Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Karsus 02-24-07, 08:04 PM	-If you believe the Faerūnian myths, Chauntea is Abier-Toril. If you believe that Maztican myths, Maztica is...Maztica (as in the land itself). Now, should both myths prove true, I wonder what the relationship between the two deities are? Here are a few thoughts: Would Maztica be an aspect of Chauntea? Is Chauntea actually a "fragmented" deity, like Uthgar, Shekinester, and so on, and every continent is an aspect of this deity? -Just some food for thought...
MerrikCale 02-24-07, 08:26 PM	why do you think both myths are true?
lavekkia 02-24-07, 09:22 PM	That would fit nicely with my work on Katashaka mini atlas An aspect of Chauntea for every continent... intriguing :plotting:
Stigger 02-24-07, 09:42 PM	I'd say they were all aspects of a greater unseen deity, possibly named Abeir-Toril, along the lines of Earthmother in the Moonshaes personally. None of them dominant or better, simply put in terms that the local region can understand. If anything however, with Chauntea somewhat drifting away from her former points of view, fragmentation could be occurring perhaps.
Alac Luin 02-24-07, 09:58 PM	I have given this a degree of thought in he past. The "easy" answer would be Maztica is more of a little sister to Chauntea, as she is the land of the continent of Maztica only. This also "fits" along with the tale of Spider Woman of Azuposi Legand. Though in some ways, Spider Woman fits as a blend on Chauntea and Selune, but I'll not get into that in this post. The harder answer would be a little more involved. We know that Chauntea herself is really the deity Jannath. At some point in time, Jannath changed her name to Chauntea AND changed her focus from "everything nature" to a more "cultivateing" or "fertility" aspect, this leaving the wild nature to the likes of Salvinous (sp). I can see Maztica being an aspect of Jannath, and when this deity changed focus gave rise to the belief in Maztica being a dead deity. But this gives rise to the question, is Maztica is Jannith, who is Kukul? Could this be AO? Both Kulkul and AO are considered the first deities in each panthion. Neither deity grants spells to worshipers. Kulkul's death can be questioned, he died of grief? I can see a mortal explain a deity that seems removed from mortal affairs as dieing.
MarkusTay63 02-24-07, 10:33 PM	So, perhaps instead of a mother-godess, Chauntee is really a member of Earth-sisters, and she represents Faerun, and Faith represents Zakhara, and maztica... well you get the idea. Then they would all answer to 'their' mother, the Earth-Mother Jannath, who is all but forgotten except in a few out-of-the-way places like the Moonshaes. Maybe this godess's original name was Abeir. So, like we could call our world Gaia/Earth, they refer to theirs as Abeir/Toril, with Toril being the physical planet and the other being the deity. Just a thought.
Lord Karsus 02-24-07, 11:41 PM	why do you think both myths are true? -Nothing in particular. If you notice, though, the first word in my post was 'If'. ;)
Gallameed 02-25-07, 01:46 AM	-If you believe the Faerūnian myths, Chauntea is Abier-Toril. If you believe that Maztican myths, Maztica is...Maztica (as in the land itself). Now, should both myths prove true, I wonder what the relationship between the two deities are? Here are a few thoughts: Would Maztica be an aspect of Chauntea? Is Chauntea actually a "fragmented" deity, like Uthgar, Shekinester, and so on, and every continent is an aspect of this deity? -Just some food for thought... I think so. and don't.. Chauntea 'just is she need no fretttin boi! She jus' is and will be here long after other 'gods' are dust ' Chauntea is an UBER MOTHER of a deity. She's so rock hard she spits penance (subtly) and don't take names! Bad boi's need pay her no respect coz she wrek t3h groondz t3h dwell onz reet! ;) Even if you don' be meanin' it - every step U take on her womb (the land) iz a prayer to her being! NuFf SEdd.../.!!!!23!OMG
MerrikCale 02-25-07, 09:25 AM	-Nothing in particular. If you notice, though, the first word in my post was 'If'. ;) I only read every other word.
