| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Boda02-02-07, 10:32 AM | Can anybody give an motive for the following: -Why nine chosen of Mystra? -Why does the chosen status ranks as +4, even when they have different abilities? -What's the purpose of a chosen. -Are there any other chosen besides Mystra's, Bane, Deneir, Tiamat, Silvanus, Eldath, Miellikki, Umberlee? -Are they imortal?Since they do not age... |
| Ayden02-02-07, 11:44 AM | Well, I think that there are only 8 chosen of Mystra now...what with the Blackstaff's death. If there are additional chosen, some may argue for the Srinshee (sure I misspelled that name), but I do not recall any official word of her chosen status, but could be wrong. As to why her chosen have differing abilities. For my own personal view, I think that a god or goddess would customize her chosen to fit whatever role is required and avoid uniformity due to the fact that it would make the chosen and thier powers predictable, especially if there is more than one. Additionally, I'm sure that the chosen, given thier extensive magical apptitude, could easily augment themselves as well. As to thier purpose, if I remember correctly, it was to help siphon off some of Mystra's growing power, by order of IO, and to aid her in the protection of the weave. I guess so that no one gets it in thier head to pull another Karsus (if your wondering about what I mean, ask Lord Karsus :D ) And yes, there are other chosen, Bane has one as does a few others who escape me at the time. I'm sure that the Simbul or Gothic Dan or Lord Karsus can provide a great deal more detail. Hope this helps just a bit. |
| SATA02-02-07, 12:59 PM | Can anybody give an motive for the following: -Why nine chosen of Mystra? Mystra over the years, doesn't matter in what incarnation, has had even more than 9, a few have died over the years. The reason why Mystra have so many is cuz AO gave her that order cuz she have so much power and need to divided a little bit, besides the obvious reason to protect the Weave and prevent any other Karsus Folly in the future. (I'm sure others would give you more details about AO's decision) -Why does the chosen status ranks as +4, even when they have different abilities? 'Cuz the Chosen template is pretty powerful doesn't matter the deity. They are made base on the deity and the portfolios the deity holds, that's why the difference in abilities. -What's the purpose of a chosen. Every Chosen work as champion and protector of the deity interest. -Are there any other chosen besides Mystra's, Bane, Deneir, Tiamat, Silvanus, Eldath, Miellikki, Umberlee? In theory every deity have at least one Chosen but just a few have been detailed in canon sources, an example: in 3.5e Underdark mention a Chosen of Shar, and in some novels there is a mention of at least one Chosen of Mask. -Are they imortal?Since they do not age... Personally don't know about every Chosen but at least the Chosen of Mystra are immortal and do not age but still can die over damage, spell or any other way, expect diseases I guess but not sure about the last. |
| Old Sparky02-02-07, 03:07 PM | Bah... I only have one chosen and the only thing I give to him is a boot to the head for not being more powerful on his own. I do for those that do for themselves. ;) |
| Faraer02-02-07, 05:12 PM | There's no exact, consistent definition of what a 'Chosen' is. The gods invest a few of their followers with certain special roles and powers, and folk call some of these 'Chosen'. Some have immortality in various forms, others may not. Mystra's are a unique case: they exist primarily to hold parts of her divine power as a precaution against the catastrophe of her death. It is only one mortal theory that Ao ordered this. (In Ed Greenwood's original conception, Mystra's were the only Chosen. Other authors added additional ones, misunderstanding Ed's purpose and starting something of an arms race.) The Srinshee is definitely one of them. |
| Boda02-02-07, 05:44 PM | In the chosen rank(+4), i was wondering about all know chosen having the same +4, when there abilities are very different. I could be wrong but the chosen of deneir abilities dont look like a match to a chosen of Mystra. Blackstaff is dead?! Can you please tell me where this occur? But if the deity is granting part of her power, shouldnt that make her weaker? Why to i get the feeling that theres an assumption that Mystra is more powerful than the other deities?! |
| DreamStalker02-02-07, 06:04 PM | For the various chosen templates, I think the writers have attempted to follow the CR+4 level of power that the original template had. The powers vary greatly from deity to deity, yet each grants enough abilities to supposedly warrant CR+4. I really wish people would freaking spoiler block the Blackstaff being dead bit, I was actually going to read that book in the upcoming months once I have access to everything again. There are no hard and fast rules on exactly how the Chosen as presented in recent lore as the highest representative of a deity works. Does it weaken the deity? Perhaps. It also might be a certain amount of spare power that can only be of use in a mortal or semi-mortal host. I've played Chosen as being an investment of an avatar. Mystra IS more powerful than most deities. I believe Shar is of the same Divine Rank, with Chauntea being of higher rank. Mystra has multiple Chosen because it is a storage of power. Each Chosen is a seed that can keep the Weave healthy in the result of a disaster. Lore implies that she has no control over her Chosen, and cannot take back the power until said Chosen dies. I haven't done more than skim Secrets of the Magister or the Seven Sisters sourcebooks but those should have pretty in depth accounts of what is believed to be true about Chosen of Mysta. |
| Archmage_of_Blood02-02-07, 06:05 PM | But if the deity is granting part of her power, shouldnt that make her weaker? She's just that strong that all that power is like nothing to her. Akin to the energy we use while blinking. |
| Faraer02-02-07, 06:08 PM | The spoiler which people shouldn't be so careless with is from Steven Schend's novel Blackstaff (which is still very much worth reading!). Yes, it does weaken her, and it is significant to her. Yes, Mystra is the most powerful god, excepting maybe Chauntea. |
| DreamStalker02-02-07, 06:18 PM | Relative power between deities can be difficult to gauge beyond DvR however. I think both Shar and Mystra are 18 ( I could be recalling incorrectly). I believe Corellan, Horus-Re and Moradin were also in this range. Really what it comes down to is who is most influential among mortals that can make things happen. |
| Faraer02-02-07, 06:26 PM | I agree; the exact relative power of the gods themselves is more a matter of idle sagely speculation than practical lore. Best to leave this stuff somewhat mysterious. |
| Old Sage02-02-07, 06:41 PM | Part of why Mystra's Chosen are unique is because of their role. They balance out Mystra, and store some of her power in case it's needed. They're kind of like "loyal opposition" -- they are loyal to Mystra, but they are not controlled by her, and with them having some of her power, they can act in opposition to her if she gets out of control. They are also assistants of a sort; they work to further the spread of magic, but in a pinch, they can also help to maintain the Weave. That is partly why Mystra has Chosen. That is why hers are special. The other Chosen of FR deities, or rather... Divine Champions as I like to call them, are but pale shadows. |
| Lord Karsus02-02-07, 07:07 PM | As to thier purpose, if I remember correctly, it was to help siphon off some of Mystra's growing power, by order of IO, and to aid her in the protection of the weave. I guess so that no one gets it in thier head to pull another Karsus (if your wondering about what I mean, ask Lord Karsus :D -I/We think that was a low blow...:( -Are there any other chosen besides Mystra's, Bane, Deneir, Tiamat, Silvanus, Eldath, Miellikki, Umberlee? And yes, there are other chosen, Bane has one as does a few others who escape me at the time. I'm sure that the Simbul or Gothic Dan or Lord Karsus can provide a great deal more detail. Hope this helps just a bit. -Lord Karsus to the rescue! Chosen Mystra Elminster Aumar Storm Silverhand Laeral Silverhand Alustrial Silverhand The Simbul Sylune Silverhand Qilue Veladorn Dove Falconhand Noumea Drathchuld Alvaerele Tasundrym Symrustar Auglamyr (Deceased) Khelben Arunsun (Deceased) Sammaster (Depowered and Deceased) The Srinshee Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep Nadrathen (Deceased) Bane Fzoul Chembryl Cyric Malik el Sami yn Nasser Deneir Cadderly Bonaduce Pertelope (Deceased) Eilistraee Qilue Veladorn Eldath Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Gilgleam Shuruppak (Ex-Chosen since Gilgleam's death) Mask Kesson Rel Avner of Hartsvale Erevis Cale Drasek Riven Mielikki Jeryth Phaulkon Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Oghma Sephris Dwendon Shar Yes, according to Underdark Silvanus Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Talona The Rotting Man Tiamat Tchazzar Ubtao Alisandra Rayburton Dhlamass Rayburton Ras Ni Fipya Kwalu Mainu Ossaw I Umberlee Slarkrathel Malar Anth-Malar Lolth Liriel Baenre (possibly but might be a ExChosen) Halisstra Melarn, the Lady Penitent Merrshaulk/Sseth Pil'it'ith (Ex-Chosen) Sehanine Moonbow Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep Labelas Enoreth Vartan Hai Sylver The Seldarine Queen Amlaruil of Evermeet Ilyrana Gzimnind Skixtalq Possible Chosen Gruumsh Obould Many-Arrows Teylas Yamun Khahan Qotal Erix |
| Archmage_of_Blood02-02-07, 07:36 PM | Possible Chosen Gruumsh Obould Many-Arrows I sincerely hope not. |
| JBeauMI02-02-07, 07:41 PM | Regarding, why nine chosen of Mystra, perhaps that is related to the nine schools of magic (if you count universal)? As far as them all being different, why would they not be? Pick any nine epic level wizards off the tree (not my tree, mind you), and I bet you will find a lot of differences. Why not tailor the benefits to fit the Chosen? |
| GothicDan02-02-07, 07:52 PM | I believe there are actually like 10 or 11 Chosen of Mystra at the time. |
| MerrikCale02-02-07, 08:43 PM | -Why nine chosen of Mystra? because she can't count to ten |
| boards02-02-07, 08:50 PM | At what point did the Shrinshee become a chosen of Mystra, when she was brought back to life, or at some later point? |
| Zevox02-02-07, 09:05 PM | Regarding, why nine chosen of Mystra, perhaps that is related to the nine schools of magic (if you count universal)? Take a look at the list LK posted again - Mystra has more than that. Even with it not being confirmed that that list is all her Chosen (I believe Ed has said there may be more he hasn't revealed, if I remember a conversation I had a long time ago with Kuje right), she has twelve now, with four deceased (one recently). As far as them all being different, why would they not be? Pick any nine epic level wizards off the tree (not my tree, mind you), and I bet you will find a lot of differences. Why not tailor the benefits to fit the Chosen? *shrugs* For whatever reason, Mystra chose to confer the same benefits to all of her Chosen. In fact, the only Deity we know gives different benefits to different Chosen is Mask (though the full extent of what hes given them isn't known, it is known that he granted Erevis Cale the blade Weaveshear and enhancements to his Shade abilities, while Drasek Riven was given knowledge of the Black Speech and the ability to heal his wounds with shadows). Zevox |
| Boda02-02-07, 09:14 PM | But someone pointed out that they are loyal opposition, so how did sammaster lost it's status? Nine schools of magic!?Then they should represent something in those schools. So...what does Dove stands for? Shar has a chosen?!Isnt she a little too niihilistic for it?! Is obould is, ... them he's the weakest of them all! And no chosen of tempus?that would be a mean chump! |
| Lord Karsus02-02-07, 10:35 PM | I sincerely hope not. -That's why I wrote 'Possible'. ;) At what point did the Shrinshee become a chosen of Mystra, when she was brought back to life, or at some later point? -Yes. But someone pointed out that they are loyal opposition, so how did sammaster lost it's status? -See the Cult of the Dragon sourcebook for the full story. Shar has a chosen?!Isnt she a little too niihilistic for it?! -Maybe...Maybe not...Who's to say...What does it matter though? None of this matters... Is obould is, ... them he's the weakest of them all! -If he is indeed a Chosen of Gruumsh, the issue of him being stronger/weaker than other deities' Chosen is very dependent on a host of mitigating factors. For instance, if they were fighting in the middle of a desert, I would think that Obould Many-Arrows might best Slarkrathel, the Chosen of Umberlee. And no chosen of tempus?that would be a mean chump! -On the 'Post your Chosen Template' thread, people have made their own. But, no, Tempus has no official Chosen in the Realms. |
| Old Sage02-02-07, 10:40 PM | But someone pointed out that they are loyal opposition, so how did sammaster lost it's status?Sammaster was stripped of his Chosen powers in 875 DR -- see Cult of the Dragon for the events surrounding his fall. |
| Faraer02-02-07, 10:45 PM | Tempus seems a particularly unlikely god to have anything much like Chosen, since he favours both sides in battles, or the most valorous and puissant. A Chosen on one side or another would rather contradict that. I think the best model we've seen of a favoured servant of the Lord of Battles is Baergil's valiant sacrifice in All Shadows Fled. |
| The_Shaman02-03-07, 09:51 AM | .. Weird, when I saw Obould statted there was nothing about him being chosed (FRCS, I believe). Where do you have that from, Karsus? Also, keep in mind that many of the chosen were empowered by Mystra's previous incarnation, many years ago. While the act might have been somewhat draining for Lady M, she's had a long time to recover. |
| Archmage_of_Blood02-03-07, 10:23 AM | .. Weird, when I saw Obould statted there was nothing about him being chosed (FRCS, I believe). Where do you have that from, Karsus? 1. Chosen not chosed. 2. I believe he got the idea of him being Chosen of Gruumsh (only "possibly") from R.A. Salvatore's Hunter's Blades Trilogy. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, Karsus, as I will defer to you on all matters concerning FR. (See my sig) |
| Red_Wizard02-03-07, 11:41 AM | Ubtao Alisandra Rayburton Dhlamass Rayburton Ras Ni Fipya Kwalu Mainu Ossaw I Only change i'll make is Ras T'fima on the list :) |
| jwanderer502-03-07, 04:26 PM | Avner of Hartsvale a Chosen of Mask? He was made to be the Seraph of Theives, not one of his Chosen. |
| Boda02-03-07, 06:42 PM | But that would mean that without chosen, mystra would the mightiest deity around( except Ao)!? In the case of obould vs chosen of umberlee in the desert, the victor wouldnt be obould but the desert! Since Cyric is little insane, is there any possibility that he makes shurrupak(the grim reaper) is new chosen? So with all these chosen, why does mystra needs the magister for? And picking up the chosen per school of magic, wouldnt szass tam or aumvor be better to stand for necromancy? |
| Old Sage02-03-07, 07:38 PM | So with all these chosen, why does mystra needs the magister for?Because the Magister serves, basically, as the personal champion of Mystra. They are magic users (only one Magister can exist at a time) selected by Azuth and Mystra to promote the Art -- through both the tasks they are each directed to perform and their individual mastery of magic -- in the Realms. See the Secrets of the Magister tome for an in-depth look at the Magister and his/her place in the Realms. |
| Lord Karsus02-03-07, 11:14 PM | 1. Chosen not chosed. 2. I believe he got the idea of him being Chosen of Gruumsh (only "possibly") from R.A. Salvatore's Hunter's Blades Trilogy. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, Karsus, as I will defer to you on all matters concerning FR. (See my sig) -Exactly. His exact nature has yet to be revealed. Some say because Obould is "He-who-is-Gruumsh", he is one of One-Eye's Chosen. Others say that he just recieved a couple of stat boost from the witchdoctors. Either way...That's why I said, 'possible'. Avner of Hartsvale a Chosen of Mask? He was made to be the Seraph of Theives, not one of his Chosen. -In 3e, Chosen, Seraphim, and Proxies have all been mushed into the same thing. .. Weird, when I saw Obould statted there was nothing about him being chosed (FRCS, I believe). Where do you have that from, Karsus? -Obould from the FRCS was written before the events of the Hunter's Blade Trilogy were actually written. |
| Zevox02-04-07, 02:15 AM | But that would mean that without chosen, mystra would the mightiest deity around( except Ao)!? Perhaps - perhaps she'd be more powerful than Ao even. The exact extent of how powerful she would be isn't known for certain, but Ed has said (if my memory doesn't fail me) that she'd have become an Overdeity herself if Ao hadn't ordered her to give out her power to the Chosen. Zevox |
| Boda02-04-07, 12:41 PM | Why? Why would she become an overdeity? Why not chauntea? Is magic more powerful than life?! Or death?! And if she was born of light and darkness (selune and shar), should she be less powerful then both? If magic is an aplication of knowledge, then should oghma be at least as powerful as her? It is possible to a world exist and evolve without magic, not quite so without the others! |
| jwanderer502-04-07, 10:20 PM | Since when were Seraphs and Proxies mushed together into a catch all of Chosen? Or more specifically where does it say that? |
| Lord Karsus02-04-07, 11:43 PM | Since when were Seraphs and Proxies mushed together into a catch all of Chosen? Or more specifically where does it say that? -The Seraphim from 2e, such as Avner of Heartsdale, and Malik have turned into Chosen, in 3e sourcebooks. Planescape never really detailed any proxies of the Faerûnian deities, but I think it's safe to assume that they'd be turned into Chosen as well, since the "jobs" are very, very similar. |
| DreamStalker02-05-07, 01:29 AM | Yeah, in 3rd the term Chosen was broadened even further. It had already been more broad than intended by Ed, but oh well. That happens. Essentially, we can consider it there are two types of Chosen. The Chosen as in Mystra's Chosen who have a bit of the divine essence of the Weave within them and Silverfire. Then the Chosen which are the Chosen Champions of specific gods. These are not holders of the divine essence in the same way, they cannot use this essence to replace their deity, more they are people invested with special powers by their gods. |
| Zevox02-05-07, 01:35 AM | Why? Why would she become an overdeity? Why not chauntea? Is magic more powerful than life?! Or death?! And if she was born of light and darkness (selune and shar), should she be less powerful then both? If magic is an aplication of knowledge, then should oghma be at least as powerful as her? It is possible to a world exist and evolve without magic, not quite so without the others! Its because of the sheer power of the Weave, and the fact that Mystra is the physical embodiment of it. Technically speaking, your first statement is true - magic is more powerful than life or death (it can literally control both, you'll note). Her (or rather the original Goddess of Magic, Mystryl) originating from Shar and Selûne in no way limits her power by theirs, and magic isn't so much an application of knowledge as it is a separate power that mortals require knowledge of in order to use. Oghma might have nearly as much knowledge of magic as Mystra, and surely more than any mortal, but Mystra is magic, is the Weave, and because of that she would have power enough to be an Overdeity (which would mean she would no longer require mortal worship to exist) were it not for Ao's order that she create the Chosen. And actually, if memory serves, your last statement is incorrect in the Realms. I believe I've heard some of the Candlekeepers around here mention that the Weave, and thus magic, is fundamentally linked to everything in the Realms. Don't go quoting me on that though, as my memory on that topic is much more hazy than on the Mystra/Overdeity one. Zevox |
| Lord Karsus02-05-07, 01:36 AM | These are not holders of the divine essence in the same way, they cannot use this essence to replace their deity, more they are people invested with special powers by their gods. -They're more like 2e Proxies. They are empowered by a deity, to perform specific and important tasks for them. |
| Boda02-05-07, 12:31 PM | How does magic controls life and dead? Doesnt it controls a life and a death?! So if chauntea goes, doesnt life goes with her? So mystra is her portfolio, but no other god is? When karsus disrupted the weave, shouldnt the world ended? The are races that have no magic talent whatsoever, so magic cant be linked to all. So if she an enemy of shar, selune also, lathander also, tyr also, oghma also, then why is shar still around? So if mystra is magic, in all it's forms, then how did shar created the shadow weave? What about psionics?Is it magic? Shouldnt the psionic gods have something to say about it( ilsensine, duerra)? |
| Lord Karsus02-05-07, 01:28 PM | When karsus disrupted the weave, shouldnt the world ended? -To quote my Mad third, "Toril would not go BOOM if the Weave is destroyed. Check Ed's September 29, 2005 reply at Candlekeep and stop insisting the world goes BOOM." So if mystra is magic, in all it's forms, then how did shar created the shadow weave? -We have no clue as to the true origins of the Shadow Weave. And Shar, being the goddess of secrets, is not likely to tell. Shar is just as likely to have created it as she is to have stolen it from somewhere else. For all we know, Mystryl could have unknowingly created it, but Shar learned how of it, and how to master it's powers before she did. What about psionics?Is it magic? Shouldnt the psionic gods have something to say about it -Yes, and they do. |
| 42102-05-07, 02:03 PM | So if mystra is magic, in all it's forms, then how did shar created the shadow weave? Mystra is not magic, she is the weave. Psionics can use magic without using the weave. What about psionics?Is it magic? Shouldnt the psionic gods have something to say about it The god of magic was auppenser, but I think he died/was disabled following the fall of Jhaamdath. |
