In my Forgotten Realms, I tend to represent Set's cults with Jackals and Crocodiles as much as I do Serpents. Recently; in my Mulhorandi, the Setites finally achieved their ancient aim and assassinated the Pharoah of Mulhorandi before seizing control of the country. This was to bring Mulhorand in line with the view that Ed Greenwood always had of the nation. It's elevated Set to a Greater God and they're currently tyrannical forces controlling much of Mulhrandi as well as Unther. Furthermore, Set is actually one of the more widely worshiped gods in my version of Thay. While the Thayans naturally are inclined to atheism, very few of them really will give up any advantage they can get and there's cults to many other gods other than Kossuth that remains one of my private deities. Merrshaulk Probably to your disappointment, Merrshaulk actually doesn't exist in my campaigns. The Yuan-Ti do get spells and believe in their Snake God but their origins lie slowly in the corruption of the original Creator Race attempting to survive by mixing their blood with humans. Instead, what they worship is actually a corrupted version of the legends of Dendar the Night Serpent. Dendar finds the whole thing rather amusing but doesn't find the idea of being worshiped intriguing enough not to devout the Yuan-Ti race when she awakens from the darkness. Some Yuan Ti-do, however, worship Set that have moved away from coast towards the old Empire. Set hopes to lure them all away to increase the blood of his union but is currently breeding them mostly with his priests. He's also wary of awakening Dendar's wrath (or as he calls her, Apep).
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 06:12 PM	Torm (The True, The Pure Knight, The Deliverer, The Archon of the Gods) Greater God of Mount Celestia Portfolio: Defense, Duty, Honor, Leadership, Loyalty, Righteousness, The Truth Alignment: Lawful Good Aliases: Galahas, Heironeous, Kiri-Jolith, Lawrence Superior: Tyr (formerly) Allies: Bahamut, Tyr, Helm (formerly), Ilmater, Lathander, Nobanion, Red Knight Enemies: Bane, Cyric, Garagos, Loviatar, Shar, Talos, Talona, Tiamat, Velsharoon, Xvim Symbol: A bright flaming sword, a glowing eye on a gauntlet Domains: Good, Healing, Law, Protection, Strength Worshiper's Alignment: LG, NG, CG, LN, N The Death of Helm at the hands of Cyric's treachery, which all of the gods of the Triad recognize as the true source of the terrible loss of one of their brethren, resulted in the gods portfolio being divided up amongst Torm and Red Knight. Tyr, in grief over having to destroy his longtime friend, proceeds to give up his dominion over leadership to trasform Torm into one of his equals amongst the ranks of the Triad. Torm is still adjusting to no longer being the fist of Tyr but an equal arm of the Triad that holds dominion over the majority of the military forces of Mount Celestia. Not all of Torm's decisions are good ones, as he's won't to ere on the side of honor than practicality unlike Tyr, but his handling of his new power is far better than many would have guessed it to be. Torm tends to appear in the form of a Shining Gold Dragon, a Great Glorious Lion, or a grandious knight riding on the back of either. Torm has largely disregarded his former avatar of a gauntlet due to the painful memories of fallen Helm that it still brings up. History and Relationships: Torm is a former paladin of Tyr that was elevated by that divinity to the status of Demigod during the early years of the faith on Toril. Torm, despite his centuries of existence, still maintains the bright eyed enthusiasm of the young man that he was when he died battling evil for the faith. Torm is slightly brash, headstrong, and reckless due to his desire to fight the good fight at any costs. Torm has wrongly been accused of being naive but this is mostly due to the fact that he refuses to submit to the world-weariness that his master long ago succumbed to. To Torm, the ways of good and evil are as clearly drawn as they were when he first was ascended into the Heavens. To seal an alliance between Tempus and Tyr, Torm recently wed Red Knight as both of them were perfectly willing to. Torm dislikes his bride's love of war for its own sake even as she is frequently the voice of bemusement at his belief that one side should be just when most could less about idealism on the battlefield. Nevertheless, the two are strong allies against the forces of evil since her absorbtion of the rest of Helm's portfolio. Torm still views Tyr as a father figure and mentor despite the fact that he's ascended to an even higher rank in most respects than his former deity. Torm's relationship with Ilmater is somewhat more cool as while he respects the Healer tremendously, he would prefer a world without suffering. The newly ascended Torm has recently brought Nobanion into the House of the Triad and allied with Bahamut the Platnium Dragon. Nobanion acknowledges Torm as his Superior while Bahamut has been nurturing Torm's leadership abilities with a viewpoint somewhat different than Tyrs. Lathander and Torm have also made firm alliance against the forces of Evil. Tyr and he had never been able to reconcile their differences but Torm finds the Morninglord and he to have far more in common than not. This alliance bodes tremendously ill for the forces of darkness as The True has effectively created a force of good that the Realms has never yet seen. Torm is against all the gods of evil in the Realms but has formally declared his enimity to both Bane and Cyric above all others. Bane considers Torm to be his foremost foe, having ceased viewing him as Torm's lackey and now as a chief rival. Cyric, on the other hand, was caught off-guard by Torm's ascension and it was The True that defeated the Dark Sun before he was chained to the bottom of the Abyss. Shar believes Torm to be far more dangerous than even he realizes and hopes to snuff him before he grows stronger still. Dogma: Be brave, honest, forthright, stalwart, and true. Remember that those who snicker at the righteous and make mockery of your virtue are individuals who don't have the belly for the kind of life you'd live. Don't shy away from uncomfortable truths or submit to the belief that good can stand toe to toe against evil. The Light is stronger than the Darkness and obliterates it wherever it can be. Protecting the lives of the innocent is even more important than punishing the guilty. Remember, mercy is something that shouldn't be forgotten when a foe might have the chance of redeeming himself. Inspire others with your deeds.
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 06:58 PM	Ilmater Ilmater is in Faerun; explicitly the God of Mercy, Healing (which he shares with Selune), and Fortitude in addition to Suffering. This helps justify to me the Greater God status that he enjoys. Ilmater's Clergy aren't just composed of Lepers and people who are interested in martyring themselves but anyone who wants to enjoy the benefits of having their various diseases or ailments healed. He's pretty much worshiped by the majority of those poor huddled masses in the streets and impoverished serfs of the land. In light of this, I also altered Ilmater's Foe List slightly. Talona is as much Ilmater's foe as Talona and he was the enemy of Bhaal in the Triad. Just as Tyr was the enemy of Myrkul, Torm the enemy of Bane, Ilmater was the eternal foe of Bhaal. Lathander It's my statement that Lathander is the former Netherese God of the Sun Reborn (who was LG rather than LN in my campaigns until the end of Netheril when he fell from grace). He's still physically the embodiment of the Sun and Light in Abber-Toril as well. However, the transformation from his previous self into Lathander has loosened him up considerably with the message of Lathander being "loosen up and be happy" while Amaunator was "obey or I'll spank you." The Risen Sun heresy is explicitly LN and LE in my campaigns as well. It's an attempt by Cyric and Xvim to corrupt Lathander's worship. In the end, Xvim hopes to either seize Lathander's worship for himelf or force Lathander to divorce himself from his faithful to become a lesser god. The possibility of him becoming Amaunator again is something that none of his allies would tolerate since that phase of him was hated. Lathander is the God of Resurrection and adopts some Jesus-like attitudes (specifically the laid back take to scripture). This is because Lathander rose from Amaunator's corpse. Mask I add an explicit origin for Mask here, in that he's actually the Drow God of Thieves; Vhaeraun. He's definitely an Intermediate God verging on Greater and manages to return from "death" soon after Eli's plot to kill Lolth fails in my game (Mask, of course, never vanished). Basically, was the idea that Vhaeraun noticed that he lacked a substantial power base compared to Lolth and decided to start recruiting human worshipers. Thus, he destroyed the Netherese God of Thieves by (literally) stealing his portfolio and leaving him to literally wither away. I also make it a point that Mask is evil but not EVIL. Mask is a murderer and a man with no respect for life but he's not a MONSTER like some of the evil gods. He'd be Chaotic Neutral were he not fine with slitting people's throats. I also provide him with a great deal of panache and Drow bon vivante attitudes. I'm debating ascending him to Greater God status in my current games by having him steal Assassination, Assassins, Lies, and Illusion from Cyric. Selune Selune is likely to take Mystra's place as Goddess of Magic for the time being but she's already a Greater Goddess in my campaign. In addition to being Goddess of the Moon Stars, she's also the Goddess of Enlightenment, Hope, and Healing (which she shares with Ilmater). I'm also fairly explicit about the fact that Selune's version of history is true and that she is THE moon while Chauntaea is the sum of Abber-Toril. I never quite managed to reconcile Sehaine Moonbow into this mythology, however.
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 05:03 AM	Oh, those who wanted my Bhaal analogue can look here now. Garagos (The Reaver, Lord of Murder, Master of Rage, The Six-Armed Nightmare, Targus) Intermediate God of The Abyss Portfolio: Berserkers, Horror, Massacre, Monsters, Pillage, Rage, Rapine, Slaughter Alignment: Chaotic Evil Aliases: Bhaal Superior: Bane Allies: Bane, Talos, Loviatar, Talona, Velsharoon, Xvim Enemies: Cyric, Ilmater, Kelemvor, Tempus, Torm, Sune, Red Knight Symbol: Six Arms wielding swords in a circle. Domains: Chaos, Destruction, Madness, War Worshiper's Alignment: CN, LE, NE, CE Garagos (GAH-rah-gohs) is a figure that once was worshiped by many who preferred the wild and unpredictable ways of war to the half-hearted heroism that Tempus followed. Now, most of Garagos' old followers have abandoned him as his current state is such a depraved and monstrous thing that only the vile immoral scum choose to wretched thing that has crawled its way out of the Abyss. Garagos used to appear solely as a six armed warrior wading across battlefields. Recently, he has begun appearing as a vareity of bizarre monsters when not showing up as a much more intelligent figure that dresses well in a fashion that seems utterly at odds with his psychotic portfolio. History and Relationships: Garagos long resented the sharing of his portfolio with Tempus and sought a way to escape the shadow of his master. The opportunity came when Bane was resurrected and offered to aid Garagos in gaining his long sought revenge if he would turn over the elements of War that appealed to Bane like Conquest. Garagos agreed and Bane lead his new ally to the River where Bhaal died. There, Garagos gorged himself on the fragments of Bhaal's personality that were still entrusted there. Garagos proceeded to seize the vilest war crimes and excess as his portfolio while appearing to many as the god Bhaal resurrected. His current crop of worshipers are mostly formed from roving assassins, bandit gangs, depraved barbarians, monsters, pirates, and serial killers. He is less interested in the actual crop of his worshipers than making sure that the entirety of the Realms knows and prays that he never visits his wroth upon them. Bizarrely, despite assuming the portfolio of the most heinous destructive impulses in man, Garagos has started to grow smarter and more cunning since drinking down the essence of the late Bhaal. He is focused in slowly undermining the religion of Cyric and eventually hopes to seize the Portfolio of Murder from him. He also hopes to eventually make his presence so synonomous with War and Death that they will both ascede to him. Garagos dreams big now and believes he might someday assume the portfolios of even Talos to become the most powerful God in all the Realms. This boundless ambition does not yet worry Bane, whom considers Garagos an easily manipulated imbecile. The fact that this is no longer the case and he lacks Bhaal's former devotion is something that has seemingly not yet occurred to Bane. Both Loviatar and Xvim despite Garagos for various reasons but have grudgingly agreed to work with him so long as they are all under the dominion of Bane. Bizarrely, Velsharoon and he get along the best as the two recognize they are plotting against the whole of the rest of the gods. Talos likes Garagos' style but is starting to get vexed with the god's new naked ambition. Torm and Red Knight have both decided to destroy Garagos for the Greater Good of Faerun. Red Knight can feel the unholy corruption that Garagos brings to any conflict and the excesses are driving her mad. Cyric and Kelemvor have an enimity for them but the former would more like to win Garagos over to his side than destroy him (at least until he can subsume the god's portfolios). Tempus is glad that he no longer has to share war with the god but nominally supports Red Knight's desire to destroy him. Both Ilmater and Sune are incensed about the creature's depravities across the land. Dogma: There is nothing more beautiful than unchecked butchery on the battlefield. Murder and Destruction are arts to be cultivated with the most terrible acts providing a power over those mortal minds too fragile to deal with them. Garagos will provide you the strength to seize power, wealth, and slaves so long as you provide him with the lives he demands in homage. Show no one is beyond the reach of Garagos and his many hands.
XHereticX 01-27-08, 10:01 AM	Hmm, a new and improved version of Erythnul...I like!!! You have an ability to take boring and dumb gods and turn them into major players in the cosmic scene, I am impressed.
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 10:28 PM	Hmm, a new and improved version of Erythnul...I like!!! You have an ability to take boring and dumb gods and turn them into major players in the cosmic scene, I am impressed. Thanks, Garagos always seemed a bit more limited than he should be. I thought of about a straight Chaotic Evil Adaptation but that seemed a bit limiting as well. Instead, I decided to give him a brain while seeing where that takes me. I wonder if I'm missing any of Bhaal or other popular deities qualities with him. The Gods that are majorly changed in my Realms are as follows * Azuth ---- LN Intermediate God of The Arcane, Intrigue, Spellcraft, Wizards, Sorcerers * Cyric----NE Intermediate God of Deception, Humor, Illusion, Murder, and Strife. * Deneir (Cadderly) ---- N Lesser God of Education, Mathmatics, Science, Thought, and Writing. * Eldath - NG Intermediate Goddess of Fate, Peace, and Wisdom. * Finder-Milil ---- NG Lesser God of Adventurers, Bards, Harpers, Music, Song * Gargauth----- LE Demigod of Corruption, Devils, Demons, and the End of the World * Ghaundaur (Avatar of the Overgod Tharizdun) ----- CE Greater God of Madness, Nightmare, and The Unspeakable * Kelemvor----LN Greater God of Death, The Underworld, Sacrifice, Struggle, and Retribution. * Llirra---- CG Lesser Goddess of Dancing, Freedom, Happiness, and Swordmanship * Red Knight ---- LN Intermediate Goddess of Guardianship, Watchfulness, Strategy, Tactics, Nationalism. Anyone who has any requests about wanting to see any one of these or specific write-ups of other gods, I'm happy to share my views on. I mostly change the emphasis on the gods rather than actually outright the whole thing. A lot of this happened in the wake of 4E. I'm still debating whose the Patron of Sorcerers after I'm making Ilmater and Selune both Patrons of Monks (the later being an odd choice but she IS goddess of enlightenment)
Charles Phipps 01-28-08, 02:59 AM	Cyric (Prince of Chaos, The Jester of Sorrow, The Dark Sun, The Black Sun, The Tormented One) Intermediate God of Pandemonium (Presently Carceri) Portfolio: Deception, Humor, Illusion, Murder, and Strife. Alignment: Neutral Evil Aliases: Kaelfka (worshiped as a CE Deity), Kobul (worshiped as a LE Deity), Loki (CN & CE churches), Nadirech (worshiped as a NE deity), Rallaster (worshiped as a NE deity), Zagyg (worshiped as a CN deity) Superior: None Allies: None Enemies: All the Gods Symbol: A Dark Sun Disc, Increasingly a Skull Covered by a Jester's Hat Domains: Chaos, Evil, Madness, Illusion Worshiper's Alignment: N, CN, LE, NE, CE Cyric (seer-ick) is a deity that most of Faerun has forgotten in the past one hundred years as a concrete force in the Realms. The church is almost universally outlawed, even in religously tolerant cities like Silverymoon, and there are a number of individuals who believe the god's faith is actually extinct. Nevertheless, everyone knows Cyric for his part in the creation of the Spell Plague and they frequently mention his name to ward off evil with vague gestures while privately muttering any catastrophe probably has his hand in it. Thus, Cyric remains a strong and vigorous deity despite one hundred years of torment. Cyric cannot manifest his avatars anywhere but the Fugue Plane where he's been cast down to his own layer and bound at the base of Dendar the Night Serpent's cave by the gods. He avoids Kelemvor's domain tremendously but often can be found meeting with the Titans or other imprisoned deities as he plots his revenge or seeks some way to escape this horror. Cyric often visits dreams of his followers and provides portents despite his state of other impotency. In the meantime, Cyric's true form is fed horrific nightmares by the Elder Evil while she drips acidic venom on his stomach. History and Relationships: Cyric finally crossed one too many people when he murdered both Helm and Mystra in sucession. Leira had been a goddess with few friends thanks to her secretive ways while the Dark Triad had been loathed by all but themselves. Helm and Mystra, however, were deities with powerful allies while Spell Plague devastated much of Faerun. All of the gods unanimously turned against Cyric with Shar being one of the first to declare the act to be entirely his doing. Honestly, only the fact that the evil gods feared being punished for their own misdeeds kept Cyric from being sentenced to death. After a century, most believe Cyric to be completely mad. Bizzarely, the exact opposite is the case. The constant pain, torment, and horror has allowed Cyric to move past his arrogance while giving him something concrete to focus on. Cyric has not been as sane now since his days as a mortal. Unfortunately, that hardly improves his situation as he still finds himself a despised god in a nightmarish situation. His faithful are no help since Tyr launched a Crusade in Helm's name while Bane lent his own power to Mystra's former allies in rooting out almost the totality of the Dark Sun's faithful. Cyric's remaining Church is almost completely underground. Cyric has been busy shoring up the pitiful remnants so that they have numerous abilities not commonly found amongst the faithful of Toril. The majority of them spend their time masquerading as members of other Churches and are composed of career con men or charlatans. They still spread Chaos and Deception in the name of their god but are extremely careful to move out of the way whenever it is done. Most of them have very little loyalty to Cyric himself but are grateful for the power he gives them. Cyric no longer sews dischord amongst his own clergy, which would be quite impossible given almost every priest is autonomous with a few acolytes or a small cult around him. Cyric has spent most of his time creating false names for himself in hopes of moving past the negative P.R. he's achieved. Some of these have been moderately successful as he's developed a surprisingly large faithful amongst jesters and entertainers whom have forgotten his diabolic origins. Most murderers and many liars find praying to Cyric also helps them. Cyric has no allies and only have a few deities started to begrudingly forget the aftermaths of the Spell Plague. Arguably, it is safer for the Dark Sun to remain locked away than be freed given the vengeance burning in the hearts of some. Should Cyric ever be freed he might find that his new disposition is somewhat more agreeable to Mask (whom might accept him as an abused subordinate as his form of personal revenge), Shar (whom Cyric blames for this debacle), and Garagos (whom would more likely want to subsume his portfolio of murder). Oddly, Eldath routinely visits Cyric's tormented form to occasionally bail away some of the venom as an act of mercy. Cyric will likely be on his best behavior if he's ever freed but this is only because he's learned the worst lesson possible from this ordeal; patience. Like Shar, Cyric is filled with a desire to see the whole of the gods destroyed and the world of Toril laid waste to. Cyric's vengeance will take however long it must but he's got nothing but time to think. Dogma: Clearly, life is a joke. The absurdity of human (or elven, dwarven, gnomish, etc) existence is self-evident. There's something terribly funny about human suffering and we all just need to outright acknowledge it from underneath these polite facades we present. All it takes is one bad day to turn the greatest saint into a cold blooded monster. Spread the Mayhem and Horror around just to reveal the ugly true face of humanity. Cyric will reward you for the laughter you provide him.
XHereticX 01-28-08, 09:24 AM	Oh, so you are integrating Tharizdun into the Realms....interesting. Nice, this description actually makes me like Cyric a lot more now. He seems almost a mini-Tharizdun.
Charles Phipps 01-28-08, 06:18 PM	Oh, so you are integrating Tharizdun into the Realms....interesting. Nice, this description actually makes me like Cyric a lot more now. He seems almost a mini-Tharizdun. 1. Yes, basically, Ghaundaur is going to be filling the role of "The God that has the potential to awaken Lovecraft style and destroy everything." He's so powerful that his Avatar is a Greater God. He's the only God from the Far Realm in my games. 2. I figured that Cyric's major problem is that he's constantly being bounced around different concepts with no real identity other than "Evil." It may not be the most dignified job being the Realm's version of the Joker but it certainly at least gives people a starting point.
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 03:08 AM	Mask (The Prince of Thieves, The Shadowlord, The Lord of Shadows, The Guildmaster of Guildmasters) Greater God of Concordant Opposition (Formerly Carceri) Portfolio: Assassins, Intrigue, Lies, Politics, Shadows, Rogues, Thievery Alignment: Neutral Evil Aliases: The Fox, Leira, Vhaeraun Superior: None Allies: Beshaba, Finder-Milil, Loviatar, Kelemvor, Sharess Enemies: Eilistraee, Cyric, Lolth, Oghma, Shar, Torm Symbol: A black velvet mask, tinged with red. A Hand of Glory Domains: Charm, Darkness, Luck, Trickery Worshiper's Alignment: CG, N, CN, LE, NE, CE Mask is the son of Corellon Larethian and Araunshnee (later known as Lolth). The god Vhaeraun quickly realized he was in a losing position by just appealing to smatterings of cults of makes in the shadow of his mother's control in the Underdark. Vhaeraun then created a human persona to allow him to (literally) steal the Netherse God of Thieves' portfolio before said being faded away to nothingness. Mask shape-changes constantly with the only constant being a mask of some kind. The God talks a mile a minute and prefers to keep people mesmerized by his fast flowery speech. Mask is usually armed with a rapier and does his best to be stylish rather than terrifying (though he certainly can be the later). History and Relationships: It's good to be Mask (MASK). The creation of his Chosen Erevis Cale and Riven plus a few others has resulted in substantial dividends. Furthermore, Mask has taken the past one hundred years to murder every insane Cyricist Priest he can find before appealing to those that would give the Dark Sun lip service. Malak, Cyric's former Chosen, has since begun lying again as Mask's newest patriarch. With the devastation Shar wrought, Mask offered to make standing alliances with the gods of good against her power. In the end, only Kelemvor accepted the offer but it allowed him to steal some of her power as well in what should have been her greatest triumph. Mask, in his true form as the Drow God Vhaeraun, also managed to dispose of some of his rivals in the pantheon. It hasn't been all fun and games with several of his gambles not paying off very well. He still sports an artificial leg, created by Gond, thanks to Kesef and plenty of his male Drow followers joined with Eilistraee. It is quite likely that Mask will also run the risk of losing some of newfound power by gambling for more power but for the first time in a very long time, Mask is stable with a substantial following amongst the Realms many criminal syndicates and those who work in the shadows. Oddly, Mask has softened a bit in the wake of success. No longer beholden to Bane or fighting for an inch of ground, he's abandoned a good number of his more vile practices in order to focus on gathering worshipers from the less despicable. He's still a murderous thief who'd sell his own mother into slavery if he only thought he could lure her out of the Demonweb Pits long enough to do it. Mask is in no danger of becoming Chaotic Neutral, let alone Chaotic Good, but much of the fearful taint associated with his name has been polished off. This is only a public relations tool by Mask but its working so far. Ironically, he's gained some substantial enemies in recent years. Shar views him as a serious threat while he intends fully to press her current state of unpopularity to steal both Secrets and Darkness from her (which he believes will make him the most powerful evil god on Toril). This deeply underestimates Shar even as he'll never have a better time. Oghma, correctly, also believes that Mask murdered Deneir and Milil during the Spell Plague in order to steal the god's worshiper's energy for enough time as it took to snatch Cyric's lost portfolios. Finder is allied with Mask but honestly considering turning against him over the issue (besides, Finder has nothing to lose and everything to gain). If he continues his current success. It's likely Baravar Cloakshadow, Brandobaris, and Waukeen will all unite against him to prevent him from becoming too powerful. It doesn't hurt that Mask's allies are tepid at best. Dogma: Money is good and taking it is the best way that anyone can make it. More than money is respect and the luxurious pleasures that it brings. You can take anything from anyone if you know how to. Stealth, Lies, and Charisma will get you much further than brute force ever will. If you're sufficiently dashing, then idiots will call you a hero when you're committing murder or breaking into their homes. Try and take over positions of power whenever you can as well. There's no better place to be a thief than the government and there's always room for another power behind the throne, especially if you make some vacancies!
HVulpes 01-30-08, 11:45 AM	I would like to see your write up of the Finder Block. I always had an idea of Finder replacing Milil, but in a different way. I figured that Milil might have requested to join the Seladrine as a elven diety of music, at least it appears in my mind from time to time. Just curious.
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 09:49 PM	Kelemvor (Lord of the Dead, Judge of the Damned, The Doom Master, The Wrath of the Gods) Neutral Greater God of Carceri Portfolio: Balance, Death, The Dead, Retribution, Struggle Aliases: Ar'wan, Cro'm, The Grim Reaper, Po Ji Superiors: Ao Allies: Anubis, Azuth, Hoar, Lathander, Mask, Labelles Enoreth, Osiris, Oghma, Sune, Sharess, Tyr Domains: Fate, Law, Protection, Repose, Travel Foes: Asmodeus, Cyric, Ghaundaur, Garguath, Gra'azt, Orcus, Shar, Velsharoon Worshipers Alignment: LG, NG, CG, LN, N, CN, LE, NE, CE Kelemvor is a god that has changed many times in the past century. His current form is a much more active one than the grim and emotionless death he was before. The new Kelemvor has managed to regain some of his mortal fire but the being that remains is unquestionably recognizable as a god. Kelemvor prefers to appear in a variety of forms. The first form is that of a colorless gray armored knight that is perpetually surrounded by mist. Kelemvor's next form is that of a terrible black panther that reminds many of his form in his previous life. Kelemvor is also known to assume a terrible Skull like visage that was similiar to Myrkul's presence and an aged monk wearing a death mask similiar to his mortal face. Bizarrely, Kelemvor has developed a series of probably unsubstantiated romantic legends about himself and carrying off various bribes or romancing women to the grave. This is probably a prank of Cyric's for "No one should love death." History and Relationships: The death of Mystra has changed Kelemvor, though their love had long died. Instead, the catastrophe of the Spell Plague has mobilized Kelemvor to create a vast number of warriors and even armies to prevent such catastrophic abuse of the Balance again. The newly martial element of Kelemvor's faith alarms many even as they include many whom hold less to the ideals of reasonable benevolence that the Grim Guardian once held. Kelemvor has ceased his enimity with many that believed his struggles would be permanent with. Kelemvor has made his peace, as much as reasonably possible can be made, with Bane. He no longer objects to the activities of Talona or the Gods of Fury with any real assent. Instead, Kelemvor has devoted almost the totality of his attention to Shar and Cyric with an additional desire to see the various diabolical powers destroyed. Kelemvor is annoyed, more than anything, by Garagos' practically declared intent to steal his portfolios. Kelemvor still unquestionably loathes the undead, and especially their god Velsharoon. However, he seems to have lost much of his instinctive revulsion for them as the past century has shown them that 'immortality' is rarely anything but. Kelemvor has allowed the creation of Deathless and even accepted the presence of undead into his faith that hunt down upon his enemies. Nevertheless, most of these beings seem to consider the Fugue Plane as much their home as the Prime Material. Jergal has fully passed on his divine power to Kelemvor with his new state as a 'mere' Archangel in Kelemvor's service. Relations are somewhat strained but generally cordial to all the other gods of Death in the Realms as Kelemvor's holds ultimate judgement but generally defers the souls of their realms to them. The God Hoar has given up vengeance unto Kelemvor in exchange for sponsorship in other areas as he rethinks his current role in the pantheon. Hoar mostly serves as Kelemvor's "Angel of Death" as he goes forth and slays those that have offended all of the gods with their perfidy. Kelemvor is at the heart of an alliance of Azuth, Tyr, Lathander, Oghma, Sune, Sharess, and Mask that's devoted to the destruction of Cyric's clergy along with making sure Shar's depredations remain broken. Unfortunately, Kelemvor is the only real one they are all willing to work with and he senses some's commitment is wavering after a century of revenge. Dogma: Death is natural. This is the fact of life. It is inescapable and eternal. Nevertheless, it is the beginning of a long journey. The important thing is not what you believe but that you believe in it strongly and that it was made by willing and informed choice. Undead are a sad and twisted abomination best laid to rest even when they have purpose. No one can defy death for two long, though the struggle against it is important for it should never come prematurely as much as it should never be postponed. It should always come in due time. Protect reality from all those who would destroy the Cycle of Life and especially those Demons or Devils that attempt to subvert the worshiping process.
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 01:43 AM	I would like to see your write up of the Finder Block. I always had an idea of Finder replacing Milil, but in a different way. I figured that Milil might have requested to join the Seladrine as a elven diety of music, at least it appears in my mind from time to time. Just curious. Thanks, sure, I'll definitely share that with you. In my campaign, Milil is decidedly dead but the basic idea behind Finder is still fundamentally accurate. Basically, I always felt that Finder had more panache than Milil whom would have gotten a lot more support if he'd been portrayed like Elan or someone interesting. :-) But I'll do up my write-up, ASAP.
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 04:01 AM	Finder-Milil (Lord of Song, the Lord of All Songs, Guardian of Singers, The Sly One) Neutral Leser God of Concordant Opposition Portfolio: Adventurers, Bards, Entertainers, Enchantment, Harpers, Music, Song Aliases: Heward, Olidammara, Wyvernspur, The Song of the Saurials Superiors: Oghma Allies: Azuth, Beshaba, Deneir, Oghma, Mask, Sharess, Tymora Foes: Bane, Garagos, Mask, Moander (Lolth), Velsharoon, Shaundakul Domains: Charm, Knowledge, Reknewal, Protection Symbol: A Harper Pin surrounded by stars Worshipers Alignment: LG, NG, CG, LN, N, CN, LE, NE, CE Finder-Milil (pronounced FIND-er-mill-LIL) has a religion that is both alive and vigorous. It is not growing at an exponential rate but it is no longer spoken of as a joke in the Realms. His faithful live up the high life and Finder expects very little of them other than they be risk takers, seek to perform great deeds, and have a fondness for good music. Finder has become, despite the fact he was an imprisoned criminal of them, the most widely worshiped god amongst the Harpers though few count him as their primary patron. Finder appears much as he did in life. This is to say that he prefers the form of a slightly grungy bard with the ability to blend in to those circumstances around him. Finder is known to take many other shapes and illusions as well with quite a few being outright imitations of the late Milil. Finder has taken to sporting an eyepatch due to a painful wound he recieved from Garagos when he attempted to slay that deity as a way to prove his metal. Finder's faith is noteworthy its Chosen and unofficial (due to her violently resisting the accolade) Patron Saint, Alias Wyvernspur, whom is reputed to be one of the Realm's greatest warriors. History and Relationships: Finder-Milil is a god that few thought would outlive the Spellplague. Finder Wyvernspur had a history that was largely dominated by his follies while Bards already had two patrons in both Oghma as well as Milil. Then, tragedy struck as Milil was cut down by an unknown force and a vacancy was created that Finder was perfect to step in. Finder has mostly shed his previous portfolios, bargaining them like a merchant at a bazaar in exchange for various additions to his now solidified power base. Finder has adopted the Milil name in addition to his own and blatantly lied to his clergy by claiming that his mortal life was nothing more than an avatar of the late deity. Many of Milil's more noble followers have wandered off to other gods or the Seldarine but Finder has become a very popular god with adventurers. Finder is an ambitious god to say the least and has his eyes on the portfolios of both Mask and Shaundakul. This is despite that he is making friendly overtures to both. Shaundakul has decided he wants nothing to do with the deity, aware that Finder has not fully shed his darker and ambitious side. Were Finder to ever learn his lesson about ambition, Shaundakul would prove a natural ally. Mask, on the other hand, is perfectly willing to play the part of unlikely ally with Finder in the belief they can help each other as much as hinder. Tymora is exasperated that Finder has also been friend towards her mortal enemy in Beshaba. Finder is not a malevolent deity, however, despite his rampant ambition. He maintains a loathing for authority and evil despite his neutral nature. Despite the personal risks, Finder has stuck to his Harper oaths and set himself against the works of the Second Dark Triad. Bane is only dimly aware that Finder prevented his resurrection earlier and it will take something extraordinary to actually convince him the lesser god is a threat. Garagos and Velsharoon take Finder Wyvernspur a trifle more seriously since both are intimately familiar with 'little fish' in the divine pool becoming major powers. Finder is comitted to wiping out all traces of Moander's Church and managed to score several victories against Lolth's faux cult to him during the Silence, preventing her from gaining even more power. At this point, she has larger worries but this has actually endeared him to the Seldarine to a certain extent as well as Eilistraee. Mask is unlikely to squash the upstart like a bug so long as he keeps vexing his mother's human and elvish cults. Dogma: Life is to be lived! Celebrate and enjoy life while understanding the beauties of the art around you. Be aware that you should protect your personal freedom and perform many great deeds. Be aware that there's no shame in helping yourself to more wealth than perhaps you really need, so long as its done with panache. Stay loyal to your adventuring companions and try to carve a piece of glory for yourself (and Finder).
Uzzy 01-31-08, 04:37 AM	I'd love to see more about what you've done with Lliira, Charles.
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 06:23 AM	I'd love to see more about what you've done with Lliira, Charles. Thanks, she'll be next on the list. FYI- I've been assembling my campaign notes and noting that a lot of my changes overlap with other gods and result in views that are slightly different. So anyone who wants to request *any* god write-up (with slightly different portrayals), feel free. (I'll even fix Merrshaulk XHeretic :-))
Vrboo 01-31-08, 10:56 AM	Charles, this thread has been a *FANTASTIC* read! Thanks for sharing your wonderful customized FR Diety World with us. I'm rather interested in your take on 3 "expired" deities in FR canon lore. 01. Leira, Lady of the Mists 02. Murdane, Goddess of Reason & Pragmatism 03. Moander, the Darkbringer, the Rotting God Leira is always at the forefront of the god resurrection debate. After all, her death may very well have been one big illusion. Murdane has little written about her ... but I think her interesting niche would fit well within your well-thought-out FR world. Moander would seem like an intriguing enemy of your customized Ghaunadaur. Thanks for reading!
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 04:32 PM	I hope people enjoy this version of Lliira. It's still mostly the same goddess but I dramatically re-emphasized some aspects of her to come up with something quite different. Lliira (Joybringer, Lady Freedom, Mistress of Revels, Mistress of Blades, Princess of Swords, Our Lady of Joy) Lesser (soon to be Intermediate) Goddess of Arborea Portfolio: Joy, Happiness, Dance, Festivals, Freedom, Liberty, Martial Arts, Swords Alignment: Chaotic Good Aliases: None Superior: Sune Allies: Corellon Latherian, Hanali Celanil, Ilmater, Lathander, Mielikki, Sharess, Sune, Torm, Waukeen Enemies: Bane, Gilgeam (Formerly), Horus-Re, Loviatar, Shar, Tiamat Symbol: A barefoot dancing made, Two swords crossed Domains: Chaos, Good, Charm, Protection Worshiper's Alignment: LG, NG, CG, LN, N, CN Lliira (pronounced LEER-ah) is a goddess that a great number in the Realms tend to dismiss as a festival goddess. She is widely revered but the worship is not particularly deep. The exceptions are her Joybringers and Sword Sages whom take her worship very seriously. To many, Lliira is not just the Goddess of Happiness and Joy but also the goddess who shall liberate them from bondage. Lliira is an exuberant deity that tends to appear as a barefoot woman in a flowing short dress that allows maximum freedom of movement. She's been known to appear as a Human, Elf, Half-Elf, and Halfling in her avatar form. She is able to conjure a pair of scimitars from the air at any point and is nightmarishly effective with them. Lliira is a sexually promiscuous goddess and is well known for her affairs with mortals (both male and female) with a particular fondness for adventurers. History and Relationships: The faith of Lliira is devoted to seeing all people in the realms achieve a piece of happiness and freedom to live in peace; which sets her against the Church of Bane, the Zulkirs of Thay, The tyrants of Unther (whoever they may be). Even those who are good and noble deities yet hold that certain individuals are meant to serve others by nature find Lliira an implacable enemy (Her priests' fight against Horus-Re's attempt to conquer Unther has the Pharoah of the Mulhorandi gods more bewildered than anything else). Lliira's faith works to master the Martial Arts despite their free roaming and carefree lifestyle. Almost every conceivable martial class is found amongst her ranks with the Realms only organized Knighthood of Holy Liberators (The Blessed Swords of Joy) being one of her only clergies. Lliira also sponsors a Specialty variant of the Monk Class that does not require one to be Lawful to follow. Because of the odd contradictions in her faith, Lliira has a rather unusual collection of allies. According to Church Legend, Lliira has only been fought to a draw by a single deity in a purely skill based sword battle and that was Torm. The two of them are thus firm allies in the end of slavery and tyranny despite Torm's rigidly lawful nature. Likewise, Lliira's faithful cooperates with the Church of Ilmater in attempts to ease the wounds of those whom have been bitterly abused by evil doers. The vengeful aspect of the Joybringer has brought many abusers to horrible ends. She is one of the most ardent supporters of the Harpers even when she is not amongst the most worshiped of their gods. Lliira has a strong friendship, some say love affair, with Waukeen but their relationship has been strained as of late. Waukeen's belief that anything is a commodity is something that has Lliira rather severely troubled as it's clear the Coin Goddess will never be lured to a more noble view of the world when strict pragmatism will always be her philosophy. The arrival of Siamorphe in Arborea has also lead to Lliira spending less time there as she is not terribly fond of the concept of nobility to begin with. Most evil gods count Lliira as a relatively low threat to their plans. Bane tends to discount the possible threat that a 'dancing fey girl' can pose to his plans while Loviatar believes that her portfolio can easily be subverted to her ends. Tiamat has probably not even noticed that Lliira's small cult in Unther is attempting to overthrow her growing domination of the region. Shar, on the other hand, takes Lliira very seriously for reasons that aren't immediately apparent but would destroy her if she could get around Sune's touch. If allowed to grow amongst freed slaves, Mulhorand, Unther, and in the shadow of Zhentil Keep then Lliira's faith will soon raise her to a power to be reckoned with. Dogma: All people deserve to be free, happy, and equal. No one in this world has the right to push other's down for their own amusement and any laws that say otherwise should be overturned. Oppose Tyrants and bringers of sadness wherever you find them. Do not let the fight overwhelm you, though, for the darkness wins if you surrender to despair. Instead, realize the world is supposed to a wondrous and happy place.
Uzzy 01-31-08, 08:32 PM	I like. I asked Ed a question relating to this a while back, asking if Lliira (and Lliirans) would fight for freedom, but got a no to that. I'll dig it up if you want. Still, I like this version of Lliira. I wonder if her portfolio could extend to Freedom Fighters, and by extension, Revolutions.
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 08:40 PM	I like. I asked Ed a question relating to this a while back, asking if Lliira (and Lliirans) would fight for freedom, but got a no to that. I'll dig it up if you want. Sure, go ahead on supply the quote. I'd love to read it. Well, Ed Greenwood and I had a talk about how every Toril is slightly different. While everything Ed Greenwood says is canon, let's not forget that his own Forgotten Realms is divergent from canon since the TOT and thus nearly everything after never happened. I made a reference to DC's Pre-Crisis Multiverse as an example and he agreed with it (from my take of his words). I ended up labeling his Realms, Toril-2 (appropriate since Earth-2 preceded DC comic's universe). I claimed the label of Toril-616 for my own. So, clearly, some of the things are different in Toril-616 but this is just to share some ideas. Still, I like this version of Lliira. I wonder if her portfolio could extend to Freedom Fighters, and by extension, Revolutions. Overall, I tend to think Lliira has an awkward relationship with Talos who has the Portfolio of Rebellion and Revolutions. Where Lliira is an advocate of revolution and social change, Talos is an advocate of anarchy and radicalism that corrupts her own inclinations. I made this more martial version of Lliira simply by thinking about some of the implications of this portfolio. The idea of Swordplay as a form of dance was definitely on my mind while also the fact the Realms is ridden with slavery yet she's also the Goddess of Freedom. I think it makes her a much more important goddess.
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 09:07 PM	Charles, this thread has been a *FANTASTIC* read! Thanks for sharing your wonderful customized FR Diety World with us. I'm rather interested in your take on 3 "expired" deities in FR canon lore. 01. Leira, Lady of the Mists 02. Murdane, Goddess of Reason & Pragmatism 03. Moander, the Darkbringer, the Rotting God Leira is always at the forefront of the god resurrection debate. After all, her death may very well have been one big illusion. Murdane has little written about her ... but I think her interesting niche would fit well within your well-thought-out FR world. Moander would seem like an intriguing enemy of your customized Ghaunadaur. Thanks for reading! Thanks, 1) I'll definitely do up a write-up in my campaign of Leira's role in the Pre-TOT games and what possible hopes for resurrection she has. At present in Universe-616, Mask has wholly revived her religion in the belief she's safely dead and loving it. If she's not, well, Mask may have unwittingly given her room to restore herself. 2) Murdane will be an interesting treat to show as the victim of the Dawn Cataclysm and fleshing out a long forgotten goddess. 3) Moander was a major villain in our campaigns (Finder didn't finish him off quite as well as he thinks he did) so you'll definitely be getting the full write-up upon him. Suffice to say, he's a lot different from the "canon" one in that he's not the God of Compost....but the God of Decay and corruption in all of its forms. Frankly, my 4E updates are going to need to take a step back as while I was aware that Halruaa was going to be destroyed and Unther taken over by Dragonborn, the sudden removal of Mulhorandi from existence has definitely thrown me for a loop. Hence, some inaccurate information above like Lliira as an enemy of Horus-Re. Oh, and another request from one of my players on these boards. I'm enjoying it. I'm surprised Lliira turned out to be so martial. I guess in the realms you can use any god as an excuse to fight! Naturally, Kana and I eagerly await your triple-sized special treatment of Ulutiu! And, of course, the WARLORDS OF ELDATH AND LURUE! Others I'd like to see would be a full Red Knight, Ilmater, Mielliki, Selune, Sune, Shar, Umberlee, and Auril. Okay, a LENGTHY set of requests. However, he IS a player and also my Co-DM so he gets to approve all of these and disapprove.
Connell 01-31-08, 11:35 PM	Interesting how you made Lliira into a deity specifically oriented towards the integration of game material from the Tome of Battle (the part about the Swordsages). To tie all that together a bit more, you may wanna give the Martial Adept angle a mention somewhere in the 'dogma' entry for Lliira. Overall all though, 2 thumbs up! :-)
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 11:38 PM	FYI, I left a lot of it understated but my version of Moander always makes me want to take a cold shower after reading. Moander (The Dark Bringer, The Rotting God, The Lord of Decay, The Lord of Vice, The Festering Horror) Deceased Demipower (Former Greater Power) of the Abyss Portfolio: Corruption, Decay, Drugs, Perversion, Pollution, Rot, The Unnatural, Vice Alignment: Chaotic Evil Aliases: Aku, Amatsu-Mikaboshi, Hahstor, Mammon (after destroying Mammon's Realms avatar), The Obese King of a Thousand Mouths, The Spawnlord, Jubilex (later absorbed by his patron Ghaunadaur) Superior: Ghaunadaur (secret) Allies: Garagos (former), Gra'azt, Shar, Talona (secret), Talos Enemies: Bane, Chauntea, Ilmater, Lathander, Silvanus, Lliira, Mielikki, Sune, The Seldarine, Torm, Tyr, Tymora Symbol: A hand with a yawning and gaping mouth on it. Domains: Corruption, Destruction, Evil, Slime Favored Weapon: Quarterstaff Moander (Pronounced Moe-AN-der) is a deity of distinction. It takes a special kind of evil to revolt Bane himself, but Moander manages to do it. It takes a truly sick :censored: to worship The Lord of Decay as his religion is one of the most depraved and despicable in the entirety of the Realms. It is disturbing that there were times when the Dark Bringer was actually a very popular god. The civilizations that revered his religion of disgusting excess were almost always one that soon fell afterwards into destruction. Moander seems incapable, or unwilling, to assume a pleasing form. Instead, his appearance is often of sick and horrendous malformations of flesh or alien horrors. Bizarrely, he often extends his aura to the viewers that they become fascinated with the thing he is. His most normal forms are an obscenely obese merchant lord dripping with greasy sweat and a gigantic speaking compost mound. Strangely, he's capable of assuming a perfectly normal black skinned samurai in the regions of Kara-Tur that seems to absorb all light in the world. History and Relationships: Moander was born dead. The stillborn child of Amaunator and Shar or Selune and Shar (as the legends vary) due to the battle that created the goddess Mystra. Shar tossed the babe from her womb into the darkened chasms of the Abyss where the corpse was inhabited by the tendrils of an unspeakable evil. The undead god emerged onto Toril soon later and helped bring about the corruption then destruction of the Creator Race. Moander has seemingly always cared less for power than the degredation of the soul and many question whether he's not a Demon-God like Orcus rather than 'simply' a regular God of Evil. Moander routinely lured people into his countless cults by promises of hidden wisdom and untold pleasures that he proceeded to addict his subjects to before outright enslaving them. He destroyed the natural world purely for the joy of it rather than any real purpose. Countless Abberations and Undead creatures were unleashed by Moander as his name was spoken with utter hatred. Ultimately, it was Bane of all beings that tipped the scales against Moander's power as he grew sick of the monster disrupting his forces and leaving nothing to conquer. The ruthless purge of Moander's followers throughout dozens of cities by Bhaal's assassins combined with his own tyranny was followed swiftly by an alliance of Nature loving humans with the elves plus a Crusade from the Triad. The combined efforts annihilated most of Moander's cults throughout the whole of Faerun. Finally, the weakened Moander fled to the Prime Material in the hopes of corrupting it only to be bound by elven high magic which drew on the power of Corellon Latherian himself. In the end, he was awakened by Alias only to be finished off by Finder (or so it was supposed). Moander was a crafty and evil creature that was well acquainted with the Abyss. Finder Wyvernspur might find absorbing him is merely a means for Moander to slowly rebuild his divine strength. The fact that Lolth is rebuilding his faith as well might allow the horror to be reborn as well. Some genuinely sick mages might believe restoring the god to be worth it as well, a trick made easier since few have forgotten Moander despite the centuries. Talona has since absorbed Moander's portfolio of Drugs and Pollution while Ghaunadaur has begun stirring more actively since his pawn's defeat. Dogma: Conscience, Mercy, and Morality are all tricks to hold you to society's slavery. The only way to break free is engage in the very acts that they condemn in order to free you from your mental bondage to them. There is only pleasure and the true pleasure comes from intoxicating your senses beyond all reason. Life and Death have no meaning for the Rotting Lord will eventually absorb the whole of creation, so one is best suited to serving him eternally since the only other option is to be devoured solely by him.
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 11:40 PM	Interesting how you made Lliira into a deity specifically oriented towards the integration of game material from the Tome of Battle (the part about the Swordsages). To tie all that together a bit more, you may wanna give the Martial Adept angle a mention somewhere in the 'dogma' entry for Lliira. Overall all though, 2 thumbs up! :-) Thanks, I tend to think of Torm as the God of Crusaders as well. The_Mess also indicated that Battledancers were probably a Prestige class of Lliirites as well. But I just might.
DarkSongKnight 02-01-08, 12:05 AM	Here is the quote Uzzy was speaking of. I think its a great insight into Lliirans. This time, Ed responds to Uzzy’s post: “Hello Ed! Another question about Lliira from me. Ive been looking through various bits of lore about Lliira, looking for a reason as to why Lliira has two Portfolios, those of Freedom and Liberty. They certainly get mention in various Lliiran based feats, etc, but with Lliira being described often as a flighty and detached Goddess, I dont see where she has Freedom and Liberty from (except maybe having Freedom due to her dancing nature, Freedom of Movement and all that) Basically, what im asking is this. Where is this part of Lliira coming from? Would revolutionaries/freedom fighters really worship Lliira? Because, even with Lliira having those Portfolios, I dont see it happening. Perhaps shes just neglecting those Portfolios? Thanks in advance.” Ed replies: I see your point. I suspect you’re using one pair of particular meanings of “freedom” and of “liberty,” whereas I and other Realms designers are using other meanings. First, let’s look at some basic dictionary definitions (from a Pocket Oxford, edited down by me to remove etymology, etc.): “FREEDOM: personal or civic liberty; liberty of action (to do); frankness, undue familiarity take freedoms with: boldness of conception; exemption (from): privilege possessed by city or corporation; membership, citizenship freedom of: free use of company, city, house” and “LIBERTY: Being free, freedom, freedom personified, right or power to do as one pleases or to do; at liberty: free, disengaged, having the right or permission to do; (natural liberty, civil liberty, etc.)” Now, as one might expect, those definitions refer to each other, but they’re pretty clear once you disentangle the various meanings. They can be simplified down into "freedom" being the actual lack of restraints, rules, barriers, and so on, on behaviour, and explicit permission to be free; and "liberty" being the "feeling free" mental attitude of the free, that lets them understand their freedom and take advantage of their freedom by actually ACTING in a free manner. Or one can match the meanings with the words the other way around; the fact that the two words have become so confused, over the years, is due to loose usage (see immediately below). By your mention of revolutionaries and freedom fighters, you seem to be linking “freedom” and “liberty” firmly with warfare (what I call the “Fourth of July speechwriter’s” use of those words; for example, the phrase “freedom is on the march” is an oxymoron to someone not thinking of freedom in militaristic terms, just as “freedom reigns” is an oxymoron unless the speaker is using “reign” in the benevolent sense, to mean something light-handed whereas “ruling” means dungeons and headsmen and soldiers bursting into homes to root out miscreants). Please don't misunderstand me: I am NOT saying freedom and liberty aren't worth fighting for (nor that they can usually be gained without fighting for them). And the Realms has more than a few deities who govern (many aspects of) fighting. However, by and large, Lliira isn’t one of them. The Scarlet Mummers (details upcoming in a Realmslore web column on the WotC website, as I told you in an earlier post) are the main exception: they ARE fighting clerics within the priesthood of Lliira, but their role is mainly defending the faith and Lliiran worshippers. They do attack adherents, temples, and clergy of Loviatar, and act against those who seek to stamp out or punish revelry. They do so in order to keep other priests of Lliira from having to take up arms or break off being carefree and happy. Lay worshippers of Lliira, however, aren’t ever expected (by Lliiran clergy) to fight with weapons to promote freedom and liberty. (Though they won’t be chastised by Lliiran clergy for, say, drawing a dagger to defend themselves, as that’s also an act of personal freedom.) They are enjoined to act as if they are free, so as to make a locale, society, and situation more free. (Freedom is the act of doing what we want, so if we all try to do what we want, we’ll be free - - or at least, more free.) For instance: in a town with strict laws and large numbers of heavily-armed Watchmen poking their noses (and drawn swords) everywhere, the mood will likely be law-abiding, but also very quiet, wary, even fearful. A Llliran’s way is to laugh, dance, frolic, tell jokes to and about the Watch, and “act carefree.” Not to attack the Watch, but to make everyone carefree and heart-light (or at least happier). Break the tension. Offer wine and small gifts to the Watch and everyone else. Enjoin mourners at a funeral to stop weeping and being grim, and tell stories about funny things the deceased said or did. Try to get into male-only societies and clubs if they’re female, and vice versa if they’re male, and ask continually why everything isn’t open to everyone. (But do so in a playful way, not an antagonistic manner.) Glance back at those dictionary definitions. Out of the various meanings of Freedom, a devout Lliiran promotes liberty of personal action, boldness of conception, frankness, and familiarity - - to a Lliiran, there’s no such thing as “undue familiarity;” nothing is ‘too much’ (in the public baths, the Lliiran is the guy who cheerfully comments on the sizes of all the *****es around him - - and his own). In other words, a Lliiran is always trying to (peacefully and politely, working through legitimate channels) change laws that restrict (e.g. “women can’t come in here” or “all taverns must close at dawn”), always speaking the truth (where someone wearing a horrible and expensive new hat asks a neighbour if they like it, and the neighbour to be polite says it’s nice, a devout Lliiran says cheerfully that it’s horrible), and treating everyone like an intimate friend (there are no taboo subjects, which can be embarrassing, but also liberating - - that word again - - because a visitor, just arrived in town, can complain to a Lliiran she’s never met before that her underthings are itching, and ask how to wash them or alter them to fix that). Lliirans are always in the forefront of new ideas, new styles of art and music, and always supporting (and working to make sure they’ll be successful) festivals of misrule (where the servants are served by their masters for a day, or guild apprentices run riot) Back to the dictionary definitions, to Liberty this time. A devout Lliiran celebrates and promotes in others the joy of being free, the right to do as one pleases - - again, working against restrictive laws, breaking minor written and unwritten rules (“No singing in here!” Lliiran response: start trilling away) where societal safety won’t be harmed (a Lliiran is NOT an insensitive, airheaded idiot, and won’t joke about dead babies to a bereaved mother or shout “fire!” in a crowded chamber), and breaking their own and others’ routine. “Enjoy the moment!” is a Lliiran saying; “Do something different!” is another. “Why not?” is a favourite Lliiran response to just about anything. It’s very important not to use freedom or liberty in a militaristic sense when speaking of this goddess or her followers. These are the people who put flowers in the mouths of guns, and do the “free love” thing, speaking out against oppression and aiding the oppressed but NOT fighting the oppressors. They are the Gandhis, not the men with guns. They are NOT the anarchists and freedom fighters who use bombs or slayings or open warfare to try to change things. They may work with, and heal, hide, and help such fighters, but those fighters are more likely to venerate or be clergy of Tyr, Lathander, Tempus, Torm, Garagos, or even Helm or Red Knight. Whereas clergy of Ilmater concentrate on enduring oppression, clergy of Lliira make fun of oppressors and try to lighten the hearts of the oppressed. Lliiran clergy who know of an armed plot to overthrow an oppressive regime would NOT help fight against that regime with weapons - - but they WOULD (if asked) spread word of plots and preparations (“gather here at dusk” and “hide your coins and be ready to travel”), help bankroll the freedom fighters, provide diversions and shelter and healing, mock and hamper armed authorities seeking to quell the rebellion, and so on. They will WORK FOR freedom, but not FIGHT FOR freedom (and so are often labelled “flighty” and “uncaring” by others, labels you echoed in your post). So saith Ed. I like many of the ideas you have for the deities, and how you're working in more classes and such. The "unlawful" monks of Lliira are a neat idea. Keep up the good work! :) Quick question: Do you have any ideas as to how Malcanthet, Queen of Succubi might be incorporated into the Realms?
Charles Phipps 02-01-08, 03:43 AM	Here is the quote Uzzy was speaking of. I think its a great insight into Lliirans. Thanks. It explains a lot, though clearly I went a different route. Frankly, I just needed someone for the "Sons of Liberty" that was a God of Chaos. Ed described her very well though (as always). I like many of the ideas you have for the deities, and how you're working in more classes and such. The "unlawful" monks of Lliira are a neat idea. Keep up the good work! :) Glad you enjoyed it and I do love comments, so if you have anything to say about anyone, feel free to pipe in since they help inspire me to my next bit of writing. Quick question: Do you have any ideas as to how Malcanthet, Queen of Succubi might be incorporated into the Realms? Something like this? (finding a good succubus picture is downright hard---for COC non-violations :shifty: ) Malcanthet (Queen of Succubi, Princess of Temptation, The Red Lady) Demon Lord of The Abyss Portfolio: None (see Talona) Alignment: Chaotic Evil Aliases: Hamman, Lilith, Sin Superior: Talona Allies: Demogorgon, Mastiphal (an alias of Malar), Pazuzu, Socothbenoth (a former ally of Moander) Enemies: Baphomut, Gra'azt, Glaysia, Hanelli, Loviatar, Sharess, Sune, Yeenoghu Domains: None (see Talona) Malcanthet (Mal'CAN'Th'Et) is a newcomer to Faerun with a cult that's mostly expanding at the expense of the faiths of Loviatar and Sharess. It's most popular in the jaded halls of Calisham, the pleasure palaces of Dambrath, the noble houses of Waterdeep, the debauched bath houses of Netheril, and Sembia's various brothels with even a few Thayan enclaves having given in to her caresses. It's not a large faith by any stretch of the imagination but it's larger than many have expected and it's alarming both deities. Malcanthet appears as a genuine demoness and never bothers with anything less than gorgeous mixed with infernal. Her horns, red skin, and bare attire (when she goes wearing anything at all) always draw attention from whoever she meets. As a Demon Lord, she has no avatars and rarely bother disguising herself since the Succubus Queen only appears for grand ceremonies or particularly important seductions (particularly of important priests or noblemen). History and Relationships: Malcanthet is a Demon lord that has long set her sights on acquiring a foothold on a magic rich world like Toril. Unfortunately, the gods jealously guard their positions on Faerun and fiend cults were usually brutally dealt with. That is, they were brutally dealt with unless one had a sponsor. Talona's feud with Loviatar is something that most reasonable bets place the money the Maiden of Pain for winning. Loviatar is beautiful with a cult of willing worshipers that were drawn by their decadent love of pain while Talona could only offer poison or freedom from disease (which was an underestimated ability to begin with). Malcanthet's fiendish cult is slowly moving through the ranks of Abber-Toril post the Spell-Plague to help ease the suffering of shell-shocked members of the populous. They are primarilly focused on recruiting Loviatar's faithful to switch over as Malcanthet is capable of providing new experiences to even the jaded upper-clergy that have torment beyond reason. Talona provides the spells for the newly converted clergy while they embrace their newfound depravity with heaps of drugs or spread along incurable sexual diseases that only the touch of The Lady of Poison can provide relief for (but not a cure). Malcanthet is not stupid, however, and neither is Talona. Both of them are aware how this dance is going to play out. Talona will, at the proper time, attempt to subsume Malcanthet and steal away her flock of worshipers before adding her name to the many aliases of the Mother of All Plagues (plus gaining the beauty she's always wanted). Likewise, Malcanthet will attempt to make the cross into divinity herself either at the sponsorship of another deity or stealing some portion of divine essence for herself. The odds favor Talona but Loviatar certainly doesn't intend to sit back and let the pair help themselves to her portfolio. Malcanthet is not restricting herself to harassing the Loviatar clergy and building her own flock of willing sex-slaves. She is specifically focused on attacking the weakened Sharess in the wake of Mulhorand's devastation. Malcanthet, Loviatar, and Talona all agree she's the weak link in the chain of Sune's allies. Furthermore, her portfolios will all be easilly enough added to the service of evil. Sharess is in something of a fuge right now and the Demigoddess may honestly welcome death after one last binge (though whether the dark deities take over, she hands over her portfolio to Llirra, or she rejuvenates in another way is anyone's guess). One possible ending may well have Malcanthet switch sides to the Nine Hells like so many other Succubi seem to be doing in the wake of the Abyss' relocation to the Elemental Chaos. Most likely, Glaysia will be the Queen of the Succubi there and Malcanthet has no desire to lose her position as Patron of the Seducer Demons. This fact makes seizing godhood all the more important here. If Malcanthet does convert to Lawful status then, most likely, she will become Loviatar's ally against Talona and an ally of Gargauth. Dogma: Really now, you actually have to be told? Mindless depraved hedonism morning, day, and night with every person's next moment focused on gaining the next high before burning themselves out is pretty much her 'faith' in a nutshell. Her followers tend to be willing to do anything for their next fix and invariably it involves depraved corruptive acts of some sort. If you want pretensions of enlightenment, don't look to a fiend cult. Malcanthet rarely bothers with mortal cultists when she can have her minions directly control them but a few are intelligent enough to be charged with handling more than merely the orders of her Outsider minions.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 08:49 AM	Excellent work as usual Charles. Can you do Ibrandul and Auppenser too? Yay, fix Merrashaulk!!!
Charles Phipps 02-01-08, 12:47 PM	Excellent work as usual Charles. Can you do Ibrandul and Auppenser too? Yay, fix Merrashaulk!!! Sure, there's lots of gods to do and I'll make them as the inspiration takes me. I have, for instance, a write-up of how Asmodeus ascends to Greater God status in the Forgotten Realms. (Hint: I finally figured out a decent way to make the Tyr/Helm story work)
Charles Phipps 02-01-08, 12:51 PM	Selune (The Lady of Mysteries, The Moonmaiden, Our Lady of Silver, The Wise Mother) Greater Goddess of Elysium Portfolio: Cycles, Divination, Enlightenment, The Moon, Magic (patronizing), Mysteries (patronizing), Psionics (patronizing), Stars, Time, Wisdom Alignment: Neutral Good Aliases: The Crone, Hecate, Sehaniine Moonbow Superior: Ao Allies: Aupennser (deceased), Azuth, Chauntaea, Kelemvor, Lathander, Lliira, Mielikki, Mystra (deceased), Oghma, Sune, Valkur Enemies: Cyric, Shar, Talos, Velsharoon Symbol: A single moon shaped disc of silver Domains: Good, Magic, Moon, Protection, Travel Selune (pronounced seh-LOON-ay) has risen to her former level of power in the wake of Mystra's death and made much of the Realms pantheon shudder with her new found strength. Selune wishes dearly that she were not required to flex her ancient strength like she is but much of the pantheon now looks to her for advice in the wake of the Spell Plague's devastation. History and Relationships: To clarify one thing, the origin story of Selune is true. She really is the first goddess of Toril and is literally older than dirt since she's Chauntaea's mother. What few realize, is she's even older than that. Selune is an ancient goddess that helped in the creation of Elves and humankind owes it's existence to her as well. She is a primeval god that knows more secrets of creation than almost any save those who also date back to the very beginning. Selune voluntarilly sacrificed much of her power to Chauntaea, Mystra, and Sune because she believes in strength in numbers rather than the individual. The loss of Mystra is devastating to her since she believed Midnight to be the greatest of her daughter's incarnations. Selune has begun watching over Mystra's clergy and protecting them from the wrath of those angry about the Spellplague. Unintentionally, Selune has caused a blanket majority of them to switch to her worship. Savras' death has also had his full portfolio transfer to her. Selune has shuffled her portfolio somewhat to concentrate on new areas of responsibility that have been opened up to her. She has voluntarilly handed over her dominion over navigation to Valkur, strengthening that god as he's submitted himself voluntarilly to her as a servitor god. Likewise, Good and Neutral Lycanthropes now find a new home with Mielikki as she must focus on other areas of concern. The Goddess of Wisdom has formed a vast coalition around herself that is devoted to punishing those who caused the disaster of the Spell Plague while simultaneously working to repair all of its damage. It is directly because of Selune's efforts that the massive Earthquakes, Tidal Waves, and Volcanos that would have destroyed all life on Toril were prevented. It tales a special kind of woman to convince even Talos to work for the preservation of the world (after all, what would he have to wreck then?). Since then, the chaotic god has declared his enimity for Selune undoing any further damage. The Moonmaiden is actively looking for ways to restore Maztica, Mulhorand, and Unther to their original places in the Realms. Furthermore, Selune is hoping to discover a way to restore Mystra back to life or undo whatever magic has prevented a new one from being born. In the meantime, her clergy grows as those who were devastated by the Spell Plague often find her church a place to go in hopes of alleviating the suffering of others. At least one Haluraa survivor has been inspired by her to attempt to rebuild the civilization despite its near total annihilation. Dogma: Selune's faith teaches that one must look within one's self in order to discover the answer to the most pressing questions that exist. They teach that personal enlightenment is the key to bringing about a lasting and eternal peace. Part of the nature of enlightenment is looking to the future and working how to make it into a brighter tomorrow. Selune is generous with the answers to life and the universe so long as that is used to make the world a better place.
Charles Phipps 02-01-08, 01:29 PM	Asmodeus (The Adversary of the Gods, The Prince of Darkness, The King of Hell) Greater God of The Nine Hells Portfolio: Evil Alignment: Lawful Evil Aliases: Ahriman, Iblis, Lucifer, Shaitan Superior: None Allies: Bane, Gargauth, The Lords of the Nine, Set, Shar, Velsharoon Enemies: Ao (self-declared), Bahamut, Jazirian, Lathander, Torm, Tyr, Tymora Symbol: A Snake coiled around a Ruby Rod Domains: Charm, Darkness, Fire, Law, Evil Asmodeus (AHS-Mo-Deus) isn't as brilliant and powerful as his propaganda portrays him to be. Unfortunately, he's close and few beings in the whole of the cosmos can match the cunning planner for games within games. His arrogance is beyond belief and he foolishly believes he can challenge the Overgod but that doesn't mean that he's not right. Asmodeus originated the classic horned human with a tail and cloven hooves look. Really, most human beings will never be remotely interesting to earn an audience with Asmodeus and those that do had probably best wish it had never occurred. History and Relationships: Asmodeus has spread much misinformation about himself. His true origins are both more and less impressive than his claims. During the early days of the cosmos, Asmodeus was a Demiurge of the Gods. A Demiurge is roughly somewhere between a God and a angel in power. They were a type of being that handled much of the 'grunt work' of shaping the cosmos. Asmodeus is thus on par with Corellon Latherian, Moradin, Selune, Shar, and other deities that remember the beginning of the cosmos. He remembers when the Primordials were defeated by his kind and beings like Ghaundaur were sealed away. Eventually, Shar grew annoyed with the static perfection of the Demiurges whom were the first creations of the gods but had never really struggled to reach their exalted positions but were merely 'born' perfect. Thus, did Shar bring evil into the universe by asking Ao for permission to grant them free will. Asmodeus immediately lead a revolt of about a third of the angelic host in the cosmos. Frankly, Asmodeus was too flush with his sense of power to realize how badly outmatched he was even without the realization that two thirds of the god's servants had chosen to remain loyal. It is said that they did manage to kill one deity, however. That deity was said to be the Patron God of Humanity. For this crime, a powerful god tore open a hole in reality and banished Asmodeus to the deepest depths of the cosmos. Varying acounts of the legend suggest the god was Amaunator, Bahamut, Jazirian, Lathander, Pelor, or Mitra. As a further insult, Ao himself then proceeded to curse the rebellious angels with horrendous ugliness that matched their spirits. Asmodeus would spend countless millenia learning and plotting in the desire to eventually avenge himself on the whole of creation. Asmodeus would keep his enemies distracted as he slowly built up his forces by waging an untold millions of year long conflict with the forces of the Abyss. Asmodeus would even demean himself to the point of serving as Bane's major dormo when the newly created Tyrant God set himself up as King of Hell. Recently, Asmodeus' plans have been slowly coming to fruition. Vecna was little more than his catspaw when he nearly devastated the Multiverse. However, it laid the ground work for the Spell Plague and his most audacious deed yet. Unknown to the rest of the gods, Gargauth was little more than a renegade avatar of his that existed to gather the divine spark that Asmodeus would need to ascend to godhood. Empowered by the souls of countless millions imprisoned in his domain, Asmodeus immediately ascended to godhood and lured the Even-Handed God to his realm. There Tyr was imprisoned and continues to undergo torment designed to break his unbreakable spirit. Tymora, likewise, has been captured and replaced by the Deceiver with his daughter Glaysia. It was Asmodeus, in Tyr's form, who slew Helm the Guardian while playing the part of the jealous lover and Tymora the bashful maid. Frankly, it's a trifle insulting to both goodly gods that the other deities didn't realize something was entirely wrong with this scenario. Even with the unfathomable power that Asmodeus wields, he will soon run out of the tremendous soul energy that allows him to fool the gods. Furthermore, some like Ilmater, have sensed the pervading unnaturalness that has overtaken Mount Celestia. Asmodeus must work subtlety but quickly to corrupt as much of the late Helm's faith and Tyr's own lawful servants to his worship before is forced to retreat back to his dark domain. The Spell Plague has furthermore prevented most beings from looking too deeply into the matter. Asmodeus' cult was already firmly established in the Forgotten Realms but now he's receiving the worship and fear of the entirety of the Lords of the Nine's faithful. The Spell Plague has shattered many people's trust in just gods. Asmodeus' new clergy, called "Advocates" often offer people the return of precious loved ones or other great gifts in exchange for worship. This preying on the weak and those who lost their gods will probably allow the Prince of Darkness to maintain his power when his ruse as Tyr's replacement is found out. Ao help the Realms. Dogma: Asmodeus' faith is one that speaks plainly to its faithful. Asmodeus is going to destroy the gods up to and including Ao. Asmodeus is then going to take all the just and noble spirits of every being that has ever lived before casting them into a lake of fire where he will torment them for all eternity. The Prince of Darkness will then wipe all mortal culture on every world and enslave their kind so that existence in Hell or the Prime Material Plane is largely indistinguishable. All who do not serve Asmodeus will face this fate.
DarkSongKnight 02-01-08, 02:17 PM	Malcanthet Thats a very interesting take on Malcanthet in the Realms. I never would have guessed she might team up with Talona. Its very plausible though, seeing as how that would allow her to prey on Loviatar's followers. It has a sense of irony about it too, which is great. I find myself hoping that she eventually merges with or is absorbed by Loviatar. That would certainly be a very tempting goddess. I admit, I'm a little disgruntled at how they're making succubi devils instead of demons. It just doesn't sit well with me, as I don't really see a succubus being Lawful by honoring deals and such. They're known for their keen betrayals after all... I guess demons are being reduced to "Must kill!" brutes without the ability to do anything substantial. Oh well, at least theres still Graz'zt. Selune Yes! You made Sehanine/Selune Neutral Good. I've always thought she should be that alignment. She seems too peaceful and otherworldly to be concerned with chaos or law, in my opinion. Being the patroness of monks seeking enlightenment is nice too. Making Mielikki responsible for good and neutral lycanthropes is another smart move. Now its more of a Malar v.s. Mielikki situation, which is a more appropriate rivalry. Asmodeus Intense. Destroying all the gods? Him and Shar could be an almost unbeatable team. :eek: Nice take on the Helm/Tymora/Tyr event. Evil has definitely gotten smarter. Your ideas are well thought out and very intriguing. Should I go into 4e, I will most definitely put them to good use (hopefully to explain some of the bizarre changes that have inevitably occurred). Thanks for taking the time to post them here. :) On a side note, do you have any thoughts on how Shadow (as in Shadow Weave) magic might work after the Spellplague? The Shadow Weave Magic feat requires either Wis 15 or your patron deity to be Shar to access it. While I'm pretty sure that the Shar option is gone, would you still require the other?
XHereticX 02-01-08, 02:24 PM	Wonderful, wonderful. I especially like Asmodeus taking his traditional Luciferian position as Nemesis of the Gods, Oppositioner, and Corruptor of purity. But still, you gotta do Merrshaulk, and maybe a little something on Tharizdun as well.
Wire 02-01-08, 08:07 PM	Charles, If you are interested in statting out Murdane (who I don't think has been in any prior WotC/TSR publication), you may want to reference this informative thread at Candlekeep. George Krashos has an interesting take on her. http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7762
XHereticX 02-01-08, 08:17 PM	Charles, If you are interested in statting out Murdane (who I don't think has been in any prior WotC/TSR publication), you may want to reference this informative thread at Candlekeep. George Krashos has an interesting take on her. http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7762 Interesting, if Murdane is the firstborn, and Valigan is the thirdborn (by born I assume they are the children of Auppenser), who's the secondborn?
Charles Phipps 02-01-08, 08:33 PM	Thats a very interesting take on Malcanthet in the Realms. I never would have guessed she might team up with Talona. Its very plausible though, seeing as how that would allow her to prey on Loviatar's followers. It has a sense of irony about it too, which is great. I find myself hoping that she eventually merges with or is absorbed by Loviatar. That would certainly be a very tempting goddess. It was a fun bit of serendipity where I realized that Loviatar was Lawful Evil yet I noticed that Talona was Chaotic Evil. There seemed an ample chance to finally do something with a goddess that I felt was underused. Personally, I like giving Talona a "Sexy but Unhealthy" side. Oh well, at least theres still Graz'zt. Gra'azt in my Realms has a surprisingly important role to play in the wake of Asmodeus' ascension. Yes! You made Sehanine/Selune Neutral Good. I've always thought she should be that alignment. She seems too peaceful and otherworldly to be concerned with chaos or law, in my opinion. Being the patroness of monks seeking enlightenment is nice too. Yes, fundamentally I felt we were missing a Deity of Wisdom and Guidance. Furthermore, I always felt that Selune never felt very chaotic. The fact that Shar was Neutral Evil helped further cement my opinion. Making Mielikki responsible for good and neutral lycanthropes is another smart move. Now its more of a Malar v.s. Mielikki situation, which is a more appropriate rivalry. Mielikki is one of the goddess' most changed by the Spell Plague in my games. Intense. Destroying all the gods? Him and Shar could be an almost unbeatable team. Nice take on the Helm/Tymora/Tyr event. Evil has definitely gotten smarter. Yes, I'm particularly pleased I could use him without diluting the other gods. The "Asmodeus is Tyr" isn't a perfect fix but I like it. Your ideas are well thought out and very intriguing. Should I go into 4e, I will most definitely put them to good use (hopefully to explain some of the bizarre changes that have inevitably occurred). Thanks for taking the time to post them here. Thanks. Wonderful, wonderful. I especially like Asmodeus taking his traditional Luciferian position as Nemesis of the Gods, Oppositioner, and Corruptor of purity. But still, you gotta do Merrshaulk, and maybe a little something on Tharizdun as well. Thanks man. Will do. Charles, If you are interested in statting out Murdane (who I don't think has been in any prior WotC/TSR publication), you may want to reference this informative thread at Candlekeep. George Krashos has an interesting take on her. http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7762 This will be quite helpful. And FYI... On a side note, do you have any thoughts on how Shadow (as in Shadow Weave) magic might work after the Spellplague? The Shadow Weave Magic feat requires either Wis 15 or your patron deity to be Shar to access it. While I'm pretty sure that the Shar option is gone, would you still require the other? Well I handled the spell-plague a bit differently in canon, so this won't work perfectly. The Spell Plague and Magic Effects in Toril-616 The Spell Plague strikes Abber-Toril with a massive overload of magical energy that threatens to destroy the entirety of the cosmos. For wizards, this strikes them especially hard as they must make a Will Saving Throw (Diff 15 + 1 per level in your Spell Casting Class) or become subject to a Permanent Cause Insanity Spell that shifts your alignment to Chaotic Neutral or Evil. Those who MAKE the save, immediately are reduced to 1st level casters as they are are able to seperate themselves form magic in time. Oddly, the easiest solution is to actually go insane and recieve a Cure Insanity spell from a priest. Unless one has one handy, one is likely to cut a bloody and mad swath across Faerun. However, those who hope to regain their magic post the plague have a much more long and difficult road ahead of them as they must make a Spellcraft check once every month with at least 1,000 Gold pieces per level of materials to regain their existing levels. This is by learning to bypass the Weave and channel magic through other avenues. These avenues, post-Spellplague will be using Elementals/Outsiders/Focusing Objects/Nature and other gods for the refining of magic. Ultimately, the Weave heals to a certain degree despite being non-sentient [Editor's Note: this is due to the fact Mystra isn't dead in our campaign. The Weave was just horffically damaged and Shar had Mystra imprisoned after she was reduced to a Demigod]. The Shadow Weave, ironically, becomes permanently bonded with the Negative Material Plane that gives it a limitless source of power. Shar finds it impossible to control at this point and wizards learn to refine their techniques for studying it (Velsharoon also shares the secret liberally as does Cyric, whom people forget is a God of Illusion). However, Shadow Weave Users are still almost primarilly composed of insane and gloating lunatics as opposed to healthy and rational adults. This is due to the fact most are worshipers of one of the three evil deities while others are drawn by the Negative Material Plane. Like necromancy, this is not innate to the Shadow Weave but most of them end up gloating Palpatine-esque figures.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 08:40 PM	Hmm, are you going to follow up on the idea that Graz'zt was the result of a one night stand between Asmodeus and Pale Night? It would make sense, since Graz'zt has always displayed many diabolical traits.
Charles Phipps 02-01-08, 08:52 PM	Hmm, are you going to follow up on the idea that Graz'zt was the result of a one night stand between Asmodeus and Pale Night? It would make sense, since Graz'zt has always displayed many diabolical traits. I always felt that it sort of undermined the ability of Chaotic Evil to effective schemers, I still maintained the Emperor was Chaotic Evil by Return of the Jedi. He just was very good at covering up his "random acts of insanely evil slaughter." Of course, in one of my in-game legends, Gargauth was the child of Shar and Asmodeus and Gra'azt was just an alias of his since he cared nothing for the Blood War and wanted to harness Demon Kind for the assault on Good. So, that's the height of hypocrisy on my end ;-)
XHereticX 02-01-08, 09:02 PM	I always felt that it sort of undermined the ability of Chaotic Evil to effective schemers, I still maintained the Emperor was Chaotic Evil by Return of the Jedi. He just was very good at covering up his "random acts of insanely evil slaughter." I personally think that the Emperor is Neutral Evil. He is the very definition of a self-serving manipulator who's only motive is personal gain. He dosen't believe in any greater principle or any legacy of the sith crap, and just throws around wild plots that may or may not give him more power. Kind of like Mask in a way.
Charles Phipps 02-01-08, 11:51 PM	Graz'zt (The Anti-God, The Dark Prince, The Son of the Devil, The Lord of the Living Abyss) Portfolio: None Alignment: Chaotic Evil Aliases: Astaroth, Gargauth, Morgoth Superior: None ("Patronized" by Asmodeus, Cyric, and Shar simultaneously) Allies: Asmodeus, Cyric, Iuz (not found in the Realms), Shar, Velsharoon Enemies: Azuth, Demogorgon, Ghaundaur, Orcus, Sune, Torm, Waukeen Symbol: A six fingered hand covered in jeweled rings Domains: None (Most commonly granted by his patrons are Charm, Evil, Destruction, and Nobility) Graz'zt is, arguably, the most powerful Demon Lord in the Abyss. While Orcus' once held supreme and unchallenged dominion over Demon Lords in Abber-Toril, Graz'zt's star has started to eclipse him in the wake of the Spell Plague and that's gods unfortunate luck post resurrection. Few individuals speak of The Dark Prince aloud but many secretive cults and societies venerate him as they work their obscene rites for power. This is just the way Graz'zt likes it. Graz'zt prefers appearing as a tremendously tall and disgustingly handsome Devil. While ostensibly comely, his inhuman appearance' chief attraction is an unholy magnetism that inspires raw lust in the most chaste souls. Graz'zt enjoys making a mockery of the human need for companionship and will often exploit his followers with the belief he loves them above all others. Even those amongst his faith whose tastes do not flow to men find themselves succumbing to his dark charms. History and Relationships: Legends abound about Graz'zt's origins with the most common ones being that he is the Pale Night's child by an unknown father (if such a being needs a father) or that he was spontaneously generated by the Abyss at the insistence of the Elemental Evil Ghaundaur. The actual truth of the origin is shrouded in mystery but some would indicate his ties to Asmodeus might well make sense of his curiously convoluted plans for a being of supposedly Pure Chaos. Graz'zt has made numerous prior ventures into the Forgotten Realms but never really managed to establish a sustainable cult to himself. His latest gamble to seize the divinity of Waukeen for another cats paw child of his was one that ended poorly for the Demon Lord. His previous incarnation in the Realmspace section of the Abyss was totally destroyed by Waukeen in revenge. Graz'zt still considers it an affront that he lost such a valuable portion of his essence to what he terms a "minor money changer god." The Spell Plague allowed Graz'zt to send another incarnation through to the Realms as magicians turned to Demon worship, summoning forth yet another version of his evil essence. Asmodeus' ascension offered him a rare opportunity as it left Gargauth, already just an offshoot of his parent deity, particularly vulnerable. A group of rag tag adventurers, as if there was any other kind, managed to destroy Gargauth's powerless avatar as Asmodeus discarded the now useless tool. Graz'zt has since stepped into the shoes of the late Lord of the Tenth's shoes and taken over where most of that beings activities left off. The Knights of the Shield and other groups controlled by the late Gargauth have noted an increasingly debased slant to their works but very little has actually changed. Asmodeus cares only for the spread of evil now that he's a god and encourages Graz'zt in his subversion of the possessions of the former 'Lord of the Tenth.' Graz'zt has already managed to take control over the Iron Throne in addition to the Knights of the Shield with both groups likely to become as powerful as the Zhentarim with time. Graz'zt has also offered his services to Cyric with the Dark Sun desperate enough to let the Demon Lord have free reign in guiding certain parts of his church. Unsurprisingly, Graz'zt manages the portions of Cyric's church under his control better than the Dark Sun. Shar and he have also agreed to a treaty of non-aggression with the Lady of Loss letting him run wild in areas where her church is powerful. Graz'zt, surprisingly, has no interest in actually becoming a deity. The Dark Prince recognizes he can wield more authority as First amongst Demon Lords than he ever could as just another evil god. Nevertheless, he routinely tries to make patrons of gods and is intelligent enough to manipulate some younger ones completely (such as Cyric). Dogma: Graz'zt is a god of noble decadence in the Realms. He favors the corrupt, intelligent, hedonistic, ruthless, and in that order. Graz'zt encourages his followers to accumulate wealth and power before abusing it in ways that makes the commoners envy them rather than simply loathe them. Graz'zt's faithful are just as likely to be utterly vapid and vain fools enslaved by his cult or genuine megalomaniacs that are certain the Demon Lord intends them to rule the world. Many of his faithful believe they have the intimate confidence and even love of their god when he grows bored of most of them within hours.