MarkusTay63 02-25-07, 03:48 PM	I think so. and don't.. Chauntea 'just is she need no fretttin boi! She jus' is and will be here long after other 'gods' are dust ' Chauntea is an UBER MOTHER of a deity. She's so rock hard she spits penance (subtly) and don't take names! Bad boi's need pay her no respect coz she wrek t3h groondz t3h dwell onz reet! ;) Even if you don' be meanin' it - every step U take on her womb (the land) iz a prayer to her being! NuFf SEdd.../.!!!!23!OMGArrrrghhhh... :banghead: Translation, please? :uh-huh:
Lord Karsus 02-25-07, 04:27 PM	I think so. and don't.. Chauntea 'just is she need no fretttin boi! She jus' is and will be here long after other 'gods' are dust ' Chauntea is an UBER MOTHER of a deity. She's so rock hard she spits penance (subtly) and don't take names! Bad boi's need pay her no respect coz she wrek t3h groondz t3h dwell onz reet! ;) Even if you don' be meanin' it - every step U take on her womb (the land) iz a prayer to her being! NuFf SEdd.../.!!!!23!OMG -I have two possible explanations for this behavior...Either I detect a slight bit of sarcasmin your response, or I smell a little bit of the ol' Gallaweed on you clothing...;) I only read every other word. -You would still start with the first word, if you used that method though. :P Arrrrghhhh... :banghead: Translation, please? :uh-huh: -He's speaking the Queen's English. Don't worry about it. ;)
Stigger 02-25-07, 06:45 PM	Made sense to me... and he does have a good point.
MerrikCale 02-25-07, 08:26 PM	-You would still start with the first word, if you used that method though. :P not if I read the last word in the last post I read.
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 12:31 AM	not if I read the last word in the last post I read. -Oh, stop being disagreeable...:P
MerrikCale 02-26-07, 01:10 PM	-Oh, being :P huh?
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 05:20 PM	huh? -Oh, Merrik, stop with the...the disagreeableness! :cool:
Gray Richardson 02-26-07, 10:13 PM	The humans of Maztica are not native to Toril. They interloped in ages past from another world, possibly from the Mesoamerica region of Earth. It is very possible that the goddess Maztica is their unique conception of Chauntea, who is also Jannath and the Earthmother and other is venerated by many other names as well. Alternatively, Maztica may be a goddess that interloped from the homeworld from which the humans of that continent migrated.
Alac Luin 02-26-07, 10:51 PM	The humans of Maztica are not native to Toril. They interloped in ages past from another world, <sip> Do you have a reference for this? I've heard this before, but can't place where. I looked for a reference in the Maztica boxed set and the City of Gold, but I may be missing it. I am also aware that there may be other sources I am not accounting for. As of now, the only refrence to the oragins of any peoples is of the Dessert Dwarves, Poscadar Elves, and a speculation that the Azuposi (not exactly Mezticans) might have come from Kara-Tur.
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 11:20 PM	The humans of Maztica are not native to Toril. They interloped in ages past from another world, possibly from the Mesoamerica region of Earth. It is very possible that the goddess Maztica is their unique conception of Chauntea, who is also Jannath and the Earthmother and other is venerated by many other names as well. -Do you have a reference to that? I'm not doubting you, but I've never come across that before...
Gray Richardson 02-26-07, 11:38 PM	Sure, it's from the FRCS p. 261 in the first paragraph under the title The Newcomers where it talks about races that migrated to Faerun through portals and says "humans from other worlds migrated to places such as Kar-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara." It's also mentioned in the 2e book Powers & Pantheons on p.2 where it says "Much later, goblinkin (orcs, hobgoblins, and their lesser kin such as kobolds and goblins) entered Faerun, as did human peoples from other spheres, moving to settle in what we know as Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara." although I consider the 3e FRCS much more definitive, I wanted to include the earlier citation for completeness and to show that the lore has been around for a long time and to show that this was not any 3e revision.
bitter thorn 02-27-07, 12:23 AM	I believe that Ed has specifically metioned that Chauntea is Abier-Toril, or to put it differently the Earth Mother actually is the planet. I believe he said this in his replies in Candlekeep via THO. I'm not sure what year though.
Old Sage 02-27-07, 12:33 AM	From Ed's '04 replies, mostly. Specifically - "...Chauntea IS the land and all of its natural processes (as opposed to partial aspects of them, such as storms or the emotions and deeds of sentient inhabitants of the planet)..." There's more in the September 27th reply for '05 as well.
Lord Karsus 02-27-07, 09:18 AM	Sure, it's from the FRCS p. 261... -Hmm. Interesting. Strange that I've never picked up on that one before. I believe that Ed has specifically metioned that Chauntea is Abier-Toril, or to put it differently the Earth Mother actually is the planet. I believe he said this in his replies in Candlekeep via THO. I'm not sure what year though. -Yes, and according to Maztican myths, the goddess Maztica is the physical land itself, as well.