| Boda02-05-07, 02:14 PM | So mystra is in fact a quasi-overdeity. That got canned by a netherese wizard(karsus)! Very impressive, nethermage! Just a doubt. I read that one of mystra's chosen (silune i think) is a ghost? That's like an undead type? Shouldnt the cleric of lathander or kelemvor be trying to turn her away( since they are anti-undead)? |
| Zevox02-05-07, 06:09 PM | How does magic controls life and dead? Doesnt it controls a life and a death?! Spells like Raise Dead, Undeath to Death, Finger of Death, and so on control the forces of life and death, no? Thats basically the entire focus of the school of Necromancy - controlling life and death with magic. So if chauntea goes, doesnt life goes with her? In a sense - Chauntea is Toril, so if she went, you'd either need to replace her at the same instant she died, or Toril itself would die, which would cause everything on it to die. You'll note that she does not have the portfolio of "life" though, so life in and of itself is not tied to her save in the ways it is tied to the planet Abeir-Toril. So mystra is her portfolio, but no other god is? Actually, quite a number of other Gods are; possibly even the entire Faerûnian pantheon. Selûne is the moon in the literal physical sense, Chauntea is Abeir-Toril, Kelemvor is Death (note that when Cyric lost that portfolio, there was a brief period of time before Kelemvor was raised as a deity that no one on Toril could die), and so on. Basically if its not an abstract concept, the Faerûnian deity with it as a portfolio is the physical embodiment of it. When karsus disrupted the weave, shouldnt the world ended? The are races that have no magic talent whatsoever, so magic cant be linked to all. *shrugs* The disruption was quite temporary (just long enough for most of the Netherese enclaves to crash), but note also I said I was far from sure about the link between the Weave and life on the Prime. As for races with no magical talent, that usually stems from poor mental capacities, not some inherent disconnect with the Weave. So if she an enemy of shar, selune also, lathander also, tyr also, oghma also, then why is shar still around? None of them are eager to potentially commit suicide by battling Shar directly. All of them know that some of the things Shar embodies are necessary for the multiverse to exist. All of them know how badly such a battle would disrupt the balance of the cosmos (and what kind of ass-whupping Ao would lay down on them if they let happen ;) ). Any number of reasons, really. Its the same as why Cyric is still around but is basically enemies with everyone and totally without allies. So if mystra is magic, in all it's forms, then how did shar created the shadow weave? The Shadow Weave's origins are virtually unknown. Its kind of a black sheep of a WotC plothole in the Realms, really. The few sources that do give an indication of it tend to contradict each other - the Return of the Archwizards novels indicate it split from the Weave during Karsus' Folly, but many other sources indicate its existence before then. Good luck trying to figure that little puzzle out is all I can say to it. What about psionics?Is it magic? Shouldnt the psionic gods have something to say about it( ilsensine, duerra)? No, Psionics is not magic. It is an entirely separate power, not dependent on the Weave or anything like it, but powered by the mind of those gifted with it. So the psionics deities (particularly the non-Faerûnian ones like Ilsensine or Duerra) really have nothing to do with Mystra or the Weave. The god of magic was auppenser, but I think he died/was disabled following the fall of Jhaamdath. Auppenser was the God of Psionics, not Magic (thats Mystra). But yes, he declined rapidly in power when Jhaamdath fell due to lack of worshipers, and Mystra put him into a sort of stasis to prevent him from dying (had he died, Psionics would no longer exist on Toril, which she didn't want to see happen). Nowadays all he can do is supply a small handful of worshipers with spells while in his stasis-state and hope that one day he gains following enough to awaken again. So mystra is in fact a quasi-overdeity. That got canned by a netherese wizard(karsus)! Very impressive, nethermage! No, Mystra is, as the books say, a Greater Deity. She simply could be an Overdeity if she weren't forced by the existing one to dilute her power. Just a doubt. I read that one of mystra's chosen (silune i think) is a ghost? That's like an undead type? Shouldnt the cleric of lathander or kelemvor be trying to turn her away( since they are anti-undead)? I think Sylune is something of a recluse, if what little I've read about her is sticking with me correctly. Besides, she'd surely know how to hide from the types of folks that would have that reflexive reaction to her. Zevox |
| Boda02-05-07, 07:47 PM | So if chauntea is aber-toril, and by Ao decree, the gods power and ranking are linked to the prime material plane, shouldnt chauntea be more powerful than mystra?Meaning that chauntea is closer to the overdeity status than mystra? Besides, were does this awesome power of mystra comes from? Even if all the people related to magic worshiped her(and they dont), they couldnt outnumber all the people related with fertility( farmers, mothers, midwives,etc). Still dont understand how a portfolio that sustains another can be less powerful? By the way, necromancy doesnt control life or death. It studies the manipulation of death's forces. Finger of death doesnt control life more than a spear does. And other than ressurection( that needs a deity say so to work), the other necromantic effects merely create a sort of undead minions, devoided of true life. Has for Lichdoom, it doesnt stop death, merely buys more time, for when a lich is destroyed and his phylathery( dont if wrote it right) too, it dies. |
| jwanderer502-05-07, 10:19 PM | Again, my question wasn't answered. Where specifically does it call Avner and Malik Chosen and not Seraphs? What book? What author? |
| Zevox02-05-07, 11:30 PM | So if chauntea is aber-toril, and by Ao decree, the gods power and ranking are linked to the prime material plane, shouldnt chauntea be more powerful than mystra?Meaning that chauntea is closer to the overdeity status than mystra? Not at all - in fact, its only because of her importance to farmers and the massive amount of worship she receives from them (albeit mostly in the form of the odd prayer now and then, not from extensive religious devotion) that she is as powerful as she is. Being Abeir-Toril itself doesn't lend her any measure of power, since Abeir-Toril is not inherently a source of power the way the Weave is (remember, in the Realms, not even Druids can get spells without the Gods - nature has no power of its own). She is on par with Mystra as-is (due to having much more extensive mortal worship than Mystra), but unlike Mystra, she has never had the potential to reach Overgod status. Besides, were does this awesome power of mystra comes from? Even if all the people related to magic worshiped her(and they dont), they couldnt outnumber all the people related with fertility( farmers, mothers, midwives,etc). As I said, from being the Weave. Magic is power, so literally being the very source of all magic on the Prime gives her inherently tremendous power. Not so with Chauntea, who basically only gets power from her worshipers. Still dont understand how a portfolio that sustains another can be less powerful? Er, how do Chauntea's portfolios (Agriculture, Plants cultivated by Humans, Farmers, Gardeners, and Summer) sustain Mystra's (Magic, Spells, The Weave)? Remember that the Weave suffuses the entire Prime Material Plane, not just Abeir-Toril itself, and even if Abeir-Toril ceased to exist the Weave would remain. By the way, necromancy doesnt control life or death. It studies the manipulation of death's forces. Finger of death doesnt control life more than a spear does. And other than ressurection( that needs a deity say so to work), the other necromantic effects merely create a sort of undead minions, devoided of true life. Has for Lichdoom, it doesnt stop death, merely buys more time, for when a lich is destroyed and his phylathery( dont if wrote it right) too, it dies. I'd recommend taking a look at the PHB description of the Necromancy school my friend. It reads: "Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and life force." So yes, Necromancy does study the manipulation/control (same thing) of the forces of life and death (or their "forces", however you want to put it - its the same thing). Again, my question wasn't answered. Where specifically does it call Avner and Malik Chosen and not Seraphs? What book? What author? As LK said, they were combined into the same thing in 3.X, which by default makes them such. They're still Seraphs, thats just another form of/name for a Chosen now. Though if you want a book it was mentioned in, Paul Kemp's novel Dawn of Night includes Avner among a list of Mask's Chosen given to Erevis Cale when he embraced his Shade powers (the other names are the others on that list - his own, Drasek Riven, and Kesson Rel). Zevox |
| Boda02-06-07, 03:02 PM | Can a cleric of mystra bring back from the death a follower of kelemvor without his say-so? Without aber-toril, whats the use of the weave? Didnt Ao defined divine ranking related to mortal worship? weave is not a mortal. It is a deity or a thing. Since mystra power comes from the weave and not from worship, as you say, so the power of the psionic deity ausppenser( i think thats the name ) shouldnt have stayed the same after the fall of jaamdath? So Bane get is power from hate? And kelemvor from death?(everybody dies so he should be the mightiest!) If mystra created the chosen so she could share her power, maybe chauntea did the same? So mighty, and got killed twice. |
| Dark Wizard02-06-07, 03:55 PM | Toril is not the only world in Realmspace. The other planets would keep on using the weave or so the theory goes. I like to think of the Weave and magic as extending to the general belief in and more importantly the existence of the supernatural. The Realms is a very supernatural world. Everyone from a commoner to a noble to an adventurer believes in some form of the supernatural, whether it be deities, monsters, formal magic, superstition, etc. Normally, on a world like Earth, these factors are limited, but in the Realms they are very real. Every aspect of existence, from life to death, the elements and nature, basic or complex abstract concepts are seen with a magical twist to them. Every instance of the unexplained written off as magical (which is to say most of the unexplained in the Realms) adds to the power of the magic portfolio. Magic is the stuff of fears and wonders, perhaps interwined into those concepts as much as those very portfolios themselves. Even if one discovers the true cause of an unexplained phenomenon, the cause often involves magic anyway since magic replaces part of the 'physics' of the Realms. Magic is not limited to just spellcasters, though they are an influential bunch. I think that is why the deity of magic is so powerful in the Realms. Then again, this is just my personal interpretation, I could be completely wrong. |
| Cyril Lokner02-06-07, 04:02 PM | But that would mean that without chosen, mystra would the mightiest deity around( except Ao)!? Could you please explain to me why this statement could be true? I don't believe the might of a deity depends on how many chosen they currently sponsor. I believe that how many chosen a deity has is a reflection of their power. |
| GothicDan02-06-07, 04:26 PM | Each of Mystra's Chosen 'siphon off' a little of her energy, as she is forced to do by AO. Without AO forcing her to do this, she'd have a little more divine energy for each Chosen she didn't have. |
| Boda02-06-07, 05:18 PM | AH! Your point, Dark Wizard, is very new way to look at it, and makes more sense that the teory of weave is mightier. I personally believe that Mystra is one of mightiest deity on aber-toril, just not the mightiest. Sometimes i think that the worship of mystra on EARTH is what gives her this quasi-overdeity status. And, she isnt the only deity of magic ( corellon, isis, toth ).So why should chauntea be unique to toril? By the way, why did 2ªMystra choose midnight as her heir? why not one of her chosen? Midkinght was a mortal right? So couldnt the Karsus danger thing happen ( weave disruption )? |
| Lord Karsus02-06-07, 11:56 PM | By the way, why did 2ªMystra choose midnight as her heir? -It was convienient? Who really knows how the minds of the divine work? For all we know, Mystra could have been following Midnight for years, carefully grooming her. Or, it could have all been completely accidental. why not one of her chosen? -Elminster took on a lot of Mystra's fading essence in the Shadows of the Avatar Trilogy Midkinght was a mortal right? -Correct. So couldnt the Karsus danger thing happen ( weave disruption )? -A few reasons...Firstly, only my/ourself and Mystra know the formula I/We used to develop the spell. She has since purged all records of it from Faerûn. Next, Mystra, upon being concieved, placed a ban on all magics higher than 9th level. In other words, the powerful and destructive 10th, 11th and 12th level spells the Netherese used were no longer availible to mortal mages. They could mimic them as Epic spells, at their own risk, but these spells did not pull at the Weave as much as the original versions of the spells did. |
| Terraneaux02-07-07, 01:19 AM | Really, the reason Mystra is so powerful is because Ed wants her to be. It doesn't make sense, and essentially she doesn't play by the same rules as the other deities because he really, really likes his wizards and thinks that if they worship a god it should be some kind of ubergod. |
| Zevox02-07-07, 03:19 AM | Can a cleric of mystra bring back from the death a follower of kelemvor without his say-so? Under typical circumstances, a Cleric of any Deity can bring back a follower of any other without the other Deity's say-so. If the one they're resurrecting is willing to return and they use a spell like Raise Dead, theres no need for the God's say-so for the resurrection to occur; particularly if the mortal's soul hasn't reached their Deity's divine realm. Hell, the only instance where you really need to negotiate with a Deity is when trying to resurrect someone Kelemvor has stuck in the Wall of the Faithless if memory serves. Of course, if the Deity wishes to make an issue of it, no mortal magic is going to bypass them and bring back someone they wish to keep dead, but thats a rare event to say the very least. Without aber-toril, whats the use of the weave? As others noted, theres other worlds on the Prime that use the Weave. Hells, I think I heard someone around here say there are beings living on Selûne to boot, and they'd surely need the Weave to work magic. Didnt Ao defined divine ranking related to mortal worship? weave is not a mortal. It is a deity or a thing. The Weave itself isn't a Deity - Mystra is. Its a fine line, what with Mystra being the Weave and all (a bit like trying to grasp the Christian concept of the Trinity, now that I think of it), but they are at once one and separate in that Mystra is the Goddess while the Weave is the raw magic permeating the Prime; yet they're the same in that Mystra embodies the Weave. She does have much of her power tied to mortal worship, like all other Deities, but the Weave itself being a source of raw power gives her an inherent power beyond just that. Since mystra power comes from the weave and not from worship, as you say, so the power of the psionic deity ausppenser( i think thats the name ) shouldnt have stayed the same after the fall of jaamdath? So Bane get is power from hate? And kelemvor from death?(everybody dies so he should be the mightiest!) As above, the Weave is different in this respect. Because it is the source of all magical power on the Prime, it is itself a source of raw power, and being as Mystra is the embodiment of the Weave that means she has all that power - in essence, she is magical power incarnate as a Deity. Not so with Psionics, which stems from the power of the individual's mind; or Death or Hate, which have no inherent power of their own. Auppenser, Kelemvor, and Bane are dependent on worship wholly for their power. All the other Gods are. If mystra created the chosen so she could share her power, maybe chauntea did the same? No Chosen of Chauntea have ever been reported in the Realms, and even if they were they'd probably be Chosen in the sense that all other Deities have them - much the same relationship to their God as with Mystra's, but with just granted special abilities rather than a spark of their divine essence. Only Mystra has been said to have to give mortals that, and I doubt any Deity would willingly weaken them self like that. So mighty, and got killed twice. To be technical, in the first instance she sacrificed herself to save the Weave, she wasn't actually killed by Karsus' spell (whether she would have been had she not sacrificed herself, I don't know). And in the second she was greatly diminished and stuck in avatar form anyway - not much in the way of divine might left in that state. That one was kind of a stupid moment for her, really - you'd think she'd know better than to try what she did in her state. *shrugs* I personally believe that Mystra is one of mightiest deity on aber-toril, just not the mightiest. Sometimes i think that the worship of mystra on EARTH is what gives her this quasi-overdeity status. As cannon stands, its a toss up between her and Chauntea who is more powerful. Mystra commands more raw power, but Chauntea commands much more divine worship, and thus has a higher divine rank. So shes either #1 or #2 as far as cannon goes, depending on how you look at it. And, she isnt the only deity of magic ( corellon, isis, toth ).So why should chauntea be unique to toril? *blinks* Um, are those two statements supposed to be related to each other? :confused: But anyway, as for the other Deities of Magic, note that none of them are Faerûnian Deities - all are interlopers from other worlds (Corellon from the Elven homeworld; Isis, Toth, and Set from Earth; etc). Its the Faerûnian Gods, who are either native to Toril or accepted by Ao into its native pantheon, who posses the innate link to their portfolios where they embody them, not interlopers in other pantheons. Typical example: Sehanine Moonbow is a Goddess of the Moon, but Selûne is the Moon. Sehanine represents the Elven beliefs and ideals about the moon, and to some degree Selûne does the same for her worshipers, but only Selûne actually is the Moon in the physical sense. As for Chauntea question, I'm not sure I understand it. What do you mean "why should she be unique to Toril"? Shes a Faerûnian Deity - where else would she be? Really, the reason Mystra is so powerful is because Ed wants her to be. Um, duh? Ed created the Realms. Everything in it is as it is because thats the way he made them - thats the way things made sense to him. Aside from alterations by TSR/WotC, thats why anything and everything in the Realms is what it is. Theres in-world explanations and reasons for anything he put in it, though, which is what we tend to discuss around here. Zevox |
| Lord Karsus02-07-07, 10:47 AM | Really, the reason Mystra is so powerful is because Ed wants her to be. It doesn't make sense, and essentially she doesn't play by the same rules as the other deities because he really, really likes his wizards and thinks that if they worship a god it should be some kind of ubergod. -You're gonna catch a lot of heat from that one...:rolleyes: |
| Tyshanis02-07-07, 11:07 AM | Mielikki Jeryth Phaulkon Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Have to add Otar current Green regent, Kalahar two- hands former green regent Guev'Ressunuee Green dragon first green regent As per the Legacy of the Green Regent Campaign |
| Lord Karsus02-07-07, 11:13 AM | Have to add Otar current Green regent, Kalahar two- hands former green regent Guev'Ressunuee Green dragon first green regent As per the Legacy of the Green Regent Campaign -I don't believe that the Green Regent campaign is considered canon. |
| GothicDan02-07-07, 03:15 PM | Really, the reason Mystra is so powerful is because Ed wants her to be. It doesn't make sense, and essentially she doesn't play by the same rules as the other deities because he really, really likes his wizards and thinks that if they worship a god it should be some kind of ubergod. First of all, Ed didn't even want Mystra to be the goddess of magic. Secondly, when Ed created Mystra and first printed the Realms, "the rules" for deity power (the little there was) were different than the current campaign setting reflects. Third, Ed created ALL of the Faerunian deities. If anything, I'd say he likes his sages and bards (Oghmites, one might say) more than his wizards. And lastly, why shouldn't the deity of magic be an ubergod? |
| JBeauMI02-07-07, 07:21 PM | Is it accurate to think of the weave as a power grid for magic throughout the realms. Using that analogy, Mystra becomes the "power company" so anyone or anything that uses magic pays into her divinity. So the Chosen of Mystra are like . . . substations or magical capacitors? |
| Tyshanis02-07-07, 07:56 PM | -I don't believe that the Green Regent campaign is considered canon. If an offical campaign is not considered cannon than I really don't what is.:weep: |
| Stigger02-07-07, 08:21 PM | Is it accurate to think of the weave as a power grid for magic throughout the realms. Using that analogy, Mystra becomes the "power company" so anyone or anything that uses magic pays into her divinity. So the Chosen of Mystra are like . . . substations or magical capacitors? The mental image of Elminster in a hard hat giving grief to a wizard for not paying his magic bill on time was just priceless... :D |
| Lord Karsus02-07-07, 09:00 PM | If an offical campaign is not considered cannon than I really don't what is.:weep: -Well, the fact that none of the information (a lot of which is some pretty deep stuff) has ever been referenced as happening, in any sourcebook, leads be to believe that it is indeed a non-canon campaign. Think of it like Neverwinter Nights. Yes, that was an official video game, but it was non-canon. |