SmartPaladin 02-02-08, 02:46 PM	Not bad. I honestly think of all of the Deities, Hoar would be best suited as a ally of Kelemvor. Granted there's also a part of me that enjoyed the image of him serving under or even in the "new" Triad. While I'm not so sure about Hoar giving up Vengeance, I would think it safe to say that Kelemvor would let him keep Poetic Justice. It would be much more fitting after all. All and all, I've enjoyed this thread, and I look forward to see who's up next. :)
Charles Phipps 02-03-08, 09:43 PM	The Faith of the Triad (The Faith of the Triad, The Church of the Three, The Holy Triad, The Triune Gods, The One Church) Portfolio: See Tyr, Helm, Ilmater Alignment: Lawful Good Members: Ilmater, Torm, Tyr (formerly)/Nobanion, Bahamut, Torm Allies: Bahamut, Siamorphe, Helm, Red Knight (formerly)/Red Knight Enemies: Cyric, The Dark Triad, The Second Dark Triad, Shar, Xvim Symbol: A warhammer with a thin head and two sides. Domains: Goodness, Law, Healing, Protection Worshipers Alignment: LG, NG, CG, LN, N, CN, LE The Faith of the Triad is probably the single largest religious entity in Faerun with the possible exception of the Church of Lathander and the veneration of Chauntaea. Certainly, it is the faith that holds the single largest collection of individuals who worship in an singular manner that venerating the gods as the need suits them. History and Relationships: There's something distinctly un-Realms like about the Church of the Triad that strongly encourages veneration of the Triad above all other deities and their blessings in lieu of nearly every other divinity. The Triad does not declare the other gods to be false, save in the case of demons or other non-outsiders but it believes that the gods they worship have a hold on the truth of the universe in a excess of all others. Part of the key to the Faith of the Triad's success is its organized heirarchy, based out of Waterdeep, that allows it to be able to coordinate most of its efforts. The fact that the Church is actively crusading, charitable, and evangelistic helps keep its forward momentum in growth. Much of the Northlands and a good portion of the Sword Coast pay at least lip service to the Faith of the Triad. The Faith of the Triad is organized into a collection of Priests, High Priests, and Grand Priests who answer to the Patriarch/Matriarch of the faith. The system has been so successful that some other churches have adopted something similiar for their own faiths. It should be noted that the Faith of the Triad is not the ONLY church of Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater but those who choose to worship these gods outside of the faith tend to do so on their own bidding or out of personal calling. The Church's primary goals is the elimination of evil, which it accomplishes in a vareity of ways. The Clergy who devote themselves to Torm tend to take the active fight against evil. They prefer to adventure into lawless regions and inspire heroes to rise up against horrible injustices. The Clergy of Tyr tend to focus on solidyfing the rule of law in existing areas. Many wandering priests of Tyr are accepted as de-facto Magistrates or Judges in areas that do not have ready access to legal parties on on their own. Most Tyrites tend to focus on propping up benevolent regimes or making just decisions than actively adventuring though this is not always the case. Ilmater's faithful focuses on the healing of the wounds and charitable works with its primary goal being that the "Lost" will not fall thorugh the cracks. The Faith of the Triad has been known to apply the mantle of Sainthood onto a number of existing gods whom it is believed it is 'proper' to pray to. Saint Bahamut, Saint Nobanion, Saint Helm, and Saint Siamorphe were all gods that the Triad's worshipers prayed to without any remonstration from the existing clergy. Variants on the faith applied the title to any non-evil god but the process was usually limited to those deities that dwelled in the House of the Triad on Mount Celestia. One persistent heresy in the faith is the cult of "Saint Xvim" whom is frequently cited by human racists and individuals who despise other faiths as the 'One True Way' of the Triad. Xvim masterminded this predominately Lawful Evil cult to undermine the Triad but has been shocked and pleased that it's so successful in some regions. The cult teaches that Xvim is actually the son of Tyr and his destined heir rather than that of Bane. Many radical offshoots of Helm's faith acknowledging Xvim amongst their own Saints have only strengthened the erroneous assumption that the heresy is tolerated. Helm and Siamorphe's faiths were allied with the Church of the Triad during the height of the faith with both not really appreciating the frequent assumption they were little more than arms of the Triune Church. Nevertheless, both faiths were strongly allied and benefited from the association with the strong arm of the Church of the Triad. Helm's faith, however, was able to thrive independently in ways that Siamorphe's was not in many places that the Church of the Triad was distrusted as a foreign influence. Recently, the events in the House of the Triad have utterly splintered the faith. Helm's death at Tyr's hands has caused the Church of Helm to sever all ties with the Church of the Triad when not actively fighting. Furthermore, Ilmater's faith has largely broken away from the Church of the Triad to become its own independent source though relations are considerably more friendly. Bizarrely, even Torm's faith seems to be rather cool in behavior towards Tyr due to the God of Truth picking up that there is something distinctly off about Tyr's recent behavior. Bizarrely, close to 60% of the Church of The Triad has started revering Torm and a new set of gods called 'The Second Triad' with many Helmites and Tyrites defecting to the faith along with members of their allies. The growing faith in Bahamut in the North and the scattered worshipers of Nobanion have also joined in. Bahamut is providing the wisdom that Tyr, still secretly replaced by Asmodeus, used to provide Torm while the Truth God remains the ostensible leader of the new group. It remains to be seen if this new Triad will replace the old or whether Tyr will ever be restored to his former throne. Right now, many formerly allied knightly and spiritual orders are practically at each other's throats while heresies to Xvim or influenced by Cyric grow. Dogma: The Church of the Triad actively encourages individuals to live ordered lives in accordance with the Law of the Land so long as that order is just. They are encouraged to be active in their aiding of their fellow man and not to be passive citizens when there is injustice to be found. Strangely, the Church of the Triad's hierarchy is less conservative than their lay worshipers tend to be as they are far more concerned with genuine evil than the various minor vices that their layity indulge themselves with. The Triadites tend to believe they can serve good better by working with the law than against it but their fundamental loyalty is always to good with the legal system merely being the best way to reach it in their opinion. One should never choose the later over the former and the Church has many pardons for those who break local law in the service of Justice. They, furthermore, do not recognize the legal authority of nations like Thay or Zhentil Keep. Triadites are less than friendly to groups like the Harpers and Lords of Waterdeep due to the fact they are actively opposed to secrecy. This relationship isn't openly antagonistic but the groups have very different beliefs about how to best go about saving the world from evil. This has always been a point of contention between the Church of Piergerion whom is a member of both the Hidden Lords and one of the highest ranking knights of Tyrs clergy. He's been gentle but firm in suggesting that he will not attempt to become King of Waterdeep but merely remain the Open Lord.
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 12:50 AM	Auppenser (Our Lord of Reason, The Master of Thought, The Monk Master, The Serene One) Demigod of Mechanus Portfolio: Auguries, Focus, Foresight, Insight, Monks, Ki, Psionics Aliases: Savras Alignment: Lawful Neutral Superior: Oghma Allies: Azuth, Deneir, Lliira, Selune Enemies: Ilsensine, The Lich Queen of the Githyanki (Non-Divine), The Wizard God of the Githzerai (Non-Divine) Symbol: A third eye over a person's forehead Domains: Balance, Mentalism, Oracle, Psionics Favored Weapon: Quarterstaff Auppenser (Op-Pen-Sir) has woken up to better days. Finally awake, he's appalled to discover that most of the continent of Faerun has forgotten that he ever existed. The Time of Troubles, the deaths of so many gods, the changing of the planes, and so many other conflicts have left him a bit overwhelmed. Auppenser chooses to appear as a young, athletic, bald headed man in a long monk's robe when he manifests. The god's current form is chosen for it's reassuring aspect. When he wishes to show his divine nature, he opens a third eye that blazes with a glorious light. Oftentimes, Auppenser will wield a Quarterstaff in combat. He has shed much of the image of his ancient self to better acclimate to the new Realms. History and Relationships: Auppenser fell to ruin due to a lack of worshipers but was preserved from oblivion thanks to the magic of Mystra. Ironically, it's thanks to the death of Mystra that he awoke. The god was flooded with magical energy that allowed him to wake from his stasis and the prayers of many magicians turning to psionics in the wake of the Spell Plague was enough to stabilize him. Most of the gods that knew Auppenser in his waking years are either gone or changed drastically. The death of Savras and the ascension of Selune has given Auppenser something of a place in the new pantheon. Selune has agreed to sponsor the role of psionics in the Realms before turning over the portfolio for himself in a characteristic act of generosity. Likewise, Oghma has agreed to accept the mentalist into his service. Strangely, Auppenser's most helpful ally during all of this has been Lliira. The goddess of Martial Arts has long been a peculiar patron for the devotions of many monastic orders. She's agreed to have her faithful introduce the god to many of her more Lawful faithful on the promise that he not attempt to seize the portfolio of martial arts. Their mutual hatred of slavery has also helped smooth things over. Frankly, such cooperation amongst the divine was unheard of in Auppenser's day and he can't understand how things could have changed so drastically (having not experienced the Time of Troubles first hand). Currently, Auppenser's major goal is to re-establish him as a recognized force amongst the Realms and also help bring some of the chaos of the world back under control. His disgust for the Illithids and the Githyanki are removed concerns for much of the populous in the wake of the Spell Plague but he is careful to keep a close eye out for them. Due to the damage that's been done by the Spell Plague, his priests are open with their presentation of Psionics as an alternative to the damage of the Spell Plague. A small but significant portion of Mystra and a slightly larger Savras' faithful have heard the benefits of psionics to the point that they are willing to switch over. Auppenser has more or less resumed his conflict with the God of the Illithids and the Githyanki cult to their Lich Queen as if it had never abated. Oddly, in the chaos of the Spell Plague, Auppenser is debating the possibility of launching an attack to finally destroy the ancient undead monarch. In the meantime, Auppenser has begun courting the support of outer planar worshiping Githzerai by appearing as an aspect of Zerthimon. Though it costs Auppenser a portion of badly needed energy, any Arcane Wizard or Sorcerer that wishes to switch over to his service can call upon Auppenser with a 10% chance of him answering (this will increase to 20% if suitable offerings are made of incense and meditation). A sufficiently determined wizard or sorcerer eventually WILL be answered if he's sincere. Auppenser will then offer the "Reckoning" which will transform all of their current levels from their present class to Psionicist or a similar Psi-based class. Auppenser is likely to disregard this gift in the future but it has worked wonders for many magicians sick of their non-functioning spells. Almost the entirety of Mystra's monastic orders have since switched over to Auppenser as well, giving the god of Psionics a disproportionate number of monks to priests and laity. The god has been encouraging them to go forth and fight the chaos of the Spell Plague in order to make the world more suitable for the way of enlightenment that the God of Psionics preaches. He has no real enimity for the majority of the gods of evil but their uncultured and monstrous ways offends him on a profound level. Dogma: Auppenser fosters that one should develop one's internal abilities to their maximum extent. The abilities of the mind are simply the best key to unlocking one's hidden god-like potential. A rigid devotion to study and training is required for anyone who wishes to genuinely suceed at becoming one with the universe. In time, this study becomes unnecessary as the ways of the universe unfold at their own pace but the beginning of the road is extremely taxing. One should always look to the future and gain an appreciation for the likely outcomes before one chooses to act.
Craig C. 02-04-08, 03:41 PM	Nice take on Auppenser, Charles. Although I would swap out his Protection domain for the Oracle domain (located in the Complete Divine book - p. 140). Seems like a more appropriate fit.
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 06:23 PM	done.
Charles Phipps 02-05-08, 08:38 PM	Ulutiu (The Father of the Giants, The Jarl of the Frost Giants, The Ice King) Intermediate God of Ysgard Portfolio: Frost, Giants, Giant-Kin, Glaciers, Mead, Snow, Winter Aliases: The All-Father, Father Winter, Ymir Alignment: Lawful Neutral Superior: Tempus (arguable as Ulutiu treats him more like an equal) Allies: Tempus, Helm (former), Istishia, Selune, Tyr, Uthgar, Valkur Enemies: Auril, Kossuth, Talos, Umberlee Domains: Animal, Family, Protection, Strength, Winter Worshiper's Alignment: All Favored Weapon: Battle-Ax Ulutiu (pronounced oo-LOO-tee-oo) is one of the gods woken up by the infusion of the world with the power of the Weave. Ulutiu's awakening was as unpleasant as other forgotten deities for he found the Giant people scattered and largely forgotten. Many of Ulutiu's old enemies and allies had also gone to their eternal demise. Furthermore, he was heartily displeased to know that Auril had been attempting to devour his soul while he slept. Ulutiu appears, for the most part, as a white skinned and bearded giant draped in animal furs with an ax made of pure ice. This is an image that's rather classic by nature and one that's he's anxious to use. Ulutiu has been prone to start wearing an eye patch out of a desire to recover some of the human worshipers that long ago remembered similar tales of one eyed gods that bore wisdom. History and Relationships: Ulutiu intended his slumber to be eternal but the discovery that most of the giant gods had not survived the ensuing centuries, let alone the Spell Plague has spurred him to action. The deity has won over many tribes to his veneration in fairly short order and quite a few Giant-Kin peoples never forgot him. Part of this success is that Ulutiu is not afraid to take the names of dead but not forgotten gods that have powerful mythological reverence. Many children in the North pray to him since he's also adopted the imagery of local superstitions and legends. Ulutiu is a largely benevolent god that is somewhat weighed down by the fact that he doesn't quite grasp mankind has moved a little beyond the Dark Ages. To Ulutiu, you're doing fine if your family survives to the next winter with a full belly and enough drink to get you through the chill. That there's something more would probably confuse the frosty god. Surprisingly, he's had a major boost in his faith from lost Helm worshipers and other faiths that are eager for someone to protect them in the wake of their lost divinity. Ulutiu has established friendly ties to gods that were long ago his enemies under other names. Tempus, Tyr, and Helm were her alive would all welcome the familiar deity despite their ancient enmity. Selune and Istishia consider the god a welcome stabilizing influence on the forces of nature that have long been dominated by the Gods of Fury. Valkur is pleased to have the god at his back and feels that things are looking somewhat up for him. Uthgar actually despises him and all of giant-kind but, bizarrely, doesn't intend to let that interfere in friendly relations on a political level. Auril can feel her worshiper base dwindling and is horrified at the god's recent success. Fearing becoming the joke that she feels some goddesses of torment are, Auril is actively pursuing a war against Ulutiu who can't really understand why the woman seems so vexed at him. Kossuth has taken almost the entirety of Fire Giant worship on Faerun and their elemental enmity is something that can't really be easily resolved. Talos would personally like to destroy Ulutiu but, thankfully for the giant god's sake, the God of Fury wants to destroy a lot of things. Umberlee despises anything that protects sailors and other people from her wrath but mostly just rails at him rather than anything substantial. Ultimately, Ulutiu has no real overarching ambitions beyond aiding the giant races back to recover so that he is unlikely to become a major player in the upcoming conflicts. Honestly, Ulutiu had never even heard of Bane or Cyric before his awakening so that he finds it difficult to take them seriously as threats above all others. Dogma: Ulutiu teaches that individuals should respect the power of nature and mankind's relative vulnerability to it. Rather than attempt to rail against the power of winter, Ulutiu suggests his faithful learn to adapt to it. Morally, Ulutiu teaches that family is the most important thing there is and young. A clan should always place the well-being of its young above the health of the elderly or outside causes. Ulutiu's faithful should not go actively seeking trouble but respond in kind to any attacks against one of their own. Ulutiu is somewhat of a sexist god and his female priests are expected to be providers as well as home managers while the male are expected to be hunters or warriors. Both roles are tremendous positions of respect in Ulutiu's eyes but are decidedly different. Both men and women are expected to share duties and power in the home.
Craig C. 02-06-08, 02:53 PM	Ulutiu looks *fantastic*, Charles! I'd definitely like to borrow your modification of him for my FR campaign. BTW, just like I did with Auppenser, I'd like to offer you a suggestion for either an addition or a tweak to your domain assignment for Ulutiu. Primarily based upon your writings in the god's main text, portfolio, and dogma descriptions. For Ulutiu, I referenced my Frostburn book. Of the 2 new domains there, the Winter domain is an excellent thematic addition for the Big U. Especially with its bonus to WIS skills (being the one-eyed "wisdom" god you mentioned) and the ability to summon Frost Giants at later levels via Summon Monster domain spell. Morally, Ulutiu teaches that family is the most important thing there is ...Perhaps the Family Domain in the Spell Compendium?
Charles Phipps 02-06-08, 08:22 PM	Ulutiu looks *fantastic*, Charles! I'd definitely like to borrow your modification of him for my FR campaign. BTW, just like I did with Auppenser, I'd like to offer you a suggestion for either an addition or a tweak to your domain assignment for Ulutiu. Primarily based upon your writings in the god's main text, portfolio, and dogma descriptions. Thanks, that's the best compliment I can receive. I really liked your suggestions on domain and made it so for the write-up. I just liked the idea of a big Teddy Bear God who wasn't particularly interested in the stereotypical scheming of the rest of the pantheon. FYI, I haven't forgotten anyone's suggestions of what to post and will eventually get around to Murdane, Leira, Ibrandul, and the Yuan-Ti god. I will however, be posting where inspiration strikes me.
Charles Phipps 02-07-08, 08:27 AM	Tyr (The Even Handed, The Lawgiver, The Justicar, The Lord of Judgment) Intermediate Power of Mount Celestia Portfolio: Balance, Investigation, Judgment, Justice, Law, Ordeals, Trials Aliases: Lugh, Pholtus Superior: None (ostensibly Torm) Allies: Bahamut, Helm, Ilmater, Hoar, Kelemvor, Lliira, Oghma, Red Knight, Torm, Tymora Foes: Asmodeus, Bane, Cyric, Garagos, Ilmater (more precisely hostile), Mask, Velsharoon Symbol: Scales Domains: Good, Law, Protection, Retribution Worshipper's Alignment: LG, NG, LN, N, LE Favored Weapon: "Glorious Justice" (War hammer with resemblance to Gavel) Tyr (TEER) is currently still imprisoned in the Nine Hells but it is unlikely that said prison will hold him for long. Tyr has suffered a terrible blackening to his reputation thanks to the events of Asmodeus' impersonation of him and the loss of a dear dear friend. Furthermore, the imprisonment in the Nine Hells has changed the Lawgiver to the point that he's no longer the deity that he once was. Tyr, when he chooses to manifest, almost is entirely different from the god he once was. The most visible sign of his action is the fact that Tyr's eyes have apparently healed, though he still tends to wear a blindfold and he has taken to wearing a steel prosthetic over his maimed hand. Tyr also tends to be younger in appearance with a renewed vigor to his state, closer to middle age than old age. History and Relationships: The destruction of Helm at the hands of Asmodeus and the fact that his clergy amongst allies believed himself capable of such a terrible deed is something that struck Tyr far more horribly than any murder could have. His imprisonment at the lowest level of the Nine Hells had a different effect than the one Asmodeus intended, however, as it reminded Tyr that evil was something that one could never rest one's laurels on nor could one ever become less than perfect in fighting. When Tyr returns, a large portion of his faithful is going to be instructed to permanently move towards Torm has Tyr divorces himself from the trappings of what came before. The entire Realms will know countless sightings of the God of Justice as he hunts down the wicked but, more surprisingly, are devoted more to finding the innocent and protecting them from unfair retribution. Tyr will attract a new faithful that makes up a large portion of his resulting faith that are invigorated by a belief that the Law should be there to protect individuals, to be merciful when warranted, and to only bring down retribution when absolutely necessary. This results in a bizarre number of what, in other lands, would be called Crusading Defense Attorneys as much as the traditional Tyrean prosecutors. Tyr's new faithful will alienate much of his existing faithful, quite a few moved towards LN or even LE in the wake of Asmdoeus' possession, but the God of Judgement's new role will be a welcome one by the majority of Faerunites. Bizarrely, many Tyrites find themselves allying with individuals like the Lliirites or Tymora's faithful to protect the genuinely innocent. Many of the faithful even find themselves sent on missions via portents to protect those unjustly persecuted. Ilmater's friendship with Tyr has deeply suffered thanks to recent events and will be unsure if the God of Justice is genuinely true or another of Asmodeus' lies. Bizarrely, the deep rivalry that develops within his faith will be partially motivated by the fact that Tyr's faithful are slowly coming to be viewed as the god of mercy over the Suffering One. If Tyr acquires the portfolio of Mercy, he will likely return to the status of Greater God. Another option would be the deities come to terms and Tyr aquires the portfolio of Redemption. It will take much to reconcile the two gods. A "special project" of the new faithful will also be to gather up the holy artifacts of Helm, many held by Red Knight's Church or Asmodeus and Cyric's faithful. Tyr fully intends to somehow restore Helm to life to undo the injustice that was performed against his former friend. The problem is that so few people believe in the sincerity of the one that they attribute to killing him. Helm is unlikely to return to God status, having passed his portfolio off to Red Knight, but his restoration to some kind of Archangel like figure would do wonders for reconciling the Triad's former members. Many of Tyr's faithful will begin working vigorously with Oghma in the pursuit of better methods of acquiring knowledge of local law, customs, precedent in their passionate pursuit of truth. Eventually, this might apply to Gond as well while they learn to master methods of investigation (The Inquisitive class from Eberron is available at no-penalty to Multi-class in by Tyr's Clerics). Quite a few of the Watch in Faerun are utterly confused by the insistence on the importance of protecting the poor or despised in regions where such abuses are common. Indeed, more than one of Tyr's new faithful will be martyred in the pursuit of true justice. Tyr, unerringly, loathes Asmodeus and his corruption of the principles of Law. Asmodeus is likely to become a dire enemy of Tyr upon his resumption of Greater Godhood (The Devil God making the assumption that the Justicar's faithful is finished in the wake of his corruption). Likewise, Mask and Cyric are taken off guard with the over the top passion that the Tyrites pursue them. The zeal of the Tyrites being something that was usually reserved for Tormites. Bane will feel genuine pain at the hands of Tyr's presence with his version of the Law now utterly at odds with his own version. Dogma: Justice is not the Law. The law is a tool to facilitate Justice. Justice is a combination of discovering the truth, protecting the innocent, punishing the guilty, and showing mercy to those whom have violated the law but can be brought back into the folds of goodness. A person who is innocent should be protected from wrongful persecution and prosecution at any costs and the truth must NEVER be sacrificed for the sake of convenience or the benefit of those in power. It is better than ten murderers go free than one innocent man be hanged but a better solution is ten murderers be hanged with the innocent man going free with ten murderers redeemed being even better.
Charles Phipps 02-09-08, 02:07 AM	Wee Jas (Lady Death, The Vain Doom, The Stern Queen, The Ruby Queen of Death, The Mysterious Sorceress of the 5th Circle) Demigoddess of Carceri/Mechanus Portfolio: Alchemy, Doom, Legalism, Sorcerers, Summonings, Vanity, Warlocks Aliases: The Fourth Mystra Alignment: Lawful Neutral Superior: None Allies: Azuth, Deneir, Hoar, Kelemvor, Oghma Enemies: Cyric, Sune, Shar, Velsharoon Domains: Death, Law, Magic, Pact Favored Weapon: Dagger Wee Jas (WEE Ja-SS) is a newcomer to Toril's Crystal Sphere. As a complete unknown until recently, she's very slowly building her power base and contacting only a select few individuals and deities until she's ready to make her presence felt. Her influence is often felt strongly with those few individuals who know about her but secrecy is currently her greatest ally. Wee Jas appears as a beautiful redheaded woman with a midnight black gown with a silver skull on the belt buckle. Occasionally, she appears as the deathly pale version of Mystra to invoke the proper reaction but rarely does this as she's far too vain to use another god's image for anything other than an initial friendly reaction. History and Relationships: The slow dying nature of Oerth has always been troubling to Wee Jas as she seeks to preserve her divinity in the wake of the Suel's fall. One of her worshipers, traveling through the Plane of Shadow, chanced upon rumors of the Shade Empire before he emerged onto Toril. Sensing the devastation of the Spell Plague and that the world was without a goddess of magic, Wee Jas later appeared to her follower and had her lead several priests amongst a few other wizards to the land. Wee Jas is not a god unfamiliar to some deities on Toril and she approached these beings before petitioning Ao to allow her into the Realms. Wee Jas is currently alternating her stay in the Realms between the Fugue Plane and the House of Knowledge. Both Azuth and Kelemvor are strictly lawful deities whom have instructed their followers to provide her with complete aid in helping secure order across Toril. Due to the fact that most of her portfolios are taken on Abeir-Toril, she's acquired dominion over the unclaimed portions of them. Wee Jas is presently focused on quality over quantity as she's sent her Suel-based descendents to the wreckage of Halruaa in hopes of interbreeding with them. Wee Jas is a patient goddess and believes that the next Halruaa could well be the new Suel Empire. Presently, Wee Jas has missed much of her opportunity to claim the totality of Mystra's portfolio but Selune is a poor guardian in many people's minds. Currently, she's fostering a series of mystery cults and largely doing the dangerous act of appearing directly to followers. A large number of Faerun's Warlocks have either made their power pacts with either her or one of her Angelic or Devil minions (depending on their moral inclinations). Many of her minions have been instructed to provide direct magical instruction, in defiance of quite a few long standing treaties amongst the gods (that Wee Jas, of course, wasn't present for). Wee Jas is mostly encouraging her various cults to seek out forgotten magical items and riches in order to make her church more attractive. Her alliances are strong enough that, when combined with her magic, that most deities on Abeir-Toril don't actually know she exists. The exceptions are Shar and Sune. Sune will be outraged to find out that some of her clergy have been lead to follow the inferior goddess who claims to be more beautiful than she. Shar, on the other hand, is an enemy of Kelemvor and Azuth both whom would dearly like much of her faithful to be seduced away to Wee Jas' service. Wee Jas' church accumulates magical knowledge and wealth that will share with fellow worshipers, so long as they spread the faith and eventually give an equal or greater amount back in return. Wee Jas expects her faithful to be beautiful, brilliant, rich, magically inclined, and powerful. From that point, everything else will follow. One doesn't have to naturally be inclined to these qualities and quite a few of the spells her church offers exclusively are designed around making one more attractive or rich. Wee Jas is especially attractive to many magicians as she provides the secrets of Post-Spell Plague magic to any magician that pledges himself to her. This is a binding Geas that requires one to perform at least one major mission for the Church or suffer the consequences if one intends to convert afterwards. Wee Jas is sparing about these acts as, ironically, she'll be less free to act so directly when she's discovered by the other gods. Most of Wee Jas' efforts are focused on luring away Sunites, Sharites, and Velsharoon worshipers whose inclinations serve her. Some of Azuth and Kelemvor's followers have also come join her. When the time is right and she's moved up to a lesser goddess, most likely the Ruby Queen of Death will present herself as an alternative deity for magicians to Selune or Shar. Wee Jas despises Cyric's chaotic ways and hopes to seize Illusion from him as a stepping stone to the whole of magic. Wee Jas has no Paladins in her service, unlike most Lawful Neutral Gods (though this may change if she feels the need to prosecute her war against Shar or Velsharoon). However, she has a group of militant knights that are mostly heirs of magical orders that have fallen onto hard times. Bestowing special abilities and magic upon them, she has created the Ruby Knight Vindicators. They are expected to act within secret for the time being but have proven widely successful at their present tasks. It is likely Wee Jas will become a ally of Waukeen if that later deities association with Llirra doesn't bleed over into a alliance with Sune (in which case, Wee Jas will probably attempt to steal the Trade Goddess' portfolio). After all, all is fair in love and death. Dogma: Wee Jas is something of a practical goddess. The doctrine of the goddess is specifically spelled out. In addition to the Stern Queen being admired because (in her own words) she is the most beautiful and knowledge of gods, she is to be served because she will give measurable benefits to one's followers. Likewise, they are expected to behave in a fabulous and yet respectable manner with a hint of greater knowledge than those around them. The clergy also encourages followers to be ambitious. Wee Jas' one real moral commandment is that she's rigidly lawful and her faithful are expected to similarly be so. She has little care if one follows the law of Cormyr or Zhentil Keep but dislikes chaotic practices. However, Wee Jas would welcome a follower, good or evil, who chose to establish his own kingdom in her name. Also, one must remember that breaking the lower law of the land is preferable to the breaking the higher law of Wee Jas that requires one to obey her commands and spread the faith.
Charles Phipps 02-09-08, 03:25 AM	Red Knight (Lady of Strategy, Grandmaster of the Lanceboard, The Knight of Protection, The Scarlet Queen) Intermediate God of Arcadia Portfolio: Guardianship, Patriotism, Protection, Protectors, Strategy, Tactics Aliases: Athena, Dol Arrah, Ezra, St. Kateri Alignment: Lawful Neutral (w/Good Tendancies) Superior: Tempus Allies: Bahamut, Helm (formerly), Hoar, Kelemvor, Nobanion, Tempus, Torm, Tyr, Valkur Enemies: Cyric, Garagos, Talos, Shar Domains: Courage, Law, Nobility, Protection, Planning, War Favored Weapon: Longsword Red Knight (Red Knight) has benefited, arguably, most from the death of Helm. The God of Guardians saw his destruction coming, even if he could not deduce the specifics, and made preparations that his portfolio to pass to the only god that he believed worthy of the mantle of his divinity. Red Knight would much prefer the actual Helm to be back but has managed to establish herself over the vast majority of his former faithful in the past century. Indeed, Red Knight's church is slightly larger than Helms at its height and is still growing. Red Knight is a woman that prefers to appear as a Scarlet armored knight whose attire is functional rather than aesthetic. While an attractive female, she tends to accent her power and nobility in the same way as Torm over looks as other goddesses. Red Knight's shield bears a golden lion in recent years. History and Relationships: Red Knight was chosen as Helm's successor before his death and has since become a figure much like him. Primarily, Red Knight fights against the evil gods as a firm ally of the Triad but her own practicality and belief that war happens irregardless of good or evil has prevented her from being a total force for good. Red Knight has since become Torm's consort (and he hers) with the two faiths maintains a strong if slightly wary alliance. They are especially allied when faced against the forces of Chaos and destruction within their realms but tend to grow more distant in battles that Red Knight focuses on between Good or neutral sides. Ultimately, Red Knight's faithful favor the bold and do not hesitate to battle one another on the field if they believe in their cause (though are quick to offer mercy or an honorable surrender). The faith of Red Knight is widely regarded across much of Faerun due to the protection that its members offered during the Spell Plague. The Church would, arguably, be one of the most powerful were it not one of the most severely balkanized in the Realms. Red Knight's faithful are almost all totally loyal to their home nation with little loyalty to outside branches. Only Red Knight's paladins, who forswear nationalism as part of their duties to the good of all, are welcome at all of her churches. There is some mild dispute with her husband over the fact that he has the portfolio of Defense and she hopes to claim it (elevating herself to Greater Goddess status). Nevertheless, she worries the subtleties of the word are different in the ways they are interpreting it. Likewise, Red Knight's faithful in Zhentil Keep are allied with the church of Bane and it is a point of contention with her husband. She would like them to overthrow the Tyrant's Church but is more interested in protecting Zhentil Keep's faithful right now even if they have the most to fear from their leaders. Red Knight is still close to Tempus, though their relationship has cooled somewhat in recent years thanks to her firm alliance with Torm and his new Triad. She focuses most of her wrath against the chaotic deities and those focused on destruction in the Realms. Dogma: Protect your charges above all other things is the highest creed of Red Knight. Red Knight charges her faithful with being logical and well trained about all matters of combat. Red Knight disdains berserk combat or romanticizing war. Her faithful are expected to work to have the best equipment, training, position, and numerous plans to out think the enemy and turn their weaknesses to the winner's advantage. It is a remarkably unsentimental religion in most respects as it disdains that there is a moral high ground in war even as it does its best to minimize casualties in the pursuit of it while protecting non-combatants. Red Knight is associated with Wisdom in some parts of the Realms.
Craig C. 02-09-08, 07:48 PM	More terrific write-ups, Charles! :thumbsup: I just liked the idea of a big Teddy Bear God who wasn't particularly interested in the stereotypical scheming of the rest of the pantheon.Heh, that's funny. I like that angle a lot. It also has some good potential for comedy down the road as well. *** I've always loved Wee Jas the most amongst the Greyhawk deities. For a really terrific showcase article on her, see her big write-up expansion in Dragon Magazine #350. Also, one of the most popular PrCs of late over in the CharOps forum is the Ruby Knight Vindicator PrC located in the ToB. With your excellent FR-integration fluff you've written for Wee Jas, we all now have a solid way to semi-officially play the RKV PrC in the Realms. Hooray! I'd love to see you add a line or 2 in your Wee Jas write-up talking about this secretive military cult of hers. Especially since I like the way you associated the other ToB primary classes with the worship of Lliira. Last, after reading your detail of Wee Jas' deity information in the FR, I recommend you take a look at the Pact Domain in the Spell Compendium. Behold.... A large number of Faerun's Warlocks have either made their power pacts with either her or one of her Angelic or Devil minions (depending on their moral inclinations). Wee Jas is especially attractive to many magicians as she provides the secrets of Post-Spell Plague magic to any magician that pledges himself to her. This is a binding Geas that requires one to perform at least one major mission for the Church or suffer the consequences if one intends to convert afterwards. Seems the Pact Domain and its theme, portfolio synergy, and domain spells all tie-in nicely with your Realmsian Wee Jas. *** The way you evolved the Red Knight makes a lot of sense. BTW, I don't know of any Wisdom Domain. :confused: A possible substitute for Wisdom are the Competition or Courage domains. Both located in the Spell Compendium. Best regards, Craig
Charles Phipps 02-09-08, 08:36 PM	The Labyrinth Aliases: The Conspiracy of Lies, The Invisible Order, The Illuminated Brotherhood, The Black Hand, The Hollow Men, The Secret Knighthood, The Knights of Lies, The Throne of Man, and many others Portfolio: See Leira (and Cyric and Mask) Alignment: Chaotic Neutral (later Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil) Members: Leira (later Mask) Allies: Mask Enemies: All (Torm and Oghma are especially devoted to wiping out these morasses of untruths) Symbol: A square glyph symbol of bars that resemble a maze Domains: Charm, Deception, Illusion, Mist, Shadow Worshipers Alignment: LG, NG, CG, LN, N, CN, LE, NE, CE Leria (LEE-RE-Ah) was a goddess that had a small but dedicated following that was always increasing her worship but one could never really measure the successes thereof due to the fanatical secrecy that they coated themselves in. The organization has managed to survive its founder by many centuries and will likely to continue to go on til Toril's sun has burned its last. History and Relationships: The origin of Leira is a mystery, though the most commonly spoken tale is that she was the mirror reflection of Lliira that the goddess brought to life on a whim. According to the legend, Leira was Lliira's opposite in most ways and eventually fled from Arborea when her creator attempted to send her back into the mirror. Any public temple of Leira was almost certainly started by followers on their own initiative without the input of the goddess. Instead, Leira always attempted to have her faithful conceal their true identity. Any person that claimed to be a follower of Leira was almost certainly a liar since NOT denying one's faith, except in rare circumstances, was considered to be something of a minor blasphemy. Instead, Leira would approach followers and encourage them to create their own cults of personality around themselves. They would slowly broach individuals and initiate them into deep mysteries that Leira would provide to them in dreams. These sacred truths were often cryptic to the point of absurdity and filled with paranoid half-delusions that were unprovable but likely to appeal to the fears of their listener. These cults would then proceed to attempt to manipulate those outside the cult and initiate others into their secret mysteries. When a cult grew too large to be concealed, it's senior members were encouraged to split and create their own variants. As part of their desire to preserve their secrecy, these new members would be encouraged to conceal the whole truth from new members but slowly initiate them into the greater truths of the circle. Indeed, it was a part of their doctrine that the initial faith would be made to deliberately resemble something acceptable to the initiates in order to lure them in before they were ready for the truth. As one can easily imagine, these cults soon became dozens of minor cells and cults that had almost nothing to do with one another as members altered their doctrines beyond recognition or died before initiating individuals into the original version. Furthermore, Leira continued to create new cults that had nothing to do with one another but for their fundamental devotion to the Lady of Mists. In fact, it's quite likely that many of the cults frequently forgot their initial purpose of serving her and moved onto something else. Certainly, self-proclaimed members of the Church of Leira claimed that the Cult of the Dragon and the Knights of the Shield (amongst many other organizations) were initially branches of the faith. Ultimately, Cyric's murder of Leira gave him the bulk of her public worshipers but he never bothered to remotely approach the majority of her faithful that thrived on the lies she'd spun for them. Most of them simply switched to wizardry or other gods without missing a beat as their 'true purpose' was undiminished by time. These self-sustaining conspiracies have continued on without missing a beat post the Spell Plague. Mask's recent ascension to Greater God status has been accompanied by his slow takeover of the Labyrinth and reunification (such as it were). His agents are spending most of their time infiltrating the paranoid groups, eliminating their leaders, and compromising existing power structures. Ironically, they are slowly turning into the vast and Byzantine conspiracy that the people of Faerun always dismissed as a moronic concept of fools with too much time on their hands. Mask isn't sure if his work is truly worth the effort, given how ludicrous some of these groups are, but the initial successes and his own secretive nature have inclined him to start doing so. Then again, when he finally succeeds, he might well find Leira returning to claim what's rightfully hers... Dogma: A typical Labyrinth web might resemble this; A High Priest of Leira has charmed the head of the Knights of Tyr in a region to actively persecute the Cyricists in the region while paying homage to the Lady of Mists in secret. Likewise, she has an agent in the cult who is playing off the persecution to rise in rank. However, the cultists in the Cyricists actually believes she's working for The Church of Bane that she's privately started in her spare time. Her minion in the Church of Bane, has corrupted the worship of the Tyrant to revere instead Dragons that combine Tiamat and Bane into one concept while secretly paying homage to what he believes to be Shar in his basement. Ultimately, the faith of Bane-Tiamat will resemble Leira despite the Sharist thinking he's corrupting it to Shar. The Shar avatar in his basement is actually a succubus sent by Leira. At some point the Tiamat-Bane worshipers will foster their own priest whom will try and infiltrate the Drow by pretending to be a Lolthist. More often, Leira just ignores any semblance of connection and lets them just run wild with paranoia.
Charles Phipps 02-09-08, 08:40 PM	More terrific write-ups, Charles! :thumbsup: Heh, that's funny. I like that angle a lot. It also has some good potential for comedy down the road as well. Yes, I like the fun implication that Ulutiu gets a lot of his worship from kids praying to the Realm's version Santa Clause. I wonder if he'll enslave the elves of Lamauril's kingdom to make toys. I've always loved Wee Jas the most amongst the Greyhawk deities. For a really terrific showcase article on her, see her big write-up expansion in Dragon Magazine #350. Part of the inspiration here. Also, one of the most popular PrCs of late over in the CharOps forum is the Ruby Knight Vindicator PrC located in the ToB. With your excellent FR-integration fluff you've written for Wee Jas, we all now have a solid way to semi-officially play the RKV PrC in the Realms. Hooray! I'd love to see you add a line or 2 in your Wee Jas write-up talking about this secretive military cult of hers. Especially since I like the way you associated the other ToB primary classes with the worship of Lliira. Thanks, I made the change at your suggestion. Seems the Pact Domain and its theme, portfolio synergy, and domain spells all tie-in nicely with your Realmsian Wee Jas. Added. The way you evolved the Red Knight makes a lot of sense. BTW, I don't know of any Wisdom Domain. :confused: A possible substitute for Wisdom are the Competition or Courage domains. Both located in the Spell Compendium. Fixed. I forgot to add the home brew Wisdom domain but never mind. Posted the Leira religion everyone was asking for.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 09:37 PM	Wow, the Leira cult seems like a messed up version of the Freemasons.:eek:
Charles Phipps 02-10-08, 06:28 AM	This is another one of my "obvious real world parallels" divinities. Lathander (The Morninglord, The Risen Sun, The Lord of Rebirth, The One and All) Greater God of Elysium Portfolio: Dawn, Light, Males, Perfection, Renewal, Resurrection, Sexual Virility, Spring, Sun, Humans, Youth Alignment: Neutral Good Aliases: A'pollo, Amaunator, Corellon Latherian, Pelor, Prometheus, Mitra, Mithras, OA, Zarus (heresy) Superior: Ao Allies: Bahamut, Chauntaea, Mielikki, Mystra (formerly), Oghma, Selune, The Seldarine, Sune, The Triad Enemies: Cyric, The Dark Triad, Talos, Shar, Xvim Symbol: A Burning Bright Sun Domains: Good, Nobility, Protection, Renewal, Strength, Sun Favored Weapon: Quarterstaff Lathander (Low-Than-Door) is an *OLD* god. Some of the revelations about Lathander's true nature would probably crack the Realms in half. He is, arguably, the most popular god in the entirety of the Forgotten Realms with only Chauntaea's veneration possibly exceeding him. Lathander prefers to appear in un-intimidating forms for the most part as he would prefer to just 'hang' with his faithful than actively intimidate them. Lathander is a bit of a trickster and enjoys appearing as an entirely inconspicuous man before revealing his true form to test the moral caliber of his faithful. Other times, Lathander appears as a flaming plant or a vision of pure light that shakes the very heavens. Lathander is infamous for his various romantic adventures and these forms tend to be beautiful young men. However, Lathander is omnisexual like most Faerun gods and given birth on occasion as well. History and Relationships: You wouldn't know it from looking at him but when the universe exploded, Lathander was one of the first beings that was created (Indeed, some suggest that Ao's first command was "Let there be Light." and thus Lathander was born). It's very difficult to gauge just how powerful Lathander really is as even his avatars are often viewed as very powerful gods in their own right. It would horrify the elves to discover that Lathander is also the god Corellon Latherian. It would horrify them more to discover that they are but one of probably several thousand races that he's fostered throughout countless crystal spheres. Lathander loves them all in their own special way but the idea that they, humans, naga, or whatever are any more the 'favored children' of him would strike him as irritatingly stupid. Lathander is a habitual creator and constantly tinkering with life itself. The humans of the Forgotten Realms are just one of his many children with the original being the result of a dalliance with Chauntaea. This origin for mankind is rejected by those who venerate other deities but is certainly true for some of the humans on Abeir-Toril and most of modern man now shares a portion of the Morninglord's blood in them. What might shock the conservative amongst his religion is Lathander often renews himself in order to better appreciate the changing nature of the universe. His last incarnation, Amaunator, was voluntarily surrendered to death so that the God of Dawn might better be able to cope with a new age that needed someone softer and less harsh than than the Netherese god had grown over the millions of years he'd existed. He has allowed himself to die and be reborn to better appreciate the troublesome nature of human mortality. Lathander might well be able to lead the Toril pantheon's good gods if he chose to exercise his divine muscle but, like Selune, has chosen a different path. Lathander's humility is not without limits as the god's hatred of evil has occasionally caused him to embark on plans that others might call mad like his attempt to move the whole of Abeir-Toril into Elysium during the Dawn Cataclysm. It was this event that Lathander realized his Amaunator personality had grown unable to appreciate the simpler pleasures of life. Lathander is worshiped by most of the Heartlands of Faerun and quite a large portion of the Shining South. The gods faith varies drastically between the city based churches that tend to accent the dogmatic nature of his faith and the country versions that hold to a more mystical variant that is often combined with Chauntaea's worship. In general, the city based faith tends to be much more domineering and heavy handed to the point that some have embraced the "Risen Sun" heresy whole heartedly. Lathander works against the gods of evil but tends to take a long term view against them. Lathander only really considers Talos and Shar a long term threat since both of them are ancient deities like himself. In their case, he is more interested in combating what they represent rather than attempting to destroy them as a whole. Indeed, many evil deities would be insulted to discover that he considers them more to be combated by his clergy than himself personally. The exception to Lathander's laid back view is the cult of Ghaundaur. Lathander knows that the power that Ghaundaur represents is the one that is every bit as strong enough to take all of his power and then some to oppose. It is a secret church doctrine that any trace of Ghaundaur's worship is to be destroyed without hesitation or concern to the cost. Lathander knows well the original battles to tame the chaos of the universe and what unthinkable horror would emerge if the Elder Elemental Evil were to run free. On a lesser scale, Lathander is outright *angered* by Xvim's fostering of the cult of Zarus and may eventually be compelled to swat the Baneson along with the entirety of his faithful from the face of the cosmos. This may result in quite a few gods, briefly, turning against him. Lathander cannot abide evil worked in his name and the vengeance of the sun is unforgiving. Unlike other deity children, Lathander's progeny manifest themselves as Aasimar as a general rule. The God of Dawn frequently blesses his often hundred or more living progeny with good luck and interesting lives. Those few Lathander progeny that turn to evil are often the most dangerous enemies of his faith, however, as Shar desires to corrupt them to her service. Dogma: Lathander is an idealistic deity that rejects the concept of a balance as a whole but believes that someday the universe can be perfected by human choice to embrace good as a whole. What is specific in all texts is that Lathander refuses to force this choice upon man since abandoning the role of Amaunator. People should *want* to be become good by themselves. They should realize that evil is ultimately self-destructive and impotent on its own. Lathander's canon teaches that individuals should be friendly, laid back about issues of sexuality, merciful, and believers in redemption. They reject organized rules like the Triad in favor of a more blanket belief in general goodwill. This doesn't stop numerous restrictive LG churches popping up from time to time. The more chaotic branches of his faith have hurt the reputation of the god as a whole with some viewing Lathander as a divinity of shiftless layabouts.
XHereticX 02-10-08, 03:31 PM	Hmm, I can see a little bit of Zeus in him.;)
Craig C. 02-10-08, 03:51 PM	Reading the Dogma section of the Labyrinth hurts my brain. But in a good way! I would *love* to play in a FR campaign that emphasizes such tangled webs of scheming intrigue. {sigh} ... Charles, I'm a little confused by your write-up of the Labyrinth. As it doesn't explicitly state that Leira is actually alive and doing her deity mojo again on Abeir-Toril. Nor do I see any indication of what specifically happened to her once Cyric killed her. Now ... if your intention is to be somewhat abstruse and recondite about it (in typical Leiran fashion) ... then you definitely succeeded! Domain-wise, I think you got more of your homebrew domains there. Which is cool. I do the same thing as well. Otherwise, I'd give the Labyrinth the Illusion, Charm, Trickery, and Spell domains. *** Lathander looks way more complex and cerebral than in his current descriptions in the FRCS 3.X books. In addition, it would be quite fun to witness (and participate in!) a "love-in" co-sponsored by the clergy of Lathander who emphasize sexual virility ... and Sharess clergy who emphasize hedonism. Good times!
Charles Phipps 02-10-08, 03:59 PM	I got those domains from the Forgotten Realms wikipedia, so that would be where you'd have to check up. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Leira But those are viable domains, I'm sure. As for Leira in Universe-616, she's probably dead and killed by Cyric. However, the Labyrinth is such that it can continue indefinitely without its divine patron. Of course, it wouldn't be right to do a write-up on the Conspiracy without acknowledging the POSSIBILITY Leira decided to "die" for a hundred or more years. And Lathander is a cultural smorgusboard of various influences to be honest. You can see half-a-dozen deities or more in him. Honestly, I worried if he was a little too MUCH.
Craig C. 02-10-08, 05:32 PM	I double-checked the IMarvinTPA database, all my domain notes, CrystalKeep, etc. You are right about the Shadow domain. It's in the Eberron EbCS book p. 108. Mist and Deception do not exist in the official WotC 3.X game mechanics. Although they do in various D20/OGL company products. I'd be glad to put together a good take on both of them, though. Deception is kinda close to Trickery, and Mist to Air ... but there's enough non-core WotC spells spread throughout the various sourcebooks to make some cool and thematically-strong variants. Just to note, I've found a number of mechanically incorrect entries in FR Wikia (although I love it to death!). ... The way I kinda interpret your take on Leira is that her divinely-inspired conspiracies and machinations have somehow taken on a sentient life of their own. Similar to the way the monster type called "Living Spells" (MM3 and Eberron) gain life through magic-fueled abiogenesis themselves.
Storm_Silverhand 02-10-08, 05:47 PM	Heya, Charles, you're right. I don't like your take on Lathander. However, I'm not going to go into why - I'll just note a couple of spelling problems. It's "Abeir-Toril", not "Abber-Toril" (unless you've deliberately changed the name, since you've used that spelling in other places too, in which case ignore me), and "renew" not "reknew"... Just the ones that stuck in my mind, and I'm pretty sure there are others.
Charles Phipps 02-10-08, 06:02 PM	Heya, Charles, you're right. I don't like your take on Lathander. However, I'm not going to go into why - I'll just note a couple of spelling problems. Thanks for the corrections, I wrote that early in the morning and am horrified I didn't bother to spell-check. That's just unprofessional on my part. :( But I also like your dissenting opinions, S_SH. Please don't feel like you're being a broken record if you feel like you're repeating anything as well. I like all of your thoughts.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-10-08, 07:23 PM	I wouldn't mind hearing Storm's take on this Lathander, myself. I'm curious--if Lathander is the god of males, who represents females?
Charles Phipps 02-10-08, 07:29 PM	Chauntaea. Basically, Selune used to be the goddess of women but eventually gave that portfolio down to the Earthmother. My take on Chauntaea isn't just "hearth and home" though. She's a friendly, gentle, and kind goddess but.... We'll I'll just do up her write up and show you.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-10-08, 08:33 PM	OK, thanks, I'd like to see it.:)
Charles Phipps 02-10-08, 09:28 PM	OK, thanks, I'd like to see it.:) Well, I hope you like it. Chauntea (The Earthmother, The Fair Queen, The Harvest Mistress, Mother Toril) Greater God of the Prime Material Plane/Beastlands Portfolio: Abeir-Toril, Agriculture, Balance, Children, Family, Females, Fertility, Life, Summer, Humans Alignment: Neutral Good Aliases: Demeter, Gaea, The Earth Spirit Superior: Ao Allies: The Elemental Gods, Eilistraee, Kelemvor, Lathander, Mystra (formerly), The Seldarine, Silvanus, Shiallia, Lurue, Mielikki, Enemies: Auril, Shar, Talos, Umberlee, Velsharoon Symbol: A sheath of grain, The Planet Domains: Good, Protection, Renewal, Strength, Weather Favored Weapon: Sickle Chauntea (pronounced chawn-TEE-ah) is a goddess that few would believe was actually more powerful than Mystra at her height but beneath Ao, there is no god or god that approaches her power with the possible exception of Shar. Though discounted as a myth by some, Chauntea is the world of Abeir-Toril and a divinity that was born from the union of Selune with Shar during the early stages of the cosmos. Those who would attempt to rouse the wrath of the Fair Queen would do well to remember this. Chauntea tends to pick appearances based upon the Rashemen concept of a triple faced goddess. Indeed, their own worship is based on a corruption of the ancient legends of her. Chauntea appears as a beautiful woman in the prime of her life, a statuesque middle aged woman, and an aged woman of tremendous power mixed with wisdom. Much like Lathander and Sune, Chaunteais a goddess that often trysts with mortals and has born a tremendous number of children over the years that have gone on to many deeds both great and small. To be 'visited by the goddess' is considered a high honor in the faith. History and Relationships: Chauntea is as old as the very creation of Abeir-Toril; which makes her younger than Elder Gods like Selune, Shar, or her consort Lathander. Nevertheless, she is older than nearly every other divinity in the Faerun pantheon by leaps and bounds. Only the pantheon heads of the major races can claim anything close to her antiquity. Furthermore, she is the living incarnation of the world with a following that encompasses the continents of Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zhakara amongst other unnamed lands. While certain druids attempt to show Silvanus or the Elemental Gods as the equal of Chauntea, this is something of a misnomer. In matters of this Crystal Sphere, Chauntea reigns supreme and would probably be able to banish those gods should she choose to do so. The Earthmother is hyper-specialized with no real presence on other worlds, as far as anyone can tell, but even Talos treads lightly around the woman. Chauntea is responsible for the creation of most life on Abeir-Toril as well with the Creator Race owing its existence to her hand while humans being the product of her liaison with Lathander. Things like animals, insects, plants, and other beings are furthermore the goddess' creations. Chauntea maintains a vast collection of Animal Lords that dwell in the Beastlands until she calls them forth. Chauntea is a generally benevolent goddess with the belief that nature 'adapts' allowing most human works to go unpunished in a way that Silvanus can barely fathom. She, unlike Lathander, cares very little more the majority of moral dealings. The Earthmother has seen the beginning of time and will see the end of it in Abeir-Toril, so that very little shocks her or moves her to emergency. Nevertheless, she is known to punish severely those mortals who devastate the environment magically or abuse either women or children. Chauntea's church is so widely spread that its difficult not to trip over it in the Heartlands or Shining South. Only Lathander's rivals it in size and often its stated that people tend to revere other gods in addition to Chauntea as opposed to them totally. The exceptions to her near universal worship were primarilly in the regions where the Triad was formed, areas under the control of the Dark Triad, Demihuman lands, or the wizard nations like Thay or Halruaa. The average priest of Chauntea is not very powerful but few do not foster their power for minor blessings or healings. Perhaps more interesting to adventurers is the Earthmother's many cults that often rival some smaller god's entire faiths. With the fall of Mystra, Mystic Theruges have become a very common sight with the more esoteric nature of the Earthmother's faith being accented. Druids of Chauntea are amongst the most militant of her faithful as they attempt to annihilate the unnatural wherever it may be found. Bizarrely, quite a few Urban druids follow the Earthmother as they refuse to acknowledge buildings built of stone or wood are divorced from her. Chauntea has never fostered a Paladin before but the hatred of her druids towards the undead and outsiders might one day make it the case. Over the past century post the Spell-Plague, Chauntea has become known as the Goddess of Witchcraft. While she's largely given up magic to her mother Selune, Chauntea's witches are numerous and widely respected. They tend to be little more than hedge magicians but the slow spreading of magic throughout the whole of Abeir-Toril is likely to lead to a revival far stronger than anything a more forceful act would do. It should be noted that men serve often as much as women in Chauntea's faith despite the fact that she is the Goddess of Women. This is comparable to Lathander's Church whom many women join out of a personal love of the god. By and large the men tend to gravitate towards the more martial elements and esoteric Druidism but there are no restrictions or real prejudices to them rising high in the faith. One should note that Chauntea's religion is one whose most sacred rites tend to be a bit more exotic than most would suspect from the pleasant homey exterior. Neutral sects perform voluntary human sacrifice while the good merely donate blood. Likewise, sex plays a powerful role in the religion with adventurers often asked to add their own line to the Goddess' faith to empower it. This even applies to women as some of their magic allows a child to be conceived then transferred over to a surrogate so that a warrior woman will not be impeded. Dogma: The Earthmother is all and ever shall be. She created the world and filled it with life for our enjoyment. When we die, our essences shall return to the earth and eventually be restored to new life in her eternal grace. One must maintain a balanced approach to one's existence with no extreme tolerated. Treat others with compassion, kindness, and love while recognizing the greatest contribution one can make to the world is adding your own small piece of good will to the greater whole. Remember all love is sacred even if it belongs to Sune more than the Earthmother. Do not mistake the Earthmother for a being with no wrath, however, for those who perform unholy acts of harming a child or abusing a loved one. They are to be punished with no recourse. Also, drive forth all unnatural beings from this realm like the undead or outsiders (Good Outsiders should merely be banished but they have no place in this reality).
Storm_Silverhand 02-11-08, 12:13 AM	Heya, Guess what, Charles? I dislike your take on Chauntea even more than I disklike your take on Lathander. You've bent them to the point where you could slap new names on them and no one would guess their origins, thinking them to be completely new deities. Anything I have to say is pointless because of that, plus I don't even know where to start or what to say.
Charles Phipps 02-11-08, 12:31 AM	Heya, Guess what, Charles? I dislike your take on Chauntea even more than I disklike your take on Lathander. Which is a perfectly valid criticism. Is something wrong? Toril-616 is about creating new and interesting roles for the gods that they are replacing. Frankly, I *AM* still curious what you think the fundamental nature of Lathander and Chauntea are to you, however, which would be a good place to start. Because while I like my versions of them, just like Xvim doesn't resemble the Xvim of canon in anything but the remotest sense, I'm open to different interpretations. :)
Storm_Silverhand 02-11-08, 06:59 AM	Heya, Which is a perfectly valid criticism. Is something wrong? I finally was able to put my finger on it. Here's the list... First is that in putting Male and Female in Lathander's and Chauntea's portfolios (as you have them) plays straight into Earth based gender stereotypes. Secondly, having Chauntea represent all three aspects of the Maiden/Mother/Crone triune goddess is just wrong. Look at the elven goddess Angharadh - made up of Sehanine Moonbow, Aerdrie Faenya, and Hanali Celanil. She is a single goddess, but is also three separate goddesses. If you were going to try the triune thing, the Witches of Rashemen have the right idea - Mystra, Chauntea, and Mielikki. Thirdly, Chauntea has both Summer and Fall in her portfolio. Sorry, but the seasons should be represented by different deities. Forthly, Chauntea is an agriculture goddess - this is why she's never had human fertility in her portfolio. She represents the fertility of the fields, not fertility of people. Fifthly, I don't like Lathander and Chauntea being "the father and mother of the Human race"... The idea in Faerun is that humans are interlopers, having come to the world through various portals and other planar connections. Sixthly, I vastly prefer Selune being the goddess of witches and female spellcasters. The moon has traditionally been a symbol of feminine power (at least in the West... I am generalizing, and I know the Moon has been male in some Earth cultures, but for the feeling you're going for, Selune is far better in the role than Chauntea.) Selune could work as the Crone to Chauntea's Mother, and either Mielikki, Lliira, or Sune's Maiden (I think Lliira is probably the best fit, but not your version of Lliira... Your version of Lliira seems a little like my homebrew version of Sif, and almost nothing like canon or Ed's Lllira). And... well I've kind of run out of steam here. I hope you don't think I'm being too critical, you did ask why I didn't like them and that was really all I could come up with. The feelings are more on a gut level than anything truly intellectual, and very difficult to put into words (so the list is by no means complete). Toril-616 is about creating new and interesting roles for the gods that they are replacing. Frankly, I *AM* still curious what you think the fundamental nature of Lathander and Chauntea are to you, however, which would be a good place to start. Because while I like my versions of them, just like Xvim doesn't resemble the Xvim of canon in anything but the remotest sense, I'm open to different interpretations. :) Lathander is specifically the god of beginnings. I know you'll probably say that makes him perfect to be the first deity in the cosmos, but the only creation myth we have says that Selune and Shar were the first two deities that Ao created. If Ao said "Let there be Light" he was talking about Selune. Lathander only came later, when Chauntea pleaded with her mothers to give her warmth... I like the idea of two female deities coming first, as so many other mythologies have the male who may or may not also be the patriarch coming first. Chauntea is the goddess of agriculture. If she represents any fertility, it's the fertility of the fields. She is the patron of farmers and anyone who wishes to grow plants. The fact that she embodies Abeir-Toril only reinforces that aspect. Chauntea gains most of her power not from worshipers, but from the fact that everything living on Abeir-Toril owes their existence to her. This is similar reasoning given for Mystra's power - every living being is touched by the Weave, and it is from this she gains her power... Direct worship of both entities is only a fraction of the power they gain indirectly. You're stealing too much from too many other deities just to pump these two already powerful deities up. Lathander and Chauntea have enough power already, they don't need any more.
Charles Phipps 02-11-08, 07:16 AM	FYI, in my campaigns (which this represents), the first three gods created by Ao were Selune/Amaunator/Shar which is one of the reasons. But yes, Witchcraft does seem off for Chauntea and I'll probably remove it. You may have notice S_SH that Selune is the goddess of magic already in the write-ups however, holding the role in trust for Mystra. I'll probably remove the Trinity Goddess aspect though as you're right, it detracts too much. Ultimately, Male and Female elements to Lathander/Chauntea was an off choice but I felt that it was an interesting angle to pursue. Valid criticisms, one and all. As for why Chauntea is the Goddess of Summer and Fall? Duh, planting and harvest time. I *DO* Think she's the Goddess of SEXUAL Fertility though and any other goddess having that portfolio would be silly. Ultimately, my goal with Chauntaea was to establish reasons why the player characters would want to follow her and divorce her from the idea she's a Harvest Goddess. She's that, but SHE'S ALSO THE FRICKIN' PLANET. Edit: One more thing; you're explicitly wrong. Humans are a native race to Abeir-Toril. Check the timeline. They, Dragons, and the Lizard things are all "Creator Races."
Craig C. 02-11-08, 11:40 AM	Just to note, Mielikki should have autumn in her portfolio, not Chauntea. Both the 2E Faiths & Avatars and the 3.X Faiths & Pantheons books confirms that. One would think that the agriculture goddess would have harvest time under her belt, but she doesn't in FR canon ...
Soltares 02-11-08, 04:47 PM	I'll probably remove the Trinity Goddess aspect though as you're right, it detracts too much. Selune, Shar and, uh, someone else, seem to fit the tripartite goddess thing better. Indeed, the sun-god (despite being male) works best there, despite being different than real-world examples that traditionally had three females in the triune god role. It could be part of their hidden backstory that they were meant to be one happy family, three different facets representing the three faces of creation, but they have drifted apart and the 'natural order' fell all out of whack because of it (leading to the rise of the other dieties, to fill in the slack). Interesting stuff. While I'm a huge fan of Wee Jas, I'm not sure that she fits well into a world with Selune and Kelemvore. Then again, that conflict could be the story, and Kelemvore could be on the way out, while purview over wizardry (but nor sorcery!) slips from Selune's hands as well, allowing Wee Jas to be more of a goddess of wizards, and not magic in general, and also death and law.
Storm_Silverhand 02-12-08, 03:05 AM	Heya, But yes, Witchcraft does seem off for Chauntea and I'll probably remove it. You may have notice S_SH that Selune is the goddess of magic already in the write-ups however, holding the role in trust for Mystra. And thinking of handing it over to Wee Jas (or is it that Wee Jas is thinking of trying to steal it from Selune... I'll have to go back and look). Selune keeping it, though, would make me happier. :) I'll probably remove the Trinity Goddess aspect though as you're right, it detracts too much. Having a single goddess be a triune deity just doesn't sit right. As for why Chauntea is the Goddess of Summer and Fall? Duh, planting and harvest time. Fall might be harvest, but that's exactly the point. Fall should probably belong to a deity like Kelemvor. Harvest represents the bounty of nature, but also the death of the Sun. That is where the festival of the dead (All Hallow's Eve) comes from. Summer is enough for her, without having her steal Fall from Mielikki (who shouldn't have it either, I think Kelemvor is the most appropriate deity to have it). :) I *DO* Think she's the Goddess of SEXUAL Fertility though and any other goddess having that portfolio would be silly. Well, I've changed my mind again and agree with you. :) And it shouldn't just be limited to humans either - should include everything that breeds. I'd phrase it simply as "fertility" though. Ultimately, my goal with Chauntaea was to establish reasons why the player characters would want to follow her and divorce her from the idea she's a Harvest Goddess. She's that, but SHE'S ALSO THE FRICKIN' PLANET. There's nothing wrong with very powerful deities not being worshiped by adventurers. Even if you made the changes you did and I actually liked them, I'm pretty sure I still wouldn't want to make a PC who worships her. One more thing; you're explicitly wrong. Humans are a native race to Abeir-Toril. Check the timeline. They, Dragons, and the Lizard things are all "Creator Races." You're right. :P Put it down to a brain malfunction on my behalf... But I still don't like Lathander and Chauntea as creators of humanity... I much rather humans be the result of a number of deities getting together and giving them all different traits - like Lathander gave them creativity, Chauntea gave them robust health, Mystra their ability to use magic, Selune gave them wisdom... etc. :) By the way, are you doing anything with Sharess? I'd be interested to see your take on her. :)
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 04:27 AM	Selune, Shar and, uh, someone else, seem to fit the tripartite goddess thing better. Most likely any Triune Goddess worship would be Selune, Shar, and Mystra or Selune, Shar, and Chauntea. Of course, if you made Drizzt's goddess into a daughter then she'd also fit nicely for the Hecate business. Indeed, the sun-god (despite being male) works best there, despite being different than real-world examples that traditionally had three females in the triune god role. It could be part of their hidden backstory that they were meant to be one happy family, three different facets representing the three faces of creation, but they have drifted apart and the 'natural order' fell all out of whack because of it (leading to the rise of the other dieties, to fill in the slack). As a note, The_Mess would be able to confirm that the original three deities of my Forgotten Realms were Selune (Neutrality), Lathander (Law), and Shar (Chaos). Ultimately, the events of a mythological "Fall of Man" (in this case involving the Creator Race and a blatant rip off of Dragonlance) resulted in the destruction of the balance with the corruption of Shar to evil and the creation of Talos as well as the appearance of Jergal (whom is the first interloper deity in my games). Interestingly enough, Shar was initially shown via a flashback adventure to be a deity that sacrificed her better nature to save reality from the folly of mortalkind before the tragedy of it drove her mad. I liken it to the Wyrm's madness in Werewolf: The Apocalypse. Interesting stuff. While I'm a huge fan of Wee Jas, I'm not sure that she fits well into a world with Selune and Kelemvore. Then again, that conflict could be the story, and Kelemvore could be on the way out, while purview over wizardry (but nor sorcery!) slips from Selune's hands as well, allowing Wee Jas to be more of a goddess of wizards, and not magic in general, and also death and law. Wee Jas' role is that of a "newly arrived Interloper" deity. Wee Jas doesn't fulfill any real function in the Forgotten Realms other than she's attempting to steal away as much of the existing power as she can. It's a vaguely antagonistic role for her to play against the other deities of Faerun but there's no reason that player characters can't follow her. Wee Jas' ultimate goal would be to steal away the portfolio of The Dead from Kelemvor and Magic from Selune and Love from Sune to become the most powerful goddess on Faerun. However, much more likely would be her only achieving a fraction of these goals. Personally, I use her as an excuse to "rebuild" Halruaa in our games. Michael (The_Mess) is the one who introduced her to "our" realms.
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 04:37 AM	And thinking of handing it over to Wee Jas (or is it that Wee Jas is thinking of trying to steal it from Selune... I'll have to go back and look). Selune keeping it, though, would make me happier. Selune would be a major opponent of handing over Magic to someone as rigidly lawful and prone to evil as Wee Jas. Honestly, it's more Azuth and Kelemvor whom don't trust SELUNE than the other way around. Frankly, both of them consider magic something better removed from the back and forth between Shar and Selune to something more neutral. Or, if they could, a resurrection of Mystra. Having a single goddess be a triune deity just doesn't sit right. Ironically, I would think of them simply as aspects of the same goddess since the idea of it being three goddess is very odd. I don't think combining existing goddesses into one like the Elves is really a smart idea, however. Fall might be harvest, but that's exactly the point. Fall should probably belong to a deity like Kelemvor. Harvest represents the bounty of nature, but also the death of the Sun. That is where the festival of the dead (All Hallow's Eve) comes from. Summer is enough for her, without having her steal Fall from Mielikki (who shouldn't have it either, I think Kelemvor is the most appropriate deity to have it). Noted, though Mielikki is another "Promoted" Goddess. Post the devastation of the Spell Plague, Mielikki merged with Eilistraee and Lurue in my games. Now she's a Greater Goddess of Nature's wilder aspects. Well, I've changed my mind again and agree with you. And it shouldn't just be limited to humans either - should include everything that breeds. I'd phrase it simply as "fertility" though. Noted. Basically, both Lathander and Chauntea were designed to get back to the Archetypes they represented. Lathander is the Sun God, Chauntea is the Earth Mother. There's nothing wrong with very powerful deities not being worshiped by adventurers. Even if you made the changes you did and I actually liked them, I'm pretty sure I still wouldn't want to make a PC who worships her. I think that I'd probably choose her worship for Druids or Rangers as much as Mielikki. However, that's about it. You're right. Put it down to a brain malfunction on my behalf... But I still don't like Lathander and Chauntea as creators of humanity... I much rather humans be the result of a number of deities getting together and giving them all different traits - like Lathander gave them creativity, Chauntea gave them robust health, Mystra their ability to use magic, Selune gave them wisdom... etc. Again a perfectly valid bit. I suppose I wanted to make Lathander and Chauntea the parents of humanity because it made them much closer to the "front" of players minds than other deities that tended to overshadow them. Oddly, there's a fun implication in our homebrew mythology. Specifically, Lathander left Selune and Shar whom were his consorts for a time to marry Selune and Shar's daughter. The Selune and Shar romance being somewhat understated but clear in our game's mythology. By the way, are you doing anything with Sharess? I'd be interested to see your take on her. Yes, though I doubt you'd much care for her since *I* think she's one of the most changed gods (and fills much of the role as Lliira has been changed from as a goddess of general merriment). ;-)
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 05:54 AM	"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you!" -A Paladin of Assuran badly mangling the holy texts Assuran (The Lord of Punishment, The Wrathful Hand of Kelemvor, The Unyielding, The Doombringer, The Mercykiller) Lesser God (soon to be Intermediate) of Carceri Portfolio: Curses, Execution, Guilt, Imprisonment, Jailers, Prisons, Poetic Justice, Punishment, Revenge Alignment: Lawful Neutral Aliases: Hoar, Saint Cuthbert Superior: Kelemvor Allies: Bane, Beshaba, Loviatar, Talona, Tyr Enemies: Anhur, Cyric, Mask, Set, Shar Symbol: Chains, The Headman's Ax Domains: Death, Law, Retribution, Travel Favored Weapon: Battle-Ax Assuran (A-SUR-Ran) is a deity that has grown significantly more powerful in the wake of the many disasters that have afflicted Faerun. His growth has been partially due to forming strong alliances and also due to the simple fact that most of Faerun's populous have stopped believing in anything but the harshest law. Assuran dresses as a indeterminate featured man in a long red cloak with a bloody headsman's ax for most of his appearances. More recent appearances have the man wearing a Pyramid like mask while being bare-chested and carrying along an enormous blade behind him. History and Relationships: Assuran found his clergy on the verge of extinction post the Spell-Plague and was about to pass into nothingness when Kelemvor approached him with a deal. Assuran would give up his hard won independence and swear fealty to Kelemvor while bestowing the portfolio of Retribution upon him. In exchange, Kelemvor would offer up Assuran a portion of his worship while sponsoring the deity for other portfolios. Submission was a difficult decision and one that the prideful deity has not stop bristling from but it has so far worked out well for him. Assuran spent the first couple of decades delivering down the judgments of Kelemvor onto Faithless and False to remind the people of Faerun that, even if the gods were not benevolent then they still had to be obeyed. Afterwards, he found that his cold and unforgiving style of brutality was welcome in many places that 'traditional' heroes were no longer appreciated. The ruthlessness and decisiveness of which the god's new faithful acted was enough to keep order in many places that it would otherwise sink to anarchy. Assuran is now an important god of the Faerun pantheon, even if he's not an especially well-liked one. It is likely that the god will only continue to grow in power as more people look to his terrible brand of 'justice' to deal with their foes. Assuran has also made powerful alliances with traditionally 'evil' gods that he shares a portion of his power with in order to bring down horrible blights upon the deserving. What separates Assuran from them is the fact that he is very meticulous about it always being warranted according to his brutal code (which often punishes for sins of carelessness, omission, or pride as horribly as deliberate evil). Tyr is repulsed by a large amount of what Assuran has done but even he has allied with the god to protect those from unwarranted judgments. Assuran and his Divine Servants also carry out the sentences delivered by Kelemvor and are often given leave to devise them. Kelemvor loathes the Wall of the Faithless and Assuran has found many things much worse. Assuran's primary foes are those gods whom deliberately flout the Law. Cyric and Mask are Assuran's primary foes as he considers them both codes whom have violated the Divine Code enough that they should spend the rest of their eternity in prisons of horrible punishment. Assuran would dearly like to punish Shar for her many misdeeds but believes that is something that will take a great deal more time and energy than he currently has. Assuran has not forgotten or forgiven (indeed-cannot) the acts of Anhur against him. Assuran fully intends to overthrow Set's current dictatorship in Mulhorand and establish himself as the new Lord of both Mulhorand and Unther. It may be a pipe dream but already his masked avengers are slaying both Setite and Anhurite Rebel in that land. Anyone who calls upon a curse upon another person in the name of Assuran that has legitimately wronged them in some way has a 1% to 5% chance of this prayer being answered (1% representing something minor like stealing, 3% representing a murder victim, while 5% representing the absolutely most heinous deeds imaginable). This chance of a curse doubles if the individual makes a personal sacrifice to Assuran of value with the aid of a Asurran Priest in good standing. This act may only be performed once by a subject, though Assuran Priests can make their own calls upon him once a year. Curses of Assuran are rarely deadly but often quite horrifying in some way with permanent marks of damnation or deformities being common. This ability, of course, is up to GM's discretion and may be warded off by other gods if they wish to protect their villains from Assuran's retribution. Dogma: A cleric of Assuran said it best. "Mercy is a concept for people whom do not understand that Retribution is the basis for all law in this society. Those whom strike unjustly are to be met with equal and greater force in return for their crimes in order to show them that the innocent are not helpless or weak in the face of those whom would take advantage of their perceived weakness. Justice is not forgiving, kind, or compassionate in the face of evil. It is decisive and harsh in ways that leaves absolutely no doubt that there is no place to hide from its terrible power. Even if you escape the wrath of Assuran in the living world then there is no escape for you in the afterlife for he will be there to deliver an eternity of torment unto thee."
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 05:57 AM	The way I kinda interpret your take on Leira is that her divinely-inspired conspiracies and machinations have somehow taken on a sentient life of their own. Similar to the way the monster type called "Living Spells" (MM3 and Eberron) gain life through magic-fueled abiogenesis themselves. Certainly a way to look at it. Honestly, Leira's conspiracies and set in motion ideas are so ridiculously complex, they continue to grow and fester without her. Paranoia and lies growing or evolving on their own. Honestly, were one to want to resurrect Leira, it'd be an amazingly interesting idea that all of her little cabal cults were part of a massive web of somantic and material components to bring about her return to full power.
SteelGeneral 02-12-08, 07:47 AM	Charles, I have really enjoyed your take on Realmsian dieties post Spell Plague. I am a bit envious of your ability to detail the faiths and especially the dogma's of your dieties. Having become frustrated with all the changes WotC has done to the Realms of late I am in the process of developing a campaign setting of my own. It is currently in its very early stages and the idea I have is to get the help of the gaming community to help me 'flesh it out' if possible, resulting in the end with a setting that hopefully everyone can enjoy. With all that said any "advice"/suggestions you might provide on the detailing of various faiths and their dogmas would be appreciated. Keep up the good work.
Storm_Silverhand 02-12-08, 08:04 AM	Heya, Selune would be a major opponent of handing over Magic to someone as rigidly lawful and prone to evil as Wee Jas. Honestly, it's more Azuth and Kelemvor whom don't trust SELUNE than the other way around. Frankly, both of them consider magic something better removed from the back and forth between Shar and Selune to something more neutral. Or, if they could, a resurrection of Mystra. Mystra... *sigh* Yes. :) I don't mind Selune having magic, but Mystra being resurrected would be even sweeter still. Ironically, I would think of them simply as aspects of the same goddess since the idea of it being three goddess is very odd. I don't think combining existing goddesses into one like the Elves is really a smart idea, however. You need only look at Earth mythology to see that very often, the three faces of the triune Goddess were actually also separate deities in their own right... For example, the three Norns - Skuld, Verdandi, and Urd representing Maiden, Mother, and Crone. Noted, though Mielikki is another "Promoted" Goddess. Post the devastation of the Spell Plague, Mielikki merged with Eilistraee and Lurue in my games. Now she's a Greater Goddess of Nature's wilder aspects. I think you've mentioned that before somewhere. The trouble is, while I like Mielikki, and don't mind you making her more powerful, I'd rather it was not at the expense of Lurue (who is her friend - why would they merge?), and Eilistraee (who is one of my favorite Realms deities). Basically, both Lathander and Chauntea were designed to get back to the Archetypes they represented. Lathander is the Sun God, Chauntea is the Earth Mother. One of the things I like about the canon pantheon, is that even the most powerful deities aren't that much more powerful than other powerful deities. (Except Mystra, and I liked that she was the exception, though she had curbed her own power to a certain extent... if that makes sense?) The way you've written them up, you've made them out to be the most important deities and other deities just aren't at all... I think that I'd probably choose her worship for Druids or Rangers as much as Mielikki. However, that's about it. Chauntea should be a farmer's god. There's nothing wrong with being a farmer's god. Druids and Rangers can still serve her, but I don't see them as being adventuring Druids and Rangers... More like the priests who serve the farmers, and the Rangers who protect the farms. (Chauntea is not one of my favorite deities, I will freely admit that... But I don't dislike her either... She has her place, and it's slightly less exalted than others... but that makes sense. She should be an earthy goddess.) Again a perfectly valid bit. I suppose I wanted to make Lathander and Chauntea the parents of humanity because it made them much closer to the "front" of players minds than other deities that tended to overshadow them. It also makes them overshadow other deities. I think you've gone too far in the other direction. Oddly, there's a fun implication in our homebrew mythology. Specifically, Lathander left Selune and Shar whom were his consorts for a time to marry Selune and Shar's daughter. The Selune and Shar romance being somewhat understated but clear in our game's mythology. I have a little fan ficlet about the origins of Selune's and Shar's bitter dispute you might be interested in. ;) :P Yes, though I doubt you'd much care for her since *I* think she's one of the most changed gods (and fills much of the role as Lliira has been changed from as a goddess of general merriment). ;-) I am interested in looking at it though. You can't have done worse that the person or persons who wrote up the Celebrant of Sharess PrC. ;)
Craig C. 02-12-08, 12:01 PM	I see a lot of overlap with your Assuran and the canon Hoar. Hoar's portfolio consists of 'Revenge, Retribution, & Poetic Justice'. I noticed you listed Hoar under the alias section, but no mention of Hoar in Assuran's storyline. Guess I'm just curious about how this transition (if that's what you call it) occurred.
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 01:29 PM	I'll explain. I use Assuran instead of Hoar because of my players being really immature about names. Assuran is one of Hoar's canon aliases.
HVulpes 02-12-08, 04:10 PM	I'll explain. I use Assuran instead of Hoar because of my players being really immature about names. Assuran is one of Hoar's canon aliases. So you have to make a choice between butt jokes or lady of the night jokes? Right? :P
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 04:31 PM	yes. But yes, Assuran is Hoar. Not just a guy filling Hoar's role.
HVulpes 02-12-08, 04:44 PM	yes. But yes, Assuran is Hoar. Not just a guy filling Hoar's role. Which reveals Assuran's greatest foes---People who make fun of his name. Who are hit by the Tri-nightmare curse and the Tri-punishment Tortures. Correct?
Soltares 02-12-08, 04:44 PM	Most likely any Triune Goddess worship would be Selune, Shar, and Mystra or Selune, Shar, and Chauntea. Of course, if you made Drizzt's goddess into a daughter then she'd also fit nicely for the Hecate business. Drizzt has a daughter and she's in the running to be a goddess? Oy. Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue. As a note, The_Mess would be able to confirm that the original three deities of my Forgotten Realms were Selune (Neutrality), Lathander (Law), and Shar (Chaos). Ultimately, the events of a mythological "Fall of Man" (in this case involving the Creator Race and a blatant rip off of Dragonlance) resulted in the destruction of the balance with the corruption of Shar to evil and the creation of Talos as well as the appearance of Jergal (whom is the first interloper deity in my games). Interestingly enough, Shar was initially shown via a flashback adventure to be a deity that sacrificed her better nature to save reality from the folly of mortalkind before the tragedy of it drove her mad. I liken it to the Wyrm's madness in Werewolf: The Apocalypse. Which corresponds tidily to a Brahma (Wyld), Vishnu (Weaver), Shiva (Wyrm) trinity concept with a creator god, a preserver / architect god and a destroyer god. Chauntea or Lathandar seem to best fit the creator concept, Selune could be seen as a lawgiver and Shar as a destroyer. A fantasy version that I've seen in more than one place has the creator is seen as semi-conscious at best, pumping out wondrous and freaky creatures that may or may not actually fit into any sort of coherent ecosystem (flumph, platypi, etc.), while the preserver / architect / shaper selects which critters get to stay and sends the nastier ones off to the destroyer to be gotten rid of, for the good of the universe. Wee Jas' role is that of a "newly arrived Interloper" deity. In any other game world, I'd recoil from such a concept, but the Realms has a long tradition of interlopers, whether Egyptian, Orcish, Greek (Tyche), Finnish (Loviator, Mielikki) or Melnibonean (cold elemental gods, first named by Ed Greenwood in a Dragon magazine as Grome, Kakatal, etc.). Wee Jas' ultimate goal would be to steal away the portfolio of The Dead from Kelemvor and Magic from Selune and Love from Sune to become the most powerful goddess on Faerun. However, much more likely would be her only achieving a fraction of these goals. I could see her getting more luck seizing the Law portfolio over any of the others. Tyr seems to be losing popularity. Personally, I use her as an excuse to "rebuild" Halruaa in our games. Michael (The_Mess) is the one who introduced her to "our" realms. Halruaa is awesome, so that sounds cool.
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 04:57 PM	Drizzt has a daughter and she's in the running to be a goddess? Oy. No, I mean Drizzt's goddess would be the "Daughter" archetype in the Triad Goddess role. Which corresponds tidily to a Brahma (Wyld), Vishnu (Weaver), Shiva (Wyrm) trinity concept with a creator god, a preserver / architect god and a destroyer god. Astute. Though recall that Lathander at the start of the Law/Chaos/Preservation role is that he's still Amaunator rather than reinvented as Lathander. There were some explicit Jesus elements of resurrection in my version of the Dawn Cataclysm. Which is sort of why Lathander despises the Risen Sun. Its a step backwards and he hates that. I could see her getting more luck seizing the Law portfolio over any of the others. Tyr seems to be losing popularity. In 616, Tyr's Church is undergoing a transition period thanks to Asmodeus' 100 year regency. It's pretty much bottomed out in cynicism and other troubles with Tyr now back on the rise as a pure god of crusading Justice versus a stuffy patriarch. He's the Phoenix Wright god.
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 05:01 PM	Charles, I have really enjoyed your take on Realmsian dieties post Spell Plague. I am a bit envious of your ability to detail the faiths and especially the dogma's of your dieties. I'm happy to give any hints and help you might want, Steel General. Really, my best generic advice is to try and keep notes on things and to think of what the god's broadest and most RL-based appeals would be. But I'm happy to answer more specific queries.
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 05:12 PM	Mystra... *sigh* Yes. I don't mind Selune having magic, but Mystra being resurrected would be even sweeter still. The_Mess can answer the question better, but the implications are in our game that she's probably entrapped by Shar right now rather than actually dead-dead. This is actually what's "prevented" a new goddess of magic being reborn. Much like Tyr and Tymora, someone just needs to go rescue them. You need only look at Earth mythology to see that very often, the three faces of the triune Goddess were actually also separate deities in their own right... For example, the three Norns - Skuld, Verdandi, and Urd representing Maiden, Mother, and Crone. Noted. I think you've mentioned that before somewhere. The trouble is, while I like Mielikki, and don't mind you making her more powerful, I'd rather it was not at the expense of Lurue (who is her friend - why would they merge?), and Eilistraee (who is one of my favorite Realms deities). Primarilly, because I feel that Mielikki as the Unicorn Goddess should have an expanded role. I'm very much for broad, overarcing, non-specific religious focus deities. Mielikki's face as the Unicorn Goddess accents her importance to the setting (as you'll see in her write-up) As for Eilistraee, primarilly it's to help cement Mielikki's ties to the Seldarine and also the irony that Drizzt was worshiping Eilistraee all along. As noted, Mask is Vhaeraun and Lathander is Corellon while Selune is S. Moonbow. One of the things I like about the canon pantheon, is that even the most powerful deities aren't that much more powerful than other powerful deities. (Except Mystra, and I liked that she was the exception, though she had curbed her own power to a certain extent... if that makes sense?) The way you've written them up, you've made them out to be the most important deities and other deities just aren't at all... Lathander and Chauntea are the largest religions in the Realms with the Triad coming up behind them followed by Bane (and formerly Cyric). However, while you've seen Lathander and Chauntea's role accented. You haven't seen the rising importance of Talos and Shar either. Plus, Ghaundaur trumps them all. Fundamentally, I tend to think of the Faerun Pantheon as a bunch of seperate religions that the majority of people just happen to think have all real gods. Chauntea should be a farmer's god. There's nothing wrong with being a farmer's god. Druids and Rangers can still serve her, but I don't see them as being adventuring Druids and Rangers... More like the priests who serve the farmers, and the Rangers who protect the farms. Chauntea is the god most worshiped outside of most urbanized Realms. What you say is true but in general, I point to the Moonshaes where Chauntea's worship isn't treated as "Happy, Shiny, Goodness" but quite seriously you have Knights killing people in the Earthmother's name. Were Werewolves not worshiping Selune, they'd probably venerate her too. It also makes them overshadow other deities. I think you've gone too far in the other direction. Only amongst her faithful. Triadists don't worship her at all. Besides, humans aren't really that important in the long run. ;-) I have a little fan ficlet about the origins of Selune's and Shar's bitter dispute you might be interested in. I'd love to see it.