Gray Richardson 02-27-07, 02:06 PM	It should be noted that Chauntea was once the goddess of life for all of Realmspace. Though over the eons, she has contracted or fragmented herself to be solely the goddess of life/earth for Toril. She is not really the goddess of the planet Abeir-Toril, more like the goddess of the biosphere. It is better to think of her as similar to Toril's version of Earth's Gaia concept. It is very likely that the other planet's in Realmspace have similar goddesses of life that were fragments of the original Chauntea. In fact, I like to think that one of her fragments, the one that embodies the life of H'Catha, a beholder world and the world from which beholders settled Toril, is the Great Mother. I think it is very possible that the beholder goddess is another aspect/fragment of Chauntea, split off from her long, long ago. Beholders brought her worship with them when they came to Toril from H'Catha. This aspect is unrecognizable to Torilians, and her mindset is completely alien from the Chauntea we know. But they were once likely the same being. We know the Earthmother, worshiped in the Moonshaes, is a fragment/aspect of Chauntea, though that personality is more primal, a conception very different from the agrarian Chauntea known to the rest of Faerun.
Lord Karsus 02-27-07, 06:02 PM	In fact, I like to think that one of her fragments, the one that embodies the life of H'Catha, a beholder world and the world from which beholders settled Toril, is the Great Mother. I think it is very possible that the beholder goddess is another aspect/fragment of Chauntea, split off from her long, long ago. -Theoretically, it's possible. Remember, though, that Beholders are multispheric creatures. I'm not too learned on the subject of Beholder migration patterns, but if Beholders came from X, and eventually came to settle H'Catha, and then Abeir-Toril, why would the planet be a manifestation of the Great Mother herself? That is, of course, assuming that Beholders originally come from somewhere else, and settled on H'Catha afterwards.
MarkusTay63 02-27-07, 06:11 PM	It is very likely that the other planet's in Realmspace have similar goddesses of life that were fragments of the original Chauntea. We know the Earthmother, worshiped in the Moonshaes, is a fragment/aspect of Chauntea, though that personality is more primal, a conception very different from the agrarian Chauntea known to the rest of Faerun.Why would they be fragments of Chauntea? The creation myth is written from the perspective of what Realmsians know now, but the name Chauntea is fairly knew on a cosmic scale. I would say that all of these are 'pieces' of the original Jannath, who represented all life. Chauntea might be a major portion of the original goddess, but the name Jannath came first. I would agree that the Beholder world would have to be a piece of the original goddess before she fragmented, but I positively Loathe the idea that she was a Beholder goddess first. To think that an alien power is the human god of nourishing is rather disgusting IMHO.
GothicDan 02-28-07, 12:15 AM	Myths aside - see Sage's reply above from Ed. No myth in that statement.
Gray Richardson 02-28-07, 02:13 AM	-Theoretically, it's possible. Remember, though, that Beholders are multispheric creatures. I'm not too learned on the subject of Beholder migration patterns, but if Beholders came from X, and eventually came to settle H'Catha, and then Abeir-Toril, why would the planet be a manifestation of the Great Mother herself? That is, of course, assuming that Beholders originally come from somewhere else, and settled on H'Catha afterwards.Oh, I had that very much in mind. The question arises, did the beholders of H'Catha evolve there? Or did they colonize H'Catha from another sphere? Beholders are not native to Toril, it is a settled question that they are interlopers to Faerun. But we cannot rule out that they may be native to H'Catha. Just as there are humans that are native to Toril and other humans that came from other worlds, so too is it possible that there are native beholders in Realmspace. It is a distinct possibility that the beholders of H'Catha evolved on that world. If that is so, then the god of life, that fragment of Chauntea that contracted to become the "Gaia" of H'Catha, would naturally be venerated in beholder form. Her psyche and persona would be suitable for the alien minds of the eye tyrants. If however it turns out that H'Catha was colonized by beholders from a sphere-spanning beholder empire in the before time, in the long, long ago, then there is a different question to ask: did they bring the Great Mother with them to H'Catha? Or, did the Chauntea fragment of H'Catha take their goddess's name as an alias in order to receive their worship? If you go with the second option, it might explain a lot about how the Great Mother is seemingly insane, and also very ancient. (Notice also that the "Great Mother" is a nickname for Chauntea as well). But even if the answer is that the beholders brought the Great Mother with them from another sphere, and she was able to make the transition with them and establish herself in Realmspace, we can imagine that as beholders came to dominate the eco-system, the Great Mother would have in turn devoured any native pantheons, taken those gods (or their divine essence) into herself and assumed their powers and portfolios to become prime deity of H'Catha. In that sense, the Great Mother would still have subsumed the essence of H'Catha's Chauntea fragment, Chauntea would still be a part of her. So no matter how you look at it, the Great Mother could easily be the H'Catha fragment of the original Chauntea, or have merged with or been subsumed into a transpheric beholder goddess. Either way the Great Mother is either a fragment of Chauntea or at least has the essence of Chauntea inside her.