| ZolDarklock02-08-07, 12:43 AM | Ao is not all powerful, if any of the gods of Toril did anything that might put the multiverse in any kind of chaos or jeopardy, other overgod's or even more powerful beings would step in and prevent such acts, even if this means giving Ao himself an beating for allowing it to happen remember when Ao gave all of the gods a nice little torture session right before the ToT, there are beings who can and will do the same thing to ovegods if they fail at their duties |
| see02-08-07, 12:55 AM | First of all, Ed didn't even want Mystra to be the goddess of magic. Er, back in 1981, long before Ed sold the Realms to TSR, he did an article for Dragon entitled "Down-to-earth divinity One DM’s design for a mixed & matched mythos". This article clearly has Mystra as the Goddess of Magic. Third, Ed created ALL of the Faerunian deities. If anything, I'd say he likes his sages and bards (Oghmites, one might say) more than his wizards. Actually, he didn't create Waukeen (Jeff Grub did), and I'm not sure about Cyric or Kelemvor. |
| ZolDarklock02-08-07, 01:31 AM | If all what has been said about the power of Mystra here is correct, then what about Thoth, to me he is a much better god of magic, since he original came to Toril by following his enslaved followers here, he in his own sphere must have been an overgod like power, now that he can truly stretch his full divine on Toril now, what stops him from being more powerful than any god on Toril now, or considering he is worshipped on multiple spheres, as the god of magic, would his power even exceed Ao's ??? |
| Boda02-08-07, 09:16 AM | Finger of death controls life or death? Why? Because it causes death? So does disintegrate, or a spear in the heart! Is mystra the deity of magic in Kara-tur? Maztica? Is she worshiped anywhere else other than FR? If she is, for being magic, cant chauntea also be, for being fertility? The tale of creation of aber toril, as i read it, says that the sisters(selune & shar) created chauntea and then, selune ignited the sun, and then shar attacked her, AND THEN, in the middle of the combat, due to a action of selune the weave was created(mystril). So Chauntea doesnt need the weave. Being aber-toril, this also means that exisistence, in the broad sense, doesnt need magic. But the weave surely needs life (as a product of fertility), to have a purpose. If the reason to consider mystra with the quasi-overdeity status is based on the game creators say so, ok. It's within their rights to do so. But ignoring the fact that she doesnt follow the same logic that the other deities do, that's the same as the DRIZZT RULES! crowd. So you believe that nature has no power? Surely it must have, or their wouldnt be any spellcasters! So FR religious system is the only one ever, to place a deity of magic (and only magic) as it's most likely powerful member. Very curious cultural inovation. |
| Red_Wizard02-08-07, 10:45 AM | Finger of death controls life or death? Why? Because it causes death? So does disintegrate, or a spear in the heart! Necromancy used to incoporate the Healing, and raising spells aswell, but they have since been given to the conjuration school for some unknown reason. Personally this need to balance the Schools that was under taken, is the most goofy thing that Wizards has done with the magic system. Conjuration has aquired a number of spells that make no sence given it's description. So FR religious system is the only one ever, to place a deity of magic (and only magic) as it's most likely powerful member. Very curious cultural inovation. They don't nessasarily worship the same god by name, but in power, they very well may be the same divine being. There are a number of cases in which one deity destroys, and then controls the portfolios of another Deity, and still grant's powers to the deceased god's followers. Also, If you look even so far as Calimshan, they worship Anachtyr (Tyr), and Bhaelros (Talos), both common gods, but there they're known differently. Continuing to use Calimshan, you will also see that the god Ibrandul they worshipped, was killed and now is Shar using his Guise there. |
| Lord Karsus02-08-07, 01:20 PM | Ao is not all powerful, if any of the gods of Toril did anything that might put the multiverse in any kind of chaos or jeopardy, other overgod's or even more powerful beings would step in and prevent such acts, even if this means giving Ao himself an beating for allowing it to happen remember when Ao gave all of the gods a nice little torture session right before the ToT, there are beings who can and will do the same thing to ovegods if they fail at their duties -Ao is the closest thing there is to an omnipotent force in Realmspace. We don't know if there are "over-overdeities", or such things. We do know that Ao has some kind of superior, but we don't know the nature of said luminous being. He could be more powerful than Ao, or he could be less powerful than Ao in Realmspace. For all we know, that being could have been a subconscious manifestation of Ao, just like Azuth has subconscious manifestations. If all what has been said about the power of Mystra here is correct, then what about Thoth, to me he is a much better god of magic, since he original came to Toril by following his enslaved followers here, he in his own sphere must have been an overgod like power, now that he can truly stretch his full divine on Toril now, what stops him from being more powerful than any god on Toril now, or considering he is worshipped on multiple spheres, as the god of magic, would his power even exceed Ao's ??? -Thoth originally came from Earth. Obviously, we know that magic isn't real here. But, back in the times of the Ancient Egyptians, they didn't believe Thoth to be the ultimate power in their pantheon. Going my that logic, Horus-Re would be the most powerful deity, since he did exactly what Thoth did, but he also has Thoth in a subservient position. -The reason why Mystra is so strong is not because she is the deity of magic. It is because she is the Weave incarnate. No matter how many other deities of magic there are in Faerûn, and the surrounding continents, Mystra will always be stonger than them (concerning magic anyway. Corellon Larethian, for instance, is stronger than mystra, but due to other reasons) because she is the Weave itself, and everyone taps into it, and thus, her. The tale of creation of aber toril, as i read it, says that the sisters(selune & shar) created chauntea and then, selune ignited the sun, and then shar attacked her, AND THEN, in the middle of the combat, due to a action of selune the weave was created(mystril). -Remember, this is only a creation myth. Ever find it odd that Shar, Selûne, Chauntea and Mystryl and all of the other deities were created "first", even though the Sarrukh held dominance over the planet first? I believe there is some truth to this myth, though. Every society probably has it's own version of it, which is more or less similar. Is mystra the deity of magic in Kara-tur? Maztica? Is she worshiped anywhere else other than FR? If she is, for being magic, cant chauntea also be, for being fertility? -No, Mystra is only worshipped in Faerûn. Kara-Tur has the Celestial Bureaucracy, and Maztica has Qotal as the deity of Pluma magic, and Zaltec as the deity of Hishna magic. |
| clevercommie02-08-07, 04:19 PM | LK, you stated that Corellon was more powerful than Mystra. I would like to agree with you, but I would also like to know your reasoning. I was under the impression that she was ranked higher than Corellon in the sourcebooks. Is it because of his stats, or because of his portfolio? Or that he is the undisputed heavy weight of his pantheon. He happens to be my prefered power, I would appreciated your explanation. |
| Lord Karsus02-08-07, 05:42 PM | LK, you stated that Corellon was more powerful than Mystra. I would like to agree with you, but I would also like to know your reasoning. I was under the impression that she was ranked higher than Corellon in the sourcebooks. Is it because of his stats, or because of his portfolio? Or that he is the undisputed heavy weight of his pantheon. He happens to be my prefered power, I would appreciated your explanation. -They are both Greater Deities, Mystra, and Corellon Larethian. Faiths and Pantheons gives Mystra a DR, but it does not give Corellon Larethian, or any of the Demihuman deities, Divine Rankings. I think it is safe to say that Corellon Larethian has far more worshippers than Mystra. For the most part, every Elf that exists on Faerûn, with the exception of the Drow, and the Fey'ri, pay lip service to him, at least. Most Elves are a little more devout than just minor lip service. Not every Human being pays lip service to Mystra. -If you still follow the 2e ways, Corellon Larethian is a multispheric deity. In other words, Elves from Realmspace worship him, Elves from Krynnspace worship him, Elves from Grayspace worship him, and so on. -Corellon is also has a lot of other portfilios, besides for magic. His portfolios are Magic, Music, Arts, Crafts, War, Elves, Poetry, Bards, and Warriors. Of his eight portfolios, only one is related to magic. Compare to Mystra, who only has Magic, Spells and the Weave. Corellon has diversity. Mutual funds always do better than straight stocks, because they have diversity. -And, I am also biased against Mystra. I simply like Elves. :) |
| Terraneaux02-09-07, 05:01 AM | Corellon Larethian has Divine Initiative. Corellon Larethian is more powerful than her just because of that... Anyway, it seems to me that mystra shouldn't be so much of a god, as more of an ephemeral philosophy/concept. Giving her a face and a name (Midnight) and making her play favorites with certain mortals is problematic, mostly because she apparently has power over the very abilities of a god's clerics to cast spells. |
| Boda02-09-07, 08:46 AM | I think the question that defines it is: Is magic more powerful them everything else? Your point Nethermage, is very accurate and i agreed. Corellon is more powerful than mystra, for he is the deity of elvenkind, in the broad sense, since all the think that elfs hold in higher importance are in his portfolio. The same should happen with moradin, annam, yondalla, etc. THIS OF COURSE; IF YOU FOLLOW THE RULE THAT DIVINE POWER IS A DIRECT CONSEQUENCE OF MORTAL WORSHIP! Rumors say that some(the almighty M) cheat! |
| Lord Karsus02-09-07, 01:59 PM | THIS OF COURSE; IF YOU FOLLOW THE RULE THAT DIVINE POWER IS A DIRECT CONSEQUENCE OF MORTAL WORSHIP! -Mortal worship is only one part of the equation that creates divine power. Other factors include the fervor of their prayers, and the actual portfolios themselves. A portfolio like Death is going to weigh more heavily than a minor portfolio, like Siamorphe's Nobility portfolio. |
| Zevox02-09-07, 05:21 PM | Is it accurate to think of the weave as a power grid for magic throughout the realms. Using that analogy, Mystra becomes the "power company" so anyone or anything that uses magic pays into her divinity. So the Chosen of Mystra are like . . . substations or magical capacitors? Thats actually a fairly good way of looking at it as far as the Weave goes, though I don't think the analogy works for Mystra or the Chosen. The mental image of Elminster in a hard hat giving grief to a wizard for not paying his magic bill on time was just priceless... :D Now that is certainly true. Made me smile right there :D . Finger of death controls life or death? Why? Because it causes death? So does disintegrate, or a spear in the heart! Because it causes death directly, not through some medium such as destruction of the body or damaging the heart. It is simple and instantaneous control of the force of death to end a life. Is mystra the deity of magic in Kara-tur? Maztica? Is she worshiped anywhere else other than FR? If she is, for being magic, cant chauntea also be, for being fertility? Nope - the Faerûnian Pantheon is only worshiped in Faerûn, not other continents. The fact that she is the Weave, and therefor the source of magic, throughout Toril though remains, whether she is worshiped in those regions or not. The tale of creation of aber toril, as i read it, says that the sisters(selune & shar) created chauntea and then, selune ignited the sun, and then shar attacked her, AND THEN, in the middle of the combat, due to a action of selune the weave was created(mystril). So Chauntea doesnt need the weave. Being aber-toril, this also means that exisistence, in the broad sense, doesnt need magic. But the weave surely needs life (as a product of fertility), to have a purpose. I believe we already established that my memory was faulty on the connection between the Weave and life on Toril. But as for the Weave "needing life" and therefore Chauntea, first note that Chauntea is not in any way the incarnation of life, nor does she possess that portfolio. She is Abeir-Toril, and Goddess of Agriculture (and a number of other related things). The Weave is not limited to that, and would exist even without it, and there are living beings outside of Toril (again, on Selûne and her Tears I believe I've heard, plus other planets throughout Realmsspace) who require it for magic. And in any event, even if there were no one around to use the Weave, it would still be a source of power for Mystra, since its power is not dependent on mortals. So you believe that nature has no power? Surely it must have, or their wouldnt be any spellcasters! Um, what? How on earth do you come to that conclusion? Spellcasters draw either from the Weave directly (Arcane casters) or from the Weave via the power of the Gods (Divine casters). Nature plays no role in that. So FR religious system is the only one ever, to place a deity of magic (and only magic) as it's most likely powerful member. Very curious cultural inovation. Um, its not a cultural innovation. The Gods don't depend entirely on mortal belief to determine what they are - if that were true, they couldn't have existed before mortals. Mystra is the Faerûnian Pantheon's most powerful member because of the Weave, not mortal culture. I think the question that defines it is: Is magic more powerful them everything else? Pretty much, yeah. THIS OF COURSE; IF YOU FOLLOW THE RULE THAT DIVINE POWER IS A DIRECT CONSEQUENCE OF MORTAL WORSHIP! As LK said, mortal worship is only part of a Deity's power. For instance, Lolth's recent debacle resulted in her rising in power, yet one of its consequences was the death of many Drow while she was silent. If mortal worship were the only source, she would have lost power; instead, whatever she did while silent caused a net gain in spite of the worship loss. Points directly to that conclusion, no? Zevox |
| Stigger02-09-07, 06:35 PM | I don't think there could possibly be some absolute formula for divine power really... guidelines, certainly, but I think that the whole relying on numbers of worshippers thing was related more in their ability to sense and influence the world in a direct manner, or if something impacted directly upon their portfolio, more than a you must have x number of worshippers to be a y ranked diety sort of arrangement. That would just lead to an endless progression of holy wars being fought, not something I can see Ao really encouraging since it would definitely distract the powers from their duties. |
| clevercommie02-09-07, 07:10 PM | So since the deities of the dwarves and elves (at least Corellon and Moradin), tend to carried between spheres of existance, would the Dwarf and Elf Pantheons automatically be stronger than their human contemporaries based solely on the real estate they cover? Beneath overgod status who would you say is the single most powerful deity in the realms? |
| Boda02-09-07, 07:37 PM | But before someone learns magic, it's still a living being, so a product of fertility. Life produces many living beings, Some are spellcasters, others are not. True that the weave doesnt need life to exist, but what would be it's purpose without it? Something that just is? A portfolio is only as important as mortals make of it. Take Gond, per example, on Earth,Gond would be an Overgod, since he is craft,artifice and the closest thing to science there is. But since on FR mortals dont give that much importance to it, so it doesnt has that importance. The culture of a people is what defines the importance of a concept. Talos is only a GD because he represents the destruction of crops and homes, just like Zeus in ancient greece. You seem to disregard the importance of concepts like fertility, death, hate, in relation to magic. Their importance may not be as obvious as magic, but their are fundemental to existance. If there is no hostility in the world, why would someone craft a offensive spell? If there is no fertility, i assume your mages wouldnt have a society in witch to grow up in to. Nature has no power.-->if you are a product of nature, how can you doubt it's power?! |
| Lord Karsus02-09-07, 11:10 PM | So since the deities of the dwarves and elves (at least Corellon and Moradin), tend to carried between spheres of existance, would the Dwarf and Elf Pantheons automatically be stronger than their human contemporaries based solely on the real estate they cover? Beneath overgod status who would you say is the single most powerful deity in the realms? -In 2e, you'd be completely correct. The Corellon Larethain worshipped in Grayspace was the same Corellon Larethian worshipped in Realmspace, Krynnspace, and so on. But, 3e has "severed the ties" between the different Corellon Larethians, so now they are all technically different beings. Or, at least, what happens in one entity in one sphere has no effect on another entity in another sphere. -But, one of the reasons why the Seldarine, or the Moradinsemmon (Sp?) were so powerful was because they reached a "wide audience" because they were multispheric deities. -As for who the most powerful deity is...There are too many factors to give an accurate answer. Is power defined by DR? Underlings? Allies? Portfolio(s)? Worshippers? You get the point...;) |
| ZolDarklock02-09-07, 11:35 PM | Quote: In 2e, you'd be completely correct. The Corellon Larethain worshipped in Grayspace was the same Corellon Larethian worshipped in Realmspace, Krynnspace, and so on. But, 3e has "severed the ties" between the different Corellon Larethians, so now they are all technically different beings. Or, at least, what happens in one entity in one sphere has no effect on another entity in another sphere. then explain the Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons |
| Lord Karsus02-09-07, 11:40 PM | then explain the Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons -Specifically, what are you looking for? You know, they are only worshipped on Faerûn, so, although interlopers, they are not multispheric deities. The Egypt and Babylonia that the Untheric and Mulhorandi Pantheons came from no longer exist. Thus, they are only worshipped in Realmspace. |
| Zevox02-10-07, 01:18 AM | But before someone learns magic, it's still a living being, so a product of fertility. Life produces many living beings, Some are spellcasters, others are not. First off, I think you're using Chauntea's Fertility portfolio in too general a sense. Note the other portfolios she has - shes very focused on agriculture, not on all things capable of growth (many of those fall under the purview of other nature Deities). Thats what that portfolio refers to with her - the fertility of the fields. Second, living beings existing doesn't give any inherent power to nature. Why should it? Theres no inherent power in living beings (unless they're psionically gifted or sorcerers, but those are another story and not linked to nature either); they need to learn and develop talents to gain such. Plus life doesn't originate with nature anyway - the most essential component of it, the soul, is produced on the positive energy plane (if my memory of something Shemeska said is right). True that the weave doesnt need life to exist, but what would be it's purpose without it? Something that just is? Quick repeat: life != nature != Chauntea. Toril could disappear and life would still go on on the prime, giving the Weave a purpose. All life could vanish from the Prime and it would still serve the purpose of empowering Mystra and allowing Outsiders who came to the Prime to cast there (and you can bet that with no one occupying that Plane some outsiders or another would claim it eventually). A portfolio is only as important as mortals make of it. It is only as important to mortals as they make it. It is as important to existence as a whole as it always is. And the Gods don't totally depend on the importance of their portfolios to either for their power to begin with; those are but parts of it. Take Gond, per example, on Earth,Gond would be an Overgod, since he is craft,artifice and the closest thing to science there is. Overgod? I doubt he'd reach quite that height, but he would receive a sufficient worshiper boost (if he could get folks to believe he existed) to become a Greater God, surely. But then, you're comparing the worshiper base of one continent to that of an entire planet. Talos is only a GD because he represents the destruction of crops and homes, just like Zeus in ancient greece. Actually, hes a Greater Deity mostly because of how many prayers he gets by folks requesting he stave off his forces from them (these aren't devoted worshipers, just those sending casual prayers to a God who holds their life in his hands essentially). Hes primarily worshiped out of fear, which his Clerics encourage - he may well be more feared than any other evil Deity in Faerûn. Oh, that and his little tricks with raising mortals to divinity every now and then only to force them to deplete themselves in his service then rob them of their power. You seem to disregard the importance of concepts like fertility, death, hate, in relation to magic. Their importance may not be as obvious as magic, but their are fundemental to existance. Indeed (except for hate - thats an emotion, not a fundamental piece of existence), which is part of the reason why the Gods holding those portfolios are Greater Gods. They do not grant as much power inherently as the Weave, however, which is itself power incarnate. Nature has no power.-->if you are a product of nature, how can you doubt it's power?! Because, as I said, living beings existing doesn't give nature power. Nature is an abstract, like justice or loyalty. The things we associate with it in some cases have power of their own, like a volcano or a lightning storm, but nature in itself is a powerless idea. Edit: I think I should perhaps point out though that my original reason for noting that point was that its impossible for mortal Druids and Rangers to get power from nature in the Realms. They need to get it from a God. Given that, it seems inescapable that nature would have no power inherent to it that could possibly matter to a God, no? Zevox |