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 05:54 PM	I owe, Ravenloft 3E by the Kargatane the majority of this. Note, I switched around the "heresies" of Fzoul Chembyrl and the High Imperceptor, in canon FR, it's the reverse. The Church of the Lawbringer (The Authority, The Divine Order, The Eternal Order, The Imperial Law, The Dark Lord's Demon Church [pejorative]) Portfolio: See Bane (and Bhaal/Myrkul/Talona/Loviatar or Garagos/Velsharoon/Talona/Loviatar) Alignment: Lawful Evil Members: Bhaal/Myrkul/Talona/Loviatar or Garagos/Velsharoon/Talona/Loviatar Allies: Asmodeus, Hoar, Set, Shar, Siamorphe (heretical segments of her church), Tiamat Enemies: Cyric, Lathander, The Triad, Talos Symbol: The All-Seeing Red Eye Domains: Evil, Destruction, Law, Nobility Worshipers Alignment: LN, N, LE, NE The Church of the Lawbringer is the fourth largest faith in the whole of Abeir-Toril. The largest being Chauntea and Lathander's followers (with some overlap between them), then the Triad, and then the Lawbringers themselves. It is a multi-Crystal Sphere region that holds influence over many more worlds that Abeir-Toril but whose influence is primarilly felt through the oppressive conquest delivered by the High Imperceptor's throne in Mulmaster. Bane (pronounced bain) has always desired to be the most powerful deity in the universe and the flexible along with deceiving nature of the faith is one that results in its increasing power over many regions. Very few monarchs are willing to stand against its power by outlawing it outright but its insidious effects continue to grow in any place its allowed to fester. History and Relationships: The Lawbringer's faith is an extremely complex one that is largely best considered within the context that Bane is a huge :censored: liar. Thus, the Lawbringer's faith is largely an incomprehensible pack of lies to outside viewers but deeply alluring and reassuring to those who believe in its message. Fundamentally, it boils down to the fact that the Tyrant wishes to convert the entire world to his worship and will do it by hook or by crook. Bane's Dogma is a wholly fabricated mythology that places the Tyrant as the first and only god of the universe. Bane replaces Ao as the first being to awaken in the cosmos and the being who brought about order throughout the universe. Furthermore, all power distinctly flows from Bane whom is perfect and unchanging. The Church has vacillated on the place of other divinities in the gods but the majority of the faith holds that the Lawbringer has lesser spirits that act in his name with some argument over whether gods like Bhaal or Garagos actually exist or are but different faces of Bane (usually, the church will teach differently on whether or not Bane is gross with his allies or not at the time). Faiths like the Triad have misunderstood the fundamental nature of Bane by combining them with "pagan heresies" and the hatred of the Lawbringer's church to the Lawgiver's church cannot be understated. They are the chief targets to conversion for Banites as well as retribution since there is a common ground that might lead to redemption as much as corruption. Outside of the Triad, almost all other religions are composed of individuals worshiping idols and using "witchcraft" to replicate the powers of the True Miracle worship of Bane. It is an understood practice of the Church that worship of lesser gods is to be initially combined with Bane worship such as "Sune is but one of the consorts of Bane" or other heretical ideals until such churchs can be brought fully within the fold of Bane. This corruption of their liturgy is one of the most dire sources of hatred of other gods for Bane but a most proven effective one. The Lawbringer's faith is relentlessly conservative as they work to be relevant in the day-to-day lives of their laity at all times. In other words, the Lawbringers are an oppressive part of the lives of everyone whom has converted to the region and firmly under the thumb of the god. They prefer to play to prejudices and have complex rules about almost everything that a person is to perform as part of their subservience to the god. The Lawbringer's faith is one of the few sects in Faerun to be sexually oppressive as they take the bizarre idea (rumored to come straight from Bane himself) that it is best to channel the sensual energies of life into faith in order to give extra power unto their god. Thus, "Deviancy" is a capital crime in areas controlled by the Lawbringer even if its widely recognized in the Church as just something to keep the Imperceptors busy. The Lawbringer's faith does its best to negotiate with local rulers. They are prone to frequently bribing the nobility with vast gifts and services in exchange for being 'allowed' to practice their faith. Usually, they work from the top down with the conversion of leadership usually allowing a vice like persecution of those beneath them. Many areas have been converted to Bane worship through the use of the sword. The religion is relentlessly hierarchical with the faith lead by Priests of Bane, the faithful monitored by the Eyes of Bane, The Swords of Bane delivering his terrible judgments, districts controlled by High Priests, High Priests eventually promoted to Imperceptors, and the entire religion controlled by the High Imperceptor. Bane's Baneliches have mostly been destroyed but their spirits have been imprisoned in a sacred "oracle" chamber for High Imperceptors to consult with. The Swords of Bane are its militant order but there's many distinct knightly orders within. The Red Steel Knights, for example, are a group of Blackguards whom behave very similar to a Paladin Order except for the fact they're uniformly tyrannical warriors that consider the conversion of other peoples to be as much a priority as the destruction of 'chaos causing' monsters. Likewise, the Stosstorpen of Mulmaster are a combination secret police/religious order that combines magic wit knightly skill. The current church of the Lawbringer is a puppet of Fzoul Chembyrl whom, bizarrely, doesn't actually give a damn about the Church itself. Fzoul is the leader of the True Hand of Bane 'heresy' that holds Priests of Bane should rule directly as the god's regents than as the spiritual guides to a bunch of empty headed nobles. Thus, Zhentil Keep is largely ruled as a theocracy and priests of the True Hand intend to dominate in their own name. Fzoul has Bane's approval but the Church of the Lawgiver has proven much more successful in spreading the Dark Lord's influence than Fzoul's admittedly large and powerful kingdom. The Church of the Lawbringer is very popular in Amn and Tethyr where it rivals the Triad in size and probably will soon become the dominate faith. The Church of the Lawbringer, likewise, is the third largest church in Thay after Kossuth worship and Set. It is tolerated along the Sword Coast despite the utter hatred that individuals like the Paladinlord of Waterdeep and Lady Alustriel hold for the church. Cormyr, unfortunately, recently lost its status as the only nation to outright prohibit the god as Azoun V was forced to allow religious tolerance of the Lawgivers as part of his treaty with Mulmaster. Dogma: The Lawgiver is perfect, eternal, unchanging, and absolute. His holy canon has no room for dissent and those who do not accept its literal truth should be punished with the full extent of the law. Bane created the Law and those nobles who have the divine mandate of the Lawgiver should be allowed to rule as they decree for it is the nature of the peasant to serve the nobleman. Those who attempt to rise above their station, outside of the Church of Bane, should be punished severely. Worship of the Lawgiver should be the foremost priority of any being for that is what they were created to do. The souls of all who do not worship Bane shall be eternally confined to perdition for there is no Heaven for anyone whom is not initiated to the Lawgiver's faith. The Lawgiver's power applies even within the family as the head's decrees must be followed absolutely in all things. There is a hierarchy to everything and to break it is to incur the wrath of the All Seeing Eye. Heresy must be punished by torture and repentance or death. All peoples, ultimately, must be converted to Bane and their sinful natures brought to his worship.
GothicDan 02-12-08, 07:33 PM	You need only look at Earth mythology to see that very often, the three faces of the triune Goddess were actually also separate deities in their own right... For example, the three Norns - Skuld, Verdandi, and Urd representing Maiden, Mother, and Crone. The idea of the triune goddess is sort of losing weight, especially in more recent years. Dumezil, I believe, was the original prime proponent of the theory. I wouldn't consider the Norns to be aspects of Maiden, Mother, and Crone, though. In the Norse tradition, Freya quite obviously would fit the Maiden aspect, and Frigga would have been equally Mother and Crone. Even the Greek interpretations are varied. Some consider the three-faced goddess to actually be Diana, Artemis, and Hecate, while other sources vary. Currently translating the Aeneid right now, and this is brought up. So, yeah... Just a note to be wary of modern interpretations of pagan religions. But I'm sure you already know this to a degree - I'm just feeling talkative, and have been doing a lot of research on the stuff. One of my current school projects is a comparison between the Norse and Roman afterlives, and the other is a general comparative analysis of Indo-European mythology. :)
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 08:11 PM	Sharess (The Queen of Ectasy, Mother of Cats, The Merry Maker) Lesser Goddess of Arborea Portfolio: Alcohol, Cats, Compassion, Dreams, Experience, Sensual Fulfillment Aliases: St. Bachuus (Proxy), Bast, Zandilar, Zasheria Alignment: Chaotic Good Superior: Sune Allies: Anhur, Finder-Milil, Ilmater, Lathander, Lliira, Mielikki, The Seldarine, Selune, Tymora Foes: Bane, Set, Shar Symbol: A Black Cat Domains: Chaos, Charm, Good, Travel, Trickery Worshiper's Alignment: NG, CG, N, CN Sharess (Sha-Ress) is a goddess who has changed a great deal from her Mulhorand roots. The experience with Shar during the Time of Troubles has drastically increased her awareness of the many darker sides to the world. Nevertheless, she is viewed with a large amount of ambivalence despite her brighter side due to the fact that many view her faith as one of shiftless layabouts that are more concerned with pleasure than any amount of work. This is completely unfair, Sharess' works very hard at their pleasure. Sharess tends to appear as a beautifully dressed dancing girl when she chooses to wear clothes at all. There are times when she chooses more modest attire but even this tends to be ridiculously sexy. When she wishes to send signs and portents, she uses golden showers and mirrors or talking cats to serve as her proxies. History and Relationships: Sharess' near destruction at the hands of Shar resulted in the goddess being forced to merge with the harem girl that had been her host during the period. Thus, Sharess became far removed from the formerly ancient power that she'd been during the days of Toril's ancient Empires. On the other hand, this allowed her to broaden her support where it had been dwindling back in Mulhorand. Sharess is something of a redundant deity in many Realms believers views. While everyone enjoys pleasure, very few people prefer to make a religious lifestyle of it. Individuals like Finder-Milil, Loviatar, Sune, and Lliira all have strong focuses in addition to their love of merry-making that gives their religion a purpose. Sharess, surprisingly, also does but the vast majority of her faith tend to be poseurs whom mostly are drawn to the promise of life with no consequence. Those who treat the faith seriously find that Sharess can be a somewhat exacting deity. Her purpose is to sanctify the cause of pleasure and make it something that liberates individuals from the stresses of daily life. This means her true faithful are often dealing with issues of spreading knowledge of birth control, caring for individuals whom can no longer feel pleasure, and dealing with those suffering from terrible addictions. It's an odd but not unheard of monastary that has faithful of Ilmater and Sharess working together to aid those tormented with vice. Those who confuse the priestesses of Sharess with prostitutes, even courtesans, tend to find themselves feeling some curse of the ladies wrath. Their obsession with the act of love and using it to cause individuals to experience the heights of spiritual fulfillment is only one aspect of their faith. Many of them become obsessed with pushing the boundaries of experience and become oracles or enlightened mystics as much as degenerate burn outs. Loviatar truly despises Sharess and considers her an enemy on a personal level that rivals Ilmater. Fundamentally, Sharess attempts to turn what Loviatar makes degrading into something beautiful and her own edginess is the greatest blunt to the need to make excess shameful (and thus serve Loviatar's interests). Likewise, Shar considers her an irritant as a century has done little to cool the otherwise peaceful faith's desire to wipe Shar's clergy off the cosmos. Bane's repressiveness is also something that makes Sharess loathe him and all of his works. Nevertheless, Sharess and her faithful are not exactly welcomed in many parts of the world thanks to a mildly successful campaign of propaganda by her enemies plus people's own natural suspicions of anything that reaks of a sex cult. The goddess of Compassions own tendency to adopt orphans and care for them leads to the occasional bit of confusion that can get people angry before they realize the two elements of the faith could not be more removed. Sharess keeps a horde of CG Celestials, whom have much of the powers of Incubi, Succubi that she calls "Sharian." These tend to visit mortals and help spread her faith. Many missions of Sharians are to give lonely but brilliant young men and women the companionship they deserve while they make some lasting contribution to the whole of society. Sharess maintains a fortress on the Astral Plane that she uses to visit the Demiplane of Dreams with her faithful. This largely undiscovered and unexplored region has given the goddess a large tactical edge against Shar but may eventually bring her into war against Ghaundaur. Dogma: Pleasurable things exist to be enjoyed. So long as no one gets hurt, then there's nothing wrong with it. Also, you can discover many things about yourself if you allow yourself to experience what you might otherwise be afraid of pursuing. Those who exploit and debase what is joyful must be stopped at all costs, however. Particularly, those whom harm or abuse children. Rapists and other defilers are to be put to the sword without mercy.
GothicDan 02-12-08, 08:18 PM	Sharess (Sha-Ress) is a goddess whom has changed Should be "who" has changed, as it's the subject, not the object. :) In any event, I do like the revamped, more powerful Sharess. She's always been one of my favorites.
The_Mess 02-12-08, 08:25 PM	The_Mess can answer the question better, but the implications are in our game that she's probably entrapped by Shar right now rather than actually dead-dead. This is actually what's "prevented" a new goddess of magic being reborn. Much like Tyr and Tymora, someone just needs to go rescue them. Yes, that would be the Implication, bwa ha ha ha ha! For a bit more of our modified FR background, after our Time of Troubles, rather than Midnight ascending to Mystrahood, one of our PCs did, specifically my character, Imzel. Imzel kept an "avatar" on earth to continue to experience growth and life as a mortal (i.e., keep playing without divine power), seperate, but connected. Skipping forward to our modern day, Imzel goes mad as the first, worst victim of the spell plague when Mystra apparently dies, but it opens the question, why didn't Imzel die? Much debating has resulted while Charles was running the game, and I decided to move it into plot territory when I take my turn coming very shortly, which will start with word that Mystra's body *isn't* in the astral sea and the kidnapping of Imzel. Who has the body? Shar? Bane? Mask (who has recently claimed her daughter as Chosen...)? Someone else? Is she alive? Who has Imzel? is it the same people? And why is a former PC back as a servant of the new interloper goddess aiming to take Magic as hers? FIND OUT NEXT WEEK! Same bat-time! Same bat-channel! Besides, humans aren't really that important in the long run. Bah, humans! Naga rule! (Not that I'm obsessed, as some fools have suggested.)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-12-08, 08:42 PM	Well, I hope you like it. I do like your Chauntea.:) Nice work! I especially liked the bit about urban druids.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-12-08, 08:51 PM	Fall might be harvest, but that's exactly the point. Fall should probably belong to a deity like Kelemvor. Harvest represents the bounty of nature, but also the death of the Sun. That is where the festival of the dead (All Hallow's Eve) comes from. Summer is enough for her, without having her steal Fall from Mielikki (who shouldn't have it either, I think Kelemvor is the most appropriate deity to have it). :) I just want to ask--isn't seeing Autumn as "the death of the Sun" a very "Earthly", real-world take on things? It's also very biased towards temperate portions of the Earth--what about about places near the equator (and I'm presuming Toril has an equator), which would get the same amount of sun all year long? I also think it's refreshing to not have a grim death deity in charge of autumn, as Myrkul once was.
Storm_Silverhand 02-12-08, 10:04 PM	Heya, I just want to ask--isn't seeing Autumn as "the death of the Sun" a very "Earthly", real-world take on things? It's also very biased towards temperate portions of the Earth--what about about places near the equator (and I'm presuming Toril has an equator), which would get the same amount of sun all year long? I also think it's refreshing to not have a grim death deity in charge of autumn, as Myrkul once was. Hmm... But Charles has done much to "Earth" up a number of faiths and deities in this thread. So why make an exception for one deity? As far as I understand it, places close to the Equator have two seasons - the Wet season, and the Dry season... Not Summer or Winter, as typically the Wet season is hot and humid, while the Dry season is well... hot. Besides which, Lathander has just Spring, which implies that Winter is owned by someone else (Auril, I'm guessing... Charles?). It would make more sense/be more consistent (to my mind) to have a separate deity be the deity of Fall. @Charles - I love your take on Sharess! Seeing Compassion in her portfolio really made me smile, and a lot of what you've written makes perfect sense to me. :) (Though I do have one thing to crit, I wouldn't distance her too far from Courtesans, as that is a part of her. In our home games, Sharess's shrines are often found in festhalls - but that may or may not fit with your vision. Festhalls were actually a part of Sharess's 3rd Ed portfolio, and we see her as the patroness of courtesans because of that.)
Charles Phipps 02-12-08, 10:08 PM	@Charles - I love your take on Sharess! Seeing Compassion in her portfolio really made me smile, and a lot of what you've written makes perfect sense to me. (Though I do have one thing to crit, I wouldn't distance her too far from Courtesans, as that is a part of her. In our home games, Sharess's shrines are often found in festhalls - but that may or may not fit with your vision. Festhalls were actually a part of Sharess's 3rd Ed portfolio, and we see her as the patroness of courtesans because of that.) I almost put a picture of the Companions from Firefly in Sharess due to the quasi-religious element they bring. Basically, my point is that that they DO have sex a great deal and accept donations but they choose not based on money or affluence but the spiritual nature of their craft. But yes, she definitely is the patroness of them. I just didn't think courtesan=priestess.
Storm_Silverhand 02-13-08, 06:08 AM	Heya, I almost put a picture of the Companions from Firefly in Sharess due to the quasi-religious element they bring. Basically, my point is that that they DO have sex a great deal and accept donations but they choose not based on money or affluence but the spiritual nature of their craft. But yes, she definitely is the patroness of them. I just didn't think courtesan=priestess. Well, you did remove festhalls completely from her portfolio - so she's either given it up, or something else happened to it. Not all priests of Sharess need be courtesans, and neither do all courtesans need be priests of Sharess. But there's still be a fairly large number who would naturally gravitate to her. Anyway, even Inara was paid for her work, and I'm fairly sure that was "paid" not "donated to", despite the spiritual angle to her work - and she always seemed to have fairly well to do clients in the series as well, even though she supposedly chose them on the basis of things other than wealth. :) I may be misremembering, because it's been a while since I saw the series... if so, ignore me. :) (Inara was my favorite character, with Kaylee a very close second.) Anyway, just because one is paid to have sex doesn't mean one can't have sex without being paid... Also prostitution is not viewed in the Realms with the same revulsion it is by many people on Earth.
Charles Phipps 02-13-08, 08:50 AM	noted.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 02:23 PM	Heya, Hmm... But Charles has done much to "Earth" up a number of faiths and deities in this thread. So why make an exception for one deity? Not saying he should do that.:) Having read the Chauntea entry, I have to say that I like it, even though I'm pretty happy with all the gods as they are currently. I'm not going to change my Chauntea because I like Charles's version, but I think it's pretty well done nonetheless. As far as I understand it, places close to the Equator have two seasons - the Wet season, and the Dry season... Not Summer or Winter, as typically the Wet season is hot and humid, while the Dry season is well... hot. That's what I understand as well (although I'm not an expert on meteorology, either...). I'm just saying that associated autumn with death and darkness doesn't have to be a given. Also, I just remembered Wenta from the Greyhawk pantheon--when you have a moment, check her out (ie. do a search).:) She's a cheerful, buxom, CG deity of Autumn who encourages drinking beer and having fun during the harvest. She has siblings who are patrons of the seasons and weather, and she's the one who's seems the most light-hearted (the goddess of spring is actually "the Sad Maiden"). Later I'll try to get you a link.
Soltares 02-14-08, 11:10 AM	I wouldn't consider the Norns to be aspects of Maiden, Mother, and Crone, though. In the Norse tradition, Freya quite obviously would fit the Maiden aspect, and Frigga would have been equally Mother and Crone. There's even some blabber about Frigga and Freya being the same goddess, in which case, Odin's a cradle-robbing dirty old man! Even the Greek interpretations are varied. Some consider the three-faced goddess to actually be Diana, Artemis, and Hecate, while other sources vary. Currently translating the Aeneid right now, and this is brought up. Aren't Diana (Roman) and Artemis (Greek) and Artume (Etruscan) the same goddess? Or did you mean Athena or Aphrodite, in place of one of them? Demeter (mother), Persephone (maiden) and Baubo (crone) might fit that sort of theme better.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-16-08, 12:39 AM	Your version of the realms is truly remarkable. I would be very interested to see what you would do with Ilsensine, and a write up on Ghaunadaur. Tharizdun is an Overgod. Does this make him equal in power to Ao?:coolcthul
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 12:58 AM	Your version of the realms is truly remarkable. I would be very interested to see what you would do with Ilsensine, and a write up on Ghaunadaur. Tharizdun is an Overgod. Does this make him equal in power to Ao?:coolcthul Thanks, Tharizdun is probably equal in power to Ao, or certainly he's powerful to the point that even the God of All Order in the cosmos would have a signficantly difficult time in fighting him. The idea was that, when Tharizdun last rose, it took ALL OF THE GODS working on concert to bind him. Suffice to say, his rising would be the signal for "The End of All things as we know it."
XHereticX 02-16-08, 01:33 PM	Tharizdun aien't no overdeity. I would say at full power he was like an extremely powerful DVR 20 deity. If he was an overdeity even an entire pantheon of gods working against him woudn't have done a thing. However Tharizdun's power and influence is far more pervasive than a regular overdeity's as he is no limited to certain spheres of existence and works across the entire multiverse to forward his goals.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-16-08, 03:20 PM	Tharizdun aien't no overdeity. I would say at full power he was like an extremely powerful DVR 20 deity. If he was an overdeity even an entire pantheon of gods working against him woudn't have done a thing. However Tharizdun's power and influence is far more pervasive than a regular overdeity's as he is no limited to certain spheres of existence and works across the entire multiverse to forward his goals. I've never heard anything canon that Tharizdun worked anywhere outside of Greyhawk, what is your source? This is Charles interpretation of the realms, and he has chosen to include Tharizdun and to elevate his power and his role in the cosmos, as well as provide him with a place of origin (the Far Realm).
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 03:22 PM	Tharizdun aien't no overdeity. I would say at full power he was like an extremely powerful DVR 20 deity. If he was an overdeity even an entire pantheon of gods working against him woudn't have done a thing. ALL the gods....EVERYWHERE *AND* Ao versus Tharizdon and his Elemental minions. ;-) I'll do the write-up of the War of the Gods against Tharizdun's Kind later on. It fits very well with 4E.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 04:21 PM	Note: This is a myth that belongs to the Creator Race and the Dragons. Humans in the Realms do not know this myth and instead only seasoned Planewalkers may have heard it from VERY old species. Ironically, its also inaccurate given that AO is clearly not the only Overgod. Nevertheless, it has a grain of truth to it. The PCs in question, got their version from a set of "hidden" books at Candlekeep. IC: The Secret Tablets of Alaundo The Creation of the Universe 1. In the beginning, there was Chaos. 2. In the seeds of Chaos, Order then awoke spontaneously. 3. This being maintained its form against the rolling chaos and began to bring forth shape, substance, and stability to the eternal madness about him. 4. Still, the Chaos rolled against him and often destroyed what he worked. 5. Thus did Ao decide to bring forth further beings to aid him. 6. Firstborn was Amaunator, the being whom would embody the stability that Ao desired. 7. Next, was Selune whom should be the Creator of new beings. 8. And third was Shar whom would destroy the damaged and weakened to bring forth new existence. 9. Ao then would foster new gods as he forged an up, between, and below for his children. 10. As the universe became formed, the Chaos weakened and retreated. The First Godswar 1. Then, in shock, the final heart of the Chaos gained a mind of its own. 2. This being was called Tharizdun. 3. Tharizdun hated Ao and all of his works. 4. Tharizdun brought forth Demons from its folds to ramage, torment, and tempt. 5. Tharizdun lay with Shar and brought forth Talos. 6. Tharizdun shaped a massive pit in the wound that his presence bore in Ao's realm and this place became known as the Abyss. 7. To smite their enemies, Ao's children created their own servants in their image. These were the Celestials. 8. A host gathered forth of Ao's children and lead by Ao himself, they brought low Tharizdun's many creations and bound him at the heart of his demonic place. 9. Ao, weakened by his immense battle with Tharizdun, deeded rulership of the universe unto his children as he moved his great eyes into slumber. 10. Thus did the First Age come to an end.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 04:44 PM	Ao (The Beginning and End, The Eternal One, The Namer, The Shaper) Overgod of Abeir-Toril Multiverse Portfolio: Order, The Universe, Purpose, True Names Aliases: Atun, Brahms, Eternity, High God, Io the Many Headed Dragon, Ptah, Skyfather Alignment: Lawful Neutral Superior: None/The True Ao Allies: All with rare exceptions Enemies: Asmodeus, Cyric, Ghaundaur, Shar, Nerull, Talos Symbol: A pair of eyes across stars, The Infinity Symbol Domains: None Worshiper's Alignment: None Ao (A-O) is the living spirit of the Multiverse as it exists. Unlike other beings of similiar power, Ao has no particular care about whether individuals offer him reverance or not but seems more concerned on how mortals proceed in their spiritual development. Ao appears to be omnipotent by the reckonings of mortals but it would seem not to be the case when dealing with beings like Ghaundaur. Ao rarely manifests to either gods or mortals. Ao prefers to assume a figure that is largely indecipherable but anthropomorphic when dealing with humans. A common manifestation of Ao would be a being composed entirely of Starlight or light. Most beings do not remember what he looks like, even gods, but merely recall an indistinct being of power. History and Relationships: Ao was spontaneously generated from the Chaos, which may mean that he was the first sapient being or he was always a part of the Chaos but chose not to interact until a later time. Ultimately, it depends on how you choose to interpret the nature of the cosmos. Ao proceeded to bring 'order' out of the Cosmos by creating the Elder Gods. Most of the present day Pantheon heads are amongst these ranks with Bahamut, Tiamat, Corellon, Moradin, Garl Glittergold, Yondalla, Selune, Shar, and other recognizable beings amongst them. Certain ancient gods like Ymir and Uranus are also worth mentioning. Ultimately, Ao withdrew from the world after a devastating conflict with Tharizdun. Those who favor a more limited view of Ao believe that the majority of Ao's power is tied up in keeping the chaos of the universe bound (or divided up much of his power amongst his creations). Others prefer to speculate that Ao withdrew of his own accord to allow his creations peace or simply grew weary of the universe. Ao's chief concern when he makes his few appearances seems to be the state of mortals and religion. Why he has taken this bizarre view is anyone's guess but Ao insists that mortals be allowed some semblance of free will and the capacity to explore divergent viewpoints be they good or evil. Despite being the god of Order, he seems to favor mortals being able to choose chaos and freedom with his definition of Order not precluding change or innovation. While one might suggest Ao is an argument for monotheism, the god itself seems to disdain the principles of monotheism since it seems focused on fully devloping the ideals that mortals might think upon as a race. A few have speculated that the entirety of mortal kind is a gigantic tool for the being to come to know fully itself and the nature of reality, so that a lasting and eternal order can be established. Others dismiss such concepts as rubish and believe that such a divine being has no need of humanity. While Ao cast down the gods in Torilspace, he has a much less active place in most other spheres with many not even having ever encountered him through several generations of gods. This could be used to speculate there is some greater purpose to Toril or that it is a world on the brink. Ao, however, has actually barred some worlds from having any divine interference upon them whatsoever. The only gods said to oppose Ao are those eager to destroy all creation or somehow fail to comprehend he's beyond their power. Even with these, the majority of them are like insects unto him and no direct threat. Nevertheless, they present a threat to the order were they ever to gain ascendancy. The only true danger is Tharizdun and his creations getting free. Dogma: Go forth, multiply, and know things.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 05:14 PM	Ghaundaur (The Crimson King, The Crawling Chaos, The Eternal Hunger, The Unnameable Horror, The Unspeakable One, The Elder Elemental Evil) Greater God of the Abyss Portfolio: Chaos, Madness, The Unspeakable Aliases: Azathoth, Flagg (is an avatar of), Jubilex (is an avatar of), Tharizdun (avatar of), Snarl, Nyarlathtotep (other manifestation), The Red Death Alignment: Chaotic Evil Superior: None Allies: Demonkind (unknowing), Gra'azt (unknowing), Great Old Ones, Moander (formerly), The Great Mother, Lolth (unknowing), Pale Night, Shar, Talos (unknowingly) Enemies: All beings that live, Ao, The Elemental Lords Symbol: A burning candle of human flesh with a singe red eye on it Domains: Chaos, Evil, Destruction, Madness Worshiper's Alignment: CN, CE Ghaundaur (Gone-AH-Door) is a flaw in the universe. A portion of the darkness and swirling chaos that is Tharizdun that has broken through the cracks of his imprisonment and manifested itself into the Multiverse. It is one of the most powerful gods currently in existence in the Realms but also little more than 'The Big Toe' as one Prime Material Hero called it of the greater horror that is Tharizdun. Ghaundaur's form is a massive and indescribable embodiment of horrible things that drives most individuals completely insane to look upon. On occasion, the being will assume something slightly more accomadating such as a mass of tentacles, a stinking poisonous cloud, or a despicable monster. Bizarrely, those who think Ghaundaur is too alien to appear as a human being are deeply mistaken as it is perfectly capable of mimicking human form and being a corruptive force that way. It just prefers not to as a general rule. History and Relationships: Ghaundaur is everything that Ao failed to contain within the prison of Tharizdun. The closest analogue to explain what Ghaundaur is that he is an avatar of Tharizdun's true form. A being so powerful that it required the heroism of gods in the same way that mortals have turned the tide in divine conflicts to bring low the mightness of its power. Ghaundaur has many names throughout the cosmos and its manifestation in the Realms is but one of its many tendrils. Many of the primal mysteries of the Multiverse are explained by Ghaundaur's being. The Demiplane of Imprisonment, known in some places as Ravenloft, is actually the holding cell for many of Ghaundaur's corrupted deity followers. The Red Death on Gothic Earth is but one of these terrible beings. The Far Realms and Xoriat are little more than an example of dimensions that have become utterly consumed by the deities' presence. Why do the Inner Planes exist and the Elemental Lords? They exist to weave away the excess elemental energy that is generated from the Chaos that is Tharizdun and continue to weaken its presence. The original corruption of the Giants and their war with the Gods is a direct manifestation of Tharizdun's evil power infesting their hearts. Ghaundaur is not the source of all evil in the cosmos, such a philosophical model is meaningless to him, but he is like oil on the fire. Ghaundaur's motivations are both simple and profound in that he wishes to tear down the whole of creation and return it to Elemental Chaos. This would destroy everything in the cosmos and reduce it all to a swirling madness that would be the primal substance of his being. One does not have to be mad to worship Ghaundaur, one merely has to be tremendously short sighted or able to lie to oneself which Ghaundaur has never found particularly lacking in either gods nor mortals. One can never truly tell when dealing with Ghaundaur or its countless manifestations due to the fact that the swirling chaos is not a being that minds dividing portions of its essence off and sending them merely to chaos trouble in whatever form it may manifest. "Great Old Ones" and other nightmarish entities like the Great Mother are but a sign of how these can become powerful horrors in their own right. Ghaundaur's cults tend to be small but he makes up for them in quantity. In general, the god pays material benefits for human sacrifices and other cannibalistic rights. This alone is enough to attract a reasonable enough amount of veneration from the greedy or superstitious. The god routinely lashes out at his followers for them to satisfy his hunger but only adds to the dangerous allure that is his being. Dogma: Offer lives and souls to the Eternal Hunger and you will be spared for the ultimate destruction or saved for last.
Storm_Silverhand 02-16-08, 06:33 PM	Heya, Just curious, Charles, but does your Ao have worshipers? And if so, does he grant them spells and answer their prayers?
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 06:36 PM	Heya, Just curious, Charles, but does your Ao have worshipers? And if so, does he grant them spells and answer their prayers? Nope. Ao might interact with humans but I'm reminded of a James Earl Jones quote. "I can't tell you the meaning of life and I don't have any answers for you. I'm no longer a public figure and I just want to be left alone." Ao is a cosmic force more than a god. Humans do what they're supposed to and should look to the gods, not him. Humans may worship Ao but he pays them no attention really. I'm reminded somewhat of Gnosticism with the concept of the Demiurge. Edit: The Eternity reference and description is actually a sly reference to Marvel comics "Eternity" http://marvelite.prohosting.com/surfer/profiles/graphics/etenity1.jpg
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 06:51 PM	FYI- Despite the elements of Christianity/Judaism/Islam I throw in on occasion on these write-ups. I doubt I'll ever publish my version of Bahamut on these forums, since there's an explicit joke that he's actually the God of the Abrahamic faiths (including immense displeasure at the [quoting Kevin Smith] ":censored: that get's carried out in his name."). It's a joke that I'm sure wouldn't go over well with the religious views both positive and negative on these forums. But yes, Seraphim are actually Gold Dragons and he sits at the top of Mount Celestia while waiting very unpleasantly for Asmodeus to make his next move. Again, you'd need a serious ability to divorce yourself from RL faith given I combine him with other RL gods too. My players are able to accept it because while some are religious and others not, they all have the ability to treat the cosmology as a fictional construct like Neil Gaiman's Sandman. Nevertheless, I've had bad reactions to him before.
Storm_Silverhand 02-16-08, 06:54 PM	Heya, FYI- Despite the elements of Christianity/Judaism/Islam I throw in on occasion on these write-ups. I doubt I'll ever publish my version of Bahamut on these forums, since there's an explicit joke that he's actually the God of the Abrahamic faiths (including immense displeasure at the [quoting Kevin Smith] ":censored: that get's carried out in his name."). <snip!> At least you don't make him the being that Ao answers to at the end of the Avatar series... :P :D
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 06:57 PM	Yeah, that's one thing that I think was intended by Troy Denning that got 'swept under the rug' by saying he's the DM. Personally, I also think that kind of "My God is Bigger than Your God" business is insulting to gamers of all faiths and lack thereof. It also doesn't fit FR. Oddly, one might argue that Ao himself is a mistake of the TOT even though I ran with it, since Ed created an explicitly Pagan environment. However, despite my tendencies as a Greenwood purist, I used the opportunity to institute a "Law vs. Chaos" style conflict that I felt was lacking. Plus, also institute the Cthulhu Mythos/Dark Tower into my campaign background.
Storm_Silverhand 02-17-08, 02:27 AM	Heya, Yeah, that's one thing that I think was intended by Troy Denning that got 'swept under the rug' by saying he's the DM. I don't think that was his intention at all, and I think that it is quite insulting to Troy Denning to assume that was his intention... Unless it was, in which case I think he should have been FIRED for putting his own religious agenda into the game canon. (Yeah, I know that sounds harsh, but that's what I feel. I play DnD to escape the Real World.) Personally, I also think that kind of "My God is Bigger than Your God" business is insulting to gamers of all faiths and lack thereof. It also doesn't fit FR. Well said. Oddly, one might argue that Ao himself is a mistake of the TOT even though I ran with it, since Ed created an explicitly Pagan environment. However, despite my tendencies as a Greenwood purist, I used the opportunity to institute a "Law vs. Chaos" style conflict that I felt was lacking. Plus, also institute the Cthulhu Mythos/Dark Tower into my campaign background. You probably won't be surprised to know that I absolutely hate Law vs Chaos conflicts. I guess it was one too many attempts to play through the Rod of Seven Parts with a Good non-Lawful character, who was beginning to be railroaded into changing alignment to LN by picking up the parts and being the bunny to be "cursed" by them. I don't feel any emotional engagement in conflicts along Law/Chaos lines - not in the game, not in novels, and not in any other media. It just doesn't interest me. Good vs Evil is another matter entirely.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-17-08, 02:30 AM	Nerull is listed as one of Ao's enemies. Is he in your realms? A father figure for Velsharoon perhaps? :whatsthis
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 02:54 AM	I don't think that was his intention at all, and I think that it is quite insulting to Troy Denning to assume that was his intention... Unless it was, in which case I think he should have been FIRED for putting his own religious agenda into the game canon. (Yeah, I know that sounds harsh, but that's what I feel. I play DnD to escape the Real World.) No offense, Storm_Silverhand but I doubt an offhand reference to a creator god would really phase TSR. In addition to the Seven Heavens and Nine Hells, Dragonlance is an outright Mormon parable. There's magical holy tablets, a set of reading glasses that can read any language, white Native Americans who bring back the nature of the true gods, and one of Paladin's names is the God El'i. The outright fusion of Tolkien's Christianized Paganism with Krynn becomes text in the Appendix for the War of Souls trilogy where we discover that Chaos is actually a Fallen God in the service of the High God. Ultimately, I would have preferred Ao to not have a superior. However, since it was Troy who wrote the TOT, really you have to think that any guy who names the ultimate God A-O is making something of a statement. You probably won't be surprised to know that I absolutely hate Law vs Chaos conflicts. I guess it was one too many attempts to play through the Rod of Seven Parts with a Good non-Lawful character, who was beginning to be railroaded into changing alignment to LN by picking up the parts and being the bunny to be "cursed" by them. :uh-huh: You know, Storm, I really will have to convince you to read my fantasy novel sometimes. Because, we're on such opposite ends of the spectrum on so many things that you'd make the perfect beta-reader (of course, my novel doesn't have any gods in it so you'd probably miss some of the fun). And the Rod of Seven Parts is a favorite object of mine but I think the curse is just sucky. That's why I tone it down to "artifact possession" ala the Ring whenever I run the game. Currently, we're six pieces in and about to use it to slay Gargauth. I don't feel any emotional engagement in conflicts along Law/Chaos lines - not in the game, not in novels, and not in any other media. It just doesn't interest me. Good vs Evil is another matter entirely. Fundamentally, it's a major theme in my Forgotten Realms that Good vs. Evil doesn't exist. This is a non-canon aspect of my FR games that's oddly not reflected in most of my other D&D games. Bizarrely, in Eberron it's the clearest example of Good vs. Evil as the heroes struggle to be good in a world dominated by Khyber and despair. Basically, in my Forgotten Realms, all the evil forces and factions in the world are individuals with a "point" to them. The only exceptions are Fiends like Asmodeus who mostly just want to overthrow the cosmos and spite the gods. But yes, even Ghaundaur is a creature that desires to reducing of reality to chaos with only his MEANS being evil. I've made it a point to undercut the villainy of the bad guys in my Forgotten Realms at nearly every opportunity. Some of the chief offenders here have been Fzoul Chembyrl and Halastar Blackcloak whom the PCs have discovered that (my versions at least) are fairly affiable chaps if not for the fact that.... 1. One is an honest to god believer in totalitarianism. 2. The other is utterly uncaring about anything but his own amusement. I've given both numerous "Pet the Dog" moments in our game with one of the most noticible being my version of Scyulla Darkhope's corruption where Fzoul destroys Orgauth simply because he doesn't believe an honorable enemy like a Paladin of Tyr should be tortured and humiliated (I left the audience's imagination for the degredations likely) as she was. Thus, Scyulla willingly converted to Bane out of a sense of gratitude to Fzoul's evil code of honor. Law vs. Chaos on the other hand is something that works quite well in my games. Ghaundaur as the embodiment of "reducing the universe to anarchy" is something that allows plenty of conflicts. Also, it allows me to keep the relations decidedly frosty with Dwarves and Elves. Elves and Dwarves will usually team up against Orcs and Hobgoblins, usually. However, just as often when neither are present, both races have attempted to wipe the other off the map. Harpers, FYI, *HATE* Paladins and vice versa (Thank you Thornhold!) Of course, there's also the Blood War. The PCs are almost always unique in the fact that they're able to look beyond Law vs. Chaos conflict to the "Greater Good" (which is almost never clear). It provides a strong thematic moment with Sune and Tyr's feud being quite legendary as well. FYI: - The_Mess is welcome to give his own opinions on this conflict since I only run half the game.
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 02:59 AM	Nerull is listed as one of Ao's enemies. Is he in your realms? A father figure for Velsharoon perhaps? :whatsthis Nerull was an alias of the original Bhaal in my Realms. However, this is actually the REAL Nerull as that god has a desire to destroy all the universe so that means he'll eventually get around to Ao.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-17-08, 03:09 AM	Nerull was an alias of the original Bhaal in my Realms. However, this is actually the REAL Nerull as that god has a desire to destroy all the universe so that means he'll eventually get around to Ao. Nice. I like how all the settings are tied in yet the focus is definitely on FR. Speaking of Bhaal, you previously mentioned that the Bhaalspawn have played a role in your realms. How do you portray the Children of Bhaal (has a nice Priory of Zion sound to it :D )? Since Garagos absorbed much of Bhaal's divine essence, do they have any connection to him?
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 03:36 AM	Fzoul Chembryl (The Living Tyrant, The Hammer of Bane, The Lord of Zhentil Keep) Proxy of the Prime Material Plane Portfolio: Tyranny Alignment: Lawful Evil Superior: Bane Allies: Manshoon (Archmage), Khelben Blackstaff (Chosen of Azuth), Scyllua Darkhope (Paladin of Bane), Xvim, The Zhentariam (Leader thereof), Zhentil Empire (Leader thereof) Enemies: Elminster (Chosen of Azuth), The Seven Sisters (Chosen of Mystra) Domains: Law, Nobility, War Favored Weapon: War Hammer Fzoul Chembryl (FOUL-Zoll CHEM-Brill) is the King of the Zhentil Empire that stretches over much of the Moonsea, the former nation of Thar, and is a kingdom that has arisen in the wake of the Spell Plague. The Tyrant has outlasted three gods and managed to maintain the steady loyalty of his flock as well as the fear of his citizenry. Physical Description: Until the return of Bane, Fzoul Chembryl was an aged and sickly man that barely managed to get out of bed every day. Despite offers by Manshoon to clone him, Fzoul continued in his body and kept himself alive through potions of longevity. Now, the return of Bane has resulted in him being restored to full youth and vigor. Unlike the common stereotype of a Priest, Fzoul enjoys being at the forefront of any battle and has no fear of mixing it up with his opponents. History: Fzoul Chembryl was born a minor nobleman of Zhentil Keep who personally longed to go forth and do battle with the many enemies that assailed his merchant homeland. His family attempted to dispose of him by sending him to the Church of the Lawgiver but while Fzoul responded well to the faith of Bane, he utterly loathed the annoying busy-body like nature of most Imperceptors. Instead, paradoxically, Fzoul admired the warrior priests of Torm and other gods who got out on the battlefield with hammer and shield. Fzoul Chembryl was declared an enemy of the faith early on as the Lawgiver faith despised the idea of any Cleric leaving the hierarchy, let alone leading bands of mercenaries in warrior assaults in the name of Bane. Ultimately, Fzoul envisioned himself as the father of a new kingdom that he would forge with his own two hands and blood. Fzoul's first army, that would go on to become the basis for much of the Zhentilar, was little more than a gang of ruffians but which behaved in a manner slightly more honorable than most of their kind thanks to the priest's delusion he was a great leader. Fzoul would have gone onto to eventually die in some siege or at the hands of a Lawgiver assassin were not for an old friend from his youth, King Manshoon the First, calling him back to provide legitimacy for his usurpation of the Crown. Fzoul found himself the second in command of the Black Network as his men served as a secret police during the early years of Manshoon's reign. From there, the two men set out to begin their plot to conquer all of Faerun. The past two centuries or so of their efforts have been mixed in their results. Bluntly, the two men could not have been more different in their interpretation of how to go about building an Empire if one of them was a Paladin of Tyr. Fzoul favored overt military conquest, a certain amount of honesty in all diplomatic relations, maintaining a standard of honor amongst all military units, and motivating the populous through an inspired mixture of nationalist-religious fervor. Manshoon, on the other hand, spent almost all of his time practicing on where to stick the knife in any dealing. Ultimately, the death of Bane and the efforts of Shandril the Spellfire wielder resulted in much of their Empire building falling to ashes. The Zhentariam, nevertheless, endured and slowly expanded it's control over much of the surrounding area. It helped that Fzoul was a genuinely good administrator who built up all of the necessary infrastructure to transform the city state into a genuine kingdom. One always had to fear Black Network agents coming in the middle of the night and spying on every conversation but life was bearable for most of its citizens. The recent return of Bane has been a mixed blessing for Fzoul. The Tyrant god is eager to begin a new campaign of conquest and strife throughout the Heartlands but Fzoul is less than eager to unite the Southlands against him. Fzoul would dearly like to add the Dales to the Zhentilar Empire's possessions but knows well the possibility of a united Elvish and Cormyr resistance. Bizarrely, Fzoul is more concerned about the Northern Netherese and other planar excursions than the farmer folk. He had also forgotten some of his gods more baser qualities. Fzoul has had three sons by a trio of political marriages and adopted at least one child. Unfortunately, all three of the children were depraved animals that lacked utterly Fzoul's honor but possessed all of his darker qualities. Fzoul's adopted son, The Pereghost, is the only one who might have been a worthy successor but has abandoned the service of Bane to become a Champion of Cyric. Currently, Fzoul has developed a father-daughter like mentor relationship with Scyllua Darkhope. Personality: Fzoul and Doctor Victor Von Doom share a lot of qualities in common. Quite simply, Fzoul fancies himself an honorable man and is generous in victory. Fzoul treats the people of Zhentil Keep and its surrounding territories like they are his own personal property but is brutal in his vengeance to anyone who harms them without his permission. Those who submit utterly to Fzoul's service will find that he rarely bothers with vengeance and often lavishes wealth upon those who serve him diligently. The Zhentilar's reputation for pillage and rapine are actually propaganda or the actions of deserters since Fzoul refuses to tolerate a 'breakdown in discipline.' One could almost mistake Fzoul Chembryl for Lawful Neutral; were not he a man that will put an entire city to sword if it refuses to surrender before an assigned date, a man who willingly engages in the torture and slavery of anyone that resists against his rule, and a man who will not rest until he has successfully placed the entirety of the world under the 'benevolent' guiding hand of Bane.
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 03:50 AM	Nice. I like how all the settings are tied in yet the focus is definitely on FR. Speaking of Bhaal, you previously mentioned that the Bhaalspawn have played a role in your realms. How do you portray the Children of Bhaal (has a nice Priory of Zion sound to it :D )? Since Garagos absorbed much of Bhaal's divine essence, do they have any connection to him? Bhaalspawn I used a variant of the Bhaalspawn rules in Dragon Magazine. Specifically, you only get the "Benefit" and "Curse" as you go up in level if you've successfully killed at least one Bhaalspawn for each Benefit and Curse you want to gain. It's very Highlander and helps encourage player characters to want to hunt down and destroy their brother-sister Bhaalspawn. Likewise, if a Bhaalspawn is responsible for the death of 20,000 individuals whether directly or through proxy then he will immediately ascend to the status of Demigod. Thus, we've got individuals like Sarevok and Yaga-Shura outright spreading their slaughter across the land in order to help themselves rise to the status of godhood that they desire. In the campaign we're currently in, The Pereghost is actually a Bhaalspawn and the party responsible for most of the evil going on post-Spellplague Cormyr (also a Bhaalspawn PC's twin brother). He's furthermore, the Chosen of Cyric whom is the key to that god's attempt to free himself from his prison. So far, the PCs have managed to kill several Bhaalspawn that have managed their own evils while building up for the final confrontation with The Pereghost. Since Baldur's Gate, per say isn't canon in my Realms, I've also used Imoen and other figures from the games liberally. I've even suggested that the real name of the Pereghost is actually Sarevok. Balthazar the False Monk has already met his end at the PC's hands and Volumax absorbed the Bhaalspawn essence of Dag Zoreth in order to try to make his own transition to lesser godhood with the help of Shar (Volumax is now quite permanently dead in our games). Thus far, I haven't quite revealed anything about Garagos to the PCs but they don't realize that they're being subtely helped by the Reaver. The CE God of Murder is a man whom very much wants to see Bhaal's name spread far and wide across the Realms, which the Bhaalspawn are doing, but doesn't want any of them to genuinely ascend to the rank of God. Garagos may, eventually, attempt to absorb the essence of the PC Bhaalspawn or others that are close to achieving godhood.
Vrbook 02-17-08, 07:35 AM	Howdy Charles. I'm not quite getting your version of Fzoul. You have him statted like a god, yet you don't mention in his storyline anything about him being a deity. ???
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 01:56 PM	Howdy Charles. I'm not quite getting your version of Fzoul. You have him statted like a god, yet you don't mention in his storyline anything about him being a deity. ??? Fzoul is Bane's proxy, just like the other Chosen. I just wanted to share my version of him.
Storm_Silverhand 02-17-08, 04:58 PM	Heya, No offense, Storm_Silverhand but I doubt an offhand reference to a creator god would really phase TSR. In addition to the Seven Heavens and Nine Hells, Dragonlance is an outright Mormon parable. Dragonlance is a different matter. Everything you go on to mention was there right from the start. Plus at least one of the things you mentioned (the spectacles) were actually a legitimate magical item in the 1st Ed DMG... Such an idea could easily be arrived at independently of the religion. Fallen Gods are a common theme, and not always because of Judeo-Chrisitian based religious themes. Anyway, I think someone has already mentioned that Ao is not actually named after Alpha and Omega... Note, the o is small, the A is a capital, they are not both capitals anywhere it's been written except in your own posts here, and quite probably your campaign notes. :uh-huh: You know, Storm, I really will have to convince you to read my fantasy novel sometimes. Because, we're on such opposite ends of the spectrum on so many things that you'd make the perfect beta-reader (of course, my novel doesn't have any gods in it so you'd probably miss some of the fun). Hmm... This makes me wonder if you have received my last e-mail (sent on the 15th) at all. :) Let me know if you haven't, and I'll resend it. And the Rod of Seven Parts is a favorite object of mine but I think the curse is just sucky. That's why I tone it down to "artifact possession" ala the Ring whenever I run the game. Currently, we're six pieces in and about to use it to slay Gargauth. Yeah, well our DM was quite a fan of Law vs Chaos. He had his own home brewed god called Triton or something like that, who was ostensibly LN, but often acted almost LE (IMHO, the DM, of course would probably disagree) - and he kept popping up, even when he ran Forgotten Realms campaigns. I think he may have been the DMs Marty Stu, because Triton seemed to be on a different (higher) power level to other deities no matter where he appeared. But even if it wasn't for that... Law, Chaos, who gives a toss? I just can't bring myself to care, and that is a major issue with me. Usually when people give it as the theme for their story, it's thinly veiled Good (Law) vs Evil (Chaos)... I know of one series that reversed that (Chaos was Good, Law was Evil), but if you go back and look at Basic Dungeons and Dragons, there were only three alignments - Law, Neutrality, and Chaos... Law and Chaos being thinly veiled Good and Evil respectively. So, if there's a book series that is supposed to be about Law vs Chaos, and it grabs my attention and makes me care - the chances are, Law is Good and Chaos is Evil in the story. Thus, Scyulla willingly converted to Bane out of a sense of gratitude to Fzoul's evil code of honor. Which I am sure you are aware is not the reason Scyulla converted in canon. It was Orgauth who swayed her with "honeyed words" (acting, I suppose, as her "peaceful contact with an evil outsider"). Personally I would have had her redeemed in the end, simply because I liked the (very) brief description we had of her before she fell (first impressions and all that) - and I hate the idea that because you are the child of an evil person (as Scyulla is, I believe), you will become evil yourself with no hope of doing anything different, even when you try.
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 05:24 PM	Dragonlance is a different matter. Everything you go on to mention was there right from the start. Plus at least one of the things you mentioned (the spectacles) were actually a legitimate magical item in the 1st Ed DMG... Such an idea could easily be arrived at independently of the religion. Fallen Gods are a common theme, and not always because of Judeo-Chrisitian based religious themes. Touche. Hmm... This makes me wonder if you have received my last e-mail (sent on the 15th) at all. Let me know if you haven't, and I'll resend it. Alas, I did not. Please resend or gimme a PM, Stormie. Yeah, well our DM was quite a fan of Law vs Chaos. He had his own home brewed god called Triton or something like that, who was ostensibly LN, but often acted almost LE (IMHO, the DM, of course would probably disagree) - and he kept popping up, even when he ran Forgotten Realms campaigns. I think he may have been the DMs Marty Stu, because Triton seemed to be on a different (higher) power level to other deities no matter where he appeared. Noted. I remember well getting the Rod of Seven Parts box set and being bitterly disappointed with the pedestrian adventures aside. Honestly, it seemed like the resolution of a 20,000 year or so war between the fundamental forces of the universe was going to be handled by going across a few inns. I also felt like the Queen of Chaos was way too stereotyped. Thus, in my Lolth write-up, you'll find that she's explicitly the party that was responsible for the War of Law vs. Chaos. But even if it wasn't for that... Law, Chaos, who gives a toss? I just can't bring myself to care, and that is a major issue with me. Usually when people give it as the theme for their story, it's thinly veiled Good (Law) vs Evil (Chaos)... I know of one series that reversed that (Chaos was Good, Law was Evil), but if you go back and look at Basic Dungeons and Dragons, there were only three alignments - Law, Neutrality, and Chaos... Law and Chaos being thinly veiled Good and Evil respectively. So, if there's a book series that is supposed to be about Law vs Chaos, and it grabs my attention and makes me care - the chances are, Law is Good and Chaos is Evil in the story. Yes, I don't care for the Warhammerization of Law vs. Chaos. If you're going to make dripping nightmarish Fiends of Horror into the Gods of Chaos while the servants of Order are ambigously good then you might as well call it good vs. evil. Ultimately, I think the best treatment of Law vs. Chaos is as a backdrop to the universe rather than something that players themselves are meant to whole heartedly embrace. If a hero embraces the service of Law and/or Chaos utterly then they're going to be flawed heroes by nature in my campaign. I guess what I'm saying is that I like the conflict between Law and Chaos solely to generate artificial conflict. I.e. Elves and Dwarves hate each other because one prized individuality while the others prize their communities above all else. The Gods of the House of the Triad loathe the Brightwater gods because they cannot reconcile their love of discipline with their freespiritedness. It allows the PCs to be caught up in conflicts that cripples the forces of good every bit as much as the forces of evil are crippled. Also, it helps the PCs become more important simpy by their ability to transcend the barrier. Of course, part of this may be I'm a designer in the Ortho Campaign Setting on Planewalker boards where the Harmonium is from (Law vs. Chaos is the main issue). The joke being the Harmonium portrays the Gods of Chaos as purely evil while they're based in Arborea. Which I am sure you are aware is not the reason Scyulla converted in canon. It was Orgauth who swayed her with "honeyed words" (acting, I suppose, as her "peaceful contact with an evil outsider"). Personally I would have had her redeemed in the end, simply because I liked the (very) brief description we had of her before she fell (first impressions and all that) - and I hate the idea that because you are the child of an evil person (as Scyulla is, I believe), you will become evil yourself with no hope of doing anything different, even when you try. Just so we're absolutely clear. I've given both numerous "Pet the Dog" moments in our game with one of the most noticible being my version of Scyulla Darkhope's corruption where Fzoul destroys Orgauth simply because he doesn't believe an honorable enemy like a Paladin of Tyr should be tortured and humiliated (I left the audience's imagination for the degredations likely) as she was. The canon Fzoul Chembryl allied with Orgauth the Pit Fiend willingly. Furthermore, Fzoul is an absolute filthy :censored: whom somehow manages to make the situation in Hillsafar worse despite it being a Hellhole to begin with. He also has that ugly, ugly, ugly moment where he refuses to ressurect Scyulla because of her failure in Shadowdale. Really, I'm the first to admit my version of Fzoul is WAYYYYYY removed from canon. As much as Lliira from her version in 616-FR.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-17-08, 07:33 PM	But even if it wasn't for that... Law, Chaos, who gives a toss? [/i]. I give a toss! ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-17-08, 07:47 PM	I don't think that was his intention at all, and I think that it is quite insulting to Troy Denning to assume that was his intention... Unless it was, in which case I think he should have been FIRED for putting his own religious agenda into the game canon. (Yeah, I know that sounds harsh, but that's what I feel. I play DnD to escape the Real World.) Well, Phil Athans didn't get fired for penning a trilogy (which is of course canon) that was basically a love note to Ayn Rand and an endorsement of her philosophy (Objectivism)--and yes, he stated as much, and it's obvious to me having read the books. In fact, he's one of the main people developing the 4E FR. Not that that has much to do with the topic... But I agree that we can't know what Troy Denning "really intended" with the end of the Avatar Trilogy. I always thought the mysterious figure was supposed to be the DM.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-17-08, 07:53 PM	Which I am sure you are aware is not the reason Scyulla converted in canon. It was Orgauth who swayed her with "honeyed words" (acting, I suppose, as her "peaceful contact with an evil outsider"). Personally I would have had her redeemed in the end, simply because I liked the (very) brief description we had of her before she fell (first impressions and all that) - and I hate the idea that because you are the child of an evil person (as Scyulla is, I believe), you will become evil yourself with no hope of doing anything different, even when you try. I hate that idea, myself.
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 07:58 PM	I hate that idea, myself. Well, I don't mind people trying to rise above their pasts and failing as a change from automatic success. However, I always liked the idea that Scy's Fall was meant to be a tremendous Tragedy. She's a major villain in our games in large part because so many players sympathize with her. Her story wouldn't be nearly so enticing were I to use canon and it's like "Okay, join Evil cause its got a better dental plan."
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-17-08, 08:19 PM	Her story wouldn't be nearly so enticing were I to use canon and it's like "Okay, join Evil cause its got a better dental plan." Well, some people might do that.:P
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-17-08, 08:40 PM	Charles, I your realms how have you presented Malkizid and Errtu, as well as the Daemonfey and the Kir-Lanans? I always thought that more could be done with the soulless gargoyles.
Storm_Silverhand 02-17-08, 10:27 PM	Heya, Alas, I did not. Please resend or gimme a PM, Stormie. Re-sent. :) I also felt like the Queen of Chaos was way too stereotyped. Thus, in my Lolth write-up, you'll find that she's explicitly the party that was responsible for the War of Law vs. Chaos. You don't get more stereotyped than being the personification of a single "fundamental" concept. Yes, I don't care for the Warhammerization of Law vs. Chaos. If you're going to make dripping nightmarish Fiends of Horror into the Gods of Chaos while the servants of Order are ambigously good then you might as well call it good vs. evil. Strangely enough, I like the Warhammer Fantasy setting... Which is a sure sign that Chaos = Evil and Law = Good there. (Plus it's home to one of my favorite fantasy deities outside of the Realms - Myrmidia.) Ultimately, I think the best treatment of Law vs. Chaos is as a backdrop to the universe rather than something that players themselves are meant to whole heartedly embrace. If a hero embraces the service of Law and/or Chaos utterly then they're going to be flawed heroes by nature in my campaign. I guess what I'm saying is that I like the conflict between Law and Chaos solely to generate artificial conflict. I.e. Elves and Dwarves hate each other because one prized individuality while the others prize their communities above all else. The Gods of the House of the Triad loathe the Brightwater gods because they cannot reconcile their love of discipline with their freespiritedness. You said it - it's ARTIFICIAL. That is probably why I don't like it. I just can't see Tyr, Torm, Ilmater, Siamorphe, and Helm hating Sune, Tymora, Lliira, Waukeen, and Sharess. I can see them not caring for them, but I can't see hate or enmity. Tyr would unhesitatingly ally with Sune in the face of a conflict Bane or Cyric - in my opinion the latter half of an entity's alignment is the most important part... Sune and Tyr might go about things differently, but in the end they're both about promoting their own GOOD agendas... That overrides any other consideration, IMHO. Outside of a direct conflict versus an evil foe, they may not have much time for each other - but they certainly would respect each other. @Rin - Maybe I stated my opinion too strongly. I also viewed the entity at the end of the Avatar trilogy as being the DM, and I never had any idea that it could even be interpreted as being the God of the Judeo-Christian faiths until someone said it in a thread somewhere on these boards a while back. I found the idea quite appalling, to be honest, and far too blatant. While I don't mind the occasional symbol or hint, I do mind the implication that even in the Realms, the only true god is God.
Kiioro 02-17-08, 11:13 PM	I liked your rendition of Cyric (for me it makes way more sense than his greater deity status where he had all of his clergy at odds with each other), Mask and Sharess. I too have the same question that was posted before, but focused on the Fey'ri (Daemonfey too). How do they work in your realms?
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 11:51 PM	Re-sent. Got and will respond. You don't get more stereotyped than being the personification of a single "fundamental" concept. Well, if Tyr can believe in Order then Lolth can believe in Chaos. You said it - it's ARTIFICIAL. That is probably why I don't like it. Understood. I just can't see Tyr, Torm, Ilmater, Siamorphe, and Helm hating Sune, Tymora, Lliira, Waukeen, and Sharess. I can see them not caring for them, but I can't see hate or enmity. Tyr would unhesitatingly ally with Sune in the face of a conflict Bane or Cyric - in my opinion the latter half of an entity's alignment is the most important part... Sune and Tyr might go about things differently, but in the end they're both about promoting their own GOOD agendas... That overrides any other consideration, IMHO. Outside of a direct conflict versus an evil foe, they may not have much time for each other - but they certainly would respect each other. And that's perfectly justifiable and a legitimate take that's probably pretty close to canon. For me, I always tend to think about hardcore military men vs. hippies. At heart, in LvC games, Tyr believes that Sune allows evil to fester (she's a very poor choice for the "Chaotic Good" god and honestly I would prefer the Seldarine or a new god but whatcha gonna do---Chaos is underrepresented in canon). Tyr believes that everyone should be Lawful Good because Lawful is the Path to Good. Chaos Good isn't just another path to Good, it directly undermines it and allows evil to grow more powerful. Arguably worse than hate, Sune and Tyr disdain the other. Against Bane and Cyric, absolutely, those two will ally. However, in the wake of a Tyrite purge of Banites and Cyricists, you might see those two ally. The Banites and Cyricists will use knives and the like at the end while mostly Tyrites and Sunites just don't like one another but the tension is always brewing. It's much more outright loathing between Elves and Dwarves, though even they have places they're friendly. While I don't mind the occasional symbol or hint, I do mind the implication that even in the Realms, the only true god is God. I might just be completely off the bat there, but I assumed it was a "God-God" figure because I didn't think it was meta-textual but literal. I.e. Ao was answering to SOME omnipotent power that controlled millions of other Overpowers. Get what I mean?
Charles Phipps 02-18-08, 12:50 AM	Charles, I your realms how have you presented Malkizid and Errtu, as well as the Daemonfey and the Kir-Lanans? I always thought that more could be done with the soulless gargoyles. Ultimately, I changed the Fey'ri a great deal in my games to better "tie-together" certain themes that had been developing in our games. Malkizid (The Branded King, The High King of the Shadow Court, The Dark Lord of the Formorians, The Twice Damned) Renegade Archdevil of Carceri Portfolio: See Asmodeus Aliases: None Alignment: Neutral Evil Superior: Asmodeus Allies: Bel, Gra'azt, Errtu, Lolth, The Unseelie Court Enemies: Belenus (Non-FR god), Bridget (Non-FR god), Lugh (Non-FR God), Oghma, The Seldarine, The Seelie Court Symbol: A Burning Brand in the shape of a Demonic Sigil Domains: None Worshiper's Alignment: LE, NE, CE Malkizid is a fallen Greater Divine Eldarin servant of the Seldarine. Now banished to the prison-plane of Carceri, he is a figure that constantly plots his revenge and the establishment of a Realm greater in glory than that of Arvandor. Much of his diabolical blood runs through the ranks of the many Tieflings and Fey'ri that exist in the Realms. It is his belief that he can transform the whole of the elvish race into his evil servitors through such foul breedings. Malkizid is a beautiful elvish divine being that most instantly fall in love with. He uses his Shapechange, Mass Charm and Suggestion powers to overwhelm the sense of disgust and loathing that his innate evil brings out in most beings. Malkizid's true form is that of a gigantic Elf-like being with glowing red eyes, a set of thin horns on the top of his head, and cloven hooves. He prefers to garb himself in tremendous finery as befitting his self-believed station. History and Relationships: Malkizid was once one of the Great Lords of the Faerie Realm that served as the Lords over the Eldarin in much the same way that Solar Deva serve over the servants of Order. Malkizid was known as a Tuatha De Daanan and was amongst their greatest warriors and Kings. Malkizid's true name is lost to the mists of time but it is suspected that he was once a legendary figure of that warrior people of Arborea. Most legends suggest that he was already tainted even from his birth with the blood of the First Balor and is thus a child relation to Lugh the Long Arm. Nevertheless, the story of Malkizid's tragic fall begins with an epic poem known amongst the Elves where said Tuatha proceeded to break faith with his brothers in a manner that named him an oathbreaker thanks to the cursed manipulations of an evil spirit. This is believed by most elven scholars to the, as yet, unfallen form of Araunshnee whom was already a source of chaos in the Fae's myths. Malkizid would then proceed to fall to the service of Asmodeus where he'd scheme to destroy the gods whom were his former associates. It was known that when the war with the Seldarine came that Araunshnee fell, Malkizid joined forth with a terrible host of Devils to burn and pillage Arborea as part of a vengeance against them. Ultimately, Malkizid's terrible nature would result in him backing the plots of Gargauth in his scheme to overthrow the Lords of the Nine (unaware that Gargauth was just an avatar of Asmodeus). This resulted in the Tuatha De Daanan losing the portion of Baalzebul's realm that he'd possessed for himself and being cast to Carceri where he was imprisoned with the rest of the failures. Malkizid is, truth be told, a truly pathetic figure. Like most of the outcasts of Carceri, he schemes relentlessly against his exile but will never amount to anything more than a nussiance to his former foes. He has become like the Titans of Olympus or the figure of Cyric, a figure that believes he can genuinely strike back at Asmodeus or the Seldarine enough to assume their place. Suffice to say, it is extremely unlikely. This has not prevented Malkizid from being a terrible threat to the elves and Faerie aligned folks of many worlds, however. On Abeir-Toril alone, he is a horror responsible for many outrages against the elves. Malkizid deluded the greatest High Mage of all time, Joneleth Irenicus, into believing he was worthy of becoming a member of the Seldarine (and the mage's subsequent curse by the gods). Maklizid is also the party responsible for the corruption of House Dlardrageth into their nightmarish bonding with fiends (and later the interbreeding with many human noble houses of the realms like House Cormaeril). Other famous incidents that astute plane-walkers may know of is that he is the party behind the God-King Gwydion (a chief lieutenant of his) that created the race known as the Shadowfae in the Demiplane of Dread. Malkizid continues his spreading of his fairy-demon worship and the cross-breeding of the damned with the Fair Folk. The destruction of Joneleth Irenicus, the eradication of the Fey'ri host, and similiar setbacks have left Malkizid berift of allies. However, he's already starting new plots with Kymil Nemsin and the Glorious Blade of the people being amongst his next targets. Gra'azt has already started appearing to him as his old ally Gargauth and it is unlikely he will ever figure out he's being played. "Someday, yes, someday..." is a set of words frequently heard from his prison-palace. Dogma: Malkizid preaches that the fusion of Demonic (or Devil) blood with that of the Fair Folk shall give birth to a race unlike any other. Malkizid is a lusty god and he's frequently prone to siring get on the female elves that catch his eye (though he's by no means limited to them in sex). This act helps strike back at the Seldarine and slowly win them over to his service. The Drow are natural allies in this struggle but should be converted from Lolth or Vhaeraun's worship whenever possible in order to know the greater glory of the Branded King. Malkizid encourages the mating of elves with humans and offers a place for Half-Elves at his table. It is Malkizid's belief that Half-elven blood will breed trurer and more often than Elven blood, especially for the greater promotion of Tieflings. The Seldarine and gods like them are to be spited at every opportunity with a greater Fairie Empire set up in the god's name.
Storm_Silverhand 02-18-08, 07:37 AM	Heya, Well, if Tyr can believe in Order then Lolth can believe in Chaos. Of course. I wasn't disputing that. I was just saying that The Queen of Chaos (I don't think she was supposed to be Lolth) from the Rod of Seven Parts couldn't help but be stereotypical because she is the literal personification of Chaos. If that makes sense? For me, I always tend to think about hardcore military men vs. hippies. At heart, in LvC games, Tyr believes that Sune allows evil to fester (she's a very poor choice for the "Chaotic Good" god and honestly I would prefer the Seldarine or a new god but whatcha gonna do---Chaos is underrepresented in canon). Tyr believes that everyone should be Lawful Good because Lawful is the Path to Good. Chaos Good isn't just another path to Good, it directly undermines it and allows evil to grow more powerful. Oooh, careful with associating the military solely with Law. Tempus is CN and he's the ultimate war god in the Realms, many soldiers and officers worship him. I don't know what you've done with Selune, but she'd made a good alternate to Sune as the ultimate representative of Chaotic Good. Sune has been much maligned and poorly portrayed in the Realms - contrary to the common belief that she's a "bimbo", I think Sune has the potential for depth that's easy to overlook. Just taking into account the breadth and scope of her portfolio shows there are many facets to her that we just have not seen on paper. Still, I agree with you - I'd hesitate to make Sune the ultimate Chaotic Good deity - now I think about it, that "title" probably rightfully belongs to Selune anyway. As for Chaos being under represented - what makes you say that? Arguably worse than hate, Sune and Tyr disdain the other. Against Bane and Cyric, absolutely, those two will ally. However, in the wake of a Tyrite purge of Banites and Cyricists, you might see those two ally. The Banites and Cyricists will use knives and the like at the end while mostly Tyrites and Sunites just don't like one another but the tension is always brewing. It's much more outright loathing between Elves and Dwarves, though even they have places they're friendly. I don't really agree with you. Sune represents two things that are of vital importance to a Chivalric Knight - Love and Passion. Love is obviously important, Courtly Love is one of the themes out of Arthurian legends, and no paladin worth his or her salt is worthy of the mantle without passion for their job, for their ideology, and for their deity's cause. Maybe I was wrong, maybe what I should have said was that a Deity's portfolio is more important than their alignment... Mortals are a different matter, though, and I think it's more general ideology rather than Law vs Chaos that really effects relationships between cultures. I might just be completely off the bat there, but I assumed it was a "God-God" figure because I didn't think it was meta-textual but literal. I.e. Ao was answering to SOME omnipotent power that controlled millions of other Overpowers. Get what I mean? Yeah, the DM. ;) The DM fits that bill perfectly. What I was trying to say is that there are people out there who say that Ao's superior is specifically the Judeo-Christian God.
Charles Phipps 02-18-08, 11:57 AM	Yeah, the DM. The DM fits that bill perfectly. What I was trying to say is that there are people out there who say that Ao's superior is specifically the Judeo-Christian God. I'm confused, when did the DM exist in the D&D universe? But yeah, it's just a flavor choice on my part re: Law vs. Chaos.
The_Mess 02-18-08, 02:15 PM	No offense, Storm_Silverhand Having recently abandoned a forum where the people involved couldn't disagree about anything without immediately going to the "Not only are you dead wrong but you're also dog-stupid!" level, I just want to say how refreshing it is to see two people disagree so often while also respecting each other's views. Please, carry on. Fundamentally, it's a major theme in my Forgotten Realms that Good vs. Evil doesn't exist. This is a non-canon aspect of my FR games that's oddly not reflected in most of my other D&D games. Bizarrely, in Eberron it's the clearest example of Good vs. Evil as the heroes struggle to be good in a world dominated by Khyber and despair. Don't kid yourself, Charlie. Good vs. evil didn't exist in your Eberron game either! Or don't you remember how long the PCs spent working for the bad guys because they were more likeable than the other bad guys. I've made it a point to undercut the villainy of the bad guys in my Forgotten Realms at nearly every opportunity. Some of the chief offenders here have been Fzoul Chembyrl and Halastar Blackcloak whom the PCs have discovered that (my versions at least) are fairly affiable chaps {snip} The flip side being some of his good guys are extremely dangerous, of course. 1. One is an honest to god believer in totalitarianism. 2. The other is utterly uncaring about anything but his own amusement. Yeah, but you've got a PC who embodies #2. :-) Law vs. Chaos on the other hand is something that works quite well in my games. This I agree with. Of course, I might be biased. Charlie will remember a superhero campaign I ran where Law and Chaos were fundamental, deity-level entities, while good and evil were not. Essentially the result of the manifested psychic potential of a race that believed "good" existed only as a balance between opposing evil forces, one of whom wanted to reduce the universe to a single crystalline moment of perfect clarity, while the other wanted to depose all laws, including the laws of physics and reduce the universe to random potential. These forces then spawned war throughout the cosmos. When Babylon 5 did something similar with the Shadow/Vorlon war, I felt quite ripped off. I'd have sued the author, but my lawyer didn't buy the, "J. Michael Straczynski has a chip in my brain and is stealing all my good ideas by electrotelekinesis!" argument. Silly sceptic! He'll know how wrong he is JMS co-opts my epic about hyper-intelligent octopus declaring war on mankind! (Seriously, though, the number of my ideas that ended up in Babylon 5 and Rising Stars is scary. I guess great minds really do think alike!) Maybe it makes sense to me because of my upbringing, but law vs. chaos feels very real to me, while good and evil sometimes feel very abstract. Mostly, I don't like the D&D alignment system much at all, since it's rather inflexible and really needs part-grades... or just abandoned. I think I may like 4e better, but we'll see. Frankly, I just can't see anyone, ever, self-identifying as evil as it's defined in most game worlds. Sure, it works for demons and devils and things that are naturally evil, but I just can't see a human cultist saying, "I'm evil, ask me how!" People don't join cults to be evil, they join cults that match their definition of "good". Are the suicide bombers evil? Terrorists? Not to them! They're fighting for a greater ideal! It's easy to call them evil and sweep their position under the rug, of course. That's part of the problem, for me. "Good" and "evil" are tossed around with careless abandon, easy labels for anything the labeler cares to mark with his opinion. "Evil" is used to justify horrible acts against "the other" and has been for centuries. It doesn't work in the real world. It works in the fantasy world only by either implying free will is a joke or that evil is an actual force that nobody sane would ever align with, thus making evil equivalent to insanity. Even people who are completely selfish to the core are better off as neutral in D&D's alignment scheme. Also, it allows me to keep the relations decidedly frosty with Dwarves and Elves. Elves and Dwarves will usually team up against Orcs and Hobgoblins, usually. Elves vs. dwarves shows the limitations of the L/C alignment scale, though. Elves are socially rigid, devout, full of ceremonies and practitioners of mental arts of disciplines, but supposedly chaotic. Dwarves are known for drunken rages, war mongering, taking insult easily, but are supposedly paragons of law. Frankly, neither has been well served by alignment stereotypes. 4e seems to have realized this by splitting elves up into "Lawful elf stereotype Eladrin" and "Chaotic elf stereotype we'll just call elves". Dwarves... maybe they'll get split in 5e! I'm confused, when did the DM exist in the D&D universe? You remember, don't you? He gave Hank the bow and Presto the hat... FYI- Despite the elements of Christianity/Judaism/Islam I throw in on occasion on these write-ups. I doubt I'll ever publish my version of Bahamut on these forums, since there's an explicit joke that he's actually the God of the Abrahamic faiths (including immense displeasure at the [quoting Kevin Smith] ":censored: that get's carried out in his name."). So, Bahamut, whom you say is the Abrahamic god, serves Ao, whom I've always taken for Buddha in your handling. Message here? :-) I'm not quite getting your version of Fzoul. You have him statted like a god, yet you don't mention in his storyline anything about him being a deity. ??? Charlie can correct me if I'm wrong here, but in 616-space, Chosen can have their own small cults and even provide divine energy (spells) to a very small pool of followers. Scyulla would, presumably, be one of Fzoul's. Hmm... Lisa needs a cult following! (Sculya's) story wouldn't be nearly so enticing were I to use canon and it's like "Okay, join Evil cause its got a better dental plan." Well, duh. You join evil because Thursday-night poker is more fun than Tuesday-night bingo. And good has a much better dental plan, unless you're an evil seducer type. The evil seducer subtype will not only cover all your dental, but plastic surgery as well. Oooh, careful with associating the military solely with Law. Tempus is CN and he's the ultimate war god in the Realms, many soldiers and officers worship him. Well, worshiping a concept goes beyond alignment. Let's put it this way, deities aren't bound by their alignment when taking domains. If they were, all nature gods would be true neutral. I guarantee, nature itself is doesn't care about alignments. While most nature gods are neutral in some respect, most of them aren't true neutral. Red Knight might be the lawful neutral goddess of planning and strategy, but that doesn't mean a chaotic evil goblin king can't worship her and make detailed plans for carrying out his aims. Sune being chaotic good doesn't mean lawfuls can't, uh... engage in the ceremony of her worship... they just have to be boring about it. :-) Alignment reflects the personality of the deity. There will be influence between alignment and portfolio, but they don't define each other and shouldn't limit worshippers unnecessarily. I don't know what you've done with Selune, but she'd made a good alternate to Sune as the ultimate representative of Chaotic Good. Sune has been much maligned and poorly portrayed in the Realms - contrary to the common belief that she's a "bimbo", I think Sune has the potential for depth that's easy to overlook. Sune is one of the more genuinely caring deities in Charlie's pantheon and not at all a bimbo. I don't really agree with you. Sune represents two things that are of vital importance to a Chivalric Knight - Love and Passion. Love is obviously important, Courtly Love is one of the themes out of Arthurian legends, and no paladin worth his or her salt is worthy of the mantle without passion for their job, for their ideology, and for their deity's cause. Courtly love is an ill-fit for Sune's chaotic nature. It is the embodiment of subsuming chaos and forcing even love to play by the rules. Wee Jas will be using this as one of her inroads and portfolio claims as she moves into Faerūn. Sune won't like having her corps of paladins taken away, so there will be some conflict... Maybe I was wrong, maybe what I should have said was that a Deity's portfolio is more important than their alignment... You have, I think, just answered your question about guards worshiping Tempus.
Soltares 02-18-08, 02:54 PM	Maybe it makes sense to me because of my upbringing, but law vs. chaos feels very real to me, while good and evil sometimes feel very abstract. It's easy to wonder if something is 'good' or 'evil,' with a lot of corner cases and gray areas, but any five-year old can tell you with strident authority when something isn't fair.
The_Mess 02-18-08, 03:50 PM	Yes, and not letting them have the entire box of cookies JUST ISN'T FAIR! :-)
Storm_Silverhand 02-18-08, 04:41 PM	Heya, I'm confused, when did the DM exist in the D&D universe? Only if you break the 4th Wall. :) Which is what people commonly thought that section of the Avatar series was doing. We could also take it that it is the sentience of the multiverse, which would make sense if you didn't break the 4th wall...
Charles Phipps 02-18-08, 04:59 PM	Don't kid yourself, Charlie. Good vs. evil didn't exist in your Eberron game either! Or don't you remember how long the PCs spent working for the bad guys because they were more likeable than the other bad guys. Ah yes, I recall that the player characters ended up working for The Aurrum against the Lord of Blades while all the while being unaware they weren't working for THE GOOD GUYSTm until the very end. I wanted to use that plot for the Zhents sometime. I'm ashamed to admit I stole it from Jennifer Garner's Alias. The flip side being some of his good guys are extremely dangerous, of course. *blinks innocently* Whoever could you mean! That's part of the problem, for me. "Good" and "evil" are tossed around with careless abandon, easy labels for anything the labeler cares to mark with his opinion. "Evil" is used to justify horrible acts against "the other" and has been for centuries. It doesn't work in the real world. It works in the fantasy world only by either implying free will is a joke or that evil is an actual force that nobody sane would ever align with, thus making evil equivalent to insanity. Even people who are completely selfish to the core are better off as neutral in D&D's alignment scheme. A lot of people want good, but a lot of people are willing to get their hands very dirty to achieve this and are willing to just settle for stability. Plus, what's good for the Orcs is very different from what's good for the people they're raiding. Elves vs. dwarves shows the limitations of the L/C alignment scale, though. Elves are socially rigid, devout, full of ceremonies and practitioners of mental arts of disciplines, but supposedly chaotic. Dwarves are known for drunken rages, war mongering, taking insult easily, but are supposedly paragons of law. Frankly, neither has been well served by alignment stereotypes. 4e seems to have realized this by splitting elves up into "Lawful elf stereotype Eladrin" and "Chaotic elf stereotype we'll just call elves". Dwarves... maybe they'll get split in 5e! To be fair, that dilenation already existed in the Realms. Gold Elves are the crazilly traditionalist types while the Moon Elves are the laid back free spirits....and both of them are more likely to go take a nap in a sunbeam than they are to undergo a six hour ceremony enthralling the virtues of tradition. So, Bahamut, whom you say is the Abrahamic god, serves Ao, whom I've always taken for Buddha in your handling. Message here? :-) My Ao's a fairly explicit Pantheist Incarnation of the universe with a shade of Brahma for good luck. Auppenser is Buddah. Lathander is Jesus/Vishnu/Mithras all rolled into one and the Triad is the Catholic Church. Tempus is Thor. Helm is Heimdale. Bane is an amalgamation of every awful religious tenant ever made. Oddly, somewhat similiar to Terry Goodkind's version of religion. Likewise, Calisham is Istanbul while Tethyr is France and Suzail is Elizabethian London. ;-) Well, worshiping a concept goes beyond alignment. Agree totally. Sune is one of the more genuinely caring deities in Charlie's pantheon and not at all a bimbo. It is a fun running gag that her Paladins write great poetry of epic proportions while teaching of her esoteric teachings while she paints her toe-nails though. (Thank you Terry Prachett)
Storm_Silverhand 02-18-08, 05:22 PM	Heya, When Babylon 5 did something similar with the Shadow/Vorlon war, I felt quite ripped off. I'd have sued the author, but my lawyer didn't buy the, "J. Michael Straczynski has a chip in my brain and is stealing all my good ideas by electrotelekinesis!" argument. Silly sceptic! He'll know how wrong he is JMS co-opts my epic about hyper-intelligent octopus declaring war on mankind! I liked Babylon 5, which is interesting since I can call Chaos/Shadows thinly veiled Evil, but I can't call Order/the Vorlons Good. I suppose the main reason I liked Babylon 5 is because of the characters, and because most of them did strive to do good in the universe... Which is what lead them to telling the Vorlons to go jump. Maybe it makes sense to me because of my upbringing, but law vs. chaos feels very real to me, while good and evil sometimes feel very abstract. Mostly, I don't like the D&D alignment system much at all, since it's rather inflexible and really needs part-grades... or just abandoned. I think I may like 4e better, but we'll see. Frankly, I just can't see anyone, ever, self-identifying as evil as it's defined in most game worlds. Sure, it works for demons and devils and things that are naturally evil, but I just can't see a human cultist saying, "I'm evil, ask me how!" People don't join cults to be evil, they join cults that match their definition of "good". Are the suicide bombers evil? Terrorists? Not to them! They're fighting for a greater ideal! It's easy to call them evil and sweep their position under the rug, of course. Alignments are a game mechanic. No one thinks of themselves in those terms, they just are. This is my main objection to a Planar System based on Alignment, and why I was happy to see the Great Tree introduced in 3rd Ed. But alas, it went nowhere. That's part of the problem, for me. "Good" and "evil" are tossed around with careless abandon, easy labels for anything the labeler cares to mark with his opinion. "Evil" is used to justify horrible acts against "the other" and has been for centuries. It doesn't work in the real world. It works in the fantasy world only by either implying free will is a joke or that evil is an actual force that nobody sane would ever align with, thus making evil equivalent to insanity. Even people who are completely selfish to the core are better off as neutral in D&D's alignment scheme. People like to label things, but just because they stick a label on something doesn't mean that something is the label. Evil isn't used to justify anything, Good usually is... People want to think of themselves as good, and will warp the definition to suit themselves. But people don't like to think of themselves as evil (bad yes, truly evil, no), which is why I say that in DnD no character thinks of themselves in terms of their alignment. That is a game mechanic, a guide to be used for role playing, and nothing more. Elves vs. dwarves shows the limitations of the L/C alignment scale, though. Elves are socially rigid, devout, full of ceremonies and practitioners of mental arts of disciplines, but supposedly chaotic. Dwarves are known for drunken rages, war mongering, taking insult easily, but are supposedly paragons of law. Frankly, neither has been well served by alignment stereotypes. 4e seems to have realized this by splitting elves up into "Lawful elf stereotype Eladrin" and "Chaotic elf stereotype we'll just call elves". Dwarves... maybe they'll get split in 5e! Not even the developers can agree. I've always thought Elves should have a racial alignment of NG, and thinking of it, that probably applies to Dwarves as well. (Just look, they changed Drow from CE in 2nd Ed to NE in 3rd Ed.) You remember, don't you? He gave Hank the bow and Presto the hat... LOL! Charlie can correct me if I'm wrong here, but in 616-space, Chosen can have their own small cults and even provide divine energy (spells) to a very small pool of followers. Scyulla would, presumably, be one of Fzoul's. That's an interesting idea. Hmm... I can just see that happening... Let's put it this way, deities aren't bound by their alignment when taking domains. If they were, all nature gods would be true neutral. I guarantee, nature itself is doesn't care about alignments. While most nature gods are neutral in some respect, most of them aren't true neutral. Red Knight might be the lawful neutral goddess of planning and strategy, but that doesn't mean a chaotic evil goblin king can't worship her and make detailed plans for carrying out his aims. Sune being chaotic good doesn't mean lawfuls can't, uh... engage in the ceremony of her worship... they just have to be boring about it. :-) I wasn't aware that love and romance were censored words on this board! :P I mean, I can talk about Sharessan sexual ceremonies, so why would love and romance be censored? Oh look, they're not! :rolleyes: Forgive the sarcasm, but in the Realms Sune is the goddess of love and romance, and if any deity is the deity of sexual acts, it is Sharess. I wish people would get that in their heads because then I'd spend less time correcting them. :D :) ;) Courtly love is an ill-fit for Sune's chaotic nature. It is the embodiment of subsuming chaos and forcing even love to play by the rules. Wee Jas will be using this as one of her inroads and portfolio claims as she moves into Faerūn. Sune won't like having her corps of paladins taken away, so there will be some conflict... I can't see Wee Jas being very popular with Sunite paladins... Wee Jas is LN with Evil tendencies, which would put off a lot of paladins, IMHO... That's probably because Paladins, to my mind, are more Good than Lawful, or should be. They can loose their paladinhood due to willful acts of evil, but not wilful acts of Chaos, only acts that violate their code of conduct... Now it's not beyond the bounds of reason that a paladin might be able to commit a chaotic act without violating their code of conduct... A paladin's code of conduct should very much be dependent on the deity they follow, and not the general concept of Lawful Good - especially in the Forgotten Realms, where Paladins, like all divine spell casting classes, are required to have a deity, and cannot gain powers from worshiping a concept or idea (unless it's a god masquerading as the concept/idea). Now if they'd done "Paladins" right from the start, Paladins of Sune would be Chaotic Good... Edit: If I recall correctly, Wee Jas is the goddess of Vanity (among other things), but does not explicitly have Love in her portfolio.