MarkusTay63 02-28-07, 04:52 AM	Wow, I can't believe some people actually think about this stuff more then I do. :rolleye2: I don't really like the whole concept of something twisted and alien connected to the earth goddess, it just seems a little out of place. I tell you what i do like though - you gave me an idea about beholders that i hadn't thought of. Both versions of where beholders came from are correct! And it would explain much... Back in the old greyhawk days, there was only one kind of beholder. they all looked alike, and I suppose if they met up with each other they would probably wave an eye-stalk and keep going. Then came FR and 2e, and beholders started changing, and suddenly there were several sub-species. Then came Spelljammer, and it's rules about Hive ships. Beholders from the same hive get along well enough, but VEHEMENTLY HATE other types of beholders. So my premise is, and I think YOU would REALLY like this Gray, is that a DIFFERENT species of beholder evolved in EVERY sphere. So Realmspace has native beholders from H'Catha, but other species may have interloped over time from other spheres (like the ones that crashed around the lake of steam). Now we have the best of both worlds, with a decent back story of why different looking beholders automatically attack each other on site. To native beholders, the newcomers would be hideous aliens.
Lord Karsus 02-28-07, 03:04 PM	-While we're on the topic, for anyone who doesn't have it, I, Tyrant, the 2e sourcebook on Beholders was pretty good. Not as good as the Ilithiad, in my opinion, though...
GothicDan 02-28-07, 03:09 PM	The Illithiad was awesome.
Lord Karsus 02-28-07, 03:10 PM	-It sure was. I wish there were more of those books... -The Van Richten's Guides to..., from Ravenloft, were very similar, but of course, they were somewhat limited to Ravenloft only, at the same time.
Old Sage 02-28-07, 07:47 PM	The Illithiad *is* awesome. 'Tis still my only source for all-things-illithid... even in 3e.
BrennonGoldeye 02-28-07, 08:20 PM	May I have a communal Zoidberg???..Woowowoowwowoow:coolcthul
MarkusTay63 03-01-07, 01:49 AM	I missed all of those 'species' books. :( You guys are making me feel bad. :weep: There was also a Sahuagin one, but were there any others besides those three? :confused:
ripvanwormer 03-01-07, 02:33 AM	There was also a Sahuagin one, but were there any others besides those three? Those were the only books in the Monstrous Arcana series, but you might add the 2e Draconomicon and Giantcraft to the list of 2e books centered around monstrous society/ecology. The latter two were Forgotten Realms books. All these books should be available in PDF form at various online retailers.
Lord Karsus 03-01-07, 09:20 AM	There was also a Sahuagin one, but were there any others besides those three? :confused: -Was there? I wasn't aware of that! What is it called? Those were the only books in the Monstrous Arcana series, but you might add the 2e Draconomicon and Giantcraft to the list of 2e books centered around monstrous society/ecology. The latter two were Forgotten Realms books. -Good point. Theoretically, we could also throw Dwarves Deep in the pile too.
Stigger 03-01-07, 09:23 AM	I remember the Sahuagin book I think... something about Sea Devils... been such a long time though it's kinda escaped me beyond that.
MarkusTay63 03-01-07, 10:35 AM	Yeah, it was called the sea Devils, I remember now. Don't bother trying to do a search, to much cross-interference from the devil's sea. I have the two FR ones, I didn't bother with the other three though. The Sahuagin book sat on a rack in my mall's comic store for over a year at 75% off. Every time I went in there I kept picking it up and then putting it back. I just didn't care enough about them. I think it was still there when the store went out of business. -Good point. Theoretically, we could also throw Dwarves Deep in the pile too.Ummmm... Dwarves are monsters? :confused:
Stigger 03-01-07, 04:13 PM	Well, according to you and Creyzi they fit the bill nicely, at least last I checked. ;)
ripvanwormer 03-01-07, 05:04 PM	-Good point. Theoretically, we could also throw Dwarves Deep in the pile too. And Drow of the Underdark, for that matter.
MarkusTay63 03-01-07, 11:01 PM	Well, according to you and Creyzi they fit the bill nicely, at least last I checked. ;)Actually, Dwarves are my FAVORITE demi-human race. :D They just get no love around these parts so I don't bother. Elves get all the press... it's true what they say - "There's no such thing as bad publicity"
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 12:10 AM	Ummmm... Dwarves are monsters? :confused: And Drow of the Underdark, for that matter. -Them and Drow. ;)
Stigger 03-02-07, 04:14 AM	Tsk, tsk Markus... can't have it both ways. In the fine print it clearly establishes that if you like dwarves you are not contractually able to like orcs. If you do advocate both, you default on the contract and must serve Lord Karsus as a body slave the rest of your days... poor you. :(
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 10:43 AM	:evillaugh