| Boda02-10-07, 10:01 AM | So anyone that doesnt use the weave has no power? Rightttt.... So nature has no power.The act of creation doesnt require power. A non-magical being cant never destroy a spellcaster. So by your reasoning, a political speech, useable fertile land, technological advance has no power? Smokepowder has no power, but how can something that has no power concern leader(puppets of weave users) and spellcasters all over Faerun? And i tought that power assumed many shapes... how silly of me. Without the weave, there wouldnt be an existance.-Do you think the pope could ressurected a relative of mine? As the highest priest in a religion, he could use the weave to...do magic things! I bet that in the Nation might thread, your choices would go to Thay, Halrruaa, Shade, Deep Imaskar. Places like Sembia, Amn, Damarra are clearly powerless. |
| Stigger02-10-07, 03:10 PM | You're going too far with the conclusions there Boda. Nature has power, but remember that the portfolio is somewhat split in a lot of ways between Chauntea, Silvanus, Mielikki, and possibly a few others locally. Magic itself is concentrated in Mystra through the Weave, despite having various aspects of magic spread throughout a few other divine portfolios. No one holds the vast 'nature' portfolio per se, while Mystra holds the vast encompassing that is the Weave... See the difference there? |
| Boda02-11-07, 09:36 AM | ok, but by that reasoning, waukeen has all the power of currency. Shouldnt she a little more powerful? I just used chauntea to make a point. A vastly more encompasing portfolio should grant more power. To ancient greeks, Zeus was the head of the phanteon not just for convinience but because he was the weather god(could destroy crops, homes,etc). Since they placed more importance in it, he gained more worship and respect from it. Death is in itself a more important portfolio than magic. Therefore, it should be more powerful. As i say before, there can be a world without magic, not so without other specific portfolios. So i stand by: the worship of mystra on earth is what makes her this powerful. |
| Red_Wizard02-11-07, 11:59 AM | It's not her portfolio that makes her more powerful, it is the fact she is the incarnation of the weave. The weave is what fuels much of the divine power of the gods, indirectly through the spells they grant their followers. Othere portfolios may indeed be more or less powerful, but it is that governing force that gives her the edge in the pantheon. |
| Stigger02-11-07, 01:01 PM | Clerics need the weave to cast spells, same as arcane casters... no weave, no spells, not much point to clerics of any faith beyond people in fancy robes spouting meaningless words that they can't back up with displays of divine favor more often than not. Hence... Mystra does tend to kinda trump everyone since they do pretty much depend on her to enable them to grant spells and keep their faithful alive when things go badly, for the most part anyway. |
| Werner02-11-07, 05:34 PM | Sephris Dwendon...chosen of oghma,where can i find something about him? |
| Lord Karsus02-11-07, 06:35 PM | Sephris Dwendon...chosen of oghma,where can i find something about him? -The Erevis Cale Trilogy, Books I and II, mostly. |
| Zevox02-12-07, 09:09 PM | So anyone that doesnt use the weave has no power? Not what I said. So nature has no power. Correct. The act of creation doesnt require power. Depends on what kind of creation you're talking about. Creating something out of thin air? You bet that requires power. Painting a picture? No, no power required. Chiseling a sculpture? Requires strength of arm, but not raw power. Perhaps it should be noted that I'm referring to raw power here. Not power in the subjective "anything that can cause something to change/happen" power, or even the scientific definition of it, but raw energy that a divine being would care about. A non-magical being cant never destroy a spellcaster. Not even remotely related to what I said. So by your reasoning, a political speech, useable fertile land, technological advance has no power? They have no raw power, no. The technology could harness said power in theory, but does not inherently possess it. The political speech has no raw power, and only has any perceived power if people choose to listen to it and are persuaded by it. Smokepowder has no power, Actually, in the Realms, smokepowder is a magical substance; so yes, in a way it does (personally, I don't like smokepowder, and house rule it out of my games, but thats a tangent matter). Substitute our gunpowder, and no, it has no inherent raw power. The chemical reactions it produces do create such power, albeit on a small scale without a lot of it, and for only a brief time. I bet that in the Nation might thread, your choices would go to Thay, Halrruaa, Shade, Deep Imaskar. Places like Sembia, Amn, Damarra are clearly powerless. I had expected it wouldn't need clarification given that this discussion has thus far been about where Deities get their power, but as I said above, I have been referring to raw power in particular, the type a Deity could actually draw from. Not physical or subjective power mortals would care about. ok, but by that reasoning, waukeen has all the power of currency. Shouldnt she a little more powerful? See above: this is subjective power with no impact on a Deity's raw or divine power. Only mortals and some outsiders care about currency, so its power is subjective, and exists only to those who care about it. I just used chauntea to make a point. A vastly more encompasing portfolio should grant more power. And it does, which is in part why Chauntea, Kelemvor, etc are Greater Gods. The Weave is more than a portfolio, however; it is literally a physical (in the loosest sense of the term) thing which is a source of raw power beyond what just the portfolio grants. To ancient greeks, Zeus was the head of the phanteon not just for convinience but because he was the weather god(could destroy crops, homes,etc). Since they placed more importance in it, he gained more worship and respect from it. Ancient real world pantheons do not equate to D&D or FR ones. One could say that Talos is similar to Zeus in this respect (in that because his portfolios are thus he is feared and worshiped far and wide, and is thus a Greater God), but conventions for real-world pantheons, which did not include many things that D&D or FR ones do (such as our magic systems), cannot be applied directly to D&D or FR ones as though there were no difference. Death is in itself a more important portfolio than magic. Therefore, it should be more powerful. As i say before, there can be a world without magic, not so without other specific portfolios. As before, this is part of why Kelemvor is a Greater Deity (do you honestly think he gets a lot of devoted worshipers out of those two portfolios of his? One of them is "the dead" after all). But see above for the repeated explanation of why being the Weave benefits Mystra beyond just the importance of the portfolio to mortals. Zevox |
| Soltares02-12-07, 10:36 PM | Chauntea vs. Mystra, who'se (portfolio) is bigger? Magic spells can destroy Life (by casting death spells). Living beings can destroy Magic (by creating Dead Magic zones). Sounds like a draw to me, hopefully the two goddesses never feel a need to annhilate the Realms settling this prickly theological issue. |
| Lord Karsus02-12-07, 10:53 PM | Chauntea vs. Mystra, who'se (portfolio) is bigger? Magic spells can destroy Life (by casting death spells). Living beings can destroy Magic (by creating Dead Magic zones). Sounds like a draw to me, hopefully the two goddesses never feel a need to annhilate the Realms settling this prickly theological issue. -Mystra would have the edge, because, as Zevox previously pointed out, the Weave is utilized on other places, such as the Tears of Selûne, where Chauntea has no real pull (Figurativley, of course, and not literally). |
| Boda02-14-07, 08:57 AM | Perception shapes reality. Obviously, if push came to shove between them, i would bet my money on mystra, because just because chantea has a slightly higher divine rank, she's not has combat orientated has mystra. But then again why would they fight?! In the greek pantheon, there was a deity of magic, Hecate. So ancient greeks belived in magic, they just didnt give it that much importance. So ok, the weave is the mightiest portfolio of all. Maybe that's why mystra is generally a pretty dumb deity. To balance her power. After all, how many GD got themselves killed(2 times at least)? Still there is no balance, with or without chosen, because the ratio of good and evil deities in the FR human pantheon is clearly tipped to the good side. Generally, when there's more good deities in a said pantheon than evil deities, it's assumed that the evil deities are personally more powerful than their enemies, but since evil does not work well with others, and good does, problem solved. But hey, if there more good deities and their also more powerful, fine. Just make them dumb! |
| GothicDan02-14-07, 09:43 AM | It is the nature of evil to strike out against others, regardless of alignment; the same is not true of good, and only sometimes neutrals. It's not the numbers of deities of each alignment that you have to look at, as much as influence over Faerun. That would equate, roughly (and one can argue), to the Greater Gods. These Gods are: Evil: Shar, Talos, Cyric, Bane Neutral: Oghma, Silvanus, Kelemvor, Tempus, Akadi, Kossuth, Grumbar, Istishia Good: Chauntea, Sune, Lathander, Mystra, Tyr For the most part, I'd say that things are balanced. There may be a very little bit on the 'good' side of things, but that's GOOD. As you said, perceptions shape reality, and the majority of people would tend towards good, in most circumstances, at least. If evil and good were perfectly balanced, evil would strike out over and over preemptively, and Faerun would be one of the worlds on the edge of disaster all the time. While Dragonlance still is one of my favorite settings, the Fourth Age kind of was 'the end' of it for me, for that reason. It was often hard to imagine someone... Well, LIVING in Ansalon; to actually have cultures thrive and grow and expand, what with all of the massive wars. Faerun is more realistically balanced, I think. Think of it this way: you have a lion and a zebra. Both have about equal potential to kill each other in a one on one fight - and so, lions rarely attack zebras by themselves. But in those situations when the lions do have more power than the zebras - specifically, when they manage to isolate one - they attack immediately, and the victory point goes to the lions. The zebras fight back when they must, but they don't actively seek out and hunt the lions. That would make THEM the predators, not the prey. Replace 'predator' with 'evil' and 'prey' with 'good' in that analogy. It may not be a perfect one to make, but I'm sure Malar would like it. |
| BrennonGoldeye02-14-07, 09:52 AM | Ao is not all powerful, if any of the gods of Toril did anything that might put the multiverse in any kind of chaos or jeopardy, other overgod's or even more powerful beings would step in and prevent such acts, even if this means giving Ao himself an beating for allowing it to happen Since the God's of the FR are not capable of affecting the multiverse as a whole this isn't an appropriate argument. The point of AO is keeping this specific CS in balance. Mystra, Bane, Tempus, and Talos have no effect upon anything outside the FR cosmology. This is AO's playground, and the God's know it all to well. If all what has been said about the power of Mystra here is correct, then what about Thoth, to me he is a much better god of magic, since he original came to Toril by following his enslaved followers here, he in his own sphere must have been an overgod like power, now that he can truly stretch his full divine on Toril now, what stops him from being more powerful than any god on Toril now, or considering he is worshipped on multiple spheres, as the god of magic, would his power even exceed Ao's ??? Thoth, just like Ptah, was from an earlier pantheon. The mythos of egypt deal with their own powers, and Thoth was never ranked above the Pharonic Pantheons leader. The Egyptians may not have realized it, but their Gods were obviously linked to worship. Re and Horus anybody? Aton? Being older in no way makes you more powerful, just wiser(in most cases). The tale of creation of aber toril, as i read it, says that the sisters(selune & shar) created chauntea and then, selune ignited the sun, and then shar attacked her, AND THEN, in the middle of the combat, due to a action of selune the weave was created(mystril). So Chauntea doesnt need the weave. Being aber-toril, this also means that exisistence, in the broad sense, doesnt need magic. But the weave surely needs life (as a product of fertility), to have a purpose. I have no doubt that Chauntea would be just fine, possibly even more than fine, without Mystra. Mystra would be screwed without Chauntea. This of course would leave us on Terra, not Aber-Toril.;) So you believe that nature has no power? Surely it must have, or their wouldnt be any spellcasters! Nature has great power, it just doesn't use it. How could it? Chauntea(all things are part and parcel of Me) is in the same boat as Mystra(all magic is part and parcel of Me). So FR religious system is the only one ever, to place a deity of magic (and only magic) as it's most likely powerful member. Very curious cultural inovation. Far from the first, since lack of magic leads to lack of active Dieties. Hmm, seems the Diety of Magic is the second most important in any CS. Right after the Diety of nature. -Thoth originally came from Earth. Obviously, we know that magic isn't real here. But, back in the times of the Ancient Egyptians, they didn't believe Thoth to be the ultimate power in their pantheon. Going my that logic, Horus-Re would be the most powerful deity, since he did exactly what Thoth did, but he also has Thoth in a subservient position. -The reason why Mystra is so strong is not because she is the deity of magic. It is because she is the Weave incarnate. No matter how many other deities of magic there are in Faerûn, and the surrounding continents, Mystra will always be stonger than them (concerning magic anyway. Corellon Larethian, for instance, is stronger than mystra, but due to other reasons) because she is the Weave itself, and everyone taps into it, and thus, her. LK, have I ever spoken to you of Raw Magic?;) Anyway, it seems to me that mystra shouldn't be so much of a god, as more of an ephemeral philosophy/concept. Giving her a face and a name (Midnight) and making her play favorites with certain mortals is problematic, mostly because she apparently has power over the very abilities of a god's clerics to cast spells. Something in me says She is exactly that. At least to those who think of magic as ephemeral. If one of Her followers would lose faith if the knew she had a persona I have no doubt She would never show that persona to him. Just because She(I would like to note that this being wasn't Midnight, She was Mystra, who at Her point of acension was a drooling schitzophrenic drowning in the Chaos of existence) made out with El doesn't mean She gets all naughty with anybody capable of a cantrip. Part of being a God is knowing when to do what. |
| Lord Karsus02-14-07, 10:12 AM | LK, have I ever spoken to you of Raw Magic?;) -Do tell. |
| Boda02-14-07, 12:13 PM | I was being ironic Brennon. Lions and are not in even footing. In a fight, a zebra may kill a lion, but a lion will kill a zebra. Besides, lions fight each other to the dead sometimes. When do zebras do that? Zebras live in groups, so they can watch each others backs. Lions will not cooperate with each other for anything than hunt. Are you saying that you truly belive that lions and zebras are even in a fight?! By the way, you only accounted greater deities for balance of cood, evil and neutral. Why? Faerunian pantheon: Neutral-23 Evil-14 Good-20 |
| BrennonGoldeye02-14-07, 01:54 PM | When do zebras do that? When they are interested in mates, same as lions... Zebras live in groups, so they can watch each others backs. As do lions. Lions will not cooperate with each other for anything than hunt. Lion groups are made up of primarilly related females(sisters, aunts, neices, and even sister-in-laws occasionally) who have orbiting groups of males who come and go. A single lioness is all but incapable of catching any prey that could feed the pride. It takes the group. That group also needs someone to watch(and nurse) any kids. Note that all female lions can lactate as long as one of them is a mom. Are you saying that you truly belive that lions and zebras are even in a fight?! Boda, one pride of lions is powerless against one herd of zebra, so yes, I am saying they are on even ground. Watch the Natl Geo channel, or possibly Animal Planet. Chauntea(in Her guise as Gia) seems to agree.;) |
| Derren S.02-14-07, 02:37 PM | Really, the reason Mystra is so powerful is because Ed wants her to be. It doesn't make sense, and essentially she doesn't play by the same rules as the other deities because he really, really likes his wizards and thinks that if they worship a god it should be some kind of ubergod. So true. Maybe not because Ed likes her so much but someone in charge wants Mystra to be uber. Mystra simply makes no sense. She doesn't have enough worship for her DvR and the Weave isn't that powerful to make her so uber. It isn't even the source of magic but only a conduit to make magic use safe for mortals. |
| BrennonGoldeye02-14-07, 03:00 PM | Ok, maybe our realms are different. Mine is filled with a cubic arseload of magic. Every time any of that art, be it arcane or divine, is used and enhanced She is both more entwined and more powerful. The action involved in a God's portfolios are what grants It true power, not just the Hail Mystra worship. A war is fought, Tempus gains intelligence. A lie is spoken, Cyric digs in. An elf is born, Correlon swells. A spell is cast, Mystra smiles. Then again in war magic is used, lies are often hidden by magic, and elven childbirth is eased by healing magic. Which of the four God's gained the most total power? Does this make any sense?:) |
| Zevox02-14-07, 03:02 PM | In the greek pantheon, there was a deity of magic, Hecate. So ancient greeks belived in magic, they just didnt give it that much importance. True, but again, real-world pantheons have little to do with D&D or FR ones. The Greeks made up their Deities based on their beliefs. With FR, you're talking about a place where the Deities demonstrably exist as separate entities - they are not wholly dependent on what mortals believe about them, and are only dependent on it at all insofar as that generates more worship for them, which as I've said is only part of the equation for how powerful they are. So ok, the weave is the mightiest portfolio of all. Maybe that's why mystra is generally a pretty dumb deity. To balance her power. After all, how many GD got themselves killed(2 times at least)? Several, but no God has ever died twice (they tend not to come back after the first death to begin with in most cases - Bane is the only I can think of who ever has). After all, Mystryl and Mystra were two different Deities, so you're simply looking at the same post having the Deity holding it die twice, not a Deity dying, returning, dying again, and returning again (you really need to stop thinking of them all as the same Deity - they're three different beings). And in any event, as I said before, Mystryl's death was a sacrifice, not her being killed by someone else. The only times any of them displayed stupidity was when the first Mystra got herself killed in a wasted attempt to get back into the planes, and when the second Mystra upset the balance by favoring goodly spellcasters, which she learned from and corrected. Zevox |
| Boda02-14-07, 03:55 PM | But doesnt mystril shared the weave perception ability of the current mystra? Couldnt she sensed Karsus spellcasting 18 days before he actually did it? So not stop it? So 1ª deity of magic was caught distracted, the second was arrogant, the 3ª is clueless, ... maybe it's a rule? By that reasoning, everytime a spell is casted, mystra boosts up. Ok, but wars are mostly waged without spells. And most lies dont use magic. So everytime it get's dark shar power up!? Nasty! So this way, oghma rules FR, because everytime someone uses a knowledge, oghma turns into Ao. |
| Boda02-14-07, 04:38 PM | You know that a group is more then the sums of it's parts. Just because a group of zebras can protect each other from a pride of lions doesnt mean that a zebra can defeat a lion. The other way around is more likely. A individual Lion doesnt use their full potential agaisnt a zebra most of the times because it knows that it couldnt kill the zebra without getting seriously injured. And a injured predator is a starving predator. So teamwork is a safer route. But geeting back to issue. So good aligned deities are somewhat static?! Lathander doesnt seem so! Or selune! or even mystra(she went to hell to pick up elminster)! So they dont destroy shar because...balance, lack of balls, no spare time? |