Charles Phipps 02-18-08, 05:25 PM	Eh, I doubt it. One of my major contributions to the world of Ortho (Planewalker forums) is that the Abyssal Lord Alzrius had a horde of LE Hobgoblin mercenaries from Acheron. Why? Because he's smart enough to know LE types make better soldiers than CE ones. Sune loves her tightly wound Paladins, so much fun to play with!
The_Mess 02-18-08, 08:11 PM	I liked Babylon 5, which is interesting since I can call Chaos/Shadows thinly veiled Evil, but I can't call Order/the Vorlons Good. I suppose the main reason I liked Babylon 5 is because of the characters, and because most of them did strive to do good in the universe... Which is what lead them to telling the Vorlons to go jump. Which is, of course, always the correct response to the authoritarians. And the chaos mongers as well, but they rarely have the power necessary to be a threat. Alignments are a game mechanic. No one thinks of themselves in those terms, they just are. This is my main objection to a Planar System based on Alignment, and why I was happy to see the Great Tree introduced in 3rd Ed. But alas, it went nowhere. But mechanics have to represent real world stuff. If it was a RP aid, that would be fine, I'd ignore it be done with it! But as soon as you introduce anything that plays off it, even from somthing as seemingly innocuous as Detect Evil, things get complicated. It makes evil something real, something you can detect. It should, logically, change all of society. Why bother having a legal system? Get your paladin to walk down the street, detecting evil, and arrest people who are *actually fundamentally bad*. And, hey, do society a favor! Helm of Alignment Changing will fix those bad guys right up! (Did that ever get imported into 3e? I can't remember right off.) There are no moral dillemas because good and evil are objective facts that can be cross-checked and confirmed. Just get a cleric to cast Commune for you! But, of course, it never changes societies in any of these ways because there's not really a lot of drive to make D&D internally realistic or extrapolate such changes into social phenomena. (Eberron does a little of this.) So, I'm hoping 4e leaves checkable alignments for outsiders and lets mortal races be ambiguous and very, very human. People like to label things, but just because they stick a label on something doesn't mean that something is the label. Evil isn't used to justify anything, Good usually is... Well, it's really the same thing. "They are EVIL" justifies actions against "them" and has for centuries. I could bring up literally hundreds of examples from recent history without trying hard, but I think that's on the List of Topics Thou Shalt Not Touch. People want to think of themselves as good, and will warp the definition to suit themselves. Absolutely true. Sadly so. But, then, they can't cast Detect good and check. Imagine the fundamentalist hate-monger who could check, "OH MY GOD, I'M EVIL!" But people don't like to think of themselves as evil (bad yes, truly evil, no), which is why I say that in DnD no character thinks of themselves in terms of their alignment. That is a game mechanic, a guide to be used for role playing, and nothing more. I wish. And, certainly the way we play it, the gray areas predominate, but this means that several other game mechanics, from aligned planes to Detect {alignment} lose their umph or utility. That's a modification of the game. Not even the developers can agree. I've always thought Elves should have a racial alignment of NG, and thinking of it, that probably applies to Dwarves as well. (Just look, they changed Drow from CE in 2nd Ed to NE in 3rd Ed.) I'd make elves true neutral, dwarves NG with lawful tendencies, and humans true neutral. Halflings I see as weakly CN. I wasn't aware that love and romance were censored words on this board! :P I mean, I can talk about Sharessan sexual ceremonies, so why would love and romance be censored? Oh look, they're not! :rolleyes: Point humbly taken. Forgive the sarcasm,... I would be the world's biggest hypocrite to not forgive your sarcasm! I can't see Wee Jas being very popular with Sunite paladins... Wee Jas is LN with Evil tendencies, which would put off a lot of paladins, IMHO... It's a power play. I read somewhere (or am making things up and then forgetting about it), that Sune needed dispensation (from whom? Ao?) to have Paladins as a Chaotic goddess (yet more alignments being solid mechanics, not game aids). Wee Jas will challenge that, with no particular expectation that they'll be happy with her, only that it will annoy her rival. That's probably because Paladins, to my mind, are more Good than Lawful, or should be. That's why they can Detect Evil but can't Detect Chaos, a pattern consistent throughout the "variant alignment paladins" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVaria ntsFreedomSlaughterAndTyranny) from Unearthed Arcana. Interestingly, they don't continue that pattern for the Incarnum Paladin Knock-off, the Soulborn, who can smite and/or detect either opposed alignment. Now if they'd done "Paladins" right from the start, Paladins of Sune would be Chaotic Good... Absolutely! Edit: If I recall correctly, Wee Jas is the goddess of Vanity (among other things), but does not explicitly have Love in her portfolio. It's not on her portfolio directly, but it is brought out in other text about her, and a couple paragraphs in her Dragon article discuss that aspect of her. She is, essentially, the god of love as a social construct, marriage (especially arranged), etc. I liked how that felt for her, so I'm incorporating it.
Charles Phipps 02-19-08, 12:29 AM	FYI, people. For those interested how I'm going to move the Great Wheel to 4E, I've got a transition adventure I'm working on at the Planewalker boards. http://www.planewalker.com/forums/viewThread.php?intPostID=43563 Of course, the adventure is only in its initial stages but the final result will be that.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-19-08, 01:32 AM	In Powers of Faerun its mentionsed that a fragment of Moander is searching for the divine power neccessary to return himself to power. Is there a chance of Moander resurrecting in your game? Have you changed the Twisted Rune in your FR?
Charles Phipps 02-19-08, 01:37 AM	No, Moander was the first "big enemy" in our campaigns. Ironically, that fragment searching for power was actually a major plot point in our games and the Pcs managed to finish him off. And the Twisted Rune have a role in the game but I do my best to let my players never know of it ;-)
Charles Phipps 02-19-08, 02:18 AM	Fey'ri Chaotic Evil Secret Society The Fey'ri play an important role on Faerun-616 as they are the chief agents of the Diabolic and Infernal on Faerun. While a smattering of demonic and diabolic cults exist on the Fair Continent, it is through the Fey'ri that their influence has spread the most. Physical Description: The vast majority of Fey'ri are Tiefling versions of Elves, Sprites, Pixies, Leprechauns, Satyrs, Nyphs, and other Fey bloodlines. They are occasionally served by diabolic blooded Goblins or Gnomes as well, though these are accorded the respect that's no better than a slave. The Demonic taint rests in almost all of the Fey'ri but the elves of the lineage are almost uniformly beautiful to look upon despite their darker natures. They may have flaming eyes, leather wings, tails, forked tongues, or horns but they hold the fear and awe of all who look upon them. Personality: The majority of Fey'ri tend to behave in much the same way as Fairy Tales tell the Fey act, the absolute worst and bloodiest of the tales. The Fey'ri are responsible for much of the legends of mortals having their eyes put out or other secretive acts with atrocity being their primary purpose. Quite a few Fey'ri have such fun activities as hunting humans for sport as hobbies. History and Activities: The Fey'ri's story is largely identical to that of canon but House Dlardrageth's destruction at the hands of the Elves of Evermeet is merely the annihilation of the most visibly prominent and famous of the Fey'ri Houses. Indeed, the death of Sarya Dlardrageth was not the end of House Dlardrageth for many of her more distant kin had seen that battling the Elves of Evermeet was no particular way to continue survival. The Elves of Evermeet believe the Fey'ri to be annihilated and this is exactly how much of them prefer it. Suffice to say, the Fey'ri primarilly dot the landscape of Faerun using expansive versions of extradimensional holdings that are their fortresses (a Fey'ri version of Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion) with some leading to Plane of Shadow portals that they inhabit. They frequently lure Elves and other fey into their homes to seduce or outright hold as breeding stock. In most cases, the Fey'ri's mastery of illusions and their willingness to mate with summoned demons plus the difficulty of forcing a subject to hold a child they don't want (even under charm) means that they rarely have to do so. The Fey'ri are primarilly interested in expanding their numbers while bringing various torments down upon the Elven People. The Fey'ri have no innate love of nature and their presence is frequently behind plagues, blights, and fey paid for mercenaries to help clean out forests to be cut to the ground. The Fey'ri are a rather crafty bunch and rarely attack directly, with the exception of Saryra's ill-concieved scheme to build her own kingdom. The Fey'ri have no concept of honor or courage, so they have little desire to expose themselves to needless danger. One can always expect a Fey'ri beserker to tear one's opponent apart when they're least able to fight back. The Fey'ri, bizarrely, have more influence in human kingdoms than the majority of elves do. This is due to the fact that the Fey'ri are not above interbreeding with humans in order to pass along their demonically tainted blood amongst them. Such Tieflings born are little more than slaves of the Fey'ri but often wield vast power over even lesser beings (i.e. humans). Many noble houses, most specifically House Cormaeril of Cormyr, have been thoroughly corrupted to fiend worship by the evil group. Ultimately, The Fey'ri are a pestillance on faerun and one that doesn't appear to be going away any time soon. Leadership: Sarya Dlardrageth has left the power of the Fey'ri under a half-dozen minor self-proclaimed High Kings and Queens spread throughout Faerun. The most prominent being Morwen Dlardrageth (CE Fey'ri F Sorcerer 14) whom is Sarya's misbegotten niece. In truth, all the Fey'ri are but pawns to Malkizid and his master Gra'azt whom use them as catspaws with nearly all of its leadership owing either Fiend a "secret" bargain.
Storm_Silverhand 02-19-08, 05:16 PM	Heya, Which is, of course, always the correct response to the authoritarians. And the chaos mongers as well, but they rarely have the power necessary to be a threat. *nods* Yep. :) So, I'm hoping 4e leaves checkable alignments for outsiders and lets mortal races be ambiguous and very, very human. Well, the vast majority of people and creatures will be "Unaligned" in 4th Edition. Which leads me to believe that checkable alignments will still be in because anything with an alignment will be special cases. But good point about being able to check alignment. I tend to think of those spells as being in the game for the players convenience, and you can't always rely on the results of such spells to give you an indication of what an evil person or monster might do. Alignment is not and never has been a straight jacket, sometimes people and monsters do act against their alignment, and even change them, and as such anything that detects alignment is fairly unreliable. (There have always been spells and magical items can change alignments, Sanctify the Wicked is one, the Helm of Opposite Alignment (which I don't think made it to 3rd Ed) is another.) Well, it's really the same thing. "They are EVIL" justifies actions against "them" and has for centuries. I could bring up literally hundreds of examples from recent history without trying hard, but I think that's on the List of Topics Thou Shalt Not Touch. Nah, "They are EVIL" is the flip side of "We are GOOD". Which is using Good to justify their position ("We are good, so therefore they are evil, lets tromp them!"). Absolutely true. Sadly so. But, then, they can't cast Detect good and check. Imagine the fundamentalist hate-monger who could check, "OH MY GOD, I'M EVIL!" They'd be more likely to go "Evil Religious Entity has tricked me!" ;) I wish. And, certainly the way we play it, the gray areas predominate, but this means that several other game mechanics, from aligned planes to Detect {alignment} lose their umph or utility. That's a modification of the game. Not really. There have always been ways to change alignment within the game - which means that detect and protection from alignment spells already have a level of unreliability to them. The NPC you encountered last month who was CE, may now be CN and on their way to CG... And that stuffy paladin? Well she's an ex-paladin now, LN. Then there are spells and abilities to fool alignment detection and protection effects... Like a Rogue's Use Magic Device. I'd make elves true neutral, dwarves NG with lawful tendencies, and humans true neutral. Halflings I see as weakly CN. I think the vast majority of Elves are actually Good aligned - we just don't get to see that very often. It's a power play. I read somewhere (or am making things up and then forgetting about it), that Sune needed dispensation (from whom? Ao?) to have Paladins as a Chaotic goddess (yet more alignments being solid mechanics, not game aids). Wee Jas will challenge that, with no particular expectation that they'll be happy with her, only that it will annoy her rival. I'm pretty sure you made that up. :) I don't think I've ever read something like that anywhere, but the post to which I am replying. :D I'm sure someone'll correct me if I'm wrong (preferably with the actual reference, so I can look for myself). It's not on her portfolio directly, but it is brought out in other text about her, and a couple paragraphs in her Dragon article discuss that aspect of her. She is, essentially, the god of love as a social construct, marriage (especially arranged), etc. I liked how that felt for her, so I'm incorporating it. Definitely in the text of stuff I've read about Wee Jas, I'll grant you... But if it's not in her portfolio, it's not anything she has control over... And if you take her the way you said there, there's room for both her and Sune without overlap. Sune is not a deity of marriage at all, but Love and Passion and Beauty. Love can be expressed outside of the bonds of matrimony, and no where does it say that Sune's dominance over Love is restricted only to romantic love... If it were, she'd be far less powerful, IMHO. (Attitudes towards marriage are very different in the Realms, so I don't think marriage would give Wee Jas much of a foothold.)
Charles Phipps 02-19-08, 05:22 PM	(Attitudes towards marriage are very different in the Realms, so I don't think marriage would give Wee Jas much of a foothold.) Actually, marriage is just as important in the Realms as it is in our world, S_SH. It's just that its purely an economic and inheritance issue. Also, in the Realms, they will kill men and women for screwing it up arguably faster than they will in the real world. Ed's been painfully clear about the importance of legitimate inheritance in Cormyr to the point of horrible murder and torture of Kings who recognize bastards.
GothicDan 02-19-08, 05:26 PM	Note of course that that's Cormyr. Ed's made it clear how fluid marriage is elsewise, and how the definitions of marriage can vary very far from our modern Western conceptions of it. :)
Charles Phipps 02-19-08, 05:43 PM	Take note, that's Cormyr's ROYALTY. However, I have no doubt that the issue of Royalty and succession are every bit as nasty amongst Waterdeep's nobility as well. Indeed, with the fact you can confirm bastardry or truth with divination in all likelihood, I imagine people are MORE concerned in other areas. Do I believe the realms are sexually free and more liberal than us in the modern USA/Europe? Absolutely. Do I believe that people in the Realms become outright lunatics where money, title, and land is concerned? You bet.
GothicDan 02-19-08, 05:46 PM	I'm just repeating what Ed's said, mind you. :) For non-noble births, inheritance and the like really seems to play little role in marriages, and most marriages don't have anything in the way of formal contracts or the like - marriage and economy aren't nearly as tied together as they are in modern Western society. I'm sure Old Sage could provide quotes if necessary. But... Yeah, among the nobles and such, I think that things get sticky - but I would say that's more insanity for NUPTIAL agreements than marriages themselves.
Charles Phipps 02-19-08, 05:57 PM	Well I still think everything is sealed by birth and blood by the Realms. Everything is uncivilized. ;-) And what you describe is.... A. Not that far from what I said. B. Pretty much how it was in the RL world too.
Scathlock 02-19-08, 06:14 PM	Charlie will remember a superhero campaign I ran where Law and Chaos were fundamental, deity-level entities, while good and evil were not. Essentially the result of the manifested psychic potential of a race that believed "good" existed only as a balance between opposing evil forces, one of whom wanted to reduce the universe to a single crystalline moment of perfect clarity, while the other wanted to depose all laws, including the laws of physics and reduce the universe to random potential. These forces then spawned war throughout the cosmos. When Babylon 5 did something similar with the Shadow/Vorlon war, I felt quite ripped off. I'd have sued the author, but my lawyer didn't buy the, "J. Michael Straczynski has a chip in my brain and is stealing all my good ideas by electrotelekinesis!" argument. Silly sceptic! He'll know how wrong he is JMS co-opts my epic about hyper-intelligent octopus declaring war on mankind! Hmmm, I always thought Straczynski ripped that idea off Moorcock's Eternal Champion multiverse: Law and Chaos as the ultimate foes which disguise themselves as good and evil respectively (the part Warhammer ripped off without understanding the message of the stories) and the heroes as playthings of the immortals and ultimately servants of the more humane Balance....
Scathlock 02-19-08, 06:28 PM	Alignments are a game mechanic. No one thinks of themselves in those terms, they just are. This is my main objection to a Planar System based on Alignment, and why I was happy to see the Great Tree introduced in 3rd Ed. But alas, it went nowhere. I totally agree that alignment is a game mechanic (that can be replaced with other game mechanics or kicked out without replacement). Though it is obviously true that the concept of the Great Wheel was based on Alignment, as a somewhat strange person who plays Planescape without D&D and without Alignment I want to point out that the planes are no longer defined by alignment (only) but can be portrayed quite well without the mechanic. I never liked the tree, but since I found it quite easy to convert parts of it I wanted back to the Wheel, it never bothered me.... The new mess does.
Charles Phipps 02-19-08, 06:35 PM	My version is a bit more cerebral. Law, Order, Good, and Evil are all concrete forces in the universe. They have their own Elemental Material Planes actually where they're embodied. Good=The Positive Material Plane, Evil=The Negative Material Plane, Chaos=The Ethereal Plane, and the Astral Plane is the Plane of Law. [DM's Note: Yes, I'm aware that's arbitrary for the Astral and Ethereal] However, humans have taken these concepts and made them something more which is what the Outer Planes are. The irony is that, human beings and other races may strive for all these various concepts, but they ultimately have to choose for themselves which is best. Mount Celestia is the Realm of Perfect Good, at least as some people define it, but it's Hell to other people. Even Balance doesn't work because flat out, is it REALLY better that certain people get to get away with crap because it's for the absolute importance of being able to choose to be a :censored:? That's actually a decision my games state that no one in the universe can make for you. There's a constant struggle between these forces and its from hat conflict that the universe is shaped. It's up to you and your character to say what's really a fulfilling life. Paladins aren't WRONG to crusade for LG and LG only. Ditto the Harpers who hold Freedom and Good is THE point. But never the twain shall meet.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-19-08, 08:33 PM	What is the state of the Empire of Shade and Thay? Have you included the events in Unclean?
The_Mess 02-19-08, 09:01 PM	But good point about being able to check alignment. I tend to think of those spells as being in the game for the players convenience, and you can't always rely on the results of such spells to give you an indication of what an evil person or monster might do. True. But would you like to live next door to someone you could confirm was evil? : - ) Alignment is not and never has been a straight jacket, sometimes people and monsters do act against their alignment, and even change them, and as such anything that detects alignment is fairly unreliable. I wouldn't say unreliable. Rather, it tells you something that isn't telling you that much in a specific situation. Alignments don't change often, only after a life-changing event. Just because you're in a bad mood and acting snippy for a day, doesn't make you not Lawful Good, it just means someone cut you off in traffic. :-) Nah, "They are EVIL" is the flip side of "We are GOOD". Which is using Good to justify their position ("We are good, so therefore they are evil, lets tromp them!"). Like I said, they're close to the same thing. But "We're good" only justifies the attack if they're evil. "We're good and so are they" won't cut it. You need "They're evil!" They'd be more likely to go "Evil Religious Entity has tricked me!" ;) Well, yes, the mere fact that you can see for a fact that you are evil wouldn't convince some people. Apropos of nothing: "Your evil is my good. I am Sutekh the destroyer. Where I tread, I leave nothing but dust and darkness. I find that good!" - Sutekh, Doctor Who: The Pyramids of Mars Not really. There have always been ways to change alignment within the game - which means that detect and protection from alignment spells already have a level of unreliability to them. But paladins detect alignment at will and most of those methods are too expensive for the general public. Evil should be practically under seige in any LG territory. The NPC you encountered last month who was CE, may now be CN and on their way to CG... And that stuffy paladin? Well she's an ex-paladin now, LN. If that happened often, there wouldn't be any monks of paladins above 1st level. :-) I'm pretty sure you made that up. :) Oh, probably! Definitely in the text of stuff I've read about Wee Jas, I'll grant you... But if it's not in her portfolio, it's not anything she has control over... She doesn't have a FR portfolio... yet. She'll be acting to claim one. And if you take her the way you said there, there's room for both her and Sune without overlap. Yes. There is room. That doesn't mean they will. (Attitudes towards marriage are very different in the Realms, so I don't think marriage would give Wee Jas much of a foothold.) A foothold she can expand on. She'll take take her footholds and expand them. I never liked the tree, but since I found it quite easy to convert parts of it I wanted back to the Wheel, it never bothered me.... The new mess does. I... bother you? What did I do! I'M SORRY! *sniff* :-)
Charles Phipps 02-19-08, 09:03 PM	Please, The_Mess, should note this includes information that he as a player is not yet privy to. The Empire of Netheril The Empire of Netheril in Faerun-616 is slightly different from the Shade one that inhabits the mainstream universe. Our PCs, the heroic beings that they are, altered the events of Return of the Archwizards slightly as they managed to retrieve the Heart of Karsus and successfully used the object in question to bring forth the Selune worshiping city of Opus. The two states could not be more troublesome and immediately set to war upon one another. Thus, in Universe-616, the Shade threat was effectively defeated before it even began. The events of the Spell Plague, the destruction of Halruaa, and the sudden rise to prominence of Selune has resulted in an end to the two states bickering. The Netherse managed to draw up an uneasy truce with the casting down of theocrats in both cities as the wizards made a mutual pledge towards magic over the gods. The Halruaa refugees have since been accepted by both sides and set up their own cities that are thriving quite nicely post the Spell Plague. The Empire of Netheril is effectively the Neo-State of Halruaa for the most part as the end of both the Weave and Shadow Weave has resulted in all of the magicians having to discover their own new forms of magic. Almost the entire population of the land can cast some degree of the new magic but the Archwizards, including the immortal Shades, are much more sensibly leveled at this point. Most of the Anauroch lands are still desert but they've erected something like fourteen cities at this point with the two hearts of the land controlled by Opus and Shade. Neither side acknowledging the other having any real dominion over the other while all the lesser cities offering them dominion. Nevertheless, there is commerce and plenty of plots by both the major religions to burn the other to the ground. Oddly; in this environment has cults to Azuth, Bane, Cyric, Kelemvor, Oghma, Wee Jas, and Velsharoon flourished. My basic idea was to establish that Netheril was not necessarilly a place of villainy and a perfectly adequate location for PCs to come from. It also provides much of the fun of lost Halruaa without any of the loss. Plus, it's also a lot more dangerous a realm than Halruaa as it's ambitions are tremendous.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-19-08, 09:47 PM	Please, The_Mess, should note this includes information that he as a player is not yet privy to. The Empire of Netheril The Empire of Netheril in Faerun-616 is slightly different from the Shade one that inhabits the mainstream universe. Our PCs, the heroic beings that they are, altered the events of Return of the Archwizards slightly as they managed to retrieve the Heart of Karsus and successfully used the object in question to bring forth the Selune worshiping city of Opus. The two states could not be more troublesome and immediately set to war upon one another. Thus, in Universe-616, the Shade threat was effectively defeated before it even began. The events of the Spell Plague, the destruction of Halruaa, and the sudden rise to prominence of Selune has resulted in an end to the two states bickering. The Netherse managed to draw up an uneasy truce with the casting down of theocrats in both cities as the wizards made a mutual pledge towards magic over the gods. The Halruaa refugees have since been accepted by both sides and set up their own cities that are thriving quite nicely post the Spell Plague. The Empire of Netheril is effectively the Neo-State of Halruaa for the most part as the end of both the Weave and Shadow Weave has resulted in all of the magicians having to discover their own new forms of magic. Almost the entire population of the land can cast some degree of the new magic but the Archwizards, including the immortal Shades, are much more sensibly leveled at this point. Most of the Anauroch lands are still desert but they've erected something like fourteen cities at this point with the two hearts of the land controlled by Opus and Shade. Neither side acknowledging the other having any real dominion over the other while all the lesser cities offering them dominion. Nevertheless, there is commerce and plenty of plots by both the major religions to burn the other to the ground. Oddly; in this environment has cults to Azuth, Bane, Cyric, Kelemvor, Oghma, Wee Jas, and Velsharoon flourished. My basic idea was to establish that Netheril was not necessarilly a place of villainy and a perfectly adequate location for PCs to come from. It also provides much of the fun of lost Halruaa without any of the loss. Plus, it's also a lot more dangerous a realm than Halruaa as it's ambitions are tremendous. I really like this. In canon I just dont see the use for the City of Shade, I mean what would the PCs do, invade it? Are the Malaugryms still their enemies? What is their current agenda, as well as what remain of the phaereim (spelling?).
Charles Phipps 02-19-08, 09:55 PM	I really like this. In canon I just dont see the use for the City of Shade, I mean what would the PCs do, invade it? Are the Malaugryms still their enemies? What is their current agenda, as well as what remain of the phaereim (spelling?). 1. Well, in this case, the PCs brought their enemies back. Now, Netheril is a powerful magical Empire that (ironically) is at the mercy of the Zhentariam for much of its trading. 2. The Malaugrym have mostly immigrated to Abeir-Toril now and are still carrying out their plots to start war after war to eventually conquer Faerun for themselves. Oddly, they're in control of Sembia rather than the Shades in my game (who I felt were overexposed). 3. The Shades are continuing to rebuild Netheril at this point while working to stockpile magic. Most likely, they'll make a push West at some point where they'll be a big Empire of Shade vs. Lord's Alliance war. At some point, they may also attempt to seize control over Opus and the whole of Netheril. 4. The Phaerimm were mostly exterminated in the stupidly futile war with Everveska and the subsequent vengeance of Shade. They're back to their original status as a nearly-extinct but hyper-powerful collection of 18th and 20th level monsters. They'd love to wipe out Netheril but the war has more or less been won by the Mages.
Charles Phipps 02-19-08, 10:17 PM	Thay-616 Effectively, the Spell Plague resulted in the deaths of a quarter of Thay's magicians as a whole. Then the sudden massive earthquakes and rising mountains slew another half of the populous as a whole. All of the Red Wizard Enclaves on Faerun were then abandoned as the magicians were told to return or they were taken over by the magic-users who saw a better alternative in foreign lands than returning home to their devastated home. What's happened the past century has been largely kept silent as the Red Wizards had all their borders sealed up by the cataclysmic land changes while killing any who dared trespass on their lands. Many hoped, erroneously, that the threat of the Red Wizards of Thay had been eliminated by the events of the Spell Plague. They, unfortunately, were proven wrong when Thay once more started sending out envoys. Thay is now a much more secretive realm than it ever was before. In order to cross into the Realm, you require a Red Wizard's permission and the areas you are to go to are restricted with commerce handled in special regions devoted for foreign traffic. Strangely, non-humans are no longer allowed in Thay whatsoever with any that are found being immediately clapped in irons or enslaved. The Red Wizards are mostly interested in recruiting new mages to their service more than anything else, post-Spell Plague. They've SOMEWHAT abandoned their traditional Mulan superiority beliefs, leaving the top-caste open only to pure blooded Mulan, but are interested in recruiting any full human blooded individuals with magical potential. Most are unaware they are anything but agents for the greater Red Wizard's ambition and those that are often find themselves seeking better masters. The Red Wizards have even begun recruiting in Netheril where they've become a popular "Scarlet Brotherhood" amongst the most racist and hateful of the populous. The Thayans have never been more sinister or influential, curiously, than now. They have mastered subtlety and politics to a level that makes them as feared as their magic. The nation of Aglarond and Rashemmi briefly sent an army to deal with the monstrous Thayans when they re-opened their doors but found the tables had turned with it destroyed utterly by all the corpses in the nation rising to its defense. It is clear now that Thay could conquer both lands quite easilly, the question is why they no longer care to. Geography: Mostly, Thay is a blasted magical wasteland filled with a series of pocket mountain kingdoms that have barely managed to carve out paths between one another. Countless undead and monstrous creatures roam about the lands with most Thayan cities controlled by families of magic users that only rarely gather together under the control of the Zulkirs at the reconstructed capital. The capital is an exception to this rule and it is a dark and decadent place that is filled with a populous devoted to the wishes of its wizarding overclass. The people are brainwashed constantly into singing the praises of Ssass Tam and the Red Wizards as a whole, worse they've actually come to believe it. Economy: As a note, the Thayans in Universe-616 never employed "Thaymart" because they were too isolationalistic and hated. This has not changed post the Spell Plague, due to the Zhentariam fulfilling most of their merchant needs. However, agents of Thay are now going forth disguised as merchants and amongst the peoples of the populous to sunbert and destroy other nations in a very 'Red Menace' style series of plots and counter-plots. The Thayans are mostly a self-sufficient slave holding state that relies primarilly on tribute from lesser nations and raiding parties to serve its needs when breeding drops off. Government: Szass Tam has retired from his position as the Zulkir of Necromancy and instead taken the title of Zulkir of Zulkirs or Grand Zulkir. The Lich spends all of his days in his Castle of Bones with devilish experiments and in communion with various foul gods and entities. It is said Szass Tam has already become a Demilich or that he's gone on to replace Larloch or that he's become a member of the Twisted Rune as various theories go. A Theruge of Velsharoon, Kulthax, currently holds the title of Zulkir of Necromancy with Szass Tam apparently not caring about it. Almost all actual ruling is handled by the Zulkir Council as backstabbing is fairly minimal thanks to the omnipresent siege mentality that holds the Red Wizards together. In truth, they are all merely strawmen for the Grand Zulkir and solely work to enforce the Thayans will abroad since he can remove them at any time he wishes. The rest of Thay is controlled by a feudalistic set of Red Wizard overlords that dominate over their quasi-independent cities and vast slave holdings. All of the Thayans hate and fear the Zulkirs above them but must send their children to the magical academies under their control or be effectively ostracized from Thayan power. A magical secret police called the Stoss'terrum travels through Thayan lands and punishes those who disobey the doctrine of the Red Wizards. Religion: The worship of Kossuth has taken a dramatic downturn post the Spell Plague. Less than half of the Thayan people worship the Fire God and the Cult of Set composes approximately a third of the worshipers in the land. While most Red Wizards are largely agnostic, quite a few set up shrines to Azuth and Bane if they do not worship one of those two gods. Asmodeus and other Archdevil worship is especially prevalent in Thay and arguably the highest concentration in the world thanks to the deals that are made across family lines. Relationship with other Races: I accent the racism of the Thayans for the most part and all of them genuinely consider other human beings to be little more than Mongrels at best while those without magic really are nothing more than slaves to be. Thayans have an even worse view of non-humans and treat them as little more than chattel. This doesn't prevent them from employing other mages but the true Mulan purebloods remain in dominion. Nevertheless, The Thayans employ a large non-human populous in dominion over their human slaves. They are very effective in controlling the humans and forcing a set of competition amongst them. The slaves will never be able to successfully revolt because the Thayans set the humans against the elves, the elves against the Orcs, and the Dwarves against the Orcs and Elves. The Thayans have been known to seperate families and educate children to horrible histories of their people that makes them view their homelands with utter disgust. Relationship with other Nations: Likewise, the Thayans are a frightening power throughout Faerun and their terrifying strength remains something that scares most beings to pieces. The fact that they wield their full power while the rest of the world has largely lost its magic has only made them viewed as even more dangerous than ever. The Thayans often send their agents forth to gather information and influence events to their liking but only a few ambitious Red Wizards actively seek to subvert other nations fully to their slavery. Nevertheless, world domination remains at the height of their goals. The Thayans are currently very friendly towards the Set dominated worship of Mulhorand and both nations have considerable interaction with one another. The Church of Set and the Red Wizards are privately scheming to unite their lands once more and overthrow the Sarrukh at their leisure. It is likely this will suceed and create the largest Empire in Faerun. The Thayans are also reasonably friendly with the forces of Zhentil Keep. The Black Network supplies Thay with most of the goods, information, and components that they cannot get on their own and are paid in magical supplies. The Thayans are aware the Zhentariam cannot be trusted and are rivals for world domination but the two have often collaborated on terribly damaging schemes against the rest of the world. The Thayans are capable of deploying their vast armies of horror to anywhere in Faerun thanks to their judicious portal use. This threat makes them one that any nation in the world would be well advised to take seriously and treat with a heavy hand. The Thayans currently hope to bring down the nation of Netheril as their only real rival after the Zhentariam.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-19-08, 10:18 PM	1. Well, in this case, the PCs brought their enemies back. Now, Netheril is a powerful magical Empire that (ironically) is at the mercy of the Zhentariam for much of its trading. 2. The Malaugrym have mostly immigrated to Abeir-Toril now and are still carrying out their plots to start war after war to eventually conquer Faerun for themselves. Oddly, they're in control of Sembia rather than the Shades in my game (who I felt were overexposed). 3. The Shades are continuing to rebuild Netheril at this point while working to stockpile magic. Most likely, they'll make a push West at some point where they'll be a big Empire of Shade vs. Lord's Alliance war. At some point, they may also attempt to seize control over Opus and the whole of Netheril. 4. The Phaerimm were mostly exterminated in the stupidly futile war with Everveska and the subsequent vengeance of Shade. They're back to their original status as a nearly-extinct but hyper-powerful collection of 18th and 20th level monsters. They'd love to wipe out Netheril but the war has more or less been won by the Mages. Is Thay still a stable nation or has it been overrun by the undead armies in the new book series.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-19-08, 10:18 PM	My bad we posted at around the same time.
Charles Phipps 02-19-08, 10:22 PM	Is Thay still a stable nation or has it been overrun by the undead armies in the new book series. Thay was forced to band together for the first time ever survival in the wake of the Spell Plague, Undead attacks, and the gigantic tectonic shift that destroyed much of their nation. About every single weakling and Thayan who was unable to work together more or less ended up dead. The remaining wizards are still treacherous and evil but bound together against the rest of the world.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-19-08, 10:24 PM	Thay Effectively, the Spell Plague resulted in the deaths of a quarter of Thay's magicians as a whole. Then the sudden massive earthquakes and rising mountains slew another half of the populous as a whole. All of the Red Wizard Enclaves on Faerun were then abandoned as the magicians were told to return or they were taken over by the magic-users who saw a better alternative in foreign lands than returning home to their devastated home. What's happened the past century has been largely kept silent as the Red Wizards had all their borders sealed up by the cataclysmic land changes while killing any who dared trespass on their lands. Many hoped, erroneously, that the threat of the Red Wizards of Thay had been eliminated by the events of the Spell Plague. They, unfortunately, were proven wrong when Thay once more started sending out envoys. Thay is now a much more secretive realm than it ever was before. In order to cross into the Realm, you require a Red Wizard's permission and the areas you are to go to are restricted with commerce handled in special regions devoted for foreign traffic. Strangely, nonhumans are no longer allowed in Thay whatsoever with any that are found being immediately clapped in irons or enslaved. Mostly, Thay is a blasted magical wasteland filled with a series of pocket mountain kingdoms that have barely managed to carve out paths between one another. Countless undead and monstrous creatures roam about the lands with most Thayan cities controlled by families of magic users that only rarely gather together under the control of the Zulkirs at the reconstructed capital. Szass Tam has retired from his position as the Zulkir of Necromancy and instead taken the title of Zulkir of Zulkirs or Grand Zulkir. The Lich spends all of his days in his Castle of Bones with devilish experiments and in communion with various foul gods and entities. It is said Szass Tam has already become a Demilich or that he's gone on to replace Larloch or that he's become a member of the Twisted Rune as various theories go. A Theruge of Velsharoon currently holds the title of Zulkir of Necromancy with Szass Tam apparently not caring about it. Almost all actual ruling is handled by the Zulkir Council as backstabbing is fairly minimal thanks to the omnipresent siege mentality that holds the Red Wizards together. The Red Wizards are mostly interested in recruiting new mages to their service more than anything else, post-Spell Plague. They've SOMEWHAT abandoned their traditional Mulan superiority beliefs, leaving the top-caste open only to pure blooded Mulan, but are interested in recruiting any full human blooded individuals with magical potential. The Red Wizards have even begun recruiting in Netheril where they've become a popular "Scarlet Brotherhood" amongst the most racist and hateful of the populous. The Thayans have never been more sinister or influential, curiously, than now. They have mastered subtlety and politics to a level that makes them as feared as their magic. The nation of Aglarond and Rashemmi briefly sent an army to deal with the monstrous Thayans when they re-opened their doors but found the tables had turned with it destroyed utterly by all the corpses in the nation rising to its defense. It is clear now that Thay could conquer both lands quite easilly, the question is why they no longer care to. Something happened to Larloch? What about the Sarrukh?
Charles Phipps 02-19-08, 10:28 PM	Something happened to Larloch? What about the Sarrukh? In Universe-616, Larloch is still a running gag. Specifically, he's a 42nd Level Wizard that has the power to conquer the whole of Abeir-Toril but instead chooses to read instead and experiment. I.e. He's a joke because he's completely harmless in my games. He was annoyed for the first time in millennium when Mystra died without an heir but he got over it after a few Volcanoes were created. The Sarrukh are a whole different story and require their own entry.
Vulpes 02-19-08, 11:33 PM	In Universe-616, Larloch is still a running gag. Specifically, he's a 42nd Level Wizard that has the power to conquer the whole of Abeir-Toril but instead chooses to read instead and experiment. I.e. He's a joke because he's completely harmless in my games. He was annoyed for the first time in millennium when Mystra died without an heir but he got over it after a few Volcanoes were created. The Sarrukh are a whole different story and require their own entry. Frankly, I've always thought it was just smart of Larloch not to want to rule the world. Far too many headaches, what with the administration and all, for no real rewards. What could he possibly get from ruling the world that he doesn't have now? Plus, far too many do-gooders constantly trying to unseat you, and inevitably one will succeed and then what? No, better to have a nice, isolated keep with scores of undead minions where you can putter about to your heart's content.
Charles Phipps 02-19-08, 11:53 PM	Yes, My Realms are rather drastically powered down compared to the regular Realms as well. Elminster, the ostenible "Greatest Wizard in Faerun" is only 20th level, rather than 29th with Khelben being 19th. Similiar level adjustments exist all round. Suffice to say, the Realms is lacking in heroes and Epic Level beings are very rare (Larloch and a few others being the notable exceptions). Thus, in the Forgotten Realms, the question of "Why doesn't Elminster kill Manshoon?" is answered with "Because he might die."
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-20-08, 02:34 AM	Yes, My Realms are rather drastically powered down compared to the regular Realms as well. Elminster, the ostenible "Greatest Wizard in Faerun" is only 20th level, rather than 29th with Khelben being 19th. Similiar level adjustments exist all round. Suffice to say, the Realms is lacking in heroes and Epic Level beings are very rare (Larloch and a few others being the notable exceptions). Thus, in the Forgotten Realms, the question of "Why doesn't Elminster kill Manshoon?" is answered with "Because he might die." Does it take the PCs in your game longer to level than in canon FR games? My reason for asking is that it sounds like your PCs have made some truly high level if not Epic accomplishments.
Charles Phipps 02-20-08, 03:02 AM	Quite a few adventures actually but very few of them are actually with the same group. The game has been going on, in-game for over a hundred years and probably about seven years Real Time with frequently playing multiple times a week. The two major groups are Pre and Post Spell Plague but all of it's canon in my realms. The Heroes of the Godswar (18th or so level at the end) * The Time of Troubles modules (i.e. involved in Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul's death) * The Keep on the Borderlands (an upper-level one with a Cult of Orcus and the assassination of King Gareth) * The Return of Opus * The House of Strahd (transplanted to Halruaa and having Castle Forlorn time shifting) * Dragons of Flame (changed to the Cult of the Dragon) * Dragons of Ice (changed to the Cult of the Dragon with Velsharoon Pre-Ascension as the mastermind) * The rescue of Sharess from Shar in Calisham. * The Slavers Series (changed to Luskan and the Knights of the Shield) * The destruction of Kalak, a Renegade Archmage of the Arcane Brotherhood and temporary "king" of Baldur's Gate. * The destruction of Moander's Last Avatar in Wa (The "Wa" series involved a redone Princess Mononoke and at least one Pendagalan encounter) * The destruction of Valance the Last Sarrukh Archwizard (later proven to be false) * Umbra (Dungeons Magazine 55#) * The Moonshae Sextet (More or less the entirety of the novels were condensed into a trilogy of adventures with the Heroes Fighting off Bhaal and Kazgaroth) * White Plume Mountain * Killing the Coin Master of the Cult of the Dragon and self-described King of Sembia (based heavilly on Prince John---worst PLAN ***EVER*** even though it worked by sending a PC in as a harem girl) Almost their direct offspring and grandchildren became.... The Knights of Shadowdale (13th or so level now) * The Secret of Spiderhaunt (introducing Conrad Morn---the Wannabe Lich) * The Haunted Halls of Eveningstar * Saving a Cormyr town from the Fey'ri's curse. * A failed attempt to stop Dag Zoreth stealing Shadowdale's treasury * Four from Cormyr (I've still yet to do the adventrue with the Dragon ruins) * The Castle of the Blind Sun (Dungeon 49#) * The destruction of Volumax * The rescue of a Unicorn from a Ghezereth in the Beastlands (a heavilly modified Well of Worlds adventure) * Elexe's Endeavor (Dungeon 53#---Here they save Lord Nasher's castle from Dag Zoreth and Conrad Morn) * Killing Balzathar the Bhaalspawn * The Fires of Dis (Planescape Adventure where the stakes are raised to saving the planet Nemausus through a magical ritual hosted by Bahamut, Torm, and Nobanion) * Aided Semmenon's defection from the Zhentariam. We're currently working against the Githyanki and "Against the Giants" while plotting Sarevok's death. Along the way, we've gained 6 out of 7 pieces of the Rod of Seven parts. Part of the fun is the fact that I actually have PCs who frequently run away from fights to get the missions accomplished or come up with bizarre plots to stop stronger enemies. I also throw in powerful henchmen whom help the experience drain...at least until they're killed.
Scathlock 02-20-08, 12:51 PM	I... bother you? What did I do! I'M SORRY! *sniff* :-) :clap: Chapeau, Monsieur. I ran straight into that one.
Scathlock 02-20-08, 01:03 PM	My version is a bit more cerebral. Law, Order, Good, and Evil are all concrete forces in the universe. They have their own Elemental Material Planes actually where they're embodied. Good=The Positive Material Plane, Evil=The Negative Material Plane, Chaos=The Ethereal Plane, and the Astral Plane is the Plane of Law. [DM's Note: Yes, I'm aware that's arbitrary for the Astral and Ethereal] However, humans have taken these concepts and made them something more which is what the Outer Planes are. The irony is that, human beings and other races may strive for all these various concepts, but they ultimately have to choose for themselves which is best. Mount Celestia is the Realm of Perfect Good, at least as some people define it, but it's Hell to other people. Even Balance doesn't work because flat out, is it REALLY better that certain people get to get away with crap because it's for the absolute importance of being able to choose to be a :censored:? That's actually a decision my games state that no one in the universe can make for you. There's a constant struggle between these forces and its from hat conflict that the universe is shaped. It's up to you and your character to say what's really a fulfilling life. Paladins aren't WRONG to crusade for LG and LG only. Ditto the Harpers who hold Freedom and Good is THE point. But never the twain shall meet. Hmmm, I doubt the concept of having non-outer-planes that actually embody concepts like good and evil, law and chaos would work for me, unless you fiddled with the "location" of these planes, like there's a direct way (like the great ring road gates) to reach those cardinal planes of alignment from the corresponding outer planes, and those cardinal planes jut out like spikes from the ring. This would change mechanics considerably from planescape canon. I very much agree with your vision of the outer planes though. And I don't doubt that you put more brain cells into it than the average warhamster has to spend. :P
SmartPaladin 02-20-08, 01:11 PM	I have an idea for the planes. Or at least the plane of Chaos. Okay, we know the plane of Chaos is, well, Chaotic. So why shouldn't the gate to it follow the same rule? How about have the Gate to the Plane of Chaos move around... Like maybe "Well it was here Yesterday!" Oh, oh, and let it work randomly. Like someone tries it, nothing, their party member tries it, they go through, and out comes a chicken or something really odd. Like a deep water fish. And then when the rest of the party comes in, don't let them be all together. Have 'em spread out and make them try to find one another. Have fun with it! Er... Sorry... Haven't eaten yet.
Charles Phipps 02-20-08, 02:51 PM	Hmmm, I doubt the concept of having non-outer-planes that actually embody concepts like good and evil, law and chaos would work for me, unless you fiddled with the "location" of these planes, like there's a direct way (like the great ring road gates) to reach those cardinal planes of alignment from the corresponding outer planes, and those cardinal planes jut out like spikes from the ring. This would change mechanics considerably from planescape canon. I very much agree with your vision of the outer planes though. And I don't doubt that you put more brain cells into it than the average warhamster has to spend. :P Well, I'm certain there's plenty of portals from the Negative material Plane to the Plane of Shadow, the Abyss, The Nine Hells, and so on. However, the basic idea is that all of those planes are largely empty and filled with just raw energy. Basically, as I explained to my players: The negative material plane is the Dark Side of the Force and the Positive material Plane is the Positive Side of the Force. Death and Entropy or Life and Creation. Detect Evil and Detect Good sense these feelings within you. Oddly, The Weave cycles energy from the Positive Material Plane and Negative Material Plane to power magic. I have an idea for the planes. Or at least the plane of Chaos. Okay, we know the plane of Chaos is, well, Chaotic. So why shouldn't the gate to it follow the same rule? How about have the Gate to the Plane of Chaos move around... Like maybe "Well it was here Yesterday!" Pretty much the case for Pandemonium and Limbo. :-)
Scathlock 02-20-08, 04:12 PM	Ahhh, now I understand. Works similar in my campaign in fact. (As a side note on the two sides of the force; Planescape and Star Wars go together quite well, I've found)
Storm_Silverhand 02-20-08, 05:29 PM	Heya, True. But would you like to live next door to someone you could confirm was evil? : - ) Unless I was a paladin or a cleric, I wouldn't be able to do that, so how would I know? :P (Though I probably would end up being a cleric of some kind if I were transported into the Realms, so...) I wouldn't say unreliable. Rather, it tells you something that isn't telling you that much in a specific situation. Alignments don't change often, only after a life-changing event. Just because you're in a bad mood and acting snippy for a day, doesn't make you not Lawful Good, it just means someone cut you off in traffic. :-) Right. Alignments don't change at the drop of a hat, but that doesn't mean it's not possible to do things against your alignment and not have it change... This is what I mean by alignment not being a straight jacket. Like I said, they're close to the same thing. But "We're good" only justifies the attack if they're evil. "We're good and so are they" won't cut it. You need "They're evil!" Yes, you do. But people can bend definitions to suit themselves... But, having said that, in a world where you can detect good and evil, that is probably less likely (but not completely unknown - I'm sure the Zhents think they're doing what is right.) Maybe the difference is the difference between Good and Right. Well, yes, the mere fact that you can see for a fact that you are evil wouldn't convince some people. Apropos of nothing: "Your evil is my good. I am Sutekh the destroyer. Where I tread, I leave nothing but dust and darkness. I find that good!" - Sutekh, Doctor Who: The Pyramids of Mars LOL. :) But paladins detect alignment at will and most of those methods are too expensive for the general public. Evil should be practically under seige in any LG territory. I think there is a mild implication in DnD that the only real Good is Lawful Good. But as for alignment changes? Well, that can be accomplished by many things, not just magical items and spells. People can and do change, sometimes because of many little things over a long period of time, and sometimes because something big happens and shakes them out of their lethargy - but even then it takes time and isn't something that happens overnight... But it does happen. :) She doesn't have a FR portfolio... yet. She'll be acting to claim one. Meh. That doesn't mean Ao is going to strip portfolios from Sune to give them to her, now does it? I'm fairly sure Ao wouldn't do it... What would happen is she might get portfolios not already claimed, or if she were to be reduced in power, be given a subset of Sune's portfolios. I can't see Love as LN, sorry... I'm unrelentingly biased, LN is my least favorite alignment, and having Love irrevocably linked to Lawful Matrimony is treading too close to the way things are in this world for my liking. By the way, if I did things my way, Sune would be NG.
Charles Phipps 02-20-08, 05:56 PM	Meh. That doesn't mean Ao is going to strip portfolios from Sune to give them to her, now does it? I'm fairly sure Ao wouldn't do it... What would happen is she might get portfolios not already claimed, or if she were to be reduced in power, be given a subset of Sune's portfolios. I can't see Love as LN, sorry... I'm unrelentingly biased, LN is my least favorite alignment, and having Love irrevocably linked to Lawful Matrimony is treading too close to the way things are in this world for my liking. Ao's greatest law seems to be "Power belongs to those who can seize it." If Wee Jas was associated with love by more people than Sune, then yes....She could strip Sune of that title and then probably destroy her or force her into submission. Of course, Shar's mistake was that Ao was not amused by her attempt to claim magic. "The Spell plague did not support magic as a portfolio. Sorry." And if Wee Jass was Goddess of Love then she'd more or less promote elaborate and ridiculous rules about everything. There would be Love for Marriage, Love for Kinsmen, Love for your Mistress, Love for your Children, and all of it would be perfectly ranked along with the level of social applicability. If a contract said "No problem with sex with a concubine, she can even live with us" then fine. However, those who violate the contract and are swept up in passion would suffer the fate of individuals like... A Storm of Swords Spoiler King Robert Stark. The guy falls in love with a lowly born nobleman's daughter and marries her. Thus breaking a marriage contract. His entire family is murdered and all of his men at arms in a brutal slaughter at the wedding. Wee Jas would approve. I doubt Wee Jas would care about "sex only in marriage." However, you control love. Love does not control you. There's no change, no being swept up in emotion, and merely cold obligation and duty. Wee Jas's love is like the undead. Cold and Unflinching....while also Hungry.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-20-08, 08:45 PM	I never thought Wee Jas had much at all to do with love. She has the portfolio of vanity, which is something quite different (though it tends to be associated with love and beauty, since wanting to attract a mate can involve excessive concern with one's appearance). She's known for her on and off romance with a Chaotic Neutral god (!) Norebo (god of luck, gambling, and risks), but that doesn't make her inherently more "romantic" than most other gods, who also have their own godly paramours.
Charles Phipps 02-20-08, 08:58 PM	The role of goddess of love is a new invention of the Suel Pantheon's take on her. Recall, on Greyhawk, portfolio means about zilch. You can have 99 War Gods.
Charles Phipps 02-20-08, 10:02 PM	Sune (Lady Firehair, The Queen of Love and Beauty, The Fickle Mistress, The Fairest of them All) Greater Power of Arborea Portfolio: Beauty, Desire, Empathy, Love, Romance, Passion Aliases: Aphrodite, Hanali Celanil, Inanna, Istar Alignment: Chaotic Good Superior: Ao Allies: Finder-Milil, Ilmater, Lliira, Mystra (formerly), Lathander, The Seldarine, Selune, Sharess, Siamorphe, Tymora Hostile: Tyr Foes: Asmodeus, Bane, Garagos, Cyric, Lolth, Talona, Tempus, Velsharoon Symbol: A female head surrounded by flaming red hair Domains: Chaos, Charm, Good, Protection Worshipper's Alignment: LG, NG, CG, LN, N, CN, LE, NE, CE Sune (pronounced SOO-nee) is a goddess that has a vast church but almost eveyrone on Abeir-Toril prays to her at times, which is something that can somewhat skew one's perceptions of the Goddess of Love. She is a powerful, fickle, and surprisingly gentle deity whom is one of the most powerful goddess' on Toril. She is also a force for change and chaos that many would rather do without. Sune's preferred appearance is that of a nude or semi-clothed female beauty of tremendous power. Unlike some other deities, Sune has never been known to appear as anything but a woman when manifesting in a humanoid form. However, she's been known to appear as a swan or as a flaming brazier of dancing lights or a shower of gold amongst other non-corpreal forms. History and Relationships: There is never a more misunderstood goddess than Sune. True, the Lady Firehair is a fickle and vain deity whom can seem jealous or petty but she is not the goddess of Romance alone. In truth, Sune is the goddess of all forms of love and only recently has been pleased to have gained Ilmater's friendship and trust. Sune is a goddess whom is capable of finding the beauty in the features of a mongrelman or a leper while preferring much the loveliness of a noble heart than that of exterior appearances. One would be surprised to find out that "Beauty is only skin deep" is a Sune proverb, albeit a mangled one. The actual line is "Outer beauty is only skin deep, but the beauty within shall shine forth to all who are capable of seeing." Sune has numerous creation myths about her, in part because the goddess has never let the truth get in the way of a good story. The most commonly repeated one is that she's Chauntea's sister and the result of Selune's tears over Shar's betrayal falling to the ocean. This is an outright fabrication. Sune is an interloper deity of the now deceased Olympian pantheon that was briefly popular in Faerun before the majority of it's members were replaced by more popular deities or left to other realms. Sune is a goddess of love in its most emotional and instinctive forms. While she has dominion over courtly love and the kind that grows between people who become bonded for reasons like property or alliance, she doesn't much care for it. Sune is a believer that love is, first and foremost, a transformative force. Love can lay low Empires, destroy tyrants, inspire heroes, and set to destruction the plots of centuries of abuse. Sune inspires love in the hearts of many 'doomed' romances that she uses as the basis to undermine what she views as injustices in the world. Aasimar, Class-Crossing, Gensai, Half-Elves, and many others are the result of her meddling. Sometimes, these stories end tragically and this pains Sune greatly but she believes any inhibition to love from gender taboos to loveless marriages to tyrannical fathers should be annihilated. Overall, Sune has largely suceeded in dealing with much of the oppression and taboo that once existed upon Faerun. Unfortunately, there are still many places where such things still exist and people are held in bondage or debased beyond reason. Sune's priests and priestesses are often available to lay terrible curses or vengeances upon those whom have committed a violation of love or its acts such as abusers or those whom have engaged in rapine. It is Sune's ultimate goal to have a world where war and other horrors cease to exist. Sune believes, perhaps rightly, that a world of affection and pleasure is one where individuals will be far less likely to raise an ax into a neighbor's head. This is why Sune promotes the arts and entertainments as strongly as she does. Sune would far rather a world be where the deformed and unwashed are made healthy and clean than give charity for their suffering, however. Sune does not say 'blessed are the poor' but 'how do we make everyone comfortably wealthy?' Unfortunately, it's also the reason that so many bored aristocrats and rakes choose to enter her clergy. Nothing has done more damage to Sune's reputation than the fact that so many vapid hedonists have come to the conclusion that hers is the faith for them. These mindless indulgers rarely rise high in the faith despite Sune usually finding some use for them. Nevertheless, they're so common that every Sunite priest or priestess will have to deal with some unwanted assumptions about them. Sune's Paladins are a unique order as the Ruby Knights are composed of individuals sworn to obey Sune and fight for justice. They are at odds with most of the other clergy since they are an order that fights and dies by the will of Lady Love with little focus on the transformation that is so much. They are a devoted and dedicated group to fighting evil but do have something of a reputation as rakes. Sune holds monogamy up as something that works quite well if two are passionately devoted to one another but it's a definite tendency of their priests to spread the love again and her knights are no exception. Sune has a passionate rivalry with Tyr despite getting along reasonably well with the other deities of Mount Celestia. Bluntly, Tyr is a dour deity who believes that one should set aside one's personal feelings for service to the community. He is a stark traditionalist and a grim one that believes the world is meant to be endured more than enjoyed. The only thing the two agree on is the opposition of evil and Sune would much prefer Torm to replace him. Ironically, she's rapidly growing to dislike Siamorphe for much the same reasons that the later goddess became unpopular on Mount Celestia. Siamorphe is a great believer in tradition and the idea of class-crossing boundries is a great sin in her church, something Sune cannot abide. It is likely their relationship will terminate far faster than most. Dogma: Love should be abandoned to whenever possible. One should not become stupid over issues of love but it is a feeling to be cheerish and indulged with every fiber of one's being. People should be willing to move mountains, raise kingdoms, and shake the pillars of Heaven for love. Individuals who put anything before love are fundamentally wrong and to be opposed. While Sune holds that love between lovers is the most relevant, a general agape for all beings is also to be cherished and held true. When the entire world embraces love then all evil will disappear from it.
GothicDan 02-20-08, 10:13 PM	Interesting take on Sune, there. I find the bit about her rivalry with Siamorphe a bit weird, but maybe that's because I missed your take on Siamorphe (if you posted it!) I tend to separate "love" deities into three Lesser goddesses myself, who I call the Sisters of the Heart. CE: Seduction, selfish hedonism, overindulgence, jealousy. CN: Passion, beauty, vanity. CG: Love, romance, partners, relationships. I like to play up, somewhat, the fact that Aphrodite was very much not a clean-cut CG Deity, but rather the fact that she had some REALLY ugly sides, which I epitomize above in the CE and CN goddesses.
Charles Phipps 02-20-08, 10:31 PM	Yep. I wrote Sune as an explicit counter to that, despite her being the Realms Aphrodite. But no, my take on Siamorphe is basically a LN embodiment of nobility with all its ups and downs.
GothicDan 02-20-08, 10:33 PM	Siamorphe's always been one of my favorites, but I guess I'll let you portray her as you want. ;) Look, no arguments!
Charles Phipps 02-20-08, 10:34 PM	Go ahead and say otherwise. I don't get this weird view of yours where you don't post dissent on a message board. People post stuff for critictism and counterpoints. ;-)
The_Mess 02-20-08, 10:36 PM	Unless I was a paladin or a cleric, I wouldn't be able to do that, so how would I know? :P The same way I know I have a registered sex offender living a block down the road: Word of mouth. (Though I probably would end up being a cleric of some kind if I were transported into the Realms, so...) I'd like to say I'd be a swordsage... but I have to be honest. Is there a base class called "Fat Lazy Slob"? :-) I think there is a mild implication in DnD that the only real Good is Lawful Good. Ask an elf about that. :-)
Charles Phipps 02-20-08, 11:08 PM	Siamorphe (The Chalice Holder of the Gods, The Divine Right, The Queen of Queens) Lesser Power of Arcadia Portfolio: Class, Heirarchy, Nobles, rightful noble rule, human royalty Aliases: Victori, Shalot Alignment: Lawful Neutral Superior: Sune (formerly Tyr) Allies: Bane (secret), Helm (formerly), Sune, Torm, Tyr (formerly), Red Knight, Waukeen Foes: Cyric, Gra'azt, Lliira, Mask, Talos Symbol: A Chalice with a Sun on it Domains: Law, Nobility, Protection, War Siamorphe (pronounced SIGH-a-morf or SEE-a-morf) is a goddess that embodies the principles of ruler-ship by birthright. She seeks a restructuring of society where the educated, superior, and strong nobility are able to bring heel to the chaotic and unpredictable ways of the masses. Siamorphe believes strongly in the principles of being a good shepherd but she is a goddess that never lets her followers forget that the majority of the world's people are sheep. Siamorphe tends to appear as an aged regal matron with silver hair and a royal diadem on her head. She has been known to appear as a fierce warrior and a steward on occasion but only rarely appears in a form other than her original sex. Only recently, in fact, has she started appearing any differently than her original mortal form. History and Relationships: Siamorphe is the last living heiress of one of the great houses of Tethyr that used to pass the role of godhood down through the line. Once every hundred years, another direct descendent of the original Siamorphe would take the role of god or goddess. Unfortunately, the current Siamorphe died without an heir and thus she will remain the only one from this day forward. In truth, this has helped the religion somewhat as the consistency has stabilized much of the religion's growing ranks. Siamorphe is a practical goddess, first and foremost, and disdains the more esoteric pursuits of most deities. Good and evil are concerns for lesser beings as the nobility have an easy standard by which to measure their success, whether or not their lands are prospering while they have guaranteed a suitable sucession. Siamorphe is a goddess of the aristocracy and believes strongly that it has been allowed to rot thanks to the mismanagement of poor monarchs along with the feuding of the gods above. The loss of Siamorphe's longstanding alliance with Tyr has hurt her less than many expected. In truth, the deity has never really been comfortable in the House of the Triad. Siamorphe was a much stronger ally of Helm rather than the leader of the Triad. Both she and he appreciated that the first concern of any being should be duty with honor before any merciful concerns. In Siamorphe's eyes, the Law is an absolute and unbreakable thing. This contrasted sharply with Tyr's own belief that the Law should be flexible in the pursuit of greater justice. Torm is still allied with her due to his own belief in the sanctity of oaths and his wife's own principled service but the two deities do not particularly like one another. Siamorphe's ultimate goal is to unite all of Faerun into a singular empire that is ruled by a set of aristocratic houses. She despises the current Dark Age of feuding city states spread across an uncertain wilderness (something not helped at all by the Spell Plague). Thus, Siamorphe has been sponsoring many local lords on personal missions of conquest while encouraging them to construct roads and other nation building acts. Siamorphe opposes the various Magocracies that have emerged on Abeir-Toril as she holds that they are too focused on meaningless wizard power than the all importance of the blood. Ultimately, Siamorphe's presence has been somewhat of a disruptive influence in Arborea as Lliira and she outright despise the other. The goddess of freedom tends to associate her portfolio too often with 'equality' in Siamorphe's mind, which is something that simply makes the Dancer goddess look foolish in the Divine Right's eyes. Likewise, Waukeen is an old associate of Siamorphe's as nothing make a monarchy more stable than a free flow of coinage. In the end, it is likely that Waukeen will ally with the more stable presence of Siamorphe over her long friend in the goddess of Joy. Siamorphe has made a peaceful overture to Bane, recently. Siamorphe personally cannot stand Bane as a brutal fool who ravages his own domiciles but believes that its better to use the velvet glove when dealing with him with sword drawn. Siamorphe hopes that she can mitigate some of the Tyrant's darker impulses in his church while drawing on their common desire to see a united Faerun. Ultimately, she's aware he's a treacherous fool but believes that a portion of his worshipers can be stolen before she must break their alliance. Siamorphe's enemies are those whom attempt to cause Chaos within the Realms and violate the all important nature of the law. She despises Cyric above all things thanks to the man's destructive unleashing of the Spell Plague (and the annihilation of some of the most stable nations in Faerun). Nevertheless, she almost loathes Mask as much thanks to the god of Intrigue's desire to keep nobles locked in meaningless infighting. Dogma: A true noble must be perfect in all things. They must be well-educated, genteel, mannerly, wise, an excellent protector, and a cunning politician. It is the duty of the clergy of Siamorphe to encourage all these qualities in the aristocracy of Faerun. Furthermore, they must be brought to awareness of their noble responsibilities. A noble must make sure that their land functions properly and that his people are kept from ravishment. A nobleman must keep sacred their agreements and treaties with alliances meant to be held to the letter of the law (and the spirit unless they are with violators). Likewise, a noble must always be clear on the fact that it is important to expand the rule of law and aristocracy whenever possible. Conquest of a fellow noble's lawful territories is a terrible sin if conducted for its own sake. However, the majority of Faerun is wild and untamed. There is no evil in forcing those without a proper sovereign over them into service, with the sword if words will not work. Coin collectors, mages, peasants, and religious despots must be made to recognize that all are meant to serve the will of the aristocracy rather than the reverse. Lawful monarchs are to be restored to power whenever possible, even if one must briefly suffer some trouble from careless or foolish ones. Aristocracy carries over three generations before it is diluted fully. It is irresponsible and disgusting to breed outside of one's class as well as socially so if it is not done outside of the concept of marriage.
Storm_Silverhand 02-21-08, 12:33 AM	Heya, Dogma: A true nobleman must be perfect in all things. He must be well-educated, genteel, mannerly, wise, an excellent protector, and a cunning politician. It is the duty of the clergy of Siamorphe to encourage all these qualities in the aristocracy of Faerun. Furthermore, they must be brought to awareness of their noble responsibilities. A nobleman must make sure that his land functions properly and that his people are kept from ravishment. A nobleman must keep sacred his agreements and treaties with alliances meant to be held to the letter of the law (and the spirit unless they are with violators). <snip!> I am very sure you can rewrite this so it's not so gender biased. I'm pretty sure that Siamorphe would be an equal opportunity deity, and would actually not agree with a patriarchy. (I can see her agreeing with Primogeniture (first born being heir) but not patriarchy.)
Charles Phipps 02-21-08, 01:04 AM	Heya, I am very sure you can rewrite this so it's not so gender biased. I'm pretty sure that Siamorphe would be an equal opportunity deity, and would actually not agree with a patriarchy. (I can see her agreeing with Primogeniture (first born being heir) but not patriarchy.) Nobleman is, in Siamorphe's case, gender neutral. Most of Siamorphe's sincerest followers and most influential followers are women as well. Edit: I'll also change it, since it does sound rather 'off.' Yes, she's the perfect goddess for this guy. http://umsa7.ums.edu/~anniebw/farscape/images/rygel9.jpg
GothicDan 02-21-08, 08:11 AM	Very different than how I'd portray Siamorphe, but a believable deity nonetheless.
Charles Phipps 02-21-08, 12:09 PM	Very different than how I'd portray Siamorphe, but a believable deity nonetheless. Well I focused strongly on what made her LN than LG. Plus, the Spell Plague hasn't been kind to her disposition.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-21-08, 12:35 PM	[Sune has a passionate rivalry with Tyr despite getting along reasonably well with the other deities of Mount Celestia. Bluntly, Tyr is a dour deity who believes that one should set aside one's personal feelings for service to the community. He is a stark traditionalist and a grim one that believes the world is meant to be endured more than enjoyed. The only thing the two agree on is the opposition of evil and Sune would much prefer Torm to replace him. I don't care for this idea of Sune being "hostile" with Tyr. That being said, otherwise I rather like your take on her.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-21-08, 12:37 PM	I like to play up, somewhat, the fact that Aphrodite was very much not a clean-cut CG Deity, but rather the fact that she had some REALLY ugly sides, which I epitomize above in the CE and CN goddesses. I agree with that, though I find pretty much all of the Greek god' alignments (in D&D) to be dubious to begin with. The Greek gods seemed to me more like complicated people who didn't fit neatly into the D&D alignment categories.
Storm_Silverhand 02-21-08, 04:49 PM	Heya, Nobleman is, in Siamorphe's case, gender neutral. Most of Siamorphe's sincerest followers and most influential followers are women as well. Edit: I'll also change it, since it does sound rather 'off.' In this day and age, it is generally a good idea to avoid using the male pronoun as gender neutral. IMHO it's insulting to both men and women. Yes, she's the perfect goddess for this guy. <snip image> You said that, and I still don't know who that guy is beyond the fact he's from Farscape... A series I never watched.
Charles Phipps 02-21-08, 05:19 PM	Yes, it probably is. Though honestly, I think it's not terribly important since I use the female noun just as often. He's Rigel, an annoyingly fun monarch and despot. I just moved him because it was crowding up the Siamorphe entry. But yes, I felt Siamorphe needed revising since we didn't have a god for a more neutral view of the nobility. Not a Tyrant or a Benevolent one.
Charles Phipps 02-21-08, 10:36 PM	Levels, Classes, and NPCs in Faerun-616 The drastic powering down of Faerun was done for my own piece of mind. Bluntly, I was bothered by the fact that King Azoun was a 20th level Soldier even as early as 2nd edition and felt that something genuinely needed to be done about the fact that levels seemed to be assigned rather arbitrarilly. I think that "PCs being able to throw their weight around" isn't something that's important in a setting but I do believe that every level that a NPC has is one that should have some story behind it. Ergo, everytime someone appears with PC levels then that person has a reputation that's equivalent to it. NPC Classes: Almost without exception, the vast majority of NPCs in Faerun are 1st or 2nd level Commoners. The vast majority of the peasantry never learn any trade but an easy one that allows them to take care of their family or live on a fairly subsistence level. Experts are reserved for those trades that require an exceptional amount of knowledge. Thus, the average experienced Doctor is a 2nd level Expert that has some ranks in Healing along with some Knowledge (Medicine). Adepts: As stated in the handbook, the vast majority of priests can work the equivalent of the rites of their faith. This means blessings, creating holy water, and otherwise giving a few innocuous miracles whose effectiveness may or may not be really noteworthy. Spellcasters: Because magic is not particularly noteworthy, "Magic" don't invoke much in the way of superstitious awe in the peasants. Even a powerful Cleric or Wizard is something that doesn't invoke a feeling of unnatural nature, save in the same context that someone building an atomic bomb might (and people certainly might object to THAT in their backyards). Resurrection: Because of the drastically reduced skill charts, resurrection is one of the few genuinely 'superstitious' miracles with healing having a pretty dramatic effect by itself. While healing can be done by most Temples just fine, they too get some of the overly grateful gratitude people have but they don't have the power to raise the dead. By average, people may have heard of someone raising the dead but few will be reliable witnesses to it. Overall, there's only 13 or so people in Faerun who can raise the dead. Paladins: Paladins in Faerun-616 are, by comparison to the real game, ridiculously rare. The Holy Knight criteria is fulfilled by Adepts/Warriors with the rare Cleric/Fighter being a great example of piety mixed with faith. Paladins are, instead, chosen the same way as Exalted. Some force chooses a champion to embody their ideals. Oddly, in Faerun, Paladins are much more dynamic and varied with their supernatural abilities encouraged to be homebrewed or prestige classed out the window. GMs should be encouraged to exchange abilities like Lay on Hands and Mount for things that are more appropriate to their concept. Usually, Paladins have some sort of purpose they have been called to as well. Given Cleric/Fighter is pretty badass, I may just have to make it flat out LG Fighters. PC Classes: All PC classes represent some level of exceptional nature that is tremendously rare in Faerun. A Ranger is much more likely to represent someone like Tarzan the King of Beasts or the Phantom than it is to be your average Forrester. This is mostly POTENTIAL though as just being a PC doesn't necessarily mean your character WILL be that skilled in the end. Plenty of heroes have had their careers cut drastically short. Faerun is full of exceptional people as well, they're just mostly bad guys. Levels While 1st to 2nd level is the majority of people that a person meets. 3rd level represents someone that is considered "Very Good" at their job, not just experienced. A 1st level Fighter may be a Green Beret by comparison to a 2nd level Warrior but he's just out of training while a 3rd Level Fighter has got quite a few missions under his belt. 4th level and 5th level is where "heroes" emerge with decorated veterans of various conflicts are known. 6th through 9th levels are where levels start to be less Earthly and more action movie orientated. These men possess Bruce Li and Rambo like levels of skills that tear through large groups of guys and leave entire hordes of bad guys dead. They also receive their "name" where people have heard of you across your field and assume stories are exaggerated (they're not). Your King now may ask for you by name. 10th-12th level continues this until they become effectively amongst the most famous individuals on the continent for their generation of field. They are the people you think of as THE best in their field for something like working magic or the like. Warriors start becoming almost video game like in their ability to mow down opponents and feared like superheroes. Other governments may now ask for you by name and other groups that need your services. 13th through 16th level is when someone becomes "Legendary" at something in Faerun. Warriors move like anime characters and their powers are viewed as supernatural in nature (which they sometimes are). PCs might start getting things named after them like the Conan Sword that they may or may not have wielded but artificer's craft after them. This is the top rank of most "Archwizards" and "Great Warriors" in Faerun. 17th through 18th level is when PCs cease being legendary and are now something like myths. They've probably done enough deeds that everyone on the continent has heard of them or their actions. Indeed, you are probably known on other continents as well. Beyond mere folk legends, you're THE Archmagius or Priest of Deneir. You're expected to show up at Coronations like some weird Merlin figure. Smaller adventurers come to you and b*** about various evils that they expect you to take care of. The Balance of Power can actually be shifted by your influence. Imitators try to cash in on your fame and ballads of complete nonsense of your adventures are made up because few people can scarcely believe you're real. 18th-20th level is the period where your influence starts to become pretty much all-encompassing as you will. With the power to slay armies or control nations at will, you might want to seriously start thinking of retiring or working through proxies since mortal free will is now threatened by your very existence. Epic Level: Epic levels still exist but primarilly belong to beings that are thousands of years old and pretty much are treated as plot devices. Those who go past 20th level are effectively invincible in my Faerun. New Levels for Major NPCs Elminster of Shadowdale: CG 20th Level Mage The Simbul: CN 20th Level Sorceress Khelben The Blackstaff: LN 19th level Wizard Alustriel of Silverymoon: LG 17th Level Wizard Larael: NG 16th level Wizard/2nd level Ranger Halastar Blackcloak: CE Epic Level Larloch: NE Epic Level (established cleanly as "The Most Powerful Wizard that has ever walked Faerun or ever will. The only reason he's not a god is he doesn't care to be.") Manshoon: LE 18th Level Wizard Sylune: NG 16th Level Priest of Mystra Fzoul Chembryl: LE 18th level Cleric The Twisted Rune: LE-NE Epic Level, Effectively the Illuminati of all Toril and able to shape mankind's destiny as they see fit. Telamont: NE 19th Level Wizard Myrmeen Lhal: LG 8th Level Fighter/2nd level Aristocrat King Azoun: CG 15th level Fighter Vangerdahast: LN 15th Level Wizard Alusair: CG 12th Level Fighter/3rd level Aristocrat Caladnei: 9th Level Sorceress/2nd level Rogue Danillo Thann: NG 9th level Bard/3rd level Wizard Arilyn Moonblade: CG 8th Level Ranger/4th Level Rogue Szass Tam: LE 20th Level Mage Drizzt Do'Urden: NG 14th Level Ranger/2nd Level Berserker Artemis Entreri: CN (formerly LE) 14th level Fighter/2nd level Rogue Cadderly: LG 16th level Priest of Deneir (established as one of the most powerful priests in the whole of the Forgotten Realms)
Charles Phipps 02-21-08, 10:47 PM	Gods in the Realms A simple statement to clarify matters in FR. No human being can stand toe to toe with a god. Even the least Demigod can crush any human being, no matter how mighty, like an insect. Gods do not have levels or defined abilities in Faerun-616 but are mysterious and limited in only the manner that the DM sees fit to handle it. Bizarrely, gods are not INVULNERABLE to human beings. Magic has it's own power and it's possible for Epic Level Magicians to be able to bind gods or even destroy them, especially if they have the aid of some other deity. These spells are dicey affairs since many gods are liable to sense them and smite the mortal for their presumption in the matter. Likewise, artifacts are different matters entirely from normal magical weapon. They are plot devices and objects like the Rod of Seven Parts of other legendary items often possess the power to do harm to divinities or effect them in some small manner. Oftentimes, divinities create them as weapons against their fellows. Of course, this is effectively the equivalent of handing a toddler the equivalent of the Red Button for the nukes. Avatars in the Forgotten Realms are not the all-powerful beings listed in Faiths and Pantheons either. Avatars tend to be anywhere from 14th to 20th level for most divine beings with the Greater Gods tending to average around the former. They can be bound, slain, or coerced depending on the capabilities of the mortal. It can be as simple a matter as blocking a planar teleportation as well. Suffice to say, unless you have the protection of a god or are a being of 'destiny' then doing this will result in your horrible demise as you are probably instantly cursed to spend the rest of eternity in the most dire pits of horror imaginable by said deity. Gods in the realms are usually limited to cursing their own flock but exceptions are made when some fool oversteps his station. Likewise, the Chosen's power is not nearly so grandiose as in the real world. Immortality is a tremendous gift but the gifts tend to be far smaller than those of the Chosen of Mystra. Instead of being awarded immediately, they are gifted one portion at a time. If a Chosen is created by a deity, the greatest gift of such is the fact that they can grant spells even if their Chosen deity is slain. Once created, a Chosen cannot be stripped of his title or rank. He must be slain.
Storm_Silverhand 02-22-08, 12:51 AM	Heya, Levels, Classes, and NPCs in Faerun-616 As you can probably guess, I don't like it. You may as well play in Greyhawk, that's how anti-Realms it feels to me. :) But it's your game. I do have some comments about your "reclassing and releveling" NPCs that might be a little more constructive... (If there're reasons you've changed them, not just oversights or mistakes, I'd be curious to know your thinking behind them.) Sylune: NG 16th Level Priest of Mystra I'd say Sylune is more likely to be a Sorceress, with maybe a level or two in Expert (Herbalism). Silverfire makes a great substitute for healing, and Sylune was better known for her knowledge of herbs, IIRC. Myrmeen Lhal: LG 8th Level Fighter/2nd level Aristocrat Myrmeen is specifically a Ranger, not a Fighter. Once, a very long time ago, she served Mielikki, but the Forest Queen and Tymora came to some kind of agreement, and Myrmeen now serves Tymora. (Tymora favours Myrmeen, and that was the reason Tymora stayed in Arabel during the Time of Troubles. Unfortunately we've not been able to get Ed to elaborate the whys and wherefores of this favour.) Myrmeen is also NG not LG. As you've statted her, she may as well be a completely different person. King Azoun: CG 15th level Fighter King Azoun was LG not CG. Alusair: CG 12th Level Fighter/3rd level Aristocrat Given the sort of personality that Alusair has, I'd give her less levels in Aristocrat, and replace them with Fighter levels... Also she's the same level as her father, so I might simply cut off her Aristocrat levels all together (or tap Azoun up a level or two, since he was supposedly a great warrior/general). She's also NG not CG, though I think I agree with you on her alignment, and not canon in this case. :) Caladnei: 9th Level Sorceress/2nd level Rogue She's a Sorcerer/Fighter not a Sorcerer/Rogue, and is NG in alignment.
Charles Phipps 02-22-08, 01:08 AM	As you can probably guess, I don't like it. You may as well play in Greyhawk, that's how anti-Realms it feels to me. But it's your game. Actually, I consider it closer to how Ed Greenwood imagined the Realms. Bluntly, its' time someone put the magic back in the Realms and the only way to do that is remind people that Elminster and company are IMPRESSIVE. Greyhawk, oddly enough is a realm that never appealed to me. As you've statted her, she may as well be a completely different person. The stats reflect her after she's fallen from the status of Ranger to become a Fighter. I'm aware of her history. 8th level Ex-Ranger sounds less impressive than Fighter. She still loves hunting, fishing, and wildlife but mostly spends 24-7 in Arabel. I'd say Sylune is more likely to be a Sorceress, with maybe a level or two in Expert (Herbalism). Silverfire makes a great substitute for healing, and Sylune was better known for her knowledge of herbs, IIRC. True, bluntly I just felt it made Sylune more different from her sisters. The fact she's the "Pious One" always seemed to be something that worked in our games. King Azoun was LG not CG. No offense Storm, but duh. I've sort of read "Heroes' Lorebook" ;-) He was also 20th level. His alignment changed in the write-up because it better reflects his character as a loud and "do what I please" hedonist. LG doesn't reflect Azoun's personality or disposition. But yes, Azoun was a great warrior King and a fantastic general. Few in Faerun's history were ever his equal, much like his daughter. Given the sort of personality that Alusair has, I'd give her less levels in Aristocrat, and replace them with Fighter levels... Also she's the same level as her father, so I might simply cut off her Aristocrat levels all together (or tap Azoun up a level or two, since he was supposedly a great warrior/general). She's also NG not CG, though I think I agree with you on her alignment, and not canon in this case. The Aristocrat levels were achieved after her Ascension to the Throne. Bluntly, she proves to be a far better leader and more capable diplomat than her father ever was. Also, she remains just as capable on the battlefield (or nearly so). But yes, basically I consider her very much her father's daughter. Like he, she's a legend in Cormyr. She's a Sorcerer/Fighter not a Sorcerer/Rogue, and is NG in alignment. I gave her Rogue Levels because of her described role as a Sneak and the Leader of the War Wizards. Unlike Vangerdahast, Caladnei had the good sense to learn about disguise and sneaking while not mastering solely the abilities of a magician. For me, I think it's important to remember that the Forgotten Realms are a place of HIGH ADVENTURE and EPIC GRANDEUR which is where I bring it from. The gods are able to be opposed and thwarted while also incredible magical wonders are being performed all the time. However, you have to earn it. Part of the issue is that I still consider all of the many great and glorious creations of Faerun to be canon, I just consider them to have been done over very long periods of time or with "Circle" magic (which basically is the same as the old 2nd Edition Priest spell where multiple wizards can combine to cast). This pretty much precludes any great need I may have for hordes of Archwizards. Take Aribeth for example, in your Realms she might be 23rd level. But what has she done? Stood around Lord Nasher the whole time? In my Realms, a 16th level has probably been raised in Ysgard and dueled with countless evils and lead armies while destroying ancient artifacts while people sing songs of them across the Realms. It's an established fact in my game Aribeth is one of the greatest swordsmen in the Realms too because it's pretty much her, Azoun, Drizzt, Artemis Entreri, Alusair, and a half dozen others.
GothicDan 02-22-08, 07:38 AM	Yeah. I spent a good amount of time reading all of the above. While I do agree there's level inflation, I really feel that you sort of threw the baby out with the bathwater there, Charles. One of my only gripes with Eberron is the absurdly low level consistency across the board. As a student of Epics (not in game terms), I think certain NPCs should be able to participate in such Epic quests - this including the Simbul and Elminster, for example. In the Mahabharata, two mighty heroes cast incantations that, when they clashed, had the power to literally destroy the world... I would keep most of the "big names" Epic level where appropriate, but I'd power down the dozens of Epic level Archmages that have done nothing important (see Kuje's documents!)
Charles Phipps 02-22-08, 11:37 AM	Yes, I intend to adjust for inflation with the upcoming Fourth Edition and more or less move everyone up to their original Faerun levels when 30th Level is available for everyone. But, overall, I've always felt 20th Level was mind numbingly powerful and don't want to undervalue it. It means "the greatest anyone can ever possibly imagine." and only a few move beyond it.