| Stigger02-14-07, 05:17 PM | Think of the Cold War... that would probably be the best analogy to the good vs evil divine struggle. Bad guys like Bane come up with some nasty equivalents of nukes, and Mystra deploys the Chosen to be her nukes... same could be said for a lot of other situations. Just look at Lliira... she's very peaceful, non-violent, nearly on the level of Eldath in that respect. Some follower of Loviatar assassinates her favorite priestess, and the next thing you know she's got a martial order starting up to combat those Loviatans... Strike, Counter, rinse, repeat. I doubt the deities want an endless holy war that kills off their followers to such an extreme that they themselves are crippled by it just as badly as their followers were. |
| Zevox02-14-07, 06:58 PM | But doesnt mystril shared the weave perception ability of the current mystra? Couldnt she sensed Karsus spellcasting 18 days before he actually did it? So not stop it? The stats given to the Gods in 3e don't mesh with the lore, plain and simple. Karsus' Folly was a part of the Realms long before the Gods were given stats; its not the fault of the pre-existing lore if those stats don't mesh with it. Mystryl wasn't stupid or distracted, she simply didn't have automatic warning of anything. So yeah, trying to mix recent rules with old lore = bad idea. Just ignore the F&P stats. Zevox |
| Boda02-14-07, 08:06 PM | But being the uber godess of divination should give a head up. So she didnt had perception of weave uses before...so is suposed to be a quasi-overdeity?! Lame! But destroying Shar doesnt start a endless war, just weakens the darkness cause. Besides, who would come to avenge shar? Little lady has no allies. |
| Stigger02-14-07, 09:14 PM | Isn't a question of who would avenge her, it's a question of who would take advantage of a Mystra who had just fought a very nasty, draining battle with another deity... Bane wouldn't exactly hesitate to weaken, if not outright destroy her... and then other deities would come to one side or anothers aid... and so is all that really worth just taking down another deity? |
| BrennonGoldeye02-14-07, 09:48 PM | See Cynosure...:rolleyes: |
| Zevox02-15-07, 12:16 AM | As Stigger said, theres lots of reasons why the goodly Deities wouldn't want to go kill Shar. For starters, they don't know whether they'd be able to win - they have no idea what the full extent of each other's capabilities is, and Deities don't like gambling their lives on single combat. Particularly given what happens to them once they're dead (the whole "statue floating in the astral" thing), and the havoc the sudden loss of them or the God they're attacking if their portfolios aren't immediately taken up could cause to the Prime (you think Mystra or Lathander or any goodly Deity is going to want to take up most of Shar's portfolios? Because if the one who kills her doesn't claim them, you have a problem). Plus even if they survive the fight and have someone to pick up the newly-emptied portfolios, the other evil Deities won't hesitate to pounce on them (Mystra just fought an epic battle with Shar and is in a weakened state? Cue revenge-seeking Cyric - very, very bad situations arise from that). Yeah, like Stigger said, to any goodly Deity, the repercussions of attempting to outright kill one of their evil rivals is generally not worth getting rid of that rival in the first place. Thats why more long-term plans and resistances get set up instead to have their mortal followers oppose them and try to deny them influence over the Prime. And yeah, theres always Ao hanging over their heads, ready to do whatever he has to, even smack them into Time of Troubles take 2 if need be, should they screw up his precious Balance too badly again. Zevox |
| Todesherr02-15-07, 12:42 AM | Even outside of Krynn the balance must be maintained...:globe: |
| Boda02-15-07, 09:08 AM | So what about the Dawn cataclysm thing?wasnt an attempt to clear the evil ones out of the picture? |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-15-07, 12:08 PM | -Exactly. His exact nature has yet to be revealed. Some say because Obould is "He-who-is-Gruumsh", he is one of One-Eye's Chosen. Others say that he just recieved a couple of stat boost from the witchdoctors. Either way...That's why I said, 'possible'. -Obould from the FRCS was written before the events of the Hunter's Blade Trilogy were actually written. Hey can you tell me where in the Underdark accessory do they make reference to the Chosen of Shar? Do you know the page number? Any information you could provide would be greatly appreciated. |
| Stigger02-15-07, 02:44 PM | Well... considering most deities unwillingness to even discuss the Dawn Cataclysm... and their seeming eagerness to just forget the whole thing even happened... I'd say it wasn't exactly something they would relish having repeat itself. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-15-07, 03:34 PM | Hey can you tell me where in the Underdark accessory do they make reference to the Chosen of Shar? Do you know the page number? Any information you could provide would be greatly appreciated. Anyone? Bueller.....Bueller......Anyone.... Anyone?:D |
| Boda02-15-07, 04:08 PM | Because it didnt went their way. When i said that they could finish off shar, i didnt meant mystra vs shar, but mystra+lathander vs shar, with chauntea in backup if talos drops in, tyr for bane and sune for cyric. So this way, no evil deity will have a chance of one-on-one with anybody. That number advantage plus the fact that evil doesnt ally easily tips the scales of any balance. And fighting evil is a good action in itself. |
| GothicDan02-15-07, 06:46 PM | Shar most likely can never be permanently destroyed. She IS Darkness, just as Mystra IS the Weave, Chauntea IS Toril, and Selune IS... Selune. The moon. |
| Stigger02-15-07, 08:25 PM | The point however is why would they weaken themselves fighting something that could very easily cascade into a cataclysmic event? That's a sure way to aggravate Ao, and hence get all the participants royally screwed... |
| Lord Karsus02-15-07, 11:55 PM | Hey can you tell me where in the Underdark accessory do they make reference to the Chosen of Shar? Do you know the page number? Any information you could provide would be greatly appreciated. -Underdark, Pg. 76, in the bottom sidebar, entitled "The Underdark, Maps and the Epic Level Handbook". That's all of the information about Shar's Chosen, so don't read it too quickly. |
| Zevox02-16-07, 01:51 AM | So what about the Dawn cataclysm thing?wasnt an attempt to clear the evil ones out of the picture? To be honest, we really don't have a hell of a lot of information on the Dawn Cataclysm. Its not even certain precisely when it happened or what its exact repercussions were. I believe one source said it was an attempt by Lathander to set himself up as the head of the Faerûnian pantheon, but that may just be me misremembering one of the many speculation threads on the subject that have appeared around here over the past couple years. When i said that they could finish off shar, i didnt meant mystra vs shar, but mystra+lathander vs shar, with chauntea in backup if talos drops in, tyr for bane and sune for cyric. So this way, no evil deity will have a chance of one-on-one with anybody. That number advantage plus the fact that evil doesnt ally easily tips the scales of any balance. And fighting evil is a good action in itself. That might be possible, but again, recall that they don't necessarily know that (none of the Gods know the exact extent of the others' powers - they don't have stat books sitting around). Also note that some of those Deities you're talking about are very pacifistic (do you really think Chauntea is going to fight without someone attacking her first? Or Sune, who is more worried about how her hair looks when the Gods meet in Cynosure than she is about what they're discussing at the time?). And again, they're going to weaken themselves in such a battle, and theres no way that a limited number of goodly Deities is going to get all the evil ones (what of Beshaba, the Gods of Fury who serve Talos, Talona, Mask, Vulomvax, etc etc?), so thats a pretty bad idea from that perspective too. Then again you have the whole portfolios and sudden loss of Deities possessing some of them thing, and the kind of chaos that would cause on Toril, particularly if one of the goodly Deities gets killed during this - this is something that could easily become a cataclysmic event with what that would do. Plus also consider that some of the neutral Deities may have something to say about such a large scale battle - suppose some of them come down alongside the evil ones (Garagos, for instance, might do that), or decide to try and play equalizer and get both sides to cease? Plus again, Ao would give them a serious spanking for screwing with the balance that badly. They all know that, some at least of them even understand or respect or agree with Ao's dictates on that matter and won't likely go against it to begin with. So yeah, its just a bad, improbable idea all around. Zevox |
| BrennonGoldeye02-16-07, 09:55 AM | -Are there any other chosen besides Mystra's, Bane, Deneir, Tiamat, Silvanus, Eldath, Miellikki, Umberlee? Has anybody mentioned that Halisstra Melarn was apparently Eilistraee's Chosen? Just wondering.:) |
| Lord Karsus02-16-07, 12:05 PM | Has anybody mentioned that Halisstra Melarn was apparently Eilistraee's Chosen? Just wondering.:) -Eh, I don't think she was Eilistraee's Chosen. |
| Boda02-16-07, 12:08 PM | So why not quietly finish off a evil at a time? There are more good deities than evil. The good deities are in average more powerful than evil. The good deities want to keep the current situation? They dont want to win(this meaning severely weaken their directly opposite evil portfolio)?So they are planning to overcome evil by slow attrition? But if that's so, then since most good deities are associated with civilazation and stability, wont they eventualy alienate neutrals like silvanus and tempus? Killing Shar doesnt end darkness any more than the dead of mystra ends the weave. Or myrkull. Someone else takes her place(someone weaker and less experienced if the goodies have a say) Fine chauntea and sune wont act, but oghma might oppose cyric and silvanus opposes talos. If evil gods think it's worthwhile, why shouldnt the good think it also? |
| GothicDan02-16-07, 12:10 PM | Why don't they do it? Because they don't want to. Also, Silvanus is Neutral. |
| BrennonGoldeye02-16-07, 03:06 PM | -Eh, I don't think she was Eilistraee's Chosen. Just going by Qilue using the capital C in Sacrifice ot the Widow. Now that I look at it again, it appears Qilue was refering to herself. Sorry.;) |
| Zevox02-16-07, 03:10 PM | So why not quietly finish off a evil at a time? I believe most of what has already been posted about that covers it.... There are more good deities than evil. Which means diddly squat when it comes to divine conflict. The good deities are in average more powerful than evil. But again, they don't know that. The good deities want to keep the current situation? Some of them. Tyr, for instance, seems to understand why Ao's dictates are as they are and agree with them, hence why he tries to act as a fair mediator or master of ceremonies when the Gods meet in Cynosure. This isn't to say he doesn't want those he is opposed to weakened, but he sees why things are as they are now and understands that. Also note that some neutrals would want this as well, like Helm for instance. They dont want to win(this meaning severely weaken their directly opposite evil portfolio)? Most would like to see that happen, but weakening their opposing evil portfolios is far different from wanting the Deity bearing them outright dead. So they are planning to overcome evil by slow attrition? Yup - much better plan than going on a murderin' spree, don't you think? But if that's so, then since most good deities are associated with civilazation and stability, wont they eventualy alienate neutrals like silvanus and tempus? Perhaps, perhaps not. Tempus certainly, if the goodly Deities had their way in the long run, war would cease and he would be useless. Silvanus and other neutral nature Deities, probably not so much, since several goodly Deities would surely maintain ties with him and ensure hes not accidentally worked against (think Chauntea, Mielikki, Lurue, and their like). Killing Shar doesnt end darkness any more than the dead of mystra ends the weave. Or myrkull. Um, Mystryl's death did temporarily destroy the Weave, if you'll recall - it wasn't until she was reincarnated as Mystra that it returned. Similarly, when Cyric lost the Death and The Dead portfolios but before Kelemvor picked them up, nobody on the Prime could die. The ToT deaths were another matter entirely, since Ao likely had some failsafes in place to prevent the multiverse from falling apart while they were stuck in Avatar form to begin with. So yes, destroy the Deity with those portfolios and you wreak havoc with them on the Prime until someone else takes them up (and I don't think you're going to find many goodly Deities who want to pick up the Evil ones' portfolios). Fine chauntea and sune wont act, but oghma might oppose cyric and silvanus opposes talos. *sigh* Remember again that the type of event you're talking about could and likely would quickly escalate into an outright catastrophe. Oghma supports Ao's balance, and opposes Cyric because he sees him as a threat to that; but hes not going to go to war with him in the type of battles you're proposing because those themselves would be a threat to that balance. Much the same is true of Silvanus vs Talos. The type of catastrophe such a large scale death of deities would create would be something that no Goodly deity or Neutral one who supports a balance would want to happen. If evil gods think it's worthwhile, why shouldnt the good think it also? Um, what? Even the Evil deities don't go around on divine murdering sprees like this. The last Deicide we had was when Cyric and Mask killed Leira, and even that event greatly upset the other Gods. Zevox |
| Boda02-17-07, 05:49 PM | But if killing shar, would divide her portfolio unto several lesser deities, like mask, hoar, gargauth, tiamat, wouldnt that be a victory to the good guys? Since all the inheritors would be weaker than shar was... |
| Dark Wizard02-17-07, 07:49 PM | Then you just spread her portfolios around. Don't see how that's any better. It gives these other gods an opportunity to grow, and thats just as unpleasant. |
| Zevox02-17-07, 09:33 PM | But if killing shar, would divide her portfolio unto several lesser deities, like mask, hoar, gargauth, tiamat, wouldnt that be a victory to the good guys? Since all the inheritors would be weaker than shar was... Not considering all the side effects and repercussions fighting and killing her would have, no. Particularly considering theres no guarantee those Deities will be the ones grabbing up her portfolios and not someone stronger, like Cyric or Bane, grabbing all of her power at once. Zevox |
| BrennonGoldeye02-17-07, 10:31 PM | The devil you know...:cip: |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-19-07, 08:55 PM | Chosen of Jergal?!? I have always found this particular God to be extremely interesting. A chosen template created from the current incarnation of Jergal wouldn’t be very interesting, but a Chosen modeled after Jergal when he was a Greater God would be extremely interesting. I personally have never created a template as a DM and wouldn’t know where to start. So I was wondering anyone is willing to create this Chosen? If no one is willing to design it for me any hints or secrets would help. I would rather not have to design the template myself as I’m sure I will muck it up, but if it comes to that I will try. I assume the logical place to begin would be to add some of the aspects of the Chosen of Bane as Jergal once held Bane’s portfolios as well as others. This is indeed a daunting task for me. I mean after all his portfolios included Death, the dead, order in death, funerals and tombs, undeath, the undead, wasting, old age, exhaustion, tyranny, dusk! This is a tough one, but I’m sure the end result would be worth it. I desperately need this for a recurring villain behind the sense mastermind in my Netheril Campaign. Please help!?!?!?!? Anyone?:confused: Thanks All, Lord Necron |
| Lord Karsus02-19-07, 09:06 PM | -I told you: Go to the Post-Your-Own-Chosen Thread. If anyone has already created one, it'd be there. The people who make Chosen Templates post there, so they'd be the ones to ask, for the best results. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-20-07, 10:21 AM | -I told you: Go to the Post-Your-Own-Chosen Thread. If anyone has already created one, it'd be there. The people who make Chosen Templates post there, so they'd be the ones to ask, for the best results. Yeah I tried that. I posted a message on that thread and no one has posted anything since. It seems that no one is reading that particular thread any more. So how would one go about killing Shar exactly? She is one of the two oldest Gods on the planet. Isn’t she some how fundamentally tied to the planet? :confused: |
| Lord Karsus02-20-07, 10:41 AM | Yeah I tried that. I posted a message on that thread and no one has posted anything since. It seems that no one is reading that particular thread any more. -Well, give it time then. People need time to create, if they are indeed helping you out. So how would one go about killing Shar exactly? -The "normal" ways of deicide. She is one of the two oldest Gods on the planet. -If you believe that mythology, then yes. Isn’t she some how fundamentally tied to the planet? :confused: -It's only a hypothesis. Basically, Shar is the incarnation of the void, of nothingness, in Realmspace, just like Selûne is...Selûne, Mystra is the Weave, and Chauntea is Abeir-Toril. It is impossible for utter nothingness not to exist. Thus, Shar must always exist. |
| Boda02-20-07, 11:40 AM | The portfolio must exist, but the holder can change. Mystra proved it so. |
| Stigger02-20-07, 03:14 PM | This is probably true Boda... but she'd be a very hard god to bring down I'd wager... and probably not worth the effort barring some extraordinary circumstance. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-20-07, 08:42 PM | The portfolio must exist, but the holder can change. Mystra proved it so. Boda I think your wrong about Shar. Like LK said she is the embodiment of nothingness and one of the first to fundamental aspects. Light and Dark. Mystryl was created by accident from the divine confict between Shar and Selûne. I don’t think another God can take over Shar’s portfolios without doing significant damage to the whole of Abeir-Toril. Just like destroying Selune would cause something catastrophic to happen to the moon. These gods are intamently tied to the planet. The weave probably existed before Mystryl. After all Selune tore out a piece of herself and flung it at Shar which resulted in Mystryl’s birth. So it can be assumed that one or the other held the weave in trust until the birth of that Goddess. I’m not saying I’m right, but I believe those two Goddesses are two of the three on Toril that can’t be destroyed without the destruction or drastic change of Abeir-Toril.:confused: What do you think? |
| Karsus the Mad02-20-07, 09:03 PM | If the creation myth is true, then the Weave came about the instant Mystryl came about. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-20-07, 09:28 PM | If the creation myth is true, then the Weave came about the instant Mystryl came about. Also could be true. Regardless I don’t think Shar can be destroyed without royally messing up the planet. |
| BrennonGoldeye02-20-07, 09:39 PM | Mystryl was created by accident from the divine confict between Shar and Selûne. I'll let that pass. Opinions are like lollipops.;) The weave probably existed before Mystryl. After all Selune tore out a piece of herself and flung it at Shar which resulted in Mystryl’s birth.So it can be assumed that one or the other held the weave in trust until the birth of that Goddess Assuming again Lucien. Magic(Diefic) existed before Mystryl, not the Weave. As insignificant a difference as that might seem, it's a big one. :) |
| Lord Karsus02-20-07, 10:56 PM | Like LK said she is the embodiment of nothingness and one of the first to fundamental aspects. -I didn't say that she couldn't be destroyed, mind you. |
| Stigger02-21-07, 02:31 AM | One wonders where she comes down on this whole dark matter issue... |
| The Simbul02-21-07, 02:57 AM | Can anybody give an motive for the following: -Why nine chosen of Mystra?Why did Sauron give nine rings of power to nine mortal men? Why did the Elves forge three rings of power for themselves? Why does Zeus have an infininite number of quasi-deity offspring? There is no need for a justification or motivation. This question is premised on the idea that somehow there is some limitation on the number of Chosen a deity may have, or that some standard set of invisible rules locked away somewhere is being violated by Mystra having nine Chosen. The concept of Chosen originated with Mystra. Virtually all of the other "Chosen" in the realms came afterward, usually as a title slapped onto a character with little or no context as to what it originally meant, or perhaps as a way to immunize a fictional character from being casually eliminated in the chaos of a shared world campaign setting. The point is Mystra can have as many Chosen as she wishes, and arguably the same can apply to any Deity.-Why does the chosen status ranks as +4, even when they have different abilities?If you are referring to the different templates for each Deity, it is because it is implied that even though they have difference abilities, the totality of those abilities will not exceed CR +4. Adding a special quality (or a group of them) to an existing character will usually cause a +1 or +2 increase in CR, and sometimes a given ability is so trivial in light of the abilities of the base creature that it wont be worth a CR adjustment at all. It is assumed that all Chosen templates should grant enough abilities to be worth +4 CR.-What's the purpose of a chosen.A Chosen is a person who is given special powers by a deity in exchange for performing a service, usually one that is epic in its danger or scope, or by proving themselves worthy and/or giving themselves over to the deity to serve as their agents in Faerun. -Are there any other chosen besides Mystra's, Bane, Deneir, Tiamat, Silvanus, Eldath, Miellikki, Umberlee?Quite certainly, but not all of them are defined statistically-Are they imortal?Since they do not age...IF they do not age then they are immortal in the sense that they will not die from old age, unless it is otherwise noted (i.e. a Chosen of Bane will not age but does die when he/she reaches his or her maximum age). Not all Chosen of the various deities have this immunity, as not all of them are intended to live forever. |
| Boda02-22-07, 01:26 PM | That's it!!!!! That's mystra's plan all along! If her chosen dont die, and she making new ones, next thing you know FR will be filled with her chosen, kicking all others to death and taking over the World!!!! Bane would be proud... |
| Lord Karsus02-22-07, 01:30 PM | That's it!!!!! That's mystra's plan all along! If her chosen dont die, and she making new ones, next thing you know FR will be filled with her chosen, kicking all others to death and taking over the World!!!! Bane would be proud... -Mystra doesn't make Chosen like King Azoun IV made bastards, mind you. She hasn't made a Chosen in a while, anyway. |
| Stigger02-22-07, 03:56 PM | Just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should or will do something... words Mystra's Chosen tend to live by more often than not. Well, Simbul is a bit fuzzy on it at times really, but still... why would they bother trying to take over the world? What would be the point? |
| Burningspear02-22-07, 04:22 PM | Just digressing from the main topic a bit to make a little point :plotting: Gilgleam Shuruppak (Ex-Chosen since Gilgleam's death) Really silly way to misspell 1 of my favorites, it is supposed to be GILGEAM, not gilgleam.... :tie: |
| Lord Karsus02-22-07, 04:42 PM | Just digressing from the main topic a bit to make a little point :plotting: Really silly way to misspell 1 of my favorites, it is supposed to be GILGEAM, not gilgleam.... :tie: -Let me apologize, then. It is, in fact, 'Gilgeam', and not 'Gilgleam'. :embarrass |
| Burningspear02-22-07, 05:32 PM | Since Cyric is little insane, is there any possibility that he makes shurrupak(the grim reaper) is new chosen? Why would the ex-chosen of Gilgeam, LE diety of tyrrany and opression and rulership, choose a loony like Cyric, CE? as a patron??? |
| Lord Karsus02-22-07, 05:40 PM | Why would the ex-chosen of Gilgeam, LE diety of tyrrany and opression and rulership, choose a loony like Cyric, CE? as a patron??? -The only connection I can make is that the two (seemingly) both enjoy random murder. |
| BrennonGoldeye02-22-07, 08:39 PM | -The only connection I can make is that the two (seemingly) both enjoy random murder. And there both honey roasted macadamia coated nutjobs. Don't forget the nutjob part. It's important. Hmm... Now I'm hungry...:cookie: ....mhmmm hmm, tanks KtM....yummy... |
| Karsus the Mad02-22-07, 10:20 PM | -The only connection I can make is that the two (seemingly) both enjoy random murder. There's nothing like slaughtering those that deserve it!:D Make it painful, and woo hoo! We all need some method of taking out our personal anger (which is often times well founded!) on those that employ us. |
| Dark Wizard02-22-07, 10:20 PM | Why would the ex-chosen of Gilgeam, LE diety of tyrrany and opression and rulership, choose a loony like Cyric, CE? as a patron??? Because Shurrupak saw his girlfriend with Bane, that's why he went evil in the first place. Before that he was an accountant. |
| Burningspear02-22-07, 10:37 PM | -The only connection I can make is that the two (seemingly) both enjoy random murder. Blabla, :tie: does not justify a fervent Lawful worshipper to go looking for a Chaotic patron, not in the slightest.. -Mystra doesn't make Chosen like King Azoun IV made bastards, mind you. LOL... Because Shurrupak saw his girlfriend with Bane, that's why he went evil in the first place. Before that he was an accountant. Nah, hehe, less humor but kudos for trying. |
| Dark Wizard02-22-07, 10:41 PM | Nah, hehe, less humor but kudos for trying. I guess the evil monkey isn't as well known overseas. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-22-07, 11:21 PM | I'll let that pass. Opinions are like lollipops.;) Assuming again Lucien. Magic(Diefic) existed before Mystryl, not the Weave. As insignificant a difference as that might seem, it's a big one. :) The weave Is eternal. Mystra is not. I assume nothing. I know!:P |
| Lord Karsus02-22-07, 11:49 PM | The weave Is eternal. Mystra is not. I assume nothing. I know!:P -Eh, I am going to have to disagree with you on that one. In the minute or so between the death of Mystryl and the "coronation" of Mystra, magic did not exist. The Weave was broken, was non-existent. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-23-07, 02:49 AM | -Eh, I am going to have to disagree with you on that one. In the minute or so between the death of Mystryl and the "coronation" of Mystra, magic did not exist. The Weave was broken, was non-existent. No. The weave’s connection with Fauren was broken, but the Weave did not cease to exist |
| Stigger02-23-07, 03:11 AM | Dunno... Karsus screwed it up pretty badly... think it pretty much got so messed up the entire system scrammed and had to be reformatted after he was done with it... kinda like an arcane version of an uber virus. :D |
| Zevox02-23-07, 03:39 AM | Why does Zeus have an infininite number of quasi-deity offspring? Because the Greek Gods banged anything that moved, and the big guy had to establish himself as leader somehow :P . No. The weave’s connection with Fauren was broken, but the Weave did not cease to exist. Oh no, it ceased to exist. Theres no way to "break" its connection to Faerûn - it permeates the Prime; it either exists and fuels magic or it doesn't. The Goddess of the Weave is the Weave incarnate, fundamentally tied to it. One cannot exist without the other. Just like how without a God of Death, Death ceased to exist for a time (when Cyric lost that Portfolio but before Kelemvor took it up). Thats the way Deific ties to their portfolios work when they're not abstract concepts. Zevox |
| Lord Karsus02-23-07, 12:16 PM | No. The weave’s connection with Fauren was broken, but the Weave did not cease to exist -No, the Weave did not exist. In the time while Mystry was "dead", and Mystra had yet to ascend, the Weave ceased to exist. Mystryl was the Weave, literally, so when she ended herself, she also ended the Weave. When Mystra ascended, she reformed it, with the restrictions that we are all familiar with, now. -The computer didn't need a simply defragmenting. Chunks of it were missing, and the entire thing was replaced. |
| BrennonGoldeye02-23-07, 01:06 PM | No. The weave’s connection with Fauren was broken, but the Weave did not cease to exist :uh-huh: |
| Boda02-23-07, 02:18 PM | But the beuty of mystra plan to rule the world with chosen is that since they dont die and she keeps making new ones, soon faerun wil be filled with chosen, and their semi chosen children, and non chosen are look like wimp in it! Cunning goddess, this mystra. Kelemvor is gonna be sooo ****** went nowbody else in the world dies anymore! |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-23-07, 02:37 PM | -No, the Weave did not exist. In the time while Mystry was "dead", and Mystra had yet to ascend, the Weave ceased to exist. Mystryl was the Weave, literally, so when she ended herself, she also ended the Weave. When Mystra ascended, she reformed it, with the restrictions that we are all familiar with, now. -The computer didn't need a simply defragmenting. Chunks of it were missing, and the entire thing was replaced. Since this Goddess dies more then any other(except Morander. He dies a lot) I would say her ties to the weave are tenuous at best. She is more like guardian of the weave. Oh and she is terrible at her job. I really dislike the Mystra as well. So if someone striped the shadow weave away from Shar she would cease to exist? I don’t buy it |
| Stigger02-23-07, 03:14 PM | Well, from what I recall of things, Mystra is the Weave, Shar just found the Shadow Weave and started playing with it... or something to that effect. But there seems to be a ton of theories out there about that one. I love Mystra personally... and think she's doing a great job given the circumstances. |
| Zevox02-23-07, 10:53 PM | Since this Goddess dies more then any other(except Morander. He dies a lot) I would say her ties to the weave are tenuous at best. She is more like guardian of the weave. Oh and she is terrible at her job. I really dislike the Mystra as well. So if someone striped the shadow weave away from Shar she would cease to exist? I don’t buy it Reiterating: None of the Goddesses of the Weave ever died more than once. They are three separate individuals - Mystryl, Mystra, and Midnight. And the number of times the portfolio has changed hands has no effect on the fact that being Goddess of the Weave makes her the incarnation of the Weave itself. The Death portfolio has changed hands more times than the Weave (Jergal => Bhaal => Cyric => Kelemvor), yet Death's existence is still tied to the fact that there is a God of Death. Thats not something that changes, ever. Note that Shar does not possess the Shadow Weave portfolio, and thus does not posses the same connection to it that Mystra does to the Weave. Its not even certain if Shar created the Shadow Weave, or is just exercising her control over something she found. Zevox |
| Lord Karsus02-23-07, 11:46 PM | I would say her ties to the weave are tenuous at best. She is more like guardian of the weave. -Well, you are free to believe what you want, but Mystra/Mystryl is/was the Weave. So if someone striped the shadow weave away from Shar she would cease to exist? -No, because Shar is merely the steward, or the guardian of the Shadow Weave. She, herself, is not the Shadow Weave, like Mystra is the Weave. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-24-07, 03:58 AM | Reiterating: None of the Goddesses of the Weave ever died more than once. They are three separate individuals - Mystryl, Mystra, and Midnight. And the number of times the portfolio has changed hands has no effect on the fact that being Goddess of the Weave makes her the incarnation of the Weave itself. The Death portfolio has changed hands more times than the Weave (Jergal => Bhaal => Cyric => Kelemvor), yet Death's existence is still tied to the fact that there is a God of Death. Thats not something that changes, ever. Note that Shar does not possess the Shadow Weave portfolio, and thus does not posses the same connection to it that Mystra does to the Weave. Its not even certain if Shar created the Shadow Weave, or is just exercising her control over something she found. Zevox (Jergal => Bhaal => Cyric => Kelemvor)? You mean (Jergal => Myrkul => Cyric => Kelemvor)? Correct? Bhaal never ruled the Bone Castle. I think Mystra is just the guardian of the Weave. She just wants us to believe she is the weave. Propaganda. History shows she is not the weave. Mystryl might have been the weave, but her successors no they just inherited the duties of the deceased Goddess. |
| BrennonGoldeye02-24-07, 08:44 AM | LLKN- You are a grade A dufus. should I state it again? Read the posts. Think about the posts. Respond with your brain. This often means not responding. Read what you type. Then, if needed, have an adult read it. Then post.. :cip: |
| GothicDan02-24-07, 09:20 AM | (Jergal => Bhaal => Cyric => Kelemvor)? You mean (Jergal => Myrkul => Cyric => Kelemvor)? Correct? Bhaal never ruled the Bone Castle. The Lord of the Dead ruled the Bone Castle. Not the Lord of Death. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-24-07, 02:39 PM | The Lord of the Dead ruled the Bone Castle. Not the Lord of Death. That’s why I was correcting him. If you had read the thread you would have noticed. Bhaal was the Lord of Murder. So he must be talking about the Dead portfolio. As Jergal=Myrkul=Cyric=Kelemvor was the holder of the portfolio of death. Bhaal and Cyric are purveyors of Murder. IE unnatural death! So if you open your Faiths and Pantheons Campaign Accessory you will see that my correction was right with my correction. Have your ducks in a row before you correct others. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-24-07, 02:44 PM | LLKN- You are a grade A dufus. should I state it again? Read the posts. Think about the posts. Respond with your brain. This often means not responding. Read what you type. Then, if needed, have an adult read it. Then post.. :cip: Your immaturity is extremely annoying. If you have nothing to say except insults perhaps you should take your own advice and Not Respond! Opinions are allowed. If you don’t agree with someone’s opinion that is fine! However keep the name calling to a minimum as it makes all your future comments less credible. This is a friendly warning to behave yourself. |
| Zevox02-24-07, 04:29 PM | (Jergal => Bhaal => Cyric => Kelemvor)? You mean (Jergal => Myrkul => Cyric => Kelemvor)? Correct? Bhaal never ruled the Bone Castle. As Dan said, Myrkul was God of The Dead, not Death (there is a difference - The Dead are the souls that of those that have died, Death is the ending of life). Bhaal was the God of Death. He happened to be especially focused on violent death, such as with assassinations, but he was God of Death as a whole. I think Mystra is just the guardian of the Weave. She just wants us to believe she is the weave. Propaganda. History shows she is not the weave. Mystryl might have been the weave, but her successors no they just inherited the duties of the deceased Goddess. You're welcome to believe what you want, but the lore and history of the Realms says you're wrong. Here, let me give you one last effort at convincing you: page 103 of Lost Empires of Faerûn mentions the events of Mystryl's death as such: [Mystryl's] death negated magic throughout Faerûn, sending the flying cities crashing to the ground, and also severed her link to Karsus, petrifying his body. Almost immediately, the Goddess was reincarnated as Mystra, and she recreated the Weave in time to save three cities of High Netheril that had not yet hit the ground. The new Weave had stricter spellcasting requirements that prevented the excesses of the Netherese. Right there, you have two blunt statements that the Weave after Mystryl's death is new and recreated, not the same as the one from before it, which means as we've been saying this whole time that Mystyl's death meant no more Weave (this being the source of the negation of magic when it happened). If that doesn't convince you, I don't know what will, so I'm done trying to hammer home that point. Zevox |
| Lord Karsus02-24-07, 06:00 PM | Opinions are allowed. -His opinion is that you are a Grade 'A' Doofus. ;) You're welcome to believe what you want, but the lore and history of the Realms says you're wrong. Here, let me give you one last effort at convincing you: page 103 of Lost Empires of Faerûn mentions the events of Mystryl's death as such: -Thank you. I was just about to go there myself. |
| Stigger02-24-07, 06:07 PM | Dunno... that looked like he was going for an objective statement of fact there by the wording... :D As to the whole Death vs. The Dead thing... it's kind of an issue of semantics really, both are correct in a sense, and it's just something of a misunderstanding more than a malicious attempt to distort lore or arguing simply for the sake of arguement. Myrkul was the god of the Dead, and ruled over Bone Castle, but Bhaal was the god of Death and never ruled over Bone Castle. There, simple to solve. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-25-07, 04:34 AM | Dunno... that looked like he was going for an objective statement of fact there by the wording... :D As to the whole Death vs. The Dead thing... it's kind of an issue of semantics really, both are correct in a sense, and it's just something of a misunderstanding more than a malicious attempt to distort lore or arguing simply for the sake of arguement. Myrkul was the god of the Dead, and ruled over Bone Castle, but Bhaal was the god of Death and never ruled over Bone Castle. There, simple to solve. Yes Stigger! Think you for your maturity and clarity. Ranting and raving before reading seems to be a hazard of these message boards. A hazard I’m guilty of myself. I appreciate the fact that you took the time to read and understand what I was trying to say! I find it encouraging. It’s extremely encouraging considering the fact that we don’t always agree. Karsus grow up. |
| MaskedOne02-25-07, 10:41 AM | -His opinion is that you are a Grade 'A' Doofus. ;) An opinion that stated so directly, openly and publically earns the wondrous title of mod-bait. There is a thin little line between heavily implying your opinion of someone through the manner of your response and direct character attack. Brennon's opinions while mild do wander into the character attack side of it. Unlike opinions in general, opinions phrased as open character attack are not allowed. |
| Karsus the Mad02-25-07, 01:44 PM | Right there, you have two blunt statements that the Weave after Mystryl's death is new and recreated, not the same as the one from before it, which means as we've been saying this whole time that Mystyl's death meant no more Weave (this being the source of the negation of magic when it happened). Other sources also explain it that Mystryl killed herself to prevent further, and irrepairable damage to the Weave, with Mystra 'repairing' the damage when she came about to prevent such heights of magic. In that regard, it can also be seen as being the same Weave, with just some corrections. The details of exactly what happened, and how, are vague, and several tellings of the tale have variations within themselves. It's slightly erroneous to point at one specific text while ignoring others that contain relevant information. However, given that even Ed has specified that the Weave has been destroyed twice (with the death of Mystryl and the first Mystra), I'm assuming the most correct interpretation is the one you state:) |
| Khaelieth02-25-07, 01:58 PM | The Weave, 2 edition! |
| MarkusTay6302-25-07, 02:58 PM | I've stated this before, on other threads. I try to put everything, the cosmology, magic, etc, into computer analogies to better understand the relationships between things. For me, Magic is like a PC homecomputer. The Weave is just an operating system, like windows. Every once in a while it crashes and needs to be re-booted. Usually Mytra(l), being the IT guy, takes this opportunity to install a newer version, like Weave '95 or Weave XP, which is easier to use but takes most of the power out of the user's hands. Now, individual spells are like programs that run on the OS (Weave), and some times they can conflict with other programs (spells) and don't work right. Underneath it all, the magic (computer) still works, weather there is an operating system on it or not, but the Users (mages) can't access it. I supppose there might be some uber-powerful ancient magical-type (the Terraseer?) that knows how to scrip in assembler (pure magic), but those dinosaurs are pretty much extinct. Then you have the mac users (shadow weave). They use a totally different type of machine, but the results are the same. Their messages appear the same way on the boards and their spreadsheets still look just as good. Perhaps they are slightly better at a couple of things like video editting (think shadow spells), but all-in-all they accomplish the same thing in the end. Now spells/effects that disrupt arcane magic (dead and wild magic zones) are like viruses, and Shadow Weave spells are immune to that. You have to create a specific virus (rend Shadow weave) to disrupt that type. All that being said, I don't allow Macs in MY game. :P I guess LLKN thinks of Mystra as the monitor instead of the IT guy. The PC is still running but you can't access it at all. Fair enough, but if you can't access it at all then it works out the same as if it wasn't there, so whats the difference? If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one around to hear it, does it make a noise? probably... but so what. Its the same as if it didn't, either way. |
| BrennonGoldeye02-25-07, 03:32 PM | An opinion that stated so directly, openly and publically earns the wondrous title of mod-bait. There is a thin little line between heavily implying your opinion of someone through the manner of your response and direct character attack. Brennon's opinions while mild do wander into the character attack side of it. Unlike opinions in general, opinions phrased as open character attack are not allowed. I appologize. MaskedOne is correct. I used the word I did because it refers to one who is wellmeaning. One of my prestige classes just requires TrollSlaying at all oppurtunities. That's my last shot, I swear. SWLL.:bump: |
| Lord Karsus02-25-07, 04:48 PM | Karsus grow up. -You do realize that the ';)' Smiley represents something being said in a 'tongue-in-cheek' manner, right...? :rolleyes: |
| Stigger02-25-07, 06:50 PM | Only trouble with the computer analogy is Mystra is more than the IT guy, she's kinda the OS/OS programmer/IT rolled into one package, with a very solid support policy... but otherwise, yeah, I see where you're going with it. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-25-07, 07:55 PM | -You do realize that the ';)' Smiley represents something being said in a 'tongue-in-cheek' manner, right...? :rolleyes: Sorry pops missed the smiley! Here is some food for thoughtfrom Faiths & Avatars: "Again Selune gave of herself and tore the divine essence of magic from her body, flinging it it desperately at her sister in defense of life in the sphere and nearly killing herself of the spiritual injury it caused her. A just-born being of raw magic tore through Shar, bonded to some of her divine magical energy and ripping it free of her, and reforming behind her as the Goddess of Magic, known now as Mystra, but then as Mystryl, The Mystryl was composed of both light and dark magic, she favored her first mother Selune initially, allowing the silver goddess to win an uneasy truce with her more powerful, dark twin. Consumed by bitterness at her defeat, Shar vowed eternal revenge.”:cool: So magic did exist before Mystryl! Selune and Shar held the weave in the beginning. Mystryl held both Light and Dark magic. Weave and Shadow weave? So does this mean Shar snagged the Dark magic(Shadow Weave) back up after Mystryl’s death. Hell maybe she even instigated it the situation in some fashion. This is why I believe that the current Mystra is just the guardian of the weave. Just a theory that I use to explain the weave in my Champaign. You can disagree and call me names, but in the end it’s not really that important to the functioning of the game. Perhaps that’s why information about the weave is not forthcoming from the writers. We just don’t need to know. Let me know what you think!?:D :confused: |