Storm_Silverhand 02-22-08, 06:16 PM	Heya, Actually, I consider it closer to how Ed Greenwood imagined the Realms. I think Ed originally imagined the Realms without levels. If you want to know what Ed thinks of the level of his NPCs in the Realms, you should ask him, and not make assumptions like that. Bluntly, its' time someone put the magic back in the Realms and the only way to do that is remind people that Elminster and company are IMPRESSIVE. IMHO, this is an oxymoron. You want to put the magic back in the Realms, so you take it away. I agree with Dan, I think you threw the baby out with the bathwater on this. The stats reflect her after she's fallen from the status of Ranger to become a Fighter. I'm aware of her history. 8th level Ex-Ranger sounds less impressive than Fighter. She still loves hunting, fishing, and wildlife but mostly spends 24-7 in Arabel. *blinks in astonishment* She FELL? After being the subject of a god swap (with the actual gods doing the swapping), she falls? Unbelievable. Ed says she likes all those things too, and that she finds the time to do them. Plus two things to note: One - Tymora is not a nature deity, but obviously has some reason for Myrmeen to have Rangerly abilities and spells, and two - just because you stop doing a thing doesn't mean you forget all about it. Make her an ex-Ranger if you must, but don't devalue her story (or take away skills and abilities she has, because that's what the result would be) by making her simply a Fighter, if you see what I'm getting at.... Bah... But what am I saying? It's your game, do what you like... You don't have to listen to me. (If I have reacted strongly here, it's because Myrmeen Lhal is my favorite non-Chosen NPC in all the Realms. (Storm's my favorite Chosen, and I couldn't choose between her and Myrmeen as overall favorite.)) True, bluntly I just felt it made Sylune more different from her sisters. The fact she's the "Pious One" always seemed to be something that worked in our games. Qilue is the pious one, and she is a 16th level Cleric already. :) He was also 20th level. His alignment changed in the write-up because it better reflects his character as a loud and "do what I please" hedonist. LG doesn't reflect Azoun's personality or disposition. But yes, Azoun was a great warrior King and a fantastic general. Few in Faerun's history were ever his equal, much like his daughter. I wouldn't have changed it all the way to CG. He still has enough lawfulness in him, IMHO, that NG would be a more appropriate alignment if you're dead set on "hedonism is chaotic" (and I doubt very much he's a "do as he pleases" kind of person... He is constrained by his role, and it chafes him from time to time, but he still carries out his duty.) The Aristocrat levels were achieved after her Ascension to the Throne. Bluntly, she proves to be a far better leader and more capable diplomat than her father ever was. Also, she remains just as capable on the battlefield (or nearly so). I just don't see Alusair becoming a "far better diplomat" than her father. I can see her becoming competent, but I can also see her going and finding her one of her Blades so she can punch the living daylights out of him after a day at the office. I gave her Rogue Levels because of her described role as a Sneak and the Leader of the War Wizards. Unlike Vangerdahast, Caladnei had the good sense to learn about disguise and sneaking while not mastering solely the abilities of a magician. Fair enough. She really doesn't have much of a background, aside from what Ed wrote of her in Elminster's Daughter, so she's the easiest to change, IMHO. Having Rogue levels gives her skill points enough to be a very effective spy. (By the way, what knowledge of sneaking about do you need when you can completely change your appearance? ;) Just asking. :P) For me, I think it's important to remember that the Forgotten Realms are a place of HIGH ADVENTURE and EPIC GRANDEUR which is where I bring it from. The gods are able to be opposed and thwarted while also incredible magical wonders are being performed all the time. However, you have to earn it. High Adventure and Epic Grandeur produce retired epic heroes eventually. If you produce a world where there's no high level retired people, it gives us no precedent for High Adventure and Epic Grandeur... All of those high level NPCs you've just knocked down many pegs, EARNED their levels... They all have events and adventures in their history that more than explains how powerful they are. Making them lower level invalidates a lot of their experiences. This pretty much precludes any great need I may have for hordes of Archwizards. Maybe there are too many Archwizards. But other classes seem to be underrepresented, and, IMHO, "nerfing" them just makes that situation worse. Take Aribeth for example, in your Realms she might be 23rd level. But what has she done? Stood around Lord Nasher the whole time? In my Realms, a 16th level has probably been raised in Ysgard and dueled with countless evils and lead armies while destroying ancient artifacts while people sing songs of them across the Realms. My Aribeth was not always Lord Nasher's right hand woman. :) She was quite a crusader for Tyr before she came to Neverwinter... That's what she did. NPCs are not static, they have lives. Just because you only ever see them in one place doing one thing in a computer game, doesn't mean they haven't done and can't do other things. It's an established fact in my game Aribeth is one of the greatest swordsmen in the Realms too because it's pretty much her, Azoun, Drizzt, Artemis Entreri, Alusair, and a half dozen others. And strangely enough, IIRC, none of them actually appear on Ed Greenwood's list of greatest swordsmen... If you're interested, I'm sure you can find the reference in Kuje's archives of Ed's answers. Yes, I intend to adjust for inflation with the upcoming Fourth Edition and more or less move everyone up to their original Faerun levels when 30th Level is available for everyone. But, overall, I've always felt 20th Level was mind numbingly powerful and don't want to undervalue it. If WotC intended level 20 to be the end of the game, they would never have released the Epic Level Handbook. If you look at the entire population of Faerun, and I'm not just talking about NPCs statted in books, I mean every single male, female, and child of all races (including monsters et al), the number of Epic NPCs represented in the source material is really a tiny tiny percentage of the entire population. It's realistic enough for me. (Obviously not for you, though. :))
Charles Phipps 02-22-08, 06:28 PM	And strangely enough, IIRC, none of them actually appear on Ed Greenwood's list of greatest swordsmen... If you're interested, I'm sure you can find the reference in Kuje's archives of Ed's answers. Actually, Storm, before I answer anything else (I have a tennis lesson in two minutes) both Artemis and Drizzt are both listed on Ed Greenwood's list of the best swordsmen in the Realms. Ahem. Heeeere's Ed: Well, now. "Swordsmen" you say, so I'm going to narrow my reply down to: male living (not dead or undead) humans. I'm going to further qualify my reply by saying that among the most skilled masters of bladework, "best" becomes a matter of opinion regarding style, and the average observer can't identify (let alone properly interpret) most subtle differences because they're either dead too quickly, or too dazzled by things that happen too swiftly for them to see properly and too deftly for them to measure or grasp the implications of (matters of shifting a foe just a little off balance, or forcing a movement in stance or location, that will lead to a killing stroke three or four maneuvers later). Moreover, "best" is a steadily shifting title, even when one sets aside divine and magical meddling, because (as with real-world tennis) youthful speed and acrobatic suppleness, plus freedom from injuries and the slowing and crippling effects of aging (on, say, the human knee), must always be balanced against the experience gained in duel after duel after battle: young swordsmen are always rising to the fore, but only step into the ranks of the "best" when those more expert through real-life practice grow too slow to defeat the most skilled younglings (or the younglings overcome their inexperience). I'm also going to restrict myself purely to matters of bladework, in a one-on-one fight in surroundings that favor neither combatant. In other words, I'm minimizing "street smarts" or dirty fighting or the adventurers' experience in exploiting traction, lighting, obstacles, distractions, and all of that: factors that seasoned adventurers (like Durnan of Waterdeep) can use to defeat foes who might be a shade faster or a whit better in pure bladework. This will work against Artemis Entreri, for example, but also against a host of other adventurers whom I won't even mention in this reply, but who might otherwise show up in my answer. (Personally, I'd rather not do any "best of" rankings, because I think they're subjective, snapshots of moments in time that are dated even as they're made, and a bit pointless. Even in pure-skill tournaments, upsets occur, and if a DM wants to create an unknown who's better than the individuals mentioned here, go right ahead.) However, I probably possess the best overview of the entire tapestry of the Realms of anyone (though not all that far ahead of, say, Messrs. Boyd and Krashos, closely followed by Schend, Hunter, and Grubb), and can speak from that strength - - not being limited, for instance, by published Realmslore. So you're really going to have to trust me here, when I say that the best bladesman in the Realms right now (1375 DR) is: Harmel Artru, a darkly handsome, agile, glib-tongued and lady-charming merchant seacaptain (and sometime pirate), who sails The Winsome Lady independent caravel out of Saerloon (and a secret base somewhere in the Pirate Isles). Only a whisker-width behind Artru is Loaros Hammarandar, a broad-shouldered, grim giant of a man who can hurl his prodigious strength and bulk around like an acrobat, and is an ever-wary-of-treachery mercenary warmaster currently under hire by Narubel, who commands "the Swift Sword" cavalry force used to quell bandits and unrest in that city and its surrounding farms (and dedicates himself to quietly eliminating all threats to the current rulership, prosperity, and status quo in Narubel). Close behind Artru and Hammarandar are Skoalam Marlgrask and then Sraece Telthorn. Skoalam Marlgrask is a professional duelist who travels Chessenta as the champion of whomever sponsors him in duels, making huge sums (because everyone locally knows he's "the best" in duels, and so tries to outbid opponents seeking to hire his services) that are usually paid in gems and used by Marlgrask to immediately buy property, notably an ever-expanding string of inns and taverns. Marlgrask is polite, saturnine, nondescript of looks but quietly luxurious of dress, and seems able to sense danger (crossbow snipers, for instance) before it can reach out for him. He's known to be resistant to many natural poisons (having learned this the hard way), but now takes great care regarding what he eats and drinks (hence his purchase of many inns and taverns). Sraece Telthorn is a smallish, agile, almost feminine man who can dance, tumble, balance, and spring with a skill and precision matched only by the greatest acrobats (once leaping off a parapet to land perfectly balanced on a sloping, protruding flagstaff far below, for instance, and often springing over the slashing swords of opponents). He teaches "swordplay" (fencing) in Yhaunn and Waterdeep, and is believed to travel between the two by means of secret portals of unknown origin and location. Telthorn lives simply, is unambitious (avoiding power and important patrons, and giving much of his coins away), and is beloved by many pleasure-lasses of Waterdeep, who regard him as a kind friend or honorary brother as well as a frequent client. I'd put the infamous Artemis Entreri after Telthorn, though I could be persuaded to rank two other male human bladesmen between them: Ulmaer Rivrymm of Sheirtalar (a smiling, wax-mustached man of good nature but lightning-swift reflexes and keen sight, who is personal bodyguard to the Overking of Lapaliiya, and can juggle scimitars to entertain), and Aka 'the Questmaster' (the mysterious sponsor and trainer of adventurers) who dwells, these days, in the wilderlands of the Sword Coast North. If I widen my reply to include human females, two must be inserted: Ember Tsartaera between Hammarandar and Marlgrask, and Lyaunthra Aldegal between Marlgrask and Telthorn. Ember Tsartaera is the tall, cool of manner and sparing of words Knight of Arms (weaponsmaster, or trainer of bodyguards and soldiers) to Lord Albin, ruler of Furthinghome in Aglarond, where she dwells. Ember dresses plainly, lives in spartan surroundings, and is always under iron self-control, keeping to herself and crafting masterwork swords when she's not practising using them or training others to do so; she never raises her voice (though she can be coldly, cuttingly firm), is always alert and anticipating trouble, and has an acrobatic fighting style; she's famous in Furthinghome for catching hurled daggers and arrows in flight. Lyaunthra Aldegal has recently settled in Waterdeep, though she still retains homes in her three previous bases: Silverymoon, Neverwinter, and Secomber. "The Lioness" is a superb maker of bladed weapons and tools (who learned her skills from her now-dead parents), who can resharpen and balance almost any fragment of a mistreated item. She owns and travels between small weapon shops in Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Neverwinter, and Secomber, and specializes in finding just the right weapon for a client, and in weapons-training and -practising with select clients. Known to have ironguard protection afforded by a wearable item (a choker or anklet, most believe), she's also known to be able to withstand great pain, once (in the days before her ironguard protection) slaying a killer who'd put his blade through her hilt-deep, and then (despite being hit by both acid and fire magics) staggering through four rooms to get healing potions, managing to drink them and pluck forth his blade without passing out. Aldegal is a fire-haired, rugged-looking woman who takes numerous lovers, arrives and departs quietly and unexpectedly, and is seldom to be found where one expects to find her. Quite a roster. If I now widen my reply further, to include elves, half-elves, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes (note that I'm still excluding shapechanging races and multi-armed intelligent "monsters"), I'd put Maethrammar Aerasume between Artru and Hammarandar, and Drizzt Do'Urden JUST behind Marlgrask. However, ask me this a year from now (Realms time), and - - even if there haven't been fatalities - - these rankings may have shifted around quite a bit. As I said, among individuals of this skill, determinations are whisker-thin. So saith Ed. So, given the fact I read Ed's archives *A LOT* you might want to hold off on comments like this. But I think part of our discrepancy is the fact that my Realms is just as High Magic as the Forgotten Realms in terms of ABUNDANCE. I'll explain more when I get back.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-22-08, 06:37 PM	I was just about to mention that I remembered seeing Drizzt and Artemis on that list. Happily, though, Ed didn't make Drizzt the #1 swordsman in the Realms. I also agree with Storm that one doesn't need rogue levels to be good at sneaking around, although it does help.
Charles Phipps 02-22-08, 07:30 PM	I think Ed originally imagined the Realms without levels. If you want to know what Ed thinks of the level of his NPCs in the Realms, you should ask him, and not make assumptions like that. Well, you're bluntly wrong to assume I'm basing this on anything other than Ed's comments. One of my favorite moments was where Ed talked about a story that inspired me to make this change. Larloch and his lich minions have no interest in attracting attention that would waste their time and magical resources (and perhaps, if word got around how dangerous they were, even threaten their existence in the face of a concerted attack from various magical power groups working together). Larloch is not interested in ruling Faerun...but he IS interested in creating and controlling a series of magical gates linking many worlds (parallel Prime Material Planes) and Outer Planes...and so rigging their enchantments that anyone using them comes under his control/faces his forceful removal of their magic items, information from their mind, and so forth. The gates are easy for him to create (he licked all of those problems long ago). The control enchantments have been giving him troubles for thousands of years now, and as an obsessive perfectionist, he isn't going to let this rest until he gets everything just so...nor is he going to create the gates until he's ready to put the controls on them. In short, he's a munchkin only if played that way. All Player Characters have to learn sometime that there are folks in the Realms just too powerful to tangle with. I'm reminded of the original Realms campaign, and the Company of Crazed Venturers attacking Shaan the Serpent-Queen (who briefly appeared in a Wizards Three DRAGON article). She was busy working magic on a small island off Mintarn. They attacked, broke her concentration, and she looked up with an irritated frown. They bid her stop, or they'd destroy what she was working on; to demonstrate, one of the Company mages touched (and disintegrated) a stone he was standing beside. She shook her head in derision, and touched the island beneath them, disintegrating IT, and dumping the Company into the chilly sea waves for a long swim...whilst she turned back to her spell casting, floating on nothing and ignoring them once more. A heavy-handed lesson, but...well, Larloch's in the same league, and more. Just consider him a power of the Realms and Don't Go There. Here’s a tiny tidbit more about Larloch and the Mystra’s involvement with him. Bluntly, for me, this made me realize that Epic Levels should be something special. I realized then that Elminster didn't have to be 29th Level to be "The Most Powerful Wizard in the World" (as people knew him) but it was only that they should be demonstratably powerful beyond belief. Thus Elminster and Balrog are pretty evenly matched but in the words of Qui Gon "There's always a bigger fish." IMHO, this is an oxymoron. You want to put the magic back in the Realms, so you take it away. I agree with Dan, I think you threw the baby out with the bathwater on this. Maybe, I'm open to why. Ultimately, I believe the important thing is that the characters are established as having PERSONALITY first and followed by HOW THEY USE THEIR POWER. Compared to the canon Elminster's worst portrayals, really, my Elminster would mop the floor with them. His superior levels would be meaningless to the fact this Elminster would have a gateway to the elemental Plane of Fire with a focusing crystal that annihilates small armies. Bluntly, my magic is just more "magical" because you need exotic components and to use it in unorthodox ways than just being able to cast a spell. Likewise, while +1 weapons are a standard feature for Elves and Dwarves, they're still pretty rare for humans unless they acquire one from said races. Likewise, a +5 Holy Avenger is a legendary object that will have names from it. Certainly, it's as powerful and reverant a thing as a Moonblade. I don't need an artifact because the stuff that exists is IMPORTANT. Magic isn't rare, it's just the high level stuff is impressive. *blinks in astonishment* She FELL? After being the subject of a god swap (with the actual gods doing the swapping), she falls? Unbelievable. I'm going to pretty much ignore your entire post because you seemed to miss that I didn't want to "Ex-Ranger" because it would imply that she screwed up. Instead, I put Fighter because she voluntarolly turned away from Mielikki and became an Aristocrat that worshiped Tymora instead. Likewise, she maintains most of her Woodsey Skills but she's no longer a Spellcaster in my games. Qilue is the pious one, and she is a 16th level Cleric already. The Seven Sisters are often the Six + 1 it seems in my mind. I wouldn't have changed it all the way to CG. He still has enough lawfulness in him, IMHO, that NG would be a more appropriate alignment if you're dead set on "hedonism is chaotic" (and I doubt very much he's a "do as he pleases" kind of person... He is constrained by his role, and it chafes him from time to time, but he still carries out his duty.) Actually, I think it chafes Azoun A LOT. However, his Hedonism is a defiance of his Role. So is his serving as an adventurer. Pretty much I think the entirety of his reign is Vangerdahast trying to reign him in while conducting most of the Realms Day To Day Affairs (I always liken Vangerdahast to Cardinal Richelieu). Azoun is a pretty rotten King in every way but those that count (The Tuigan Horde, scaring Sembians, scaring Zhents, and the Dragon) I just don't see Alusair becoming a "far better diplomat" than her father. I can see her becoming competent, but I can also see her going and finding her one of her Blades so she can punch the living daylights out of him after a day at the office. For me, I think it's sorta Predestined that Alusair will exceed her father in all respects. She just has a better mind for politics than Azoun IV even if she will always be a "slash first, ask questions later type" Must be her mother's blood. Fair enough. She really doesn't have much of a background, aside from what Ed wrote of her in Elminster's Daughter, so she's the easiest to change, IMHO. Having Rogue levels gives her skill points enough to be a very effective spy. (By the way, what knowledge of sneaking about do you need when you can completely change your appearance? Just asking. ) Yes, Vangerdahast just used magic whenever he needed to get some place. Howvever, Caladnei had to improvise. ;-) High Adventure and Epic Grandeur produce retired epic heroes eventually. If you produce a world where there's no high level retired people, it gives us no precedent for High Adventure and Epic Grandeur... All of those high level NPCs you've just knocked down many pegs, EARNED their levels... They all have events and adventures in their history that more than explains how powerful they are. Making them lower level invalidates a lot of their experiences. Actually, I've bluntly established as a point in my notes. "All high level NPCs in Faerun have had many more adventures than the canon ones." For me, I made it a point that anyone who reaches high levels in my Realms is just plain SMARTER and BETTER than the others. Most of the "Slash first" types would never live long enough to reach high levels in my game. Fzoul, Szass, and Manshoon especially are all geniuses who've read the Evil Overlords list. Maybe there are too many Archwizards. But other classes seem to be underrepresented, and, IMHO, "nerfing" them just makes that situation worse. Like I said, the average 616-Mage will wipe the floor with the Faerun counterparts because so many are so badly written. The entire Return of the Archwizards series failed because the heroes would be dead within seconds. Gwydion may only be 15th or so level in my games but he still defeats Dendar the Night Serpent. Overall, I guess what I'm saying is "I haven't decreased the Realms magic. I've increased it's lethality and what Low Levels can accomplish."
GothicDan 02-22-08, 08:08 PM	Well, Charles, I'm not going to tell you how to run your game. But... Well, I would never make FR Eberron. I'd still like a double handful of Epic characters in any setting I made, just because, well, Archmages live for a long time, and are almost invulnerable to non-divine threats, and threats from other Archmages. And Archmages don't readily 'go at each other' a lot, for self-preservation reasons. So, they live for centuries.. Or thousands of years.. And in previous editions, you could gain XP as a Wizard from studying, researching, writing new spellbooks, etc. To me, that's far more logical than gaining XP from throwing fireballs at a dragon... But that's probably the physicist in me. :) Again, I'd up a lot of the levels in Eberron. Actually, I'd probably up the very higher levels, and pretty much keep everything else the same. I wouldn't mind dropping the levels of a lot of the characters you listed, a few points. Elminster? Well, screw the Fighter and Rogue levels. And I'd drop him down to 25th or maybe even lower as a Wizard. The Simbul, for some reason, I see as the iconic "around 30th level spellcaster" in the Realms.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-22-08, 08:11 PM	And in previous editions, you could gain XP as a Wizard from studying, researching, writing new spellbooks, etc. In my opinion, that's how it should always be--the PC can gain XP for accomplishing non-combat feats, or solving problems without resorting to combat. By the way, Charles, I am enjoying reading your take on the Realms and how you run your games. My own take on the Realms is quite different, but if your way works for you, that's all that matters.:)
Charles Phipps 02-22-08, 08:13 PM	Well, Charles, I'm not going to tell you how to run your game. But... Well, I would never make FR Eberron. Eberron has 60th Level Rajahs sleeping, 20th level Daelkyr, 20th level Deathless by the thousands, and god knows what else. Eberron isn't low level by any stretch of the imagination. It's nothing is GOOD. FR is much more balanced where the heroes are expected to be able to stand against the threats against them. My Eberron games are considerably more Cthulhu-esque where the best you can hope it delay the Apocalypse. I'd still like a double handful of Epic characters in any setting I made, just because, well, Archmages live for a long time, and are almost invulnerable to non-divine threats, and threats from other Archmages. And Archmages don't readily 'go at each other' a lot, for self-preservation reasons. So, they live for centuries.. Or thousands of years.. And in previous editions, you could gain XP as a Wizard from studying, researching, writing new spellbooks, etc. To me, that's far more logical than gaining XP from throwing fireballs at a dragon... But that's probably the physicist in me. :) I liken it to Star Wars. The great Jedi Masters (Archmages) are 13th level. They are amongst the most brilliant minds of their generation. A 13th level Magician can shape the course of an army and dominate the nature of a kingdom with his magic. That's just using the canon FR spells. 20th level is Palpatine and Yoda. These are not only the strongest magicians, they are the strongest magicians ever or ever shall be. You have yet to really explain what's changed Flavor Wise and what I'm lacking because the guys are lower level. This is a far cry removed from having no Elminster or Chosen at all. It's just the levels are far more reasonable (in my humble opinion) What's so special about Elminster in a world of 20th levels?
Charles Phipps 02-22-08, 08:15 PM	In my opinion, that's how it should always be--the PC can gain XP for accomplishing non-combat feats, or solving problems without resorting to combat. By the way, Charles, I am enjoying reading your take on the Realms and how you run your games. My own take on the Realms is quite different, but if your way works for you, that's all that matters.:) I'm eager for feedback and criticisms. I'd also love to hear alternatives to how you run your games.
GothicDan 02-22-08, 08:19 PM	You have yet to really explain what's changed Flavor Wise and what I'm lacking because the guys are lower level. This is a far cry removed from having no Elminster or Chosen at all. It's just the levels are far more reasonable (in my humble opinion) What's so special about Elminster in a world of 20th levels? Epic level spells. :) And, again, in my FR world? There wouldn't be 20th level Wizards running around. There would be a good number of 'teen' level wizards, and then Elminster, Epic. I just really like that Epic gulf, that gap in power.
Charles Phipps 02-22-08, 08:25 PM	Epic level spells. :) And, again, in my FR world? There wouldn't be 20th level Wizards running around. There would be a good number of 'teen' level wizards, and then Elminster, Epic. I just really like that Epic gulf, that gap in power. Well, as stated, Elminster can cast Epic Level Magic as part of a Circle. So can Elven High Mages and other circles. I wish I could remember that second edition Priest Spell that allowed Priests to combine to cast spells. That really opened up my games. But yes, basically, I treat Epic differently. Halastar cannot be killed. He does what he wants, when he wants, and pretty much you just have to deal with it. Elminster is the top of "I can still occasionally get into a fight." Mostly out of a nod towards Gandalf. But good point.
GothicDan 02-22-08, 08:55 PM	The Priest spell you're referring to is, I think, "Combine," actually. It was lower-ish level. But yeah, in my world, I'd still use 2E Elven High Magic Rituals anyway, more or less. But as you said, you'd have to retool the 3E magic system to get Elminster access to Epic magic in a Circle - which current Circle rules (the type in the FR book) don't allow. The Simbul should definitely have access to Epic spells, too. She threw a freaking mountain in El in Hell, after all, and that Bloodring spell of hers was awesome. It's beyond 9th level stuff, if you ask me.
Charles Phipps 02-22-08, 09:00 PM	Yeah, oddly, my Faerun was HIGHER LEVEL in many respects during Second Edition. Because Epic Level Magic was AVAILABLE when it was banned in FR by Mystra's decree.
GothicDan 02-22-08, 09:06 PM	Are you referring to True Dweomers? Because those were always allowed. And in Secrets of the Magister, it said that select spellcasters with special permission from Mystra could cast 10th+ level magic spells - true 10th+ level. And the Elves, technically, could even after Netheril's fall. Mm, Elves.
Charles Phipps 02-22-08, 09:10 PM	Bah, Elves are just skinny bunny earred creatures that have no meat on their bones! They're also lazy! LAZY LAZY good for nothings that just sit and drink their fey wine when they're not naping! Plus they order everyone around too! It's like a race of cats! http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/2005/deedlit1yx8.jpg
GothicDan 02-22-08, 09:13 PM	You wonderfully describe the CG Moon Elves. I'm a fan of the LG/LN Sun Elves. They're like LIONS. Strong, lordly, proud, exerting their personal views of seizing freedom over all the land... Oh yeah.
Charles Phipps 02-22-08, 09:51 PM	I'd argue but....yeah, pretty much that's how I play them too. I always like to play up a subversion of stereotype. The Gold Elves are the most frequent villains in Elvish plays, however, they're also usually the only elves in Faerun whom have any real AMBITION. There's a reason most elvish HEROES are Gold Elves. I very much stick to the stereotype of gentry-peasant for the two Elven races (with the exception of the Royal Family of Evermeet).
GothicDan 02-23-08, 08:43 AM	Okay, Charles. You're a good guy. Even if the River Styx circles the Underworld Nine times. ;)
Charles Phipps 02-23-08, 09:01 AM	I actually broached that interpretation with a professor in my Renassiance literature class. The guy said something akin to "That's a very good interpretation but....wow...." then rolled his eyes a bit. :cool: Oh well. ;)
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-23-08, 02:00 PM	Bah, Elves are just skinny bunny earred creatures that have no meat on their bones! They're also lazy! LAZY LAZY good for nothings that just sit and drink their fey wine when they're not naping! Plus they order everyone around too! It's like a race of cats! http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/2005/deedlit1yx8.jpg She can be my familiar any day. So about that Sarrukh entry.....
GothicDan 02-23-08, 02:08 PM	I actually broached that interpretation with a professor in my Renassiance literature class. The guy said something akin to "That's a very good interpretation but....wow...." then rolled his eyes a bit. Oh well. Yeah. There was very much the same reaction from my Classics professor, and everyone who had read the Inferno while translating the Aeneid. My professor totally scoffed at anyone not accepting the idea that the Inferno was largely based on Book 6 of the Aeneid. I mean, we just read the part of the Underworld that people who committed suicide went to! My professor rocks. He got his doctorate from Princeton, and I just picked up a book he wrote - "Hegemony and Greek Historians," by John Wickersham.
Khaelieth 02-23-08, 02:16 PM	Mind you, that picture doesn't represent how i view elves, and those ears... WoW has a LOT to answer for. But tbh, i always play a Gold Elf if i can. Gold Elf wizard's who then go on to Olin Gisir or Loremaster (or both!), or any elfie spellswordish PrC rock! Sorry for not using capital i's, my i button's gone and i'm using ctrl-v ;p
GothicDan 02-23-08, 02:19 PM	I too have experienced the horror of not having proper keys. It sucks mightily.
Khaelieth 02-23-08, 02:41 PM	it does! Ripped it out by accident when i was drunk :(
Charles Phipps 02-23-08, 03:38 PM	My professor rocks. He got his doctorate from Princeton, and I just picked up a book he wrote - "Hegemony and Greek Historians," by John Wickersham. Actually, no, he said that the idea was silly. Of course, neither of us argued that there wasn't a clear influence but the very fact you continue to maintain that the similarities are anything more than superficial just makes us look at you like you've grown another head. But, I'm not going to respond to you about this anymore in a thread about my homeworld. I understand where you're coming from, I just don't think it's nearly the influence you think it is.
GothicDan 02-23-08, 04:59 PM	Note that I was being mostly jocular just now. I wasn't trying to reopen the can of worms, though in hindsight perhaps I shouldn't have tried to joke around with it at all. Anyway, bravo for putting so much concentrated effort in bringing aspects of your world to the board. I could never sustain this much attention for this long. :)
Storm_Silverhand 02-23-08, 05:56 PM	Heya, Just want to say that for some reason I've been very touchy lately, and I hope that I really haven't come across as obnoxious about all this. If I have, I must apologize. :( Well, you're bluntly wrong to assume I'm basing this on anything other than Ed's comments. One of my favorite moments was where Ed talked about a story that inspired me to make this change. Well I was wrong to make the assertion I did (about you making assumptions). Obviously, you and I would have read that passage you quoted from Ed differently. I don't feel any overwhelming urge to "nerf" important NPCs, and going by my pattern of gaming, I actually like high level NPCs in games. (For instance: I just statted out Tallea Firedreak a CG 4 Clr/4 Sor/6 MyT, and Fey Singingbrook, a LE 7 Ftr/9 Blk, yesterday for my homebrewed world, then pitted them in a contest of wills on paper so I could work out what the results would be in the game when the former tried to redeem the latter going by the rules in BoED - because this happens off camera to the PCs) This is because it gives the world a more "lived in" feel for me... Also, I find that giving long lived NPCs low levels just makes no sense at all. Long life leads to many experiences, which is what an NPC's level is a reflection of. It makes no sense to me that someone who is over 1600 years old would only be level 20... When, in an average DnD game, I can get a character to level 20 within a real time year, and that might be within 5 game years. This is actually a weakness of a level based system, and what you're doing is overcompensating, I think. But that is just my opinion, obviously you're not going to agree, and it's your game so... What I say really has no relevance. :) I do agree that Epic levels need to be special, but I think they're special enough without a blanket tinker to reduce everyone's level. (This is also how I feel about the Raise Dead line of spells - they're already difficult to come by due to the cost and level needed to cast them, there's no need to make them even harder to get.) Maybe, I'm open to why. Ultimately, I believe the important thing is that the characters are established as having PERSONALITY first and followed by HOW THEY USE THEIR POWER. Compared to the canon Elminster's worst portrayals, really, my Elminster would mop the floor with them. His superior levels would be meaningless to the fact this Elminster would have a gateway to the elemental Plane of Fire with a focusing crystal that annihilates small armies. There is no reason why a level 30 character can't have a personality, and there's no reason why a level 30 character might not choose to be very circumspect with his or her power. Just because you can open up a rift to Hell doesn't mean you're going to ignore the consequences and just do it. A higher level character is even more aware of the consequences than a lower level character. (My PC in one game has taken on an ex-Red Wizard Evocator as an apprentice, and one of the tenants she's trying to teach her is this: "Why cast a fireball, when a charm person would do?") Your Elminster would still be soundly beaten by the Canon Elminster if played correctly - simply because there's no way to bridge the level difference... I am not really sure what you're getting at with the elemental fire gateway and focusing crystal... but if you're implying access to magical items makes a difference, then you're forgetting that an NPC should only have access to a certain amount of equipment based on their level, and if they have access to more equipment than their level, you need to take that into account and bump up their CR. Likewise, while +1 weapons are a standard feature for Elves and Dwarves, they're still pretty rare for humans unless they acquire one from said races. Likewise, a +5 Holy Avenger is a legendary object that will have names from it. Certainly, it's as powerful and reverant a thing as a Moonblade. I agree with you that some items, like a +5 Holy Avenger, need to be rare and special. They need as much background and history as NPCs, and they need names. But the Forgotten Realms is not a low magic world, and I would expect that there are some item types that are pretty mundane - like the +1 weapons you mention. There are enough mages in the world of all levels to justify it too... (Tangent: Oooh, there's an interesting thought - magical items that are spontaneously created in areas of high magic, I wonder how that would work as a concept? I might try and incorporate that idea into my homebrew...) You then go on to say this: I don't need an artifact because the stuff that exists is IMPORTANT. Magic isn't rare, it's just the high level stuff is impressive. Bolding is mine, of course... So either magic is rare or it's not. You need to make up your mind. A +1 weapon being rare for a human means that magic is rare, since humans are one of the most populous of races. Humans have produced just as many mages and artificers as any other race, possibly more due to the fact that they breed like rabbits by comparison. Human empires in the past have been exceedingly strong magically - just take Netheril and Imaskar (not sure on the spelling here) for examples. Modern examples are places like Halruaa and Thay. And Thay has made an effort to make cheap magical items and sell them to anyone who will buy from them (usually to get a political hook into the country they're in by making people come to them for magical items, and drugs and other darker things.) Not everyone is going to actually own a magical item, but I think nearly everyone will see at least one in action in their lifetime. I'm going to pretty much ignore your entire post because you seemed to miss that I didn't want to "Ex-Ranger" because it would imply that she screwed up. Instead, I put Fighter because she voluntarolly turned away from Mielikki and became an Aristocrat that worshiped Tymora instead. Likewise, she maintains most of her Woodsey Skills but she's no longer a Spellcaster in my games. Changing her class like that means she looses the special abilities of a Ranger, not to mention the large number of skill points and class skills, and also her hit dice change. That's a pretty hard change to explain away by saying she turned away from being a Ranger. She needs the ex-Ranger levels because she wouldn't just forget everything she learned to become a Fighter. It just doesn't make sense. That's all I'll say on that for now. I'm sure you realize by now that I don't like what you've done to Myrmeen. :) The Seven Sisters are often the Six + 1 it seems in my mind. Poor Qilue. :( For me, I think it's sorta Predestined that Alusair will exceed her father in all respects. She just has a better mind for politics than Azoun IV even if she will always be a "slash first, ask questions later type" Must be her mother's blood. Then might I suggest that you have her become Queen? That way she really will exceed him in all respects... Have the next Azoun die of a fever in his childhood, or even have him assassinated like Foril. IMHO, she'll make a far more interesting Queen than her nephew as King. Yes, Vangerdahast just used magic whenever he needed to get some place. Howvever, Caladnei had to improvise. ;-) Heh. :) Well her use of magical disguise has actually been established. I suggest you look at her description in Troy Denning's Return of the Archwizards series, and then compare it to her description in Ed Greenwood's Eliminster's Daughter. But I like the idea of sneaky spy Caladnei, even if I won't incorporate that idea into my Realms. ;) Overall, I guess what I'm saying is "I haven't decreased the Realms magic. I've increased it's lethality and what Low Levels can accomplish." You've changed the level of magic in the world, firmly establishing the Realms as a low magic version. That's all I see being the result of your changes. One of the things that made the Realms stand out for me is that it is a high magic world.
Charles Phipps 02-23-08, 06:37 PM	It makes no sense to me that someone who is over 1600 years old would only be level 20... When, in an average DnD game, I can get a character to level 20 within a real time year, and that might be within 5 game years. Yes, and PCs are special. A person whose ten thousand years old may never actually reach level sixteen because the knowledge simply doesn't exist for him to test himself to that level. Elminster is 1600 years old but his ability to think is simply beyond what mortals could ever achieve with an eternity of study. That's why he's twentieth level. The absolute highest that anyone could ever reasonably hope to comprehend. Beyond twentieth level is just....well, it's something a mortal can't concieve of the power of. It's why Halastar is mad, really. He had to be mad to see beyond human limitations. This is actually a weakness of a level based system, and what you're doing is overcompensating, I think. But that is just my opinion, obviously you're not going to agree, and it's your game so... What I say really has no relevance. You're making a very good point, actually. However, I think you need to put yourself in the understanding that 20th level is astoundingly powerful. The flavor text is one that is built around this idea and that's what makes it so. 20th level is enough to make gods fear you, even though you aren't able to face them directly. There is no reason why a level 30 character can't have a personality, and there's no reason why a level 30 character might not choose to be very circumspect with his or her power. Just because you can open up a rift to Hell doesn't mean you're going to ignore the consequences and just do it. A higher level character is even more aware of the consequences than a lower level character. (My PC in one game has taken on an ex-Red Wizard Evocator as an apprentice, and one of the tenants she's trying to teach her is this: "Why cast a fireball, when a charm person would do?") Well, like I said, with 4E all of my hard work will probably be for nothing and we'll simply go back to the original Realms as 30th level will no longer be unreasonable for player characters to achieve in their lifetimes. I'll keep all the original stats for everyone though from 3E. Your Elminster would still be soundly beaten by the Canon Elminster if played correctly - simply because there's no way to bridge the level difference... I am not really sure what you're getting at with the elemental fire gateway and focusing crystal... but if you're implying access to magical items makes a difference, then you're forgetting that an NPC should only have access to a certain amount of equipment based on their level, and if they have access to more equipment than their level, you need to take that into account and bump up their CR. Part of the issue is that levels are only a small part of my game. I remember how one of my fellow DM players refused to talk to me because I once described a game where the PCs were supposed to sneak onboard a Beholder Spelljammer Fleet and use Fireball Crystals to blow up the Spelljammer Hulls and thus slay them all. He was angry because it utterly violated the spirit of the rules. In this case, the player characters slaying probably dozens of beholders and thousands of slaves by plot device rather than straight up combat. I encourage my player characters to utilize alternative solutions and non-linear thinking to deal with problems rather than "point/slash." Obviously, I didn't give them the full EXP value for slaying them all :p And CR doesn't really have a relevance to levels. My Elminster is 20th level but he can pull out the Sword of Plotdevice and kill canon-Elminster because I don't think that he'd be stupid enough to trade spells. Their CR would be far higher than the levels I gave them. Elminster still has all his Chosen Abilities and the Silver Fire. But one of the most famous quotes I ever had from Elminster was like your above Magic statement. Elminster on why he uses PCs: Listen, boy, how do you think I got as old as I am? BY *AVOIDING* fights! I agree with you that some items, like a +5 Holy Avenger, need to be rare and special. They need as much background and history as NPCs, and they need names. But the Forgotten Realms is not a low magic world, and I would expect that there are some item types that are pretty mundane - like the +1 weapons you mention. There are enough mages in the world of all levels to justify it too... (Tangent: Oooh, there's an interesting thought - magical items that are spontaneously created in areas of high magic, I wonder how that would work as a concept? I might try and incorporate that idea into my homebrew...) As I established, almost every elf in Faerun has a +1 Sword and every Dwarf has a similiar enchanted weapon. However, humans mostly make due with their regular weaponry and acquiring a magic sword is an edge in combat that a lot wish to do. Elves, for the most part, object to seeing their weapons in the hands of human beings. So either magic is rare or it's not. You need to make up your mind. A +1 weapon being rare for a human means that magic is rare, since humans are one of the most populous of races. Humans have produced just as many mages and artificers as any other race, possibly more due to the fact that they breed like rabbits by comparison. Human empires in the past have been exceedingly strong magically - just take Netheril and Imaskar (not sure on the spelling here) for examples. Modern examples are places like Halruaa and Thay. And Thay has made an effort to make cheap magical items and sell them to anyone who will buy from them (usually to get a political hook into the country they're in by making people come to them for magical items, and drugs and other darker things.) Not everyone is going to actually own a magical item, but I think nearly everyone will see at least one in action in their lifetime. Magic isn't rare, magical items for humans are rare. Magical EFFECTS are common. Amongst Elves, Wizards are about as common as Doctors. Amongst Dwarves, Spell Casting Priests are about as common as Lawyers. Amongst humans, spell casters are about as common as professional athletes. Hardly unheard of but we're not talking "Song of Fire and Ice" rare. Note, that this is also not the case in Halruaa and Thay. However, there's a reason this isn't the case elsewhere. One of the reasons the Zhentariam are TERRIFYING is that they have an entire troop of wizards. Likewise, Cormyr's War Wizards make their armies pretty much invincible as far as everyone is concerned. They're the guys with the artillery. 30th level doesn't exist because really, past 21st, you pretty much become unstatable. "You win" is the answer to combat. Changing her class like that means she looses the special abilities of a Ranger, not to mention the large number of skill points and class skills, and also her hit dice change. That's a pretty hard change to explain away by saying she turned away from being a Ranger. She needs the ex-Ranger levels because she wouldn't just forget everything she learned to become a Fighter. It just doesn't make sense. Or I can make a DM's note that says "Can take Ranger Skill levels at Class Costs." :-) She also has high intelligence. Then might I suggest that you have her become Queen? That way she really will exceed him in all respects... Have the next Azoun die of a fever in his childhood, or even have him assassinated like Foril. IMHO, she'll make a far more interesting Queen than her nephew as King. Well, we haven't gotten to that point in our games. However, 100 years ago one of the PCs was Alusair's official consort (she kept her harem and Caladnei). However, it's a long standing joke that Azoun V was a great warrior but an even lousier king than his grandfather. Spoilers for The_Mess and other members of the group Ultimately, Floril is going to going to die of consumption egged on by his Cormaeril wife (with Talona's help). That will leave Alusair's grand-daughter Alyson and her Court Wizard husband Cassius in Arabel (Vangerdahast/Lha's descendent) to claim the throne. The marriage is one of conveyance since Alyson prefers girls while Cass is a rake but the succession is secure. His Cormaeril wife is going to claim the throne in the name of her scandalously new husband whom is the father of her current unborn child that she claims is Florils. It's a War of the Roses/Song of Fire and Ice type deal. The PCs will be involved because the Cormaeril wife is a PC's daughter and Alyson is another PCs granddaughter. Of course, Queen Alyson is the best woman for the job. Heh. Well her use of magical disguise has actually been established. I suggest you look at her description in Troy Denning's Return of the Archwizards series, and then compare it to her description in Ed Greenwood's Eliminster's Daughter. But I like the idea of sneaky spy Caladnei, even if I won't incorporate that idea into my Realms. Don't worry, she has it. You've changed the level of magic in the world, firmly establishing the Realms as a low magic version. That's all I see being the result of your changes. Weird, I consider my Realms Medium to Low High Magic. After all, Elminster is still the greatest mage to walk the Earth. Edited: Whoops, I forgot the first half of the post, the first time I posted this.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-23-08, 08:24 PM	I'm eager for feedback and criticisms. I'd also love to hear alternatives to how you run your games. Well, I wouldn't want to hijack your thread.:) But I'll keep reading this one and commenting when I see fit to.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-23-08, 08:25 PM	Bah, Elves are just skinny bunny earred creatures that have no meat on their bones! They're also lazy! LAZY LAZY good for nothings that just sit and drink their fey wine when they're not naping! Plus they order everyone around too! It's like a race of cats! Hardly a bad thing, in my humble opinion.;)
Khaelieth 02-23-08, 08:27 PM	Hardly a bad thing, in my humble opinion.;) Heh. Finally managed to pronounce your name=) And Elves aren't lazy either! And cats rock, but you get toxoplasma gondii from 'em. Dirty things.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-23-08, 08:29 PM	And cats rock, but you get toxoplasma gondii from 'em. Dirty things. No, they wash themselves constantly.:) With their spit, but it works.
Khaelieth 02-23-08, 08:32 PM	No, they wash themselves constantly.:) With their spit, but it works. i doubt they lick their intestines=)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-23-08, 08:37 PM	You wonderfully describe the CG Moon Elves. I'm a fan of the LG/LN Sun Elves. They're like LIONS. Strong, lordly, proud, exerting their personal views of seizing freedom over all the land... Oh yeah. From what I understand, lions spend much of their time resting or asleep, as well.:)
Charles Phipps 02-23-08, 08:44 PM	Yes, well I'm known for missing the point of a lot of character classes and races. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f350/Willowhugger/suzuka_22.jpg Bunny Shifter on my version of Eberron: Hmmmm? But yes, I tend to keep Gold Elves as still Chaotic Good in my games. They're really only hyper-traditionalist and pro-active by degree. The Gold Elves want to keep the Elven Line Pure, They Swagger A lot, and they are tremendously ambitious while focused on Tradition to the exclusion of all elves. However, the majority of them tend to still be a bunch of guys who spend 90% of their time relaxing and don't give much of a :censored: about a formal legal code or handling their day by any stretch other than minute by minute. The idea of trying to make a human level coherent doctrine of Corellon Latherian's Doctrine of Lawful Goodness is pretty much impossible. Corellon Latherian's doctrine amounts to "Be cool and don't take any :censored: from Orcs or Drow." LG and LN Gold Elves are sort of embarrassments for the race, sort of the equivalent of rampaging religious fanatics even if most of them are more tolerant than the vast majority of humans will ever be. It's just they get prickly on just SOME issues.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-23-08, 08:49 PM	By the way, Charles, it's "Foril", not "Floril".
Charles Phipps 02-23-08, 08:57 PM	By the way, Charles, it's "Foril", not "Floril". Clearly, a misprint in canon.
Charles Phipps 02-23-08, 09:12 PM	http://hyboria.xoth.net/gods/good_gods.htm Bizarrely, I often think of this essay when I think of how I want to run my Forgotten Realms. The gods of good are very much pro-active in the games but I try and reign back their antics and the power of good to effect evil. The forces are fairly evenly matched in the Forgotten Realms with perhaps a slight advantage towards the Powers of DarknessTM. There's no happy endings or safety nets in the Realms of canon. It's even moreso in my games. Elminster would have a few days long battle with Errtu that he'd possibly die in if it ever came down to it. I guess I partially resent the idea it's "Low" fantasy though because magical items are ridiculously common by comparison to something like J.R.R Tolkien, the Hyborean Age, La Morte De Arthur, or A Song of Fire and Ice. However, I definitely note that magic is rarer than it is on Eberron. No one uses Magic as Technology except the now-deceased Halruuans in the Forgotten Realms. Magic is SPECIAL and the idea of treating it as a commodity like the Thayans is just repulsive to me because a Wand of Fireballs can turn the tide in a war. That's why I term it "Medium-Magic"
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-23-08, 09:44 PM	http://hyboria.xoth.net/gods/good_gods.htm Bizarrely, I often think of this essay when I think of how I want to run my Forgotten Realms. The gods of good are very much pro-active in the games but I try and reign back their antics and the power of good to effect evil. The forces are fairly evenly matched in the Forgotten Realms with perhaps a slight advantage towards the Powers of DarknessTM. There's no happy endings or safety nets in the Realms of canon. It's even moreso in my games. Elminster would have a few days long battle with Errtu that he'd possibly die in if it ever came down to it. I guess I partially resent the idea it's "Low" fantasy though because magical items are ridiculously common by comparison to something like J.R.R Tolkien, the Hyborean Age, La Morte De Arthur, or A Song of Fire and Ice. However, I definitely note that magic is rarer than it is on Eberron. No one uses Magic as Technology except the now-deceased Halruuans in the Forgotten Realms. Magic is SPECIAL and the idea of treating it as a commodity like the Thayans is just repulsive to me because a Wand of Fireballs can turn the tide in a war. That's why I term it "Medium-Magic" It wouldn't surprise me if Elminster got into a fight like that. After Mystra dies he effectively becomes mortal; wishes and other such life extensions can only delay the approach of death. I see Elminster going out in a fight to save the Realms rather than dying of old age (he would probably prefer the old age, but when its required Im sure he would still go out fighting some demon prince/ archdevil/ lich/ whatever else). What is the status of Errtu in FR-616?
Charles Phipps 02-23-08, 10:06 PM	Errtu-616 Lord of the Festering Swamps of Rot and Decay Errtu is one of the Lords of the 663-669 Layers of the Abyss (the number of layers tend to shift between this number). It is an incredibly impressive position for one of the 66 Balor that exist in the Multiverse. Errtu is one of the few Balor who do not pay their services to one of the reigning Demon Lords of the exemplar plane of Chaotic Evil. Errtu rules the 221st Layer of the Abyss (the aforementioned Festering Swamps of Rot and Decay). Errtu managed to seize the plane from Tsuggtmoy, Demon Queen of Fungi. So far, that Demon Lord has not attempted to seize the layer back from him and he's privately considering invading the 220th Layer of the Abyss in order to seize the former Realm of Bhaal the Destroyer. Errtu is a die-hard Blood Warrior and fancies himself the greatest general that the Abyss has to offer. In truth, Errtu is not a particularly noteworthy example of the Balor species unlike the General of Generals Lungorthin or Gothmog the Flame of Udun. Errtu is a more "middle of the road" type Balor that is neither poorly established nor terrifyingly potent amongst his kind. Instead, he is largely left to his own devices because there are bigger fish to fry than the ruler of a infinite mushroom covered bog that isn't that impressive to begin with. Errtu did not crawl his way up from a Mane in the layers of Tsuggtmoy's realm without a lack of ambition, however. He is a strategic player of the Blood War and one of the many whom have decided that the final battle will be fought with the use of materials from the Prime Material Plane. Thus, Errtu frequently :censored: out his Demons to the service of Wizards in order to accumulate favors and magical items. The destruction of the Crystal Shard has demoralized Errtu somewhat along with the realization he's going to be trapped on the Abyss for the better part of the next century. Rather than risk another disastrous defeat at the hands of Drizzt, he's instead returned to artifact hunting and has his minions scouring Faerun and other worlds for objects like the Rod of Seven Parts or the Hand of Vecna. Errtu hasn't quite acknowledged the end of the Blood War with the ascension of Asmodeus and the restructuring of the Planes. Indeed, he's unlikely to stop fighting against the Baatezu until he realizes it will win him no further acclaim from the many lesser demons that he must impress to keep his position in the Abyss. Errtu is powerful Demonic figure but one that is easilly bullied or manipulated by the gods and Demon lords above him. He craves, more than anything, the chance to prove his character against them and rise to genuine power in the Abyss' six hundred and sixty six layers (unaware or unwilling to acknowledge that every step he takes will only make more enemies). It is likely he will try some grandiose scheme like moving Abeir-Toril into his layer of the Abyss, gathering the artifacts to transform himself into a full Demon Lord, or attempt to achive godhood in the near future. Players should be warned of interfering in Errtu's schemes because the Balor's pride is a very fragile thing. Unlike most Demon Lords whom will accept the failure of a scheme as "the price of doing business." Errtu will wreck crude and repulsive forms of revenge on player characters if they cross him while chasing down the 'insects' with his minions like they were the most important people in the world.
GothicDan 02-23-08, 10:34 PM	However, the majority of them tend to still be a bunch of guys who spend 90% of their time relaxing and don't give much of a about a formal legal code or handling their day by any stretch other than minute by minute. The idea of trying to make a human level coherent doctrine of Corellon Latherian's Doctrine of Lawful Goodness is pretty much impossible. Corellon Latherian's doctrine amounts to "Be cool and don't take any from Orcs or Drow." LG and LN Gold Elves are sort of embarrassments for the race, sort of the equivalent of rampaging religious fanatics even if most of them are more tolerant than the vast majority of humans will ever be. It's just they get prickly on just SOME issues. In 2E, Feywarders (Specialty Priests of Corellon) could specifically be Lawful Good. I think that's saying something. :) The Srinshee was (originally) a LN Gold Elf and Eltargrim was a LG Gold Elf, and, well, those are two of my favorite NPCs. :) I've worked specifically on showing a Lawful version of Corellon's faith that the Sun Elves could follow - namely, they make their choices MEAN something. Corellon gave us choice, and it's blasphemy to squander that away by making it meaningless in application.
GothicDan 02-23-08, 10:36 PM	From what I understand, lions spend much of their time resting or asleep, as well. Well, yeah. After the kingdom is secured! :)
Charles Phipps 02-23-08, 10:45 PM	In 2E, Feywarders (Specialty Priests of Corellon) could specifically be Lawful Good. I think that's saying something. Yep, Corellon couldn't care less what his priests do. The Srinshee was (originally) a LN Gold Elf and Eltargrim was a LG Gold Elf, and, well, those are two of my favorite NPCs. Communion Spell The Srinshee: Oh Mighty Corellon, Father of the Elves, Host of Holies. I ask unto thee, what should we do to achieve greater enlightenment of thy glories? Corellon: I dunno.....dance or drink wine or something....yeah a party sounds cool. The Srinshee: I'm sorry, what was that? Corellon: Hold on, playing Harp. I've almost got the song down I want....gimme a century. *click* The Srinshee: :blink: I've worked specifically on showing a Lawful version of Corellon's faith that the Sun Elves could follow - namely, they make their choices MEAN something. Corellon gave us choice, and it's blasphemy to squander that away by making it meaningless in application. I understand that. However, it's canonical in my games that the aspect of Lathander that is Corellon is pretty much the embodiment of "Do as you please, so long as no one loses an eye." It's a running gag that the people who struggle the hardest to reach Corellon or achieve something in his name are the ones who are furthest from him. Corellon created the elves to do their own thing. Sort of like Crom and the Cimmerians. I figure that makes for a more interesting Seldarine. Of course, this might have been different centuries back. Of course, because of the Forgotten Realms comics, I altered Labelas Enoreth into a LN/LG Deity. The Seldarine isn't completely CG in my Realms and it makes for a more dynamic pantheon in my opinion. Frankly, Labelas has a problem with a race that's pretty much the exemplar race of Good Chaos. I'd be happy to share my Labelas Enoreth if you like. I have a creator race article to do first, though. (Anymore requests?)
GothicDan 02-23-08, 10:49 PM	Labelas is the one member of the Seldarine I like as much, if not more than, Corellon. I'd love to see him - and I've also made him more Lawful in my interpretation, too. I'm tempted to split him into LG (past), NG (present), CG (future). I like Corellon being laidback as you said - it helps to allow Gold Elves to be MORE Lawful, in my opinion. :) To his Lawful clergy, I'd portray him as being more cryptic than hippie, though. Different strokes for different folks/clerics!
Storm_Silverhand 02-24-08, 05:45 PM	Heya, Yes, and PCs are special. A person whose ten thousand years old may never actually reach level sixteen because the knowledge simply doesn't exist for him to test himself to that level. Elminster is 1600 years old but his ability to think is simply beyond what mortals could ever achieve with an eternity of study. That's why he's twentieth level. The absolute highest that anyone could ever reasonably hope to comprehend. Beyond twentieth level is just....well, it's something a mortal can't concieve of the power of. It's why Halastar is mad, really. He had to be mad to see beyond human limitations. Lets just say I don't agree, except on the PCs being special. Some DMs still artificially slow down the leveling rate of the PCs. I have heard of games that literally take years to reach level 10. Which is all right, I suppose, whatever floats that group's collective boats. In that scenario, it makes sense for NPCs to level slower still. But if you're part of a group that takes, say, a year to get to 40, and that's over 5 game years, then, IMHO, you need to tinker with the NPCs to make them level similarly fast. I suppose I'm just really keen on fairness and consistency. I take the attitude that NPCs are PCs with the DM as a player (different from the dreaded DMPC, though, which is the gaming equivalent to a Mary Sue/Gary Stu), and so the same rules apply to them... Because if that isn't the case, then there is the temptation to run NPCs to a different set of rules, including fudging and adding stuff to them which PCs can't get... Which used to happen a lot in 2nd Edition. I have heard vague rumors that they're going back to the old "different rules apply" method, and that's one aspect of 4th Edition I'm not sure I'm happy with. You're making a very good point, actually. However, I think you need to put yourself in the understanding that 20th level is astoundingly powerful. The flavor text is one that is built around this idea and that's what makes it so. It is. But just because there are a lot of level 20 and higher NPCs running around in the Realms doesn't mean that your every day commoner NPC is going to encounter them daily, weekly, monthly, or even one in their lifetime. Those NPCs are cheerfully working on their own business, and in many cases balancing each other out - which is good for the world because it's not being destroyed every weekend (though judging for the propensity of RSEs from the novel department, perhaps not). Removing those NPCs completely changes the flavour of the Realms. It would be like taking Gandalf and Sauron out of Lord of the Rings. 20th level is enough to make gods fear you, even though you aren't able to face them directly. Dragonlance. Nuff said. Well, like I said, with 4E all of my hard work will probably be for nothing and we'll simply go back to the original Realms as 30th level will no longer be unreasonable for player characters to achieve in their lifetimes. I'll keep all the original stats for everyone though from 3E. PCs can achieve level 30 in DnD already - it's called Epic Level Rules. All they're doing in 4th Edition is incorporating those rules in the the PHB and DMG. Part of the issue is that levels are only a small part of my game. I remember how one of my fellow DM players refused to talk to me because I once described a game where the PCs were supposed to sneak onboard a Beholder Spelljammer Fleet and use Fireball Crystals to blow up the Spelljammer Hulls and thus slay them all. He was angry because it utterly violated the spirit of the rules. In this case, the player characters slaying probably dozens of beholders and thousands of slaves by plot device rather than straight up combat. I encourage my player characters to utilize alternative solutions and non-linear thinking to deal with problems rather than "point/slash." Obviously, I didn't give them the full EXP value for slaying them all :p Of course not. But hopefully you still did give them extra ad hoc XP for coming up with such a solution (a fair amount based on the challenge rating of their alternative solution, which doesn't mean an equal amount to killing each beholder individually since they didn't really encounter them all, if that makes sense). By not doing so, you're kind of punishing them for approaching the game from a different position than hack and slash. And CR doesn't really have a relevance to levels. My Elminster is 20th level but he can pull out the Sword of Plotdevice and kill canon-Elminster because I don't think that he'd be stupid enough to trade spells. Their CR would be far higher than the levels I gave them. Elminster still has all his Chosen Abilities and the Silver Fire. But one of the most famous quotes I ever had from Elminster was like your above Magic statement. Elminster on why he uses PCs: Listen, boy, how do you think I got as old as I am? BY *AVOIDING* fights! Canon Elminster is just as capable of wielding Plot Device as a weapon... When written in a novel. Playing in a game, plot device is a very poor way of doing things, IMHO. As I mentioned before, I'm a big fan of PCs and NPCs obeying the same rules. But yes, Canon Elminster probably avoided fights too... But he would have come up with innovative and creative solutions to problems that would have earned him a similar amount of experience over time. As I established, almost every elf in Faerun has a +1 Sword and every Dwarf has a similiar enchanted weapon. However, humans mostly make due with their regular weaponry and acquiring a magic sword is an edge in combat that a lot wish to do. Elves, for the most part, object to seeing their weapons in the hands of human beings. What makes you think humans are incapable of enchanting weapons? In my opinion, of all the races, they're the ones most likely to do so. Elves and Dwarves might spend years perfecting a single weapon, and it will be a work of art and probably enchanted just by dint of the way they do things, but Humans would take a more utilitarian approach and perfect a weapon in a shorter amount of time, and add a magical ritual that will enchant a bunch of weapons all at once. We are the ones who came up with the idea of factories, after all. Which is why Thayans churning out low level magic items by the ton makes sense. It will make even more sense in 4th Edition, when the xp requirement for enchanting an item will be removed. (I'm not sure what it will be replaced with, though.) Magic isn't rare, magical items for humans are rare. Magical EFFECTS are common. I don't see the difference. Amongst Elves, Wizards are about as common as Doctors. Amongst Dwarves, Spell Casting Priests are about as common as Lawyers. Amongst humans, spell casters are about as common as professional athletes. Hardly unheard of but we're not talking "Song of Fire and Ice" rare. Note, that this is also not the case in Halruaa and Thay. However, there's a reason this isn't the case elsewhere. One of the reasons the Zhentariam are TERRIFYING is that they have an entire troop of wizards. Likewise, Cormyr's War Wizards make their armies pretty much invincible as far as everyone is concerned. They're the guys with the artillery. And why wouldn't these human nations produce magical weapons of their own? Which is what you have basically implied. Having magical items would give them an edge that would be stupid to pass up, IMHO. 30th level doesn't exist because really, past 21st, you pretty much become unstatable. "You win" is the answer to combat. Have you ever actually played an epic game using the ELH? Or I can make a DM's note that says "Can take Ranger Skill levels at Class Costs." :-) She also has high intelligence. Yes, but Rangers get (6+Int)x4 at 1st level, compared to Fighters who get (2+Int)x4... That's quite a big difference... If Myrmeen had 18 intelligence that would be the difference between 44 skill points at 1st level and 28 skill points at 1st level (she gets an extra four points at 1st level for being human, which I incorporated in my figures). Therefore she would loose a significant amount of skill points in the transition from Ranger to Fighter, plus many non-skill based abilities as a Ranger (combat style, tracking without penalty, being able to move through the bush unhindered, etc) which wouldn't really make sense. They're the sort of things that once you learn them, you don't forget... Like riding a bicycle. Well, we haven't gotten to that point in our games. However, 100 years ago one of the PCs was Alusair's official consort (she kept her harem and Caladnei). However, it's a long standing joke that Azoun V was a great warrior but an even lousier king than his grandfather. A harem and Caladnei as well as a consort, hmm? *chuckles* Busy girl. ;) What did the PC consort think of that? TGHotR and 4th Ed Realms seem to be setting up Azoun V as a great king, so obviously your Realms is going to differ there. (Which I don't have a problem with, I'm in a quandary what to do with Azoun V in my Realms - maybe the nobles will learn who his father was, and someone'll take matters into their own hands and kill him before he can ascend the throne... Then I'll have to come up with Alusair's heir... hmm...) Spoilers for The_Mess and other members of the group Ultimately, Floril is going to going to die of consumption egged on by his Cormaeril wife (with Talona's help). That will leave Alusair's grand-daughter Alyson and her Court Wizard husband Cassius in Arabel (Vangerdahast/Lha's descendent) to claim the throne. The marriage is one of conveyance since Alyson prefers girls while Cass is a rake but the succession is secure. His Cormaeril wife is going to claim the throne in the name of her scandalously new husband whom is the father of her current unborn child that she claims is Florils. It's a War of the Roses/Song of Fire and Ice type deal. The PCs will be involved because the Cormaeril wife is a PC's daughter and Alyson is another PCs granddaughter. Of course, Queen Alyson is the best woman for the job. Interesting plot there. :) I like it a lot. :) Still, Alusair can't exceed her father in all things if she's never the Queen... that would be "exceed her father in all things but one." :) Weird, I consider my Realms Medium to Low High Magic. After all, Elminster is still the greatest mage to walk the Earth. Edited: Whoops, I forgot the first half of the post, the first time I posted this. Taking low level magical items out of the hands of one of the most populous races, coupled with cutting down nearly all high level magically powerful NPCs will make your world low magic. I am surprised you can't see that. And it's especially bad if you do it unevenly, which I think you've hinted at - that the bad guys have more powerful people amongst them than the good guys. There can be no balance there, and evil will almost certainly have the upper hand.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-24-08, 06:51 PM	Taking low level magical items out of the hands of one of the most populous races, coupled with cutting down nearly all high level magically powerful NPCs will make your world low magic. I am surprised you can't see that. And it's especially bad if you do it unevenly, which I think you've hinted at - that the bad guys have more powerful people amongst them than the good guys. There can be no balance there, and evil will almost certainly have the upper hand. So if humanity has less magical items than elves and dwarves, how on Toril are they the most populous and debatably the most influencial race. Many of the monsters require magic items to effectively slay. Not to mention other more magically inclined races would have probably enslaved humanity at this point. Think illithid happy meals. With the several magical human empires that have existed in the realms, I find it hard to believe that humans would revert to low magic even when those empires have fallen. It is human nature to seek out and obtain magical power. Bad guys generally do have the upper hand. PCs get to be the ones to turn the balance in favor of good.
Charles Phipps 02-24-08, 06:52 PM	Lets just say I don't agree, except on the PCs being special. Some DMs still artificially slow down the leveling rate of the PCs. I have heard of games that literally take years to reach level 10. Which is all right, I suppose, whatever floats that group's collective boats. In that scenario, it makes sense for NPCs to level slower still. But if you're part of a group that takes, say, a year to get to 40, and that's over 5 game years, then, IMHO, you need to tinker with the NPCs to make them level similarly fast. Well, you would be meeting one of those. When starting our new game, I had a 17th Level Kensai and the choice of playing him as is and developing challenges appropriate while everyone made their own characters or getting a new one. Instead, I requested that the Spell Plague result in his reduction back to fourth level so that I could play alongside them again. I wasn't terribly happy with playing at 17th level anyway since it became too difficult to come up with reasonable challenges for the PCs anyway. I suppose I'm just really keen on fairness and consistency. I take the attitude that NPCs are PCs with the DM as a player (different from the dreaded DMPC, though, which is the gaming equivalent to a Mary Sue/Gary Stu), and so the same rules apply to them... Because if that isn't the case, then there is the temptation to run NPCs to a different set of rules, including fudging and adding stuff to them which PCs can't get... Which used to happen a lot in 2nd Edition. I have heard vague rumors that they're going back to the old "different rules apply" method, and that's one aspect of 4th Edition I'm not sure I'm happy with. Oh, the same rules apply to them. I absolutely hate "PC shields" as a general rule. Removing those NPCs completely changes the flavour of the Realms. It would be like taking Gandalf and Sauron out of Lord of the Rings. Gandalf is only an 18th Level Wizard/2nd Level Fighter. :) Admittedly, he has a higher challenge rating because he's a Deva too. Hehe. Dragonlance. Nuff said. I never understood the rules that you had to leave Krynn at 20th level but Raistlin Majere is pretty much my ideal for explaining how the PCs work. One as devoted as him can rise to Elminster like heights in his lifetime. Or the Anakin/Luke Skywalker equivalent to Yoda levels. Of course not. But hopefully you still did give them extra ad hoc XP for coming up with such a solution (a fair amount based on the challenge rating of their alternative solution, which doesn't mean an equal amount to killing each beholder individually since they didn't really encounter them all, if that makes sense). By not doing so, you're kind of punishing them for approaching the game from a different position than hack and slash. In this case, it was the "In-story" set-up of the game so that they were to come up with the Black Ops. equivalent of the act so its perhaps bad to say they came up with it. However, I gave half the EXP for killing the Big Bad when my players hired Artemis Entreri and roleplayed it the hiring for him to kill him off. Canon Elminster is just as capable of wielding Plot Device as a weapon... When written in a novel. Playing in a game, plot device is a very poor way of doing things, IMHO. As I mentioned before, I'm a big fan of PCs and NPCs obeying the same rules. I'm more a narrative style guy when dealing with super-powerful beings. I mostly just compare CR and what I know of the characters to resolve combat between NPCs. What makes you think humans are incapable of enchanting weapons? In my opinion, of all the races, they're the ones most likely to do so. Elves and Dwarves might spend years perfecting a single weapon, and it will be a work of art and probably enchanted just by dint of the way they do things, but Humans would take a more utilitarian approach and perfect a weapon in a shorter amount of time, and add a magical ritual that will enchant a bunch of weapons all at once. We are the ones who came up with the idea of factories, after all. Which is why Thayans churning out low level magic items by the ton makes sense. It will make even more sense in 4th Edition, when the xp requirement for enchanting an item will be removed. (I'm not sure what it will be replaced with, though.) I made my opinion known on a the Thayan enclaves. I had a Thayan Red Wizard explain the basic idea to a Zulkir in-game, then the Zulkir had him killed then re-animated as a undead that could feel pain before setting him on fire to burn eternally as an eternal statement of how stupid this idea was. I think said Zulkir's words were "You would put magic in the hands of SOMEONE OTHER THAN *US*?!" But yes, it boils down to the following... 1. The gold for manufacturing magical items is ridiculously expensive. 2. The changes in class mean that the vast majority of magicians are either Halruaans, Thayans, or Zhents amongst humans. Every other nation only encounters wizards as individuals with the largest group otherwise being the Harpells. There's no magic schools, colleges, or so on with the possible exception of Blackstaff Tower depending on how you want to define it (a half-dozen apprentices every ten years does not a school make) 3. Getting the required ingrediants is often hazardous in itself (I'm from 2nd Edition where a Scroll must be made with the Blood of a Vampire while a Cocatrice feather must be used to pen it on Vellum taken from the back of a magical sheep) 4. Almost all wizards are Mystrans, which hold magical items with a sacred reverance. It's much much much much more common for magical items to be either leftover objects from Netheril or the product of the Halruaans whom tend to live in a "magical Never-Never land" as far as the rest of Faerun goes. ...Or did at least. But yes, when you live in a society where One Copper=1 Dollar then 75,000 Gold Pieces for a +5 sword is daunting. Really its much easier for magic to be created by Acts of the Gods. And why wouldn't these human nations produce magical weapons of their own? Which is what you have basically implied. Having magical items would give them an edge that would be stupid to pass up, IMHO. Any nation that tried would swiftly bankrupt itself and probably find the wrath of a lot of wizards falling upon them. Bluntly, wizards are able to pretty much write their own check and have better things to do than slave away within laboratories. Making a magical item is a permanent and long standing commitment. Of course, Gondsman CAN and *DO* manufacture objects that SIMULATE magic quite easilly. Go talk to them. Just don't have a problem if it blows up. (The Church of Gond is much more important in my campaigns than in others probably) Have you ever actually played an epic game using the ELH? I've only reached 20th level once and requested that I no longer recieve Experience Points. Fundamentally, I loved the idea of Epic Levels in the flavor text but ultimately it seemed to devalue the setting. I've shared with most of my group the view "No human being can exceed 20th level without becoming a Chosen or something similiar." Yes, but Rangers get (6+Int)x4 at 1st level, compared to Fighters who get (2+Int)x4... That's quite a big difference... If Myrmeen had 18 intelligence that would be the difference between 44 skill points at 1st level and 28 skill points at 1st level (she gets an extra four points at 1st level for being human, which I incorporated in my figures). Therefore she would loose a significant amount of skill points in the transition from Ranger to Fighter, plus many non-skill based abilities as a Ranger (combat style, tracking without penalty, being able to move through the bush unhindered, etc) which wouldn't really make sense. They're the sort of things that once you learn them, you don't forget... Like riding a bicycle. :bored: Fine, she's a Ranger of Tymora. :) A harem and Caladnei as well as a consort, hmm? *chuckles* Busy girl. What did the PC consort think of that? Well, actually as you may recall my asking Ed about it on the boards, that would be me when I wasn't DMing. Bluntly, Ed confirmed there'd be no problem with "what was good for the goose will be good for the gander" and they maintained a fairly open relationship. Frankly, Caladnei wasn't entirely inclined towards girls alone herself and probably has her own descendents by the PC. Though, honestly, it's up to the DM to describe what happened there since I have an off-limits policy towards my PC's legacy in our Shared Realms. Still, Alusair can't exceed her father in all things if she's never the Queen... that would be "exceed her father in all things but one." My players have complained that anyone who has the title King or Queen in my game is an idiot of one stripe or another. The_Mess has already declared "semi-canon" my versions of Lord Nasher and Piergerion the Paladinson. He says only Azoun is outright as bad as I portray. However, if its any consolation, Azoun V did order her to sign a form of abdication post his ascension and then retroactively added the title of "Queen" to her past deeds. It almost started a civil war and a riot but it was the most noble act that I think Azoun V ever did (the other was riding to the rescue of the Dales....again) Taking low level magical items out of the hands of one of the most populous races, coupled with cutting down nearly all high level magically powerful NPCs will make your world low magic. I am surprised you can't see that. It's lower magic. But it makes Halruaa fun where the place is lit up by Continual Light Spells at Night, there's Steam Devices, and the place is like Eberron to everyone's bewildered eyes. Nothing makes PCs freak more than kids casting Dancing Lights spells. The Elven Wizard spit and cursed that it took him 50 years to do that. And it's especially bad if you do it unevenly, which I think you've hinted at - that the bad guys have more powerful people amongst them than the good guys. There can be no balance there, and evil will almost certainly have the upper hand. Oh, absolutely evil has the upper hand. 1. The Zhentariam are hyper-competent in my games and control much of the Heartlands trade plus have secret counselors and enslaved nobles as far as the Sword Coast and The Simbul's Kingdom. I more or less unilaterally took the flavor text for the Thayan enclaves and their diplomatic immunity then applied it to the Zhents. For every plot the PCs stop, 9 more succeed. 2. The Knights of the Shield more or less run Tethyr's North while engaged in their cold war with the Rundeen. Their slaving sects also dominate the markets of the Sword Coast and the Pirate Lords all bow towards them. 3. The Thayans are much more interested in bringing large scale destruction and so on to the world. 4. Orcs are a major threat and Obould's armies could conquer the entirety of Eastern Faerun before they're stopped, much the same like the Tuigan Horde almost did (flatly, I also changed the flavor text for the Horde. The Horde would have been wiped out completely had they fought Thay---magic can't be beaten by calvary) 5. What the Twisted Rune wants to happen, happens. 6. While I haven't yet established what I want to do with Sembia, the Cult of the Dragon pretty much takes its amount of tribute from the Sembian government and prepares to bring about the age of the Dragons. Instead, the Chosen are major balancing forces in the world as they stabilize Waterdeep and other major centers of civilization while trying to keep the Elves and Dwarves as pillars of civilization against the horde. Likewise, The Harpers, are a majorly important force for preserving the freedom of the world and they have a VERY high casualty rate. Ditto the Knights of Samular and The Knights of the Radiant Heart whom are the two major knighthoods in my land. The Spell Plague hasn't improven things either. Of course, take note that wizards WERE much more common on Faerun than Pre-Spell Plague. Now, post it, magic is ridiculously valuable and wizards are actively hunted.
Charles Phipps 02-24-08, 07:26 PM	The role of Good vs. Evil in Faerun-616 I think it's important for PCs to directly understand the effect that they have on Good vs. Evil's balance in the Realms. I don't agree with the Points of Light setting that's placed by Richard Baker because I'm actively of the mind that the Realms is emerging from the early Dark Ages/Iron Age city states into united kingdoms and cities with the Silver Marches only being the first of their activities. In our home campaign; the events of the PCs where Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul were slain followed by the destruction of the Cult of the Dragon backed Tuigan-Horde resulted in a 100-year Golden Age for the sum of Faerun that had the forces of evil markedly on the decline throughout Abeir-Toril. It's only post-the Spell Plague where the world has effectively gone to :censored:. At a simple level, I encourage PCs by making them abundantly aware of the lives that they save even in the small adventures that they do. If the PCs save a village from a horde of orcs then they will be forever remembered that generation as local heroes the same way the Magnificent Seven were remembered by the Mexican farmers (despite the exact opposite happening in the Seven Samurai). Likewise, PCs who save King Azoun's life are not going to be forgotten. They've become eternal friends of the Crown and will be treated as such from this point on. They've done a valuable service and again will be remembered for such. In the case of particularly epic deeds like saving Waukeen or the Moonshaes, they become the subject of ballads that pretty much will not just be a background element but will often come up. I've actually made some notes about the Ballads that the PCs have about them. As befitting what I consider Ed Greenwood's vision, I also favor the idea of a Balanced Good vs. Evil approach. The Harpers, Knights of the Radiant Heart, Knights of Samular, and The Chosen of Mystra are *the* Champions of Good in the Realm and they're paired against the various famous evil societies. Post the Spell Plague, the Balance has temporarilly been destroyed and evil's power is ascendent. Onward, Tyrian soldiers and pray you're able to sacrifice good from a bad situation. In general, though, I disdain the Cobra-treatment that the Zhentariam get (hell, I disdain the Cobra treatment that Cobra gets). One of the reason that the Shades never worked out very well in my games is that I already had a very powerful and manipulative group of wizards with a powerful god at their back. It was called the Zhentariam. Likewise, I had an almost invincible group of wizards with their own nation. They were called the Thayans. The Netherse, as such, brought nothing new to the table. I make it a point to always treat evil with two important rules that have served me well over the years. 1) Don't turn Faerun into the Lord of the Rings: Evil is not a united force of pure malevolence that is about to march over the entire sum of existence. You can certainly have a Siege of Gondor with Thay invading the Simbul's lands but don't feel the need to have the whole of Faerun invaded. That's just silly. Likewise, no one answers to a single god of evil. The Zhents and Thayans hate each other because both know the other plays dirty. 2) Don't ever make your PCs think that they can rest their laurels: In the words of the Mark of Chaos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_KlINBUYc4), "Chaos touches everything." The Zhentariam, Cult, Thayans, and so on are always plotting and working to expand their power. Things will *NOT* be alright if they just set their laurels down because the forces are ever vigilant and creative at changing the rules. The Post Spell-Plague Faerun is one where the Harpers and Knights of Samular/The Radiant Heart are badly weakened plus the Chosen have lost most of their magic. There's some consolation that the Zhents and Thayans are badly hit themselves but the forces of evil are on the move and ascendent in the world. It's a very dark period for our heroes and they must repel everything from the Githyanki to the Church of Shar if they hope to actually make a world that good can survive in. If they work REALLY hard, the Balance will be restored again. If the PCs, fail, the default isn't a return to the status quo of Faerun but something more like the Dark Ages of actual Earth. In other words, our world is a perfect model for the triumph of evil in the Realms.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-24-08, 07:56 PM	I would like to request your take on other uber liches such as Iouloumn and Aumvor the Undying, as well as the remnants of the creator races (I believe you've already stated that you're working on that one). I really like your version of the realms, perhaps WoTC will hire you to write 5e. ;)
Charles Phipps 02-24-08, 08:05 PM	FYI people- I've updated the front page with the appropriate links. I'm going to get back to submissions as well. I am interested if anyone has anything they liked or disliked about Thay, Errtu, Malkizid, and Netheril though since they're things I haven't yet introduced to my players.
Charles Phipps 02-24-08, 08:43 PM	Sarrukh The Sarrukh are a major factor in my campaign and have played an intimate part in quite a few of my adventures. This is due to the fact that a major campaign of my game was the discovery of the fact that one of the PCs was actually a Sarrukh that had been given human form by her father in order to hide her away until she was fully mature. History The history of the Sarrukh on Faerun-616 is one that is somewhat science fiction based and one that is the greatest divergence from Abeir-Toril's history as written. Part of this is due to the fact that I more or less outright stole The Legends Trilogy from Dragonlance and adapted it to a time-spanning adventure where the PCs journeyed back to the last days of the Creator Race's multi-spheric empire. The First Sarrukh Empire This Empire predates the one of canon and is the first race that arose on Abeir-Toril. The First Sarrukh Empire worshiped Amaunator, Shar, and Selune rather than Sseth. The first Sarrukh Empire was a Multi-Spheric and dimensional one that combined both the principles of magic with those of science to create a vast pan-galactic society. The Sarrukh Empire was a Roman-style government with a theocratic head that was the God Priest of Amaunator called the 'Avatar.' This was an Epic Level Priest who was deeply devoted to the idea of transcending the people of Sarrukh from their primitive fleshly ways to become something eternal and divine. The First Sarrukh Empire was already a decadent and evil one, however. While Dragons were already almost as powerful as the Sarrukh, the majority of the Empire functioned at this point on the back of human slaves that were controlled by the genetically engineered Beholders and Illithids that ruled underneath them. It's a running question whether human beings were created by the gods or by were genetically engineered by the Sarrukh like so many other servitor species. Ultimately, the Avatar's attempts to transcend the race of the Sarrukh infuriated the gods as he prepared to use his people's magic to bind them. Shar cast down the 'Dark Moon' of Toril onto the planet's surface and promptly destroyed the First Empire almost completely as 90% of the race's populous on this world was killed in an instant. After the Demon Moon's Fall The Sarrukh proved surprisingly resiliant, however, and the survivors used their technology to carve out massive underground habitat for themselves. This became the Underdark and they imported massive numbers of slaves and monsters to dwell with them. Others entered Stasis and prepared themselves to awaken from this when the world's situation would have recovered from the Demon Moon's Fall. Those Sarrukh who dwelled on other worlds were promptly massacred by their Illithid servants and the great Illithid Empire rose in the place of the Sarrukh. The Illithid Empire did not last though, because it was promptly overthrown by the actions of Gith and Zerthimon. With the fall of the Illithid Empire, the human slaves on thousands of worlds were now free to largely carve out their own civilizations (this is the origin of most D&D worlds in my Multiverse). The Sarrukh on Toril were largely exterminated abroad and war parties of Illithids eventually came to force the non-Stasis Sarrukh onto the frozen surface where they formed the later empires of the race. The Sarrukh mostly migrated to the pennisula of Chult because that was one of the few 'Green' areas left on the world. These Sarrukh abadoned the worship of Amaunator, Selune, and Shar because of the terrible vengeance that they brought down upon their race. Meanwhile, both human beings and Dragons on Abeir-Toril managed to eck out a living in the Ice Age of Faerun despite the fact that most of the rest of the world had been decimated. Quite a few of the Sarrukh's early creations and devices were left over as the Imaskari would eventually use them as the basis to raise their great civilization. Others would use the Sarrukh's portal system to bring in new races from the worlds, long after the fall of their original creators. Because the Sarrukh had genetically modified themselves so much, they were subject to a large degree of mutation without their science to correct the accumulating flaws. Thus, the Sarrukh 'degenerated' into the various races like the Naga and other peoples. Valance The most influential Sarrukh in our games was Valance, the father of one of the PCs and "The Last Sarrukh" as he erroneously claimed on numerous occasions. Valance (NE Sarrukh Male Wizard 40) was the most powerful wizard in the world of Abeir-Toril's history and stronger than most gods. Only recently in the Spell Plague has Larloch exceeded him in his role as the greatest wizard of all time. Valance was obsessed with the concept of Balance and deliberately raised and then razed civilizations to prevent anything like his people's own history from being repeated again. Valance fanced himself the Chosen of Selune despite the fact that the goddess despised him and all that he had become. Valance was something of a Goul'd figure in that he was implied to be responsible for penning the Nether Scrolls and bringing that particular group to the power it was. Likewise, he probably taught the Imaskari the nature of their power. Valance was also implied to be part of the group that summoned the demons that destroyed Myth Drannor. Amongst Valance's many apprentices were the Faerun version of the Circle of Eight and Karsus. Ultimately, Valance was assassinated by the PCs whom allied with 616-Mordenkainen to temporarilly strip the Sarrukh from his connection to the Weave before Mordenkainen drained away most of his life-force. He was also distinctly distracted since he was attempting to move the nation of Wa into its own sub-dimension so he could build his own world from start with the help of Moander's last avatar. The PCs then shoved a Dagger of Venom into the powerless Archwizard's chest and slew him forever. Mordenkainen died soon afterwards but, ultimately, got better before leaving Faerun forever. Valance was a fairly typical "Show up and Taunt the PCs since they can't hurt me" type. Sarrukh Post-Spell Plague The Spell Plague has awakened the Sarrukh Stasis Sub-Dimensions under the nation of Mulhorandi and Neverwinter. The events of Neverwinter Nights 2 thus occurred after the Spell Plague in Faerun-616 and the rise of Morag (CE Sarrukh Female Priestess of Shar 20). Likewise, Mulhorandi has since become a bastion for the Serpent God Set as the Sarrukh have taken over the region in the name of said deity despite having a largely atheist culture themselves. The Sarrukh are mostly confused about their new world and will take some time to build themselves back up again.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-24-08, 08:47 PM	FYI people- I've updated the front page with the appropriate links. I'm going to get back to submissions as well. I am interested if anyone has anything they liked or disliked about Thay, Errtu, Malkizid, and Netheril though since they're things I haven't yet introduced to my players. I really liked all of it, thpugh if you are planning on introducing Thay you may want to consider how prominent a role Eltab plays.
Charles Phipps 02-24-08, 08:48 PM	posted the Sarrukh above you.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-24-08, 09:05 PM	posted the Sarrukh above you. Your Sarrukh entry was Awesome. I like how your creation story explains both the aberrations and the various serpent/lizard races. Do the aberrations still have their racial deities?
Charles Phipps 02-24-08, 09:16 PM	Ghaundaur elevated "perfect" examples of most of the Abberant Races to further the cause of the deranged and twisted. They also worship many of the Old Ones, God Brains, and other Far Realms evils.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-24-08, 09:34 PM	Ghaundaur elevated "perfect" examples of most of the Abberant Races to further the cause of the deranged and twisted. They also worship many of the Old Ones, God Brains, and other Far Realms evils. By "perfect" would that be illustrated by the paragon template? Can you tell us a little more about the Old Ones, God Brains, and other Far Realms evils.
Soltares 02-25-08, 11:08 AM	*****ula of Chult Think ya missed that second 'n.' :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-25-08, 01:40 PM	In 2E, Feywarders (Specialty Priests of Corellon) could specifically be Lawful Good. I think that's saying something. :) The Srinshee was (originally) a LN Gold Elf and Eltargrim was a LG Gold Elf, and, well, those are two of my favorite NPCs. :) Indeed, it seems like many Irythills (sp? don't remember the spelling at the moment) tended to be on the LG side. I've worked specifically on showing a Lawful version of Corellon's faith that the Sun Elves could follow - namely, they make their choices MEAN something. Corellon gave us choice, and it's blasphemy to squander that away by making it meaningless in application. I don't like how the one-step rule (that silly rule...) disallows LG clerics. I never saw a problem with LG clerics of that god, or most of the Seldarine for that matter.
Charles Phipps 02-25-08, 11:21 PM	Labelas Enoreth (The Lifegiver, Lord of the Continuum, The Philosopher King of Arvandor, The Sage at Sunset) Greater God of Arvandor Portfolio: The Afterlife, Foresight, Lore, Immortality, Nobility, Time, Tradition, Wizardry Aliases: Destiny, Father Time, Fate, Kronos (usurped name), Karonis, Savras (usurped name) Alignment: Lawful Good/Lawful Neutral Superior: Corellon Latherian (by choice) Allies: Azuth, Kelemvor, The Seldarine, Mystra, Oghma Foes: Ghaundaur, Lolth, Shar, Vhaeraun Symbol: A falling hourglass Domains: Law, Good, Knowledge, Nobility Worshiper's Alignment: LG, NG, LN, LE Labelas Enoreth (Label-as - EN-OR-ath) is the second or third most powerful member of the Seldarine after Corellon Latherian (depending on whether you believe in the existence of the goddess Angharradh or not). An immensely important figure amongst the elves, he is also one that many Moon Elves tend to view with slight distaste due to his popularity amongst Gold Elves that seems to occasionally even exceed that of Corellon Latherian. Labelas Enoreth appears as a fantastically powerful and pure looking Gold Elf of either male or female gender depending on the god's mood. Labelas favors long and flowing robes with a glorious nimbus of light flowing when he wishes to be known. Quite a few traditions give him a patch over one eye but this is by no means universal. Labelas tends to sport a white pine staff topped by an hourglass. He is often depicted holding a book in his other hand. History and Relationships: According to Gold Elf traditions, Labelas is the slightly older brother of Corellon Latherian but lost a single contest out of a dozen to determine whom would be ruler of the elves. Thus, Labelas set himself up as the chief councilor of the King of the Seldarine. Other traditions hold that Corellon Latherian is the first elf god and Labelas is his eldest son by no mother. Both are true and misleading, Labelas is actually another part of Amaunator/Lathander that eventually gained a free will and sentience of his own. The lawful and rigid aspects of that god's character divorced themselves from the more laid back to produce Labelas in the days before the elves. Suffice to say, the average elf does not know this origin and he keeps it even from his Chosen (though some schools of thought do speculate the two gods are one). Labelas pretty much holds a number of portfolio that would make him a Greater God by themselves in human lands. Labelas effectively combining the roles of God of the Underworld, Knowledge, and Judgment into one single purview. The relative lack of focus that elves have on rigid laws and the afterlife is a quality that makes the second his most important role. Labelas is the god that Elven Sages and wizards pray to along with those who interpret the traditions of Evermeet. While Corellon is prayed to by all Elven Royals, Labelas is the preferred god of councilors. As mentioned, Labelas is a tremendously popular god amongst Gold Elves and considered their patron spirit in the same way that Sehanine Moonbow is the patron of the Moon Elves or Deep Sashelas of the Sea Elves. His teachings widely influence the gods and encourage them to remain tremendously focused on the past while keeping careful record of past precedent. Labelas role of God of Immortality and Tradition means that much of the rigid desire to return to past glories is partially his faith's fault. A dark side of Labelas' church is the fact that he considers the mixing of human blood with elven to result in very short lived elves, which his church has transformed into bigotry. Labelas is actually rather vexed with his faith and one of the main sponsors for ending the Retreat. While Labelas is the Elvish God of Tradition, it's a major misunderstanding that he encourages individuals to dwell in the past as opposed to learning from it. His role as the God of Time means that he believes elves should be equally focused on establishing a great new future. He, privately, attributes the decline of the Elven race in no small part to laziness and lack of ambition from the Fair Folk rather than any fault on his end. Labelas is something of an unpopular figure amongst the primarilly Chaotic Seldarine. He very much considers himself the "Keeper" of the Elves and quite a few believe he crosses moral lines when he feels that the Fair Folk must be brutal in the preservation of their way. He strongly disfavors the actions of Kymil Nemsin and Eldreth Veluuthra despite the fact that he has supported LE priests in the past. This is due to the fact Kymil's racism is against his fellow elves and the fact that a war with human beings would hardly serve the elven race's interests. Nevertheless, Labelas is against "human coddling" and believes that while all races can live in peace, the best way to deal with other races is make sure that you stay reasonable while carrying a big sword. That's just sensible, given past behavior. Maybe in another 10,000 or so years, it might be different but probably not. Strangely, he does have some cults of human worshipers but these are under different names. Labelas is friendly with the human gods of Knowledge, Magic, and the new God of the Dead. Labelas resents that Ao forces Elvish souls to sit at a human god's judgment but prefers Kelemvor to a great many other possibilities. Kelemvor also has proven quite reasonable in how to handle the spirits of Half-Elves and those of Elven blood like Khelben Arusan. The loss of Mystra and resulting Spell Plague has not affected Labelas much other than a keen sense of empathy for the dead while privately making note that Elves will hold an advantage in spell-craft for quite a few centuries. Labelas' enemies are the Queen of Spiders and Vhaeraun while he also is an ancient enemy of Ghaundaur and Shar. Labelas recognizes the threat these two gods pose and encourages his priests to oppose them well beyond the level of other elven deities. Dogma: Elves are long-lived for a reason and one should put that time to use. Do not engage in meaningless frivolity but make your amusements count for something. Elves should be more knowledgeable, more wise, and stronger than other races. Take a long view towards events and do not allow yourself to be tempted by petty short term gain when the health of the People depends on taking a proper gage of far reaching consequences. Study the past and be aware of where others made mistakes in their lives. Do not disregard the benefits of friendship, joy, love, nature, and friendship but also be aware that they require constant vigilance to defend. Be aware how to prevent problems from forming is far more valuable than having the battle skill to deal with them when they do. Never succumb to evil or Labelas will prevent your passage to Arvandor and bottle your soul for his collection.
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-26-08, 01:51 AM	Labelas Enoreth (The Lifegiver, Lord of the Continuum, The Philosopher King of Arvandor, The Sage at Sunset) Greater God of Arvandor Portfolio: The Afterlife, Foresight, Lore, Immortality, Nobility, Time, Tradition, Wizardry Aliases: Destiny, Father Time, Fate, Kronos (usurped name), Karonis, Savras (usurped name) Alignment: Lawful Good/Lawful Neutral Superior: Corellon Latherian (by choice) Allies: Azuth, Kelemvor, The Seldarine, Mystra, Oghma Foes: Ghaundaur, Lolth, Shar, Vhaeraun Symbol: A falling hourglass Domains: Law, Good, Knowledge, Nobility Worshiper's Alignment: LG, NG, LN, LE Labelas Enoreth (Label-as - EN-OR-ath) is the second or third most powerful member of the Seldarine after Corellon Latherian (depending on whether you believe in the existence of the goddess Angharradh or not). An immensely important figure amongst the elves, he is also one that many Moon Elves tend to view with slight distaste due to his popularity amongst Gold Elves that seems to occasionally even exceed that of Corellon Latherian. Labelas Enoreth appears as a fantastically powerful and pure looking Gold Elf of either male or female gender depending on the god's mood. Labelas favors long and flowing robes with a glorious nimbus of light flowing when he wishes to be known. Quite a few traditions give him a patch over one eye but this is by no means universal. Labelas tends to sport a white pine staff topped by an hourglass. He is often depicted holding a book in his other hand. History and Relationships: According to Gold Elf traditions, Labelas is the slightly older brother of Corellon Latherian but lost a single contest out of a dozen to determine whom would be ruler of the elves. Thus, Labelas set himself up as the chief councilor of the King of the Seldarine. Other traditions hold that Corellon Latherian is the first elf god and Labelas is his eldest son by no mother. Both are true and misleading, Labelas is actually another part of Amaunator/Lathander that eventually gained a free will and sentience of his own. The lawful and rigid aspects of that god's character divorced themselves from the more laid back to produce Labelas in the days before the elves. Suffice to say, the average elf does not know this origin and he keeps it even from his Chosen (though some schools of thought do speculate the two gods are one). Labelas pretty much holds a number of portfolio that would make him a Greater God by themselves in human lands. Labelas effectively combining the roles of God of the Underworld, Knowledge, and Judgment into one single purview. The relative lack of focus that elves have on rigid laws and the afterlife is a quality that makes the second his most important role. Labelas is the god that Elven Sages and wizards pray to along with those who interpret the traditions of Evermeet. While Corellon is prayed to by all Elven Royals, Labelas is the preferred god of councilors. As mentioned, Labelas is a tremendously popular god amongst Gold Elves and considered their patron spirit in the same way that Sehanine Moonbow is the patron of the Moon Elves or Deep Sashelas of the Sea Elves. His teachings widely influence the gods and encourage them to remain tremendously focused on the past while keeping careful record of past precedent. Labelas role of God of Immortality and Tradition means that much of the rigid desire to return to past glories is partially his faith's fault. A dark side of Labelas' church is the fact that he considers the mixing of human blood with elven to result in very short lived elves, which his church has transformed into bigotry. Labelas is actually rather vexed with his faith and one of the main sponsors for ending the Retreat. While Labelas is the Elvish God of Tradition, it's a major misunderstanding that he encourages individuals to dwell in the past as opposed to learning from it. His role as the God of Time means that he believes elves should be equally focused on establishing a great new future. He, privately, attributes the decline of the Elven race in no small part to laziness and lack of ambition from the Fair Folk rather than any fault on his end. Labelas is something of an unpopular figure amongst the primarilly Chaotic Seldarine. He very much considers himself the "Keeper" of the Elves and quite a few believe he crosses moral lines when he feels that the Fair Folk must be brutal in the preservation of their way. He strongly disfavors the actions of Kymil Nemsin and Eldreth Veluuthra despite the fact that he has supported LE priests in the past. This is due to the fact Kymil's racism is against his fellow elves and the fact that a war with human beings would hardly serve the elven race's interests. Nevertheless, Labelas is against "human coddling" and believes that while all races can live in peace, the best way to deal with other races is make sure that you stay reasonable while carrying a big sword. That's just sensible, given past behavior. Maybe in another 10,000 or so years, it might be different but probably not. Strangely, he does have some cults of human worshipers but these are under different names. Labelas is friendly with the human gods of Knowledge, Magic, and the new God of the Dead. Labelas resents that Ao forces Elvish souls to sit at a human god's judgment but prefers Kelemvor to a great many other possibilities. Kelemvor also has proven quite reasonable in how to handle the spirits of Half-Elves and those of Elven blood like Khelben Arusan. The loss of Mystra and resulting Spell Plague has not affected Labelas much other than a keen sense of empathy for the dead while privately making note that Elves will hold an advantage in spell-craft for quite a few centuries. Labelas' enemies are the Queen of Spiders and Vhaeraun while he also is an ancient enemy of Ghaundaur and Shar. Labelas recognizes the threat these two gods pose and encourages his priests to oppose them well beyond the level of other elven deities. Dogma: Elves are long-lived for a reason and one should put that time to use. Do not engage in meaningless frivolity but make your amusements count for something. Elves should be more knowledgeable, more wise, and stronger than other races. Take a long view towards events and do not allow yourself to be tempted by petty short term gain when the health of the People depends on taking a proper gage of far reaching consequences. Study the past and be aware of where others made mistakes in their lives. Do not disregard the benefits of friendship, joy, love, nature, and friendship but also be aware that they require constant vigilance to defend. Be aware how to prevent problems from forming is far more valuable than having the battle skill to deal with them when they do. Never succumb to evil or Labelas will prevent your passage to Arvandor and bottle your soul for his collection. Were I a gold elf in your campaign I would follow Labelas. I just realized we haven't seen a writeup about Lolth. Is the queen of spiders different from her canon version?
Charles Phipps 02-26-08, 02:25 AM	By "perfect" would that be illustrated by the paragon template? Can you tell us a little more about the Old Ones, God Brains, and other Far Realms evils. Great Old Ones-616 Great Old Ones are Paragon members of Abberant races that are empowered by the strength of Ghaundaur to become Demigods. Some of the Great Old Ones go on to become full fledged deities of tremendous power but most of them remain half-way between the mortal world and the physical world. The majority of the Great Old Ones were created during the years of Tharizdun's Freedom and are his direct spawn. These are the most powerful of them, though some of them were later beings that were elevated through the worship of many beings and the most depraved rites imaginable. Ghaundaur's power will elevate any being that pays his blood toll, which makes him an attractive deity for the utterly soulless. On Oerth, Vecna achieved his divinity through a ritual that invoked the power of Ghaundaur and this is partially why he's such a tremendous pariah amongst the gods. Likewise, the ritual invocation by Velsharoon and a being called "The King in Yellow" drew upon Ghaundaur's power. Talos merely took credit for Velsharoon's ascension due to his own service of Chaos. Unlike most deities, the Great Old Ones desire greatly to walk in the physical world and destroy. Part of this is due to the fact they desire to consume souls for themselves and also a simple urge to unleash the chaos of their tainted power. They achieve this by having their faithful craft massive bodies for themselves that divine law prevents the gods from simply destroying. The earliest Old Ones actually were physically empowered by Ghaundaur and are almost invincible but were bound before the divine laws preventing interferance from the gods were established. These beings are called many names on many worlds with the Rajahs of Eberron, the Elder Elemental Horrors of Oerth, and the Elder Evils of Faerun. Strangely, not all Abberations worship these gods. Illithids, despite having their own ascended deities, tend to be atheists. Instead, they revere the Elder Brains of their kind as the spiritual home for their beings and worship instead. Some Illithids even gain spells, though these are granted by their connection to Ilsensine. Kelemvor has no hold on Illithid Faithless so long as the Elder brains exist since they never actually "die." A list of known Great Old Ones Calgahto - A Paragon Neogi Great Old Master that is insane and mindless but served but thousands of other Paragon Neogi deep in the folds of the Underdark. Vecna- An Unknown servant of the Elder Elemental Evil. Velsharoon- Likewise, he now has started listening to the voices in his head that he assumes to be Myrkul. The King in Yellow- Yet another ascended mortal wizard who destroyed his world. It is another name for Ilsensine. Dendar the Night Serpent- Also known as the Faerun serpent. It encircles the entire pole of Abeir-Toril's Ethereal Plane. It's "soul" is bound in Carceri by Kelemvor and other god's magic. Kesef The Chaos Hound: Currently, it wanders the cosmos destroying and pillaging at will. The Great Mother- The Paragon Goddess of the Beholders is one of the few to awaken to full goddess-hood and become the mistress of a layer of the Abyss. Kaithulhu- The paragon of the Star Spawn race and worshiped by many sects of evil sea races. Typhon - Also known as the Tarrasque. It is the "Godzilla" version rather than the original. It is actually amongst the most powerful of the Great Old Ones since all Tarrasques on every world are avatars of it. Bizarrely, it's not actually malevolent since it is often invoked by Chauntea to destroy abominations on her surface. The Devouring Horror - Also known as the Elf Eater.
Charles Phipps 02-26-08, 02:54 AM	Mulhorand-616 The Spell-Plague barely touched Mulhorand as their gods Isis, Thoth, and Set absorbed the majority of the ill-effects just as the Elven Gods of Magic did for their people. However, it's a land that has faired amongst the poorest in the preceding one hundred years. Mulhorand used to stand for one of the Great Old Empires but now is known as "The Thay of the Shining South" or "The Accursed Land" amongst other flattering epithets. Horustep III was assassinated on the eve of his wedding to the foreign mercenary woman that has since become immortalized as "The Red Queen." Agents of Set blasphemed the Living God and all of his priests by murdering them in one gigantic orgiastic night of blood. Monstrous Serpent Men proceeded to then unleash a storm of magic on the government's wizards and priests that proved almost impossible to counteract. The Army of Anhur was positioned all throughout Unther at this time and almost simultaneously found itself cut off by the newly spawned hordes of Tiamat the Queen of Darkness. Though large numbers of soldiers managed to fight their way back to their homeland, they soon found their families held hostage and a massive host of Chessenta mercenaries greeted them. The fall of the God-Kings was complete when the Last Pharoah's youngest son was strangled in a potter's basement. For one hundred years, the God-Priests of Set and the Sarrukh have ruled Mulhorand. The Spell Plague awakened the ancient Serpent Men and they chose to wisely ally with the local faith. The Priests of Set have had little luck in converting the Sarrukh to their faith, though many pay lip service, but they maintain almost total hegemony over the human portion of the populous' worship. The Priests of Set are largely content to conduct blasphemous pairings to become Yuan-Ti and handle the decadent glories that their "masters" care little for. Set is the only god permitted in the land of Mulhorand and all other faiths are prohibited. To mutter a prayer to another god is to be punished by flogging and to be found to be a priest of them is a capital crime. The temples to Set are often filled with murderous offerings of criminals and slaves to the Serpent King. The Sarrukh have allowed only scraps of magical knowledge to fall into the Setites' hands but this has resulted in a renaissance of magic amongst the Mulhorandi. Set's faithful wizards now exceed those in the employ of Zhentil Keep and possibly someday will rival even the Thayans for the number of magicians in its service. Due to the power of the Untherese and their Dragon Queen, there is routine warring along the border as both attempt to dominate the other but merely waste lives. The Mulhorandi are an expanionist state though as they lack Horus-Re's aversion to change. The majority of their expansion is to South and East with some speculating that Thay might yet be converted to the worship of the Serpent God. The Sarrukh particularly like the idea of gaining an Empire of wizards and priests under their control to dominate most of Faerun but they would have to eliminate Szass Tam first. The Sarrukh have opened numerous portals to the rest of Faerun and the exotic traders of Mulhorand (Sarrukh and Yuan-Ti in disguise) are now common sites in many of Faerun's ports and major cities. Quite a few come to preach the way of Set and are very good at disguising the malevolence of the god. In the Spell Plague's wake, their abundance and causal practice of magic has caught many off guard. Already though, many have started viewing the Mulhorandi not as eccentric foreigners but a potential dire threat. The people of Mulhorand are a downtrodden and beaten lot. All of the original inhabitants who remember the Old Kingdom have died and most have sincerely embraced the fiction they have always worshiped Set. Language and writing are forbidden to all but the Priests of Set. A few scattered cults to Isis and Horus-Re still exist. A small section of Mulhorand's vast empire in the Plains of Purple Dust have become home to a thriving nomadic people descended from Anhur's Armies. Here amongst the Pyramids that the Setites erect to their Demigod-Wizards and Mummy Lords, the Anhurites prey upon the worshiper's of evil and hope to someday cast it down.
Vared 02-26-08, 07:54 AM	Greetings. I have read through the Forgotten Realms forums for quite some time now, and I must say that I finally fell for the temptation, created an account, and, well... this would be my first post. To begin with, I like the fact that some people actually can mantain a discussion, even if their opinions differ, without 'resorting' to statements such as "You are , because you do not agree with me!" Quite refreshing, to know that not all is lost. ...Yet. Anyhow, here is what I wanted to say: Charles, I like your version of the realms, even if I do not agree with everything. But I especially like your take on "Levels, Classes and NPC's". I believe, that a (very)high level indicates greatness(be it for better or worse), something [I]beyond what the average person(within the game world, that is)could grasp. So, (in my games) I find a "liberal dispention of levels" to be something I just can not stomach. In my opinion, levels should be earned, through sweat, endless training, blood, and hard work... So when you have attained, say, about ten to twelve levels or so, you are really special. And when you get close to twenty levels, your skill is almost unbelievable. And further, I like to harbour the very same opinion regarding 'magic' as well. Nothing... commonplace, easy to use rubbish, but powerful, mysterious... and deadly. I am sure some of you would disagree with me, as I am sure, that some of you will not. But it makes me glad, that you will state your opinion, and your motiviation behind it. Not tell me how worthless I am. At the very least, this is what I have seen from you posters so far. "I go."
Mister_Mxyztplk 02-26-08, 12:19 PM	Greetings. I have read through the Forgotten Realms forums for quite some time now, and I must say that I finally fell for the temptation, created an account, and, well... this would be my first post. To begin with, I like the fact that some people actually can mantain a discussion, even if their opinions differ, without 'resorting' to statements such as "You are , because you do not agree with me!" Quite refreshing, to know that not all is lost. ...Yet. Anyhow, here is what I wanted to say: Charles, I like your version of the realms, even if I do not agree with everything. But I especially like your take on "Levels, Classes and NPC's". I believe, that a (very)high level indicates greatness(be it for better or worse), something [I]beyond what the average person(within the game world, that is)could grasp. So, (in my games) I find a "liberal dispention of levels" to be something I just can not stomach. In my opinion, levels should be earned, through sweat, endless training, blood, and hard work... So when you have attained, say, about ten to twelve levels or so, you are really special. And when you get close to twenty levels, your skill is almost unbelievable. And further, I like to harbour the very same opinion regarding 'magic' as well. Nothing... commonplace, easy to use rubbish, but powerful, mysterious... and deadly. I am sure some of you would disagree with me, as I am sure, that some of you will not. But it makes me glad, that you will state your opinion, and your motiviation behind it. Not tell me how worthless I am. At the very least, this is what I have seen from you posters so far. "I go." Welcome to the forums. I agree with you and Charles that hard work should be required in order to level up. It also depends on the preferences of the group of players and the DM. Some people like to start their games at epic levels. I prefer the lower levels myself, helps to give the characters more depth.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 04:18 PM	I am sure some of you would disagree with me, as I am sure, that some of you will not. But it makes me glad, that you will state your opinion, and your motiviation behind it. Not tell me how worthless I am. At the very least, this is what I have seen from you posters so far. Let's hope it continues--we all do our part. :) Welcome to the forums.:)
GothicDan 02-26-08, 04:36 PM	Okay, Charles. I love Labelas. One question, though - how'd he become the God of the Underworld/Dead? What happened with Sehanine?
Charles Phipps 02-26-08, 04:44 PM	Okay, Charles. I love Labelas. One question, though - how'd he become the God of the Underworld/Dead? What happened with Sehanine? Sehanine has never been God of the Elven Dead in my games. Frankly, the fact that Labelas has always been the god of longevity and time (which wears down even elves) made it seem like a perfect graft to him. The fact Labelas is also a judging and traditionalist sort seemed appropriate to graft it on. Sehanine still is the Guide for the Elves to Arvandor though and she who helps them make the physical passage when elves feel the need to move on. In a bizarre suggestion, it's similar to Bhaal and Myrkul.
Storm_Silverhand 02-26-08, 06:49 PM	Heya, Well, you would be meeting one of those. When starting our new game, I had a 17th Level Kensai and the choice of playing him as is and developing challenges appropriate while everyone made their own characters or getting a new one. Instead, I requested that the Spell Plague result in his reduction back to fourth level so that I could play alongside them again. I wasn't terribly happy with playing at 17th level anyway since it became too difficult to come up with reasonable challenges for the PCs anyway. So he got amnesia? That'd be about the only explanation that works for such a level reduction. :P (Or he was replaced by an earlier self from the past...) I'm just curious how exactly it was justified. :) I'd roll a new character rather than do that to an old one, even if it was a favorite. (But then again, I love making new characters - so maybe that's just me. :)) I probably don't need to tell you that there are ways of making high level encounters a challenge for high level characters - even combat wombats like a Kensai. I'm just curious as to why you think it won't work or why your and your fellow DMs don't see fit to implement such solutions. Gandalf is only an 18th Level Wizard/2nd Level Fighter. :) Admittedly, he has a higher challenge rating because he's a Deva too. Hehe. Well that's your interpretation. Others may well disagree... I don't know enough about LotR to make an in depth analysis (everyone makes such a song and dance about Tolkien, for some unknown reason. I could never get into his novels)... I only used it as an example of a setting with powerful characters whose absence or power level reduction would make a big impact on the story. I never understood the rules that you had to leave Krynn at 20th level but Raistlin Majere is pretty much my ideal for explaining how the PCs work. One as devoted as him can rise to Elminster like heights in his lifetime. Or the Anakin/Luke Skywalker equivalent to Yoda levels. The Queen of Chaos made an exception for Raistlin. Ultimately he failed in his bid to kill her (voluntarily chose to fail so he wouldn't destroy the world), and once it was all said and done, he ended up leaving the world anyway - by ending up trapped and tortured in the Abyss by Tahkisis... Something she probably foresaw in advance anyway, and was probably the reason she made the exception. In this case, it was the "In-story" set-up of the game so that they were to come up with the Black Ops. equivalent of the act so its perhaps bad to say they came up with it. However, I gave half the EXP for killing the Big Bad when my players hired Artemis Entreri and roleplayed it the hiring for him to kill him off. Well if they hired someone else to kill their big bad, they deserve a small ad hoc xp reward for getting Artemis to do the job... Half the xp is probably being generous. On the other hand, they probably deserve a generous ad hoc xp reward for role playing, and being able to find and contact Artemis, and convince to take the job on without being killed. :) I'm more a narrative style guy when dealing with super-powerful beings. I mostly just compare CR and what I know of the characters to resolve combat between NPCs. There's nothing wrong with that, of course. So long as you're fair about it, and don't give the edge to one or the other just because you like them... I'd never do something like that! *whistles and looks somewhat sheepish* :embarrass I made my opinion known on a the Thayan enclaves. I had a Thayan Red Wizard explain the basic idea to a Zulkir in-game, then the Zulkir had him killed then re-animated as a undead that could feel pain before setting him on fire to burn eternally as an eternal statement of how stupid this idea was. I think said Zulkir's words were "You would put magic in the hands of SOMEONE OTHER THAN *US*?!" No, you put just enough magic in their hands that they keep coming back to you for more. Slowly you lure them into buying other things, like drugs or slaves, or you bribe them, or otherwise get a hold on them... Then you use them. You use them over and over and over until they're of no use any more, then you kill them and take their stuff... and sell it to the next poor bunny to come along. But yes, it boils down to the following...<snip!> You have some good points... but... 4. Almost all wizards are Mystrans, which hold magical items with a sacred reverance. Mystra is all about encouraging the growth and spread of magic. The more people who use magic, whether personally or via a magical item, the better off she is. Therefore, the idea of selling magical items at reasonable prices wouldn't be anathema to her... In fact, it would be something she quietly encourages - which is why she gave the Simbul the directive to back off on the Thayans in Elminster's Daughter (I think it was). But yes, when you live in a society where One Copper=1 Dollar then 75,000 Gold Pieces for a +5 sword is daunting. Really its much easier for magic to be created by Acts of the Gods. Actually I think you're understating the value of Realms currency... But I also never said that commoners would buy a +5 sword, nor did I ever say high level magic items would be very common. Of course, Gondsman CAN and *DO* manufacture objects that SIMULATE magic quite easilly. Go talk to them. Just don't have a problem if it blows up. (The Church of Gond is much more important in my campaigns than in others probably) Gond is one deity I quite happily ignore in the Realms. I've only reached 20th level once and requested that I no longer recieve Experience Points. Fundamentally, I loved the idea of Epic Levels in the flavor text but ultimately it seemed to devalue the setting. I've shared with most of my group the view "No human being can exceed 20th level without becoming a Chosen or something similiar." Whatever floats your boat. I don't agree, but I am not going to waste any more time trying to convince you to change your opinion. :bored: Fine, she's a Ranger of Tymora. :) :confused: Excuse my confusion, but does that mean I've convinced you or not? Well, actually as you may recall my asking Ed about it on the boards, that would be me when I wasn't DMing. Bluntly, Ed confirmed there'd be no problem with "what was good for the goose will be good for the gander" and they maintained a fairly open relationship. Frankly, Caladnei wasn't entirely inclined towards girls alone herself and probably has her own descendents by the PC. Though, honestly, it's up to the DM to describe what happened there since I have an off-limits policy towards my PC's legacy in our Shared Realms. I do seem to remember reading that, now you mention it. :) I'd be interested to know more of what happened, but that's fine if you don't want to expand on it. :) My players have complained that anyone who has the title King or Queen in my game is an idiot of one stripe or another. The_Mess has already declared "semi-canon" my versions of Lord Nasher and Piergerion the Paladinson. He says only Azoun is outright as bad as I portray. Just because you're a King or a Queen doesn't mean you're above human frailties. :) Still, you gotta be fair - flaws don't mean you're going to be a bad ruler. No one is perfect, after all. However, if its any consolation, Azoun V did order her to sign a form of abdication post his ascension and then retroactively added the title of "Queen" to her past deeds. It almost started a civil war and a riot but it was the most noble act that I think Azoun V ever did (the other was riding to the rescue of the Dales....again) No, not a consolation. But then I've been pretty sore about Azoun V since he was born. :P It's lower magic. But it makes Halruaa fun where the place is lit up by Continual Light Spells at Night, there's Steam Devices, and the place is like Eberron to everyone's bewildered eyes. Nothing makes PCs freak more than kids casting Dancing Lights spells. Ugh. Can't the Realms just be the Realms? Must it be Eberron too? :P ;) :D The Elven Wizard spit and cursed that it took him 50 years to do that. Depends on how you look at Elven aging. Apparently they age just as humans do, but slow down after their teens. I'd imagine they learn at the same rate too - except that elves are a lot more fussy about getting things just perfect... Which is why most beginning adventuring elves are in their early 100s. Oh, absolutely evil has the upper hand. Is there hope for good, though? Instead, the Chosen are major balancing forces in the world as they stabilize Waterdeep and other major centers of civilization while trying to keep the Elves and Dwarves as pillars of civilization against the horde. Likewise, The Harpers, are a majorly important force for preserving the freedom of the world and they have a VERY high casualty rate. Ditto the Knights of Samular and The Knights of the Radiant Heart whom are the two major knighthoods in my land. The answer to my above question is - obviously yes. :) Though I think the attrition rate might put me off playing in such a world. I like it when the good guys win. The Spell Plague hasn't improven things either. Of course, take note that wizards WERE much more common on Faerun than Pre-Spell Plague. Now, post it, magic is ridiculously valuable and wizards are actively hunted. Ugh. :(
GothicDan 02-26-08, 07:23 PM	Sehanine has never been God of the Elven Dead in my games. Frankly, the fact that Labelas has always been the god of longevity and time (which wears down even elves) made it seem like a perfect graft to him. The fact Labelas is also a judging and traditionalist sort seemed appropriate to graft it on. Sehanine still is the Guide for the Elves to Arvandor though and she who helps them make the physical passage when elves feel the need to move on. In a bizarre suggestion, it's similar to Bhaal and Myrkul. Perfectly understandable. Hermes guided the dead to the Underworld, where Hades ruled, but Death itself was Thanatos. :)
Charles Phipps 02-26-08, 07:30 PM	So he got amnesia? That'd be about the only explanation that works for such a level reduction. (Or he was replaced by an earlier self from the past...) I'm just curious how exactly it was justified. I'd roll a new character rather than do that to an old one, even if it was a favorite. Personally, I'd play Fuji until the end of time. :-) As for what happened, Fuji was a Weave user for his "Ki Powers" so the death of Mystra basically made all of his training up until this point to be worthless except for the very fundamental basics of it (4th level). Fuji thus decided it would be a challenge to not only reach the level he had before with a different source of power but exceed it. He's currently 12th level in The_Mess' game. So he's made exceptional progress in once more becoming "The Greatest Warrior in the Realms" again. I probably don't need to tell you that there are ways of making high level encounters a challenge for high level characters - even combat wombats like a Kensai. I'm just curious as to why you think it won't work or why your and your fellow DMs don't see fit to implement such solutions. I explain it in this question. "A horde of orcs are coming at you. Do you..." A. Flee in terror B. Run to find some cover C. Try to move to defensive position in hopes of repelling them D. Laugh If the answer is D, then I don't want you at my games. Average Swordsmen and Mooks are dangerous at all levels in my games. You can still kill plenty of them but they're a threat that should never be shrugged off. The Queen of Chaos made an exception for Raistlin. Ultimately he failed in his bid to kill her (voluntarily chose to fail so he wouldn't destroy the world), and once it was all said and done, he ended up leaving the world anyway - by ending up trapped and tortured in the Abyss by Tahkisis... Something she probably foresaw in advance anyway, and was probably the reason she made the exception. Raistlin was granted peace by Paladine. Later, it turns out he became a Demigod who found Krynn when no one else could. Well if they hired someone else to kill their big bad, they deserve a small ad hoc xp reward for getting Artemis to do the job... Half the xp is probably being generous. On the other hand, they probably deserve a generous ad hoc xp reward for role playing, and being able to find and contact Artemis, and convince to take the job on without being killed. I gave half because it was good to reward ingenuity. ;-) There's nothing wrong with that, of course. So long as you're fair about it, and don't give the edge to one or the other just because you like them... I'd never do something like that! *whistles and looks somewhat sheepish* Hehe. No, you put just enough magic in their hands that they keep coming back to you for more. Slowly you lure them into buying other things, like drugs or slaves, or you bribe them, or otherwise get a hold on them... Then you use them. You use them over and over and over until they're of no use any more, then you kill them and take their stuff... and sell it to the next poor bunny to come along. Actually, the Zhents use drugs and slaves to do that from the start in my games. ;-) Mystra is all about encouraging the growth and spread of magic. The more people who use magic, whether personally or via a magical item, the better off she is. Therefore, the idea of selling magical items at reasonable prices wouldn't be anathema to her... In fact, it would be something she quietly encourages - which is why she gave the Simbul the directive to back off on the Thayans in Elminster's Daughter (I think it was). Mystra wants magic in the hands of RESPONSIBLE wielders. Magic is an uncontrollable, unpredictable, mysterious, and powerful force. It changes people to use it and drives individuals who look at Spell books without the proper training irrevocably insane. A miscasting can level a village. Suffice to say, its why Halruaa and Netheril freak people out. Gond is one deity I quite happily ignore in the Realms. I like him because he allows me to vary the Tech Level a bit. Excuse my confusion, but does that mean I've convinced you or not? You convinced me, I just didn't think too much of the decision's need like you. :-) Ugh. Can't the Realms just be the Realms? Must it be Eberron too? Actually, given it was 1997 when I first detailed my Halruaa. I believe a better point is "Ugh, can't the Realms just be the Realms? Must it be Mystara and Final Fantasy too?" Depends on how you look at Elven aging. Apparently they age just as humans do, but slow down after their teens. I'd imagine they learn at the same rate too - except that elves are a lot more fussy about getting things just perfect... Which is why most beginning adventuring elves are in their early 100s. For me, an elven 20 year old should be about the size of a human ten year old. I don't mind the slow aging. A lot has to do with biology and I don't see why a twenty year old with the body of a child should be interested in girls or physically aggressive etc. Even if they're mentally developed far better than human children. I do seem to remember reading that, now you mention it. I'd be interested to know more of what happened, but that's fine if you don't want to expand on it. Well, sadly, the campaign didn't get very far before 4E was announced and Grand History of the Realms came out. Suffice to say, my players were very interested in doing a Vampire the Masquerade game too, which meant that I had to scrap a lot of my plans or switch them 100 years in the future. However, cracking over my DM's notebook. My ideas for the relationship after the marriage went something like this. My DM and I had some issues we had to turn to Ed Greenwood over to resolve of all things, especially on his obligations as Prince-Consort. Charlie's Notes on the Relationship Alusair's relationship with Fuji Goemon is somewhat tempestous at the best of times as the samurai has the irritating quality of just leaving to go adventure whenever he gets troubled. Technically, the enobled Baron of the Stonelands, that region never seems to lack for monsters for the swordsmen to test his skills against. The marriage is "open" to say the least with Alusair maintaining her collection of knights around her and numerous older lovers that have since gone on to marry and become important lords in their own right. Fuji hails from the polygamous, at least in terms of concubinage, society of Wa so this doesn't particularly phase him but there was some initial controversy over his own needs. Bizarrely, Caladnei proved to be something of a resolution to this as her own description by Ed Greenwood finds a woman deeply frustrated yet actively afraid of being compromised by her position. Alusair solved the issue by insisting the two handle each other's needs when she wasn't requiring them. Ultimately, this results in two heirs on Caladnei's part whom go on to found a rather sizable clan of Sorcerers in Arabel. Alusair, herself, remains childless due to the decision not to bear children in order to avoid contesting Azoun V's claim to the throne. If a child was born, it was done solely as a 'secret heir' and probably with time dilation at Laspeera's orders. It would be unlikely Fuji would even know he had a legitimate heir to the throne. Honestly, I felt vaguely dirty about the whole thing even with the Greenwood stamp of approval. I'm still not sure what the kids names were or I'll be incorporating them post-Spell plague since Fuji is still wandering around Abeir-Toril and currently defending Cormyr yet again (worst Baron ever). The answer to my above question is - obviously yes. Though I think the attrition rate might put me off playing in such a world. I like it when the good guys win. The Knights of Samular and the Radiant Heart plus Harpers are the random Jedi Knights in the background of Attack of the Clones or the 00 Agents that always get killed before Bond steps in. Good doesn't lose predominantly in the confrontations with Good vs. Evil, it's just the Zhents and other bad guys give as good as they get. It's why the Zhentariam and Red Wizards are SUPER-Villains as opposed to just villains. Mostly confronting slaver rings, pirates, and Thieves' Guilds, they just kick ass. [quote=Storm Silverhand]Ugh.[/quotes] Don't get too problematic. The player characters have already turned Sarevok's beating the armies of Cormyr to pieces into an even fight, have already killed Volumax the Demigod of Shar, saved an entire planet from falling under Bane's control in Planescape, and will probably end up defeating the following groups.... Gerrti Olafsdotter and the Giant Armies of the North Xvim the Despot Gargauth Hellgate Keep (which hasn't fallen yet in my games) The Lich Queen of the Githyanki Plus, they'll probably release Mystra and start magic's recovery. Suffice to say, our heroes will single handedly (if such can be applied to an adventuring party) turn the tide against evil and once more restore good and magic to the world. When evil gets its ass throughly handed to them, it's usually by PCs. I'm a big fan of these games. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080225a
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 09:22 PM	deleted
The_Mess 02-26-08, 09:24 PM	Personally, I'd play Fuji until the end of time. :-) Not me. There are too many things to try out. I explain it in this question. "A horde of orcs are coming at you. Do you..." A. Flee in terror B. Run to find some cover C. Try to move to defensive position in hopes of repelling them D. Laugh If the answer is D, then I don't want you at my games. Average Swordsmen and Mooks are dangerous at all levels in my games. You can still kill plenty of them but they're a threat that should never be shrugged off. Kerri: A. Galan: C. Musim: C. And D. Lisa: E, offer to sell them a map to the hero's *real* location. Over there. Far over there. Mystra wants magic in the hands of RESPONSIBLE wielders. Magic is an uncontrollable, unpredictable, mysterious, and powerful force. It changes people to use it and drives individuals who look at Spell books without the proper training irrevocably insane. A miscasting can level a village. I point out that the extant Mystra in our games hasn't been canon Mystra for a long time, but a PC very much concerned with too much dangerous magic in the world. Her logic was that magic wouldn't truly spread out and be accepted by societies as long as ordinary people lived in terror of it. She made mistakes, of course. Even if they're mentally developed far better than human children. Remember, maturity isn't just a function of time, experience, and education, but very much of biology. Brain chemistry changes at puberty and thoughts become more complex. A race that reaches puberty later will still have very child-like thoughts until it does. I'm still not sure what the kids names were or I'll be incorporating them post-Spell plague since Fuji is still wandering around Abeir-Toril and currently defending Cormyr yet again (worst Baron ever). Compared to Zasheira? :-)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 09:30 PM	So he got amnesia? That'd be about the only explanation that works for such a level reduction. :P (Or he was replaced by an earlier self from the past...) I'm just curious how exactly it was justified. :) I'd roll a new character rather than do that to an old one, even if it was a favorite. (But then again, I love making new characters - so maybe that's just me. :) ( I'd feel the same way--I'd rather never be able to play a PC again then "ruin" them by that kind of level reduction. I think massive depowering like that is...a sin, of some sort. That's one reason I was always wary of converting a 2E multi-classed character to 3E--apparently, they'd have to lose about one-third of their levels (whether that's "fair" or not, it made the character seem to different to me).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 09:30 PM	So he got amnesia? That'd be about the only explanation that works for such a level reduction. :P (Or he was replaced by an earlier self from the past...) I'm just curious how exactly it was justified. :) I'd roll a new character rather than do that to an old one, even if it was a favorite. (But then again, I love making new characters - so maybe that's just me. :) ( I'd feel the same way--I'd rather never be able to play a PC again then "ruin" them by that kind of level reduction. I think massive depowering like that is...a sin, of some sort. That's one reason I was always wary of converting a 2E multi-classed character to 3E--apparently, they'd have to lose about one-third of their levels (whether that's "fair" or not, it made the character seem to different to me).
Charles Phipps 02-26-08, 09:35 PM	and please, yes, I know Fuji Goemon ranks up there for most generic Samurai names of all time.
Storm_Silverhand 02-28-08, 06:58 PM	Heya, Personally, I'd play Fuji until the end of time. :-) As for what happened, Fuji was a Weave user for his "Ki Powers" so the death of Mystra basically made all of his training up until this point to be worthless except for the very fundamental basics of it (4th level). Fuji thus decided it would be a challenge to not only reach the level he had before with a different source of power but exceed it. He's currently 12th level in The_Mess' game. So he's made exceptional progress in once more becoming "The Greatest Warrior in the Realms" again. Hmmm... He's not trying to become an Immortal is he? :P I seem to recall one of the methods of ascension was to become some kind of paragon, and start from level 1 a few times... Oh I'm not explaining that too well - it was in the old Basic Dungeons and Dragons Gold Immortals book.... And it had something to do with switching classes, so maybe not. :) Personally, it's not something I could live with. I've had characters getting so powerful that the game ended, but I've left those characters behind - their stories told to conclusion. (Except in a few instances, for example: where bad decisions lead the character down a path I did not wish to follow... I still feel bad about it to this day, and while the DM let me resolve it in another game (another character of mine "rescued"/"redeemed" her), it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth to think about what happened.) I explain it in this question. "A horde of orcs are coming at you. Do you..." A. Flee in terror B. Run to find some cover C. Try to move to defensive position in hopes of repelling them D. Laugh If the answer is D, then I don't want you at my games. Average Swordsmen and Mooks are dangerous at all levels in my games. You can still kill plenty of them but they're a threat that should never be shrugged off. :) Well my answer would be C. Even the most powerful swordsman can be overcome by sheer numbers - and what's to say that some of those orcs don't have character classes? :P (Chances are, in a game I or other DMs in the group run, there's bound to be some that aren't what they seem.) Raistlin was granted peace by Paladine. Later, it turns out he became a Demigod who found Krynn when no one else could. Thanks, I was trying to remember what his ultimate fate was... But it doesn't change the fact that he's no longer a "PC" in the world. ;) So while he may have been an exception for a time, he still ended up being removed from the world. Of course, I don't think the level limit for Krynn applies any more. I gave half because it was good to reward ingenuity. ;-) Fair enough. :) Actually, the Zhents use drugs and slaves to do that from the start in my games. ;-) Heh. Well, the Zhents don't try to be anything other than they are. Selling drugs and slaves only works for those who are already corrupt. On the other hand, the Thayans use a velvet glove, coated with an addictive substance that makes people keep coming back to them, so to speak. That way they get power over them - good and evil alike. Mystra wants magic in the hands of RESPONSIBLE wielders. Magic is an uncontrollable, unpredictable, mysterious, and powerful force. It changes people to use it and drives individuals who look at Spell books without the proper training irrevocably insane. A miscasting can level a village. Suffice to say, its why Halruaa and Netheril freak people out. Maybe so, but magical items are not the same as being able to cast spells. And I don't think it says anywhere in the rules that a non-spell caster reading a spell book will drive them insane. And a miscasting can level a village? Only if the spell is a powerful one. I like him because he allows me to vary the Tech Level a bit. And I don't like him for exactly the same reason. ;) You convinced me, I just didn't think too much of the decision's need like you. :-) *hugs Myrmeen* I'm just very protective of her. :P ;) Actually, given it was 1997 when I first detailed my Halruaa. I believe a better point is "Ugh, can't the Realms just be the Realms? Must it be Mystara and Final Fantasy too?" Okay, okay... Sorry for the Eberron crack. :) I liked FF VII, but never got to finish it, and watched my other half playing FF X and FF X-2... And as worlds I liked them (since I believe 7 and 10 are set in different worlds) - but I wouldn't want to see parts of it incorporated into the Realms. For me, an elven 20 year old should be about the size of a human ten year old. I don't mind the slow aging. A lot has to do with biology and I don't see why a twenty year old with the body of a child should be interested in girls or physically aggressive etc. Even if they're mentally developed far better than human children. The thing that gets me is this image - a 10 year old elf child still in nappies. Even Ed says that elves age similarly to humans, at least until the point that they stop. The reason they don't get out into the world sooner is because of social and cultural thoughts about what defines an adult, not because they're not physically mature before 100. (Plus mentally they are teenagers for a long time, which would be hell, I'm sure, for their parents!) Well, sadly, the campaign didn't get very far before 4E was announced and Grand History of the Realms came out. Suffice to say, my players were very interested in doing a Vampire the Masquerade game too, which meant that I had to scrap a lot of my plans or switch them 100 years in the future. Why? Couldn't you just stick to the current timeline and let the world develop naturally when you got back to it? However, cracking over my DM's notebook. My ideas for the relationship after the marriage went something like this. My DM and I had some issues we had to turn to Ed Greenwood over to resolve of all things, especially on his obligations as Prince-Consort. Charlie's Notes on the Relationship <snip> There's some good stuff there. :) Sounds like it could have been an interesting game. :) Honestly, I felt vaguely dirty about the whole thing even with the Greenwood stamp of approval. I'm still not sure what the kids names were or I'll be incorporating them post-Spell plague since Fuji is still wandering around Abeir-Toril and currently defending Cormyr yet again (worst Baron ever). Why is that? The Knights of Samular and the Radiant Heart plus Harpers are the random Jedi Knights in the background of Attack of the Clones or the 00 Agents that always get killed before Bond steps in. Good doesn't lose predominantly in the confrontations with Good vs. Evil, it's just the Zhents and other bad guys give as good as they get. It's why the Zhentariam and Red Wizards are SUPER-Villains as opposed to just villains. Mostly confronting slaver rings, pirates, and Thieves' Guilds, they just kick ass. I see, but the trouble is, trouble happens even then the PCs aren't on the scene. How do you explain why the world isn't completely under the heel of evil? For every one plot the thwart, there's a hundred more that they can't be there to stop. Don't get too problematic. The player characters have already turned Sarevok's beating the armies of Cormyr to pieces into an even fight, have already killed Volumax the Demigod of Shar, saved an entire planet from falling under Bane's control in Planescape, and will probably end up defeating the following groups.... Gerrti Olafsdotter and the Giant Armies of the North Xvim the Despot Gargauth Hellgate Keep (which hasn't fallen yet in my games) The Lich Queen of the Githyanki Plus, they'll probably release Mystra and start magic's recovery. Suffice to say, our heroes will single handedly (if such can be applied to an adventuring party) turn the tide against evil and once more restore good and magic to the world. When evil gets its ass throughly handed to them, it's usually by PCs. That's a lot on their plates. How are they going to find the time to do all of that and be successful? Bad guys don't wait for the good guys to be on the scene to enact their plans. I'm a big fan of these games. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080225a I haven't managed to read through that article yet, so I can't really give my opinion. :)
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 07:29 PM	Hello Stormie! I'm almost done with my first draft of the book to send to you! Hmmm... He's not trying to become an Immortal is he? I seem to recall one of the methods of ascension was to become some kind of paragon, and start from level 1 a few times... Oh I'm not explaining that too well - it was in the old Basic Dungeons and Dragons Gold Immortals book.... And it had something to do with switching classes, so maybe not. Fuji is the Ex-Chosen of Shar, so he's already immortal. I made him about ten years ago and I have a very sentimental attachment to the character, he's not the most original character in the world being almost a totally generic Ryu "study to improve my skills" type character at generation but he grew from that blank slate. He's weathered Time of Troubles, Tuigan Horde, the Return of Shade, The Death of King Azoun, the Return of Bane, and now the Spell Plague. Personally, it's not something I could live with. I've had characters getting so powerful that the game ended, but I've left those characters behind - their stories told to conclusion. (Except in a few instances, for example: where bad decisions lead the character down a path I did not wish to follow... I still feel bad about it to this day, and while the DM let me resolve it in another game (another character of mine "rescued"/"redeemed" her), it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth to think about what happened.) I've left a lot of characters behind but it's probably because Fuji is half-archetype that I'm able to keep returning to the character. If Kane the Monk didn't exist in the Realms, then I'd say Fuji was the Forgotten Realms-616 version of Kane from Kung Fu. Just wandering Faerun, kicking ass, and saving lives. and I'd love to hear more about the story if it isn't a painful one. Actually, sometimes I have to take a break from Fuji because the character is essentially depressing. No matter how I've RPGed him, ultimately it turns back to the fact he'll never be a normal person thanks to Shar's touch and must watch all he loves turn to dust. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYOE_b4aYD0 So, the story never really finishes until he's dead but sometimes I also need a character who can change more than Fuji might. Well my answer would be C. Even the most powerful swordsman can be overcome by sheer numbers - and what's to say that some of those orcs don't have character classes? (Chances are, in a game I or other DMs in the group run, there's bound to be some that aren't what they seem.) Well, I wrestled with the idea for sometime anyway. It did feel like "cheating" but I tend to think M&M's prepared me for it. If Batman is pretty much the same as he was in the 1930s after a million missions, I could live with it for Fuji. Heh. Well, the Zhents don't try to be anything other than they are. Selling drugs and slaves only works for those who are already corrupt. On the other hand, the Thayans use a velvet glove, coated with an addictive substance that makes people keep coming back to them, so to speak. That way they get power over them - good and evil alike. Very good, I just think it's important not to have too much "concept overlap." I actually made the Iron Throne a Zhent off-shoot (absorbing all the Cyricists from Fzoul's organization into the Demon worshiping group) like in the Baldur's Gate novel because I didn't like ANOTHER evil cartel of merchants when we had a perfectly servicible one. Maybe so, but magical items are not the same as being able to cast spells. And I don't think it says anywhere in the rules that a non-spell caster reading a spell book will drive them insane. I'm exagerrating but I do tend to make magic more dangerous than it is in canon. Okay, okay... Sorry for the Eberron crack. I liked FF VII, but never got to finish it, and watched my other half playing FF X and FF X-2... And as worlds I liked them (since I believe 7 and 10 are set in different worlds) - but I wouldn't want to see parts of it incorporated into the Realms. Ten years of the Realms makes some things different than you'd do now. ;-) The thing that gets me is this image - a 10 year old elf child still in nappies. Even Ed says that elves age similarly to humans, at least until the point that they stop. The reason they don't get out into the world sooner is because of social and cultural thoughts about what defines an adult, not because they're not physically mature before 100. (Plus mentally they are teenagers for a long time, which would be hell, I'm sure, for their parents!) Actually, they handled it pretty straight in OOTS. Roy discovers his 19 year old Infant brother in Mount Celestia. He discovers his brother has spent most of the past two decades playing with blocks since there's no hurry to grow up. ;-) Why? Couldn't you just stick to the current timeline and let the world develop naturally when you got back to it? You probably missed this element of my posts when the 4E controversy first started or it was simply lost in the deluge. I'd actually left the Forgotten Realms forums for several months by that point. I was back because my players wanted to play in the New Realms Apparently, they had grown weary of our FR game which had gotten honestly progressively sillier as I'd run out of ideas and burned out at one point. So, we needed to take a break and frankly, I wrote *THE END* at the end of it. I was pretty sure that our game had finally ended but the prospect of a New Generation of heroes, a totally changed world, and massive upheaval of the gods caused them to approach me and ask to run another game of 616. They had no interest in our further timeline. (expects, Storm Silverhand to stare :twitch: because the idea of long time players being pleased by 4E is against all the laws of gods and man) Why is that? I worry about the Munchkin elements of it, really. Being Alusair's consort while also having a live in relationship with her exotic Mage. I see, but the trouble is, trouble happens even then the PCs aren't on the scene. How do you explain why the world isn't completely under the heel of evil? For every one plot the thwart, there's a hundred more that they can't be there to stop. Pretty much, the PCs are there for 90% of the Big Damn plots. You can be sure that destiny will somehow see the players characters there when Tiamat is going to open her gateway to physically enter the world, that the Knights of Shadowdale will somehow have found their way into Unther at that time. This is another reason why I lowered the levels in the campaign, S_SH. Since there's not 10,000 19th-20th level Archmages in the Forgotten Realms but more like 20, the majority of problems in the world are common villainy than SUPER-villainy. The PCs are like one of 2 or 3 adventuring HERO parties in the world as opposed to mercenaries, Harpers, or Knights but there's only like 2-3 James Bond style "Conquer the World" style plots every year. And that's between LONG periods of peace thanks to the PCs efforts. Most of the time, Ssass Tam is building up his forces for centuries through mundane means before he tries something big and dramatic. That's a lot on their plates. How are they going to find the time to do all of that and be successful? Bad guys don't wait for the good guys to be on the scene to enact their plans Part of it is from being pro-active. The PCs jump from one area to another doing their heroism and then move onto the next place to fight the forces of darkness, often with very little time to rest. Plus, a lot of their problems are actively tied together. Defeating Gertti Olafsdotter in the North will help the problems in the South as Sarevok is supplying them weapons in exchange for Giant Troops to help his fight in Cormyr against the Crown. But yes, often times, the players are fighting multiple evils at once and feeling overwhelmed. In the end, that's when I usually give them a big damn victory. The destruction of Volumvax resulted in the saving of one of the player's unborn children, his Princess of Cormyr lover, the death of a powerful agent of Gargauth/Shar, and the defeat of a major force behind the evils going on in Neverwinter. Plus, they have the satisfaction of killing a Demigod. You might ask The_Mess how he feels about my DMing style but I actually provided them a "Scorecard" like in Baldur's Gate for all the various subquests and sidequests they're currently on.
The_Mess 02-28-08, 09:21 PM	Hmmm... He's not trying to become an Immortal is he? :P Oh, he already did that. But the really annoying thing is how he yells, "There can be only one!" after every fight. I seem to recall one of the methods of ascension was to become some kind of paragon, and start from level 1 a few times... Oh I'm not explaining that too well - it was in the old Basic Dungeons and Dragons Gold Immortals book.... And it had something to do with switching classes, so maybe not. :) Oh, I keep trying to get everyone to play the *good* version of D&D. Back before the rules got wimpy! When men were made-up men, women were non-existant, and you rolled 3d6 for each stat, didn't even get to decide which number went to which, AND LIKED IT! I've got a Rules 'Cyclopedia and Keep on the Borderlands right here! Heh. Well, the Zhents don't try to be anything other than they are. Selling drugs and slaves only works for those who are already corrupt. That depends on how you sugarcoat it. Many nations accept slavery as a matter of course, and one man's drug is another man's herbal supplement. "I've got something that will clear that headache right up." And I don't think it says anywhere in the rules that a non-spell caster reading a spell book will drive them insane. "My gods, the spelling! The spelling!" *gets out red pen* And a miscasting can level a village? Only if the spell is a powerful one. Lisa: "I'll start with this one in the back. It's called Dragonslave. Cool. I can make Filia stop eating my money!" Alternate joke. (http://www.vanvonhunter.com/vvh107.html) (since I believe {FF} 7 and 10 are set in different worlds) All of the final fantasies are set on different worlds, not counting the explicit sequels: X & X-2, VII and several spin offs. The only sneaking one is that FF 12 is on the same world as FF: Tactics. I see, but the trouble is, trouble happens even then the PCs aren't on the scene. How do you explain why the world isn't completely under the heel of evil? Trouble follows us. I doubt anybody likes to see us coming. It guarantees disaster is about to happen. Funny that. :-) That's a lot on their plates. How are they going to find the time to do all of that and be successful? Bad guys don't wait for the good guys to be on the scene to enact their plans. And really bad things happen to nations while we aren't looking. I haven't managed to read through that article yet, so I can't really give my opinion. :) "I never read a book before reviwing it. It prejudices a man so." - Sydney Smith You might ask The_Mess how he feels about my DMing style but I actually provided them a "Scorecard" like in Baldur's Gate for all the various subquests and sidequests they're currently on. Well, sometimes the number of active plots do seem to get seriously piled up, but they usually start pairing down about the same time they get unmanageable. Lisa: "Don't listen to them! GET ME OUT OF HERE! These people are freaks!"
Charles Phipps 02-28-08, 11:14 PM	Eilistraee (The Dark Maiden, The Huntress, The Celestial Archer, The Unicorn Queen) Greater Goddess of Ysgard http://www.freewebs.com/houseofvrammyr/wp_Ladyaq2.jpg Portfolio: Archery, Autumn (Disputed), Good Drow, Half-Elves, Hunting (disputed), Pegasus, Rangers, Outcasts Aliases: Art'emis, Bridget, Ehlonna, Ehlenestra, Khalreshaar,Mielikki, The Simbul Alignment: Chaotic Good Superior: None Allies: Animal Lords, Gwaeron Windstrom, Chauntaea, Lathander, Lliira, Lurue, Mystra (formerly), The Seldarine, Selune, Silvanus Enemies: Lolth, Mask, Malar, Shevarash, Xvim Domains: Animals, Good, Knowledge, Plants, Travel Favored Weapon: Longbow Eilistraee is a far more sly deity that most people would suspect her of being. Once a minor goddess of the Drow that was long abandoned, she took up the role of a defeated Interloper goddess whose clergy had long since passed into darkness and secretly built up her worshiper base. Only recently, with the rising prominence of the Good Drow in the Realms has the goddess revealed herself to the rest of the Pantheon as having 'always' been one of their most trusted colleagues. Eilistraee has a multitude of forms with a beautiful human Druidess of the Forest, a Nymph, A Half-Elf Ranger, and her nude Dark Elven form being the most popular she's known to choose from. Eilistraee is a goddess that patronizes ectastic communion with her deity and known to have a multitude of affairs with mortals. While omnisexual like most gods, she has a decided preference for her female clergy. History and Relationships: Eilistraee is the daughter of Corellon Latherian with Lolth, the Queen of Chaos. She was conceived from before that being became the enemy of all beings that live and ever shall be. Eilistraee was the eldest of two siblings with her brother Vhaeraun being slightly younger than her. When Lolth revolted and started the Second Chaos War, Eilistraee voluntarilly took up arms against her mother and slew thousands of her horrid Chaos creatures. Legends vary but the Elvish version of the tale suggests that Eilistraee was banished by the Seldarine for failing to see her mother's treachery and other versions claim that she was duped into aiding the side of chaos, villifies her, or outright claims her to be a fabrication. The truth is that Eilistraee lost the trust of some of the most Chaotic minded members of their ranks and was cast out by the decree of Labelas. She cannot return to Arborea until Lolth is destroyed. The cult of Eilistraee, before the Time of Troubles, was almost non-existent. Qilue, despite her best efforts, ultimately had failed to win any friendship from either the Surface Elves or the Drow below and they were almost a non-entity in the Underdark. It was only the powerful cult of Mielikki and her other faces amongst humans along with mixed bloods that allowed her to remain a danger to Lolth. Even that was almost finished when the Time of Troubles, Drizzt Do'Urden's successful humiliation of Lolth, and the later Silence resulted in many priestesses becoming aware that the goddess was not so all powerful as she claimed. The Spell Plague has been reasonably good to the Goddess as Rangers have won much respect in the meantime. The destruction of Selvetarm and Kiaransalee by her maneuvering briefly weakened her to the point that Vhaeraun impersonated her for a short while but ultimately served in her favor. Lolth has achieved Greater God status but, to her horror, both of her children are almost her equal. If both could put aside their differences then they would almost certainly send the Queen of Chaos back to the darkness she was spawned from. Post the Spell-Plague; Drow are able to move reasonably freely in parts of the Surface world where one is allowed to be 'evil.' Skullport, Luskan, Westgate, and Netheril all allow the Drow to move about as honorable citizens. There are even sections of Baldur's Gate where they may act. Such places almost invariably invite murder and open battle with elves with elves but it is the first sign that the Dark Maiden is gaining ascendancy over her mother. Unfortunately, it has equally benefited her brother as well whom runs the risk of becoming more powerful than she if he ever succeeds in destroying Cyric. Aside from ancient Elvish rivals, Eilistraee has developed an ancient and bitter enimity with Malar. The God of Predators in the Realm disputes the portfolio of Hunting and Autumn with her. His desire to wipe Elf-Kind clean off the face of Abeir-Toril with Xvim to replace with his own favored races is something that is particularly targeted against her kind. They have had many clashes over the past and while she now has the advantage, that conflict may ultimately be lost for her enemies are also more powerful than she. Eilistraee has one final enemy in Shevarash. Shevarash hates the Drow with a furious passion and considers their slowly gaining acceptance a personal enemy. As the secret patron of the Eldreth Veluuthra, his power grows while his nature slowly descends to becoming purely evil. With his growing power as Elves find Orcs and Drow amongst humans living openly, he may weaken her enough for either of her stronger enemies to eventually destroy her. When Eilistraee rides a mount, it is actually the Unicorn Goddess providing an avatar. Dogma: Nature is to be experienced and life to be enjoyed. One must commune with the land and world around thee in order to truly be alive. Slay an animal with nothing but one's skin to the wild to know the nature of how the world is then dance, and make love. Protect the wilderness and the innocent with your life. Do not suffer the hatreds of others but protect in kind to the aggressions of others. Never forget kindness or friendship but remember it always.
Storm_Silverhand 02-29-08, 03:18 AM	Heya, Eilistraee (The Dark Maiden, The Huntress, The Celestial Archer, The Unicorn Queen) Greater Goddess of Ysgard Will reply to your other post later, but just wanted to say that this take on Eilistraee is not bad at all. (I like it, just the sort of thing I could probably live with.) I assume by "The Simbul" you mean the ancient Yuirwood deity, rather than Alassra Shentrantra Silverhand? :) I'd be interested in knowing what her relationship is to Sharess (who is also Zandilar from the same pantheon). :) You also have Lliira as one of her aliases, but you have a write up of Lliira earlier in the thread... Have you changed your mind? Are they the same deity? Or is that in error?
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 03:29 AM	It was meant to be in allies. and yes, it's the Yuirwood deity. I felt she fit much better than Labelas. As for Sharess in this Realm, the two deities share a friendly and pleasant relationship though not particularly deep one. Eli and Zandilar were lovers and patroness of female relationships but the merged deity is slightly less amicable due to her strong city based ties. Much of Zandilar's elven nature has been drowned out by two subsequent rebirths. Nevertheless, in the Yuirwood they maintain their ancient roles amongst the growing populous returning to the Old Way.
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 01:44 PM	OOC: I thought I'd share this version by popular request. Please anyone note this is just a fictional take and not meant to represent anything remotely resembling RL-religious views. Storm_Silverhand may just wish to outright not read it. IC: Bahamut (The Beginning and End, The Father God, The Platnium Dragon) Greater God of Mount Celestia Portfolio: Command, Creation, Dragons, Fishing, Pardon, Wise Judgement, Wrath Aliases: Ahura, Behemoth, El'i, Draco Paladine, Jazirian, Marduk (In trust), Mikail, Quetzalcoatl (in trust) Alignment: Lawful Good Superior: Ao Allies: Ilmater, Lathander, Nobanion, Torm, Tyr (when recovered) Enemies: Asmodeus, The Dark Triad, Mersshaulk, Tiamat, Set Symbol: The Platnium Dragon, Metal Tablets Domains: Law, Good, Healing, Nobility, Protection History and Relationships: After Amaunator, there was Shar and Selune created as Ao parted the Night into two seperate beings that reflected its qualities. Ao then created a being embodying all the various thoughts and ideas that filled its head. This was Io, a reflection of his consiousness that he soon split into the beings Bahamut and Tiamat. From that day forth, Bahamut has been a tireless defender of Ao despite the fact that the spirit of the universe needs no protection and least of all from a being that he could create a million of with a wave of his hand or equally remove. Bahamut's most famous activity is probably his championship during the revolt of Asmodeus where the Platnium Dragon is believed to have been the one to have cast down that being into the Nine Hells (though some legends attribute this to other gods like Amaunator). This casting down has not been forgotten by Asmodeus and Bahamut is the sponsor for countless clergies focused on the eradication of Devils wherever they may be found. Bahamut is a harsh and temperamental deity that holds paramount agreements and the decrees that he makes. Bizarrely, the deity also holds himself distant from his faith. Followers are expected to interpret and serve the deity on their own without guidance and he leaves well enough alone unless something truly evil occurs. Unfortunately, this has actually resulted in Bahamut's faithful being corrupted by outside forces or even martyring his own champions when their heresies become mired in tradition. Likewise, the deity punishes severely many infractions while equally being quick to forgive. The only thing he never forgives is invoking him for unjust decrees or persecution, in which their souls are said to be burned away by Dragonfire upon death. Dragons have a somewhat easier time with Ao than human beings due to the ancient reptiles understanding the god's moods somewhat better than most. Nevertheless, it is problematic that most tend not to be very religious and prefer to consider the god more or less the absolute epitome of their own race as opposed to something entirely removed from them. Only Gold Dragons are especially reverent towards Bahamut as Silver Dragons find their own deity occasionally too stern. This is despite that Bahamut is often seized by flights of fancy and compassion that motivate him more than wrath. Bahamut's return to Abeir-Toril after imprisonment during the Time of Troubles has lead to a resurgence of his faith in Unther as well as that god taking a slightly more prominent role in the Western part of Faerun. Bahamut is loathe to become embroiled in the affairs of Lathander's territories or other gods he respects but the recent sense of Asmodeus in the Helm affair is enough to have him emerge. Torm looks upon Bahamut as something of a mentor figure; even though the knightly god disregards the Dragon God's counsel as often as he follows it. Nobanion, Torm, and Bahamut have formed something of a new Triad during Tyr's imprisonment. Bahamut's faith is unlikely to grow very prominent in Western Faerun due to its focus on a single patron deity but the god's place in the 'New Triad' is much more popular and will likely continue to eat away at the Old Triad's worship. Bahamut is similar enough to Tyr, albeit somewhat more moody, that most are able to make the transition without difficulty. Also, a Dragon is an easy and potent symbol of authority Realms-wise. Bahamut's original worship is mostly underground and tribally practiced in the Southland but fits well with the harsh existence along with starkly good and evil beliefs of it's people. It will continue to grow underground in Unther and probably Chessenta as an alternative to Tiamat worship. Worshipers of Bahamut are expected to be scrupulously honest individuals, charitable, pious, and law abiding. They're also expected to rise up and slay any King or monarch that betrays the ways of their god grossly (though this is pretty broadly interpreted or underplayed in various lands for obvious reasons). Most of his Holy Knights in Western Faerun are former worshipers of Tyr with those tending to favor Law over Justice gravitating towards Bahamut despite that god's own preferences for good. The Knights of Holy Judgment that retain their Paladin abilities have almost wholesale converted at this point with the Knights of Samular now split down the middle and on the verge of open war. Bahamut is not a great believer in evangelism, despite some sentiments of faithful, and only believes it should be performed in areas of great evil. The god has too much experience where innocents are slain in his name and the resulting shame to ever advocate it in the Realms. Instead, Bahamut's faith is largely passed down by worshiper's inquiring about it or from parent to child. The only exceptions are in the lands of Set and Tiamat where the faithful actively seek to spread the faith under the two god's noses. Notably, Bahamut was no friend to either the Mulhorandi or Untheric pantheons while both inhabited Abeir-Toril. The source of the enimity between Horus-Re and Bahamut was never explained but it seems to be have been a result of a conflict between their worshipers that went ridiculously out of hand. Bahamut actually slew outright several Untheric deities, all of them deserving it, before Gilgeam drove his worship underground. The only Untheric deity Bahamut respected was Marduk and the Platnium Dragon holds that god's worshipers in trust until he can be returned from banishment. Ironically, Set and Tiamat are the only remaining Mulhorandi gods of either of those pantheons and both are Bahamut's most hated foes after Asmodeus. Also, Bahamut's focus on being the only god to be worshiped by his followers has occasionally come back to bite the deity in the tail. While still ostenibly allies, Lathander and Bahamut still are vexed at one another. On a distant world from Toril, the worship of the two of them became utterly intertwined as most of the Sun God's practices and rituals were incorporated wholesale in Bahamut's faith yet no acknowledgement was given to Lathander. Other places have Bahamut's religion effectively merged with many of the myths and legends about Ao. Bahamut is not a deity that desires to be worshiped by all and has thus far resisted taking over the worshiper's of Marduk and Quetzalcoatl in Unther or Maztica as a matter of honor. Dogma: Worship no other god than Bahamut for his is the way and there is no equal to him. Obey the Law of Bahamut and know that it is inerrant and Eternal like the Dragon. Do not follow the laws of wicked kings who do not follow Bahamut's ways nor confuse the ways of them with the Dragon. Wage war upon the followers of evil gods and drive them away. Be merciful, kind, and compassionate but unerring in one's service. Endure the world for it is a harsh place and Bahamut does not favor weaklings. Be generous to the weak and suffering for their striving is something that Bahamut admires.
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 04:29 PM	Filia, FYI for those who didn't get Mess' jokes, is our parties Dragonborn [Gold Dragon Bloodline] Cohort. She's a Cleric of Sharess and a Half-Dragon from before 4E came around. One of the running gags is that Dragons horde piles of treasure and gemstones because they go into hibernation for growth spurts with those proving to be the most delicious metals that they can absorb as well as nutricious. Thus its a joke that Filia is always snacking on the parties' treasure and leaving them broke. It's especially problematic for the Chosen of Mask in the group. She's based on the Slayers character. http://www.absoluteanime.com/slayers/filia.gif In addition to the plot above, we've recently adopted three Red Dragon Hatchlings that Fuji and Lisa intend to raise to the path of goodness (Lisa more to the path of exploiting).
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 06:26 PM	DM's Note: Gond is such an unpopular deity with many, mostly due to the "Tinker Gnome" stereotypes that he brings, that I decided to create my own variant to bring him more into line with what I think was appropriate for the Realms. I welcome anyone who might want to use this version Gond for their own campaigns as an alternative to the canon one. Gond (The Artificer, The Forgemaster, The Fire and the Spark, The Wonder Maker) Greater God of Arcadia Portfolio: Artifice, Craftsmanship, Heat, Perfection, Smithing, Weapons, Work Aliases: Atrus, Onatar, Hephaestus, Sethlans, Vulcan Alignment: Lawful Neutral Allies: Azuth, Garl Glittergold, Helm (formerly), Moradin, Oghma, Sune, Tempus, Tymora Enemies: Kossuth, Mask, Talos Symbol: The Anvil Domains: Artifice, Creation, Fire, Strength Worshiper's Alignment: LG, NG, CG, LN, N, CN, LE, NE Gond (GO-nd) is a god that is worshiped throughout much of the Realms by all those who favor hard work. While the Gnomes of Lantan and certain humans of Halruaa or Tilverton revere the Wonder Maker as a mad scientist possessed by the Creative Spark, most people in the Realms treat Gond as a much more subdued jobsworth. His formal church is a harsh one that produces individuals whom are unafraid of getting their hands dirty or working until the sweat falls off their faces. Gond creates many lasting works of beauty but equally ugly things of great utility. Gond has been known to appear as a chaotic and mad scientist and a Gnome or a subdued philosopher-thinker but these are relatively new additions to his avatar form. The most constant is a hairy, huge, and burly red-bearded man that is lame in one foot. Gond is usually dressed in a forge apron and often speaks with hot blasts of heat coming from his mouth. The god will often have a hammer or one of his creations in hand. Gond has a fondness for beautiful females and those whom sincerely treat him well can find great gifts at their door. Bizarrely, this tends to attract the ire of Sune. Gond is typically worshiped by idols, which is a fairly uncommon practice in the Western Realms. History and Relationships: Gond is from the same pantheon that Sune hails from, though she often refuses to acknowledge it as the Forgemaster has gone through several changes since then. Some legends hold that the deities were once married but if it was ever the case then that union has since been dissolved. Bizarrely, quite a few legends have sprung up about said deity attempting to attract Tymora's attention. Gond inhabits a large volcano in the heart of Arcadia that is filled with portals to secondary workshops in Acheron, Concordant Opposition, The Elemental Plane of Earth, The Elemental Plane of Fire, and Ysgard. There used to be a workshop in Arborea but apparently he's fully severed his ties with that plane due to his latest spat with Sune. The volcano is inhabited by Dwarves, Giants, Gnomes, and human workers that have been selected from the multitude of Gond's faithful to serve at his hand. Gond cares almost nothing for the way that his devices are put to use since he holds the idea that useful objects will invariably cause more good in the long term that the short sighted ways that evil men might put them too. Gond is not so blinded as to produce objects that will help in the total ascendence or evil or destroy the world, however. It's not that difficult to argue Gond into creating something 'challenging' though since the creative impulse moves the god far more than good sense might have. Those who believe Gond is an enemy of magic have mistaken the god for he is actually a close associate of Azuth. He has an entire class of specialty magicians called Artificers that revere him above all others. Instead, Gond is not particularly impressed by magic and considers it little more than another tool to be used. Gond has long maintained that armor and arrows have decided wars far more often than spell casting. Gond is one of the few deities to transcend racial boundaries. Dwarves have been known to give worship freely unto him as well as gnomes without blaspheming either of their respective pantheons. Gond numbers the heads of both pantheons amongst his closest friends and they frequently have been known to hold competitions on whom can create the most beautiful or potent of objects. Gond has a keen interest in heroism and the champions that it produces. Thus, Gond is a strong ally of Tempus and frequently commissions weapons for that God's chosen warriors. Gond will often have Tempus' servants in the winged Valkyrie deliver incredibly potent armor or weapons to those whom are about to embark on epic quests. While Gond is not responsible for even a half of a percent of the magical items on Faerun, his creations are numbered amongst the most legendary of objects by them. Despite Gond's affiable neutrality in most conflicts, he has two dire enemies amongst the gods. Talos has made it a point to destroy anything that falls into his hands and that includes knowledge of creation. Gond's loathing of the god means that his priests are often required to harm unto his faithful whenever possible. Likewise, Gond hates the god Kossuth and wishes to see that being destroyed. Gond believes that fire should be subjugated and placed fully under his control for the good of man while Kossuth believes it must be set free to run wild. Dogma: Perfection of the flesh is transitive and unimportant. Fundamentally, time eats away at men without mercy. However, Perfection of steel and the creation can last many generations. Perfection is also something that is in the eye of the beholder for there is beauty in usefulness, simplicity, and practicality as well as gaudy ornamentation. A craftsman should always strive to improve the quality of his work and skills. Gond's champions should never shy away from difficulty or adversity in the pursuit of a truly remarkable object.
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 07:55 PM	Risen Sun Heresy (The Supreme Faith, The Holy Universal Church, The Light of the Supreme God) Portfolio: See Lathander Alignment: Lawful Neutral Members: Lathander Allies: (claimed) Chauntaea, Garagos, Selune, Jergal (Kelemvor), Shar Enemies: All Interloper Gods, Mystra Symbol: A Golden Solar Disc Domains: Law, Nobility Worshipers Alignment: NG, LG, LN, N, LE, NE The Risen Sun Heresy is something of a black eye on the whole of the Lathander faith as it began in Sembia and since has started spreading like wildfire over the majority of the Heartlands and is only likely to grow as the uncertainty of the Spell Plague has left many longing for absolutes. The Risen Sun Heresy plays Amaunator at the top of the celestial hierarchy as the King of the Gods while deriding the rest of the faiths of Faerun. It bears some superficial similarity to both Lathanderism and the original Amaunator Church but it is different in numerous radical ways. While the majority of it's members are not evil, most of them are close minded and radical in their beliefs. History and Relationships: Daelegoth Orndeir codified the various ideas of the Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun before the advent of the Spell Plague where he was assassinated by Shades from Netheril. His martyrdom backfired and immediately resulted in many beings starting to view the Shades as nothing more than incarnations of evil. Daelegoth Orndeir's successor, Keltis Doranthor, proved to be a highly successful rabble rouser but also a repulsive human being in most respects. Keltis was a bigot against non-humans and had a similar distaste against magic that would leak well into his writings that were spread by printing press throughout the Heartlands. His hand-trained acolytes were all deeply indoctrinicated into his views and sent to likewise spread the worship of Amaunator amongst the faithful. According to Keltis Doranthor, the Spell Plague was the result of the innate evil of magic. The death and madness of so many wizards has helped blacken their reputation in many places and the Risen Sun heresy takes this one step further. The heresy encourages individuals to actively abandon the practices of magic while covertly or publicly employing individuals to hunt down and slay those whom practice "Godless Sorcery." Likewise, the Risen Sun holds that there are only the gods of Faerun that must be tolerated. All interloper gods are to be given no worship or succor by any right-thinking Lathanderite. The only tolerated gods are those of the original Netherese pantheon that are held up as the "True Gods." The exception being Mystra whom the Risen Sun teaches was an abomination that never should have existed and was destroyed by Amaunator. Followers are encouraged to drive out the false believers and convert their temples to Amaunator's worship or one of his 'lesser' god servants. The Risen Sun has, of course, not proven very popular with Demihumans as their own gods are incompatible with the world view that Amaunator's faithful teach. While the Church includes many moderates, the strong indication is that they are not "Of Toril" and really shouldn't belong on this world that was made for humans. Only the most evil and twisted members of the faith actively voice this view, however. Any Demihuman or Humanoid who wishes to join the faith must renounce his previous Racial Pantheon completely. Amaunator's faithful draw their magics from lingering remnants of the Dead God plus Lathander in the manner of Ur-Priests. Lathander, openly, despises the Risen Sun heresy and considers it an abomination against his beliefs. However, he's not yet ready to lay fire and brimstone back upon the faithful since he considers them misguided rather than actively evil. Others are afraid that Lathander's lack of action will ultimately lead to the return of the intolerant and heartless Netherese Sun God whom no good man would prefer to the Morninglord. Dogma: There is a divine order to the world. There is Amaunator, his consorts and lesser gods, then the Church then the Kings of Mankind then the peasantry. The heads of the household as appointed during weddings and by age are also to be respected so long as they all follow the will of Amaunator. One should acknowledge the supremacy of the Sun God's scripture in all things and understand that his word is inviolate and unchanging. All gods that are not of Toril are abberations and to be fought. Magic is evil and fundamentally a violation of Amaunator's order. No spell caster should be given succor or aid until they abandon the evil arts that brought down the Spell Plague.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-01-08, 10:53 PM	Dogma: Beauty of the flesh is transitive and unimportant. Fundamentally, time eats away at men without mercy. However, beauty of steel and the creation can last many generations. Beauty is also something that is in the eye of the beholder for there is beauty in usefulness, simplicity, and practicality as well as gaudy ornamentation. A craftsman should always strive to improve the quality of his work and skills. Gond's champions should never shy away from difficulty or adversity in the pursuit of a truly remarkable object. Charles, I think your version of Gond is way more fixated on beauty than he should be, considering that beauty of any kind isn't one of his portfolios.
Charles Phipps 03-01-08, 10:57 PM	Charles, I think your version of Gond is way more fixated on beauty than he should be, considering that beauty of any kind isn't one of his portfolios. Beauty = Craftsmanship that you can be proud of. I probably should could have used other words but I felt it was important to highlight the appreciation that Gond has of his workmanship. It's why he lauds beauty but derides ornamentation.
GothicDan 03-02-08, 12:59 AM	He always seemed more about beauty in simplicity of design and efficiency, without being unappealing. Is that more what you're getting at? :)
Charles Phipps 03-02-08, 01:05 AM	I guess I overdid it a bit, but Gond is very much a god that reveres the idea of creation for its own sake. It's hard to get across the kind of mindset where a guy makes an AK-47 and says "A monument to the inherent loveliness of a properly made weapon."
GothicDan 03-02-08, 01:06 AM	As a scientist, I understand. There's actual theses about the fact that beauty has become paramount in physics and math - in that it not only predicts things accurately, but is both aesthetically pleasing (the equations are nice looking and easy) and the explanations are coherent.
Charles Phipps 03-02-08, 01:12 AM	Very good call. Yeah, I figure Gond is the kind of guy who would be pleased at a man making a Gold Rose that perfectly mimics most of the qualities of it. And equally impressed or moreso at the guy who constructs a much more efficient trebuchet. Both he'd call beautiful. It's the way that Sune and he both are similiar and different. Thanks for your thoughts. Ultimately, I feel this version just fits my Realms better than pure mad scientist Gond.
Storm_Silverhand 03-02-08, 05:53 PM	Heya, Storm_Silverhand may just wish to outright not read it. Meh, very meh. I guess I must be in a fairly mellow mood this morning, otherwise I think I'd be saying I hate it. I don't see why the other gods would tolerate a god that asks for people to worship only him - it's pretty unnatural to the way things work in Faerun. Plus, the last paragraph contradicts the first sentence in the dogma. ie: "Bahamut is not a deity that desires to be worshiped by all and has thus far resisted taking over the worshiper's of Marduk and Quetzalcoatl in Unther or Maztica as a matter of honor." and "Worship no other god than Bahamut for his is the way and there is no equal to him." (Emphasis mine.) As for the Risen Sun Heresy, I can't see why Lathander wouldn't have slapped it down already, and (again) I don't see why other gods would tolerate it.
Charles Phipps 03-02-08, 06:14 PM	"Worship no other god than Bahamut for his is the way and there is no equal to him." He's not an evangelist god. I.e. Bahamut doesn't want anyone worshiping him but his current worshipers and their descendants. Duh. :rolleyes: How did you miss that? Also, Ubato does the exact same thing. Frankly, Bane and Cyric also do the exact same thing. It's also a major component of the Triadic write-up I've already presented. But already Ubato, Cyric, and Bane are canonical examples of singular Patron Deity in action. As for the Risen Sun heresy, Lathander intends to slap it down. However, they're Ur-Priests. What exactly is he going to do? Remove their spells? :P Also, no offense, Storm but you're realize they're villains right? The Risen Sun heresy IS opposed by other gods and they attack it and probably LOSE. Which is why the PCs are required to fight the heresy. It's like saying "Why is the Cult of the Dragon tolerated?" Or why is Demon worship tolerated?
Meldread 03-02-08, 09:20 PM	I don't see why the other gods would tolerate a god that asks for people to worship only him - it's pretty unnatural to the way things work in Faerun. I actually had this problem awhile back and I had to take a deeper look at various belief systems to get some prospective. Faerun is largely Polytheistic - meaning that its citizens believe in and worship multiple gods who are assembled in a single (loosely aligned) pantheon. Each of the deities are largely associated with a common mythology (how they got to be in the pantheon). However, the problem in question - a single deity in the pantheon asking for worship above and beyond the others, including strict devotion that precludes all others - can either be a form of Monolatrism or Henotheism. Henotheist beliefs are characterized by a devotion to a single deity while accepting the existence of other deities who may also be worthy of worship. Monolatrism is very similar to Henotheism - in fact they are identical - they differ only on the point that, while they both worship a single deity and recognize the existence of others, those who practice Monolatry believe that their deity is the only deity worthy of worship. Cyric for example is a deity who encourages the practice of Monolatrism, though I do not believe it is an inherently evil trait for a deity to embrace. Lathander could also take on such a trait for example and I do not believe it would be out of place for him. I would also argue that Priests who worship the Faerunian Pantheon as a whole are either Henotheists or Kanthenothists. Kathenotheism is similar to Monolatrism and Henotheism, however a Kathenotist gives praise to other deities while maintaining his relationship with a single patron deity. In that way, a Priest of Ilmater may give a quick prayer to Umberlee or Auril when he enters their domain, but may otherwise give his complete and total devotion to his patron deity. I hope all that made sense.
Charles Phipps 03-02-08, 09:55 PM	Frankly, the concept of Patron Deity almost encourages the fact that most Faerunites tend to hold one deity exclusive above all others IMHO.
Meldread 03-03-08, 12:20 AM	Charles- You are right. However, I think it's a bit stupid and needs to be modified. Canonically the vast majority of the people living in Faerun (common folk) are polytheistic. This is what the lore assumes and how Ed describes it. However, with the Patron Deity rule and the way death is handled it virtually encourages (under threat of punishment) a Kathenotheist mindset that goes counter to the flavor and lore. I would keep the patron rule but look at it in terms of 'strong' and 'weak' devotion. In other words, the vast majority of the common people have a deity that they favor slightly more than others - for example, for farmers this might be Chauntea. They still give regular praise to other deities, even on a daily basis, but one particular deity just happens to hold a slightly higher place in their lives. This would be an example of a 'weak devotion' to a patron deity. On the other hand, you have 'strong devotion' to a patron deity in priests and clerics and those who are slightly more zealous in their faith. These folks regularly visit temples and shrines. They also tithe regularly, even if it means they have to give up some luxuries. These folks will be engaged in various levels of Kathenotheism, and if taken to extremes they could perhaps even embrace Henotheism or Monolatrism.