| 42102-25-07, 09:15 PM | We just don’t need to know. Amen. I think there are many thing about Mystra and her chosen we do not know. As it is fitting for a goddess called the "lady of mysteries", Ed & Co have been wise enough to give us hints but there are still plenty of black spots that are open space for a creative DM. Basicaly, in game, all the characters needs to know is that magic works well enough to toast that silly goblin with his rotten sling, and they will have plenty of time to think about it between two pints when they will retire. Meanwhile just leave it to the sages. Not that trading opinions and theories on those boards is useless, but many gentle posters spend far to much time arguing on so little. Magic is an essential compoment of the FR which is logical since it is a fantasy setting, but since the odds are slim your character will ever play poker with Mystra or encounter a Chosen, trying to wrench out an absolute dogma out of an evoluting corpus of lore seems quite pointless. The answer often begin with: as far as we know. |
| Zevox02-26-07, 12:26 AM | Here is some food for thoughtfrom Faiths & Avatars: "Again Selune gave of herself and tore the divine essence of magic from her body, flinging it it desperately at her sister in defense of life in the sphere and nearly killing herself of the spiritual injury it caused her. A just-born being of raw magic tore through Shar, bonded to some of her divine magical energy and ripping it free of her, and reforming behind her as the Goddess of Magic, known now as Mystra, but then as Mystryl, The Mystryl was composed of both light and dark magic, she favored her first mother Selune initially, allowing the silver goddess to win an uneasy truce with her more powerful, dark twin. Consumed by bitterness at her defeat, Shar vowed eternal revenge.”:cool: So magic did exist before Mystryl! Um, pardon, but you're making a mistake here. You're equating magic to the Weave, which isn't true. The Weave is the source of magic on the Prime and in Mystra's divine realm of Dweomerheart. Thats it. The Gods, like Selûne and Shar, don't and never have required it to perform magic. Even simply on other planes it doesn't exist and isn't required for magic to operate. The fact that the Gods had their powers before Mystra was around doesn't mean the Weave existed then, since their powers aren't dependent on it. Zevox |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-26-07, 01:45 AM | Um, pardon, but you're making a mistake here. You're equating magic to the Weave, which isn't true. The Weave is the source of magic on the Prime and in Mystra's divine realm of Dweomerheart. Thats it. The Gods, like Selûne and Shar, don't and never have required it to perform magic. Even simply on other planes it doesn't exist and isn't required for magic to operate. The fact that the Gods had their powers before Mystra was around doesn't mean the Weave existed then, since their powers aren't dependent on it. Zevox However Mystra did deny Cyric access to the weave! So…. |
| Lord Karsus02-26-07, 01:57 AM | However Mystra did deny Cyric access to the weave! So…. -Though that is a good point, Zevox is right. I think what you pointed out was a little inconsistency, for the sake of the story. We could explain it by saying that Mystra was just bluffing. Why not? -Anyway, magic does "work" on other planes, during the Time of Troubles. This is demonstrated, in one instance, in the For Duty & Deity adventure. Waukeen seeks passage to the Outer Planes, so that she can then return to her own divine realm. Ao's decree that the deities, including Mystra, no longer have their powers, does not effect the Outer Planes. Thus, since magic there is not disrupted, we have to assume that (at least) Mystra is not tied to the magic of the Outer Planes. Made sense? |
| Zevox02-26-07, 02:02 AM | However Mystra did deny Cyric access to the weave! So…. As LK said, thats an inconsistency in that novel. Perhaps the most complained about aspect of it, actually (I know of a few posters who outright hate that novel because of it). Mystra could deny an avatar or the God access to the Weave while they were on the Prime or in Dweomerheart, but it wouldn't bother them much since their divine powers aren't reliant on it. Those with wizardly powers would be affected, but only their wizardly powers would be. And she has no power over them whatsoever anywhere else. In addition to what Karsus said, note that even in the Avatar series Myrkul's magic worked perfectly on the Astral Plane even while magic is malfunctioning on the Prime due to the damage to the Weave. Zevox |
| Stigger02-26-07, 02:44 AM | I usually took that to mean that she denied Cyric the ability to grant spells to his clerics more than anything actually affecting his ability to work divine magic. Never occurred to me that she could even possibly hit him with a defacto stripping of his divinity... |
| Lord Karsus02-26-07, 12:14 PM | I usually took that to mean that she denied Cyric the ability to grant spells to his clerics more than anything actually affecting his ability to work divine magic. Never occurred to me that she could even possibly hit him with a defacto stripping of his divinity... -That's how I always interpreted it. When you think about it, deities are "inherently magical" entities, so Mystra really can't deny magic to Cyric, since it would be akin to causing him to cease to exist, or something to that effect. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-26-07, 04:29 PM | Well I think you are interpreting it wrong. It states specifically in Faiths and Pantheons that Mystra can “deny any creature, mortal or divine, the ability to access the weave.” If you read Prince of Lies she could deny Cyric’s personal access to the Weave, but not his worshipers! She would have to block each and every worshiper individually. Cyric was still divine ad could grant spells, but he could personally not work any magic on Toril or in the Bone Castle. Cyric had to ask Jergal to open a gate to the prime so he could speak with his high priest. Cyric was still the divine channel for his priest’s spells and hence still a God. This is Realms canon Karsus. I think Zevox is way off here. Mystra is the guardian of the weave and Shar has the same power to deny Shadow Weave. Zevox are you trying to say that divine magic comes from another source besides the weave? I see no inconsistency between the Novel and the rules canon presented in Faiths and Pantheons. Or the what I believe Mystra is. |
| Zevox02-26-07, 05:02 PM | Well I think you are interpreting it wrong. It states specifically in Faiths and Pantheons that Mystra can “deny any creature, mortal or divine, the ability to access the weave.” Aye, but the Weave only exists on the Prime and in Dweomerheart. Thats long-standing lore (some 2e buff point out where its from, will ya? My memory is horrid on non-3e books). If you read Prince of Lies she could deny Cyric’s personal access to the Weave, but not his worshipers! She would have to block each and every worshiper individually. Cyric was still divine ad could grant spells, but he could personally not work any magic on Toril or in the Bone Castle. And theres the inconsistency - since the Weave doesn't exist on the Fugue, Cyric shouldn't have been bothered by this anywhere but the Prime and Dweomerheart. Mystra is the guardian of the weave and Shar has the same power to deny Shadow Weave. For Shar and the Shadow Weave, the only source I know of that says anything about it, the FRCS, does say she can deny it to any mortal at least, though it gives no indication about other entities. But then again, this is also one of the sources which says she created the Shadow Weave, and other sources contradict that, so take that with a grain of salt. As for Mystra, I've addressed that on other threads - like all other Faerûnian deities with a portfolio that isn't an abstract concept, Mystra is her portfolio, the Weave; just as Kelemvor is Death, Selûne is the Moon, Shar is the Void, etc etc. Zevox are you trying to say that divine magic comes from another source besides the weave? Divine Magic as in the magic used by Clerics and the like? In a certain sense you could say that (though it wasn't my point) - they still draw on the Weave for power, certainly, but they do originate in being granted to the mortal's mind by their God. Divine Magic as in the innate powers of the Gods? Definitely - they don't need any source for that beyond mortal worship and whatever other miscellaneous ways they use to gain power themselves. They're inherent powers of the divinities themselves, not tied to some external power source any more so than the deity is. Zevox |
| Lord Karsus02-26-07, 05:39 PM | ...though it gives no indication about other entities. -There are no other divine entities, that we know of, that use the Shadow Weave, and not the Weave. |
| Karsus the Mad02-26-07, 07:31 PM | Anyway, magic does "work" on other planes, during the Time of Troubles Of course it does. Why else would she risk all to get back to the outerplanes? To prevent us puny mortals from figuring out she's not all that hot with magic:) In FR, Mystra is hot with Toril and the material plane, and Dweomerheart. Anything else, pfft on her. She's an outsider, easily delt with by Epic magic (which is available, and assumably achievable, by any spellcaster of 21st level). Duh. What can be gained from being a deity of magic (with perhaps the most restricted portfolio abilities ever) when whatever magic you can think of is represented on some other plane? Or even better, use a planes own magic to create your own plane. Wow! It's a 9th level spell (that Mystra has no power over while on any Weave-Less plane, which is any plane other than the material and dweomerheart: and I need my chinese chicken dinner)....Anyhoo, I think my point stands. Mystra may only be considered when she has divine dominion to do so and anywhere else I think mages are smart enough to realize she equals nothing. End Rant. Just needed to vent:P |
| BrennonGoldeye02-26-07, 08:10 PM | Zevox are you trying to say that divine magic comes from another source besides the weave? Divine Magic as in the magic used by Clerics and the like? In a certain sense you could say that (though it wasn't my point) - they still draw on the Weave for power, certainly, but they do originate in being granted to the mortal's mind by their God. This makes a great point. :D The ability to shape divine magic is seperate from the ability to call upon divine magic. You need the Diety to grant you the access. They take power from your praise and send you a bit back at a variable rate. Think of it as interest on your account at The Eternal Bank of insert Diety here. -That's how I always interpreted it. When you think about it, deities are "inherently magical" entities, so Mystra really can't deny magic to Cyric, since it would be akin to causing him to cease to exist, or something to that effect. I've always explained it to inquisitive players that She simply removed His ability to manifest magical effects in Her presence at Cynosure. Think of it as a targeted Divine Antimagic. If there is One of the pantheon who could do it, it would be Her. It helps the story go smoother.;) |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-26-07, 08:45 PM | Well regardless of what everyone believes. The canon says otherwise. Mystra can deny deities the ability to work magic and in the realms. This is strange, because I’m usually the one arguing against canon. However in this case the canon makes sense. If a deity had a presence in another prime material plane then the bane would not affect said deity on their home plane. Cyric however is a Aber-Toril based deity. He has no other source of magic to draw on but Mystra’s weave. Sure this would prevent him from manifesting avatars and working divine and arcane magic. The avatars are after all magical constructs in a sense. It would not stop him from granting his clerics their spells as only AO can do that. I fail to see what the inconsistency is here? Oh and if you pick up Faiths and Pantheons you will read that both Mystra and Shar can deny both mortals and deities access to their respective Weave’s. Zevox the argument I was trying to make with the quote from Faiths & Avatars was that only Mystryl was the weave. As evident by her creation story. Mystryl was composed of both light and dark magic in that creation story. Scroll back up and read it again. All of her predecessors are simply the current guardians and inextricably tied to the weave as part of their duties. |
| Zevox02-26-07, 09:07 PM | I fail to see what the inconsistency is here? Its inconsistent because previously-existing lore indicates that what they had Mystra do in that novel is impossible. Thats why. Oh and if you pick up Faiths and Pantheons you will read that both Mystra and Shar can deny both mortals and deities access to their respective Weave’s. Aye, which as I said by previously-existing lore shouldn't bother them in the least anywhere but the Prime or Dweomerheart. I'm not arguing she can't cut them off from the Weave, I'm saying that the extent to which it is portrayed as affecting Cyric in Prince of Lies (essentially stripping him of every vaguely-magical power he had) is very inconsistent with what pre-existing lore indicates it should do. Oh, and a little side note, if you go by Faiths & Pantheons as the source for the deities can do, Mystra cannot use epic magic. I don't know about you, but thats pretty blatant evidence to me that the stats there are quite far from an accurate be-all-end-all description of the deities and their abilities. Zevox the argument I was trying to make with the quote from Faiths & Avatars was that only Mystryl was the weave. As evident by her creation story. Mystryl was composed of both light and dark magic in that creation story. Scroll back up and read it again. All of her predecessors are simply the current guardians and inextricably tied to the weave as part of their duties. Aye, I've heard you say this over and over again - trust me, its not hard to understand. I've pointed out over and over again that this is contrary to cannon, since every Faerûnian Deity holding a portfolio that isn't an abstract has been linked to it in such a way, as evidenced by Selûne being the Moon, Cyric's loss of Death causing it to cease to exist for a time even though he is at least the third God to hold that portfolio, and other such things. Karsus the Mad even pointed out that Ed himself has directly answered questions about this and said that Mystryl's successors are every bit the incarnation of the Weave she was. You may prefer it that way, but as far the actual, cannon Realms are concerned, thats not the way it is. Zevox |
| Karsus the Mad02-26-07, 10:06 PM | If you read Magic of Faerun (I think that's the one....), Mystra can't deny deities the ability to grant spells unless she also denies all the deity's followers from recieving those spells (technically, she can't deny deities to grant spells, but indirectly by denying followers access to the Weave she effectively achieves the result). Basically, while she can deny a deity magic while in Realmspace, that doesn't prevent any clerics of that deity from accessing magic, unless Mystra specifically denies them also. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-27-07, 12:22 AM | We covered all that above KTM. No one was refuting that. You are correct Zevox in Faiths & Pantheons it does not mention whether Mystra can use Epic Magic or not. There is a simple explanation for this. Faiths & Pantheons was printed before the Epic levels hand book. Her epic abilities were not included because rules for Epic spell casting did not exist yet. However I can assure you that any future game accessories will have her epic abilities posted with her ability to Deny the Weave. So there is no inconsistency that I can see. I’m still waiting for you to make a good case for this inconsistency. Sorry but its Cannon Zevox. |
| Stigger02-27-07, 12:51 AM | Regardless of the mechanics of how she does it, she can still do it... either with a very simple explanation or with a very complicated explanation. Personally I tend towards simple explanations myself, in that if she can deny the weave to someone, including a deity, then she could likely disrupt a deities ability to grant spells. I say this for a couple of reasons. As a matter of course, a divine spellcaster in the realms requires a deity in order to cast a spell, and if the deity is not there, neither are the spells they grant. So by that logic, it is reasonable I think to follow that the divine casters in and of themselves are not capable of casting spells, but are simply of acting as a conduit for divine power, and that the spells are actually powered by the deity, not the divine caster. The function of level of the divine caster in casting power (ie caster level) is simply a measure of how much of that divine power they can channel at any given time, and how often they can do so. So, if we accept that as a true scenario, then cutting off the deity from the weave would indeed cut off their divine caster followers from receiving spells since the deity themselves cannot cast it in the first place. Not canon perhaps, but going by page 4 of Magic of Faerun, it explicitly states that "shamans and clerics drew their magic directly from deities.", so I think an arguement could be made that she can indeed cut off the spells a deity grants. Perhaps she's not allowed to, but depending on how you interpret that, it doesn't necessarily mean that she can't. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-27-07, 01:09 AM | Regardless of the mechanics of how she does it, she can still do it... either with a very simple explanation or with a very complicated explanation. Personally I tend towards simple explanations myself, in that if she can deny the weave to someone, including a deity, then she could likely disrupt a deities ability to grant spells. I say this for a couple of reasons. As a matter of course, a divine spellcaster in the realms requires a deity in order to cast a spell, and if the deity is not there, neither are the spells they grant. So by that logic, it is reasonable I think to follow that the divine casters in and of themselves are not capable of casting spells, but are simply of acting as a conduit for divine power, and that the spells are actually powered by the deity, not the divine caster. The function of level of the divine caster in casting power (ie caster level) is simply a measure of how much of that divine power they can channel at any given time, and how often they can do so. So, if we accept that as a true scenario, then cutting off the deity from the weave would indeed cut off their divine caster followers from receiving spells since the deity themselves cannot cast it in the first place. Not canon perhaps, but going by page 4 of Magic of Faerun, it explicitly states that "shamans and clerics drew their magic directly from deities.", so I think an arguement could be made that she can indeed cut off the spells a deity grants. Perhaps she's not allowed to, but depending on how you interpret that, it doesn't necessarily mean that she can't. Stigger I think you misunderstood. I never argued that Mystra could deny a deity the ability to grant his followers their spells. I was arguing that she could deny the deity ITSELF the ability to cast spells. The ability to grant spells to ones worshipers can only be blocked by AO. Cyric had to ask Xeno Meromane to open a gate back to the Bone Castle in Prince of Lie because Cyric personally could not. However Xeno as his priest still had access to all his spells. The power to cast those spells came from Cyric to his priest even though Cyric was personally unable to cast spells. Do you see what I’m saying? |
| Stigger02-27-07, 01:45 AM | Never having read Prince of Lies.. (and from what I understand there was something of a disclaimer on the book as it was, and beyond that, we are talking about Cyric who certainly isn't above using trickery to manufacture sympathy for his position, and I mean, c'mon, deception and trickery is in his nature so he's probably not the best example of how things actually work one could hope for...) I could not comment on what happened in that book. I can however see how it could be interpreted in a few different ways. The way I see it, she can deny a deity the ability to cast spells, but that in no way affects any other divine abilities that are not directly related to spellcasting. So you could argue that granting spells falls under those innate divine abilities with a considerable measure of validity. However... that kinda depends on how you choose to interpret the Grant Spells ability. If you look at the grant spells ability as simply placing a 'blueprint' for a given spell, and the weave comes into play only when the caster rests or meditates, then no, I don't think she could block them from granting spells at all. If you look at it as the spells come as whole and pre-empowered by the weave, then I think she could block them, since presumably blocking the deity from the weave would prevent them from empowering the spells in the first place. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-27-07, 02:37 AM | I can agree to most of that. However I don’t believe that Mystra can block a deity from grating their worshipers spells. Under any circumstances. I do believe she can stop that individual deity from using magic without hampering said deity’s ability to grant spells. |