Charles Phipps 03-03-08, 01:00 AM	To be honest, it's one of the main reasons that I changed how the afterlife works in Faerun. It seems a bit bizarre to handle it any other way than the way Ed describes it. However, unlike Storm_Silverhand, just magically saying "Everyone is a Polytheist and all of the gods have dominion over their portfolios with no one really having anything resembling an evangelistic side" is far less fun to me.
Charles Phipps 03-03-08, 01:19 AM	Afterlife-616 According to the religious tenants of the Faerun Pantheon, all souls in the afterlife go to the Realm of Kelemvor upon their deaths. This is mostly true, as Kelemvor holds dominion over the majority of the Realm but Death Gods like Osiris and Labelas Enoreth are in charge of their own particular portions of the Fugue Plane despite the fact that they technically must pay homage to Kelemvor. Many of these 'lesser' Death Gods consider this recent command by Ao to be something of an affront and plot against Kelemvor despite how accomadating he's been. Unlike the canon FR, souls do not automatically ascend to their deity upon death but must all be judged by the Grim Keeper of souls or one of his many servants that dress like him for obvious reasons. Most followers never realize that they are not necessarilly being judged by Kelemvor himself for their deeds but one of his countless servants since they tend to be equally grand and impressive as humans can fathom. The souls are judged in accordance to a flexible standard that more or less corresponds to what they held dearest in life. The majority of souls are simply sent to their appropriate plane of alignment as a matter of course but particularly pious souls are allowed to be handed directly over to their deities realm. Thus, Lawful Good and Evil worshipers of Tempus find themselves in the blessed paradise of said god upon their deaths. Such piety carries with it a danger as they are subject to that deities standards as well. Kelemvor is a forgiving deity and tends to clue all but the most ignorant souls upon their god's true nature before he casts final judgement. Only the most stupid and ignorant tend to ignore Kelemvor's warnings that they are continuing heresy well into the afterlife. Quite a few few post-Death conversions have taken place with Lawful Good followers of evil deities finding themselves going to a land more appropriate to them. This has offended many gods who were used to Myrkul's more harsh judgements. Troublesome are the souls of those whom were impious and workers of great crimes against the gods. These souls are the ones that Kelemvor claims for himself as Myrkul once did. They are assigned to specific punishments for their hubris, often at the request of the deity's they have wronged. Priest killers, tomb robbers, oath breakers, and the like are all the kinds of individuals who find themselves never leaving the Fugue Plane. For some, this is actually better than the fate they might recieve in the Abyss or Nine Hells. Kelemvor's punishments are rarely eternal and those who fulfill them are often allowed to become souls in his service or are simply made citizens of his gray and lightless land. There are many places where beautiful fields and paradisial pleasures await the blessed of Kelemvor but he largely keeps these hidden away from the majority lest others start to believe death should be welcomed rather than endured. The only permanent punishment is those souls consigned to the The Wall of the Faithless. It is reserved for those criminals who are guilty of hubris. Those attempting to overthrow the gods, destroy all religion, or seize power of the divine for themselves. Individuals like Jon Irenicus and Karsus are held in the Wall amongst other souls of beings too dangerous to exist otherwise. Kelemvor is known to occasionally pardon the souls of many but others are sentenced to permanent imprisonment in the dreams of the past.
Storm_Silverhand 03-03-08, 07:13 AM	Heya, I'm almost done with my first draft of the book to send to you! Good. :) I look forward to reading it. :) (forgive the choppiness of this reply, as I am probably going to be writing it for the better part of the day in between doing other things. :)) Fuji is the Ex-Chosen of Shar, so he's already immortal. I made him about ten years ago and I have a very sentimental attachment to the character, he's not the most original character in the world being almost a totally generic Ryu "study to improve my skills" type character at generation but he grew from that blank slate. He's weathered Time of Troubles, Tuigan Horde, the Return of Shade, The Death of King Azoun, the Return of Bane, and now the Spell Plague. How did he come to be the Chosen of Shar? Was he actually evil at some point? I've left a lot of characters behind but it's probably because Fuji is half-archetype that I'm able to keep returning to the character. If Kane the Monk didn't exist in the Realms, then I'd say Fuji was the Forgotten Realms-616 version of Kane from Kung Fu. Just wandering Faerun, kicking ass, and saving lives. Very archetypical, I will agree there. :) and I'd love to hear more about the story if it isn't a painful one. Well it is kinda painful, and rather long... I'll stick it in a spoiler box... Some people might not like to read it, though there's nothing explicit. I was playing a character who was the daughter of Loviatar and a mortal (her name was Jade). She was a privateer who made a living hunting pirates while also trading up and down the Sword Coast from Athkatla to Waterdeep (with the occasional forays as far south as Calimport and north as far as Neverwinter (can't remember if she ever made it to Luskan, but I suspect not). Jade was completely unaware of her parentage, but odd things kept happening to her that culumulated in Loviatar herself telling Jade of her parentage. Loviatar had some reason for Jade's existence, but somehow Jade had managed to avoid being raised by Loviatarans... So Loviatar asked Jade to spend a year in one of her monestaries. If, at the end of the year, Jade did not want to remain, Loviatar agreed to leave her alone forever... And if Jade didn't agree, Loviatar make sure Jade regretted that decision. Jade was allowed to take one member of her crew with her, to stay in town near by. Let me just pause here to mention other things that had been going on in the game. The DM introduced a Cabin Girl as Jade's "romantic interest", this girl was barely 16, and lets just say that Jade herself was not interested (and I was kind of appalled, and told the DM so at the time, if I recall correctly). As far as I am concerned there was no chemistry between them, and I could see right from the start it wasn't going to work. But the DM decided it would, and pushed it a little. Unfortunately, Jade did find a member of her crew to her liking, her Second Mate - she didn't just like this woman, she quickly fell in love... This Second Mate reciprocated to a certain degree, and things got physical between them pretty quickly. I thought there was a great deal of chemistry between the characters, but the DM obviously thought otherwise, and... well you'll see the result of this shortly. Jade put her ship into the capable hands of Xavier (her First Mate - funny I can remember his name, but not the Second Mate's or the Cabin Girl's), and took her Cabin Girl off somewhere in Amn, if I recall correctly, to a monestery of Loviatar. Cabin Girl stayed in a nearby town, and despite being indoctrinated in Loviatar's dogma, Jade managed to solve a variety of problems in a manner that might look Loviatarish on the surface, but ended up protecting people from pain as much as she could. Her last test, however, she did something really awful (that's as much a I remember of it, this was years ago and I seem to have a better memory for feelings than I do actual details), and hated it... So at the end of her year, Jade decided that Loviatar was not for her, and returned to her ship with Cabin Girl in tow. Loviatar herself could not have planned what happened next better if she tried... During her absence, it seems that Second Mate and Xavier fell in love, and got hitched. When Jade discovered this, she was devastated and heart broken. She hadn't bonded any better with Cabin Girl over the year she was away (aside from some physical companionship, which Cabin Girl was happy to provide), and continued to carry a torch for Second Mate. So she went to the bow of her ship (it was in port in Waterdeep) and cried out to Loviatar: "You were right! Life is pain!" And jumped over the side, intending to drown herself - but Loviatar had other plans for her, and Jade found herself hovering over the water. Jade took that as a sign, and finally embraced her mother - walking to shore and disappearing into the Undermountian (Skullport). Unfortunately shortly there after, Cabin Girl found her and attempted to bring her back, but Jade was a changed woman. Cabin Girl's declaration of love just infuriated Jade, who slashed her face open with her whip, and used her love to keep her at her side as a play thing, something to inflict pain on... And that's where the DM declared the game over. Actually, sometimes I have to take a break from Fuji because the character is essentially depressing. No matter how I've RPGed him, ultimately it turns back to the fact he'll never be a normal person thanks to Shar's touch and must watch all he loves turn to dust. Surely he has another patron deity to whom he could appeal? Very good, I just think it's important not to have too much "concept overlap." I actually made the Iron Throne a Zhent off-shoot (absorbing all the Cyricists from Fzoul's organization into the Demon worshiping group) like in the Baldur's Gate novel because I didn't like ANOTHER evil cartel of merchants when we had a perfectly servicible one. This is a pretty artificial thing to do, IMO. Surely there is room in the Realms (for it is a very vast place) for more than one evil cartel of merchants? I'm exagerrating but I do tend to make magic more dangerous than it is in canon. So it seems. :) Actually, they handled it pretty straight in OOTS. Roy discovers his 19 year old Infant brother in Mount Celestia. He discovers his brother has spent most of the past two decades playing with blocks since there's no hurry to grow up. ;-) Yeah, I read that one on and off. I still don't agree. :) You probably missed this element of my posts when the 4E controversy first started or it was simply lost in the deluge. I'd actually left the Forgotten Realms forums for several months by that point. I was back because my players wanted to play in the New Realms Apparently, they had grown weary of our FR game which had gotten honestly progressively sillier as I'd run out of ideas and burned out at one point. So, we needed to take a break and frankly, I wrote *THE END* at the end of it. I was pretty sure that our game had finally ended but the prospect of a New Generation of heroes, a totally changed world, and massive upheaval of the gods caused them to approach me and ask to run another game of 616. They had no interest in our further timeline. (expects, Storm Silverhand to stare :twitch: because the idea of long time players being pleased by 4E is against all the laws of gods and man) Nah. Why would I :twitch:? Just because I don't like something, doesn't mean that others don't... Whatever floats your boat, and all that. :) I worry about the Munchkin elements of it, really. Being Alusair's consort while also having a live in relationship with her exotic Mage. Munchkin? I am not sure that's the right word. :) I know how you feel, though... Something similar has occurred in games I've played (one of my characters became involved with Caladnei, while another member of the group's character got involved with Alusair... Ironically myself and that player were playing our own gender, while the other two guys in the group were playing female characters and got none. :P). It's fun, but, if I'm being brutally honest with myself, also a little uncomfortably like wish fulfillment. :) Pretty much, the PCs are there for 90% of the Big Damn plots. IMO, that's not terribly realistic. We're not talking about a movie here, we're talking about an entire world... Things happen when the PCs aren't around, that's just life. :) This is another reason why I lowered the levels in the campaign, S_SH. Since there's not 10,000 19th-20th level Archmages in the Forgotten Realms but more like 20, the majority of problems in the world are common villainy than SUPER-villainy. The PCs are like one of 2 or 3 adventuring HERO parties in the world as opposed to mercenaries, Harpers, or Knights but there's only like 2-3 James Bond style "Conquer the World" style plots every year. And that's between LONG periods of peace thanks to the PCs efforts. Way to super exaggerate there, Charles. :) It's not that bad, it never has been. I figure adventuring is rare, but not so rare as that... After all, plenty of lads and lasses run away to find adventure, just most of them end up dead. I guess what you're saying is that 99.99999999999999999999999999999% of them end up dead... That isn't the way it works in my own Realms. :) Part of it is from being pro-active. The PCs jump from one area to another doing their heroism and then move onto the next place to fight the forces of darkness, often with very little time to rest. Plus, a lot of their problems are actively tied together. Defeating Gertti Olafsdotter in the North will help the problems in the South as Sarevok is supplying them weapons in exchange for Giant Troops to help his fight in Cormyr against the Crown. <snip> You might ask The_Mess how he feels about my DMing style but I actually provided them a "Scorecard" like in Baldur's Gate for all the various subquests and sidequests they're currently on. I honestly can't see how you can run a game that way and it remain even semi-realistic. Even heroes need a break sometime. :) @The_Mess - I'll respond to your post within the next few days, but I'm a tad snowed under at the moment. :)
The_Mess 03-03-08, 11:54 AM	How did he come to be the Chosen of Shar? Was he actually evil at some point? I'm not sure he's not evil now! :-) his is a pretty artificial thing to do, IMO. Surely there is room in the Realms (for it is a very vast place) for more than one evil cartel of merchants? There would be, but artificiality is something that occurs naturally. :-) Simply put, whatever you do, there will be a certain degree of the artificial. Hit points are horribly artificial, as is the idea of abilities with discrete quanta. Faerūn is pretty artificial. Society in our world disposed of the feudal model largely in part because of improved communication and transportation technology. Faerūn has had literally magical transport and communication technology for millenia and remains stuck in an economic structure that should be horribly unstable. It seems to have no "divine right of kings" concept, but people across the globe are content to live with whatever proclamations are handed down. We've already discussed how artificial the alignment system is. Freeing the game from the artificial isn't going to happen, so what's left is making sure the artificial works for you. (I'm sorry if I sound like I'm lecturing. I swear I was a tenured professor trying to kill my students with raw boredom in a previous life.) There is room for more than one evil cartel of merchants. There probably is more than one evil cartel of merchants. You could even tell a good story with multiple evil cartels, possibly conflicting with the heroes caught in the middle. You could tell this story, but it wouldn't be our story. Maybe it will be later! (Surely, there's space for Fuji and Galan to argue about the merits of capitalism! Assuming either of them can name one.) But connecting the Iron throne (New evil group, in terms of introduced to the game) to the established (again, in terms of characters having interacted with them) evil group makes them solid faster and eases how much evil the characters (and players) must keep track of. Lisa, I'm sure, finds the concept "evil cartel of merchants" oxymoronic. What's evil about taking people's money again? Something similar has occurred in games I've played (one of my characters became involved with Caladnei, while another member of the group's character got involved with Alusair... Ironically myself and that player were playing our own gender, while the other two guys in the group were playing female characters and got none. :P). Anti-male prejudice! Awk! :-) It's fun, but, if I'm being brutally honest with myself, also a little uncomfortably like wish fulfillment. :) What's wrong with wishfulfilment? I'm pretty sure it's the central focus of the game, unless you think the fireball spells and characters who can be shot 40 times and still keep fighting are concesions to realism... IMO, that's not terribly realistic. We're not talking about a movie here, we're talking about an entire world... Things happen when the PCs aren't around, that's just life. :) I just assume that the gods manipulate their people to get the jobs done. This is bluntly obvious in some cases (chosen), but one presumes the good gods are doing *something* about all this stuff and making sure the heroes just happen to be standing in it's path seems as good a response as any. Plus, it gives them plausible deniability. :-) @The_Mess - I'll respond to your post within the next few days, but I'm a tad snowed under at the moment. :) Snow? What's that?
Soltares 03-03-08, 01:17 PM	Afterlife-616 I've on occasion railed against a few tiny things I'm not exactly in love with, but I'd rather the Realms had an army of 30th level Drizzts, all Chosen of Sehanine Moonbow, riding rainbow-striped flying sparkle-ponies, than include that whole Fugue Plain / Wall of Faithless thing in my setting. It just offends my sense of right and wrong that I can serve Cyric and be an insane malevolent tosser, and have a better fate ahead of me than some peasant in the Hordelands whose village of yak-milkers hasn't had a priest for seven generations and doesn't know bupkiss about gods.
Charles Phipps 03-03-08, 01:53 PM	For me, I felt the same way and instead tried to make it more fair. In this case, the Faithful of Cyric and Bane have this coming to them. "Enjoy their Paradise, you poor :censored:"
Charles Phipps 03-03-08, 02:25 PM	(forgive the choppiness of this reply, as I am probably going to be writing it for the better part of the day in between doing other things. ) To cut down on what you need to reply to, I'll just keep my responses to the point. How did he come to be the Chosen of Shar? Was he actually evil at some point? It was actually one of my better bits of misdirection. Fuji was played as a LG Fighter for a few months that no one could understand why he was hanging around our unsavory CN Bard. Later, when some characters from Wa showed up, they found out that Fuji was a brutal mass murderer and assassin for a Sharist cult of ninja that killed the last Emperor. It through the players for a loop that the character was on a mission of atonement. (He eventually achieved his redemption by placing a new Emperor on the throne and saving Wa from Moander---also briefly dying) Well it is kinda painful, and rather long... I'll stick it in a spoiler box... Some people might not like to read it, though there's nothing explicit. One of the biggest lessons I've learned about DMing is asking for feedback to make sure that you're going in a direction the players like. Michael is never a problem since I'm fairly sure I could turn one of his characters into a miniature Tarrasque and he'd roleplay it out but some have really been embittered by surprise plots. In this case, it seems very clearly a lack of communication and the problems of railroading. You acted out your part well, even if it was to a nasty end. FYI, while 16 is about the age of legality in our Realms, it's also the age we use in our games for "Really annoying girl sidekicks to Fuji." It's a running gag that he seems to attract them and get annoyed by their cheerful adoration. We've had four at this point, though the last one was a Half-Elf and had difficulty convincing everyone she was 27. Surely he has another patron deity to whom he could appeal? Probably, but we go with the Ed Greenwood explanation with Sammaster that once you're Chosen that its a permanent part of your soul. Fuji is owed favors by a lot of gods but he's not terribly fond of a lot of them since he's a veteran of the TOT and Shar's former emotional whipping boy. (I think we had an argument---waaaaaaaay back about the TOT. In 616, the deities really were guilty of taking their faithful for granted though in some cases this was for very good reasons as they were focused on more cosmic goods) This is a pretty artificial thing to do, IMO. Surely there is room in the Realms (for it is a very vast place) for more than one evil cartel of merchants? The_Mess explained it well, however to clarify, the Iron Throne did exist before Sarevok took it over and filled it with Zhentariam Cyrcisists. It just wasn't nearly the powerful force that it is now. I'm also not afraid to give permanent victories. If Sarevok dies and the PCs thwart his plans here, the Iron Throne will be permanently broken. Yeah, I read that one on and off. I still don't agree. It helps in our campaigns to remove the elven stereotype of pure awesome beauty. As stated to many times, they look like jailbait. Way to super exaggerate there, Charles. It's not that bad, it never has been. I figure adventuring is rare, but not so rare as that... After all, plenty of lads and lasses run away to find adventure, just most of them end up dead. I guess what you're saying is that 99.99999999999999999999999999999% of them end up dead... That isn't the way it works in my own Realms. Take note there's adventurers (small A) and Adventures (large A). The majority of said people out to find treasure by robbing tombs and so on may occasionally fight some orcs or otherwise engage in various humanoid related hate crimes but they're mostly just mercenaries or treasure hunters. I liken them to the people in our world who try and dig up sunken Spanish Galleons or climb Mount Everest. They're different from the Harpers and two great Knightly Orders whom are champions of Goodness. Also, I may just be exaggerating my own game since there's still individuals like Randal Morn and other canon *A*dventurers in the past (one of the PCs is the son of "The Greatest Paladin ever" in Lady Kateri Shadowborn) while they've just become aquainted with Aribeth. It's not that "Big A" Adventurers don't exist, they're just very rare. People know who the player characters are and people know who Drizzt is and both Drizzt and the player characters know each others. It also helps increase the importance of things like the War Wizards. They're the First and last line of defense, the Pcs are more a miraculous rescue.
Charles Phipps 03-03-08, 04:22 PM	Talos (The King of Chaos, The Storm Lord, The Storm Bringer, The Lord of the End, The Pyre Master, He Whom Shatters Mountains) Greater God of Pandemonium Portfolio: Anarchy, Berserkers, Chaos, Cunning, Destruction, Entropy, Humanoids, Natural Disasters, Rage, Storms, Volcanoes Aliases: Crom, Gorellik, Gruumsh, Hruggek, Maglubiyet, Nyarlathotep, Surtur, Vaprak Alignment: Chaotic Neutral/Chaotic Evil Superior: Ao Allies: Auril, Garagos, Ghaundaur, Kossuth, Lolth, Shar, Malar, The Orgakyll (Orc Pantheon), Umberlee, Velsharoon Enemies: Gond, Lathander, Moradin, Mystra, Oghma, Helm, The Seldarine, Sune, Tempus, Tyr Symbol: A great battle horn Domains: Chaos, Evil, Destruction, Retribution, War, Weather Worshiper's Alignment: CG, N, CN, NE, CE Talos (Tah-low-s) is a god that the people of the Realms tend to speak of with shudders or warnings against his wrath. Few could ever guess that is responsible for the majority of monsters and plagues of humanoids that rampage across the whole of Faerun. He is a far smarter and more dangerous god than any could give him credit for. Worse, he is a god that is ruled by instinctive and cruel whim that dominates his every action. Talos prefers to appear in the face of gigantic thunder clouds, in the face of a mighty half-giant covered in a black leather mask with antlers coming out of his head, as the most evil men that the player characters have ever encountered, and in things like fire or or smoke. Talos' voice is always large and booming with a tendency to mad laughter. History and Relationships: Talos is either the oldest of the young gods or the youngest of the Elder Gods, depending on where you stand upon such matters. Talos is the child of Shar with either Jergal or the Elder Chaos known as Ghaundaur. Given that Talos fought with the rest of the gods against the forces of Chaos during the first war yet stood with Lolth in the second War of Chaos, it is questionable whether or not either is true or if even Talos knows the truth. In truth, Talos lives only for battle and the eternal struggle between elemental forces that composes the whole of his nature. Talos is a prolific deity and from his Chaos and loins has sprung countless gods across the many Prime Material Worlds. His various faces have founded many of the Humanoid races and their pantheons across the cosmos. The most famous of these is that of Orc Kind, where the face of Gruumsh is considerably more subdued and cunning than the majority of Talos' many masks. Most of his species are dominated by the cause of war and building ever greater engines of destruction before they either annihilate themselves or reduce themselves to savagery. Talos, despite his obvious insanity, is capable of long term plans and even step by step seduction. He is an ancient deity and as intelligent as his rival Lathander or even Shar. It is merely that the vast majority of Talos' schemes are for immediate gratification while plenty of his more long term ones sit upon the back burner until the time they are ready to unleash carnage on an unthinkable scale. Shar is routinely frustrated by the fact that Talos seems perfectly capable of destroying the world at any given time but is also uniquely aware that without a cycle of Creation to accompany the cycle of destruction then there would be nothing left to destroy. Thus, he often leaves wide openings for heroes to thwart in his many plots to lay waste to much of the world. Talos has an affection for his many worshipers and tends to treat them with a reasonably gentle hand by comparison to those who think otherwise. Quite a few barbarian tribes worship Talos and are often rewarded with great wealth or power for their deeds. However, they tend to rarely prosper as the ever heightening greed or battle lust within is enough to result in their eventual destruction. Talos rewards these fools with an eternal place in his halls but rarely is any trace left of their great deeds. Almost all the gods in the Forgotten Realms find themselves opposed to Talos at one point or another but it is the rare god that Talos genuinely holds enimity for. With the exception of Lathander, whom has hounded his people with the Elves since time began, there are few beings that are capable of annoying the Storm Bringer. Of course, given he's entirely jovial when he's plotting to destroy your entire civilization then its understandable if some deities have difficulty not taking it personally. It would be impossible to list Talos' 1000+ plots that are currently ongoing. Most of them will probably fail or achieve only limited success but that means little so long as a few of them stick. Some of these include attempting to seize War from Tempus and place it in the hands of himself or another deity that prefers carnage for its own sake, others include sinking a continent, shattering Faerun with a meteor, transforming many of Faerun's into a race of super-powered beings compelled to battle one another for supremacy, or wiping a single nation off the map. Noteworthy is the the fact that the Spell Plague is, actually, not Mystra's doing but Talos harnessing the power of it to carry on an entire century of nightmarish horror for the planet's populous. Talos has since grown weary of it and thus has the storms of Blue Fire started to die out across the land. People should perhaps be grateful as it was Talos' harnessing the destructive power of magic that has prevented Shar from being able to digest the power of magic for herself. Currently, Talos has been altering the majority of humanoids on Faerun with his powers on a subtle genetic level. Each generation for the past century has been slightly less aggressive and more intelligent than the previous one. Bizarrely, Talos believes this will suit him in the long one as they become more capable of the kinds of large scale and organized destruction that humans are doing. It is unknown if he's the party that has started reducing the innate good of elves and dwarves but that may be assigning too much power to the Chaos King. Dogma: Do whatever you want. Indulge every whim and feeling you are inclined to. Let the horns blast and the screams emerge from your belly. Feed Talos with the lives of your enemies and the chaos that is the death of the civilized world. Only the Barbarian is fit to survive in a place where the weak are allowed to prosper by their own inept banality. Know you will be rewarded for the damage you do and the courage you display in battle.
Charles Phipps 03-03-08, 05:21 PM	FYI, I may be slowing down with progress for the time being. We're taking a break from Forgotten Realms with the death of Volumvax and the salvation of the North from his taking it over to play a Hyborean Age game. We're using Vampire: The Masquerade's storytelling system to simulate the raw and gritty style more. Ah yes, Hyborea. When men were men and women were made up women.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-03-08, 06:09 PM	Beauty = Craftsmanship that you can be proud of. I probably should could have used other words but I felt it was important to highlight the appreciation that Gond has of his workmanship. It's why he lauds beauty but derides ornamentation. Trust me, I can totally "buy it" that Gond would have the opinion that you are saying he does. I just thought it was a little inappropriate for most of his dogma to be focused on beauty of any kind when it isn't one of his portfolios. It made me think, "Teach what you know, dude".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-03-08, 06:12 PM	He's not an evangelist god. I.e. Bahamut doesn't want anyone worshiping him but his current worshipers and their descendants. Duh. :rolleyes: How did you miss that? To be fair to Storm, I was a bit confused, too.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-03-08, 06:15 PM	Frankly, the concept of Patron Deity almost encourages the fact that most Faerunites tend to hold one deity exclusive above all others IMHO. Like some others, I think that concept is stupid. The Realms is supposed to be polytheistic, not henotheistic.
Charles Phipps 03-03-08, 07:07 PM	Trust me, I can totally "buy it" that Gond would have the opinion that you are saying he does. I just thought it was a little inappropriate for most of his dogma to be focused on beauty of any kind when it isn't one of his portfolios. It made me think, "Teach what you know, dude". Fixed. Gond is now God of Perfection and Beauty is replaced with such. To be fair to Storm, I was a bit confused, too. Then I just badly wrote it. :) Like some others, I think that concept is stupid. The Realms is supposed to be polytheistic, not henotheistic. Very true. However, I for one hold a combination of henotheistic ideals and polytheistic ones. There's ample room for many religions and religious ideals in the Forgotten Realms.
Janusunaj 03-04-08, 12:54 PM	I like the idea of Thay being a Super power, but how does Shadow Dale survive if people are limited to level 20?
Charles Phipps 03-04-08, 01:10 PM	I like the idea of Thay being a Super power, but how does Shadow Dale survive if people are limited to level 20? In general, the Dales are still protected by Elminster and company. Plus, the Dalelanders are still experienced guerrilla fighters. In general, the Dalelands are much more in danger of being conquered by the Zhentariam, though. Which makes their potential absorption by Cormyr for protection all the more likely post-Spell Plague (which the King is hoping for)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-04-08, 08:23 PM	Fixed. Gond is now God of Perfection and Beauty is replaced with such. Good idea.:) Very true. However, I for one hold a combination of henotheistic ideals and polytheistic ones. There's ample room for many religions and religious ideals in the Forgotten Realms. True, true.
Charles Phipps 03-07-08, 12:02 AM	Attitude towards the Gods in 616 This is actually something directly against Faerun canon. Overall, it depends on the character really but I've actually gone and done away with much of what we think of as religion in my Faerun. I think part of the problem is that our traditional attitudes towards religion and peity are not really appropriate for the world. The concept of "faith" isn't really an attitude for people from this time period. Take, Sigurr, a character from our games. The Northman KNOWS Tempus exists, at least to the extent that anything else occurs. Tempus lives about 12 mountains down, he lives in a gigantic palace of spears, and he has a hot daughter whom is a total :censored:. Tempus will take his spirit upon death but only if he lives up to X creed of barbarian courage. If he's particularly questioning as to which mountain, Sigurr will be told that it's one in the lands beyond the sky, which mostly will just confuse him. Still, it's like someone walking up to you and saying "How do you know the world is round?" "Have you ever been in space and seen it?" "How do you not know that others have lied to you about it being round?" Sigurr doesn't have 'faith' per say because the idea of not believing in Tempus is just ridiculous. Likewise, Tempus doesn't ask for sacrifices from the Northmen to my knowledge. You might throw a few sacrifices his way or consult one of his Half-Mad Snow Priests for insight but really, worship doesn't have any intristic value to the god. There's no Prayer Mats, Pews, Churches, or similar concepts. It's actually something that's defined by the way that one lives and conducts onself. The closest thing in Faerun are the The Church of the Triad, The Church of the Lawgiver, and Cyric's regular worship. In general, the Temples are just THERE but no one really conducts services to them unless they need something. In the civilized world, barring Bahamut or Bane who denounce you from worshiping other gods, you pretty much have a huge host of deities to choose from. Again, the issue is largely an economic one. No one believes that anyone made up Shar or whatever Snake-faced god from Chult that's erected a temple in the area. They accept them and their promises as pretty much literal fact. There was a fun period in our campaign where they consulted a Mulhorandi for a blessing against the magic of an Kossuth priest. The conversation went like this. Albios: Why are we asking for a blessing from an Arch-demon? Sigurr: Well, all Mulhorandi are wizards...or so I've heard. Set hates all other gods. The Kossuth is a priest of another god. We're going to kill him. Albios: But we hate Set. Sigurr: Yes, but we sacrificed a Bull and havent' killed any of his priests...yet. I'm sure that earns us some favor. What does this mean? The whole "evangelist" thing of the gods is actually not really affecting their power base. There's some definite organized religions in the realms but most really don't give the gods that much in the way of thought unless they need something.
Charles Phipps 03-08-08, 12:43 AM	Orcs-616 Monstrous Manual Write-Up http://lukoagency.free.fr/images/Lawrence%20Makoar%E9/Battle-Lurtz.jpg Orc, 1st-Level Warrior Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (Orc) Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp) Initiative: +0 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) Armor Class: 13 (+3 studded leather armor), touch 10, flat-footed 13 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+4 Attack: Falchion +4 melee (2d4+4/18-20) or javelin +1 ranged (1d6+3) Full Attack: Falchion +4 melee (2d4+4/18-20) or javelin +1 ranged (1d6+3) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., light sensitivity Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will -2 Abilities: Str 17, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 8 Skills: Listen +1, Spot +1 Feats: Alertness Environment: Any Organization: Gang (2-4), squad (11-20 plus 2 3rd-level sergeants and 1 leader of 3rd-6th level), or band (30-100 plus 150% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 10 adults, 5 5th-level lieutenants, and 3 7th-level captains) Challenge Rating: ½ Treasure: Standard Alignment: Often Neutral Evil Advancement: By character class Level Adjustment: +0 An orc’s hair usually is black and frequently unkept or bound in dreadlocks. Orcs often decorate themselves in beads, feathers, and small trophies of their kills like fingerbones or teeth necklaces. These are marks of status amongst Orcs and help determine the society's strong inclination to pecking order. Their equipment is well kept but frequently designed to be intimidating to look upon. An adult male orc is a little over 6 feet tall and weighs about 210 pounds. Orcs strongly resemble human beings when not covered in their traditional war paint, woad, and camouflage. They are noticible by their feline eyes, pronounced canines, and pronounced foreheads that put some in the mind of Neanderthalls. Females are slightly smaller. The language an orc speaks varies slightly from tribe to tribe, but any orc is understandable by someone else who speaks Orc. Some Orcs know Goblin, Human Common, or Giant as well. Most orcs encountered away from their homes are warriors; the information in the statistics block is for one of 1st level. Combat Orcs are proficient with all simple weapons, preferring those that cause the most damage in the least time. Many orcs who take up the warrior or fighter class also gain proficiency with the falchion or the greataxe as a martial weapon. They enjoy attacking from concealment and setting ambushes, and they obey the rules of war (such as honoring a truce) only as long as it is convenient for them. Light Sensitivity (Ex) Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. Orcs As Characters Orc Traits (Ex) Orcs possess the following racial traits. * +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. * An orc’s base land speed is 30 feet. * Darkvision out to 60 feet. * Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. * Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon. * Favored Class: Barbarian. The orc warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 9, Cha 8. Half-Orcs These orc-human crossbreeds can be found in either orc or human society (where their status varies according to local sentiments), or in communities of their own. Half-orcs usually inherit a good blend of the physical characteristics of their parents. They are as tall as humans and a little heavier, thanks to their muscle. They have grayish or brown pigmentation, sloping foreheads, jutting jaws, prominent teeth, and piercing eyes. Half-orcs who have lived among or near orcs have scars, in keeping with orcish tradition. Half-Orc Traits (Ex) Half-orcs possess the following racial traits. * +2 Strength, -2 Wisdom * Medium size. * A half-orc’s base land speed is 30 feet. * Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. * Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc. * Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin * Favored Class: Fighter Player Character Race Write-Up Orcs-616 Orcs on Faerun have inhabited the planet since the Orcgate Wars and arguably were there beforehand, depending which scholars one consults. They are a fiercely savage and untamable race which resists all attempts to dominate them while living in a perpetual state of conflict with the majority of species amongst them. They have frequently tales spread about them which liken them to practioners of Cannibalism, Demon Worship, Genocide, Mass Rape, and other unsavory practices. The hatred held between Elves and Orcs is only slightly less than the one that the race holds for the Drow. Likewise, Goblins are the only race that Dwarves despise more than the Children of Gruumsh. In truth, the Orcs are a brutal and savage race but have usually gotten along fairly well with their neighbors by comparison to most other species. Orcs have ancient friendship with the majority of Humanoid species in Faerun and are often allied with human beings against Demihuman species as the reverse. Recently, as the chaos of the Time of Troubles and Spell Plague has driven more from their homelands, they have become a permanent fixture in many cities to the disgust of certain races and profit of others. Personality: Orcs are extremely survival minded as the teachings of Gruumsh have decreed. The survival of the tribe, or whatever immediate social unit they involve themselves in, is effectively viewed as the highest priority. They do not sentimentalize war and tend to not take prisoners or give quarter. Indeed, most orcs seem extremely perplexed by the byzantine customs that most races associate matters with. Leadership is earned by the most capable and taken from those no longer suited for it. Those beings that find themselves as part of an Orc tribe or social unit will often find themselves with a overly defensive and protective companion. Orcs will voluntarilly give their lives for their fellow warriors, their fellow warrior's cubs, and their fellow warrior's permanent mates. They expect as much in return. Orcs tend to violently resist any attempt to gain authority over them that is not through the tribal mindset. Only the threat of execution is likely to force an Orc into submission and then it is merely a matter of time before they eventually rise up. Only Zhentil Keep has had any luck forcing Orcs into any form of military discipline and those that employ the savages tend to prefer to simply let them sort pecking order out amongst themselves. Orcs tend to be passionate, highly sexual creatures, and strongly favor strong and virile mates. Most tend to have a superstitous fear of magic users and loathe clerics that are not of their gods. Orcish women have been known to kidnap human men from local regions when war has depleted their ranks. Orcish women are trained in fighting like the men but tend to reserve their actions for guarding the home region as opposed to going on war raids or strikes. Appearance: Orcs physically resemble primitive human beings and there is some speculation amongst scholars that the two races were once one at a previous point in time (to the loud and vigorous condemnation of their peers). An Orc raised amongst human beings and kept from their tribal practices would not be able to pass but the similiarities would stun most human beings. Tales of the legendary ugliness of Orcs is just propaganda from those whom have never seen them outside of the battlefield. Indeed, many 'Half-Orcs' living amongst human society are actually full blooded Orcs who just find it easier to pretend. Unlike human beings, Orcs have pronounced canines and cat-like eyes that intimidate those around them. They favor a muscular body type and tend to tower over those around them. Fully tribal Orcs love terrifying their enemies into submission and tend to cover themselves in body paint, camoflage, practice ritual scarification, and tatooing. Some tribes even go so far as to cut off their own noses in order to make them more resemble skulls (this is the source of the legendary "pig nose.") They favor dreadlocks, mowhawks, shaven heads. or simply leaving their hair completely wild. Alignment: Orcish morality is determined by survival and what best suits that value. It is an uncivilized code that is far removed from the majority of mankind's laws but not without its laws. The majority of Orcs favor Neutral Evil as they are a race that is deeply at home in the savage and bloodthirsty wilderness where natural law rules the day. They are a pack like species that strongly favors its family ties and those Orcs who turn against their own kin are swiftly slain or driven out. A particularly fierce warrior might find himself or herself allowed a few 'eccentricies' in terms of their behavior. Good Orcs do exist but they tend to dwell in Realms where human culture has overwhelmed traditional Orcish culture or they've moved themselves away from the savagery of the wild. The Odonti worshipers of Eldath are an anomoly amongst the Orcs but hardly the only group of them. Orc Lands: Orcs carve out their territories as best they can but pretty much are able to settle nearly everywhere. They are a hunter-gatherer people by nature and rarely take up ranching, even less so farming since meat makes up the vast majority of an orcs traditional needs. Orcs tend to make friends with most Humanoid tribes in a region as opposed to slaughtering them. Bugbears, Giants, Gnolls, Goblins, Ogres, and Trolls are typical species that often find themselves aligned with Orcs. Humans, especially Barbarians, without much fondness for Elves or Dwarves are often the closest to Orc tribes with frequent interbreeding. Human settlements frequently help Orcs develop their metal work and often they quickly rise to the same tech level around them as the species is especially adaptive even if its not terribly innovative. Orcs as a whole are continually frustrated by the bi-polar reaction they tend to recieve from humanity and thus tend to view civilization with a corrupting effect on the race. Orcs are almost all aware that Dwarves and Elves are the enemy of their race. They rarely wait to confirm that a group is hostile when spotted and almost immediate begin plotting how to destroy them. Orcs are a slave holding race by inclination and often take captives from such wars, which does little to endear them. Orcs believe that slavery is preferrable to the execution that is the only 'reasonable' alternative in wartime. Religion: Most Orcs worship Gruumsh and the Orcish Pantheon that holds the Orcs will eventually inherit the world. The majority of Orc tribes tend to interpret this through the settlement of land rather than military conquest. Gruumsh teaches that survival and practicaly trump all over considerations. He is a crafty god and the rest of the pantheon frequently defers to his wisdom in all matters. Orcs are a race that also tends to add human gods to their worship that appeal to them. Orc shamans frequently find themselves also revering Auril, Malar, Silvanus, Talos, Tempus, and Mask amongst other heavy handed gods. The Orcs around Zhentil Keep have almost all voluntarily converted to Bane's worship. In general, Orcs tend to have a somewhat impious attitude towards Gruumsh. They fear his attention and rarely invoke him save in curses or during battle. Languages: Orcs speak their own tongue and a variety of other languages around them as appropriate. Names: Orcs tend to favor simple yet harsh sounding names. Thog, Crast, Conan, Gatra, or the like are all popular. Adventurers: Almost all Orcs are Barbarians that grow up in a tribal environment. Those from more civilized tribes that learn about armor, tactics, and the like from humans tend to be fighters. Rangers are also very common amongst Orcs and tend to become masters of navigating the wild. Due to the Orcs favoring sneaking and treachery over outright confrontation when appropriate, Rogues are often a popular multiclass. Orcs have no innate concept of property outside of the tribe and thus see no reason in liberating wealth for their own use. Orcish clerics live apart from the rest of the tribes, half revered and half loathed. Almost no Orcs become Wizards but some Sorcerers are born and held up as objects of veneration.
Todesherr 03-08-08, 07:55 AM	Orcs-616 Monstrous Manual Write-Up http://lukoagency.free.fr/images/Lawrence%20Makoar%E9/Battle-Lurtz.jpg Orc, 1st-Level Warrior Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (Orc) Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp) Initiative: +0 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) Armor Class: 13 (+3 studded leather armor), touch 10, flat-footed 13 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+4 Attack: Falchion +4 melee (2d4+4/18-20) or javelin +1 ranged (1d6+3) Full Attack: Falchion +4 melee (2d4+4/18-20) or javelin +1 ranged (1d6+3) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., light sensitivity Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will -2 Abilities: Str 17, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 8 Skills: Listen +1, Spot +1 Feats: Alertness Environment: Any Organization: Gang (2-4), squad (11-20 plus 2 3rd-level sergeants and 1 leader of 3rd-6th level), or band (30-100 plus 150% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 10 adults, 5 5th-level lieutenants, and 3 7th-level captains) Challenge Rating: ½ Treasure: Standard Alignment: Often Neutral Evil Advancement: By character class Level Adjustment: +0 An orc’s hair usually is black and frequently unkept or bound in dreadlocks. Orcs often decorate themselves in beads, feathers, and small trophies of their kills like fingerbones or teeth necklaces. These are marks of status amongst Orcs and help determine the society's strong inclination to pecking order. Their equipment is well kept but frequently designed to be intimidating to look upon. An adult male orc is a little over 6 feet tall and weighs about 210 pounds. Orcs strongly resemble human beings when not covered in their traditional war paint, woad, and camouflage. They are noticible by their feline eyes, pronounced canines, and pronounced foreheads that put some in the mind of Neanderthalls. Females are slightly smaller. The language an orc speaks varies slightly from tribe to tribe, but any orc is understandable by someone else who speaks Orc. Some Orcs know Goblin, Human Common, or Giant as well. Most orcs encountered away from their homes are warriors; the information in the statistics block is for one of 1st level. Combat Orcs are proficient with all simple weapons, preferring those that cause the most damage in the least time. Many orcs who take up the warrior or fighter class also gain proficiency with the falchion or the greataxe as a martial weapon. They enjoy attacking from concealment and setting ambushes, and they obey the rules of war (such as honoring a truce) only as long as it is convenient for them. Light Sensitivity (Ex) Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. Orcs As Characters Orc Traits (Ex) Orcs possess the following racial traits. * +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. * An orc’s base land speed is 30 feet. * Darkvision out to 60 feet. * Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. * Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon. * Favored Class: Barbarian. The orc warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 9, Cha 8. Half-Orcs These orc-human crossbreeds can be found in either orc or human society (where their status varies according to local sentiments), or in communities of their own. Half-orcs usually inherit a good blend of the physical characteristics of their parents. They are as tall as humans and a little heavier, thanks to their muscle. They have grayish or brown pigmentation, sloping foreheads, jutting jaws, prominent teeth, and piercing eyes. Half-orcs who have lived among or near orcs have scars, in keeping with orcish tradition. Half-Orc Traits (Ex) Half-orcs possess the following racial traits. * +2 Strength, -2 Wisdom * Medium size. * A half-orc’s base land speed is 30 feet. * Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. * Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc. * Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin * Favored Class: Fighter Player Character Race Write-Up Orcs-616 Orcs on Faerun have inhabited the planet since the Orcgate Wars and arguably were there beforehand, depending which scholars one consults. They are a fiercely savage and untamable race which resists all attempts to dominate them while living in a perpetual state of conflict with the majority of species amongst them. They have frequently tales spread about them which liken them to practioners of Cannibalism, Demon Worship, Genocide, Mass Rape, and other unsavory practices. The hatred held between Elves and Orcs is only slightly less than the one that the race holds for the Drow. Likewise, Goblins are the only race that Dwarves despise more than the Children of Gruumsh. In truth, the Orcs are a brutal and savage race but have usually gotten along fairly well with their neighbors by comparison to most other species. Orcs have ancient friendship with the majority of Humanoid species in Faerun and are often allied with human beings against Demihuman species as the reverse. Recently, as the chaos of the Time of Troubles and Spell Plague has driven more from their homelands, they have become a permanent fixture in many cities to the disgust of certain races and profit of others. Personality: Orcs are extremely survival minded as the teachings of Gruumsh have decreed. The survival of the tribe, or whatever immediate social unit they involve themselves in, is effectively viewed as the highest priority. They do not sentimentalize war and tend to not take prisoners or give quarter. Indeed, most orcs seem extremely perplexed by the byzantine customs that most races associate matters with. Leadership is earned by the most capable and taken from those no longer suited for it. Those beings that find themselves as part of an Orc tribe or social unit will often find themselves with a overly defensive and protective companion. Orcs will voluntarilly give their lives for their fellow warriors, their fellow warrior's cubs, and their fellow warrior's permanent mates. They expect as much in return. Orcs tend to violently resist any attempt to gain authority over them that is not through the tribal mindset. Only the threat of execution is likely to force an Orc into submission and then it is merely a matter of time before they eventually rise up. Only Zhentil Keep has had any luck forcing Orcs into any form of military discipline and those that employ the savages tend to prefer to simply let them sort pecking order out amongst themselves. Orcs tend to be passionate, highly sexual creatures, and strongly favor strong and virile mates. Most tend to have a superstitous fear of magic users and loathe clerics that are not of their gods. Orcish women have been known to kidnap human men from local regions when war has depleted their ranks. Orcish women are trained in fighting like the men but tend to reserve their actions for guarding the home region as opposed to going on war raids or strikes. Appearance: Orcs physically resemble primitive human beings and there is some speculation amongst scholars that the two races were once one at a previous point in time (to the loud and vigorous condemnation of their peers). An Orc raised amongst human beings and kept from their tribal practices would not be able to pass but the similiarities would stun most human beings. Tales of the legendary ugliness of Orcs is just propaganda from those whom have never seen them outside of the battlefield. Indeed, many 'Half-Orcs' living amongst human society are actually full blooded Orcs who just find it easier to pretend. Unlike human beings, Orcs have pronounced canines and cat-like eyes that intimidate those around them. They favor a muscular body type and tend to tower over those around them. Fully tribal Orcs love terrifying their enemies into submission and tend to cover themselves in body paint, camoflage, practice ritual scarification, and tatooing. Some tribes even go so far as to cut off their own noses in order to make them more resemble skulls (this is the source of the legendary "pig nose.") They favor dreadlocks, mowhawks, shaven heads. or simply leaving their hair completely wild. Alignment: Orcish morality is determined by survival and what best suits that value. It is an uncivilized code that is far removed from the majority of mankind's laws but not without its laws. The majority of Orcs favor Neutral Evil as they are a race that is deeply at home in the savage and bloodthirsty wilderness where natural law rules the day. They are a pack like species that strongly favors its family ties and those Orcs who turn against their own kin are swiftly slain or driven out. A particularly fierce warrior might find himself or herself allowed a few 'eccentricies' in terms of their behavior. Good Orcs do exist but they tend to dwell in Realms where human culture has overwhelmed traditional Orcish culture or they've moved themselves away from the savagery of the wild. The Odonti worshipers of Eldath are an anomoly amongst the Orcs but hardly the only group of them. Orc Lands: Orcs carve out their territories as best they can but pretty much are able to settle nearly everywhere. They are a hunter-gatherer people by nature and rarely take up ranching, even less so farming since meat makes up the vast majority of an orcs traditional needs. Orcs tend to make friends with most Humanoid tribes in a region as opposed to slaughtering them. Bugbears, Giants, Gnolls, Goblins, Ogres, and Trolls are typical species that often find themselves aligned with Orcs. Humans, especially Barbarians, without much fondness for Elves or Dwarves are often the closest to Orc tribes with frequent interbreeding. Human settlements frequently help Orcs develop their metal work and often they quickly rise to the same tech level around them as the species is especially adaptive even if its not terribly innovative. Orcs as a whole are continually frustrated by the bi-polar reaction they tend to recieve from humanity and thus tend to view civilization with a corrupting effect on the race. Orcs are almost all aware that Dwarves and Elves are the enemy of their race. They rarely wait to confirm that a group is hostile when spotted and almost immediate begin plotting how to destroy them. Orcs are a slave holding race by inclination and often take captives from such wars, which does little to endear them. Orcs believe that slavery is preferrable to the execution that is the only 'reasonable' alternative in wartime. Religion: Most Orcs worship Gruumsh and the Orcish Pantheon that holds the Orcs will eventually inherit the world. The majority of Orc tribes tend to interpret this through the settlement of land rather than military conquest. Gruumsh teaches that survival and practicaly trump all over considerations. He is a crafty god and the rest of the pantheon frequently defers to his wisdom in all matters. Orcs are a race that also tends to add human gods to their worship that appeal to them. Orc shamans frequently find themselves also revering Auril, Malar, Silvanus, Talos, Tempus, and Mask amongst other heavy handed gods. The Orcs around Zhentil Keep have almost all voluntarily converted to Bane's worship. In general, Orcs tend to have a somewhat impious attitude towards Gruumsh. They fear his attention and rarely invoke him save in curses or during battle. Languages: Orcs speak their own tongue and a variety of other languages around them as appropriate. Names: Orcs tend to favor simple yet harsh sounding names. Thog, Crast, Conan, Gatra, or the like are all popular. Adventurers: Almost all Orcs are Barbarians that grow up in a tribal environment. Those from more civilized tribes that learn about armor, tactics, and the like from humans tend to be fighters. Rangers are also very common amongst Orcs and tend to become masters of navigating the wild. Due to the Orcs favoring sneaking and treachery over outright confrontation when appropriate, Rogues are often a popular multiclass. Orcs have no innate concept of property outside of the tribe and thus see no reason in liberating wealth for their own use. Orcish clerics live apart from the rest of the tribes, half revered and half loathed. Almost no Orcs become Wizards but some Sorcerers are born and held up as objects of veneration. Just curious man, but do you work for an RPG company or something similar?
Charles Phipps 03-08-08, 04:55 PM	I used to work at Seraphim Guard and later a minor publishing house's RPG division. Neither side seemed to appreciate my attempts to actually get product out the door.
Todesherr 03-08-08, 08:42 PM	I used to work at Seraphim Guard and later a minor publishing house's RPG division. Neither side seemed to appreciate my attempts to actually get product out the door. I thought so. You do good stuff and also seem to have the time to do it.
Ultimatecalibur 03-08-08, 10:39 PM	Very nice adaption. You did a nice job emphasizing that they are more "wild men" than monsters.
The_Mess 03-08-08, 10:46 PM	I used to work at Seraphim Guard and later a minor publishing house's RPG division. Neither side seemed to appreciate my attempts to actually get product out the door. Fool! Getting products produced leads to customers buying them. That can lead to profit! That, in turn, could lead to more products and a successful company! All those monetary flow would boost the economy, saving the nation! What were you thinking?
Storm_Silverhand 03-10-08, 06:48 PM	Heya, I haven't disappeared completely, just been very distracted of late. :) To cut down on what you need to reply to, I'll just keep my responses to the point. You can elaborate as much as you like, honestly. :) I like reading what you have to say, as it is interesting even when I don't agree with you. :) It was actually one of my better bits of misdirection. Fuji was played as a LG Fighter for a few months that no one could understand why he was hanging around our unsavory CN Bard. Later, when some characters from Wa showed up, they found out that Fuji was a brutal mass murderer and assassin for a Sharist cult of ninja that killed the last Emperor. It through the players for a loop that the character was on a mission of atonement. (He eventually achieved his redemption by placing a new Emperor on the throne and saving Wa from Moander---also briefly dying) What alignment was he in actual fact when he was pretending to be a LG fighter? And what prompted him to seek redemption? I mean, brutal mass murderers don't just wake up one day and decide to reform. :) One of the biggest lessons I've learned about DMing is asking for feedback to make sure that you're going in a direction the players like. Michael is never a problem since I'm fairly sure I could turn one of his characters into a miniature Tarrasque and he'd roleplay it out but some have really been embittered by surprise plots. In this case, it seems very clearly a lack of communication and the problems of railroading. You acted out your part well, even if it was to a nasty end. Yes, we (as player and DM) agreed that that was the problem. I'm not sure he was expecting what happened, and it was one of the roles I've played that leads him to believe I'm scary good at playing Evil. (I don't like playing evil, because I find it emotionally exhausting.) FYI, while 16 is about the age of legality in our Realms, it's also the age we use in our games for "Really annoying girl sidekicks to Fuji." It's a running gag that he seems to attract them and get annoyed by their cheerful adoration. We've had four at this point, though the last one was a Half-Elf and had difficulty convincing everyone she was 27. My attitudes have since changed from that game. :) It's very hard to say exactly when a person becomes mature enough for sex, because it really depends on the individuals involved. There are some 14 year olds capable of handling it, and there are some 21 year olds who are not. Because of that it's usually best to be on the safe side... You know what. though? I think there's an interesting parallel there - is Fuji a male Xena? :) He certainly sounds like it to some degree (brutal mass murderer who changes and travels the world righting wrongs for redemption, accompanied by a young, naive, and optimistic side kick...). It could just be that they're steeped in the same archetype, though. :) Probably, but we go with the Ed Greenwood explanation with Sammaster that once you're Chosen that its a permanent part of your soul. Fuji is owed favors by a lot of gods but he's not terribly fond of a lot of them since he's a veteran of the TOT and Shar's former emotional whipping boy. I suppose that makes sense, though I'm sure powerful enough magic would allow him to die... Also, there's such a thing as suicide... I know, that's probably a difficult concept to contemplate, but so is living forever. The_Mess explained it well, however to clarify, the Iron Throne did exist before Sarevok took it over and filled it with Zhentariam Cyrcisists. It just wasn't nearly the powerful force that it is now. I'm also not afraid to give permanent victories. If Sarevok dies and the PCs thwart his plans here, the Iron Throne will be permanently broken. Every game changes that version of the Realms in a myriad of ways. I suppose a DM shouldn't be too shy to change things or even shoot sacred cows. :) Now I've said that, don't I sound like a hypocrite regarding the changes to the Realms for 4th Ed? It helps in our campaigns to remove the elven stereotype of pure awesome beauty. As stated to many times, they look like jailbait. I've never felt that about elves. But I'm very much an elfophile. I always get the impression of elegance and mature beauty when I think about elves. Maybe I'm just more inspired by Cate Blanchet's portrayal of Galadriel than Deedlit of Record of Lodoss Wars. Take note there's adventurers (small A) and Adventures (large A). The majority of said people out to find treasure by robbing tombs and so on may occasionally fight some orcs or otherwise engage in various humanoid related hate crimes but they're mostly just mercenaries or treasure hunters. I liken them to the people in our world who try and dig up sunken Spanish Galleons or climb Mount Everest. Treasure hunting is fraught with danger, and I think you'll find they'd end up fighting more than an orc or two. "Lost" treasure is not often unguarded in the Realms, after all. :) As for who they'd be in the real world - well if they're not "true" adventurers, then I don't know what you consider to be true adventurers. (Do you know how much danger is involved in both those "adventures"? I suspect not from your comment.) It's not that "Big A" Adventurers don't exist, they're just very rare. People know who the player characters are and people know who Drizzt is and both Drizzt and the player characters know each others. It also helps increase the importance of things like the War Wizards. They're the First and last line of defense, the Pcs are more a miraculous rescue. Well the PCs can't be "Big A" adventurers from level 1. :) I suspect we work to different scales as DMs. :)
Charles Phipps 03-10-08, 07:46 PM	I thought for the benefit of readers like Storm, that I might share some issues regarding the amount of heroism in my realms. Here's a rough letter that I sent to my players. Canon and Non-Canon FR material in 616-Forgotten Realms The following books are non-canon for my Forgotten Realms. * The Return of the Archwizards: which doesn't remotely reflect how the Shades returned in our Realm. * The Baldur's Gate Novels: Sarevok, Imoen, and the Bhaalspawn have all shown up in drastically different forms in our game and thus these novels did not occur. * The Avatar Trilogy: The Time of Troubles took a decidedly different turn in our games with the mortal Kelemvor Lyonsbane and Midnight not existing our game world. Instead, "Kelemvor" is an old Chondath word for 'Honorable Judge' and Mystra III is Imzel. * All Planescape Novels: Our Sigil does not have any of their taint. * The Empire Trilogy: The Tuigan Horde was dealt with by the PCs, though some broad strokes still apply. * The Spell jammer Comic Books: They just sucked and I'd like to pretend they didn't exist. * Year of Rogue Dragons: Bluntly, I haven't read this series and am not sure it fits my worldview if it does. I'm fond of Sammaster as a character. * The House of Serpents Trilogy: Again, I haven't read it yet so until I do it's non-canon. * The Sellswords Book II and III: Given Sir Thomas the PC assassinated King Gareth Dragonsbane, I'm going to suggest the events of the novel played out slightly differently. I'm going to suggest that his cousin took over whom is decidedly NOT a paladin but thinks he is, marrying Gareth's widow. Now for a word regarding the Forgotten Realms canon of our world as a whole. The Forgotten Realms comic books and novels are considered for the most part to be canon in my Forgotten Realms. However, there's also something I need to make clear. They're also the *only* real adventures going on. There's not a massive number of unseen adventurers occuring in the Forgotten Realms. While the Harpers are doing their typical Cloak and Dagger and the Knights bashing random monsters, anything of significance outside of our games is pretty much limited to these comics and approved novels. In other words, Kyriani and Priam Agrivar are important people because they're semi-legendary. Ditto Alias and Dragonbait or Danillo and Arilyn. I think this preserves the High Adventure feel of the Forgotten Realms and nevertheless establishes it as a place where strange events of world shaking proportion are NOT an every day occurrence even if the unusual is a constant. The only exception to this, of course, is the "Four from Cormyr" whom have mostly undocumented adventures occurring in the past century before the Spell Plague.
Charles Phipps 03-10-08, 08:15 PM	I haven't disappeared completely, just been very distracted of late. Understood. I've been sick with the Flu. You can elaborate as much as you like, honestly. I like reading what you have to say, as it is interesting even when I don't agree with you. Well noted. What alignment was he in actual fact when he was pretending to be a LG fighter? And what prompted him to seek redemption? I mean, brutal mass murderers don't just wake up one day and decide to reform. Lawful Good, he was on his mission of Atonement by that point. As for what prompted him, it was very much inspired by the Shadow by Alec Baldwin, which was out about the time I created Fuji (Plus Xena videos and Lupin III movies....It was a silly convergence of influences). Fuji was kidnapped by an Ancient Gold Dragon who put him through terrible torture until he realized he wanted to live and love again plus all that he had done up until this point was deny the pain. Later, we revealed that the Gold Dragon was an avatar of Akadi who realized Shar was endangering the whole of creation and the best champion would be one who knew her better than anyone. It was over the top but it worked for an Epic game like the TOT. Yes, we (as player and DM) agreed that that was the problem. I'm not sure he was expecting what happened, and it was one of the roles I've played that leads him to believe I'm scary good at playing Evil. (I don't like playing evil, because I find it emotionally exhausting.) Some of my best characters have been evil but you either have to lead them to their doom or some sense of permanent damnation, I think, which is not something that most people want to do with anyone they have any emotional investment in. I suppose that makes sense, though I'm sure powerful enough magic would allow him to die... Also, there's such a thing as suicide... I know, that's probably a difficult concept to contemplate, but so is living forever. Fuji has a TV trope. Death Seeker (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathSeeker) as well as The Atoner (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheAtoner) But yes, I'm hoping that after his removal from his previous high level status and climbing back up, that I can figure out what (if anything) Fuji might be able to struggle to live for again. I'm actually debating a possible Imoen match since, unlike previous girls, she's actually legal and Fuji is more vulnerable after losing almost all of his previous skills. Every game changes that version of the Realms in a myriad of ways. I suppose a DM shouldn't be too shy to change things or even shoot sacred cows. Now I've said that, don't I sound like a hypocrite regarding the changes to the Realms for 4th Ed? Well, even I know there's a difference between playing in a setting post-Nuclear War or not :-) Honestly, some of the changes struck me as WAY WAY WAY more than heavy handed. I've never felt that about elves. But I'm very much an elfophile. I always get the impression of elegance and mature beauty when I think about elves. Maybe I'm just more inspired by Cate Blanchet's portrayal of Galadriel than Deedlit of Record of Lodoss Wars. True, I try to make it clear though that all races have their own types of beauty though. As established above, there's actually beautiful Orcs in my games. The Elves are not particularly wiser, more powerful, or more awesome in my game than the humans. Ditto Dwarves. It's something that I moved away from when I was very much an Elfophile in my earlier Dming years. Treasure hunting is fraught with danger I'm aware of that, but we're speaking in different terms. You're very much in favor of the "Realms of a million different stories" (to borrow a quote from the Maltese Falcon and paraphrase it a bit). I'm much more tending to favor storylines where again there's actually not that many great epic plots going on besides what the PCs face. I try not to degrade the heroism of the PCs by suggesting there's thousands of other people who've slain evil wizards, fought hordes of darkness, and liberated the oppressed. It might be the fact that when I first started this campaign a decade ago, I was heavilly influenced by Dragonlance despite starting in the Realms. For me, it was all about the Heroes of the Lance. Yes, the Knights of Solamnia are there and the Elves with both being filled with heroes.....but we know who the Heroes of the Lance are. It's not quite so lacking in my Realms but there's probably a half-dozen groups of "Big Damn Heroes" aside from the PCs, not including the harpers. It's actually best realized in my Hyborean Age game. We've just started and here's one of the Mess' quotes. It's very different from the Forgotten Realms because there's absolutely no back up here whatsoever. There's no Harpers likely to come rushing in with spells blasting. Our characters certainly aren't heroes but it's also pretty clear we're the only thing that remotely passes for it in this entire world But my Realms isn't a DARK place because the forces of evil are likewise smaller and less lacking the "Awesome" bad guys of canon Realms as well. My above post should explain that. Well the PCs can't be "Big A" adventurers from level 1. Our first level Adventure was saving the entire city of Shadowdale from an undead army controlled by a Wight Wizard using a Wand of Animate Dead and Potions of Undead Control. They had to rely on traps and sniping plus plenty of other smartness. I like to give my PCs some "big successes" early on (and usually take this time to make sure the lethality for characters is set on "High" so they're not too attached) to justify later on being able to wander about doing good deeds where people have definitely heard of them. I'm running a generational game after all and the current crop of PCs is all the descendents of the Heroes of the Time of Troubles and the defeat of the Tuigan Horde (plus the Death of the Dragon campaign events). So they started the game with no causalties, I'm surprised to say save a really close call, and have since moved upwards significantly as heroes in their own right.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-10-08, 08:52 PM	* Year of Rogue Dragons: Bluntly, I haven't read this series and am not sure it fits my worldview if it does. I'm fond of Sammaster as a character. I take it you've heard what happens at the end of the story? I feel comfortable in thinking that you WOULDN'T want to consider that series canon (or at least, not all of it).
Charles Phipps 03-10-08, 09:02 PM	I take it you've heard what happens at the end of the story? I feel comfortable in thinking that you WOULDN'T want to consider that series canon (or at least, not all of it). *SPOILERS probably* Mostly that it's a huge Rage of the Dragons across the Realms. It also has King Gareth and the destruction of Sammaster from what I understand. Overall, I just tend to think such a large and devastating conflict is not something I want to incorporate in my games and there's no way the PCs wouldn't be involved.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-10-08, 09:13 PM	*SPOILERS probably* Mostly that it's a huge Rage of the Dragons across the Realms. It also has King Gareth and the destruction of Sammaster from what I understand. You understand correctly, 100% correctly.:) Overall, I just tend to think such a large and devastating conflict is not something I want to incorporate in my games and there's no way the PCs wouldn't be involved. Agreed. I don't think it would suit you at all.:)
The_Mess 03-10-08, 09:18 PM	What alignment was he in actual fact when he was pretending to be a LG fighter? Charlie may say he was LG, but he still comes off as True Neutral with LG Goals. And what prompted him to seek redemption? I mean, brutal mass murderers don't just wake up one day and decide to reform. :) They don't? But there was an episode of Highlander... Yes, we (as player and DM) agreed that that was the problem. I'm not sure he was expecting what happened, and it was one of the roles I've played that leads him to believe I'm scary good at playing Evil. (I don't like playing evil, because I find it emotionally exhausting.) I don't generally like playing evil characters as a player. I did, however, really enjoy our Star Wars game where a character I played was drug down into the darkness for an extended period when her principles conflicted with each other. She did eventually pull herself out (for now!), but not before having descended quite far into the dark side. My attitudes have since changed from that game. :) It's very hard to say exactly when a person becomes mature enough for sex, because it really depends on the individuals involved. There are some 14 year olds capable of handling it, and there are some 21 year olds who are not. Because of that it's usually best to be on the safe side... I know some 40 year olds who aren't mature enough to attend a PG movie, much less handle sex. Sadly, they're allowed to drive and everything. You know what. though? I think there's an interesting parallel there - is Fuji a male Xena? :) That explains the time Lisa caught him trying on a leather bustier! Every game changes that version of the Realms in a myriad of ways. I suppose a DM shouldn't be too shy to change things or even shoot sacred cows. :) Now I've said that, don't I sound like a hypocrite regarding the changes to the Realms for 4th Ed? Not really. The underlying objection to the changes, if I may be so bold, isn't, "OMG, they're CHANGING THINGS!" but "O, great, they're making changes to their game that are going to totally overwhelm my game. I must now either officially cut myself off from all subsequent canon material, gaining no further support from official books and requiring me to do a lot more work, scrap my own game world and start anew in the new version of theirs, or do a ton of more work integrating my former FR with their new changes, which will be a thankless task as each new book will require more reintegration, grrrr!" Or, shorter, THEY are changing YOUR game. That's very different from objecting to changes per se. I've never felt that about elves. But I'm very much an elfophile. Elves rule! I always get the impression of elegance and mature beauty when I think about elves. Maybe I'm just more inspired by Cate Blanchet's portrayal of Galadriel than Deedlit of Record of Lodoss Wars. Cate Blanchet... *sigh* We had an ongoing joke in the old Changeling game about Deedlit's ears being... uh... less than natural, and suited only for elf-porn.
Todesherr 03-11-08, 12:11 AM	Charlie may say he was LG, but he still comes off as True Neutral with LG Goals. They don't? But there was an episode of Highlander... I don't generally like playing evil characters as a player. I did, however, really enjoy our Star Wars game where a character I played was drug down into the darkness for an extended period when her principles conflicted with each other. She did eventually pull herself out (for now!), but not before having descended quite far into the dark side. I know some 40 year olds who aren't mature enough to attend a PG movie, much less handle sex. Sadly, they're allowed to drive and everything. That explains the time Lisa caught him trying on a leather bustier! Not really. The underlying objection to the changes, if I may be so bold, isn't, "OMG, they're CHANGING THINGS!" but "O, great, they're making changes to their game that are going to totally overwhelm my game. I must now either officially cut myself off from all subsequent canon material, gaining no further support from official books and requiring me to do a lot more work, scrap my own game world and start anew in the new version of theirs, or do a ton of more work integrating my former FR with their new changes, which will be a thankless task as each new book will require more reintegration, grrrr!" Or, shorter, THEY are changing YOUR game. That's very different from objecting to changes per se. Elves rule! Cate Blanchet... *sigh* We had an ongoing joke in the old Changeling game about Deedlit's ears being... uh... less than natural, and suited only for elf-porn. Drug is the past participle of what verb?:confused: :eek:
Charles Phipps 03-11-08, 12:17 AM	In the context of dragged.
The_Mess 03-11-08, 12:43 AM	I speak southern fluently.
Todesherr 03-11-08, 12:54 AM	I speak southern fluently. Swamp Land...yes...I see...still Ah woulda tought dat dem learned yall beda dan dat down dere....
Soltares 03-11-08, 03:57 AM	True, I try to make it clear though that all races have their own types of beauty though. As established above, there's actually beautiful Orcs in my games. The Elves are not particularly wiser, more powerful, or more awesome in my game than the humans. Ditto Dwarves. It's something that I moved away from when I was very much an Elfophile in my earlier Dming years. Same with me. In 1st and 2nd Ed, I was all-Elf, all-the-time. (Mainly because I liked multiclassing...) After the Complete Book of Elves, I took a long hard look at where Elfophilia was going, and decided that I didn't want to be an anime catgirl. For a race that has a +2 to Dex and a -2 to Con, they sure did get oversold as wiser, smarter, more beautiful, etc. none of which mechanically existed in the game, while, technically, they'd be 20% or more likely to die in childbirth, or before reaching adulthood, or of infection after combat, etc. due to their crappy Con score! I decided to make them more fey in appearance, which some might find exotic and beguiling, and others might find creepy and alien and threatening. They might move more gracefully, but their too-quick movements could be seen as threatening or 'jittery.' Their moods might seem mercurial, and those big dark eyes might be laughing at you one moment, and the next the elf has taken offense at something you've said and is drawing his blade. Moments later, they might be laughing again, while a twitching body is gurgling it's last, already forgotten by the elf, who has emotionally moved on. A strange combination of wild alien fey and animalistic temperaments, moving gracefully across the land, tasting of the world and all it has to offer in a bizarrely short-sighted manner, by human standards. Their reduced Constitution would be a heritage of their otherworldly origins. While they have spend long enough in the Material Plane, and sampled enough of it's fruits, that they remain trapped here, like Persephone, their flesh is still of another place, and some say they are but lightly-tethered to this world, floating about and easily separated by violence or contagion, compared to a human. I think that Cate Blanchette scene of Galadrial refusing the Ring, all 'beautiful and terrible as the night, treacherous as the sea, stronger than the foundations of the earth, all shall love me and despair!' is the most powerful scene in the whole damn movie, but Tolkeins elves are vastly different creatures than D&D elves, and I have ever-so-slowly managed to see them as they are in the game, not as their Tolkeinesque inspirations were presented.
Charles Phipps 03-11-08, 04:12 AM	Same with me. In 1st and 2nd Ed, I was all-Elf, all-the-time. (Mainly because I liked multiclassing...) After the Complete Book of Elves, I took a long hard look at where Elfophilia was going, and decided that I didn't want to be an anime catgirl. That book was my favorite ever when I was growing into D&D and indulged my Inner Munchkin a lot, but after the Dwarves got nothing nearly so cool, I started wondering about what it really meant. In the end, I decided to tone back my elves. http://www.nuklearpower.com/comics/060404.png
Charles Phipps 03-11-08, 04:42 AM	Elves-616 The Elves of Faerun were originally brought over from the Realm of Faerie, a Demi-plane where the Elves had largely achieved the height of their own civilization, when a series of clans were outcast from that Realm for crimes and politics that history has more or less completely muddled. Accompanying these elves were an extensive amount of servants and commoners who chose to follow their feudal leaders rather than face an uncertain future back in Faerie. Many of the later elves eventually escaped into the forests and became Wild Elves, returning to barbarism away from the influence of the Gold Elves. Though these elves did not realize it at the time, they were hardly the first elves present there. A group of Dark Elves brought by the Illithids long ago had revolted and slain their masters before turning to the worship of Ghaundaur and other evil powers by this time. This has more or less been faithfully rendered in the pages of Evermeet: Isle of Elves. The two cultures had contact, inter-breeding, war, and all the other things expected before the Crown Wars fully split the two races completely. One thing to realize about the Elves of Faerun-616 is that the Gold Elves talk a far bigger game than they possess. The Elves of Faerie, they claim, wielded powers unimaginable to human minds and crafted artifacts that mortals could not fathom. In actuality, even the legendary Lords of Faerie were paltry magicians compared to the Lords of Netheril and history has obscured their histories to the point of legend. The lingering memory of being great lords and aristocrat has still been beaten into the memory of every gold elf. Moon Elves are far friendlier however as they have no lofty pretensions towards ancient sovereignty. Unfortunately, this is changing as the Moonblades that enobled so many Moon Elves for equal power sharing in the aristocracy has started transforming many Moon Elf families into arrogant snots almost on equal parity with the Gold Elves. The great irony is both the Gold and Moon Elf families just now hate each other rather than just those beneath them and outside of them. Those who think of the elves TOO poorly for this arrogance should realize that their wistfulness is not terribly larger than most human nobles and their sense of entitlement. Elves are, in general, a slightly race that tends to be five and five feet tall with six feet being as high as they go. They are rather strong for their size, equal to humans, but lack the fortitude that mortal man possesses. Elvish lifespans encourage them to take extremely well-provisioned journeys or shorten the ways with magic due to the fact they are simply unable to push themselves the way most mortals do. Dwarves, by nature, misinterpret this as outright laziness and human beings themselves often wonder about it. It is why elvish armor is so light and they tend to prefer the bow, less so because of the inability to lift but sustained effort. Elves mature at a somewhat slower pace than humans with most not reaching the physical age of twenty until something around their one hundredth year. Elves are about the age of sixteen by their fiftieth year and only tend to spend their childhoods in swaddling clothes about half the time. In general, elves see nothing wrong with these extended childhoods and adolescences. The elvish culture is a leisurely one with most of its effort honestly more intent on finding ways to amuse itself than anything resembling work, not uncommon amongst any successful human society either. Elvish society is a socialist one with near total sexual freedom, barring the age of consent and mating with beasts according to Corellon's Law (which to elves tends to be interpreted as any non-Elvish creature and some scholars point to the evil of the Ilythari). Part of the reason Elves cherish their Ever blooming "Enchanted" forests so much is they spend centuries cultivating them so they can eat, rest, and live in them without having to work for their next meal. Those who take up trades tend to do it as a hobbyist might. Honestly, as of the present era, one can thank Kymil Nemsin and the Fey'ri since the Retreat was largely the result of Elvish apathy to doing anything about human expansion rather than any true belligerance on humanity's part. The fear and damage they caused is enough to likely motivate this generation of elves and maybe the next. Magic is far more common amongst elves than humanity, though not nearly to the extent of Halruaa or Netheril ever achieved. Usually, one in ten mages learns a smattering of spellcasting ability of some sort or another while professional Wizards hold a position roughly equivalent to Doctors in social status for someone truly talented enough to reach great heights. The only real consistently available formal magical education in the world after Halruaa's destruction is available on Evermeet and in the burgeoning island of Netheril. A wizard's academy is also in existence in Everveska but it only accepts Half-Elves or Full Blooded Elves. Elves are a race with no real sense of 'honor' to be honest. Elvish principles of war are 'kill the enemy with the least amount of causalties.' They respect oaths by their gods but any binding agreement or dirty trick imaginable in fair game for the species. Elves want to live and want to make sure any party that wishes to cause that to cease to not longer exist. Humans are often appalled, especially of those of Tempus, that find Elvish battle poems celebrate craftiness over courage. Likewise, Elves use the best materials imaginable and make things to last. Thus, the proportion of minor magical items in Elvish lands is far greater than in humans. It's just as ridiculously difficult to make a +1 Elvish Sword as it is to make a human one but the elvish wizards have a century to construct one out of Mirthil and gather mystical energy from enchanted trees. They also tend to preserve things and pass them down rather than bury them in tombs or lose them in ruins like humans. It is noteworthy almost no Great Artiffacts exist from the Elven time in this and most come from ancient Faerie, unlike humans whose most hail from their ancient Empires. Elves aren't in danger of dying out or even really in decline but it will take substantial changes in their lifestyle to make them a dominant power in the world of Man again.
The_Mess 03-11-08, 05:48 PM	Swamp Land...yes...I see...still Ah woulda tought dat dem learned yall beda dan dat down dere.... Florida's educational standards or lack thereof are not a subject you want to get into with me, at least not on this forum. On others, I'm doing my best to hold back the dark ages that some are adamant about reverting us to. Same with me. In 1st and 2nd Ed, I was all-Elf, all-the-time. (Mainly because I liked multiclassing...) After the Complete Book of Elves, I took a long hard look at where Elfophilia was going, and decided that I didn't want to be an anime catgirl. Is there something wrong with anime catgirls? :-) For a race that has a +2 to Dex and a -2 to Con, they sure did get oversold as wiser, smarter, more beautiful, etc. none of which mechanically existed in the game, while, technically, they'd be 20% or more likely to die in childbirth, or before reaching adulthood, or of infection after combat, etc. due to their crappy Con score! Yes, well, that keeps them from overpopulating the rest of the world. Elves aren't really wiser, smarter, or more beautiful in D&D. They just have a hellaciously good PR firm working for them. At least Shadowrun had the decency to give it's elves a charisma boost. But, honestly, elves as reputed would have +2 dex, +2 Wis, +4 Int, +4 Cha, maybe with negatives to Str and Con, and would be completely unplayable. (I see some of you drooling in the back.) I decided to make them more fey in appearance, which some might find exotic and beguiling, and others might find creepy and alien and threatening. On the whole, I prefer my elves a bit more alien also. The problem is that "alien" and "PC" are completely incompatible. Once the race is described in detail and everyone can read about it and play one, there's just no way to make them feel surreal and "other". In my homebrew world, elves were made a bit more psionic and explicitly human-faerie hybrids, unable to relate easily with either of their parent species. Half-elves were removed as practically oxymoronic. I played around with the idea of giving them a charisma bonus against attracted-to-them genders and a charisma penalty otherwise, but that proved unwieldy. I still like the concept, though. I think that Cate Blanchette scene of Galadrial refusing the Ring, all 'beautiful and terrible as the night, treacherous as the sea, stronger than the foundations of the earth, all shall love me and despair!' is the most powerful scene in the whole damn movie, ... I remember thinking, before seeing the film, that there was no possible way the filmmakers could capture the power of that scene in the book, so I had better gear myself up for it being disappointing. I've never been happier to be dead wrong about something in my entire life.
The_Mess 03-11-08, 05:55 PM	Elves are in danger of dying out or even really in decline but it will take substantial changes in their lifestyle to make them a dominant power in the world of Man again. I think you mean *aren't* in danger of dying out.
Charles Phipps 03-11-08, 05:57 PM	Fixed
Soltares 03-11-08, 06:10 PM	Is there something wrong with anime catgirls? :-) Most of 'em are jailbait. :) Elves aren't really wiser, smarter, or more beautiful in D&D. They just have a hellaciously good PR firm working for them. At least Shadowrun had the decency to give it's elves a charisma boost. But, honestly, elves as reputed would have +2 dex, +2 Wis, +4 Int, +4 Cha, maybe with negatives to Str and Con, and would be completely unplayable. (I see some of you drooling in the back.) And if they were even more 'Tolkeinized,' or portrayed as in some texts, they'd have a +4 Con, an increased run speed, awesome hearing and a racial +10 to all Craft and Perform skills. :) I remember thinking, before seeing the film, that there was no possible way the filmmakers could capture the power of that scene in the book, so I had better gear myself up for it being disappointing. I've never been happier to be dead wrong about something in my entire life. Yeah, that scene gave me chills.
Charles Phipps 03-11-08, 06:21 PM	FYI, currently Fuji is getting an addition to Imoen as a sidekick. In this respect, we're thinking his bouncing CN Alu-Fiend daughter from his time in the Abyss. The care of Alu-Fiend children is to always remember to pack a bottle of blood milk, 20 pounds of red meat, and keep them away from holy objects. Of course, I favor letting them touch the Symbol of Lathander once and they'll never touch it again.
The_Mess 03-11-08, 06:45 PM	Elves-616 The Elves of Faerun were originally brought over from the Realm of Faerie, a Demi-plane where the Elves had largely achieved the height of their own civilization, when a series of clans were outcast from that Realm for crimes and politics that history has more or less completely muddled. Relations with the fae seem pretty good for being outcasts. Are they forgiven? Given humans were apparently created by the Sarrukh, the elvish similarity seems a bit coincidental, but I may be overthinking things. (Begs the question, why do faerie in general look humanoid, I suppose.) In any event, that's why I homebrewed elves as the specially created faerie "ambassador experiment" that failed. Now I'm curious where Dwarves come from in 616. I can't recall having ever asked, probably due to not actually caring about Dwarves much. Accompanying these elves were an extensive amount of servants and commoners who chose to follow their feudal leaders rather than face an uncertain future back in Faerie. Does this all mean there are full elves back in Faerie? Are the other fae in 616 likewise exiles, or just slumming it? Many of the later elves eventually escaped into the forests and became Wild Elves, returning to barbarism away from the influence of the Gold Elves. Well, I'm sure the gold elves consider it barbarism. :-) Though these elves did not realize it at the time, they were hardly the first elves present there. A group of Dark Elves brought by the Illithids long ago had revolted and slain their masters before turning to the worship of Ghaundaur and other evil powers by this time. This has more or less been faithfully rendered in the pages of Evermeet: Isle of Elves. The two cultures had contact, inter-breeding, war, and all the other things expected before the Crown Wars fully split the two races completely. The illithids seem to have this ongoing problem with their slaves revolting and killing them. Have they ever successfully kept a race enslaved? I'm begining to think they aren't that big a threat. :-) One thing to realize about the Elves of Faerun-616 is that the Gold Elves talk a far bigger game than they possess. The Elves of Faerie, they claim, wielded powers unimaginable to human minds and crafted artifacts that mortals could not fathom. In actuality, even the legendary Lords of Faerie were paltry magicians compared to the Lords of Netheril and history has obscured their histories to the point of legend. The lingering memory of being great lords and aristocrat has still been beaten into the memory of every gold elf. Like I said, they hired a great PR firm. Moon Elves are far friendlier however as they have no lofty pretensions towards ancient sovereignty. Unfortunately, this is changing as the Moonblades that enobled so many Moon Elves Moonblades? Elvish lifespans encourage them to take extremely well-provisioned journeys or shorten the ways with magic due to the fact they are simply unable to push themselves the way most mortals do. Dwarves, by nature, misinterpret this as outright laziness and human beings themselves often wonder about it. It is why elvish armor is so light and they tend to prefer the bow, less so because of the inability to lift but sustained effort. I expect the typical elf response would be, "We make our armor as light as possible because only an idiot would do otherwise." Elves mature at a somewhat slower pace than humans with most not reaching the physical age of twenty until something around their one hundredth year. Elves are about the age of sixteen by their fiftieth year and only tend to spend their childhoods in swaddling clothes about half the time. In general, elves see nothing wrong with these extended childhoods and adolescences. Well, I do. AWK! Decades of diaper changes bad! The elvish culture is a leisurely one with most of its effort honestly more intent on finding ways to amuse itself than anything resembling work, not uncommon amongst any successful human society either. So, you're saying Thief was right in the 8BT comic above! Elvish society is a socialist one with near total sexual freedom, barring the age of consent and mating with beasts according to Corellon's Law (which to elves tends to be interpreted as any non-Elvish creature and some scholars point to the evil of the Ilythari). I lost track of that sentence half way through. Care to rephrase? Part of the reason Elves cherish their Ever blooming "Enchanted" forests so much is they spend centuries cultivating them so they can eat, rest, and live in them without having to work for their next meal. Those who take up trades tend to do it as a hobbyist might. Honestly, as of the present era, one can thank Kymil Nemsin and the Fey'ri since the Retreat was largely the result of Elvish apathy to doing anything about human expansion rather than any true belligerance on humanity's part. That's they way I've always seen it. The elves are sitting around in their forests, wishing humans would stop expanding and squeezing them out. Of course, what can they do? In order to stop humans, you have to reduce human numbers somehow. There are several ways to do that, some nicer than others, but the nicer end of the spectrum requires cultural dominance and the less nice end requires millitary dominance. Neither are the elves likely to have anytime soon. I suppose they could take up spiking human food supplies with saltpeter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphrodisiac)... Usually, one in ten mages learns a smattering of spellcasting ability of some sort or another while professional Wizards hold a position roughly equivalent to Doctors in social status for someone truly talented enough to reach great heights. Given their heritage of fae blood, it has always struck me as extremely odd that their favored class is wizard instead of sorceror. Sure, they have the time to devote to learning wizardry with their long lives, but their society never seems to have the infrastructure to really suggest it's widely done. I'd move them to sorceror. The only real consistently available formal magical education in the world after Halruaa's destruction is available on Evermeet and in the burgeoning island of Netheril. A wizard's academy is also in existence in Everveska but it only accepts Half-Elves or Full Blooded Elves. Which is what I mean. Schools for wizards are pretty rare.
The_Mess 03-11-08, 06:50 PM	Most of 'em are jailbait. :) Kittens grow up faster. I'm sure it's okay! And if they were even more 'Tolkeinized,' or portrayed as in some texts, they'd have a +4 Con, an increased run speed, awesome hearing and a racial +10 to all Craft and Perform skills. :) I'd give tolkein-elves massive numbers of extra skill points to represent accumulated talents over their long lives rather than any particular bonuses.
Charles Phipps 03-11-08, 08:02 PM	Relations with the fae seem pretty good for being outcasts. Are they forgiven? Elves, as a whole, are unwelcome to return to Faerie. That doesn't mean the plane isn't routinely brought into alignment with spots in Faerun or that elven forests don't typically lack bleedover. Certain elvish holy days involve re-aquainting themselves with Fairie's energies and the Fair Folk, which humans tend to find insane. In general, the elves are treated rather amicably by their 'distant cousins' but only slightly moreso than humans (a fact Elves would be galled by if they acknowledged it). Elvish relations are much better with their fellow outcasts that have gone on to form their own tribes of Satyrs, Leprechauns, and so forth. In general, the Gold Elves try to avoid acknowledging that the Sidhe Elves don't even consider them Fae anymore but more like pointy earred humans. Few are aching to return to Faerie though, since Evermeet is pretty much identical in most of the nicer ways and lacking godlike fae lords they'd have to answer to. Given humans were apparently created by the Sarrukh, the elvish similarity seems a bit coincidental, but I may be overthinking things. (Begs the question, why do faerie in general look humanoid, I suppose.) In any event, that's why I homebrewed elves as the specially created faerie "ambassador experiment" that failed. Well, let's not forget that the Sarrukh and Elves were both created by Lathander. However, in general, the Fae and Outsiders like them are Elemental beings as old as the Dreams and Elements that spawned them. They appear human, in large part, simply because it's the style that suits them or they're visiting humans at the time. The genies, for example, just really enjoy aping human culture because there's no end to weird little rituals that we come up with and its an endless source of amusement to races that get bored very easilly. Now I'm curious where Dwarves come from in 616. I can't recall having ever asked, probably due to not actually caring about Dwarves much. Dwarves in 616, escaped from slavery by the giants on the Elemental Plane of Earth where they achieved liberation by helping the Gods of Ysgard overthrow the Giant gods. Together the pair won a great Nordic style epic victory I never got around to detailing. This is when the Aesir first came to Faerun, or their remnants since that was probably Ragnarok, but well before Tyr became a God of Law and Goodness. The Dwarves pretty much maintained a healthy relationship with the early humans in large part because they believed them, rightly or wrongly, to be the descendants of the people who helped liberate them. Oddly, I have Gold Dwarves as an unwelcome offshoot of the original Dwarven Race that's mostly become corrupted by opulance and magic over traditional Dwarvish values that Shield Dwarves follow. Does this all mean there are full elves back in Faerie? Yes, truly immortal elves with the Outsider Template and ridiculously high stats are called "Sidhe" to rip from Changeling the Dreaming and the Ravenloft supplement Shadow Rift. They'd be Tolkien-esque elves if most of them weren't such utter :censored: The illithids seem to have this ongoing problem with their slaves revolting and killing them. Have they ever successfully kept a race enslaved? I'm beginning to think they aren't that big a threat. :-) In general, Illithids have a habit of letting their scientific curiosity get the better of them. By nature, Illithids are more interested in expanding their understanding of the universe and twisted scientific practices than anything resembling human pursuits. Being that they don't have sex, eat anything but brains, and don't sleep....well they have to do something to pass the time. Thus, Illithids routinely have problems genetically enhancing their slaves to the point that it becomes impractical to keep them. While it's unimportant to Faerun games, unfortunately the Illithids control humans of nightmarish worlds out in the 616-Prime Material Plane's Space. ...It's just a shadow of what it once was. They're also responsible for the Imaskar and that particular culture's atheism mixed with absurd intelligence/hideous technology. Are the other fae in 616 likewise exiles, or just slumming it? Faerun is a bit of a dumping ground, though hardly the only one. You can't sneeze in some places without getting exiled. But yes, losing your immortality and godlike power is enough to make most Gold Elves twitchy even on a subconscious level many generations later. Moonblades? An FR-ism you haven't encountered. In short, Arthur legend x 10. Corellon gave the Moon Elves two dozen or so blades that will determine what houses should rule amongst the elves by whose family successfully has a member that can wield one. If you're unworthy, the blades kill you instantly. The Gold Elves are horrified since they lost pretty much their entire power base since almost none of them are humble enough to wield the weapons. In fact, most established Moon Elf houses (at least in 616) are intelligent enough to NOT wield their moonblade but keep it as a status symbol. The most famous wielder is Arilyn Moonblade. She's a problem for Elven theologians because she's a HALF-Elf moonblade wielder. Fuji acknowledges they're the best blades in the world and is really annoyed he can't have one. I lost track of that sentence half way through. Care to rephrase? No pedophilia, no mating with non-elves. The later ritual is most observed in its being ignored. The Ilythari are Elvish Werewolves and pretty much as disliked in our games as human werewolves despite the fact they're relatively nice guys. I suppose they could take up spiking human food supplies with saltpeter... Elves are about a tenth as fertile as human beings, so they're quite perplexed really how they BREED so easilly. (of course, they also use birth control since they have way way more sex than most humans too) Elvish Courting Ritual Elvish Male: Wanna have sex? Elvish Girl: Sure! Given their heritage of fae blood, it has always struck me as extremely odd that their favored class is wizard instead of sorceror. Sure, they have the time to devote to learning wizardry with their long lives, but their society never seems to have the infrastructure to really suggest it's widely done. I'd move them to sorceror. Honestly, I never much liked Favored Class to begin with. Elves are Good with Magic, Elvish Sorcerers are very common (often being formally trained as wizards), and Elvish Rangers are also great. Elves *SUCK* at being barbarians and paladins. Marcus: For the Glory of Sune! http://www.emulationgalaxy.co.yu/images/manga/lodoss/parn.jpg Pinea: *snore* Mmmmm sunbeam. http://animeaj.com/pix/deedlit.jpg Marcus: Hello! Big Battle coming! Pinea: Purrrr.
The_Mess 03-11-08, 09:00 PM	Elves, as a whole, are unwelcome to return to Faerie. Faerie: "They were bad enough when we exiled them and they've picked up so many bad habits on the material world." Certain elvish holy days involve re-aquainting themselves with Fairie's energies and the Fair Folk, which humans tend to find insane. Kerri: "Re-aquainting themselves with Fairie energy, he says. SURE! That's what they're doing!" (Sorry, non-Charlie people, In-joke.) Well, let's not forget that the Sarrukh and Elves were both created by Lathander. You're saying they were made in Lathander's image? :-) In general, Illithids have a habit of letting their scientific curiosity get the better of them. By nature, Illithids are more interested in expanding their understanding of the universe and twisted scientific practices than anything resembling human pursuits. Being that they don't have sex, eat anything but brains, and don't sleep....well they have to do something to pass the time. I'd say they resembled me, but I don't eat brains. Thus, Illithids routinely have problems genetically enhancing their slaves to the point that it becomes impractical to keep them. Kinda of like when I genetically engineered Kudzoo from ordinary morning glory? As long as the state of Georgia doesn't figure out it was me, I should be okay. Don't tell them, or post it on any public forums or anything. Corellon gave the Moon Elves two dozen or so blades that will determine what houses should rule amongst the elves by whose family successfully has a member that can wield one. If you're unworthy, the blades kill you instantly. The Gold Elves are horrified since they lost pretty much their entire power base since almost none of them are humble enough to wield the weapons. Humility as a requirement for leadership? Surely that's an oxymoron. In fact, most established Moon Elf houses (at least in 616) are intelligent enough to NOT wield their moonblade but keep it as a status symbol. Gold Elf: "I could wield it if I wanted, but to use such a spiritual symbol in less than a total emergency would be to desecrate it." The most famous wielder is Arilyn Moonblade. She's a problem for Elven theologians because she's a HALF-Elf moonblade wielder. Good thing, because with that last name, it would have been silly if she couldn't. Fuji acknowledges they're the best blades in the world and is really annoyed he can't have one. Maybe he could fool the sword if he got his ears pointed. How advanced is plastic surgery in 616? Maybe he could talk to a Lathander about inventing a mechanical rice picker... The Ilythari are Elvish Werewolves and pretty much as disliked in our games as human werewolves despite the fact they're relatively nice guys. I was going to play one of those at one point, just to do something different. Elves are about a tenth as fertile as human beings, so they're quite perplexed really how they BREED so easilly. It's all explained easily. Let's just say one of the reasons human males like elf girls is PMS occurs only once every ten years. Honestly, I never much liked Favored Class to begin with. I don't so much object to "favored class" as I do to xp penalties for unbalanced multiclassing, which never made sense to me. Get rid of those and favored class becomes meaningless.
Valgard 03-19-08, 04:08 AM	Ghaundaur (The Crimson King, The Crawling Chaos, The Eternal Hunger, The Unnameable Horror, The Unspeakable One, The Elder Elemental Evil) Greater God of the Abyss Portfolio: Chaos, Madness, The Unspeakable Aliases: Azathoth, Flagg (is an avatar of), Jubilex (is an avatar of), Tharizdun (avatar of), Snarl, Nyarlathtotep (other manifestation), The Red Death Alignment: Chaotic Evil Superior: None Allies: Demonkind (unknowing), Gra'azt (unknowing), Great Old Ones, Moander (formerly), The Great Mother, Lolth (unknowing), Pale Night, Shar, Talos (unknowingly) Enemies: All beings that live, Ao, The Elemental Lords Symbol: A burning candle of human flesh with a singe red eye on it Domains: Chaos, Evil, Destruction, Madness Worshiper's Alignment: CN, CE From the new Dragon article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080318a Shothragot in Faerūn Instead of being an avatar of Tharizdun, Shothragot is the creation of Ghaunadaur, an entity spawned to shatter the worshipers of all other gods and enable the Elder Eye to become master of all things. Shothragot is the principal instrument in his plans and the elder evil slaughters the worshipers of other gods to weaken them. Once the gods are brought low, Ghaunadaur plans to move against them, stealing their power for himself until he can challenge the architect of the universe -- Ao himself. It seems, Charles, that Mr. Schwalb has read your thread or, at least, you have some kind of... convergent ideas. :tongue:
Charles Phipps 03-19-08, 04:21 AM	Hehe, I saw this coming from Grand History of the Realms. Of course, I added my own tweaks to Ghaundaur. My version of Ghaundaur is tied not only to The Dark Tower series, The Order of the Stick Comic, The Cthulhu Mythos, but also the Masque of the Red Death Ravenloft campaign! So who do people want to see next?
Charles Phipps 03-19-08, 04:48 AM	Shevarash (The Black Archer, Glorious Blade of the Seldarine, The Avenger of Pains, The Vengeful Elf Lord, The Orc Slayer, The Drow Crusher, The Human Bane) Lesser God of The Beastlands Portfolio: Blind Rage, Blood Feuds, Elven Vengeance, Loss, Unthinking Hatred, Self-Justification, Oathbreaking Aliases: Bexthor Alignment: Chaotic Evil Superior: Shar Allies: Beshaba, Fenmarel Mestarine, Hoar, Silvanus, Talos Enemies: Eilistraee, Gruumsh, Lolth, Malar, Mask, Vhaeraun, Xvim Domains: Chaos, Elf, Retribution, War Shevarash (Shev-AR-Ash) is now the subject of a lesson. Hatred consumes everything that makes an elf what they are. Once, the god was a dire but loved champion of the Seldarine but now he is banished from their sight and an oath breaker. His hatred of those whom have persecuted elves has consumed him and it is no longer a matter of whether he will be redeemed but when he will be put down. Shevarash is a god that appears as a intense eyed wood-elf that's physically perfect but utterly dead in his eyes. The man wears the attire of a ranger but it is dyed utterly black. Shevarash's arrows are made from utterly blackened wood that is supposedly grown from trees fed with the blood of his enemies. History and Relationships: Shevarash was once a legendary hero of the elves and the greatest Arcane Archer to ever walk the races of mortals. He was known as a legendary slayer of Orcs and Drow with literally thousands of kills at his hands. Shevarash was always an intense enemy of evil but he was able to take comfort in the arms of his bride and his unusually large family. In the end, Shevarash had his family stolen from him by the Drow. Shevarash then proceeded to invade the Underdark itself on a quest to slay Lolth herself. He and his brethren eventually destroyed the legendary Vault of the Drow and perished at the hands of Lolth's avatar but not before wounding her. Corellon Latherian never cared for Shevarash but Fenmarel Mestarine believed the elves needed a god to direct the forces of their anger over the Crown Wars. The legendary hero was a rallying cry and Fenmarel Mestarine with Solonor Thelandira elevated him to Demigod status. Unfortunately, Arvandor did not heal his wounds as somehow his experiences in the Underdark prevented him from returning to his loved one's arms in a most un-Elf like pain. He dedicated himself to the destruction of Lolth above all things. In the end, Shevarash's constantly fed anger was unable to be overcome by Arvandor's glories. The growing power of humans, the atrocities by Orcs, and other indignities that elves suffered were things that grated on his ever blackening heart. In direct countermand to Corellon Latherian's law, he supported the Eldreth Veluuthra in violently murdering human beings for no other reason than their race. He came to secretly support the persecution of The Dark Maiden's followers and even Kymil Nemsin's rebellion when he knew that it would wage a stronger war against humanity. When the Champion of Lolth died, he broke his oath to Corellon to not smile until Lolth died. For upon the death of Selvetarm, he let out an insane and mocking laughter. Now the Black Archer is banished from the Seldarine for his many misdeeds. Fenmarel Mestarine believes he can be returned from his status as an exile and redeemed but most of the Seldarine agree that he is a lost cause. The Vengeful Elf Lord's worship is now considered a heresy amongst Elven priests on Evermeet. With his fall, the Vengeful Elf Lord has made numerous new allies despite his intense hatred of most human deities. Whatever encourages mankind to destroy itself and its peoples is welcome by his reckoning. For the most part, Shevarash's worshipers still focus their wrath upon the traditional enemies of the elves. They have simply added human beings to their list of vermin to exterminate and quite a few view them as well down the totem pole of things to destroy (moderates of Shevarash's followers believe humans don't need to be exterminated like Orcs or Drow, they simply need to be culled of about 80% or so of their race before being made to not breed so rapidly out of control anymore). With his separation from the Seldarine, Shevarash no longer bothers the pretense of tolerating the Dark Maiden's followers and has decreed they must die with the rest of their black skinned brethren. Because he is an Elf Lord, Shevarash is a honor-less god in his genocide and encourages his followers to use plague or subterfuge in order to bring about their enemies' death whenever possible. Thus, many of Shevarash's followers have taken up the unusual trade of selling arms and other devices to human beings in order to help them exterminate each other as rapidly as possible. Most of their weapons sales are conducted well away from elf haunts or have minor geas associated with them to prevent them from being used against elf kind when magical in nature. The acts of The Black Archer's faithful have inflamed the hatreds of many amongst humans and orcs. While the later rarely need any excuse to kill elves, humans who might otherwise be friends with elves have been turned against them thanks to their atrocities. Even Dwarves, who tend to believe elvish tales over humans whenever conflict emerges between the two races, have been confronted with the nasty and brutal side of their rivals. Shevarash seems unaware that if it came down to a race war between elves and mankind, that elves would lose badly. Gods of human supremacy like Xvim have found this act a most welcome development. Shevarash, unless someone kills Xvim first, will ultimately perish at the hands of the Baneson. This is due to the fact that Shevarash loathes the deity's genocidal beliefs that so many humans clings to and unconsciously recognizes a warped mirror. Unfortunately, the Baneson doesn't actually care about what shape his worshiper's take and this will be the Black Archer's downfall. In the end, Xvim will almost certainly seize the worship of the Elves that follow him and his face. If Shevarash survives, a worse fate exists for a new subrace of elves, Fire Elves will emerge, dedicated solely to murdering all but The People. Dogma: Slaughter the enemies of the elves. All of them. If there is a Drow child or an Orc cub then it will grow up into a monster. Slay it in its bed and kill its mother. If there is a foe of these races that begs for mercy then slaughter it for it is incapable of the joys that an elf is. Bury your feelings and know that the sacrifices you make are worthwhile in protecting your race. Do not let the purity of Elf-kind be diluted by other races and especially do not be fooled by human lies. Some humans may sympathize with Elf kind but in the end, their race is simply too brutish and cruel to ever be anything but a foe.
SteelGeneral 03-19-08, 07:06 AM	Out of curiosity, why is Silvanus considered one of Sheverash's allies when nearly all of the other ones listed are "evil" or at least "chaotic"? - doesn't seem to make sense
Valgard 03-19-08, 10:59 AM	This attitude of Shevarash can be described as an usual expression here in Spain: "A SACO!" :elf: Out of curiosity, why is Silvanus considered one of Sheverash's allies when nearly all of the other ones listed are "evil" or at least "chaotic"? - doesn't seem to make senseBecause Fenmarel is close to Silvanus, if not an alias in Charles' Faerūn. And as far as he tells, Fenmarel is the only member of the Seldarine capable of, not justifying, but at least trust a bit in Shevarash.
Charles Phipps 03-19-08, 01:47 PM	Out of curiosity, why is Silvanus considered one of Sheverash's allies when nearly all of the other ones listed are "evil" or at least "chaotic"? - doesn't seem to make sense Mostly it's a case of his Neutrality. Silvanus has nothing truly against humanity but doesn't mind taking advantage of Shevarash's proactive defense of the forests. In truth, he's not fond of the man or his creed but Silvanus takes whatever aid he can.
SteelGeneral 03-19-08, 02:28 PM	OK, that makes sense - thanks for the response
SmartPaladin 03-20-08, 02:53 PM	Wow... And I kinda liked Shevarash. But you've turned him into a beast that even I would kill. And I'm a sucker for the thought of redeption. Provided that they willingly seek it. I do however, wonder how long it will be until someone calls to Assuran (Hoar) for Vengeance against the faithful of Shevarash in your world. That'd be a fairly quick way to end an alliance I would think.
Charles Phipps 03-20-08, 03:05 PM	Yeah, I always liked Shevarash myself. However, he's a god that is about as Un-Elvish as you can possibly get. Given the rising number of Drow to be redeemed and the Orcs, it occurred to me that his Fall would be an interesting plot arc. Also, it would help to give the Eldreth Veluuthra a patron god since I always felt they sorta got the shaft.
SmartPaladin 03-20-08, 03:22 PM	Yeah, I could see that. Ah well, good job on Shevarash Charles. Look forward to who you have up next.
Charles Phipps 03-20-08, 06:45 PM	The Twisted Rune-616 The Twisted Rune in 616, for all intents and purposes, serves as the secret governing body of Abeir-Toril. All of them are Epic Level Magicians and pretty much hold the remaining survivors of Netheril and Imaskari. The return of Netheril is something that they've secretly manipulated to replace the Balance of Power following Halruaa's destruction but King Telamont has almost no idea that he exists only at their sufferance. In general, The Twisted Rune are evil but only in the context that they destroy Empires and lives with the same kind of causal disdain that you or I might crush an insect. They invite into their cabal only those magicians that have achieved an Epic Level of Magical Mastery but are also interested in altering the courses of world history from the shadows. The Twisted Rune rejects magicians who are interested in the trappings of power or are stupid enough to follow agendas beyond that of greater knowledge and power. The magicians they've rejected for membership have included Halastar the Mad, Telamont the Lord of Shadow, and a half dozen others. Larloch is a nominal member but has expressed no desire to do anything but continue his research while Elminster is the only being to ever turn down membership (and live). They are currently considering Ssass Tam for membership and expect to invite Manshoon to join their ranks if he lasts another three hundred years or so. The magical power available to the Twisted Rune is, to not put too fine a point on it, unfathomable. If you are to come to the attention of the body, there is effectively no force in Abeir-Toril but the hand of a god that can protect you from destruction. Anything less would be easilly cast aside with their spells and you would perish without any chance to defend oneself against their might. The Twisted Rune's agenda is arcane, pun intended, to say the least. Effectively, they exist to attempt to forward the knowledge of magic while keeping society from expanding out of control. It is partially due to the Twisted Rune's meddling that the technology level of the Forgotten Realms is stagnated at a Renassiance level with some higher and lower elements. The Twisted Rune are capable of creating a mild mental barrier in the minds of the whole of the continent to scientiffic discovery beyond certain barriers. The Twisted Rune have been known to do some beneficial dealings for Abeir-Toril. They have protected Abeir-Toril from Spelljammer invasion, destroyed at least one rogue comet heading to the planet, defended against assault from other dimensions, and even arranged for the downfall of several minor deities. There is a subtle human-bias to the organization despite its largely undead nature that has also lead to said race's prevalance of power despite the fact they are somewhat weaker than other species. While the Twisted Rune may seem to be omnipotent and really have the power to dictate history as they see fit, they are also a bit of a paper tiger as well. The Twisted Rune defends the 'sovereignty of free will' only to the extent that the gods allow themselves to. They have precious few defenses against the meddling of the divine and the loss of the Weave crippled the organization for the better part of a year. Likewise, they are often playing defense against the meddling of ancient beings like the Archdevils or Demon Princes. In terms of game use, the Twisted Rune is a group known only to exist by a handful of individuals. The Chosen of the Gods, certain Archwizards, and perhaps a rare few individuals possess the mental aclarity to avoid the spells that automatically erase knowledge of the group from any mind that discovers evidence of them. Overall, most consider it a necessary evil despite the heavy handed decisions that they make. Known Members of the Twisted Rune * Valance (Deceased) One of the founding members and a Sarrukh, Valance set the agenda for the Twisted Rune to keep the world's magical knowledge progressing but also making sure that no civilization ever grew too powerful to threaten total destruction of the world again. Valance's death caught the Twisted Rune by surprise but have termed it an abberation. * Shoon VII (Lich) A figure currently 'chairing' the Twisted Rune. Shoon VII finds the group largely uninterested in anything but having the awesome power that they possess than doing anything with it. It bothers him since he believes that they should set themselves up to rule everything in a more direct manner rather than simply influence things as they feel inclined. * Irenicus (Baelnorn) Jon Irenicus remains one of the most active of the Twisted Rune and focused on achieving godhood at the expense of all others. He's particularly galled that a set of beings like Finder, Mystra, Velsharoon, and others can achieve immortality that is denied him. He is a secret benefactor of many of the Elven secret societies currently in existence out of hatred of his own race. * Zhengyi (Deceased) Zhengyi the Witch King transformed Damara & Vaasa into, effectively, just his personal research laboratory and ruled there for such a time that the populous knew little else. His assassination by King Gareth is less the result of his awesome defeat of gods and demigods than the fact that it was much more likely a form of suicide on his part. * Larloch (Demilich) As remains, a nearly omnipotent wizard and the most powerful in all of Abeir-Toril that simply cares nothing for the affairs of mortal man. His laboratory complex is actually a Demi-Plane Dyson-Sphere in the Ethereal Plane. Larloch's power is such that he actually has hollowed out the Core of Abeir-Toril and made the Hollow Earth there, which formed the basis for his Demi-Plane. Larloch is the only Demilich on Abeir-Toril. * The Serpent Queen (Sarrukh) Another nearly omnipotent magician, The Serpent Queen mostly lives on her artificial island in the sea and is the subject of various Medusa like legends. The Serpent Queen is surprisingly hedonistic for a Lich and often assumes a mortal visage to enjoy the pleasures of the flesh. She is the subject of various "Circe" like legends in the Realms.
Charles Phipps 03-21-08, 06:51 PM	Updated the Thay entry. http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15135973&postcount=178
Charles Phipps 03-21-08, 07:30 PM	The Zhentarim-616 The Zhentarim, post Spell Plague, are currently at the strongest they've ever been. The power of the organization extends from several sources and none of them can be called weak by themselves. National Power: The Nation of Zhentilar covers roughly everything from the end of the Border Forest to the Galan Mountains with all the roads north of the Dalelands having to go through their territories in order to progress. The nations of Thar and all of its various chieftains have more or less pledged their allegiance to Fzoul Chembryl while only the united lands of Damara and Vaasa (now called "The Kingdom of Bloodstone") manage to keep them from expanding further. In truth, even that land is likely to fall under their power soon enough. Zhentil Keep has been completely rebuilt by this time and it is a thriving city almost as large as Suzail. The place is a grim, unpleasant, and oppressive place but there are relatively large concentrations of wealth in those that have served the nation faithfully. The foreign quarters are filled with spies as well but few of them are places where a person is afraid to laugh or enjoy himself. Great portraits of Fzoul Chembyrl fill the place at every corner and the place seems a monument to his cult of personality. The Black Network: The Black Network remains, as ever, the most powerful organization in Faerun and only likely to continue to grow despite the constant efforts of the Harpers to halt their advance and thwart their misdeeds. The Forgotten Realms version of S.P.E.C.T.R.E., the Zhentarim have wealth equal to Sembia or the Church of Waukeen even without bringing in the wealth of the Nation of Zhentilar. The Black Network has enclaves (almost identical in rules to the Thayan Enclaves) in almost every major city in the continent of Faerun with the exception of Silverymoon and Waterdeep. These places are centers for illegal trading, smuggling, slavery, graft, and other evils but rarely for the truly devastating plots that the Zhentarim wish to carry out for their fell purposes. The Zhentarim's current goals are the subversion of the Night Masks under their power, the defeat of the Arcane Brotherhood in Luskan, and playing on the chaos in Baldur's Gate to take over that nation. The Church of Bane: The Church of the Lawgiver has become little more than another tool for the Zhentarim to spread their evil power over the host of Abeir-Toril. The High Imperceptor is nothing but a puppet for Fzoul Chembryl and the converts that are brought to Bane are just more individuals meant to spread the idealogy of control that the Zhentarim believes in. Many individual members of the Church of the Lawgiver are nothing more than agents of the Black Network that happen to hide behind their religious titles. They find that members of the Black Network are often genorous donaters to the Temple and expect the ecclectical influence of the faith to encourage a dogma that supports their efforts. Magical Power: Through the power of Velsharoon, in the service of Bane, most of the Black Network's wizards regained their magical powers rather quickly after the advent of the Spell Plague. The Zhents have also been stockpiling magic ever since their takeover and working to make sure that they alone have access in the wake of the event. The Black Network pales in magical power to the Red Wizards of Thay, the Elves, or the Netherese but are probably the 4th or 5th largest organization of wizards afterwards when you count the Church of Selune. The Black Network's wizards tend to offer lip service to the Church of Bane but most actually worship Azuth or revere Manshoon to the exclusion of a proper deity. Military Assets: The Zhentarim's Armies are composed of mercenaries in the service of the Black Network, the nation of Zhentilar's armies, and the religious forces of the Church of Bane. The various powers include many that have been recruited into the organization's service from all over Faerun with the promise of gold or power. The majority of these individuals are nothing more than arrow fodder to Fzoul Chembryl but has a virtually uneding supply of 'mooks.' Unlike the Thayans who only use their nonhuman armies as slaves, the Zhentilar are actually one of the only organizations in Faerun that employs humanoids as equals to humans. This has resulted in the Zhents having a reputation as employing armies of monsters but also has disproportionately prediposed 'civilized' monsters to view the Black Network in a favorable light. Government: Through the many webs and counter-webs of the Black Network's influence, all of it ultimately leads to Fzoul Chembryl and Manshoon whom hold the sinister titles of Number One and Number Two in the organization amongst their many other ranks. The Council of Zhentil Keep has also been restructed into the Black Sanctum Council that is composed of eleven additional members to Manshoon with Fzoul holding autocratic authority to overrule any of their actions. The Black Sanctum Council's membership is fairly fluid but it is composed of men whom wield power more than anyone else save perhaps Cormyr's Kings. Goals: The Zhentarim wish to rule the whole of Abeir-Toril. After some initial rough steps in their first century of life, they've managed to build an Empire nearly as large as Imperial Cormyr while spreading their influence over a large portion of Faerun. Fzoul Chembyrl is immortal and thus believes it's entirely possible that he will see the domination of the world in his lifetime. The majority of the Black Network's schemes and plots are focused on bringing nations underneath their fell influence. Many times has an individual conflict been orchestrated between feuding nobles or clergies with the Zhents then approaching one side or the other in other to give them the help they need to crush their enemies. Allies: The Red Wizards of Thay have collaborated with the Zhentariam on many occasions but neither is particularly fond of the other due to the fact both realize they'll eventually turn against one another. The Netherse of Shade have also recognized the Black Network are excellent middle men for handling their activities. The Church of Shar has been known to also employ their services and vice versa. Currently, the Zhentarim are approaching the Kingdom of Many Arrows and becoming fast friends with the Orcs there in the hopes of taking it over as they did the nation of Thar. Enemies: The Harpers are the only organization that can match the Zhentariam blow for blow and the Spell Plague's disastrous effects means that it's been a century of unmitigated success for the Black Network. Nevertheless, as Selune has established herself as patroness of magic, it's quite likely that the Zhents will once more find their growth slowed down to a crawl unless they can discover some way to strike at the heart of the organization. Cormyr is the main national enemy of Zhentilar and its recent aquisition of the Dalelands means that there is no conceivable military way to conquer said region. With the Elves of Cormanthor allied with the humans, the Zhents would face a force that could well destroy them. Thus, a Cold War currently exists between the two factions with Sembia being a place that both hope to influence to their side or another. The Elves have started to realize the Black Network is a powerful foe and no friend to Evermeet or Myth Drannor. Finally, the Cyrcists of the Iron Throne remain one of the few groups that knows the Zhentariam and their efforts intimately. They have allied with the Knights of the Shield in order to try and prevent the Zhentariam's further expansion so they can enrich themselves. Fzoul fully intends to destroy the Devil worshipers and the Cyricists before dealing with the Harpers. Influences * Ian Fleming's SPECTRE. * SD-6 from Alias. * G.I. Joe's Cobra. * The Illuminati myth. * Eberron's Aurrum (though oddly one could say my version of the Aurrum was the Zhents)
HVulpes 03-21-08, 09:15 PM	Curious about what you are going to do with Manshroon. There was a rumour in Candlekeep (or it was what I saw), that it was the "True" Manshroon who started the Manshroon Wars. That he had a way of gaining the knowledge and experience of the clones as well as being able to take control of them at any time without their knowledge. What do you think?
Charles Phipps 03-21-08, 10:59 PM	Curious about what you are going to do with Manshroon. There was a rumour in Candlekeep (or it was what I saw), that it was the "True" Manshroon who started the Manshroon Wars. That he had a way of gaining the knowledge and experience of the clones as well as being able to take control of them at any time without their knowledge. What do you think? Manshoon is up next! http://library.galciv2.com/mvlib/ss/Fullview_COBRA_COMMANDER.png
Charles Phipps 03-21-08, 11:14 PM	Manshoon-616 Neutral Evil Human Male 14th Level Wizard/5th Level Archmage Ultimately, the Manshoon in 616 never actually had a Manshoon War because I could never quite justify such a bizarre event in-game while keeping a straight face. It didn't really fit my idea of the Realms that you could have a dozen clones of the most powerful wizard in the world after Elminster running around without effectively All Hell breaking loose. I did, however, incorporate elements of the Manshoon Wars into my games for the purposes of making the character still recognizable to those who wanted to bring up his propensity towards cloning. Part of the reason that Manshoon never got so deep into cloning in my games was the fact that Manshoon never died all that much because Elminster wasn't that much more powerful than him. In a confrontation between them, Elminster might win or Manshoon might and neither wanted to really test that boundry between them. While no one really knows about the Twisted Rune amongst the various mages of the Forgotten Realm, people have certainly heard of Khelben the Ninth (as the Blackstaff refers to himself) or Elminster. They've also heard of Manshoon whom is generally ranked up as one of the most powerful wizards in the Forgotten Realms and one of THE figures that cause people to quake in their boots. A few Zulkirs have tried their hands against "The Peasant Wizard" and found themselves dead at his hands. Manshoon is a master of deception, illusion, lies, and cunning. Rather than trust his business to lesser mages, Manshoon keeps approximately 10-20 Clones of himself active at any given time that have a fraction of his actual power. These are not typical D&D clones but Manshoon's Baleful Clones that effectively are not the original but a form of golem that have his memories and a portion of his life force in them. They are far weaker than the regular Manshoon (10th-14th level) but extremely cunning and usually in charge of the monstrous mage's many plots. A few of these clones have been flawed, whether by transformation or other methods, and rebelled against Manshoon. The Night King in Westgate was actually planned by Manshoon as a means of taking over the city and the Night Masks. Unfortunately, the vampirism process eroded Manshoon's magical controls over his clone and allowed it to become an enemy. It's almost certain the original Manshoon will eventually do some vampirism and the Zhentarim will seize control of the city but a typical Manshoon War would be such an elaborate game of cat and mouse that mortals would wonder what the Hell was going on but never really find out. Manshoon is a nice contrast in my games to Fzoul Chembyrl because he's really just an honorless :censored: with no higher goals than the accumulation of power and it's solidification. Manshoon is especially interested in the aquisition of magical objects, magical lore, and ancient technology from the Lost Empires. Telamont failed twice and lost high ranking several Shades when he attempted to seize some powerful Netherese artifacts from Manshoon. Manshoon is the current custodian of the Hand and Eye of Vecna, though he's intelligent enough to not use them. Manshoon has his good qualities in that he's a surprisingly adept leader and a sincere worshiper of Mystra along with Azuth. He has no desire to ally with the Church of Shar anymore than necessary and really disdains Bane as a fool. He's privately helped the Harpers on numerous occasions through his many moles in eliminating Churches and Temples to the Night Goddess. It is Manshoon's sincere hope that all traces of the Shadow Weave can be eliminated. Likewise, he's interested in aiding Mask's church in eliminating that of Cyric, though to a lesser extent since he considers Cyric a fool that will self-destruct on his own. Manshoon has also outlawed demon worship amongst the Zhents and only deals with them via slavery spells. Manshoon's once vice is he's omnivorous in his sexual habits and prolific. Many young mages have managed to unearth portions of his vast magical collection of secrets by offering themselves to his body. Fzoul frankly is appalled by it and wishes Manshoon would simply start a harem rather than encouraging mages to debase themselves before him like that. In truth, Manshoon is largely arroused by the prospect of otherwise potent mages demeaning themselves for his knowledge.
Charles Phipps 03-22-08, 02:39 AM	Lolth (The Queen of Chaos, The Spider Queen, Queen of the Demonweb Pits, The Demon Queen of the 66th Layer) Lesser Goddess of the Abyss Portfolio: Betrayal, Drow, Chaos, Jealousy, Misandry, Spiders, Spite, The Underdark Alignment: Chaotic Evil Aliases: Lilith, Lilitu, Lloth, Lamia Allies: Abbathor, Asmodeus, Gruumsh, Loviatar, Malar, Shar, Talos Enemies: Eilistraee, Lathander, Mask, The Seldarine, Shevarash Domains: Chaos, Evil, Destruction, Retribution Worshiper's Alignment: CN, NE, CE Favored Weapon: Whip Lolth (LOL-th) is a woman whom has constantly shaken her fist towards the heavens of Arborea and involved herself in all manner of horrific alliances. She is a woman whom nearly brought down the whole of creation in the Second War of Chaos and brought herself to the mantle of Greater God status. Recently, Lolth has brought herself down to a status barely above what she was when she first started her many gambles. The Queen of Chaos may yet rise anew to greater heights or be slain forever, the ending is not yet written. Lolth's classic form is that of a beautiful Drow maiden with the body of a Spider or a Spider with merely a white faced Elvish head. She has many other forms and most of them are disarmingly comely. Lolth despises anything that is more beautiful than she and thus attempts to be the most lovely thing at all times. Despite rumors to the contrary, she has no particular fondness for the Drow form and it is merely the type she enjoys. History: Lolth's tale begins in the early days of Creation where she was the daughter of Selune with Shar. The legends that portray her as the sister of Sehanine are untrue and is actually the sister of Chauntaea if one wants to get technical about it. Nevertheless, she was born from the moonlight and dark. A beautiful and ethereal thing, Lathander immediately sought to make her his queen upon her reaching her full power. Lolth has told countless versions of this story with her as the victim but in truth, she simply grew to despise her subordinate place to Lathander. Lolth consorted with dark things and even seduced Gruumsh, the adultery being the source of the orignal duel between the two Elder Gods. In the end, it was Asmodeus whom became her most consistent lover as the greatest of all Fallen Angels showed her many things that made her believe she might eventually surpass her husband and parents to become Queen of all Creation. It was on one of those many lover's trysts that she was introduced to the power of Ghaundaur and driven utterly insane by the experience. Lolth used her power as a goddess to weaken the bonds on Ghandaur's prison and unleashed the Second Chaos War upon the universe. Lolth ruled as Queen of Chaos amongst the countless Tanar'ri hosts that poured through creation and Miska the Wolf Spider was her champion. Dozens of worlds and countless species were destroyed or corrupted by Chaos' power being unleashed with the universe's face being changed forever. Her own children, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee stood against her. In the end, Lolth was humiliated by Miska the Wolf Spider being imprisoned in Carceri by the Djinn Wind Dukes operating in concert with mortal wizards. Soon afterwards, Lolth found her armies disintegrating since she no longer had a sufficiently powerful slave to keep her forces in line. Lolth was captured by her own daughter at the behest of Vhaeraun and brought before her peers for trial. The gods found her guilty and Lathander, wielding the power of Ao, stripped her of her inborn goddesshood and cast her down into the Abyss as a true Demon. Lolth eventually recovered her status as a god by murdering a young Elvish goddess of Peace that sought to reconcile her back with the Seldarine. Since then, she has been a bane on the Elves and enslaved an entire subrace of them (the simple fact is that the Drow were the ones she persuaded to serve her---not that their race was any more linked to her than any other). Recent years have been awful for Lolth as her control over the Drow has been fractured repeatedly by her own games, the defeat of Menzoberrazan, and the fact that she spent most of her power trying to destroy all of her foes but only ended up losing most of it thanks to Mask's cunning. Lolth has fortified herself in the Demonweb Pits and is simply hoping that none of her enemies will make it past her defenses to finish her off. It is a parable like story that she cannot help herself though and lured Shevaresh to his destruction even when that would only make him a more deadly enemy. The ascension of Asmodeus and gaining power of Ghaundaur might be a boon to the Queen of Spiders but none of her allies particularly like her. Lolth has a current plan to seize all of the worship and power of Loviatar but isn't quite sure how to pull it off....yet. It is a sure likelihood Lolth will probably gain great power again and then waste it once more on ever greater torments to her own people. Dogma: The religion of the Queen of Chaos teaches effectively to glut oneself in pleasure, humiliate one's enemies, promote strife, betray everyone that shows any weakness, and destroy all that are not worshipers of the Spider Queen. The religion changes drastically depending on where one is standing though. While Lolth's faith teaches the subjugation of men, Lolth hates other women every bit as much as she loathes men and pits them against one another in hopes of watching them annihilate themselves. Furthermore, she welcomes male priests into her ranks whenever they strike her fancy but usually destroys them in the same way as her priests before long. Lolth is a goddess that has no friends, hates everything, and has nothing in her heart but a blackened void of evil.
Charles Phipps 03-22-08, 04:16 AM	Unther-616 In the period of the Spell Plague, The Cult of the Dragon proceeded to convert the remnants of Gilgeam's cult to the worship of Tiamat. Offering Gilgeam's former Chosen up as a sacrifice, they proceeded to create a vast gateway to the world of Krynn. From there proceeded to come forth a host of Draconians, Dragons, Knights of Takhasis, Minotaurs, and Ogre mercenaries that were still loyal to the aspect that had fallen on that planet. Unther swiftly fell before the power of the Cult of the Dragon's might as the Priests of Set proceeded to seize power in Mulhorand and catch Anhur's armies between a rock and a hard place. While the noble warriors of Mulhorand were strong and courageous, the fact that Horus-Re's church had forbidden an updating of their weapons was enough to prevent any real chance against the forces of Dragonkind. The Cult of the Dragon proceeded to conduct a mass slaughter of the Mulhorandi populous' worship and allow only the veneration of the Faerun pantheon in limited amounts. Bizarrely, the Unther people did not particularly seem to mind this new set of conquests and accepted their new overseers. The past century has largely been alright by the Untherese. The Cult of the Dragon is a brutal and harsh taskmaster but its laizze faire way of ruling so long as they recieve their tribute is actually considered beneficent. It is a testament to the ridiculous brutality of Gilgeam and the harshness of the war with Mulhorand that tyrants like the Sammasterites are considered a light hand. Unther has been reasonably prosperous as well with the nation continously at war with the various city-states of Chessenta. Unther has no real chance in a war with Mulhorand and the nations eventual merging with Thay only means that they must conquer a substantial portion of their Western neighbors if they hope to have any chance of preventing their own conquest. Probably a third of Chessenta has fallen under the sway of Unther rule but an alliance of City States continues to thwart the Untherese Empire. Government: Unther is ruled by the Dragon High Lords that roughly rule a City and its surrounding territories each. Some of the Dragon High Lords rule small countries unto themselves but none of these have any real hope of controlling the whole of Unther. Instead, the real power in the region rests with Voice of Tiamat whom is Tchazzar's reincarnation and Tiamat's proxy. He effectively can command the whole of the Dragon High Lords by dictating the movement of all the Dragons in the nation and the Draconians that worship him as a demigod. Almost as influential is the Blackguard Aristhan whom is the leader of the Knights of Tiamat, an order of Anti-Paladins that wields authority almost equal to the Church. In general, the Dragon Highlords are too busy with their wars and preparing for wars to bother abusing the populous of their own lands. The law, however, is a strict 'Eye for Eye' brutality that is a marked improvement over Gilgeam's arbitrary law. The Cult of the Dragon wields a disproportionate power in Unther and can choose to elevate Dragon Highlords at will or confiscate their assets. They are not as powerful as the Church of Tiamat or government itself but basically dictate terms. Economy: Unther mostly trades with Mulhorand for the majority of its goods. Unther has gradually started moving out of the Bronze Age thanks to the presence of Black Network traders willing to work with the locals. The subjugated Chessentans have managed to avoid becoming chattel by having many skilled artisans well above the Old Empire's existing ones and being moved to update the capital. Both Sembia and the Zhentarim sell large amounts of 'modern' objects, particularly weapons, in exchange for raw materials or resources. The Cult of the Dragon dictates heavilly slanted terms to their rivals but the new market has proven profitable for both. Newly discovered Portals to Amn and Calisham have recently threatened their monopoly, however. Races: A largely human populous with a substantial number of Ogres and Half-Ogres thanks to the presence of Krynn's immigrants. It is also the place where the largest number of Dragonborn exist in Abeir-Toril. The Dragonborn are primarily created by infusing existing humans with a fell ritual that bonds them to Tiamat permanently. Intermarriage with each other and Draconians from Krynn has resulted in them becoming their own race and the born Dragonborn now outnumber the transformed. Religion: The Cult of the Dragon has benefitted tremendously from the past century as the worship of Tiamat is now state-enforced in the land of Unther. The worship of Dracoliches is grudgingly tolerated but more common are the Sammaster worshipers veneration of living Wyrms that often set themselves up as petty local deities 'in Tiamat's name.' The worship of the Mulhorandi gods is practically non-existent with only the Priests of Set allowed to worship thanks to the neighboring theocracy that is one of Unther's chief trading partners. The Faerun pantheon is tolerated so long as they do not evangelize and the only religion outright banned is the worship of Bahamut that has formed a dogged resistance against Unther's overlords.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-23-08, 09:33 PM	As always, Charles, I like seeing how you do things in your campaign (Irenicus, as a member of the Twisted Rune? Interesting...).
Charles Phipps 03-23-08, 09:43 PM	Irenicus was established as one of the most powerful wizards in the Realms in the Baldur's Gate games. I figured you needed to have SOME group notice his presence or some past history there to justify it. The Twisted Rune just seemed a natural fit given his arrogance, nobility, and pretense to godhood.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-23-08, 09:56 PM	Irenicus was established as one of the most powerful wizards in the Realms in the Baldur's Gate games. I figured you needed to have SOME group notice his presence or some past history there to justify it. The Twisted Rune just seemed a natural fit given his arrogance, nobility, and pretense to godhood. True. Irenicus died in the game, but I like what you did with him for your Realms.
Valgard 03-25-08, 04:16 AM	Lolth (The Queen of Chaos, The Spider Queen, Queen of the Demonweb Pits, The Demon Queen of the 66th Layer) Lesser Goddess of the Abyss Portfolio: Betrayal, Drow, Chaos, Jealousy, Misandry, Spiders, Spite, The Underdark Alignment: Chaotic Evil Aliases: Lilith, Lilitu, Lloth, Lamia Allies: Abbathor, Asmodeus, Gruumsh, Loviatar, Malar, Shar, Talos Enemies: Eilistraee, Lathander, Mask, The Seldarine, Shevarash Domains: Chaos, Evil, Destruction, Retribution Worshiper's Alignment: CN, NE, CE Favored Weapon: Whip Some points on this one: First, did you forget the Spider domain, or aren't you using it in your games? Second, is this title of Queen of Chaos tied to the Obyrith Queen of Chaos from Fiendish Codex I? Third, is her alias of Lilith somehow related to her relation with Asmodeus and has any relation with the second consort to Baalzebul (if you have the same Baator as the canon Forgotten Realms/Great Wheel)?
Charles Phipps 03-25-08, 04:24 AM	1. Just wasn't using it. She'd have it normally. 2. The Queen of Chaos is explicitly tied to the Rod of Seven Parts storyline. Certainly, she fits thematically both roles as well. 3. Yes, actually it was indeed a reference to both. Suffice to say, Lolth fills the role as the "Enemy of all Women" role that Lilith fulfills in Jewish folklore. Not however, the post-feminist one. I also removed the questionable role of having her subordinate to Lathander, which doesn't fit my Realms as he is a god who doesn't enforce dominance and would only muddy up Lolth's evil. Note of course, the Babylonian Lilitu has no relationship to Lolth whatsoever.
Valgard 03-25-08, 05:50 AM	Just more points.Unther-616Your way to make dragonborn go in into your Realms, and not trying to make offense, is not quite as different as in the canon 4E Realms, they come from another world, althought your method is quite more elaborate. I don't dislike it. As for these common ogres and half-ogres, if they come from Krynn, are they Krynn ogres (from the twisted Irda) or normal Faerūnian ogres?
Charles Phipps 03-25-08, 02:03 PM	Just more points.Your way to make dragonborn go in into your Realms, and not trying to make offense, is not quite as different as in the canon 4E Realms, they come from another world, althought your method is quite more elaborate. I don't dislike it. As for these common ogres and half-ogres, if they come from Krynn, are they Krynn ogres (from the twisted Irda) or normal Faerūnian ogres? Take note, that I am implementing the changes that Richard Baker has been doing for 4E for the most part. I'm just making them more palatable for my campaign. And I would assume they're Krynnish ogres.
Ulicus 04-01-08, 08:37 AM	Charles, I rarely post here (preferring to lurk), but I just found this thread and... it's awesome. Faerun-616 is a great spin on Faerun-Prime and I've very much enjoyed reading through your take. Kudos on a Realms well forged. :)
Charles Phipps 04-01-08, 08:59 AM	thank you. Ultimately, its difficult to say where my Faerun and the canon one diverge on philosophy but I ultimately try to make mine very strongly consistent with the theme it does embody. Which I call "Ultimate Realms" basically, a slightly more down to Earth and grittier one.
Vonril 04-20-08, 05:52 PM	Charles-- I absolutely love your alternate write-ups on some of the gods and such. I have a couple I am interested in seeing your take on: Chronepsis (dispassionate draconic god of fate) Dagon (obyrith demon lord) Bel (Lord of the First in the Nine Hells) -Jer
MarkusTay63 04-26-08, 11:36 AM	I haven't really been following this thread - normally, aside from an occassional single post, I have very little interest in other people's Realms. We've had a few good threads about people's personal changes to FR, but I thought and an entire thread dedicated to a single person's world was a little self-serving. Anyhow, I think maybe I prematurely judged your intent here. :( A few questions, if you don't mind... Is this correct, or did you mean for the highlighted word to be 'Untherite'? :confused: Unther-616 The Cult of the Dragon proceeded to conduct a mass slaughter of the Mulhorandi populous' worship and allow only the veneration of the Faerun pantheon in limited amounts. Bizarrely, the Unther people did not particularly seem to mind this new set of conquests and accepted their new overseers.If it's supposed to be 'Mulhorandi', then you lost me here. At one point, you have the Krynn/Untherites easily wiping out their Mulhorand adversaries, and then later you say they wouldn't stand a chance against them... which is it? A couple of other things - Did you ever read any of the 'excerpts' from my Tablets of Fate proto-myths? In them, Araunshee's original name was Lilith, and she was the Daughter of The Queen of Air and Darkness. Just thought that was an interesting coincidence. I also recently pegged her as a lover of Asmodeus in some other thread... I like your take on the Twisted Rune - I have a similar 'Super-Organization' in place in my FR, that runs everything behind the scenes, but Elminster (and Khelben) are both members. Each member has their own organization (Red Wizards, Harpers, Zhentarrim, Kraken Society, Rundeen, Moonstars, etc...), through wich they manipulate Toril's direction (part of their over-arching goals is to keep tech low, because it can unbalance the 'division of power', like 'peasants with guns'). I don't think I ever came up with a name for the group, but I do have a 'final story' written in my head, wherein all of them join together to stop an invasion of Abeir-Toril... and fail. Sort of a 'campaign ender', if I ever needed one. The scene where Szass Tam and the Simbul are fighting back-to-back (and eventually obliterated) is especially poignant. :D I think I'll start reading this thread from the beginning... there may be a lot here worth stealing. ;)
Charles Phipps 04-26-08, 02:55 PM	Thanks Markus, I appreciate your feedback. This is mostly about sharing ideas and thoughts, not tooting my own horn. 1. Actually, it's that the Mulhorandi pantheon had managed to convert the Untherite people to its worship. Well, Tiamat successfully converted them to her worship. 2. As for the "they wouldn't stand a chance." Their takeover of Unther was a surprise attack while Mulhorand has since become a super-Set worshiping one. 3. It seems a case of parallel development. But that's intriguing, do you have a link? 4. Nice. I think every campaign needs an Illuminati. Tell me if you find anything else worth stealing.
Khaelieth 04-26-08, 04:28 PM	Charles (we have the same first name btw), i really like a lot of your stuff, and like you, i also favour a grittier, harsher world. Keep it up, good inspirational stuff!
Charles Phipps 04-26-08, 06:28 PM	By request, here's Bel the Pit Fiend. He's actually one of my favorite Devils in my game because I use him to fulfill a fairly vital function in my game and that's serving as "The guy who performs all those Call of Cthulhu-esque/Apocalyptical plans." Bel (Archduke of Avernus, The Lord of War, The Ninth Lord of the Dark Eight, The General of the Armies of Hell, The Pretender [derogatory]) Archdevil of the First Layer of Hell Portfolio: See Asmodeus Aliases: None Alignment: Lawful Evil Superior: Asmodeus Allies: Bane, The Dark Eight, Garagos, Glaysia, Hextor, Malkizid, Set, Tiamat Rivals: Dispater, Belial, Mammon, Levistus, Baalzebul, Mephistopheles Enemies: The Archangels of Mount Celestia, Bahamut, Demogorgon, Gra'azt, Lolth, Orcus, Torm Symbol: Two jagged swords set side by side. Domains: None (Asmodeus grants Bel's followers Law, Evil, Destruction, and War) Worshiper's Alignment: LE, NE Bel (Bell) is an Archdevil that most assumed would be discarded with Asmodeus ending the farce of the Blood War. No sooner had the Nine Hells relocated and the dust settled that he was assailed by nearly every outcast Duke and the forces of all of his enemies from the past. Shockingly, Bel's own troops continued to fight for him and he managed to survive the attempt on his power. Now, no one knows what he's up to without the war that had defined his existence for so very long. Bel is a particularly impressive example of a Pit Fiend, standing twice as large as his already gigantic kin. For those mortals interested in such things, he appears to be a "Paragon" example of Pit Fiend and is seemingly perfect in every way to those who are twisted enough to appreciate Baatorian beauty. Recently, he's started experimenting with other forms like terrifying monsters or beautiful humans in military uniforms. Almost always constant is the fact his attire is in some way decorated with Angel skulls. History and Relationships: Bel was a particularly ambitious and brilliant tactician in the final millenium of the Blood War. Ultimately, it was on Asmodeus' whim that he was raised from his position as a member of the Dark Eight to direct leader of them. From there, he proceeded to overthrow the Fallen Angel Zariel that had been Archduchess of the region. Bel's reasons were ultimately sound, she was doing an inefficient job of waging the war. Asmodeus had never really had a subordinate as trustworthy as Bel before with none of the various revolts and plots against the Lord of the Nine ever receiving his support. Bel's total focus on the Blood War was one that could never be deterred and that required a clear chain of command. It lead to countless plots against his position but Bel's skill at rooting out dissent was particularly keen and he managed to whether all of the countless attempts to overthrow him. The sudden END of the Blood War, however, has managed to finally shake away that loyalty. Asmodeus' ascension to a Greater God doesn't particularly impress Bel as he's dealt with said beings (particularly Bane and Tiamat) on a fairly regular basis. Indeed, it appalls him that the War on Chaos is being treated as nothing more than dinner theater for such a "ridiculously silly little plan" (his own words). Bel can't exactly continue the Blood War on his own, especially given that the other Lords of the Nine have no reason to even maintain the pretense of aiding him on it. This has not deterred his belief that the Blood War or its goals should not be pursued with the utmost diligence, however. Bel has simply decided that it must be fought with new methodry and pursuit rather than the brute force tactics of olden times. His current methodology is to actively pursue lasting alliances with gods who hold Law to equality with Evil, use military conquest and 'conversion by the sword' to fill the Nine Hells with new souls, and pursue Prime Material resources like artifacts or magics to break the stalemate that prevents him from beginning the Blood War anew. His approach is considerably more blunt with cultists expected to open vast gates and release hordes of demons to enslave, breed, and slaughter everything on a planet rather than the usual subtle corruption. This later method is available to Bel only on worlds where the gods are to weak to oppose the Archduke's divine allies actively or have wiped themselves out in internal divine wars but those places are disturbingly common in the Post-Spell Plague Multiverse. It is Bel who has negotiated the en mass defection of succubi (and the slaughter of most dissenters) from the Abyss along with their transformation to beings of evil. Likewise, he's made permanent pacts with various powerful Lawful Evil deities that bind him almost as much to their service as to Asmodeus. Likewise, he's begun actively pursuing the conquest of human worlds and their transformation of worship from regular deities to Devilkind. Shockingly, these risks have paid off and Bel has become equal in power to most of the other Lords with the resources at his command being able to now conquer any individual world that he sets his mind on. Bel's efforts to turn the Prime Material into his own supply base for taking over the Hells then wiping out the Abyss have not gone unnoticed. Instead his troops become the chief enemy of Angelic intervention in the Multiverse. His troopers are eager to engage in direct battle with the forces of the Host and no longer is either side held back by the "better to focus on the Tanar'ri than these guys" orders that characterized the Blood War. He's not ready to commit himself to full scale war against the Heavens but the violent encounters between the two groups have increased several thousand percent since the end of the Blood War. The other Archdukes are fairly sure that Bel will eventually burn himself out and allow one of the Dukes in exile or one of their pawns to take him out but Asmodeus is quite pleased with Bel's current efforts. The Lord of the Nine Hells was quite deliberate in his 'snubbing' of the Pit Fiend and believed that it would spur him on to become a greater threat to the Multiverse than any previous Lord of Avernus. So far, the Serpent has been proven right. Dogma: Bel's religion is barely that. It's much closer to signing up for an army. You are expected to obey the chain of command set out for you and if you disobey orders then you had best either be able to convince your superior it was for the best (overwhelming success is about the only thing possible) or are powerful enough to replace him violently with no interruption to the campaign as a whole (otherwise Bel will show up and kill you or send a minion to o so). You are expected to wage unrelenting war against the forces of the Good aligned Planes and the ones aligned with Chaos while working to convert more Neutral aligned ones. What you do with the booty recovered and in your own spare time is no concern of Bels though the majority of it is expected to go straight back into the war chest. The Armies of Bel will eventually conquer the whole of the Multiverse and how high you are in this force is determined by how much you contribute.
Vonril 04-26-08, 07:12 PM	Frigging awesome write-up. I've always been a big fan of Bel since his inception. In my Faerun (I've yet to recognize 4E edition storyline yet...not sure how I'm going to deal with it), Bel's canonically almost nonexistant cult has grown a considerable following from defectors from Bane's church as a growing protest in the the Church of Bane's alliance/association with the Zhentarim and their 'other' motives rather than the pure concepts of war, law and domination. Clerics and warriors dedicated to the arts of war and conquering for its own sake; the 'strong ruling the weak to save them from themselves' sort of idea. Inasmuch there's quite a bit of a schism going on in this little civil war. My Bel's followers tend to believe more that their lot in life is to rule over people to save them from the misery of the chaotic state they find themselves in without strong central leadership...something I believe Asmodeus (still just the top archdevil in my game) is most pleased with. One of my current players is in fact, in a mostly neutral group, playing a LE cleric of this newly growing cult of Bel (using the domains granted from Tyrants of the Nine Hells). He gets along with the other players because his character's philosophy tends to lean toward the concept that by conquering the troubles that plague a certain area, he sets an example from his church that the average person/villager is better off being taken care of by a stronger, more tactically-minded entity. He, of course, does not view himself or his patron as evil, and the concept that people should be controlled and protected BY said more tactically-minded entity by any means necessary for their own good whether they want it or not is simply what must be done. For the greater good, of course. :D I'm not actually sure who I want to ask you about next...Dagon, whom I'm building quite a big adventure around, or Chronepsis, who I just like. Your discretion, good sir, when you have the time. :)
Charles Phipps 04-26-08, 08:00 PM	Chronepsis (The Balancer, The Watcher, The Silent, The Book and the Fate, The Two Headed Dragon, The Prismatic King) Greater God of Concordant Opposition Aliases: Alaundo (assumed), Astinus, Gilean, Crinos, Nepsis, Savas (assumed) Portfolio: Accumulation of Knowledge, Draconic Death, Draconic Fate, Draconic Psionics, Gem Dragons, Logic, Neutrality Alignment: Neutral Superior: Io (Ao) Allies: Azuth, Deneir, Gond, Kelemvor, The Neutral Gods of Krynn, Oghma Enemies: None Symbol: Hourglass Domains: Death, Dragon, Fate, Knowledge, Planning, Time Worshiper's Alignments: All Favored Weapon: Flail Chronepsis (Cro-Nep-Sis) is the brother of Bahamut and Tiamat and one of the three children of Io created during the early days of the universe. While often taking a lesser place amongst these two deities in Draconic religion, Chronepsis is held in other realms as the equal of these two and is easilly amongst the most important gods in the pantheon. In his draconic form, Chronepsis tends to appear as a two headed Dragon with its body joined at the base, both of its necks locked together in a peculiar chain. Other times, he takes the form of a gigantic paragon Prismatic Dragon that is composed of countless rainbow colored gems that blind anyone who looks directly upon him. When dealing with non-Dragons, he tends to assume the form of an unassuming scholar of either male or female persuasion. Recently, Chronepsis has started assuming the form of Alaundo the Seer and is making a play for Savras' lost worshipers. History and Relationships: One of the elder deities in the cosmos, Chronepsis has always assumed the position of balancer between the two major powers of the Draconic Pantheon. A conservative god, Chronepsis has always held Knowledge up to be the ultimate pursuit of any species with Survival taking a secondary concern. Good and Evil along with Law and Chaos are merely secondary concerns with neither really mattering save in the abstract sense as it relates to the two prevailing opinions. Chronepsis is the creator of the Gem Dragon races and their chief deity. Their lack of fame by comparison to the Chromatic Dragons and Metallic brethren is primarilly due to the fact that he encourages them to avoid involving themselves in the affairs of others. This would make for a rather boring existence were not for the fact that Chronepsis' followers are not nearly so much inactive as they are secretly the self-declared judges and defenders of the Draconic race's supremacy. The idea of "militant neutrals" is something that many find to be rather bizarre but Chronepsis holds the position that he is the swing vote between the two extremes of his siblings. Either Bahamut or Tiamat would have likely won the ancient conflict between them if not for the fact that the Balancer has often thrown his support behind the losing side just in time to prevent the other from achieving victory. This kind of aggressive meddling is based upon his belief that neither Good nor Evil is particularly conductive to survival but a combination of both strengthens the Draconic race. Chronepsis' clergy, both Draconic and Human, tend to claim a position of detached historians or advisers rather than active interferes. This is largely just their defense against active persecution by either side. Both clergy and their god use portents of fate and careful study of developing situations around them to influence events to what they percieve as the most favorable outcome. Chronepsis has even allowed his clergy to compete with one another or side with good or evil directly because it suits his own aggressive long term visions. The reputation that Dragons have as secret masters and chess-masters of the human world is largely the result of his influence on their world. It is relatively recently that Chronepsis has turned his attention to altering the mortal worlds as much as Dragon kind but he's wasting little time in doing so. Prophecies are routinely created meant to influence society less by their accuracy than their effect on said society while books are poured over for clues as to how ancient realms might be resurrected to something more controllable. It is a testament to how effective the clergy of Chronepsis is that the majority of them are believed to be nothing more than neutral book worms than the driving force that they are. Many Dragons or humans who have discovered the Dark Side of Chronepsis' faith have often set themselves out above them to deal with a people that holds themselves up as the causal arbitrators of fate but overthrowing enemies who spend so much time gazing into the future is a rather daunting prospect. No deities are unaware that Chronepsis is more than a mere astute scholar but most simply take his belief that whatever side benefits the Draconic race the most and his worshipers is simply as valid an opinion as any amongst the gods. His only consistent allies amongst deities remain those who maintain a similar pragmatic view. It would be wrong to call the Fate and the Book 'treacherous' but it would be perhaps accurate to say that it is rather arrogant of the deity to believe that only he has the foresight and knowledge to dictate the future of his race. Dogma: Knowledge is power. Followers of Chronepsis are to accumulate knowledge about every conceivable subject and horde it for their own use (and the use of their fellows) to keep it out of the hands of those who would misuse it. Likewise, those who misuse it are those who rely on intangibles over practicality. Idealism takes a back seat to results and blind emotion should be replaced with pure logic whenever possible. Those who engage in excessive cruelty or arrogance are equally stupid as the idealistic despite their defense of 'the end justifying the means.' One should always be aware when and where it doesn't. The Dead and Divination are both areas that Chronopsis followers should frequently consult before making any major decision. The departed are frequently sources of vast amounts of information while Divination, while not 100% accurate, can give clues to probable results.
Charles Phipps 04-26-08, 08:04 PM	Frigging awesome write-up. I've always been a big fan of Bel since his inception. In my Faerun (I've yet to recognize 4E edition storyline yet...not sure how I'm going to deal with it), Bel's canonically almost nonexistant cult has grown a considerable following from defectors from Bane's church as a growing protest in the the Church of Bane's alliance/association with the Zhentarim and their 'other' motives rather than the pure concepts of war, law and domination. Yes, my version of Bane is something more closer to Hextor and not nearly so bad at establishing their goals of World Domination through Power. Of course, the Zhentariam are a lot more effective in 616 than they are in canon. But yes, Bel's religion is perfect for those who love La Guerra vs. war in general. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9f/Cc_screen_kane.jpg/250px-Cc_screen_kane.jpg PEACE THROUGH POWER!
Charles Phipps 04-26-08, 08:13 PM	Charles (we have the same first name btw), i really like a lot of your stuff, and like you, i also favour a grittier, harsher world. Keep it up, good inspirational stuff! Thanks, oddly, the world of 616-Faerun isn't so much gritty as it is less romantic. The Spell Plague was imposed on the world by Richard Baker and company and it was a serious win for the forces of evil. However, while the Forces of Good have taken a nasty blow, the actual victory for Evil isn't anywhere near close to being won. Torm is in ascendence and Bahamut while Tyr will eventually kick his way out of Hell and start his own smackdown on the bad guys. Really, I just tend to go with the idea that the bad guys are extremely competent and the same for the good guys. People willing follow Fzoul Chembryl because he's a military genius and a good leader. Likewise, Manshoon is just THAT good at gaining power. It's a stalemate between Good vs. Evil and the Good lost some ground they had been gaining post the TOT but just because the Harpers and Knights have to shed *A LOT* of blood every year to preserve that stalemate doesn't mean good is losing. It's really up to the player characters to change the face of the conflict of Good vs. Evil forever.
Vonril 04-26-08, 09:41 PM	I really like your concept of increasing Chronepsis' role as a sort of almost primal force of neutrality in Realms (and as a side note, I like the fact you portray him as a pseudo-Alaundo so even 4editioners can incorporate elements of the Baldur's Gate prophecies into their games. :D), and a very subtle but very powerful mover and shaker. Chronepsis has always been fascinating to me because he kind of holds the same detached mentality as Jergal without having any strings attached (death), but rather simply being an impartial viewer to existence, and is sort of the ultimate representation of neutrality without having to necessarily be associated with druids or nature, which is what DnD has often tied to the true neutral alignment. I guess the best association I have for Chronepsis is the Watcher in the Marvel Universe, who simply observes things happen (fate, if you will) without taking a hand in it. Chronepsis, if you will, is the ultimate 'your fate is in your own hands, i'll simply keep a record of it' kind of god. On the other hand, I like the way you represent him as the balance between Tiamat and Bahamut and is sort of a subtle undercurrent in the plots of the world to make sure no side has too much of the other hand. I have even asked myself the role of the Chronepsis clergyman in the world of Toril, and to what extent he would actually go to keep his dispassionate nature and what might drive him or her to actually go off questing on some adventure. I actually wrote a several-chapter story based off this idea of the role of the church of Chronepsis in Faerun that I called 'The Brothers Uncaring'. The concept, in a nutshell, is that a young cleric of Chronepsis, whose parents died, was taken in and raised by a Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis and indoctrinated into the faith for the sole purpose of the dragon having a more active agent keeping tabs on the fate of the world. By a strange twist of fate, the cleric, living quietly in a small village and certainly keeping to himself and recording what he sees, finds his home becoming a refuge for a young exiled drow cultist (cleric) of Ghaundaur escaping to the surface on the run from a drow hunting party. The drow, while roughly neutral evil, holds a view of Ghaundaur's faith that we are all doomed to die and be consumed by the everlasting hunger of his dark god, so we should just accept it and live our lives. The drow finds the human's utter uncaring nature fascinating. Because of the two's very detached and pragmatic outlooks from their religions, they find common ground and become close friends who can laugh at the world's misery together, though. They see fate as a game, and so they decide to make it one (the drow's idea)The drow, in particular, is obsessed with finding out how far the human's faith is willing to take without getting involved in something. The game is such where the drow initiates or joins one side of a conflict, and the Chronepsis cleric must take the other. Then the drow intentionally manipulates and escalates the conflict, intentionally making things personal as tensions increase, trying to break the human cleric into taking some sort of action on the other side. So yeah. :) Anyway, great writeup on Chronepsis. I may have to increase the role of The Watcher in my game after reading your take. And finally, when you have time, Dagon!
Charles Phipps 04-26-08, 09:56 PM	I confess, my version of Chronespsis is somewhat influenced not only by Dragonlance's Gilean (which I just frankly made an aspect of him to complete the "Krynn's pantheon is the Dragon pantheon" that's always been on the periphery) but also incorporated some of White Wolf's Sidreal Exalted. I.e. If we can't see your future perfectly then dammit if we won't bring it about. I also always felt Neutrality had gotten the shaft and needed a Poster-God. Pure Practicality seemed as good as any. Nietzsche would probably enjoy a healthy respect amongst the Chronepsis since they're Beyond Good and Evil. In the end, I could have done him up as a pure "Record and Observe" type but felt that I had to give him something to do that would make adventurers want to play as a cleric of him.
Charles Phipps 04-27-08, 05:56 AM	Dagon (Father Dagon, The Prince of the Depths, The Demon Fish God, The Lurking Horror) Demon Prince of the 89th Layer of the Abyss Portfolio: See Umberlee Aliases: Mother Hydra Alignment: Chaotic Evil Superior: Ghaundaur Allies: Umberlee, Talos Enemies: Deep Sashellas, Sekolah, Selune, Valkur Symbol: An Eight Fingered Hand. Domains: None (Domains granted by Ghaundaur and Umberlee are Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Ocean, Storm, Water) Favored Weapon: Trident Worshiper's Alignment: CN, LE, NE, CE Dagon (Day-Gone) is one of the oldest of beings in creation. A horrible and twisted thing that many unlucky mortals mistake for a benevolent deity before they find that their worship is to a horror utterly unfathomable (pun intended) to mortal minds. Dagon's natural form is something that really defies description and can only be really described in vague terms. Suffice to say it is such a nightmarish and disturbing thing that most mortals are stricken mad by it or actually go blind because it blacks out their eyes with its horror. Mortals hoping to slay Dagon would be horrified to discover that his two aspects in the 89th layer, Mother Hydra and the 'real' Dagon, are merely parts of a being that covers most of the layer underneath the waves. Dagon's aspects are somewhat easier to view as priests usually summon him in the form of a giant Kraken or giant paragon Sahuagin. Dagon has provided his clerics with rituals that create for him vessels that he gleefully tears into human beings with on behalf of his worshipers. History and Relationships: Dagon as an obyrith is one of the original children of Ghaundaur. He is a being that was created when the primordial chaos of the universe was brought to order by Ao. Dagon is not especially powerful amongst the many Lords of the Abyss but the reason for this is so horrifying that it would immediately result in a massive collaboration amongst his fellow fiends where they discover what he's been doing. Dagon mostly ignored the Blood War and disdains the politics of his fellow Lords of the Abyss. Occasionally, the deity sends representatives to deal with them but these are usually shapechanged Fiendish paragon Kraken or an enslaved Half-Obyrith Balor known as "The Star Spawn" impersonating him. Instead, Dagon's attention is almost totally focused on the Elemental Plane of Water and the Prime Material. Dagon seems to desire worship of him above all other things and most Demon Princes tend to disdain the 'False God' for his vanity. Dagon's priests are encouraged to win new recruits to his faith at nearly any cost and are given elaborate powers to bring about conversion amongst seagoers. Spells granted by Dagon tend to be tremendously useful ones rather than dangerous ones with quite a few devoted to corruption or providing easy wealth. Dagon's faith, being fiendish, always ends up degenerating and debasing the worshipers. Cannibalism, human sacrifice, and miscegenation with his Tiefling Sahuagin usually result in their burning themselves out but this only fuels Dagon's need for new souls. Dagon has become popular enough that he is actually considered a legitimate deity of the Sahuagin, Scrags, and Merrow while he is the Ixitxachitl's chief deity (replacing Demogorgon in canon). Dagon is the most hated 'deity' of the Sea Elves and his followers are considered with roughly the same revulsion that Surface elves treat Lolth. Because of Dagon's disgusting horror and evil, Sea Elves actually abandon their usual merciful natures to massacre children found in camps following that religion. This has resulted in otherwise stalwart allies becoming severely doubtful of their usual allegiances with the otherwise Chaotic Good race. Deep Sashellas wishes to destroy the Demon Prince dearly but believes any move against him would result in his death thanks to oracles on the subject. Bizarrely, after Deep Sashellas, the most venomous figure towards Dagon is Sekollah the God of the Sahuagin who feels his race has been perverted by the monstrous Fish Demon. With the end of the Blood War, Sekollah has lost most of his Devil support for hunting Dagon's followers and is looking for anyone whose willing to help in annihilating them. Sekollah's servants are rewarded almost as lavishly for killing Dagonist 'heretics' as they are for killing Sea Elves. In a few centuries or millenia, Sekollah might consider a brief "kill less of you while we both kill more of him then immediately turn upon you" alliance with his most hated foe in Sashellas just to finish Dagon off. This is because he fears the Sahuagin might eventually turn to the god en masse and he could go the way of the Gnoll god Gorellik. Dagon remains alive despite this enimity thanks to the fact that Umberlee and Talos support his clergy on many worlds as the Demon Prince insists on thanks being given to aspects of both as part of his faithful. Thus, the Church of Dagon's spread has actually broadened the Gods of Fury's worship underwater while weakening other gods. What neither God of Fury knows is that Dagon *does* recieve a benefit from all the worship he collects. Using ancient obyrith magics, he's managed to store the power from such devotion in the same manner that a god might even if he has no instinctive ability to use it. Dagon is storing this energy over the countless millenia he's existed for the eventual purpose of shattering Ghaundaur's prison and the bonds of other ancient Obyrith that exist in the Demiplane of Imprisonment. Shockingly, he has the power to probably do one or the other at this point and that bodes Apocalyptical ends either way, Dagon simply wants to make sure that there will be no mistakes and is thus holding off for the time being. Dogma: Dagon's worship is a starkly materialist one. You will be provided with ample fish, gold, and good weather in exchange for offers of prayer and human sacrifice in accordance with the boons you wish. Those who wish to become priests of Dagon must also willingly take a bride from one of his fiendish children. Dagon provides his priests with ample magical knowledge and the secrets of shipwrecks as part of their training. At 12th Level, Dagon will usually grant a priest whom has offered at least a hundred lives to him and an equal amount of converts the boon of a ceasation to his or her aging. This is a drain on Dagon's power but it has proven an overall success in recruitment amongst those priests who fear to trust in a god's mercy post death.
Khaelieth 04-27-08, 06:57 PM	i've taken aspects from Ravenloft, such as madness, horror and all that. Heroes of Horror was very good for my games! i've made Erlkazar tied to the Demiplane of Dread in several places. Got a Barovia area, Baskerville, abandoned village and all! Plus, some Predator-style stalking's good!
Charles Phipps 05-05-08, 04:11 AM	Will be updating soon.
Mister_Mxyztplk 07-06-08, 12:07 AM	Have you gradually created your setting over time or have you known since its beginning how you would play the various deities and other powers? Whats your take on the Elder Evils book? Are there any atropals and other abominations in your campaign? Awesome campaign!:ayyyy!:
Charles Phipps 08-15-08, 11:46 PM	Here's the final list of the thirty Deities of the Realms that last in Faerun-616 for 4E. A lot of the changes here are fairly recent in my campaign. Others have been alluded to elsewhere. The Thirty Great Gods of the Realms 1. Bahamut: God of General Lawful Goodery. Mostly has taken over Tyr's place. 2. Lathander: A merger of Corellon and Lathander. The God of Elves and the Sun. 3. Torm: Has taken over Helm's portfolio for the most part. Now part of a new Triad with Nobanion and Bahamut. 4. Mielikki: Has absorbed Eilistraee and Lurue but is otherwise unchanged. 5. Kelemvor: He's absorbed Ilmater's portfolio and become effectively a really Dark version of Christianity's god. 6. Chauntea: Pretty much Unchanged except more Neutral. She's also Yondalla's replacement. 7. Mask: Has absorbed Vhaeraun's portfolio. 8. Bane: Has merged with Gruumsh of all people to make a much more LE Orc race. 9. Selune: Has absorbed much of Mystra's old portfolio and is now a Greater Goddess. 10. Ghaundaur: Now the Elemental God of Evil Tharizdun who wants to eat all of creation. 11. Talos: Still the God of Chaos and destruction. Good for him. He's also the god of almost all other types of evil humanoids in the Realms. 12. Moradin: Has absorbed Gond and Garl Glittergold's role. 13. Sune: Because she's Sune. 14. Cyric: The insane Loki like God is in decline but the God of Tricksters will be back soon enough. 15. Nobanion: Aslan is back and he's :censored:! 16. Set: Basically, now the sole god of Mulhorand. 17. Tiamat: Feeling Takhasis-lite. 18. Shar: Because she's evil. 19. Lolth: Ditto. 20. Azuth: Replacing all those lesser gods of knowledge and magic. Yes, including Oghma. 21. Velsharoon: The EVIL God of Knowledge and Magic. Basically, he's Vecna. 22. Silvanus: Because he's a Big Tree. You never understand where those Neutrals stand. 23. Asmodeus: Absorbing Gargauth. He's the head of all Demon prince and Archdevil cults in the Realms. 24. Tymora: She's actually re-absorbed Beshaba and is now a "Two Headed Coin" 25. Red Knight: The goddess of strategy, naval combat, and all the other goodness. She absorbs much of Valkur's old portfolio and is Torm's consort. 26. Umberlee: As unpleasant as always. 27. Tempus: More Thor, less Neutral. 28. Waukeen: Because Merchants need a Goddess too. 29. Garagos: More or less transformed into Bhaal meets Hextor's unpleasant brother at this point. 30. Orcus: MORE SOULS FOR THE SOUL DEVOURER! I welcome comments since this list will be presented to our player characters fairly soon.
MerrikCale 08-16-08, 12:34 AM	1. Bahamut: God of General Lawful Goodery. Mostly has taken over Tyr's place. I like Bahamut as a greater general deity, though not in the Realms but its a good core idea 2. Lathander: A merger of Corellon and Lathander. The God of Elves and the Sun. I like Corellon as a god. I would have prefered a merger the other way with Corellon left over 4. Mielikki: Has absorbed Eilistraee and Lurue but is otherwise unchanged. 9. Selune: Has absorbed much of Mystra's old portfolio and is now a Greater Goddess. I would have had Selune absorb Eilistraee myself. Seems to me that drow rising to the surface (or dark elves) would flock to a moon goddess. Especially one that accepts all walks of life. And why wouldn't Lurue go to Selune as well 5. Kelemvor: He's absorbed Ilmater's portfolio and become effectively a really Dark version of Christianity's god. Not a bad thought at all, but again I might have had Ilmater, the stronger god, absorb Kelemvor Where is Hoar and Shandaukal?
Charles Phipps 08-16-08, 07:56 AM	I would have had Selune absorb Eilistraee myself. Seems to me that drow rising to the surface (or dark elves) would flock to a moon goddess. Especially one that accepts all walks of life. And why wouldn't Lurue go to Selune as well In this case, it's the fact that Mielikki is a Huntress and a Goddess of Nature already. Really, there's little change that actually occurs to her. Likewise, Mielikki is also the Unicorn goddess and thus, Lurue being an aspect of her doesn't really make much difference. It was a tough call but I felt that Dark Elves worshiping Selune would be too much like Warcraft. Not a bad thought at all, but again I might have had Ilmater, the stronger god, absorb Kelemvor Actually, Ilmater is an intermediate god while Kelemvor is a Greater Deity. It mostly boiled down to the fact that the Lord of the Underworld is a stronger Archetypeal image than Issek the Jug of Lankmar. Then again, I try to forget anything about Kelemvor that isn't from Neverwinter Night's 2's Expansion pack. Where is Hoar and Shandaukal? Assuran is now an Exarch of Kelemvor and a general bringer of horrible dooms to people. Shanduakal has become less a deity and more than a traveller that appears in places and gives portents, warnings, dooms.
MerrikCale 08-16-08, 09:30 AM	In this case, it's the fact that Mielikki is a Huntress and a Goddess of Nature already. Really, there's little change that actually occurs to her. Likewise, Mielikki is also the Unicorn goddess and thus, Lurue being an aspect of her doesn't really make much difference. It was a tough call but I felt that Dark Elves worshiping Selune would be too much like Warcraft.. Never having anything to do with Warcraft other than a couple of the Jim Lee comics, I wouldn't know. Mielikki is a good choice I would gone with Selune but I wouldn't want to warcraft my realms too much either Actually, Ilmater is an intermediate god while Kelemvor is a Greater Deity. It mostly boiled down to the fact that the Lord of the Underworld is a stronger Archetypeal image than Issek the Jug of Lankmar. Then again, I try to forget anything about Kelemvor that isn't from Neverwinter Night's 2's Expansion pack.. Actually, by stronger, I meant more interesting and "stronger" to the realms story. My personal preference is Ilmater Assuran is now an Exarch of Kelemvor and a general bringer of horrible dooms to people. Shanduakal has become less a deity and more than a traveller that appears in places and gives portents, warnings, dooms. Cool. Assuran makes sense there for sure. But I had hoped that both gods (personal favorites) would fare better in the new Realms
Charles Phipps 08-16-08, 09:35 AM	Actually, by stronger, I meant more interesting and "stronger" to the realms story. My personal preference is Ilmater Well, Kelemvor has played a major role in my campaigns from the beginning. Our games started with the time of troubles and he's the patron deity of the group, so really, there wasn't much choice there. Ilmater still exists but oddly as a Saint of the Kelemvor faith.
MerrikCale 08-16-08, 09:38 AM	Well, Kelemvor has played a major role in my campaigns from the beginning. Our games started with the time of troubles and he's the patron deity of the group, so really, there wasn't much choice there. Ilmater still exists but oddly as a Saint of the Kelemvor faith. well, that makes a lot of sense for your campaign sure. Sounds cool. I still would have gone with Selune as the dark elf goddess:)
Charles Phipps 08-16-08, 09:41 AM	In the end, I just don't like it. Mostly, because it removes the importance of the Huntress element of Elistraee and also makes her TOO prominent. Selune is already the goddess of magic in the new Realms and she was also the Goddess of Wisdom and Healing in my games. Making her goddess of the Drow is just gratitutous. Plus, I like the irony that Drizzt was always worshiping Eli, just under a different name.
MerrikCale 08-16-08, 09:47 AM	well, Selune was always my favorite deity so, ya know where I'm coming from. I like the interplay she has with Shar (although thats getting beating to death) and Malar
Lord Karsus 08-19-08, 12:42 AM	-Just so you know, I'll be having this thread moved to the Running the Realms section in a day or so.
Charles Phipps 08-19-08, 04:48 AM	No problem there, that's very appropriate. Oh, FYI, if I have any fans out there: I've actually got my first RPG release! It's actually more of an RPG "Pre-Release" in the fact that the PDF for the future paperback version of the supplement is now available. Halt Evil Doer!: http://tinyurl.com/555axt It's for Mutants and Masterminds rather than D20 (though I'm working on a Pathfinder Fantasy setting right now) but I thought I'd share. You can read the Design Journals here: http://www.arborproductions.com/index.php
Lord Karsus 08-19-08, 10:59 AM	No problem there, that's very appropriate. -Okay. Just didn't want you to suddenly be surprised and outraged.
Charles Phipps 08-29-08, 11:06 PM	Well since the release of the 4E Guide to the Realms, my players and I are now debating what exactly to do with our own created world. What we will keep and what we will throw away is all very much up for debate. While I'm very fond of Universe-616 as it stands, I'm also always aware there's something to be said for players that have a common frame of reference to draw from for their reading.
Lord Karsus 08-30-08, 12:25 PM	-No reason to throw hard work and effort out the window for nothing. Printing the sum total of your work for them to read and be on the same page is quite easy.
Mister_Mxyztplk 12-21-08, 12:20 AM	Well since the release of the 4E Guide to the Realms, my players and I are now debating what exactly to do with our own created world. What we will keep and what we will throw away is all very much up for debate. While I'm very fond of Universe-616 as it stands, I'm also always aware there's something to be said for players that have a common frame of reference to draw from for their reading. What did your group decide to do?
Charles Phipps 12-21-08, 01:14 AM	What did your group decide to do? In the end, it was dissatisfaction with 4E rather than 4E Realms. The player characters requested we play Pathfinder instead with our world.
Mister_Mxyztplk 12-22-08, 05:25 AM	In the end, it was dissatisfaction with 4E rather than 4E Realms. The player characters requested we play Pathfinder instead with our world. Is pathfinder a different game or a variant set of rules? Did you keep the lore and only switch to pathfinder or is pathfinder different enough to force you to change it (Remove certain races and classes, etc.)? The groups I play with still use the 3.5 rules. This was a good thread, it should be revived.
Charles Phipps 12-22-08, 05:50 AM	Is pathfinder a different game or a variant set of rules? Did you keep the lore and only switch to pathfinder or is pathfinder different enough to force you to change it (Remove certain races and classes, etc.)? The groups I play with still use the 3.5 rules. This was a good thread, it should be revived. I kept the lore of my game and switched to Pathfinder, which is an updated 3.5 rules. And I may yet later, but now I'm actually playing Spycraft.