| Cloaked_in_Shadow02-27-07, 06:25 AM | Greetings all. I'm not sure what I think about Mystra being able to cut a deity off from granting their worshipers spells. If she could, do you think that would affect Shar at all ? I wouldn't think so, since she isn't reliant on Mystra's weave any longer. Could also be a big selling point for other evil deities and their worshipers to start tapping into the shadow weave. Going back to a earlier topic, Mystra IS the weave, she embodies it, as Karsus Avatar spell proved. Shar on the other hand has contol over her weave, but dosen't embody it, she uses it as a tool. The purpose of that tool being to weaken Mystra, and it seems to be working pretty well. Alot more spellcasters are taping into the shadow weave, even if they don't worship Shar, at least they arn't feeding Mystra. I wasen't unaware that Mystra had to give up some of her power, by order of Ao. That very well could be one reason why she has so many chosen, having one or two is almost a must in case she is killed and the weave fails again. Maybe this is the way things are unfolding, but i'm only speculating. This extra power that Mystra has been giving to her chosen, is now, or will be in the near future, the same amount of power that Shar, and her shadow weave have taken away from her. Mystra still has all of her chosen, so this power she is losing is weakening her. She will have to make a big choice, to allow all the chosen she still has to keep her/their extra power, weakening herself and everyone connected to her/the weave to be affected, or take that power back to balence out this power shift. She is NG so she will likely choose the latter , also it would be better to take some of the chosen's powers from them, than to have them outright fail when they need them most, or cut off other spellcasters power from them to have the chosen's work. She dosn't want to become so weak that she mite leave herself open to attack form Shar, or any of the other gods either. Shar is really forcing her hand, and its all because Mystra is protecting Selune. Shar most likely said to her sister long ago "i'm going to kill you, and anyone else that gets in my way". Anyway, just my take on it. |
| Stigger02-27-07, 07:34 AM | It has never been definitively stated that she had to give up power on Ao's orders. It is a theory, one of many, used to explain the existance of the Chosen. As to if she is the Weave or not, it says she is in few uncertain terms in Magic of Faerun, pgs 4 and 5. |
| ShadezofDis02-27-07, 11:18 AM | Just a short theory on Mystra's denial of magic to Cyric. Could it be that Mystra blocked access to the Weave and since Cyric is new to being a diety wasn't aware that he could bypass the Weave and dip directly into "Raw magic" so to speak? Basically, I really, really dislike the idea that divine magic and arcane magic both use the Weave. It might be canon, if so I'm pretty disapointed in that and won't use it :) Anyhow, my take on it is that Divine magic uses the diety as the "Weave" and the magic goes from; Pure magic to Diety to mortal casting the spell. Much in the way that psionics are supposed to bypass the weave, only instead of using "mind power" your using "diety power". Anyhow, just the beginings of some thoughts on it ;) |
| Alediran02-27-07, 11:58 AM | @Cloaked_in_Shadow: The power Mystra looses because a couple of Shadow Weave users aren't part of the main conduct is completely neglectable. There aren't too many Shadow Users, and not only Wizards/Sorcerers/Other Casters empower her, even the most weak Spell-Like ability, like the drow using their Faerie Light empower her. Now imagine how many creatures with Spell-Like abilities exist, and none of them use the Shadow Weave, therefore every time they use their Spell-Like abilities, they empower Mystra. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-27-07, 01:28 PM | Greetings all. I'm not sure what I think about Mystra being able to cut a deity off from granting their worshipers spells. If she could, do you think that would affect Shar at all ? I wouldn't think so, since she isn't reliant on Mystra's weave any longer. Could also be a big selling point for other evil deities and their worshipers to start tapping into the shadow weave. Going back to a earlier topic, Mystra IS the weave, she embodies it, as Karsus Avatar spell proved. Shar on the other hand has contol over her weave, but dosen't embody it, she uses it as a tool. The purpose of that tool being to weaken Mystra, and it seems to be working pretty well. Alot more spellcasters are taping into the shadow weave, even if they don't worship Shar, at least they arn't feeding Mystra. I wasen't unaware that Mystra had to give up some of her power, by order of Ao. That very well could be one reason why she has so many chosen, having one or two is almost a must in case she is killed and the weave fails again. Maybe this is the way things are unfolding, but i'm only speculating. This extra power that Mystra has been giving to her chosen, is now, or will be in the near future, the same amount of power that Shar, and her shadow weave have taken away from her. Mystra still has all of her chosen, so this power she is losing is weakening her. She will have to make a big choice, to allow all the chosen she still has to keep her/their extra power, weakening herself and everyone connected to her/the weave to be affected, or take that power back to balence out this power shift. She is NG so she will likely choose the latter , also it would be better to take some of the chosen's powers from them, than to have them outright fail when they need them most, or cut off other spellcasters power from them to have the chosen's work. She dosn't want to become so weak that she mite leave herself open to attack form Shar, or any of the other gods either. Shar is really forcing her hand, and its all because Mystra is protecting Selune. Shar most likely said to her sister long ago "i'm going to kill you, and anyone else that gets in my way". Anyway, just my take on it. Gerr! No one was arguing that Mystra could stop a deity from granting spells. She cannot. The only way she could do this would be to block each and every individual priest of said deity. It would be extremely taxing on her. Also I don’t see why divine magic would have a different source. It just has a different conduit. I mean hom many sources of magic does a world need?!?! The AO is scared of Mystra so he makes her have Chosen theory is pure Poppycock! Mystra has Chosen because Faerûn is a heavy magic environment. The chosen exist to handle all the magical catastrophes she doesn’t want to send an Avatar to fix. After all I’m sure her Avatars have more important things to do on the planes. AO is an Over-Power people! He need not fear any of his Gods as he can strip them of their divinity with a thought. Hell at the beginning of the Avatar crisis he forced them all to come to Cynosure. Then forced them all to their divine knees with a blast of power before he striped every one of them of their divinity. oh and Selune has proven throughout the ages that she is more then capably of protecting herself. |
| Zevox02-27-07, 03:14 PM | @ LLKN - I've said it time and time again - the reason Mystra's denial of Cyric in Prince of Lies is an inconsistency is because it should not have done anything to him away from the Prime Material Plane or Dweomerheart because the Weave does not exist anywhere but those two places by lore that existed before that novel. She can deny him the ability to use any mortal-style magic he may possess in those two places, but cannot do so anywhere else, and cannot block his inherent divine powers ("Salient Divine Abilities" I believe F&P calls them) at all, which could surely have done for him anything mortal magic could and more. The novel blatantly ignored this by making him appear nigh-powerless without the Weave regardless of where he was, to the point of relying on Jergal for help for even such a simple thing as plane traveling even in Bone Castle, which is on the Fugue, and therefore away from the Weave. Zevox |
| ShadezofDis02-27-07, 03:38 PM | Gerr! No one was arguing that Mystra could stop a deity from granting spells. She cannot. The only way she could do this would be to block each and every individual priest of said deity. It would be extremely taxing on her. Mystra being able to block an individual priest from casting devine spells is not supported by canon AFAIK, I'm not sure I've seen anything definitive on the subject. Also I don’t see why divine magic would have a different source. It just has a different conduit. I mean hom many sources of magic does a world need?!?! Arcane magic is accessed without divine aid (other than the fact that Mystra is the weave and arcane magic is a manipulation of that weave, but no spell caster MUST worship). Divine magic is accessed through a divine agent (a god, a demon lord, an elemental lord or some "godlike" being) and, unless the divine agent has a very good reason, you MUST be a worshiper of that divine agent. These two versions of magic are quite different, thus one could very well believe that they come from two different sources. It doesn't really matter to me either way. The AO is scared of Mystra so he makes her have Chosen theory is pure Poppycock! Mystra has Chosen because Faerûn is a heavy magic environment. The chosen exist to handle all the magical catastrophes she doesn’t want to send an Avatar to fix. That is just as much "pure Poppycock" as the "AO is scared of Mystra" theory. You have nothing, besides that it seems reasonable, to support that possition. |
| Stigger02-27-07, 04:53 PM | Think the best way to think of magic in the realms is that it's an AC (arcane caster) and DC (divine caster) situation. Different ways of accessing and such, but both still just electricity (magic) in the end. By the by, page 52 of F&P pretty clearly states that she can deny the weave to just about anything, and since divine spells run off the weave in most cases... she can indeed cut them off from spellcasting. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-28-07, 01:28 AM | Thanks Stigger! That’s what I have been trying to say for several posts now. That’s the way I have always thought of Magic. Different ways of access, but all Magic in the end. I mean isn’t that the way the canon explains it? I know what the canon said before the Prince of Lies and after the Prince of Lies. The ability to Deny Weave was a power previously unknown to mortals. It probably still is as only the Gods and a few of Cyric’s worshipers witness the event. If there was an inconsistency, which I don’t think there was, it no longer exists. :teach: And Shade, mortals can make all the assumptions they want about Mystra and her Chosen, but even the wisest sage doesn’t really know why she has so many Chosen. The reason that theory is Pure Poppycock is evident, since there are several Novels that demonstrate that AO is the supreme overlord of the Realms Gods.:king: He is explained in many an accessory as the God of the Gods. Ao is as far above the Gods as Gods are above mortals! |
| Cloaked_in_Shadow02-28-07, 02:04 AM | I agree that the affect of the few shadow weave users that are in the realms right now arn't a big threat to Mystras power over all. You do have to look at the shadow weave has only been revealed to some people of the realms in 1372. It is now 1375 DR ? As more find out about it, it will attract more users. In time, say one third of all spellcasters are using the shadow weave to access their spells, maybe a few more, or a few less for spell like abilities. One third is a noticeable amount. Mystra would still be very powerfull, and would still be a greater diety, but I could see her losing a few devine ranks because of it. LLKC, as far as Selune not needing allies for protection, you couldn't be more wrong. Shar is a Greater Goddess, Selune a Intermediate. Selnue's power waxs and wanes like the phases of the moon, while Shar's are constant, and if anything she has become even more powerfull over the corse of time. If Gods like Mystra, Sune, and Lathander didn't protect her, Shar would have all ready killed her long ago. |
| MaskedOne02-28-07, 02:20 AM | He is explained in many an accessory as the God of the Gods. Ao is as far above the Gods as Gods are above mortals! Which in Realmspace proves less than my opinion of Cyric's intellect. Realms mortals arrange silly stunts like binding Moander with High Magic, sticking walls up that block out pantheons, creating artifacts that can sever a divinities access to the plane temporarily (Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings had this trick if memory serves). Should I mention Karsus? Considering what mortals on Toril have done to divinities over the years, being as far beyond Toril's divinities as they are beyond mortals doesn't exactly mean a lot. Regardless, if AO was worried about Mystra, then he was concerned about a potential. The capacity to become an overpower does not guarantee it will happen within 10 millennia |
| MarkusTay6302-28-07, 03:14 AM | Hate to disagree with stigger, but I really hate the idea that Mystra can deny the gods access to their worshippers. To me, that makes her something more then a god, and lord knows we already have at least one too many of those running around. It may be canon that she can, and thats fine, but I'm not at all comfortable with it. I use a slightly altered system, but basically Wizards and Sorcerors both can spontaneously cast. Only priests have to memorize their spells ahead of time. So, for me, the priest ALREADY has the power within him. If Mystra bans him, then in my game he would still be able to cast whatever spells 'he has on him', he just won't be able to get new ones because he is being denied the magical energy that his god is sending him. However, I think of divine spells as 'miracles', granted by the gods. Its not really the same as arcane magic at all, at least not IMG. The gods DO NEED to transfer the power to their priests, and that means sending it via the Weave (think of it as the internet for magic). So the god still has his spells for you, but since your 'connection is down' you can't download ANY spells. How does that effect the game mechanics? Not much, except that if a god REALLY wanted to, he could show up in person and grant his priest spells directly by touching them. Now, not a whole lot of gods would be willing to do THAT, so it's neither here nor there. Mystra can 'major-league' inconvenience a god that way, but she couldn't stop him 100%. I like that way of looking at things a little better, because it puts Mystra's power in a more controlled perspective. The idea that she could cut the god himself off is just to all-powerful for me, so I leave at just cutting off the worshippers. Even that would effect a god over time, because when he stops granting spells he's going to lose followers and therefore lose power, so Mystra still has him/her by the balls without her having the powers of an over-god. I do feel that ANY god should be able to cut off another gods power when that god enters their domain (that kind of ends the whole 'who would win scenario'). Thats why gods have to catch each other away from their domains in order to truly harm them. Just my take of course, but it's just another thing that makes more sense to me, otherwise evil gods would ban together and 'raid' the domains of good gods and kill them all (or vice-versa). Just my opinions though, I know thats not how it works in RAW. :( |
| Stigger02-28-07, 03:57 AM | And you're entitled to them... and you aren't really disagreeing with me btw, you're more disagreeing with the current ruleset. ;) |
| ShadezofDis02-28-07, 10:55 AM | And Shade, mortals can make all the assumptions they want about Mystra and her Chosen, but even the wisest sage doesn’t really know why she has so many Chosen. The reason that theory is Pure Poppycock is evident, since there are several Novels that demonstrate that AO is the supreme overlord of the Realms Gods.:king: He is explained in many an accessory as the God of the Gods. Ao is as far above the Gods as Gods are above mortals! Then don't state your theory as fact :) I agree that the "AO is scared of Mystra" is likely pure poppycock, I'm just sayin that it's only as poppycock as any other theory because they are still in the realm of theory. (And it could be that AO IS scared of Mystra, only that he's scared of Mystra in the "several millennium" sense. Further, who knows what rules AO works under, since it's ALL speculation then we can't really rule anything out) |
| ShadezofDis02-28-07, 11:07 AM | And you're entitled to them... and you aren't really disagreeing with me btw, you're more disagreeing with the current ruleset. ;) Stigger, would you then say that Mystra could deny someone psionics? From what I've read on the boards it seems that someone thought it'd be a good idea to describe psionics as "magic that bypasses the weave". Gah, the technicallities of it are just stupid. How can a mage cast in planescape? If the weave doesn't exist anywhere but Toril (or, perhaps more properly Toril's Prime Material Plane, just in case there's more than one crystal sphere, sorry LLKN, couldn't help myself *g*) and Dweomerheart then it stands to reason that a mage who uses the weave to cast their spells (ie. all FR mages) would not be able to cast spells in an area that did not contain the weave (an exception to this could be the chosen, perhaps having part of the weave, ie. part of mystra, in themselves allows them cross planar access to the weave). Anyhow, my distaste of forcing various styles of power under one umbrella (arcane magic = divine magic = psionics??? wth) will guarentee that I never run it that way (and the chances of the issue actually coming up in any game I run is next to nil *g*). However, it's still fun to talk about and figure out ;D |
| MaskedOne02-28-07, 11:33 AM | The inherent magical energies of most worlds and planes are sufficiently similar that a Weave based mage will still be able to tap them for something. Dead zones in Toril are slightly different because accessing Toril's base magical power supply without some form of interface is more difficult than it is elsewhere. The Weave provides for Toril what many other worlds provide for themselves. Now there is a minor twist here. Other planes while compatible with wizardly practices at the most basic level do have their own odd features providing for some of the rules you can find about magic use in planescape. Further, a DM always has the option saying that certain spells and powers used on Toril don't work or don't work properly elsewhere. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-28-07, 03:25 PM | Shadez, I was stating it as fact because that’s what the current canon says. Ao is the over-power! Canon says the gods are not capably of harming AO. Also I’m going to have to agree with the Maskedone on magic. The magic of the planes is pure magic only hindered by the different aspects of magic on that particular plane. If we were to say that our weave using mages couldn’t use magic on the planes that would cramp the style of Kyrnn's mages as well. No moons no magic right!? Divine and Arcane its all from the same source just different conduits. Now psionics should not be considered magic despite what some books may say! It just takes away all the unique flavor of the psionics. I mean what bother with psionic if it’s the same as magic. Maskedone, those mortals are exceptionally powerful and all they have been able to do it cause the Gods minor inconveniences. Also those examples are extremely rare and are always paid back with divine retribution. I’m not saying the Gods don’t have the ability to annoy AO the way some powerful mortals annoy their Gods. What I’m saying is that the history shows us that when AO is annoyed the Gods pay big time. The same way a mortal pays when he defies his or her god. Mystra is at no risk of becoming an Overpower. I don’t see how anyone could believe she could. Becoming an Overpower has nothing to do with belief or worship. They just are and have always been. Clocked in Shadow, I think your wrong about Selune. If any deity wants to kill another deity they must expend a great amount of power. Shar could probably kill Selune but only at the cost of much of her divine power. This would leave her vulnerable to attacks from other Gods that would seize upon her weakness. And trust me they would! Which would spark a divine war. This is why Shar focuses on her priesthood and it maintains the balance. Selune has allies to allow her breathing room so she doesn’t have to focus all her divine efforts on thwarting Shar’s plots. It just makes life easier for her. Selune si fundamentally tied to the planets moon so in order to destroy Selune one must destroy the planets moon and that would be pure silliness. Even though Talos likes to dream about it.:D |
| Stigger02-28-07, 04:24 PM | Different setting, different weave, essentially the same thing with slight twists in the technicalities and mechanics, no matter what the setting, unless it's a dead magic sort of place. There's no inheirent difficulty with the magic of FR not working anywhere if you approach it from the point of view that the 'weave' permeates the entirety of the omniverse, adding in the caveat that there are actually an almost infinite number of 'weaves' present that form a larger 'tapestry' of magic. As to psionics, I seriously doubt that Mystra could do anything to affect it. I think that 'magic' that bypasses the weave is something of a misnomer really, it is the manifestation of the power of the self... in a lot of ways inexplainable and unknowable on anything but a personal level. What the canon view of it is has been left rather nebulous in a lot of respects, given how many options we have for how it interacts with magic and whatnot... but I don't see it as magic per se to be honest. It's something more... or something less depending on your opinion of it. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-28-07, 06:05 PM | I think your right and that’s pretty much the way I have always treated it. The weave is part of the general tapestry of magic in the multiverse. She has dominion over individuals that are inherently tied to Toril. Hence deny weave. I don’t know what to do about the Psionic problem. Besides ignore it for now. I have no player interested in being a Psionisit and I try to discourage any that become interested. |